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View Full Version : MBB: Duke at NC State (Sat, 1/6, 8pm, ESPN) Pre-Game and In-Game Thread



gofurman
01-03-2018, 10:38 PM
Looking for some insight from Packman

What is State good at? What are they weak at? I hope they don't shoot the three really well bc we don't close out on shooters well right now

PackMan97
01-03-2018, 11:11 PM
What is State good at? What are they weak at? I hope they don't shoot the three really well bc we don't close out on shooters well right now

What is State good at? Losing
What are we weak at? Winning

I'd have an entirely different opinion if Markel Johnson was still on the team, but he's not....so without him we have no guards that excel defensively and we have no guards that are more than one dimensional offensively.

Right now we are perhaps the worst shooting team I can remember for an NC State team. We have some good talent on the inside, but without Johnson as a threat to drive or any capable shooters, defenses are going to collapse inside and dare our guards to shoot (which they are more than happy to do).

As I said in the "This Week" thread, I'll be surprised if we keep it within 20...at the half.

Right now we are a collection of individual players, most of which wouldn't start for the better teams in the ACC, playing really poor team ball.

Johnson was the one player we couldn't afford to lose...and well...there you go.

arnie
01-04-2018, 06:48 AM
What is State good at? Losing
What are we weak at? Winning

I'd have an entirely different opinion if Markel Johnson was still on the team, but he's not...so without him we have no guards that excel defensively and we have no guards that are more than one dimensional offensively.

Right now we are perhaps the worst shooting team I can remember for an NC State team. We have some good talent on the inside, but without Johnson as a threat to drive or any capable shooters, defenses are going to collapse inside and dare our guards to shoot (which they are more than happy to do).

As I said in the "This Week" thread, I'll be surprised if we keep it within 20...at the half.

Right now we are a collection of individual players, most of which wouldn't start for the better teams in the ACC, playing really poor team ball.
Johnson was the one player we couldn't afford to lose...and well...there you go.
So I don’t understand why the front court isn’t a major factor for the Pack. Abu has been there forever and played very well in many games. Yurtseven seems to have improved and can play inside and out. The other forward that plays - can’t recall his name this early- has been a solid contributor.

I agree the backcout is no better than average, but Dorn is OK and everyone raved early over the kid (Beverly) that was released from OHO State. Seems like they have fairly good pieces, maybe they don’t fit into KK system? I still think they are a threat at home.

arnie
01-04-2018, 07:11 AM
So I don’t understand why the front court isn’t a major factor for the Pack. Abu has been there forever and played very well in many games. Yurtseven seems to have improved and can play inside and out. The other forward that plays - can’t recall his name this early- has been a solid contributor.

I agree the backcout is no better than average, but Dorn is OK and everyone raved early over the kid (Beverly) that was released from OHO State. Seems like they have fairly good pieces, maybe they don’t fit into KK system? I still think they are a threat at home.

Freeman is the other forward and they have another Freeman that shoots too much. Last night State was 6 of 18 from 3, which is typical for them. Hopefully, our D doesn’t transform them into the Golden State Warriors.

PackMan97
01-04-2018, 08:23 AM
So I don’t understand why the front court isn’t a major factor for the Pack. Abu has been there forever and played very well in many games. Yurtseven seems to have improved and can play inside and out. The other forward that plays - can’t recall his name this early- has been a solid contributor.

I agree the backcout is no better than average, but Dorn is OK and everyone raved early over the kid (Beverly) that was released from OHO State. Seems like they have fairly good pieces, maybe they don’t fit into KK system? I still think they are a threat at home.

For the front court to factor into things, you need a back court that can get them the ball. Without Johnson, State simply doesn't have that player. Add in the fact none of the front court players are tenacious rebounders, they can disappear (like last night).

I love Beverly and he has exceeded all expectations. However he is a freshman and was the #350th ranked recruit. Expecting him to turn around an team with two losing seasons in a row, in the ACC, is a bit much. Right now he is more of a game manager than the game changer Johnson was.

Another thing to think about, two losing seasons in a row and we lost our top 3 players (Smith Jr to the NBA, Henderson to the NCAA stupidity, and Rowan to Europe/Africa/pros). Only three of our players that had minutes last year return. I know Duke and Kentucky have to patchwork teams, but that's with burger boys and even thenits often a down year.

PackMan97
01-04-2018, 09:00 AM
followup:

I don't want to sound too much like a negative nelly. I love the Wolfpack. I think Keatts was a fantastic hire and will do good things (clearly, we already have Arizona's scalp in our trophy case). I'm just not optomistic about this season without Johnson's to run the offense and pressure the ball on defense. I feel like Keatts doesn't have the guys to run his system, but not running his system means that next year the returning players have less familiarity with it. Even if we adapted the offense and defense more to our players for this season, I don't see it netting us that many more wins.

BandAlum83
01-04-2018, 09:25 AM
Go Duke!!!

Troublemaker
01-04-2018, 10:20 AM
A well-coached team that's desperate, playing at home. No matter what PackMan says, expect a close game, a possible loss, and be pleasantly surprised if PackMan is right.

PackMan97
01-04-2018, 10:41 AM
if PackMan is right.

Note to all: PM97 is the diminutive form of PackMan97. I prefer not to be called PackMan.

Thank you :)

CDu
01-04-2018, 10:46 AM
NC State has a new coach, and that new coach wants them to play fast. Keatts employs a heavy dose of press, and the Pack are #54 in tempo (we are #49, FSU is #39). Unfortunately, Keatts doesn't have his guys yet, and as such State is BAD at defense (#140). In short, expect a lot of points in this one, with two high-pace, bad defensive teams going at it. But we should win, as our offense is amazing and State's offense is pretty blah. Aside from offensive rebounding (which they do really well), the Pack do most everything else fairly poorly.

Center: State has just the one center in Omer Yurtseven (7'0", 245lb soph from Turkey). Yurtseven is big and a good athlete, and is not a bad shooter either. He averages 11 and 7 in just 20 mpg. State doesn't play any other true centers (or even anyone else over 6'8") so we should have a decided size advantage for most of the game.

Forwards: Lennard Freeman (6'8", 245lb redshirt senior) is currently the starter. Freeman historically has been a terrific rebounder, but less so this year. He has improved his offensive game, largely by taking a lot of shots at/near the rim. He's shooting 72% from the field and from the FT line. Solid, though not spectacular, player. Good for him too coming back from missing last year with injury. The guy that everyone expected to start (and who may still get the job) though is Abdul-Malik Abu (6'8", 235lb senior). Abu is a physical specimen: terrific run/jump athlete with a really solid frame. Unfortunately, he has not quite been able to translate those athletic gifts into basketball skills, and only at times has shown the dominance that his tools should suggest. Abu sprained his MCL in October, and his season hasn't gotten started great since returning. But he's a dangerous player if he gets going. Shaun Kirk (6'8", 195lb junior) is the de facto third forward, but is more of a "break in case of emergency" forward. He doesn't do much of anything well. You may or may not remember him from his HS recruitment by Kentucky. The Pack will also occasionally go small.

Wings: Al Freeman (6'3", 200lb grad transfer from Baylor) leads the way. Freeman is a bull of a wing, strong and physical and athletic. And he's never met a shot he didn't like. At Baylor, Freeman was actually a pretty good perimeter shooter, but so far at State he has shot it pretty poorly. He leads the team in scoring, but does so at a low efficiency. That said, he's a very dangerous player who is capable of getting hot and being a handful. Alongside Freeman is Torin Dorn (6'5", 200lb junior transfer from Charlotte). Dorn has NBA SG phyiscal traits, but plays more like a stretch 4 than a true guard. Like Freeman, he shot better in previous seasons, but has struggled with his shot this year. He is a tenacious rebounder though, and leads the team in total rebounds (and is up there in rebound % too). Behind the starters, Sam Hunt (6'2", 185lb grad transfer from NC A&T) is a good shooter who takes almost all his shots from 3.

Point guards: Here is where the wheels have come off the track for State. Their starter, Markell Johnson (6'1" 165lb soph), is suspended indefinitely for a violation of student conduct. He was their engine. Without him, they rely on two freshmen at PG, or a gunner of a SG to handle the ball. That's not ideal. Braxton Beverly (6'0" 180lb frosh) has stepped in since being cleared and done a solid job facilitating the offense. He has an assist/turnover rate of almost 3. But he struggles to score efficiently. Over half his shots are 3s, which he shoots well (36%). But he also shoots just 36% on 2s. Lavar Batts Jr (6'2", 170lb frosh) fills a bit of the backup PG duty, and provides versatility but not great shooting.

This is a game we should win, and we should win convincingly. State just doesn't have the talent or the depth to win. Not saying we can't lose, but it would be a bad loss for sure. Let's impose our will on them early and win convincingly!

proelitedota
01-04-2018, 01:00 PM
Our recent title teams have dropped their first game at PNC. In fact most of our recent teams have lost to the Pups, including a bad one at home last year. I wouldn't be surprised if they give us a game.

Olympic Fan
01-04-2018, 01:26 PM
Al Freeman is the key ... he can get his shot any time, any place -- and usually does. And usually misses.

AF has 70 more shots than the No. 2 guy on the team.

He's a terribly erratic shooter (32 percent; 30 percent from 3) with three bad games for every good one. In fact, if I had one negative reaction to Keatts so far (it's mostly positive), it would be his refusal to reign in Al Freeman.

But he defines the Pack right now.

PS ... interesting that with 205 shot attempts, Freeman has made 71 field goals. The No. 2 guy on the shot list, Torin Dorn, has 134 shots ... and 74 made field goals.

Kedsy
01-04-2018, 01:33 PM
In fact most of our recent teams have lost to the Pups...

In last 10 seasons:

Overall record vs. NCSU: 13-4
Road record vs. NCSU: 3-3
Home record vs. NCSU: 7-1
ACCT record vs. NCSU: 3-0
# of Duke teams with loss to NCSU: 4 (40%)

In last 15 seasons:

Overall record vs. NCSU: 20-7
Road record vs. NCSU: 5-5
Home record vs. NCSU: 10-1
ACCT record vs. NCSU: 5-1
# of Duke teams with loss to NCSU: 7 (47%)

In last 20 seasons:

Overall record vs. NCSU: 33-7
Road record vs. NCSU: 10-5
Home record vs. NCSU: 15-1
ACCT record vs. NCSU: 8-1
# of Duke teams with loss to NCSU: 7 (35%)

Though it is true that 3 of our last 5 Duke teams have lost to State, so I guess it depends on your definition of "recent."

No matter, since over the last 15 years we've only won half our games @ NC State, I wouldn't be surprised if they give us a game, either. (If the game was at Duke, I probably would be surprised.)

CDu
01-04-2018, 01:46 PM
Though it is true that 3 of our last 5 Duke teams have lost to State, so I guess it depends on your definition of "recent."

No matter, since over the last 15 years we've only won half our games @ NC State, I wouldn't be surprised if they give us a game, either. (If the game was at Duke, I probably would be surprised.)

I would say that the last 5 years is a better definition of "recent" than the last 10, 15, or 20 years. I wouldn't argue that anything prior to the one-and-done era (for Duke, not for the onset of the rule) is really "recent". But your mileage may vary.

That said, I would absolutely agree that a loss in this game would be surprising. It's a pretty bad State team, and one in substantial roster transition.

CDu
01-04-2018, 01:53 PM
Al Freeman is the key ... he can get his shot any time, any place -- and usually does. And usually misses.

AF has 70 more shots than the No. 2 guy on the team.

He's a terribly erratic shooter (32 percent; 30 percent from 3) with three bad games for every good one. In fact, if I had one negative reaction to Keatts so far (it's mostly positive), it would be his refusal to reign in Al Freeman.

But he defines the Pack right now.

PS ... interesting that with 205 shot attempts, Freeman has made 71 field goals. The No. 2 guy on the shot list, Torin Dorn, has 134 shots ... and 74 made field goals.


I'll note that the shots-taken discrepancy isn't quite as large between #1 and the rest once we account for minutes. Freeman leads the team in minutes. But he shoots 0.39 shots per minute. Yurtseven shoots 0.38 shots per minute. Freeman And Dorn shoots 0.32 shots per minute. Abu and Lennard Freeman both shoot 0.28 shots per minute. So Freeman still shots most frequently, but the 70-shot discrepancy is a function of playing time.

I think the problem is that State is really short on offensive talent. Freeman is one of the few guys who can create his own shot. He's also one of the most talented and most experienced players they have. And without a strong PG to facilitate for others, State is left trying to find ways to score. So it makes sense for Freeman to take a heavy load of the offense. The loss of Markell Johnson REALLY hurts them. Without him, they are a bit rudderless, as Beverly isn't the playmaker that Johnson is.

MChambers
01-04-2018, 03:07 PM
I would say that the last 5 years is a better definition of "recent" than the last 10, 15, or 20 years. I wouldn't argue that anything prior to the one-and-done era (for Duke, not for the onset of the rule) is really "recent".

Depends on how old you are, sonny boy! :-)

CY_devil
01-04-2018, 03:11 PM
Al Freeman is the key ... he can get his shot any time, any place -- and usually does. And usually misses.

I fully expect Al Freeman to have a career day against us. For a variety of reasons - including the name on the jersey and historically bad 3 ball D - it seems like we turn AF type players into heroes for 40mins...

PackMan97
01-04-2018, 03:56 PM
I fully expect Al Freeman to have a career day against us. For a variety of reasons - including the name on the jersey and historically bad 3 ball D - it seems like we turn AF type players into heroes for 40mins...

Not quite true. You remember the career nights, because it usually takes guys playing the best game of their career to beat Duke.

Fish80
01-04-2018, 04:02 PM
I fully expect Al Freeman to have a career day against us. For a variety of reasons - including the name on the jersey and historically bad 3 ball D - it seems like we turn AF type players into heroes for 40mins...

You may be right,
I may be crazy,
but we just might find the defense we've been looking for ...

kAzE
01-04-2018, 05:14 PM
This seems like a good match up for Duke on paper. They don't have great shooting, nor do they have much size on the interior. But I'm sure some sub-30% shooter like Freeman will be inexplicably hot from deep. This seems to happen to us a lot this year. I still don't think they can beat us without a legit inside presence. Not having Abu at 100% really hurts. We're almost surely going to dominate the glass on both ends, which should result in a W.

Billy Dat
01-04-2018, 05:26 PM
Wendell, in this State preview, provides some really key insights into what Duke's been focused on to improve their defense:

https://247sports.com/college/duke/Bolt/WATCH-Wendell-Carter-Trevon-Duval-Preview-NC-State-Game-113217593

"Communicate, and don't let nobody score"

uh_no
01-04-2018, 05:27 PM
You may be right,
I may be crazy,
but we just might find the defense we've been looking for ...

possession of man....
possession of zone....
perhaps a TO to set the tone....

Henderson
01-04-2018, 07:23 PM
Note to all: PM97 is the diminutive form of PackMan97. I prefer not to be called PackMan.


That's going to be a little confusing, dontcha think? Mind if we call you Bruce just to keep it clear?

This is an ACC road game. We played one of those against a far inferior opponent about a month ago. This is no gimme.

-bdbd
01-04-2018, 07:31 PM
Al Freeman is the key ... he can get his shot any time, any place -- and usually does. And usually misses.

AF has 70 more shots than the No. 2 guy on the team.

He's a terribly erratic shooter (32 percent; 30 percent from 3) with three bad games for every good one. In fact, if I had one negative reaction to Keatts so far (it's mostly positive), it would be his refusal to reign in Al Freeman.

But he defines the Pack right now.

PS ... interesting that with 205 shot attempts, Freeman has made 71 field goals. The No. 2 guy on the shot list, Torin Dorn, has 134 shots ... and 74 made field goals.

So, who will guard Freeman then? Given the week off, I expect K to come in really prepared for this one.

PM: Isn't "PackMan" the name of the defense they play at Wahoo-U?? :p

dukelifer
01-04-2018, 07:51 PM
That's going to be a little confusing, dontcha think? Mind if we call you Bruce just to keep it clear?

This is an ACC road game. We played one of those against a far inferior opponent about a month ago. This is no gimme.

Until Duke can show a decent defense against an ACC level opponent- anything is possible. State will be extra focused for this one.

uh_no
01-04-2018, 08:21 PM
PM: Isn't "PackMan" the name of the defense they play at Wahoo-U?? :p

pack line

Uncle Drew
01-05-2018, 04:21 AM
After reading Mr. Featherston's article on the Duke vs. NCSU rivalry I think many NCSU in state non-alumni fans gradually became Duke fans over the last three plus decades as an ABC alternative. But there is obviously a lot of respect (and mutual disdain for a common enemy) between the schools and fans. A loss to State is never a good thing for Duke, BUT a lot of us have an "if Duke has to lose to somebody" mindset...

I was thinking back to some of my own personal memories about the rivalry and various games. And ESPN classic taught me my memory about certain sporting events in the past didn't happen quite the way I remembered. (For over a decade the events that led UNC to their first Dean Dome loss against Len Bias and Maryland were slightly erroneous.) BUT, and I say this with nothing but respect; there are some readers here that have lived longer than me and can fill in gaps or set me straight.

I did my best to research this online, but I can't even find a box score for the game much the less video footage. UNC won the 1979 ACCT with a victory over an injured and ill Duke team. To get to that game Duke beat NCSU the night before 62-59; and the events in that game are the ones I THINK I'm trying to recall. Does anyone recall Duke being up one point and Mike Gminski drawing a foul (perhaps due to intentional end game strategy)? If my memory serves correctly, the refs called a 1 and 1 but apparently Gminski was the only one that got the memo it wasn't a two shot foul. We can argue Duke scoring, rebounding and blocks but the G-Man was one of the best big man free throw shooters they ever had. So it was odd when he missed the first free throw. The ball bounced right back to Gminski and he dropped it into the basket for two points. (With no three point shot, that was probably game, set, match.) Is my memory failing me, or is that the game and is that the way it happened?

I'd also be interested in reading any other reader Duke / NCSU game memories. David Thompson memories. Jim Valvano memories. Thank you ahead of time for setting me straight or verifying what I recall.

Bob Green
01-05-2018, 06:09 AM
I did my best to research this online, but I can't even find a box score for the game much the less video footage. UNC won the 1979 ACCT with a victory over an injured and ill Duke team. To get to that game Duke beat NCSU the night before 62-59; and the events in that game are the ones I THINK I'm trying to recall. Does anyone recall Duke being up one point and Mike Gminski drawing a foul (perhaps due to intentional end game strategy)? If my memory serves correctly, the refs called a 1 and 1 but apparently Gminski was the only one that got the memo it wasn't a two shot foul. We can argue Duke scoring, rebounding and blocks but the G-Man was one of the best big man free throw shooters they ever had. So it was odd when he missed the first free throw. The ball bounced right back to Gminski and he dropped it into the basket for two points. (With no three point shot, that was probably game, set, match.) Is my memory failing me, or is that the game and is that the way it happened?



I cannot answer your Gminski free throw sequence question, but here is the game box score:

http://goduke.statsgeek.com/basketball-m/games/boxscore.php?gameid=19790302

Gminski scored 16 points and was 0-2 from the line.

Uncle Drew
01-05-2018, 06:24 AM
I cannot answer your Gminski free throw sequence question, but here is the game box score:

http://goduke.statsgeek.com/basketball-m/games/boxscore.php?gameid=19790302

Gminski scored 16 points and was 0-2 from the line.

Bob Green,

Thank you for finding and posting the link to the game box score. (0-2? So much for my memory of Gminski being an excellent FT shooting big man.) In doing research I noticed the Duke / NCSU game was on a Friday and the championship game was on Saturday. When did the ACCT move the championship game to Sunday (before recently moving it back to Saturday)? I was thinking that might have been the year the ACCT got delayed a day due to a rare March snowfall, but not with a Saturday championship...

House G
01-05-2018, 07:29 AM
After reading Mr. Featherston's article on the Duke vs. NCSU rivalry I think many NCSU in state non-alumni fans gradually became Duke fans over the last three plus decades as an ABC alternative. But there is obviously a lot of respect (and mutual disdain for a common enemy) between the schools and fans. A loss to State is never a good thing for Duke, BUT a lot of us have an "if Duke has to lose to somebody" mindset...

I was thinking back to some of my own personal memories about the rivalry and various games. And ESPN classic taught me my memory about certain sporting events in the past didn't happen quite the way I remembered. (For over a decade the events that led UNC to their first Dean Dome loss against Len Bias and Maryland were slightly erroneous.) BUT, and I say this with nothing but respect; there are some readers here that have lived longer than me and can fill in gaps or set me straight.

I did my best to research this online, but I can't even find a box score for the game much the less video footage. UNC won the 1979 ACCT with a victory over an injured and ill Duke team. To get to that game Duke beat NCSU the night before 62-59; and the events in that game are the ones I THINK I'm trying to recall. Does anyone recall Duke being up one point and Mike Gminski drawing a foul (perhaps due to intentional end game strategy)? If my memory serves correctly, the refs called a 1 and 1 but apparently Gminski was the only one that got the memo it wasn't a two shot foul. We can argue Duke scoring, rebounding and blocks but the G-Man was one of the best big man free throw shooters they ever had. So it was odd when he missed the first free throw. The ball bounced right back to Gminski and he dropped it into the basket for two points. (With no three point shot, that was probably game, set, match.) Is my memory failing me, or is that the game and is that the way it happened?

I'd also be interested in reading any other reader Duke / NCSU game memories. David Thompson memories. Jim Valvano memories. Thank you ahead of time for setting me straight or verifying what I recall.

I had the fortune of watching David Thompson when I was at Duke. He has been described as the greatest ACC player ever and it’s hard to argue with that. I dug up this video which was of interest to me. When Thompson played, there was no three point line and dunks were outlawed. He was such a great leaper and “played above the rim” but had to just lay the ball in the basket. I had forgotten about his block of Bill Walton. Is his jersey still the only NC State Jersey that’s been retired?
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=J3cjrTdbJn8

House G
01-05-2018, 07:51 AM
And while I’m at it, Thompson heads this list:
http://bleacherreport.com/articles/741241-college-basketball-power-rankings-the-25-greatest-players-in-acc-history
How about concensus first team All-American for three straight years!

PackMan97
01-05-2018, 09:09 AM
Is his jersey still the only NC State Jersey that’s been retired?

Yes it is. We have a simple requirement for getting your jersey retired. National Player of the Year.

We have started honoring jerseys for those not as accomplished. I believe the hurdle for having your jersey retired is All-American, ACC POY or Lead the ACC in scoring.

jv001
01-05-2018, 09:49 AM
I had the fortune of watching David Thompson when I was at Duke. He has been described as the greatest ACC player ever and it’s hard to argue with that. I dug up this video which was of interest to me. When Thompson played, there was no three point line and dunks were outlawed. He was such a great leaper and “played above the rim” but had to just lay the ball in the basket. I had forgotten about his block of Bill Walton. Is his jersey still the only NC State Jersey that’s been retired?
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=J3cjrTdbJn8

DT was the best this Duke fan has seen. He could do it all. Great leaper, pound for pound, inch by inch he was the greatest. He usually guarded one of the opposing bigs. If I'm not mistaken, he guarded Tom McMillan when State played the Terps. DT was a very good outside shooter as well. Had the ACC had the 3 point basket and the Dunk rule, David probably would have scored many more points in his career. He was a joy to watch. Would have even been better if he had worn Duke Blue. GoDuke!

Kedsy
01-05-2018, 01:59 PM
I did my best to research this online, but I can't even find a box score for the game much the less video footage. UNC won the 1979 ACCT with a victory over an injured and ill Duke team. To get to that game Duke beat NCSU the night before 62-59; and the events in that game are the ones I THINK I'm trying to recall. Does anyone recall Duke being up one point and Mike Gminski drawing a foul (perhaps due to intentional end game strategy)? If my memory serves correctly, the refs called a 1 and 1 but apparently Gminski was the only one that got the memo it wasn't a two shot foul. We can argue Duke scoring, rebounding and blocks but the G-Man was one of the best big man free throw shooters they ever had. So it was odd when he missed the first free throw. The ball bounced right back to Gminski and he dropped it into the basket for two points. (With no three point shot, that was probably game, set, match.) Is my memory failing me, or is that the game and is that the way it happened?

I was at this game, but I don't remember the game-ending play you describe. That doesn't mean it didn't happen. It's possible it happened but I didn't realize G-man intentionally missed the initial free throw. I believe my seats were in the opposite end zone to where he would have been shooting.

And, by the way, Gminski was a career 79% free throw shooter at Duke, so at least you're recollection of him being a good free throw shooter is accurate.

Olympic Fan
01-05-2018, 03:51 PM
DT was the best this Duke fan has seen. He could do it all. Great leaper, pound for pound, inch by inch he was the greatest. He usually guarded one of the opposing bigs. If I'm not mistaken, he guarded Tom McMillan when State played the Terps. DT was a very good outside shooter as well. Had the ACC had the 3 point basket and the Dunk rule, David probably would have scored many more points in his career. He was a joy to watch. Would have even been better if he had worn Duke Blue. GoDuke!

Count me among those who think that Thompson was the greatest player in ACC history ... the greatest non-big man in all of college basketball history.

Jordan became the second greatest NBA player ever, but his college experience -- while good -- was nothing close to Thompson's. DT had much better career stats (26.8 ppg, 7.8 rpg.) than Jordan (17.0 ppg, 5.9 rpg), he won more honors (three-time ACC POY to one for Jordan) and his teams had a better winning percentage -- both won one national title, but Thompson was MVP of the Final Four ... Jordan was the third best payer in 1982 with Worthy and Perkins.

One interesting note -- he averaged 29.9 ppg as a senior ... he would have had 30.0 ppg, but in his last home game, Thompson made a statement in the final seconds on a breakaway by intentionally dunking the ball. That cost him two points than would have pushed him to 30.0 ppg for the season.

PS And he was a superb long-range shooter ... he would have scored a lot more with the 3-point shot (and the shot clock -- many teams slowed the pace and tried to hold it on State in those years).

UrinalCake
01-05-2018, 04:26 PM
I did not realize until today that State’s starting PG had been dismissed from the team. I watched them beat Arizona at the start of the season and they looked really good. But without their PG I would expect us to press and trap a lot like we did against MSU, create some turnovers and prevent them from getting into a rhythm offensively. I also am quietly hoping for some good minutes from Bolden, as Yurtseven seems like a good matchup for his size and skill set and if Wendell gets into foul trouble then I’d rather not go small against their front court.

But if State is shooting 50%+ from three and hits 15 of them then everything kind of goes out the window.

thedukelamere
01-05-2018, 04:35 PM
Jordan became the second greatest NBA player ever, but his college experience.....

Not to derail this thread, but I'll bite... Who do you have MJ behind? Kareem?

Uncle Drew
01-05-2018, 04:38 PM
I was at this game, but I don't remember the game-ending play you describe. That doesn't mean it didn't happen. It's possible it happened but I didn't realize G-man intentionally missed the initial free throw. I believe my seats were in the opposite end zone to where he would have been shooting.

And, by the way, Gminski was a career 79% free throw shooter at Duke, so at least you're recollection of him being a good free throw shooter is accurate.

Full disclosure: Gminski was the player I idolized as a kid. The player I pretended to be shooting hoops in the driveway making the game winning basket. (But 6' tall is all I could manage.) I could list fifty Duke players I was a huge fan of, but Gminski (yes Duke had hoops before K) is still my favorite. I seem to remember Gminski being great at drawing fouls on opposing players, maybe that was just in a game or two.

Kedsy I could be wrong about the whole scenario. But I don't think Mike G intentionally missed. Duke had a one point lead, one free throw would have meant a tie and OT at the worst. When he missed the free throw the rebound came right back to Gminski, NOBODY moved much the less blocked out; the G-Man laid it in and everything stopped. I seem to remember the refs talking among themselves and with the official scorer to be sure they had called a 1 and 1. Once it was determined the refs had not called a two shot foul, Mike G was awarded 2 points and with little time and no 3 pointers State was toast. Billy Packer announced the game I'm talking about...I remember him praising Gminski for the heads up play.

Duke was probably going to win anyway. It was just a curious end to an odd game...

PackMan97
01-05-2018, 04:45 PM
There will never be a player like Thompson simply because a talent like that would never play more than a season in college now. Even as it was, he only got to play three years because back in the day, freshman were deemed unready for college sports. /lol

It does make me wonder, given Dean Smiths deferential treatment of upperclassman, what Jordan could have done as a senior.

JNort
01-05-2018, 05:00 PM
Not to derail this thread, but I'll bite... Who do you have MJ behind? Kareem?

I didn't post it but I already have LeBron ahead of him. It is obviously a very "hot" topic but to me it just isn't all that close anymore. The only thing it seems the Jordan truthers can bring up is finals record which I put little stock in when it comes to GOAT conversations in any sport except perhaps as a tie breaker.

kAzE
01-05-2018, 05:12 PM
I didn't post it but I already have LeBron ahead of him. It is obviously a very "hot" topic but to me it just isn't all that close anymore. The only thing it seems the Jordan truthers can bring up is finals record which I put little stock in when it comes to GOAT conversations in any sport except perhaps as a tie breaker.

If finals record is the be-all end-all, the #1 player of all time is Bill Russell. 11-1 is better than 6-0.

I dunno if I would personally put LeBron ahead of Jordan today, but he's on track to surpass MJ. The guy is having his best statistical season ever and he's still got some years to go. It's a weird conversation to have without his entire career in the rear view, though.

rasputin
01-05-2018, 05:15 PM
I didn't post it but I already have LeBron ahead of him. It is obviously a very "hot" topic but to me it just isn't all that close anymore. The only thing it seems the Jordan truthers can bring up is finals record which I put little stock in when it comes to GOAT conversations in any sport except perhaps as a tie breaker.

This discussion often diverges based on the age of whoever is posting. I think OF may have been referring to Bill Russell, but I don't want to put words in his mouth.

OldPhiKap
01-05-2018, 05:19 PM
Kyrie is #1. Just gonna take time for folks to recognize it.

Hingeknocker
01-05-2018, 05:45 PM
I didn't post it but I already have LeBron ahead of him. It is obviously a very "hot" topic but to me it just isn't all that close anymore. The only thing it seems the Jordan truthers can bring up is finals record which I put little stock in when it comes to GOAT conversations in any sport except perhaps as a tie breaker.

I was going to interject to say LeBron if you hadn't replied yet. Glad you also had the correct answer ;)

DU82
01-05-2018, 05:57 PM
I did my best to research this online, but I can't even find a box score for the game much the less video footage. UNC won the 1979 ACCT with a victory over an injured and ill Duke team. To get to that game Duke beat NCSU the night before 62-59; and the events in that game are the ones I THINK I'm trying to recall. Does anyone recall Duke being up one point and Mike Gminski drawing a foul (perhaps due to intentional end game strategy)? If my memory serves correctly, the refs called a 1 and 1 but apparently Gminski was the only one that got the memo it wasn't a two shot foul. We can argue Duke scoring, rebounding and blocks but the G-Man was one of the best big man free throw shooters they ever had. So it was odd when he missed the first free throw. The ball bounced right back to Gminski and he dropped it into the basket for two points. (With no three point shot, that was probably game, set, match.) Is my memory failing me, or is that the game and is that the way it happened?

I'd also be interested in reading any other reader Duke / NCSU game memories. David Thompson memories. Jim Valvano memories. Thank you ahead of time for setting me straight or verifying what I recall.

That was my recall regarding G-Man's free throw and putback, but I thought it was in 1980, not 1979. But the score matches the 1979 game for sure. I didn't think he intentionally missed it, but he surprised us watching in House CC by being the only one aware enough to rebound and put it back.

The reason I thought it was 1980 was that winning that semi-final game meant I got to go to the final as at the time, bands only went to the final. It wasn't until 1983 when bands were invited to attend all games (I assume that BandAlum83 went to Atlanta to see Ralph destroy us and then complain, the game Coach K will never forget.)

DU82
01-05-2018, 06:12 PM
Bob Green,

Thank you for finding and posting the link to the game box score. (0-2? So much for my memory of Gminski being an excellent FT shooting big man.) In doing research I noticed the Duke / NCSU game was on a Friday and the championship game was on Saturday. When did the ACCT move the championship game to Sunday (before recently moving it back to Saturday)? I was thinking that might have been the year the ACCT got delayed a day due to a rare March snowfall, but not with a Saturday championship...

The first Sunday championship was in 1982. (Not counting if there were Sunday games back in the '50s or '60s.)

I do not recall that any ACCT game has been delayed by weather. In 1980, the championship was played the night of a ten+ inch blizzard, but the teams were already in Greensboro. (DUMB made it to the game from Durham in what was probably Southern Coach's oldest and heaviest bus.) In 1990, there was a big snow storm the day of the Saturday games (semis), and power went out in the second Charlotte Coliseum, but the games were completed. Those were the two major snow storms I remember during the ACC tournament since I started at Duke. (I believe there was snow in 1978, since I remember that Bill Foster said something to the effect that Duke would win the ACC the same time it would snow in NC in March. OF or Jim Summer can confirm.)

jimsumner
01-05-2018, 06:52 PM
The snow/ACC Tournament thing started in 1960, when it snowed in North Carolina darn near the entire month of March. Vic Bubas' first Duke team captured Duke's first ACC Tournament title and Duke's first two NCAA-Tournament wins.

Hence the connection.

Olympic Fan
01-05-2018, 07:33 PM
Not to derail this thread, but I'll bite... Who do you have MJ behind? Kareem?

JNort got it ... I've argued several times on this board that Bill Russell is the greatest player in NBA history (and with two NCAA titles and an Olympic Gold, is the greatest player in all basketball history).

Let me sum it up this way -- he joined a franchise that had never been to the finals, much less won a title. He led that franchise to 11 championships in 13 seasons (and was hurt in one of the two losses). He retired after winning the title in his 13th season and the team that had won 11 titles in 13 years promptly finished under .500 and missed the playoffs.

I too would rather not derail this thread ... if you want to debate the Russell-Jordan dynamic further, please start a new thread. I'll participate.

CDu
01-05-2018, 08:05 PM
JNort got it ... I've argued several times on this board that Bill Russell is the greatest player in NBA history (and with two NCAA titles and an Olympic Gold, is the greatest player in all basketball history).

Let me sum it up this way -- he joined a franchise that had never been to the finals, much less won a title. He led that franchise to 11 championships in 13 seasons (and was hurt in one of the two losses). He retired after winning the title in his 13th season and the team that had won 11 titles in 13 years promptly finished under .500 and missed the playoffs.

I too would rather not derail this thread ... if you want to debate the Russell-Jordan dynamic further, please start a new thread. I'll participate.

Was he the greatest, or just timed perfectly? Russell didn’t arrive alone on a bad team. He joined the #2 team in the East (with Bill Sharman and Bob Cousy), along with another star rookie Tom Heinsohn. And in addition to those two additions, the Celtics got Frank Ramsey back from military service. The next year, Sam Jones arrived. And as the careers of Sharman and Ramsey wound down, Auerbach brought in some guy from Ohio St named Havlicek.

Not that Russell wasn’t an all-time great. He surely was. But the case you’ve presented is a little disingenuous. Red Auerbach was the greatest team builder of all time, and the additions of Russell/Heinsohn and the return of Ramsey all came together as the final pieces to the Celtics dynasty. But I don’t agree with Russell as the greatest. And the 11 in 13 is just as bad an argument for Russell over others as the 6-0 is an awful argument for Jordan over LeBron. So much more goes into those championships than any one player’s contributions.

OldPhiKap
01-05-2018, 08:13 PM
If I am reading it right, we opened at about a 3.5 point favorite but it has ballooned out to 11 or 11.5

CDu
01-05-2018, 08:21 PM
If I am reading it right, we opened at about a 3.5 point favorite but it has ballooned out to 11 or 11.5

3.5 seems absurd.

uh_no
01-05-2018, 08:24 PM
3.5 seems absurd.

what was the line on BC?

CDu
01-05-2018, 08:33 PM
what was the line on BC?

Don’t know. But you of all people know that outcomes don’t validate spreads.

tbyers11
01-05-2018, 08:42 PM
If I am reading it right, we opened at about a 3.5 point favorite but it has ballooned out to 11 or 11.5

Opening line was Duke by 10.5 according to this tweet

https://twitter.com/SportsChannel8/status/949390791679578114

Henderson
01-05-2018, 08:43 PM
what was the line on BC?

I think it was high teens. Like -18.5 or so.

According to Vegas Insider (http://www.vegasinsider.com/college-basketball/odds/las-vegas/), the NCSU line opened at -11. -3.5 would have been pretty weird.

PackMan97
01-05-2018, 08:45 PM
Opening line was Duke by 10.5 according to this tweet

https://twitter.com/SportsChannel8/status/949390791679578114

I didn't know they did betting lines for halftime :) ....even the it's a bit low.

OldPhiKap
01-05-2018, 08:53 PM
Opening line was Duke by 10.5 according to this tweet

https://twitter.com/SportsChannel8/status/949390791679578114

That would make more sense. I was using this site:

http://www.oddsshark.com/ncaab/odds

uh_no
01-05-2018, 09:08 PM
Don’t know. But you of all people know that outcomes don’t validate spreads.

Of course. I think "absurd" is a bit of a strong rejection, however, at least from a predictive perspective, though perhaps not from a betting perspective. 3.5 is something like a 65% win rate. Given our current ACC road win rate is 0%, and that we presumably didn't cover vs FSU, i think the -3.5 is at least not absurd from a strictly bayesian perspective. Clearly, from a betting perspective, it was absurd, judging by the movement.

rsvman
01-06-2018, 12:30 AM
This thread had taken some twists and turns, and I certainly don't want to derail it any further, but I just have to say something in response to the claim that David Thompson was the "greatest non-big in college basketball history." Did you not see Pete Maravich?

I now return you to your regularly scheduled thread.

gofurman
01-06-2018, 01:21 AM
what was the line on BC?

I saw around 15

BandAlum83
01-06-2018, 01:34 AM
That was my recall regarding G-Man's free throw and putback, but I thought it was in 1980, not 1979. But the score matches the 1979 game for sure. I didn't think he intentionally missed it, but he surprised us watching in House CC by being the only one aware enough to rebound and put it back.

The reason I thought it was 1980 was that winning that semi-final game meant I got to go to the final as at the time, bands only went to the final. It wasn't until 1983 when bands were invited to attend all games (I assume that BandAlum83 went to Atlanta to see Ralph destroy us and then complain, the game Coach K will never forget.)

We went 0-9 against Ralph and UVA during my tenure. The longest road trip I can recall was Clemson for a football game. I'm pretty sure we didn't go to that 1983 tournament game if the 83 tournament was in Atlanta.

BandAlum83
01-06-2018, 01:39 AM
The first Sunday championship was in 1982. (Not counting if there were Sunday games back in the '50s or '60s.)

I do not recall that any ACCT game has been delayed by weather. In 1980, the championship was played the night of a ten+ inch blizzard, but the teams were already in Greensboro. (DUMB made it to the game from Durham in what was probably Southern Coach's oldest and heaviest bus.) In 1990, there was a big snow storm the day of the Saturday games (semis), and power went out in the second Charlotte Coliseum, but the games were completed. Those were the two major snow storms I remember during the ACC tournament since I started at Duke. (I believe there was snow in 1978, since I remember that Bill Foster said something to the effect that Duke would win the ACC the same time it would snow in NC in March. OF or Jim Summer can confirm.)

The "Storm of the century" was 1993 when a blizzard raged outside thhe charlotte colesium. I drove up from Atlanta for that tournament on tickets with an FSU friend and our wives. I don't think 1990 had a big storm. I could be wrong. Atlanta also got dumped on that year and I came home to a giant pine tree in my front yard that was snapped clean about 20 feet up the trunk. Luckily it landed just short of the house.

Bay Area Duke Fan
01-06-2018, 02:37 AM
This thread had taken some twists and turns, and I certainly don't want to derail it any further, but I just have to say something in response to the claim that David Thompson was the "greatest non-big in college basketball history." Did you not see Pete Maravich?

What about Oscar Robertson?

DU82
01-06-2018, 08:49 AM
The "Storm of the century" was 1993 when a blizzard raged outside thhe charlotte colesium. I drove up from Atlanta for that tournament on tickets with an FSU friend and our wives. I don't think 1990 had a big storm. I could be wrong. Atlanta also got dumped on that year and I came home to a giant pine tree in my front yard that was snapped clean about 20 feet up the trunk. Luckily it landed just short of the house.

After a while the dates/years blend together. We lost Friday night, and Saturday morning the snow hit so we were stuck in Charlotte for the day when all I wanted to do was go back to Durham.

I assumed as a senior you went to Atlanta in 1983. The band definitely did that year. (Coach thought he could take 20 band members, it turned out it was 20 people including him, which meant 19 players. I was number 20; as a grad student I had gone before, and I was the easiest “cut”.)

CDu
01-06-2018, 09:18 AM
Of course. I think "absurd" is a bit of a strong rejection, however, at least from a predictive perspective, though perhaps not from a betting perspective. 3.5 is something like a 65% win rate. Given our current ACC road win rate is 0%, and that we presumably didn't cover vs FSU, i think the -3.5 is at least not absurd from a strictly bayesian perspective. Clearly, from a betting perspective, it was absurd, judging by the movement.

BC is a better team than State without Johnson. The BC result is also fairly flukish, probably represents one end on the extreme. And I am not sure that a one-game ACC road sample should move the needle that much, especially from a Bayesian perspective where this team’s prior should have been quite positive. Thus, I think 3.5 is absurd.

For reference, T-Rank has us as a 14.3 point favorite. I would imagine Pomeroy expects something similar. That sounds a lot more likely than a 3.5 point spread. Even if we have struggled on the road.

Not saying a 3 point win can’t happen. Just that it shouldn’t be the expectation.

OldPhiKap
01-06-2018, 09:53 AM
Frankly, I just put the spread up there to turn the thread back to the topic.

Let’s go Duke!!! Tough road game. They all are, and the fragment are fixin’ to start finding out what Tobacco Road is all about.

dukelifer
01-06-2018, 11:38 AM
BC is a better team than State without Johnson. The BC result is also fairly flukish, probably represents one end on the extreme. And I am not sure that a one-game ACC road sample should move the needle that much, especially from a Bayesian perspective where this team’s prior should have been quite positive. Thus, I think 3.5 is absurd.

For reference, T-Rank has us as a 14.3 point favorite. I would imagine Pomeroy expects something similar. That sounds a lot more likely than a 3.5 point spread. Even if we have struggled on the road.

Not saying a 3 point win can’t happen. Just that it shouldn’t be the expectation.

Why are you not including Duke’s performance against other power-5 conference apponents on the road or neutral courts? Duke has not easily handled any team away from Cameron. That is certainly typical for young teams. These games are always tricky to play. I expect Duke will win but it may not be easy for the bulk of the game. Every road experience is new for this team.

DukieInBrasil
01-06-2018, 11:39 AM
State has really had Duke's number lately, and it seems like it's been a combination of factors, including: 1 (or more) player who Duke just can't contain, porous unfocused defense, which leads to, not taking advantage of momentum to extend leads, but rather letting State hang around and then just losing.
Hoping that Duke brings the heat from the get go and pounces on their lack of PG.

CDu
01-06-2018, 11:54 AM
Why are you not including Duke’s performance against other power-5 conference apponents on the road or neutral courts? Duke has not easily handled any team away from Cameron. That is certainly typical for young teams. These games are always tricky to play. I expect Duke will win but it may not be easy for the bulk of the game. Every road experience is new for this team.

Because I was responding to a post that said we had a 0% win percentage in ACC road games. We have just one of those games.

State without Johnson is worse than the Power 5 schools we have faced outside of Cameron. And even that is based on a small sample size of 5 games.

WWBD
01-06-2018, 12:00 PM
I'm perfectly convinced that Dennis Smith Jr. single-handedly cost us a #1 seed last year, and consequently UNC a #2 seed. And therefore, if he didn't directly prevent Duke from winning the title, he at least gifted UNC one.

Troublemaker
01-06-2018, 12:12 PM
Why are you not including Duke’s performance against other power-5 conference apponents on the road or neutral courts? Duke has not easily handled any team away from Cameron. That is certainly typical for young teams. These games are always tricky to play. I expect Duke will win but it may not be easy for the bulk of the game. Every road experience is new for this team.

While I generally agree with a "show me" perspective after a close win @IU and a close loss @BC, i.e. "show me" that you can put away a team like this on the road, the context of the discussion is specifically the point spread. And it really would be unbelievable for a line to be 7-10 points off from computer projections if it were 3.5 (regardless of how the game eventually turns out). You would never, ever see a line be way off like that in that direction. (Maybe you could see a computer-projected 11-pt favorite be lined at 18, but you would never see an 11-pt favorite be lined at 3.5).

Also, an update on the GIF thread. I'll resume this weekend, but since we're this close to game time, I might as well see if Duke does anything differently after a week off.

kmspeaks
01-06-2018, 01:05 PM
Bolden out for tonight with a knee injury. (https://twitter.com/DukeMBB/status/949698344418447362)

OldPhiKap
01-06-2018, 01:08 PM
Bolden out for tonight with a knee injury. (https://twitter.com/DukeMBB/status/949698344418447362)

I hope he has a speedy recovery, and that it is not too bad.

Olympic Fan
01-06-2018, 01:16 PM
This thread had taken some twists and turns, and I certainly don't want to derail it any further, but I just have to say something in response to the claim that David Thompson was the "greatest non-big in college basketball history." Did you not see Pete Maravich?

I saw Pete play at Broughton High School. I saw him play at Edwards Military Academy. And I saw him at LSU.

So what?

Let me ask you: Did you ever see Johnny Neuman?

Neuman was basically the same player at the same time and same place as Pete ... averaging 40 points a game at Ole Miss.

Look, Pete was a great player. He was fun to watch -- wonderfully flamboyant. But he was Ben Simmons in the sense that he was the only decent player on a bad team. He was coached by his father and was able to shoot 25 times a game without consequence. His BEST shooting percentage was 44.7 percent (Thompson was 55.3 for his career). He played in the SEC at a time when only 2-3 schools in the league gave a &^% about basketball -- and LSU was still sub .500 in the league when he was there.

Maybe not a great comparison, but interesting that both were drafted by the Hawks in the NBA draft -- Maravich was the third player taken ... David was the No. 1 player taken.

PS And as for the Bay Arena Duke fan's comment about Oscar ... another great player. But odd that his team got better after he graduated (national titles in the two years after he left)

BandAlum83
01-06-2018, 01:26 PM
After a while the dates/years blend together. We lost Friday night, and Saturday morning the snow hit so we were stuck in Charlotte for the day when all I wanted to do was go back to Durham.

I assumed as a senior you went to Atlanta in 1983. The band definitely did that year. (Coach thought he could take 20 band members, it turned out it was 20 people including him, which meant 19 players. I was number 20; as a grad student I had gone before, and I was the easiest “cut”.)

There were bunch of snares and as someone who joined the band as a sophomore, I guess I was pretty far down the depth chart. Not sure, but closing out an 11-7 season, I guess I wasn't too broken up about it. Especially since we were playing Ralph who we couldn't even beat my freshman year with G-man.

BandAlum83
01-06-2018, 01:32 PM
Why are you not including Duke’s performance against other power-5 conference apponents on the road or neutral courts? Duke has not easily handled any team away from Cameron. That is certainly typical for young teams. These games are always tricky to play. I expect Duke will win but it may not be easy for the bulk of the game. Every road experience is new for this team.

For those of you in the know, How much of a different experience is a road game to say, BC, from a trip to Raleigh? In one, the routine differs as you fly to the destination, sleep in a hotel, go a day before etc. and in the other, you sleep in your own bed and take a short bus ride. It is way much less disruptive to your routine.

I know a lot of the road game is playing in a hostile gym, but the rest goes into the road experience also. Maybe that's why we seem to do ok in Chapel Hill. It's like a home game routine and the wine and cheesers are less hostile.

tteettimes
01-06-2018, 01:37 PM
DAVD was and still is the very best college basketball player I have EVER seen.
I remember being in Cameron to see him play every game....
.special memory is his freshman year...Freshman games then were played prior to the Varsity games..
Cameron was standing room only for the freshman game....
Saw him play in ACC tournaments—-was there in Greensboro 1974.....was in Reynolds when he fell over Phil Spence
Reynolds got so quiet.....as if David just died.....but towards the end of that game HE returned and the crowd ALL Rose in standing ovation.....DAVID WAS A TRUE HERO

BEST I EVER SAW.......THANKS DAVID

I AM A LIFE LONG DUKE FAN ( just in case some of you were wondering ;) )

jimsumner
01-06-2018, 02:08 PM
Pete Maravich would make any list of the most exciting basketball players ever.

He would make any list of players-I-would-pay-to-see.

But great players make their teammates better and there's not much evidence that Pete Maravich made his teammates better, either at LSU or in the NBA. I've talked to coaching contemporaries of Press Maravich who swear that Press consciously avoided bringing in top-tier talent to play with his son because he didn't want anyone to compete with Pete for shots, touches, and attention.

And top-tier talent didn't want to play with Pete, because they knew the deal.

LSU played UCLA in Pete's senior year. UCLA won 133-84. Maravich scored a boatload of points by shooting something like 13-44.

After the game, Wooden was asked about Maravich's behind-the-back dribbles and no-look passes.

"Very impressive. Very impressive. Imagine if he had spent all that time learning to play defense."

As an aside, Kareem was the best college player ever. The discussion begins at second place.

Henderson
01-06-2018, 02:33 PM
Bolden out for tonight with a knee injury. (https://twitter.com/DukeMBB/status/949698344418447362)


I hope he has a speedy recovery, and that it is not too bad.

Pre-game starts an hour before the game, and the radio guys always have a word with one of the coaches. I'll be interested to listen to what they have to say about Bolden. Fingers crossed.

Is DeLaurier's hammy 100%? With Bolden out, we may need his minutes.

BandAlum83
01-06-2018, 03:07 PM
Pre-game starts an hour before the game, and the radio guys always have a word with one of the coaches. I'll be interested to listen to what they have to say about Bolden. Fingers crossed.

Is DeLaurier's hammy 100%? With Bolden out, we may need his minutes.

Or do we flash to the 6.5 rotation on the third game of the conference season? Or will it be a blowout as PM87 believes and we get Justin on the floor early!

OldPhiKap
01-06-2018, 03:24 PM
Or do we flash to the 6.5 rotation on the third game of the conference season? Or will it be a blowout as PM87 believes and we get Justin on the floor early!

It’s over.

kshepinthehouse
01-06-2018, 03:39 PM
That would make more sense. I was using this site:

http://www.oddsshark.com/ncaab/odds

I saw this when I first looked as well.

dbcooper
01-06-2018, 04:17 PM
This is a good read with some interesting facts, a good primer before tonight's game.

http://www.wralsportsfan.com/it-all-started-with-vic-bubas-coach-helped-ignite-ncsu-duke-rivalry/17235037/

Go Duke!

Kedsy
01-06-2018, 04:20 PM
State has really had Duke's number lately...

Duke vs. NCSU
---------------
Last three seasons: Duke 4-2

Last five seasons: Duke 7-3

Last ten seasons: Duke 13-4

I suppose if losing at all means they've "really had Duke's number," then sure.

Kedsy
01-06-2018, 05:15 PM
State has really had Duke's number lately...

You know who really has our number lately? Miami, who has beaten us 5 of our last 8 games against them. Or Notre Dame, who has beaten us 5 of the 8 games we've played since they joined the ACC. State? They've beaten us a couple times out of the last 8.

Not counting this season, here are our 5-year and 10-year numbers against all ACC teams (only teams that have been in the league for at least 5 seasons):

5-year records, Duke vs:

BC: 6-0 (1.000)
Clemson: 5-2 (.714)
FSU: 5-1 (.833)
Ga Tech: 6-0 (1.000)
Miami: 3-4 (.429)
NCSU: 7-3 (.700)
UNC: 8-3 (.727)
UVa: 4-2 (.667)
Va Tech: 5-1 (.833)
Wake: 9-1 (.900)

10-year records, Duke vs:

BC: 12-1 (.923)
Clemson: 10-4 (.714)
FSU: 11-4 (.733)
Ga Tech: 14-1 (.933)
Miami: 9-6 (.600)
NCSU: 13-4 (.765)
UNC: 14-8 (.545)
UVa: 12-2 (.857)
Va Tech: 13-2 (.867)
Wake: 14-3 (.824)

jipops
01-06-2018, 06:20 PM
It will be interesting to see how much zone K uses. If we go primarily with the zone then I think this will be a blowout. However, K wants this team to get plenty of work in on man. Which I think may make thinks a little tighter.

Bob Green
01-06-2018, 06:41 PM
It will be interesting to see how much zone K uses. If we go primarily with the zone then I think this will be a blowout. However, K wants this team to get plenty of work in on man. Which I think may make thinks a little tighter.

State's primary point guard is suspended so I desire to see us utilize a full court and/or three-quarter court press after made baskets. Let's pressure the ball, create turnovers and score.

-jk
01-06-2018, 07:16 PM
DBR Chat (http://forums.dukebasketballreport.com/forums/misc.php?do=cchatbox) is open!

If it gets a bit slow, refresh the page. If you're on a mobile device, you'll need to select "Blue" at the bottom.

As always - please follow the DBR Posting Guidelines.

Let's Go Duke!

-jk

CDu
01-06-2018, 07:26 PM
State's primary point guard is suspended so I desire to see us utilize a full court and/or three-quarter court press after made baskets. Let's pressure the ball, create turnovers and score.

We aren’t very good at forcing turnovers, and the one thing State’s backup PG does well is not turn it over. I am not sure pressing is our best strategy. Maybe occasionally, but not on the regular.

Bob Green
01-06-2018, 07:31 PM
We aren’t very good at forcing turnovers...

Sounds to me like tonight would be a good opportunity to work on getting better forcing turnovers. Time will tell, Coach K will have a game plan and we all will know what it is starting 30 minutes from now.

riverside6
01-06-2018, 07:53 PM
Live tempo-based stats for Duke/NC State, starters posted...

https://www.scacchoops.com/duke-at-nc-state-basketball-live-stats-01062018

jipops
01-06-2018, 08:09 PM
State's primary point guard is suspended so I desire to see us utilize a full court and/or three-quarter court press after made baskets. Let's pressure the ball, create turnovers and score.

Basically what CDu said. We don't do these things well. This just gives more opportunity for State to create space for shots. I mean it could work to an extent and give the guys another look at applying that type of D. But chances are it will make the game closer.

CDu
01-06-2018, 08:18 PM
Well, we are pressing, and it isn’t working. Two easy baskets for State. I really think we are better making them try to score in the halfcourt rather than extending what is already a bad defense.

ipatent
01-06-2018, 08:19 PM
What's the story on Bolden's knee?

jipops
01-06-2018, 08:29 PM
K going to have to go zone. Man D is awful.

CDu
01-06-2018, 08:30 PM
Well, O’Connell got an early audition to play first half minutes. It did not go well. Fumbled away two balls, committed a soft and-1 foul, and then almost threw a turnover. Quickly pulled.

This could be a 6-man rotation tpnight.

arnie
01-06-2018, 08:32 PM
K going to have to go zone. Man D is awful.

K yanked O’Connell immediately after 3-4 poor plays. Didn’t seem to play more than 60 seconds.

Utley
01-06-2018, 08:36 PM
Did Grayson trip a minute ago. I thought I saw a push but the crowd was saying trip.

MChambers
01-06-2018, 08:37 PM
K yanked O’Connell immediately after 3-4 poor plays. Didn’t seem to play more than 60 seconds.

Looked like O’Connell cut his hair and lost his strength.

MChambers
01-06-2018, 08:39 PM
Did Grayson trip a minute ago. I thought I saw a push but the crowd was saying trip.
Not in any kind of intentional sense. I think the State player spun and tripped over Grayson’s foot. Totally routine, but ESPN immediately zoomed in on Grayson.

CDu
01-06-2018, 08:43 PM
Did Grayson trip a minute ago. I thought I saw a push but the crowd was saying trip.

No. He grabbed the driver by the arms and spun him, and the guy fell over his own feet. Just a normal fastbreak foul.

jipops
01-06-2018, 08:45 PM
Wow 12-0 run for Pack. Duke playing very young. This will be a barn burner folks.

arnie
01-06-2018, 08:49 PM
Wow 12-0 run for Pack. Duke playing very young. This will be a barn burner folks.

Not sure we’ll be in the game at the end. A week to prepare and this is what we have.

Hauerwas
01-06-2018, 08:51 PM
Is this a joke? Folks, NCState is a horrible team. They lost by 30 to Notre Dame. We have a week of practice and look like this? This is mind boggling.

Kjeffrey
01-06-2018, 09:00 PM
Too many unforced turnovers and poor rotation on defense.

accfanfrom1970
01-06-2018, 09:03 PM
9 turnovers and only+2 rebounding. 1-6 from 3 and most of them terrible shots, too early in the clock or wrong guys shooting them.

ncexnyc
01-06-2018, 09:03 PM
We've had a lot of discussion on this board about our defense, maybe we should start worrying about our bench.

ipatent
01-06-2018, 09:03 PM
Need to block out Yurtseven.

CDu
01-06-2018, 09:04 PM
Not often we can say that the offense is part of the problem this year, but so far it has been. State is AWFUL defensively, yet we have struggled to score.

I am also not impressed that Coach K has played no bench. Yes, O’Connell stunk for his minute. But State pushes tempo. Foul trouble may well become a problem.

Hopefully we get our act together in the second half.

jipops
01-06-2018, 09:05 PM
We've had a lot of discussion on this board about our defense, maybe we should start worrying about our bench.

But there is no bench to actually worry about. And pretty sure we knew this going in anyways.

ncexnyc
01-06-2018, 09:07 PM
Yes, O’Connell stunk for his minute.

Sorry, but I've got to ask. Which was worse, his play or his haircut?

arnie
01-06-2018, 09:08 PM
Too many unforced turnovers and poor rotation on defense.
Win or lose tonight, maybe we can officially lower our expectations for this team. Hero ball and no awareness on D will be tough to overcome as the ACC season progresses.

Saratoga2
01-06-2018, 09:09 PM
Not often we can say that the offense is part of the problem this year, but so far it has been. State is AWFUL defensively, yet we have struggled to score.

I am also not impressed that Coach K has played no bench. Yes, O’Connell stunk for his minute. But State pushes tempo. Foul trouble may well become a problem.

Hopefully we get our act together in the second half.

Both O'Connell and DeLaurier did not played well leaving it all up to the starters. Also our 3 point shooters remain cold. If we do a little more boxing out, we still should be able to win provided NC State doesn't go wild from 3.

dukelifer
01-06-2018, 09:09 PM
Not often we can say that the offense is part of the problem this year, but so far it has been. State is AWFUL defensively, yet we have struggled to score.

I am also not impressed that Coach K has played no bench. Yes, O’Connell stunk for his minute. But State pushes tempo. Foul trouble may well become a problem.

Hopefully we get our act together in the second half.

State is feeling good about themselves. Duke had a chance to break them- and lost their focus.

Kjeffrey
01-06-2018, 09:09 PM
Not often we can say that the offense is part of the problem this year, but so far it has been. State is AWFUL defensively, yet we have struggled to score.

I am also not impressed that Coach K has played no bench. Yes, O’Connell stunk for his minute. But State pushes tempo. Foul trouble may well become a problem.

Hopefully we get our act together in the second half.

O'Connell did make a few bad plays but he sat the rest of the half. He and Goldwire should be able to play with this NCSU team. This team struggles with defense but for whatever reason K isn't willing to go to the bench. There just doesnt seem to be much urgency on the part of this Duke. They need some defensive fire.

dukelion
01-06-2018, 09:10 PM
Gotta say...this team is really frustrating.

Just don't understand how the D can be so bad week in and week out. Kentucky is young year in and year out but there D is never at risk of falling out of the top 100 in kenpom.

Maybe the D clicks in the tourney but right now this team will have more than a few losses going into March Madness and could easily lose the opening weekend.

Then again they could win it all but man......just start playing some D.

Sixthman
01-06-2018, 09:11 PM
State has done nothing to defend Grayson and yet he has barely seen the ball in the offense, which is a problem since he is our best outside shooter and best at making the entry pass to Carter or Bagley. Duval is physically gifted but does not see the court on offense (it's not clear he looks). He missed Grayson for a transition layup to take a high difficulty shot -- which he made -- and basically is looking to drive in the half court every time, whether it's there or not. Let's be clear about how bad that half was. Marvin Bagley, Grayson Allen and whoever would be the three worst guys on our team on scholarship should beat state if playing reasonably well.

Kjeffrey
01-06-2018, 09:13 PM
Win or lose tonight, maybe we can officially lower our expectations for this team. Hero ball and no awareness on D will be tough to overcome as the ACC season progresses.

Exactly. Each game they play I find myself adjusting my expectations. They are so talented but have so much to learn. I keep thinking if they are struggling with teams on the road like BC and NCSU what is going to happen at Miami or UNC? I just hope by the end of the regular season they get better defensively.

kshepinthehouse
01-06-2018, 09:13 PM
Def need to spread the ball around more in the second half. Let Bagley and Carter have it as much as they want in the post.

I don’t think the defense is going to get better any time soon, if at all.

MChambers
01-06-2018, 09:14 PM
Or at least a bad last 10 minutes. I’m discouraged, but there’s 20 minutes to improve.

Sixthman
01-06-2018, 09:15 PM
Exactly. Each game they play I find myself adjusting my expectations. They are so talented but have so much to learn. I keep thinking if they are struggling with teams on the road like BC and NCSU what is going to happen at Miami or UNC? I just hope by the end of the regular season they get better defensively.

and they don't seem to be learning. More one man show, less team on offense. Defense static. Rebounding remains good, but seems less consistent.

chrishoke
01-06-2018, 09:24 PM
LOL at this Duke team. They would make a church league team look good on offense. Are they uncoached or uncoachable?

CDu
01-06-2018, 09:25 PM
Win or lose tonight, maybe we can officially lower our expectations for this team. Hero ball and no awareness on D will be tough to overcome as the ACC season progresses.

Or, maybe we can just watch the games and hope for improvement as the long season progresses. And not post posts like this.

I would recommend the chat if you are looking to vent.

We are playing poorly tonight. Game isn’t over, nor is the season. 2010 and 2015 had games like this too.

PackMan97
01-06-2018, 09:27 PM
Exactly. Each game they play I find myself adjusting my expectations. They are so talented but have so much to learn. I keep thinking if they are struggling with teams on the road like BC and NCSU what is going to happen at Miami or UNC? I just hope by the end of the regular season they get better defensively.

Often a young team will "play down" to their opponent.

Thinking that State is bad, maybe just try and beat their man and get a highlight on ESPN instead of making the extra pass (or three) that leads to an easy basket. I think against a stronger opponent your players are more inclined to be disciplined and coach-able. Just my $0.02. It's a sign of youth and brashness. Not a bad thing, but it is what it is.

I would also say the opposite is happening for State. For at least a stretch here, they learned to play together well as a team. We all know a well coached Keatts team can hang with pretty much anyone from his time at UNC-W and against Arizona earlier this season. The problem for State has been that they have not looked like a well coached team for most of this season.

We'll see how the second half goes. There is still time for State to lose by 30 :)

BigZ
01-06-2018, 09:28 PM
uke Blue Evils struggling again

curtis325
01-06-2018, 09:28 PM
Or, maybe we can just watch the games and hope for improvement as the long season progresses. And not post posts like this.

I would recommend the chat if you are looking to vent.

We are playing poorly tonight. Game isn’t over, nor is the season. 2010 and 2015 had games like this too.

Thanks, CDU. I find it is really fun to watch the games WITHOUT expectations. I've enjoyed all of them--even BC.

downeastdad
01-06-2018, 09:29 PM
If we lose this game, I seriously wonder if Duke should reconsider the one and done recruiting. Maybe we might want to recruit second tier two or three year players who can learn to play college basketball, rather than NBA basketball. Just wondering.

Kjeffrey
01-06-2018, 09:29 PM
Or, maybe we can just watch the games and hope for improvement as the long season progresses. And not post posts like this.

I would recommend the chat if you are looking to vent.

We are playing poorly tonight. Game isn’t over, nor is the season. 2010 and 2015 had games like this too.

I loved the 2015 highlights. Tyus Jones was a special college player. Hope this team can figure it out like that team did.

ChillinDuke
01-06-2018, 09:30 PM
Why does it seem we don't really run plays to free up Grayson for 3s? We used to run plays for practically all our 3pt shooters I can remember.

- Chillin

arnie
01-06-2018, 09:30 PM
Or, maybe we can just watch the games and hope for improvement as the long season progresses. And not post posts like this.

I would recommend the chat if you are looking to vent.

We are playing poorly tonight. Game isn’t over, nor is the season. 2010 and 2015 had games like this too.

I dont think I’ve said anything that violates any rules. This board has ridiculous expectations for a team with very little experience. I’ll continue to be a realistic poster.

dukelion
01-06-2018, 09:31 PM
Or, maybe we can just watch the games and hope for improvement as the long season progresses. And not post posts like this.

I would recommend the chat if you are looking to vent.

We are playing poorly tonight. Game isn’t over, nor is the season. 2010 and 2015 had games like this too.

A loss to BC and NC State at this juncture would certainly qualify for pumping the breaks on National Championship aspirations.

Yes of course we'll watch and hope for improvement but at this point a cause for concern is more than warranted.

jipops
01-06-2018, 09:33 PM
Hopefully State will get around to doing NC State things.

So far though, easy scores on every possession. *shocker*

CDu
01-06-2018, 09:33 PM
A loss to BC and NC State at this juncture would certainly qualify for pumping the breaks on National Championship aspirations.

Yes of course we'll watch and hope for improvement but at this point a cause for concern is more than warranted.

We lost at State in our last two title teams if I recall correctly.

carteretdevil
01-06-2018, 09:34 PM
We just need a couple of stops on defense. Seems to be aprettt composed group down the stretch from what I have seen this year. At the 13:00 mark, still only a 2 possession game

ChillinDuke
01-06-2018, 09:36 PM
A loss to BC and NC State at this juncture would certainly qualify for pumping the breaks on National Championship aspirations.

Yes of course we'll watch and hope for improvement but at this point a cause for concern is more than warranted.

I guess? I mean it's hard to gauge the level of gravity you're placing on your statement.

I agree with CDu. People tend to have a lot of recency bias. These losses will be long forgotten if/when Duke adds a few more quality wins, especially on the road and/or in a row.

- Chillin

WVDUKEFAN
01-06-2018, 09:38 PM
Where's bolden?

CDu
01-06-2018, 09:39 PM
Where's bolden?

MCL sprain

dukelifer
01-06-2018, 09:41 PM
Gotta say...this team is really frustrating.

Just don't understand how the D can be so bad week in and week out. Kentucky is young year in and year out but there D is never at risk of falling out of the top 100 in kenpom.

Maybe the D clicks in the tourney but right now this team will have more than a few losses going into March Madness and could easily lose the opening weekend.

Then again they could win it all but man...just start playing some D.

Very frustrating to be sure

rsvman
01-06-2018, 09:41 PM
I would like to see Grayson more involved in the offense.

jipops
01-06-2018, 09:44 PM
This game already feels over

BlueandWhite
01-06-2018, 09:47 PM
I would like to see Grayson more involved in the offense.

As was just noted by Bilas a few minutes ago. Makes no sense to me at all.

Bigger issue, Duke’s defense is not good, period.

And there is no reason that Duke’s big men should be outplayed by Yurtseven of State. Looks like he’s now racked up his fourth foul...fortunate for us.

Kjeffrey
01-06-2018, 09:48 PM
I would like to see Grayson more involved in the offense.

Couldn't agree more.

dukelifer
01-06-2018, 09:49 PM
This game already feels over

Allen is absent- that is not a recipe for winning.

Sixthman
01-06-2018, 09:49 PM
Curious what we have been working on in practice.

CDu
01-06-2018, 09:50 PM
Allen needs to be more assertive. This a young team on the ropes. He is the vet. But he is being way too passive out there. Need him to guide these guys through the struggles.

Kjeffrey
01-06-2018, 09:51 PM
As was just noted by Bilas a few minutes ago. Makes no sense to me at all.

Bigger issue, Duke’s defense is not good, period.

And there is no reason that Duke’s big men should be outplayed by Yurtseven of State. Looks like he’s now racked up his fourth foul...fortunate for us.

To me they look tired or lost on defense. Either way K won't play the bench. I am not saying the bench players would be better but sometimes being taken out of a game has a positive impact on players.

Kjeffrey
01-06-2018, 09:53 PM
Allen needs to be more assertive. This a young team on the ropes. He is the vet. But he is being way too passive out there. Need him to guide these guys through the struggles.

He seems more passive tonight than other tight games this season. Has the crowd been getting on him? Can't figure out why he is not getting involved.

curtis325
01-06-2018, 10:00 PM
Free throw defense is terrible.

CDu
01-06-2018, 10:02 PM
Free throw defense is terrible.

Fouling the wrong guys.

chrishoke
01-06-2018, 10:02 PM
Yep, not enough offense from GA is the problem. LOL.

Sixthman
01-06-2018, 10:03 PM
We should own the boards down the stretch. Need a three.

curtis325
01-06-2018, 10:04 PM
We should own the boards down the stretch.

If State would just be so kind as to miss a few shots.

gocanes0506
01-06-2018, 10:09 PM
Ball game

curtis325
01-06-2018, 10:09 PM
Ball game

Nice win for State. ACC road games are always tough. Congrats PM97!

kshepinthehouse
01-06-2018, 10:10 PM
Duval has at least 7 turnovers. Maybe 8

chrishoke
01-06-2018, 10:10 PM
This team is historically bad on defense.

proelitedota
01-06-2018, 10:10 PM
Title for us guaranteed.

Sixthman
01-06-2018, 10:11 PM
Grayson Grayson Grayson Grayson Grayson

downeastdad
01-06-2018, 10:11 PM
If State would just be so kind as to miss a few shots.

Yeah, but...

Devilwin
01-06-2018, 10:13 PM
This team is underachieving at at alarming rate. Major, major disappointment..

fuse
01-06-2018, 10:13 PM
I just don’t understand our defense at all.

Coballs
01-06-2018, 10:13 PM
Last year repeating itself. We are not good.

wavedukefan70s
01-06-2018, 10:13 PM
I cut it off. Defense or lack of.smh

Hauerwas
01-06-2018, 10:14 PM
One and Done. We just gave up 90 spot to State. But keep recruiting these lottery picks K. What a joke.

BigZ
01-06-2018, 10:15 PM
Putting the done in one and done

dukelifer
01-06-2018, 10:15 PM
Bad night for Allen- maybe sick- Duval hobbling and State did not quit. Time to regroup. The team has not figured out what it will take to win in this league when you are the supposed big dog.

dukelion
01-06-2018, 10:15 PM
Well maybe they need a few of these to get them to play D.

Still.....embarrassing and disappointing to say the least. Especially since Allen as a senior was a no show tonight.

I officially hate the one and done era.

ChillinDuke
01-06-2018, 10:15 PM
Team just looked off all night. DeLaurier looked bad. Carter was all spun around on D. Allen had no offense run thru him and forced shots. Trevon was largely out of control.

I dunno. Just weird.

- Chillin

Devilwin
01-06-2018, 10:15 PM
Giving up 90 points a game in conference. That's horrendous..

jipops
01-06-2018, 10:16 PM
So when Duke had all that time off in December to work on defense, did they actually work on it or just talk about it the whole time? The coaching staff seems miffed. I have a hard time seeing this get any better.

barjwr
01-06-2018, 10:16 PM
Giving up 90 points a game in conference. That's horrendous..

Again.

kshepinthehouse
01-06-2018, 10:17 PM
We had an 11 point lead in the first half looking like we wanted to dominate.

dukelion
01-06-2018, 10:17 PM
Giving up 90 points a game in conference. That's horrendous..

The average giving up 90+ to all their conference foes.

Beyond horrendous.

subzero02
01-06-2018, 10:18 PM
I'd make them practice tonight... they need it. Lots of work to do before March.

dukelifer
01-06-2018, 10:20 PM
So when Duke had all that time off in December to work on defense, did they actually work on it or just talk about it the whole time? The coaching staff seems miffed. I have a hard time seeing this get any better.

It is perplexing. They just don't seem to make other teams work on O. Just so strange. But the game was in reach and they just did not execute. I enjoy watching Bagley. The rest of the team is playing like Freshman.

DUKIECB
01-06-2018, 10:20 PM
What's that old saying, live by the three die by the three... These days it's more like live by the freshman die by the freshmen.