How to handle Carolina's cheating on the DBR Boards

[JasonEvans]

In the interests of transparency, we wanted to let the community know about the following...

The DBR Mod team has had a long discussion about how to handle discussion of UNC and the cheating scandal. There are, understandably, many Duke fans who feel bitter anger at the decades of unrepentant cheating involving Carolina (as well as the school’s decision to refuse to own up to their bad deeds and take punishment). But, it is also understandable that there are many Duke fans who want to have a rational discussion about the Heels (a prominent team in the ACC race) without having said discussion devolve into taunts, name-calling, and anger.
So, in order to maintain the DBR’s high standards of both decorum and rational conversation, we want to lay out the following thoughts/rules from the mod team.

1. Carolina is no different from any other ACC team. Like we've done in the past, the only UNC games that warrant their own thread on the DBR will be those games with Duke (and possibly special threads when they get shellacked, after the fact) or if there is significant news about the team. They are no different from any other ACC team in this regard. We will not allow more than 1 thread for anything else about Carolina on the front page of the forum. We have closed the one started to talk about the pre-season Carolina team, as it has served its purpose.

2. Whining about cheating. We don't want to look like IC. If your thought works into and advances the conversation, that's fine. But some of what we read on the UNC Skates thread was clearly venting and repetitive rants. As in all other threads, you must bring something new to the conversation. We all know they cheated. There's absolutely nothing we can do to change the NCAA's refusal to punish them. Our community prides itself on being a cut above other message boards; we don't allow rants and vents on other topics, so we won't allow it on UNC cheating. We all feel angry about the NCAA's decision. But bringing it up in every thread, multiple times, just makes our community look petty.


Imagine a thread like this:

* So what do you think about Duke playing so much zone this year?
* Lance Thomas bought all that jewelry, something nefarious went on with him. Bring down the banner.
* Whatever. So, will the freshmen be able to play much M2M this year?
* Cory Magette -- D.o.o.k knew. Should have been punished.
* But really, about the defensive sets.
* Ratface runs a dirty program.

Sounds like IC, right? How is that any different than:

* What about those defending national champions that we'll play twice this year. Think they'll be any good?
* Lyin', stinkin' Cheaters. Bring down the banners.
* Whatever. Who do you think will be the best player this year?
* Paper classes. Dean knew. Should have been punished.
* But really, about the opponent we'll face twice this year.
* Cheaters. For decades. Still do.


3. Signatures and Avatars. Our community is a creative bunch, and it's only a matter of time (meaning about 14 nanoseconds) before someone decides to use their signature as a soapbox. Signatures and avatars are subject to the same posted rules. Please keep it family friendly. If you despise Carolina that much, we respectfully request that you do not use their logo or symbols at all -- don't give them any more airtime. This is a Duke board, so we would prefer that you remain pro-Duke with messages you attach to your name. You may put something in your signature if you feel strongly -- but it must adhere to the posting guidelines and not be visually noxious for other readers when scrolling through a thread (including, but not limited to, limiting your font size, colors, and the total length of your message).

4. Threads on the scandal. As we've done in the past, if there is a significant new development on the Carolina scandal, a new thread can be opened with new information. No new information means no new threads. The last thread devolved into gratuitous bashing, which we allowed for a while to collectively work through our reactions. It has served its purpose. We've now got some awesome Duke basketball to talk about; we can move on. Note that moving on does NOT mean forgetting. It does NOT mean that we condone what they did. It does mean that we choose the high road and to support OUR team. (Don't you just hate it when they bring up the long-dead negative Duke stories?) This topic is becoming divisive and a distraction from our season. Let's take a break for a while and focus on the reason why we joined this board: Duke Basketball.

So, what does all this mean?
At the moment, it means Carolina talk is confined to the “This Week in the ACC” threads, just like for any other ACC team. We would ask that you keep mentions of the scandal/cheating toned down a bit. If there is a clear opportunity to bring it up that seems to be in the context of a natural conversation, that is fine, but don’t just reflexively say “cheaters!!” every time you see the letters U-N-C strung together. If the mod team finds you are continually bringing up the scandal and will not drop it, you may find yourself getting a Repetitive Rant infraction, which is one of the more serious infractions we hand out and quite often results in a “time out” from reading or posting to the DBR.

We appreciate the community holding itself to high standards and love that you guys largely make the mod team’s job very easy. Thanks for understanding. As always, if you have questions or concerns about this or any other issue related to moderation, feel free to post a note or to PM one of us.

Sincerely,


The DBR Boards Moderation Team

[BLPOG]

I think the COI ruling announcement was on October 13. Today is December 6. I have a lot of respect for the DBR moderators, but I think that, given the scope and implications of everything that happened, these measures are a bit premature. I'll be avoiding any discussion of that team.

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

In the interests of transparency, we wanted to let the community know about the following...

The DBR Mod team has had a long discussion about how to handle discussion of UNC and the cheating scandal. There are, understandably, many Duke fans who feel bitter anger at the decades of unrepentant cheating involving Carolina (as well as the school’s decision to refuse to own up to their bad deeds and take punishment). But, it is also understandable that there are many Duke fans who want to have a rational discussion about the Heels (a prominent team in the ACC race) without having said discussion devolve into taunts, name-calling, and anger.
So, in order to maintain the DBR’s high standards of both decorum and rational conversation, we want to lay out the following thoughts/rules from the mod team.

1. Carolina is no different from any other ACC team. Like we've done in the past, the only UNC games that warrant their own thread on the DBR will be those games with Duke (and possibly special threads when they get shellacked, after the fact) or if there is significant news about the team. They are no different from any other ACC team in this regard. We will not allow more than 1 thread for anything else about Carolina on the front page of the forum. We have closed the one started to talk about the pre-season Carolina team, as it has served its purpose.

2. Whining about cheating. We don't want to look like IC. If your thought works into and advances the conversation, that's fine. But some of what we read on the UNC Skates thread was clearly venting and repetitive rants. As in all other threads, you must bring something new to the conversation. We all know they cheated. There's absolutely nothing we can do to change the NCAA's refusal to punish them. Our community prides itself on being a cut above other message boards; we don't allow rants and vents on other topics, so we won't allow it on UNC cheating. We all feel angry about the NCAA's decision. But bringing it up in every thread, multiple times, just makes our community look petty.


Imagine a thread like this:


Sounds like IC, right? How is that any different than:



3. Signatures and Avatars. Our community is a creative bunch, and it's only a matter of time (meaning about 14 nanoseconds) before someone decides to use their signature as a soapbox. Signatures and avatars are subject to the same posted rules. Please keep it family friendly. If you despise Carolina that much, we respectfully request that you do not use their logo or symbols at all -- don't give them any more airtime. This is a Duke board, so we would prefer that you remain pro-Duke with messages you attach to your name. You may put something in your signature if you feel strongly -- but it must adhere to the posting guidelines and not be visually noxious for other readers when scrolling through a thread (including, but not limited to, limiting your font size, colors, and the total length of your message).

4. Threads on the scandal. As we've done in the past, if there is a significant new development on the Carolina scandal, a new thread can be opened with new information. No new information means no new threads. The last thread devolved into gratuitous bashing, which we allowed for a while to collectively work through our reactions. It has served its purpose. We've now got some awesome Duke basketball to talk about; we can move on. Note that moving on does NOT mean forgetting. It does NOT mean that we condone what they did. It does mean that we choose the high road and to support OUR team. (Don't you just hate it when they bring up the long-dead negative Duke stories?) This topic is becoming divisive and a distraction from our season. Let's take a break for a while and focus on the reason why we joined this board: Duke Basketball.

So, what does all this mean?
At the moment, it means Carolina talk is confined to the “This Week in the ACC” threads, just like for any other ACC team. We would ask that you keep mentions of the scandal/cheating toned down a bit. If there is a clear opportunity to bring it up that seems to be in the context of a natural conversation, that is fine, but don’t just reflexively say “cheaters!!” every time you see the letters U-N-C strung together. If the mod team finds you are continually bringing up the scandal and will not drop it, you may find yourself getting a Repetitive Rant infraction, which is one of the more serious infractions we hand out and quite often results in a “time out” from reading or posting to the DBR.

We appreciate the community holding itself to high standards and love that you guys largely make the mod team’s job very easy. Thanks for understanding. As always, if you have questions or concerns about this or any other issue related to moderation, feel free to post a note or to PM one of us.

Sincerely,


The DBR Boards Moderation Team

Thank you for this. These rules seem fair, and are clearly stated. Let's all move forward and support our team!

[rsvman]

Question: if somebody chooses to use the rubric UNCheats or the like during a conversation that otherwise fits the rules cited above, would that result in an infraction? I would certainly hope not, but wanted to clarify.

Thanks.

[uh_no]

Question: if somebody chooses to use the rubric UNCheats or the like during a conversation that otherwise fits the rules cited above, would that result in an infraction? I would certainly hope not, but wanted to clarify.

Thanks.

it seems to me it's no more out of line than other silly nicknames...like calimari, for instance.

[kAzE]

I've avoided the Carolina threads in general, and have avoided posting any rants, but I'm still going to toss in a good natured jab at Carolina when it fits within the conversation. Completely ignoring their transgressions is basically the same as the NCAA condoning them. Agreed starting new threads and excessive ranting is pointless, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't be able to call them the "Cheaters" or the school "UNCheat." They've earned that.

[PackMan97]

They've earned that.

...and they earned it the old fashioned way no less.

[CDu]

it seems to me it's no more out of line than other silly nicknames...like calimari, for instance.

As someone with an unusual (in the US, at least) name, I personally find the use of “calimari” instead of “Calipari” to be childish and unseemly.

[JasonEvans]

I am sorry if I was not clear about this...

Calling them "UNCheat" or "Cheater Hill" or "University of No Compliance" or anything like that is fine. I'm not sure it puts you post in the most mature arena, but it is not infraction worthy.

The point of the guidelines is to allow a normal conversation about the Tar Holes to occur without it being needlessly diverted by excessive conversation about the cheating scandal.

-Jason "I hope that makes sense to everyone" Evans

[kAzE]

I am sorry if I was not clear about this...

Calling them "UNCheat" or "Cheater Hill" or "University of No Compliance" or anything like that is fine. I'm not sure it puts you post in the most mature arena, but it is not infraction worthy.

The point of the guidelines is to allow a normal conversation about the Tar Heels to occur without it being needlessly diverted by excessive conversation about the cheating scandal.

-Jason "I hope that makes sense to everyone" Evans

Yeah, I actually don't say "UNCheat," it was just an example. This is an example (http://forums.dukebasketballreport.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1021240#post1021240) of how I think most of us throw in off-hand digs at UNC (basically fair game any time schoolwork or academics are mentioned).

By the way, "University of No Compliance" is freaking hilarious . . . first time I've seen that hahaha

[NYBri]

I am sorry if I was not clear about this...

Calling them "UNCheat" or "Cheater Hill" or "University of No Compliance" or anything like that is fine. I'm not sure it puts you post in the most mature arena, but it is not infraction worthy.

The point of the guidelines is to allow a normal conversation about the Tar Heels to occur without it being needlessly diverted by excessive conversation about the cheating scandal.

-Jason "I hope that makes sense to everyone" Evans

Glad to hear you aren’t policing immaturity. That would wipe out half my posts. :cool:

[rasputin]

Glad to hear you aren’t policing immaturity. That would wipe out half my posts. :cool:

And the wankerizer already takes care of the other half.

[AGDukesky]

I’m all for anything that lessens “special” attention for that program. One of my biggest pet peeves for sports fandom is people spending more time ranting about rivals than enjoying their own teams (even if that enjoyment involves complainting).

[jacone21]

How about puns? Shirley we can still use some malapropisms and puns to insult the cheaters.

[CameronBlue]

Glad to hear you aren’t policing immaturity. That would wipe out half my posts. :cool:

Yeah I get that, it's apropos that most posts about Carolina are wipe-worthy as well. It sells around here and I love it.

[BD80]

Glad to hear you aren’t policing immaturity. That would wipe out half my posts. :cool:

They can't make me capitalize unc. I won't do it. (Stomps foot) I won't.

[Sir Stealth]

Completely understand the rationale for this and respect all of the guidelines. But the false equivalency between the sample IC post and the one devolving into shots at UNC cheating is downright painful to me. Those do not sound remotely like the same thing for all sorts of reasons. I think we can keep a lid on UNC-related discussion without comparing our apples to their (rotten) oranges.

[Henderson]

This is a good move, Jason. At my age, and having been through the 1970's, my brain has reached a point where new information isn't additive anymore; it just chases out older information. It's a storage capacity problem. And I've built up hundreds of reasons to hate UNC-CH over the years. So if I had to dwell on the cheating scandal, I might stop hating Chicky Yonaker and Mike O'Koren. I don't want that.

[OldPhiKap]

In the interests of transparency, we wanted to let the community know about the following...

The DBR Mod team has had a long discussion about how to handle discussion of UNC and the cheating scandal. There are, understandably, many Duke fans who feel bitter anger at the decades of unrepentant cheating involving Carolina (as well as the school’s decision to refuse to own up to their bad deeds and take punishment). But, it is also understandable that there are many Duke fans who want to have a rational discussion about the Heels (a prominent team in the ACC race) without having said discussion devolve into taunts, name-calling, and anger.
So, in order to maintain the DBR’s high standards of both decorum and rational conversation, we want to lay out the following thoughts/rules from the mod team.

1. Carolina is no different from any other ACC team. Like we've done in the past, the only UNC games that warrant their own thread on the DBR will be those games with Duke (and possibly special threads when they get shellacked, after the fact) or if there is significant news about the team. They are no different from any other ACC team in this regard. We will not allow more than 1 thread for anything else about Carolina on the front page of the forum. We have closed the one started to talk about the pre-season Carolina team, as it has served its purpose.

2. Whining about cheating. We don't want to look like IC. If your thought works into and advances the conversation, that's fine. But some of what we read on the UNC Skates thread was clearly venting and repetitive rants. As in all other threads, you must bring something new to the conversation. We all know they cheated. There's absolutely nothing we can do to change the NCAA's refusal to punish them. Our community prides itself on being a cut above other message boards; we don't allow rants and vents on other topics, so we won't allow it on UNC cheating. We all feel angry about the NCAA's decision. But bringing it up in every thread, multiple times, just makes our community look petty.


Imagine a thread like this:


Sounds like IC, right? How is that any different than:



3. Signatures and Avatars. Our community is a creative bunch, and it's only a matter of time (meaning about 14 nanoseconds) before someone decides to use their signature as a soapbox. Signatures and avatars are subject to the same posted rules. Please keep it family friendly. If you despise Carolina that much, we respectfully request that you do not use their logo or symbols at all -- don't give them any more airtime. This is a Duke board, so we would prefer that you remain pro-Duke with messages you attach to your name. You may put something in your signature if you feel strongly -- but it must adhere to the posting guidelines and not be visually noxious for other readers when scrolling through a thread (including, but not limited to, limiting your font size, colors, and the total length of your message).

4. Threads on the scandal. As we've done in the past, if there is a significant new development on the Carolina scandal, a new thread can be opened with new information. No new information means no new threads. The last thread devolved into gratuitous bashing, which we allowed for a while to collectively work through our reactions. It has served its purpose. We've now got some awesome Duke basketball to talk about; we can move on. Note that moving on does NOT mean forgetting. It does NOT mean that we condone what they did. It does mean that we choose the high road and to support OUR team. (Don't you just hate it when they bring up the long-dead negative Duke stories?) This topic is becoming divisive and a distraction from our season. Let's take a break for a while and focus on the reason why we joined this board: Duke Basketball.

So, what does all this mean?
At the moment, it means Carolina talk is confined to the “This Week in the ACC” threads, just like for any other ACC team. We would ask that you keep mentions of the scandal/cheating toned down a bit. If there is a clear opportunity to bring it up that seems to be in the context of a natural conversation, that is fine, but don’t just reflexively say “cheaters!!” every time you see the letters U-N-C strung together. If the mod team finds you are continually bringing up the scandal and will not drop it, you may find yourself getting a Repetitive Rant infraction, which is one of the more serious infractions we hand out and quite often results in a “time out” from reading or posting to the DBR.

We appreciate the community holding itself to high standards and love that you guys largely make the mod team’s job very easy. Thanks for understanding. As always, if you have questions or concerns about this or any other issue related to moderation, feel free to post a note or to PM one of us.

Sincerely,


The DBR Boards Moderation Team

As someone who was pretty vocal about the other now-locked threads, I think this is fair and appropriate.

9F.

[devilsince1977]

This is a good move, Jason. At my age, and having been through the 1970's, my brain has reached a point where new information isn't additive anymore; it just chases out older information. It's a storage capacity problem. And I've built up hundreds of reasons to hate UNC-CH over the years. So if I had to dwell on the cheating scandal, I might stop hating Chicky Yonaker and Mike O'Koren. I don't want that.

Late in Yonakor's senior season; he showed up with a buzz cut. From my understanding, he heard he might be drafted and wanted to be prepared for it.

[Bob Green]

Late in Yonaker's senior season; he showed up with a buzz cut. From my understanding, he heard he might be drafted and wanted to be prepared for it.

This might be funny if the draft still existed in Yonakor's senior season, but it didn't.

[chrishoke]

I hate being a grown up.

[devilsince1977]

This might be funny if the draft still existed in Yonakor's senior season, but it didn't.


I knew that someone would bring this up. I think it makes it even better. No one in my house thought he would have been aware that the draft had been suspended.

[BD80]

Late in Yonakor's senior season; he showed up with a buzz cut. From my understanding, he heard he might be drafted and wanted to be prepared for it.


This might be funny if the draft still existed in Yonakor's senior season, but it didn't.


I knew that someone would bring this up. I think it makes it even better. No one in my house thought he would have been aware that the draft had been suspended.


https://youtu.be/lYodLUtySHk?t=26

[MarkD83]

With all these posts about Rich Yonaker it might be good to remember this...

http://www.slate.com/articles/sports/sports_nut/2016/03/the_air_ball_chant_is_the_greatest_taunt_in_sports _who_invented_it.html

[elvis14]

I'm all for having rules against ranting on and on about the Cheaters but can't we also have a rule that you aren't allowed to post about UNCheat without using "Cheaters", "UNCheat", University of kNown Cheaters, mentioning the decades of cheating, wheels for heels, HansPutz's Mom, etc.? That way if people really find it necessary to discuss the Cheaters on this board, we at least have the persistent reminder that Cheaters is who they are and taints everything UNCheat athletics does.

Once they bought their way out of it, I've lost all tolerance and pretense of civility and I think I'd rather get infractions than post anything that promotes or legitimizes those cheating wankers.

[OldPhiKap]

I'm all for having rules against ranting on and on about the Cheaters but can't we also have a rule that you aren't allowed to post about UNCheat without using "Cheaters", "UNCheat", University of kNown Cheaters, mentioning the decades of cheating, wheels for heels, HansPutz's Mom, etc.? That way if people really find it necessary to discuss the Cheaters on this board, we at least have the persistent reminder that Cheaters is who they are and taints everything UNCheat athletics does.

Once they bought their way out of it, I've lost all tolerance and pretense of civility and I think I'd rather get infractions than post anything that promotes or legitimizes those cheating wankers.

I’ve just been calling them “the Bastards” since the NCAA decision, but will try to be more civil by merely referring to them as the “9Fers”

I refuse to type any name that has “University” or a “U” because that is an insult to schools that try to do things the right way.

I trust that is acceptable, or I’m sure I will get dings if it’s not.

[Duke79UNLV77]

I agree that a rule that prohibits any reference to cheating is a white washing of history. OJ may have been acquitted, but his life was never the same because most of the world knew he was guilty. It would double down on the injustice to have to pretend the cheating never happened, even if it should be allowed to derail every thread.

[throatybeard]

I don't really see how they're worth discussing at all any longer.

[75Crazie]

I refuse to type any name that has “University” or a “U” because that is an insult to schools that try to do things the right way.
A fellow Duke friend of mine refused to put the 'U' in 'UNLV' back in the 90s, because as he said "there is no 'U' in 'NLV'". I think about that constantly now when trying to figure out how to type 'UNC'. Just leaving the 'U' out causes a reference issue between the institution and the state. 'uNC' doesn't quite make it either. 'UNCheat' seems to be the best term of a bad lot.

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

I agree that a rule that prohibits any reference to cheating is a white washing of history. OJ may have been acquitted, but his life was never the same because most of the world knew he was guilty. It would double down on the injustice to have to pretend the cheating never happened, even if it should be allowed to derail every thread.

I had an employee a few years ago who stole thousands of dollars from my business. My partners and I debated whether or not to press charges, or just have the entire debacle over and done with (he admitted to it, paid us back in full). We decided not to involve the police, for several reasons, but one of those was that we didn't want 2015 to be defined as The Year An Employee Stole From Us. It would have meant months of working with cops and lawyers, potentially a court case, etc. Instead, we moved forward and had a fantastic sales year, with double digit growth.

I don't want this basketball season to be The Year UNC Skated on The Scandal. I want this to be The Year K Got a Sixth Ring.

[howardlander]

I don't really see how they're worth discussing at all any longer.

Totally agreed. I'm a Duke grad (Trinity 81) who later went to grad school at UNC, and have been happily working there for 12 + years. I do interesting work with great people. But their sports teams have become completely irrelevant to me. When they won the title last year, I wasn't bothered a bit. Would I have preferred they lost? Yeah, sure, but it didn't really matter much one way or the other.

Howard

[Henderson]

I refuse to type any name that has “University” or a “U” because that is an insult to schools that try to do things the right way.



I predict a busy future for you, my friend. You'll need to make a list of athletic cheat schools and condemn their "U" status one by one. UK, SMU, UL, Miami U. Others. Sounds exhausting.

Of course, I might be persuaded by a "special place in hell" tweet.

[Duke79UNLV77]

I had an employee a few years ago who stole thousands of dollars from my business. My partners and I debated whether or not to press charges, or just have the entire debacle over and done with (he admitted to it, paid us back in full). We decided not to involve the police, for several reasons, but one of those was that we didn't want 2015 to be defined as The Year An Employee Stole From Us. It would have meant months of working with cops and lawyers, potentially a court case, etc. Instead, we moved forward and had a fantastic sales year, with double digit growth.

I don't want this basketball season to be The Year UNC Skated on The Scandal. I want this to be The Year K Got a Sixth Ring.

Oops. I had a typo. I meant it should not be allowed to derail every thread. On the other hand, I don't think any and all reference to the scandal should be prohibited. That would be whitewashing history. Personally, my way of not forgetting, but not letting it consume me, is not to watch any unc basketball any more except if they are playing Duke.

[BandAlum83]

I had an employee a few years ago who stole thousands of dollars from my business. My partners and I debated whether or not to press charges, or just have the entire debacle over and done with (he admitted to it, paid us back in full). We decided not to involve the police, for several reasons, but one of those was that we didn't want 2015 to be defined as The Year An Employee Stole From Us. It would have meant months of working with cops and lawyers, potentially a court case, etc. Instead, we moved forward and had a fantastic sales year, with double digit growth.

I don't want this basketball season to be The Year UNC Skated on The Scandal. I want this to be The Year K Got a Sixth Ring.

YES!!!!! A thousand times YES!!!!!

[PackMan97]

I don't want this basketball season to be The Year UNC Skated on The Scandal. I want this to be The Year K Got a Sixth Ring.

Don't you mean where NC State has another Cinderella run and wins their third title?

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

Don't you mean where NC State has another Cinderella run and wins their third title?

*crickets*

[MarkD83]

I don't want this basketball season to be The Year UNC Skated on The Scandal. I want this to be The Year K Got a Sixth Ring.

And what if the 9fers make the final four this year like they did the last two years when they should have been on probation?

The whole world needs to continue to know they are cheaters and as far as we know they are still cheating. Bubba even had a quote I saw yesterday that they need to regain everyone's trust. That should take about 20+ years and a self admission that they cheated.

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

And what if the 9fers make the final four this year like they did the last two years when they should have been on probation?

The whole world needs to continue to know they are cheaters and as far as we know they are still cheating. Bubba even had a quote I saw yesterday that they need to regain everyone's trust. That should take about 20+ years and a self admission that they cheated.

Well, I am just offering my perspective. I don't fault anyone shining a spotlight on UNC, I just prefer to pay them no mind whatsoever.

[jv001]

I can't wait until Elementary School of NC(ESNC) comes to visit Cameron. I'm hoping the Crazies are allowed to be creative with their signs and shout outs. But I will not be surprised if Coach K does not allow it. GoDuke!

[PackMan97]

I can't wait until Elementary School of NC(ESNC) comes to visit Cameron. I'm hoping the Crazies are allowed to be creative with their signs and shout outs. But I will not be surprised if Coach K does not allow it. GoDuke!

No need to be creative. Every time the cheaters have the ball a simple chant of "Cheaters" should rock Cameron.

[TKG]

No need to be creative. Every time the cheaters have the ball a simple chant of "Cheaters" should rock Cameron.

K will never allow that to happen.

[BLPOG]

K will never allow that to happen.

You're right and I don't understand that at all.

[BD80]

I can't wait until Elementary School of NC(ESNC) comes to visit Cameron. I'm hoping the Crazies are allowed to be creative with their signs and shout outs. But I will not be surprised if Coach K does not allow it. GoDuke!

Signs? What good would that do?

As if tar heels can read .... sheesh.

[moonpie23]

hey, i've got an idea...how about we ban any mention of them at all !!...


NO! THEY ARE NOT JUST LIKE "ANY OTHER ACC TEAM"...they SCREWED EVERY OTHER ACC Team for 18plus years and now we need to just accept it and "move on"? what is this? the year of just ignoring the most egregious behavior EVER, just cause they won?

how about we write the script that changes any variation of their name to "they're a bunch of wankers,they're a bunch of wankers,they're a bunch of wankers,they're a bunch of wankers,they're a bunch of wankers,!"


crimminy

[OldPhiKap]

NO! THEY ARE NOT JUST LIKE "ANY OTHER ACC TEAM"[/I][/B]...they SCREWED EVERY OTHER ACC Team for 18plus years and now we need to just accept it and "move on"? what is this? the year of just ignoring the most egregious behavior EVER, just cause they won?



Their fans who post here are not “just like any other ACC team” either. Truth.

[Dr. Rosenrosen]

K will never allow that to happen.
A better alternative: Mock their pathetic “tar”...”heels” chant by having one side of Cameron shout “honor” and the other side shout “code”... that ought to get the point across without resorting to calling them cheaters.

[OldPhiKap]

A better alternative: Mock their pathetic “tar”...”heels” chant by having one side of Cameron shout “honor” and the other side shout “code”... that ought to get the point across without resorting to calling them cheaters.

“Paper”
.......”classes”
“Paper”
.......”classes”
“Paper”
.......”classes”
“Paper”
.......”classes”


Or, pointing to benches:

“Class”
...........”no class”
“Class”
...........”no class”
“Class”
...........”no class”
“Class”
...........”no class”

[Dr. Rosenrosen]

^^^^

And someone has to get a giant Rashad McCants face in there too.

[fuse]

The more we respond to this thread, the more it stays up top...
Oh, wait :rolleyes:

Simply ignoring Carolina and denying attention is the best strategy.

Let me offer a poor Star Wars parody:

Roy: The NCAA wanted you to have this, when you were old enough, but UNC wouldn’t allow it.

Luke Maye: What is it?

Roy: A college diploma. This is the weapon of an educated person. Not as clumsy, or random as a GED- an elegant outcome of a more civilized age. Since the Helms Trophy, a college diploma has been a symbol of peace and justice in the Southern Association of Colleges and Schools. Before the dark times,...before the Wainstein Report.

[BD80]

The more we respond to this thread, the more it stays up top...
Oh, wait :rolleyes:

Simply ignoring Carolina and denying attention is the best strategy.

Let me offer a poor Star Wars parody:

Roy: The NCAA wanted you to have this, when you were old enough, but UNC wouldn’t allow it.

Luke Maye: What is it?

Roy: A college diploma. This is the weapon of an educated person. Not as clumsy, or random as a GED- an elegant outcome of a more civilized age. Since the Helms Trophy, a college diploma has been a symbol of peace and justice in the Southern Association of Colleges and Schools. Before the dark times,...before the Wainstein Report.


tar heels liked Jar-Jar Binks ...

[left_hook_lacey]

The irony of this thread and it's original purpose is golden. :cool:

[devildeac]

“Paper”
...”classes”
“Paper”
...”classes”
“Paper”
...”classes”
“Paper”
...”classes”


Or, pointing to benches:

“Class”
....”no class”
“Class”
....”no class”
“Class”
....”no class”
“Class”
....”no class”

Tweak to the first suggestion: pa-per class-es, clap/clap/clap-clap-clap

You're a great set-up guy. And finisher, too. ;)

The 2nd one has been performed before but I can't place the game/school. VT maybe referring to their umm, excessively physical play/fouling?

[devildeac]

The more we respond to this thread, the more it stays up top...
Oh, wait :rolleyes:

Simply ignoring Carolina and denying attention is the best strategy.

Let me offer a poor Star Wars parody:

Roy: The NCAA wanted you to have this, when you were old enough, but UNC wouldn’t allow it.

Luke Maye: What is it?

Roy: A college diploma. This is the weapon of an educated person. Not as clumsy, or random as a GED- an elegant outcome of a more civilized age. Since the Helms Trophy, a college diploma has been a symbol of peace and justice in the Southern Association of Colleges and Schools. Before the dark times,...before the Wainstein Report.

Great idea/theme but it's too long for a chant and it would never fit on a sign/poster. ;)

[OldPhiKap]

You're a great set-up guy. And finisher, too. ;)



So says my bartender.

[JasonEvans]

In the interests of transparency, we wanted to let the community know about the following...

The DBR Mod team has had a long discussion about how to handle discussion of UNC and the cheating scandal. There are, understandably, many Duke fans who feel bitter anger at the decades of unrepentant cheating involving Carolina (as well as the school’s decision to refuse to own up to their bad deeds and take punishment). But, it is also understandable that there are many Duke fans who want to have a rational discussion about the Heels (a prominent team in the ACC race) without having said discussion devolve into taunts, name-calling, and anger.
So, in order to maintain the DBR’s high standards of both decorum and rational conversation, we want to lay out the following thoughts/rules from the mod team.

1. Carolina is no different from any other ACC team. Like we've done in the past, the only UNC games that warrant their own thread on the DBR will be those games with Duke (and possibly special threads when they get shellacked, after the fact) or if there is significant news about the team. They are no different from any other ACC team in this regard. We will not allow more than 1 thread for anything else about Carolina on the front page of the forum. We have closed the one started to talk about the pre-season Carolina team, as it has served its purpose.

2. Whining about cheating. We don't want to look like IC. If your thought works into and advances the conversation, that's fine. But some of what we read on the UNC Skates thread was clearly venting and repetitive rants. As in all other threads, you must bring something new to the conversation. We all know they cheated. There's absolutely nothing we can do to change the NCAA's refusal to punish them. Our community prides itself on being a cut above other message boards; we don't allow rants and vents on other topics, so we won't allow it on UNC cheating. We all feel angry about the NCAA's decision. But bringing it up in every thread, multiple times, just makes our community look petty.


Imagine a thread like this:


Sounds like IC, right? How is that any different than:



3. Signatures and Avatars. Our community is a creative bunch, and it's only a matter of time (meaning about 14 nanoseconds) before someone decides to use their signature as a soapbox. Signatures and avatars are subject to the same posted rules. Please keep it family friendly. If you despise Carolina that much, we respectfully request that you do not use their logo or symbols at all -- don't give them any more airtime. This is a Duke board, so we would prefer that you remain pro-Duke with messages you attach to your name. You may put something in your signature if you feel strongly -- but it must adhere to the posting guidelines and not be visually noxious for other readers when scrolling through a thread (including, but not limited to, limiting your font size, colors, and the total length of your message).

4. Threads on the scandal. As we've done in the past, if there is a significant new development on the Carolina scandal, a new thread can be opened with new information. No new information means no new threads. The last thread devolved into gratuitous bashing, which we allowed for a while to collectively work through our reactions. It has served its purpose. We've now got some awesome Duke basketball to talk about; we can move on. Note that moving on does NOT mean forgetting. It does NOT mean that we condone what they did. It does mean that we choose the high road and to support OUR team. (Don't you just hate it when they bring up the long-dead negative Duke stories?) This topic is becoming divisive and a distraction from our season. Let's take a break for a while and focus on the reason why we joined this board: Duke Basketball.

So, what does all this mean?
At the moment, it means Carolina talk is confined to the “This Week in the ACC” threads, just like for any other ACC team. We would ask that you keep mentions of the scandal/cheating toned down a bit. If there is a clear opportunity to bring it up that seems to be in the context of a natural conversation, that is fine, but don’t just reflexively say “cheaters!!” every time you see the letters U-N-C strung together. If the mod team finds you are continually bringing up the scandal and will not drop it, you may find yourself getting a Repetitive Rant infraction, which is one of the more serious infractions we hand out and quite often results in a “time out” from reading or posting to the DBR.

We appreciate the community holding itself to high standards and love that you guys largely make the mod team’s job very easy. Thanks for understanding. As always, if you have questions or concerns about this or any other issue related to moderation, feel free to post a note or to PM one of us.

Sincerely,


The DBR Boards Moderation Team

The Moderation Team thought it was time for folks to be reminded about the rules regarding UNC. Several of you have clearly broken the clear directions in this post.


We would ask that you keep mentions of the scandal/cheating toned down a bit. If there is a clear opportunity to bring it up that seems to be in the context of a natural conversation, that is fine, but don’t just reflexively say “cheaters!!” every time you see the letters U-N-C strung together. If the mod team finds you are continually bringing up the scandal and will not drop it, you may find yourself getting a Repetitive Rant infraction, which is one of the more serious infractions we hand out and quite often results in a “time out” from reading or posting to the DBR.

The mod team will be issuing infractions to some folks... you probably know who you are.

Additionally, I want to address the community reaction to a prominent UNC fan who posts here. If you read the thread about the Carolina loss to Wofford, several posters were basically calling out Wheat for not showing up after a Carolina loss. Then Wheat does show up and gives a very reasonable post discussing his perspective on why Carolina lost and he gets attacked left and right, often with taunts about the cheating scandal. Meanwhile, the mods are getting messages from Duke fans who whine about us allowing a Carolina posters to come to our board.

People, your conduct is extremely disappointing to many of us on the mod team. This is not how the DBR Boards work and you all know better. If you want to just bash Carolina and stick your fingers in your ears to any response to that bashing, then go somewhere else. That kind of conduct will not be allowed here. We hold ourselves to a higher standard here.

Thanks for understanding and being a productive and positive part of the conversation.

-Jason Evans

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

The Moderation Team thought it was time for folks to be reminded about the rules regarding UNC. Several of you have clearly broken the clear directions in this post.



The mod team will be issuing infractions to some folks... you probably know who you are.

Additionally, I want to address the community reaction to a prominent UNC fan who posts here. If you read the thread about the Carolina loss to Wofford, several posters were basically calling out Wheat for not showing up after a Carolina loss. Then Wheat does show up and gives a very reasonable post discussing his perspective on why Carolina lost and he gets attacked left and right, often with taunts about the cheating scandal. Meanwhile, the mods are getting messages from Duke fans who whine about us allowing a Carolina posters to come to our board.

People, your conduct is extremely disappointing to many of us on the mod team. This is not how the DBR Boards work and you all know better. If you want to just bash Carolina and stick your fingers in your ears to any response to that bashing, then go somewhere else. That kind of conduct will not be allowed here. We hold ourselves to a higher standard here.

Thanks for understanding and being a productive and positive part of the conversation.

-Jason Evans

It is a long time between games.

[rickshawboycall911]

who impinges on my right to free speech. Am I living in America or communist China where they block IP addresses if they dont like what you have to say??? Welcome to the age of the thought police

[OldPhiKap]

Then Wheat does show up and gives a very reasonable post discussing his perspective on why Carolina lost . . . .

But see, with true respect, that's not what happened. His first post was to bring up a Duke loss, and goad posters on this site:


You mean lose another conference game, right?

Sorry, but I couldn't resist that teed up comment from one of my biggest fans.

I do find it funny to see this thread after my attempt to talk UNC hoops here was pretty much shot down by the "we couldn't care less about UNC" crowd.

Many of you obviously care more than you want to admit.

I'm also heartened to see that some of you realize that one of the best things about college basketball is how unpredictable it can be. No one is immune to upset losses in college basketball.

UNC has a good team. Maybe not as strong as the past two years, but still a very good team that will make some noise.

(Emphasis in original)

The second post (now deleted) took a personal swipe at Throaty. The third post (also now deleted) took a very direct shot at Packman.

I have enjoyed this board for years, and hope I contribute in a somewhat acceptable way. I do believe, however, that as long as this poster takes digs at Duke or posters here the response will be predictable. So perhaps, and again I say this with respect, the problem isn't with the Duke posters here but the instigator who posts by different standards than all of our friends from State, UVa, and others seem to be able to meet.

I hope this came across as intended, which is a respectful response.

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

who impinges on my right to free speech. Am I living in America or communist China where they block IP addresses if they dont like what you have to say??? Welcome to the age of the thought police

Yeah, no. It's been a blast. See you around the cyberverse.

Why stop with China? You might as well go full Hitler on your way out the door.

[uh_no]

Yeah, no. It's been a blast. See you around the cyberverse.

Why stop with China? You might as well go full Hitler on your way out the door.

7947

[JasonEvans]

But see, with true respect, that's not what happened. His first post was to bring up a Duke loss, and goad posters on this site:

You know what... you are right. The mod team was so frustrated at the constant bleating about CheatersCheatersCheatersCheatersCheatersCheatersCh eatersCheatersCheatersCheaters that we bent over backwards a bit too far in defending Wheat in the above post. I am sorry for that. It is worth noting that Wheat's conduct in the Wofford thread did result in a fairly severe infraction being issued, so he has been punished for his role in this incident.

Thanks for correcting the record regarding the beginning of the latest imbroglio. I appreciate your help.

-Jason "a reminder for the community, when you see something that bothers you, report it... let the mods handle it" Evans

[Newton_14]

who impinges on my right to free speech. Am I living in America or communist China where they block IP addresses if they dont like what you have to say??? Welcome to the age of the thought police

This is a private forum. The 1st Amendment does not apply. The forum rules at the top of the forum do apply, but I suspect you have never read them.

[uh_no]

This is a private forum. The 1st Amendment does not apply. The forum rules at the top of the forum do apply, but I suspect you have never read them.

https://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/free_speech_2x.png

[OldPhiKap]

You know what... you are right. The mod team was so frustrated at the constant bleating about CheatersCheatersCheatersCheatersCheatersCheatersCh eatersCheatersCheatersCheaters that we bent over backwards a bit too far in defending Wheat in the above post. I am sorry for that. It is worth noting that Wheat's conduct in the Wofford thread did result in a fairly severe infraction being issued, so he has been punished for his role in this incident.

Thanks for correcting the record regarding the beginning of the latest imbroglio. I appreciate your help.

-Jason "a reminder for the community, when you see something that bothers you, report it... let the mods handle it" Evans

Y'all have a ridiculously difficult and thankless job, Jason. I greatly appreciate all of the efforts of the mod team, and apologize for sometimes being in the middle of things.

And to rickshaw, well -- You Ming ain't walking through that door any time soon.

[Truth&Justise]

who impinges on my right to free speech. Am I living in America or communist China where they block IP addresses if they dont like what you have to say??? Welcome to the age of the thought police

Can we give some year-end recognition for the best posts on this board? Because this made me laugh more than anything I've seen here this year.

In all seriousness, thank you to the mods for doing their best to keep the discussions here at a high-level.

[DukeDevil]

7947

Been laughing for 5 straight minutes. Every time it subsides, I see the south park reference, and keep laughing. Can't spork you though, gotta spread it around.

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

Been laughing for 5 straight minutes. Every time it subsides, I see the south park reference, and keep laughing. Can't spork you though, gotta spread it around.

Don't worry, I took care of it.

[Papa John]

Been laughing for 5 straight minutes. Every time it subsides, I see the south park reference, and keep laughing. Can't spork you though, gotta spread it around.

I also was able to spork uh_no on your (and my) behalf. Personally, I like his linked cartoon better than the South Park reference, but both serve to provide humor while imparting knowledge.

[Wheat/"/"/"]

But see, with true respect, that's not what happened. His first post was to bring up a Duke loss, and goad posters on this site:



(Emphasis in original)

The second post (now deleted) took a personal swipe at Throaty. The third post (also now deleted) took a very direct shot at Packman.

I have enjoyed this board for years, and hope I contribute in a somewhat acceptable way. I do believe, however, that as long as this poster takes digs at Duke or posters here the response will be predictable. So perhaps, and again I say this with respect, the problem isn't with the Duke posters here but the instigator who posts by different standards than all of our friends from State, UVa, and others seem to be able to meet.

I hope this came across as intended, which is a respectful response.

Just to be clear...

I didn't instigate anything. I responded to Throaty.

My post regarding Throtybeard was in response to his comment that I'd only show up to troll after Duke loses the first conference game...forgetting that they already had. It was low hanging fruit, what can I say? It was just a little friendly jab...in response to being labeled a troll.

I didn't even comment on the board after the BC loss, because I didn't get to see the game and had nothing to offer. I don't try to troll anyone.

I never made a second post regarding throaty that was deleted, not sure where you got that from.

The little sarcastic dig directed at Packman for always following my posts with the same regurgitated stuff over and over that I received an infraction for was on point. So be it.

[PackMan97]

DBRs board, DBRs rules. They do a great job finding the sweet spot between the almost anything goes, PackPride and the authoritarian Inside Carolina.

I value being a member of this community and will continue to work hard on keeping on the right side of the mods. My apologies for getting to close to the community guidelines and crossing them in some instances.

[alteran]

This is a private forum. The 1st Amendment does not apply. The forum rules at the top of the forum do apply, but I suspect you have never read them.

1st Amendment TOTALLY applies.

The government will not be hopping on here and censoring folks in any way. 😏

[OldPhiKap]

This is what happens when pfrduke is not here to start the weekly thread. Anarchy, gnashing of teeth, and full-on Godwin’s Law ramped up to eleven.

Come back to us soooooooooooon!

[JBDuke]

But see, with true respect, that's not what happened. His first post was to bring up a Duke loss, and goad posters on this site:



(Emphasis in original)

The second post (now deleted) took a personal swipe at Throaty. The third post (also now deleted) took a very direct shot at Packman.

I have enjoyed this board for years, and hope I contribute in a somewhat acceptable way. I do believe, however, that as long as this poster takes digs at Duke or posters here the response will be predictable. So perhaps, and again I say this with respect, the problem isn't with the Duke posters here but the instigator who posts by different standards than all of our friends from State, UVa, and others seem to be able to meet.

I hope this came across as intended, which is a respectful response.


You know what... you are right. The mod team was so frustrated at the constant bleating about CheatersCheatersCheatersCheatersCheatersCheatersCh eatersCheatersCheatersCheaters that we bent over backwards a bit too far in defending Wheat in the above post. I am sorry for that. It is worth noting that Wheat's conduct in the Wofford thread did result in a fairly severe infraction being issued, so he has been punished for his role in this incident.

Thanks for correcting the record regarding the beginning of the latest imbroglio. I appreciate your help.

-Jason "a reminder for the community, when you see something that bothers you, report it... let the mods handle it" Evans

Just to be clear, THIS (http://forums.dukebasketballreport.com/forums/showthread.php?41004-Wofford-79-UNC-75&p=1025366#post1025366)was Wheat's first post in the Wofford loss thread:


That was an ugly game from UNC, they were just not mentally into it at the start. That's on Roy, and the upperclassmen, they've got to a better job with their focus. I think we'll see better effort today against OSU.

Wofford played well, and smaller shooting teams like that historically give UNC problems.

The main problem I saw was after the starters came out flat and didn't finish plays, the bench came in and looked flat as well. Bench players getting in games should never be flat, they should always have energy. Write it off to the exam week layoff or whatever, but it should never happen. I would hope the younger players learned a big lesson from that game.

To get a win, it turned out, Roy stayed with the bench too long in the 2nd half tying to get them to learn how to come back on their own and they failed to work together enough to get it done.

By the time Roy put the starters back in at the 12 minute mark, down 13 I think it was, they showed they had renewed focus but the mountain was too big to climb with Wofford continuing to play tough. Gotta give them credit for that.

An embarrassing loss for the Heels for sure, but one that they will move on from.

That post is a very reasonable contribution to the thread from a Carolina fan. It was respectful of the topic and shouldn't have provoked anything from those of you that post here and respect the Posting Guidelines. The post quoted by OPK was Wheat's SECOND post in the thread. I wish Wheat hadn't posted that one, but I also wish that several other folks hadn't provoked him with posts earlier in the thread.

[alteran]

I hear the request, and I guess I get it. Frankly, if it were enforced as written, it would be a bit over the top, but I don’t get that it’s being enforced entirely as written, unless I’m interpreting the language too rigidly. (Wouldn’t be the first time.)

For what it’s worth, of all the ways the discussion here could be improved, rules limiting calling out UNC for who they have very clearly chosen to be, well ... it seems an awfully weird hill for the DBR to choose to fight on.

IMHO, this is a problem that will go away on its own over time. Personally, they’ll always be the cheaters to me, but aside from that, I think I’m done ranting about it. In six months, pretty much everyone will be done ranting about it— it’s just too much energy. There will be a few maniacs left that are never going to stop, I say deal with them like we deal with any other maniacs, rather than adding special rules protecting UNC.

We get enough of that from the NCAA. 😏

JMHO.

[Olympic Fan]

You know what... you are right. The mod team was so frustrated at the constant bleating about CheatersCheatersCheatersCheatersCheatersCheatersCh eatersCheatersCheatersCheaters that we bent over backwards a bit too far in defending Wheat in the above post. I am sorry for that. It is worth noting that Wheat's conduct in the Wofford thread did result in a fairly severe infraction being issued, so he has been punished for his role in this incident.

Thanks for correcting the record regarding the beginning of the latest imbroglio. I appreciate your help.

-Jason "a reminder for the community, when you see something that bothers you, report it... let the mods handle it" Evans

Jason, this is what I don't understand.

There is a lot of stuff on this board that I don't enjoy. I hate it when a thread I'm interested in gets derailed by the punsters. I hate the eternal minutes debate in the offseason. If I was a moderator, could I jump in and starting deleting the pun posts or the minutes debate. Could I kill the Beer thread because I don't drink beer?

So you don't like the CheatersCheatersCheaters posts ... it's my point that they cheated for 18 years (according to the Wainstein Report ... although there are hints that it went on longer) and then escaped punishment on the technicality that they reversed their admission that the courses were fraudulent that they made to the accreditation agency and suddenly declared that the courses were legitimate (even the ones created just for athletes by Debbie Crowder).

Some of us -- and I'm not the only one -- are not ready to let this go. When a UNC troll shows up on our board taunting Duke for a loss, I'm not going to let it pass. When I see a good Duke poster (and Bob Green is one of my favorites -- we share a love of Duke football) repeating the "Carolina Way" lie about Chris Washburn, I'm going to step in and put the Cheats' propaganda into context.

I've never understood why the mods go out of their way to protect a certain UNC fan who posts here (and this was not the first time he was trolling). Has he ever acknowledged his school's cheating? If so, I haven't seen it.

And while certain mods may not enjoy seeing constant references to the scandal, I love seeing them. Personally, I will continue to rip the most corrupt program in college basketball for its corruption until I'm banned or 18 years pass (the number of years we know they cheated).

I'm sorry if the mods don't like it.

[arnie]

Jason, this is what I don't understand.

There is a lot of stuff on this board that I don't enjoy. I hate it when a thread I'm interested in gets derailed by the punsters. I hate the eternal minutes debate in the offseason. If I was a moderator, could I jump in and starting deleting the pun posts or the minutes debate. Could I kill the Beer thread because I don't drink beer?

So you don't like the CheatersCheatersCheaters posts ... it's my point that they cheated for 18 years (according to the Wainstein Report ... although there are hints that it went on longer) and then escaped punishment on the technicality that they reversed their admission that the courses were fraudulent that they made to the accreditation agency and suddenly declared that the courses were legitimate (even the ones created just for athletes by Debbie Crowder).

Some of us -- and I'm not the only one -- are not ready to let this go. When a UNC troll shows up on our board taunting Duke for a loss, I'm not going to let it pass. When I see a good Duke poster (and Bob Green is one of my favorites -- we share a love of Duke football) repeating the "Carolina Way" lie about Chris Washburn, I'm going to step in and put the Cheats' propaganda into context.

I've never understood why the mods go out of their way to protect a certain UNC fan who posts here (and this was not the first time he was trolling). Has he ever acknowledged his school's cheating? If so, I haven't seen it.

And while certain mods may not enjoy seeing constant references to the scandal, I love seeing them. Personally, I will continue to rip the most corrupt program in college basketball for its corruption until I'm banned or 18 years pass (the number of years we know they cheated).

I'm sorry if the mods don't like it.
Excellent summary post- and you’re correct regarding the UNC troll poster. Has never acknowledged that UNC cheated; he kept saying he’d “review” the issues later. I’m with you, don’t know why mods pick on some issues and not on others.

[luvdahops]

Jason, this is what I don't understand.

There is a lot of stuff on this board that I don't enjoy. I hate it when a thread I'm interested in gets derailed by the punsters. I hate the eternal minutes debate in the offseason. If I was a moderator, could I jump in and starting deleting the pun posts or the minutes debate. Could I kill the Beer thread because I don't drink beer?

So you don't like the CheatersCheatersCheaters posts ... it's my point that they cheated for 18 years (according to the Wainstein Report ... although there are hints that it went on longer) and then escaped punishment on the technicality that they reversed their admission that the courses were fraudulent that they made to the accreditation agency and suddenly declared that the courses were legitimate (even the ones created just for athletes by Debbie Crowder).

Some of us -- and I'm not the only one -- are not ready to let this go. When a UNC troll shows up on our board taunting Duke for a loss, I'm not going to let it pass. When I see a good Duke poster (and Bob Green is one of my favorites -- we share a love of Duke football) repeating the "Carolina Way" lie about Chris Washburn, I'm going to step in and put the Cheats' propaganda into context.

I've never understood why the mods go out of their way to protect a certain UNC fan who posts here (and this was not the first time he was trolling). Has he ever acknowledged his school's cheating? If so, I haven't seen it.

And while certain mods may not enjoy seeing constant references to the scandal, I love seeing them. Personally, I will continue to rip the most corrupt program in college basketball for its corruption until I'm banned or 18 years pass (the number of years we know they cheated).

I'm sorry if the mods don't like it.

FWIW, I've been reading Wheat's posts on this board for some 20 years now. He is no troll. He is a passionate UNC fan who is pretty knowledgeable about hoops generally, but instinctively sees things through a Carolina Blue lens/bias, with all that goes along with that (e.g. preferences for a longer bench, playing two true bigs, more structure in the offense, etc.). And while that is frequently annoying and/or unsettling to many readers here, myself included at times, I do believe Wheat posts here in the spirit of sincere and reasonable debate, and genuinely believes he is offering an informed, alternative perspective. But none of us should expect him to be a punching bag, either.

[cato]

FWIW, I've been reading Wheat's posts on this board for some 20 years now. He is no troll. He is a passionate UNC fan who is pretty knowledgeable about hoops generally, but instinctively sees things through a Carolina Blue lens/bias, with all that goes along with that (e.g. preferences for a longer bench, playing two true bigs, more structure in the offense, etc.). And while that is frequently annoying and/or unsettling to many readers here, myself included at times, I do believe Wheat posts here in the spirit of sincere and reasonable debate, and genuinely believes he is offering an informed, alternative perspective. But none of us should expect him to be a punching bag, either.

FWIW, so have I. Reasonable minds can (and do) differ.

[devilseven]

FWIW, so have I. Reasonable minds can (and do) differ.

Read the title to the thread: How to handle Carolina's cheating. How does Wheat handle it? Silence.

[sagegrouse]

Jason, this is what I don't understand.

There is a lot of stuff on this board that I don't enjoy. I hate it when a thread I'm interested in gets derailed by the punsters. I hate the eternal minutes debate in the offseason. If I was a moderator, could I jump in and starting deleting the pun posts or the minutes debate. Could I kill the Beer thread because I don't drink beer?

So you don't like the CheatersCheatersCheaters posts ... it's my point that they cheated for 18 years (according to the Wainstein Report ... although there are hints that it went on longer) and then escaped punishment on the technicality that they reversed their admission that the courses were fraudulent that they made to the accreditation agency and suddenly declared that the courses were legitimate (even the ones created just for athletes by Debbie Crowder).

Some of us -- and I'm not the only one -- are not ready to let this go. When a UNC troll shows up on our board taunting Duke for a loss, I'm not going to let it pass. When I see a good Duke poster (and Bob Green is one of my favorites -- we share a love of Duke football) repeating the "Carolina Way" lie about Chris Washburn, I'm going to step in and put the Cheats' propaganda into context.

I've never understood why the mods go out of their way to protect a certain UNC fan who posts here (and this was not the first time he was trolling). Has he ever acknowledged his school's cheating? If so, I haven't seen it.

And while certain mods may not enjoy seeing constant references to the scandal, I love seeing them. Personally, I will continue to rip the most corrupt program in college basketball for its corruption until I'm banned or 18 years pass (the number of years we know they cheated).

I'm sorry if the mods don't like it.
Oly, I am not a Moderator, but I will offer my answer. Constant, repetitive complaining about UNC's cheating, without any new information, is a negative part of DBR. Riding herd on the UNC complaints raises the average quality of content on DBR.

I am happy to have fans of other ACC schools, including UNC, post here. Wheat has many good posts but also a few zingers that add nothing to the discussion. But why, for heavens' sakes, should Wheat admit to any wrong-doing at UNC? He has no first-hand knowledge; he didn't attend UNC; and the NCAA did not find that UNC's behavior warranted penalties (which is still hard to believe). Is this the initiation fee for fans of other schools to post on DBR?

[uh_no]

Read the title to the thread: How to handle Carolina's cheating. How does Wheat handle it? Silence.

so what?

nobody should be compelled to comment on an issue just because you think they should. his lack of comment there doesn't mean he can't have reasonable comment elsewhere.

[luvdahops]

so what?

nobody should be compelled to comment on an issue just because you think they should. his lack of comment there doesn't mean he can't have reasonable comment elsewhere.

Exactly. The guys comes here looking to talk basketball. Period. He's under no obligation to engage on anything else, no matter what anyone here thinks.

[Papa John]

Jason, this is what I don't understand.

There is a lot of stuff on this board that I don't enjoy. I hate it when a thread I'm interested in gets derailed by the punsters. I hate the eternal minutes debate in the offseason. If I was a moderator, could I jump in and starting deleting the pun posts or the minutes debate. Could I kill the Beer thread because I don't drink beer?

So you don't like the CheatersCheatersCheaters posts ... it's my point that they cheated for 18 years (according to the Wainstein Report ... although there are hints that it went on longer) and then escaped punishment on the technicality that they reversed their admission that the courses were fraudulent that they made to the accreditation agency and suddenly declared that the courses were legitimate (even the ones created just for athletes by Debbie Crowder).

Some of us -- and I'm not the only one -- are not ready to let this go. When a UNC troll shows up on our board taunting Duke for a loss, I'm not going to let it pass. When I see a good Duke poster (and Bob Green is one of my favorites -- we share a love of Duke football) repeating the "Carolina Way" lie about Chris Washburn, I'm going to step in and put the Cheats' propaganda into context.

I've never understood why the mods go out of their way to protect a certain UNC fan who posts here (and this was not the first time he was trolling). Has he ever acknowledged his school's cheating? If so, I haven't seen it.

And while certain mods may not enjoy seeing constant references to the scandal, I love seeing them. Personally, I will continue to rip the most corrupt program in college basketball for its corruption until I'm banned or 18 years pass (the number of years we know they cheated).

I'm sorry if the mods don't like it.

Here's my take, FWIW...

1. Wheat is often perceived as a troll on these boards, whether he recognizes it or not. Humans are, by nature, subjective animals, so we often view reality through a distorted lens, and I tend to think that Wheat truly believes that he isn't trolling when he actually is... much like journalists who claim to be 'objective' when objectivity in journalism is a pipe dream—one cannot eliminate one's own biases, one can only hope that one's biases don't distort the end product to the extreme... Personally, I believe that Wheat is not intentionally trying to troll DBR. He's simply trying to contribute in his own way to a discussion board that he respects, due in large part to both the membership and the moderation—this is a high-quality forum with very intelligent contributors.

2. I totally get where you're coming from with the "There is a lot of stuff on this board that I don't enjoy" comment. Personally, I come from the school of thought where the worldwide-web is a place where one needs a backbone and thick skin to survive—if you offer an opinion, you must be prepared to deal with others presenting opinions that are completely a odds with your own view, and you need to be able to do so without invoking Godwin's Law when you don't like an opposing viewpoint, or letting yourself get sucked into a pointless flame war with one [or more] moronic, vapid individuals.

That said...

3. When you decide to play in someone else's pool/backyard, I'm of the opinion that you need to acknowledge and respect the rules of the house, so to speak. If you don't like the rules of the house, then you're welcome to go play elsewhere... but,

4. I have long enjoyed your contributions to this board, Olympic Fan. I would not want to see you disappear for 18 years (or even 18 days, for that matter)... As ridiculous as internet discussion boards like DBR are in the grand scheme of things, I find myself visiting here on a daily basis for a brief respite from the pressures of life (be they loved ones dealing with life-threatening diseases to mere annoyances in the workplace), and it's the many different perspectives that folks like you provide that sometimes give me pause and allow me to see the world through a different lens, if only for a moment.

Not sure exactly what I'm trying to say, other than... Yeah, Wheat is often full of it (as many of us often are), and the mods are often too strict or lenient, depending upon the situation... Just try not to let it get you worked up too much—there's too much value here to throw the baby out with the bathwater!

[OldPhiKap]

DBR is in late season form. We normally don’t break out this level of “is Wheat a troll” discussion until early February or so.

From my perspective, which means little: he is obviously a very knowledgeable guy and I generally agree with his assessment of the Bastard’s players. I disagree strongly about Roy, but that is expected fair play. I do think Hank he likes to discuss hoops.

I also think, though, that he likes to stir things up. And on the heels of the NCAA fiasco, both he and the mods should realize that there is not a lot of appetite for that amongst many of the rank and file. He would do well, IMHO, to lay off of those this season. and the mods should recognize, again IMHO, that his little barbs are going to draw sharp rebukes no matter what warnings and infractions are given. There is a time and place for everything, and this is neither the time nor the place for those kinds of jabs. As I mentioned to a mod, the harsh response to that is predictable. And inevitable.

In short, I welcome all fans. Even those of the Bastards. But they should be realistic enough to know that there are a lot of emotions about their team at the moment, and they would be well advised to tread lightly.

Thus endeth my sermon, unsolicited though it was.

[Dr. Rosenrosen]

So perhaps, and again I say this with respect, the problem isn't with the Duke posters here but the instigator who posts by different standards than all of our friends from State, UVa, and others seem to be able to meet.
I want to reiterate this. We have several other regular posters here who support other schools, and their interactions with the DBR community never spark this kind of third grade playground fight. So, if the DBR community can enjoy posting with folks like Packman and Wahoo, where sometimes light jabs are traded without incident, why is it that so many of a certain unc fan’s posts generate so much consternation while other non-Duke fans’ posts do not? If I hung out on IC and trolled them with every 5th post, I’d last exactly 5 posts over there. (Ucchhh, the thought of it!) Anyway, with all due respect to the mods, I believe the question I posed is a simple one with a simple answer, if we choose to acknowledge it. My opinion, for what it’s worth. Which probably isn’t much.

[luvdahops]

The guys comes here looking to talk basketball. Period.

Anybody here really believe this??...

Sure...he has a right as much as any of us...but do you believe that’s why he’s here??

As someone who has been reading his posts for 20 years, not just the past few, I absolutely believe this. I wouldn't have said it otherwise.

[Olympic Fan]

Constant, repetitive complaining about UNC's cheating, without any new information, is a negative part of DBR. Riding herd on the UNC complaints raises the average quality of content on DBR.


Isn't that a matter of opinion?

To my mind, the constant puns that some posters find so fascinating are a negative part of DBR.

You seem to be suggesting that we forget UNC's 18 years of cheating and pretend it didn't happen. I find "constant repetitive complaining about UNC's cheating" enjoyable -- especially when it's directed at a UNC troll who has consistently refused to acknowledge his team's cheating -- come on, even Bubba Cunningham acknowledged that to any reasonable person, UNC cheated. Maybe if UNC had been convicted and punished as they should have been, I would be willing to let it go.

Don't those of us who aren't ready to forget and move on deserve a voice in this forum? Some of you -- including several mods -- might not enjoy it, but as I said, there's a lot here I don't enjoy either.

[CDu]

FWIW, I've been reading Wheat's posts on this board for some 20 years now. He is no troll. He is a passionate UNC fan who is pretty knowledgeable about hoops generally, but instinctively sees things through a Carolina Blue lens/bias, with all that goes along with that (e.g. preferences for a longer bench, playing two true bigs, more structure in the offense, etc.). And while that is frequently annoying and/or unsettling to many readers here, myself included at times, I do believe Wheat posts here in the spirit of sincere and reasonable debate, and genuinely believes he is offering an informed, alternative perspective. But none of us should expect him to be a punching bag, either.

I agree with everything you said, except for the bolded part. He most definitely has engaged in trolling from time to time.

There is a reason why folks on DBR have singled his trollish behavior out much more than other visitors. And it isn’t because the rest of DBR is wrong.

The guy definitely isn’t exclusively a troll. But he definitely does troll.

And I agree with Oly. While I personally don’t say much about the scandal, I don’t think it should be censored either. There are plenty of things that annoy me more than the occasional (or even regular) reference to the scandal.

[Wheat/"/"/"]

Read the title to the thread: How to handle Carolina's cheating. How does Wheat handle it? Silence.

I tried to comment about the scandal about a year ago in a thread with StrayGator, (who was perfectly reasonable and respectful), but others quickly turned it into something that the moderators would have been overwhelmed with if it had continued. I withdrew because it became very uncivil quickly, and I remain silent because I don't think we can have a reasonable conversation about it here.

And it distracts from the basketball, which is what I would rather talk about.

Someday when things settle down, I'll start a thread on the off topic board and ask everyone who wants my opinion on it to ask me questions and I'll give them honest answers. Many of you will be surprised by what I think.

Let's just move on and talk about hoops.

[fuse]

Jason, this is what I don't understand.

There is a lot of stuff on this board that I don't enjoy. I hate it when a thread I'm interested in gets derailed by the punsters. I hate the eternal minutes debate in the offseason. If I was a moderator, could I jump in and starting deleting the pun posts or the minutes debate. Could I kill the Beer thread because I don't drink beer?

So you don't like the CheatersCheatersCheaters posts ... it's my point that they cheated for 18 years (according to the Wainstein Report ... although there are hints that it went on longer) and then escaped punishment on the technicality that they reversed their admission that the courses were fraudulent that they made to the accreditation agency and suddenly declared that the courses were legitimate (even the ones created just for athletes by Debbie Crowder).

Some of us -- and I'm not the only one -- are not ready to let this go. When a UNC troll shows up on our board taunting Duke for a loss, I'm not going to let it pass. When I see a good Duke poster (and Bob Green is one of my favorites -- we share a love of Duke football) repeating the "Carolina Way" lie about Chris Washburn, I'm going to step in and put the Cheats' propaganda into context.

I've never understood why the mods go out of their way to protect a certain UNC fan who posts here (and this was not the first time he was trolling). Has he ever acknowledged his school's cheating? If so, I haven't seen it.

And while certain mods may not enjoy seeing constant references to the scandal, I love seeing them. Personally, I will continue to rip the most corrupt program in college basketball for its corruption until I'm banned or 18 years pass (the number of years we know they cheated).

I'm sorry if the mods don't like it.

Hey, don’t sully the beer threads good name :rolleyes:
I drank every one of those beers I reviewed.

(All in good fun- no harm or offense intended.)

[Wheat/"/"/"]

I agree with everything you said, except for the bolded part. He most definitely has engaged in trolling from time to time.

There is a reason why folks on DBR have singled his trollish behavior out much more than other visitors. And it isn’t because the rest of DBR is wrong.

The guy definitely isn’t exclusively a troll. But he definitely does troll.

And I agree with Oly. While I personally don’t say much about the scandal, I don’t think it should be censored either. There are plenty of things that annoy me more than the occasional (or even regular) reference to the scandal.

Can you give me your definition of trolling?

I ask so that I can make every effort not to meet that standard.

But understand, I won't compromise my opinions, or my ability to reply to challenges of those opinions.

[richardjackson199]

Hey, don’t sully the beer threads good name :rolleyes:
I drank every one of those beers I reviewed.

(All in good fun- no harm or offense intended.)

I just hope Wheat contributes to Ymmm Beer.

I've tasted gluten free beer and it's terrible

[CDu]

I agree with everything you said, except for the bolded part. He most definitely has engaged in trolling from time to time.

There is a reason why folks on DBR have singled his trollish behavior out much more than other visitors. And it isn’t because the rest of DBR is wrong.

The guy definitely isn’t exclusively a troll. But he definitely does troll.

And I agree with Oly. While I personally don’t say much about the scandal, I don’t think it should be censored either. There are plenty of things that annoy me more than the occasional (or even regular) reference to the scandal.

And in the interest of fairness, I should add that (probably because of his trolling history) there is a lot of trolling of Wheat these days too.

[OldPhiKap]

Someday when things settle down, I'll start a thread on the off topic board and ask everyone who wants my opinion on it to ask me questions and I'll give them honest answers. Many of you will be surprised by what I think.

Or, you could avoid the tease and just answer the question that many have posed to you directly and repeatedly.

Just sayin’.

[CDu]

Can you give me your definition of trolling?

I ask so that I can make every effort not to meet that standard.

But understand, I won't compromise my opinions, or my ability to reply to challenges of those opinions.

Posting provoking posts designed specifically to irritate/annoy others.

Opinions are never a problem. Lord knows plenty of folks on DBR (me definitely included) love to argue about basketball. It is the other stuff - the stuff designed solely to irritate others - that is trolling.

I don’t have the time nor the desire to go back through your posting history to point out all the examples of trolling posts by you. But there are plenty. There are also plenty of nontrolling posts by you. And in fairness, I don’t think you were the problem in the Wofford thread - others trolled you. This time.

[Duke79UNLV77]

Isn't that a matter of opinion?

To my mind, the constant puns that some posters find so fascinating are a negative part of DBR.

You seem to be suggesting that we forget UNC's 18 years of cheating and pretend it didn't happen. I find "constant repetitive complaining about UNC's cheating" enjoyable -- especially when it's directed at a UNC troll who has consistently refused to acknowledge his team's cheating -- come on, even Bubba Cunningham acknowledged that to any reasonable person, UNC cheated. Maybe if UNC had been convicted and punished as they should have been, I would be willing to let it go.

Don't those of us who aren't ready to forget and move on deserve a voice in this forum? Some of you -- including several mods -- might not enjoy it, but as I said, there's a lot here I don't enjoy either.

Ditto on the puns, never forgetting or allowing whitewashing of history, and the troll.

[McGrupp]

Are we arguing about whether Wheat/"/"/" is cool?

Come on now. Wheat/"/"/" is cool.

He's been putting up with your dumb asses for like forever.

That being said, Carolina CHEATED!!! And Brian Bersticker sucks.

[luvdahops]

Posting provoking posts designed specifically to irritate/annoy others.

Opinions are never a problem. Lord knows plenty of folks on DBR (me definitely included) love to argue about basketball. It is the other stuff - the stuff designed solely to irritate others - that is trolling.

I don’t have the time nor the desire to go back through your posting history to point out all the examples of trolling posts by you. But there are plenty. There are also plenty of nontrolling posts by you. And in fairness, I don’t think you were the problem in the Wofford thread - others trolled you. This time.

I no longer read threads as thoroughly as I once did. But it sure seems to me that in many of the instances where Wheat has been accused of trolling, he has been counterpunching, however snarkily at times, rather than instigating. And that is an important distinction. As I said in my original post on this topic, we can't expect him to be a punching bag. Some of our more sensitive and irritable posters seem to feel otherwise, though.

It should count for something that many DBR posters, including some of the longest tenured, clearly like and respect Wheat. And I don't think it is fair to try and equate his presence with those of State or UVA fans. With all due respect to those schools and their fans, the presence of a UNC fan on the DBR Board is by definition going to arouse more suspicion and discomfort, given the intensity of the rivalry and the stature of the Carolina program.

[CDu]

I no longer read threads as thoroughly as I once did. But it sure seems to me that in many of the instances where Wheat has been accused of trolling, he has been counterpunching, however snarkily at times, rather than instigating. And that is an important distinction. As I said in my original post on this topic, we can't expect him to be a punching bag. Some of our more sensitive and irritable posters seem to feel otherwise, though.

It should count for something that many DBR posters, including some of the longest tenured, clearly like and respect Wheat. And I don't think it is fair to try and equate his presence with those of State or UVA fans. With all due respect to those schools and their fans, the presence of a UNC fan on the DBR Board is by definition going to arouse more suspicion and discomfort, given the intensity of the rivalry and the stature of the Carolina program.

More recently, yes, the trolling has started with DBR posters. That is based on history. And while there are certainly some long-tenured posters that like him, there are plenty of long-tenured posters who think he has done his fair share of trolling. Like it or not, trolling behavior (especially when done over a long period of time) tends to stick in some folks’ minds.

And I don’t think it is just because he is a UNC fan. There are - and have been - other UNC fans on this board that haven’t garned the same animosity.

[moonpie23]

here's my analogy: I posted this before and it was deleted. since we are being allowed to suggest ways of "handling" the subject matter, here goes.

suppose this was DCR - DUKE CYCLING REPORT

would be welcome an avid LANCE ARMSTRONG poster to come in and completely ignore the elephant in the room and start a thread like "2017-2018 Lance Armstrong Cycling Thread"?

Come on, how are any mods, Duke fans, or general public giving UNC a PASS??? They committed (possibly) the greatest sports cheating scandal in college athletics HISTORY (equiv to armstrong) They cheated every single school they played against for 18 years or more...

We're just going to let it slide because they "got off"... ? I don't mind wheat, for the most part, he's a rational and knowledgable basketball fan... If he wants to come into the Duke board and talk about Duke basketball, he should be welcome.

But when he comes in and starts threads, about, and posts referencing "the lance armstrong" of college sports, he should be tossed, and we, as Duke fans should all help to toss him.

UNC should be shunned on this board. Ridiculed, scorned, but NOT treated as anything more than the trash they are...stop trying to "smooth it over"...

just because wheat has posted some "reasonable" basketball contributions shouldn't mean we let him (or anyone else) in here to bring up, talk about, praise, relate to, or pontificate about that cess pool down the road...and we should immediately turn on those who do...

sheesh, i get email all the time from the Lance Armstrong's charity talking about all the good stuff they do....


my $.02 worth...

[sagegrouse]

Isn't that a matter of opinion?

To my mind, the constant puns that some posters find so fascinating are a negative part of DBR.

You seem to be suggesting that we forget UNC's 18 years of cheating and pretend it didn't happen. I find "constant repetitive complaining about UNC's cheating" enjoyable -- especially when it's directed at a UNC troll who has consistently refused to acknowledge his team's cheating -- come on, even Bubba Cunningham acknowledged that to any reasonable person, UNC cheated. Maybe if UNC had been convicted and punished as they should have been, I would be willing to let it go.

Don't those of us who aren't ready to forget and move on deserve a voice in this forum? Some of you -- including several mods -- might not enjoy it, but as I said, there's a lot here I don't enjoy either.

You bet it's a matter of opinion, which apparently differs from yours on the comments re UNC. On the other hand, I tend to agree with you on the puns, although they are easy to skim through. On UNC, I don't really care about them one way or another, and while there are UNC grad in my town, none that I know are basketball fans.

On "trolling" I had a different understanding of the meaning. I thought "trolls" were folks who were impersonating, say, a Duke fan but were actually not, but just stirring up trouble. But maybe I'm wrong, and "trolling" is a fishing metaphor, and "trolls" are people who put out annoying posts just to get a "strike." Whatever.

[Stray Gator]

I offer the following observations and opinions not as a moderator, but as a member of the DBR community since its inception, who would like to see us preserve the sense of mutual respect, and goodwill, and underlying cordiality that I believe has made this a special place for interaction among fans.

Wheat has been posting on the DBR for many years. Most of the time, he has focused on the discussion of basketball. Sometimes he has responded to criticism of UNC players or coaches in this forum by presenting his defense; but generally he has confined that defense to the expression of his admittedly UNC-slanted opinions related to basketball, mainly based on the talents of individual players or the strategies of particular coaches. Sometimes -- almost always after being initially baited by one or more posters here -- he has "poked fun with a pointed stick" (his perspective) or made provocative "trolling" comments (the perspective of those who baited him, or who simply dislike the fact that he stands his ground and "gives as good as he gets" rather than being deferential to rival fans). Whenever he has "crossed the line" by violating the posting guidelines, which in my understanding are intended to apply with equal force to everyone who participates in this forum, Wheat has been warned and, when warranted, hit with infractions by the moderators.

In short, I regard Wheat as a member of the DBR community who deserves the same respect, and is subject to the same standard of conduct, and ought to be treated with the same consideration as every other member of the DBR community. For as long as there has been a DBR Board, we have welcomed fans of all teams, including rivals, who are willing to contribute to the discussions in a manner consistent with the "friendly neighborhood pub" atmosphere that the founders of this site conceived as its purpose. Unlike some other message boards, we don't demand that fans of other teams surrender their objectivity or sense of humor at the door and adhere strictly to behavior that is slavishly solicitous or obsequious. To the contrary, we've always taken pride in the fact that the people who post here are both knowledgeable and mature enough to engage in a genuinely honest debate about subjects of mutual interest. If a message board imposes special rules for select posters, and tolerates a double standard that protects a favored group -- or, worse yet, excludes those with differing views by deliberately and persistently making them feel unwelcome -- then it becomes nothing more than an echo chamber, the content of which is neither informative nor entertaining.

Of course, I don't mean to suggest that every post or every exchange needs to be intellectually stimulating. People enjoy the DBR Board for varying reasons; and posters naturally have varying opinions about whether certain subjects are interesting. For example, some think puns are fun; others hold beer to be dear; and still others regard threads of puns and posts about beer as simply boring or inane. But the significant point is that those threads and posts, while perhaps of less interest to some, are not offensive to anyone. If you don't like the subject or the message, the appropriate response is to simply scroll past it. You just shrug it off as someone else's harmless pastime and move on.

It's not surprising that Wheat's posts attract so much attention and evoke such divergent responses. For every member of the DBR community who condemns his messages as offensive, another finds them interesting and informative. There's nothing wrong with that. But what is wrong, in my opinion, are the reactions of those who seem intent on driving him away from this forum. If you disagree with Wheat, I believe the appropriate response is to demonstrate the error in his analysis or opinion. Retorts that parade the same incessant references to "cheating" do nothing to answer his arguments, or advance the dialogue, or add anything of value to the forum. It's not even interesting or amusing anymore. We've heard it all before. He's heard it all before. No matter how long and loud the accusations are repeated, it's never going to change the fact that UNC got away with it -- an enormous injustice, but one that we are powerless to remedy. So what purpose does it serve to continue ranting about it?

If you think the relentless hounding is going to drive Wheat away, or draw him into a firefight that leads him to violate the guidelines so seriously that he gets banned, I suspect that you're going to be disappointed. But I think what it does succeed in doing is degrade the quality of discourse on this forum. Moreover, I believe it makes the DBR community look less friendly than we'd like to be, less mature than we ought to be, and less interested in maintaining an intelligent, civil discussion of basketball than we claim to be. Being antagonistic towards Wheat is not going to punish UNC; it's only going to make us look more like IC.

I live in Durham, directly across the street from the Duke campus, so I have to endure UNC fans on a daily basis, year 'round. I went to high school in a small North Carolina town in the 1960s, when Dean Smith and the Tarheels were regarded as minor deities by the vast majority of my friends and neighbors; so I had to suffer the consequences of being the only Duke fan in my social circle. I may not have a spot on Mt. Hatemore, but I doubt that anyone here harbors greater antipathy towards UNC and its fans than me. Rest assured that my plea for members of the DBR community to "move on" is not grounded in sympathy for Wheat or UNC, but rests on my desire to preserve the dignity and high standards of this site as a reflection of the shared pride we have in representing, albeit unofficially, Duke fans.

Please let the moderators do their job -- including the determination of what constitutes an offensive post that warrants a warning or infraction or ban -- and let's get back to the subject of basketball.

[luvdahops]

More recently, yes, the trolling has started with DBR posters. That is based on history. And while there are certainly some long-tenured posters that like him, there are plenty of long-tenured posters who think he has done his fair share of trolling. Like it or not, trolling behavior (especially when done over a long period of time) tends to stick in some folks’ minds.

And I don’t think it is just because he is a UNC fan. There are - and have been - other UNC fans on this board that haven’t garned the same animosity.

Long history of trolling behavior? Well, I’ve been frequenting these boards for over 20 years, and in my mind, the whole notion that Wheat is some sort of troll is itself a relatively recent phenomenon. He has certainly had plenty of testy exchanges with folks over the years, and the frequency of those seems to have increased. But again, that seems to be at least as much on the Duke fans (many but not all of them newer, as far as I can tell) here as on Wheat, no doubt exacerbated by the scandal, and the anger and disgust it has rightfully triggered.

Just curious, but what other UNC fans post here with anywhere near the frequency of Wheat? I’m certainly not aware of any.

[JasonEvans]

I want to quote a post by CDu, but want to point out that his words here have been echoed by several other folks in this thread and I want it known that my response is not directed only at him.


And I agree with Oly. While I personally don’t say much about the scandal, I don’t think it should be censored either. There are plenty of things that annoy me more than the occasional (or even regular) reference to the scandal.

If you bother to read the POST THAT STARTED THIS THREAD -- the post that explains the policy about Carolina and the cheating scandal -- the moderator team makes it very, very clear that we are not banning talk about the scandal, not by a long shot. Our only guideline is that it not get out of hand and not dominate threads that are otherwise about normal basketball discussion. If you want to call that censorship, fine, but I think it is just a reasonable guideline that does not prevent anyone from voicing their valid concerns about Carolina's terrible behavior. I refer all of you to the example we gave in that first post:



Imagine a thread like this:

* So what do you think about Duke playing so much zone this year?
* Lance Thomas bought all that jewelry, something nefarious went on with him. Bring down the banner.
* Whatever. So, will the freshmen be able to play much M2M this year?
* Cory Magette -- D.o.o.k knew. Should have been punished.
* But really, about the defensive sets.
* Ratface runs a dirty program.

Sounds like IC, right? How is that any different than:

* What about those defending national champions that we'll play twice this year. Think they'll be any good?
* Lyin', stinkin' Cheaters. Bring down the banners.
* Whatever. Who do you think will be the best player this year?
* Paper classes. Dean knew. Should have been punished.
* But really, about the opponent we'll face twice this year.
* Cheaters. For decades. Still do.

I don't see why folks would think this kind of behavior -- which runs counter to the DBR's longstanding goal of intelligent and respectful conversation -- would be something the moderators would allow? It is entirely inconsistent with the type of forum we have labored many years to create.

So, when the Wofford thread devolved into a pointless back and forth about the cheating scandal, we shut it down. When the The Week in the ACC thread seemed headed in that same direction, we issued infractions (on BOTH SIDES!!) and posted a note here to remind folks of the policy. In response, a number of you are again waving your arms and gnashing your teeth about the policy.

Folks, the mods spent a lot of time and debate coming up with this. We are not perfect, but we think this is what will work best for our community. If it really bothers you, just ignore Wheat or anyone else who posts about Carolina... either that or maybe you need to find a new home.

I am so very sorry that this issue and our response to it has divided the community in some way. As if Carolina's shameful victory over morality, justice, and the NCAA weren't bad enough, now their conduct even divides some of us. It freaking sucks! There is nothing we can do about the conduct of those cheating bastards down the road or their smug fans... but, I hope, there is something we can do about ourselves...
http://www.memecreator.org/static/images/memes/498325.jpg

-Jason "I urge all of you to read Stray's post several times... he speaks with an eloquence and thoughtfulness that I truly admire" Evans

[jv001]

I offer the following observations and opinions not as a moderator, but as a member of the DBR community since its inception, who would like to see us preserve the sense of mutual respect, and goodwill, and underlying cordiality that I believe has made this a special place for interaction among fans.

Wheat has been posting on the DBR for many years. Most of the time, he has focused on the discussion of basketball. Sometimes he has responded to criticism of UNC players or coaches in this forum by presenting his defense; but generally he has confined that defense to the expression of his admittedly UNC-slanted opinions related to basketball, mainly based on the talents of individual players or the strategies of particular coaches. Sometimes -- almost always after being initially baited by one or more posters here -- he has "poked fun with a pointed stick" (his perspective) or made provocative "trolling" comments (the perspective of those who baited him, or who simply dislike the fact that he stands his ground and "gives as good as he gets" rather than being deferential to rival fans). Whenever he has "crossed the line" by violating the posting guidelines, which in my understanding are intended to apply with equal force to everyone who participates in this forum, Wheat has been warned and, when warranted, hit with infractions by the moderators.

In short, I regard Wheat as a member of the DBR community who deserves the same respect, and is subject to the same standard of conduct, and ought to be treated with the same consideration as every other member of the DBR community. For as long as there has been a DBR Board, we have welcomed fans of all teams, including rivals, who are willing to contribute to the discussions in a manner consistent with the "friendly neighborhood pub" atmosphere that the founders of this site conceived as its purpose. Unlike some other message boards, we don't demand that fans of other teams surrender their objectivity or sense of humor at the door and adhere strictly to behavior that is slavishly solicitous or obsequious. To the contrary, we've always taken pride in the fact that the people who post here are both knowledgeable and mature enough to engage in a genuinely honest debate about subjects of mutual interest. If a message board imposes special rules for select posters, and tolerates a double standard that protects a favored group -- or, worse yet, excludes those with differing views by deliberately and persistently making them feel unwelcome -- then it becomes nothing more than an echo chamber, the content of which is neither informative nor entertaining.

Of course, I don't mean to suggest that every post or every exchange needs to be intellectually stimulating. People enjoy the DBR Board for varying reasons; and posters naturally have varying opinions about whether certain subjects are interesting. For example, some think puns are fun; others hold beer to be dear; and still others regard threads of puns and posts about beer as simply boring or inane. But the significant point is that those threads and posts, while perhaps of less interest to some, are not offensive to anyone. If you don't like the subject or the message, the appropriate response is to simply scroll past it. You just shrug it off as someone else's harmless pastime and move on.

It's not surprising that Wheat's posts attract so much attention and evoke such divergent responses. For every member of the DBR community who condemns his messages as offensive, another finds them interesting and informative. There's nothing wrong with that. But what is wrong, in my opinion, are the reactions of those who seem intent on driving him away from this forum. If you disagree with Wheat, I believe the appropriate response is to demonstrate the error in his analysis or opinion. Retorts that parade the same incessant references to "cheating" do nothing to answer his arguments, or advance the dialogue, or add anything of value to the forum. It's not even interesting or amusing anymore. We've heard it all before. He's heard it all before. No matter how long and loud the accusations are repeated, it's never going to change the fact that UNC got away with it -- an enormous injustice, but one that we are powerless to remedy. So what purpose does it serve to continue ranting about it?

If you think the relentless hounding is going to drive Wheat away, or draw him into a firefight that leads him to violate the guidelines so seriously that he gets banned, I suspect that you're going to be disappointed. But I think what it does succeed in doing is degrade the quality of discourse on this forum. Moreover, I believe it makes the DBR community look less friendly than we'd like to be, less mature than we ought to be, and less interested in maintaining an intelligent, civil discussion of basketball than we claim to be. Being antagonistic towards Wheat is not going to punish UNC; it's only going to make us look more like IC.

I live in Durham, directly across the street from the Duke campus, so I have to endure UNC fans on a daily basis, year 'round. I went to high school in a small North Carolina town in the 1960s, when Dean Smith and the Tarheels were regarded as minor deities by the vast majority of my friends and neighbors; so I had to suffer the consequences of being the only Duke fan in my social circle. I may not have a spot on Mt. Hatemore, but I doubt that anyone here harbors greater antipathy towards UNC and its fans than me. Rest assured that my plea for members of the DBR community to "move on" is not grounded in sympathy for Wheat or UNC, but rests on my desire to preserve the dignity and high standards of this site as a reflection of the shared pride we have in representing, albeit unofficially, Duke fans.

Please let the moderators do their job -- including the determination of what constitutes an offensive post that warrants a warning or infraction or ban -- and let's get back to the subject of basketball.

Once again a very good post. I have one question: When wheat or any unc fan brings up the storied unc past, is it fair to remind them of how that success came about. In other words, the Carolina way came from years of cheating. I know there has been no new charges brought against them, but I still think they need reminding of their cheating ways when they talk about their success(Especially since wheat has not commented on said years of cheating). My biggest problem with wheat has been his little jabs he takes at our Blue Devils. But to his credit or more so the mods credit he has not taken many jabs lately.
Like you I'm from a small NC town(Mayodan) and there were far too many cheat fans around. They were obnoxious and rubbed our noses in every loss. I'm glad Coach K came a long and leveled the playing field.
I agree that DBR is the best Duke website available to us Duke fans and I enjoy getting away from life's problems when I go to this site. God bless and GoDuke!

[JasonEvans]

I have one question: When wheat or any unc fan brings up the storied unc past, is it fair to remind them of how that success came about. In other words, the Carolina way came from years of cheating.

Of course! Once again, I point you to the post that defines the policy at the start of this thread:

If there is a clear opportunity to bring (the scandal) up that seems to be in the context of a natural conversation, that is fine, but don’t just reflexively say “cheaters!!” every time you see the letters U-N-C strung together.

[Doria]

The silver (sometimes lead-colored) lining here is that, in a way, I am glad to see DBR as a place where many of us feel very passionately about making visiting it the best experience for everyone that we reasonably can. (Uh, I hope we feel passionately about that, and it’s not just me!)

Personally, I boil the guidelines set forth down to two pretty basic things:

1) Treat everyone with respect—whether you believe they deserve it or not.

2) Treat DBR with respect. Help to keep threads on track, even if a ding on an opposing team would be so very tempting; communicate with mods; and follow, to the extent to which you are able, their guidance—whether you believe it is “correct” or not.

I realize this is simplistic, but it helps me know when the world may, perhaps, not need to hear my deathless opinion about this junk. Or, more to the point for me, when my posting it would be a selfish gesture to make myself feel better for about ten seconds, at the expense of extending respect to fellow human beings, including those who spend a heck of a lot of time trying to make this place a great environment for us, Duke fans—not fans of other schools, not media, not anyone else. They’re doing this for us. They probably wouldn’t say they require our thanks, especially if we still disagree, but I think they’ve earned a little leeway and trust, as they figure all this out, same as we have to.

This is personal opinion and practice, but I have found it helpful to reframe the conflict in my mind as such. I do not speak for anyone else. I am not saying someone who feels they cannot in good conscience do X or Y thing is wrong. But all of us are united in our desire to see this place be welcoming and friendly, and I for one, really don’t want to go through what looks to be a pretty fun season constantly dealing with the unhappiness and negative emotions from both (all?) sides. As always, YMMV.

[OldPhiKap]

Well, now that we’ve got the airing of the grievances out of the way, when are the feats of strength?

Fundamentally, as to that poster, it comes down to whether you believe he says innocent things that draw unreasonable ire or if he stirs up trouble with mischievous intent. As noted, he has posted here a long time and many posters have obviously drawn very different personal beliefs on the matter. I don’t think one camp is going to change the mind of the other camp. For good and ill, all of our histories precede us.

For example, starting a “hey let’s talk about UNC’s season” thread two days after the NCAA debacle to me is obviously designed to stick a finger in the eye. I don’t see how that is not obvious. But there are others who similarly cannot see how I draw that conclusion. It depends on your read of whether that poster’s intent is innocent or not.

And I like puns. Someone had to say it.

[Matches]

Come on, how are any mods, Duke fans, or general public giving UNC a PASS??? They committed (possibly) the greatest sports cheating scandal in college athletics HISTORY (equiv to armstrong) They cheated every single school they played against for 18 years or more...

We're just going to let it slide because they "got off"... ? I don't mind wheat, for the most part, he's a rational and knowledgable basketball fan... If he wants to come into the Duke board and talk about Duke basketball, he should be welcome.

But when he comes in and starts threads, about, and posts referencing "the lance armstrong" of college sports, he should be tossed, and we, as Duke fans should all help to toss him.

UNC should be shunned on this board. Ridiculed, scorned, but NOT treated as anything more than the trash they are...stop trying to "smooth it over"...


Sometimes I feel like some folks here want Wheat to *answer* for the cheating. It's not like he was the one doing it. He's a fan of a team that cheated; that's it. He's not obligated to commit seppuku over it. My favorite MLB team (ATL) just got busted for cheating too, and it was a huge scandal, but I wouldn't want to be held personally accountable for that every time I post in the MLB thread.

My only quarrel with the constant UNCheat stuff is when it spills into totally unrelated threads. (It was in the winter movies thread for awhile, for example.) So I think the mods are wise to try to keep it relatively contained.

[CDu]

Long history of trolling behavior? Well, I’ve been frequenting these boards for over 20 years, and in my mind, the whole notion that Wheat is some sort of troll is itself a relatively recent phenomenon. He has certainly had plenty of testy exchanges with folks over the years, and the frequency of those seems to have increased. But again, that seems to be at least as much on the Duke fans (many but not all of them newer, as far as I can tell) here as on Wheat, no doubt exacerbated by the scandal, and the anger and disgust it has rightfully triggered.

Just curious, but what other UNC fans post here with anywhere near the frequency of Wheat? I’m certainly not aware of any.

I would actually say that some UNC posters post MORE than Wheat. Wobatus comes to mind. ClosetHurleyFan was a longtime regular until a few years ago. There have been others. Wheat is certainly the longest tenured.

[Owen Meany]

I have largely stayed away from the Wheat/UNC cheating discussion - but I will chime in here since it seems appropriate. Wheat frequently gets jabs in at Duke, sometimes directly and sometimes in a not-so-subtle but indirect way. Personally, I can't imagine going on another program's message board and criticizing their players, team, etc - but to each their own I suppose.


What I find most irksome about Wheat's posts, however, is that he has frequently felt the need to comment on Duke players' character, behavior, sportsmanship, etc. He will likely deny this, but its true. He has made sure, often in little jabs, but sometimes in longer form, to let us know his disapproval of Grayson Allen's troubles, made a point to refer back to games when he felt he flailed, etc. He has commented on Tyus Jones extending his leg on jump shots, said or insinuated that it was unsportsman-like, stated that it was coached, etc.


I may have missed it, but I didn't see Wheat's comments last year when Berry, Pinson and Kennedy all, in separate incidents, ran their mouth to the opposing teams coaches and bench. At least 2 of these incidents were pointed out in game, and in the Clemson game it brought a visibly angry reaction from the coach. But there were crickets from Wheat. Berry kicks out his legs on jump shots - just part of his shooting form. Last year Wheat was sure to post let us know that Allen jerked his head against Notre Dame to draw a foul when the replay showed he was actually just following his shot. But I didn't here any outrage or concern when a player on the team he follows, Pinson, faked getting hit with an elbow when there was no contact, stayed on the ground pretending to be hurt as play continued, eventually forcing a game stoppage as he continued to feign injury. Wheat is very selective in his indignation.


This would be tiresome under the best of situations. It is particularly tiresome coming from a fan of UNC. UNC may have gotten away with "the biggest cheating scandal in NCAA history". But surely they should be forced to acknowledge that the "Carolina Way" is and always was a sham. If your school's argument is - sure its fraud, but you can't do anything about it and we don't care - then you should probably not comment on other teams, their players,or their actions. And when your program explicitly admits, in writing, to "academic fraud" - but then shamelessly states that it was a "typo" to avoid any consequences for their years of cheating - you should be embarrassed and finally admit that UNC will do anything and everything to win games. Wheat has felt the need to comment on Allen's flailing, Tyus Jones leg kick, etc. But he has been conspicuously quiet, in comparison, to the much, much more egregious situation in his own program - systemic cheating of UNC's athletic department, aided and abetted by the entire university.

[Wander]

Folks, the mods spent a lot of time and debate coming up with this. We are not perfect, but we think this is what will work best for our community. If it really bothers you, just ignore Wheat or anyone else who posts about Carolina... either that or maybe you need to find a new home.

I think you are giving yourself too much grief here. It's as simple as just stating that DBR rules apply to all topics. At the height of the obnoxiousness, Packman, OlympicFan, and others were doing tons of "bump" posts, personal attacks in childishly calling Duke fans UNC fans, and repetitive rants. Pretty black and white that those things were against the guidelines in the sticky-ed thread and warranted infractions and some "on holiday" leave from DBR.

Thanks for cleaning things up - the boards are much more readable now than they were a couple months ago.

(Also, the pun stuff is awful!)

[gus]

I have no interested in discussing individual posters, but I have to say that the notion that discussing Carolina's egregious cheating merits infractions and punishment is ludicrous and somewhat ironic. Carolina cheated, for decades. I'm not going to take part in an institutionalized effort to suppress that fact.

[arnie]

I think you are giving yourself too much grief here. It's as simple as just stating that DBR rules apply to all topics. At the height of the obnoxiousness, Packman, OlympicFan, and others were doing tons of "bump" posts, personal attacks in childishly calling Duke fans UNC fans, and repetitive rants. Pretty black and white that those things were against the guidelines in the sticky-ed thread and warranted infractions and some "on holiday" leave from DBR.

Thanks for cleaning things up - the boards are much more readable now than they were a couple months ago.

(Also, the pun stuff is awful!)
Seems like a strong personal attack against a very knowledgeable poster. For those of us living in North Carolina, the impact of local UNC fan rants (over past 40 years for me) can be unbearable. Bring up the “alleged cheating” and we hear Maggette, Lance Thomas and rat face chants. Even the local press (except for Dan Kane) has given them a pass. David Glenn on local radio is as biased as it gets defending the cheating, and bringing up Thomas’s jewelry. And of course the UNC troll attack against State academic issues from 30 years ago is priceless but not unusual in this area of the country. Even the “flagship” bragging continues.

If you’re not living in the area, you may not realize the level of dishonesty the UNC fans (and their press) exhibit. Don’t forget that the local press openly cheered when we lost to VCU in the tourney in 2007. Some of the DBR posters know the culprits - and have could have identified them, but maturely chose to let it go.

[Wander]

Seems like a strong personal attack against a very knowledgeable poster. For those of us living in North Carolina, the impact of local UNC fan rants (over past 40 years for me) can be unbearable. Bring up the “alleged cheating” and we hear Maggette, Lance Thomas and rat face chants. Even the local press (except for Dan Kane) has given them a pass. David Glenn on local radio is as biased as it gets defending the cheating, and bringing up Thomas’s jewelry. And of course the UNC troll attack against State academic issues from 30 years ago is priceless but not unusual in this area of the country. Even the “flagship” bragging continues.

If you’re not living in the area, you may not realize the level of dishonesty the UNC fans (and their press) exhibit. Don’t forget that the local press openly cheered when we lost to VCU in the tourney in 2007. Some of the DBR posters know the culprits - and have could have identified them, but maturely chose to let it go.

You haven't made a case why UNC cheating, UNC getting away with cheating, or dishonesty from the local press should imply that we throw away all the posting rules and allow petty name calling or bump posts.

[Stray Gator]

I have no interested in discussing individual posters, but I have to say that the notion that discussing Carolina's egregious cheating merits infractions and punishment is ludicrous and somewhat ironic. Carolina cheated, for decades. I'm not going to take part in an institutionalized effort to suppress that fact.

I don't see anyone suppressing, or attempting to suppress, discussion of the UNC cheating/fraud scandal. Indeed, that issue continues to be the predominant topic here. Nor have I seen any infractions imposed against any poster for discussing the UNC cheating/fraud scandal. But what I have seen, and certainly hope to continue seeing as appropriate actions to maintain the standards of conduct in this community, are infractions for violation of the DBR Board rules and posting guidelines -- specifically, for messages that contain personal attacks, repetitive rants, and destructively negative comments. As Jason's posts in this thread and elsewhere have repeatedly emphasized, the moderators are not trying to protect UNC fans or prevent pertinent discussions of the fact that UNC cheated for decades and was unjustly allowed to escape punishment; they're merely trying to enforce the rules evenhandedly and consistently by curtailing the persistent, needlessly negative interactions among participants that add nothing of value in terms of information or entertainment.

In short, there's nothing wrong with posting criticism of UNC for cheating, and of the NCAA for letting it go unpunished despite the fact that UNC officials admitted the fraud, so long as the message complies with DBR's posting guidelines. Some members of the community may regard it as "beating a dead horse"; but as others have noted above, we already have entire threads on subjects that some posters consider a pointless waste of time and bandwidth. As far as I know, there's no rule here against discussing subjects that don't interest everyone, or even against just being silly. But when that criticism of UNC is directed at another poster in a manner that constitutes a personal attack, or a repetitive rant, or a deliberate attempt to incite a dispute or induce another poster to leave the community, it crosses a clearly defined and well understood line. There is something wrong with that kind of behavior here. And I hope that most if not all of our participants would agree that such behavior is unwelcome here and warrants an infraction.

[NSDukeFan]

I also very much enjoy the puns. I’m easily entertained.

[sagegrouse]

I have no interested in discussing individual posters, but I have to say that the notion that discussing Carolina's egregious cheating merits infractions and punishment is ludicrous and somewhat ironic. Carolina cheated, for decades. I'm not going to take part in an institutionalized effort to suppress that fact.

Gus, we are talking about unoriginal and repeated rants about UNC that are wearying to the reader and add nothing to the content of the discussion -- and may even derail legitimate threads on other topics.

No one, so far as I know, is objecting to "UNCheat" or condemnation of UNC in the appropriate context.

My personal view is this: I don't care about UNC, the Charlotte Hornets, or the Carolina Panthers. In fact, here in the Rockies I don't know a single UNC fan (or any fans of the Panthers or Hornets). Yet, when I come to the Duke Basketball Report, I read about UNC over and over and over again, as if it is an obsession for some. Not addressing Gus, but can we give it a rest?

As Maya Angelou said, "When someone shows you who they are, believe them the first time." Then just walk away.

[arnie]

You haven't made a case why UNC cheating, UNC getting away with cheating, or dishonesty from the local press should imply that we throw away all the posting rules and allow petty name calling or bump posts.

And you don’t see the irony in your naming individual posters and calling their posts as “Childishly”? I agree that some stuff has been excessive, but UNC totally skating has been one of the more disappointing occurrences in my sports fandom. Regarding bumping threads, I guess I’m guilty as I bumped a few Duke NCAA championship threads over the past decade.

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

I was refraining from posting on this thread, but heck, everyone else seems to voice their opinion.

I think we have two separate issues at work here;


#1 - We have the "UNC scandals is being ignored, DBR is part of the problem" versus "Every thread is being completely overwhelmed by discussion of the UNC scandal and I can't even sift through and find real basketball posts anymore." I definitely find the incessant carping over the scandal completely exhausting. Maybe we can create a separate board where people who want to spend the next ten years talking about how Dean knew and Roy was complicit, so the rest of us can discuss recruiting, X's and O's, and the most recent UNC loss to Wofford. I don't really fault folks who want to keep on keepin' on, but to me I find it exhausting. As I mentioned in a different thread, I'd MUCH rather focus on Duke's amazingly talented team this year and the drive for a sixth ring than be stuck on a frustrating issue that has already been settled, but that's just me. There's a lot of positives to be excited about this year in particular. Once the season is over, I'm perfectly happy to turn the canvas of DBR back over to NCAA carping.

#2 - The other issue, is the more particular case of Wheat. On a personal level, I actually really enjoy Wheat. He has a good command of basketball strategy, has moments of clarity when he recognizes Roy's shortcomings, and seems to generally have a good sense of humor about things. I enjoy that DBR is a place where we can be hospitable to rival fans from other schools and let them share their perspectives. As evidenced yesterday, I poked a little good-natured fun at him, as I would any UNC fan in real life (it was NOT scandal related, so I have not to my knowledge been singled out for punishment by the Benevolent Mods). There was a lively back and forth over Roy's coaching attributes and we moved on. Life continues, no one was hurt.

Do we really expect as a community for Wheat to come forward on hands and knees asking forgiveness for the scandal? Do we expect him to be a dispassionate voice on the boards? Do we want him to be unable to log in for 48 hours after a Duke loss? Does one user really warrant special treatment of this sort?

For the record, Wheat didn't post from the day after Duke beat UNC in the ACC tournament (March 11) until October 25th. As I recall, UNC did something relatively noteworthy during that stretch, and Wheat did not make a noise about it for over six months. Say what you will, but that isn't "troll" behavior. If this thread is a referendum on Wheat (it isn't), then I do not vote him off the island of DBR. I want our community to be welcoming and diverse - especially in regards to knowledgeable basketball fans.

[sagegrouse]

For the record, Wheat didn't post from the day after Duke beat UNC in the ACC tournament (March 11) until October 25th. As I recall, UNC did something relatively noteworthy during that stretch, and Wheat did not make a noise about it for over six months. Say what you will, but that isn't "troll" behavior. If this thread is a referendum on Wheat (it isn't), then I do not vote him off the island of DBR. I want our community to be welcoming and diverse - especially in regards to knowledgeable basketball fans.

Great post, but I have a joking comment:

March 11 to October 25? Explanation #1 -- tarpon season. Explanation #2 -- fishing tournament season. Explanation #3 -- related to UNC's basketball fortunes, bad and good.:)

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

Great post, but I have a joking comment:

March 11 to October 25? Explanation #1 -- tarpon season. Explanation #2 -- fishing tournament season. Explanation #3 -- related to UNC's basketball fortunes, bad and good.:)

Well said. I don't want Wheat to be exempt from the same jokes and ribbing we all give one another.

[devilseven]

Well, it looks like the Cheaters have won again. I'm sure wheat is getting a good laugh out of all his support plus the put downs of many DBR posters.

[Olympic Fan]

here's my analogy: I posted this before and it was deleted. since we are being allowed to suggest ways of "handling" the subject matter, here goes.

suppose this was DCR - DUKE CYCLING REPORT

would be welcome an avid LANCE ARMSTRONG poster to come in and completely ignore the elephant in the room and start a thread like "2017-2018 Lance Armstrong Cycling Thread"?

Come on, how are any mods, Duke fans, or general public giving UNC a PASS??? They committed (possibly) the greatest sports cheating scandal in college athletics HISTORY (equiv to armstrong) They cheated every single school they played against for 18 years or more...

We're just going to let it slide because they "got off"... ? I don't mind wheat, for the most part, he's a rational and knowledgable basketball fan... If he wants to come into the Duke board and talk about Duke basketball, he should be welcome.

But when he comes in and starts threads, about, and posts referencing "the lance armstrong" of college sports, he should be tossed, and we, as Duke fans should all help to toss him.

UNC should be shunned on this board. Ridiculed, scorned, but NOT treated as anything more than the trash they are...stop trying to "smooth it over"...

just because wheat has posted some "reasonable" basketball contributions shouldn't mean we let him (or anyone else) in here to bring up, talk about, praise, relate to, or pontificate about that cess pool down the road...and we should immediately turn on those who do...

sheesh, i get email all the time from the Lance Armstrong's charity talking about all the good stuff they do...


my $.02 worth...

Best post in this thread ... a great analogy

[Henderson]

We all feel angry about the NCAA's decision. But bringing it up in every thread, multiple times, just makes our community look petty.

I have no problem with the guidelines set forth in post #1.

[rsvman]

I moderated another board on a different topic for about 6 or 7 years. It was tiresome and thankless. And no matter what I/we did, somebody didn't like it. So I truly appreciate the work of this board's moderators, who, all things considered, do a wonderful job.

As far as the UNC cheating scandal is concerned, while I agree that it has become tiresome, if I were the sole moderator of this board I think I would just have let it go, giving infractions only to those who clearly broke the TOS with personal attacks, etc. Because I think that, left to its own devices, the discussion around the cheating and the NCAA's non-response to it would dissipate on its own after a while. And we wouldn't have to have the somewhat painful discussion that is this thread. Nobody is going to harp on about it forever. Yes, it would continue to be brought up forever, but the frequency would naturally decrease. Especially if our season is as successful as I think it can be.

I'm not saying that I won't follow the rules, or that I begrudge the mods for introducing them. I'm just opining that I don't think it was necessary to make this particular pronouncement. It's the nature of humans and of internet message boards that nothing lasts forever. Subjects, in general, die a natural death. This one might have ended up dying a particularly protracted, overly dramatic death, but it would have eventually died.

I agree with StrayGator that it what's done is done and can't be undone, and we can't do anything about what has happened. So I am ready to move on. Except to point out, in appropriate circumstances, that at least two of their banners are likely not legit. Jus' sayin.'

[Devilwin]

My son delivered a package to PJ Hairston the other day. Said he was very nice and talkative, and spoke highly of K and the Duke program...

[OldPhiKap]

My son delivered a package to PJ Hairston the other day. Said he was very nice and talkative, and spoke highly of K and the Duke program...

I think the players and the coaches have much more respect for each other than the fans of the two schools do. Witness, the tribute to Dean at Cameron and the trophy (or some such) that Roy gave to K in return.

Heck, Gerald Henderson and Tyler Hansbrough did a podcast together -- not sure if that was a one-time deal or a series (and not sure if it was good or not, didn't listen to it).

[cato]

I think the players and the coaches have much more respect for each other than the fans of the two schools do. Witness, the tribute to Dean at Cameron and the trophy (or some such) that Roy gave to K in return.

Heck, Gerald Henderson and Tyler Hansbrough did a podcast together -- not sure if that was a one-time deal or a series (and not sure if it was good or not, didn't listen to it).

I recall some players talking about that.

Wasn’t G friends with Wayne Ellington?

These players have a lot more in common with each other than they do with their fans.

[davekay1971]

Wasn’t G friends with Wayne Ellington?

These players have a lot more in common with each other than they do with their fans.

G and Ellington played at Philadelphia's Episcopal Academy together and were very close friends. Many of the players have had close friendships with guys on the other side of the rivalry. They form bonds and understanding in the AAU circuit and through the all star games and recruiting trail and share many common experiences.

Of course, we, as fans see very little of that. And it really doesn't matter. While some fans have vitriol for the players, most of our hatred is reserved for the fans. UNC fans hate that Duke is amazing and successful and doesn't cheat, and Duke fans hate that UNC fans are a bunch of smug hypocrites prattling on about "The Carolina Way" one moment then shrugging and saying "yeah, we cheated but we got away with it so it's all good" the next. My completely unbiased take :-)

[chrishoke]

The ignore button is my friend.

[CDu]

I recall some players talking about that.

Wasn’t G friends with Wayne Ellington?

These players have a lot more in common with each other than they do with their fans.

Allen and Berry are friends too. Not as close as Henderson and Ellington.

[cato]

UNC fans hate that Duke is amazing and successful and doesn't cheat, and Duke fans hate that UNC fans are a bunch of smug hypocrites prattling on about "The Carolina Way" one moment then shrugging and saying "yeah, we cheated but we got away with it so it's all good" the next. My completely unbiased take :-)

I could not have said it better myself. Keep this in your pocket in case we are still talking about this in April.

[MChambers]

As someone who has been reading his posts for 20 years, not just the past few, I absolutely believe this. I wouldn't have said it otherwise.

When he recently went after NC State for cheating, more than 20 years ago, he lost my respect. I won’t read his posts again. Ever. We all know UNC cheated, massively.

Sorry, but UNC is a disgrace, and to ban talking about it here is a mistake. I won’t waste time in other threads, but I don’t want to read about UNC basketball again.

[JasonEvans]

Sorry, but UNC is a disgrace, and to ban talking about it here is a mistake.

For the 9236th time, there is no ban on talking about the cheating.
No way, not even close. What there is is a rule that says don't distract from other conversations by making everything about the cheating. It is a fairly nebulous rule with no hard and fast guidelines to it. We have, thus far, issued exactly 1 infraction related to this rule and that one came to a poster who repeatedly brought up the cheating every chance he could, often diverting what would have been interesting conversations. In the moderator community, where there is often much dissent and discussion, there was no question this person deserved an infraction.

For 99% of the folks who post here, the rule this thread references will never affect them in any way. It is possible that 1% of you may have to think twice about posting too much about the scandal, but that is about it.

-Jason "the hang-wringing here is much ado about nothing..." Evans

[Wheat/"/"/"]

March 11 to October 25? Explanation #1 -- tarpon season. Explanation #2 -- fishing tournament season. Explanation #3 -- related to UNC's basketball fortunes, bad and good.:)


All of the above and add a torn meniscus to the list that really teed me off and didn't have me feeling the basketball love after the ACC tourney.

Then, with Duke exiting early in the tourney, and UNC rolling along, there was nothing I could post about here that would not have me labeled as trolling, (again), so I just took a break.

I don't troll, never have. (I have tweaked my rival fans on occasion, like the Throatybeard comment recently when forgot Duke had already lost a conference game. (He started it by baiting me:) But, I really try not to be mean spirited, it's all in good fun, for me.

My downfall here is I am stubborn. I will usually respond, given the time, to everyone and give an honest opinion, even if it's unpopular. Where I get into trouble is because I tend to respond in the tone that I am spoken to and then things seem to escalate. I need to work on that.

At any rate, I appreciate those on the board that enjoy the banter from time to time, those that don't take themselves too seriously. (I certainly don't take any of this stuff that seriously, it's a hobby).

And I appreciate those on the board who breakdown the individual games and players the most. I'm old now, but I was an athlete back in the day and I enjoy critiquing athletes now.

There are some games tomorrow that get us back in the swing of the season. I am all for moving on from this topic and focusing on the play and the players.

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

There are some games tomorrow that get us back in the swing of the season. I am all for moving on from this topic and focusing on the play and the players.

Thank god.

[Ultrarunner]

And I appreciate those on the board who breakdown the individual games and players the most. I'm old now, but I was an athlete back in the day and I enjoy critiquing athletes now.

Ditto.


There are some games tomorrow that get us back in the swing of the season. I am all for moving on from this topic and focusing on the play and the players.

A point of commonality at last!

Let's go Deacs! (9F implied)
(or maybe stated explicitly is better?)
LGD!

[OldPhiKap]

Of course, we, as fans see very little of that. And it really doesn't matter. While some fans have vitriol for the players, most of our hatred is reserved for the fans. UNC fans hate that Duke is amazing and successful and doesn't cheat, and Duke fans hate that UNC fans are a bunch of smug hypocrites prattling on about "The Carolina Way" one moment then shrugging and saying "yeah, we cheated but we got away with it so it's all good" the next. My completely unbiased take :-)

A worthy send off until April, my friend. Spot on.

[Uncle Drew]

For the 9236th time, there is no ban on talking about the cheating.
No way, not even close. What there is is a rule that says don't distract from other conversations by making everything about the cheating. It is a fairly nebulous rule with no hard and fast guidelines to it. We have, thus far, issued exactly 1 infraction related to this rule and that one came to a poster who repeatedly brought up the cheating every chance he could, often diverting what would have been interesting conversations. In the moderator community, where there is often much dissent and discussion, there was no question this person deserved an infraction.

For 99% of the folks who post here, the rule this thread references will never affect them in any way. It is possible that 1% of you may have to think twice about posting too much about the scandal, but that is about it.

-Jason "the hang-wringing here is much ado about nothing..." Evans

On Friday October 13th I was so infuriated with the final decision in the UNC cheating scandal I stopped watching ALL sports. I had / have issues with college football & basketball plus MAJOR issues with each of the professional sports leagues. I have actually been able to stick with my vow and it has been both good and bad. For example I did not get to see the Dodgers play in a World Series for the first time since my high school graduation year; but I didn’t have to watch them lose either. I was fortunate not to have to endure the six game losing streak Duke football ran up; however I didn’t get to see them salvage the season and win a bowl game for just the second time in my life. One huge positive is I haven’t had to endure the “down” feeling when my teams lost or the teams I loathe won. And with sports no longer being a point of discussion there has been no razzing from anyone. BUT, I’d be lying if I said I don’t miss it or that there is a void in my life right now I have yet to fill.

I watched the UNC verdict and reactions much as I watched the election reactions in November of 2016. Both caused immediate, emotional reactions and left two demographics; one basking in the bright rays of Schadenfreude, the other in disbelief and a feeling there is no justice in this world. Both events had so called experts left trying to explain what happened and why. Both left groups with anger if not outright hate for the other side. Decades ago Tip O’Neal and Reagan regularly had dinner together on nights when the rest of the country was arguing about policies they put in place. Several posters have pointed out this “feud” is primarily with the fans and many UNC-Cheat and Duke players are friends if not friendly. But being a Duke fan in the state of North Carolina has always meant to be treated as a second class citizen. Finding out with 100% certainty the “public ivy”, “Carolina Way” smoke screen was 100% bovine excrement as always suspected was nice. To have them skate with not so much as a slap on the wrist was akin to having a drunk driver kill a beloved friend / relative and receiving NO punishment on a technicality. Justice was not done.

Is continuing to comment about the scandal or using acronyms like UNC-Cheat productive for me or anyone else? No. What is done is in fact done. It has been a hard pill to swallow that UNC will put it in the back of their minds to become a non-issue, and new fans won’t know or learn of the past. (Keeping it alive is some people’s way of saying “never forget”.) But the scandal and outcome has actually affected the way I view certain people, both people I know and complete strangers (wearing UNC gear). Before October 13th I was prepared to give any UNC grads (non-athletes) a pass; a degree is a thing to be proud of when earned. But the lifelong fans who continue to pull for the heels I have absolutely no respect for, none. If Duke had done the same thing they did at the University of Northern Carrboro I would have been so ashamed I would never be able to root for them again. To lawyer up and stall while spending millions upon millions of dollars just to keep some banners hanging screams the school, its administrators and yes its fans have no scruples, integrity or shame. Lying and cheating used to be deemed immoral; to have it celebrated is revolting.

Yesterday at work several coworkers and I were discussing the two major lotteries being over 300 million dollars and joking about what we’d do with that kind of cash if we won. I told them I would rent out every billboard coming into the state and at every airport. “Welcome to North Carolina where the degrees are free if you hit the open 3!”, “The University of North Carolina, The public poison Ivy” and “You thought your degree from Phoenix online or Trump University degree was worthless, they have NOTHING on UNC!” would be great slogans. I then said I would move to Hawaii, buy a Ferrari and the other “normal” things a lottery winner would do; but I have priorities. (Just in case, would it be legal to pay the top 100 high school recruits to NOT go to UNC? They could attend any other school.)

I still enjoy reading the threads here even if I seldom comment. It’s my way of keeping track without watching. I DO so much wish Duke success and I love Duke. Jason and the other mods make a difficult task look easy and I applaud them for their work here and on the podcasts. It’s understandable to want to reign in discussions to Duke topics. But while it will never happen it’s human nature to want to make sure everyone knows a snake in the grass is a snake in the grass. I like the other analogies given earlier in the thread. In my book they cheated every time they took the court / field (and I’m not convinced they still aren’t), it’s natural for the cheaters to want to let things go and those cheated never forget. Imagine going to a 50th anniversary party knowing one partner cheated repeatedly as often as they could the entire 50 years. That’s the elephant in the room sort of equivalent we as ABC’ers face when UNC athletics is mentioned here or anywhere else. We know it’s all a big fat lie and it disgusts us for them to be treated as equals when we know they are worthy of scorn.

It hasn’t been fun or easy to go cold turkey with sports, but what UNC-Cheat got away with is unforgivable…

So, I hear this Marvin Bagley kid is pretty good for a f̶r̶e̶s̶h̶m̶a̶n̶ high school senior.

[madscavenger]

All of the above and add a torn meniscus to the list that really teed me off and didn't have me feeling the basketball love after the ACC tourney.

Then, with Duke exiting early in the tourney, and UNC rolling along, there was nothing I could post about here that would not have me labeled as trolling, (again), so I just took a break.

I don't troll, never have. (I have tweaked my rival fans on occasion, like the Throatybeard comment recently when forgot Duke had already lost a conference game. (He started it by baiting me:) But, I really try not to be mean spirited, it's all in good fun, for me.

My downfall here is I am stubborn. I will usually respond, given the time, to everyone and give an honest opinion, even if it's unpopular. Where I get into trouble is because I tend to respond in the tone that I am spoken to and then things seem to escalate. I need to work on that.

At any rate, I appreciate those on the board that enjoy the banter from time to time, those that don't take themselves too seriously. (I certainly don't take any of this stuff that seriously, it's a hobby).

And I appreciate those on the board who breakdown the individual games and players the most. I'm old now, but I was an athlete back in the day and I enjoy critiquing athletes now.

There are some games tomorrow that get us back in the swing of the season. I am all for moving on from this topic and focusing on the play and the players.


In other words, understanding where you're coming from is for some a simple matter of accepting an aye for an i, yet for others an eye for an evil i remains the order of the day.

[CrazyNotCrazie]

On Friday October 13th I was so infuriated with the final decision in the UNC cheating scandal I stopped watching ALL sports. I had / have issues with college football & basketball plus MAJOR issues with each of the professional sports leagues. I have actually been able to stick with my vow and it has been both good and bad. For example I did not get to see the Dodgers play in a World Series for the first time since my high school graduation year; but I didn’t have to watch them lose either. I was fortunate not to have to endure the six game losing streak Duke football ran up; however I didn’t get to see them salvage the season and win a bowl game for just the second time in my life. One huge positive is I haven’t had to endure the “down” feeling when my teams lost or the teams I loathe won. And with sports no longer being a point of discussion there has been no razzing from anyone. BUT, I’d be lying if I said I don’t miss it or that there is a void in my life right now I have yet to fill.

I watched the UNC verdict and reactions much as I watched the election reactions in November of 2016. Both caused immediate, emotional reactions and left two demographics; one basking in the bright rays of Schadenfreude, the other in disbelief and a feeling there is no justice in this world. Both events had so called experts left trying to explain what happened and why. Both left groups with anger if not outright hate for the other side. Decades ago Tip O’Neal and Reagan regularly had dinner together on nights when the rest of the country was arguing about policies they put in place. Several posters have pointed out this “feud” is primarily with the fans and many UNC-Cheat and Duke players are friends if not friendly. But being a Duke fan in the state of North Carolina has always meant to be treated as a second class citizen. Finding out with 100% certainty the “public ivy”, “Carolina Way” smoke screen was 100% bovine excrement as always suspected was nice. To have them skate with not so much as a slap on the wrist was akin to having a drunk driver kill a beloved friend / relative and receiving NO punishment on a technicality. Justice was not done.

Is continuing to comment about the scandal or using acronyms like UNC-Cheat productive for me or anyone else? No. What is done is in fact done. It has been a hard pill to swallow that UNC will put it in the back of their minds to become a non-issue, and new fans won’t know or learn of the past. (Keeping it alive is some people’s way of saying “never forget”.) But the scandal and outcome has actually affected the way I view certain people, both people I know and complete strangers (wearing UNC gear). Before October 13th I was prepared to give any UNC grads (non-athletes) a pass; a degree is a thing to be proud of when earned. But the lifelong fans who continue to pull for the heels I have absolutely no respect for, none. If Duke had done the same thing they did at the University of Northern Carrboro I would have been so ashamed I would never be able to root for them again. To lawyer up and stall while spending millions upon millions of dollars just to keep some banners hanging screams the school, its administrators and yes its fans have no scruples, integrity or shame. Lying and cheating used to be deemed immoral; to have it celebrated is revolting.

Yesterday at work several coworkers and I were discussing the two major lotteries being over 300 million dollars and joking about what we’d do with that kind of cash if we won. I told them I would rent out every billboard coming into the state and at every airport. “Welcome to North Carolina where the degrees are free if you hit the open 3!”, “The University of North Carolina, The public poison Ivy” and “You thought your degree from Phoenix online or Trump University degree was worthless, they have NOTHING on UNC!” would be great slogans. I then said I would move to Hawaii, buy a Ferrari and the other “normal” things a lottery winner would do; but I have priorities. (Just in case, would it be legal to pay the top 100 high school recruits to NOT go to UNC? They could attend any other school.)

I still enjoy reading the threads here even if I seldom comment. It’s my way of keeping track without watching. I DO so much wish Duke success and I love Duke. Jason and the other mods make a difficult task look easy and I applaud them for their work here and on the podcasts. It’s understandable to want to reign in discussions to Duke topics. But while it will never happen it’s human nature to want to make sure everyone knows a snake in the grass is a snake in the grass. I like the other analogies given earlier in the thread. In my book they cheated every time they took the court / field (and I’m not convinced they still aren’t), it’s natural for the cheaters to want to let things go and those cheated never forget. Imagine going to a 50th anniversary party knowing one partner cheated repeatedly as often as they could the entire 50 years. That’s the elephant in the room sort of equivalent we as ABC’ers face when UNC athletics is mentioned here or anywhere else. We know it’s all a big fat lie and it disgusts us for them to be treated as equals when we know they are worthy of scorn.

It hasn’t been fun or easy to go cold turkey with sports, but what UNC-Cheat got away with is unforgivable…

So, I hear this Marvin Bagley kid is pretty good for a f̶r̶e̶s̶h̶m̶a̶n̶ high school senior.

I am a very proud Duke alum and slightly obsessed fan of the basketball team. I despise Carolina passionately. The rivalry is what makes the games extra special. I had Tar Heel colleagues harass me to the point that I had trouble having everyday business-related conversations with them during basketball season.

That being said, it is a game. To compare the outcome of the cheating scandal to someone dying in a car crash is really, really sick. For those who disagree with me, you really need to join the poster in the off-topic board who is doing a three month life cleanse.

I agree 100% with the mods. It is fine to periodically joke about how the Heels cheated and to be very frustrated with the clear miscarriage of justice in them getting away with it. But the attitude among some that we can't talk about their current team because of this is ridiculous. Guess what - we will play them at least twice this year. And the games will count. And they will be one of our more formidable opponents. So let's deal with it. Jokes are great but constant harping on it is annoying and takes away from the fine tradition of intelligent discourse that makes DBR great.

I think that the comparison between sidetracking threads with puns is comparable to sidetracking them with UNC hatred is a great one. I personally love puns but can see why this would be frustrating, so in the spirit of this discussion, I will try to keep that to a minimum, as it would be hypocritical to do otherwise.

[PackMan97]

You know what is needed...something along the lines of 9f, that we can just put in our messages to indicated that Carolina Cheats.

Maybe 9o?

[elvis14]

Just wanted to drop a quick note and thank the Mods for all they do. The reason I read this board more than any other is because it's so well moderated and has a great signal to noise ratio.

On other subjects:

I have zero tolerance for UNCheat after they bought their way out. I try to not harp but it's difficult when you live around here. At the same time, I want as little UNCheat stuff on this board as possible (unless it's 100% anti-cheater).
I ignore pro-UNCheat posters, they all suck
I ignore all the puns, most of them suck

[davekay1971]

Excellent idea from Packman.

9F

9O

9F 9O 9F 9O 9F 9O 9F 9O

[UrinalCake]

In a shocking bit of news, it turns out that other schools don’t like being punished severely for actions that are a tiny fraction of what UNC did. Who’d a thunk it?

link (http://www.espn.com/college-football/story/_/id/22420219/ncaa-denies-notre-dame-fighting-irish-appeal-vacated-wins-2012-13)

[howardlander]

In a shocking bit of news, it turns out that other schools don’t like being punished severely for actions that are a tiny fraction of what UNC did. Who’d a thunk it?

link (http://www.espn.com/college-football/story/_/id/22420219/ncaa-denies-notre-dame-fighting-irish-appeal-vacated-wins-2012-13)

They should sue...

[thedukelamere]

In academic misconduct cases, the penalty of vacation of team records has, until now, only been applied in the case of serious forms of institutional culpability: when coaches, administrators, or persons with academic responsibilities are complicit in cheating, or when an institution fails to monitor or lacks control over its athletics program.

Should have ended this paragraph with: Dean knew. Roy knew. Yet the NCAA did nothing.

[duke2x]

They should sue...

I agree, but ND probably had to make this request first. Don't put it past ND to try when football wins are at stake.

[PackMan97]

In a shocking bit of news, it turns out that other schools don’t like being punished severely for actions that are a tiny fraction of what UNC did. Who’d a thunk it?

link (http://www.espn.com/college-football/story/_/id/22420219/ncaa-denies-notre-dame-fighting-irish-appeal-vacated-wins-2012-13)

"At best, the NCAA's decision in this case creates a randomness of outcome based solely on how an institution chooses to define its honor code; at worst, it creates an incentive for colleges and universities to change their honor codes to avoid sanctions like that imposed here."




https://studentconduct.unc.edu/

As a condition of joining the Carolina community, Carolina students pledge “not to lie, cheat, or steal” and to hold themselves, as members of the Carolina community, to a high standard of academic and non-academic conduct while both on and off Carolina’s campus. This commitment to academic integrity, ethical behavior, personal responsibility and civil discourse exemplifies the “Carolina Way”, and this commitment is codified in both the University's Honor Code and in other University student conduct-related policies.


Or in Carolina's case...just ignore the honor code completely.

[elvis14]

Having UNCheat buy their way out of punishment with NCAA actually makes the whole situation worse and more seedy. I hope they lose every game in every sport they ever play and I have zero tolerance for any of their BS.

[JetpackJesus]

In a shocking bit of news, it turns out that other schools don’t like being punished severely for actions that are a tiny fraction of what UNC did. Who’d a thunk it?

link (http://www.espn.com/college-football/story/_/id/22420219/ncaa-denies-notre-dame-fighting-irish-appeal-vacated-wins-2012-13)

I was looking for somewhere to post this. The very end is my favorite part:


Jenkins didn't name the North Carolina case but referred to a "recent high profile academic misconduct case in which the NCAA Committee on Infractions chair explained that even though certain classes 'more likely than not' were used to keep athletes eligible with fraudulent credits, the legitimacy of those classes was beyond the jurisdiction of the NCAA's enforcement process precisely because that question must be left to the determination of the university in the exercise of its academic autonomy.

"The notion that a university's exercise of academic autonomy can under NCAA rules lead to exoneration -- or to a severe penalty -- without regard to the way it which it is used defies logic and any notion of fundamental fairness," Jenkins wrote.

Nail meet hammer.

[UrinalCake]

My twitter feed (which is heavily biased towards college basketball sources) is completely blowing up with people calling out the NCAA on their hypocrisy. It's not going to change what has happened, but at least the CHeats are getting some bad publicity. They will forever be known as the biggest fraud in college sports, the fraud against which all other fraud will be measured. (not that they care).

[weezie]

...I ignore pro-UNCheat posters, they all suck...I ignore all the puns, most of them suck

Here comes the next wave of puns. But, I agree.

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

Here comes the next wave of puns. But, I agree.

Yeah, but in deference to Elvis, none of the puns will suck.

[elvis14]

Yeah, but in deference to Elvis, none of the puns will suck.

LOL, Don't make me start judging individual puns for their level of suckage! I'm trying to make this a kinder, more welcoming DBR today!

[IrishDevil]

yeah, but in deference to elvis, none of the puns will suck.


thank you, thank you very much

fify ;)

[devildeac]

fify ;)

IIRC, you're an ND-Duke person. What's your take (and/or other alumni reactions) on the ncaa response to the ND petition to have wins reinstated?

[BigWayne]

"At best, the NCAA's decision in this case creates a randomness of outcome based solely on how an institution chooses to define its honor code; at worst, it creates an incentive for colleges and universities to change their honor codes to avoid sanctions like that imposed here."




Or in Carolina's case...just ignore the honor code completely.

Jay Bilas concludes the same thing. (https://twitter.com/JayBilas/status/963560663418368001)


NCAA totally oversteps its bounds again. Penn State overreach means nobody will investigate themselves again. This was a student issue to which Notre Dame applied its Honor Code. Now, NOBODY will apply an honor code again. Just crazy.

[IrishDevil]

IIRC, you're an ND-Duke person. What's your take (and/or other alumni reactions) on the ncaa response to the ND petition to have wins reinstated?

I am a duke undergrad alum with a grad degree from ND. My first rooting interest is always Duke, but ND is always a close second. I am immensely proud of ND in the way it emphasizes service and fighting for what is right. ND is by no means perfect, and as a graduate alum I am probably less likely than others to deem ND infallible, but, like K's program, the focus at ND (at least in my experience) is on doing the rights things the right way.

As Father Jenkins lays out in his letter, that is precisely why the NCAA is punishing ND - because they had the integrity to demand academic rigor of their student athletes and enforce their honor code, choosing to recalculate the student's grades to account for the cheating, thereby rendering their own students ineligible to compete, rather than electing to talk out of both sides of their mouths about what it means to be student-athlete. Had ND ignored the matter, or really done most anything else but retroactively make the players ineligible, the NCAA would have done nothing. Instead, it levied additional, discretionary penalties for ND deciding, as an academic institution and pursuant to its university policies, how to govern the academic performance of its students. What a wonderful, judicious exercise of discretion. And if that's perfectly consistent with the NCAA's decision regarding the festering pit of dishonesty radiating waves of deceitful self-righteousness up 15-501 from Chapel Hill, it is also completely contrary to the stated mission of the NCAA. "U"NC and the N"C"AA deserve each other.

I will leave it to swood and others to analyze the real merits of the appeal in detail and to lay out how the understanding of a part-time student athletic training assistant's relationship to the university has changed since the misconduct at ND occurred and what effect that status and its change should or should not have had on the appeal, as I'm sure I am missing more than one nuance. In my mind, this ordeal has just confirmed what we have all known since at least last Fall, that the real way to spell NCAA is S-H-A-M.

The way forward seems clear now - use your university policies to shield athletes from the requirements of scholarship rather than to encourage them to pursue education and teach them the consequences of deceit. The former will be ignored and the latter will be punished.

[NSDukeFan]

I can't figure out if UNC is the Russia of academic integrity or if Russia is the UNC of Olympics integrity.

[devildeac]

I am a duke undergrad alum with a grad degree from ND. My first rooting interest is always Duke, but ND is always a close second. I am immensely proud of ND in the way it emphasizes service and fighting for what is right. ND is by no means perfect, and as a graduate alum I am probably less likely than others to deem ND infallible, but, like K's program, the focus at ND (at least in my experience) is on doing the rights things the right way.

As Father Jenkins lays out in his letter, that is precisely why the NCAA is punishing ND - because they had the integrity to demand academic rigor of their student athletes and enforce their honor code, choosing to recalculate the student's grades to account for the cheating, thereby rendering their own students ineligible to compete, rather than electing to talk out of both sides of their mouths about what it means to be student-athlete. Had ND ignored the matter, or really done most anything else but retroactively make the players ineligible, the NCAA would have done nothing. Instead, it levied additional, discretionary penalties for ND deciding, as an academic institution and pursuant to its university policies, how to govern the academic performance of its students. What a wonderful, judicious exercise of discretion. And if that's perfectly consistent with the NCAA's decision regarding the festering pit of dishonesty radiating waves of deceitful self-righteousness up 15-501 from Chapel Hill, it is also completely contrary to the stated mission of the NCAA. "U"NC and the N"C"AA deserve each other.

I will leave it to swood and others to analyze the real merits of the appeal in detail and to lay out how the understanding of a part-time student athletic training assistant's relationship to the university has changed since the misconduct at ND occurred and what effect that status and its change should or should not have had on the appeal, as I'm sure I am missing more than one nuance. In my mind, this ordeal has just confirmed what we have all known since at least last Fall, that the real way to spell NCAA is S-H-A-M.

The way forward seems clear now - use your university policies to shield athletes from the requirements of scholarship rather than to encourage them to pursue education and teach them the consequences of deceit. The former will be ignored and the latter will be punished.

Thank you for a very thoughtful and thorough response. The ncaa "rewards" ND with additional punishment for their honesty/adhering to their honor code and "disciplines" the cheats for 23 years of lying and academic fraud with no punishment and making a total mockery of their "honor" code. Disgusting.

[devildeac]

I can't figure out if UNC is the Russia of academic integrity or if Russia is the UNC of Olympics integrity.

Yes and yes.

[Devil549]

UNC cheated, they are a joke their athletic program is a joke. The UNC BOG are a joke....most money people in NC have some ties with UNC.

They think they created basketball and the ironic part their basketball program made the University a JOKE.

[moonpie23]

unfortunately, now that the ncaa has allowed them legitimacy, UNC now shines brighter than ever. Yes, you can try to "OJ" them, but look at the facts..


they were cleared...they won the natty in 17, and came within a hair of back to backs for 16/17...

NOW, they are surging, and look to make another deep run in the post season. THEY ARE A GOOD TEAM...


roy could win his 4th this year....yeah, i said it....roy could win his 4th....

let that marinate a bit...

[elvis14]

Jay Bilas concludes the same thing. (https://twitter.com/JayBilas/status/963560663418368001)

Let's face it, Jay hates the NCAA so much that his opinion no longer matters. He would have railed against the NCAA in this case no matter what the outcome. It's really gotten about as old as his pro-Cheater/anti-Duke schtick (which was sadly, on display again Saturday during Gameday).

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

Let's face it, Jay hates the NCAA so much that his opinion no longer matters. He would have railed against the NCAA in this case no matter what the outcome. It's really gotten about as old as his pro-Cheater/anti-Duke schtick (which was sadly, on display again Saturday during Gameday).

Agreed. Jay is so anti-NCAA that if they did something empirically good, he would find a way to skew it negative and rail against them.

Granted I feel the same way about some politicians.

[dyedwab]

Agreed. Jay is so anti-NCAA that if they did something empirically good, he would find a way to skew it negative and rail against them.

That this is true does not make him wrong. The NCAA has serious problems as a entity, which emerge most egregiously in cases like this.

[elvis14]

That this is true does not make him wrong. The NCAA has serious problems as a entity, which emerge most egregiously in cases like this.

I agree that it does not make him wrong but it does make him the wrong person to make the point. After being disgusted by UNCheat buying their way out of punishment for offenses they 100% committed, I think we all know that the NCAA has serious problems....I mean we must know because JayB has told us 10000000000000000000000 times during every single broadcast, with tweets, letters, speeches, does he have an anti-NCAA book?

[Rich]

unfortunately, now that the ncaa has allowed them legitimacy, UNC now shines brighter than ever. Yes, you can try to "OJ" them, but look at the facts..


they were cleared...they won the natty in 17, and came within a hair of back to backs for 16/17...

NOW, they are surging, and look to make another deep run in the post season. THEY ARE A GOOD TEAM...


roy could win his 4th this year...yeah, i said it...roy could win his 4th...

let that marinate a bit...

This. I live in NJ and have a high school sophomore and a college freshman. I talk to parents about college stuff all the time and, for the most part, people are just generally unaware of the UNC scandal. The amount of media attention this has received outside of NC (or places like DBR) is scarce. People "still" consider UNC to be an excellent academic institution with a great basketball program. Where I live it's as if nothing happened and I'm pretty sure that's how it is in 48 other states. In that last state there are pockets of discontent, but for the most part people celebrated the "Carolina Way."

[dyedwab]

I agree that it does not make him wrong but it does make him the wrong person to make the point. After being disgusted by UNCheat buying their way out of punishment for offenses they 100% committed, I think we all know that the NCAA has serious problems...I mean we must know because JayB has told us 10000000000000000000000 times during every single broadcast, with tweets, letters, speeches, does he have an anti-NCAA book?

Strongly disagree. He has a platform, he uses it relentlessly, and to an audience that is not necessarily going to agree with him (or care as much about it as he does). It may appear tiresome, but I prefer that to commentators who throw up their hands about larger issue in college sports and say "what can you do?"

[DUKIE V(A)]

One place fitting for this...


"As a condition of joining the Carolina community, Carolina students pledge “not to lie, cheat, or steal” and to hold themselves, as members of the Carolina community, to a high standard of academic and non-academic conduct while both on and off Carolina’s campus. This commitment to academic integrity, ethical behavior, personal responsibility and civil discourse exemplifies the “Carolina Way”, and this commitment is codified in both the University's Honor Code and in other University student conduct-related policies."


...printed on rolls of Charmin.

On second thought, probably not good for business to be selling "fresh" rolls of toilet paper with crap already on them.

[OldPhiKap]

This. I live in NJ and have a high school sophomore and a college freshman. I talk to parents about college stuff all the time and, for the most part, people are just generally unaware of the UNC scandal. The amount of media attention this has received outside of NC (or places like DBR) is scarce. People "still" consider UNC to be an excellent academic institution with a great basketball program. Where I live it's as if nothing happened and I'm pretty sure that's how it is in 48 other states. In that last state there are pockets of discontent, but for the most part people celebrated the "Carolina Way."

Agree with Rich. Among those who follow college sports closely, they generally see UNC athletics for the sham it has been. But outside of that, UNC got away with it.

Kudos to $14 million dollars worth of quality legal representation. It worked.

[JetpackJesus]

Jay Bilas concludes the same thing. (https://twitter.com/JayBilas/status/963560663418368001)

We've been there since the day of the UNC decision, Jay.

[left_hook_lacey]

This. I live in NJ and have a high school sophomore and a college freshman. I talk to parents about college stuff all the time and, for the most part, people are just generally unaware of the UNC scandal. The amount of media attention this has received outside of NC (or places like DBR) is scarce. People "still" consider UNC to be an excellent academic institution with a great basketball program. Where I live it's as if nothing happened and I'm pretty sure that's how it is in 48 other states. In that last state there are pockets of discontent, but for the most part people celebrated the "Carolina Way."

I work in Eastern North Carolina in pharmaceuticals. As you would expect, we have employees from many different walks of life and education, as well as a good representation from many schools in the ACC, and especially in North Carolina. Lots of State, ECU, UNC, Wake, alumni work on my floor. There is a sprinkling of two or three Clemson grads, and one Duke grad that I know of. Out of that group, only one die-hard State fan watches sports(I actually went to the ND game with him and his wife earlier this year) or more specifically, college basketball. The general consensus I get from that group is that UNC is still an excellent option as a school.

I've found myself having to dial down the gusto when discussing their vile ways, because I soon realized, no one but the State guy cared, or even knew about it. I was talking to a guy who is from California, recently left the Navy and finished college at State. He was talking about how even in California, UNC is highly regarded, especially for certain degrees. I brought up the scandal and he said he vaguely knew about it. I explained it to him in a little more detail, and asked if he still thought UNC was a good school. He said, "Yeah, I mean, that was for the athletes, doesn't every school cater to their athletes to keep them eligible? I mean, I couldn't get into Duke, but if I could dunk a basketball, or run the football, my chances get a hell of a lot better. How's that different or fair? All colleges cheat to get the sports guys in school and keep them there. But those schools are still good academically, as long as you're not referring to an athlete."

[Papa John]

The general consensus I get from that group is that UNC is still an excellent option as a school.

And they’re correct, it is still an excellent option as a school, and has a number of top-notch programs. The scandal doesn’t change that fact. OJ Simpson was still a phenomenal running back—his murder trial, assault charges and jail time didn’t change that fact.

[thedukelamere]

I've found myself having to dial down the gusto when discussing their vile ways, because I soon realized, no one but the State guy cared, or even knew about it. I was talking to a guy who is from California, recently left the Navy and finished college at State. He was talking about how even in California, UNC is highly regarded, especially for certain degrees. I brought up the scandal and he said he vaguely knew about it.

That, to me, is the worst part of the entire situation (besides 1200 students being cheated out of an education, but honestly, if they don't care, why should we?). Living in Indiana, the conversations that I have with "diehard" UNC, IU, Purdue, etc fans is always the same. They might have heard a little about it, but just assume since nothing incendiary came of it that it actually didn't happen. Our only hope is that some rebel Devils/Wolfpack alliance is formed and they create/finance a 30 for 30 breaking everything down. They'd have my money.

[jv001]

I can remember when 60 Minutes would have been all over the cheating that went on at UNCheatville. There was hardly a whimper from the media about the biggest cheating scandal in college basketball history. I wonder how the media would have reacted if it was Duke that had done the cheating. Just the world we live in today. GoDuke!

[CDu]

And they’re correct, it is still an excellent option as a school, and has a number of top-notch programs. The scandal doesn’t change that fact. OJ Simpson was still a phenomenal running back—his murder trial, assault charges and jail time didn’t change that fact.

Yep. They have run a corrupt athletic program that created a sham "academic" program to keep athletes eligible. And the handful (or one or two?) programs involved in that should be viewed as a sham. But there are 76 degree programs at UNC, and I'd venture 70+ of them never interact with the football team. And in those programs, it's a fantastic academic university. Their School of Public Health (full disclosure: I have a graduate degree from there), is perennially among the top 3 in the nation. Overall, they are a top-30 school and top-10 public school. Generally speaking, UNC is a fine academic institution. As it relates to sports and academics, they are/have been a sham. But the school as a whole is a very good choice academically for any normal person.

[thedukelamere]

I was hoping for maybe John Oliver to take a crack at it last season, but sadly he has his hands full with other, more catastrophic topics to cover.

[PackMan97]

Overall, they are a top-30 school and top-10 public school. Generally speaking, UNC is a fine academic institution. As it relates to sports and academics, they are/have been a sham. But the school as a whole is a very good choice academically for any normal person.

Here is where the argument falls down. If UNC is willing to lie and cheat to win at sports, what else will they lie and cheat about? We know they have fudged the numbers about campus safety and sexual assault, so there is that as well. In an environemnt where an honor code is actively ignored, where faculty do not speak up when they see fraud committed, where everyone remains silent when a whistle blower is attacked, how certain can we be that the rest of the University is operating openly and honestly? How many faculty members or administrators overlook "minor" issues, because they see how speaking up just makes you a target? How many would be whistleblowers stay quite because they know you get treated like Mary Willingham was treated? I have no faith in UNC as an institution that has integrity or operates with honesty. None.

Folks who are unapologetic UNC fans, I have lost respect for. I know if they are willing to condone cheating and support covering up a problem in sports are they also willing to do it in business or their personal life? This isn't all UNC fans of course, but only the most vocal ones that crow about how the NCAA found them innocent and know they got away with it.

Heck, it has even changed my mind of NC State and Duke as I see their complete lack of response to the scandal and am disgusted.

[CameronBlue]

I was hoping for maybe John Oliver to take a crack at it last season, but sadly he has his hands full with other, more catastrophic topics to cover.

Like the wax Presidents or the train at the TV station in Scranton (or was it Wilkes-Barre)?

I love Oliver though.

[CDu]

Here is where the argument falls down. If UNC is willing to lie and cheat to win at sports, what else will they lie and cheat about? We know they have fudged the numbers about campus safety and sexual assault, so there is that as well. In an environemnt where an honor code is actively ignored, where faculty do not speak up when they see fraud committed, where everyone remains silent when a whistle blower is attacked, how certain can we be that the rest of the University is operating openly and honestly? How many faculty members or administrators overlook "minor" issues, because they see how speaking up just makes you a target? How many would be whistleblowers stay quite because they know you get treated like Mary Willingham was treated? I have no faith in UNC as an institution that has integrity or operates with honesty. None.

Folks who are unapologetic UNC fans, I have lost respect for. I know if they are willing to condone cheating and support covering up a problem in sports are they also willing to do it in business or their personal life? This isn't all UNC fans of course, but only the most vocal ones that crow about how the NCAA found them innocent and know they got away with it.

Heck, it has even changed my mind of NC State and Duke as I see their complete lack of response to the scandal and am disgusted.

I can tell you having spent the majority of my adult life interacting with professors at various universities that it just isn't on their radar. over 99% of the university doesn't interact with the athletic department at all, and these athletes in question represent like 1/200th of the student population.

For example, the School of Public Health at UNC is an OUTSTANDING program. The research that they produce and the graduates that they produce are top-notch. That much is obvious from the work. The proof is in the pudding. Employers can generally tell the difference between a candidate that hasn't gotten a good education and one that has.

Look, I get that you hate UNC. And I absolutely hate their athletic program (as a Duke grad and huge Duke fan) and think what their administration and athletic department have done. But the reality is that each department essentially acts as an independent entity. The med school, school of public health, school of pharmacy, business school, etc., aren't even accredited by the same service. Same is true for their maths and sciences. These professors are focused on their research and their courses. I'd venture the majority of professors aren't even UNC fans, as the vast majority went to other schools for their formative years. As much as you (and you are not alone) want this to be a bigger reflection of all of UNC, it's just not. It's a reflection of the folks at the very top, of the athletic department, and of the select programs that were running sham programs.

Is the UNC as it relates to the academics of their revenue-sport athletes a sham from top to bottom? Absolutely. But that's a tiny chunk of the university itself. The med school and the UNC hospital? Fantastic. Lineberger Institute is among the best cancer centers in the world. I've already discussed the School of Public Health. We don't have to be so wrapped up in sports to realize that there is a WHOLE lot of good coming out of that university.

[Wander]

I can tell you having spent the majority of my adult life interacting with professors at various universities that it just isn't on their radar. over 99% of the university doesn't interact with the athletic department at all, and these athletes in question represent like 1/200th of the student population.

Co-signed with the same experience. People outside of academia (understandably) tend to overrate how much of a university is devoted to undergraduate education in the first place, and of course athletics is itself just a fraction of that. My current department doesn't even have an undergraduate degree. No one's going to decide to accept or reject a faculty job based on an athletic scandal (except maybe in that specific department for the case of UNC).

[devilseven]

It's still fun to ask any UNCheat grads or current students how many fake courses they took.

[PackMan97]

Co-signed with the same experience. People outside of academia (understandably) tend to overrate how much of a university is devoted to undergraduate education in the first place, and of course athletics is itself just a fraction of that. My current department doesn't even have an undergraduate degree. No one's going to decide to accept or reject a faculty job based on an athletic scandal (except maybe in that specific department for the case of UNC).

That's the problem. People outside academia will judge those inside academia by different standards. Maybe times have changed, but the faculty at NC State certainly cared and forced changes. I draw my conclusions in part from being a student at state during the aftermath of Valvano. Either the Faculty at UNC don't care, or they support it. Either look is not good, imo.

[22JumpShots]

It's still fun to ask any UNCheat grads or current students how many fake courses they took.

:) Sometimes it's the little things in life.

[CDu]

That's the problem. People outside academia will judge those inside academia by different standards. Maybe times have changed, but the faculty at NC State certainly cared and forced changes. I draw my conclusions in part from being a student at state during the aftermath of Valvano. Either the Faculty at UNC don't care, or they support it. Either look is not good, imo.

I think you are vastly overstating how much people outside of academia will be affected. Or, more specifically, I think you are overestimating the extent this will influence the decisions of people who matter.

I am a die-hard Duke bball fan. I am as in tune to the scandal as can be. But I am also now in a non-academic research career. So I want good people to work for me. And I would not hesitate to hire anyone from the departments at UNC which produce job candidates in my line of work (stats, math, public healtjh, pharmacy, etc), because I know they produce high-quality students.

Now, I admit I have a bit of insider knowledge. But I am not alone in this. Aside from the good-natured ribbing (if even that), the scandal just has no impact on my impressions of UNC candidates. And that is equally if not more true in academia. Employers, grad schools, etc., can recognize those applicants who don’t have adequate training and those that do.

[uh_no]

I think you are vastly overstating how much people outside of academia will be affected. Or, more specifically, I think you are overestimating the extent this will influence the decisions of people who matter.


People might be shocked at where the current dean of trinity did her graduate work.... https://admin.trinity.duke.edu/dean/valerie-sheares-ashby

and if I recall, she had a major hand in encouraging the media to sweep the scandal under the rug.....and duke still hired her.....because they really don't care about the scandal.

[UrinalCake]

A recent study of graduation rates among black athletes. Duke is near the top of the list while our friends down the road are near the bottom. Of particular interest (to me) is the differential between black athletes vs. black non-athletes, and black athletes vs. all athletes.

In my heavily biased view, this is not surprising. They brought in predominantly black athletes, shuttled them into fake classes, told them they were too dumb to get a real education, and insisted that “if you wanted an education you should have gone to Harvard.” Plenty of documents reveal a culture of cheating and of sports being the only thing that matters.

On a larger scale, the report reveals a broad cultural issue of the place of black athletes and the opportunities afforded to them. I know this is a sensitive topic so I apologize in advance if this post or this link is offensive. Would love to hear others’ thoughts.

https://race.usc.edu/wp-content/uploads/2018/03/2018_Sports_Report.pdf

[devildeac]

BTTT:

From the N&O this AM:

"Study: Black male athletes at UNC have low graduation rates"


http://www.newsobserver.com/sports/college/article207029314.html

Couple quotes of interest:


"According to the study, 43 percent of black male athletes who entered UNC between 2007 and 2010 graduated within six years – the lowest rate in the ACC." (bolded mine)

"Notre Dame (86 percent) and Duke (81 percent) led the ACC in black male athlete graduation rates."




Well, maybe if you had put them in real courses with real professors and real grades. :mad:

9F 'em.

[left_hook_lacey]

BTTT:

From the N&O this AM:

"Study: Black male athletes at UNC have low graduation rates"


http://www.newsobserver.com/sports/college/article207029314.html

Couple quotes of interest:


"According to the study, 43 percent of black male athletes who entered UNC between 2007 and 2010 graduated within six years – the lowest rate in the ACC." (bolded mine)

"Notre Dame (86 percent) and Duke (81 percent) led the ACC in black male athlete graduation rates."




Well, maybe if you had put them in real courses with real professors and real grades. :mad:

9F 'em.

I think that's what is happening. IIRC, UNC's graduation rate used to be better than that. With the new microscope on the program, and having to actually go to class, that stretches out a 4 year undergraduate degree to about 6 years. :)

To quote the movie Tommy Boy: (From memory, so don't judge)

Tommy: Aren't you happy for me Richard? I graduated college man!

Richard: Yeah, and just a shade under a decade too, alright!

Tommy: Lot's of people go to college for 8 years, Richard.

Richard: Yeah, they're called doctors.

[richardjackson199]

With this post I definitely don't want to re-ignite any debate on how to handle the cheats' cheating on DBR.

But I do miss Olympic Fan, and no doubt others do too. DBR isn't the same without him. He hasn't posted since mid January, and in his last post he said bye, he's done, due to which posts were deleted regarding this issue.

Just 2 cents, but I vote DBR just leave all posts regarding this stuff alone and welcome Oly back if he will come. If not, we miss you Oly and wish you all the best!!

But I hope whatever DBR can do with this to bring Oly back if possible can be done.

[WiJoe]

With this post I definitely don't want to re-ignite any debate on how to handle the cheats' cheating on DBR.

But I do miss Olympic Fan, and no doubt others do too. DBR isn't the same without him. He hasn't posted since mid January, and in his last post he said bye, he's done, due to which posts were deleted regarding this issue.

Just 2 cents, but I vote DBR just leave all posts regarding this stuff alone and welcome Oly back if he will come. If not, we miss you Oly and wish you all the best!!

But I hope whatever DBR can do with this to bring Oly back if possible can be done.



Agree, rj.

dbr is namby-pamby on the cheats.