Bring back the Big Four Tournament

[Bob Green]

I read this tweet:


Tom Noie‏
@tnoieNDI

Interesting tidbit from today's media session with #NotreDame coach Mike Brey - when #ACC goes to 20 league games in 2019-20, coaches discussed taking FIRST TWO DAYS that the regular season can open and playing league games right off bat - Brey "I think it's a great idea."

And immediately thought, let's start the season with a bang by bringing back the Big Four Tournament.

[22JumpShots]

I am all for more big time games (especially early on), but does this add more games into the season (more than 40?) or absorb within the current? Could this addition make the long season more grueling thus hindering our chances down the line?

Also brings a question to mind...what is the highest possibly of games playable in a season?

In PK80 Duke got 3 extra games...and then say hypothetically something strange happened that landed us in that place where you have to play 4 ACC games in the conference tournament...but then won out completely. 44 Games? That seems like too many, but I am pretty sure that's right.

[devildeac]

I read this tweet:



And immediately thought, let's start the season with a bang by bringing back the Big Four Tournament.

Great idea: Duke, WFU, NSCU and a guest team every year. For year 1, I'll nominate inviting Syracuse and playing it in Greensboro. :D

[MChambers]

Great idea: Duke, WFU, NSCU and a guest team every year. For year 1, I'll nominate inviting Syracuse and playing it in Greensboro. :D
That’s pretty much what I was thinking!

[RPS]

And immediately thought, let's start the season with a bang by bringing back the Big Four Tournament.This time they can be on television. I still want to see a complete home-and-home within the conference, too. I know the reasons not do and just don't care.

[Kedsy]

I read this tweet:



And immediately thought, let's start the season with a bang by bringing back the Big Four Tournament.

Except the Big Four Tournament games weren't ACC games.

[Bob Green]

Except the Big Four Tournament games weren't ACC games.

Yes, you are correct and I am well aware they were not ACC games. The fans loved the tournament, the coaches hated it. I listened to many Big Four games on the radio. I loved the tournament and if the ACC is going to play ACC games in November I'd love to see the Big Four Tournament revived with the slight change that this time they would be conference games.

[sagegrouse]

I am all for more big time games (especially early on), but does this add more games into the season (more than 40?) or absorb within the current? Could this addition make the long season more grueling thus hindering our chances down the line?

Also brings a question to mind...what is the highest possibly of games playable in a season?

In PK80 Duke got 3 extra games...and then say hypothetically something strange happened that landed us in that place where you have to play 4 ACC games in the conference tournament...but then won out completely. 44 Games? That seems like too many, but I am pretty sure that's right.

What's going on is that the media money is sick and tired of Cupcake City and want the name teams to play a more rigorous schedule. The top teams won't do it, unless everyone does it. That explains the 20-game conference schedule.

[jimsumner]

Yes, you are correct and I am well aware they were not ACC games. The fans loved the tournament, the coaches hated it. I listened to many Big Four games on the radio. I loved the tournament and if the ACC is going to play ACC games in November I'd love to see the Big Four Tournament revived with the slight change that this time they would be conference games.

No way these games would be conference games. First, no one is going to give up a home game for a game in Greensboro. Second, you don't know who is going to play the second night without knowing the results of the first night. Scheduling nightmare.

Twenty ACC games is enough. Probably more than enough, IMO.

[Bob Green]

No way these games would be conference games. First, no one is going to give up a home game for a game in Greensboro. Second, you don't know who is going to play the second night without knowing the results of the first night. Scheduling nightmare.

I'm certain you are correct. But we are allowed to dream. :cool:

[BLPOG]

I read this tweet:



And immediately thought, let's start the season with a bang by bringing back the Big Four Tournament.

7919

[OldPhiKap]

Great idea: Duke, WFU, NSCU and a guest team every year. For year 1, I'll nominate inviting Syracuse and playing it in Greensboro. :D

I intend to purposely miss watching two games this year. If necessary, three.

God help if I have to miss four, although will likely be overseas for the FF anyway.

[ipatent]

I thought it was a shame when they canceled the Big Four, it was a great way to kick off the season in high gear. My first Big Four was as a freshman at Duke in '79, Gminski's senior year. It was canceled shortly after that. I've heard the coaches didn't like having to play rivalry games that early.

In the Duke-OAD era, I suppose many of us would like to see the team have a few months to gel before taking on UNC.

[Olympic Fan]

Also brings a question to mind...what is the highest possibly of games playable in a season?

In PK80 Duke got 3 extra games...and then say hypothetically something strange happened that landed us in that place where you have to play 4 ACC games in the conference tournament...but then won out completely. 44 Games? That seems like too many, but I am pretty sure that's right.

That's not right ... the PK80 is like any in-season tourney (the Maui Classic, the Battle of Atlantis, the Great Alaskan Shootout. etc.). Up to three games count as one game on your schedule/. Any addition tourney games (such as Furman-Duke) count as one extra game. Duke has taken advantage of this rule for years, almost always playing the max 31 regular season games (as they do this year).

Under the rules, a team could play a max of 40 games (as Duke did under some slightly different rules in 1986). Kentucky would have been 40-0 had they won out in 2015.

You are right that the expanded ACC Tournament could change things. It's theoretically possible to get FIVE games in the ACC Tournament -- possible, but unlikely. But legally, a team could play 31 regular season games, finish in the bottom six of the ACC (getting five tourney games) and win the NCAA -- getting to a max of 42 games.

That's the current limit, although the rules could change.

I enjoyed the Big Four Tournament (killed by Dean Smith and only Dean Smith, who also killed the North-South Doubkleheader). But if you are going to wish for the impossible, why not wish for the return of the Dixie Classic -- a far greater event than the Big Four.

It was an eight-team tournament built around the Big Four teams. On the first night, each Big Four team faced a strong national opponent. We often got Big Four matchups in the semifinals and/or finals, but you also got a lot of great intersectional games too.

BTW: The Big Four Tournament didn't open the season. Well, it did once (1976-77) in its 11-year history. It moved around a lot in December and was twice played in early January.

The Dixie Classic, on the other hand, was always played the week between Christmas and New Year's.

[hallcity]

I'd rather see home and homes with UK and KU but it's not happening. The TV revenues go to the conference unless it's a neutral site game so there's no incentive for Duke to schedule home and homes. Going to a 20 game conference season makes it even tougher to schedule tough nonconference games anywhere. The kids want to play the big games but there's only so many you can realistically expect them to play. The priority has to go to getting ready fir conference play.

[22JumpShots]

Under the rules, a team could play a max of 40 games (as Duke did under some slightly different rules in 1986). Kentucky would have been 40-0 had they won out in 2015.

You are right that the expanded ACC Tournament could change things. It's theoretically possible to get FIVE games in the ACC Tournament -- possible, but unlikely. But legally, a team could play 31 regular season games, finish in the bottom six of the ACC (getting five tourney games) and win the NCAA -- getting to a max of 42 games.

Thank you for clearing that up for me! Definitely unlikely, but interesting none-the-less.

[Olympic Fan]

Thank you for clearing that up for me! Definitely unlikely, but interesting none-the-less.

Actually, I was thinking -- it's possible (but extremely unlikely to do as I said -- play 31 regular season games and finish in the bottom six of the ACC. Then get to the finals of the ACC Tournament. That's 36 games. Then that team could be put in an NCAA play-in game in Dayton and have to win seven games to win the title.

So under current rules, a team COULD get to 43 games.

But that's very, VERY unlikely.

[YmoBeThere]

I'm not sure that the Big Four resonates with many current fans. It was gone by the time I was on campus, I'd rather see the return of home and home intersectional matchups.

[throatybeard]

Why would we want to play the cheaters more often? I find myself wishing the SEC will eventually pick off them and one of the Virginia schools.

[Ima Facultiwyfe]

Great idea: Duke, WFU, NSCU and a guest team every year. For year 1, I'll nominate inviting Syracuse and playing it in Greensboro. :D

Deac, you crack me up! Bless your heart.
Love, Ima

[OldPhiKap]

I nominate Davidson as the fourth. Good school, clean program. Lots to respect. Bob McKillop is probably the best coach in the state outside of K.

[DukePA]

I nominate Davidson as the fourth. Good school, clean program. Lots to respect. Bob McKillop is probably the best coach in the state outside of K.

Better yet, let the cheaters leave the ACC and have Davidson take their place. :D

[OldPhiKap]

Better yet, let the cheaters leave the ACC and have Davidson take their place. :D

If that is in the form of a motion, I second it and call the question.

[Olympic Fan]

I nominate Davidson as the fourth. Good school, clean program. Lots to respect. Bob McKillop is probably the best coach in the state outside of K.

FWIW, long before anybody every talked about the Big Four, newspapers in this state referred to the Big Five -- Duke, the Cheats, NC State, Wake and Davidson. These were the five North Carolina teams in the old Southern Conference. When the ACC was formed in the spring of 1953, Davidson was left out of the new league and the Big Four was born.

[fuse]

If I had the money and the connections, it would be awesome to revive the Dixie Classic. Since I have neither, I’ll just pile on- great idea, wonder who could make it happen?

[BandAlum83]

I thought it was a shame when they canceled the Big Four, it was a great way to kick off the season in high gear. My first Big Four was as a freshman at Duke in '79, Gminski's senior year. It was canceled shortly after that. I've heard the coaches didn't like having to play rivalry games that early.

In the Duke-OAD era, I suppose many of us would like to see the team have a few months to gel before taking on UNC.

That was my freshman year as well. I joined the band the following year, but I did go to Greensboro for the Big 4 my freshman year with a friend who was a sophomore. Spent the night in Greensboro (it was, of course, a 2 day event) and studied in the UNCG library.

The atmosphere was electric in the coliseum, and Duke did win the event by beating the cheats 86 - 74.

I met a real sweetie from Carolina also......

But in the days of no social media or cell phones, it was like ships passing in the night :(

[PackMan97]

Maybe we could make the fourth school rotate among the other universities or colleges in NC? It would be great to see Charlotte, UNC-W, UNC-G, App State or other institutes of higher learning match up against State, Wake and Duke.

[devildeac]

Great idea: Duke, WFU, NSCU and a guest team every year. For year 1, I'll nominate inviting Syracuse and playing it in Greensboro. :D


Maybe we could make the fourth school rotate among the other universities or colleges in NC? It would be great to see Charlotte, UNC-W, UNC-G, App State or other institutes of higher learning match up against State, Wake and Duke.

This idea would also work.

Great minds and all that stuff...

;)

[jv001]

Maybe we could make the fourth school rotate among the other universities or colleges in NC? It would be great to see Charlotte, UNC-W, UNC-G, App State or other institutes of higher learning match up against State, Wake and Duke.

Now, I really like that idea. Loved the Big Four Tournament back in the day. As bad as I disliked Cheat U, I'm going to miss the rivalry.:

( :( GoDuke!

[Devil in the Blue Dress]

The Big Four Tournament lasted 10 years. Before that it was the Dixie Classic Tournament (1949 - 1960) which included the big four playing four other teams from across the county. The tournament lasted 3 days and was played after Christmas in Reynolds Coliseum. NC State won more titles than any other team... not a surprise with Everett Case coaching.

Case can be credited with raising the bar for college basketball in NC and creating an upward spiral of competition which forced the teams in the state to upgrade their programs. One of his former players was Vic Bubas who went on to bring considerable national attention to Duke while the NC State program began a gradual decline.

A point shaving scandal in 1961 involving some players from NC State and UNC ended the tournament's run. Some folks continue to debate and disagree about which UNC players were involved.

[budwom]

Caution, all those glittering sweater vests could cause seizures.

[Doria]

This time they can be on television. I still want to see a complete home-and-home within the conference, too. I know the reasons not do and just don't care.

I totally want that, too. At least with the traditional old ACC teams. I’ll trade the guys down the road for FSU or something. Even if not, I’d still like a home and home against NCSU and WF. Ridiculous we keep the only one I dislike...

[jimsumner]

The Big Four Tournament lasted 10 years. Before that it was the Dixie Classic Tournament (1949 - 1960) which included the big four playing four other teams from across the county. The tournament lasted 3 days and was played after Christmas in Reynolds Coliseum. NC State won more titles than any other team... not a surprise with Everett Case coaching.

Case can be credited with raising the bar for college basketball in NC and creating an upward spiral of competition which forced the teams in the state to upgrade their programs. One of his former players was Vic Bubas who went on to bring considerable national attention to Duke while the NC State program began a gradual decline.

A point shaving scandal in 1961 involving some players from NC State and UNC ended the tournament's run. Some folks continue to debate and disagree about which UNC players were involved.

There was a gap of a decade or so between the demise of the Dixie Classic and the establishment of the Big Four Tournament. For much of that time Duke and Wake Forest played a non-conference game early in the season, before meeting twice in conference play and frequently in the ACC Tournament.

I am unaware of any controversy involving the identity of an UNC players involved in the point-shaving. Lou Brown (no relation to Larry) was a go-between putting players and gamblers together. Doug Moe met with gamblers and turned them down but did not report the meeting and did accept "traveling" money for attending the meeting.

No UNC player actually shaved points. Four NC State players did shave points.

Adding two more high-profile ACC games makes the re-establishment of either the Dixie Classic or the Big Four about as likely as reinstituting the center jump after each made basket. Coaches want more cupcakes not less.

[Wander]

I'd rather see home and homes with UK and KU but it's not happening.

Yeah, as long as we're just wildly expressing desires for schedules that will never happen, I'll put my vote in to have a true home game with Kentucky, Kansas, Arizona, UCLA, Gonzaga, or Michigan State every single year, a true road game with one of those same teams every year, a true home game and a true road game with a mid-level non-ACC power 5 team every year, and a true home game and a true road game with a good non-power team like Wichita State every year.

[NSDukeFan]

That was my freshman year as well. ...


I met a real sweetie from Carolina also...
... :(

Probably for the best. Good chance she would have cheated.

[sagegrouse]

Yeah, as long as we're just wildly expressing desires for schedules that will never happen, I'll put my vote in to have a true home game with Kentucky, Kansas, Arizona, UCLA, Gonzaga, or Michigan State every single year, a true road game with one of those same teams every year, a true home game and a true road game with a mid-level non-ACC power 5 team every year, and a true home game and a true road game with a good non-power team like Wichita State every year.

ESPN, CBS and the other networks that broadcast hoops agree with you. Basketball schedules for the top teams should be a lot tougher that they are now.

[BandAlum83]

Probably for the best. Good chance she would have cheated.

ROTFLMAO. Thank you for that!