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JBDuke
01-06-2018, 10:20 PM
Put your post-game thoughts here. No venting or bashing of our players and coaches.

thedukelamere
01-06-2018, 10:21 PM
Congrats PackMan. That’s the only positive thing I can think of at this point of the night.

dahntaysdawg
01-06-2018, 10:21 PM
Ummmm....ok?

Dr. Rosenrosen
01-06-2018, 10:24 PM
Did the entire team have the flu? I can’t figure that one out. Curious to hear coach’s comments on this one. We looked tired as hell, which will happen when your bench provides no support. I sure hope we figure out how to play some D. Feels like we’re going backwards in that department.

Fish80
01-06-2018, 10:24 PM
It’s over.

SCMatt33
01-06-2018, 10:24 PM
As bad as the players looked at times, the coaches deserve just as much criticism. No team that I know of has ever won a title only giving 6 guys serious minutes, and you have capable players on the bench. They might not be at the level of the starters, but you need to give them a chance if for no other reason than they need experience for when it really matters. Unless you come out and tell me O'Connell and Goldwire were hurt, there's no good reason they should have barely played and not played respectively. Duval was slopply and out of control for much of the night. If you count his terrible threes which might as well have been turnovers, he was double digit turnovers. Get him out for a minute to show that it's not acceptable. When you tell an 18/19 year old kid he mad a poor decision, it doesn't often get through when you send him right back out to do it again and again. The defense is bad, but you can't compound that by giving up offensive possessions and transition opportunities. It's ok to make these mistakes and have bad nights, but you get nothing out of it for the long run if you don't take advantage of the teaching moments and get the guys on the bench valuable experience.

You might say "well they've always played a short bench". But it's never been this bad, unless they physically didn't have enough healthy scholarship players to play much more like late 2016. That's not at all the case and the coaches are doing this team a terrible disservice in the long run by not even giving the bench an opportunity in a game like this.

PS: I had this pre-typed this and now see the venting/bashing thing. I consider this to be a legit constructive criticism and not bashing as there's a purpose and path for improvement included, but if the mods disagree, I apologize.

TKG
01-06-2018, 10:24 PM
How bad is our D.? State scored 62 in their 16 point loss to Clemson. The Wolfpack scored 58 in their 30 point loss to Notre Dame. Tonight they put up 96 against us.

dyedwab
01-06-2018, 10:24 PM
Is it possible for all this talent to play some effing defense????

Defense wasn't the only problem tonight. Our decision-making on both ends of the floor was terrible, and they consistently beat us to 50/50 balls all night.

Kjeffrey
01-06-2018, 10:24 PM
Congrats PackMan. That’s the only positive thing I can think of at this point of the night.

Great win for the Pack. Can we hope they do the same thing to the Heels? 🙄

jipops
01-06-2018, 10:25 PM
Goodbye #1 seed. Goodbye regular season acc title.

Next play.

moonpie23
01-06-2018, 10:25 PM
7962


"bad losses"



well....we did...

PackMan97
01-06-2018, 10:26 PM
Put your post-game thoughts here. No venting or bashing of our players and coaches.

My apologies to everyone that tried to warn me that this might happen, I didn't take them seriously enough to watch the second half. /sobs

Fish80
01-06-2018, 10:26 PM
What is wrong with Grayson?

CameronCrazy'11
01-06-2018, 10:26 PM
Defense wasn't the only problem tonight. Our decision-making on both ends of the floor was terrible, and they consistently beat us to 50/50 balls all night.

When you score 85 and still lose by 11, defense is the problem.

proelitedota
01-06-2018, 10:26 PM
I see we're following 2015's script to a TI'm a real wanker for saying this.:rolleyes:

uh_no
01-06-2018, 10:26 PM
Great win for the Pack. Can we hope they do the same thing to the Heels? 🙄

i think we have bigger things to worry about right now than whether the heels will continue to lose

Ultrarunner
01-06-2018, 10:27 PM
Congrats PackMan. That’s the only positive thing I can think of at this point of the night.

I'll second the motion. Congrats, Packman.

Devilwin
01-06-2018, 10:27 PM
Hey! We won the Quicklane Bowl!! Be happy!

dukelifer
01-06-2018, 10:27 PM
Put your post-game thoughts here. No venting or bashing of our players and coaches.

Allen has to play like a senior when you have a team full of Freshman. Not sure what happened tonight- maybe hurt- maybe sick- maybe an off night. This is a team of Freshman who one day may be consistent players- but right now they do not play well together. The D is exceptionally bad right now and if it does not get better in a hurry- the team will struggle to win in this league. Maybe playing more games a week will help- we shall see. Right now- Duke is not a very good team. But no question that Bagley is one incredible talent. Other than that- the team is playing a lot like you might expect Freshman to play in January. Again Allen needs to take over and tonight he was absent and hence the loss.

ipatent
01-06-2018, 10:27 PM
What is wrong with Grayson?

He was well guarded.

Kjeffrey
01-06-2018, 10:28 PM
As bad as the players looked at times, the coaches deserve just as much criticism. No team that I know of has ever won a title only giving 6 guys serious minutes, and you have capable players on the bench. They might not be at the level of the starters, but you need to give them a chance if for no other reason than they need experience for when it really matters. Unless you come out and tell me O'Connell and Goldwire were hurt, there's no good reason they should have barely played and not played respectively. Duval was slopply and out of control for much of the night. If you count his terrible threes which might as well have been turnovers, he was double digit turnovers. Get him out for a minute to show that it's not acceptable. When you tell an 18/19 year old kid he mad a poor decision, it doesn't often get through when you send him right back out to do it again and again. The defense is bad, but you can't compound that by giving up offensive possessions and transition opportunities. It's ok to make these mistakes and have bad nights, but you get nothing out of it for the long run if you don't take advantage of the teaching moments and get the guys on the bench valuable experience.

You might say "well they've always played a short bench". But it's never been this bad, unless they physically didn't have enough healthy scholarship players to play much more like late 2016. That's not at all the case and the coaches are doing this team a terrible disservice in the long run by not even giving the bench an opportunity in a game like this.

PS: I had this pre-typed this and now see the venting/bashing thing. I consider this to be a legit constructive criticism and not bashing as there's a purpose and path for improvement included, but if the mods disagree, I apologize.

All players have bad nights but without other options on those nights it's hard to win games. If the bench players can't get in a game like this (with some very poor play by the starters) then it seems like the coaching staff has no confidence in them. I can only imagine how frustrating it is for those bench players.

devilsince1977
01-06-2018, 10:28 PM
10 assists, 17 turnovers.

devildeac
01-06-2018, 10:31 PM
How bad is our D.? State scored 62 in their 16 point loss to Clemson. The Wolfpack scored 58 in their 30 point loss to Notre Dame. Tonight they put up 96 against us.

They scored 51 in the second half tonight! :eek::eek:

dukelifer
01-06-2018, 10:31 PM
Goodbye #1 seed. Goodbye regular season acc title.

Next play.

Not sure it is that bad but Duke is teetering. If they give up 80+ to Pitt we know it is not happening.

CDu
01-06-2018, 10:32 PM
Remember when folks were talking about maybe going 9-10 deep this year? Yeeeeeeah...

Great performance on offense by Bagley. He got 31 and 10. Unfortunately, he didn’t get much help.

Carter and DeLaurier were both really bad defensively tonight. Both were regularly out of position. It looked like we were committed to denying ball screens, but Carter was frequently lost. There was a play in which Duval was overplaying the right of Beverly, expecting baseline help. But no help was there. It just doesn’t seem like guys have any off-ball awareness.

On another position, DeLaurier checked in, and he ran to Allen’s spot atop th 2-3 zone. That left the far corner wide open, and State exploited it.

We are just a really, really bad defensive team right now, and don’t seem to be on the same page at all.

But what was as disheartening as the defense was how lost we looked on offense. State is actually a worse defensive team than us, yet they took us out of our game.

This team still has the talent to make a run at a title. But there is a lot of growth necessary between now and March.

devildeac
01-06-2018, 10:32 PM
Great win for the Pack. Can we hope they do the same thing to the Heels? 🙄

In chat I proposed that they'd lose to the cheats by 20 in Raleigh. We'll see...

Kjeffrey
01-06-2018, 10:32 PM
i think we have bigger things to worry about right now than whether the heels will continue to lose

I will always hope for a Carolina loss and would love to see the Pack get that monkey off their back. But yes we have lots of other things to worry about such as the upcoming Miami game.

84Duke
01-06-2018, 10:34 PM
A lot of unforced turnovers. A lot of 50/50 balls going to the team that wanted the ball more. Grayson looked short on his shot all night. Possible he was sick (it is that time of year).

Our young guys have to learn how badly the other team wants it when they play Duke - and match the intensity.

wavedukefan70s
01-06-2018, 10:34 PM
High hopes very frustrated.very tough game to watch.

devildeac
01-06-2018, 10:35 PM
10 assists, 17 turnovers.

NCSU: 17 A, 10 TO.

Boards: NCSU 32, Duke 30.

CDu
01-06-2018, 10:35 PM
When you score 85 and still lose by 11, defense is the problem.

Both were problems. Defense was awful tonight. So was our offense, especially when you consider how bad defensively State is.

Kjeffrey
01-06-2018, 10:36 PM
Not sure it is that bad but Duke is teetering. If they give up 80+ to Pitt we know it is not happening.

Or UVA! They're not exactly an offensive juggernaut.

TNTDevil
01-06-2018, 10:36 PM
Duke played poorly. No doubt.

State won't play that well again. But tonight, they wanted it and went out and took it. Tip o' the cap to them.

Four freshman in ACC games is always a liability. Regardless of talent.

Saratoga2
01-06-2018, 10:37 PM
Well, that was hard to watch as we have so much talent on the floor but haven't yet learned enough defense to be force tough shots. It was a road game and it is largely a freshman team, but the defensive screen and roll defense was not good. We also had a lot of turnovers tonight, quite a few of which were unforced. No reason to believe we can expect a rapid improvement in our defense so we better hope the offense and rebounding will hold up. I haven't checked the numbers for tonight but I believe we were about even on rebounds. We also fouled and bailed out NCState when they were down on their shot clock. DeLaurier has guilty of that on several occasions. He plays so hard that he sometimes is out of control.

The offense tonight centered on Bagley and he delivered as much as we can expect from him. Neither Grayson or Gary have shot well from outside and Grayson's whole offensive game was largely missing. I don't know if the defense on him was that good or he just is off his game but we do need more from him. Also O'Connell looked lost when he came in the first half so we got nothing from him on offense.

Time for the team to take stock and try to learn from this defeat and the other poor defensive showings. Onward and hopefully upward from here.

Ian
01-06-2018, 10:37 PM
Duke played poorly. No doubt.

State won't play that well again. But tonight, they wanted it and went out and took it. Tip o' the cap to them.

Four freshman in ACC games is always a liability. Regardless of talent.

So maybe we should consider a team building strategy that doesn't involve having so many Freshmen in the lineup every year.

jipops
01-06-2018, 10:37 PM
Grayson, the senior, was a complete non factor tonight. This is just as concerning as the defense.

richardjackson199
01-06-2018, 10:37 PM
We should fire our defensive coordinator
:(

DRC
01-06-2018, 10:38 PM
I can only refer to Duke's 'defense' as large-holed, lazy Swiss cheese. If this team had the relentless defense of WV or VA, we'd be championship bound. First in offense and 74th in defense doesn't win many championships. And what a shame with such individually talented players.

ipatent
01-06-2018, 10:39 PM
NC State can play when they're focused, they seem to play up or down to the level of competition. Give them credit for hitting shots down the stretch as it was starting to get interesting. We're a little banged up right now with Bolden out, Delaurier's hamstring and whatever was going on with Duval's ankle.

Giving up 90 points in three straight ACC games is cause to worry, no way to ignore that. Let's hope they gradually learn to play better defense.

The pendulum this year seems to be swinging away from the OAD strategy, but we have three months for that to change.

UNC is 1-2 in league play as well. Nothing easy on the road in the ACC.

Ian
01-06-2018, 10:39 PM
I can only refer to Duke's 'defense' as large-holed, lazy Swiss cheese. If this team had the relentless defense of WV or VA, we'd be championship bound. First in offense and 74th in defense doesn't win many championships. And what a shame with such individually talented players.

We're now out of the top 100 in defense.

weezie
01-06-2018, 10:40 PM
So what do we have here..two centers, two guards and what else?

Did we set a single screen tonight? I mean just one? Lob it in and hope for the foul.

fuse
01-06-2018, 10:42 PM
Struggling to remind myself of the axiom of losing one game for every freshman you start. Two down, two to go.

So much potential.
Fingers crossed we see this team figure it out and realize that potential.

accfanfrom1970
01-06-2018, 10:42 PM
I don't understand after a week of practice how they can come out and look so lost on D. Then go into the half, presumably to make adjustments, then come out and play even worse. 53 in the 2nd half?

kshepinthehouse
01-06-2018, 10:43 PM
Grayson just doesn’t look like the same athlete as he did during his freshman season, sophomore season, or the beginning of this season. His shot is also off and I can’t hekp but wonder if he is banged up. He can barely get around his defender 1 on 1 anymore. He used to eat played alive 1 on 1. Go back to the Michigan Sate game. Where is that Grayson? I have to believe he isn’t 100%

Kjeffrey
01-06-2018, 10:43 PM
So what do we have here..two centers, two guards and what else?

Did we set a single screen tonight? I mean just one? Lob it in and hope for the foul.

Amd I heard Tucker transferred because Duke had too many wing players. What?

JD for Three!
01-06-2018, 10:43 PM
Lots of props to State. Their team played really well. I feel like the teams played a nice game from the standpoint of neither team woofing, yapping or grabbing their junk! So rare to see a game where their is no conflict.

I think the refs should be ashamed of all of their no-calls in the paint. I think they called Yurtseven at a rate of about 1 foul per five committed.

That aside, the Devils need to have a reality check.


MBIII is the man over and over again.
Wendell - kind of meh tonight. I think he needs to learn to play angry
Trevon- For those who have been bashing Him this year I would say he continues to man up every game. He’s not a big scorer, but no one is more fearless going to the rim. Every game
GTrentJr seems to be on an every other game pace. Did he score other than free throws? One of our most mysterious weapons at this point.
Grayson must have been ill or something tonight. We will never know, but he was off for a reason. He just doesn’t play that way.
Bench- blah again. I don’t have any answer here. It seems like Javin sometimes comes in over-energized. He could slow down a hair and do more.
AOC - I think should have had more floor time tonight. A couple of threes from him could have changed the whole game..

I still love these guys. So much skill and such good kids. It’s their raw youth. They look a lot like 2015. They will lose some dumb games early on and just get tougher and meaner until they are ready to explode.

Again, props to State. We have to get used to everyone’s best shot!

HDB
01-06-2018, 10:45 PM
I think people holding out hope that this team’s defense will have a 2015 like epiphany are fooling themselves. The 2015 team had Winslow, Amile, and Matt Jones — all HIGH quality defenders. This team has nobody that plays D at that level.

lotusland
01-06-2018, 10:45 PM
Poor D, poor shooting (3-15 from deep), 16 TOs and out rebounded.

Duke79UNLV77
01-06-2018, 10:47 PM
Do they still make players like Brickey, Billy King, T Hill, and Davis, who don’t come in (and may not leave) with elite offensive talent, but first earn playing time through great defense? When was the last time we really had a guy like that and played him serious minutes? I was hoping maybe Javin, but he a very bad night tonight.

Should we go packline defense? Something needs to change on that end. Really, with our length and athleticism, we should be able to be a good defensive team.

subzero02
01-06-2018, 10:47 PM
Grayson just doesn’t look like the same athlete as he did during his freshman season, sophomore season, or the beginning of this season. His shot is also off and I can’t hekp but wonder if he is banged up. He can barely get around his defender 1 on 1 anymore. He used to eat played alive 1 on 1. Go back to the Michigan Sate game. Where is that Grayson? I have to believe he isn’t 100%

I think that this is beyond obvious... he's not showing his elite athleticism; he is almost plodding on the perimeter. I hope he can get healthy again.

ncexnyc
01-06-2018, 10:48 PM
MBIII had another great game and I'll leave it at that.

tteettimes
01-06-2018, 10:48 PM
I am a Blue Devil thru and thru....but I am afraid we will see more of results like tonight
We will hear “ Over-rated” more than ever.....I really want to be wrong.....but what do I see
Hope......hope that coaching and whatever will make us better
But.....tonight ???

Kjeffrey
01-06-2018, 10:48 PM
Do they still make players like Brickey, Billy King, T Hill, and Davis, who don’t come in (and may not leave) with elite offensive talent, but first earn playing time through great defense? When was the last time we really had a guy like that and played him serious minutes? I was hoping maybe Javin, but he a very bad night tonight.

Should we go packline defense? Something needs to change on that end. Really, with our length and athleticism, we should be able to be a good defensive team.

Matt Jones?

dyedwab
01-06-2018, 10:49 PM
I get that our defense is terrible. Our defense is unlikely to anywhere close to good this year. Given that, our offense needs to perform at its highest levels - and it wasn't. A lot of unforced errors - not just TOs, but bad shots - against a bad defense. And it made us play at a slower pace than we needed to.

And we need to figure out what to do to make our defense adequate.

I don't know what that is right now, but if we continue to play like we have, we will waste an historic season by Marvin Bagley.

CameronDuke
01-06-2018, 10:49 PM
Basketball is weird. This team has some big wins (vs Florida, vs Michigan State, at Indiana, vs FSU) but man do we have head scratching losses. BC and NCSU are decent but I don't think they're NCAA Tournament teams. Maybe I'm wrong. This defense is funny to watch at times. Surrendering 90+ ppg in the conference. Woof. Oh well. Coach K has time to figure it out. Go Duke.

weezie
01-06-2018, 10:49 PM
...I hope he can get healthy again.

He must not have asked for any screens for Christmas.

Devildog
01-06-2018, 10:49 PM
The lack of defense has much to do with poor rotations. I think it would be a mistake to assume that doesn't improve by March. The turnovers and missed rebounds will make for some harsh times in the film room but are an easier and quicker fix.

ChillinDuke
01-06-2018, 10:49 PM
A lot of things were bad in this game. A lot. And I agree with SCMatt that coaching was one of them. The lack of bench time was hard to understand. No one outside of Bagley was playing particularly well.

K is incredible, but even he will tell you he's not perfect. And his coaching job in this game (and perhaps this week although we have little insight into that) was not up to snuff.

- Chillin

Ian
01-06-2018, 10:50 PM
Do they still make players like Brickey, Billy King, T Hill, and Davis, who don’t come in (and may not leave) with elite offensive talent, but first earn playing time through great defense? When was the last time we really had a guy like that and played him serious minutes? I was hoping maybe Javin, but he a very bad night tonight.

Should we go packline defense? Something needs to change on that end. Really, with our length and athleticism, we should be able to be a good defensive team.

They do, Duke doesn't recruit them any more though. Why recruit Billy King when you can have Mark Macon?

lotusland
01-06-2018, 10:51 PM
I think people holding out hope that this team’s defense will have a 2015 like epiphany are fooling themselves. The 2015 team had Winslow, Amile, and Matt Jones — all HIGH quality defenders. This team has nobody that plays D at that level.

More zone would have helped tonight instead of getting killed on P&Rs all night but, ultimately, they’re going to have to play better M2M and defend the pick and roll to be special. 1-2 in Conference play and 0-2 away from Cameron. A lot of work ahead for the Devils.

ipatent
01-06-2018, 10:52 PM
Basketball is weird. This team has some big wins (vs Florida, vs Michigan State, at Indiana, vs FSU) but man do we have head scratching losses. BC and NCSU are decent but I don't think they're NCAA Tournament teams. Maybe I'm wrong. This defense is funny to watch at times. Surrendering 90+ ppg in the conference. Woof. Oh well. Coach K has time to figure it out. Go Duke.

The league teams have us scouted better, and they hit tough shots in all three games so far.

kshepinthehouse
01-06-2018, 10:54 PM
The lack of defense has much to do with poor rotations. I think it would be a mistake to assume that doesn't improve by March. The turnovers and missed rebounds will make for some harsh times in the film room but are an easier and quicker fix.

I agree. I don’t think it’s a lack of effort as much as a lack of awareness. We are missing a help defender that can erase some of those defensive mistakes as well. Bagley doesn’t seem to have the length to be a great shot blocker and Carter seems a step behind and not able to be that help defender either.

Duke79UNLV77
01-06-2018, 10:54 PM
Matt Jones?

Maybe as close as we’ve had lately, but, much as I loved him, Matt Jones was nowhere near those other guys on defense.

Kjeffrey
01-06-2018, 10:55 PM
A lot of things were bad in this game. A lot. And I agree with SCMatt that coaching was one of them. The lack of bench time was hard to understand. No one outside of Bagley was playing particularly well.

K is incredible, but even he will tell you he's not perfect. And his coaching job in this game (and perhaps this week although we have little insight into that) was not up to snuff.

- Chillin

I completely agree. But some would say K isn't on the court. Yes but he should be able to heavily influence what happens on the court. If the five players out there can't execute the defense they have practiced then I would hope others would be given the opportunity. I am guessing K thinks there isn't anyone who could do a better job since there were limited bench minutes tonight. And I do think if you are good enough to be recruited you probably deserve more than 60 seconds of floor time. There were lots of mistakes in this game, many by players other than Alex O'Connell but his mistakes sent him to the bench for the rest of the game. Or at least until there was 41 seconds left.

godins
01-06-2018, 10:55 PM
Should we go packline defense? Something needs to change on that end. Really, with our length and athleticism, we should be able to be a good defensive team.

I wish packline was something we could just "go," as it would catapult this team to its full potential. But alas, the packline requires an incredible amount of discipline, communication, and awareness -- something UVA seems to have in spades (and we lack completely). In fact, watching their game against UNC today I was amazed at how even their young players excel, giving maximum effort, taking zero possessions off. If only...

CDu
01-06-2018, 10:56 PM
Basketball is weird. This team has some big wins (vs Florida, vs Michigan State, at Indiana, vs FSU) but man do we have head scratching losses. BC and NCSU are decent but I don't think they're NCAA Tournament teams. Maybe I'm wrong. This defense is funny to watch at times. Surrendering 90+ ppg in the conference. Woof. Oh well. Coach K has time to figure it out. Go Duke.

To be fair, Indiana is awful. BC is notably better than Indiana. And the UF win is looking less impressive. But yeah, freshmen-heavy team not playing with any consistency game to game.

kshepinthehouse
01-06-2018, 10:56 PM
Looks like we will live by the offensive rebound and die by the offensive rebound. Earlier in the game when we went on a big run it seemed we were getting a ton of offensive rebounds. State seemed to shut that off a lot better in the second half. With our lack of 3 point shooting it is imperative we get on the boards. By we didn’t do a good enough job of that tonight.

TKG
01-06-2018, 10:58 PM
In our three conference games, we have given up 89 points to BC, 93 to Florida State and 96 to NC State. So we are giving up, on average, more than 92 points per game in conference. No more Evansville and St. Francis on the schedule.

devildeac
01-06-2018, 11:00 PM
In our three conference games, we have given up 89 points to BC, 93 to Florida State and 96 to NC State. So we are giving up, on average, more than 92 points per game in conference. No more Evansville and St. Francis on the schedule.

An alarming trend. Next game >100? :eek::eek:

CameronDuke
01-06-2018, 11:01 PM
UVA has hands down the best defense in this conference and arguably the best team.

Someone can disagree with me if they want but currently the ACC goes through UVA and there's not an extremely close 2nd. Maybe Clemson? No one better say Notre Dame without Colson.

sagegrouse
01-06-2018, 11:01 PM
Positives:

Bagley is the best one-on-five player in the country.
We don't have to worry any more about retiring Grayson's jersey.
Our three-point defense (5-14) was much improved over the BC game.
We don't need a bench -- we are only going to use five players.

Kjeffrey
01-06-2018, 11:02 PM
An alarming trend. Next game >100? :eek::eek:

That would be alarming since I think it is Pitt.

PackMan97
01-06-2018, 11:02 PM
Keatts wins the post-game presser.


Keatts: “Every team we play, I’m going to tell them they’re ranked no. 2 in the country.”

NC State advances to 2-0 for the same vs teams ranked #2.

Wheat/"/"/"
01-06-2018, 11:04 PM
State had a hop in their step the entire game and they made good sharp cuts/movement on both sides of the floor. They were wound up tight but played loose/confident and earned that win.

I thought their biggest key was the aggressiveness off the dribble and willingness to make the pass after causing the defense to rotate was what killed Duke' s defense. Duke has really struggled to stay in front of the ball this season in games I've seen.

It also helped State that they made some big shots in key moments...the home advantage had those kids focused.

I really like to watch those tough little players like Beverly create havoc, and watch a thoroughbred like Bagley roam the court like royalty. Great game to watch as a college BB fan.

College basketball is a game of matchups and intensity as much as talent. State might not have had the talent advantage, but they had the will to win tonight.

CameronDuke
01-06-2018, 11:05 PM
When's the last time Duke won the ACC regular season title outright? Don't tell me it was 2006 with JJ. LOL. Over a decade ago...WOW!

It's still not impossible as we are not even 20% done with our ACC regular season schedule but I certainly did not expect to start 1-2 in the league with this squad. I still think 13-5 is possible in the league with this squad but don't know if that will win the ACC regular season title.

subzero02
01-06-2018, 11:08 PM
Maybe as close as we’ve had lately, but, much as I loved him, Matt Jones was nowhere near those other guys on defense.

Sam Dekker begs to differ.... but overall, I agree

Coballs
01-06-2018, 11:08 PM
2016-17...Round 2

uh_no
01-06-2018, 11:09 PM
UVA has hands down the best defense in this conference

the conference? they are easily the best defense in the country.

CajunDevil
01-06-2018, 11:10 PM
Which was worse - K's use of the bench, Duke's defensive rotations, or O'Connell's new do?

PackMan97
01-06-2018, 11:11 PM
the conference? they are easily the best defense in the country.

Heck, I'd love to see what they could do against an NBA team. Most professional players never see any sort of team defense quite like UVa's..

CameronDuke
01-06-2018, 11:12 PM
the conference? they are easily the best defense in the country.

Agreed. Since conference play has commenced, however, I'm only watching ACC hoops primarily from here on out.

The way it looks now, if UVA doesn't make the final four this year, depending on matchups, Bennett has a serious mental block coaching in the Big Dance or very, very bad luck in the NCAAT.

dukelifer
01-06-2018, 11:13 PM
NC State can play when they're focused, they seem to play up or down to the level of competition. Give them credit for hitting shots down the stretch as it was starting to get interesting. We're a little banged up right now with Bolden out, Delaurier's hamstring and whatever was going on with Duval's ankle.

Giving up 90 points in three straight ACC games is cause to worry, no way to ignore that. Let's hope they gradually learn to play better defense.

The pendulum this year seems to be swinging away from the OAD strategy, but we have three months for that to change.

UNC is 1-2 in league play as well. Nothing easy on the road in the ACC.

Duke lost a lot of players last year. They could have stocked up with more players like AOC and Tucker and Goldwire but I suspect that team would be struggling even more. They recruited the best players they could but even those do not come to college knowing how to play team D. We have enough data to know this team has big issues to solve. They were lucky to dodge a bunch of bullets in Portland- but the issues remain. But again Duke was within 3 with 3 to play and the wheels fell off. That is more concerning that their D for the bulk of the game. Duval did not make plays and Allen did not hit shots. Cant win when your guards are not doing their thing. College ball is about guard play and both guards did not execute in money time. They fix that- and Duke should be okay- even with awful D for 37 minutes.

ipatent
01-06-2018, 11:13 PM
Which was worse - K's use of the bench, Duke's defensive rotations, or O'Connell's new do?

Enough negativity here without making fun of a player's haircut.

CameronDuke
01-06-2018, 11:13 PM
Heck, I'd love to see what they could do against an NBA team. Most professional players never see any sort of team defense quite like UVa's..

I remember when Duke used to defend like UVA does under Bennett. Sigh...

dukelifer
01-06-2018, 11:14 PM
Agreed. Since conference play has commenced, however, I'm only watching ACC hoops primarily from here on out.

The way it looks now, if UVA doesn't make the final four this year, depending on matchups, Bennett has a serious mental block coaching in the Big Dance or very, very bad luck in the NCAAT.

UVa is not making the FF. There are some constants in basketball.

ncexnyc
01-06-2018, 11:14 PM
Heck, I'd love to see what they could do against an NBA team. Most professional players never see any sort of team defense quite like UVa's..

I know you're sky high after the win, but let's not get to carried away.

brlftz
01-06-2018, 11:15 PM
They do, Duke doesn't recruit them any more though. Why recruit Billy King when you can have Mark Macon?

I see what you did there. Savage. And spot on.

DUKIE V(A)
01-06-2018, 11:16 PM
I watched the UVA game vs. Carolina extremely closely, and they do two things that we need to start doing if we wish to make this a special season:

1. They have five guys committed to playing incredibly hard defense every possession. We were unwilling to hustle down the floor tonight and we look like we just assume we can overcome our lack of defensive effort with great offense.

2. UVA almost always works the ball for a good shot. We are incredibly talented but at times incredibly inpatient. If tonight's turnovers were cut in half (against a fairly uninspiring State defense) we probably win despite our lousy defensive effort.

I wouldn't trade our coach or team for UVA's but I admire how they play. If our guys can summon that effort/commitment for 40 minutes, I don't see many (if any) more losses. If we can't, we will continue to struggle to win games on the road and probably will exit the ACC and NCAA tournaments earlier than we all hope.

jv001
01-06-2018, 11:16 PM
Was really hoping tonight's game would help me take my mind off of some very disturbing things going on in my family right now. I really picked the wrong game for that to happen. Some observations:

When Trent fouled Freeman on the early 3 point attempt and he made all 3 shots, I thought to myself, I hope this doesn't get him going. From the game write ups I saw that he was shooting poorly this season. I guess I was right because he played a heck of a game.

It looked like from the start that Trevon was told to attack and attack and attack the basket. He made some very good drives but he also turned the ball over several times. He was out of control several times.

As for our defense, all I can say is what defense. Our guards reach too many times for steals that put them out of position when they are unsuccessful.
I don't know if this team will ever learn Duke's man2man defense. We are way better in our zone. Our bigs did not run the floor very well on defense tonight. Javin has regressed from the first few games. He does not use his athleticism to his advantage. I think Bolden would have helped tonight more than Javin.

I'm still waiting for some picknroll on offense. Duval is built for this type of play.

I think that this team will need Coach K's best coaching job of his career.

Sorry of the negatives but I can't think of but one positive thing to say, MBIII was once again outstanding. Oh, 2 things, it's only 4 more months until The Masters. :cool: GoDuke!

scottdude8
01-06-2018, 11:18 PM
The posters who are noticing the similarities to 2015 are spot on. I’m at the point where I think, as fans, we have to accept that one-and-done era basketball is going to continuously give us teams that are ultra-talented and ultra-frustrating; teams that are almost equally likely to get to the Final Four as exit in the first weekend. It’s an interesting debate whether you would take that deal or prefer to have a Kansas-like consistency but with teams with lower ceilings. I think my heart might prefer the later, cause the ups and downs of the past five seasons have been killer.

The good news is that this year there doesn’t seem to be any teams clearly on a level above ours, in terms of the eye test and No. 1 seed resumes, other than MSU and Villanova (and as a Michigan fan watching a ton of B1G basketball I think MSU is overrated thanks to a down year in the conference). A No. 1 seed is still well within reach especially with our somewhat favorable ACC slate. Still, it bugs me that our last regular season ACC title was in 2010. I had my sights set on that smaller goal as opposed to the grander scheme to stay grounded. That is now gonna be a challenge to say the least.

The other good news is that this isn’t like past years where we’ve had defensive challenges on the perimeter because of a dearth of athleticism or matchup problems. Our boys have the natural abilities to be good defensive players. There just has to be a team-wide concerted effort. If I were Coach K, I would put all my eggs in the 2-3 zone basket and make teams shoot over us considering our length inside. But that’s about as likely as ***insert UNC scandal joke that I shouldn’t make here***.

Long post. Next play.

PackMan97
01-06-2018, 11:18 PM
Heck, I'd love to see what they could do against an NBA team. Most professional players never see any sort of team defense quite like UVa's..




I know you're sky high after the win, but let's not get to carried away.


I promise I'm not smoking anything illegal!

One of two things happen:
1) The NBA players shred UVa's defense and basketball wins.
2) UVa actually could stop an NBA team and we get to laugh at the NBA from high atop our "amateur" basketball high horse

Either way, it's a win.

Ian
01-06-2018, 11:18 PM
Duke lost a lot of players last year. They could have stocked up with more players like AOC and Tucker and Goldwire but I suspect that team would be struggling even more.

They would be struggling more, but it would be the growing pains of building a foundation for future seasons instead of this hopeless resignation of knowing that that we're stuck in cycle of watching the same season play out with a different cast every year.

MCFinARL
01-06-2018, 11:18 PM
I completely agree. But some would say K isn't on the court. Yes but he should be able to heavily influence what happens on the court. If the five players out there can't execute the defense they have practiced then I would hope others would be given the opportunity. I am guessing K thinks there isn't anyone who could do a better job since there were limited bench minutes tonight. And I do think if you are good enough to be recruited you probably deserve more than 60 seconds of floor time. There were lots of mistakes in this game, many by players other than Alex O'Connell but his mistakes sent him to the bench for the rest of the game. Or at least until there was 41 seconds left.

Well, that is pretty classic. K's main guys can make mistakes and get more minutes; the bench guys and role players get pulled quickly after mistakes. From one perspective, that makes sense--if you basically trust your best players, you give them more leeway--but at times it might not be a bad thing for the starters to be reminded that playing time is earned, and mistakes will lead to someone else getting a chance. I get that K is all that and a bag of chips, but I do, sometimes, wonder whether his approach to playing time is optimal.

Saratoga2
01-06-2018, 11:18 PM
I completely agree. But some would say K isn't on the court. Yes but he should be able to heavily influence what happens on the court. If the five players out there can't execute the defense they have practiced then I would hope others would be given the opportunity. I am guessing K thinks there isn't anyone who could do a better job since there were limited bench minutes tonight. And I do think if you are good enough to be recruited you probably deserve more than 60 seconds of floor time. There were lots of mistakes in this game, many by players other than Alex O'Connell but his mistakes sent him to the bench for the rest of the game. Or at least until there was 41 seconds left.

We were building a solid lead early in the game and then coach K subbed O'Connell and DeLaurier into the game to presumably rest some of our starters. Between the two of them they were guilty of some misplays and our lead disappeared in a hurry. We never seemed to look solid again even with the starters back in. I am not surprised that Coach K stayed away from playing them big minutes although DeLauier got back in but often played an avid but out of control game. Had O'Connell not looked lost out there he might of been the shooting threat from 3 that we needed. Grayson certainly wasn't and neither was Gary.

CameronDuke
01-06-2018, 11:19 PM
UVa is not making the FF. There are some constants in basketball.

Lol, we shall see. Kinda hoping they do as I have an immense admiration for the program Bennett has "built" (maybe resurrected is a better word) at UVA. Undoubtedly, he has put his stamp on their program and immersed his brand on them. And also is an extremely likable guy. Arguably the best remaining coach in the ACC when Coach K/Roy/Leonard Hamilton/Larranaga all retire in the next few (5-10?) years.

azzefkram
01-06-2018, 11:19 PM
Well I'm never wearing that Duke hoodie on game day again. Yeesh that was the Pu Pu platter of dreadful.

dukelifer
01-06-2018, 11:20 PM
They would be struggling more, but it would be the growing pains of building a foundation for future seasons instead of this hopeless resignation of knowing that that we're stuck in cycle of watching the same season play out with a different cast every year.

Well that is not entirely fair. 2015 was not THAT long ago. That season is worth repeating.

devildeac
01-06-2018, 11:22 PM
Rumor has it Duke heard the Wake County Public School System will be on a two hour delay Monday morning and they they thought that declaration began tonight.

(I ain't got much tonight, folks. :rolleyes::o)

ncexnyc
01-06-2018, 11:24 PM
A number of comments about our short bench and some are even saying the stars can do no wrong and get away with it, but Vrank did get a number of minutes at Carter's expense after being soft on a rebound.

Ian
01-06-2018, 11:25 PM
Well that is not entirely fair. 2015 was not THAT long ago. That season is worth repeating.

With an ever growing sample size 2015 is looking more and more like a fluke.

jv001
01-06-2018, 11:25 PM
Lol, we shall see. Kinda hoping they do as I have an immense admiration for the program Bennett has "built" (maybe resurrected is a better word) at UVA. Undoubtedly, he has put his stamp on their program and immersed his brand on them. And also is an extremely likable guy. Arguably the best remaining coach in the ACC when Coach K/Roy/Leonard Hamilton/Larranaga all retire in the next few (5-10?) years.

I put him ahead of all the bolded ones above and pretty much on par with the GOAT! Recruiting goes to Coach K, in game and scheme, I'll take Coach Bennett. GoDuke!

CameronDuke
01-06-2018, 11:26 PM
With an ever growing sample size 2015 is looking more and more like a fluke.

Agreed. If Duke doesn't have similar success to 2015 this season - not necessarily a natty title but maybe just consistently stellar play in February, March - then 2015 is arguably the exception and not the norm.

Dukehky
01-06-2018, 11:27 PM
Put your post-game thoughts here. No venting or bashing of our players and coaches.

Then there isn't really anything to say.

Colossally disappointing performance by everyone not named Marvin Bagley.

K's post game presser was filled with excuses. Before, it was they hadn't had enough practice time. Now it's that they haven't played much. He said he had to play Alex more, he played 1 minute when Grayson was having one of the worst games of his college career. Everyone has off days, I think today was one of K's both in his coaching and in what he said after. No one is perfect, and he'll be better moving forward, but today was bad. No excuse for giving up 96 to a team that lost by 30 to a Notre Dame team without Bonzie and Farrell.

Dukehky
01-06-2018, 11:28 PM
I watched the UVA game vs. Carolina extremely closely, and they do two things that we need to start doing if we wish to make this a special season:

1. They have five guys committed to playing incredibly hard defense every possession. We were unwilling to hustle down the floor tonight and we look like we just assume we can overcome our lack of defensive effort with great offense.

2. UVA almost always works the ball for a good shot. We are incredibly talented but at times incredibly inpatient. If tonight's turnovers were cut in half (against a fairly uninspiring State defense) we probably win despite our lousy defensive effort.

I wouldn't trade our coach or team for UVA's but I admire how they play. If our guys can summon that effort/commitment for 40 minutes, I don't see many (if any) more losses. If we can't, we will continue to struggle to win games on the road and probably will exit the ACC and NCAA tournaments earlier than we all hope.

I would rather lose to NC State on the road every year than play like UVA. But that's just me.

Rich
01-06-2018, 11:29 PM
Then there isn't really anything to say.

Colossally disappointing performance by everyone not named Marvin Bagley.

K's post game presser was filled with excuses. Before, it was they hadn't had enough practice time. Now it's that they haven't played much. He said he had to play Alex more, he played 1 minute when Grayson was having one of the worst games of his college career. Everyone has off days, I think today was one of K's both in his coaching and in what he said after. No one is perfect, and he'll be better moving forward, but today was bad. No excuse for giving up 96 to a team that lost by 30 to a Notre Dame team without Bonzie and Farrell.

Link for the press conference?

jv001
01-06-2018, 11:30 PM
I would rather lose to NC State on the road every year than play like UVA. But that's just me.

You probably really liked the 4 Corner offense that Cheaten Dean used. GoDuke!

PackMan97
01-06-2018, 11:30 PM
I put him ahead of all the bolded ones above and pretty much on par with the GOAT! Recruiting goes to Coach K, in game and scheme, I'll take Coach Bennett. GoDuke!

The question becomes...is the scheme holding back his recruiting?

There is no question in football, Paul Johnson has a great "scheme" that enables them to win more games than their talent might suggest. However, that same scheme really cripples them in recruiting. Can you imagine what GT and Johnson might be able to do with Alabama or Clemson level talent?

A coach can have an incredibly successful scheme, but if kids don't want to play in it...Bennett is clearly able to get very good recruits, and also clearly recruits kids who want to play his brand of basketball...but is that enough?

This is one of the things that has me excited about Keatts and the future. I unlike Sendek's slow methodical pace, Gottfried's UCLA high-post offense...I think kids will want to play in Keatts' style of offense and defense. State has always recruited better than our recent history would suggest, I'm hoping that finally pays off on the court.

dukelifer
01-06-2018, 11:32 PM
With an ever growing sample size 2015 is looking more and more like a fluke. If you can win a NC every 5 years- you are in very good company- fluke or no fluke. MSU would love to have that problem- many FF's and no cigar in the past 17.

CrazyNotCrazie
01-06-2018, 11:33 PM
That was ugly. Our defense has not been good all season but I was hoping that having a week of no school and no games would allow us to make some progress. So much for that. Grayson was totally invisible tonight. Carter seemed off. Javin looked lost when he was in the game. State just seemed to want it more. That is on both the players and the coaches. Imagine what this team would be like if Bagley hadn't shown up at the last minute?

CameronDuke
01-06-2018, 11:34 PM
The question becomes...is the scheme holding Bennett back his recruiting?

There is no question in football, Paul Johnson has a great "scheme" that enables them to win more games than their talent might suggest. However, that same scheme really cripples them in recruiting. Can you imagine what GT and Johnson might be able to do with Alabama or Clemson level talent?

A coach can have an incredibly successful scheme, but if kids don't want to play in it...Bennett is clearly able to get very good recruits, and also clearly recruits kids who want to play his brand of basketball...but is that enough?

That's a good question but I don't think Bennett's recruiting is a drawback or holding him back. Lots of his recruits have gone on to play in the NBA. Joe Harris, Malcolm Brogdon, and London Perrantes to name a few. And he has been criticized for slow offensive play over the years but this season it seems he has loosened up A TOUCH on that philosophy. That meaning, shen UVA has a clear fast break in front of them they're taking it this year when in years past they would slow it up.

DUKIE V(A)
01-06-2018, 11:36 PM
The question becomes...is the scheme holding back his recruiting?

There is no question in football, Paul Johnson has a great "scheme" that enables them to win more games than their talent might suggest. However, that same scheme really cripples them in recruiting. Can you imagine what GT and Johnson might be able to do with Alabama or Clemson level talent?

A coach can have an incredibly successful scheme, but if kids don't want to play in it...Bennett is clearly able to get very good recruits, and also clearly recruits kids who want to play his brand of basketball...but is that enough?

Bennett recruits quite well. He has talent (not Duke level talent but a high level of talent nonetheless). Just because his guys play hard does not mean they do not have talent. He just recruits a different type of talented player -- one that excels on the defensive end. Those dudes get after it.

Saratoga2
01-06-2018, 11:37 PM
I would rather lose to NC State on the road every year than play like UVA. But that's just me.

You may get your wish

jv001
01-06-2018, 11:38 PM
That's a good question but I don't think Bennett's recruiting is a drawback or holding him back. Lots of his recruits have gone on to play in the NBA. Joe Harris, Malcolm Brogdon, and London Perrantes to name a few. And he has been criticized for slow offensive play over the years but this season it seems he has loosened up A TOUCH on that philosophy. That meaning, shen UVA has a clear fast break in front of them they're taking it this year when in years past they would slow it up.

I like watching the Hoos play because they play as a team. Bennett is a master at getting his players to buy into his concept(Team over self). GoDuke!

Wheat/"/"/"
01-06-2018, 11:40 PM
I would rather lose to NC State on the road every year than play like UVA. But that's just me.

I'm just the opposite, I love watching how UVA plays and competes. Who can impose their will? That's the essence of competition.

Can you imagine a team like this years Duke team, with all that physical talent, playing like UVA defensively and then playing with that same discipline offensively to get good shots?

uh_no
01-06-2018, 11:40 PM
The posters who are noticing the similarities to 2015 are spot on. I’m at the point where I think, as fans, we have to accept that one-and-done era basketball is going to continuously give us teams that are ultra-talented and ultra-frustrating; teams that are almost equally likely to get to the Final Four as exit in the first weekend.

I notice similarities to 2012, 2014, and 2016 as well. I hope these guys can figure it out....but I'm not going to pretend that it's all sunshine and roses because, well, they did it in 2015. 2015 had amile and matt playing superb defense.

I'm not sure where the turn around is going to come from, but it has to be something. Perhaps the guy who set the line at 3.5 was the only sane one of the bunch.

On the bright side, at least they didn't kill us from 3 :)

karmacoma
01-06-2018, 11:41 PM
Then there isn't really anything to say.

Colossally disappointing performance by everyone not named Marvin Bagley.

K's post game presser was filled with excuses. Before, it was they hadn't had enough practice time. Now it's that they haven't played much. He said he had to play Alex more, he played 1 minute when Grayson was having one of the worst games of his college career. Everyone has off days, I think today was one of K's both in his coaching and in what he said after. No one is perfect, and he'll be better moving forward, but today was bad. No excuse for giving up 96 to a team that lost by 30 to a Notre Dame team without Bonzie and Farrell.

I didn't hear the presser, but did hear his comments on the radio network. Sobering. He gave State the credit it deserved, and blamed himself and the rest of the coaching staff for failing to convey that we'll take the best shot from every team every night. He said the guys aren't able to apply what's learned from the scouting report to the court. And he said we lacked poise and leadership all game long, both ends of the floor.

He said twice how disappointed he was. He said trying to win by scoring 95+ game in, game out wasn't a good formula. And he said if we don't get better defensively, we're going to keep getting our butts whipped. Literally, he said those words.

I hope I'm wrong about what I say next. He didn't sound like a man who thought the ship was going to turn around soon (if at all). There was no talk of reaching potential, no hint of "we're getting better, we just need more time together." There was no optimism in his remarks. I can't recall hearing him sounding more exasperated. He didn't sound angry, just ... defeated. Like he's coaching a team that's not coachable. Again, I really, really hope I'm wrong about that.

Ian
01-06-2018, 11:44 PM
I would rather lose to NC State on the road every year than play like UVA. But that's just me.

I completely disagree. I love watching UVA play defense. Because they play it like they are playing offense, just without the ball. Meaning they are not reacting, they are agressive, attacking, disrupting, they are active trying to make the other team make a mistake or force a bad shot, and they play like a cohesive unit. It's beautiful to watch.

dukelifer
01-06-2018, 11:48 PM
I notice similarities to 2012, 2014, and 2016 as well. I hope these guys can figure it out...but I'm not going to pretend that it's all sunshine and roses because, well, they did it in 2015. 2015 had amile and matt playing superb defense.

I'm not sure where the turn around is going to come from, but it has to be something. Perhaps the guy who set the line at 3.5 was the only sane one of the bunch.

On the bright side, at least they didn't kill us from 3 :)

There are lot of reasons for concern. We will see if there is any improvement on Wednesday. It is not out of the question that Pitt will play their best game of the year. This group has not figured out that every team has them circled.

ncexnyc
01-06-2018, 11:48 PM
Success is a monster that takes on a life of its own. Duke has 10 consecutive 25 win seasons and for some around here it seems that if we don't make the Final Four the season was a bust.

I think it's safe to say that if UVA continues its winning ways their fan base will get to this same point, it's only human nature.

dukelifer
01-06-2018, 11:50 PM
I didn't hear the presser, but did hear his comments on the radio network. Sobering. He gave State the credit it deserved, and blamed himself and the rest of the coaching staff for failing to convey that we'll take the best shot from every team every night. He said the guys aren't able to apply what's learned from the scouting report to the court. And he said we lacked poise and leadership all game long, both ends of the floor.

He said twice how disappointed he was. He said trying to win by scoring 95+ game in, game out wasn't a good formula. And he said if we don't get better defensively, we're going to keep getting our butts whipped. Literally, he said those words.

I hope I'm wrong about what I say next. He didn't sound like a man who thought the ship was going to turn around soon (if at all). There was no talk of reaching potential, no hint of "we're getting better, we just need more time together." There was no optimism in his remarks. I can't recall hearing him sounding more exasperated. He didn't sound angry, just ... defeated. Like he's coaching a team that's not coachable. Again, I really, really hope I'm wrong about that.

I did not hear it but he has not even taken away their Duke stuff and barred them from the locker room. I cannot imagine Coach K is defeated in any way. Not in his DNA.

karmacoma
01-06-2018, 11:53 PM
I did not hear it but he has not even taken away their Duke stuff and barred them from the locker room. I cannot imagine Coach K is defeated in any way. Not in his DNA.

I suspect you're right, dukelifer. "Defeated" is probably going too far. "Disappointed" is the word he used, and if anyone should be taken at his word, it's K.

SoCalDukeFan
01-06-2018, 11:56 PM
i consider Coach K to be the greatest college basketball coach of all time, heck probably the best basketball coach of all time.

But he may not be the best college basketball coach of freshmen dominated teams. As someone else posted, 2015 could be an outlier.

I would rather watch Duke teams playing like teams of old with tough man to man on D and ball movement and motion on O either then Virginia or the Duke of today.

SoCal

Rich
01-06-2018, 11:59 PM
The thing that just really bugs me is that we all agreed that UNCheat had the benefit of the unbalanced ACC schedule last year with the better teams at home and the easier teams away. And let's be honest, they took advantage of it. We looked at that schedule and saw that WE had that schedule this year, and yet we're not taking advantage of it. Are you kidding me? Losses at BC and State? It's really frustrating.

I know, I know, I was among many of us who said it's going to be a chaotic, up and down year with all these freshmen, but I guess I really didn't believe it. I thought with that ACC schedule we'd march through relatively unscathed. Not undefeated but only a handful of losses. Right now we have arguably the most talented group of players in the country, but we're not a very good team...and it's damn frustrating.

DUKIE V(A)
01-07-2018, 12:17 AM
Success is a monster that takes on a life of its own. Duke has 10 consecutive 25 win seasons and for some around here it seems that if we don't make the Final Four the season was a bust.

I think it's safe to say that if UVA continues its winning ways their fan base will get to this same point, it's only human nature.

An all-time great VA High School Baseball Coach that I have had the privilege to coach with once said after a shocking, season-ending loss "success is the bridge to misery." So true.

Furniture
01-07-2018, 12:51 AM
Krzyzewski on Duke radio: "We have not been able to convince our players that we're going to get everybody's amazing shot. ... We did not have any poise at all tonight. I don't have the answer."

Kedsy
01-07-2018, 01:40 AM
Goodbye #1 seed. Goodbye regular season acc title.

Seems we get a post like this earlier and earlier every year.


Goodbye #1 seed. Goodbye regular season acc title.

Also, we were 2-2 early in 2015 and 3-2 early in 2010 and got #1 seeds both years and won the regular season acc title (tied) in 2010.



Trevon- For those who have been bashing Him this year I would say he continues to man up every game. He’s not a big scorer, but no one is more fearless going to the rim. Every game


He scored 18 tonight.


GTrentJr seems to be on an every other game pace. Did he score other than free throws?

He scored 13 points and only took four free throws. You do the math.


Do they still make players like Brickey, Billy King, T Hill, and Davis, who don’t come in (and may not leave) with elite offensive talent, but first earn playing time through great defense? When was the last time we really had a guy like that and played him serious minutes?

You ask when we last had players who "first earn playing time" with defense, and when someone mentions Matt Jones you say he wasn't as good as Billy King, et al? When recruiting, how can the staff tell whether a defensive-minded player is going to end up Billy-King-good or Matt-Jones-good? The fact is we've had at least one player on the roster who wasn't super-highly rated and played good-to-great defense pretty much every season: Matt Jones (2014-2017), Amile Jefferson (2013-2017), Tyler Thornton (2011-2014), Brian Zoubek (2010 at least), Lance Thomas (2007-2010), Dave McClure (2005-2009), DeMarcus Nelson (2005-2008), etc.

Matt Jones made All-ACC defensive team last season, by the way. Not NDPOY like Billy King, but still should be good enough to be an answer to your question.


I was hoping maybe Javin, but he a very bad night tonight.

One bad night doesn't mean Javin is not another player who gets on the floor through good defense.


And it made us play at a slower pace than we needed to.

It was a pace of 74.9. That's pretty fast, a little faster than our season average.


The lack of defense has much to do with poor rotations. I think it would be a mistake to assume that doesn't improve by March. The turnovers and missed rebounds will make for some harsh times in the film room but are an easier and quicker fix.

Totally agree with this. Most reasonable post in this thread, IMO.


Bagley doesn’t seem to have the length to be a great shot blocker and Carter seems a step behind and not able to be that help defender either.

Marvin blocked four shots tonight, and Wendell is blocking two shots a game. Sadly, blocking shots and being a good help defender are not the same thing. I agree neither of them is helping or rotating as well as they should be.

mr. synellinden
01-07-2018, 02:00 AM
Wow. Check out these comments from Sean Miller about Arizona. Sounds like he’s expressing a similar sentiment to what Coach K said quite less directly following the game tonight.

http://www.espn.com/mens-college-basketball/story/_/id/21987261/arizona-wildcats-coach-sean-miller-says-reach-struggling-team

akg4y
01-07-2018, 02:06 AM
The question becomes...is the scheme holding back his recruiting?

A coach can have an incredibly successful scheme, but if kids don't want to play in it...Bennett is clearly able to get very good recruits, and also clearly recruits kids who want to play his brand of basketball...but is that enough?

I think for now the system may scare off some recruits but people really underestimate the impact history and championships have. We've only been consistently good for 5 years. We still haven't won a championship. Our recruiting is improving, and now maybe in light of the scandal it will improve more. Also TB turned a bunch of basically no name recruits into now 4 players that have had playing time in the NBA from a single team. If UVA keeps churning out NBA players then the recruits will continue to improve, to the point that he wants them to. Keep in mind a team of five one and done players will NEVER work for our system. One maybe two, sure, but Tony needs players that will stick around for four years and some players that are willing to redshirt. You aren't going to get that from many five star recruits.

Steven43
01-07-2018, 02:07 AM
This team still has the talent to make a run at a title. But there is a lot of growth necessary between now and March.
Title?? Title of what?

InSpades
01-07-2018, 03:35 AM
This team is very frustrating to watch.

They don't seem to play intelligently. When NC State went on their 13 or so point run late in the 1st half every Duke miss was a jump shot. If we haven't figured it out yet... we're not a very good jump shooting team. We went 28 of 45 for 62%+ from 2... We were 8 of 18 on 2-point "jumpers". I know we can't always take inside shots but... boy are we way better at them. Trevon especially... 7 of 10 on layups, 1 for 4 on 3s. Someone (K) should tell him to stop shooting 3s.

There is also a lack of hustle. Guys don't run back on defense consistently enough. They stand around and watch Marvin and Wendell rebound the ball (on both ends). There just isn't a sense of urgency unless it's rushing the ball down the court to take a bad shot (see above).

Marvin is still amazing. It will be a shame if we waste his 1 year at Duke w/ a team that can't play defense because he is a special talent. 11 of 14 from the field and those were not easy shots (well, some of them were, but many were not).

Another positive... we shot free throws really well.

Hopefully we figure something out very quickly.

bigperm13
01-07-2018, 03:52 AM
It's January 7. The team will get over this loss. Y'all should follow accordingly. Next play.

Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15
01-07-2018, 04:30 AM
Title?? Title of what?

Really dude?

Because a second loss by January means no chance in March?

Look, I get people's frustrations with this team right now, but throwing in the towel just seems absurd at this point. Sure, if you want to, that's your right I suppose. But a lot of us are keeping the home fires burning, and it will take a lot more than two losses to discourage me.

Steven43
01-07-2018, 05:17 AM
Really dude?

Because a second loss by January means no chance in March?

Look, I get people's frustrations with this team right now, but throwing in the towel just seems absurd at this point. Sure, if you want to, that's your right I suppose. But a lot of us are keeping the home fires burning, and it will take a lot more than two losses to discourage me.

I think it’s kind of silly to be talking about titles right now. Do you think Coach K is talking with the team about titles? Kind of doubt it. I don’t think it makes sense for us to be talking about them, either, regardless of how the team is doing. Take the games one at a time. Why look beyond the next game?

Billy Dat
01-07-2018, 06:05 AM
In his presser, K talked about this team needing to play games, and I tend to agree. We may take some Ls, but I am thankful that we are headed into the regular conference 2-games-a-week schedule. I am glad that this weird stretch of at least a week between games has ended.

K's other comments basically boiled down to:
Huge praise for State's effort and toughness, especially their bigs. We played young sans poise. He put blame on himself, the staff and the players. He also said we aren't deep, especially with Bolden out (#1 MCL sprain, weren't sure until shootaround that he wouldn't play). He said this team needs to understand that the team you watch on tape may not be the team that shows up to play you (aka we get everyone's best shot), got really defensive when asked about the defense and went into his d-head mode on the reporters ('should I check your back articles to see how I think you can improve?'), said Duval's leg issues were cramps, agreed that Grayson did not play well, basically said we need to keep working.

K has always talked about young teams letting poor offense hurt their defense and, considering that we are a bad defensive team, I felt like this was really true tonight, especially the turnovers. I love that Trevon was attacking the rim, but his 8 TOs were painful.

I thought our youth showed tonight in not understanding situations. We had two early leads in the first half which we let them erase quickly, usually with turnovers. At times when it was critical to secure defensive rebounds to give them one-and-done possessions we gave them extra opportunities and we usually gave up subsequent baskets, when it was time to keep feeding MBIII to try and foul out their bigs, we took perimeter shots or just turned the ball over. It felt like we had turnovers at so many crucial points in the game. Then, having allowed the game to hang in the balance, crazy stuff started happening...Beverley's 3 pointer with under 5 to go comes to mind, the kid who was shooting under 30% from 3 nailing that and-1 3, etc.

I am not thrilled that our bench was so short, and I agree that Alex needed to get pulled as quickly as he did as he looked unprepared to play (is this a Samson situation?), but I'd have liked K to give him another chance earlier.

This team requires the long view. Again, my gut tells me they need game reps to adjust to conference intensity. As long as we stay healthy, we should continue to get better. The thing we don't know about is team chemistry and the pecking order of leadership, but we always have to cross our fingers about that.

InSpades
01-07-2018, 06:18 AM
I love that Trevon was attacking the rim, but his 8 TOs were painful.


8 TOs is way too many...

Trevon was 7 of 10 on layups. Which is A. a great percentage and B. a ton of layups (as defined by ESPN's play-by-play). I wonder how many of his TOs were a result of him making a concerted effort to get to the rim? If so... I don't really mind those TOs. Obviously I don't like them... but the only way he's going to learn to be successful at driving to the rim is by doing it.

On the other hand... how many of his TOs were just inadvisable passes? Those are the kind of mental errors we need to fix.

He's shown flashes of real talent getting to the rim in the past 2 games alone. Hopefully we can hone that and he can improve on it going forward. More driving and less 3s from Trevon would be much appreciated!

Billy Dat
01-07-2018, 06:45 AM
More driving and less 3s from Trevon would be much appreciated!

I hear you, I don't like that he took as many 3s as Grayson, of course, their % made was the same (25% on 4 shots each to go with Gary's 1-5).

But I always have to check myself when I try and criticize our #1 ranked offense as that is not where our problems lie, even though I felt the turnovers hurt our defense.

State out-offensive rebounded us 14 to 12. Combined with the turnovers, they had 67 shots to our 60. Both teams were very good from the line on pretty high volume 23-25 for State, 20-23 for us)

Bob Green
01-07-2018, 07:15 AM
Bad offense hurts the defense and as bad as our defense is it cannot afford to be hurt by the offense.

What happened to our interior passing? Earlier in the season, the team displayed solid interior passing between the big men. I can't recall seeing Bagley and Carter passing the ball to each other recently.

This is the worst perimeter shooting team we have had in a long, long time. Hard to win shooting 3-15 on 3PT FGs.

arnie
01-07-2018, 07:19 AM
I notice similarities to 2012, 2014, and 2016 as well. I hope these guys can figure it out...but I'm not going to pretend that it's all sunshine and roses because, well, they did it in 2015. 2015 had amile and matt playing superb defense.

I'm not sure where the turn around is going to come from, but it has to be something. Perhaps the guy who set the line at 3.5 was the only sane one of the bunch.

On the bright side, at least they didn't kill us from 3 :)

Good post. To all that are bringing up 2015, that team had veterans with ability/desire to play D and don’t forget Quin also on the team to provide leadership. Also, 2015 had one player that was OAD to start the season, this team has four. 2015 and 2018 teams are dissimilar IMO. You may find a better comparison to 2018 with the 2019 team.

Saratoga2
01-07-2018, 07:26 AM
We had another example of Duke's tendency to focus it's offense on the inside. It appears that less than 20% of our scoring has been coming from the perimeter including 3's and longer 2's. Part of that results from Bagley's incredible ability to score on the inside but also a lot has to do with our inability to get open and shoot a decent percentage from 3. Neither Grayson nor Gary have been able to have enough accuracy to keep the defense honest.

So we have a young point guard in Trevon and also others trying to force the ball inside. He did a nice job of scoring 18 points but unfortunately the middle is clogged up and he wound up turning the ball over too often when trying to get iside. Trevon also has a tendency to try to make spectacular passes such as full court or no look and they also result in TO's. Going forward we need to value the ball more and reduce the TO's. Part of that involves our perimeter shooters carrying more of the scoring and relieving the pressure inside. Easier said than done. Grayson had 8 points in nearly 40 minutes and shot 25% from 3. I don't expect Trevon to suddenly develop into a perimeter shooter and Gary still hasn't shown special ability in that way so perhaps O'Connell but he seems to have the message to go inside at all costs.

While others seem to want to focus most of the attention on our defense, and it was bad last night, we also need to deal with the offense or we will face frequent losses in the ACC.

Bob Green
01-07-2018, 07:30 AM
Well, we are pressing, and it isn’t working. Two easy baskets for State. I really think we are better making them try to score in the halfcourt rather than extending what is already a bad defense.

We utilized the 3/4 court press I desired to see and it didn't work. Not only did we not create turnovers we didn't disrupt State's offensive flow.

hudlow
01-07-2018, 07:32 AM
Start the bench.
It's time for a wake up call.

Bike4Fun
01-07-2018, 07:39 AM
Having two dominant rebounders is fun, but there probably are consequences if those two guys are mentally focused on rebound first. The NBA has only 10 players in double figure rebounds, and New Orleans is the only team with two of those--they are the 3rd worst defensive team in points allowed. This isn't necessarily cause-effect, but just an association with quite a few confounders (e.g., minutes played). Basketball strategy is all about tradeoffs, and it feels to me that a team is trading off something to have two dominant rebounders. If you get in a game where your individual decisions to get in position for the rebound don't lead to dominant team rebounding, then you lose. It all seems fixable, with many more games and practices ahead.

Matches
01-07-2018, 07:50 AM
The bad defense has persisted too long now to be viewed as an effort problem. It’s not related to the shortcomings of a particular group of kids, because it’s persisted through massive turnover. It’s not about youth - there are tons of young players and relatively young teams in NCAA MBB who play better defense than we do.

It’s a system or coaching issue. Honestly, it has to be. Some of our past teams had the excuse of being small-ish, of lacking rim protectors, of lacking lock-down PGs - this team has none of those problems. We have insane athleticism, size and length at just about every position on the floor. There’s no reason - none - why this team shouldn’t be a really good defensive team - or at minimum a team that can shut down a team that lost to UNC-Greensboro.

Generally I’m not in the “K needs to play more guys” camp - I think fatigue is overblown and have no problem with playing the starters as much as they can handle. But I will confess I am weary of the “we’re not deep” excuse too. The guys 6-11 on or bench would all be starting or playing rotation minutes for NCSU - we have WAY more quality depth than they do, we just choose not to use it. That’s a valid choice but it is a choice, not something imposed on the coaching staff.

Best thing about this game is that it was only one game and only counts once in the standings.

NYBri
01-07-2018, 07:50 AM
At this point, I see this group as OAD gone wild. Tons of talent. Not enough team. The mix is out of whack.

Billy Dat
01-07-2018, 07:52 AM
While others seem to want to focus most of the attention on our defense, and it was bad last night, we also need to deal with the offense or we will face frequent losses in the ACC.

Our offense is currently ranked as one of the best college offenses in the past 15 years. It looks different than what we are used to, but it is a beast.


Having two dominant rebounders is fun, but there probably are consequences if those two guys are mentally focused on rebound first. The NBA has only 10 players in double figure rebounds, and New Orleans is the only team with two of those--they are the 3rd worst defensive team in points allowed. This isn't necessarily cause-effect, but just an association with quite a few confounders (e.g., minutes played). Basketball strategy is all about tradeoffs, and it feels to me that a team is trading off something to have two dominant rebounders. If you get in a game where your individual decisions to get in position for the rebound don't lead to dominant team rebounding, then you lose. It all seems fixable, with many more games and practices ahead.

We are a great offensive rebounding team but not a good defensive rebounding team. As our defense is now not even top 100 on KenPom, we are a just a bad defensive team and rebounding is part of the problem.

dukelifer
01-07-2018, 07:55 AM
Bad offense hurts the defense and as bad as our defense is it cannot afford to be hurt by the offense.

What happened to our interior passing? Earlier in the season, the team displayed solid interior passing between the big men. I can't recall seeing Bagley and Carter passing the ball to each other recently.

This is the worst perimeter shooting team we have had in a long, long time. Hard to win shooting 3-15 on 3PT FGs.

The inability to hit the three is a big, big concern. Allen played poorly or was well defended but if he is effectively absent- this team does not have enough. The team stopped what was working and then when State made their run- lost their poise. I still contend that Duke was in the game throughout and was within 3 in the last few minutes. A good team finds a way to win it. Not only did the team fail to execute- State played great in that stretch. They did what BC did. That pattern has to change. Most every game in the ACC that involves Duke will come down to the last few minutes as teams play their best against them. It is not easy to win those on the road. The ability to hit threes is critical when down and unless Allen is taking them- who will be that guy? Right now it has to be Trent if he is up to it. This team has a number of great players but the collective has many flaws. Experience can help hide them. Duke can survive its horrible D - as that will take a lot of time to fix- but they cannot turn the ball over - yesterday Duval after a great end of game against FSU- forced things with his passes- and they have to make threes.

Right now the goal of this team is to make the tourney and to be playing their BEST in March. And that is not a given. Both UNC and Duke are down in ACC play- Notre Dame is hanging by a thread and the other teams have not been tourney strong. If the best of the ACC is down it brings everyone down.

dukelifer
01-07-2018, 08:04 AM
The bad defense has persisted too long now to be viewed as an effort problem. It’s not related to the shortcomings of a particular group of kids, because it’s persisted through massive turnover. It’s not about youth - there are tons of young players and relatively young teams in NCAA MBB who play better defense than we do.

It’s a system or coaching issue. Honestly, it has to be. Some of our past teams had the excuse of being small-ish, of lacking rim protectors, of lacking lock-down PGs - this team has none of those problems. We have insane athleticism, size and length at just about every position on the floor. There’s no reason - none - why this team shouldn’t be a really good defensive team - or at minimum a team that can shut down a team that lost to UNC-Greensboro.

Generally I’m not in the “K needs to play more guys” camp - I think fatigue is overblown and have no problem with playing the starters as much as they can handle. But I will confess I am weary of the “we’re not deep” excuse too. The guys 6-11 on or bench would all be starting or playing rotation minutes for NCSU - we have WAY more quality depth than they do, we just choose not to use it. That’s a valid choice but it is a choice, not something imposed on the coaching staff.

Best thing about this game is that it was only one game and only counts once in the standings.

Duke did not play the team that lost to UNC Greensboro - they played a hungry team that just got crushed and saw Duke as a chance to remake their season. State is going to be wildly inconsistent but on any given night is capable of hanging with any team. They have the elements to be good. With Bolden hurt- both Duke bench bigs played. Neither did much. The only question is whether the two Freshman bench guys would have played well- AOC looked a bit shaken in his minute- or if Jack White is ready to contribute. Who did you expect to play more in a game that was two possessions in separation?

Matches
01-07-2018, 08:16 AM
Duke did not play the team that lost to UNC Greensboro - they played a hungry team that just got crushed and saw Duke as a chance to remake their season. State is going to be wildly inconsistent but on any given night is capable of hanging with any team. They have the elements to be good. With Bolden hurt- both Duke bench bigs played. Neither did much. The only question is whether the two Freshman bench guys would have played well- AOC looked a bit shaken in his minute- or if Jack White is ready to contribute. Who did you expect to play more in a game that was two possessions in separation?

No one. Don’t get me wrong - I don’t think there’s a lineup change K could have made last night that would have changed the outcome. The bench guys who did play last night generally played poorly. (I guess Vrank was ok in his limited stint.) Even if Bolden had been healthy I doubt that would have mattered much.

I just tire of hearing “we’re not deep”. We are *extremely* talent-deep, as much so as any team in the country. K simply does not prioritize using that depth in games. Again, a valid choice, one that has served him quite well, and one with which I do not necessarily disagree - but a poor excuse.

TampaDuke
01-07-2018, 08:26 AM
Having two dominant rebounders is fun, but there probably are consequences if those two guys are mentally focused on rebound first. The NBA has only 10 players in double figure rebounds, and New Orleans is the only team with two of those--they are the 3rd worst defensive team in points allowed. This isn't necessarily cause-effect, but just an association with quite a few confounders (e.g., minutes played). Basketball strategy is all about tradeoffs, and it feels to me that a team is trading off something to have two dominant rebounders. If you get in a game where your individual decisions to get in position for the rebound don't lead to dominant team rebounding, then you lose. It all seems fixable, with many more games and practices ahead.

Speaking of tradeoffs, is it just me or does it seem that Grayson's lack of reckless aggression has made him much less effective this season. I recall that early on this year he said something to the effect that he's been working on being more "in control" on his drives to avoid injury. That sounded like a good idea at the time, but I wonder if it's had an unintended consequence on his game. Or maybe it's just an adjustment to playing with two interior guys and another driver on the team?

OldPhiKap
01-07-2018, 08:29 AM
No one. Don’t get me wrong - I don’t think there’s a lineup change K could have made last night that would have changed the outcome. The bench guys who did play last night generally played poorly. (I guess Vrank was ok in his limited stint.) Even if Bolden had been healthy I doubt that would have mattered much.

I just tire of hearing “we’re not deep”. We are *extremely* talent-deep, as much so as any team in the country. K simply does not prioritize using that depth in games. Again, a valid choice, one that has served him quite well, and one with which I do not necessarily disagree - but a poor excuse.

Six players played 15 or more minutes, and Bolden was unavailable.

The rest played 1-4 minutes:

Goldwire 1
AOC 2
Vrank 4
Robinson 1
White 1

Not sure that playing any of them more mi utes was either justified or would change the result.

There is no substitute for Grayson. If he doesn’t show up, we lose. I think it is about that simple. No other experienced leader, no other reliable outside threat. That is where we lack depth — upperclass experience and leadership.

kshepinthehouse
01-07-2018, 08:31 AM
Speaking of tradeoffs, is it just me or does it seem that Grayson's lack of reckless aggression has made him much less effective this season. I recall that early on this year he said something to the effect that he's been working on being more "in control" on his drives to avoid injury. That sounded like a good idea at the time, but I wonder if it's had an unintended consequence on his game. Or maybe it's just an adjustment to playing with two interior guys and another driver on the team?

Something has zapped his athleticism as I mentioned in an earlier post. Hopefully he can recover and be the All American candidate we thought he would be. If we can get him going our offense will be one for the ages.

weezie
01-07-2018, 08:31 AM
...I just tire of hearing “we’re not deep”. We are *extremely* talent-deep, as much so as any team in the country. K simply does not prioritize using that depth in games. Again, a valid choice, one that has served him quite well, and one with which I do not necessarily disagree - but a poor excuse.

Here it is in a nutshell. Very good observations.

Anybody know if K force marched them into the bus without showers and right back into Cameron for drills?

dukelifer
01-07-2018, 08:33 AM
Speaking of tradeoffs, is it just me or does it seem that Grayson's lack of reckless aggression has made him much less effective this season. I recall that early on this year he said something to the effect that he's been working on being more "in control" on his drives to avoid injury. That sounded like a good idea at the time, but I wonder if it's had an unintended consequence on his game. Or maybe it's just an adjustment to playing with two interior guys and another driver on the team?

His role at the next level is to be a shooter. But I would not be surprised if Allen needs those explosive plays to get himself going. Shooting can go South quickly and if he is not hitting and not driving- he is limited. Allen also needs to get to the line. I suspect some adjustments will be made. The success of the team hinges on Allen and Duval.

TampaDuke
01-07-2018, 08:37 AM
No one. Don’t get me wrong - I don’t think there’s a lineup change K could have made last night that would have changed the outcome. The bench guys who did play last night generally played poorly. (I guess Vrank was ok in his limited stint.) Even if Bolden had been healthy I doubt that would have mattered much.

I just tire of hearing “we’re not deep”. We are *extremely* talent-deep, as much so as any team in the country. K simply does not prioritize using that depth in games. Again, a valid choice, one that has served him quite well, and one with which I do not necessarily disagree - but a poor excuse.

I don't have anything specific to back this up, but the sense I got Sat. night was that K didn't play the bench because he wanted the starters to get as much time against that offensive scheme as possible, particularly in a hostile environment. Makes me wonder if he also doesn't mind (not the right word probably) the loss too much, for the teaching opportunities it will provide the young guys.

The silver lining, IMO, is that these issues are being exposed now, by teams we think we should easily beat. I'd rather know these issues now when a loss means we can work on fixing the issues, than in March when a loss means the season is over. Better yet, I'd rather the freshman learn these issues now. As poorly as we've played defense, these guys likely needed to lose this game. If they'd pulled it out late, I'm not sure a group of competitors (freshmen at that) would accept the message that they need to improve dramatically quite so easily.

kshepinthehouse
01-07-2018, 08:39 AM
His role at the next level is to be a shooter. But I would not be surprised if Allen needs those explosive plays to get himself going. Shooting can go South quickly and if he is not hitting and not driving- he is limited. Allen also needs to get to the line. I suspect some adjustments will be made. The success of the team hinges on Allen and Duval.

Unfortunate his shooting has gone downhill. Earlier in the season I felt like everything he put up was going in. At what point he was shooting around 50% from 3. Obviously I didn’t expect that to continue but his percentage seems to have drastically gone downhill and some of his shots aren’t even close.

lotusland
01-07-2018, 08:40 AM
We had another example of Duke's tendency to focus it's offense on the inside. It appears that less than 20% of our scoring has been coming from the perimeter including 3's and longer 2's. Part of that results from Bagley's incredible ability to score on the inside but also a lot has to do with our inability to get open and shoot a decent percentage from 3. Neither Grayson nor Gary have been able to have enough accuracy to keep the defense honest.

So we have a young point guard in Trevon and also others trying to force the ball inside. He did a nice job of scoring 18 points but unfortunately the middle is clogged up and he wound up turning the ball over too often when trying to get iside. Trevon also has a tendency to try to make spectacular passes such as full court or no look and they also result in TO's. Going forward we need to value the ball more and reduce the TO's. Part of that involves our perimeter shooters carrying more of the scoring and relieving the pressure inside. Easier said than done. Grayson had 8 points in nearly 40 minutes and shot 25% from 3. I don't expect Trevon to suddenly develop into a perimeter shooter and Gary still hasn't shown special ability in that way so perhaps O'Connell but he seems to have the message to go inside at all costs.

While others seem to want to focus most of the attention on our defense, and it was bad last night, we also need to deal with the offense or we will face frequent losses in the ACC.
This team needs to run offense through the bigs. They’re not a good shooting team and it’s not because they don’t shoot enough. Duval was known to be a poor perimeter shooter and Trent was known to be a streaky scorer with average 3 point shooting. Duke’s opportunity to be a good 3 point team this year left with Luke and Frank. Grayson was very well guarded by State. Maybe he didn’t work hard enough to get open but I don’t really think our offense would improve by running him off multiple screens for a shot. Carter and Bagley are studs. We need to play through them and get in transition as much as possible. Our best opportunity to shoot open 3s will be getting the ball inside and forcing help from the defense. I’d like to have Alex a few more minutes but I don’t think it would have made the difference in the outcome. Duval just bailed Duke out at home against FSU so it’s not fair to fault him for being aggressive. He’s got to get more consistent and the team has to play much better defense. We will have better shooting games but this team is not going to win from outside.

dudog84
01-07-2018, 08:42 AM
You could have made a lot of money off of me if you had bet me that Duke would be 1-2 in conference. Doubled your money if you said the 2 losses would be to BC and State.

sagegrouse
01-07-2018, 08:45 AM
His role at the next level is to be a shooter. But I would not be surprised if Allen needs those explosive plays to get himself going. Shooting can go South quickly and if he is not hitting and not driving- he is limited. Allen also needs to get to the line. I suspect some adjustments will be made. The success of the team hinges on Allen and Duval.

Allen saw the ball very few times. He either has to demand it or Trevon has to make Grayson a priority. Heck Duval might as well pass to
Grayson -- when he didn't he had eight turnovers and only five assists, despite passing the ball to Bagley, a human dunk machine.

Dukehky
01-07-2018, 08:55 AM
We had another example of Duke's tendency to focus it's offense on the inside. It appears that less than 20% of our scoring has been coming from the perimeter including 3's and longer 2's. Part of that results from Bagley's incredible ability to score on the inside but also a lot has to do with our inability to get open and shoot a decent percentage from 3. Neither Grayson nor Gary have been able to have enough accuracy to keep the defense honest.

So we have a young point guard in Trevon and also others trying to force the ball inside. He did a nice job of scoring 18 points but unfortunately the middle is clogged up and he wound up turning the ball over too often when trying to get iside. Trevon also has a tendency to try to make spectacular passes such as full court or no look and they also result in TO's. Going forward we need to value the ball more and reduce the TO's. Part of that involves our perimeter shooters carrying more of the scoring and relieving the pressure inside. Easier said than done. Grayson had 8 points in nearly 40 minutes and shot 25% from 3. I don't expect Trevon to suddenly develop into a perimeter shooter and Gary still hasn't shown special ability in that way so perhaps O'Connell but he seems to have the message to go inside at all costs.

While others seem to want to focus most of the attention on our defense, and it was bad last night, we also need to deal with the offense or we will face frequent losses in the ACC.

We should focus our offense on the inside even more, Marvin Bagley's usage rate should double. He should be getting the Trae Young treatment. Gary Trent is in a year long shooting slump, Grayson is... idk what Grayson is, I don't hope he's hurt, but I hope he was hurt last night because he looked bad, and Duval can't shoot. Just let Bagley score every time.

Dukehky
01-07-2018, 09:03 AM
At this point, I see this group as OAD gone wild. Tons of talent. Not enough team. The mix is out of whack.

This is a terrible post.

Say what you will about Gary Trent, that guy was the only leader on the court last night, even though he was playing like doo doo. Bagley played his butt off for all what, 57 minutes that he played last night. Grayson is not a selfish player, in fact, I'd say last night that he was too unselfish. Duval's problems are what Duval's problems have always been. He's not a good decision maker and he can't shoot.

Wendell, did not have good body language all game, and was not good.

But you can't just blame player's deficiencies on being OAD, this post sound like some old man yelling about how tough everything was "back in the day." Everyone other than Bagley had a bad day yesterday, including the coaching staff. We got killed. I have thought this group played more together than either of the last two years, even if part of that togetherness is terrible defense, they're working at it, and for the most part the attitudes are pretty good.


Also, too many OADs? We have 2 first round players on the team right now. Bagley and Carter. Duval is clinging to a first round position, Gary Trent, I don't think is going to be an NBA player at all based on speed and athleticism issues, not to mention he's been not good at the thing he's supposed to be good at. Maybe they have a "OAD" attitude, but what the hell does that even mean? You think because they want to go pro they don't care about winning. Justise was 1 and done and he sure as all get out cared about winning, so did Tyus and Jah. Nobody cared more about winning than Austin Rivers.

In conclusion, I did not like the quoted post.

YmoBeThere
01-07-2018, 09:13 AM
You could have made a lot of money off of me if you had bet me that Duke would be 1-2 in conference. Doubled your money if you said the 2 losses would be to BC and State.

I wouldn't have made the bet, but I do recall seeing a 12.5 pt line on last night's game and thinking there is no way we cover. Of course, it was even worse that that...

Furniture
01-07-2018, 09:21 AM
Speaking of tradeoffs, is it just me or does it seem that Grayson's lack of reckless aggression has made him much less effective this season. I recall that early on this year he said something to the effect that he's been working on being more "in control" on his drives to avoid injury. That sounded like a good idea at the time, but I wonder if it's had an unintended consequence on his game. Or maybe it's just an adjustment to playing with two interior guys and another driver on the team?

Is Grayson too focused on being the leader on the team if you know what I mean?

Billy Dat
01-07-2018, 09:30 AM
Is Grayson too focused on being the leader on the team if you know what I mean?


Say what you will about Gary Trent, that guy was the only leader on the court last night, even though he was playing like doo doo.

As far as last night, I have to agree with Dukehky. When the chips were down, it was Gary that I saw repeatedly verbally trying to rally everyone to get stops, etc. Of course, what one sees on TV is limited.

Devilwin
01-07-2018, 09:39 AM
I have never been a fan of the one and done scenario. We caught lightning in a bottle in 2015 I believe. That being said, you surely cannot sit Bagley and Carter, et al, they are just too good. I, like many of us here, expected Duke, because of this enormous talent, to go on a rampage through our schedule. That's our own fault. We expected too much from 18 year old kids. Talent wise, we have the best in the nation. But getting them to gel quickly into a cohesive unit (especially on defense) is difficult. How can we as fans not be frustrated, after reading the press clippings? We jumped for joy as we saw each player in turn signed up to come here. When the team was set, we sat licking our chops at the upcoming season, like a tiger anticipating the deer approaching unawares.
And maybe Grayson is trying to do too much, and its affected his entire game. He's much better than he's been playing of late. We need his leadership as much as his three point shot.
The good thing is, as I see it, these young players can be molded into a devastating team, and K is just the guy who can do it. Or if they don't listen to him, and apply his words to practical use, this thing can really get bad in a hurry. Teams should not ever find it so easy to score on us inside with Bagley and Carter inside. And we need to do something about these teams driving straight to the hoop unopposed.
This can be fixed. It's time for the fixing to commence.

Duke95
01-07-2018, 10:04 AM
Start the bench.
It's time for a wake up call.

LOL. K doesn't even PLAY the bench. You want to bench Bagley and Carter? Please.

Rich
01-07-2018, 10:04 AM
I have never been a fan of the one and done scenario. We caught lightning in a bottle in 2015 I believe. That being said, you surely cannot sit Bagley and Carter, et al, they are just too good. I, like many of us here, expected Duke, because of this enormous talent, to go on a rampage through our schedule. That's our own fault. We expected too much from 18 year old kids. Talent wise, we have the best in the nation. But getting them to gel quickly into a cohesive unit (especially on defense) is difficult. How can we as fans not be frustrated, after reading the press clippings? We jumped for joy as we saw each player in turn signed up to come here. When the team was set, we sat licking our chops at the upcoming season, like a tiger anticipating the deer approaching unawares.
And maybe Grayson is trying to do too much, and its affected his entire game. He's much better than he's been playing of late. We need his leadership as much as his three point shot.
The good thing is, as I see it, these young players can be molded into a devastating team, and K is just the guy who can do it. Or if they don't listen to him, and apply his words to practical use, this thing can really get bad in a hurry. Teams should not ever find it so easy to score on us inside with Bagley and Carter inside. And we need to do something about these teams driving straight to the hoop unopposed.
This can be fixed. It's time for the fixing to commence.

I like the positive thinking, but buckle up, I think we now all realize that it’s going to be a bumpy ride and how it ends is anyone’s guess.

Ima Facultiwyfe
01-07-2018, 10:21 AM
I have never been a fan of the one and done scenario. We caught lightning in a bottle in 2015 I believe. That being said, you surely cannot sit Bagley and Carter, et al, they are just too good. I, like many of us here, expected Duke, because of this enormous talent, to go on a rampage through our schedule. That's our own fault. We expected too much from 18 year old kids. Talent wise, we have the best in the nation. But getting them to gel quickly into a cohesive unit (especially on defense) is difficult. How can we as fans not be frustrated, after reading the press clippings? We jumped for joy as we saw each player in turn signed up to come here. When the team was set, we sat licking our chops at the upcoming season, like a tiger anticipating the deer approaching unawares.
And maybe Grayson is trying to do too much, and its affected his entire game. He's much better than he's been playing of late. We need his leadership as much as his three point shot.
The good thing is, as I see it, these young players can be molded into a devastating team, and K is just the guy who can do it. Or if they don't listen to him, and apply his words to practical use, this thing can really get bad in a hurry. Teams should not ever find it so easy to score on us inside with Bagley and Carter inside. And we need to do something about these teams driving straight to the hoop unopposed.
This can be fixed. It's time for the fixing to commence.

'zackly.
Love, Ima

Saratoga2
01-07-2018, 10:42 AM
Unfortunate his shooting has gone downhill. Earlier in the season I felt like everything he put up was going in. At what point he was shooting around 50% from 3. Obviously I didn’t expect that to continue but his percentage seems to have drastically gone downhill and some of his shots aren’t even close.

If Grayson's not scoring and not shooting well, is his defense good enough to warrant him getting 40 minutes a game? I don't know the answer to that, but think the only option on the team is O'Connell and he really looked lost when he came in. If O'Connell comes in and is assertive, he might give this team a lift. He has size, athletic ability, seems to see the floor and has good shooting form. The problem is that he seems to feel the need to defer and perhaps that is a common freshman issue.

The Gordog
01-07-2018, 10:42 AM
Allen has to play like a senior when you have a team full of Freshman. Not sure what happened tonight- maybe hurt- maybe sick- maybe an off night. This is a team of Freshman who one day may be consistent players- but right now they do not play well together. The D is exceptionally bad right now and if it does not get better in a hurry- the team will struggle to win in this league. Maybe playing more games a week will help- we shall see. Right now- Duke is not a very good team. But no question that Bagley is one incredible talent. Other than that- the team is playing a lot like you might expect Freshman to play in January. Again Allen needs to take over and tonight he was absent and hence the loss.

To my eye Grayson was a relative positive last night.
1. The 2 best passes of the night were Grayson hitting Duvall and later Trent perfectly in stride that led to easy buckets.
2. Duvall never got him the ball coming off screens.
3. On offence they had him setting up on the opposite side of the floor from MBIII all night. In prior games I thought the Allen-Bagley 2 man game was very effective.
4. He got on the floor for loose balls and was the only one on the team that actually won any 50/50 balls.

Furniture
01-07-2018, 10:50 AM
If Grayson's not scoring and not shooting well, is his defense good enough to warrant him getting 40 minutes a game? I don't know the answer to that, but think the only option on the team is O'Connell and he really looked lost when he came in. If O'Connell comes in and is assertive, he might give this team a lift. He has size, athletic ability, seems to see the floor and has good shooting form. The problem is that he seems to feel the need to defer and perhaps that is a common freshman issue.

O’Connell did make a couple of bad plays so I understand why he got pulled. I just don’t understand why he wasn’t given time to calm down then given some encouragement and sent on again. Doesn’t make sense. If he makes a couple of buckets as he normally seems to do in some limited minutes maybe Duke wins the game.

Hauerwas
01-07-2018, 10:56 AM
So maybe we should consider a team building strategy that doesn't involve having so many Freshmen in the lineup every year.

Since going all in on the one and done strategy, Duke is 9-5 in the NCAA tournament since 2012 and have ZERO ACC regular season championships. Plus, the last two years we've had a total of 14 ACC losses, and we're starting this year 1-2 in the league with the easiest games front-loaded. Meaning, this team is headed toward another 6-7 loss ACC regular season, which would be one of the worst three year stretches since the 80's. All while Duke has a cupboard full of wonderful lottery picks just waiting for their name to be called.

In the exact same period, North Carolina has gone 18-5 in the NCAA tournament with two Final Four appearances, and has won 3 Regular season ACC championships. If anyone is foolish enough to believe K's one and done strategy has been successful, then I have some fake news for you. 2015 appears to be an outlier, lightening in a bottle.

Even the language and brand of the program has changed. Last night, the Duke basketball twitter feed was raving about Bagley getting 30 and 10. Wow, who really freaking cares because we lost. But, when you build your program around selling lottery spots instead of championships, that kinda language and posture bleeds into everything. We've become Kentucky, and a not very good version of Kentucky. K has chased Calipari's way of doing things and it's not working.

How this can even be debatable at this point in the game is beyond me.

Peruser
01-07-2018, 11:00 AM
Anyone at the game have a take on K's demeanor? Seeing it on TV, he seemed overly stoic. Capel seemed to be the only one jumping up to yell at the players. My first thought was he was not feeling well.

dudog84
01-07-2018, 11:10 AM
Since going all in on the one and done strategy, Duke is 9-5 in the NCAA tournament since 2012 and have ZERO ACC regular season championships. Plus, the last two years we've had a total of 14 ACC losses, and we're starting this year 1-2 in the league with the easiest games front-loaded. Meaning, this team is headed toward another 6-7 loss ACC regular season, which would be one of the worst three year stretches since the 80's. All while Duke has a cupboard full of wonderful lottery picks just waiting for their name to be called.

In the exact same period, North Carolina has gone 18-5 in the NCAA tournament with two Final Four appearances, and has won 3 Regular season ACC championships. If anyone is foolish enough to believe K's one and done strategy has been successful, then I have some fake news for you. 2015 appears to be an outlier, lightening in a bottle.

Even the language and brand of the program has changed. Last night, the Duke basketball twitter feed was raving about Bagley getting 30 and 10. Wow, who really freaking cares because we lost. But, when you build your program around selling lottery spots instead of championships, that kinda language and posture bleeds into everything. We've become Kentucky, and a not very good version of Kentucky. K has chased Calipari's way of doing things and it's not working.

How this can even be debatable at this point in the game is beyond me.

So take away 2015 and we're 3-5? Yikes!

I know I've been disappointed but didn't think it was that bad.

CDu
01-07-2018, 11:15 AM
So take away 2015 and we're 3-5? Yikes!

I know I've been disappointed but didn't think it was that bad.

It isn’t that bad. At least not quite.

2012: 0-1
2013: 3-1
2014: 0-1
2015: 6-0
2016: 2-1
2017: 1-1

We are 12-5 from 2012-2017. We are 6-5 if for some reason you exclude 2015.

Stray Gator
01-07-2018, 11:17 AM
Since going all in on the one and done strategy, Duke is 9-5 in the NCAA tournament since 2012 and have ZERO ACC regular season championships. . . .

According to the media guide, Duke's record in the NCAA Tournament is actually 12-4 during the period 2013-2017, or 12-5 if you include 2012. What is your source?

kshepinthehouse
01-07-2018, 11:19 AM
If Grayson's not scoring and not shooting well, is his defense good enough to warrant him getting 40 minutes a game? I don't know the answer to that, but think the only option on the team is O'Connell and he really looked lost when he came in. If O'Connell comes in and is assertive, he might give this team a lift. He has size, athletic ability, seems to see the floor and has good shooting form. The problem is that he seems to feel the need to defer and perhaps that is a common freshman issue.

Kind of weird that K went away from O’Connell so early. One of his last press conferences he specifically mentioned the need to let Alex play more. Then gave him a quick hook last night.

I trust Alex and wish K would have given him another chance. He has definitely been a bright spot on this team and I think he is crucial to our success moving forward.

Furniture
01-07-2018, 11:22 AM
Blue Devil Nation
@BlueDevilNation
(https://mobile.twitter.com/BlueDevilNation)Arizona has 4 losses, UNC 3, Kentucky 3. Kansas 3. Duke has 2. It is not the end of the world yet. No other team in the country has a win over #1 Michigan State as well. So, come on in off the ledge. Last nights loss was majorly disappointing but the season is not over yet.

kshepinthehouse
01-07-2018, 11:25 AM
Blue Devil Nation
@BlueDevilNation
(https://mobile.twitter.com/BlueDevilNation)Arizona has 4 losses, UNC 3, Kentucky 3. Kansas 3. Duke has 2. It is not the end of the world yet. No other team in the country has a win over #1 Michigan State as well. So, come on in off the ledge. Last nights loss was majorly disappointing but the season is not over yet.

Unfortunately our win against Michigan State was without Bagley and when Grayson was Grayson. Who knows what would happen if we played them again.

Maybe players are jealous of the spotlight and the attention Bagley is getting?

CDu
01-07-2018, 11:30 AM
Unfortunately our win against Michigan State was without Bagley and when Grayson was Grayson. Who knows what would happen if we played them again.

Maybe players are jealous of the spotlight and the attention Bagley is getting?

Yeah, I am going to say with great confidence that this is not the problem.

Natty_B
01-07-2018, 11:30 AM
According to the media guide, Duke's record in the NCAA Tournament is actually 12-4 during the period 2013-2017, or 12-5 if you include 2012. What is your source?

You don’t include 2013 as they weren’t OAD.

kshepinthehouse
01-07-2018, 11:34 AM
[/b]

Yeah, I am going to say with great confidence that this is not the problem.

Grayson has seemed to try to take the big shots in the BC game and this last game. Both of them were drives down the middle and times I thought we could have had a better shot. I don’t know if that’s the senior coming out in him or his desire to be the hero in the end.

I will say he has definitely made a concerted effort, especially in the second half of last night’s game to get Bagley the ball.

I also wonder how Bagley’s success affects Carter. Carter seems to be up and down a little with his effort and body language.

Purely conjecture on my part but I think it’s definitely worth thinking about. Last year Kennard mentioned about players being selfish and I wonder if we are having the same issue this year.

Wander
01-07-2018, 11:35 AM
It's always helpful to look at what other teams are doing for context. Yesterday alone, three other top 15 teams lost to an unranked opponent. Even with a crappy start to ACC play, there's no one out there who looks that much better than us. And even if the game were to happen tomorrow, I'd give Duke a 50% chance of beating Michigan State or Villanova (though we'd probably have to score 90+ to do it...).

None of that means our defense doesn't massively suck right now, but there's time.

CDu
01-07-2018, 11:37 AM
You don’t include 2013 as they weren’t OAD.

Then they aren’t 9-5. Youcan’t include the loss (a loss to the national champ, by the way) if you don’t include the wins.

elvis14
01-07-2018, 11:39 AM
Blue Devil Nation
@BlueDevilNation
(https://mobile.twitter.com/BlueDevilNation)Arizona has 4 losses, UNC 3, Kentucky 3. Kansas 3. Duke has 2. It is not the end of the world yet. No other team in the country has a win over #1 Michigan State as well. So, come on in off the ledge. Last nights loss was majorly disappointing but the season is not over yet.

With the talent on this team the goal was championships. Trying to isolate last night's loss and the loss against BC and act like everything is fine (or that everything is moving in the right direction) is just silly. It's really NOT time to "come in off the ledge". The season is not over but the embarrassing losses and the way we had to have heroic efforts to overcome leads given to mediocre teams makes the MSU game look like an outlier not an indication of how good we are. Heck Grayson carried us in the MSU game....last night he played like a lost freshman.

kshepinthehouse
01-07-2018, 11:43 AM
With the talent on this team the goal was championships. Trying to isolate last night's loss and the loss against BC and act like everything is fine (or that everything is moving in the right direction) is just silly. It's really NOT time to "come in off the ledge". The season is not over but the embarrassing losses and the way we had to have heroic efforts to overcome leads given to mediocre teams makes the MSU game look like an outlier not an indication of how good we are. Heck Grayson carried us in the MSU game...last night he played like a lost freshman.

Yea we could easily have 6 losses right now.

CDu
01-07-2018, 11:43 AM
Grayson has seemed to try to take the big shots in the BC game and this last game. Both of them were drives down the middle and times I thought we could have had a better shot. I don’t know if that’s the senior coming out in him or his desire to be the hero in the end.

I will say he has definitely made a concerted effort, especially in the second half of last night’s game to get Bagley the ball.

I also wonder how Bagley’s success affects Carter. Carter seems to be up and down a little with his effort and body language.

Purely conjecture on my part but I think it’s definitely worth thinking about. Last year Kennard mentioned about players being selfish and I wonder if we are having the same issue this year.

I don’t see how up-and-down play is cause for conjecture that the team is jealous of Bagley. That seems like an excessive leap based on flimsy evidence.

I think the more likely issue is that we are a young and inexperienced team that hasn’t figured out how to play defense together yet. Basically we are playing with one guy who has any significant experience, and that one guy hasn’t learned how to be a leader yet.

This is probably the least experienced Duke team ever. I think that is a much more likely culprit than jealousy.

And I don’t think that is the fault of the freshmen. I think that is a coaching issue. It appears they still haven’t figured things out. Either they are doing a consistently bad job of identifying capable defenders in recruiting, or they are doing a bad job of designing and teaching a defense that can work with young players.

Matches
01-07-2018, 11:44 AM
You don’t include 2013 as they weren’t OAD.

If that’s how we’re doing the math, then we also have to exclude UNC’s 2017 team, since it featured a OAD player.

Look, last night was hugely frustrating to watch - maybe the most pissed off I’ve been since.. well.. the State game last year. But not every game, or even every season, is a referendum on OAD recruiting. UNC got their tails kicked yesterday too, FWIW, and lost at home to Wofford a few weeks ago.

Fact is our upperclassmen don’t play defense any better than the freshmen do. And our senior leader was MIA on both ends of the floor last night. How that has anything to do with OAD is frankly beyond me.

CoachJ10
01-07-2018, 11:51 AM
Krzyzewski on Duke radio: "We have not been able to convince our players that we're going to get everybody's amazing shot. ... We did not have any poise at all tonight. I don't have the answer."

If there is any part of the OAD era that has not been overanalyzed on the DBR, I think that this sentiment is an intriguing one.

The spotlight has always been on Duke in the last 2 + decades...but the OAD era has produced an even more intense scrutiny and expectation level. It affects the Duke players...and also our opponents.

Athletes love to try and measure themselves against the "best". Every one of our opponents is now taking that to heart.

I was at the Bootsy game. We are now in a time period where we can expect a Bootsy every game as every team has nothing to lose when they play us.

CDu
01-07-2018, 11:56 AM
If there is any part of the OAD era that has not been overanalyzed on the DBR, I think that this sentiment is an intriguing one.

The spotlight has always been on Duke in the last 2 + decades...but the OAD era has produced an even more intense scrutiny and expectation level. It affects the Duke players...and also our opponents.

Athletes love to try and measure themselves against the "best". Every one of our opponents is now taking that to heart.

I was at the Bootsy game. We are now in a time period where we can expect a Bootsy every game as every team has nothing to lose when they play us.

At least we won the Bootsy game.

AtlDuke72
01-07-2018, 12:04 PM
It's January 7. The team will get over this loss. Y'all should follow accordingly. Next play.

Best post of all of the. State has talent - they also beat Arizona. The shots they made in the last 3 minutes were great shots that were defended. Duke starts 4 freshman and it takes time. It is not a coaching problem. Coach K believes in playing 6-7 players which will help them develop as a unit. Blaming Duval , who scored 18 points on 8-14 shooting- is just not fair. The sense of entitlement on this board reads like something from IC.

kshepinthehouse
01-07-2018, 12:08 PM
Best post of all of the. State has talent - they also beat Arizona. The shots they made in the last 3 minutes were great shots that were defended. Duke starts 4 freshman and it takes time. It is not a coaching problem. Coach K believes in playing 6-7 players which will help them develop as a unit. Blaming Duval , who scored 18 points on 8-14 shooting- is just not fair. The sense of entitlement on this board reads like something from IC.

To be fair everyone is beating Arizona 😂

WVDUKEFAN
01-07-2018, 12:11 PM
It's not all about lack of defense. Allen needs involved. He's a scorer. You can't give him the ball 10 times a game and then turn around and think he's going to knock down a 3 every time we need one.

dalmatians98
01-07-2018, 12:17 PM
Personally, I blame this one on O'Connell's new haircut.

dukelifer
01-07-2018, 12:32 PM
Yea we could easily have 6 losses right now.

Or easily two more wins. I agree with CDu that the issue here is coaching/teaching. This staff has never dealt with such an influx of Freshman and the staff either assumed the kids would pick up the defense quicker or they are not working on helping these guys learn what they need to know. Just because you think you are teaching (ie saying the words)- does not mean the students are grasping it. The evidence for learning is in the execution. The team failed the test yesterday. Looking at film is not enough. They have to run through the steps- practice the movements and work on the communication. That takes time - has to be done at game speed against good players- and so far the learning has been very slow. It may not come until March if at all. If it does not come, Duke will give up a ton of points- and will just need to score more which means no forced passes and keeping the game simple- feed the post and when available kick out to open shooters. Yesterday the mistakes on O and absent shooting from Allen could not make up for the poor D- which at this point is to be expected.

AtlDuke72
01-07-2018, 12:42 PM
Personally, I blame this one on O'Connell's new haircut.

Free throw defense was also very poor.

DUKIE V(A)
01-07-2018, 12:46 PM
I believe in this team and this coaching staff, but last night's game was about desire and decision-making and State dominated us in both. We will always get everyone's best shot. Better be mentally prepared for it.

SkyBrickey
01-07-2018, 12:46 PM
Here's what gives me hope.

We were in a very similar place with the 2015 team after back-to-back losses on January 11 and 13. 87-75 at NC State. 90-74 at home to Miami.

The coaching staff made some adjustments and convinced that group to play team defense. We closed out the regular season on a 14-1 run with our lone defeat at ND.

This team is even younger than the 2015 team with 4 freshman starters so it's likely to take longer to figure out. But if anything, this team is more athletic and has more defensive potential, just not the solid defensive experience and presence of Cook+Jones. It's about effort, mental toughness and scheme/technique/rotations.

I'll hold out hope we've got a chance to be a much, much better defensive squad by March...

DukieInBrasil
01-07-2018, 12:56 PM
Watched the game on replay. Well, that was some of the worst defense i've ever seen Duke play. The offense was fine at times, but ineffective when settling for jumpers.
So the team is pretty good, sometimes excellent on offense, and just plain bad at defense. I think it's safe to say that this is just not a good team right now. They have the potential to be very good, even championship good, but they are nowhere near that right now.
Duke just allowed a team that has looked anemic on offense lately to put up 96 points. At no point did it seem like they had any idea of how to stop State.
The worst thing to me, and probably what decided the outcome of this game more than any other, was how bad our supposedly superior rebounding was. This was epitomized by a play mid-late in the 2nd half when Yurtseven grabbed an Oboard right in between both Carter and Bagley. So many times when our defense did a pretty good job and forced a miss from State, only to allow Yurtseven, Abu or Freeman to grab the Oboard for a follow dunk. Many other putrid aspects to the defense as well, but i don't want to get my blood pressure up.
The bright side was Trevon for the first 5-10 minutes of the game, when he was consistently and effectively exploiting his mismatch with Beverley. State somehow fixed that and then Duval just couldn't stay under control and coughed up 8 turnovers.
Very frustrating game to watch.

Furniture
01-07-2018, 12:58 PM
Personally, I blame this one on O'Connell's new haircut.

Totally unacceptable on his part.

curtis325
01-07-2018, 01:02 PM
Totally unacceptable on his part.

Just do it.

Kedsy
01-07-2018, 01:18 PM
We are a great offensive rebounding team but not a good defensive rebounding team.

This isn't really true. If it lasts all season, our season-long defensive rebounding percentage (71.8%) would be the best in Duke history. We were a subpar defensive rebounding team against State (58.8%), but at least rebounding-wise, that was just one game.

hsheffield
01-07-2018, 01:25 PM
His role at the next level is to be a shooter. But I would not be surprised if Allen needs those explosive plays to get himself going. Shooting can go South quickly and if he is not hitting and not driving- he is limited. Allen also needs to get to the line. I suspect some adjustments will be made. The success of the team hinges on Allen and Duval.

agreed: they especially depend on GA for mojo. he didn't seem to be pushing himself or the other guys as he has been at other times this season. the youngins look a little lost without him.

I'm baffled by his seeming lack of fire last night.

Does anyone have any ideas as to what might be going on???

kmspeaks
01-07-2018, 01:33 PM
Since going all in on the one and done strategy, Duke is 9-5 in the NCAA tournament since 2012 and have ZERO ACC regular season championships. Plus, the last two years we've had a total of 14 ACC losses, and we're starting this year 1-2 in the league with the easiest games front-loaded. Meaning, this team is headed toward another 6-7 loss ACC regular season, which would be one of the worst three year stretches since the 80's. All while Duke has a cupboard full of wonderful lottery picks just waiting for their name to be called.

In the exact same period, North Carolina has gone 18-5 in the NCAA tournament with two Final Four appearances, and has won 3 Regular season ACC championships. If anyone is foolish enough to believe K's one and done strategy has been successful, then I have some fake news for you. 2015 appears to be an outlier, lightening in a bottle.

Even the language and brand of the program has changed. Last night, the Duke basketball twitter feed was raving about Bagley getting 30 and 10. Wow, who really freaking cares because we lost. But, when you build your program around selling lottery spots instead of championships, that kinda language and posture bleeds into everything. We've become Kentucky, and a not very good version of Kentucky. K has chased Calipari's way of doing things and it's not working.

How this can even be debatable at this point in the game is beyond me.

I'm sure this has all been picked apart at some point in the numerous times we've had this discussion but I'm on the couch for a week recovering from hip surgery so I've got the time to do it again. For the high school classes of 2010 - 2016:



Recruiting Ranking
Duke
North Carolina


1-10
8 - all 1 and done
Irving, Rivers, Parker, Okafor, Jones, Ingram, Giles, Tatum
3 - avg stay 2.67 years
Barnes, McAdoo, Jackson


11-30
11 - avg stay 2 years
Gbinije, Sulaimon, Jefferson, Ojeleye, Winslow, Allen, Thornton, Jeter, Kennard, Jackson, Bolden
8 - avg stay 3.13 years
Bullock, Marshall, Hairston, Paige, Hicks, Pinson, Berry, Bradley


31-50
5 - avg stay 4 years
Dawkins, Hairston, Cook, Jones, DeLaurier
2 - avg stay 4 years
Johnson, Woods


51-100
1 - stayed 4 years
Plumlee
4 - avg stay 3.5 years
Tokoto, Meeks, Williams, Robinson


101-200
1 - stayed 4 years
Thornton
3 - avg stay 4 years
Hubert, Britt, Maye


201+
3
Vrankovic, Robinson, White
3
White, Simmons, James



So Carolina's top 30 guys stay, on average, a year longer. Maybe there is a solid, repeatable reason he's able to get them to stay and that strategy is sustainable or maybe it's Roy that caught lightning in a bottle.

Natty_B
01-07-2018, 01:40 PM
Then they aren’t 9-5. Youcan’t include the loss (a loss to the national champ, by the way) if you don’t include the wins.

Right. I’m just showing where the poster got his numbers and it’s an important post even if it includes more narrative than factual truth. Quite simply even with the title Duke has not performed to the level of other blue chip programs this decade. Also losing in the exact same way again and again with OAD stars is frustrating last night was basically the South Carolina or Mercer game.

Now an old Bill Simmons line was you can’t complain for 5 years after a title - so we’re still well within that. But it’s fair to be very concerned when you lose to two mediocre ACC teams.

SirIronDuke
01-07-2018, 01:40 PM
With an ever growing sample size 2015 is looking more and more like a fluke.


I continue to believe 2015 was indeed a fluke and furthermore it sent exactly the wrong signals about the "benefits" of OAD.

The hit to team culture and chemistry of OAD is not worth it. And just because you can (recruit OAD) doesn't mean you should.

The one thing Duke always had going for it was that we did things the Right Way. OAD is not the right way.

More power to these kids that want to play for a year before the NBA. You just should not be doing that at Duke University.

Neals384
01-07-2018, 02:03 PM
We were building a solid lead early in the game and then coach K subbed O'Connell and DeLaurier into the game to presumably rest some of our starters. Between the two of them they were guilty of some misplays and our lead disappeared in a hurry. We never seemed to look solid again even with the starters back in. I am not surprised that Coach K stayed away from playing them big minutes although DeLauier got back in but often played an avid but out of control game. Had O'Connell not looked lost out there he might of been the shooting threat from 3 that we needed. Grayson certainly wasn't and neither was Gary.

No, State's 15-0 run was entirely against our starting lineup.

Old Dukie
01-07-2018, 02:05 PM
Well, that was hard to watch as we have so much talent on the floor but haven't yet learned enough defense to be force tough shots. It was a road game and it is largely a freshman team, but the defensive screen and roll defense was not good. We also had a lot of turnovers tonight, quite a few of which were unforced. No reason to believe we can expect a rapid improvement in our defense so we better hope the offense and rebounding will hold up. I haven't checked the numbers for tonight but I believe we were about even on rebounds. We also fouled and bailed out NCState when they were down on their shot clock. DeLaurier has guilty of that on several occasions. He plays so hard that he sometimes is out of control.

The offense tonight centered on Bagley and he delivered as much as we can expect from him. Neither Grayson or Gary have shot well from outside and Grayson's whole offensive game was largely missing. I don't know if the defense on him was that good or he just is off his game but we do need more from him. Also O'Connell looked lost when he came in the first half so we got nothing from him on offense.

Time for the team to take stock and try to learn from this defeat and the other poor defensive showings. Onward and hopefully upward from here.

Bench contributors need playing time to develop - and they're just not getting it! Coaching staff is to blame, not the players! Both Trent and Duval are seeing far too much playing time.....even as they miss shots and play horrible defense.

dukelifer
01-07-2018, 02:07 PM
Since going all in on the one and done strategy, Duke is 9-5 in the NCAA tournament since 2012 and have ZERO ACC regular season championships. Plus, the last two years we've had a total of 14 ACC losses, and we're starting this year 1-2 in the league with the easiest games front-loaded. Meaning, this team is headed toward another 6-7 loss ACC regular season, which would be one of the worst three year stretches since the 80's. All while Duke has a cupboard full of wonderful lottery picks just waiting for their name to be called.

In the exact same period, North Carolina has gone 18-5 in the NCAA tournament with two Final Four appearances, and has won 3 Regular season ACC championships. If anyone is foolish enough to believe K's one and done strategy has been successful, then I have some fake news for you. 2015 appears to be an outlier, lightening in a bottle.

Even the language and brand of the program has changed. Last night, the Duke basketball twitter feed was raving about Bagley getting 30 and 10. Wow, who really freaking cares because we lost. But, when you build your program around selling lottery spots instead of championships, that kinda language and posture bleeds into everything. We've become Kentucky, and a not very good version of Kentucky. K has chased Calipari's way of doing things and it's not working.

How this can even be debatable at this point in the game is beyond me.
I don’t understand what you think has changed exactly. Duke has consistently gone after and gotten commitments from top players- Ferry, Hill, Brand, Burgess, Williams etc were all top players in their classses. In the past, these guys did not go one and done. Now they do. Irving was recruited to a team of veterans. So was Rivers. Hood transfered and Jabari was one and done and the defense suffered. When Jah was recruited - no one expected Jones and Winslow to be one and done- but three left along with the loss of Rasheed and Duke had holes to fill. Duke lost a number of players to transfer. Duke is doing the same thing it has always done but now guys are leaving after a year or so. Duke could change its recruiting and go after second tier guys and K can try to get back to the old days- but it is his team. He likes coaching these guys even if some fans don’t like the product. I suspect in a few years when Coach K retires and the NBA rules change- Duke will be happy to get the best players they can get.

Hauerwas
01-07-2018, 02:09 PM
According to the media guide, Duke's record in the NCAA Tournament is actually 12-4 during the period 2013-2017, or 12-5 if you include 2012. What is your source?

My bad, I was never strong with numbers. 12-5 is better but still not convinced the one and done strategy fits the Duke way.

Also anyone feel like we need an assistant coach shake up? This staff seems weak to me. Once Wojo and Collins left our staff hadn’t been the same. If this was football you better believe someone is getting fired.

UVA can coach and play defense with far inferior talent. Defense is about will, heart and desire. Something this coaching staff has struggled to implement the last few years.

Old Dukie
01-07-2018, 02:10 PM
No, State's 15-0 run was entirely against our starting lineup.

Bench players need to be developed so much more - so they don't look lost or "out of control" out there. Blame the coaches for not getting this accomplished!

OZ
01-07-2018, 02:10 PM
I continue to believe 2015 was indeed a fluke and furthermore it sent exactly the wrong signals about the "benefits" of OAD.

The hit to team culture and chemistry of OAD is not worth it. And just because you can (recruit OAD) doesn't mean you should.

The one thing Duke always had going for it was that we did things the Right Way. OAD is not the right way.

More power to these kids that want to play for a year before the NBA. You just should not be doing that at Duke University.

Well, maybe not entirely. They did have a little more EXPERIENCED leadership on that team... Matt, Amile, Marshall and especially Quinn. There was also a pre-Duke relationship between T Jones and Okafor.

dukelifer
01-07-2018, 02:12 PM
Bench players need to be developed so much more - so they don't look lost or "out of control" out there. Blame the coaches for not getting this accomplished!

This was the first time AOC looked out of control. Javin is still not 100%. What Bench guys do you want to see developed.

Old Dukie
01-07-2018, 02:12 PM
My bad, I was never strong with numbers. 12-5 is better but still not convinced the one and done strategy fits the Duke way.

Also anyone feel like we need an assistant coach shake up? This staff seems weak to me. Once Wojo and Collins left our staff hadn’t been the same. If this was football you better believe someone is getting fired.

UVA can coach and play defense with far inferior talent. Defense is about will, heart and desire. Something this coaching staff has struggled to implement the last few years.

I agree 100% re an assistant coach shakeup....no "fire in the belly" sitting next to K.....and they're teaching these guys little!

Old Dukie
01-07-2018, 02:16 PM
This was the first time AOC looked out of control. Javin is still not 100%. What Bench guys do you want to see developed.

O'Connell and Goldwire for sure - they both have moxie and court savvy. Also, Vrankovic needs more time in place of Carter....he brings in spirit/intensity and would perhaps make Carter hungrier.

Natty_B
01-07-2018, 02:17 PM
On the bright side it’s more than a month till the first UNC game. Lotta season left.

dukelifer
01-07-2018, 02:20 PM
O'Connell and Goldwire for sure - they both have moxie and court savvy. Also, Vrankovic needs more time in place of Carter...he brings in spirit/intensity and would perhaps make Carter hungrier.

The only one that did not play yesterday was Goldwire. As for Carter- he has had a pretty good season so far. Almost averaging a double double. Not sure how much better he can be with Bagley in the middle.

Old Dukie
01-07-2018, 02:25 PM
I don’t understand what you think has changed exactly. Duke has consistently gone after and gotten commitments from top players- Ferry, Hill, Brand, Burgess, Williams etc were all top players in their classses. In the past, these guys did not go one and done. Now they do. Irving was recruited to a team of veterans. So was Rivers. Hood transfered and Jabari was one and done and the defense suffered. When Jah was recruited - no one expected Jones and Winslow to be one and done- but three left along with the loss of Rasheed and Duke had holes to fill. Duke lost a number of players to transfer. Duke is doing the same thing it has always done but now guys are leaving after a year or so. Duke could change its recruiting and go after second tier guys and K can try to get back to the old days- but it is his team. He likes coaching these guys even if some fans don’t like the product. I suspect in a few years when Coach K retires and the NBA rules change- Duke will be happy to get the best players they can get.

I have no problem with the OAD approach, and I agree Coach K likes coaching these guys, - but you can't coach them as you did in days passed. OAD's can't/won't play good D - they're more interested in showcasing their offensive abilities to the NBA scouts. So you must go more with Zone D and backcourt pressure against the opposition's ball movement upcourt. Additionally the OAD game today requires a strong bench, and Duke's assistants are failing in developing same!

Old Dukie
01-07-2018, 02:35 PM
The only one that did not play yesterday was Goldwire. As for Carter- he has had a pretty good season so far. Almost averaging a double double. Not sure how much better he can be with Bagley in the middle.

O'Connell saw VERY LITTLE playing time as did Vrankovic. As for Carter, he gives up as much as he contributes (terrible D), - and his double/doubles mostly came against inferior opponents and smaller sized competitors. When he goes up against the likes of Abu, Freeman, and Yurtseven (all intense hustlers) he seems disheartened, disinterested, and distanced......no intensity in his game. Vrankovic's increased playing time might not contribute that many points, but it would send Carter a message......and help him develop as well.

dukelifer
01-07-2018, 02:38 PM
I have no problem with the OAD approach, and I agree Coach K likes coaching these guys, - but you can't coach them as you did in days passed. OAD's can't/won't play good D - they're more interested in showcasing their offensive abilities to the NBA scouts. So you must go more with Zone D and backcourt pressure against the opposition's ball movement upcourt. Additionally the OAD game today requires a strong bench, and Duke's assistants are failing in developing same!

Well Duke has zoned a ton this year. Maybe the pressure will help- we shall see. The bench consists of Javin- super athletic big- Bolden - a top talent in his H.S. class that has struggled with injuries- AOC who has had some excellent moments and Goldwire who has work to do but is capable of spelling Duval. That is not bad. White is the only guy that perhaps needs development. All the others have played and at times played well.

Wahoo2000
01-07-2018, 02:40 PM
Couple of thoughts from an outside perspective:

I don't think the 1 and done rule is good for Duke. Despite similar results, this seems like a better "fit" for KY and a coach like Cal who seems a little closer to the end of the spectrum of coaching where the strategy is "roll the ball out and let the players make plays". I'm sure he's a good X's&O's coach, but his offensive systems seem pretty basic.

K is such a master tactician and fundamentals coach I don't think he has these kids anywhere near long enough to instill his mindset/systems/etc. I'm sure there are those out there that think he'd be better off only going after one or maybe two top 5-10ish players per class, and filling out the rest with top 25-50ish players that could really develop into top tier players after 2-3 years of experience. That's an incredibly tough balancing act though, and also an extreme shift in recruiting strategy that doesn't have a ton of margin for error.

Also, although I have a ton of respect for K and what he's accomplished, I'll echo the thoughts of Duke fans up the thread who are annoyed/irritated at the "we're just not deep" comments. There is certainly a ton of recruiting-ranking-based depth. If those players aren't good enough to compete, that's on the coaching staff and you shouldn't use it as a reason/excuse for losses. If you're not creating depth to get your younger stars as much experience as possible, that's on you. If the bench players are too young and you mean you don't have veteran depth, you can also blame yourself for not recruiting players who are more likely to be 3-4 year players. Again, I respect the hell out of what K has accomplished, but the depth thing is super-annoying - and being a fan from another school, you won't hear me harp on it again.

I still things will "click" for Duke in pretty short order, and those who think the regular season title is out the window are probably living in a marijuana-is-legal-for-recreational-purposes state. I really think the ACC regular season winner will be 14-4 or 13-5, and those are still definitely within reach as long as the players start to "get it" within the next couple of weeks. I could totally see this Duke team only dropping 2-3 more games the rest of the regular season.

Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15
01-07-2018, 02:41 PM
Just do it.

This is not the time for puns. This team needs to gel. We need to be running the weave on the fast break, and we need permenant changes on D. We need Allen to curl off the baseline for open threes. Fans need to not wig out.

dukelifer
01-07-2018, 02:42 PM
O'Connell saw VERY LITTLE playing time as did Vrankovic. As for Carter, he gives up as much as he contributes (terrible D), - and his double/doubles mostly came against inferior opponents and smaller sized competitors. When he goes up against the likes of Abu, Freeman, and Yurtseven (all intense hustlers) he seems disheartened, disinterested, and distanced...no intensity in his game. Vrankovic's increased playing time might not contribute that many points, but it would send Carter a message...and help him develop as well.

Do you really think Carter is not trying? That kid is intense. He is not a finished product but hustle and intensity is not his issue. Yesterday was not his best game but it is not because he is disinterested.

lotusland
01-07-2018, 02:44 PM
This is not the time for puns. This team needs to gel. We need to be running the weave on the fast break, and we need permenant changes on D. We need Allen to curl off the baseline for open threes. Fans need to not wig out.

Here we go.

House G
01-07-2018, 02:45 PM
As the late Yogi Berra said, “It’s deja vu all over again” and “You can observe a lot by watching”. Every game seems like a rerun for me.
Captain obvious: our defense is awful in general but our man to man, in my opinion, is atrocious and should largely be abandoned with this team (yeah, I know, good luck). As Bilas said, the 2-3 zone allows our big men to stay in position and they don’t have to go out and guard ball screens as much. My guess is that guys like Carter are so much better than most players in high school that they either aren’t taught or don’t have reason to learn how to box out, how to set a screen without moving, how to run a pick and roll, how to guard a guy without putting an arm-bar on him, that it’s important to get back on defense, the importance of communication, and so on. But game after game I see little improvement in many of these areas. I doubt this is due to coaching, so I wonder about a steep learning curve. I share the concern of some others that our defense is unlikely to improve much moving forward.
If this is the case, then we must maximize our potential on offense. We may be a great offensive team, but I see room for improvement. I see a team that wants to get out in transition and play up-tempo, but I also see one that can be very impatient in their half court offense. I see too many outside shots taken without bigs down low to rebound. I see too many threes taken by guys shooting <20%. I see poor pick and roll offense. I see poor rebounding position (and I realize our rebounding stats). I see big men starting with the ball outside the arc and trying to dribble drive. (I really do intend this as constructive criticism).
And finally (and I must sound like a broken record), I see Mr. Marvin Bagley lll, arguably one of the greatest talents to ever wear a Duke uniform. As good as his numbers are, I believe they can be better. I am reminded of rookie Adrian Peterson, who was playing in his 8th NFL game. He rushed for 253 yards—in the second half—and 296 yards in a game on 30 carries. As a Viking fan, I remember the Chargers simply had no answer for him, and everyone in the stadium knew he was going to get the ball. I feel the same way about Bagley, except he (and Carter) need more touches. They need to be in the low post and teams must be made to defend them. Too many times Bagley calls for the ball down low and we fail to get it to him.
I would like to think a lot of these things will improve with experience, and perhaps I would benefit from more patience.
I’ll close this verbosity with one more Yogi-ism: always remember, “it ain’t over ‘til it’s over”.

kAzE
01-07-2018, 02:49 PM
Everybody take a deep breath, relax and repeat after me:

This is the youngest team Coach K has ever coached.

Did you really think this would be a finished product in early January? To be honest, I thought we would be around 13-2 at this point in the schedule. I did not think BC and NC State would be the 2 losses, but hey, true road games in the ACC are hard to win when you're this young. If our defense is still this bad a month from now, then I'll be worried.

Reasons for optimism:

- This team had a LOT of success early in the early season. For such a young team, I'm still pretty excited how good we were right off the bat.

- We're still the only team who has beaten Michigan State.

- Grayson Allen is having maybe the worst shooting slump in his career right now. That will not continue.

- Our defense can only go up from here. I'm not sure how you can do worse than give up 96 to NC State.

- Last year, we lost our first THREE road games in the ACC, and then lost at HOME to State. And we still ended up becoming a pretty damn good team by March.

Expanding on the Grayson point: I don't think he's ever had to be the 2nd banana. Ever. When he came in the game as a freshman, he used possessions like he was the #1 option. Then, he actually was the #1 option for the next 2 years. With Bagley on the team, he should be the #2. (Remember when Bagley had to come out of the MSU game? Guess who dominated the rest of that game?) Grayson's been a volume shooter his whole career, but now he has to learn how to find his touch while shooting less than he's used to.

However, his performance at NC State was not very good. He was not aggressive enough, and played like he was the 4th or 5th option rather than the 2nd. It's always a challenge adapting to a new role, but it's one I'm very confident he's capable of meeting. He knows he has to learn how to play off of better players, because that's how it's going to be every night in the NBA. He just can't be this passive. Once he finds the perfect balance between deferring to Bagley and looking for his own offense, then we'll start seeing the old Grayson again.

CDu
01-07-2018, 03:04 PM
Everybody take a deep breath, relax and repeat after me:

This is the youngest team Coach K has ever coached.

Did you really think this would be a finished product in early January? To be honest, I thought we would be around 13-2 at this point in the schedule. I did not think BC and NC State would be the 2 losses, but hey, true road games in the ACC are hard to win when you're this young. If our defense is still this bad a month from now, then I'll be worried.

Reasons for optimism:

- This team had a LOT of success early in the early season. For such a young team, I'm still pretty excited how good we were right off the bat.

- We're still the only team who has beaten Michigan State.

- Grayson Allen is having maybe the worst shooting slump in his career right now. That will not continue.

- Our defense can only go up from here. I'm not sure how you can do worse than give up 96 to NC State.

- Last year, we lost our first THREE road games in the ACC, and then lost at HOME to State. And we still ended up becoming a pretty damn good team by March.

Expanding on the Grayson point: I don't think he's ever had to be the 2nd banana. Ever. When he came in the game as a freshman, he used possessions like he was the #1 option. Then, he actually was the #1 option for the next 2 years. With Bagley on the team, he should be the #2. (Remember when Bagley had to come out of the MSU game? Guess who dominated the rest of that game?) Grayson's been a volume shooter his whole career, but now he has to learn how to find his touch while shooting less than he's used to.

However, his performance at NC State was not very good. He was not aggressive enough, and played like he was the 4th or 5th option rather than the 2nd. It's always a challenge adapting to a new role, but it's one I'm very confident he's capable of meeting. He knows he has to learn how to play off of better players, because that's how it's going to be every night in the NBA. He just can't be this passive. Once he finds the perfect balance between deferring to Bagley and looking for his own offense, then we'll start seeing the old Grayson again.

I agree with a lot of this, but not the last part. At least not in the “new” sense. Allen was our #3 option last year. Tatum and Kennard were both better. So he should be used to being a secondary option. If he hasn’t figured out how to play like a #2 yet, well, that is a concern. Because he has certainly had time to figure out how.

But regardless, the offensive identity is much less the concern for me than the defense. We weren’t great on offense yesterday, but we were good enough. It was on the other end welhere we flopped.

OZ
01-07-2018, 03:07 PM
My bad, I was never strong with numbers. 12-5 is better but still not convinced the one and done strategy fits the Duke way.

Also anyone feel like we need an assistant coach shake up? This staff seems weak to me. Once Wojo and Collins left our staff hadn’t been the same. If this was football you better believe someone is getting fired.

UVA can coach and play defense with far inferior talent. Defense is about will, heart and desire. Something this coaching staff has struggled to implement the last few years.

Defense is also about "team" defense... and "team" concept comes from being together - so some experience is invaluable. Virginia has been mentioned here several times as an example of a good defense... but going unmentioned is UVa's experience. Of their top six players (mp, ppg)...there are three seniors, two sophs and one RS Fr.

There has also been some team comparisons. IMO, this group reminds ME of the 1982-83 team. It was K's first big time recruiting class; and because of those recruits, I can still recall the unrealistic high expectations, I and others had of that team. But, we finished 11-17! I can still remember the agony of being badly beaten at home by unc and them being destroyed by UVa in the ACC Tourney. The main conversation around me from those seated in the Duke section at the ACC Tourney was "how long oh Lord, how long are we going to have to suffer like this? Even with these new guys, K still can't win. Maybe, it's time for a new coach?"

When we see the high rankings of these HIGH SCHOOL recruits, there is the inevitable expectation of instant gratification. When I saw this year's team finally put together with Bagley coming and Allen staying, I'll be the first to admit, I started suffering from that fandom psychological malady known as "delusions of grandeur." Though, totally unrealistic, visions of undefeatedness crept into my fantasy world. These were high school players who had never played a minute of college ball... but I couldn't help my enthusiasm. K warned us but, I wouldn't (still won't) listen. So, get on with it K...next play...get that danged D fixed... it's time for the total dominance I dreamed about. I expect nothing less.

Old Dukie
01-07-2018, 03:11 PM
Well Duke has zoned a ton this year. Maybe the pressure will help- we shall see. The bench consists of Javin- super athletic big- Bolden - a top talent in his H.S. class that has struggled with injuries- AOC who has had some excellent moments and Goldwire who has work to do but is capable of spelling Duval. That is not bad. White is the only guy that perhaps needs development. All the others have played and at times played well.

Yes, I agree we've played a lot more zone than in the past, but MORE is needed until these frosh learn how to play good, tight man-to-man.

Regarding the bench play time, White isn't the only guy needing development. ALL those bench guys you and I mention aren't getting enough court time to really develop into solid, consistent players against stiff competition. They have terrific talent but their on-court decision-making (and defensive) skills are sorely lacking. If K decides to push a lineup of 5-6 guys all season, we will pay the price in March as we have in the past!

DukieInBrasil
01-07-2018, 03:16 PM
O'Connell saw VERY LITTLE playing time as did Vrankovic. As for Carter, he gives up as much as he contributes (terrible D), - and his double/doubles mostly came against inferior opponents and smaller sized competitors. When he goes up against the likes of Abu, Freeman, and Yurtseven (all intense hustlers) he seems disheartened, disinterested, and distanced...no intensity in his game. Vrankovic's increased playing time might not contribute that many points, but it would send Carter a message...and help him develop as well.

what you saw in Carter last night is similar to what some State fans say about Abu, Freeman and Yurt7 over time. It's just that last night we saw them get jacked up and play lights out, while Carter did not match their intensity. Your other complaints about Carter are nearly laughable and incorrect: he put up 14&16 on FSU, a top 25 team that almost beat us. Additionally Carter had 4 assists and 4 blocks in that game.
So yes, Carter got outplayed last night and he didn't look all that great, but that is not indicative of his season so far.

Acymetric
01-07-2018, 03:19 PM
I am not a sharp basketball mind the way some on here are, but I have some fragments of ideas (some of which have been touched on earlier) and I'm curious if it makes any sense. A lot has been said about being the #2 option on offense having an impact on the way Grayson plays. But it does not seem we are really putting him in position to be a #2 option, does it? He does not run the offense (even when Duval is on the bench for the most part) and the offense does not run through him (we do not run plays to get him the ball). So he is reliant on kickouts from the bigs or a good pass to set him up from Duval. I'm not sure a guy can really be a #2 option if that is the offensive game plan in place for him, so where some seem to think he is being too passive I tend to believe that is a result of the flow of the offense. Some of that probably lies with coaching, some could be with the way other players are playing (not saying anyone is playing selfishly, but that they are not looking for Grayson like the #2 option he is during play).

Old Dukie
01-07-2018, 03:21 PM
I agree with a lot of this, but not the last part. At least not in the “new” sense. Allen was our #3 option last year. Tatum and Kennard were both better. So he should be used to being a secondary option. If he hasn’t figured out how to play like a #2 yet, well, that is a concern. Because he has certainly had time to figure out how.

But regardless, the offensive identity is much less the concern for me than the defense. We weren’t great on offense yesterday, but we were good enough. It was on the other end welhere we flopped.

Everyone's concern is the defense....this group just doesn't seem willing to play it! I think the problem rests largely with the assistant coaches not instilling a sense of pride/accomplishment in playing defense - it shows on their faces. Also, look at all the college teams picking up their defensive schemes more in the opposition's backcourt....it is a way to hide your frontcourt deficiences, use your bench, and play the one-and-doners defensive inabilities.

Old Dukie
01-07-2018, 03:29 PM
what you saw in Carter last night is similar to what some State fans say about Abu, Freeman and Yurt7 over time. It's just that last night we saw them get jacked up and play lights out, while Carter did not match their intensity. Your other complaints about Carter are nearly laughable and incorrect: he put up 14&16 on FSU, a top 25 team that almost beat us. Additionally Carter had 4 assists and 4 blocks in that game.
So yes, Carter got outplayed last night and he didn't look all that great, but that is not indicative of his season so far.

You make the same mistake most are making - focusing on the offense of these players. Sure, Carter can play offense when he wants to but when the competition stiffens, he needs to bring more "A" game on the defensive end.....he has been horrible so far, esp. with the fouls. And I still say he needs to up his intensity level immensely and play like a DUKIE!

uh_no
01-07-2018, 03:29 PM
Everyone's concern is the defense...this group just doesn't seem willing to play it! I think the problem rests largely with the assistant coaches not instilling a sense of pride/accomplishment in playing defense - it shows on their faces.

Yeah...nobody on the coaching staff takes pride in defense. certainly not nolan and jon....playing top defense on their way to a title, and you know those nate james teams never played an ounce of D.

Stray Gator
01-07-2018, 03:36 PM
My bad, I was never strong with numbers. 12-5 is better but still not convinced the one and done strategy fits the Duke way.

Also anyone feel like we need an assistant coach shake up? This staff seems weak to me. Once Wojo and Collins left our staff hadn’t been the same. If this was football you better believe someone is getting fired.

UVA can coach and play defense with far inferior talent. Defense is about will, heart and desire. Something this coaching staff has struggled to implement the last few years.

Just FYI, during the same period when Duke was compiling that 12-5 record in the NCAA Tournament, Virginia's NCAA record was 7-5. You can point out that Virginia developed better defensive teams with players who were not rated as highly among recruiting services as Duke's; but those highly rated players are the ones who deserve much of the credit for providing the offensive firepower that carried Duke to a 12-5 NCAA Tournament record. Or maybe those one-and-done players matured and became better team defenders as the season progressed.

Obviously, if Coach K and his staff could develop the level of defensive prowess in Duke's recent teams, which include multiple one-and-done freshmen, that Tony Bennett has been developing in Virginia's recent teams, which consist mainly of players averaging at least two years of college basketball experience, then Duke would likely have a better record in both the regular season and the postseason tournaments. Who wouldn't want their team to have the best offense and the best defense in college basketball? But to expect that any coaching staff can instantaneously transform multiple freshmen -- whether highly rated one-and-dones or second-level long term prospects -- into defensive stalwarts, who mesh seamlessly with upperclass teammates, is simply unrealistic.

As disappointing as it is for me to see Duke lose a game in which the Blue Devils were favored, it's equally disheartening to come to this forum after the game and see other fans venting their frustration by pointing out all the things they perceive as being wrong with the team -- especially when the criticism is directed against individual coaches and players. Of course, everyone is entitled to their opinions; and there's no rule against venting, provided the posting guidelines are not violated. After many years, I've come to accept as inevitable that some fans seem to revel in seizing upon a loss as an opportunity to share their expertise by noting every negative aspect of the team's performance, in some cases even citing those flaws as evidence of the program's impending demise. So for those who find solace -- or gratification -- in publicly denigrating this team, or the efforts of particular players, or the abilities of our coaches, feel free to proceed. But just for the record, here's my opinion: It's not a good look for Duke fans generally, and it accomplishes nothing.

gep
01-07-2018, 03:49 PM
Yes, I agree we've played a lot more zone than in the past, but MORE is needed until these frosh learn how to play good, tight man-to-man.

...



So I was thinking (as a non-high-tech basketball fan), Duke, in many situations so far, have played good zone-D. Most complaints about Duke's D is in man-to-man. So why not perfect the zone-D, play more zone, and periodically mix in man-to-man, instead of playing man-to-man and periodically mix in zone.

I recall comments earlier in the season that Duke, as currently constituted, have the personnel to play good zone-D.

Also, I recall comments that you can't win a championship with zone,D... and need man-to-man to win championships.

As I've said, I'm not a X/O guy, just a long time basketball fan...:confused:

mgtr
01-07-2018, 03:54 PM
If I could sum up the problems of this team: Duke is playing like a collection of all-stars rather than a team. Oh, wait ...

Old Dukie
01-07-2018, 03:54 PM
Do you really think Carter is not trying? That kid is intense. He is not a finished product but hustle and intensity is not his issue. Yesterday was not his best game but it is not because he is disinterested.

Yes, I really think Carter is disinterested in playing strong defense......he gets beat or outflanked, fouls, or misses coverage constantly, thereby giving up as much as he contributes. Like so many others this year, you focus too much on offense. You say "that kid is intense", but I could show you a 100 better examples of intensity....starting with Tre Young of Oklahoma - that kid defines INTENSITY - and he's a freshman! As a second example of intensity, watch Bonzie Colson of Notre Dame when he returns from his leg injury. Carter has a long way to go on the intensity scale.....so far he's doing it all with his OFFENSIVE skills.

kAzE
01-07-2018, 04:15 PM
I agree with a lot of this, but not the last part. At least not in the “new” sense. Allen was our #3 option last year. Tatum and Kennard were both better. So he should be used to being a secondary option. If he hasn’t figured out how to play like a #2 yet, well, that is a concern. Because he has certainly had time to figure out how.

But regardless, the offensive identity is much less the concern for me than the defense. We weren’t great on offense yesterday, but we were good enough. It was on the other end welhere we flopped.

You're right, he was definitely not the #1 guy last year. He should have been something like a co-#1 option with Luke to start the year, but then he got hurt several times, and then Jayson developed very quickly into a go-to player later in the season. The difference this year is that he's not playing with other perimeter scorers. He's having to learn how to feed the post and play off of elite big men for the first time in his Duke career. It's an adjustment, just like any. I think we will see the good Grayson Allen again when it really matters.

As for the defense, you are also correct, but this is kind of something at least I've become accustomed to at this point. Young teams not coached by John Calipari are just bad at defense until they figure it out. How bad were we defensively last year, until we were suddenly really good in the ACC tournament? It's always frustrating of course, and banking that it'll get better does feel rather foolish, but it always happens. Every time. And in case anybody is wondering, we will almost assuredly be bad at defense early next year, too.

Trust the process.

DangerDevil
01-07-2018, 04:15 PM
Everybody take a deep breath, relax and repeat after me:

This is the youngest team Coach K has ever coached.

There is no reason to think that this team is anywhere close to being a finished product nor playing close to its’ potential. Sure it is frustrating for us to watch as fans but kAzE is correct, we all need to take a deep breath and step back from the ledge.

Even Jay “I don’t want to say anything nice about Duke for fear of being labeled a Blue Devil homer” has gone out of his way numerous times (including last night’s game) to point out that this team is so young and will continue to get better as the season continues.

If we give up 96 points to our 1st round opponent then we can get upset, assuming we don’t score 125 ourselves.

Old Dukie
01-07-2018, 04:18 PM
So I was thinking (as a non-high-tech basketball fan), Duke, in many situations so far, have played good zone-D. Most complaints about Duke's D is in man-to-man. So why not perfect the zone-D, play more zone, and periodically mix in man-to-man, instead of playing man-to-man and periodically mix in zone.

I recall comments earlier in the season that Duke, as currently constituted, have the personnel to play good zone-D.

Also, I recall comments that you can't win a championship with zone,D... and need man-to-man to win championships.

As I've said, I'm not a X/O guy, just a long time basketball fan...:confused:

I agree wholeheartedly! Even more Zone D should be played.....and the Duke coaches must realize this when you commit to the one-and-done game. Moreover, applying more pressure/traps (just a couple guys) to the opponent's ball handlers in the backcourt would slow things down and allow the Dukie frontcourt bigs some time to analyze and position themselves accordingly.

Old Dukie
01-07-2018, 04:25 PM
All players have bad nights but without other options on those nights it's hard to win games. If the bench players can't get in a game like this (with some very poor play by the starters) then it seems like the coaching staff has no confidence in them. I can only imagine how frustrating it is for those bench players.

It's not that the Duke coaches have no confidence in their bench, rather it's that they aren't paying attention to it and the VITAL role it plays in today's college ball, with all the one-and-doners! They (coaches) MUST bite the bullet and start developing (takes work) these bench players more - esp. on DEFENSE!

JBDuke
01-07-2018, 04:56 PM
Yes, I really think Carter is disinterested in playing strong defense...he gets beat or outflanked, fouls, or misses coverage constantly, thereby giving up as much as he contributes. Like so many others this year, you focus too much on offense. You say "that kid is intense", but I could show you a 100 better examples of intensity...starting with Tre Young of Oklahoma - that kid defines INTENSITY - and he's a freshman! As a second example of intensity, watch Bonzie Colson of Notre Dame when he returns from his leg injury. Carter has a long way to go on the intensity scale....so far he's doing it all with his OFFENSIVE skills.

I couldn't disagree with you more. Just because a player doesn't show his emotions on every play or run around like a chicken with its head cut off, it doesn't mean he lacks intensity. Carter is a cerebral player. He has immense talent on offense AND defense. I suspect that, like many freshmen, he is learning a lot from the coaches, but it takes a while in most cases to ingest the lessons and turn them into instinctive actions on the court. In the meanwhile, he looks slow to react - heck, he IS slow to react - because he has to think about what he's been told and then do it, rather than defending properly without having to think first.

I'm not the least bit worried about Carter's intensity or his defensive acumen. He's smart, he's got immense talent, and he works hard. He's already one of the best players in the ACC - averaging 13.5 points, 8.7 rebounds, 1.9 assists, and 1.9 blocks a game while shooting better than 60% from the floor.

wavedukefan70s
01-07-2018, 05:03 PM
I agree wholeheartedly! Even more Zone D should be played....and the Duke coaches must realize this when you commit to the one-and-done game. Moreover, applying more pressure/traps (just a couple guys) to the opponent's ball handlers in the backcourt would slow things down and allow the Dukie frontcourt bigs some time to analyze and position themselves accordingly.

Absolutely agree.
maybe man to man won't work with this group. maybe a zone is the key.

Stray Gator
01-07-2018, 05:10 PM
I couldn't disagree with you more. Just because a player doesn't show his emotions on every play or run around like a chicken with its head cut off, it doesn't mean he lacks intensity. Carter is a cerebral player. He has immense talent on offense AND defense. I suspect that, like many freshmen, he is learning a lot from the coaches, but it takes a while in most cases to ingest the lessons and turn them into instinctive actions on the court. In the meanwhile, he looks slow to react - heck, he IS slow to react - because he has to think about what he's been told and then do it, rather than defending properly without having to think first.

I'm not the least bit worried about Carter's intensity or his defensive acumen. He's smart, he's got immense talent, and he works hard. He's already one of the best players in the ACC - averaging 13.5 points, 8.7 rebounds, 1.9 assists, and 1.9 blocks a game while shooting better than 60% from the floor.

Right. Note that Carter leads this team in blocks with 28 -- Bagley is next with 17, while playing an average of 7 more minutes per game than Carter -- and has 9 steals, so he must be doing something right on defense.

JBDuke
01-07-2018, 05:20 PM
It's not that the Duke coaches have no confidence in their bench, rather it's that they aren't paying attention to it and the VITAL role it plays in today's college ball, with all the one-and-doners! They (coaches) MUST bite the bullet and start developing (takes work) these bench players more - esp. on DEFENSE!

Recent experience does not support your contention that a bench is VITAL in today's game. And Coach K has repeatedly demonstrated that he prefers a shorter bench, not a longer one, so I wouldn't hold your breath waiting for him to bite that bullet.

UrinalCake
01-07-2018, 05:28 PM
I may be in the minority here but I do NOT think that giving Bagley more shots is the answer. He is a stud and can score at will but this team needs to develop an offensive balance and force feeding it to him every single time is not going to lead to success in March/April. I remember in 2014/15 we spent most of the year isolating Okafor and feeding it to him and he shot 60+% from the field, but our team didn’t really click until his usage rate declined and everybody else got involved rather than standing around and watching Oak. Bagley isn’t the same type of black hole, he works well within the offense but my point is that we can’t rely on him 100% for all of our scoring. Defenses are obviously aware of our strengths and are now game planning around preventing Bagley from getting the ball and scoring, and we need to adjust.

I do wonder why we don’t zone more after it was so effective beating Michigan State. NC State is without their starting point guard; using that swarming zone to pressure the ball and then cutting off the passing lanes seemed like it would have worked but we’ve totally gone away from it.

Regarding the bench, the time to develop players like O’Connell and Javin was in the OOC season against the scrub teams. We cannot throw them out there against ACC opponents and expect them to learn on the fly. But that didn’t happen. I’m not really as upset about it as others though; coming into the season I didn’t expect much from Alex and certainly not Goldwire or White and I knew we were going to ride our starting 5.

PackMan97
01-07-2018, 06:02 PM
coming into the season I didn’t expect much from Alex and certainly not Goldwire or White and I knew we were going to ride our starting 5.

Don't let the soft bigotry of low recruiting rankings imapct what a player should or shouldn't be able to do.

Braxton Beverly was ranked #352 in his class and is starting as a freshman. That's about the same range as Goldwire.

Kedsy
01-07-2018, 06:14 PM
A good team finds a way to win it.

Duke has faced second-half deficits in 8 of our 15 games so far, and we won 6 of those 8 games. You're never going to win all of them. No college team has gone undefeated since 1976. I think this year's team has shown they can "find a way to win it" more than the vast majority of teams.

Whether we should have had second-half deficits in those 8 games is another topic, unrelated to the idea that "a good team finds a way to win it."


You don’t include 2013 as they weren’t OAD.

Can we please stop the whole lump-in-every-team-with-an-OAD-player-on-it-as-if-they-were-all-the-same idea? The composition of the, e.g., 2012 team is completely different than this year's.

First of all, for the purposes of this particular discussion, what's the difference between having an OAD freshman getting minutes and having a non-OAD freshman getting minutes? Do the non-OAD freshmen somehow grasp our defensive schemes better than OAD freshmen? I can't see why. With that in mind, here's how many freshmen we've had in our top 7 players (minute-wise) in the past 25 years:

1993: 0
1994: 1
1995: 3
1996: 1
1997: 1
1998: 2 (would have been 3 if Elton Brand hadn't gotten hurt)
1999: 1
2000: 3
2001: 1
2002: 1
2003: 2 (probably would have been 3 if Shavlik Randolph hadn't gotten hurt)
2004: 1
2005: 1
2006: 2
2007: 3
2008: 2
2009: 0
2010: 1
2011: 0 (would have been 1 if Kyrie hadn't gotten hurt)
2012: 1
2013: 1
2014: 1
2015: 3
2016: 3
2017: 3
2018 (so far): 5

From this chart, lumping in 2012 and 2014 NCAAT stumbles in with our recent seasons doesn't make sense. And the number of freshmen we are relying on this season is basically unprecedented (though we did have freshmen as four of our top seven in 1983, as an earlier poster pointed out; however the difference in eras (since almost all teams kept almost all their players for four years in those days) makes a comparison with 1983 difficult).

If you must try a comparison, we had multiple freshmen among our top seven guys in:

1995 (didn't make NCAAT)
1998 (3-1 in NCAAT)
2000 (2-1 in NCAAT)
2003 (2-1 in NCAAT)
2006 (2-1 in NCAAT)
2007 (0-1 in NCAAT)
2008 (1-1 in NCAAT)
2015 (6-0 in NCAAT)
2016 (2-1 in NCAAT)
2017 (1-1 in NCAAT)

Looking at it this way, there's no reason to discount 2015, and our overall NCAAT record is 19-8 (.704). In the years where we had 0 or 1 freshmen in the top 7, our NCAAT record was 37-13 (.740), slightly better than the multi-frosh group, but not enough to make any dramatic deductions.

And, yeah, we made the Final Four in six of the seven seasons before 1993, and in only one of those seasons were multiple freshmen featured in the rotation, but (again) it was a different era.

I'm sure reasonable people could chop this up differently. If we go back 15 seasons, for example, it's 14-6 for multi-frosh (.700) vs. 18-7 (.720). If we go back 10 seasons, it's 10-3 for multi-frosh (.769) vs. 13-5 (.722) Not too much difference in either case.

Bottom line is, there are challenges in playing with multiple freshmen. There are challenges in playing with less talent. Either way, for the purposes of this discussion, 2012 and 2014 really shouldn't be lumped in with 2015, 2016, and 2017, so rejecting the OAD "system" based on three seasons (or two seasons, if you for some reason discount 2015) is kind of ridiculous, especially if you remember that 2017 was seemingly derailed a lot more by a historically high number of injuries than it was by having too many freshmen.


O'Connell and Goldwire for sure - they both have moxie and court savvy. Also, Vrankovic needs more time in place of Carter...he brings in spirit/intensity and would perhaps make Carter hungrier.

There is absolutely no reason to believe that putting Jordan Goldwire or Antonio Vrankovic or Jack White or Justin Robinson on the floor would have made any difference in yesterday's game. The dropoff in talent from our top 6 or 7 players and the four above-mentioned players is so vast that giving more minutes to those guys at the end of the bench can't reasonably be expected to help.

Alex O'Connell might be another story, but even with not playing much last night, he's averaging 11.5 mpg, so I'm not sure how much more time you think he'd need to be game-ready.

Oh, and by the way, I thought Antonio's defense in the brief time he was in the game was pretty bad last night (which admittedly didn't really distinguish him from anyone else). Again, he would not have improved our D more than Wendell or anyone else.


If K decides to push a lineup of 5-6 guys all season, we will pay the price in March as we have in the past!

Coach K has coached this way forever, and it's kinda crazy to say we've "[paid] the price in March as we have in the past." In 2010, in the championship game, only five Duke players saw double-figure minutes. In both 2015 and 2001, we only had six double-figure minute players in fully half of our close games. In 1992, it was almost half. In 2000 and 2002 and 2016, we basically played six-man rotations the entire seasons, and while those teams all lost in the Sweet 16, it didn't seem like those losses were because we didn't play a longer rotation.

On the other hand, the seasons in which we've played the longest rotations in the past 20 years (all 7.5 man-rotations) were 1997, 2008, 2012, and 2014, and our combined NCAAT record in those four seasons was 2-4 (.333). So you're assertion that the shorter rotations will hurt us (or conversely that longer rotations would help us) appears to be utterly unsupported by fact.


You say, "especially when the criticism is directed against individual coaches and players". I'm sorry to state the obvious, but it IS THEY who make up the team and thus its performance. Would you prefer we go after the Duke mascot??? GEEEEEEEEZ - GET OVER IT!...venting frustration is a part of a fan's inalienable right.

You joined the forum this week and you're already here? Lighten up, Francis.

DUKIE V(A)
01-07-2018, 06:31 PM
My bad, I was never strong with numbers. 12-5 is better but still not convinced the one and done strategy fits the Duke way.

Also anyone feel like we need an assistant coach shake up? This staff seems weak to me. Once Wojo and Collins left our staff hadn’t been the same. If this was football you better believe someone is getting fired.

UVA can coach and play defense with far inferior talent. Defense is about will, heart and desire. Something this coaching staff has struggled to implement the last few years.

While I agree our guys need to play with more heart and determination on the defensive end, I disagree about the coaching staff and your assessment of UVA's talent level. We have an outstanding coaching staff. Also, for the record, UVA has extremely talented kids who happen to be more defensive minded. High school player rankings are largely based on offensive talent. Justin Anderson, Bogdon, etc. are total studs whose offensive games were not as polished as some higher ranked players. I am sure Coach K and his staff consider all factors when making recruiting decisions but UVA is getting very high level talent. BTW, what has UVA's NCAA record been lately? Solid relative to many programs but also disappointing and unspectacular.

accfanfrom1970
01-07-2018, 06:36 PM
Does the convincing Ohio State win over Michigan State change any opinions about where Duke should be? Maybe this is just going to be one of those unpredictable seasons. Hopefully we get hot at the end and win it all.