Will Grayson Allen's jersey be in the rafters?

[Rich]

During last night's broadcast, Jason Capel, who was doing the color commentary for the game, made a somewhat definitive remark that Grayson Allen's jersey would be in the rafters at the end of this season. Now I know we've had a lot of discussion about what it takes to get a jersey retired and there seem to be some unwritten guidelines based on historical precedent. How do those factors weigh in favor or against GA? Is he a shoo-in or just a maybe at this point? GA already has a National Championship so what else does he need in terms of statistics or personal awards? I figure we have 10 days until the next game so might as well waste some time and engage in some idle speculation.

[Wander]

It's a maybe. But I'll speculate that, given how much college basketball has changed since our last jersey retirement, the "rules" for Duke jersey retirement will change slightly too. Grayson winning ACC POY (and graduating) will be enough, instead of having to win a national award.

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

It's a maybe. But I'll speculate that, given how much college basketball has changed since our last jersey retirement, the "rules" for Duke jersey retirement will change slightly too. Grayson winning ACC POY (and graduating) will be enough, instead of having to win a national award.

Also, there are lots of opportunities for both good and bad in the next three months. I would say it is still in play.

[mr. synellinden]

I feel pretty strongly that he has no chance unless he wins NPOY or he leads Duke to another title.

Let's say he is 1st team all-ACC and 2nd team AA, how is his career distinguished from players like Scheyer, Nolan Smith, Singler, Duhon, etc. He is one of the Duke greats and in this era a rare four year player who was a NPOY contender for three seasons. But in my view he has has not had a jersey retirement career unless during the next three months he is the best player in college basketball. I just can't see it as of now.

[arnie]

During last night's broadcast, Jason Capel, who was doing the color commentary for the game, made a somewhat definitive remark that Grayson Allen's jersey would be in the rafters at the end of this season. Now I know we've had a lot of discussion about what it takes to get a jersey retired and there seem to be some unwritten guidelines based on historical precedent. How do those factors weigh in favor or against GA? Is he a shoo-in or just a maybe at this point? GA already has a National Championship so what else does he need in terms of statistics or personal awards? I figure we have 10 days until the next game so might as well waste some time and engage in some idle speculation.

I heard the same remark - and he seemed positive that Grayson’s jersey would be in the rafters. Maybe Jason is confused and thinks Duke hangs a multitude of jerseys similar to the Holes in the nosedome.

IMHO, the jersey isn’t retired unless we win the Nat Championship or he’s national player of the year. The Singler shadow seems to be in the way.

[duke79]

I feel pretty strongly that he has no chance unless he wins NPOY or he leads Duke to another title.

Let's say he is 1st team all-ACC and 2nd team AA, how is his career distinguished from players like Scheyer, Nolan Smith, Singler, Duhon, etc. He is one of the Duke greats and in this era a rare four year player who was a NPOY contender for three seasons. But in my view he has has not had a jersey retirement career unless during the next three months he is the best player in college basketball. I just can't see it as of now.

Agree with you here. No doubt he's had a very solid college career but, IMHO, not quite a "jersey retiring" (by Duke's standards) career (at least not yet). I also agree that he would have to have a stellar remainder of the season and, probably, lead Duke to another title to be in the running for the jersey retirement.

[budwom]

yet another example of why I love the mute button. Jason Capel's opinion on anything is not required. Ever.

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

yet another example of why I love the mute button. Jason Capel's opinion on anything is not required. Ever.

Really? Are we dogging him out because of college, or do you really dislike his commentary? I find him to be one of the sharper young guys on tv.

[weezie]

Really? Are we dogging him out because of college, or do you really dislike his commentary? I find him to be one of the sharper young guys on tv.


Well, hhhmmm. I'm all for dogging him for his kolege but he isn't the absolute worst fellow on the teevee. "Sharp" might be pushing it but he is better than awful when the game is a blow out. And, oh well, he loves his brother.
I guess he can have a smidge of slack until the light blue bleating begins and then punt his behind on out of there.

But to the thread topic on Grayson's jersey: it's going up. I'll be very happy to see that smile, too.

[Dukehky]

Grayson's jersey won't be in the rafters.

He won't have won a national player of the year, and it looks unlikely that he will be a first team all American. Even if he wins two national titles, one of them, yes he was a hero in the game, but he still only scored like 17 points. The other players who won two were Hill (went to 3 finals, and 1 as a freshman where he wasn't AS integral, but he did more than G), Laettner, Hurley. Enough said there. Thomas Hill and Brian Davis are not as good as Grayson, but cumulatively, probably contributed as much as Grayson would have should he win two, and their numbers aren't up there.

Also, winning 2 national titles is not one of the pre reqs for getting the jersey retired. It's a significant, INDIVIDUAL national achievement, national recognition, etc.

If Nolan (national champ and 1st team all American in 2011) and Kyle's jerseys aren't retired, it's unlikely that Grayson's will be, unless he goes absolutely bonkers and wins the NPOY. If that happens, I don't think this team reaches it's potential, actually. Also, media darling Trae Young has probably has the inside track on that bad boy. Luke Maye is having a better statistical season than G as well (he is not better, just saying statistically, more points and rebounds).

I think the fact that we have so few really good players stick around for 4 years makes a lot of us want to give them a little extra "thank you." However, there are lots of GREAT Duke players who stayed four years and whose jerseys aren't retired. Chris Carrawell, Carlos Boozer, Mike Dunleavy (I think all of them have graduated at this point), Nolan, Kyle, Scheyer, Wojo (who won DPOY), Mark Alarie, Gene Banks, Spanarkel. The list goes on. Being a really, really good player who played all 4 years is not sufficient at Duke to get your jersey retired.

[sagegrouse]

I feel pretty strongly that he has no chance unless he wins NPOY or he leads Duke to another title.

Let's say he is 1st team all-ACC and 2nd team AA, how is his career distinguished from players like Scheyer, Nolan Smith, Singler, Duhon, etc. He is one of the Duke greats and in this era a rare four year player who was a NPOY contender for three seasons. But in my view he has has not had a jersey retirement career unless during the next three months he is the best player in college basketball. I just can't see it as of now.

There is this opinion, which others also hold. But I happen to disagree. What Grayson has going for him -- an incredible Final Four in 2015, and all-FF team; nearly consensus 2nd Team A-A in 2016 ( would have been for sure except for the two on-court incidents); plus, whatever he achieves this year. I think first or second-team All-American (consensus) may well lead to jersey retirement, with a FF or NC making it that much more likely.

re: comparisons
Duhon was never a consensus 2nd team A-A..
Nor was Singler (although Kyle's career stats are eye-popping).
Nolan was a 1st team consensus A-A in 2011 and in no other year.
Scheyer was consensus 2nd team A-A in 2010 and in no other year.
To be sure, all have rings and Duhon has another FF to boot.

The person with superior quals is Bob Verga, who was consensus 2nd team in 1966 and consensus 1st team in 1967. Always been a mystery, except that it would have had to happen 25-30 years later, when Heyman's and Mullins' jerseys were hoisted, 'cuz Eddie Cameron would not allow jersey retirement.**

Kindly,
Sage Grouse
** Cameron wuz in the tank for Dick Groat, who was A-A in both basketball and baseball.

[DukieInBrasil]

Even if Grayson maintains his current level of play statistically and Duke wins Natty #6 he won't and shouldn't have his jersey retired. If Grayson ups his level of play, wins Natty #6 (or not) and wins NPOY then he probably will. If Grayson ups his level of play, wins Natty #6 along with MOP, and is 1st-team AA, 1st-team All-ACC, then he'd be somewhat likely to get his jersey retired.
One thing that has never been mentioned in retirement qualifications is 1st-team Academic All-American, which Grayson has been on the 2nd team as a So. but i couldn't find any mention of Academic AA status from last year. If he is named 1st team Academic All-American and other accomplishments short of NPOY or 1st team AA, but also gets a Natty, would that be enough? It'd be nice to think so, but i find it somewhat unlikely.

[JasonEvans]

The fact that we are having a debate and are unsure of the answer -- plenty of folks on both sides -- tells me this ain't happening. I don;'t think there has been a single jersey retirement where the decision was not almost automatic and obvious. I recall a few yes back we had a pretty big debate on the old DBR Boards about Trajan Langdon and jersey retirement. That never happened and I think this one won't either...

...Unless Grayson ups his game even more in the final few months and leads Duke to another national title. Only then could I see the conversation tilting his direction in the way that indicates jersey retirement is likely.

[El_Diablo]

Grayson's jersey won't be in the rafters.

He won't have won a national player of the year, and it looks unlikely that he will be a first team all American. Even if he wins two national titles, one of them, yes he was a hero in the game, but he still only scored like 17 points. The other players who won two were Hill (went to 3 finals, and 1 as a freshman where he wasn't AS integral, but he did more than G), Laettner, Hurley. Enough said there. Thomas Hill and Brian Davis are not as good as Grayson, but cumulatively, probably contributed as much as Grayson would have should he win two, and their numbers aren't up there.

Also, winning 2 national titles is not one of the pre reqs for getting the jersey retired. It's a significant, INDIVIDUAL national achievement, national recognition, etc.

If Nolan (national champ and 1st team all American in 2011) and Kyle's jerseys aren't retired, it's unlikely that Grayson's will be, unless he goes absolutely bonkers and wins the NPOY. If that happens, I don't think this team reaches it's potential, actually. Also, media darling Trae Young has probably has the inside track on that bad boy. Luke Maye is having a better statistical season than G as well (he is not better, just saying statistically, more points and rebounds).

I think the fact that we have so few really good players stick around for 4 years makes a lot of us want to give them a little extra "thank you." However, there are lots of GREAT Duke players who stayed four years and whose jerseys aren't retired. Chris Carrawell, Carlos Boozer, Mike Dunleavy (I think all of them have graduated at this point), Nolan, Kyle, Scheyer, Wojo (who won DPOY), Mark Alarie, Gene Banks, Spanarkel. The list goes on. Being a really, really good player who played all 4 years is not sufficient at Duke to get your jersey retired.

Neither Boozer nor Dunleavy stayed four years.

[Dukehky]

Neither Boozer nor Dunleavy stayed four years.

Don't have to stay four years. Have to graduate. Jason Williams stayed 3 years and his jersey is up there.

I THINK boozer and dunleavy have both graduated since leaving Duke.

[OldPhiKap]

hasnt every retiree been a National POY or National Defensive POY?

I love Grayson. But I would say it is a long shot —and I’m being optimistic on his behalf. Not sure he is in contention for First-team AA.

I think Jason Evans’ point is right — even among DBR there would be a broad consensus if the answer was in the affirmative.

[CDu]

hasnt every retiree been a National POY or National Defensive POY?

I love Grayson. But I would say it is a long shot —and I’m being optimistic on his behalf.

I think Jason Evans’ point is right — even among DBR there would be a broad consensus if the answer was in the affirmative.

No, not every retiree has been a NPoY or NDPoY. Hurley didn’t do either. Neither did Mullins or Gminski.

[Troublemaker]

At current usage rates, he has no chance at NPOY. (And I don't think Duke's changing there. Grayson is sacrificing usage this season for the betterment of the team).

So he'd have to be the main hero of a national championship run, which might allow sentimentality to carry the day. And even then, it's no lock.

[Ultrarunner]

The fact that we are having a debate and are unsure of the answer -- plenty of folks on both sides -- tells me this ain't happening. I don;'t think there has been a single jersey retirement where the decision was not almost automatic and obvious. I recall a few yes back we had a pretty big debate on the old DBR Boards about Trajan Langdon and jersey retirement. That never happened and I think this one won't either...

...Unless Grayson ups his game even more in the final few months and leads Duke to another national title. Only then could I see the conversation tilting his direction in the way that indicates jersey retirement is likely.

I don't think that Grayson will post numbers that wow people as there is so much talent up and down the roster. Another factor is the negative press he received which will hurt in national voting. That said, I think there is another possibility. It isn't quantifiable, but if Grayson proves to be an exceptional leader by K's standards, I could see it. It would mean a break of established criteria, but may fit our new 1&D culture.

No saying it is likely, but possible.

[El_Diablo]

Don't have to stay four years. Have to graduate. Jason Williams stayed 3 years and his jersey is up there.

I THINK boozer and dunleavy have both graduated since leaving Duke.

I was just responding to the part where you said they stayed four years, not implying that it was a requirement.

[JasonEvans]

It would mean a break of established criteria, but may fit our new 1&D culture.

I don't think we want to let a culture change in the way kids move to the NBA (and how they fit in at Duke) affect our general criteria for jersey retirement. If the culture of rushing to the NBA means no one is able to achieve the standards for jersey retirement, so be it. I would rather we keep standards in place than open the massive Pandora's box of changing the standards in a meaningful kind of way.

[ipatent]

Not unless he wins NPOY, and even then it would be close. Too many more qualified players from the past ahead of him.

[Wander]

I don't think we want to let a culture change in the way kids move to the NBA (and how they fit in at Duke) affect our general criteria for jersey retirement.

Why not? We've already let the culture change affect every single other part of our program. The way we recruit and play basketball is more meaningful than guidelines for retiring jerseys, and those two things have already undergone massive transformation.

I do think graduation should be a hard rule, so I'm not suggesting we start retiring our good OAD players or anything like that. But why is adjusting the other guidelines (which aren't even rules to begin with, as CDu notes) so terrible? Letting guys like Kyle Singler, Nolan Smith, and Grayson Allen seriously contend for jersey retirement doesn't seem so awful to me.

By the way, this is just anecdotal, but I do remember some debate being had over the jersey retirement of Shelden Williams.

[Ultrarunner]

I don't think we want to let a culture change in the way kids move to the NBA (and how they fit in at Duke) affect our general criteria for jersey retirement. If the culture of rushing to the NBA means no one is able to achieve the standards for jersey retirement, so be it. I would rather we keep standards in place than open the massive Pandora's box of changing the standards in a meaningful kind of way.

Agreed, which is why I consider it a bare possibility.

I'd rather see Grayson go nuts for the ACC/NCAA tournament games the way he did against MSU and earn MVP status in both. That might be enough to put him over the top and it probably would be good news for the team, too.

[OldPhiKap]

No, not every retiree has been a NPoY or NDPoY. Hurley didn’t do either. Neither did Mullins or Gminski.

Thanks. Even then, though, Hurley retired with the all-time assist record. G Man held the school record for career points, rebounds AND blocked shots (wow). Mullins’ jersey was retired 30 years after he finished college so don’t have a lot to add to him. He was, however, ACC POY and a three-time first team all-ACC.

Ultimately, though, Grayson could graduate as a two-time National Champ. There’s a special place at Duke for that, although it might be in the Hall of Champions (or whatever it’s being called these days) and not the rafters. Heck, we’re already unretiring numbers! (35)

[nmduke2001]

Many unwritten rules, but if Coach K wants GA in the rafters, GA will be in the rafters. Honestly, it would not surprise me if it happens.

[flyingdutchdevil]

Many unwritten rules, but if Coach K wants GA in the rafters, GA will be in the rafters. Honestly, it would not surprise me if it happens.

It would surprise the hell out of me. Smith, Scheyer, Singler, Cook... all amazing players who won natties and graduated and none are in the rafters.

[brevity]

Many unwritten rules, but if Coach K wants GA in the rafters, GA will be in the rafters. Honestly, it would not surprise me if it happens.

There it is. We've had three years of evidence pointing to one conclusion: Coach K is all-in on Grayson. Make of that what you will.

[-jk]

There it is. We've had three years of evidence pointing to one conclusion: Coach K is all-in on Grayson. Make of that what you will.

And a second natty, with Grayson as captain, would be awesome! And K would agree: two-time natty? Really? Done!

-jk

[BigWayne]

Really? Are we dogging him out because of college, or do you really dislike his commentary? I find him to be one of the sharper young guys on tv.

I can't stand Jason Capel as a commentator and came to that conclusion with no bias whatsoever. I didn't recognize him in either game I have listened to him do and was wondering who were these crappy announcers we got assigned because we were playing a weak team. Then at some point they showed him on the screen with his name below him. Otherwise I wouldn't have known it was him until he started talking about his brother.

[porkpa]

I'm a betting man and I'd be willing to take anybody's action. I'd bet that Grayson will be up there in the rafters. The only caveat I'd add is that no further unseemly incidents take place.

[budwom]

Really? Are we dogging him out because of college, or do you really dislike his commentary? I find him to be one of the sharper young guys on tv.

Did you learn a single thing from him you did not already know? As a general rule the mute button rules for all but the most amazing commentators, of whom there are precious few (Bob Knight used to be one of them).

[uh_no]

this comes up for every senior that is reasonably good, and the answer isn't any different here.

if he wins a national award or gets some national recognition? yes
If he "just" wins a national title? no.

team awards are for team accomplishments.


at his current rate, he has no shot at even first team all american. that's not retirement quality.

unless K drastically changes his requirement for some sort of individual national award/record, then right now, grayson is out of the picture.

Further, nolan is a case study for players with 1 great year and some good years, including a title. One notes that K has never even suggested winning titles have anything to do with retirement....sure they matter to the fans, but we have no reason assume they matter at all for this accomplishment.

[weezie]

There's just so much that goes on behind the scenes and in that locker room. All speculation, sure, that's why we love it here on DBR, that's the entire purpose of the site!. Everybody was dismayed last year but the young man paid a price and K named him solo captain this year. He's driving that team as asked. He's reaching a new height in leadership.
Let's hope the jersey goes up!

[CameronBornAndBred]

I'm a betting man and I'd be willing to take anybody's action. I'd bet that Grayson will be up there in the rafters. The only caveat I'd add is that no further unseemly incidents take place.

Maybe you can get a pie from Jason Evans.

[Dukehky]

There it is. We've had three years of evidence pointing to one conclusion: Coach K is all-in on Grayson. Make of that what you will.

If he's all in on Grayson, then what the hell was he for Wojo? Wojo won NDPOY and is like, the quintessential leader type dude, and his number isn't retired. National championships don't matter in this discussion, that can't be the distinction (Redick, Shelden, Gminski, Heyman, Groat, Mullins, Ferry).

I don't disagree that K loves G, but I don't think that's indicative of any kind of likelihood that someone gets their jersey retired.

[SoCalDukeFan]

I agree with those that think that if Coach K wants it up there, it will be up there.

If it were up to me, then probably not as I just don't see his career as more deserving then say Nolan or Kyle and probably some others. However he is on my list of favorite players because he did graduate and contributed so much. Quinn Cook is another on that list.

I do wonder if the criteria needs some adjustment in today's world. I would continue to require the diploma but maybe staying four years should give you bonus points.

SoCal

[El_Diablo]

Jason Capel didn't even make the "rafters" claim--the other announcer said it (starting at the 11:01 mark in the second half): "Grayson Allen's #3 will, at some point, be up at the rafters probably here at Cameron Indoor Stadium, along with the other greats in the history of this program. And, you know, in this day and age, you won't get talent like Grayson Allen staying around for four years. And so his career numbers will end up ranking up with some of the all time greats."

Capel, in response, discussed Allen's play toward the end of the 2015 season and how he etched his name in the Duke history books with his performance in the national championship game. As Allen hit a three on the next possession, Capel then transitioned into a description of how quickly Allen sets his feet and squares his shoulders when coming off the screen. After Jack White stole and dunked on the next possession, the discussion about Allen was over, except for Capel pointing out how Allen had enthusiastically jumped along with White on the dunk (in the context of complimenting his senior leadership).

Feel free to rag on Capel as much you like, but don't pin this on him!

[Rich]

Jason Capel didn't even make the "rafters" claim--the other announcer said it (starting at the 11:01 mark in the second half): "Grayson Allen's #3 will, at some point, be up at the rafters probably here at Cameron Indoor Stadium, along with the other greats in the history of this program. And, you know, in this day and age, you won't get talent like Grayson Allen staying around for four years. And so his career numbers will end up ranking up with some of the all time greats."

Capel, in response, discussed Allen's play toward the end of the 2015 season and how he etched his name in the Duke history books with his performance in the national championship game. As Allen hit a three on the next possession, Capel then transitioned into a description of how quickly Allen sets his feet and squares his shoulders when coming off the screen. After Jack White stole and dunked on the next possession, the discussion about Allen was over, except for Capel pointing out how Allen had enthusiastically jumped along with White on the dunk (in the context of complimenting his senior leadership).

Feel free to rag on Capel as much you like, but don't pin this on him!

Thanks for clarifying, but what choice do we have but to pin it on Capel? None of us can remember the other guy's name. Plus, Capel went to UNCheat, so even if he didn't say it, he's to blame for all the wrongs in the world.

[CDu]

Even if Grayson maintains his current level of play statistically and Duke wins Natty #6 he won't and shouldn't have his jersey retired. If Grayson ups his level of play, wins Natty #6 (or not) and wins NPOY then he probably will.


Not unless he wins NPOY, and even then it would be close. Too many more qualified players from the past ahead of him.

There is basically a 100% chance Allen would get his jersey retired if he wins a NPoY this year. And no, there would not be ANY more qualified (and unhonored) players from the past ahead of him in that scenario. He would have, at that point, a NPoY honor, multiple All-American honors, multiple All-ACC honors, and a national championship. There are only a couple of players in Duke history who have that resume, and they all have their jerseys retired.

There is nobody with a NPoY that doesn't have his jersey retired. There is nobody with a championship and multiple A-A honors who doesn't have their jersey retired.

Now, I don't think Allen is at all likely to win NPoY this year. But if he does, he'll have his jersey retired. No doubt about it.

I also would note that I wouldn't be shocked if Coach K veered away from the "rules" (he's done so previously) in Allen's case. Not saying I think Allen is even close to a 50% likelihood of getting his jersey hung, but I wouldn't discard the possibility altogether.

[sagegrouse]

If he's all in on Grayson, then what the hell was he for Wojo? Wojo won NDPOY and is like, the quintessential leader type dude, and his number isn't retired. National championships don't matter in this discussion, that can't be the distinction (Redick, Shelden, Gminski, Heyman, Groat, Mullins, Ferry).

I don't disagree that K loves G, but I don't think that's indicative of any kind of likelihood that someone gets their jersey retired.

Well... Wojo was never an All-American of any type. He was 2nd team All-ACC one year and third team All-ACC another. He never went to a Final Four (losing that lead to Ky. in the regional finals).

[JasonEvans]

Maybe you can get a pie from Jason Evans.

While I think the bet is a loser -- I think Grayson's chance of making it to the rafters is pretty slim at this point -- I have no interest at all in this bet as it would require me to bet against the success of a Dukie. I ain't doing that.

[CrazyNotCrazie]

Jason Capel didn't even make the "rafters" claim--the other announcer said it (starting at the 11:01 mark in the second half): "Grayson Allen's #3 will, at some point, be up at the rafters probably here at Cameron Indoor Stadium, along with the other greats in the history of this program. And, you know, in this day and age, you won't get talent like Grayson Allen staying around for four years. And so his career numbers will end up ranking up with some of the all time greats."

Capel, in response, discussed Allen's play toward the end of the 2015 season and how he etched his name in the Duke history books with his performance in the national championship game. As Allen hit a three on the next possession, Capel then transitioned into a description of how quickly Allen sets his feet and squares his shoulders when coming off the screen. After Jack White stole and dunked on the next possession, the discussion about Allen was over, except for Capel pointing out how Allen had enthusiastically jumped along with White on the dunk (in the context of complimenting his senior leadership).

Feel free to rag on Capel as much you like, but don't pin this on him!

Thanks. That's really helpful. I assumed Jason had said it and was assigning some weight to it given his close connection to the program through Jeff.

I do not think the "rules" should be changed given the changing landscape of college basketball. If there is never another number put in the rafters, so be it. I hate to use a Carolina analogy (I have done this in the past), but if the season continues as it has gone thus far (with Grayson not winning NPOY and probably not making first team A-A), I think Grayson ends up in the world of honored jerseys but not retired numbers alongside Kyle, Nolan, and a few others who were incredible but not quite there. If the second half is incredible and he makes NPOY, he definitely gets it. If he "only" makes 1st team A-A, it will be very close.

On a somewhat related note, I largely overlapped with Wojo at Duke and appreciate everything he did for Duke both as a player and a coach but he should not be considered in the same class as these guys. Other than the NDPOY award (and I'm still not quite sure how he got that - I still have bad memories of Wayne Turner abusing him), his credentials are notably below the others.

[brlftz]

The only way this is even a discussion is if Grayson has an absolutely monstrous senior year and is a consensus NPOY. If his junior year had continued the trend he was on from freshman to sophomore year then yes I could see having this discussion, but given the reality of last year and the nice but far from NPOY season he is having as a senior, it baffles me that anyone thinks this is likely.

[Wander]

but given the reality of last year and the nice but far from NPOY season he is having as a senior, it baffles me that anyone thinks this is likely.

Just to be clear (as one of the people who thinks the jersey retirement guidelines need to be adjusted), I think it is pretty unlikely Grayson will get his jersey retired. All I'm saying is that I don't think he would need a NPOY award to do it. I think if he wins ACC POY this season and we win a national championship, he should get it retired despite not having a NPOY award.

[brlftz]

Just to be clear (as one of the people who thinks the jersey retirement guidelines need to be adjusted), I think it is pretty unlikely Grayson will get his jersey retired. All I'm saying is that I don't think he would need a NPOY award to do it. I think if he wins ACC POY this season and we win a national championship, he should get it retired despite not having a NPOY award.

I suppose if he went Carmelo and carried us to a title [edit: singlehandedly] the way Grant nearly did I could see it, but it would have to be spectacular.

[devildeac]

Well... Wojo was never an All-American of any type. He was 2nd team All-ACC one year and third team All-ACC another. He never went to a Final Four (losing that lead to Ky. in the regional finals).

Too soon.

[rsvman]

Too soon.

Love it.



(FTR, it was nearly twenty years ago, but it seems like maybe ten.)

[OldPhiKap]

Grayson already has a banner hanging
In the rafters. 2015 National Champions. And I bet that he would not trade that banner for a retired jersey.

[uh_no]

Grayson already has a banner hanging
In the rafters. 2015 National Champions. And I bet that he would not trade that banner for a retired jersey.

he might get another one. i think the odds at this point of another baseline banner are higher than those of a sideline banner.

[Olympic Fan]

I largely overlapped with Wojo at Duke and appreciate everything he did for Duke both as a player and a coach but he should not be considered in the same class as these guys. Other than the NDPOY award (and I'm still not quite sure how he got that - I still have bad memories of Wayne Turner abusing him), his credentials are notably below the others.

Wojo won the NDPOY for a spectacular performance against Arizona's Mike Bibby in the finals of the Maui Invitational to o0pen the season. Arizona as the defending national champs and was ranked No. 1 at the time. Bibby was the star of that team and a preseason A-A, if not preseason NPOY. Wojo held him to eight points (on 2-of-10 shooting) and forced three TOs as Duke beat the 'Cats.

That got the commentators talking about what a great defender Wojo was -- and he followed it up with a strong defensive year.

You are right that he got abused by Wayne Turner in the regional finals - but that was after the vote was in for the award.

As for Grayson's jersey, I think it's very unlikely to be retired, unless he's voted NPOY.

[johnb]

... the odds at this point of another baseline banner are higher than those of a sideline banner.

this seems true.

as does Jason's idea that if we're discussing the possibility, it won't happen.

At the least, he'd probably have to average 30 ppg through the ACC season, which is tough when he gets only 12 shots/game,

If MB3 or WCJr would like to stick around to be juniors, we can talk jersey retirement.

[JasonEvans]

...unless he's voted NPOY.

And seeing as virtually everyone says he is not even the best player on his team, let alone in the nation, the odds of this happening are very, very slim.

Put another way, I would put Bagley's chances of winning NPOY significantly higher than Grayson at this point. My WAG on NPOY odds right now:

Trae Young - 25%
Jalen Brunson - 20%
Marvin Bagley - 18%
Miles Bridges - 10%
Colin Sexton - 5%
Mikal Bridges - 4%
Tra Holder - 4%
Alonzo Trier - 3%
DeAndre Ayton - 3%
Bonzie Colson - 2%
Grayson Allen - 1%
Field - 5%

-Jason "not even sure that adds up to 100%" Evans

[CDu]

Wojo won the NDPOY for a spectacular performance against Arizona's Mike Bibby in the finals of the Maui Invitational to o0pen the season. Arizona as the defending national champs and was ranked No. 1 at the time. Bibby was the star of that team and a preseason A-A, if not preseason NPOY. Wojo held him to eight points (on 2-of-10 shooting) and forced three TOs as Duke beat the 'Cats.

That got the commentators talking about what a great defender Wojo was -- and he followed it up with a strong defensive year.

You are right that he got abused by Wayne Turner in the regional finals - but that was after the vote was in for the award.

As for Grayson's jersey, I think it's very unlikely to be retired, unless he's voted NPOY.

Bibby was the perfect mark for Wojo. Not an overly athletic player (not a slouch, but not an explosive run/jump guy), he was more susceptible to Wojo's physicality than someone like Wayne Turner (who was just way too athletic for the scrappy-but-slow Wojo). It was also not a banner year for quick/explosive PGs in the ACC. The good ACC teams (Maryland and UNC) didn't have great athletes at PG (Stokes and Cota). Terrell McIntyre and Donald Hand were better athletes, but they were on bad teams and Hand was only a freshman. The rest of the ACC was really blah at PG that year (Spivey, Thompson, Gainey, Rutland).

But realistically, that probably wasn't a deserved award for Wojo. There were better defenders: Ruben Patterson, Kenyon Martin, Andre Miller, Etan Thomas, Bonzi Wells, Alvin Jones, Calvin Booth. But, as you said, a fair amount of the award for DPoY is name recognition/repetition, as defense is much less straightforward to track quality. And Wojo got the recognition early in the season, which (along with Duke's team success) kept him on the radar. And with the ACC having a down year overall (combined with Duke's depth), nothing really threw a wrench into things for Wojo all season.

[uh_no]

And seeing as virtually everyone says he is not even the best player on his team, let alone in the nation, the odds of this happening are very, very slim.

Put another way, I would put Bagley's chances of winning NPOY significantly higher than Grayson at this point. My WAG on NPOY odds right now:

Trae Young - 25%
Jalen Brunson - 20%
Marvin Bagley - 18%
Miles Bridges - 10%
Colin Sexton - 5%
Mikal Bridges - 4%
Tra Holder - 4%
Alonzo Trier - 3%
DeAndre Ayton - 3%
Bonzie Colson - 2%
Grayson Allen - 1%
Field - 5%

-Jason "not even sure that adds up to 100%" Evans


Which is largely a shame. NPOY will largely go to stand out guys on teams with no other options who thus put out gaudy stats. Yes, there's something to be said about being able to score even when the defense can focus on you, but you can't tell me grayson couldn't be putting up 20 a night on most other major conference teams. Nobody on duke will win NPOY. we have too many good players. It's thus a shame that we have tied something like jersey retirement to something that these days is so unrepresentative.

Not that the winners are ever undeserving...just that there are probably several guys that could do what they did in the same position who IMO, might be just as or more deserving of the accolades.

Anyway, if you asked me, grayson allen would be up there. if he were to have some moments in big games like the 2015 title game where you can look at it and say...that's leadership. that's the epitome of duke. I would have no problem with it.

I just don't think it will happen.

more so than any other person i've seen play at my (compared to all of you) short fandom for duke, I don't know of anyone I would wish retirement more than grayson.

I would love jay bilas to be calling the ceremony from the floor in cameron that night, and I would love grayson allen to look him in the eye, and flip him the bird.

[Rich]

Bibby was the perfect mark for Wojo. Not an overly athletic player (not a slouch, but not an explosive run/jump guy), he was more susceptible to Wojo's physicality than someone like Wayne Turner (who was just way too athletic for the scrappy-but-slow Wojo). It was also not a banner year for quick/explosive PGs in the ACC. The good ACC teams (Maryland and UNC) didn't have great athletes at PG (Stokes and Cota). Terrell McIntyre and Donald Hand were better athletes, but they were on bad teams and Hand was only a freshman. The rest of the ACC was really blah at PG that year (Spivey, Thompson, Gainey, Rutland).

But realistically, that probably wasn't a deserved award for Wojo. There were better defenders: Ruben Patterson, Kenyon Martin, Andre Miller, Etan Thomas, Bonzi Wells, Alvin Jones, Calvin Booth. But, as you said, a fair amount of the award for DPoY is name recognition/repetition, as defense is much less straightforward to track quality. And Wojo got the recognition early in the season, which (along with Duke's team success) kept him on the radar. And with the ACC having a down year overall (combined with Duke's depth), nothing really threw a wrench into things for Wojo all season.

Ha, I read that and the visual that came to mind was Bonzie Colson, and I thought, "Damn, that guy has been playing for a long time!"

[PeteZaHut]

Really? Are we dogging him out because of college, or do you really dislike his commentary? I find him to be one of the sharper young guys on tv.

I prefer to listen to pretty much anyone over Jay Bilas

[DukeDevilDeb]

Don't have to stay four years. Have to graduate. Jason Williams stayed 3 years and his jersey is up there.

I THINK boozer and dunleavy have both graduated since leaving Duke.

Dunleavy came back almost immediately and finished his degree the summer after his first NBA year. Hooray for Mike. He was a pleasure to work with, a really smart guy, and never intended to leave until he was told he would go #3. I would have a hard time turning that down too!

Boozer, on the other hand, was a lackadaisical student on his best days. I didn't have him in class (one of the few from those days who escaped me!), but I know many who were his professors and said that he just didn't have any drive for scholarship or academics. I even know his judo teacher who, in those days, was supposed to help Carlos focus on things (like the game that was going on). He said that Carlos was rarely focused on anything single thing. The academic office for basketball has worked hard to try to get him to come back... maybe now, with retirement from basketball, he will... but I think that if you believe that, I have some swampland in CH that I would be happy to sell you!

Dunleavy graduated; Boozer didn't. But it is absolutely correct that it isn't the number of years you spend but the fact that you graduate that matters.

Go Duke!

[vick]

Which is largely a shame. NPOY will largely go to stand out guys on teams with no other options who thus put out gaudy stats. Yes, there's something to be said about being able to score even when the defense can focus on you, but you can't tell me grayson couldn't be putting up 20 a night on most other major conference teams. Nobody on duke will win NPOY. we have too many good players. It's thus a shame that we have tied something like jersey retirement to something that these days is so unrepresentative.

Eh, I dunno. You look at the list of NPOYs in the last decade, and there are players who didn't have many other options (Fredette, McDermott, Hield), but others who were on plenty-loaded teams (Davis, Burke, Kaminsky, Mason) that either made the Final Four, were 1-seeds, or both. Duke's had first team all-Americans in two of the past five years (Parker, Okafor), and two-other second-teamers (Plumlee, Kennard) who both got early NPOY chatter before fading a bit. I think there's plenty of opportunity for Duke players to get recognition if they're at NPOY level.

[Doria]

I also don’t think it will happen without an unlikely occurrence. However, for the couple people who pointed out that he only had 17 points in the championship game, didn’t the team make an award specifically for his performance?

[uh_no]

I also don’t think it will happen without an unlikely occurrence. However, for the couple people who pointed out that he only had 17 points in the championship game, didn’t the team make an award specifically for his performance?

specifically for the play where he dove for the steal and shouted "let's go"

http://www.studentunionsports.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/03/16186_3aca2887-bbd2-466d-bdee-e4abde6a67fef.jpg

[CameronBornAndBred]

Trae Young - 25%
Jalen Brunson - 20%
Marvin Bagley - 18%
Miles Bridges - 10%
Colin Sexton - 5%
Mikal Bridges - 4%
Tra Holder - 4%
Alonzo Trier - 3%
DeAndre Ayton - 3%
Bonzie Colson - 2%
Grayson Allen - 1%
Field - 5%

-Jason "not even sure that adds up to 100%" Evans

It does in Chapel Hill.

[superdave]

Grayson is turning into a more Scheyer/Singler/Smith type career. Longevity, excellence, carries the team for stretches, but does not quite carry the team by himself for a whole season. I think that last part (besides gaudy stats on a middling team aka The Kevin Durant freshman year) is what it takes to be 1st team AA or even NPOY.

At this point, Allen would need to be either consensus 1st team AA, finish with about 2,100 career points plus win a 2nd Title, or be NPOY. The first scenario seems more likely, as I think Bagley will continue to average 20-10 and take any NPOY steam away from Allen.

The first scenario is marginally likely to happen. I think Allen could get to 2,100 career points with a Final Four run, and could be 1st team AA if Duke only drops another ACC game or two and wins the ACCT. But again, how much does Bagley steal his thunder?

My guess is there's a 95%+ likelihood that Grayson is 2nd team AA, 2,000+ points and top 10 all-time at Duke, and make a Final Four. First team AA seems like 25% chance and NPOY sub 5%. I dont want to jinx and put odds on a title, but Allen's career arc is firmly in the Singler/Scheyer/Smith/Alarie/Duhon arc. He needed a better year last year, without that incident, to be in a better position for the lifetime achievement jersey hanging, given the other talent on the roster tamping down his individual stats as a junior and senior.

[throatybeard]

this comes up for every senior that is reasonably good, and the answer isn't any different here.



Indeed. This thread covered Handy Pocket Reference 12A, 12B and 12C in just a few posts.

[superdave]

Indeed. This thread covered Handy Pocket Reference 12A, 12B and 12C in just a few posts.

What else are you going to do on the internet? Puns?

[Tripping William]

What else are you going to do on the internet? Puns?

It’s either that, Calbert Cheaney, Woodrow Wilson, or beer. A terribly tangled <ahem> web.

[westwall]

Many unwritten rules, but if Coach K wants GA in the rafters, GA will be in the rafters. Honestly, it would not surprise me if it happens.

Agreed.. There is much to play out this season, but the reality is: there is one person who sets and can adjust the “rules”, and that same person holds the only vote that counts . At the 2015 MBB Banquet Grayson lacked the qualifications to qualify for any of the traditional awards, but Coach K created a new (probably one-time) award for Grayson. Coach K can do that again, and put Grayson in the rafters, if he alone he feels the circumstances warrant.

[sagegrouse]

Agreed.. There is much to play out this season, but the reality is: there is one person who sets and can adjust the “rules”, and that same person holds the only vote that counts . At the 2015 MBB Banquet Grayson lacked the qualifications to qualify for any of the traditional awards, but Coach K created a new (probably one-time) award for Grayson. Coach K can do that again, and put Grayson in the rafters, if he alone he feels the circumstances warrant.

1st or 2nd team A-A for Grayson this year should do it. In 2016, he was on the verge of consensus 2nd team -- 2nd TSN (plus CBS Sports) -- third team AP and NABC. In AP, he was the highest vote-getter on the third team. I would argue that his "trips" unfairly pushed him down the list. Those two years plus All-FF in a third year constitutes a heap of national recognition.

[uh_no]

1st or 2nd team A-A for Grayson this year should do it. In 2016, he was on the verge of consensus 2nd team -- 2nd TSN (plus CBS Sports) -- third team AP and NABC. In AP, he was the highest vote-getter on the third team. I would argue that his "trips" unfairly pushed him down the list. Those two years plus All-FF in a third year constitutes a heap of national recognition.

so why aren't nolan smith and kyle singler retired?

[CDu]

so why aren't nolan smith and kyle singler retired?

Because of the rest of his body of work. This would be Allen’s second consensus All-America honor (if he gets it), and he also had the aforementioned all-tourney team in a third year. Smith had just the one phenomenal year individually. Singler was never a consensus All-American. He had the tourney MOP and was an All-American on just one service one year.

Allen is probably on par with those two guys right now. But getting another All-America honor would distance himself from those guys.

[Acymetric]

Because of the rest of his body of work. This would be Allen’s second consensus All-America honor (if he gets it), and he also had the aforementioned all-tourney team in a third year. Smith had just the one phenomenal year individually. Singler was never a consensus All-American. He had the tourney MOP and was an All-American on just one service one year.

Allen is probably on par with those two guys right now. But getting another All-America honor would distance himself from those guys.

But arguably only slightly...I would say not enough to get his jersey hung (maybe a different story if he is 1st team, but that seems unlikely).

[sagegrouse]

so why aren't nolan smith and kyle singler retired?

Singler has one year with 2nd team A-A (2011). The only other national honor is Most Outstanding Player in the 2010 FF.

Nolan has one year as 1st team A-A and was All-FF in 2010. Interestingly, when it appeared that Nolan might be NPOY in 2011, K started talking up Singler and his career stats. It seemed quite likely that if Nolan's jersey were retired, so would Kyle's.

If Grayson is 2nd or 1st team A-A in 2018, then he would have two years with A-A honors and a third year when he was All-FF.

[throatybeard]

I can say definitively that these threads have made me not care if any more jerseys do or don't get retired. Even if Wojo Jr scores 3000.

[Olympic Fan]

Because of the rest of his body of work. This would be Allen’s second consensus All-America honor (if he gets it), and he also had the aforementioned all-tourney team in a third year. Smith had just the one phenomenal year individually. Singler was never a consensus All-American. He had the tourney MOP and was an All-American on just one service one year.

Allen is probably on par with those two guys right now. But getting another All-America honor would distance himself from those guys.

Unfortunately, Grayson was not a consensus. A-A in 2016 -- he made one first team (the Wooden), was second in everything else except he was third team by Basketball Times and AP ... he didn't make any of the teams picked by the USBWA. The failure to win a spot on the USBWA team cost him a spot as a second-team consensus All-American:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2016_NCAA_Men%27s_Basketball_All-Americans

By contrast:

Bob Verga was consensus second team in '66 and consensus first team in '67. His jersey is not in the rafters.

Elton Brand, Chris Carrawell, Nolan Smith, Jabari Parker and Jahlil Okafor were all consensus first-team All-Americans and their numbers were not retired (although to be fair, Brand, Parker and Okafor didn't graduate -- and that seems to be the hard and fast rule).

I don't see where Grayson's body of work stands out from quite a few great Duke players. To say he's on a par with first-team All-Americans "right now" is stretching it.

Note: Smith had "just one phenomenal year individually"? So you dismiss 2010, when he was one of the big three on Duke's national title team (and, like Allen in 2015, was on the All Final Four team)? Yeah, he was only the No. 7 vote-getter on the All-ACC voting, but that's better than Grayson in any year other than 2016. And in 2011, he was a first-team All-American, something Grayson is till trying to achieve. Let him win that and you can argue that his resume is better than Nolan's. But at this moment, he's clearly behind in the resume race.

[Tappan Zee Devil]

Unfortunately, Grayson was not a consensus. A-A in 2016 -- he made one first team (the Wooden), was second in everything else except he was third team by Basketball Times and AP ... he didn't make any of the teams picked by the USBWA. The failure to win a spot on the USBWA team cost him a spot as a second-team consensus All-American:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2016_NCAA_Men%27s_Basketball_All-Americans

By contrast:

Bob Verga was consensus second team in '66 and consensus first team in '67. His jersey is not in the rafters.

Elton Brand, Chris Carrawell, Nolan Smith, Jabari Parker and Jahlil Okafor were all consensus first-team All-Americans and their numbers were not retired (although to be fair, Brand, Parker and Okafor didn't graduate -- and that seems to be the hard and fast rule).

I don't see where Grayson's body of work stands out from quite a few great Duke players. To say he's on a par with first-team All-Americans "right now" is stretching it.

Note: Smith had "just one phenomenal year individually"? So you dismiss 2010, when he was one of the big three on Duke's national title team (and, like Allen in 2015, was on the All Final Four team)? Yeah, he was only the No. 7 vote-getter on the All-ACC voting, but that's better than Grayson in any year other than 2016. And in 2011, he was a first-team All-American, something Grayson is till trying to achieve. Let him win that and you can argue that his resume is better than Nolan's. But at this moment, he's clearly behind in the resume race.

As someone who was around in the 60s and actually saw Verga play, it is a travesty that his number is not retired.

He was JJ - 40 years before JJ

(and with no 3 point shot)

[Olympic Fan]

As someone who was around in the 60s and actually saw Verga play, it is a travesty that his number is not retired.

He was JJ - 40 years before JJ

(and with no 3 point shot)

Verga averaged 26.1 ppg as a senior in 1967.

He made 283 FGs ... my guess is that at least half of them were from beyond 3-point range (some of you other old-timers back me up on that),

If we give him the extra 140 points or so that he would have had under the current rules, he would have averaged 31.2 ppg -- better than JJ (or any other Duke player) ever did.

Give him the 3-point shot for his career and he scores 2,118 points IN THREE YEARS (right now, the best 3-year total in Duke history is 2,079 by Jason Williams).

As it was, Verga averaged 22.0 ppg for his career ... better than JJ (19.9) or Johnny D (19.2) and only behind Heyman (25.1).

But if Verga had the 3-point shot for his career, he would have averaged about 26.4 ppg -- he would have been the most prolific scorer (per game) in Duke history.

Verga was a GREAT player -- easily the most deserving player whose jersey has not been retired.

[jv001]

Verga averaged 26.1 ppg as a senior in 1967.

He made 283 FGs ... my guess is that at least half of them were from beyond 3-point range (some of you other old-timers back me up on that),

If we give him the extra 140 points or so that he would have had under the current rules, he would have averaged 31.2 ppg -- better than JJ (or any other Duke player) ever did.

Give him the 3-point shot for his career and he scores 2,118 points IN THREE YEARS (right now, the best 3-year total in Duke history is 2,079 by Jason Williams).

As it was, Verga averaged 22.0 ppg for his career ... better than JJ (19.9) or Johnny D (19.2) and only behind Heyman (25.1).

But if Verga had the 3-point shot for his career, he would have averaged about 26.4 ppg -- he would have been the most prolific scorer (per game) in Duke history.

Verga was a GREAT player -- easily the most deserving player whose jersey has not been retired.

One of my first Duke favorites. Bob Verga from Sea Girt, NJ. GoDuke!

[TruBlu]

Verga averaged 26.1 ppg as a senior in 1967.

He made 283 FGs ... my guess is that at least half of them were from beyond 3-point range (some of you other old-timers back me up on that)


Old timer here. Consider yourself backed up.

[jimmymax]

I agree with those that think that if Coach K wants it up there, it will be up there.

This. After being flagged with an infraction for needless posting, where are the mods when you need them. It's as bad as the tiresome minutes speculation threads...

[porkpa]

The fact remains that it is almost certain that we would not have won that last National Championship if not for a freshman named Grayson Allen.
Add to that, his exemplary body of work, leadership and scholarship in the next three years and in my opinion, there should be no question about his deserving a spot in the rafters.

[lotusland]

The dynamic for jersey retirement has drastically changed in the OAD era. I could see K changing the criteria a bit to reflect the new landscape. The question is, what will the landscape be if/when the NBA changes the rule again? If Bagley, Parker, Ingram and Okafor go straight to the league while Tyus, Justise, Jackson and Kennard still only stay 2 years, does the dynamic really change for talented players sticking around long enough to qualify? Maybe K just stands pat and lets the next coach decide.

[PeteZaHut]

When I was in school (graduated 2012), the line monitors had circulated official criteria for getting one's jersey retired. I don't remember all of them, but they included being either national player of the year or defensive player of the year as well as getting your degree. By those rules, Grayson is out of the running to get his jersey retired. That being said, I could very much see K retiring Bagley's jersey in a year or two if he were to win POTY.

[OldPhiKap]

If we were going to retire a jersey on the basis that we won the 2015 Natty, we would retire Quinn Cook’s jersey. But that’s not the criteria.

And as I have said before, Quinn does has a banner hanging. It is a team banner, not an individual one. But it is one of the five most important banners we have hanging.

You think Johnny Dawkins would trade a retired jersey for an ‘86 National Championship banner? I sure do. And as a fan, even though JD is my favorite player, I certainly would.

So, back to Grayson. He has one NC banner hanging, and can join a really elite group to have two. But absent a National POY award, I just don’t see it. That does not mean he is not an incredible player and part of Duke history. He is, and always will be.

[sagegrouse]

When I was in school (graduated 2012), the line monitors had circulated official criteria for getting one's jersey retired. I don't remember all of them, but they included being either national player of the year or defensive player of the year as well as getting your degree. By those rules, Grayson is out of the running to get his jersey retired. That being said, I could very much see K retiring Bagley's jersey in a year or two if he were to win POTY.

Counter examples to the wisdom of the "line monitors:"

Jeff Mullins
Mike Gminski
Bobby Hurley

That's three out of 13. And, Dick Groat, Johnny Dawkins and Danny Ferry were by no means unanimous NPOYs.

Here's the revealed wisdom from an analysis of retired jerseys:

One-time A-A, even first team, isn't enough, says Bob Verga, Chris Carrawell and Nolan Smith.

Two-time consensus 2nd-team A-A or better is money in the bank and applies to all but two of the 13 retired jerseys: Jeff Mullins and Bobby Hurley. Jeff was Duke's first Olympic gold medal winner in hoops, first NBA all-Star and first with an NBA championship; he was also a successful college coach at Charlotte and a Duke asst. AD. (He was also President of Sage's class at Duke, which surprisingly did not DQ him.) Bobby Hurley was ... well "Bobby Hurley;" he was first-team A-A in 1993 and served as the point guard on two NCAA championships and one other NCAA finalist. Bob Verga is the only Dukie with these quals whose jersey is not retired.

I have separately posted about Grayson's chances this year.

[nmduke2001]

When I was in school (graduated 2012), the line monitors had circulated official criteria for getting one's jersey retired. I don't remember all of them, but they included being either national player of the year or defensive player of the year as well as getting your degree. By those rules, Grayson is out of the running to get his jersey retired. That being said, I could very much see K retiring Bagley's jersey in a year or two if he were to win POTY.

I think we can all agree that there is really no "official criteria for getting one's jersey retired." As I mentioned earlier on this thread, ultimately, the only opinion that matters is that of Coach K. If Coach feels someone has earned the honor, then they will have their jersey retired despite what any of us on DBR think (although, it would be cool if Coach K anonymously peruses this forum and decides to post a poll on who should have their jersey retired or who should be getting minutes).

btw, I wouldn't use the line monitors as my source for real basketball information.

[Wander]

When I was in school (graduated 2012), the line monitors had circulated official criteria for getting one's jersey retired. I don't remember all of them, but they included being either national player of the year or defensive player of the year

Someone correct me if I remember it differently, but I remember the "defensive player of the year" part just being a cute little trick to justify the retirement of Shelden Williams' jersey... before that, no one included NDPOY as one of the rumored potential criteria. If Grayson wins ACC POY and we win a 2nd national championship, I'm sure we can find some national senior class award that Grayson won to do the same thing.

[devildeac]

Someone correct me if I remember it differently, but I remember the "defensive player of the year" part just being a cute little trick to justify the retirement of Shelden Williams' jersey... before that, no one included NDPOY as one of the rumored potential criteria. If Grayson wins ACC POY and we win a 2nd national championship, I'm sure we can find some national senior class award that Grayson won to do the same thing.

Shelden is also the all-time career leader at Duke for shots blocked AND rebounds. I'm fine with that jersey in the rafters.

[cbarry]

I could very much see K retiring Bagley's jersey in a year or two if he were to win POTY.
Bagley's jersey (#35) IS already retired, just with Ferry's name on it!

[Wander]

Shelden is also the all-time career leader at Duke for shots blocked AND rebounds. I'm fine with that jersey in the rafters.

I'm not saying it shouldn't be retired. It's just an example of how we changed our supposed criteria for a particular player, and an example that shows what nmduke2001 is saying - Coach K's opinion is the only actual requirement.

[Saratoga2]

Someone correct me if I remember it differently, but I remember the "defensive player of the year" part just being a cute little trick to justify the retirement of Shelden Williams' jersey... before that, no one included NDPOY as one of the rumored potential criteria. If Grayson wins ACC POY and we win a 2nd national championship, I'm sure we can find some national senior class award that Grayson won to do the same thing.

Grayson deserves a lot of credit for standing up to the constant heckling that he has faced (based on his own actions), but it is hard to see him becoming ACC Player of the year on a team with at least two other stars. Grayson works very hard and in my opinion is a solid but not top notch defender. He can score a lot of points when hitting but also can not show up. Unless he comes alive during the ACC season and averages nearly 20 ppg, I don't see him as having much of a shot at ACC POY.

[Wander]

Grayson deserves a lot of credit for standing up to the constant heckling that he has faced (based on his own actions), but it is hard to see him becoming ACC Player of the year on a team with at least two other stars. Grayson works very hard and in my opinion is a solid but not top notch defender. He can score a lot of points when hitting but also can not show up. Unless he comes alive during the ACC season and averages nearly 20 ppg, I don't see him as having much of a shot at ACC POY.

I agree. I don't think he has much of a chance at jersey retirement. My only argument is that IF he goes nuts and becomes ACC POY and we win a national championship, I think that should be sufficient for jersey retirement despite not winning a NPOY award.

[mgtr]

I see a scenario (not likely, but certainly possible) whereby GA is NPOY. That would involve our team stubbing its toes one or two more times (as we did with BC). Losing games which we should have won. Then Coach K tells Grayson to take over the team, and score all he can. GA performs, the team becomes sort of one-dimensional, and we win a Natty.
Not my choice for how the season should go, or is likely to go, but a possibility, even if a slim one.

[Dukehky]

The fact remains that it is almost certain that we would not have won that last National Championship if not for a freshman named Grayson Allen.
Add to that, his exemplary body of work, leadership and scholarship in the next three years and in my opinion, there should be no question about his deserving a spot in the rafters.

None of these are rational arguments. Mason Plumlee fit this almost exactly. Maybe he didn't score 17 points in the national championship game, but there are arguably some games we wouldn't have won without him (that's a silly argument though, literally if you take any good player off a team, the team wouldn't be as good; for example, Andre Dawkins was one of the big reasons we beat Baylor that year).

I like Grayson, but I doubt he's getting his jersey retired under the currently specified rules.

[JNort]

When I was in school (graduated 2012), the line monitors had circulated official criteria for getting one's jersey retired. I don't remember all of them, but they included being either national player of the year or defensive player of the year as well as getting your degree. By those rules, Grayson is out of the running to get his jersey retired. That being said, I could very much see K retiring Bagley's jersey in a year or two if he were to win POTY.

I hope this was a joke...

[DukieInBrasil]

Counter examples to the wisdom of the "line monitors:"

That's three out of 13. And, Dick Groat, Johnny Dawkins and Danny Ferry were by no means unanimous NPOYs.



strawman. nobody mentioned unanimous selection as a requirement.


Someone correct me if I remember it differently, but I remember the "defensive player of the year" part just being a cute little trick to justify the retirement of Shelden Williams' jersey... before that, no one included NDPOY as one of the rumored potential criteria. If Grayson wins ACC POY and we win a 2nd national championship, I'm sure we can find some national senior class award that Grayson won to do the same thing.

as mentioned already, Shelden is the all-time Duke record holder for blocks AND rebounds, as well as NDPOY. so there is more to that than a cute little trick.

I find it unlikely that Grayson gets his jersey retired, and likely not if his current level of play holds for the rest of the year, even if we win another Natty. He could play at an absolutely insanely high level for the rest of the year, pick up some fancy hardware, and then be a likely honoree of jersey retirement. In the end it doesn't matter, i just want for Grayson to play as well as he can, and well enough within the team concept to help the team win another Natty this year!

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

I hope this was a joke...

I can see myself and Aubrey Plaza getting married, but that don't make it so.

[sagegrouse]

strawman. nobody mentioned unanimous selection as a requirement.


Dukiein Brasil's comment is in response to my comment on the "line-monitor wisdom" that being NPOY or NDPOY was a main requirement.

I cited Mullins, Gminski and Hurley as counter examples who were neither and mentioned that Groat, Ferry and Dawkins were not unanimous NPOY selections -- I really meant "consensus." These three, of course, were consensus first or second-team A-A's in multiple years, which appears to be the best explanation of jersey retirement.

[Devilwin]

If staying four years had something to do with it, as good as he's been, I say yes. Win a Natty and POY, no brainer from my prospective.. Hang it.

[skysdad]

If he meets the criteria it goes up. Some fans think Kyle Singler's # should be up there but he doesn't meet all the requirements. I used to be able to tell what those are but can't keep up with them. One I know is a degree must be earned and that's gonna cut the numbers that go up a lot because of early entry's . Remember also that there aren't a ton of basketball numbers like baseball and football. One thing they may want to look into is a ring of honor where they could put players numbers and names around Cameron on the part that separates the upper section from the bleachers. That way Kyle and others could be honored.

[Olympic Fan]

Dukiein Brasil's comment is in response to my comment on the "line-monitor wisdom" that being NPOY or NDPOY was a main requirement.

I cited Mullins, Gminski and Hurley as counter examples who were neither and mentioned that Groat, Ferry and Dawkins were not unanimous NPOY selections -- I really meant "consensus." These three, of course, were consensus first or second-team A-A's in multiple years, which appears to be the best explanation of jersey retirement.

I just wanted to clarify ... Dawkins, of course, won one major NPOY award (Naismith). Walter Berry of St. John's won the rest and was the consensus NPOY in 1986. Ferry in 1989 actually split the major awards with Arizona's Sean Elliott (Oklahoma's Stacy King won the Sporting News Award to screw things up). Several sources list Ferry and Elliott as co-consensus NPOY. FWIW, the ACC lists Ferry as the consensus NPOY in 1989.

But there is no dispute about Groat -- he won every major POY award in 1952. The landscape was different back then. The first of the awards that the NCAA now counts toward consensus didn't appear until 1958. But there were well recognized national player of the year awards back them.

Groat won the UPI award. The UPI was a wire service rival of the AP. While the AP polled writers, the UPI polled coaches. There was also the Look Magazine All-American team, which received tremendous publicity in '52. Groat won the Look NPOY award. And he also won the less-recognized Helms Foundation. And while the AP didn't officially name a NPOY, Groat was the leading vote-getter n the AP's All-American team.

He was a consensus second team All-American in 1951 as a junior and a unanimous first-team A-A in 1952.

Groat is also listed as a two-time baseball All-American (although I can't conform which teams he was on). His unique status as a two-sport All-American gave him a special place in Duke history -- at least according to athletic director Eddie Cameron. Cameron so admired Groat that he refused to let any other jersies be retired after Groat's No. 10. That was incredibly frustrating to Vic Bubas, who wanted to honor several players -- starting with consensus NPOY Art Heyman.

But Cameron blocked all number retirements. It was only after Cameron retired that Bill Foster was able to convince Tom Butters to retire Mike Gminski's number.

Groat and Gminski remain the only two numbers retired without K's blessing.

After K started retiring numbers for Dawkins and Ferry, several old-timers convinced him to honor stars from the Bubas era, who were passed over because of Cameron. Coach K consulted with Bubas and had Heyman's and Mullins' numbers retired. I'm not sure why he didn't also retire Verga's number.

Still, the process is very much in K's hands. I doubt that Allen will qualify unless he has a remarkable three-month run to finish his career. But if K wanted to, he could retire Brennan Besser's number.

[msdukie]

The only "official" requirements are:

1. Graduation

AND

2. "A player must achieve at a national level", which includes "earn National Player of the Year or National Defensive Player of the Year honors, set an NCAA record, win a gold medal representing his country in the Olympics or earn All-America recognition." [This is straight from the media guide - which also says that there are no "official" requirements while stating these "official" requirements].

That's it. While every post-1994 retiree has been NPOY (except Shelden and Elizabeth Williams who were both NDPOY and hold various other records), requirement #2 allows for flexibility at the Head Coach and AD's discretion.

Additionally, as for honoring people etc., there is a Hall of Honor for those who fall short of jersey retirement. It has specific requirements which are basically the same EXCEPT it does NOT require graduation:

1. Your jersey must not have been retired AND

2. You have one of the following:
a. National Player of the Year;
b. National Defensive Player of the Year;
c. All-America;
d. Multiple First Team All-ACC (or SC) selections;
e. Olympic Gold Medalist.
[It doesn't officially state ACC (or SC) POY, but based on who is in, that seems to get you in too.]

[The Gordog]

Grayson deserves a lot of credit for standing up to the constant heckling that he has faced (based on his own actions), but it is hard to see him becoming ACC Player of the year on a team with at least two other stars. Grayson works very hard and in my opinion is a solid but not top notch defender. He can score a lot of points when hitting but also can not show up. Unless he comes alive during the ACC season and averages nearly 20 ppg, I don't see him as having much of a shot at ACC POY.

Sometimes Grayson does not succeed as well as we would like, but I take serious exception to the notion that he ever does "not show up."

Having said that I agree with most on here that it's unlikely that his jersey will be retired.