Professional Advice

[left_hook_lacey]

I work in the pharmaceutical manufacturing industry. I left my old company about 6 months ago for a slightly better position at one of our customer's sites. To get this job, I asked for a letter of recommendation from a former manager of mine, who is now a senior manager at the new company I was applying for. He went out of his way to make sure I got the job.

Fast forward 6 months, and my old company is trying to hire me back in a capacity much more advanced than when I left. I've turned them down twice, but they are now making offers I can't ignore.

So is it uncouth for me to leave my new job so soon after my former manager wrote me a glowing recommendation letter and spoke to the hiring manager personally? Would it offend you if someone did this to you?

I'm worried about burning bridges and the optics of leaving so soon. The pharma manufacturing world is a tight-knit community, with many of the employees bouncing around the various plants in the area.

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

I work in the pharmaceutical manufacturing industry. I left my old company about 6 months ago for a slightly better position at one of our customer's sites. To get this job, I asked for a letter of recommendation from a former manager of mine, who is now a senior manager at the new company I was applying for. He went out of his way to make sure I got the job.

Fast forward 6 months, and my old company is trying to hire me back in a capacity much more advanced than when I left. I've turned them down twice, but they are now making offers I can't ignore.

So is it uncouth for me to leave my new job so soon after my former manager wrote me a glowing recommendation letter and spoke to the hiring manager personally? Would it offend you if someone did this to you?

I'm worried about burning bridges and the optics of leaving so soon. The pharma manufacturing world is a tight-knit community, with many of the employees bouncing around the various plants in the area.

First of all, congrats on having very good options! I see three options:

1) Most industries seem to have an unwritten rule thag anything less than a year or eighteen months at a job without a supercompelling reason looks poor. If it is a one-time leap, I don't think anyone would look at it twice, but again, I don't know the particulars of your industry. In other words, stay put for anothet six to twelve months, then look at options.

2) Screw it, take the job. The optics of returning to a previous employer are obviously different than going to a new job, and your number one obligation is to yourself and your financial obligations. You can build a good narrative around why you went back to this company, and people who know you will understand.

3) Leverage your old company's interest in you for a better situation at your new job. This is the trickiest plan, but long term might be most lucrative. Go to your current employer and say "I sure like it here, but I have an obligation to listen to what my alternatives are. Can you make it more attractive for me to stay?". High risk, high reward.

Good luck! You seem to be in a great situation.

[left_hook_lacey]

First of all, congrats on having very good options! I see three options:

1) Most industries seem to have an unwritten rule thag anything less than a year or eighteen months at a job without a supercompelling reason looks poor. If it is a one-time leap, I don't think anyone would look at it twice, but again, I don't know the particulars of your industry. In other words, stay put for anothet six to twelve months, then look at options.

2) Screw it, take the job. The optics of returning to a previous employer are obviously different than going to a new job, and your number one obligation is to yourself and your financial obligations. You can build a good narrative around why you went back to this company, and people who know you will understand.

3) Leverage your old company's interest in you for a better situation at your new job. This is the trickiest plan, but long term might be most lucrative. Go to your current employer and say "I sure like it here, but I have an obligation to listen to what my alternatives are. Can you make it more attractive for me to stay?". High risk, high reward.

Good luck! You seem to be in a great situation.

Thank you so much. This is exactly the type of advice I was looking for. You've even given me a few phrases to use that until now, I was struggling to put into words how to discuss my position with the former company and the current one.

One more thing while I have you and since you seem to have a nose for this. I have an interview with the former job later this month. How do I navigate the whole "why are you leaving your current job" questions without sounding arrogant or rude? My first response in my head is "Dude, you called me!", or "I'm not leaving my current job unless this job is as good as you said it would be!"

I know that's not the way to say it, but I'm not good and tip toeing around the obvious. Interviews are so full of BS.

[swood1000]

I work in the pharmaceutical manufacturing industry. I left my old company about 6 months ago for a slightly better position at one of our customer's sites. To get this job, I asked for a letter of recommendation from a former manager of mine, who is now a senior manager at the new company I was applying for. He went out of his way to make sure I got the job.

Fast forward 6 months, and my old company is trying to hire me back in a capacity much more advanced than when I left. I've turned them down twice, but they are now making offers I can't ignore.

So is it uncouth for me to leave my new job so soon after my former manager wrote me a glowing recommendation letter and spoke to the hiring manager personally? Would it offend you if someone did this to you?

I'm worried about burning bridges and the optics of leaving so soon. The pharma manufacturing world is a tight-knit community, with many of the employees bouncing around the various plants in the area.

Have you considered giving your current employer the opportunity to meet that offer? If they did would you want to stay? Such interest from an employer who knows you well would be impressive. It might start a conversation about how fast they see you progressing up the ladder.

At some point, if there has been no implied or explicit promise to stay, no reasonable person could expect you to turn down such an offer. If you were offered $10 million per year for example.

How possible is it that after six months the old employer would find your performance in the new position less than they bargained for and tell you that you could have your old job back or be terminated? Would you want a contract of a guaranteed length and would that be available?

My assumption is that the more junior an employee is the more effort in takes to train him, so that six months might be when some employees really start to be productive. Were you productive from day one in your current job?

[swood1000]

How do I navigate the whole "why are you leaving your current job" questions without sounding arrogant or rude? My first response in my head is "Dude, you called me!", or "I'm not leaving my current job unless this job is as good as you said it would be!"

That seems to be the type of question you get when you apply to a job opening out of the blue. Wouldn't your interview be with the same people whom you have already turned down twice? Isn't the position much more attractive and doesn't it pay much more than your current position? It seems unlikely that they would ask you that. Furthermore, if they want you that much then they're less likely to ask you unpleasant questions but they might try to divine how long you're likely to stay or whether by leaving you are breaking a promise you made to your current employer.

[left_hook_lacey]

Have you considered giving your current employer the opportunity to meet that offer? If they did would you want to stay? Such interest from an employer who knows you well would be impressive. It might start a conversation about how fast they see you progressing up the ladder.

At some point, if there has been no implied or explicit promise to stay, no reasonable person could expect you to turn down such an offer. If you were offered $10 million per year for example.

How possible is it that after six months the old employer would find your performance in the new position less than they bargained for and tell you that you could have your old job back or be terminated? Would you want a contract of a guaranteed length and would that be available?

My assumption is that the more junior an employee is the more effort in takes to train him, so that six months might be when some employees really start to be productive. Were you productive from day one in your current job?

A.) I have considered it. One of the main reasons, other than the benefits, that I accepted this position is for the exposure to some higher-level technologies they have here that are industry leading and can solidify a resume in this industry.
B.) I think they would have to beat the offer for me to stay because my commute is almost double here. I miss the extra time I had before and after work that I spend driving now.
C.) Not very likely that they would find my performance undesirable. It takes quite a bit of time to understand what they do, and the managers in this department know that when I left, I was one of the best, and had been labeled "rising star" in my last performance review. I know more about what they do, than they do. Not trying to sound arrogant at all, but of all things, this would be the least of my worries.
D.) I don't think they do guaranteed contracts at my level, unless I was coming in as a private contractor. They don't really do that very often.
E.) No, I wasn't productive in my first two months here. Not because I wasn't performing, it's just the way the training is set up. We're not allowed to even come close to a clean room or anything that comes in contact with the drugs until many classes are taken and exams passed. The first few months are like being in school really. I'm just now being allowed to assist on projects that have direct drug contact.

[left_hook_lacey]

That seems to be the type of question you get when you apply to a job opening out of the blue. Wouldn't your interview be with the same people whom you have already turned down twice? Isn't the position much more attractive and doesn't it pay much more than your current position? It seems unlikely that they would ask you that. Furthermore, if they want you that much then they're less likely to ask you unpleasant questions but they might try to divine how long you're likely to stay or whether by leaving you are breaking a promise you made to your current employer.

Yeah, I guess I should've specified. The director of operations, and the engineering manager are the ones that have been in contact with me wanting me to come back. They are 2 of 5 interviews that day and only have a partial voice in the final decision. I was more referring to the HR reps and regional managers I have to interview with. They have the final say on the hiring and benefits package. They will likely not have any clue that I was recruited to come back, and will likely be reading questions from a script like a robot, in my experience.

[PackMan97]

How do I navigate the whole "why are you leaving your current job" questions without sounding arrogant or rude? My first response in my head is "Dude, you called me!", or "I'm not leaving my current job unless this job is as good as you said it would be!"

In your best Marlin Brando voice, "You are going to make me an offer I can't refuse". If it's a big step up, just go with that and then talk about what you've done to prepare for the responsibility the new position brings.

I've always asked this question in an interview to see if the person is toxic. You'd be surprised at the number of folks that would go off about their old boss, or coworkers, or office space and just give a big long list of things they hated about their old job. That's pretty much an instant "No" for anyone I'm hiring. What I want to see is not excitement or desire to leave the old job, but excitement and desire for the opportunity I am offering.

[left_hook_lacey]

In your best Marlin Brando voice, "You are going to make me an offer I can't refuse". If it's a big step up, just go with that and then talk about what you've done to prepare for the responsibility the new position brings.

I've always asked this question in an interview to see if the person is toxic. You'd be surprised at the number of folks that would go off about their old boss, or coworkers, or office space and just give a big long list of things they hated about their old job. That's pretty much an instant "No" for anyone I'm hiring. What I want to see is not excitement or desire to leave the old job, but excitement and desire for the opportunity I am offering.

Thanks PackMan.

[Channing]

Just to keep in mind, is there any risk that you have had access to confidential info at the current company where they may think you are taking trade secrets back to the old company?

[swood1000]

What percentage of your current salary is the offered salary?

[left_hook_lacey]

What percentage of your current salary is the offered salary?

Would be a 15% increase over what I'm making now. Benefits pretty much the same.

[Jeffrey]

Would be a 15% increase over what I'm making now. Benefits pretty much the same.

How old are you?

[cato]

Be careful about how/if you tell your current employer about an opportunity with your former employer. In my line of work, it is very hard to find certain employees. I have seen an example of one of those employees using another offer to negotiate a promotion and raise. The employer felt trapped, and basically had to meet the request/demand. But the instant the deal was done, the employer started quietly looking for a replacement that would not be so quick to leap for another opportunity.

[Jeffrey]

Be careful about how/if you tell your current employer about an opportunity with your former employer. In my line of work, it is very hard to find certain employees. I have seen an example of one of those employees using another offer to negotiate a promotion and raise. The employer felt trapped, and basically had to meet the request/demand. But the instant the deal was done, the employer started quietly looking for a replacement that would not be so quick to leap for another opportunity.

Great advice and insight! IMO, the employer made the prudent decision.

IMO, this is where the world is heading. Employees and employers are going to become less and less loyal to each other. It's ultimately bad for both. Employees better do some great retirement planning.

[swood1000]

Is the rank being offered 15% over your current rank?

You said your former manager wrote a glowing recommendation. Did they decline to match your current salary because they couldn’t pay that for your former position and then suddenly the current position came open?

How much of a benefit will the higher level technologies you have been exposed to be to your old company? Did you sign a non-disclosure agreement? Will that become an issue? Did you sign a non-compete agreement that they could argue is in play?

[Jeffrey]

FWIW, my crystal ball...

Robots and AI are going to replace 30% of all U.S. jobs within the next 20 years. For the most part, those will be the lowest paying positions. Hopefully, a universal income will cover the many unemployed.

Higher and practical education is mandatory. IMO, almost all U.S. high school dropouts will not be able to find work 20 years from now. Making yourself irreplaceable becomes even more critical. People with great knowledge, ideas, creativity, innovation, and management skills will be extremely well rewarded! If I were under 40, I would not make current pay my highest priority. Gain the knowledge & skills and the pay will follow.

[Turk]

I work in the pharmaceutical manufacturing industry. I left my old company about 6 months ago for a slightly better position at one of our customer's sites. To get this job, I asked for a letter of recommendation from a former manager of mine, who is now a senior manager at the new company I was applying for. He went out of his way to make sure I got the job.



The only thing I would care about damaging in the new company would be my personal relationship with the senior manager who went to bat for me. If I decided to take the offer, I would seek out the manager for a 1-on-1 and tell him the story and express my gratitude and as much of the details of the "godfather" offer as would be appropriate.

As for reasons for leaving, I always go with the standard breakup "it's not you, it's me" line. No reason to take anything other than the high road. I would also suggest that leaving after 6 months isn't that big a deal - you really haven't had time to form new relationships. You're not gonna make them lonesome when you go... YMMV.

[left_hook_lacey]

Is the rank being offered 15% over your current rank?

You said your former manager wrote a glowing recommendation. Did they decline to match your current salary because they couldn’t pay that for your former position and then suddenly the current position came open?

How much of a benefit will the higher level technologies you have been exposed to be to your old company? Did you sign a non-disclosure agreement? Will that become an issue? Did you sign a non-compete agreement that they could argue is in play?

I think I confused you, unintentionally.

I had a manager at my previous job, he left for greener pastures before I did. It just so happens, a few months later, I ended up leaving for the same company that he did. We are both here now at said new company. He is a senior manager here, and wrote me the recommendation to get me in the door, which is why I was having reservations about leaving. I didn't know how it would hurt our relationship given such a short stay here for me.

Now, my former employer is offering me to go back there in a higher-level position than before I left.

The higher level technology would be of little value at the form employer from a performance stand point, other than the fact that my current employer is a customer of the old employer. My former employer loves to have people on staff that can speak to those technologies during FDA audits, or customer(which would be the company I work for now) audits.

There is no non-compete agreement or non-disclosure agreement.

[BigWayne]

If you like working where you are now and are willing to keep doing the commute, I would go talk to the senior manager that recommended you before you go back for the job interview at the old company, assuming you feel this is a person you can trust. They may be aware of ways to improve your position in your current company that are not publicly known.

If you really want to go back to the old employer, then just try to negotiate the best deal you can get out of them. Go into that negotiation with the position that you are not unhappy where you are now, but are willing to come back if their offer is attractive enough.

The one thing I would not do is try to be too sneaky about anything. Given that the one company is a customer of the other, there are probably lots of communication paths between the two.

[Reilly]

Get a puppy. Then do whatever you want. Sounds like you want to go back to the old job. Whatever you choose, blame the dog.

"The commute was too much for the dog, I had to go back."

"Oh, I can't go back, I just got settled at the new place, got a puppy, I'm at a really good place in life."

Make sure it's a cute puppy. Then, show whoever you're explaining things to a photo of said dog. They'll understand.

if things don't work out, you'll have a puppy.

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

Get a puppy. Then do whatever you want. Sounds like you want to go back to the old job. Whatever you choose, blame the dog.

"The commute was too much for the dog, I had to go back."

"Oh, I can't go back, I just got settled at the new place, got a puppy, I'm at a really good place in life."

Make sure it's a cute puppy. Then, show whoever you're explaining things to a photo of said dog. They'll understand.

if things don't work out, you'll have a puppy.

This guy sounds like management material.

[YmoBeThere]

You described having left the old job to this job as having sought out greener pastures. Why did you leave the old job? Unhappy with role, compensation, culture, etc.? Which of those will be changing if you go back. FWIW, I took a counter-offer years ago, but ended up leaving after 18 months anyway. The culture was just not for me and that won out in the end...

[mgtr]

I worked in NYC for quite a few years at a really large company. I saw people come and go -- the really good ones got away with the revolving door approach without blotting their copy book, others got a bad rep. In your situation, I really wonder if 15% is a sufficient increase to change everything. However, it sounds as though you have non-salary preferences for the original company. If it is just about money, I would talk to someone in your current company to see what arrangements can be made. If you are good, they will pay up to keep you.

[BandAlum83]

If you return to your old company within a year, you will not incur a break in service for eligibility for benefits. So, for instance, if you are in danger of forfeiting company match on your 401(k) contributions, your service will be restored as though you never left. Chances are also that you won't have any waiting period for Health insurance.

Not a big deal, I know, but something people don't always calculate into their decision making.

Otherwise, I see a lot of good info in the responses here.

Also, the article is a few years old, but still on point:

Employees Who Stay In Companies Longer Than Two Years Get Paid 50% Less (https://www.forbes.com/sites/cameronkeng/2014/06/22/employees-that-stay-in-companies-longer-than-2-years-get-paid-50-less/#1fbf5870e07f)


Staying employed at the same company for over two years on average is going to make you earn less over your lifetime by about 50% or more.

In 2014, the average employee is going to earn less than a 1% raise and there is very little that we can do to change management’s decision. But, we can decide whether we want to stay at a company that is going to give us a raise for less than 1%. The average raise an employee receives for leaving is between a 10% to 20% increase in salary.

[left_hook_lacey]

If you return to your old company within a year, you will not incur a break in service for eligibility for benefits. So, for instance, if you are in danger of forfeiting company match on your 401(k) contributions, your service will be restored as though you never left. Chances are also that you won't have any waiting period for Health insurance.

Not a big deal, I know, but something people don't always calculate into their decision making.

Otherwise, I see a lot of good info in the responses here.

Also, the article is a few years old, but still on point:

Employees Who Stay In Companies Longer Than Two Years Get Paid 50% Less (https://www.forbes.com/sites/cameronkeng/2014/06/22/employees-that-stay-in-companies-longer-than-2-years-get-paid-50-less/#1fbf5870e07f)


Is this a mandated law or just a general rule for most companies? Does it include things like vacation accruement and tuition reimbursement? Those two things are part of what I'll be negotiating if I go back. I want my vacation service years to start back where I left off as I'd be getting another week of vacation in a couple years. Also, I'm going back to school, and since I've left my old job, I'm having to sit through the one year waiting period at my new job before they'll sponsor tuition reimbursement.

[Jeffrey]

Also, the article is a few years old, but still on point:

Employees Who Stay In Companies Longer Than Two Years Get Paid 50% Less (https://www.forbes.com/sites/cameronkeng/2014/06/22/employees-that-stay-in-companies-longer-than-2-years-get-paid-50-less/#1fbf5870e07f)

FWIW, I disagree with the articles methodology and conclusion.

[swood1000]

Also, the article is a few years old, but still on point:

Employees Who Stay In Companies Longer Than Two Years Get Paid 50% Less (https://www.forbes.com/sites/cameronkeng/2014/06/22/employees-that-stay-in-companies-longer-than-2-years-get-paid-50-less/#1fbf5870e07f)

It also seems intuitive that less competent people might have greater reluctance to switch jobs as long as their current position is secure. Who can say what will happen after six months at a new job, especially if they sold themselves as being more productive than was warranted? This would account for at least a part of the people who don't switch jobs are paid less.

[PackMan97]

Is this a mandated law or just a general rule for most companies? Does it include things like vacation accruement and tuition reimbursement? Those two things are part of what I'll be negotiating if I go back. I want my vacation service years to start back where I left off as I'd be getting another week of vacation in a couple years. Also, I'm going back to school, and since I've left my old job, I'm having to sit through the one year waiting period at my new job before they'll sponsor tuition reimbursement.

I would think it's just a rule. My employer has a 6mo look back for keeping seniority, a former employer had two years.

[left_hook_lacey]

It also seems intuitive that less competent people might have greater reluctance to switch jobs as long as their current position is secure. Who can say what will happen after six months at a new job, especially if they sold themselves as being more productive than was warranted? This would account for at least a part of the people who don't switch jobs are paid less.

FWIW, articles like the one mentioned up thread, combined with my own observations of, and conversations with, other colleagues in my field are what drove me to entertain the idea of leaving in the first place.

Case in point, my salary will have increased 31% in 6 months simply by leaving and then going back. I had spoken to some higher level people at my old company, and upon finding out that they were actually in their 2nd stint with the company I asked, "Why did you leave in the first place? You like it here and are good at the job." Each time, their responses were some version of "the fastest way to advance in both pay and rank is to leave. If you really like the company, you should leave for a couple of years, get your pay and rank bumps, then come back. It'll be exponentially worth it later in your career."

Another case study. One of my old managers had been at that company for 19 years. He started there straight out of high school as an operator on the shop floor, worked his way through college, moved up the ranks. He eventually became production manager over the entire site at 30 years old and was next in line to be operations manager. He loved the place and never thought about leaving. Then, we got a new VP of operations over North America and they butted heads. Long story short, for the first time ever, he looked elsewhere. Within four weeks, he had another job, higher rank, more pay, more vacation, more prestigious company. If he had changed companies two, maybe three times over those 19 years, how much could he be making now?

[Jeffrey]

FWIW, articles like the one mentioned up thread, combined with my own observations of, and conversations with, other colleagues in my field are what drove me to entertain the idea of leaving in the first place.

Case in point, my salary will have increased 31% in 6 months simply by leaving and then going back. I had spoken to some higher level people at my old company, and upon finding out that they were actually in their 2nd stint with the company I asked, "Why did you leave in the first place? You like it here and are good at the job." Each time, their responses were some version of "the fastest way to advance in both pay and rank is to leave. If you really like the company, you should leave for a couple of years, get your pay and rank bumps, then come back. It'll be exponentially worth it later in your career."

Another case study. One of my old managers had been at that company for 19 years. He started there straight out of high school as an operator on the shop floor, worked his way through college, moved up the ranks. He eventually became production manager over the entire site at 30 years old and was next in line to be operations manager. He loved the place and never thought about leaving. Then, we got a new VP of operations over North America and they butted heads. Long story short, for the first time ever, he looked elsewhere. Within four weeks, he had another job, higher rank, more pay, more vacation, more prestigious company. If he had changed companies two, maybe three times over those 19 years, how much could he be making now?

You appear certain it's your best approach. So, why are you hesitating?

[swood1000]

These seem to be the reasons for moving:


15% salary increase
Position with more authority.
Current job has double the commute time. (Hopefully this does not involve a current commute of 20 minutes. I used to work in New York City, where a commute of an hour does not seem at all onerous.) When you accepted the offer with your current company you didn’t realize the impact on your personal life.
The bad optics of moving too quickly can be overcome by moving but staying at the company for a period of time.
It may be a long time before such an opportunity is available, and the next one might require a move to a different city.

Reasons for staying:

During your first two months your current company paid you to go to school, a complete financial loss for them. After that it took time before you were completely trained and you are just now being fully productive (and probably have not yet been able to give them the performance that they eventually expected when they hired you). The current firm has not yet been able to recover the cost of training you, so their experience with you has been a net financial loss and hiring you was a big mistake through no fault of theirs.
You have had to take many classes and pass exams. All of that will be down the drain except to enable your old company to trot you out in order to bedazzle FDA auditors and make the company seem more proficient than is warranted.
By leaving you’ll be giving up working with the new technologies, which could give you access to positions at other firms paying even more and being more enjoyable, especially if the current firm has a higher profile in the industry. Your lack of knowledge in this and other areas available in your current company could derail your career potential and make you less attractive to the big players. In ten years’ time the absence of such knowledge/experience could make your skill set seem antiquated. Consider the relative value of immediate benefit compared to the opportunities you are foreclosing.
Bad optics of moving too quickly could make you ineligible for transfer for a period of time. If you go back to the old company you would have to overcome this by staying for a period of time, making it impossible to accept offers elsewhere during that time, especially if you make such a commitment during your interviews in order to induce them to formalize the offer.
The presumed benefit of multiple job changes may assume that you have a record of staying at those jobs for longer than your training period.

Go to Amazon and find a book aimed at advising people who have not stayed long enough in their current jobs, and are considering leaving, as to what kinds of questions to expect from prospective employers and the best ways to answer them without deceit.

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

It seems to me you want to make the move, but need justification. As I said, I don't know your industry, but I would think that your narrative, if asked in the furture could be summed up neatly:

I had a good job with a good company. A former boss encouraged me to follow him to a new opportunity, which I indulged. After a short time, I realized that the previous employer was a better fit for me and they made me a generous offer. I was welcomed back with open arms, and I am thankful for that.

Note: this explanation works only once. If you don't stick with the new/old job for a significant amount of time, you will open yourself up to more scrutiny.

[Jeffrey]

Note: this explanation works only once. If you don't stick with the new/old job for a significant amount of time, you will open yourself up to more scrutiny.

Note: this is not in harmony with the article linked above, "Employees Who Stay In Companies Longer Than Two Years Get Paid 50% Less".

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

Note: this is not in harmony with the article linked above, "Employees Who Stay In Companies Longer Than Two Years Get Paid 50% Less".

Different perspectives.

[Jeffrey]

Different perspectives.

Absolutely, and I strongly agree with yours!

[CrazyNotCrazie]

One minor piece of advice here: if you go back to your original employer, can you hold off until January before resigning. That way your resume will say "2017-2018" for the place you are leaving. A few years down the road, people can assume you were there for 1.5 years. Obviously, if you are specifically asked, you should be honest and others have provided good ideas, but this will help with the optics.

[BandAlum83]

One minor piece of advice here: if you go back to your original employer, can you hold off until January before resigning. That way your resume will say "2017-2018" for the place you are leaving. A few years down the road, people can assume you were there for 1.5 years. Obviously, if you are specifically asked, you should be honest and others have provided good ideas, but this will help with the optics.

Resumes really should include month and year of the start and end of employment. If I see a resume without that, I will heavily scrutinize in order to see what the candidate might be hiding. Worst case, the individual won't get an interview. I probably have plenty of other candidates and can't interview everyone. That one item could be disqualifying.

[swood1000]

One minor piece of advice here: if you go back to your original employer, can you hold off until January before resigning. That way your resume will say "2017-2018" for the place you are leaving. A few years down the road, people can assume you were there for 1.5 years. Obviously, if you are specifically asked, you should be honest and others have provided good ideas, but this will help with the optics.

On the other hand, this could make the person appear less than straightforward, and somewhat disingenuous, if the interviewer asks the exact length of time. He might then start wondering what else on the résumé should be questioned and whether they want to hire a person who appears to have a penchant for making misleading but technically true statements.

[BandAlum83]

Is this a mandated law or just a general rule for most companies? Does it include things like vacation accruement and tuition reimbursement? Those two things are part of what I'll be negotiating if I go back. I want my vacation service years to start back where I left off as I'd be getting another week of vacation in a couple years. Also, I'm going back to school, and since I've left my old job, I'm having to sit through the one year waiting period at my new job before they'll sponsor tuition reimbursement.

It is a law for any pension or welfare benefit plan that is protected under ERISA. So 401(k) plans and health plans are a clear yes. There is some case law (I am not an attorney, I have consulted in the HR, payroll and benefit space for 30+ years) that would lead one to conclude that tuition reimbursement plans and vacation plans are not ERISA protected benefits.


Link (https://law.freeadvice.com/insurance_law/insurance_law/what-benefits-are-subject-to-erisa-claims.htm)while ERISA can cover almost any type of benefit, some are not. He explained, “[T]he Department of Labor issued a ruling early on excluding unemployment benefits and most vacation benefit plans. While many employers have tried to create ERISA plans for their vacation benefits so they could escape from state laws, most attempts have failed.”

That being said, some companies may have policies to bridge service for these plans. Generally speaking, these plans cannot be discriminatory, so "special deals" that are negotiated just for you will probably not be possible, unless they are wrapped into some sort of signing bonus or ongoing incentive bonus. Don't be surprised if you are told negotiating either benefit is off the table. Instead, try to negotiate a signing bonus. Ongoing incentive plans at many companies are standardized, so you may have no leverage there.

And as I said, this isn't legal advice, it's life and professional experience advice.

[CrazyNotCrazie]

Resumes really should include month and year of the start and end of employment. If I see a resume without that, I will heavily scrutinize in order to see what the candidate might be hiding. Worst case, the individual won't get an interview. I probably have plenty of other candidates and can't interview everyone. That one item could be disqualifying.

To each his own. I personally find the month to be useless clutter and not something I focus on at all when looking at a resume. And this is how I have structured my resume and have never been asked about it (I work in finance in NY and my current and last employer were globally recognized firms). As I said, I 100% recommend complete honesty but this way it doesn't jump off the page as much. The key is that now that he is making this quick move, it is that much more important to plan to stay for a while.

I know others who would advocate for leaving the short term position off altogether. This is more practical in some situations than others and one can debate the ethics of this too.

[swood1000]

I know others who would advocate for leaving the short term position off altogether. This is more practical in some situations than others and one can debate the ethics of this too.

What is debatable about that not being straightforward deceit since the application asks for “all” and it is left off in order to mislead, the same as leaving off a job that will supply a poor reference? Furthermore it would be discovered when the prior job is contacted to verify the information and reason for departure. Even if it was not, he would thereafter have to worry that in an unguarded moment he might mention something about the omitted job and could be fired (who knows the attitude of some firms about duplicity), leaving him then with a résumé entry involving a job from which he was fired for dishonesty.

[swood1000]

In your interviews with the old firm be ready for being asked questions involving
 
a. Can they count on you only until your next offer of a 15% increase in salary? If longer than that, how long, and why does the same not apply to your current job?

b. What are the reasons you have for moving/staying, and what is the relative weight of each component?

c. Didn’t you consider the inconvenience of the additional commute time before accepting your current job? Maybe your satisfaction with the offered position will be similarly short-lived. Are you capricious?

d. When you were hired at your current position did they have a right to expect that you would not leave immediately upon being trained? Do you feel guilty about leaving so soon? Why or why not? If yes, what are your criteria for being willing to leave anyway? (If not, they may wonder whether you are simply not capable of feeling guilt. Are you a sociopath?)

f. If they make you a formal offer of the amount discussed are you prepared to accept it or are you going to ask for a counteroffer from your current company?

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

In your interviews with the old firm be ready for being asked questions involving
 
a. Can they count on you only until your next offer of a 15% increase in salary? If longer than that, how long, and why does the same not apply to your current job?

b. What are the reasons you have for moving/staying, and what is the relative weight of each component?

c. Didn’t you consider the inconvenience of the additional commute time before accepting your current job? Maybe your satisfaction with the offered position will be similarly short-lived. Are you capricious?

d. When you were hired at your current position did they have a right to expect that you would not leave immediately upon being trained? Do you feel guilty about leaving so soon? Why or why not? If yes, what are your criteria for being willing to leave anyway? (If not, they may wonder whether you are simply not capable of feeling guilt. Are you a sociopath?)

f. If they make you a formal offer of the amount discussed are you prepared to accept it or are you going to ask for a counteroffer from your current company?

Those sound like wildly aggressive questions for a company that approached you.

[Jeffrey]

In your interviews with the old firm be ready for being asked questions involving
 
a. Can they count on you only until your next offer of a 15% increase in salary? If longer than that, how long, and why does the same not apply to your current job?

b. What are the reasons you have for moving/staying, and what is the relative weight of each component?

c. Didn’t you consider the inconvenience of the additional commute time before accepting your current job? Maybe your satisfaction with the offered position will be similarly short-lived. Are you capricious?

d. When you were hired at your current position did they have a right to expect that you would not leave immediately upon being trained? Do you feel guilty about leaving so soon? Why or why not? If yes, what are your criteria for being willing to leave anyway? (If not, they may wonder whether you are simply not capable of feeling guilt. Are you a sociopath?)

f. If they make you a formal offer of the amount discussed are you prepared to accept it or are you going to ask for a counteroffer from your current company?

I'd be most concerned about question "e". Those hidden questions can be tough.

[swood1000]

Those sound like wildly aggressive questions for a company that approached you.

Yes, but they are meant to represent questions the interviewers may have in their minds, not the wording that they would use. I would expect those who have been making the offers not to ask questions in this area at all (except maybe to be ready in case "somebody asks"), but others, higher up in the company, who interview him, may feel worried that he wouldn’t be a good hire unless they can see that he will be committed to the company. These questions are just different ways of getting at that. Of course nobody would ask him if he is a sociopath but if he expressed no misgivings about leaving the company so soon some might wonder why. Nor would he be asked if he is capricious, but I can imagine more artfully phrased questions designed to uncover the same information.

[swood1000]

I'd be most concerned about question "e". Those hidden questions can be tough.

Question "e" was combined with current "d" and I wasn't using the "Numbered list" option because it won't allow spaces between the questions.

[Jeffrey]

This may be another example of a bunch of old guys still debating the best approach to a decision a millennial made yesterday.

[swood1000]

This may be another example of a bunch of old guys still debating the best approach to a decision a millennial made yesterday.
But I don't think he's had his interview yet.

[PackMan97]

This may be another example of a bunch of old guys still debating the best approach to a decision a millennial made yesterday.

Your right, instead that millennial brought his mom to the interview.

[duke79]

Your right, instead that millennial brought his mom to the interview.

LOL.....harsh but very funny! In reality, the millennial would let his mom go to the interview alone and the son would stay home to text his similarly-unemployed friends from his smart phone, whose bill is being for by his parents!

[CrazyNotCrazie]

In your interviews with the old firm be ready for being asked questions involving
 
a. Can they count on you only until your next offer of a 15% increase in salary? If longer than that, how long, and why does the same not apply to your current job?

b. What are the reasons you have for moving/staying, and what is the relative weight of each component?

c. Didn’t you consider the inconvenience of the additional commute time before accepting your current job? Maybe your satisfaction with the offered position will be similarly short-lived. Are you capricious?

d. When you were hired at your current position did they have a right to expect that you would not leave immediately upon being trained? Do you feel guilty about leaving so soon? Why or why not? If yes, what are your criteria for being willing to leave anyway? (If not, they may wonder whether you are simply not capable of feeling guilt. Are you a sociopath?)

f. If they make you a formal offer of the amount discussed are you prepared to accept it or are you going to ask for a counteroffer from your current company?

I think that thematically these are very important questions to be prepared for. I think that swood was just trying to get his thoughts out so wasn't intentionally being snarky - if someone who you might end up reporting to asked them this bluntly I would likely run quickly away. But they are definitely things you should think about and be ready to address. The bottom line is that you need to have your story straight as to why you are leaving very quickly. I think you have generally explained the reasons well upthread, but be sure to be 100% prepared.

[Turk]

In your interviews with the old firm be ready for being asked questions involving
 
a. Can they count on you only until your next offer of a 15% increase in salary? If longer than that, how long, and why does the same not apply to your current job?

b. What are the reasons you have for moving/staying, and what is the relative weight of each component?

c. Didn’t you consider the inconvenience of the additional commute time before accepting your current job? Maybe your satisfaction with the offered position will be similarly short-lived. Are you capricious?

d. When you were hired at your current position did they have a right to expect that you would not leave immediately upon being trained? Do you feel guilty about leaving so soon? Why or why not? If yes, what are your criteria for being willing to leave anyway? (If not, they may wonder whether you are simply not capable of feeling guilt. Are you a sociopath?)

f. If they make you a formal offer of the amount discussed are you prepared to accept it or are you going to ask for a counteroffer from your current company?

If someone ever asked if I was "capricious" or a "sociopath" in a job interview, I would reply, "Who do you think you are? If this is how you talk to your job candidates, I can't imagine how you treat your employees, but I doubt it's good. You obviously don't know much about high-performing organizations. I made a mistake coming in here and I withdraw my application. Good day to you, sir / ma'am."

My days of groveling before some interviewer desperately begging for whatever loose change might fall my way are long gone.

P.S. Reilly already handled this upthread brilliantly; go back and re-read it. The answer in each case is "I got a puppy". Works for me.

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

I think that thematically these are very important questions to be prepared for. I think that swood was just trying to get his thoughts out so wasn't intentionally being snarky - if someone who you might end up reporting to asked them this bluntly I would likely run quickly away. But they are definitely things you should think about and be ready to address. The bottom line is that you need to have your story straight as to why you are leaving very quickly. I think you have generally explained the reasons well upthread, but be sure to be 100% prepared.

I would still be appalled if a company that approached me conducted the interview in this manner.

[swood1000]

After the offer is solid and you decide to accept it, ask the former manager for some fatherly advice. What would he advise you to do? Maybe he’ll agree with the move, thus freeing you from guilt. Also you'll then be able to say that even he advised you to accept the offer.

[Jeffrey]

But I don't think he's had his interview yet.

Why would there be an interview? He/she has worked there recently and they've made him/her an offer.

[swood1000]

Why would there be an interview? He/she has worked there recently and they've made him/her an offer.
See this post.

[left_hook_lacey]

After the offer is solid and you decide to accept it, ask the former manager for some fatherly advice. What would he advise you to do? Maybe he’ll agree with the move, thus freeing you from guilt. Also you'll then be able to say that even he advised you to accept the offer.

This is actually a pretty smart move. I think I will. If he feels empowered in my decision to go, it may make him go from feeling betrayed, to feeling like he's helping me advance. Again.

So the gentlemen that are vying to get me back in the door called me Friday evening. They let me know what was discussed in the managers meeting they always have when discussing potential new hires. When my name came up, these were the feelings...

Technology Transfer Global ops Manager: "I think he is extremely smart and results focused. He knows our products inside and out. The only reason he left in the first place was to get more money. He had been promised that opportunity here, but couldn't get a guarantee on when or how much. So he bolted. I would have too. Now he's back, and you're going to have to pay him. He has my vote, and if he gets in the door, I could see him sitting in any of your chairs in 3-4 years."

Quality Manager: "He has my vote. I was disappointed when he left. He was the first person to embrace our statistical process control software and apply it to make improvements. He did it without being asked and taught himself. We have people here now that still don't know how to use it.

Site Manager "I never really got to see his work, he left shortly after I arrived here. I've heard nothing but good things, but I never saw anything personally that wow'd me, but like I said, we weren't exposed to each other very much before he left.

Site HR Manager "I want to see some humility from him during the interview process."

The last one from the HR manager really baffled me. Humility? They came to me. I'm not coming in with my hat in my hand begging for a job to get off the streets. I'm exploring a potential opportunity for advancement at a company I'm familiar with. If we can't come to an agreement, no harm no foul. But humility? I'm an humble person by nature, but I'm not sure what he's asking for there. That guy is kind of a jerk anyway. He has a holier than thou attitude that I've always just ignored.

I asked the guys that called me if the HR manager knew or remembered that I left on my own fruition? They said yes, and they spoke up for me, saying that I left on good terms with everyone, and that the only reason I left was for advancement.

Interview is Wed. We shall see.

[DukieInKansas]

Good luck with the interview and decision process.

[Jeffrey]

See this post.

I was confused by the original post:


I've turned them down twice, but they are now making offers I can't ignore.

[swood1000]

Site HR Manager "I want to see some humility from him during the interview process."

“That guy is kind of a jerk anyway. He has a holier than thou attitude that I've always just ignored.”


Maybe his comment simply indicates ruffled feathers caused by a perception that in the past you have ignored him out of a sense of contempt. Maybe he thinks that’s your general attitude towards others, and that you are generally too big for your britches. (Perhaps you could convince him that you are not contemptuous toward everybody, just him. Just kidding.)

I don’t know how to go about rehabilitating your relationship with him during this interview, especially if you really are contemptuous of him, except to take pains not to show it to hum during the interview. Also, copious quantities of mea culpa and sorrow for not staying long enough in your current job, something that keeps you up at night, may soften him up. You wish there were something you could do to make it up to them. And when the others see no lack of humility from you they may discount his claim.

[CrazyNotCrazie]

This is actually a pretty smart move. I think I will. If he feels empowered in my decision to go, it may make him go from feeling betrayed, to feeling like he's helping me advance. Again.

So the gentlemen that are vying to get me back in the door called me Friday evening. They let me know what was discussed in the managers meeting they always have when discussing potential new hires. When my name came up, these were the feelings...

Technology Transfer Global ops Manager: "I think he is extremely smart and results focused. He knows our products inside and out. The only reason he left in the first place was to get more money. He had been promised that opportunity here, but couldn't get a guarantee on when or how much. So he bolted. I would have too. Now he's back, and you're going to have to pay him. He has my vote, and if he gets in the door, I could see him sitting in any of your chairs in 3-4 years."

Quality Manager: "He has my vote. I was disappointed when he left. He was the first person to embrace our statistical process control software and apply it to make improvements. He did it without being asked and taught himself. We have people here now that still don't know how to use it.

Site Manager "I never really got to see his work, he left shortly after I arrived here. I've heard nothing but good things, but I never saw anything personally that wow'd me, but like I said, we weren't exposed to each other very much before he left.

Site HR Manager "I want to see some humility from him during the interview process."

The last one from the HR manager really baffled me. Humility? They came to me. I'm not coming in with my hat in my hand begging for a job to get off the streets. I'm exploring a potential opportunity for advancement at a company I'm familiar with. If we can't come to an agreement, no harm no foul. But humility? I'm an humble person by nature, but I'm not sure what he's asking for there. That guy is kind of a jerk anyway. He has a holier than thou attitude that I've always just ignored.

I asked the guys that called me if the HR manager knew or remembered that I left on my own fruition? They said yes, and they spoke up for me, saying that I left on good terms with everyone, and that the only reason I left was for advancement.

Interview is Wed. We shall see.

Good luck. It sounds like by just being yourself you should make the HR Manager happy. No offense to those on the board who work in HR, but at this stage in the process, an HR manager should not have much influence as to whether you get hired, though it is obviously ideal to have everyone involved pulling for you. It sounds like you are well prepared, interviewing from a position of strength, and ready to wow them.

[YmoBeThere]

No offense to those on the board who work in HR, but at this stage in the process, an HR manager should not have much influence as to whether you get hired

X2

You can’t please everyone. HR isn’t responsible for any of the metics you will actually influence in your new role.

[Reilly]

... That guy is kind of a jerk anyway. He has a holier than thou attitude ...

Sounds like a cat person.

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

Site HR Manager "I want to see some humility from him during the interview process."

Sounds pretty snarky. Looks like HR wants you to talk about what a huge mistake you made by leaving. Ego trip maybe, especially given that it sounds like you are advancing much more quickly than if you never left.

So knowing that, you can play along a few different ways, I guess. You could say "gee, I miss this company and wish I never left." You could try to explain exactly why you left the job in the first place, and why you are coming back.

Honestly, HR sounds kinda like a jerk. Luckily, most jobs I have had interact with HR quite infrequently.

Regardless, you are at an advantage with these insights. Good luck!

[BandAlum83]

Well....wasn't your interview(s) yesterday?

How did it go?

[left_hook_lacey]

Well...wasn't your interview(s) yesterday?

How did it go?

Yeah, sorry, been swamped. It went well, i.think. HR guy threw a backhanded insult at me, about trying to come back so soon, but I think I handled it well. My interview with the site manager went best of all I think. We went over the scheduled interview time and talked about way more that your normal run of the mill interview type questions. I think I surprised him, in a good way, with some of the questions I had for him. I'm 99.999999% sure I'll get an offer, but not sure it will be what I've asked for. If not, no harm no foul. At worst, I got some more interview practice.

[Jeffrey]

I'm 99.999999% sure I'll get an offer, but not sure it will be what I've asked for. If not, no harm no foul. At worst, I got some more interview practice.

How did you already have a 15% salary increase offer, at least 10 days ago, before the interview?

http://forums.dukebasketballreport.com/forums/showthread.php?40905-Professional-Advice&p=1021280#post1021280

[left_hook_lacey]

How did you already have a 15% salary increase offer, at least 10 days ago, before the interview?

http://forums.dukebasketballreport.com/forums/showthread.php?40905-Professional-Advice&p=1021280#post1021280

Because I discussed it with the department manager that is trying to get me back. He asked what it would take for me to leave, I told him and he discussed it with his boss and said that number wouldn't be a problem. That number is 15% more than what I'm making now.

[BandAlum83]

Because I discussed it with the department manager that is trying to get me back. He asked what it would take for me to leave, I told him and he discussed it with his boss and said that number wouldn't be a problem. That number is 15% more than what I'm making now.

Glad it went well.

Hurry up and wait? No offer yet?