Duke Professor Op-Ed: College athletes’ devil’s bargain: play or learn

[Dev11]

An interesting perspective on the state of college athletics from a Duke professor who sounds like he's had enough:

Op-Ed (http://www.newsobserver.com/opinion/op-ed/article187669478.html)


Athletes in my big introductory course this semester have missed almost a hundred classes between them. They are delightful, hard-working kids, but they don’t have time to do much more than pass. You can’t get much from a class missing so many lectures. Athletes do not have time for semester study abroad; writing for the school paper; joining student government. We give our athletes an impoverished imitation of a real college experience so that Duke can win a few more golf tournaments.

[LasVegas]

I was getting ready to post this. I missed tons of classes in college. Tons. I think the majority of college students do.

[richmclean]

Yes they don’t have time for OTHER extracurricular activities.
You’re making your own value judgement as which is more enriching. Others make other judgements.
Both are valid, get over it.

[Atlanta Duke]

Professor Starn has expressed his views and concerns in the past

This from a NYT article following the 2010 national championship

Starn’s concern is that Duke has become so identified with Krzyzewski and his team that the university’s other gifts are in danger of being overshadowed by the basketball brand....

“I worry about students now who see being part of the Duke basketball culture as the main reason for applying or coming to Duke.”...

Starn has gone as far as suggesting publicly that Duke consider downgrading to Division III.

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/04/09/sports/ncaabasketball/09rhoden.html

[dudog84]

Can also blame the expanding conferences. When I was at Duke, lo these many years ago, the ACC stretched in a narrow band from Atlanta to College Park Maryland (with only UVa any distance off the I-85/I-95 corridor) for about 650 miles (540 by plane). Now it's Miami to Boston, 1493 miles (1285 by plane), and stretching west to Louisville.

And the year before I arrived, Clemson was the southern outpost.

The best part was that Duke was smack dab in the middle, a road trip to any Conference contest was doable for students.

I think that hurts the non-basketball/football athletes the most. I'm pretty sure it's been suggested by others, but the class issue could be somewhat fixed by having only football in the 'super'conference, and take all the other sports back to the 8-team conference. Football only plays once a week on the weekend anyway (need to get rid of Tuesday, Thursday, and Friday games).

Far fewer classes would be missed...and this will never happen.

[RCDevil]

I had a class with Orin Starn while I was a student at Duke.

He's a good dude and a smart guy, but I've long disagreed with many of his views on college athletics.

This column is incredibly weak. One of his main arguments is that athletes don't have time to participate in student government, study abroad, or write for the school paper.

The VAST majority of the students weren't in DSG and didn't write for The Chronicle, and DSG is little more than an event-planning body. I've also never been too impressed with The Chronicle, but that's just me. Why is participation in this stuff at all important?

Plenty of students don't study abroad either. Given what my major was, there was no reason for me to.

Funny that Starn mentions that he's worried students are coming to Duke with basketball as a motivating factor. My experience was TOTALLY the opposite in terms of how much the average student seemed to care about basketball, and given the fact we still sometimes have problems filling the entire student section for non-marquee games (which has actually gotten WORSE since I graduated), I think he's completely out of touch with reality on this one.

Oh, and he's also on the record as making some very clueless comments during the lacrosse fiasco.

His whole agenda sounds like your typical insulated, ivory-tower view on the intersection between academics and athletics. Obviously there are issues that Duke and other schools need to tackle, but this comes off as Starn parroting the UNCheat party line of "everyone does it!"

And I'm sure the UNCheat sycophants that see this column will be quick to use it to say "hey look one of your own professors agrees with us!"

I really think this boils down to the fact he really dislikes the idea of big-time college athletics - and that is fine, but he's displayed a pattern of trying to attach that narrative to any news story that he thinks might further his point.

I'm also pretty sure Starn is not a North Carolinian and doesn't understand the fundamental differences in outlook between the Duke and UNCheat fanbases. He seems to think we're laughing at them simply because they're a rival.

[kmspeaks]

I was getting ready to post this. I missed tons of classes in college. Tons. I think the majority of college students do.

I probably missed less class as an athlete than I would have if I had gone to college as a regular student. A 3 mile run and missing games was way more of a motivator for getting my butt out of bed than anything that actually happened in those lectures.

[OZ]

Yes they don’t have time for OTHER extracurricular activities.
You’re making your own value judgement as which is more enriching. Others make other judgements.
Both are valid, get over it.

I would have gladly sacrificed (?) my "extracurricular activities" to have been talented enough to have played a college sport. Also, I have known athletes who attended classes a lot more regularly than I. BTW, one of the best surgeons I know played four years of football at Duke. He was studying while I was goofing off. I'm guessing that most profs could have written similar op-eds about several of their "regular" students.

[weezie]

Guess Prof. Starn doesn't have any discounted faculty tickets that he might want to get rid of?

Just asking...:cool:

[LasVegas]

I probably missed less class as an athlete than I would have if I had gone to college as a regular student. A 3 mile run and missing games was way more of a motivator for getting my butt out of bed than anything that actually happened in those lectures.

I believe that 100%. If I wanted to skip all my Friday classes and start my weekend on Thursday night, I did. No one said a word. No repercussions at all.

[ipatent]

There are obviously trade-offs that come with a school's decision to participate in high level intercollegiate sports. Starn says they are delightful hard working kids, I guess we can take some solace that the Duke student athlete has not become a complete myth as it did down the road.

[OldPhiKap]

Had classes with Tommy Amaker, Billy King, and Marty Nessley. All were better prepared than I was for many classes. Marty particularly.

Just sayin’

[uh_no]

I believe that 100%. If I wanted to skip all my Friday classes and start my weekend on Thursday night, I did. No one said a word. No repercussions at all.

WHAT? you didn't get all that duke has to offer!!!

Send back your degree, mister!

I find it extremely pretentious for a professor to assume what does and does not comprise a full duke experience. I never went abroad or wrote for the paper....does my degree not count? Did I waste my time? I hope not....

[johnb]

His point is well taken in regards to the basketball players. Their travel schedules are extraordinarily disruptive. Travel to Oregon and to Indiana are just the beginning. 9:30 games. Constant ESPN coverage. Intense international scrutiny. I wouldn’t expect them to write for the Chronicle, but I’d imagine that our basketball players can only keep up with classwork if they get very organized help. Does that affect their Duke experience? Of course.

[BigWayne]

I saw the article was written by Orin Starn and closed the page immediately. He has been pontificating on this subject for many years with little or no attachment to reality.

[TruBlu]

I was getting ready to post this. I missed tons of classes in college. Tons. I think the majority of college students do.

Yep. I missed so many classes that they decided my academic scholarship could be used better on someone else. Did not make my parents happy. I, of course, just considered it very rude.

And I managed to do this at a time when ASU was a social black hole. I should have been given credits due to my diligence in being able to find so many extracurricular “projects” that required my attention. At least Uncle Sam appreciated it by upgrading my status from 2S to 1A.

[JohnJ]

There wer a very few classes where it didn’t make a difference whether I attended lectures or not.

Then there were classes like freshman Chemistry with Prof. Bonk. I never missed any of his classes. What a joy...

[BandAlum83]

WHAT? you didn't get all that duke has to offer!!!

Send back your degree, mister!

I find it extremely pretentious for a professor to assume what does and does not comprise a full duke experience. I never went abroad or wrote for the paper...does my degree not count? Did I waste my time? I hope not...

I never let school get in the way of my learning while I was at Duke.

And I will admit I had to show my ID at my Accounting 101 final because the professor didn't know who I was. It was an 8:00 class that I quickly decided I didn't need to attend.

[DukieInKansas]

There wer a very few classes where it didn’t make a difference whether I attended lectures or not.

Then there were classes like freshman Chemistry with Prof. Bonk. I never missed any of his classes. What a joy...

One of my college regrets - not taking Bonkistry.

[MarkD83]

One distinction I would make that is being blurred in this thread;

There is a difference in missing classes because a student makes a choice to miss them and those classes a student misses because "extra-curricular" commitments force a student to miss a class.

I missed my fair share of 8am classes and in some cases my choice lowered my grade a few notches. However, if any university has a mission to educate their students then any extra-curricular activity that forces a student to miss a class needs to be re-evaluted.

The NCAA probably does not care but missed classes due to football or basketball travel certainly flies in the face of the "best interest of the student-athlete". Of course this topic has been beaten to death on this board.

[swood1000]

Prof. Starn doesn’t think that the experience of playing top-flight national sports is worth very much. Of more value to him are semester study abroad; writing for the school paper; joining student government. But didn’t Duke athletes have the opportunity to attend a Division II or III school where they would have had more time for those things? Did they not know the time demands of their sport or is Prof. Starn saying that they should not have been allowed to make that judgment? It sounds like he is convinced that he should be the one deciding these things, not them.

[duke74]

.

And I will admit I had to show my ID at my Accounting 101 final because the professor didn't know who I was. It was an 8:00 class that I quickly decided I didn't need to attend.

As a 38 year veteran of Deloitte (mandatorily retired) and now a full time professor of accountancy at St. John’s, I grieve for what you missed. 😉

[swood1000]

Starn’s concern is that Duke has become so identified with Krzyzewski and his team that the university’s other gifts are in danger of being overshadowed by the basketball brand...

“I worry about students now who see being part of the Duke basketball culture as the main reason for applying or coming to Duke.”...

But reasonable argument can be made that Duke basketball success has had a lot to do with enabling Duke to be much more selective in its admissions and regarded as more elite academically. You can't have your cake and eat it too.


Starn has gone as far as suggesting publicly that Duke consider downgrading to Division III.

But in that case few of the current athletes would apply to Duke, and so this wouldn't be of any academic benefit to them. Instead they would go to some other high profile Division I school, academically elite as well if that is important to them. I assume they would be replaced by athletes who would otherwise have gone to another Division III school, maybe Williams or Amherst. Who benefits here?

[BandAlum83]

But reasonable argument can be made that Duke basketball success has had a lot to do with enabling Duke to be much more selective in its admissions and regarded as more elite academically. You can't have your cake and eat it too.



But in that case few of the current athletes would apply to Duke, and so this wouldn't be of any academic benefit to them. I assume they would be replaced by athletes who would otherwise have gone to another Division III school, maybe Williams or Amherst. Who benefits here?

When applied, duke as a solid top 20 academic institution. It was on about a par with Notre Dame (where I almost went). Today, it is among 7 schools that consistently appear in Top 5 lists. How did it jump over so many schools and leave ND behind? I would posit that basketball and Coach K had a lot to do with it. Notoriety, money, ability to attract top flight academic talent, Faculty recruitment, etc. Like you said, swood: You can't have your cake and eat it too

[CrazyNotCrazie]

As a 38 year veteran of Deloitte (mandatorily retired) and now a full time professor of accountancy at St. John’s, I grieve for what you missed. ��

You will be happy to know that possibly the best professor I had at Duke (in the 90s) was my accounting professor - CJ Skender. He was hilarious, a very nice guy, and made the material both interesting and clear. I think his primary academic appointment was actually at UNCheat so I'm guessing he really enjoyed teaching Duke students who actually cared to learn.

[RPS]

One of his main arguments is that athletes don't have time to participate in student government, study abroad, or write for the school paper.My youngest was a D1 athlete at Berkeley and wrote for The Daily Cal. It is possible.

Travel can be and often is a problem, but not for football players. They left for road games via charter on Friday afternoon and were sometimes back on campus after the game before we had gotten on our flight out. The bigger issue is scheduling classes. Football players at Cal (then) lifted at 6:30am and had to be back to the stadium for practice and related activities at 1pm. Squeezing classes in could be hard, even with scheduling priority.

[cspan37421]

He should have stuck to the argument that they miss too much class, and even then, that's assuming that despite this "on-demand" age one still couldn't time-shift one's viewing of the lecture. You'd still miss some give-and-take with the prof and other classmates, which does have value. So he has a point ... to a point.

But once he started opining on what are and are not worthy ways to spend your time outside of class, he was off the rails. I dare say that a commitment to physical fitness and nutrition, perseverance, teamwork, "competitive intelligence" (film sessions!), executing the gameplan, making adjustments on the fly, are probably at least as character-building as many extracurriculars.

[dudog84]

My youngest was a D1 athlete at Berkeley and wrote for The Daily Cal. It is possible.

Travel can be and often is a problem, but not for football players. They left for road games via charter on Friday afternoon and were sometimes back on campus after the game before we had gotten on our flight out. The bigger issue is scheduling classes. Football players at Cal (then) lifted at 6:30am and had to be back to the stadium for practice and related activities at 1pm. Squeezing classes in could be hard, even with scheduling priority.

Yes. And they've only got 5 or 6 away games per year. Let football keep their superconferences but the other sports should be regional.

(not gonna happen)

[Wander]

But once he started opining on what are and are not worthy ways to spend your time outside of class, he was off the rails.

Yeah, that argument is obviously silly and made the professor's letter hard to take too seriously. Being on an athletic team is an extracurricular activity like being on The Chronicle or whatever, so it's pretty dumb to list that as a minus.

But, there are points that are not to be dismissed, like a lot of Duke fans being a little too smug about the UNC cheating scandal and it being a little over the top how much class these guys have to miss. These points probably need to be conveyed by a different spokesperson without the other nonsense.

[75Crazie]

Yes. And they've only got 5 or 6 away games per year. Let football keep their superconferences but the other sports should be regional.
I disagree with the football part. It is a crime against the intended nature of things that Duke does not play State each and every year in football.

[dudog84]

I disagree with the football part. It is a crime against the intended nature of things that Duke does not play State each and every year in football.

I see your point, but I would gladly sacrifice yearly football with State to get back basketball home-and-home with State. And UVa, Tech, etc.

[English]

Yeah, that argument is obviously silly and made the professor's letter hard to take too seriously. Being on an athletic team is an extracurricular activity like being on The Chronicle or whatever, so it's pretty dumb to list that as a minus.

But, there are points that are not to be dismissed, like a lot of Duke fans being a little too smug about the UNC cheating scandal and it being a little over the top how much class these guys have to miss. These points probably need to be conveyed by a different spokesperson without the other nonsense.

I'm sorry, what now? There is a MAJOR difference between the typical lengths that athletic programs go to educate student-athletes when juggling demanding schedules and time constraints, and the unx scam of no-show classes with brief (plagiarized) papers graded by a secretary. Gimme a break.

[Wander]

There is a MAJOR difference between the typical lengths that athletic programs go to educate student-athletes when juggling demanding schedules and time constraints, and the unx scam of no-show classes with brief (plagiarized) papers graded by a secretary.

I agree, but this is not inconsistent with my statement.