MBB: Duke 89, Wake Forest 71 Post-Game Thread

[JBDuke]

Put your post-game thoughts here.

[accfanfrom1970]

Alex in the first half from 3, Trent in the second half. Bagley a beast. Carter double-double. All good, would still like to see Grayson go off.

[DukeWarhead]

Sounds entitled to complain about an 18 ACC win, but that second half was painful to look at (except for GTJr.s stroke). Some to be concerned about going forward. But always much better than a loss

[dairedevil]

Always glad to get a win, especially when Coach is out sick. Good job, coach C!

[karmacoma]

Workmanlike win. Bagley was a beast as always, Alex with a nice showing, Gary hit the threes Wake was giving him, defense showing some improvement. Big test Monday night! Hope Grayson brings his jumper. His all-around floor game was superb today.

[WiJoe]

OK, students; where do we get those Marvin Bagley T-shirts?

Gotta have one! The sooner the better

[WVDUKEFAN]

I think the defense is improving as well. Still, poor decisions by Duval. Grayson - where is your 3 ball?

[duke09hms]

I think the defense is improving as well. Still, poor decisions by Duval. Grayson - where is your 3 ball?

6 assists, 1 TO ... really?

[Devilwin]

Nice win. Bagley was unreal, Carter and Trent were great, and AOC got it going as he will do. Still, some sloppiness at times, but overall a nice momentum builder as we head to Miami.

[weezie]

OK, students; where do we get those Marvin Bagley T-shirts?

Gotta have one! The sooner the better

Paging Native. He usually knows what the kids are up to.

[Bob Green]

Grayson - where is your 3 ball?

A tough shooting game for Grayson Allen but he played a solid overall game with 12 rebounds, 8 assists and 1 steal.

[pfrduke]

OK, students; where do we get those Marvin Bagley T-shirts?

Gotta have one! The sooner the better

Co sign on this one. Those were tight.

[BandAlum83]

Co sign on this one. Those were tight.

Really? I thought maybe they made them in only one size. The one they zoomed in in looked pretty loose fitting and big on that girl. Not tight, Bagley.

[DukieInBrasil]

good game, looks like the defense is actually starting to get better from game to game.
When this team is making 3s, the offense looks really good.
It looks like refs are really letting opponents hammer Bagley, and to a lesser extent Carter, when they get the ball 1 on 1.
2 guys with double doubles, Grayson with 12 rebounds, but only 2 points.
I like that our bench played pretty well. Alex lighting it up, Jack grabbing rebounds, Goldwire scoring on the break. HOwever, neither Vrank nor J-Rob looked particularly good.
Good win, glad to see Duke above .500 in the league!

[Hauerwas]

6 assists, 1 TO ... really?

Duval didn't just have one turnover, he threw three balls away on the break. Not sure how those are not turnovers on him but somehow the statistician missed that. Watch the tape.

Otherwise, he still forces the action on offense but his defense, especially at the top of the zone, really was solid today.

I loved how active the man to man was and also how balanced the defense was in the zone. After the first 8 minutes we settled down and really rotated well on defense.

Allen still can't find his shot but he had a great senior type game, managed the offense, passed well, stuffed the stat sheet in other ways.

The second half felt like the team grew up. It was a game where they could have easily let off the gas and allowed an inferior team to make a come back but Trent's 3's and Bagley just didn't allow it. Felt like a very professional, grown man kinda win even against a team with serious limitations. We should have won big and we did. That shows discipline and maturity. Two great things to see from this very young team.

[-jk]

OK, students; where do we get those Marvin Bagley T-shirts?

Gotta have one! The sooner the better

Gonna be hard to get one - can't be sanctioned...

-jk

[WiJoe]

it's a head w/hair. Don't expect them to be sanctioned. It's like the Make America Grayson Again shirt. Generally, "sanctioned" shirts are weak.

[ChrisP]

Duval didn't just have one turnover, he threw three balls away on the break. Not sure how those are not turnovers on him but somehow the statistician missed that. Watch the tape.

Otherwise, he still forces the action on offense but his defense, especially at the top of the zone, really was solid today.

I loved how active the man to man was and also how balanced the defense was in the zone. After the first 8 minutes we settled down and really rotated well on defense.

Allen still can't find his shot but he had a great senior type game, managed the offense, passed well, stuffed the stat sheet in other ways.

The second half felt like the team grew up. It was a game where they could have easily let off the gas and allowed an inferior team to make a come back but Trent's 3's and Bagley just didn't allow it. Felt like a very professional, grown man kinda win even against a team with serious limitations. We should have won big and we did. That shows discipline and maturity. Two great things to see from this very young team.

You sure you aren't confusing Duval for Grayson regarding throwing it away on the break? Allen made a few poor decisions today in would-be fast break situations.

[CDu]

Only 71 points allowed in roughly 82 possessions. Against a good Wake offense? Yeah, I will take that.

[Saratoga2]

Good to get the win and a dominant one at that. Virtually no scoring from Grayson so a lot of room for improvement there. If he is to earn a spot professionally, he will have to be a very good shooter. Something happened that is impacting his accuracy, don't know what. Bagley was great again. He is truely a super talent. Carter had a nice game and Gary Trent had his best showing to date from the 3 point line.

Two players that don't get much attention had interesting games. Jack White is a tough kid and gives a lot of effort defending and rebounding. Obviously he doesn't have the size of Vrank but in some ways his energy and speed are an improvement. Soon both DeLaurier and Bolden will be back soon and Jack will probably not see much game time but I feel comfortable with him in the game. Alex O'Connell is very energetic and has a nice shot and we saw today that he is capable of putting nice bench points. In the second half he fell back into making passes when he probably should have shot and I believe a couple of plays of that type got him back on the bench. Nevertheless, both have a lot to offer and give the team the depth that coach K seems to indicate doesn't exist on the team.

An area for improvement is avoidance of swoons at times. Last two games they seemed to have a period in the second half that they lost their impetus. Maybe being up by so much made them complacement but I do notice the tendency occurs with the starters in.

[TKG]

it's a head w/hair. Don't expect them to be sanctioned. It's like the Make America Grayson Again shirt. Generally, "sanctioned" shirts are weak.

Guarantee Nike is trying to create a sanctioned version, now.

[AtlDuke72]

I think the defense is improving as well. Still, poor decisions by Duval. Grayson - where is your 3 ball?

Ridiculous. 6 assistas. 1 turnover. What would it take for him to get your approval?????

[arnie]

Only 71 points allowed in roughly 82 possessions. Against a good Wake offense? Yeah, I will take that.

Mostly zone, correct?

[WiJoe]

Guarantee Nike is trying to create a sanctioned version, now.

Ugh.

[CDu]

Mostly zone, correct?

Quite a bit, yes.

[-jk]

Guarantee Nike is trying to create a sanctioned version, now.

As far as I know, you can't use a kid's likeness in a sanctioned shirt (or anything else). This goes way back. As I recall, there was a T in '86 that was printed with the seniors' names on the back, that went back to the printer to have an image of a basketball court overwrite their names.

-jk

[WiJoe]

I'll buy an underground shirt.

[budwom]

Best shirt I've seen in years, and made better yet by the lack of a swoosh or any other commercial muck.

[WiJoe]

Best shirt I've seen in years, and made better yet by the lack of a swoosh or any other commercial muck.

Waiting for one of the "perps" to give more info on shirt. Please don't censor DBR.

[WiJoe]

Bagley shirt might need it's own thread

[uh_no]

would still like to see Grayson go off.

he was two assists away from a double double. while scoring 2 points. let that sink in.

[pfrduke]

According to Instagram comments (so take it for what it’s worth) the t’s were given away for free by Marvin’s dad. Probably not likely any of the rest of us can get our hands on one.

[BandAlum83]

Is it just me, or did it seem the balance tilted back towards Zone for our defense. I'm sure someone will analyze the percentages of zone vs. man possessions, but the eye test seemed significantly more zone.

So was that the game plan, or a Jeff Capel in-game decision?

I am curious. It seemed our defensive efficiency was better with zone also.

So what movement in KenPom do we have post game?

[uh_no]

According to Instagram comments (so take it for what it’s worth) the t’s were given away for free by Marvin’s dad. Probably not likely any of the rest of us can get our hands on one.

i mean, you can get your hands on anything by having it printed. not even that expensive. I don't suppose that the printing companies actually do any due-diligence on whether you have the rights to the image or that Bagley would really care that much if some dukies printed up some shirts with his face on them....same as printing up a poster with his image on it, so long as nobody is making $$ off them.

[NSDukeFan]

i mean, you can get your hands on anything by having it printed. not even that expensive. I don't suppose that the printing companies actually do any due-diligence on whether you have the rights to the image or that Bagley would really care that much if some dukies printed up some shirts with his face on them...same as printing up a poster with his image on it, so long as nobody is making $$ off them.

Isn't okay if anyone makes money off as long as it's not the players? 😀

[Dr. Rosenrosen]

Couldn’t watch the game. Is there a link where I can see these cool tshirt’s?

[porkpa]

Marvin Bagley III is the best and most talented freshman to ever play for Duke and quite possibly anyone else as well. I've never seen a big man who can do so many things and do them as well. Tim Duncan comes to mind, but Marvin is far more talented. We ain't seen nothing yet.

[UrinalCake]

Zone defense was effective, although Wake also missed some open threes. Weird stat that they were 17-42 from two (40.4%) and we were 13-24 (54%). So both teams relied heavily on the three, while we also drew a lot of fouls inside. Their roster looks like a poor man’s version of ours, usually playing two bigs, thus they have trouble defending the three. Plus they don’t have Bagley, who is so good he can put up 30 without really dominating the ball.

Trent was intrrviewed after the game and said he is fighting illness as well. Gotta wonder if other members of the team are also less than 100%. Overall a really good and balanced effort, Happy to get the relatively easy win and hopefully we can get healthy as we travel to Miami on a short turn around.

[Stray Gator]

For those who seem worried about Grayson's shot, It probably merits mention that Grayson did sink two attempts from behind the arc during the game, but unfortunately both were waved off by whistles. If those two shots had not been negated by foul calls, he would have gone 2-5 from three-point range, which suggests that the concerns being expressed about his shooting touch may be unwarranted.

Likewise, for anyone who thinks that the team's second half performance is somehow concerning, it should be noted that Duke opened the second half with a 13-point lead. Then, after Wake made the first basket of the second half to cut the lead to 11 -- the closest they would get -- Duke came on strong and pushed the cushion out to 18 with 8:11 to go, then up to 24 with 6:35 to go, then up to 27 with 3:47 to go. Finally, during the last 3:04 of the game, after Carter fouled out and as the other starters were being subbed out, Wake mounted a 10-1 "comeback" to make the final margin a more respectable 18. I'm not sure what transpired during that second half that could be regarded as cause for concern, but I'd be delighted with that kind of second-half performance against an ACC opponent any time Duke takes the court.

[accfanfrom1970]

he was two assists away from a double double. while scoring 2 points. let that sink in.

As Capel mentioned Grayson had a great all around game...I would just like to see him have a shooting night like Trent did today. He will I'm sure, just rooting for him.

[WVDUKEFAN]

6 assists, 1 TO ... really?

Sometimes you have to look beyond the stat lines. The statisticians were generous to him. Don't get me wrong. I think the young man is getting better. He just tried to make spectacular plays when he should have made a basketball play.

[uh_no]

Marvin Bagley III is the best and most talented freshman to ever play for Duke and quite possibly anyone else as well. I've never seen a big man who can do so many things and do them as well. Tim Duncan comes to mind, but Marvin is far more talented. We ain't seen nothing yet.

perhaps you've heard of trae young? Bagley may not even be the most talented in his own class, let alone ever.

Bagley is spectacular, no doubt, but what young is doing is otherworldly. To put a geek-twist on it, the gap between #1 trae and #2 bagley in kenpoms POTY stat is greater than the gap between 2 and 10...by a healthy margin.

[MrPoon]

I’m not analytical enough to watch this game and tell if we are getting better or Wake had a poor game... possibly both. Maybe we are better at D w/o K! Joking. How bad was our really game shooting? Hate the early games.

First GA, his shot isn’t there, which is socking to me because he is so good. But after the MSU game, this may be my favorite game of his, assists, D, communication, and rebounding. What more do you want from a senior leader in a shooting funk?

Bagley, words are starting to run short. I listen to the Game Theory podcast and last week they debated Bagley in the NBA. Maybe worth a separate thread but it was an interesting debate. His guest had Bagley 7th in the draft (I started yelling obscenities at him by the end of the podcast) but they both had questions about his interior D. Can he bulk up enough and why, at his size, doesn’t he block more shots? The host ultimately had him 2 or 3 depending on which team is drafting and if they need a PG. Both thought Ayton had a chance of being hall of fame great and worth the risk. But Bagley was the most guaranteed, risk free all-star in this class. He gets a mid range jumper and DEAR LORD!

Duval. I still love his game and its good to see the three starting to get more reliable (low bar). You can tell the staff is looking to get him more involved because he seems to be expanding where he shoots from. I like the way his head is up and looking when the D isn’t sent. He isn’t always successful but he puts a ton of pressure on a slow to recover D by driving it into the paint. This may be controversial but I think Duval has the highest ceiling of any player on this team. He is still so raw. GA will break out of his funk, Trent is starting to find his roll, Bagley is insane and so is Carter but Duval can get soooo much better. It won’t all happen this year but if enough does, it may be the difference. (The aforementioned podcast asked if Duval, without a jump shot is an NBA player at all, but still had him around 26).

Oh and two quickies, can some of us donate a few lbs to AOC? Because with a little weight I think the kid is going to have a fun career. And yes, I’m down for one of those Bag T’s, those were awesome.

Got to break this funk against Miami!

[aimo]

Just wondering what the commentators were saying about the horrific officiating. That one guy called the foul on Carter under the basket in the first half that was clearly all ball. Then he was the same one with the "inadvertent" whistle?!? Inadvertent means he blew it accidentally. He blew the whistle on purpose, then couldn't think of what to call. THEN, they gave the ball to Wake even though Bagley was clearly holding the ball when the whistle blew. Coach K would have blown a gasket had he been there. That guy needs to find another career.

Trent was amazing with his threes, especially considering he was puking his guts out on the bench in the first half.

[construe]

...can some of us donate a few lbs to AOC? Because with a little weight I think the kid is going to have a fun career.

Probably an old chestnut, but I laughed out loud when the play-by-play called him the "Slim Reaper" after he hit a few 3s...

[MrPoon]

Probably an old chestnut, but I laughed out loud when the play-by-play called him the "Slim Reaper" after he hit a few 3s...

I too laughed out loud (an actual LOL!), my youngest even came in to ask what I was laughing at. Don’t know if that was of Mike’s making or not but that was brilliant.

[nmduke2001]

I too laughed out loud (an actual LOL!), my youngest even came in to ask what I was laughing at. Don’t know if that was of Mike’s making or not but that was brilliant.

People have been calling Kevin Durant that for some time. He does not like it.

https://www.cbssports.com/nba/news/kevin-durant-isnt-a-big-fan-of-his-new-slim-reaper-nickname/

[construe]

Yeah, I figured it was too obv to not have been used before. But since I'm not generally an NBA watcher, I hadn't heard it.

But like MrPoon, my kids also wanted to know what the heck I was laughing about. After I told them, they kept asking when the Slim Reaper was getting back in the game.

[uh_no]

He blew the whistle on purpose, then couldn't think of what to call.

I'm not sure what you're trying to prove with this statement. It was the definition of an inadvertent whistle.


Section 20. Inadvertent Whistle
Art. 1. An inadvertent whistle occurs any time an official blows the whistle by
mistake and does not have a call to make.

He made the "tipped" sign while blowing it, and realized he shouldn't have blown it at all.





THEN, they gave the ball to Wake even though Bagley was clearly holding the ball when the whistle blew.

This was absolutely the wrong call. alternating possession only applies after when no team was in clear control, which carter was.

[porkpa]

perhaps you've heard of trae young? Bagley may not even be the most talented in his own class, let alone ever.

Bagley is spectacular, no doubt, but what young is doing is otherworldly. To put a geek-twist on it, the gap between #1 trae and #2 bagley in kenpoms POTY stat is greater than the gap between 2 and 10...by a healthy margin.

You obviously missed the word "possibly"

[MartyClark]

perhaps you've heard of trae young? Bagley may not even be the most talented in his own class, let alone ever.

Bagley is spectacular, no doubt, but what young is doing is otherworldly. To put a geek-twist on it, the gap between #1 trae and #2 bagley in kenpoms POTY stat is greater than the gap between 2 and 10...by a healthy margin.

I don't follow or understand kenpoms metrics. Bagley is unbelievably good. So is Trae Young. I think any attempt to quantify or rate their greatness through stats tell part. but not all, of the story.

Go Duke. Go Marvin.

[Acymetric]

Marvin Bagley III is the best and most talented freshman to ever play for Duke and quite possibly anyone else as well. I've never seen a big man who can do so many things and do them as well. Tim Duncan comes to mind, but Marvin is far more talented. We ain't seen nothing yet.


Offensively that is probably true, but while Bagley isn't a bad defender he is no Tim Duncan.

[AtlDuke72]

O’Connell scores 13 points in 15 minutes. Not a word about him ! I am guessing that Duke playing zone keeps him in the floor longer. The kid is really good!

[AtlDuke72]

Offensively that is probably true, but while Bagley isn't a bad defender he is no Tim Duncan.

He is much better offensively than Duncan ever hoped to be.

[ncexnyc]

Offensively that is probably true, but while Bagley isn't a bad defender he is no Tim Duncan.

What are you comparing? Is it MBIII the freshman vs TD the freshman or MBIII the freshman vs TD the senior?

[Neals384]

6 assists, 1 TO ... really?


You sure you aren't confusing Duval for Grayson regarding throwing it away on the break? Allen made a few poor decisions today in would-be fast break situations.

Not trying to jump on the Duval beat-down, but he actually had three turnovers - there were two scoring errors on turnovers that should have been scored to Duval. The first one was on the Duval pass that sent Allen into the cameraman at 16:46 of the second half. That was credited to Bagley, who had nothing to do with it - he grabbed a rebound and passed to Duval, who threw it too far.


The second one was at 13:38 of the second half. Rebound by Carter, outlet to Duval, 3/4 court pass over Bagley's head into the cheap seats. That one was credited to Allen, who never touched the ball.


The only turnover assigned to Duval was on his offensive foul later in the second half.


By the way I heard the regular scorekeeper was sick and Duval's cousin filled in for him. :cool:

[CDu]

Neals is correct. Duval did throw two fast break passes out of bounds that somehow didn’t get credited to him. Still, not an awful game from him. But 6-1 assist-turnover ratio today is misleading for sure.

[kAzE]

Excellent team win here. Bagley is the best Duke freshman ever. No question about that anymore.

A couple of observations now that we've seen Jeff Capel as the substitute head coach for a few games now: Capel seems to play a deeper rotation than Coach K. It's happened every game K missed last year, and it was the case again tonight. (I'm crediting the bench's extensive minutes in the Pitt game to how bad Pitt is. This was a much more competitive opponent) Guys got off the bench early, played longer, and contributed. It was nice to see. O'Connell had the best game of the subs, but it was interesting to see J-Rob as the first guy off the bench. Still no Javin or Marques, sadly. Jack White had a couple strong rebounds against Wake's undersized front court. Looks like he put on some muscle this year, which is a good combo with his natural toughness.

Coach Capel also used much more zone than we've played since ACC games started, and it worked to hold Wake to less than a point per possession. It remains to be seen how good defensively we can be with the traditional M2M scheme, which is obviously a work in progress, but it's nice to know that we can go to the zone and play some adequate defense. If the M2M doesn't improve within the next month, there's a case to be made that we're just a better fit for zone this year.

I really haven't see enough hype about Grayson's game today. Some posts saying he played "solid," but I thought he was great. This is what you hope your star players can do if their shot isn't going down: contribute in other areas, and that is exactly what he did. He had at least 2 incredible passes this game. The lob from behind halfcourt to Bagley for the alley-oop was absurd. He put that thing in the exact right spot for Bagley to slam it down in stride. He also had a 1 handed cross court pass to Gary for a 3 that was lightning quick and on the money, right into Gary's shooting motion. He will find a way out of this shooting slump, but if he keeps playing like this, we will probably keep winning, regardless.

[lotusland]

Neals is correct. Duval did throw two fast break passes out of bounds that somehow didn’t get credited to him. Still, not an awful game from him. But 6-1 assist-turnover ratio today is misleading for sure.

Also in the second half shortly after the foul TO that was credited, Duval drove into a crowded lane out of control and got packed. Defender then caught the ball himself. So as good as another TO. It was a shaky stretch for Duval. He did hit Grayson with a Long pass that was perfectly placed for a three that rimmed out. Then he found Allen again for a three that Grayson drained but it didn’t count because Duval got called for a moving screen. Not a bad game over all but he was playing a little too out of control for a bit.

[lotusland]

As Capel mentioned Grayson had a great all around game...I would just like to see him have a shooting night like Trent did today. He will I'm sure, just rooting for him.

Trent had several wide open shots from three. Grayson has been guarded much closer on the 3 point line than Gary lately. That may change if Trent stays hot.

[porkpa]

Offensively that is probably true, but while Bagley isn't a bad defender he is no Tim Duncan.

Remember Tim Duncan played four years of college ball. Bagley is a freshman who probably still should be in high school.

[porkpa]

What are you comparing? Is it MBIII the freshman vs TD the freshman or MBIII the freshman vs TD the senior?

Either/or.

[dukelifer]

Remember Tim Duncan played four years of college ball. Bagley is a freshman who probably still should be in high school.

Duncan averaged less than 10pts per game as a Freshman. That just goes to show that all time great players actually improved a lot after their Freshman year. We have such high expectations for these young guys.

[duke74]

Duncan averaged less than 10pts per game as a Freshman. That just goes to show that all time great players actually improved a lot after their Freshman year. We have such high expectations for these young guys.

Almost as high as they have for themselves as they pass through on the way to the show (hopefully for them).

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

Duncan averaged less than 10pts per game as a Freshman. That just goes to show that all time great players actually improved a lot after their Freshman year. We have such high expectations for these young guys.

Though, to be fair, Bagley would get less shots if Giles, Tatum, Jackson, Kennard, Ingram were still on this team. Nothing happens in a vacuum.

Bagley is insane - likely a top five all-time Duke talent. But comparing stats across eras doesn't pass muster. The dynamics change so fast. What would Grant Hill have done at 18 as the number one option on a team where he was in a one year audition for the NBA? How would Bagley produce in a pre-three point era?

Just makes for good bar chatter, not helpful apples to apples comparison.

But yeah, MB3 is stupid good.

[mr shadow 008]

perhaps you've heard of trae young? Bagley may not even be the most talented in his own class, let alone ever.

Bagley is spectacular, no doubt, but what young is doing is otherworldly. To put a geek-twist on it, the gap between #1 trae and #2 bagley in kenpoms POTY stat is greater than the gap between 2 and 10...by a healthy margin.

You are obviously paying way too much attention to ESPN headlines. Take today as an example. Yes Trae Young had 43 points. He also took 27 shots with 18 of those being 3 point fgs taken to get those 43 points. He had 7 assists today but also had 9 turnovers to go along with those assists.

If you want another example look at the game against West Virginia last week. The headline you got from ESPN was oh look Trae young had 29 points and 5 assists! What ESPN didn’t show was that Trae was 8-22 from the floor and 3-12 from 3. Oh and he also had 8 turnovers to go with those 5 assists. All I’m saying is don’t trust every headline you’re reading out of ESPN.

[dukelifer]

Though, to be fair, Bagley would get less shots if Giles, Tatum, Jackson, Kennard, Ingram were still on this team. Nothing happens in a vacuum.

Bagley is insane - likely a top five all-time Duke talent. But comparing stats across eras doesn't pass muster. The dynamics change so fast. What would Grant Hill have done at 18 as the number one option on a team where he was in a one year audition for the NBA? How would Bagley produce in a pre-three point era?

Just makes for good bar chatter, not helpful apples to apples comparison.

But yeah, MB3 is stupid good.

No question that the situation matters- but as I recall Duncan was a bit raw as a Freshman - and developed over time. Hill was a huge talent as was Gene Banks. Bagley also does not have great competition at his position. But even with all that- Bags is a player. He plays with a flair that you do not see that often with bigs. AOC also plays with some flair- more so than Trent and even Duval. Looking forward to seeing him develop over the net couple of years.

[kAzE]

You are obviously paying way too much attention to ESPN headlines. Take today as an example. Yes Trae Young had 43 points. He also took 27 shots with 18 of those being 3 point fgs taken to get those 43 points. He had 7 assists today but also had 9 turnovers to go along with those assists.

If you want another example look at the game against West Virginia last week. The headline you got from ESPN was oh look Trae young had 29 points and 5 assists! What ESPN didn’t show was that Trae was 8-22 from the floor and 3-12 from 3. Oh and he also had 8 turnovers to go with those 5 assists. All I’m saying is don’t trust every headline you’re reading out of ESPN.

He's also forced to carry the huge majority of the load offensively, he's the focus of every single opposing defense, and his team is winning. You gotta respect what that kid is doing. Bagley has way more help, so he has less volume/more efficiency, but I think the 2 are pretty close. I'd put Young ahead in the POY race, but there's still a long way to go.

[uh_no]

You are obviously paying way too much attention to ESPN headlines. Take today as an example. Yes Trae Young had 43 points. He also took 27 shots with 18 of those being 3 point fgs taken to get those 43 points. He had 7 assists today but also had 9 turnovers to go along with those assists.

If you want another example look at the game against West Virginia last week. The headline you got from ESPN was oh look Trae young had 29 points and 5 assists! What ESPN didn’t show was that Trae was 8-22 from the floor and 3-12 from 3. Oh and he also had 8 turnovers to go with those 5 assists. All I’m saying is don’t trust every headline you’re reading out of ESPN.

you're cherry picking your assist numbers. his ATO is 2.25, which is a really good number considering his usage rate is #1 in the country.

you also cherry pick his shot numbers. he's a 40% 3pt shooter. If you can shoot 40 % when getting all the attention from the defense.....you know 40% is JJ's career number, right? So take JJ and then lead the country in assists as well.

oh, and he's #6 in fouls drawn per 40 minutes.

He's putting up junior stephan curry performances....as a freshman.

[Kedsy]

Only odd stat of the night to me is our relative inability to offensive rebound (only 27.3% OR%). Other than that, pretty happy allowing 0.90 ppp to the nation's #54 offense, and beating a decent team (#84 KenPom) by 18 points on a day when our 6th and 7th men were injured and a bunch of the team (plus the head coach) were sick.


would still like to see Grayson go off.

I will echo others who believe Grayson did go off, with 12 rebounds and 8 assists. He just didn't score much.


So what movement in KenPom do we have post game?

We're up to #85 in the country.


Weird stat that they were 17-42 from two (40.4%) and we were 13-24 (54%).

According to the official box (http://www.goduke.com/fls/4200/stats/2017-18/basketball-m/du0113.htm), Wake was 17 for 52 (32.7%) from two, and Duke was 13 for 34 (38.2%).

[Wander]

You are obviously paying way too much attention to ESPN headlines. Take today as an example. Yes Trae Young had 43 points. He also took 27 shots with 18 of those being 3 point fgs taken to get those 43 points. He had 7 assists today but also had 9 turnovers to go along with those assists.

If you want another example look at the game against West Virginia last week. The headline you got from ESPN was oh look Trae young had 29 points and 5 assists! What ESPN didn’t show was that Trae was 8-22 from the floor and 3-12 from 3. Oh and he also had 8 turnovers to go with those 5 assists. All I’m saying is don’t trust every headline you’re reading out of ESPN.

Dude, 43 points on 27 shots is fantastic. In fact, it is an equal number of points per shot as the top points per shot guy in the NBA. 29 points on 22 shots against a top 10 defense is also very good. You're just strengthening the case for Trae Young by listing the number of shots he's taking.

[fan345678]

Remember Tim Duncan played four years of college ball. Bagley is a freshman who probably still should be in high school.

Duncan was 17 his entire freshman season...didn't turn 21 until after his senior season.

[porkpa]

You are obviously paying way too much attention to ESPN headlines. Take today as an example. Yes Trae Young had 43 points. He also took 27 shots with 18 of those being 3 point fgs taken to get those 43 points. He had 7 assists today but also had 9 turnovers to go along with those assists.

If you want another example look at the game against West Virginia last week. The headline you got from ESPN was oh look Trae young had 29 points and 5 assists! What ESPN didn’t show was that Trae was 8-22 from the floor and 3-12 from 3. Oh and he also had 8 turnovers to go with those 5 assists. All I’m saying is don’t trust every headline you’re reading out of ESPN.

Figures don't lie, but liars often figure.

[UrinalCake]

Anybody else see the similarities between Allen’s allez-oop to Bagley for our first bucket and his oop to Giles in last year’s ACC Tournament game against the CHeats?

[BandAlum83]

Anybody else see the similarities between Allen’s allez-oop to Bagley for our first bucket and his oop to Giles in last year’s ACC Tournament game against the CHeats?

These guys often make these passes look so easy, but they aren't. On the move from just over half court? Sick.

There were at least 2 botched alley oops that make it clear how hard those passes can be.

[brlftz]

Dude, 43 points on 27 shots is fantastic. In fact, it is an equal number of points per shot as the top points per shot guy in the NBA. 29 points on 22 shots against a top 10 defense is also very good. You're just strengthening the case for Trae Young by listing the number of shots he's taking.

Yeah you beat me to it. That post is a head scratcher.

[UrinalCake]

For the visual learners:


https://youtu.be/hGPUQ2EWmuc


https://youtu.be/WgXKMh_Z_ec

[53n206]

Tre Young is a force. When he is in the game Oklahoma plays at a higher level. Yes he did make too many turnovers yesterday but he had some passes that were mishandled that would have lead to more assists. Oklahoma has another young man, a freshman forward named Manik, really good, and we will hear more from him in the future.

[kshepinthehouse]

OK, students; where do we get those Marvin Bagley T-shirts?

Gotta have one! The sooner the better

https://tinyurl.com/yata3ytl

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

https://tinyurl.com/yata3ytl

Done. You may earn your sporks now!

[Neals384]

Just want tpo add a note that these guys are tough as nails. Allen, of course, crashing into the cameraman and bouncing right up (why is he allowed a dolly under the basket? Seems dangerous), Trent draining threes after draining his bucket, and Bagley staying in the game after going down hard. I though he may have broken his nose, and started a mini prayer vigil.

[uh_no]

Just want tpo add a note that these guys are tough as nails. Allen, of course, crashing into the cameraman and bouncing right up (why is he allowed a dolly under the basket? Seems dangerous), Trent draining threes after draining his bucket, and Bagley staying in the game after going down hard. I though he may have broken his nose, and started a mini prayer vigil.

the dolly is almost always used for the baseline camera anywhere. It's a bit closer in cameron, I think, though, due to space, and there is no stantion because the baskets are suspended.

IMO the real problem is that you can get away with murder from behind on a fast break like that. it's an extremely dangerous play, and if we were looking for rule changes, somewhere in my top few would be making a foul from behind on a fast break an automatic flagrant.

[CDu]

the dolly is almost always used for the baseline camera anywhere. It's a bit closer in cameron, I think, though, due to space, and there is no stantion because the baskets are suspended.

IMO the real problem is that you can get away with murder from behind on a fast break like that. it's an extremely dangerous play, and if we were looking for rule changes, somewhere in my top few would be making a foul from behind on a fast break an automatic flagrant.

To be fair, that foul wasn't that bad. He made a play on the ball. He also got a lot of arm, and Bagley lost his balance. But if you take away that play from the defender, you are largely taking away defense at all.

When an offensive player goes at full speed at the rim, there is inherent risk. That was the risk. Fortunately, it didn't result in serious injury. But I don't think legislating out normal fouls on fast breaks is the right recourse.

[uh_no]

To be fair, that foul wasn't that bad. He made a play on the ball. He also got a lot of arm, and Bagley lost his balance. But if you take away that play from the defender, you are largely taking away defense at all.

When an offensive player goes at full speed at the rim, there is inherent risk. That was the risk. Fortunately, it didn't result in serious injury. But I don't think legislating out normal fouls on fast breaks is the right recourse.

being behind the guy with the ball is not a valid guarding position. the only two things you can do are foul or get a clean block. If you're beat, you're beat....you shouldn't get to take a swing at the other guy for free and the worst that comes of it is the guy gets two FTs, and best case you strip it.

There's a reason horse collars are a personal foul and tackles from behind in soccer on an "obvious goal scoring opportunity" is an automatic red. when you're beat, you're beat. you shouldn't be able to gain an advantage by escalating as you say, a dangerous situation, by fouling.

[CDu]

being behind the guy with the ball is not a valid guarding position. the only two things you can do are foul or get a clean block. If you're beat, you're beat...you shouldn't get to take a swing at the other guy for free and the worst that comes of it is the guy gets two FTs, and best case you strip it.

There's a reason horse collars are a personal foul and tackles from behind in soccer on an "obvious goal scoring opportunity" is an automatic red. when you're beat, you're beat. you shouldn't be able to gain an advantage by escalating as you say, a dangerous situation, by fouling.

Disagree. You should be allowed to play defense in any circumstance. Yes, there is a risk of committing a foul. There is a risk of committing a foul if you are in position too. And when a player is running full-speed with the ball and is focusing on the rim, any foul/contact or even a clean block has the potential to end up with exactly what happened.

If there is a possibility of making a clean play on the ball defensively, it should be allowed. You've acknowledged that it is possible to make a clean play on the ball, even from behind. So why shouldn't the player be allowed to make such a play? And why should a common foul in such a situation be escalated to a flagrant?

Also, your examples from the NFL and soccer don't apply here. In the NFL, you can still make a tackle from behind without it being a penalty. You just can't commit one specific kind of tackle. There are still plenty of ways to make a legal tackle from behind. In soccer, it is basically physically impossible to make a clean play on the ball from behind.

Also, the guy who fouled Bagley wasn't behind him in this play. He was more alongside Bagley than behind him. At what point - in your hypothetical case - is it too far "beaten" to try to make a play?

I think the rules as they are are correct. Excessive contact can be called flagrant. Making no attempt to make a play on the ball can be called flagrant. But common fouls that result in risky outcomes simply because the offensive player is on the verge of being out of control? No. I mean, if the player makes a clean block there, Bagley STILL goes head-first into the crowd dangerously. Do we call the defender for a flagrant there?

[uh_no]

Yes, there is a risk of committing a foul. Not just a risk, but an intent, or perhaps, a lack of care whether one is committed in an already dangerous situation.


If there is a possibility of making a clean play on the ball defensively, it should be allowed. You've acknowledged that it is possible to make a clean play on the ball, even from behind. So why shouldn't the player be allowed to make such a play? And why should a common foul in such a situation be escalated to a flagrant? So why do we have a charge circle? It's to prevent a dangerous play in a situation where otherwise, it would be completely legal defense. Why should a charge in one area of the court be changed to a block in another?


Excessive contact can be called flagrant. Making no attempt to make a play on the ball can be called flagrant. Yes, but it's rarely called...even on egregious situations on fast break fouls today.


I mean, if the player makes a clean block there, Bagley STILL goes head-first into the crowd dangerously. Do we call the defender for a flagrant there? The defensive player executed. no foul. That's the risk you take playing tough defense at all. The harder you play, the more likely you'll get called for the foul. Clearly it is not enough to deter fast-break fouls, and if you want to lessen the likelihood, increase the consequences.

We have rules against stuff like this. the charge circle. yes, you limit what the defense can do in certian situations, but you make what would otherwise be dangerous for both the offense and defense far less so. There is no reason why we couldn't do it here. The NBA has already realized this, which is why they have the "breakaway foul" rule. fouling from behind when the offense has a clear path to the basket is 2 shots and the ball. I see no reason why the college game could not adopt the same rule (whether the bagley foul would count still debatable)

[CDu]

We have rules against stuff like this. the charge circle. yes, you limit what the defense can do in certian situations, but you make what would otherwise be dangerous for both the offense and defense far less so. There is no reason why we couldn't do it here. The NBA has already realized this, which is why they have the "breakaway foul" rule. fouling from behind when the offense has a clear path to the basket is 2 shots and the ball. I see no reason why the college game could not adopt the same rule (whether the bagley foul would count still debatable)

The charge circle is there because standing still under the basket isn't actually playing defense. If the player can score before making contact, they shouldn't be penalized because someone stood still in a position that wasn't able to defend anyway.

Also, the "breakaway" foul rule wouldn't have applied here either. That only applies if - once over half court - you foul from behind AND there is no other defender at least even with the ball. In this case, there was a defender back AND a defender alongside Bagley. It does not apply to a guy who fouls a shooter in the act of shooting from behind. For example, if LeBron had a crackdown play but fouled the shooter from behind instead of a clean block, that would not be called a breakaway foul. It would be a common, two-shot foul.

I'd have no problem with the "breakaway" rule being implemented. It is designed to stop INTENTIONAL fouls from behind. That would absolutely not have come into play on the Bagley example. It would be a common shooting foul.

[uh_no]

The charge circle is there because standing still under the basket isn't actually playing defense. Actually, by the rules, it is literally a legal guarding position:



Art. 4. To establish an initial legal guarding position on the player with the ball:
a. The guard shall have both feet touching the playing court. When the
guard jumps into position initially, both feet must return to the playing
court after the jump, for the guard to establish a legal guarding position.
b. The guard’s torso shall face the opponent.
c. No time and distance shall be required.
d. When the opponent with the ball is airborne, the guard shall have
established legal guarding positi


It is so much so a legal guarding position that the rulebook literally has to say "yeah it's legal, everywhere except in the circle:



Art. 7. A secondary defender cannot establish initial legal guarding position
in the restricted area for the purposes of drawing an offensive foul

standing anywhere on the court is considered defense by rule, except in the circle. Note it doesn't say "isn't actually playing defense." I can stand outside the circle and by your definition "not play defense" just as easily as I can in it...but the only reason it's illegal is because of the circle, and the reason for the circle is to deter the defense from playing in such a way that is dangerous for both players.

[heartofgold]

Stepping back, I think this game is a dangerous one to look at by simply the margin of victory. Yes we were in control the entire game, but Wake was missing 2 point shots that most ACC teams will make. We were not forcing them into bad shots. They just didn't make them. We had more turnovers than they did. We allowed 23 three point attempts versus 15 against NC State. It didn't burn us fortunately because on the other side, we were red hot from 3, making 52%. If we had a normal (for us) 3 point shooting game and Wake makes a few more of its easy 2's, we suddenly have a very close game. This takeaway I think reflects the relatively long stretches where the defense looked awfully similar to the poor outings of past games.

Taking away too much from any single game is dangerous as so much usually boils down to 3 point performance. 2 to 3 three pointers either way is easily the margin of victory for most games.

Miami will be the true test and I'm confident our guys will be up for it. Go Duke!

[CDu]

Actually, by the rules, it is literally a legal guarding position:



It is so much so a legal guarding position that the rulebook literally has to say "yeah it's legal, everywhere except in the circle:



standing anywhere on the court is considered defense by rule, except in the circle. Note it doesn't say "isn't actually playing defense." I can stand outside the circle and by your definition "not play defense" just as easily as I can in it...but the only reason it's illegal is because of the circle, and the reason for the circle is to deter the defense from playing in such a way that is dangerous for both players.

Disagree. They aren’t trying to deter players from taking charges. There are trying to eliminate the reward for taking charges in spots where standing still isn’t guarding anything.

Your argument makes no sense. Why is taking a charge three feet further from the rim any less dangerous than taking one under the rim?

Furthermore, I see you have picked a nit here rather than acknowledge that your proposed change wouldn’t have applied to Bagley’s case.

[MChambers]

being behind the guy with the ball is not a valid guarding position. the only two things you can do are foul or get a clean block. If you're beat, you're beat...you shouldn't get to take a swing at the other guy for free and the worst that comes of it is the guy gets two FTs, and best case you strip it.

There's a reason horse collars are a personal foul and tackles from behind in soccer on an "obvious goal scoring opportunity" is an automatic red. when you're beat, you're beat. you shouldn't be able to gain an advantage by escalating as you say, a dangerous situation, by fouling.

I completely agree. Very dangerous play.

[kmspeaks]

Stepping back, I think this game is a dangerous one to look at by simply the margin of victory. Yes we were in control the entire game, but Wake was missing 2 point shots that most ACC teams will make. We were not forcing them into bad shots. They just didn't make them. We had more turnovers than they did. We allowed 23 three point attempts versus 15 against NC State. It didn't burn us fortunately because on the other side, we were red hot from 3, making 52%. If we had a normal (for us) 3 point shooting game and Wake makes a few more of its easy 2's, we suddenly have a very close game. This takeaway I think reflects the relatively long stretches where the defense looked awfully similar to the poor outings of past games.

Taking away too much from any single game is dangerous as so much usually boils down to 3 point performance. 2 to 3 three pointers either way is easily the margin of victory for most games.

Miami will be the true test and I'm confident our guys will be up for it. Go Duke!

If Wake wanted us to have a normal 3 point shooting game then maybe they should have tried actually guarding 3 point shooters. We got a ton of uncontested, catch and shoot 3's. Those tend to go in at a higher percentage.

[DukieInBrasil]

I completely agree. Very dangerous play.

Completely disagree. I side with CDu on this one, particularly on the play in question. Had the defender simply grabbed or pushed Bagley in the back, then yes, that should be an intentional foul. In this case, there was a second defender right there, as CDu pointed out, and the other defender made a play on the ball. In nearly all cases if the defender makes contact withe shooter's arm, no matter how far away from the ball, that will be a normal foul b.c the contact prevents the shooter's movement to make a shot. That by definition is a basketball play.

[DukieInBrasil]

If Wake wanted us to have a normal 3 point shooting game then maybe they should have tried actually guarding 3 point shooters. We got a ton of uncontested, catch and shoot 3's. Those tend to go in at a higher percentage.

Totally true, however, we've had several games with no shortage of wide-open 3s that just didn't drop. The fact that wide-open 3s go in vs one team but not another indicates that the defense wasn't the issue. Don't get me wrong, i hope we hit 50% of our 3s in every game the rest of the season.
I don't think the whatifism of the other comment is particularly useful, particularly when complaining about openness or not of 3s. For example, BC took several of pretty well defended shots that went in (in addition to wide-open 3s). If we play the whatifism in reverse, Duke would have won vs BC and NCSU. Coulda, shoulda, woulda...3 guys who never finish the race (or win the game, in this case).

[plimnko]

can anyone explain carter's 4th foul? looked to me that carter was under the backboard....almost on the baseline. the wfu player #13(can't recall his name) missed the dunk because the ball stuck on the front on the rim and carter didn't touch him. shouldn't that foul have been called on the rim?? lol

[uh_no]

can anyone explain carter's 4th foul? looked to me that carter was under the backboard...almost on the baseline. the wfu player #13(can't recall his name) missed the dunk because the ball stuck on the front on the rim and carter didn't touch him. shouldn't that foul have been called on the rim?? lol

Jeff Capel is still wondering....and looking around for a ref to complain to.

don't know if they showed it on the coverage, but none of the refs would talk to him, so he was somewhere around mid court looking for any ref with whom to plead his case.

[CDu]

can anyone explain carter's 4th foul? looked to me that carter was under the backboard...almost on the baseline. the wfu player #13(can't recall his name) missed the dunk because the ball stuck on the front on the rim and carter didn't touch him. shouldn't that foul have been called on the rim?? lol

That call was awful. Just awful.

[UrinalCake]

https://tinyurl.com/yata3ytl

I hate to be a wet blanket, but do we need to be worried about a potential NCAA violation? I don’t believe a player can use his likeness to make money. And if it’s somebody else not related to Bagley making these shirts, how is that okay?

[CDu]

I hate to be a wet blanket, but do we need to be worried about a potential NCAA violation? I don’t believe a player can use his likeness to make money. And if it’s somebody else not related to Bagley making these shirts, how is that okay?

If the shirts are only given away for free, it is not a violation. If they are sold, not so good. The “profit” part is the no-no.

[plimnko]

Jeff Capel is still wondering...and looking around for a ref to complain to.

don't know if they showed it on the coverage, but none of the refs would talk to him, so he was somewhere around mid court looking for any ref with whom to plead his case.

when i got home, i scrolled through the replay on the espn app. the bogus call occurred around the 8 minute media timeout. no mention was made on the broadcast either.....before or after the timeout. i watched it several times. i know i might be just a little bias, but that was bs.

[DukieInBrasil]

Jeff Capel is still wondering...and looking around for a ref to complain to.

don't know if they showed it on the coverage, but none of the refs would talk to him, so he was somewhere around mid court looking for any ref with whom to plead his case.

as mentioned elsewhere on DBR, and noticed by any fan of Duke, that when a questionable call goes against Duke there is no effort given to put up a replay but when even the most uncontroversial call that favors Duke generates multiple replays from many angles.
There was no replay of that foul.

[hibby91]

Completely disagree. I side with CDu on this one, particularly on the play in question. Had the defender simply grabbed or pushed Bagley in the back, then yes, that should be an intentional foul. In this case, there was a second defender right there, as CDu pointed out, and the other defender made a play on the ball. In nearly all cases if the defender makes contact withe shooter's arm, no matter how far away from the ball, that will be a normal foul b.c the contact prevents the shooter's movement to make a shot. That by definition is a basketball play.

I'm fairly certain that the second defender actually caught Bagley across the bridge of the nose. I would think that contact above the shoulders could/should have warranted a flagrant call. I've seen flagrant 1s called before for accidental contact. This was accidental, but was made while intentionally making a swipe at the ball. Much more egregious than clearing out after a rebound.

[hibby91]

If the shirts are only given away for free, it is not a violation. If they are sold, not so good. The “profit” part is the no-no.

A simple google search for Bagley T-shirts will get many hits with many vendors, including Amazon and Ebay. Same is true for Trae Young. I was surprised by this, but I can only assume that this is not an unanticipated phenomenon for the Duke compliance staff.

[WiJoe]

https://tinyurl.com/yata3ytl

not the same shirt.

[DukieInBrasil]

I'm fairly certain that the second defender actually caught Bagley across the bridge of the nose. I would think that contact above the shoulders could/should have warranted a flagrant call. I've seen flagrant 1s called before for accidental contact. This was accidental, but was made while intentionally making a swipe at the ball. Much more egregious than clearing out after a rebound.

I agree, but that was the player from the side, not from the back. In fact, both of them got him on the head, which warranted a look. But simply fouling somebody from behind shouldn't be an intentional foul.