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JBDuke
01-15-2018, 08:57 PM
Put your post-game thoughts here.

kAzE
01-15-2018, 08:58 PM
That went from certain defeat to comfortable win extremely quickly

CameronDuke
01-15-2018, 08:58 PM
19 turnovers and 10-21 from the free throw line and this team still scored 83 and won. Let that sink in. How explosive is this offense?

Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15
01-15-2018, 08:59 PM
One of the ugliest wins I have seen for Duke in a long time, but a road win against a top 25 team all the same. Lots to improve on.

On another note, I am disgusted by the in-game thread today. So disappointing. Let's support this young team and try to stay positive.

gocanes0506
01-15-2018, 08:59 PM
I just have to remind myself how hard freshmen are to watch when shots are falling. Great game by Trent Jr. the guys skill level took over for the last 10 minutes. Big time 18-0 run

WakeDevil
01-15-2018, 08:59 PM
They were losing by ten.

I turned off the TV.

They won.

That is all.

ETA: The lead moved to 13 before the move took effect.

WVDUKEFAN
01-15-2018, 08:59 PM
I don't want to do it like this every game.

Les Grossman
01-15-2018, 08:59 PM
from Trent.
whew!

MartyClark
01-15-2018, 08:59 PM
Heck of a win. The game was downright ugly at times. Trent came up big.

I wish we could get Grayson back on track offensively.

carteretdevil
01-15-2018, 08:59 PM
Would love to understand what happened to allow the guys to realize that they were the better team and to execute as such. Tremendous last 1/4 of the game.

downeastdad
01-15-2018, 09:00 PM
19 turnovers and 10-21 from the free throw line and this team still scored 83 and won. Let that sink in. How explosive is this offense?

Not sure we can expect to play like this for 30-some minutes and still win by 8 every night.

Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15
01-15-2018, 09:00 PM
Would love to understand what happened to allow the guys to realize that they were the better team and to execute as such. Tremendous last 1/4 of the game.

We outscored them by twenty in the final ten or so. Not too shabby.

Channing
01-15-2018, 09:01 PM
#gladIwasntinchattonight

jipops
01-15-2018, 09:01 PM
Program win.

Yea, I thought we were done. Miami was just dominating and really looked like the better team, by a wide margin.

But what a turnaround. Huge props to Carter and Trent on both ends of the floor.

Might this be a turning point in the season?

91devil
01-15-2018, 09:02 PM
Wendell Carter steadies this team. I bet his + / - for this game is OFF THE CHART.

Les Grossman
01-15-2018, 09:02 PM
this bunch struggles with the mtm.
But they are a different team in the zone
Embrace the Z

jipops
01-15-2018, 09:03 PM
Heck of a win. The game was downright ugly at times. Trent came up big.

I wish we could get Grayson back on track offensively.

Classic slump for Grayson. He'll get out of it.

Actually speaks volumes that we won with him being so cold.

And really, it was his steal and dunk that started the momentum shift.

karmacoma
01-15-2018, 09:03 PM
Great road win, and great opportunity to learn from mistakes that could have been, but weren't, disastrous, due primarily to Gary's offensive outburst. The coaching staff will have lots of material for film study, practice, and motivation.

JD for Three!
01-15-2018, 09:03 PM
Wow! Scrappy game. We played through a lot of no calls, but we played like men.
My hat is off to Carter who was the man when Bagley went out. Grayson had another offf night shooting, but made at least two of the biggest plays in the game. Mr. Trent, love to see you get it tonight.
Everyone should be proud. When they had to t on their big boy pants, they clearly did so.
Congrats to all of them

kAzE
01-15-2018, 09:03 PM
I donít know why we even try to play m2m anymore. Just practice zone and perfect it at this point.

thedukelamere
01-15-2018, 09:03 PM
I think the boys grew up a lot tonight. Stunning win, plus now they have 4 days to dissect the film and shore things up. Those turnovers...

Just looked at the box score, and that was a LOUD 3 assists from Mr. Allen. His 2nd slip assist of the night kept us within striking distance and then we were the thoroughbred team down the stretch.

Maybe Gary needs to get roughed up in the locker room before every game... He plays out of his mind when heís sick and/or injured.

InSpades
01-15-2018, 09:04 PM
Turned it off when the lead hit 13. Turned it back on and Bagley was hitting his free throw to cut it to 4.

You're all welcome!

wavedukefan70s
01-15-2018, 09:04 PM
Zone and more carter.then more zone.

MCFinARL
01-15-2018, 09:04 PM
I would say that that was one of the weirdest wins I have ever seen, except that kind of turnaround seems to be SOP for this team. Makes being a fan pretty stressful--but there is never a dull moment.

flyingdutchdevil
01-15-2018, 09:05 PM
#gladIwasntinchattonight

You have to take chat with a grain of salt. Okay, a truck load of salt. Brev has some fantastic one-liners, the emotional roller coaster is in full effect, and feuds between Duke fans really heat up.

Chat gets horrible when the attacks against players come up. I feel terrible for Duval...

Duval - if youíre reading this, remember that Iím youíre #1 fan

DukeDevil
01-15-2018, 09:06 PM
My buddy works in sports/TV broadcasting and was at the game. Per him, Shane was there and had the quote of the game:

"If you squint...you might have seen us play a little defense"

FerryFor50
01-15-2018, 09:06 PM
Duke seems to be starting to figure out the defense. It comes in waves, and they definitely still have lapses, but overall I like the progress.

The defense down the stretch was huge. Great post defense. Contesting shots at the rim and on the perimeter. Miami looked lost against the zone.

They definitely need to clean up the turnovers. Too sloppy with the ball. And it'd be nice if GA started shooting like GA again, but great to see his poor shooting not affecting his effort. And if Duke could shoot FTs at a 60-70% clip. But still a great win. Trent and Carter carried the team on their backs when Bagley and Allen were having rough games on offense.

JD for Three!
01-15-2018, 09:06 PM
Would love to understand what happened to allow the guys to realize that they were the better team and to execute as such. Tremendous last 1/4 of the game.
Post-game, mr. Trent said that The GOAT got on them a bit and also mashed them a bit. Thatís why heís the GOAT

Devilwin
01-15-2018, 09:06 PM
Let's give Duval some love. He was awesome in the comeback.

Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15
01-15-2018, 09:07 PM
Our bigs were getting hammered, we were air-mailing passes to Alex Rodriguez in the stands, we couldn't hit free throws.

Amazing that we can do all that and win by eight. The ceiling for this team is...

Well, nevermind.

Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15
01-15-2018, 09:08 PM
You have to take chat with a grain of salt. Okay, a truck load of salt. Brev has some fantastic one-liners, the emotional roller coaster is in full effect, and feuds between Duke fans really heat up.

Chat gets horrible when the attacks against players come up. I feel terrible for Duval...

Duval - if youíre reading this, remember that Iím youíre #1 fan

But the chat is an Etch-a-Sketch. Horrible comments on in-game thread live on in infamy.

throatybeard
01-15-2018, 09:09 PM
What Duke just did to Miami looked a lot like what Kentucky did to Duke in 1998.

Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15
01-15-2018, 09:09 PM
What Duke just did to Miami looked a lot like what Kentucky did to Duke in 1998.

#triggered

kshepinthehouse
01-15-2018, 09:11 PM
Grayson got every single 50-50 ball it seems and ended up with 5 steals. Huge contributions from him not mentioning his offense.

CameronDuke
01-15-2018, 09:11 PM
Portland State, Texas, Florida, and Miami wins were just like we drew them up!

Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15
01-15-2018, 09:12 PM
Grayson got every single 50-50 ball it seems and ended up with 5 steaks. Huge contributions from him not mentioning his offense.

Mmmm... Delicious

weezie
01-15-2018, 09:12 PM
But the chat is an Etch-a-Sketch. Horrible comments on in-game thread live on in infamy.

Chat wasn't that bad tonight, at least from my perspective. Anybody who wasn't horrified at that incomprehensible stretch in second half should be put up for beatification.

FerryFor50
01-15-2018, 09:12 PM
Grayson got every single 50-50 ball it seems and ended up with 5 steaks. Huge contributions from him not mentioning his offense.

Steak of the month! ;)

CameronDuke
01-15-2018, 09:13 PM
Duke closes the 2017-2018 regular season undefeated against the state of Florida.

dukelifer
01-15-2018, 09:13 PM
This team has some fight in them. Trent was the man when it counted. His hitting those shots took the wind out of Miami and they started to feel the pressure. Grayson made some big plays- even though his shot was off again. It has to come back at some point. Too many turnovers. Duval with an up and down game- he plays very young at times but his athleticism allows him to make some impressive plays. Carter was very good tonight with Bagley having an off game for him. The zone flustered Miami at the end. The team grew up a little more tonight. Happy to escape Miami with any kind of win. I think I will watch that last 7 minutes over again.

kAzE
01-15-2018, 09:13 PM
Grayson got every single 50-50 ball it seems and ended up with 5 steaks. Huge contributions from him not mentioning his offense.

He needs to share some of those steaks. Wendell looked hungry out there.

Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15
01-15-2018, 09:13 PM
Steak of the month! ;)

He gets go choose the restaurant all week!

Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15
01-15-2018, 09:14 PM
Grayson got every single 50-50 ball it seems and ended up with 5 steaks. Huge contributions from him not mentioning his offense.

I know it is early, but I would like to nominate this for 2018 DBR Typo of the Year.

OldPhiKap
01-15-2018, 09:15 PM
Grayson got every single 50-50 ball it seems and ended up with 5 steaks.

Thatís pretty rare.

DangerDevil
01-15-2018, 09:15 PM
I think that is their style to play slow, but if they hadnít slowed down I think they would have run us out of the gym.

weezie
01-15-2018, 09:16 PM
Or was it well done?

Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15
01-15-2018, 09:17 PM
Thatís pretty rare.

Well done, punster. Our bigs were getting tenderized underneath tonight. I worried when Bagley T-boned his shoulder and went to the ground. But Carter played great round ball.

dukelifer
01-15-2018, 09:18 PM
Let's give Duval some love. He was awesome in the comeback.

Like most everyone else- except maybe Carter- there was a lot of that game he does not want to show to anyone. But when it counted, he hit some key shots.

kshepinthehouse
01-15-2018, 09:18 PM
I know it is early, but I would like to nominate this for 2018 DBR Typo of the Year.

Stupid iPhone auto correct 😂

Duke76
01-15-2018, 09:18 PM
Heck of a win. The game was downright ugly at times. Trent came up big.

I wish we could get Grayson back on track offensively.

Paging Chip Engelland...Pop needs to give him a leave of absence...would not take long...but we need him for Grayson...now

FerryFor50
01-15-2018, 09:19 PM
Well done, punster. Our bigs were getting tenderized underneath tonight. I worried when Bagley T-boned his shoulder and went to the ground. But Carter played great round ball.

I felt like they needed to box out with their rumps more, but overall, the game was well done.

DavidBenAkiva
01-15-2018, 09:21 PM
Duke showed toughness in the second half of the second half.

I loved the decision to switch to zone. In particular, I love when it happened. Miami had not answer and it was too late to really adjust. Duke drains some open look 3's, sets up its zone again, and it's back to work. The zone also allowed Duke to keep Carter and Bagley near the rim for blocks and rebounds.

Also, Trevon having confidence to take and make open 3's is really opening up things for the team. He's shooting well over 35% in conference games. That's amazing after his early season struggles. And Trent, Jr. is a shooter. The kid has game. What a performance.

kAzE
01-15-2018, 09:21 PM
Like most everyone else- except maybe Carter- there was a lot of that game he does not want to show to anyone. But when it counted, he hit some key shots.

Wait what is this referring to? I thought Carter (and Trent) was the difference in the game. His defense in the middle of the zone was key. He finally learned how to not foul.

JNort
01-15-2018, 09:23 PM
You have to take chat with a grain of salt. Okay, a truck load of salt. Brev has some fantastic one-liners, the emotional roller coaster is in full effect, and feuds between Duke fans really heat up.

Chat gets horrible when the attacks against players come up. I feel terrible for Duval...

Duval - if youíre reading this, remember that Iím youíre #1 fan
Yea I try to avoid the chat for the most part. You get a lot of people who don't understand basketball or sports in general trying to talk about it.

Olympic Fan
01-15-2018, 09:25 PM
interesting to see the way Bagley has raised expectations.

So he has a game with 13 points and 11 rebounds and ESPN's Andrea Adelson tweets that he was "contained."

True, less than his scoring average, but 13 and 11 is not chopped liver.

TheOldBattleship
01-15-2018, 09:26 PM
Wow, that stretch early in the second half was... something. I don't think I've ever seen this team look so lost offensively, largely because shots that just about always go down weren't going down (Bagley missed his little spin and flip shot (the one that he's missed maybe twice through the rest of the season) multiple times in a row there, and he once didn't get back quickly because he was staring at the rim in disbelief). But major, major props to the guys for fighting through that and really digging in on defense. Grayson and Carter, in particular, were just rocks on that end tonight. And, though I'm sure that it'll be said ad nauseum tonight, the zone was really key. They just KILLED us on drives and on ball-screens, and the zone just took both away. We did a phenomenal job on the boards out of the zone in the course of the run, as well. Really, really wish Grayson could just hit a doggone shot, though. It still LOOKS good, which is the weird part of his struggles. Ah well. Just keep shooting, Grayson. (On an opposite track, Duval's 3-point shot continues to be encouraging. Leaning on the eye test again, it just looks so much smoother and has such a better arc than it did at the start of the year. His free throws, on the other hand...)

weezie
01-15-2018, 09:26 PM
Any report from the post game presser?

uh_no
01-15-2018, 09:26 PM
Steak of the month! ;)

hit the bucket, win a steak?

kAzE
01-15-2018, 09:27 PM
7984

Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15
01-15-2018, 09:28 PM
7984

Times ten.

CameronDuke
01-15-2018, 09:28 PM
RPI wise - Duke's best win of the year? And considering it was on the road? Michigan State on a neutral court may be a close second.

JD for Three!
01-15-2018, 09:29 PM
Donít like bad chat and wonít participate in it when my emotions are running high, or I have had too many adult beverages. Not fair to these young men who are really awesome representatives of our school. I will find a spot in my house all by myself, close the door and yell horrendous things at the tv.

I think that we have always gotten every teamís best shot. The nuns from Our Lady of Perpetual Motion (nod to George Carlin) will play us and throw elbows, drain numerous three-pointers from almost mid-court and talk incredible smack. E have weathered that for a long time. This year, we are so thin in experience, that every game has the potential to create at least a little arrhythmia. We truly have Grayson as the lone experienced man on the team. I think in the past we have always had at least two experienced players (and I mean some real playing time experience). Youíve got to hang on tight when this team plays.

I cussed when we gave up good leads two times. When we were down 13, I said how the eff do you come back. And they did. Awesome team. Still learning and getting better each game. Itís entirely possible there are a few more hiccups along the way, but raise you hand if you want to draw them in your bracket in March...

duke2x
01-15-2018, 09:30 PM
Quality comeback that makes up for one of the BC/NCSU losses. I know Miami has been weaker than I thought in November/December, but I've still had this pegged as one of our toughest road games. We're down below 1.0 PPP on Pomeroy finally. If we can get that number closer to 0.92 by the end of the year...

Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15
01-15-2018, 09:30 PM
RPI wise - Duke's best win of the year? And considering it was on the road?

From the in-game thread discussion, I am pretty sure it has to be our worst win of the season.

/sarcasm

Top twenty five team at their house? I will always take that. How many of those wins does Duke get a season? Five or six if we are a good team, a lucky team, the ACC is strong, and the schedule breaks right?

Troublemaker
01-15-2018, 09:32 PM
Any report from the post game presser?

Watching it (part of it) right now: https://www.pscp.tv/dukebasketball/1lDxLALpDXQKm

GoDuke will probably post the whole thing later

CameronDuke
01-15-2018, 09:33 PM
From the in-game thread discussion, I am pretty sure it has to be our worst win of the season.

/sarcasm

Top twenty five team at their house? I will always take that. How many of those wins does Duke get a season? Five or six if we are a good team, a lucky team, the ACC is strong, and the schedule breaks right?

I will take that kind of win every day. Especially considering our entire bench went only 1-1 for 3 points shooting, Grayson had only 5, we had 19 turnovers, and shot 10-21 from the line. Lots of improvement and learning can occur as a result of this game and we still scored 83, only gave up 75, and won. This is the 3rd straight game for Duke holding their opponent under 1 point per possession

We have a lot of room still to grow. But talent masks lots of errors and shortcomings.

weezie
01-15-2018, 09:39 PM
Watching it (part of it) right now: https://www.pscp.tv/dukebasketball/1lDxLALpDXQKm

GoDuke will probably post the whole thing later

Good stuff Trouble, thanks.

SCMatt33
01-15-2018, 09:41 PM
I really love this win from a growth perspective. Much more than some of our other comebacks and big wins for a few reasons. Grayson still doesn't have a shot but he's not letting it affect the rest of his game at all, which is what you need from a senior captain. Duke had closed to 8, but a missed open three and a bad drive let Miami get it back up to 13. From that point on, I think his only shot was the run out dunk, but I'd have to double check to be sure. Either way, he let the freshman who were playing well finish the game from a scoring perspective. I don't think you need to see any more then the final play of the first half, when he slips on the drive, but comes back and gets the huge steal and pass.

I think Duval is starting to have some recognition of what he should and shouldn't do, and he actually got some coaching today. In the middle of the second half, he had a couple of bad passes, and the coaches benched him for a few minutes, going without a pg. I criticized the coaching staff after the NC State game for not taking advantage of the teaching moment and tacitly reinforcing the bad behavior by leaving him out there. Tonight, they benched him late into the game and the offense was clearly worse without him for those few possessions, but he was lights out when he came back. The offense just flows so much better with him and when he isn't forcing the spectacular pass, it's really tough to stop him. He's also not been jacking up threes that aren't his shot. He had the big 3-5 game against Pitt, but has only taken 3 in the last two games, making them all. Instead of taking that Pitt game and giving himself a green light he didn't deserve, he's really waited and only taken the wide open ones. Even if he only improves to a low 30's shooter the rest of the way by waiting for the open ones, it'll be enough to keep teams honest, much in the way teams are forced to guard Carter lest he drain a wide open one.

The coaches also deserve a lot of credit for giving Carter some second half rest and letting Robinson play a few minutes. Bagley and Allen are guys who seem to be playing 38 a night no matter what, and Trent was so hot tonight you didn't want to bench him. Coach K can sometimes get himself in a rut with substitutions, but letting Robinson get a few minutes was big, even if his presence hurt the offense when the ball ended up in his hands late in the shot clock. Robinson had some nice defensive plays in the first half when the team was still in man to man, and that little bit of rest had to have helped Carter, who had some huge blocks down the stretch.

I think another underestimated factor might be the schedule here. In six days, the team flew to Pittsburgh, played a game, flew back, played a game, flew to Miami, and played a game. That's a lot for freshman. You could see for much of that second half that the team wasn't mentally there. Give them a lot of credit for buckling down and finding something in the tank when it really mattered. I think the team will be helped by having 4 days before the next one

tschang
01-15-2018, 09:43 PM
This is my first post on the DBR boards. Iím a long time Duke fan Ė since the í86 Dawkins-Henderson-Alarie-Bilas team.

I just had to re-watch that incredible comeback, which is easily one of my favorite 5 minutes of the season. Hereís the play-by-play:
- 7:45 Ė Grayson misses a lay up and Miami scores on another transition basket. Duke is down 13, 66-53. Duval finds Trent in the corner for a 3: 66-56.
- 7:15 Ė Duke is in zone. Wendell blocks Huellís dunk. Bagley rebounds it. Duval almost loses the ball, then finds Trent for another 3: 66-59.
- 6:35 Ė Miami misses another lay up. Bagley gets the rebound. Bagley scores on an and-one and hits the free throw: 66-62.
- 6:02 Ė Grayson steals the ball from Brown and dunks. 66-64.
- 5:35 Ė Wendell blocks Brownís drive.
- 5:25 Ė Miami misses a 3.
- 5:10 Ė Wendell ties it on a drive: 66-66.
- 4:50 Ė Wendell blocks another drive.
- 4:40 Ė Duval hits a layup, causing the floor slap: 68-66. Duke on a 15-0 run.

Here were the keys to the comeback:

1) This may be obvious but our zone defense was highly effective. Our players have gotten better with the zone, rotating over and covering. Carter is going up, vertically with two hands and either blocking drives or altering shots. This caused a lot of stagnation for Miamiís offense with players standing around or trying to play hero ball.

2) Our defensive rebounding is better when we play zone. During those three minutes, we got almost every missed Miami shot (I believe we got 6 out of 7 possible defensive rebounds). This is because when we play zone, our positioning is better.

3) Our freshmen can really score. Nuff said.

Really impressed with how our team pulled together and locked down on D. Go duke!

godins
01-15-2018, 09:43 PM
Quality comeback that makes up for one of the BC/NCSU losses. I know Miami has been weaker than I thought in November/December, but I've still had this pegged as one of our toughest road games. We're down below 1.0 PPP on Pomeroy finally. If we can get that number closer to 0.92 by the end of the year...

Yes, defense trending the right direction in KenPom, confirming the eye test over the last few games. Not great, but getting better. 0.92 by the end of the year would equal the 2015 team (ranked 11 in AdjD by year's end) and top 10 this year. I'd settle for 0.95, which is good for 25th right now; I think we'd all take a repeat of 2015.

Stray Gator
01-15-2018, 09:44 PM
If there's one lesson Duke fans should have learned about this team by now, it's that these guys never give up, and never concede defeat, even when they get down by a double-digit margin in the second half. No doubt, it was disheartening and frustrating tonight for Duke fans to see so many turnovers and missed free throws, and to watch Grayson continue to struggle with his shot. But time and again we've seen this squad overcome a spell of poor team play and an off-night by one or two players to persevere, tough it out, and make a strong comeback. That steal and dunk by Grayson, which provided a huge boost to the Blue Devils' comeback momentum, showed why it pays to stay in the game, keep playing hard, and remain positive.

Based on the messages posted in the game thread this evening, it appears that some Duke fans foolishly folded up their tents and threw in the towel when things weren't going well. In the immortal words of Darth Vader, "I find your lack of faith disturbing." For those of us who haven't given up on this team, thank goodness that the players and coaches believe in themselves enough to maintain their intensity and commitment when things aren't going well, for as long as there's still time on the clock. This was an excellent road win, and perhaps a valuable learning experience -- for our players and fans alike.

DukieInBrasil
01-15-2018, 09:44 PM
Thatís pretty rare.

It was a tough one, but winning tenderized the angst.

TheOldBattleship
01-15-2018, 09:45 PM
I have to admit, I'm completely baffled by how people feel about Duval. Yes, he makes freshman mistakes because he's occasionally overaggressive. But he's always seemed pretty clearly to me to more than make up for his mistakes with the positives he brings because of his athleticism, strength, and, yes, aggression. Having a guy initiating the offense who is a threat to drive and finish unless your bigs help is a seriously important part of our offense, not least because of the variety it brings (Grayson and Trent are great, but neither can consistently get in the paint and create for others the way that Duval can). His JOB on this team is to push it offensively, to walk that line between normal aggressiveness and craziness as best he can. And, for the most part, he does it really, really well, especially for a freshman.

Tonight, I thought he was really good overall. He struggled during the stretch that literally everyone on the team struggled, but his ball pressure up top and his ability (and willingness) to move the ball around was crucial during our comeback. And his (knock on wood) three point shot? If that is at all real, that really changes the dynamic of the starting lineup on offense. His finishing is already more than impressive, his defense is very good (particularly in the zone where his role is a bit simpler), his court vision is good, and his decision-making is better than people are giving him credit for, especially given all that's asked of him with the outrageously talented lineup we throw out there. The turnovers look bad, and giving up transition points is really glaringly obvious, but, my goodness, the guy brings so much to the table every night that it's crazy to me to not appreciate what he does out there for this team.

UrinalCake
01-15-2018, 09:45 PM
I know there were a lot of NBA scouts in the building to see Bagley, but Carter likely left the biggest impression. He was the man on both ends. It looked to me like Miamiís game plan was to go right at him and try to get him in foul trouble, but he came up big over and over again, blocking or deflecting the ball and grabbing rebounds. Such an impressive performance.

I thought the half court defense was excellent all game, but we committed so many turnovers that led to run outs which we just canít defend. Our game plan on offense was to pound it in to Bagley but Miami obviously isnít stupid and knows that we want to do that, so they put all their focus into preventing those entry passes. We kept trying to force it in anyways and kept throwing it away. Really frustrating to watch but finally we made the necessary adjustments.

Defensively it looked to me like we went to a 3-2 zone rather than our typical 2-3 and that was the difference in the game. Having the extra defender out front allowed us to close the gaps where they were getting open threes, and also pressured the passes and created some turnovers. When they did manage to get the ball inside, Carter patrolled the lane all by himself.

Duval did not have his best game but he came up big in the end, hitting a huge three when they left him to double team Bagley and making several key plays. For anyone that wondered why K has allowed him to continue shooting threes all season when he has been terrible from there, it has been to prepare him for moments like this. Allen likewise had a rough game but continued to play hard. This was perfectly exemplified at the end of the first half when he had a bad turnover off a slip but then immediately made up for it with a hustle steal and dish to Gary for the three.

Altogether a really satisfying win. Trent looked like death warmed over, heís clearly still sick but his shooting tonight was sick (in the good way).

subzero02
01-15-2018, 09:49 PM
Would love to understand what happened to allow the guys to realize that they were the better team and to execute as such. Tremendous last 1/4 of the game.

It's called being a bunch of freshmen. Conference play will refine our killer instincts as a team; we definitely have several individuals with killer instincts on this squad. If we stay healthy, we will see a very dangerous team towards the end of February and maybe sooner.

Neals384
01-15-2018, 09:50 PM
Would love to understand what happened to allow the guys to realize that they were the better team and to execute as such. Tremendous last 1/4 of the game.


this bunch struggles with the mtm.
But they are a different team in the zone
Embrace the Z


I donít know why we even try to play m2m anymore. Just practice zone and perfect it at this point.


Duke showed toughness in the second half of the second half.

I loved the decision to switch to zone. In particular, I love when it happened. Miami had not answer and it was too late to really adjust. Duke drains some open look 3's, sets up its zone again, and it's back to work. The zone also allowed Duke to keep Carter and Bagley near the rim for blocks and rebounds.



1) This may be obvious but our zone defense was highly effective. Our players have gotten better with the zone, rotating over and covering. Carter is going up, vertically with two hands and either blocking drives or altering shots. This caused a lot of stagnation for Miamiís offense with players standing around or trying to play hero ball.

2) Our defensive rebounding is better when we play zone. During those three minutes, we got almost every missed Miami shot (I believe we got 6 out of 7 possible defensive rebounds). This is because when we play zone, our positioning is better!

This, this and this. Let the record show we switched to zone at the 9 minute mark and won the rest of the game 30-14.

welcome to DBR, tschang. Hope to hear from you often.

FerryFor50
01-15-2018, 09:51 PM
I have to admit, I'm completely baffled by how people feel about Duval. Yes, he makes freshman mistakes because he's occasionally overaggressive. But he's always seemed pretty clearly to me to more than make up for his mistakes with the positives he brings because of his athleticism, strength, and, yes, aggression. Having a guy initiating the offense who is a threat to drive and finish unless your bigs help is a seriously important part of our offense, not least because of the variety it brings (Grayson and Trent are great, but neither can consistently get in the paint and create for others the way that Duval can). His JOB on this team is to push it offensively, to walk that line between normal aggressiveness and craziness as best he can. And, for the most part, he does it really, really well, especially for a freshman.

Tonight, I thought he was really good overall. He struggled during the stretch that literally everyone on the team struggled, but his ball pressure up top and his ability (and willingness) to move the ball around was crucial during our comeback. And his (knock on wood) three point shot? If that is at all real, that really changes the dynamic of the starting lineup on offense. His finishing is already more than impressive, his defense is very good (particularly in the zone where his role is a bit simpler), his court vision is good, and his decision-making is better than people are giving him credit for, especially given all that's asked of him with the outrageously talented lineup we throw out there. The turnovers look bad, and giving up transition points is really glaringly obvious, but, my goodness, the guy brings so much to the table every night that it's crazy to me to not appreciate what he does out there for this team.

Completely agree. The hate for Duval is weird. Duke needed a PG and got a good one in Duval. Remember, Bobby Hurley made his share of mistakes as a freshman, too. Not saying Duval is anywhere on the same level as Hurley, but freshmen make mistakes. As long as he's learning from him, it's all good.

FerryFor50
01-15-2018, 09:53 PM
I know there were a lot of NBA scouts in the building to see Bagley, but Carter likely left the biggest impression. He was the man on both ends. It looked to me like Miamiís game plan was to go right at him and try to get him in foul trouble, but he came up big over and over again, blocking or deflecting the ball and grabbing rebounds. Such an impressive performance.

I thought the half court defense was excellent all game, but we committed so many turnovers that led to run outs which we just canít defend. Our game plan on offense was to pound it in to Bagley but Miami obviously isnít stupid and knows that we want to do that, so they put all their focus into preventing those entry passes. We kept trying to force it in anyways and kept throwing it away. Really frustrating to watch but finally we made the necessary adjustments.

Defensively it looked to me like we went to a 3-2 zone rather than our typical 2-3 and that was the difference in the game. Having the extra defender out front allowed us to close the gaps where they were getting open threes, and also pressured the passes and created some turnovers. When they did manage to get the ball inside, Carter patrolled the lane all by himself.

Duval did not have his best game but he came up big in the end, hitting a huge three when they left him to double team Bagley and making several key plays. For anyone that wondered why K has allowed him to continue shooting threes all season when he has been terrible from there, it has been to prepare him for moments like this. Allen likewise had a rough game but continued to play hard. This was perfectly exemplified at the end of the first half when he had a bad turnover off a slip but then immediately made up for it with a hustle steal and dish to Gary for the three.

Altogether a really satisfying win. Trent looked like death warmed over, heís clearly still sick but his shooting tonight was sick (in the good way).

Carter reminds me a lot of Paul Milsap. Big, solid guy who can rebound, defend and step out to hit a 3.

WiJoe
01-15-2018, 09:56 PM
per play-by-play, last Duke sub was Grayson for AOC ... with 13:03 to play. Starters on floor for last 13:03.

UNBELIEVABLE. Freaking unbelievable.

That's what they're starters. And, I guess, FINISHERS !!!!

W O W

TheOldBattleship
01-15-2018, 09:59 PM
Weird note from Ben Swain on Twitter (https://twitter.com/TheBenSwain/status/952547690130345984):

Duke three point shooting on the year [coming into today's game]:

"Nike balls: 118-295 (40%)
Adidas balls: 6-32 (19%)
UA balls: 8-30 (27%)
Spaulding balls: 9-23 (39%)

13-0 with Nike balls
1-0 with Spaulding
1-1 with Adidas
0-1 with Under Armour"

Turned out to not matter all that much, as we went 11-21 with Miami's Adidas-brand basketballs (largely on the strength of Trent/Duval's 8-11). If anyone wants to do the painful legwork, though, I WOULD be very intrigued to see what Grayson's numbers have been with the different ball-types...

Billy Dat
01-15-2018, 10:02 PM
- 7:45 Ė Grayson misses a lay up and Miami scores on another transition basket. Duke is down 13, 66-53. Duval finds Trent in the corner for a 3: 66-56.
- 7:15 Ė Duke is in zone. Wendell blocks Huellís dunk. Bagley rebounds it. Duval almost loses the ball, then finds Trent for another 3: 66-59.
- 6:35 Ė Miami misses another lay up. Bagley gets the rebound. Bagley scores on an and-one and hits the free throw: 66-62.
- 6:02 Ė Grayson steals the ball from Brown and dunks. 66-64.
- 5:35 Ė Wendell blocks Brownís drive.
- 5:25 Ė Miami misses a 3.
- 5:10 Ė Wendell ties it on a drive: 66-66.
- 4:50 Ė Wendell blocks another drive.
- 4:40 Ė Duval hits a layup, causing the floor slap: 68-66. Duke on a 15-0 run

The two Trent 3s bracketing the Carter block at the rim were the defibrillator. Our inability to score in the first 12 minutes of the second half was bizarre. Gary broke that drought with a lay-up, but his 2 threes got the comeback going. Tschangís timeline illustrates why the comeback was so hard to fathom, it happened so fast! I was waiting for the other shoe to drop. It did...right on Trevonís head and the resulting trauma somehow fixed his broken jumper. The world makes no sense. Definitely one of the oddest road wins in years. Great job, fellas.

weezie
01-15-2018, 10:03 PM
Weird note from Ben Swain on Twitter (https://twitter.com/TheBenSwain/status/952547690130345984):

Duke three point shooting on the year [coming into today's game]:

"Nike balls: 118-295 (40%)
Adidas balls: 6-32 (19%)
UA balls: 8-30 (27%)
Spaulding balls: 9-23 (39%)

13-0 with Nike balls
1-0 with Spaulding
1-1 with Adidas
0-1 with Under Armour"

Very good, excellent information.

CameronDuke
01-15-2018, 10:04 PM
Weird note from Ben Swain on Twitter (https://twitter.com/TheBenSwain/status/952547690130345984):

Duke three point shooting on the year [coming into today's game]:

"Nike balls: 118-295 (40%)
Adidas balls: 6-32 (19%)
UA balls: 8-30 (27%)
Spaulding balls: 9-23 (39%)

13-0 with Nike balls
1-0 with Spaulding
1-1 with Adidas
0-1 with Under Armour"

Turned out to not matter all that much, as we went 11-21 with Miami's Adidas-brand basketballs (largely on the strength of Trent/Duval's 8-11). If anyone wants to do the painful legwork, though, I WOULD be very intrigued to see what Grayson's numbers have been with the different ball-types...

Just glad we haven't played any games with The Rock basketballs anymore this year. Surprised we haven't used Wilson basketballs yet either as it's the official sponsor of basketballs for the NCAA Tournament. Always surprised more teams don't utilize them or the invitational tournaments don't use them more. Obviously PK80 used Nike basketballs but I still am surprised we don't see Wilson basketballs in the regular season more being those are the kind we will always use in the NCAA Tournament.

uh_no
01-15-2018, 10:06 PM
Yes, defense trending the right direction in KenPom, confirming the eye test over the last few games. Not great, but getting better. 0.92 by the end of the year would equal the 2015 team (ranked 11 in AdjD by year's end) and top 10 this year. I'd settle for 0.95, which is good for 25th right now; I think we'd all take a repeat of 2015.

the defense was even better than the numbers will show tonight. 20+ points off turnovers....oof.

The halfcourt defense was pretty good all game, even though it looked bat at times due to our lack of scoring.

mgtr
01-15-2018, 10:13 PM
With all the negatives in the in-game thread and this one, it is truly a wonder that we were able to stumble to a victory. Mark it down to clean living, I guess!:D

DukeDevil
01-15-2018, 10:13 PM
Watching it (part of it) right now: https://www.pscp.tv/dukebasketball/1lDxLALpDXQKm

GoDuke will probably post the whole thing later

Hey! That last question about benchmarks was from my buddy Dave! I think if you can ask K a question and not get made fun of that's a win in a presser!

Troublemaker
01-15-2018, 10:15 PM
the defense was even better than the numbers will show tonight. 20+ points off turnovers...oof.

The halfcourt defense was pretty good all game, even though it looked bat at times due to our lack of scoring.

Yep. According to the play-by-play, our final turnover of the game came at 11:10 of the second half. That was the biggest key to the comeback, imo.

Ultrarunner
01-15-2018, 10:15 PM
If there's one lesson Duke fans should have learned about this team by now, it's that these guys never give up, and never concede defeat, even when they get down by a double-digit margin in the second half. No doubt, it was disheartening and frustrating tonight for Duke fans to see so many turnovers and missed free throws, and to watch Grayson continue to struggle with his shot. But time and again we've seen this squad overcome a spell of poor team play and an off-night by one or two players to persevere, tough it out, and make a strong comeback. That steal and dunk by Grayson, which provided a huge boost to the Blue Devils' comeback momentum, showed why it pays to stay in the game, keep playing hard, and remain positive.

Based on the messages posted in the game thread this evening, it appears that some Duke fans foolishly folded up their tents and threw in the towel when things weren't going well. In the immortal words of Darth Vader, "I find your lack of faith disturbing." For those of us who haven't given up on this team, thank goodness that the players and coaches believe in themselves enough to maintain their intensity and commitment when things aren't going well, for as long as there's still time on the clock. This was an excellent road win, and perhaps a valuable learning experience -- for our players and fans alike.

I saw it firsthand in Portland. The team may make a bonehead play or six in a row, but they have guts and a fierce desire to win. It is Graysonís team and they wonít quit.

Tried to spork you. The spread-it-around feature can be annoying.

DukeBlue666s
01-15-2018, 10:20 PM
Did anyone notice when Kís coat came off? Was it due to rage or the flu?

Iím just a huge fan of the coat being ripped off when heís pissed at the team.

DukieInBrasil
01-15-2018, 10:22 PM
Don't look now, but J-Gold has a >3:1 a:to ratio to go with a 9:7 steal:turn ratio.
He had a pretty rough start to the year, but he has matured quite a bit lately, on the court at least. And, he's made his last 3 shots.

Dr. Rosenrosen
01-15-2018, 10:23 PM
Did anyone notice when Kís coat came off? Was it due to rage or the flu?

Iím just a huge fan of the coat being ripped off when heís pissed at the team.
Iíd love to see him pull a Tommy Boy Callahan and just rip through his coat while heís wearing it!

duke4ever19
01-15-2018, 10:25 PM
One of the ugliest wins I have seen for Duke in a long time, but a road win against a top 25 team all the same. Lots to improve on.

On another note, I am disgusted by the in-game thread today. So disappointing. Let's support this young team and try to stay positive.


Yeah, it was pretty bad tonight.

I prefer the live chat, but I can't use it because it seems like one or two posters there somehow have magic TV's that are around 15 seconds faster than everyone else (especially mine), so it's like getting one hundred mini-spoilers. I don't begrudge them their magic TVs. I just wish I had one. :)

ipatent
01-15-2018, 10:26 PM
It was a big win and I'm still pinching myself to see if it really happened. They looked positively awful midway through the second half, not just on defense but on offense with one terrible turnover after another. Still plenty of room for this team to grow, but it's a good sign they can win on the road after having that kind of stretch and Grayson in a shooting slump.

sagegrouse
01-15-2018, 10:30 PM
In Southern Mexico preparing to return. At halftime of game (following on ESPN Gamecast), I realized our flights for tomorrow were canceled. Stopped following game to work on new flights. Noticed we were down by 13 -- hunh?? Got new flights and checked in again to see we were now ahead. Double "hunh??

Weird.

ncexnyc
01-15-2018, 10:34 PM
Don't look now, but J-Gold has a >3:1 a:to ratio to go with a 9:7 steal:turn ratio.
He had a pretty rough start to the year, but he has matured quite a bit lately, on the court at least. And, he's made his last 3 shots.

Good thing he doesn't play for the Cheats, otherwise Wheat would have him as 2nd Team All-ACC.

Seriously, he's been solid and doesn't make bad plays when he gets on the court. At this stage of his career I don't expect him to blow by anyone or hit a pull-up jumper when he brings the ball down the court. However, it's nice to know that Duval can get a breather or two when needed and not have to worry about a turnover waiting to happen when the switch is made.

Someone else mentioned Coach K losing the jacket and I really enjoyed that as well.

Didn't care for Dicky V's take on Allen's steal. From the replay it appeared that Brown was the one who grabbed an arm, not the other way around.

Newton_14
01-15-2018, 10:38 PM
Wow. Really big win in my opinion. Very nutty/strange game. We played so poorly for so many portions of the game, I kept wondering over and over how we were still in the game, yet somehow we were. When Miami stretched it to 13-14 points I felt for sure we were done. Enter the Starting 5 again, Trent goes crazy from 3, Duval turns into great Duval, and we go away from Bagley and in to Carter in the paint, start getting stops with the zone and voila! A 30 to 9 run, and 5 of those 9 points came in garbage time, were basically conceded, and were for sure meaningless. Miami looked shell shocked and it was darn enjoyable to watch after all the yappin they had done all night.

Given the following factors, I don't think you can understate how big this win was for this team.
1. Flu/Stomach bug running through the players and coaching staff
2. Injuries had our top 2 reserve bigs in street clothes
3. Saturday-Monday turnaround with a road game requiring a plane flight.
4. Opponent is a ranked team that's undefeated at home
5. Grayson shooting slump continues/Bagley held in check

I think this win will be a big lift to this team's confidence, something the Pitt and Wake wins really couldn't give them. Hopefully they can regain some swagger in the games ahead.

The other thing is I hope the willingness to go deep into the bench early and often, including both halves continues, especially when we get Javin and Bolden back. We have gotten some really solid minutes out of Alex, J-Rob, J-Gold, and Jack in these last 3 games which is wonderful! Who had J-Rob getting meaningful minutes in both halves against ACC opponents when the game was still close, back in the preseason? Please raise your hand. :)

Time to get some rest, get well from sickness, heal up from injury, and blow the doors off Pitt in Cameron this coming Saturday!

Go Duke!

devildeac
01-15-2018, 10:39 PM
Thatís pretty rare.

Making no bones about it and declaring you'll hear no beef from me. Mooooving on now.

hustleplays
01-15-2018, 10:42 PM
This, this and this. Let the record show we switched to zone at the 9 minute mark and won the rest of the game 30-14.

welcome to DBR, tschang. Hope to hear from you often.

What is the +/- on Zone vs MtM? Would our resident statisticians please illuminate? Thank you, Kedsy, in advance. :-)

My eyeballs say that Zone has been more effective for us, but I know that my eyeballs aren't trustworthy.

I understand that playing one or the other D all of the time is likely to reduce effectiveness, but it would still be interesting to see which has been more effective, overall.

I ask a lot, I know, but it would also be interesting to learn how the Zone/Mtm effectiveness ratio has changed as the season has progressed.

I'm getting greedy, sorry. But how about a breakdown of the 2-3 vs. 3-2 zone? The 3-2 zone against Miami seemed effective.

Thank you.

CameronDuke
01-15-2018, 10:44 PM
4 games into 9 ACC road games at 2-2 is good work. Still have at Wake, at UNC, at GT, at Clemson, and at VT. Duke has a solid shot at finishing with a winning record in ACC road games this year which is something that was in doubt after opening at BC and at NCSU 0-2 to start the ACC road game circuit.

One more win on the road in the league from this year's squad and it will match the 3 total ACC road wins last year's team earned en route to a 3-6 ACC road game record in the 2016-2017 season.

JD for Three!
01-15-2018, 10:47 PM
I want to apologize for responding negatively to someone who was bashing one of our starters. Both of our posts were removed, and Iíll move forward, although I might respond similarly again given similar circumstances.
Not pushing back on the moderators. I understand their actions. Just gonna push back on the haters. ☺️

kAzE
01-15-2018, 10:54 PM
I hate to be the first nitpicker, but holy cow, they had 78 shot attempts to our 56. We gave up 19 turnovers and allowed 13 offensive rebounds. Based on those stats, it's incredible that we won.

It seems that the zone needs some work to understand box out responsibilities, but we're holding teams to crazy low FG% with the zone.

moonpie23
01-15-2018, 10:57 PM
it appears that some Duke fans foolishly folded up their tents and threw in the towel when things weren't going well. .

some, but not all... :)

CameronDuke
01-15-2018, 10:58 PM
I hate to be the first nitpicker, but holy cow, they had 78 shot attempts to our 56. We gave up 19 turnovers and allowed 13 offensive rebounds. Based on those stats, it's incredible that we won.

It seems that the zone needs some work to understand box out responsibilities, but we're holding teams to crazy low FG% with the zone.

There was a time we had 19 turnovers in 29 minutes or something like that and were 5-15 from the line. But the last 11 minutes Duke didn't turn it over once to my knowledge and essentially couldn't miss from 3 or really overall. Basketball is weird sometimes.

TheOldBattleship
01-15-2018, 11:04 PM
It seems that the zone needs some work to understand box out responsibilities, but we're holding teams to crazy low FG% with the zone.

This is entirely anecdotal and I'd be happy if anyone could step in with the actual stats, but it sure seemed to me that we gave up markedly fewer offensive rebounds while in the zone than we did when in man to man, primarily because we were entirely unable to contain the drive in man to man, so both of our bigs spent a lot of time coming over in help and leaving their man wide open for putbacks after we'd force the initial misses. One thing that seems pretty consistent to me throughout the season is that we've been able to avoid the stereotypical bugaboo of zone defenses (giving up tons of offensive rebounds), largely because of the individual rebounding brilliance of Bagley and Carter. We really struggle to make the extra rotation required by man-to-man schemes where the weakside corner man's defender has to dig down and get a body on the offensive rebounder rolling to the hoop when our bigs are pulled off to help on drives, and that's where, I think, a lot of our defensive rebounding woes really come into play.

BigZ
01-15-2018, 11:05 PM
The only thing that is concerning is Grayson. He has lost his whole offese

CameronDuke
01-15-2018, 11:05 PM
Duke and Miami really have an uphill climb remaining in the league to ascend to where they were picked in the 2017-2018 preseason media poll. Duke currently sits at 5th and was picked 1st and Miami currently sits at 9th and was picked 4th. It's really starting to get log jammed in the middle of the league standings too. Lots of pretty even 2-3 loss teams currently but also some 1 loss teams (GT, Louisville) that I feel Duke is better than and the jury is still out on Clemson, too.

devildeac
01-15-2018, 11:10 PM
There was a time we had 19 turnovers in 29 minutes or something like that and were 5-15 from the line. But the last 11 minutes Duke didn't turn it over once to my knowledge and essentially couldn't miss from 3 or really overall. Basketball is weird sometimes.

From 7:44 when Trent hit a 3, if my eyes and counting can be trusted :o, we were 10/12 from the field (Bagley and Carter each missed 1 shot), including 4/4 on 3s. I'm still stunned.

YmoBeThere
01-15-2018, 11:12 PM
it appears that some Duke fans foolishly folded up their tents and threw in the towel when things weren't going well.

I was traveling from Las Vegas to Phoenix during most of the game but was able to finally see some of it starting with Wendell's basket to tie it at 66. We outscored them 17-9 from that point on so I'm not sure what the big deal is/was. Doesn't everyone know A Season is a Lifetime?

devildeac
01-15-2018, 11:14 PM
From 7:44 when Trent hit a 3, if my eyes and counting can be trusted :o, we were 10/12 from the field (Bagley and Carter each missed 1 shot), including 4/4 on 3s. I'm still stunned.

Miami was 3/15 during the last 7:59 with 2 of those made FG coming in the last 0:34. :eek:

kAzE
01-15-2018, 11:15 PM
This is entirely anecdotal and I'd be happy if anyone could step in with the actual stats, but it sure seemed to me that we gave up markedly fewer offensive rebounds while in the zone than we did when in man to man, primarily because we were entirely unable to contain the drive in man to man, so both of our bigs spent a lot of time coming over in help and leaving their man wide open for putbacks after we'd force the initial misses. One thing that seems pretty consistent to me throughout the season is that we've been able to avoid the stereotypical bugaboo of zone defenses (giving up tons of offensive rebounds), largely because of the individual rebounding brilliance of Bagley and Carter. We really struggle to make the extra rotation required by man-to-man schemes where the weakside corner man's defender has to dig down and get a body on the offensive rebounder rolling to the hoop when our bigs are pulled off to help on drives, and that's where, I think, a lot of our defensive rebounding woes really come into play.

I think you're actually right. We gave up a bunch of offensive boards earlier in the game, and like CameronDuke said, we just completely dominated the last 11 minutes, almost inexplicably. I don't if I've ever seen a bigger swing in momentum that quickly.

hustleplays
01-15-2018, 11:15 PM
What is the +/- on Zone vs MtM? Would our resident statisticians please illuminate? Thank you, Kedsy, in advance. :-)

My eyeballs say that Zone has been more effective for us, but I know that my eyeballs aren't trustworthy.

I understand that playing one or the other D all of the time is likely to reduce effectiveness, but it would still be interesting to see which has been more effective, overall.

I ask a lot, I know, but it would also be interesting to learn how the Zone/Mtm effectiveness ratio has changed as the season has progressed.

I'm getting greedy, sorry. But how about a breakdown of the 2-3 vs. 3-2 zone? The 3-2 zone against Miami seemed effective.

Thank you.

So, I belatedly saw the thread "Tracking Duke's Defense." I will read it. Sorry I didn't see it before my post.

luvdahops
01-15-2018, 11:16 PM
I hate to be the first nitpicker, but holy cow, they had 78 shot attempts to our 56. We gave up 19 turnovers and allowed 13 offensive rebounds. Based on those stats, it's incredible that we won.

It seems that the zone needs some work to understand box out responsibilities, but we're holding teams to crazy low FG% with the zone.

Well, we shot 21 FTs to their 10, so the net possession difference was not quite that large. But we were -6 in offensive rebounds and -8 in turnovers, so ~negative 14, which is typically very hard to overcome.

I agree that the zone has been highly effective in terms of FG % defense. Especially tonight.

CameronDuke
01-15-2018, 11:22 PM
Trent, Jr. now leads the team with 46 made 3-pointers this season and we now shoot 68.7% as a team from the free throw line after tonight. We still average 88 points per contest in league play which is insane.

CoachJ10
01-15-2018, 11:22 PM
We all see the shooting slump that Grayson is in, but it is great to see him out there talking and being a leader. These freshman need that as much as they need his shooting.

Very minor note, but Jabari Parker knows what Carter and Bags have been going thru the last few ACC games. these refs have been letting our bigs get hammered more than usual.

Even more minor note, have ACC refs given up calling travels on teams other than Duke? I have counted about 2 dozen in the last few games that are as obvious as can be.

kAzE
01-15-2018, 11:28 PM
Very minor note, but Jabari Parker knows what Carter and Bags have been going thru the last few ACC games. these refs have been letting our bigs get hammered more than usual..

Seems like Carter has adjusted to the high physicality games more readily than Bagley. As beastly as Bagley is, he's actually more of a finesse player, and relies much more on quickness than strength.

uh_no
01-15-2018, 11:42 PM
Seems like Carter has adjusted to the high physicality games more readily than Bagley. As beastly as Bagley is, he's actually more of a finesse player, and relies much more on quickness than strength.

wait what?

bagley has 3 30 point games in 6 tries and a perfect 6/6 double doubles...am I missing something here? Even better, bagley's minimum output before tonight (15 points) was the same as carter's MAX output. (15).

I'm not sure how one could draw that conclusion.

Stray Gator
01-15-2018, 11:53 PM
Incidentally, I was encouraged to see Duke come out in the blue road uniforms tonight. Unless I'm mistaken, the team has only worn those hideous black uniforms twice this season -- at BC and at N.C. State. Sometimes, adhering to tradition really is a good thing.

kAzE
01-16-2018, 12:08 AM
wait what?

bagley has 3 30 point games in 6 tries and a perfect 6/6 double doubles...am I missing something here? Even better, bagley's minimum output before tonight (15 points) was the same as carter's MAX output. (15).

I'm not sure how one could draw that conclusion.

What I meant by "high physicality" games are games where the refs are just not giving us calls, and people are mugging our big men in the paint. Basically tonight and the Pittsburgh game.

Look, anytime Bagley shoots below 75% from the floor, something is wrong, okay?

uh_no
01-16-2018, 12:13 AM
What I meant by "high physicality" games are games where the refs are just not giving us calls, and people are mugging our big men in the paint. Basically tonight and the Pittsburgh game.

bagley had 16 and 15 v pitt, against carters 10 and 7.
13 and 12 vs 15 and 14.

at worst, the two have performed relatively equally well overall in the two games.

that said, i think whether the refs are making the calls is a bit of a weird criteria, state and wake also played very physically, and even if you take away all the points on FTs, bagley still put up huge numbers.

I think short of a bit more data, singling out two games is a bit of an over-fit.

kAzE
01-16-2018, 12:16 AM
bagley had 16 and 15 v pitt, against carters 10 and 7.
13 and 12 vs 15 and 14.

at worst, the two have performed relatively equally well overall in the two games.

that said, i think whether the refs are making the calls is a bit of a weird criteria, state and wake also played very physically, and even if you take away all the points on FTs, bagley still put up huge numbers.

I think short of a bit more data, singling out two games is a bit of an over-fit.

I'm not saying Bagley was bad at all. I'm just saying Wendell was able to play his usual game, while Bagley seemed to get bounced around a bit and shot below his usual incredible percentage from the floor. Bagley's 70% game is still better than most people's 110% game

mkirsh
01-16-2018, 12:20 AM
Incidentally, I was encouraged to see Duke come out in the blue road uniforms tonight. Unless I'm mistaken, the team has only worn those hideous black uniforms twice this season -- at BC and at N.C. State. Sometimes, adhering to tradition really is a good thing.

Stupid Stats:

Uni-Watch this season
White 10-0
Blue 6-0 (3 were alternate blue in Portland) (note: almost all blue uni games require crazy late game come-backs)
Black 0-2

TREY-von DOO-vol is shooting 16% from 3 (6-38)
Truh-VON Du-VAL is shooting 58% from 3 (7-12)


More serious observations:
Zone definitely won the game tonight, but I saw some improvement in the MTM. Still got beat too much on one-on-one drives, but the PNR defense initial rotations were much better - mostly drop coverage which contested the first shot well (with the notable exception of at least one terrible uncontested dunk) and also prevented kick out threes. Miami shot under 40% overall. The problem was that despite contesting the initial shot, rebounding out of MTM was terrible.

I believe the zone is still a base 2-3, but at times looks like a 3-2 when the ball is on the side up top and the weak side forward comes up. Kind of like UNLV's amoeba D back in the day. I think Coach L is a great coach, but Miami looked lost against the zone, and when they did get it in the middle Carter was a monster contesting shots.

I actually was watching the game DVR delayed and accidentally saw the final score before I finished. When Miami was up 66-56 with about 7 minutes left I thought I must have read the score wrong as it wasn't possible to go on a 27-9 run in that time period. That was amazing.

pfrduke
01-16-2018, 12:23 AM
I just watched the game on replay because I was on a plane for it live. During the scoreless stretch at the start of the half, our offense wasn't really that bad. A couple too many turnovers, but otherwise we were just missing good shots - Trent missed two open threes, Duval missed a wide open layup, Bagley missed a bunch of free throws, etc. Of course, it's easier to be dispassionate when you know the end outcome, but we actually executed better than I thought we would for being in the middle of a 16-0 run. And then we started hitting the shots we were missing - and cut down the turnovers - and that was that.

Kedsy
01-16-2018, 12:37 AM
Just before the 12 minute timeout in the first half, in a two-point game, our lineup was Justin, Jordan, Alex, Jack, and Marvin. Who says K can't change his stripes? I would note, however, that the four subs combined for 22 minutes, but also combined for only one made shot, one rebound, and a turnover. So I'm not sure how long the stripes will stay changed. I do think that once Marques and Javin are healthy, that the two of them plus Alex will all play 5 to 15 minutes in most games. I'll be surprised if the other subs play more than a minute of non-garbage time per game, once we're healthy.

Also, I noted this in the Duke defense thread, but Miami scored 41.3% of their points on fast breaks (31 points). Which (a) is horrifying; but (b) means our halfcourt defense was pretty good.


It seems that the zone needs some work to understand box out responsibilities

It seemed like they got every offensive rebound, but we actually snagged 73.5% of available defensive rebounds. Anything over 70% is pretty good, so I don't think we should be so worried about this.


Really, really wish Grayson could just hit a doggone shot, though. It still LOOKS good, which is the weird part of his struggles.

To me, it looks like Grayson's body is not as square (a little turned to the side) as usual and he's rushing his shot just a bit. Once he hits one or two and remembers what it feels like when he's shooting properly, he should get back on track.


Duval did not have his best game but he came up big in the end

Trevon had 17 points on 63% shooting (100% 3-point shooting), with 8 assists, 5 rebounds, and a steal. Might not have been his best game, but it was pretty darn good.


Don't look now, but J-Gold has a >3:1 a:to ratio to go with a 9:7 steal:turn ratio.
He had a pretty rough start to the year, but he has matured quite a bit lately, on the court at least. And, he's made his last 3 shots.

While Jordan G's stats are nice to see, his good-looking ratios are due almost entirely to our two 60-point blowouts against Evansville and St. Francis, in which he combined for 12 assists, 0 turnovers, and 3 steals. In games decided by fewer than 57 points, his a/to ratio is 1.4:1 and his steal/to ratio is 6:7.


What is the +/- on Zone vs MtM? Would our resident statisticians please illuminate? Thank you, Kedsy, in advance. :-)

As you noticed, we discussed this in the Duke Defense thread. The post which discusses your question in particular is here (http://forums.dukebasketballreport.com/forums/showthread.php?40707-Tracking-Duke%92s-Defense&p=1030393#post1030393).


Might this be a turning point in the season?

We are currently 15-2, #5 in the polls, #4 in KenPom, and #1 in the RPI. How much room do you think there is to turn?

BigZ
01-16-2018, 12:40 AM
The schedule is weird , play Pitt and Wake againstrange

BigZ
01-16-2018, 12:46 AM
Duval reminds me of Westbrook. His only problem is he plays too hard at time

uh_no
01-16-2018, 01:07 AM
I just watched the game on replay because I was on a plane for it live. During the scoreless stretch at the start of the half, our offense wasn't really that bad. A couple too many turnovers, but otherwise we were just missing good shots - Trent missed two open threes, Duval missed a wide open layup, Bagley missed a bunch of free throws, etc. Of course, it's easier to be dispassionate when you know the end outcome, but we actually executed better than I thought we would for being in the middle of a 16-0 run. And then we started hitting the shots we were missing - and cut down the turnovers - and that was that.

I suppose that's one way to say it :)

When you take out the bad things the offense did, the offense was good. And I largely agree...but the turnovers are part of the offense, just as fast break points are part of the defense, so we can't ignore them.

Fortunately, the same thing fixes both problems!

Anyway, not sure I would have seen a point when our half court defense KEPT us in a game. There were times when the lead could have been much larger if we were playing defense like we had in some other games....but we largely didn't tonight...and that's promising.

There were a lot of freshman turnovers today. and some grayson turnovers. maybe the players should carry around basketballs in baby carriers all week??? dunno....but after the first couple, it looked like many of them were out of frustration.

keep getting better. this team can have something special.

PackMan97
01-16-2018, 02:05 AM
Heck of a comeback.

Can't wait for a few years when old fogeys like K and Larranage are retiring along with Roy, Boeheim and Hamilton are gone :)

BandAlum83
01-16-2018, 03:17 AM
So just rewatched the last 8:00.

I thought this happened and just confirmed. With under 1:00, Duval missed the front end of two successive 1 and 1s. BOTH TIMES he got the rebound. The first time he was fouled right away setting up the second. The next time he scored after the rebound on a pretty layup.

My question is how does a well coached team like Miami fail to block out the shooter twice?? The game was still on the line and the didn't block out the foul shooter. It was still a 2 possession game before the Duval layup which made it an 8 point game.

Duke just seems to have amazing focus late in the game and seems to completely wear down the competition.

And by the way, the post game interview on the court with Fary Trent saying Coach K telling the team the gotta play like men, they can't play like boys. I love it.

UrinalCake
01-16-2018, 04:28 AM
Trevon had 17 points on 63% shooting (100% 3-point shooting), with 8 assists, 5 rebounds, and a steal. Might not have been his best game, but it was pretty darn good.

You forgot to mention his five turnovers, many of which were of the hideous variety and led to run outs the other way, or his missed assignments on D when they were in the m2m. He rode the bench for a long stretch in the middle part of the game while the coaches presumably spoke to him. It also seemed to me like he was in a bit of a pissing match with that little dude from Miami; every time he would get the better of Duval, Duval would come right back and try to make a spectacular play on the other end.

But again, he finished the game strong.

UrinalCake
01-16-2018, 04:32 AM
With under 1:00, Duval missed the front end of two successive 1 and 1s. BOTH TIMES he got the rebound...

My question is how does a well coached team like Miami fail to block out the shooter twice??

It looked to me like Duval was way, way short on both of those attempts, to the point that the ball shot right back at him in a manner that the defense doesnít expect. But youíre right, generally a player on the defending team is assigned to box out the shooter, and Miami just didnít do this. Really bizarre sequence.

luburch
01-16-2018, 07:34 AM
Any word on when Javing and Marques are expected back?

I had just about given up. Told myself if Duke didn't get a bucket when they were down 13 then the game was over. Didn't expect an 18-0 run :cool:

I always thought this game would be a tough one. I'm not sure Miami is a top-25 team, but they have a lot of good athletes and Larranaga loves to run PnR offense. I still don't understand Duke's defensive scheme for PnR defense and I'm not sure the players do either. Sometimes the defender tries to deny the screen, other times there's a hard hedge from the big, sometimes the big stays home. I'm sure some of it is situational, but I'm not sure. Often seems like the guard and big aren't on the same page.

Should have an easy one at home on Saturday with a good deal of rest.

alteran
01-16-2018, 07:46 AM
interesting to see the way Bagley has raised expectations.

So he has a game with 13 points and 11 rebounds and ESPN's Andrea Adelson tweets that he was "contained."

True, less than his scoring average, but 13 and 11 is not chopped liver.

Seriously. He was ďheldĒ to a double double.

Saratoga2
01-16-2018, 08:01 AM
What I meant by "high physicality" games are games where the refs are just not giving us calls, and people are mugging our big men in the paint. Basically tonight and the Pittsburgh game.

Look, anytime Bagley shoots below 75% from the floor, something is wrong, okay?

The game was very physical, getting more so in the second half. Part of that was due to the refs attitude, which appeared to be to let them play. In some ways that led to more difficulty scoring in the paint and also more foul line opportunities. Since Duke has been pretty dominant inside and limited in its perimeter shooting, it was a reasonable strategy for Miami to adopt and it did seem to fluster our offense for another beginning of the second half swoon. In a way, the let them play attitude helped us as both Carter and Bagley could play more aggressively with blocks and rebounds.

Good that Trent is hitting his perimeter shot at a high rate for the last couple of games as that reduces the chance of teams to solely concentrate on our bigs. Duval is also a threat with penetration and an ocassional 3. To realize our full potential as a team, we need a second perimeter shooter and Allen is the clear choice to be that guy. It is hard to understand his slump as his form looks pretty good. Something may click for him as the rest of his game has remained solid.

O'Connell came in and passed up shot opportunities that were open for him. He has the capability to do more on the perimeter but appears to be reluctant to pull the trigger. His energy and defense is good, so I guess I am identifying him as an alternative perimeter scoring should Allen remain in a slump. Trent will start to draw the full attention of the defense going forward, so we need that additional threat from somewhere.

moonpie23
01-16-2018, 08:26 AM
So just rewatched the last 8:00.



what HAPPENED in the last 8 mins was, Moonpie caught that VIBE, dood.......

7987

Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15
01-16-2018, 08:26 AM
Seth Greenberg lauding Grayson Allen's defense on SportsCenter. I feel like I am taking crazy pills.

peteandpete
01-16-2018, 08:58 AM
I would like to expand on comments made by a couple of other posters. The zone was played differently on the wings. This was consistent so one would believe that it was intentional. Some have said it was more like a 3-2, but I thought it looked more like a 1-2-2. In either case, a conscious effort was made to take away some things from the Miami offense and the Hurricanes never seemed to adjust. I hope we show a willingness to experiment further with zone defense. Our length could make a 1-3-1 a challenge for some teams and give opponents another thing on the preparation list, which might take time away from other practice activities. The zone's execution offset our turnover problem and our second consecutive bad night at the FT line. Great finish guys!

budwom
01-16-2018, 08:58 AM
Perhaps the silver lining to having Bolden and Javin out is the increased use of the zone...meager bench stats as folks have pointed out (22 minutes, almost no production).
Duke looked like an entirely different team once the zone was employed...

House P
01-16-2018, 09:02 AM
Heck of a comeback.

Can't wait for a few years when old fogeys like K and Larranage are retiring along with Roy, Boeheim and Hamilton are gone :)

Be careful what you wish for. I have it on good authority that all 5 of these coaches will be replaced by Brad Stevens. Not sure how he is going to handle coaching five teams at once, but I am sure he will find some way to lead all of them to the Final Four each year.:)

bluenorth
01-16-2018, 09:10 AM
While the game was ugly for long stretches, there were certainly many bright spots. Allen diving for loose balls to set up his teammates was a great example for the younger guys to follow - when your senior captain will do that, it's time to buy in. Also, it looked as if the communication on defense, especially while playing zone, has improved. Admittedly, it's hard to be sure just from the TV view, but it seemed to me that there were more fingers pointing out cutters than usual. With several days off I would imagine that the team will keep working on that.

With Duval you get what you should expect from a freshman. Typical example was in the last minute when he made a nice steal in the Miami end. With more maturity he would be aware of the score and time remaining, and burn some clock. Instead he did what a young player would do - try to score immediately. One step at a time, I guess.

pfrduke
01-16-2018, 09:12 AM
I suppose that's one way to say it :)

When you take out the bad things the offense did, the offense was good. And I largely agree...but the turnovers are part of the offense, just as fast break points are part of the defense, so we can't ignore them.

Fortunately, the same thing fixes both problems!

I mean, we certainly weren't good during that stretch - you don't go 15 straight possessions without a score while playing flawless basketball. I was just expecting, based on both the outcome and the reaction here, to see the wheels completely come off and was pleasantly surprised to see what looked like reasonably good execution that just didn't quite work out. Based on execution alone, we should have probably scored 10-12 points over those 15 possessions - not a stellar performance, certainly, but also not terrible for what was our worst stretch of the game. I also thought the team did a nice job not getting frustrated during that run and continuing to execute the offense to bring us back. We didn't get materially different looks in the last 10 minutes of the half than we did in the first 10 minutes of the half, we just finished them at the end (and got more of them because we stopped turning the ball over).

Troublemaker
01-16-2018, 09:12 AM
We play a 2-3 zone, folks.

Lifting the back line wings up high to prevent wing threes is pretty standard for 2-3 zone and certainly standard for the Boeheim coaching tree, which now includes Coach K.

Watch the first part of this:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dzr-zkIrXDY

Rich
01-16-2018, 09:29 AM
Not sure the nickname will stick, although I kinda like it. Fun article, though.

https://www.cbssports.com/college-basketball/news/zombie-duke-proves-no-lead-is-safe-in-stunning-comeback-victory-at-miami/

BlueDevil85
01-16-2018, 09:30 AM
Grayson may not be hitting his shots, but his defensive hustle was responsible for a couple of key plays last night - I haven't seen it commented on here yet, but how about the play at the end of the first half, diving for the loose ball and feeding Trent for the three? Bank it!

accfanfrom1970
01-16-2018, 09:30 AM
Beginning of the year it seemed to be all Bagley and Grayson . It seems to have shifted some to Carter and Trent, with Bagley still incredible. I agree Duval has been up and down some, but mostly up....especially at crunch time. When we hit on all cylinders, and we will, there is no one that can keep up.

rsvman
01-16-2018, 09:45 AM
1) I think Coach K had the subs come in during the first half to spell the starters. Note that they came in about a minute to a minute and a half before the under-12 media timeout. I think it was smart, and I think he should have done the same thing just prior to the under-4 timeout, but he did not. Lots of guys sick in the past week or so; perhaps that's why he was trying to get some rest for the starters. This is a strategy that he could/perhaps should employ more frequently, in my opinion.

2) That non-slaught at the beginning of the second half from Bagley's early basket to Trent's basket some 8-ish minutes later was some of the worst basketball I've seen from a Duke team in recent memory. I know y'all can remember other impressive non-slaughts and impressively bad entire games (at Clemson, at Georgetown, etc), but this was on the same level. We just looked entirely inept. I never thought the game was out of hand, and remarked so in the in-game thread even while being upset about our inability to get a single ball through the hoop for such a long time. Miami had a chance to put us away; we could easily have been down 20 given the way we played. The turnovers were the most distressing thing, not the missed shots.

3) I agree that we looked much better in the zone. For those of you thinking that this year's Duke team will become Syracuse, I wouldn't hold my breath. You may remember that Coach K went zone for an entire game in 2015 after we had lost a couple of games, against Louisville in the Yum Center. If I recall correctly, though, that was the only game that season where we went zone from tip to buzzer. Earlier this year we played zone for the entire game (we might have had one or two possessions of man?) against Michigan State. In both of those games, the extended use of the zone was a situational solution. The 2015 team, so effective in the 2-3 zone against Louisville, went on to win the National Championship by playing outstanding man-to-man. I suspect that Coach K has a similar plan in mind for this season: use the zone situationally, but continue to work on the man D hoping to shore it up in time for the tournaments.

As always, I could be wrong.

Troublemaker
01-16-2018, 09:54 AM
For those of you thinking that this year's Duke team will become Syracuse, I wouldn't hold my breath. You may remember that Coach K went zone for an entire game in 2015 after we had lost a couple of games, against Louisville in the Yum Center. If I recall correctly, though, that was the only game that season where we went zone from tip to buzzer. Earlier this year we played zone for the entire game (we might have had one or two possessions of man?) against Michigan State. In both of those games, the extended use of the zone was a situational solution. The 2015 team, so effective in the 2-3 zone against Louisville, went on to win the National Championship by playing outstanding man-to-man. I suspect that Coach K has a similar plan in mind for this season: use the zone situationally, but continue to work on the man D hoping to shore it up in time for the tournaments.

Right. I argued after the MSU game that Duke would continue to be a m2m team first with Coach K coaching. Right or wrong, that is the plan.

The good news is that the m2m has looked better the past 3 games using icing + drop coverage against the PNR. (What's your DBR account, Coach K? ;-) While the zone was great against Miami, the m2m was actually good. The biggest difference in the comeback (bigger than going from a good defense to a great defense) was that Duke stopped turning the ball over. Miami couldn't score without turnovers helping them, and Miami couldn't stop us if they weren't turning us over.

CDu
01-16-2018, 09:57 AM
Yep, there is and has been only one zone played. It will at times look like a 4-1, at times a 3-2, but don't be fooled. It is a 2-3 zone, with the forwards taught to cheat up when there isn't someone lurking in the corner.

I will also echo the comments about how ridiculous folks look in bashing the program in the in-game thread. Folks: it's just not a good idea. At best, you look whiny, and at worst you wind up looking foolish when we come back and win. I would have hoped you learned your lesson after the UF game earlier this year. That's not to say disappointment/frustration wasn't warranted. We were playing like poop for a large stretch of that second half. But please don't extend that frustration into something that it is not (namely, a referendum on the program).

As for the game itself, it's important to remember that Miami is one of the absolute best defensive teams in the league. This was strength against strength, and for a long stretch of the game, their defensive strength was winning. They deserve a LOT of credit for giving our offense fits. It was the best defense we've faced this season, and in a road game at that, and for a while we didn't meet their intensity.

Thankfully, our focus and effort increased in the latter part of the second half, and we dominated down the stretch. Worth noting: this was the #6 defense in the country, on their home court. And we outscored them 27-4 over a 7.5 minute stretch to essentially end the game. That's phenomenal.

Yes, the prior 32 minutes included just 53 points for us. That's not great. But again, I think that is a result of facing the toughest defense we've faced all year, and on the road, and not being ready to meet their intensity. When we regained our footing, it was a surgical dismantling of their defense.

A few additional thoughts:
- Allen is struggling with his shot right now, and he also was sloppy with the ball at times. But he made a bunch of hustle plays on defense throughout.
- Carter has not figured out how to throw the high-low lob to Bagley yet. This was about the 3rd or 4th time he's almost thrown the pass into the basket. From straight on, that shouldn't happen. Makes the passes that Duval and Allen throw look that much more impressive
- Don't look now, but Duval has doubled his 3pt percentage to a still awful but much less so 26%. I still think this team's ceiling depends heavily on his development. He provides an element at the PG that few times ever have. He's still a work in progress, but he's a really really good player even now.
- Carter's block and collect of Huell's driving layup attempt with 1:40 left was ridiculous. We were only up 3 there. Just a massive defensive play. A man's block.
- Obviously, Trent was outstanding. His shooting has been huge in the absence of Allen's shooting.
- Gritty effort by Bagley. It's nice when his off-game is a 13 and 12 night. We are so lucky.

flyingdutchdevil
01-16-2018, 10:05 AM
1) Carter had his best game as a Duke Blue Devil. Stats wise, I'm sure Carter has had better games. He had a really impressive 15/14/3/2/4 with 64% shooting. Great game. But his defense was something I've never seen before. He was a legitimate rim protector out there, and not just because of blocks. He altered shots. He prevented a lot of second chance points. He was, IMO, our best player yesterday. I'm not gonna lie, I never understood the hype surrounding Carter. I know he's had a nice touch around the rim and some great rebounding numbers but I was expecting more. This game changed all that for me. I now see the immense value that Carter brings to the table.

2) Opposing defenses will change their tune on Trent. Right now, he's our best 3pt shooter (67% in last three games). He's been open a lot, because opposing defenses are so worried about Bagley and Allen. And he's more than capable of hitting shots when open. I love his mentality. He rarely forces shots. He rarely takes his man off the dribble. He is so calm and calculated (unless he's being interviewed ;)). I love me some Gary Trent!

3) Duval may be the most underappreciated Dukie in the modern era. Tyler Thornton, David McClure, Lance Thomas, and Matt Jones are all players who were underappreciated. But none had the offensive dynamism that Duval holds. The kid had 17 points, 8 assists, 5 rebounds, and shot 100% from 3pt land and FT land. Oh, and he did this on 11 shots total. So yeah, let the haters hate. And for those of you who bring up Trevon's 5 TOs, Grayson had 4. And you don't see anyone throwing him under the bus. For the love of God, please realize that Duval is a freshman playing the hardest position at Duke.

4) Allen is really struggling to find balance. Raise your hand if you thought Allen would have the least number of shots of the starters two games in a row? Allen gives up open shots for some risky passes. Allen doesn't drive into traffic as much (which may be a good thing). The thing is, I'm not sure if Allen needs to find balance. I want Allen to do, on a nightly basis, what is best for the team. If that's scoring, done. If that's distribution, done. If it's drawing the defense so it opens Trent, done. I like Allen who isn't able to find a balance. Makes every game exciting.

5) I like zone. With this group, it works really, really well. They also seem to enjoy playing zone more. Hope to see plenty more of it.

pfrduke
01-16-2018, 10:09 AM
3) Duval may be the most underappreciated Dukie in the modern era. Tyler Thornton, David McClure, Lance Thomas, and Matt Jones are all players who were underappreciated. But none had the offensive dynamism that Duval holds. The kid had 17 points, 8 assists, 5 rebounds, and shot 100% from 3pt land and FT land. Oh, and he did this on 11 shots total. So yeah, let the haters hate. And for those of you who bring up Trevon's 5 TOs, Grayson had 4. And you don't see anyone throwing him under the bus. For the love of God, please realize that Duval is a freshman playing the hardest position at Duke.

This is, of course, picking at nits - particularly since I agree with the overall thrust of your point - but Duval was decidedly not 100% at the line. He had two misses (of front-ends of one-and-ones) that were so bad that it enabled him to get his own rebound; he missed a third once the game was fully in hand.

weezie
01-16-2018, 10:10 AM
Not sure the nickname will stick, although I kinda like it. Fun article, though.

https://www.cbssports.com/college-basketball/news/zombie-duke-proves-no-lead-is-safe-in-stunning-comeback-victory-at-miami/


I hope we see some creative titles here from our DBR wags.

Truth&Justise
01-16-2018, 10:11 AM
- Carter's block and collect of Huell's driving layup attempt with 1:40 left was ridiculous. We were only up 3 there. Just a massive defensive play. A man's block.

Anyone have a gif or video of this play? I jumped out of my seat, it was incredible. Hoping to see a replay.

tbyers11
01-16-2018, 10:13 AM
Not sure the nickname will stick, although I kinda like it. Fun article, though.

https://www.cbssports.com/college-basketball/news/zombie-duke-proves-no-lead-is-safe-in-stunning-comeback-victory-at-miami/


Anyone have a gif or video of this play? I jumped out of my seat, it was incredible. Hoping to see a replay.

There is video in the CBSsports Zombie Duke article linked by Rich above.

It was an amazing defensive play

kAzE
01-16-2018, 10:15 AM
Between watching the Celtics and this Duke team, coming back from seemingly insurmountable deficits has become pretty commonplace.

It sure is nice to have 4-5 different players who can each individually carry a team. I didn't think Trent had it in him but he proved he could do it.

jv001
01-16-2018, 10:15 AM
Just before the 12 minute timeout in the first half, in a two-point game, our lineup was Justin, Jordan, Alex, Jack, and Marvin. Who says K can't change his stripes? I would note, however, that the four subs combined for 22 minutes, but also combined for only one made shot, one rebound, and a turnover. So I'm not sure how long the stripes will stay changed. I do think that once Marques and Javin are healthy, that the two of them plus Alex will all play 5 to 15 minutes in most games. I'll be surprised if the other subs play more than a minute of non-garbage time per game, once we're healthy.

Also, I noted this in the Duke defense thread, but Miami scored 41.3% of their points on fast breaks (31 points). Which (a) is horrifying; but (b) means our halfcourt defense was pretty good.





To me, it looks like Grayson's body is not as square (a little turned to the side) as usual and he's rushing his shot just a bit. Once he hits one or two and remembers what it feels like when he's shooting properly, he should get back on track.



Trevon had 17 points on 63% shooting (100% 3-point shooting), with 8 assists, 5 rebounds, and a steal. Might not have been his best game, but it was pretty darn good.







We are currently 15-2, #5 in the polls, #4 in KenPom, and #1 in the RPI. How much room do you think there is to turn?

I completely agree on Grayson's form and that he's not squared up most of the time. Like you said that's partly due to rushing his shot. Teams are really coming at him hard on his 3 point shot. Another thing that I've noticed is that he's shooting more push/set shots than jump shots. If I remember correctly in the Michigan State game he used the jumper much of the time. I'm sure the coaches have worked with him and showed clips of his shooting. However, I'm proud of Grayson for hustle and defense. Many players would be sulking and not be giving it up for the team.

As for Duval, I've just grown accustomed to his up and down play, hoping that his up play will be much better than his down play. So far, so good. GoDuke!

kAzE
01-16-2018, 10:17 AM
This is, of course, picking at nits - particularly since I agree with the overall thrust of your point - but Duval was decidedly not 100% at the line. He had two misses (of front-ends of one-and-ones) that were so bad that it enabled him to get his own rebound; he missed a third once the game was fully in hand.

Yeah, but he grabbed both offensive boards and then converted a reverse layup off of the 2nd one. That's just about the most Duval play there is. Completely screw up and then make up for it with a spectacular play. It's a net positive. You just have to live with it.

thedukelamere
01-16-2018, 10:18 AM
Anyone have a gif or video of this play? I jumped out of my seat, it was incredible. Hoping to see a replay.

https://thumbs.gfycat.com/LittleSoupyCatfish-small.gif

devildeac
01-16-2018, 10:18 AM
Heck of a comeback.

Can't wait for a few years when old fogeys like K and Larranage are retiring along with Roy, Boeheim and Hamilton are gone :)


Be careful what you wish for. I have it on good authority that all 5 of these coaches will be replaced by Brad Stevens. Not sure how he is going to handle coaching five teams at once, but I am sure he will find some way to lead all of them to the Final Four each year.:)

Plus, Keatts will be loooong gone, having landed a lifetime deal at KU. :rolleyes:

CDu
01-16-2018, 10:27 AM
It looked to me like Duval was way, way short on both of those attempts, to the point that the ball shot right back at him in a manner that the defense doesnít expect. But youíre right, generally a player on the defending team is assigned to box out the shooter, and Miami just didnít do this. Really bizarre sequence.

Minor quibble, but Duval was way short on the first one, and long on the second one. But in both cases, even a mild attempt at boxing out the shooter gets the job done for Miami. Those were a couple of brain farts by them for sure. It wasn't even like Duval had to work hard to get those rebounds.

CDu
01-16-2018, 10:28 AM
https://thumbs.gfycat.com/LittleSoupyCatfish-small.gif

Yep. These are the moments that remind me of Elton Brand when I see Carter.

Matches
01-16-2018, 10:28 AM
Minor quibble, but Duval was way short on the first one, and long on the second one. But in both cases, even a mild attempt at boxing out the shooter gets the job done for Miami. Those were a couple of brain farts by them for sure. It wasn't even like Duval had to work hard to get those rebounds.

It was truly insane that it happened the second time, in that situation. I had never seen that happen twice in a row like that.

mkirsh
01-16-2018, 10:31 AM
Yep. These are the moments that remind me of Elton Brand when I see Carter.

I like that comp. Carter is like the modern era Elton Brand with range out the three point line.

kAzE
01-16-2018, 10:38 AM
I like that comp. Carter is like the modern era Elton Brand with range out the three point line.

I've said this before, but I think Carter is Al Horford. Brand was different. I think Bonzie Colson reminds me more of Brand than Wendell.

Truth&Justise
01-16-2018, 10:39 AM
I like that comp. Carter is like the modern era Elton Brand with range out the three point line.

The player he's reminded me most of is Al Horford. I've also seen comps in this thread to Paul Millsap.

When you're getting compared to Brand/Millsap/Horford, you know you're a damn good--and versatile--player.

flyingdutchdevil
01-16-2018, 10:40 AM
This is, of course, picking at nits - particularly since I agree with the overall thrust of your point - but Duval was decidedly not 100% at the line. He had two misses (of front-ends of one-and-ones) that were so bad that it enabled him to get his own rebound; he missed a third once the game was fully in hand.

Whoops. Thanks for the catch.

flyingdutchdevil
01-16-2018, 10:43 AM
I've said this before, but I think Carter is Al Horford. Brand was different. I think Bonzie Colson reminds me more of Brand than Wendell.

Horford's three best traits today are 3pt shooting, defense, and playmaking. With the exception of 3pt shooting, I'm not sure I see Carter as a Horford type. Maybe earlier in his career, when Horford's best traits were defense, rebounding, and a variety of shots inside the 3pt line (again, sans defense).

I know Carter had an amazing game defensively against Miami, but I'm not ready to call him Horford-esque in that department.

kAzE
01-16-2018, 10:45 AM
Horford's three best traits today are 3pt shooting, defense, and playmaking. With the exception of 3pt shooting, I'm not sure I see Carter as a Horford type. Maybe earlier in his career, when Horford's best traits were defense, rebounding, and a variety of shots inside the 3pt line (again, sans defense).

I know Carter had an amazing game defensively against Miami, but I'm not ready to call him Horford-esque in that department.

Well he's obviously not current day Horford. No college freshman is that good. I'm talking about Florida Horford. And Wendell is actually a pretty nice passer. It's still a developing part of his game, but he hasn't really had as much freedom to just slowly operate in the paint like Horford does due to lack of shooting on this Duke roster.

wilson
01-16-2018, 10:45 AM
Just glad we haven't played any games with The Rock basketballs anymore this year. Surprised we haven't used Wilson basketballs yet either as it's the official sponsor of basketballs for the NCAA Tournament. Always surprised more teams don't utilize them or the invitational tournaments don't use them more. Obviously PK80 used Nike basketballs but I still am surprised we don't see Wilson basketballs in the regular season more being those are the kind we will always use in the NCAA Tournament.Wilson has the best balls.

devildeac
01-16-2018, 10:56 AM
Wilson has the best balls.

But, do they get Schweddy?

(never mind-I really don't want this analyzed/scrutinized)

Channing
01-16-2018, 11:05 AM
Seen a ton of props for Carter and Trent (rightfully so) and great stuff about TD once he got out of the turnover rut and coming down the stretch.

I want to make sure we all take a second to appreciate that with 4 freshmen on the court, our senior who is a former AA, who is struggling mightily with his offense, who has taken a second/third/fourth/fifth place seat on this team offensively so his freshmen teammates can shine made one of the most incredible hustle plays I think I have ever seen. That play going into halftime should not have happened, and but for Grayson literally laying it all on the line it doesn't.

Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15
01-16-2018, 11:11 AM
4) Allen is really struggling to find balance. Raise your hand if you thought Allen would have the least number of shots of the starters two games in a row? Allen gives up open shots for some risky passes. Allen doesn't drive into traffic as much (which may be a good thing). The thing is, I'm not sure if Allen needs to find balance. I want Allen to do, on a nightly basis, what is best for the team. If that's scoring, done. If that's distribution, done. If it's drawing the defense so it opens Trent, done. I like Allen who isn't able to find a balance. Makes every game exciting.


This can't be overstated. Allen is going through a shooting slump, as happens sometimes. But instead of "shooting through it" (a dubious strategy in my book at best) with so many other great offensive options on the team, or getting frustrated and emotional (please no), he is finding other ways to affect the game through passing, defense, and hustle plays.

The shot will return, mark my words.

Channing
01-16-2018, 11:11 AM
Well he's obviously not current day Horford. No college freshman is that good. I'm talking about Florida Horford. And Wendell is actually a pretty nice passer. It's still a developing part of his game, but he hasn't really had as much freedom to just slowly operate in the paint like Horford does due to lack of shooting on this Duke roster.

Offensively and inside the arc he reminds me of Jahlil Okafor (with the handle and the footwork). Of course he has better touch on his jumpers than Jah ever had. Defensively I see a good bit of Jahlil's cousin, Emeka. He is still working on positioning, but they play defense similarly (in my mind). Not a bad combination.

MChambers
01-16-2018, 11:12 AM
Yep. These are the moments that remind me of Elton Brand when I see Carter.

Reminded me of what Brand did to some big at Maryland in 1999. Just took the ball away.

Steven43
01-16-2018, 11:28 AM
I wish we could get Grayson back on track offensively.
Unfortunately, he may be shooting himself out of the first round.

FerryFor50
01-16-2018, 11:42 AM
The player he's reminded me most of is Al Horford. I've also seen comps in this thread to Paul Millsap.

When you're getting compared to Brand/Millsap/Horford, you know you're a damn good--and versatile--player.

I brought up Milsap, but Horford is a good comp, too. But I feel like Milsap is a bit more rugged than Horford, which is how I also feel about Carter. Either way, really good comps. :)

CDu
01-16-2018, 11:47 AM
Duke and Miami really have an uphill climb remaining in the league to ascend to where they were picked in the 2017-2018 preseason media poll. Duke currently sits at 5th and was picked 1st and Miami currently sits at 9th and was picked 4th. It's really starting to get log jammed in the middle of the league standings too. Lots of pretty even 2-3 loss teams currently but also some 1 loss teams (GT, Louisville) that I feel Duke is better than and the jury is still out on Clemson, too.

There is a pretty good chance we are in a tie for second before we face off against Pitt. I would expect us to be in second by the end of the weekend. Though I hope we'll be in third thanks to Clemson's upset of UNC in Chapel Hill tonight. ;)

But I expect Georgia Tech to lose at least once if not twice this week (@UVa, vs UNC), Louisville has a tough game @ND, and Clemson has @UNC and home vs ND.

Lar77
01-16-2018, 11:50 AM
I'm loving the Zombie Duke, or Terminator Duke, or Jason Duke, except that they always lose at the end.

Carter played his best game and that block/takeaway was just remarkable (I wonder if a mere block would have resulted in a blocking foul, even though Carter's form was nearly perfect - refs tend to just blow the whistle on that type of play); in fact, that was the game winner.

Worried about MB3's shoulder, but Duke medicine magic will do wonders.

Speaking of Duke medicine magic, just 2 days ago Trent Jr. was mostly dead. He's scored 49 points since then?

Trevon is taking years off my life, but I think that's his style.

Kedsy is right about Grayson's shot, but he seems to make up for it in other ways.

But where is the bench? It was refreshing to watch Capel coach and give these guys some run. Different game, different opponent, but the bench guys have to step up as well.

Virginia is in 2 weeks. Another Irresistible force against an immovable object type of game.

This team is fun to watch but it is shortening my life expectancy.

CameronDuke
01-16-2018, 11:53 AM
There is a pretty good chance we are in a tie for second before we face off against Pitt. I would expect us to be in second by the end of the weekend. Though I hope we'll be in third thanks to Clemson's upset of UNC in Chapel Hill tonight. ;)

But I expect Georgia Tech to lose at least once if not twice this week (@UVa, vs UNC), Louisville has a tough game @ND, and Clemson has @UNC and home vs ND.

Agree we should move up this week. I expect GT to lose to UVa like you said but the game is actually being played at GT on Thursday and not at UVa. I don't think GT will win regardless but it helps them for the game to be at home I guess. I also hope Clemson finally gets a win in Chapel Hill tonight.

CDu
01-16-2018, 12:00 PM
Agree we should move up this week. I expect GT to lose to UVa like you said but the game is actually being played at GT on Thursday and not at UVa. I don't think GT will win regardless but it helps them for the game to be at home I guess. I also hope Clemson finally gets a win in Chapel Hill tonight.

Sorry, I had those flipped. Vs UVa in Atlanta, @UNC. So they are slightly more likely to win Thursday, and less likely to beat UNC (since not at home).
Should still be two losses for them though.

CDu
01-16-2018, 12:03 PM
But where is the bench? It was refreshing to watch Capel coach and give these guys some run. Different game, different opponent, but the bench guys have to step up as well.

Much better opponent. The bench without DeLaurier and Bolden is a HUGE step down in talent. Against an atrocious Wake defense, we could get away with those guys playing more. And they played really well. But to expect those guys to make major contributions on the road against a top-25 opponent is asking a bit much.

Hoping we get one or both of those guys back before our game against UVa.

BandAlum83
01-16-2018, 12:09 PM
Not sure the nickname will stick, although I kinda like it. Fun article, though.

https://www.cbssports.com/college-basketball/news/zombie-duke-proves-no-lead-is-safe-in-stunning-comeback-victory-at-miami/

Great read, I loved it! I especially loved this line and the embedded clip:



Carter's block with 1:35 to Carter's block with 1:35 to go in a 73-70 situation (Carter's block with 1:35 to go in a 73-70 situation (Duke leading) was the soul-snatching change of possession for Miami. Just a "I'll take that, thank you" kind of block.

The writer went on to say Carter treated the 6-11 Huell like a little brother.

Funny.

I still say I don't believe the stats. I think carter had 17 blocks and a triple double. At least it seemed that way.

flyingdutchdevil
01-16-2018, 12:11 PM
Allen was useless as a scorer. Bagley was held to "only" 13 points. And yet we beat a top 25 team. On the road.

THAT is how this team develops.

Love it. Really, really love it.

jv001
01-16-2018, 12:14 PM
Much better opponent. The bench without DeLaurier and Bolden is a HUGE step down in talent. Against an atrocious Wake defense, we could get away with those guys playing more. And they played really well. But to expect those guys to make major contributions on the road against a top-25 opponent is asking a bit much.

Hoping we get one or both of those guys back before our game against UVa.

The difference was apparent in how Miami closed out on Robinson, where as he was wide open for 3s against Wake. Like you, I don't think Robinson, Vrank, White and Goldwire will help much against the better teams. GoDuke!

UrinalCake
01-16-2018, 01:38 PM
I appreciate all the descriptions and breakdowns of our defense in this thread. FWIW, SB Nation thinks we were playing a 3-2 zone.

link (https://www.stateoftheu.com/2018/1/16/16895142/miami-hurricanes-basketball-falls-to-duke-blue-devils-jim-larranaga-coach-k)

jimsumner
01-16-2018, 01:41 PM
The difference was apparent in how Miami closed out on Robinson, where as he was wide open for 3s against Wake. Like you, I don't think Robinson, Vrank, White and Goldwire will help much against the better teams. GoDuke!

Robinson was open against Pitt. Neither Wake nor Miami gave him much room since then.

luburch
01-16-2018, 01:45 PM
I appreciate all the descriptions and breakdowns of our defense in this thread. FWIW, SB Nation thinks we were playing a 3-2 zone.

link (https://www.stateoftheu.com/2018/1/16/16895142/miami-hurricanes-basketball-falls-to-duke-blue-devils-jim-larranaga-coach-k)

Fairly confident for 1-2 possessions the team was in 3-2 zone following a timeout. They didn't stay in it for long, but it was noticeably different than having the bottom-man in a zone push-up if there's no one in the corner/baseline.

Wheat/"/"/"
01-16-2018, 01:46 PM
I thought both teams overall played poorly, but Duke's superior talent and toughness, especially some timely shooting by Trent, saved the day on the road...where any win is a good win.

Miami is a horribly coached team at this point, no sugar coating it. From the beginning it was good that they were aggressive, but they showed no discipline or leadership. Bad shots, no box outs. They were pitiful.

In the 2nd half when Duke was down 13 and went zone they were totally lost on how to attack it. How could a zone from Duke surprise a team at this point in the season? They were totally unprepared. They stood around lost and just jacked up shots.

When Trent hit the 2nd three, they gave up, even tho they still had the lead. You could see in in their body language. They were shell shocked. There was no leadership on the court or the bench.

The difference between games was startling watching the KS/WVA game after. The level of team play was so much higher in the 2nd game. Both teams had five guys working together at high intensity in that one, while it seemed that while Duke/Miami guys played with intensity, and it was a fun game to watch, it was more about the individual talent on the floor. Lots of one on one plays.

Duke is winning, but not playing well. Counting so much on individual offensive performances to win is going to catch up with them when it all gets serious if they can't find a way to communicate and play better team defense.

flyingdutchdevil
01-16-2018, 01:49 PM
I thought both teams overall played poorly, but Duke's superior talent and toughness, along with some timely individual shooting by Trent, saved the day on the road...where any win is a good win.

Miami is a horribly coached team at this point, no sugar coating it. From the beginning it was good that they were aggressive, but they showed no discipline or leadership. Bad shots, no box outs. They were pitiful.

In the 2nd half when Duke was down 13 and went zone they were totally lost on how to attack it. How could a zone from Duke surprise a team at this point in the season? They were totally unprepared. They stood around lost and just jacked up shots.

When Trent hit the 2nd three, they gave up, even tho they still had the lead. You could see in in their body language. They were shell shocked. There was no leadership on the court or the bench.

The difference between games was startling watching the KS/WVA game after. The level of team play was so much higher in the 2nd game. Both teams had five guys working together at high intensity in that one, while it seemed that while Duke/Miami guys played with intensity, and it was a fun game to watch, it was more about the individual talent on the floor. Lots of one on one plays.

Duke is winning, but not playing well. Counting so much on individual offensive performances to win is going to catch up with them when it all gets serious if they can't find a way to communicate and play better team defense.

You clearly haven't seen Duke play much, because the defense yesterday was infinitely better than early in the ACC season.

I'll take our highly talented team that counts on "individual offensive performances to win" in January over a low talented squad that can't fight against the big dogs any day. Come March, this Duke team will stand alone.

Wheat/"/"/"
01-16-2018, 01:52 PM
You clearly haven't seen Duke play much, because the defense yesterday was infinitely better than early in the ACC season.

I'll take our highly talented team that counts on "individual offensive performances to win" in January over a low talented squad that can't fight against the big dogs any day. Come March, this Duke team will stand alone.

The second half zone defense looked pretty good, and especially so against a team that had no clue or desire on how to attack it. . The man 2 man, not so much the entire game.

Dukehky
01-16-2018, 01:58 PM
I was pretty pleased with the bench play last night. With the exception of Justin Robinson's travel, they didn't screw up at all. Survived the stretch where Marvin went back to the locker room and Duval had 2 fouls. They managed the game pretty well. Jack came in and fought on the boards, even though I'm not sure he got a rebound. I was surprised O'Connell didn't get a little more look in the second half when Duval was absolutely pooping himself on the offensive end. Get him to sit down, settle down, then come back in. But man, he was really good closing the game, and he has been in pretty much every game where he played a stretch abysmally. I guess that's K saying that his potential to turn a game is worth the risk of his implosions. Based on the history of this game and FSU, I'm inclined to agree. Also, O'Connell wasn't replacing Gary with the way he was shooting and Grayson was busting his butt all night.

I think Bolden and DeLaurier obviously have a lot to offer and expect them to retain their positions coming off the bench, and I wonder what that means for the guys who have played well in their absence. Justin can't stay in front of people on slides, but he actually recovers really well at the rim. He gets a lot of blocks and contests after the ball handler gets by him. I think that he'll see some minutes in upcoming games, especially considering who they are against, and if he continues to do that and shoot and make open shots, he'll continue to get minutes. I've actually been pretty impressed with Jack. That dude absolutely attacks the glass, which is really useful when we don't have explosive rebounders to spell Bagley and Carter, but when Javin and Marques come back, that's no longer the case, I expect his minutes to decline. Alex and Jordan I think are going to stay about the same.

This brings me to Grayson. I found myself being a real prisoner of the moment and screaming at the TV because he just could not get one to drop last night, and it was infuriating (I'm sure it was for him). In the first half he would take semi contested 3's in transition from the corner. If he makes them, then we're fine, but he missed, and the rotations in transition were bad because of it. We essentially had 4 flat across the baseline and Duval at the FT line. If those shots miss and create a long rebound, there is no one back. I want him to shoot, but when it doesn't work, it puts us in a bad position because Bagley and Carter and Trent attack the glass and Duval is not a good transition defender, no one is when they're the only one back on defense. However, Grayson was an absolute dawg last night in every other facet defensively. He fought so hard. Even when he fell down, he made really good plays. If he and Trent get it going, people are in trouble.

I would also like to credit Bagley for playing through an injury. His shoulder popped out of its socket and it obviously threw him off. I wouldn't be surprised if he rested during the Pitt game (at least only plays like 20 or so minutes).

Carter. My God. his rim protection was absolutely phenomenal. Ben Swain mentioned this on Twitter, that when he got scored on at the rim, it was because Trent got lost on a ball screen and ended up above the ball handler, which can't happen. But Carter's verticality was absolutely perfect. He was a monster. Not just on the blocks, but on the contests as well. I was pleased to see the refs acknowledging his verticality and his ability to not pick up fouls on the contests. He's obviously been coached on that, and it was great. If he can sag like that in the zone as well as man to man and continue to protect the rim, it covers up a lot of our defensive deficiencies.

Proud of the team, and without that 11 minute stretch where we threw them the ball every other possession, we win that game by 15.

Troublemaker
01-16-2018, 02:05 PM
I thought both teams overall played poorly, but Duke's superior talent and toughness, especially some timely shooting by Trent, saved the day on the road...where any win is a good win.

Miami is a horribly coached team at this point, no sugar coating it. From the beginning it was good that they were aggressive, but they showed no discipline or leadership. Bad shots, no box outs. They were pitiful.

In the 2nd half when Duke was down 13 and went zone they were totally lost on how to attack it. How could a zone from Duke surprise a team at this point in the season? They were totally unprepared. They stood around lost and just jacked up shots.

When Trent hit the 2nd three, they gave up, even tho they still had the lead. You could see in in their body language. They were shell shocked. There was no leadership on the court or the bench.

The difference between games was startling watching the KS/WVA game after. The level of team play was so much higher in the 2nd game. Both teams had five guys working together at high intensity in that one, while it seemed that while Duke/Miami guys played with intensity, and it was a fun game to watch, it was more about the individual talent on the floor. Lots of one on one plays.

Duke is winning, but not playing well. Counting so much on individual offensive performances to win is going to catch up with them when it all gets serious if they can't find a way to communicate and play better team defense.


The second half zone defense looked pretty good, and especially so against a team that had no clue or desire on how to attack it. . The man 2 man, not so much the entire game.

Would you like to make a pie bet on whether Duke or UNC finishes with the better ACC record? Surely there is no way UNC could finish below a team that plays 1-on-1, doesn't work together, can't communicate and play team defense, and can only win because the horribly-coached opponent has no idea how to attack a "pretty good zone"? Surely UNC will take care of this bet by sweeping Duke since Roy is a much better coach than the horrible Jim Larranaga.

Billy Dat
01-16-2018, 02:20 PM
This brings me to Grayson. I found myself being a real prisoner of the moment and screaming at the TV because he just could not get one to drop last night, and it was infuriating (I'm sure it was for him). In the first half he would take semi contested 3's in transition from the corner. If he makes them, then we're fine, but he missed, and the rotations in transition were bad because of it. We essentially had 4 flat across the baseline and Duval at the FT line. If those shots miss and create a long rebound, there is no one back. I want him to shoot, but when it doesn't work, it puts us in a bad position because Bagley and Carter and Trent attack the glass and Duval is not a good transition defender, no one is when they're the only one back on defense. However, Grayson was an absolute dawg last night in every other facet defensively. He fought so hard. Even when he fell down, he made really good plays. If he and Trent get it going, people are in trouble.

I, too, was grousing about Grayson during the game. Doug Gottlieb called the game for radio and wrote it up for The Athletic ($). Here's his take on Allen, which offers some perspective I had not heard before:

https://theathletic.com/213521/2018/01/16/gottlieb-what-we-can-take-from-dukes-win-over-miami/ ($)

"Allen is just a guy, but I donít think thatís his fault. Duke doesnít run much of anything and when it does, the play is usually not for him. Allen plays hard, gets his hands on a lot of balls and hunts open jumpers, but the ball rarely come his way. He needs a better finishing package, as he is used to just dunking on dudes. When Miami made him be creative, he struggled. Trent has established himself as a go-to shooter, and Krzyzewski runs plays for the freshman. As good as Duval is, he doesnít really know how to push the ball and create shots for others, especially Allen. Duvalís limitations as a shooter keep the Blue Devils from playing much pick and roll, and they are limited to some basic sets, transition and general ball movement. All of this affects Allen, who seems to be a good soldier despite the lack of production. He knows how to read screens and move without the basketball; he just isnít in an offense that features him, and his teammates arenít looking for him like they used to."

luburch
01-16-2018, 02:27 PM
I, too, was grousing about Grayson during the game. Doug Gottlieb called the game for radio and wrote it up for The Athletic ($). Here's his take on Allen, which offers some perspective I had not heard before:

https://theathletic.com/213521/2018/01/16/gottlieb-what-we-can-take-from-dukes-win-over-miami/ ($)

"Allen is just a guy, but I don’t think that’s his fault. Duke doesn’t run much of anything and when it does, the play is usually not for him. Allen plays hard, gets his hands on a lot of balls and hunts open jumpers, but the ball rarely come his way. He needs a better finishing package, as he is used to just dunking on dudes. When Miami made him be creative, he struggled. Trent has established himself as a go-to shooter, and Krzyzewski runs plays for the freshman. As good as Duval is, he doesn’t really know how to push the ball and create shots for others, especially Allen. Duval’s limitations as a shooter keep the Blue Devils from playing much pick and roll, and they are limited to some basic sets, transition and general ball movement. All of this affects Allen, who seems to be a good soldier despite the lack of production. He knows how to read screens and move without the basketball; he just isn’t in an offense that features him, and his teammates aren’t looking for him like they used to."

I was just about to post this (even if there are a few facts off in the article) and I think the parts in bold are the most important. Teams, to this point, don't have to guard Duval on the 3 point line. It lets them help down on Bagley and Carter. It also clogs the driving lanes for Grayson. His shot isn't falling right now, it happens, and he rarely has a clear lane to the basic. His offense will come around, but this team won't always need him to be a scorer. That's a good thing.

uh_no
01-16-2018, 02:30 PM
I, too, was grousing about Grayson during the game. Doug Gottlieb called the game for radio and wrote it up for The Athletic ($). Here's his take on Allen, which offers some perspective I had not heard before:

https://theathletic.com/213521/2018/01/16/gottlieb-what-we-can-take-from-dukes-win-over-miami/ ($)

"Allen is just a guy, but I donít think thatís his fault. Duke doesnít run much of anything and when it does, the play is usually not for him. Allen plays hard, gets his hands on a lot of balls and hunts open jumpers, but the ball rarely come his way. He needs a better finishing package, as he is used to just dunking on dudes. When Miami made him be creative, he struggled. Trent has established himself as a go-to shooter, and Krzyzewski runs plays for the freshman. As good as Duval is, he doesnít really know how to push the ball and create shots for others, especially Allen. Duvalís limitations as a shooter keep the Blue Devils from playing much pick and roll, and they are limited to some basic sets, transition and general ball movement. All of this affects Allen, who seems to be a good soldier despite the lack of production. He knows how to read screens and move without the basketball; he just isnít in an offense that features him, and his teammates arenít looking for him like they used to."

Yes and no.

With 2 bigs, the lane will generally be way too clogged for his driving skills to work well, and he was very hesitant to take shots that he normally fires without question. He knows when he's in a slump he's not the best option....so he just racks up boards and assists and plays great defense instead. Sounds a lot like senior leadership to me.

azzefkram
01-16-2018, 02:38 PM
What a way to end the game. I thought all the starters stepped up big during that run. Unfortunately I missed the first half, but the half court D I saw looked more competent. They do seem comfortable in the zone. The offense was a bit uneven but it was facing a top 10 defensive unit on its home court.

Fortunately I missed chat and the in-game thread. I find it a tad depressing that player in the top 20 in the league for 2pt%, 3pt%, ARate, eFG% and TS% gets piled upon for every minor miscue. I try to enjoy all the good Tre brings to the team instead of focusing on the odd forced pass or silly reach-in foul.

Zooks
01-16-2018, 03:05 PM
dukelifer's comment from MOTM about Trent's 3 being a defibrillator was spot on. After that 3 went in, the team went next level in focus, energy and confidence on both ends- like they sucked it out of the Miami players. Amazing transformation.

I think this is the first time Duke has had 2 different freshman have 30 point games during the season..??
I'm hoping it's not Trent's last one

CDu
01-16-2018, 03:19 PM
Miami is a horribly coached team at this point, no sugar coating it. From the beginning it was good that they were aggressive, but they showed no discipline or leadership. Bad shots, no box outs. They were pitiful.

Not sure how closely you were watching, because Miami held the best offensive rebounding team in the country to just SEVEN offensive rebounds (in 32 available). They must have been doing something right with regards to boxing out.


In the 2nd half when Duke was down 13 and went zone they were totally lost on how to attack it. How could a zone from Duke surprise a team at this point in the season? They were totally unprepared. They stood around lost and just jacked up shots.

I doubt they were surprised by the zone. My suspicion is that they were surprised by the length and tenacity of that zone. This team - especially with Bagley and Duval playing it - can cause havoc. It's not a passive zone.


When Trent hit the 2nd three, they gave up, even tho they still had the lead. You could see in in their body language. They were shell shocked. There was no leadership on the court or the bench.

Giving up a 15-0 run will do that to you. Especially when the other team is playing hard, like Duke was.


Duke is winning, but not playing well. Counting so much on individual offensive performances to win is going to catch up with them when it all gets serious if they can't find a way to communicate and play better team defense.

This was, as a team, our worst offensive performance of the season. But it came against one of the best defensive teams in the country, and the second-best defense we will face this year, and on the road. And we won fairly comfortably. So, yeah, if this is our floor offensively, I think we're going to be just fine.

Also, not sure what you mean by "individual offensive performances". Someone has to score points. Trent hit open 3s. That's what you expect shooters to do. When we stopped getting sloppy with our passes, our offense looked very good.

Also, our defense was fantastic. The only time Miami scored with any efficiency was when we committed turnovers. Aside from that? We were outstanding, in both man-to-man AND zone. The difference late in the second half wasn't just the switch to zone (though that helped), it was that we stopped giving them transition opportunities with our turnovers.

Yeah, forgive me if I don't share your opinion of this game.

kAzE
01-16-2018, 03:30 PM
Yeah I'm not sure "standing around and jacking up shots" was all Miami did. I seem to remember them getting in the paint and being forcefully rejected by Wendell Carter about 20 times.

Devilwin
01-16-2018, 03:31 PM
This is my first post on the DBR boards. Iím a long time Duke fan Ė since the í86 Dawkins-Henderson-Alarie-Bilas team.

I just had to re-watch that incredible comeback, which is easily one of my favorite 5 minutes of the season. Hereís the play-by-play:
- 7:45 Ė Grayson misses a lay up and Miami scores on another transition basket. Duke is down 13, 66-53. Duval finds Trent in the corner for a 3: 66-56.
- 7:15 Ė Duke is in zone. Wendell blocks Huellís dunk. Bagley rebounds it. Duval almost loses the ball, then finds Trent for another 3: 66-59.
- 6:35 Ė Miami misses another lay up. Bagley gets the rebound. Bagley scores on an and-one and hits the free throw: 66-62.
- 6:02 Ė Grayson steals the ball from Brown and dunks. 66-64.
- 5:35 Ė Wendell blocks Brownís drive.
- 5:25 Ė Miami misses a 3.
- 5:10 Ė Wendell ties it on a drive: 66-66.
- 4:50 Ė Wendell blocks another drive.
- 4:40 Ė Duval hits a layup, causing the floor slap: 68-66. Duke on a 15-0 run.

Here were the keys to the comeback:

1) This may be obvious but our zone defense was highly effective. Our players have gotten better with the zone, rotating over and covering. Carter is going up, vertically with two hands and either blocking drives or altering shots. This caused a lot of stagnation for Miamiís offense with players standing around or trying to play hero ball.

2) Our defensive rebounding is better when we play zone. During those three minutes, we got almost every missed Miami shot (I believe we got 6 out of 7 possible defensive rebounds). This is because when we play zone, our positioning is better.

3) Our freshmen can really score. Nuff said.

Really impressed with how our team pulled together and locked down on D. Go duke!
Really good take. I concur with all of it.

CDu
01-16-2018, 03:31 PM
I, too, was grousing about Grayson during the game. Doug Gottlieb called the game for radio and wrote it up for The Athletic ($). Here's his take on Allen, which offers some perspective I had not heard before:

https://theathletic.com/213521/2018/01/16/gottlieb-what-we-can-take-from-dukes-win-over-miami/ ($)

"Allen is just a guy, but I donít think thatís his fault. Duke doesnít run much of anything and when it does, the play is usually not for him. Allen plays hard, gets his hands on a lot of balls and hunts open jumpers, but the ball rarely come his way. He needs a better finishing package, as he is used to just dunking on dudes. When Miami made him be creative, he struggled. Trent has established himself as a go-to shooter, and Krzyzewski runs plays for the freshman. As good as Duval is, he doesnít really know how to push the ball and create shots for others, especially Allen. Duvalís limitations as a shooter keep the Blue Devils from playing much pick and roll, and they are limited to some basic sets, transition and general ball movement. All of this affects Allen, who seems to be a good soldier despite the lack of production. He knows how to read screens and move without the basketball; he just isnít in an offense that features him, and his teammates arenít looking for him like they used to."

I think I mostly agree with this, except for the parts about running plays for Trent and his teammates not looking for him like they used to. I think it all boils down to a few things for Allen:

1. We play two bigs, both of whom are VERY good offensively. That means there is always a defender in the lane, usually multiple of them. Allen has never had that situation before. As a sophomore, we played 4-out, 1-in, and that one (Plumlee/Jeter) was usually just running around setting screens outside anyway. So he always had driving lanes. Last year, it was Jefferson/Giles/Bolden filling the big man role, and again they were usually screen setters. With Ingram at the 4 in 2016 and Tatum there in 2017, Allen had way more driving opportunities. With Bagley and Carter, the lane is much more congested, making drives much more difficult.

This is exacerbated when combined with Allen's skillset limitations. He's largely a straight-line drive player. Probably because he was always a better athlete than the opposition growing up, he never had to develop the nuanced ballhandling and creative moves to get buckets at the basket. He would just drive wildly at the rim, and because he was so daring and so athletic he would make it work. Well, when the lane is more congested, it's harder to do that. You need those hesitation dribbles, those subtle head/shoulder fakes, the spins, the crossovers, etc. And that's just not in Allen's game. So on this team, his scoring is largely tied to his perimeter shooting.

Contrast him with someone like Kennard, who I think would be a better scoring fit on this year's team. Kennard seems to be a better pure shooter than Allen, and he has a much more advanced scoring skillset off the dribble. So from that perspective, I think he'd be more effective in this offense than Allen.

Of course, Allen deserves credit for the things he does well too. He's a better passer than Kennard, and on this team his ability and willingness to create for others is critical. Duval has had his ups and downs, and if we didn't have Allen alongside him I think we'd suffer more speed bumps than we have offensively. But our offense has largely not missed a beat with Allen at PG, and in some cases may be even more effective (small sample size alert).

DukieInBrasil
01-16-2018, 03:33 PM
1)
3) Duval may be the most underappreciated Dukie in the modern era. Tyler Thornton, David McClure, Lance Thomas, and Matt Jones are all players who were underappreciated. But none had the offensive dynamism that Duval holds. The kid had 17 points, 8 assists, 5 rebounds, and shot 100% from 3pt land and FT land. Oh, and he did this on 11 shots total. So yeah, let the haters hate. And for those of you who bring up Trevon's 5 TOs, Grayson had 4. And you don't see anyone throwing him under the bus. For the love of God, please realize that Duval is a freshman playing the hardest position at Duke.
.

Trevon shot 1-4 FTs, for a 25% rate. Otherwise i agree, Trevon is playing well, and is a key reason why our offense is so good this year. He's also pretty good at getting steals or altering passes when we play zone.

Dukehky
01-16-2018, 03:36 PM
I think I mostly agree with this, except for the parts about running plays for Trent and his teammates not looking for him like they used to. I think it all boils down to a few things for Allen:

1. We play two bigs, both of whom are VERY good offensively. That means there is always a defender in the lane, usually multiple of them. Allen has never had that situation before. As a sophomore, we played 4-out, 1-in, and that one (Plumlee/Jeter) was usually just running around setting screens outside anyway. So he always had driving lanes. Last year, it was Jefferson/Giles/Bolden filling the big man role, and again they were usually screen setters. With Ingram at the 4 in 2016 and Tatum there in 2017, Allen had way more driving opportunities. With Bagley and Carter, the lane is much more congested, making drives much more difficult.

This is exacerbated when combined with Allen's skillset limitations. He's largely a straight-line drive player. Probably because he was always a better athlete than the opposition growing up, he never had to develop the nuanced ballhandling and creative moves to get buckets at the basket. He would just drive wildly at the rim, and because he was so daring and so athletic he would make it work. Well, when the lane is more congested, it's harder to do that. You need those hesitation dribbles, those subtle head/shoulder fakes, the spins, the crossovers, etc. And that's just not in Allen's game. So on this team, his scoring is largely tied to his perimeter shooting.

Contrast him with someone like Kennard, who I think would be a better scoring fit on this year's team. Kennard seems to be a better pure shooter than Allen, and he has a much more advanced scoring skillset off the dribble. So from that perspective, I think he'd be more effective in this offense than Allen.

Of course, Allen deserves credit for the things he does well too. He's a better passer than Kennard, and on this team his ability and willingness to create for others is critical. Duval has had his ups and downs, and if we didn't have Allen alongside him I think we'd suffer more speed bumps than we have offensively. But our offense has largely not missed a beat with Allen at PG, and in some cases may be even more effective (small sample size alert).

I know the assist numbers are better for Allen, but I disagree with this, although it doesn't really matter. Luke is really creative with the ball. Last year he had to score. Again, just wanted to give Luke props. There's a reason he was drafted in the lottery. He's a creative playmaker and I actually think is passing is an underrated facet of his game. Not to say Allen isn't good, but I would prefer Luke in that regard. You know where Allen has Kennard? That dude is an absolute crazy person competitively.

kAzE
01-16-2018, 03:38 PM
Contrast him with someone like Kennard, who I think would be a better scoring fit on this year's team. Kennard seems to be a better pure shooter than Allen, and he has a much more advanced scoring skillset off the dribble.

Man, I was literally thinking about this all morning. Kennard really would have enjoyed playing with Bagley and Carter. He has all the little crafty moves in the book to get himself open mid range shots, shots that he drained almost automatically last year. When you're the #1 offense in the country already and you add Luke Kennard, what does that make you? (Probably one of the all-time best college offenses, and significantly worse on defense)

Also, Luke and Grayson seemed to have really good chemistry with one another. Grayson played pretty well off of Luke and Jayson when he was full health last year, so I imagine he'd be struggling a bit less right now with Luke on the team.

But then again, do we get Bagley if Kennard stays? I think we might have been over the scholarship limit in that scenario, but then maybe J-Rob just goes 1 more year as a preferred walk-on to make it work.

CDu
01-16-2018, 03:39 PM
I know the assist numbers are better for Allen, but I disagree with this, although it doesn't really matter. Luke is really creative with the ball. Last year he had to score. Again, just wanted to give Luke props. There's a reason he was drafted in the lottery. He's a creative playmaker and I actually think is passing is an underrated facet of his game. Not to say Allen isn't good, but I would prefer Luke in that regard. You know where Allen has Kennard? That dude is an absolute crazy person competitively.

It may well be that Kennard is also a better passer. He's just never exhibited that at the college level, whereas Allen has done so for multiple seasons now. So I know that Allen can do it, while I can only speculate whether Kennard can.

But, it's neither here nor there. The focus was really about the scoring, and why Allen has struggled there. I just didn't want to have an entire post badmouthing our player, and doing the other things besides scoring is a notable contribution Allen has provided.

kAzE
01-16-2018, 03:50 PM
It may well be that Kennard is also a better passer. He's just never exhibited that at the college level, whereas Allen has done so for multiple seasons now. So I know that Allen can do it, while I can only speculate whether Kennard can.

But, it's neither here nor there. The focus was really about the scoring, and why Allen has struggled there. I just didn't want to have an entire post badmouthing our player, and doing the other things besides scoring is a notable contribution Allen has provided.

Grayson didn't really become a good passer until he was a junior. I thought there were a number of times his sophomore year where he was quite selfish with the ball and (as an example) went for a fast break dunk instead of making the easy dump off pass to the big running in transition. This year, he might have gone too far in the other direction, opting for difficult passes instead of taking the wide open lane all the way to the rim.

Just making a point that we don't really know how good a passer Luke would have become. Since this team wouldn't have relied on him as much for scoring (we desperately needed his scoring last year), he may have worked more on his passing this year. He's clearly a wonderful ball handler and processes information extremely quickly, so I don't have any doubts he could have been an excellent distributor at Duke.

CDu
01-16-2018, 03:51 PM
Grayson didn't really become a good passer until he was a junior. I thought there were a number of times his sophomore year where he was quite selfish with the ball and (as an example) went for a fast break dunk instead of making the easy dump off pass to the big running in transition.

Just making a point that we don't really know how good a passer Luke would have become. Since this team wouldn't have relied on him as much for scoring (we desperately needed his scoring last year), he may have worked more on his passing this year. He's clearly a wonderful ball handler and processes information extremely quickly, so I don't have any doubts he could have been an excellent distributor at Duke.

I don't disagree with any of this. Just saying that Allen HAS shown it at the college level, whereas Kennard has not. Certainly possible that Kennard would be as good or better a passer than Allen this year if he'd returned.

Wheat/"/"/"
01-16-2018, 03:56 PM
Would you like to make a pie bet on whether Duke or UNC finishes with the better ACC record? Surely there is no way UNC could finish below a team that plays 1-on-1, doesn't work together, can't communicate and play team defense, and can only win because the horribly-coached opponent has no idea how to attack a "pretty good zone"? Surely UNC will take care of this bet by sweeping Duke since Roy is a much better coach than the horrible Jim Larranaga.

Hey, I'm not saying UNC has been playing any better. Just calling it like I saw it last night.

kAzE
01-16-2018, 04:08 PM
Hey, I'm not saying UNC has been playing any better. Just calling it like I saw it last night.

Honestly, I've never heard anyone say a bad thing about Jim Larranaga until today. Everyone else seems to agree that he's a great coach. He can't really be faulted for not having the offensive talent to compete with Duke when we are locked in to Terminator mode with 5 NBA players on the floor. Also, I think you're dismissing our defense a little easily. Just because we're absolutely miserable at M2M doesn't mean we can't play some mean zone defense. We've been crazy good this year on defense when playing zone.

Could Miami have had a little better composure for few of those possessions? Yeah, but they decided to allow a freshman (Walker) to take some pretty big shots down the stretch, because he was the one who was hitting shot after shot from 3 up until that point. The shots just didn't drop for him during our comeback. But they also went inside a number of times only to be flatly denied by Wendell Carter. I give more credit to Duke's defense than Miami for melting down or anything like that. We're just a vastly more talented team and finally decided to show it in the last 10 minutes.

Wander
01-16-2018, 04:12 PM
Miami is a horribly coached team at this point, no sugar coating it. From the beginning it was good that they were aggressive, but they showed no discipline or leadership. Bad shots, no box outs. They were pitiful.

Larranaga is one of the better coaches in the ACC. Miami is not a good offensive team and doesn't have the shooting to match-up well against the zone. They are a very good defensive team, including discipline, leadership and all the other buzzwords.

Wheat/"/"/"
01-16-2018, 05:27 PM
Larranaga is one of the better coaches in the ACC. Miami is not a good offensive team and doesn't have the shooting to match-up well against the zone. They are a very good defensive team, including discipline, leadership and all the other buzzwords.

Maybe they were just having a bad night, but they sure didn't look very well coached in last nights game, in my opinion. And I saw no evidence of discipline or leadership from the players or the bench.

Of course, everyone's welcome to have their own opinion of the Miami team we saw last night.

CDu
01-16-2018, 05:44 PM
You donít hold the best offense in the country to one of their worst offensive game of the year if you arenít well-coached. You donít hold the best offensive rebounding team in the country to one of their worst offensive rebounding nights if you arenít well-coached.

hsheffield
01-17-2018, 05:56 AM
This can't be overstated. Allen is going through a shooting slump, as happens sometimes. But instead of "shooting through it" (a dubious strategy in my book at best) with so many other great offensive options on the team, or getting frustrated and emotional (please no), he is finding other ways to affect the game through passing, defense, and hustle plays.

The shot will return, mark my words.

I don't get what's going on w/ GA.

I was wondering if there was a physical problem but he was nailing a ton of 3s in the shoot arounds before the 1st and 2nd halves on Monday. He hit 10 straight before the second half...

hsheffield
01-17-2018, 06:07 AM
Seems like Carter has adjusted to the high physicality games more readily than Bagley. As beastly as Bagley is, he's actually more of a finesse player, and relies much more on quickness than strength.

MB was getting mauled by some eastern european looking guy. it was amazing: I thought I saw him foul MB 6 times in 30 seconds. Sometimes I think there's a decision to foul with impunity and challenge the refs to call them all.

Ballboy1998
01-17-2018, 07:08 AM
Maybe they were just having a bad night, but they sure didn't look very well coached in last nights game, in my opinion. And I saw no evidence of discipline or leadership from the players or the bench.

Of course, everyone's welcome to have their own opinion of the Miami team we saw last night.

Maybe they are SO well coached, their coach was just sitting on his hands saving timeouts so the team could have a learning experience. That is how it works, right?

House G
01-17-2018, 07:58 AM
I think I mostly agree with this, except for the parts about running plays for Trent and his teammates not looking for him like they used to. I think it all boils down to a few things for Allen:

1. We play two bigs, both of whom are VERY good offensively. That means there is always a defender in the lane, usually multiple of them. Allen has never had that situation before. As a sophomore, we played 4-out, 1-in, and that one (Plumlee/Jeter) was usually just running around setting screens outside anyway. So he always had driving lanes. Last year, it was Jefferson/Giles/Bolden filling the big man role, and again they were usually screen setters. With Ingram at the 4 in 2016 and Tatum there in 2017, Allen had way more driving opportunities. With Bagley and Carter, the lane is much more congested, making drives much more difficult.

This is exacerbated when combined with Allen's skillset limitations. He's largely a straight-line drive player. Probably because he was always a better athlete than the opposition growing up, he never had to develop the nuanced ballhandling and creative moves to get buckets at the basket. He would just drive wildly at the rim, and because he was so daring and so athletic he would make it work. Well, when the lane is more congested, it's harder to do that. You need those hesitation dribbles, those subtle head/shoulder fakes, the spins, the crossovers, etc. And that's just not in Allen's game. So on this team, his scoring is largely tied to his perimeter shooting.

Contrast him with someone like Kennard, who I think would be a better scoring fit on this year's team. Kennard seems to be a better pure shooter than Allen, and he has a much more advanced scoring skillset off the dribble. So from that perspective, I think he'd be more effective in this offense than Allen.

Of course, Allen deserves credit for the things he does well too. He's a better passer than Kennard, and on this team his ability and willingness to create for others is critical. Duval has had his ups and downs, and if we didn't have Allen alongside him I think we'd suffer more speed bumps than we have offensively. But our offense has largely not missed a beat with Allen at PG, and in some cases may be even more effective (small sample size alert).

To your point, Trent scored about 8-10 points (I believe) in the paint in the first half. Although his three point prowess is getting a lot of attention, his short jump shot is quite effective. He is so smooth and in control that he almost goes unnoticed at times. When Carter and Bagley were both in the game and playing in the low post, he understood that this opened up the lane if he could get past the man guarding him.

jv001
01-17-2018, 10:28 AM
I don't disagree with any of this. Just saying that Allen HAS shown it at the college level, whereas Kennard has not. Certainly possible that Kennard would be as good or better a passer than Allen this year if he'd returned.

And Grayson is a much better defender than Luke. Well at the college level anyway. GoDuke!

jv001
01-17-2018, 10:29 AM
Robinson was open against Pitt. Neither Wake nor Miami gave him much room since then.

Sorry had the games wrong. GoDuke!

devildeac
01-17-2018, 11:24 AM
MB was getting mauled by some eastern european looking guy. it was amazing: I thought I saw him foul MB 6 times in 30 seconds. Sometimes I think there's a decision to foul with impunity and challenge the refs to call them all.[

AKA the Louisville (or WVA or SC) defense. :rolleyes::mad:

Billy Dat
01-17-2018, 12:07 PM
RE: Grayson's role in the offense

We may also have a unique situation this year where offensive rebounds by Marvin and Wendell lead to them going back up with the ball rather than kicking it back out for 3s. Those second chance kick-out 3s have anecdotally been good opportunities - the shooter tends to be squared and relatively unguarded. It wouldn't surprise me if Grayson is getting fewer of those clean looks this year.

flyingdutchdevil
01-17-2018, 12:12 PM
And Grayson is a much better defender than Luke. Well at the college level anyway. GoDuke!

Not saying much there. Pretty sure Matt Jones's shadow is a better defender than Kennard.

Kennard was an offensive genius. No doubt about it. But his defense was whatever the opposite of a genius is.

jimsumner
01-17-2018, 03:53 PM
RE: Grayson's role in the offense

We may also have a unique situation this year where offensive rebounds by Marvin and Wendell lead to them going back up with the ball rather than kicking it back out for 3s. Those second chance kick-out 3s have anecdotally been good opportunities - the shooter tends to be squared and relatively unguarded. It wouldn't surprise me if Grayson is getting fewer of those clean looks this year.

K needs to hire Brian Zoubek to teach kick-outs-to-the-guards-after-an-O-board.

Then again, Bagley and Carter do seem to have a knack for converting those opportunities.

Billy Dat
01-17-2018, 06:00 PM
K needs to hire Brian Zoubek to teach kick-outs-to-the-guards-after-an-O-board. Then again, Bagley and Carter do seem to have a knack for converting those opportunities.

I think we agree that Marvin Bagley kicking out a rebound directly under the basket when he can rise for the yam is insane...then again, I never thought I'd see the day where a guy driving with a clear path to the bucket kicked out to a shooter for an open 3. I guess 3 is worth more than 2, but Marvin's o-boards and put backs, and frequently drawn fouls, are like the body blows that make an opposing fighter drop their hands in the later rounds.

MChambers
01-17-2018, 07:14 PM
I think we agree that Marvin Bagley kicking out a rebound directly under the basket when he can rise for the yam is insane..

Itís sweet when he rises for the yam!

Ultrarunner
01-17-2018, 07:22 PM
Itís sweet when he rises for the yam!

It's because he eats his spinach. He yam what he yam.

MChambers
01-17-2018, 07:36 PM
It's because he eats his spinach. He yam what he yam.

Grayson ate five steaks, so yams and spinach are whatís left.

kshepinthehouse
01-17-2018, 07:45 PM
Grayson ate five steaks, so yams and spinach are whatís left.

Put his five steaks with Jameis Winstonís soda from Burger King and crab legs from the grocery store and you really have a meal!

DukeDevil
01-17-2018, 08:12 PM
Kennard was an offensive genius. No doubt about it. But his defense was whatever the opposite of a genius is.

A stable genius?

I still feel quite confident that Grayson will get his in game rhythm back. It's clear that there is trepidation in his shot. He's not popping up with the same confidence and during several stretches he clearly looks to give up the ball when he gets it. I think some of that is his senior maturity looking to create for others, but some of it, so my untrained eye, is lost confidence. I think other teams are already scared of our offense, and when Grayson starts clicking offensively as well as the rest of his game is, it's a scary prospect for anyone else.

elvis14
01-17-2018, 08:53 PM
A stable genius?

I still feel quite confident that Grayson will get his in game rhythm back. It's clear that there is trepidation in his shot. He's not popping up with the same confidence and during several stretches he clearly looks to give up the ball when he gets it. I think some of that is his senior maturity looking to create for others, but some of it, so my untrained eye, is lost confidence. I think other teams are already scared of our offense, and when Grayson starts clicking offensively as well as the rest of his game is, it's a scary prospect for anyone else.

You and I must have the same untrained eye because I'm seeing what you're describing. During the Miami game there are multiple instances where Grayson passed on a shot he'd normally take. I'm looking forward to him returning to 'normal'.

BandAlum83
01-17-2018, 09:04 PM
Honestly, I've never heard anyone say a bad thing about Jim Larranaga until today. Everyone else seems to agree that he's a great coach. He can't really be faulted for not having the offensive talent to compete with Duke when we are locked in to Terminator mode with 5 NBA players on the floor. Also, I think you're dismissing our defense a little easily. Just because we're absolutely miserable at M2M doesn't mean we can't play some mean zone defense. We've been crazy good this year on defense when playing zone.

Could Miami have had a little better composure for few of those possessions? Yeah, but they decided to allow a freshman (Walker) to take some pretty big shots down the stretch, because he was the one who was hitting shot after shot from 3 up until that point. The shots just didn't drop for him during our comeback. But they also went inside a number of times only to be flatly denied by Wendell Carter. I give more credit to Duke's defense than Miami for melting down or anything like that. We're just a vastly more talented team and finally decided to show it in the last 10 minutes.

Wouldn't that be "Walking Dead" mode?

gofurman
01-17-2018, 09:49 PM
Maybe they were just having a bad night, but they sure didn't look very well coached in last nights game, in my opinion. And I saw no evidence of discipline or leadership from the players or the bench.

Of course, everyone's welcome to have their own opinion of the Miami team we saw last night.

larranage is def one of the better coaches in the ACC. He has K's number and won both the acc season and tourney a few years ago. Is short, he has Miami relelvant most years.

Wheat/"/"/"
01-18-2018, 12:41 PM
larranage is def one of the better coaches in the ACC. He has K's number and won both the acc season and tourney a few years ago. Is short, he has Miami relelvant most years.

Here's how I'd rate ACC coaches...Larranage is not in the upper half.

1) Roy Williams UNC
2) Coach K Duke
3) Bennett UVA
4) Brey ND
5) Boeheim SY
6) Pastner GT
7) Hamilton FSU
8) Buzz VT
9) Larragna MI
10) Stallings Pitt
11) Christian BC
12) Manning Wake
*Keatts/ Padgett (both doing well in first year).

DukieInBrasil
01-18-2018, 01:03 PM
Here's how I'd rate ACC coaches...Larranage is not in the upper half.

1) Coach K Duke
2) Bennett UVA
3) Brey ND
4) Boeheim SY
5) Hamilton FSU
6) Larranaga MI
7) Buzz VT
8) Pastner GT
9) Christian BC
10) Stallings Pitt
11) Manning Wake
*Keatts/ Padgett (both doing well in first year).
**Resorting to cheating disqualifies one from any best-of list, except for a list of how much cheating they did.

It does kinda depend on whether you're judging by career accomplishments, or Right Now. Mine is a mix. NCAA coaching involves a mix of recruiting the best players available, the right players for the team you want to build, practice/systems/teaching, and in-game adjustments, and finally, high quality character.
I put K at the top of that list b/c A) he has the most championships, wins and winning % of anyone on the list B) he is still at or near the peak of his coaching talent C) and he is really good at recruiting, teaching and in-game adjustments D) his character is widely praised and unimpeachable. I put Bennett at #2 despite his lack of career accomplishments relative to some others, b/c he gets the right players for his system, appears to be a great teacher, is doing a great job Right Now, and is a high quality guy. Despite his career accomplishments, i let Boeheim slip due to his apparent fade in the coaching skill area, and the tarnishing of his reputation by recent scandal. I moved Larranaga up from where Wheat had him b/c he took a Nowhereville Miami program to being at least relevant every year, and sometimes really good. I also moved Hamilton up, for many of the same reasons.

Troublemaker
01-18-2018, 01:31 PM
As for Larranaga, imo, he deserves to be in the top half because he's taken George Mason to a Final Four (beating UNC along the way, which probably burns), is a two-time ACC COY and also a national COY once.

CDu
01-18-2018, 01:43 PM
Sigh... whether trolling or not, can we please not go down the Wheat rabbit hole again?

How about that win in Miami? Pretty fun huh? Surely much more fun than bickering with Wheat about something neither of you are EVER going to agree about.

Wander
01-18-2018, 01:52 PM
How about that win in Miami? Pretty fun huh? Surely much more fun than bickering with Wheat about something neither of you are EVER going to agree about.

Have we talked about Duval's 3 point shooting yet? I've been a little bit more on the skeptical side of Duval this season, and my main reason was that I think poor shooting at any of the guard positions is a gigantic weakness. But the past few games, including Miami, he's at least been at the point where the opponents can't just blatantly leave him open. That's a huge help and I think makes our high offensive ranking more sustainable.

devil84
01-18-2018, 02:03 PM
I just deleted a lot of posts. Some tips to keep your posts from being deleted:



Remain civil.
No name calling or bashing.
Refrain from trolling.
Don't feed trolls. Report the post instead; thanks to the posters who have!
If you bring up the UNC Scandal or respond to a post that does, you have to advance the conversation.

Kedsy
01-18-2018, 02:06 PM
Have we talked about Duval's 3 point shooting yet? I've been a little bit more on the skeptical side of Duval this season, and my main reason was that I think poor shooting at any of the guard positions is a gigantic weakness. But the past few games, including Miami, he's at least been at the point where the opponents can't just blatantly leave him open. That's a huge help and I think makes our high offensive ranking more sustainable.

7 for his first 42 three-attempts and now 6 of his last 8. Small sample. Might mean he's turned a corner; might mean he simply started the season in a slump; or it might mean he's just gotten lucky his last few attempts.

Personally, I've always been in the camp that if Trevon gets a wide open catch-and-shoot opportunity, he should take it. I'm less convinced that he has suddenly become a good shooter.

kshepinthehouse
01-18-2018, 02:24 PM
Have we talked about Duval's 3 point shooting yet? I've been a little bit more on the skeptical side of Duval this season, and my main reason was that I think poor shooting at any of the guard positions is a gigantic weakness. But the past few games, including Miami, he's at least been at the point where the opponents can't just blatantly leave him open. That's a huge help and I think makes our high offensive ranking more sustainable.

Seems like his shot has gotten a little smoother and heís gone to almost a stand still jumper.

kshepinthehouse
01-18-2018, 02:33 PM
Here's how I'd rate ACC coaches...Larranage is not in the upper half.

1) Roy Williams UNC
2) Coach K Duke
3) Bennett UVA
4) Brey ND
5) Boeheim SY
6) Pastner GT
7) Hamilton FSU
8) Buzz VT
9) Larragna MI
10) Stallings Pitt
11) Christian BC
12) Manning Wake
*Keatts/ Padgett (both doing well in first year).

Please explain your decision to put Boeheim at 5th.

Olympic Fan
01-18-2018, 02:39 PM
I just deleted a lot of posts. Some tips to keep your posts from being deleted:



Remain civil.
No name calling or bashing.
Refrain from trolling.
Don't feed trolls. Report the post instead; thanks to the posters who have!
If you bring up the UNC Scandal or respond to a post that does, you have to advance the conversation.


Well, I assume this post will be deleted too.

Frankly I'm fed up by moderators protecting and celebrating a UNC troll, while deleting those who call him out.

Devil84, you delete the post by those calling out the troll, but you leave the trolling post up?

I've enjoyed my time on the boards and I hope I've contributed to the community. But that's it for me. I'm gone.

kshepinthehouse
01-18-2018, 02:42 PM
Well, I assume this post will be deleted too.

Frankly I'm fed up by moderators protecting and celebrating a UNC troll, while deleting those who call him out.

Devil84, you delete the post by those calling out the troll, but you leave the trolling post up?

I've enjoyed my time on the boards and I hope I've contributed to the community. But that's it for me. I'm gone.

My post about Roy Williams not being eligible to be in a top list of coaches should be allowed in my opinion.

stedge
01-18-2018, 03:13 PM
royís simply not eligible.

devil84
01-18-2018, 03:16 PM
Well, I assume this post will be deleted too.

Frankly I'm fed up by moderators protecting and celebrating a UNC troll, while deleting those who call him out.

Devil84, you delete the post by those calling out the troll, but you leave the trolling post up?

I've enjoyed my time on the boards and I hope I've contributed to the community. But that's it for me. I'm gone.

To be fair, I deleted those that were complained about. I did not delete those that spawned rational discussion. If I haven't deleted enough, please report those I should include.

MChambers
01-18-2018, 03:29 PM
If Larranaga is 6th in a 13 team league, how is he not in the top half?

Wander
01-18-2018, 03:32 PM
7 for his first 42 three-attempts and now 6 of his last 8. Small sample. Might mean he's turned a corner; might mean he simply started the season in a slump; or it might mean he's just gotten lucky his last few attempts.

Personally, I've always been in the camp that if Trevon gets a wide open catch-and-shoot opportunity, he should take it. I'm less convinced that he has suddenly become a good shooter.

Yeah, I agree. We need more games.

I don't really expect him to become a good shooter, I'd just like him to be good enough such that the correct decision for the defense is not to intentionally give him wide-open 3 point attempts. Maybe he's already there.

JasonEvans
01-18-2018, 03:34 PM
If Larranaga is 6th in a 13 team league, how is he not in the top half?

Wheat had him 9th. DukieinBrasil had him 6th.

This discussion of ranking ACC coaches is fully subjective and folks who get up in arms about it are being silly, IMO. There are a lot of great coaches in the ACC. You could probably take 5 or 6 of them in the middle and make a case for any order you want.

Heck, what is even the criteria here? Does recruiting matter (cause then Bennett gets rated waaay down)? Is it all about post-season success (Roy gets the nod there for what he has done lately)? Is it about player development (probably moves Brey or maybe Bennett to #1)? How much is "what have you done for me lately" and how much is career achievement (makes a huuuuge difference in where Boeheim is rated)?

-Jason "silly to fight over anything on the internet... especially sports opinions" Evans

Bob Green
01-18-2018, 03:38 PM
If Larranaga is 6th in a 13 team league, how is he not in the top half?

The ACC is a 15 team league.

rtnorthrup
01-18-2018, 03:44 PM
The ACC is a 15 team league.

You are entitled to your opinion sir. Heeheeheehee

DukieInBrasil
01-18-2018, 03:44 PM
My post about Roy Williams not being eligible to be in a top list of coaches should be allowed in my opinion.

dont worry kshep, i snuck that idea into my response :cool:

MChambers
01-18-2018, 03:51 PM
Wheat had him 9th. DukieinBrasil had him 6th.

This discussion of ranking ACC coaches is fully subjective and folks who get up in arms about it are being silly, IMO. There are a lot of great coaches in the ACC. You could probably take 5 or 6 of them in the middle and make a case for any order you want.

Heck, what is even the criteria here? Does recruiting matter (cause then Bennett gets rated waaay down)? Is it all about post-season success (Roy gets the nod there for what he has done lately)? Is it about player development (probably moves Brey or maybe Bennett to #1)? How much is "what have you done for me lately" and how much is career achievement (makes a huuuuge difference in where Boeheim is rated)?

-Jason "silly to fight over anything on the internet... especially sports opinions" Evans

Thanks for the correction! Now Iíll go back to not reading his posts.

DukieInBrasil
01-18-2018, 03:52 PM
Yeah, I agree. We need more games.

I don't really expect him to become a good shooter, I'd just like him to be good enough such that the correct decision for the defense is not to intentionally give him wide-open 3 point attempts. Maybe he's already there.

personally, i'm fine with opponents leaving him wide open for 3s, as long as he keeps knocking them down like he has lately ;)
Seriously though, the stand still shot seems to work much better for him than a jump shot 3. As long as Trevon is able to recognize what shot is available to him and shoot or drive accordingly, i'm cool with him doing either. He's gotta be really open for that stand still shot to be available, and he should take it if he can comfortably shoot it that way. However, if the defender is too close to comfortably shoot that way, he can give a pump fake, and probably have enough space to drive for a shot (where he really is quite good at finishing at the rim 1 on 1) or dish to a shooter or a big.