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pfrduke
12-04-2017, 12:54 AM
The ACC's dominance in the ACC/B1G challenge likely guarantees a winning record against other major conferences for the season. It was nice to lay down the law on our neighbors to the (old) northwest. The weekend was less stellar. Some great games this week, with more chances for major out-of-conference victories. And then a taste of conference play on the weekend!

Monday
[41]Florida State (+9) at [8]Florida (9:00, ESPN2)

Tuesday
[4]Virginia (+1) at [14]West Virginia (7:00, ESPNU)
[15]Miami (-23) hosts [244]Boston University (7:00, ACCNE)
[16]Notre Dame (-17) hosts [128]Ball State (7:00, ACCNE)
[146]Pittsburgh (-12) hosts [298]Mount St. Mary's (7:00, ACCNE)
[73]Wake Forest (-7) at [237]Charlotte (7:00)
[6]Duke (-24) hosts [194]St. Francis (PA) (9:00, ESPNU)
[58]Syracuse (-3) vs. [86]Connecticut in Madison Square Garden (9:00, ESPN)

Wednesday
[35]Virginia Tech (-16) hosts [175]Radford (6:00, ACCNE)
[9]North Carolina (-28) hosts [278]Western Carolina (7:00, ACCNE)
[25]Louisville (-23) hosts [276]Siena (7:00, ESPN2)
[41]Florida State (-21) hosts [270]Loyola (Md.) (7:00, ACCNE)
[80]Georgia Tech (-4) at [217]Wofford (7:00, ESPN3)

Thursday is dark

Friday
[73]Wake Forest (-9) hosts [156]Army (7:00, ACCNE)

Saturday
[97]Boston College (+10) hosts [6]Duke (12:00, ESPN)
[25]Louisville (-12) hosts [89]Indiana (2:00, ESPN)
[77]NC State (-15) hosts [263]UMKC (2:00, ACCNE)
[58]Syracuse (-13) hosts [177]Colgate (2:00, ACCNE)
[32]Clemson (-18) hosts [233]Samford (3:00, ACCNE)
[16]Notre Dame (-13) at [226]Delaware (7:00, CBSSN)
[146]Pittsburgh (+12) hosts [14]West Virginia (8:00, ESPN2)

Sunday
[41]Florida State (-12) vs. [135]Tulane in Tampa (12:00, ESPNU)
[35]Virginia Tech (-29) hosts [340]Maryland-Eastern Shore (3:00, ACCNE)

ACC Non-Conference Record: 95-23*
ACC v. Power 6: 22-13
America East: 2-0
American Athletic: 2-2
Atlantic 10: 10-1
Atlantic Sun: 2-0
Big East: 1-2
Big 12: 1-3
Big Sky: 1-1
Big South: 5-1
Big Ten: 12-5
Big West: 1-0
Colonial: 2-0
Horizon: 2-0
Ivy: 2-0
MAAC: 1-0
MAC: 3-0
MEAC: 5-0
MVC: 1-2
MWC: 1-0
NEC: 7-0
OVC: 2-0
Pac 12: 3-1
Patriot: 5-1
SEC: 5-2
Southern: 7-0
Southland: 1-0
Summit: 2-0
Sun Belt: 1-1
SWAC: 3-1
WAC: 3-0
WCC: 1-0
Non-D1: 1-0

*for comparison purposes, the Big 12 has 11 losses, the Big East has 16, the SEC has 23, the Pac-12 has 28, and the Big Ten has 30 (non-conference).

W&LHoo
12-04-2017, 09:59 AM
I assume Duke rolls this week.

I'm VERY curious about how Virginia fares over in Morgantown. The Hoos' defense simply isn't where it should be - particularly outside of the starting five - and their press has given better Virginia teams fits (and losses), though this may be the game Jay Huff's 85 inch frame becomes a serious offensive weapon.

Wahoo2000
12-04-2017, 02:23 PM
I assume Duke rolls this week.

I'm VERY curious about how Virginia fares over in Morgantown. The Hoos' defense simply isn't where it should be - particularly outside of the starting five - and their press has given better Virginia teams fits (and losses), though this may be the game Jay Huff's 85 inch frame becomes a serious offensive weapon.

I'd argue we're better this year than last year, and that's our only loss to them under Huggins. I'd also argue that they're worse than they were last year. Still, homecourt means a ton, and this is probably a pick'em or +1/-1 either way.

On another note:
I'm totally interested in the FSU/UF game tonight. Florida is at home and has looked pretty dominant so far this year - definitely like a top 5/10 team. I sincerely doubt FSU can hang with them, but rivalry games are weird. If FSU can pull the shocking upset, that's another GREAT win for the ACC. I know Duke has already beaten Florida, but I think the league gets a lot more credit for big wins when it's a team besides Duke/UNC doing the winning.

Wahoo2000
12-04-2017, 11:18 PM
Go Noles. Awesome win for the league from a metrics and eyeball standpoint.

OZ
12-04-2017, 11:33 PM
I'd argue we're better this year than last year, and that's our only loss to them under Huggins. I'd also argue that they're worse than they were last year. Still, homecourt means a ton, and this is probably a pick'em or +1/-1 either way.

On another note:
I'm totally interested in the FSU/UF game tonight. Florida is at home and has looked pretty dominant so far this year - definitely like a top 5/10 team. I sincerely doubt FSU can hang with them, but rivalry games are weird. If FSU can pull the shocking upset, that's another GREAT win for the ACC. I know Duke has already beaten Florida, but I think the league gets a lot more credit for big wins when it's a team besides Duke/UNC doing the winning.




FSU beat No. 5 Florida 83-66. A 17 point win in Gainesville deserves a lot of CREDIT.

Olympic Fan
12-05-2017, 12:16 AM
FSU improves to 7-0 with their win AT Florida.

Looking at their schedule, there is a very good chance the 'Noles come to Durham on Dec. 30 with a 12-0 record. They would clearly be ranked somewhere in the top 25.

The only game they could possibly lose before that one is a meeting with Oklahoma State in Sunrise, Fla.

And I was just checking Miami's schedule too and there is a reasonable chance that the Hurricanes come to Durham on Jan. 15 with a 14-0 record. That's a little more questionable -- they probably have to get past Southern Cal in Hawaii on Christmas Day and they have ACC road games at Pitt, at Georgia Tech and at Clemson. No ACC road game is a lock.

OZ
12-05-2017, 01:33 AM
FSU improves to 7-0 with their win AT Florida.

Looking at their schedule, there is a very good chance the 'Noles come to Durham on Dec. 30 with a 12-0 record. They would clearly be ranked somewhere in the top 25.

The only game they could possibly lose before that one is a meeting with Oklahoma State in Sunrise, Fla.

And I was just checking Miami's schedule too and there is a reasonable chance that the Hurricanes come to Durham on Jan. 15 with a 14-0 record. That's a little more questionable -- they probably have to get past Southern Cal in Hawaii on Christmas Day and they have ACC road games at Pitt, at Georgia Tech and at Clemson. No ACC road game is a lock.

I was thinking that game was in Coral Gables.

uh_no
12-05-2017, 08:41 AM
FSU beat No. 5 Florida 83-66. A 17 point win in Gainesville deserves a lot of CREDIT.

and makes us look pretty bad comparatively.

Troublemaker
12-05-2017, 11:39 AM
and makes us look pretty bad comparatively.

Eh, and Michigan St's been making us look great if we go by that logic. While we're here, just wanted to mention that one of the reasons why our offensive efficiency is so high in kenpom is because Sparty started to dominate on defense from their fourth game on (bludgeoning UNC and Notre Dame along the way), and we happened to play them in their second game and put up 118 OE on them.



I saw the next sentence and understand the "qualifier", and my position remains the same. He said by conference play, which would mean (presumably) by the FLA ST game (we won't count the early BC game). We are what, #46 defense in KenPom? I think that's good enough to win the regular season. How much better does it need to get to trigger the bet moot? Top 40? Top thirty? Heck, #45 is "better". Or should we go by metrics?

Sure it's a fuzzy statement, but I totally disagree with it. We are good enough now, and the team has the lock-down-win-at-the-end mentality that will win us plenty of games. Certainly enough to win the conference. Count on it. Bet on it!

Well, I was thinking more by eye test rather than any specific D ranking. But really, given our lack of regular season ACC titles recently, I think you're way too confident to believe we can finish in first place without improvement on defense. The ACC is really strong again this season.

It's moot, though, because as CDu pointed out, I wrote that I do believe the defense will improve and I did predict that we'll finish in first place based on that. Our stretches of very good defense should become more frequent and longer-lasting once we get into the new year.

Olympic Fan
12-05-2017, 11:44 AM
I was thinking that game was in Coral Gables.

It is -- my bad.

BandAlum83
12-05-2017, 11:45 AM
Eh, and Michigan St's been making us look great if we go by that logic. While we're here, just wanted to mention that one of the reasons why our offensive efficiency is so high in kenpom is because Sparty started to dominate on defense from their fourth game on (bludgeoning UNC and Notre Dame along the way), and we happened to play them in their second game and put up 118 OE on them.



Well, I was thinking more by eye test rather than any specific D ranking. But really, given our lack of regular season ACC titles recently, I think you're way too confident to believe we can finish in first place without improvement on defense. The ACC is really strong again this season.

It's moot, though, because as CDu pointed out, I wrote that I do believe the defense will improve and I did predict that we'll finish in first place based on that. Our stretches of very good defense should become more frequent and longer-lasting once we get into the new year.

Actually, it's not moot until we see if the defense improves between now and the FL ST game (ignoring BC as the start of conference play - it gives a little more time for improvement). The real question is, what do you consider improvement?

Troublemaker
12-05-2017, 11:59 AM
Actually, it's not moot until we see if the defense improves between now and the FL ST game (ignoring BC as the start of conference play - it gives a little more time for improvement). The real question is, what do you consider improvement?

The bulk of the improvement should occur during the ACC season.

If you're really itching for a bet, we can use kenpom. Right now we're #55 on defense. If, by end of the regular season, we're not top-30, we won't finish in first place. Based on your posts, you would disagree strongly with that statement because you think we can finish in first place on the strength of our offense alone.

What's at stake? Pride. Not feeling any pie, beer, etc for this bet. You can call me out that I was wrong if we finish in first place while outside the top 30 on defense. Deal?

BandAlum83
12-05-2017, 01:48 PM
The bulk of the improvement should occur during the ACC season.

If you're really itching for a bet, we can use kenpom. Right now we're #55 on defense. If, by end of the regular season, we're not top-30, we won't finish in first place. Based on your posts, you would disagree strongly with that statement because you think we can finish in first place on the strength of our offense alone.

What's at stake? Pride. Not feeling any pie, beer, etc for this bet. You can call me out that I was wrong if we finish in first place while outside the top 30 on defense. Deal?

Sure. I don't really need to bet, but I do believe we don't need to finish in the top 30 KenPom defense to win the conference. I definitely believe we will improve that much, but not by the start of conference play as you originally stated. That's a long way to go in only 3 games. It will be interesting to see if our one-game defensive efficiency again FL St is greatly improved against a team that spanked FL and put up a bunch of points last night.

I do think we need to get to Top 20 by probably Feb 8th (away at UNC) to go undefeated.

CDu
12-05-2017, 02:16 PM
Sure. I don't really need to bet, but I do believe we don't need to finish in the top 30 KenPom defense to win the conference. I definitely believe we will improve that much, but not by the start of conference play as you originally stated. That's a long way to go in only 3 games. It will be interesting to see if our one-game defensive efficiency again FL St is greatly improved against a team that spanked FL and put up a bunch of points last night.

I do think we need to get to Top 20 by probably Feb 8th (away at UNC) to go undefeated.

I don't mean to speak for Troublemaker, but don't know that he actually stated the bolded part above. His statement was "by conference play." That could be interpreted as "by the beginning of conference play" (as you have interpreted) or "by the end of conference play". Your interpretation might or might not be correct. From the reading of Troublemaker's posts, my suspicion is that you misinterpreted what he was saying. I, of course, could be wrong too.

Troublemaker
12-05-2017, 02:17 PM
Sure. I don't really need to bet, but I do believe we don't need to finish in the top 30 KenPom defense to win the conference. I definitely believe we will improve that much, but not by the start of conference play as you originally stated. That's a long way to go in only 3 games. It will be interesting to see if our one-game defensive efficiency again FL St is greatly improved against a team that spanked FL and put up a bunch of points last night.

I do think we need to get to Top 20 by probably Feb 8th (away at UNC) to go undefeated.

Well, I do feel like a random post of mine was over-parsed here. But that's going to happen every now and then on DBR :-)

But yes, I did mean that our defense would have to continue to improve through the ACC season. I wasn't trying to make the month of December the end-all and be-all.

Edit: CDu beat me to it.

Edit2: Regardless of what I wrote, I'm still surprised that anyone thinks Duke can finish in first place on the strength of only our offense. That's not been the recent history of our regular season performances.

BandAlum83
12-05-2017, 02:19 PM
I don't mean to speak for Troublemaker, but don't know that he actually stated the bolded part above. His statement was "by conference play." That could be interpreted as "by the beginning of conference play" (as you have interpreted) or "by the end of conference play". Your interpretation might or might not be correct. From the reading of Troublemaker's posts, my suspicion is that you misinterpreted what he was saying. I, of course, could be wrong too.

Lol. How many are a couple, a few, some and a bunch?

BandAlum83
12-05-2017, 02:21 PM
Well, I do feel like a random post of mine was over-parsed here. But that's going to happen every now and then on DBR :-)

But yes, I did mean that our defense would have to continue to improve through the ACC season. I wasn't trying to make the month of December the end-all and be-all.

Edit: CDu beat me to it.

It has been parsed, and may have been random, but I took it as a rather strong, definitive statement.

PackMan97
12-05-2017, 04:28 PM
It's officially official. The cheaters got away with it.

http://www.newsobserver.com/news/local/education/article188179439.html

The Cheaters accreditor has given them a thumbs up. They are not troubled in the least that Carolina admitted academic fraud to them and then backtracked and claimed no fraud when the NCAA came calling. There are no adults in charge. I guess that is kinda obvious when players get in trouble for going to class, athletes might get an XBox for playing in a bowl game while the coaches get six and seven figure bonuses, athletes aren't allowed to transfer without sitting while coachings can leave right away for $7.5 million/year.

Oh well. It was fun while it lasted.

MChambers
12-05-2017, 09:06 PM
ND loses at home to Ball State, UVA loses to WV, Pitt is in overtime at home against Mount St. Mary’s? Miami and Wake have won.

PackMan97
12-05-2017, 09:25 PM
ND loses at home to Ball State, UVA loses to WV, Pitt is in overtime at home against Mount St. Mary’s? Miami and Wake have won.

Pitt pulls out the W against Mt. St. Mary's...they are now over .500 on the season. Let's all applaud.

With Wake ripping off four wins in a row, that now puts all ACC teams over .500...though with a loss to Wofford tomorrow, GT could slip down to 4-4 so let's not celebrate too quickly.

In other news, Roy feels he's been treated unfairly by the NCAA (https://www.cbssports.com/college-basketball/news/big-name-coaches-open-up-about-college-basketballs-problems-and-their-ideas-to-fix-them/) and that any coach who intentionally cheats should be banned for life.

BTW - Is this the appropriate place to put links about cheaters? I figure an article about an ACC team or their coach pops up, the "This Week" is the correct place to talk about it. Next week is a new news cycle.

devildeac
12-05-2017, 10:04 PM
Pitt pulls out the W against Mt. St. Mary's...they are now over .500 on the season. Let's all applaud.

With Wake ripping off four wins in a row, that now puts all ACC teams over .500...though with a loss to Wofford tomorrow, GT could slip down to 4-4 so let's not celebrate too quickly.

In other news, Roy feels he's been treated unfairly by the NCAA (https://www.cbssports.com/college-basketball/news/big-name-coaches-open-up-about-college-basketballs-problems-and-their-ideas-to-fix-them/) and that any coach who intentionally cheats should be banned for life.

BTW - Is this the appropriate place to put links about cheaters? I figure an article about an ACC team or their coach pops up, the "This Week" is the correct place to talk about it. Next week is a new news cycle.

Cry me a 9F'ing river, roy. You and your gang of thieves (and liars) cheated for 23 years and avoided punishment. Pathetic.

TheOldBattleship
12-05-2017, 10:07 PM
BTW - Is this the appropriate place to put links about cheaters? I figure an article about an ACC team or their coach pops up, the "This Week" is the correct place to talk about it. Next week is a new news cycle.

Only slightly related question: in addition to talking about Roy being the least self-aware coach in basketball, can we also hijack this thread to talk about Miami freshman Lonnie Walker's hair? His hair-game was strong even back in high school, but he's really taken it to a whole new level recently. There's just a lot going on there. (Also, he looked really, really tough in the bit of that game I saw today. He hasn't done a ton yet this year (hasn't had to, honestly), but if he blossoms into a good player this year, and especially if he can shoot well from the perimeter, Miami is gonna be an absolute bear down the stretch.)

PackMan97
12-05-2017, 10:10 PM
I assume if his hair is a thing in the ACC this week, it's good for a "This Week in the ACC" thread but you have to drag up a picture for us.

TheOldBattleship
12-05-2017, 10:15 PM
I assume if his hair is a thing in the ACC this week, it's good for a "This Week in the ACC" thread but you have to drag up a picture for us.

Here's all I could screengrab (due to the quality, this probably will tell you more about the age of my laptop than about Lonnie's hair, unfortunately). I'd bet he'll crop up a bunch in the ESPN highlights for that game, though, and you'd really get a better sense of the full scope of his hair-game that way than you could even from a *good still image.

7890

BandAlum83
12-06-2017, 10:32 AM
Here's all I could screengrab (due to the quality, this probably will tell you more about the age of my laptop than about Lonnie's hair, unfortunately). I'd bet he'll crop up a bunch in the ESPN highlights for that game, though, and you'd really get a better sense of the full scope of his hair-game that way than you could even from a *good still image.

7890

Meh....

MBIII is definitely 1st team All ACC hair team!

Troublemaker
12-06-2017, 11:05 AM
What was up with WVU fans booing Kyle Guy last night every time he touched the ball?

Maybe Guy is the heir apparent to Grayson, not Alex O'Connell?

MChambers
12-06-2017, 11:37 AM
What was up with WVU fans booing Kyle Guy last night every time he touched the ball?

Maybe Guy is the heir apparent to Grayson, not Alex O'Connell?
Maybe they miss the manbun?

JasonEvans
12-06-2017, 01:03 PM
Maybe they miss the manbun?

Virginia's hair last year was unbeatable!!

http://www.c-ville.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/03/GuyPerrantes_MattRiley-660x335-1489518094.jpg

Olympic Fan
12-06-2017, 01:13 PM
Sorry to see Virginia and Notre Dame go down.

With Virginia's loss and Texas Tech losing at Arizona, we're down to just 10 unbeaten in college basketball (three of them in the ACC).

Eight are legitimate to some degree, but two unbeatens are phony creations of a bad schedule.

-- Mississippi State is 7-0, but just No. 65 in Pomeroy. They have not beaten a top 100 team and have not played on the road yet.

-- Georgetown is 6-0 and has not played a top 200 team yet, although they did beat No. 203 Richmond on the road. They are No. 78 in Pomeroy.

Ewing's soft schedule -- remember, he pulled out of the PK80 -- reminds me of his mentor, John Thompson (the father, not the son). He always ducked strong non-conference opponents when he could. In fact, he's one of the major reasons (Boeheim another) that the old ACC-Big East Challenge was killed. Thompson didn't like playing any tough opponents when he could avoid it.

Wahoo2000
12-06-2017, 02:33 PM
What was up with WVU fans booing Kyle Guy last night every time he touched the ball?

Maybe Guy is the heir apparent to Grayson, not Alex O'Connell?

I think they were just trying to get into his head, which seemed to partly work in the 1st half when he went 0fer. He did shake free for 18 points in the second half though.

We'll have to win a TON of games for him to catch even a 10th of the hate that "DukeWhiteGuard" gets.

Dr. Rosenrosen
12-06-2017, 02:48 PM
Cry me a 9F'ing river, roy. You and your gang of thieves (and liars) cheated for 23 years and avoided punishment. Pathetic.
He really is good about making it all about himself. At least he's consistent.

PackMan97
12-06-2017, 02:58 PM
He really is good about making it all about himself. At least he's consistent.

Anyone remember that gem of his from 2010 after losing to Duke?


“Massage therapist told me, she said, ‘You know, coach, what happened in Haiti is a catastrophe. What you’re having is a disappointment.’ I told her that depends on what chair she was sitting in. Because it does feel like a catastrophe to me, because it is my life.”

The estimated death toll in Haiti was estimated to be anywhere from 100,000-300,000.

If he felt that bad after losing to Duke once, I wonder how he felt about the 82-50 drubbing a month later. Ahh....good times. Good times.

wobatus
12-06-2017, 05:39 PM
Sorry to see Virginia and Notre Dame go down.

With Virginia's loss and Texas Tech losing at Arizona, we're down to just 10 unbeaten in college basketball (three of them in the ACC).

Eight are legitimate to some degree, but two unbeatens are phony creations of a bad schedule.

-- Mississippi State is 7-0, but just No. 65 in Pomeroy. They have not beaten a top 100 team and have not played on the road yet.

-- Georgetown is 6-0 and has not played a top 200 team yet, although they did beat No. 203 Richmond on the road. They are No. 78 in Pomeroy.

Ewing's soft schedule -- remember, he pulled out of the PK80 -- reminds me of his mentor, John Thompson (the father, not the son). He always ducked strong non-conference opponents when he could. In fact, he's one of the major reasons (Boeheim another) that the old ACC-Big East Challenge was killed. Thompson didn't like playing any tough opponents when he could avoid it.

I can't blame Ewing for going easy at first. First year coach, his team coming off 2 losing seasons, and on top of that he lost their 2 leading scorers in Rodney Pryor and L.J. Peak. Then again..., oh my just checked Kenpom SOS. 351? OK, he my need to challenge them a tad more than that. Wait until they get a load of Syracuse's 2-3 zone on 12/16. G'Twon has already played 2 MEAC teams and get 2 more before that game. Should be a rude awakening, but who knows? Still a rivalry game. Boeheim seems to want to go back to the old Big East with UConn and now G'Town on the sked.

Rich
12-06-2017, 07:22 PM
I can't blame Ewing for going easy at first. First year coach, his team coming off 2 losing seasons, and on top of that he lost their 2 leading scorers in Rodney Pryor and L.J. Peak. Then again..., oh my just checked Kenpom SOS. 351? OK, he my need to challenge them a tad more than that. Wait until they get a load of Syracuse's 2-3 zone on 12/16. G'Twon has already played 2 MEAC teams and get 2 more before that game. Should be a rude awakening, but who knows? Still a rivalry game. Boeheim seems to want to go back to the old Big East with UConn and now G'Town on the sked.

I was invited to last night's 'Cuse-UConn Jimmy V game at MSG last night and the reason they schedule these games is because they draw. The older fans love the memories and the old rivalries. With 'Nova fans also in the building it was an old Big East love fest. Living in the Northeast, I love watching any combination of Orange, 'Nova, G'Town, UConn, and St. John's playing each other. Sure, that league turned into a scrum fest in the late 80's, but in its glory days in the early '80's you could argue that was the center of the college basketball universe.

MChambers
12-06-2017, 07:49 PM
I can't blame Ewing for going easy at first. First year coach, his team coming off 2 losing seasons, and on top of that he lost their 2 leading scorers in Rodney Pryor and L.J. Peak. Then again..., oh my just checked Kenpom SOS. 351? OK, he my need to challenge them a tad more than that. Wait until they get a load of Syracuse's 2-3 zone on 12/16. G'Twon has already played 2 MEAC teams and get 2 more before that game. Should be a rude awakening, but who knows? Still a rivalry game. Boeheim seems to want to go back to the old Big East with UConn and now G'Town on the sked.
351 SOS? That’s awesome, in a pathetic sort of way.

JasonEvans
12-06-2017, 08:14 PM
-- Georgetown is 6-0 and has not played a top 200 team yet

That's probably not as easy as you might think. I mean, unless you play nothing but MEAC (highest rated team is #288 Morgan St) and SWAC (best is #232 Texas Southern) teams, you are bound to at least stumble across a top 200 team at some point. St. Francis is the highest rated team in the Northeast Conference at #201, so that conference counts too, but they are likely to hit the top 200 at some point.

ipatent
12-06-2017, 11:03 PM
Wofford beats Georgia Tech.

PackMan97
12-06-2017, 11:16 PM
...though with a loss to Wofford tomorrow, GT could slip down to 4-4

*sigh*

wobatus
12-07-2017, 10:38 AM
I was invited to last night's 'Cuse-UConn Jimmy V game at MSG last night and the reason they schedule these games is because they draw. The older fans love the memories and the old rivalries. With 'Nova fans also in the building it was an old Big East love fest. Living in the Northeast, I love watching any combination of Orange, 'Nova, G'Town, UConn, and St. John's playing each other. Sure, that league turned into a scrum fest in the late 80's, but in its glory days in the early '80's you could argue that was the center of the college basketball universe.

Yeah, I'm up here in NYC, too. I'm a long-time ACC fan, but I remember when the Big East was formed and the rivalries. It took some good regional programs and made them into powerhouses.

Olympic Fan
12-07-2017, 04:01 PM
Sure, that league turned into a scrum fest in the late 80's, but in its glory days in the early '80's you could argue that was the center of the college basketball universe.

The Big East had a great NCAA run in 1985, when they put three teams in the Final Four.

But other than that one season, the Big East was always behind the ACC (and often the Big Ten) in NCAA performance. Arguing that the Big East was the best conference in the mid-80s because of 1985 was like arguing that the ACC is the best football conference in this decade because the ACC was clearly the best conference in 2016.

The center of the basketball universe in the early, middle and late 1980s was Tobacco Road.

The Big East only became the nation's best league for a short time after the ACC's first major expansion, when the ACC added three football schools, when the Big East responded by adding basketball schools such as Syracuse and Marquette. That lasted a little less than a decade until the ACC destroyed the old Big East with its next expansion.

JasonEvans
12-07-2017, 04:13 PM
The Big East had a great NCAA run in 1985, when they put three teams in the Final Four.

But other than that one season, the Big East was always behind the ACC (and often the Big Ten) in NCAA performance. Arguing that the Big East was the best conference in the mid-80s because of 1985 was like arguing that the ACC is the best football conference in this decade because the ACC was clearly the best conference in 2016.

The center of the basketball universe in the early, middle and late 1980s was Tobacco Road.

The Big East only became the nation's best league for a short time after the ACC's first major expansion, when the ACC added three football schools, when the Big East responded by adding basketball schools such as Syracuse and Marquette. That lasted a little less than a decade until the ACC destroyed the old Big East with its next expansion.

There was a time in the mid-80s where Duke, UNC, and Ga Tech were ranked #1, #2, and #3 in the polls... then they played each other and one of them moved all the way down to like #4 or #5.

Olympic Fan
12-07-2017, 04:18 PM
There was a time in the mid-80s where Duke, UNC, and Ga Tech were ranked #1, #2, and #3 in the polls... then they played each other and one of them moved all the way down to like #4 or #5.

That was 1985-86.

Georgia Tech started No. 1 ... UNC was No. 1 most of the season ... and Duke finished No. 1 in the polls. One of the three was No. 1 every week of the season.

But technically, they were never No. 1-2-3 the same week.

JasonEvans
12-07-2017, 09:21 PM
That was 1985-86.

Georgia Tech started No. 1 ... UNC was No. 1 most of the season ... and Duke finished No. 1 in the polls. One of the three was No. 1 every week of the season.

But technically, they were never No. 1-2-3 the same week.

Are you sure? I swear I thought it happened one week. I know 2 of them were #1 and #2 several times.

Duke79UNLV77
12-07-2017, 09:46 PM
Are you sure? I swear I thought it happened one week. I know 2 of them were #1 and #2 several times.

I believe there was a week when one was #1 and the other two were tied for #2, as I recall saying that the ACC had 3 of the top 2 teams in the country. Either that, or one was #2 in one poll and another was #2 in the other poll.

Olympic Fan
12-07-2017, 10:27 PM
Are you sure? I swear I thought it happened one week. I know 2 of them were #1 and #2 several times.

Nope, I've got the weekly rankings in front of me.

Duke was 6 in preseason ... Ga Tech was 1, UNC was 2.

By the time Duke beat St. Johns and Kansas to win the preseason NIT, Duke climbed to No. 3 on Dec. 3 ... but Georgia Tech had dropped to No. 5 (UNC was No. 1).

After beating Duke in late January, Georgia Tech got back to No. 3 and a week later was No. 2 -- but Duke had dropped to 5 and 4 after losing back-to-back games to UNC and Georgia Tech.

Georgia Tech was 1-2 (Duke was 6-6)the first two weeks of the poll and 3-2 on Jan. 28 and Feb. 4 (when Duke was 5-4). But that's the only time they were ranked that high (although the Jackets were top 7 all year and top 5 most of the year.

You are right that two of the three were 1 and 2 in six of the 17 weeks. Duke spent the entire year between No. 1 and No. 6. UNC spent almost the entire year at 1 or 2 until the very end, when they slumped to 3,4 and 8 in the last three weeks. Georgia Tech never got lower than No. 7 all season.

sagegrouse
12-08-2017, 07:24 AM
I believe there was a week when one was #1 and the other two were tied for #2, as I recall saying that the ACC had 3 of the top 2 teams in the country. Either that, or one was #2 in one poll and another was #2 in the other poll.

Checking the AP poll for 1985-86 (https://www.sports-reference.com/cbb/seasons/1986.html#all_polls), there were two weeks when the aforementioned ACC teams were #1, #2, and #4. There were also weeks at 1-3-4 and a 1-2-5.

wobatus
12-08-2017, 05:31 PM
The Big East had a great NCAA run in 1985, when they put three teams in the Final Four.

But other than that one season, the Big East was always behind the ACC (and often the Big Ten) in NCAA performance. Arguing that the Big East was the best conference in the mid-80s because of 1985 was like arguing that the ACC is the best football conference in this decade because the ACC was clearly the best conference in 2016.

The center of the basketball universe in the early, middle and late 1980s was Tobacco Road.

The Big East only became the nation's best league for a short time after the ACC's first major expansion, when the ACC added three football schools, when the Big East responded by adding basketball schools such as Syracuse and Marquette. That lasted a little less than a decade until the ACC destroyed the old Big East with its next expansion.

1984 National Champs Georgetown
1985 3 teams in Final 4, G'Town, St. John's, 'Nova. National Champs, 'Nova
1986 No FF. St. John's was damn good. ACC was best conference.
1987. Two teams in FF, Syracuse and Providence. Syracuse losses in Final.
1988 6 teams in tourney, no FF.
1989 Seton hall loses in Finals.

ACC put 6 teams in in 1986, '87 and '89.

ACC 4 Final 4s, 3 from Duke, 1 from Virginia. Big East had 2 titles, 7 Final 4s from 7 different teams. ACC was deeper generally but Big East had more hardware from more different teams.

Big Ten had 2 titles.
Big 8 had 1, and 2 in the Finals in '88.
And the Metro Conference had 1. :)

Olympic Fan
12-08-2017, 07:37 PM
1984 National Champs Georgetown
1985 3 teams in Final 4, G'Town, St. John's, 'Nova. National Champs, 'Nova
1986 No FF. St. John's was damn good. ACC was best conference.
1987. Two teams in FF, Syracuse and Providence. Syracuse losses in Final.
1988 6 teams in tourney, no FF.
1989 Seton hall loses in Finals.

ACC put 6 teams in in 1986, '87 and '89.

ACC 4 Final 4s, 3 from Duke, 1 from Virginia. Big East had 2 titles, 7 Final 4s from 7 different teams. ACC was deeper generally but Big East had more hardware from more different teams.

Big Ten had 2 titles.
Big 8 had 1, and 2 in the Finals in '88.
And the Metro Conference had 1. :)

Not sure where you are getting your numbers -- or what you are measuring, but since we've been talking about the ACC's superiority in the 1980s:

-- The Big Ten actually won three titles (Indiana 1981; Indiana 1987; Michigan 1989) -- the ACC and Big East each won two

-- The ACC put eight teams in the Final Four. The Big East also managed eight FF teams.

-- The ACC produced 30 Sweet 16 teams in the decade ... the Big East was a distant second with 22.

-- The ACC was 90-48 in NCAA play in the decade -- the most wins and the best winning percentage of any conference. The Big East won 83 games in the decade.

-- The ACC three times put 75 percent of the conference in the field -- no other conference has ever matched that. The ACC had four seasons with four Sweet 16 teams -- that was half the league in that era (the Big East did it once).

The Big East was good in the 1980s, but the ACC was better.

DukieTiger
12-09-2017, 01:31 AM
Not sure where you are getting your numbers -- or what you are measuring, but since we've been talking about the ACC's superiority in the 1980s:

-- The Big Ten actually won three titles (Indiana 1981; Indiana 1987; Michigan 1989) -- the ACC and Big East each won two

-- The ACC put eight teams in the Final Four. The Big East also managed eight FF teams.

-- The ACC produced 30 Sweet 16 teams in the decade ... the Big East was a distant second with 22.

-- The ACC was 90-48 in NCAA play in the decade -- the most wins and the best winning percentage of any conference. The Big East won 83 games in the decade.

-- The ACC three times put 75 percent of the conference in the field -- no other conference has ever matched that. The ACC had four seasons with four Sweet 16 teams -- that was half the league in that era (the Big East did it once).

The Big East was good in the 1980s, but the ACC was better.

Believe the OP was following the mid-1980s parameters mentioned by you and others upstream. Which arbitrarily leaves out a couple of champions from the ACC, of course. But I think the intent was to highlight the conference’s run over a particular span of years. Your numbers zoom out to the entire decade, so I think we’re having two different discussions here.

wobatus
12-11-2017, 10:11 AM
Believe the OP was following the mid-1980s parameters mentioned by you and others upstream. Which arbitrarily leaves out a couple of champions from the ACC, of course. But I think the intent was to highlight the conference’s run over a particular span of years. Your numbers zoom out to the entire decade, so I think we’re having two different discussions here.

Yes, thanks, I was talking '84-'89.

Personally I'm an ACC fan, and that run misses '81 finals (and 2 FFs), '82 title and '83 title for ACC teams. The Big East was very strong in the mid-80s.

Then you have 2011, when it places 11 teams in the NCAAs and its 9th place team wins the conference tournament and then the NCAAs. But I still prefer the '70s ACC where the teams played each other so many times, getting into the NCAAs took some doing, and it was a smaller conference. You might face each other 4 times with the Big 4 Tournament early in the year, two regular season games, then the conference tournament. Or even in the NIT.

Olympic Fan
12-11-2017, 11:59 AM
Yes, thanks, I was talking '84-'89.

Personally I'm an ACC fan, and that run misses '81 finals (and 2 FFs), '82 title and '83 title for ACC teams. The Big East was very strong in the mid-80s.

Then you have 2011, when it places 11 teams in the NCAAs and its 9th place team wins the conference tournament and then the NCAAs. But I still prefer the '70s ACC where the teams played each other so many times, getting into the NCAAs took some doing, and it was a smaller conference. You might face each other 4 times with the Big 4 Tournament early in the year, two regular season games, then the conference tournament. Or even in the NIT.

I'm not going to go back and count every year to get the '84-'89 numbers, but I can tell you that in that six-year span -- specifically picked because that was when the Big East was supposedly at its best -- the ACC had a better NCAA record and produced 20 Sweet 16 teams, compared to 13 for the Big East. The ACC put four in the Sweet 16 four times in that span -- the Big East once.

As for 2011, it's a lot like 2017 for the ACC -- not a great NCAA year for either league. In both cases, the league produced the national champ and got the most bids in its history ... but other than the champ, no other team in the 2011 Big East or the 2017 ACC got out of the first weekend.

wobatus
12-11-2017, 03:57 PM
I'm not going to go back and count every year to get the '84-'89 numbers, but I can tell you that in that six-year span -- specifically picked because that was when the Big East was supposedly at its best -- the ACC had a better NCAA record and produced 20 Sweet 16 teams, compared to 13 for the Big East. The ACC put four in the Sweet 16 four times in that span -- the Big East once.

As for 2011, it's a lot like 2017 for the ACC -- not a great NCAA year for either league. In both cases, the league produced the national champ and got the most bids in its history ... but other than the champ, no other team in the 2011 Big East or the 2017 ACC got out of the first weekend.


Ah, didn't know that about the Sweet 16s back then.

Yeah, last year the ACC kinda flamed out. 2016 the league did much better. 2015 was pretty good too but Izzo kinda spoiled the ACC's run a little bit beating UVa and 'Ville, but 5 Sweet 16s, 3 Elite 8s and a title. Not bad. Notre Dame really shoulda beat Kentucky.

Olympic Fan
12-11-2017, 04:16 PM
Ah, didn't know that about the Sweet 16s back then.

Yeah, last year the ACC kinda flamed out. 2016 the league did much better. 2015 was pretty good too but Izzo kinda spoiled the ACC's run a little bit beating UVa and 'Ville, but 5 Sweet 16s, 3 Elite 8s and a title. Not bad. Notre Dame really shoulda beat Kentucky.

Actually, 2016 was the greatest one-season performance by a conference(19 wins).

2015 and 2016 together are the best two-year run of any conference ... it's not close (36 wins)

Even with a disappointing ACC performance in 2017 (just 11 wins), the ACC's three year mark of 47-20 IS 19 WINS MORE THAN ANY OTHER CONFERENCE HAS WON IN A 3-YEAR PERIOD!

wobatus
12-12-2017, 12:27 PM
Actually, 2016 was the greatest one-season performance by a conference(19 wins).

2015 and 2016 together are the best two-year run of any conference ... it's not close (36 wins)

Even with a disappointing ACC performance in 2017 (just 11 wins), the ACC's three year mark of 47-20 IS 19 WINS MORE THAN ANY OTHER CONFERENCE HAS WON IN A 3-YEAR PERIOD!

Nice!

Going back to the post about teams being 1, 2 and 3 or so. In 1972-73 there were a couple of weeks where it was NC State 2, Maryland 3 and UNC 4. Md and UNC flip-flopped once or twice. In '73-'74 they were all 3 in the top 5 for 11 straight weeks and 12 altogether. NC State didn't get to number 1 until late February, and by then it was 1, 5 and 6, then 1, 4 and 5, until UNC fell back late.

Olympic Fan
12-12-2017, 01:22 PM
Nice!

Going back to the post about teams being 1, 2 and 3 or so. In 1972-73 there were a couple of weeks where it was NC State 2, Maryland 3 and UNC 4. Md and UNC flip-flopped once or twice. In '73-'74 they were all 3 in the top 5 for 11 straight weeks and 12 altogether. NC State didn't get to number 1 until late February, and by then it was 1, 5 and 6, then 1, 4 and 5, until UNC fell back late.

I hate to be a spoil-sport, but the first part of that is not true ... the second part (that State, UNC and Maryland spent 11 straight weeks in the top 5) is almost right. I get nine straight weeks until Jan. 28, when Maryland dropped to No. 6. The Terps were No. 7 the next week, then climbed to No. 6, then back to No. 5 and spent the last six weeks at No. 4. UNC started at No. 5 and stayed in the top five for 12 straight weeks until falling to No. 6 on Feb. 19. The Heels bounced back to No. 4 the next week, then dropped to No. 6 and finished 8-10-12 the last three polls.

NC State started at No. 2 and never dropped lower than No. 5 (the two weeks after losing to UCLA in St. Louis). The Pack took over No. 1 when UCLA has a disastrous trip to Oregon in February (losing twice). The Pack climbed to No. 1 on Feb. 19 and stayed there the last six polls.

I get 11 weeks total when all three were top five -- with nine in a row to start the season (counting the preseason poll).

The three teams started the season at 2,4 and 5 and stayed that way five weeks (the last two were after State dropped to No. 5 -- Maryland climbed to No. 2 and UNC to No. 4). On Feb. 26, they were 1-4-5. But there was never a week when they were 2-3-4.

wobatus
12-12-2017, 04:05 PM
I hate to be a spoil-sport, but the first part of that is not true ... the second part (that State, UNC and Maryland spent 11 straight weeks in the top 5) is almost right. I get nine straight weeks until Jan. 28, when Maryland dropped to No. 6. The Terps were No. 7 the next week, then climbed to No. 6, then back to No. 5 and spent the last six weeks at No. 4. UNC started at No. 5 and stayed in the top five for 12 straight weeks until falling to No. 6 on Feb. 19. The Heels bounced back to No. 4 the next week, then dropped to No. 6 and finished 8-10-12 the last three polls.

NC State started at No. 2 and never dropped lower than No. 5 (the two weeks after losing to UCLA in St. Louis). The Pack took over No. 1 when UCLA has a disastrous trip to Oregon in February (losing twice). The Pack climbed to No. 1 on Feb. 19 and stayed there the last six polls.

I get 11 weeks total when all three were top five -- with nine in a row to start the season (counting the preseason poll).

The three teams started the season at 2,4 and 5 and stayed that way five weeks (the last two were after State dropped to No. 5 -- Maryland climbed to No. 2 and UNC to No. 4). On Feb. 26, they were 1-4-5. But there was never a week when they were 2-3-4.

January 16 and January 23rd:

January 16, 2003 it was NC State 2, Maryland 3 and UNC 4. That week Maryland beat Navy, UNC beat Wake at Wake and Duke, and the January 23, 2003 AP poll had it NC State 2, UNC 3, Maryland 4. Then UNC lost 3 of 4 to UVa, NC State and Maryland. They avenged the Maryland loss but never could beat State that year or the next. Some close battles. Bobby Jones at least got an NBA title.

wobatus
12-12-2017, 04:31 PM
January 16 and January 23rd:

January 16, 2003 it was NC State 2, Maryland 3 and UNC 4. That week Maryland beat Navy, UNC beat Wake at Wake and Duke, and the January 23, 2003 AP poll had it NC State 2, UNC 3, Maryland 4. Then UNC lost 3 of 4 to UVa, NC State and Maryland. They avenged the Maryland loss but never could beat State that year or the next. Some close battles. Bobby Jones at least got an NBA title.

Whoops, yeah, January 16, 1973 and January 23, 1973. Not '73-'74 season, the year before, the '72-'73 season.

jv001
12-12-2017, 04:43 PM
January 16 and January 23rd:

January 16, 2003 it was NC State 2, Maryland 3 and UNC 4. That week Maryland beat Navy, UNC beat Wake at Wake and Duke, and the January 23, 2003 AP poll had it NC State 2, UNC 3, Maryland 4. Then UNC lost 3 of 4 to UVa, NC State and Maryland. They avenged the Maryland loss but never could beat State that year or the next. Some close battles. Bobby Jones at least got an NBA title.

Bobby Jones and Walter Davis were two of my favorite non-Duke players. Great players and even nicer guys. Plus, I think they played before the cheating began. We will never know. GoDuke!

Olympic Fan
12-12-2017, 07:31 PM
January 16 and January 23rd:

January 16, 2003 it was NC State 2, Maryland 3 and UNC 4. That week Maryland beat Navy, UNC beat Wake at Wake and Duke, and the January 23, 2003 AP poll had it NC State 2, UNC 3, Maryland 4. Then UNC lost 3 of 4 to UVa, NC State and Maryland. They avenged the Maryland loss but never could beat State that year or the next. Some close battles. Bobby Jones at least got an NBA title.

My apologies -- the 1972-73 didn't click ... I was looking at 1973-74 -- you are indeed right that for two weeks in 1973 the ACC has the No. 2, 3 and 4 ranked teams.

Those two seasons were remarkable in that the ACC had three of the top five teams for a majority of the weeks. It was an unbalanced league then with the three super powers at the top and four patsies at the bottom. No other ACC team cracked the top 20 in those seasons, even for a single week.

Duke and Virginia tied for 4th/5th in 1973 with a 4-8 ACC record. Duke was 12-14 overall .

Virginia was fourth in 1974 at 4-8 ACC (14-12 overall). Duke was dead last at 2-10 (10-16 overall. That was the first of four straight years when Duke finished either last or tied for last in the ACC. In the fifth year, Duke won the ACC played in national championship game. That offers just a little perspective to why the 1978 Duke team has such a special place in the hearts of Duke fans who were there at that time.