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Wander
01-16-2018, 02:52 PM
DBR: Our defense has been terrible for years, it’s the huge obvious weakness of our team, and we desperately need to improve to at least an average defense if we’re going to win the national title.

Also DBR: Let’s vote for the leading scorer every game in our MOTM polls!

That’s only a SLIGHT exaggeration. The vast majority of the polls, Duke’s leading scorer wins. There are a two exceptions: if a reserve player scores a bunch, or if two players both score a lot of points (say, 25 points and 22 points), SOMETIMES the second guy wins. But the winner is always primarily based on scoring - sure, some of us individually vote differently, and sometimes the leading scorer happens to also be someone who played great defense or who had a lot of assists, but the overall picture is inescapable.

My challenge to DBR: next game, completely ignore points scored when choosing your MOTM. Obviously, offense is half the game, and that shouldn’t be a general rule for the entire season. But defense is what we all agree needs the most work, and there should be more than zero MOTM winners (poll winners, not just individual people voting) that are primarily decided by defense.

OldPhiKap
01-16-2018, 03:16 PM
Are you counting rebounds as defense?

I don’t disagree although with zone it is harder to pick one person as opposed to say a Matt Jones lockdown job in m2m. At least for me, given that I am still in disbelief that we play more than nominal zone.

CDu
01-16-2018, 03:36 PM
On a team that doesn't have an elite individual defender, and especially on a team that plays a lot of zone (which inherently reduces individual defensive contributions), it's really hard to point out a superlative defensive effort.

I do think that in years past, someone like Matt Jones gets underappreciated for some of his lockdown efforts. But this team doesn't have a Matt Jones on it.

Wander
01-16-2018, 03:46 PM
I don’t disagree although with zone it is harder to pick one person as opposed to say a Matt Jones lockdown job in m2m. At least for me, given that I am still in disbelief that we play more than nominal zone.



On a team that doesn't have an elite individual defender, and especially on a team that plays a lot of zone (which inherently reduces individual defensive contributions), it's really hard to point out a superlative defensive effort.


I agree with you guys that a zone makes it harder to identify good individual defensive play, but I don't think it eliminates it or even reduces it. For example, I think Grayson had an excellent defensive effort against Miami - one that we would have lost the game without - and it largely went unnoticed.

kAzE
01-16-2018, 04:00 PM
Well, as someone who voted for Wendell Carter as MOTM in the Miami game, I resent the stereotype that we always vote for the leading scorer. But seeing as how Gary got the vast majority of the votes, you're probably right . . .

I usually vote for the guy who in my opinion had the biggest positive impact on the game as a whole, regardless of the box score, even if a bench guy who never gets credit has a decent game. But at the same time, I don't begrudge anyone else for voting for who they thought was MOTM. What's the harm, right? It's not like that player has to go run the country for the next 4 years or anything :D

Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15
01-16-2018, 04:01 PM
Can anyone not on a mobile device consolidate MOTM results for the year? Maybe the last few years?

I promise sporkz!

Wander
01-16-2018, 04:04 PM
Can anyone not on a mobile device consolidate MOTM results for the year? Maybe the last few years?


This year Bagley has 7, Grayson has 4, Trent has 2, Carter has 1, Robinson has 1, and Bolden has 1. Two games we didn't vote on. 12 of the 16 winners were the leading scorer in the game.

Henderson
01-16-2018, 04:07 PM
With much respect to my brother Wander, I think DBR participants are capable of developing their own criteria for MOTM, which may vary from game to game and voter to voter. I don't think we need instructions on how to do it.

elvis14
01-16-2018, 04:13 PM
With much respect to my brother Wander, I think DBR participants are capable of developing their own criteria for MOTM, which may vary from game to game and voter to voter. I don't think we need instructions on how to do it.

I disagree. I think quite a few people need instructions on how to vote for the MOTM. For example, vote for the actual man of the match not the guy that did something cool that one time the guy or surprised everyone by stepping up and scoring 5 points when 0 were expected (meanwhile the guy that goes for 33/15/6 doesn't get a unanimous vote, etc).

Wander
01-16-2018, 04:21 PM
With much respect to my brother Wander, I think DBR participants are capable of developing their own criteria for MOTM, which may vary from game to game and voter to voter.

I agree criteria is loose and should be loose, and also we don't need to take these things super seriously in the first place. But my argument is that the criteria is not nearly as variable as you think. It's extremely formulaic. The formula is:

1. The leading scorer wins.
2. Unless someone who plays less than 15 minutes a game scores like, 8 points or more in non-garbage time.

And that formula will predict the MOTM in about 90% of cases. And the remaining 10% is still decided by offense.

BD80
01-16-2018, 04:25 PM
I think clutch baskets should be a criterion.

Of course, offensive efficiency might be important to some, such as scoring 30 points on 14 shots.

Some might find leading the team in minutes to have value, particularly when it is virtually EVERY minute of the game.

But then, this is the internet, full of capriciousness and whimsy.

CameronBornAndBred
01-16-2018, 04:37 PM
My challenge to DBR: next game, completely ignore points scored when choosing your MOTM. Obviously, offense is half the game, and that shouldn’t be a general rule for the entire season. But defense is what we all agree needs the most work, and there should be more than zero MOTM winners (poll winners, not just individual people voting) that are primarily decided by defense.

I'm curious. Was "defense" the reason you gave Grayson the MOTM last game? Because while he had 5 steals, he also had 4 turnovers. Coupled in with a less than par offensive output, that doesn't add up to a MOTM for me.

CDu
01-16-2018, 04:40 PM
I agree criteria is loose and should be loose, and also we don't need to take these things super seriously in the first place. But my argument is that the criteria is not nearly as variable as you think. It's extremely formulaic. The formula is:

1. The leading scorer wins.
2. Unless someone who plays less than 15 minutes a game scores like, 8 points or more in non-garbage time.

And that formula will predict the MOTM in about 90% of cases. And the remaining 10% is still decided by offense.

I think there are certainly games where this complaint has merit. I just don’t think you chose the right game to make this point.

Allen had 5 steals, which is fantastic. He also shot 1-6 from 3 and 2-9 overall, drawing no FTs. Trent shot 9-14 from the field and 6-9 from 3, while adding 6-8 FTs. And he wasn’t a slouch on defense, getting a block. Allen had 4 boards, 3 assists, 4 turnovers. Trent had 5, 1, and 4. And in the clutch stretch of the game, Trent hit big shot after big shot.

So while I would agree that Allen had an underrated performance, I don’t think it at all unreasonable or uneducated to suggest he was the better overall performer in that game.

Heck, I don't even think Allen was the best defensive performer on the team. I'd give that to Wendell Carter, with his 12 defensive rebounds, 2 steals, and 4 blocks (including arguably the game-sealing block on Huell). If anyone deserved the not-best-scorer-MOTM, I think it would be Carter.

kAzE
01-16-2018, 04:46 PM
I think many regular posters on DBR will take an analytical approach to MOTM, while more casual fans will go by the box score, or just with personal preference. Neither way is incorrect, but I like to look at who certain posters vote for. I always seem to end up voting the same way as certain DBR-ers, even when that player isn't the majority voter-getter :p

budwom
01-16-2018, 04:46 PM
Well, as someone who voted for Wendell Carter as MOTM in the Miami game, I resent the stereotype that we always vote for the leading scorer. But seeing as how Gary got the vast majority of the votes, you're probably right . . .

I usually vote for the guy who in my opinion had the biggest positive impact on the game as a whole, regardless of the box score, even if a bench guy who never gets credit has a decent game. But at the same time, I don't begrudge anyone else for voting for who they thought was MOTM. What's the harm, right? It's not like that player has to go run the country for the next 4 years or anything :D

For years I loved watching the Montreal Canadians (when they were subperb) and on every broadcast the CBC had, postgame, Les Trois Etoiles (three stars) which allowed them to spread the
praise a bit...one of their nuanced practices was often naming the opposing goalie as the third star, implying that if he hadn't played so heroically, the heroic Canadiens would have scored 12 goals.
So we could always name, let's say, Roy Williams as our third star..

Wander
01-16-2018, 05:06 PM
I'm curious. Was "defense" the reason you gave Grayson the MOTM last game? Because while he had 5 steals, he also had 4 turnovers. Coupled in with a less than par offensive output, that doesn't add up to a MOTM for me.

It is. A couple games ago I decided I was mostly going to ignore offense for a few MOTM votes - we already had the #1 offense in the country, and defense is what we needed to improve. Grayson's defense was excellent last night - at least 4 of his steals (and maybe all 5, I can't remember one of them) were really great effort plays, and I thought his defense beyond the steals was good too. I agree the turnovers were bad, but even outside of my looking for defense theme, everyone had lots of turnovers. So for the sake of voting, turnovers were sort of a wash.



I think there are certainly games where this complaint has merit. I just don’t think you chose the right game to make this point.

Allen had 5 steals, which is fantastic. He also shot 1-6 from 3 and 2-9 overall, drawing no FTs. Trent shot 9-14 from the field and 6-9 from 3, while adding 6-8 FTs. And he wasn’t a slouch on defense, getting a block. Allen had 4 boards, 3 assists, 4 turnovers. Trent had 5, 1, and 4. And in the clutch stretch of the game, Trent hit big shot after big shot.

So while I would agree that Allen had an underrated performance, I don’t think it at all unreasonable or uneducated to suggest he was the better overall performer in that game.

Heck, I don't even think Allen was the best defensive performer on the team. I'd give that to Wendell Carter, with his 12 defensive rebounds, 2 steals, and 4 blocks (including arguably the game-sealing block on Huell). If anyone deserved the not-best-scorer-MOTM, I think it would be Carter.


I'm not trying to make a point about the Miami game specifically, or yell at any individual. I agree Carter and Trent are completely reasonable picks for the Miami game. I'm just looking at the overall trend of who wins the polls and saying that it's sort of lame that EVERY winner is basically decided by scoring.

CDu
01-16-2018, 05:12 PM
It is. A couple games ago I decided I was mostly going to ignore offense for a few MOTM votes - we already had the #1 offense in the country, and defense is what we needed to improve. Grayson's defense was excellent last night - at least 4 of his steals (and maybe all 5, I can't remember one of them) were really great effort plays, and I thought his defense beyond the steals was good too. I agree the turnovers were bad, but even outside of my looking for defense theme, everyone had lots of turnovers. So for the sake of voting, turnovers were sort of a wash.

I find it weird, though. I don't think Allen was even the most impactful defender last night. He had the most "wow" plays defensively, but overall I would argue that Carter was better defensively. Not that Allen played poorly defensively, but I think Carter's strength on the defensive glass and his presence in the lane were more impressive overall. Allen certainly had some unbelievable moments here and there, as almost all of his steals were "loud" ones.

And this gets at another reason why it tends to go to the best scorer: it's easy to spot good scoring, it's harder to spot good defense.

brevity
01-16-2018, 06:58 PM
Somewhat forgotten in this is the voter, and what he or she brings to the poll.

The following guidelines are personal to me and probably meaningless to others:

1. I don’t vote for a MOTM unless I watched the entire game (or as much as was broadcast or clearly streamed).

2. I may monitor the box score during the game, but I ignore it after.

3. I grew up reading newspapers that often listed an unsung player, someone who was not the MVP but deserved to be singled out, even in a losing effort. That idea has stuck with me, and I may sometimes feel compelled to do the same if I felt the supporting contribution was critical. The MVP was very good, but he is going to receive plenty of votes, and doesn’t need mine.

I am disappointed when it comes to many things, but DBR poll results for MOTM is not one of them. Having a unanimous selection is a fine but weird* goal, and I wouldn’t disrupt that just for the sake of being contrarian, but generally I prefer the votes spread out among multiple players.

* Do we really want one player’s performance to be that much better than his teammates? Just curious.

subzero02
01-16-2018, 07:28 PM
This year Bagley has 7, Grayson has 4, Trent has 2, Carter has 1, Robinson has 1, and Bolden has 1. Two games we didn't vote on. 12 of the 16 winners were the leading scorer in the game.

Carter deserves more press. He's got such a great post game and his aggression really gives our team a bit of a nasty edge. He just needs to avoid silly fouls. Without him serving as enforcer in the paint, there's no way we win that Michigan State game.

lotusland
01-16-2018, 07:38 PM
I vote we all just use our discretion about who is MOTM. Otherwise, if everyone used the same strict criteria we’d all arrive at the same MOTM and there’d be no point in voting. A Mod could just tell us who the MOTM is according to the prescribed criteria instead. I’m pretty sure I voted for the walk-on (Buckmire?) when he scored. I just felt generous and, after all, it’s my vote.

OldPhiKap
01-16-2018, 08:21 PM
I vote we all just use our discretion about who is MOTM. Otherwise, if everyone used the same strict criteria we’d all arrive at the same MOTM and there’d be no point in voting. A Mod could just tell us who the MOTM is according to the prescribed criteria instead. I’m pretty sure I voted for the walk-on (Buckmire?) when he scored. I just felt generous and, after all, it’s my vote.

I don’t think the OP was suggesting otherwise, but rather lamenting that the votes skew towards offensive feats and not defensive ones. Fair point IMHO. Although exceptional defense has not been the hallmark of many spans this season so far.

Having said that, GTrent Jr. credited defense as the key to the comeback last night.

devildeac
01-16-2018, 08:26 PM
I don’t think the OP was suggesting otherwise, but rather lamenting that the votes skew towards offensive feats and not defensive ones. Fair point IMHO. Although exceptional defense has not been the hallmark of many spans this season so far.

Having said that, GTrent Jr. credited defense as the key to the comeback last night.

Must mean Carter got his vote for MOTM. ;):rolleyes:

Acymetric
01-16-2018, 08:59 PM
I don’t think the OP was suggesting otherwise, but rather lamenting that the votes skew towards offensive feats and not defensive ones. Fair point IMHO. Although exceptional defense has not been the hallmark of many spans this season so far.

Having said that, GTrent Jr. credited defense as the key to the comeback last night.

This is true of virtually every performance related sports award that unless the award is designed specifically for defense, at every level in every sport. Not sure it should surprise anyone that it applies to our MOTM voting as well, and even though there is a lot of truth to "defense wins championships" ultimately the primary goal in most sports is to score points, with opponents allowed to varying degrees to attempt to prevent it.

Troublemaker
01-16-2018, 09:19 PM
This needs to be said. Gary Trent Jr played a really good defensive game against Miami as well, and his MOTM was well-deserved (although I understand the votes for Wendell, too). Gary is probably our best "assignment completer" on defense, both at the point of attack and in team defense. He rarely misses rotations and when on-ball, he sends his man the direction we want him to be sent.

In this particular game, I think he took it personally the matchup against fellow OAD 2-guard candidate Lonnie Walker, and Gary really dominated that matchup. Walker got some threes in transition off Duke's dumb turnovers, but otherwise, Gary outscored him, outhustled him, and outdefended him.

moonpie23
01-16-2018, 09:28 PM
sometimes, the criteria floats....if we get down in a game, and we're playing poorly, i'm fond of voting for the guy that sparked a comeback.

exp: Grayson Allen was the MOTM for the 2015 title game. Yes, Tyus Stones SEALED it, but without those incredible plays from GA, i think we come up short...

this might be what wander is addressing...

Newton_14
01-16-2018, 10:31 PM
Somewhat forgotten in this is the voter, and what he or she brings to the poll.

The following guidelines are personal to me and probably meaningless to others:

1. I don’t vote for a MOTM unless I watched the entire game (or as much as was broadcast or clearly streamed).

2. I may monitor the box score during the game, but I ignore it after.

3. I grew up reading newspapers that often listed an unsung player, someone who was not the MVP but deserved to be singled out, even in a losing effort. That idea has stuck with me, and I may sometimes feel compelled to do the same if I felt the supporting contribution was critical. The MVP was very good, but he is going to receive plenty of votes, and doesn’t need mine.

I am disappointed when it comes to many things, but DBR poll results for MOTM is not one of them. Having a unanimous selection is a fine but weird* goal, and I wouldn’t disrupt that just for the sake of being contrarian, but generally I prefer the votes spread out among multiple players.

* Do we really want one player’s performance to be that much better than his teammates? Just curious.

In addition, i saw more than a couple posts in the post game thread last night saying we did not get any "production" from our bench. I beg to differ. There is far more to "production" than stats. At a bare minimum giving the starters critical rest (especially with the flu running rampant through the team), and not hurting the team in the process. I personally feel Jack White has been very solid off the bench in these past 3 games, and really of the subs played in those 3 games, I would say only Vrank didn't provide positive minutes. (4 games counting NC State where Vrank struggled, however he has provided positive minutes in other games this season and last. )

Our bench helped us last night, which in part, in my humble opinion was why the starters were so effective when they came back in for the stretch run. K is using the bench unlike I have seen since the mid to late 80's. I for one hope someone has convinced him certain players are more productive playing 28 minutes than 35-36. Whatever the reasoning, I hope the current trend continues.

But back to Wander's point, sometimes the MOTM isn't the leading scorer... it is however an easy trap to fall prey to though..

Ggallagher
01-16-2018, 10:37 PM
Well it turns out that I did sort of a variation of this several years back. I just thought it would be interesting to attempt to be at least somewhat objective in figuring out who to vote for. I wanted to include defensive contributions; I wanted to avoid last second miracle shots; and I wanted to avoid numbers on the stat sheet influencing my decision.

So just for the fun of it I built a spreadsheet that I completed as each game progressed. On every possession (offensive and defensive) I tried to pick out the player(s) that made a difference - either positive or negative.

On the positive side, a player got a point for hustle, grabbing tough rebounds, making back to back free throws, blocks, "good" assists, taking charges, scoring on tougher shots, and several other factors.

On the negative side, a player lost points for bad fouls, missed chippies, missing both free throws on two shot penalties, turnovers, etc. -- or anything else I just deemed as stupid.

While the idea was to make the rating as objective as possible, there was at least some subjectivity in what I did. But at least I did have "rules" that I tried to follow. Because I was including defensive possessions and because there was no avenue for including last second miracle shots, or wonderful three minute contributions from bench players, my vote did sometimes vary from the MOTM winner for the game. One of the examples that demonstrated to me how different the results could be was a game where Nolan Smith won handily for his heroics towards the end of the second half of a game - don't recall which one at the moment.

But in MY calculation, he wasn't even close to the MOTM. Mainly because during the first half of the game he had accumulated a very ugly pile of negative points for some really sloppy play. So while most of the voters were impressed by Smitty's heroic contribution to win the game for us, my reaction was, "Well if he hadn't played such a train wreck of a first half, we wouldn't have needed the heroics at all". Oh, and I didn't post that quote - didn't want to spoil all the good feeling for him.

It was a neat experiment to do for a few years (I haven't done it this year), and it did make me think differently about each player's contribution. But I don't want to think that hard during games anymore. So I just watch and vote with my gut :)