This week in the ACC?

[Olympic Fan]

I can't find the thread for this week, but I wanted to post this news:

Georgia Tech is down 3 to 0-13 Coppin State at the half. The game is at home for the Jackets.

Coppin is 345 in KenPom.

Wow!

[brevity]

I can't find the thread for this week...

Clearly, pfrduke decided that Wofford Week should last more than 7 days.

[MChambers]

I can't find the thread for this week, but I wanted to post this news:

Georgia Tech is down 3 to 0-13 Coppin State at the half. The game is at home for the Jackets.

Coppin is 345 in KenPom.

Wow!

GT seems to have pulled it out, up by 12 with less than 2 minutes to go.

[Wheat/"/"/"]

UrinalCake asked me this basketball question in another thread that I didn't get a chance to respond to before it was shut down. I want to talk hoops so I'll respond here...

UnialCake wrote:

So here's an actual basketball question for our friend Wheat... from talking to my UNC acquaintances and also perusing IC, my feeling is that fans are unhappy with Roy's tendency to
- experiment with unusual lineups
- pull guys out of the game who are playing well and then give minutes to bench guys who aren't as good
- use the less talented bench players too much, rather than tightening the lineup

It's always fascinating to hear these complaints, because Duke fans of course complain that K doesn't use his bench enough, that he rides his starters for too long causing fatigue late in the game, that our defense suffers, and that the bench players don't get enough minutes and therefore transfer.

Anyways, how much do you think the lineup changes contributed to the loss? Should Roy have stuck with a tighter rotation even this early in the season and against a presumed weaker opponent at home? Or do you trust in his system which allows guys like Luke Maye to get minutes even as an overwhelmed freshman with more talented guys ahead of him, ultimately giving him the confidence to contribute later in the season?

My response:

UNC absolutely lost the Wofford game by Roy playing the bench too long. But that's how Roy coaches. He wasn't coaching just for that game. A tight starters + rotation would have been plenty to win that game, imo.

Roy wants his young guys to get in those tough situations and let them see and feel where they have to get better. It's a reason why he hates time outs too when teams go on runs. He wants them to have the experience of having to execute the offense under pressure and playing better defense. He believes that's best done in a real game environment more so than practice.

As for the multiple lineups. Roy believes anyone on the bench should be able to contribute when they are on the court. He challenges them and gives them that chance. I think it helps team harmony because the players know they will get a chance to prove themselves.

In that particular Wofford game, he misjudged the mountain that he left for his starters to climb. They still had 3 different opportunities to take the lead late if I recall correctly, but failed to convert. With Wofford playing well, they needed more time.

At any rate, I like how Roy coaches. I like watching players grow over their careers. And his results prove his players respond to his style.

[El_Diablo]

Results-wise, UNC’s starters were actually the worst overall lineup against Wofford, getting outscored by 6 during the times they were all on the court together (the team’s worst +/- lineup for the game).

[JasonEvans]

Results-wise, UNC’s starters were actually the worst overall lineup against Wofford, getting outscored by 6 during the times they were all on the court together (the team’s worst +/- lineup for the game).

Ssssshhh! Your facts are getting in the way of the established narrative. Please find alternate facts.

[PackMan97]

Details on Markell Johnson's suspension from NC State are starting to trickle in. He was arrested for felonious assault. The N&O article is short on details other than it happened in his hometown of Cleveland, OH and he is one of four accused.

http://www.newsobserver.com/sports/college/acc/nc-state/state-now/article191899559.html

Markell's attorney denied a rumor that he is seeking a transfer to Carolina where he would be eligible to play immediately and would receive a b.s. degree in criminal justice after writing a short paper regarding his court room experience.

[Wheat/"/"/"]

Results-wise, UNC’s starters were actually the worst overall lineup against Wofford, getting outscored by 6 during the times they were all on the court together (the team’s worst +/- lineup for the game).

How long were the starters on the floor together of the 40 minute game?

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

UrinalCake asked me this basketball question in another thread that I didn't get a chance to respond to before it was shut down. I want to talk hoops so I'll respond here...



*sigh* I warned everyone that talking PaperClassGate over there would end up with our favorite thread getting shut down. Hope you all are proud of yourselves. This is why we can't have nice things.

Wheat - you previously (and I thought laughably) explained away the close result of an UNC exhibition game exactly the same way, saying that Roy uses experimental lineups and little used players in such games to tweak his lineups. I thought this was absurb, as that isn't ant revolutionary coaching, as you suggest; Coach K's team goes from ten or eleven to seven every year asbthe season begins, but I digress.

Are you saying that Roy treated the Wofford game as an exhibition game? You are defending him with the same explanation.

Difficulty: show your work

[Wheat/"/"/"]

*sigh* I warned everyone that talking PaperClassGate over there would end up with our favorite thread getting shut down. Hope you all are proud of yourselves. This is why we can't have nice things.

Wheat - you previously (and I thought laughably) explained away the close result of an UNC exhibition game exactly the same way, saying that Roy uses experimental lineups and little used players in such games to tweak his lineups. I thought this was absurb, as that isn't ant revolutionary coaching, as you suggest; Coach K's team goes from ten or eleven to seven every year asbthe season begins, but I digress.

Are you saying that Roy treated the Wofford game as an exhibition game? You are defending him with the same explanation.

Difficulty: show your work

Show me where I ever said Roy's deep playing time of his bench and young players was "revolutionary"?
He just is what he is.

In fact, lots of coaches have that coaching style, and they often sustain surprising lossess as well that they may not have otherwise had they played their strongest lineup in these early season games. Later in the season, he will tighten things up, and losses will be because they were not good enough.

Some coaches, like coach K, like to consistently keep their best players on the floor early season and let practice and game performance define playing time. His results show it works for his teams.

I've never claimed Roy's stylye was better,it's just Roy's style.

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

Show me where I ever said Roy's deep playing time of his bench and young players was "revolutionary"?
He just is what he is.



"Revolutionary" was my own flourish, but you definitely said that it was somehow unique to toy with lineups and get the bench some run in preseason games, and the implication was that it was a plus not a minus.

I am poking you a bit, because you clearly are a glutton for punishment, following these discussions from thread to thread. But you didn't answer my actual question about whether Ol Roy treated Wofford as a December exhibition game, running experimental line ups in and out, perhaps not entertaining the posibility of a loss until too late.

[Wheat/"/"/"]

"Revolutionary" was my own flourish, but you definitely said that it was somehow unique to toy with lineups and get the bench some run in preseason games, and the implication was that it was a plus not a minus.

I am poking you a bit, because you clearly are a glutton for punishment, following these discussions from thread to thread. But you didn't answer my actual question about whether Ol Roy treated Wofford as a December exhibition game, running experimental line ups in and out, perhaps not entertaining the posibility of a loss until too late.

Show me where I ever implied he was "somehow unique"? That's your imagination getting away from you.

Roy treated the Wofford game like he does almost every pre conference game, by playing a deep bench to give the players experience.

He wanted to win that game, tried to win that game, and he was embarrassed by the loss.
But he knows a early season out of conference loss is not the end of the world and that games like that get his bench players attention on where they need to improve.

[OldPhiKap]

Can’t be pinned on Roy. Roy said that the players were “fat and happy” and didn’t take the game seriously enough. He even needed a daggum assistant to tell him after the daggum game that he couldn’t get his daggum players in for a daggum dawn practice because he is suddenly concerned about daggum NCAA rules.

It’s the player’s fault, see, not his.

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

Show me where I ever implied he was "somehow unique"? That's your imagination getting away from you.

Roy treated the Wofford game like he does almost every pre conference game, by playing a deep bench to give the players experience.

He wanted to win that game, tried to win that game, and he was embarrassed by the loss.
But he knows a early season out of conference loss is not the end of the world and that games like that get his bench players attention on where they need to improve.

I would, but all our lovely UNC threads have been locked, and I remember ribbing you for the implication at the time. I m disinterested in spending time searching, but it was earlier this season. Feel free to go look.

[Wheat/"/"/"]

Can’t be pinned on Roy. Roy said that the players were “fat and happy” and didn’t take the game seriously enough. He even needed a daggum assistant to tell him after the daggum game that he couldn’t get his daggum players in for a daggum dawn practice because he is suddenly concerned about daggum NCAA rules.

It’s the player’s fault, see, not his.

Roy is Roy. He is refreshingly honest with his thoughts to the media and has his own way of motivation for his players.

UNC is 12-2 after a challenging pre conference schedule. Solid, especially considering the loss of a projected starter, (Cam Johnson), for most of those games along with the injury to the back up PG Woods.

[Wheat/"/"/"]

I would, but all our lovely UNC threads have been locked, and I remember ribbing you for the implication at the time. I m disinterested in spending time searching, but it was earlier this season. Feel free to go look.

I don't need to look, it never happened. You just made assumptions about my comments and ran with them as fact.

The threads are available to cut and paste my comments if you can back it up.

[Dr. Rosenrosen]

UrinalCake asked me this basketball question in another thread that I didn't get a chance to respond to before it was shut down. I want to talk hoops so I'll respond here...

UnialCake wrote:


My response:

UNC absolutely lost the Wofford game by Roy playing the bench too long. But that's how Roy coaches. He wasn't coaching just for that game. A tight starters + rotation would have been plenty to win that game, imo.

Roy wants his young guys to get in those tough situations and let them see and feel where they have to get better. It's a reason why he hates time outs too when teams go on runs. He wants them to have the experience of having to execute the offense under pressure and playing better defense. He believes that's best done in a real game environment more so than practice.

As for the multiple lineups. Roy believes anyone on the bench should be able to contribute when they are on the court. He challenges them and gives them that chance. I think it helps team harmony because the players know they will get a chance to prove themselves.

In that particular Wofford game, he misjudged the mountain that he left for his starters to climb. They still had 3 different opportunities to take the lead late if I recall correctly, but failed to convert. With Wofford playing well, they needed more time.

At any rate, I like how Roy coaches. I like watching players grow over their careers. And his results prove his players respond to his style.
Your "refreshingly honest" coach said none of these things in the post-game presser. Is he saying these things in some other venue?

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

I don't need to look, it never happened. You just made assumptions about my comments and ran with them as fact.

The threads are available to cut and paste my comments if you can back it up.

/sigh\

I was ribbing you then, I am ribbing you now. I can't believe I dug deep enough into this to learn how to quote from threads that are gone. I hate you for that, when all of this is just a lark.

From the long ago closed thread:


Roy is not known to sacrifice playing depth for exhibition game wins, or even early season OOC games. He's in teaching mode now....


Dude, Wheat, get for real. Regardless of the program or coach, they are all in "teaching" mode in preseason (look at some of the lineups K tossed out yesterday) and they all also want to win.

Roy is a good coach, but he isn't special because he tweaks his roster in exhibition games.

Here's the link to the posts, (http://forums.dukebasketballreport.com/forums/showthread.php?40609-Heels-hoops-discussion-17-18-no-unc-athletics-scandal-discussions&p=1011169#post1011169) if anyone cares - I'm sure they don't.

Again, I'm just joking with you, because you seem to think that Roy's the only coach who teaches/coaches/tweaks lineups, and that it somehow explains away early season struggles.

Lighten up, buddy. You are on a rival's message board. Your school's scandal is being protected by the mods like a NFL ref trying to protect the QB. Even if you are on pristine behavior, we are allowed to have a little fun with you.

And, I'm a little saucy because the best thread of the month got closed right after you showed up. Happy Holidays, Wheat!

Go ACC! Go Duke!

[DukieTiger]

Show me where I ever implied he was "somehow unique"? That's your imagination getting away from you.

Roy treated the Wofford game like he does almost every pre conference game, by playing a deep bench to give the players experience.

He wanted to win that game, tried to win that game, and he was embarrassed by the loss.
But he knows a early season out of conference loss is not the end of the world and that games like that get his bench players attention on where they need to improve.

Joel Berry and Luke Maye both played 35+ minutes against Wofford. UNC is right at the national average for “bench minutes” this year, so I think the talk of playing a deep bench is overblown just a bit.

They lost to Wofford playing their best players “Duke-like” minutes. It wasn’t because Roy was playing a deep bench, it was because their starters didn’t play so well.

[OldPhiKap]

Wofford 79, UNC 75 -- Box score:

https://www.sports-reference.com/cbb/boxscores/2017-12-20-21-north-carolina.html

Maye -- 36 minutes
Berry -- 35 minutes
Williams -- 32 minutes
Brooks -- 24 minutes
Pinson -- 24 minutes
-------
Johnson -- 17 minutes
all others - 10 or less (shooting a combined 1-5, scoring 4 points, picking up 4 fouls)

As others have pointed out, this loss is not due to Roy developing a bench. It has more to do, I would posit, by Roy failing to call a time out when Wofford made its runs to actually teach his players and to get them focused. y'know -- coach.

[wobatus]

Joel Berry and Luke Maye both played 35+ minutes against Wofford. UNC is right at the national average for “bench minutes” this year, so I think the talk of playing a deep bench is overblown just a bit.

They lost to Wofford playing their best players “Duke-like” minutes. It wasn’t because Roy was playing a deep bench, it was because their starters didn’t play so well.

Adrian Atkinson had an article about UNC's use of the Maye-Pinson-Johnson-Williams-Berry lineup. It's only been 11 minutes all year, since Johnson just came back. Against Wofford it was +7 (19-12) over 7 minutes late in 2nd half. Against Ohio State it was +13 (16-3) in 4 minutes.

Tiny sample but apropos of this discussion. Small ball lineup. Has strengths and weaknesses. Would have a hard time stopping Bagley/Carter. Maybe vice versa.

It's not exactly rocket science that Roy uses more of his roster, generally speaking, and K less. They both tighten up as the season goes on, but K even more so. It isn't a talent disparity. It isn't chopped liver on the end of Duke's bench. Last year injuries also came into play. Boeheim uses fewer players than K. Ham uses more than Roy down at FSU. There are pros and cons to either method.

Last year's minutes per game:

Duke UNC

Kennard 35.5 Jackson 32
Tatum 33.3 Berry 30.4
Jones 32.9 Meeks 24.3
Jefferson 29.7 Pinson 23.8 (21 games)
Allen 29.6 Williams 23.7 (26 games)
Jackson 24.9 Hicks 23.3
Jeter 14.9 (16 games) Britt 19
Giles 11.5 (26 games) Bradley 14.6
Vrankovic 7.8 (13 games) Maye 14.1
Delaurier 7.2 (12 games) Robinson 7.8
Bolden 6.5 (24 games) Woods 7.7 (and he played all 40 games)

UNC played 11 guys 250 minutes or more. Duke 7. Cherry-picked cutoff, since if it was 200 minutes it'd be 11-8. A lot of it is injuries, but some is preference.

Boeheim, you gotta love it: in 2016 he plays 5 guys 30+ minutes (Cooney 36.4 and Gbinije 37.9). For the season. And basically plays 7 guys all year. But he got them to a Final 4. This year in a home win against Maryland, in November, Howard and Brisset, a frosh, go 40 each. Ty Battle, with an injured back, goes 37. He plays 7 guys basically, other than Geno Thorpe, who plays 4 minutes. Thorpe, a grad transfer, promptly quits the team. His scrub minutes replaced by Howard Washington. Who plays 1 minute against UConn and Georgetown. Brisset and Battle played 45 minutes against Georgetown. No way the nose-picker is going down with less than his best players going until they drop, and even then. Ironically, last year he said in pre-season he thought it was his deepest team. And he did spread minutes around a bit comparatively. But they weren't all that good.

Hamilton played 11 guys 10+ minutes a game last year, and 12 guys played 8 or more minutes (the 12th guy being PJ Savoy). He did have some really good players, but perhaps the difference between say the 4th and 12th best isn't as high.

Anyway, against Wofford Roy played the youngsters for a stretch because the seniors were tossing it away (Pinson 5 TOVs). K has made similar substitutions as a lesson to starters. Wofford played great, but didn't shoot crazy lights out. They just beat UNC. Jackson in particular manhandled UNC's front line. That was more a takeaway, along with TOs, than anything else.

Sorry if this is reviving something meant to be dead.

As far as Georgia Tech, they seem in disarray since that whole thing with Pastner's buddy throwing him and the program under the bus. Tough because he turned the program around somewhat last year. Plus they have had some injuries. But at this point it goes beyond people being out or hurt.

[wobatus]

You'd better have evidence of this alleged "failing to call a timeout." This is no place for jokes or ribbing of our rival or their fans.

Even that is fairly telling, though (more a response to prior post).

Duke minutes against BC (admittedly a more important conference game) versus UNC's Wofford loss:

Bagley 40 (Maye 36)
Allen 38 (Berry 35)
Trent 35 (Williams 32)
Duval 31 (Brooks 24)
Carter 29 (Pinson 24)
Delaurier 17 (Johnson 17)
Bolden 8 (Platek 10)
O'Connell 2 (Manley 8)
Goldwire 0 (Felton 5)
_________ (Huffman 2).

Likely Woods would have had minutes if he was healthy.

It doesn't look like Roy was trying to teach a lesson but wanted to win. But still it seems he does play his starters less and his bench more. 42 to 27 minutes.

Hell, Ol' Huckleberry played his bench more in the Final 4, 44 minutes against Gonzaga, 49 against Oregon. He even played Stillman White 5 minutes against Kentucky in the Elite 8. So it looks like he was trying hard against Wofford. Bet he wishes Tony Bradley had stuck around.

[JasonEvans]

I think David Padgett's odds of keeping the Louisville job are getting slim at this point. The Cards are getting housed by Kentucky right now, 60-38 midway through the 2nd half. Ouch!

The Cards were supposed to be a top 10 team in the preseason. They now have losses to Purdue (KenPom #5), Kentucky (#19) and Seton Hall (#20). No shame in any of those losses, but their best win is over Indiana (#90). In fact, the Hoosiers are the only top 100 team they have beaten. They are #33 in Kenpom and will probably drop several spots as a result of this game. Their RPI numbers are even worse than Kenpom. Louisville does not have a single top 100 RPI victory. Their margin of error, as ACC play starts, is pretty thin.

-Jason "Would making the tourney as a #8 or worse seed be much of an accomplishment for Padgett?" Evans

[MartyClark]

I think David Padgett's odds of keeping the Louisville job are getting slim at this point. The Cards are getting housed by Kentucky right now, 60-38 midway through the 2nd half. Ouch!

The Cards were supposed to be a top 10 team in the preseason. They now have losses to Purdue (KenPom #5), Kentucky (#19) and Seton Hall (#20). No shame in any of those losses, but their best win is over Indiana (#90). In fact, the Hoosiers are the only top 100 team they have beaten. They are #33 in Kenpom and will probably drop several spots as a result of this game. Their RPI numbers are even worse than Kenpom. Louisville does not have a single top 100 RPI victory. Their margin of error, as ACC play starts, is pretty thin.

-Jason "Would making the tourney as a #8 or worse seed be much of an accomplishment for Padgett?" Evans

Louisville got thumped. They gave up many easy baskets, didn't see much of that when Pitino was in charge. They abandoned their inside game early and took way too many long shots.

One of my friends has some connections with the Louisville program. He described Padgett as a "safe and economical choice". Padgett seems like a good guy. I think Louisville is willing to cut him some slack but he needs to win some ACC games.

[Olympic Fan]

You want an example of hypocrisy in college sports?

I just visited Rupp's Rafters and the lead item was a thread where Kentucky fans are laughing at Louisville fans for reacting to their loss today by blaming the refs.

No word yet on whether or not any Cardinal fans have sent the refs death threats.

[OldPhiKap]

I think David Padgett's odds of keeping the Louisville job are getting slim at this point. The Cards are getting housed by Kentucky right now, 60-38 midway through the 2nd half. Ouch!

The Cards were supposed to be a top 10 team in the preseason. They now have losses to Purdue (KenPom #5), Kentucky (#19) and Seton Hall (#20). No shame in any of those losses, but their best win is over Indiana (#90). In fact, the Hoosiers are the only top 100 team they have beaten. They are #33 in Kenpom and will probably drop several spots as a result of this game. Their RPI numbers are even worse than Kenpom. Louisville does not have a single top 100 RPI victory. Their margin of error, as ACC play starts, is pretty thin.

-Jason "Would making the tourney as a #8 or worse seed be much of an accomplishment for Padgett?" Evans

Getting thumped by the 'Cats will not go over well. Largest blowout in that series since 1999 apparently: https://www.seccountry.com/kentucky/kentucky-louisville-updates-score-stats

They host Pitt Tuesday, then go to Clemson and to FSU. A beatdown like they just took will either bring the team together, or else things can start unraveling fast. There's nowhere to hide in the conference this year, and when there's blood in the water the going can get really really difficult.

[NSDukeFan]

Getting thumped by the 'Cats will not go over well. Largest blowout in that series since 1999 apparently: https://www.seccountry.com/kentucky/kentucky-louisville-updates-score-stats

They host Pitt Tuesday, then go to Clemson and to FSU. A beatdown like they just took will either bring the team together, or else things can start unraveling fast. There's nowhere to hide in the conference this year, and when there's blood in the water the going can get really really difficult.

I agree with your main point, but I think they will be able to hide against Pitt.

[OldPhiKap]

I agree with your main point, but I think they will be able to hide against Pitt.

Pitt hosts Miami at 4:00 today, which should be a good measuring stick.

[wobatus]

Louisville got thumped. They gave up many easy baskets, didn't see much of that when Pitino was in charge. They abandoned their inside game early and took way too many long shots.

One of my friends has some connections with the Louisville program. He described Padgett as a "safe and economical choice". Padgett seems like a good guy. I think Louisville is willing to cut him some slack but he needs to win some ACC games.

You never know. Virginia lost to VCU, Wisconsin and Green Bay in 2013-14, then got pasted by 35 by Tennessee in their last OOC game, and went 16-2 ACC and swept the regular season and ACC tournament. I don’t see Louisville doing that but they could bounce back.

[OldPhiKap]

You never know. Virginia lost to VCU, Wisconsin and Green Bay in 2013-14, then got pasted by 35 by Tennessee in their last OOC game, and went 16-2 ACC and swept the regular season and ACC tournament. I don’t see Louisville doing that but they could bounce back.

True, although Louisville has a ton of off-court turmoil and an interim coach. They certainly have enough talent to compete with and beat anyone.

Looking at their schedule, they have UNC at home but Duke, Miami and Notre Dame on the road. Home/away series with UVA and FSU. Schedule not helpful for them.

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

I don't know where we stand with talking or not about UNC, but Wake is giving them a game. We could have another fun loss thread if we are lucky.

[timmy c]

I don't know where we stand with talking or not about UNC, but Wake is giving them a game. We could have another fun loss thread if we are lucky.

Maye I recommend the jinx thread?

[PackMan97]

The Tigers handled my Pack pretty easily today. We hung for a half, but basically got blown out the second half. Our shooting is atrocious. Without Markell Johnson, whom I fear (based on gut feeling) his last game with the Pack, we just don't have that defensive stopper or physical point guard we need to compete in the ACC. (and that's not a knock on Beverly who is surpassing all expectations, but more of a game manager than a game changer).

At this point with Wake, BC and other scrubs of the league looking strong...it could be a very long season :/

{edit}I dislike Wake today. 9f and posting guidelines an all that.{/edit}

[Olympic Fan]

Interesting day -- six ACC games Saturday. The favored team won all six, but three of them (FSU at Duke, Wake at UNC and BC at Virginia) were much closer than expected. Even Georgia Tech at Notre Dame was closer than I expected.

The league is going to be very competitive this season.

One comment about the Wake loss -- Danny Manning has done some good things at Wake. I think he's one of the best big man coaches around. But he's got to be the worst end-game coach I've ever seen. Up two in UNC with the ball and just under two minutes left, his team passes around the perimeter for almost 30 seconds, then jacks a 3 ... gets the offensive rebound, runs another 25 seconds off without even looing to drive or pass inside, then hacked another contested 3 ... UNC scores to tie the game and Wake brings it down, and does it again. After UNC scored to go up two with nine seconds left, Wake inbounds to Woods, who pushes it up, then with like 4-5 seconds left, pulls up to feet short of the 3-point arc and misses a wild 3.

Wake botched the end game against Georgia Southern earlier this year. Don't forget the 10 point lead they blew in the final 3 minutes against Duke this year. They also collapsed in the final two minutes of what was a close game at Tennessee.

Just a bad job.

And as for State ... I'm beginning to wonder why Keatts doesn't reign in Al Freeman, who continues to take the Pack out of games with his undisciplined shooting.

[richardjackson199]

Interesting day -- six ACC games Saturday. The favored team won all six, but three of them (FSU at Duke, Wake at UNC and BC at Virginia) were much closer than expected. Even Georgia Tech at Notre Dame was closer than I expected.

The league is going to be very competitive this season.

One comment about the Wake loss -- Danny Manning has done some good things at Wake. I think he's one of the best big man coaches around. But he's got to be the worst end-game coach I've ever seen. Up two in UNC with the ball and just under two minutes left, his team passes around the perimeter for almost 30 seconds, then jacks a 3 ... gets the offensive rebound, runs another 25 seconds off without even looing to drive or pass inside, then hacked another contested 3 ... UNC scores to tie the game and Wake brings it down, and does it again. After UNC scored to go up two with nine seconds left, Wake inbounds to Woods, who pushes it up, then with like 4-5 seconds left, pulls up to feet short of the 3-point arc and misses a wild 3.

Wake botched the end game against Georgia Southern earlier this year. Don't forget the 10 point lead they blew in the final 3 minutes against Duke this year. They also collapsed in the final two minutes of what was a close game at Tennessee.

Just a bad job.

And as for State ... I'm beginning to wonder why Keatts doesn't reign in Al Freeman, who continues to take the Pack out of games with his undisciplined shooting.

Agree. Wake also got the ball at the end of the UNCheat game with an easy opportunity to go 2 for 1. It never crossed their mind as they were passing the ball around the perimeter instead of attacking for a good shot early enough to force UNCheat to give them ball back for plenty of time for good last shot.

[CDu]

Agree. Wake also got the ball at the end of the UNCheat game with an easy opportunity to go 2 for 1. It never crossed their mind as they were passing the ball around the perimeter instead of attacking for a good shot early enough to force UNCheat to give them ball back for plenty of time for good last shot.

Eh, they only got it with 51 seconds left. While NBA teams are capable of running a good quick set in about 10 seconds, that is not really true in college. Trying to get a 2 for 1 there would have meant playing for two 10-15 second possessions. So I think it reasonable to try to get a good look. As it was, Wake got a foul drawn AND still got a 2 for 1 with 13 seconds left anyway. The problem was that they missed the front of a 1-and-1, and then shot a rushed, long 3 on their last real possession.

[Rich]

Interesting day -- six ACC games Saturday. The favored team won all six, but three of them (FSU at Duke, Wake at UNC and BC at Virginia) were much closer than expected. Even Georgia Tech at Notre Dame was closer than I expected.

The league is going to be very competitive this season.

One comment about the Wake loss -- Danny Manning has done some good things at Wake. I think he's one of the best big man coaches around. But he's got to be the worst end-game coach I've ever seen. Up two in UNC with the ball and just under two minutes left, his team passes around the perimeter for almost 30 seconds, then jacks a 3 ... gets the offensive rebound, runs another 25 seconds off without even looing to drive or pass inside, then hacked another contested 3 ... UNC scores to tie the game and Wake brings it down, and does it again. After UNC scored to go up two with nine seconds left, Wake inbounds to Woods, who pushes it up, then with like 4-5 seconds left, pulls up to feet short of the 3-point arc and misses a wild 3.

Wake botched the end game against Georgia Southern earlier this year. Don't forget the 10 point lead they blew in the final 3 minutes against Duke this year. They also collapsed in the final two minutes of what was a close game at Tennessee.

Just a bad job.

And as for State ... I'm beginning to wonder why Keatts doesn't reign in Al Freeman, who continues to take the Pack out of games with his undisciplined shooting.

I'm not sure I agree to put our game in the same category as the other two. Even though it was at home, we were playing a top 25 team. It was a close game, but we did end up winning by 7. What was the line?