MBB: Duke 87, Florida 84 (PK80 Champs) Post-Game Thread

[JBDuke]

Put your post-game thoughts here.

[WHOneedsSOX]

Wasn't pretty all weekend but they found a way to win.

Good teams find a way to win and bad teams find a way to lose. Duke found a way to win.

[wavedukefan70s]

Absolutely amazed.Bagley......

[WHOneedsSOX]

Duval didn't play well but came up big with that steal near the end. Trent too. Those 4 free throws were his first of the half right?

[duke4ever19]

WOW!!!

I thought we were dead in the water! This team. . .

[downeastdad]

Poor Jay. His team lost AGAIN!!!!

[Skydog]

Most unlikely comback since ... well 2 days ago.

[peterjswift]

I was waiting to see if Duke would effectively rebound their own missed free throws down the stretch. Last game a missed free throw created some offense on multiple occasions.

This game it just didn’t happen.

Props to Bagley and everyone for making their free throws down the stretch!

[fidel]

I'm not sure what caused the hot/cold on this one, but Bagley is a beast and this team has heart, if not great defense (yet).

[UrinalCake]

No quit in this team. Free throws, defense, and three point shooting won it for us. Who'd have thunk it? Oh, and Bagley being unstoppable didn't hurt either.

[JamminJoe]

Yooohoooo!! Damn this team knows how to turn it up in the last 7-8 minutes.

[ChillinDuke]

How does one fall asleep after that?

Wow, what a game.

Florida is an excellent team. I hope we never see them again. They looked better than any team I've watched so far this year.

- Chillin

[DukieInBrasil]

Big ol' props to Gary for those plays at the end
Marvin Bagley is really amazing. I'm impressed at the improvement in his FT shooting. We don't win this game if he shoots FTs tonight like he did a week ago.
Props to this team for not getting as down on themselves as we were getting on them in the chat!

[yancem]

Who was worried about 3pt (42%) and free throw shooting (95%!!!)? I’m going to bed😃

[mgtr]

Worth staying up for! Wow!

[weezie]

Stunning. Even more than the huge comebacks of the other two nights. How in the heck did they win this game?!

Moonpie was the chat stalwart!!!

But greatly impressed by Mike White. That dude can coach.

[JD for Three!]

Wow! All I can say is three phenomenal games in a row. Some great effort tonight. Plus a little icing icing on the cake with the cheats getting slapped around!

[BigZ]

Props to Duval for being great in the last three minutes

[duke4ever19]

Most unlikely comback since ... well 2 days ago.

This felt just a little like last year's ACC Tournament run. Just gutting out wins. Willing the team to victory.

[FerryFor50]

I was going to be fine with a loss there - even a blowout, because it would have been a "good loss" against a top team, and a teaching moment.

However, I'm perfectly happy with the win.

If Duke can stop taking bad shots (looking at you, GA) and instead, share the ball and run the offense through the post, they will be very hard to beat. It's no coincidence that UF ran out big leads off bad shots that resulted in fast break opportunities. Duke's still a work in progress in transition. But, when Duke slowed the pace a bit and worked it inside to get good shots, they cut into the lead. Then shooters like Trent, Allen, etc. saw open looks.

The zone defense was a nice wrinkle and helped get Duke back into it, but what won it at the end was man to man defense with some quick hands by Duval and Trent. Great stops when they needed them. Great block by Carter with 4 fouls.

I'm positive that if Duke keeps letting teams get out to big leads, it's going to eventually catch up to them and result in a loss, but for now, it's working.

I think uh_no is starting to believe in GUTS. :D

[OZZIE4DUKE]

Wow! Back from 17 down in the second half. Our magic number, right Devildeac!

LGD GTHc!

[G man]

Wow wow wow. What a game. Not sure my heart can keep taking these comebacks.

[hsheffield]

Moonpie is magic

[BigZ]

Both Texas and Florida made the mistake of playing a half court game in the last eight mins.

[thewoosh31]

All of this.


I was going to be fine with a loss there - even a blowout, because it would have been a "good loss" against a top team, and a teaching moment.

However, I'm perfectly happy with the win.

If Duke can stop taking bad shots (looking at you, GA) and instead, share the ball and run the offense through the post, they will be very hard to beat. It's no coincidence that UF ran out big leads off bad shots that resulted in fast break opportunities. Duke's still a work in progress in transition. But, when Duke slowed the pace a bit and worked it inside to get good shots, they cut into the lead. Then shooters like Trent, Allen, etc. saw open looks.

The zone defense was a nice wrinkle and helped get Duke back into it, but what won it at the end was man to man defense with some quick hands by Duval and Trent. Great stops when they needed them. Great block by Carter with 4 fouls.

I'm positive that if Duke keeps letting teams get out to big leads, it's going to eventually catch up to them and result in a loss, but for now, it's working.

I think uh_no is starting to believe in GUTS. :D

[Billy Dat]

Another astounding comeback, this one against a very impressive Florida team that is hard not to like and admire. We really had no business winning our last two games but K forced the starters to suck it up or lose by 20+ and they answered the bell and made a ton of plays down the stretch, even though they looked gassed. What a weekend!!! Obviously a lot of areas to improve but we are undefeated and have 2 top 10 wins. Woo Hoo!!!

[Hauerwas]

For all the words I said, and worse, for not believing in these guys. Holy freakin crap how did we just do that? Two steals under 1:00 and hitting free throws? Just amazed at their inability to give up. Wow. that was special.

[peterjswift]

Out of 125 minutes of gameplay in this tournament, Duke has had the lead for about 17 minutes.

They have played with a lead for only about 13% of this tournament. Yet they are the champions.

That has to be a great experience they can draw on throughout the rest of the season.

Of course, I think I’d prefer it if there isn’t occasion for them to be reminded of it in-game...

[Doria]

Amazing win (well, three wins, really)! We aren’t a finished product yet, but I really think I can see some tangible improvements, even if it’s only in fits and starts. These games haven’t been so good for my blood pressure, but no one lives forever!

[FerryFor50]

Another astounding comeback, this one against a very impressive Florida team that is hard not to like and admire. We really had no business winning our last two games but K forced the starters to suck it up or lose by 20+ and they answered the bell and made a ton of plays down the stretch, even though they looked gassed. What a weekend!!! Obviously a lot of areas to improve but we are undefeated and have 2 top 10 wins. Woo Hoo!!!

Did you notice how little UF talked during that game? I mean, hardly ANY woofing, even though they were playing great at times.

Love teams like that.

[ipatent]

19 for 20 at the line, Bagley 9 for 10 was the difference.

[Utley]

I love how hard Bagley plays - great hustle all night.

I think this win - and MSU - could serve us nicely come seeding time in March.

[MrPoon]

Florida had 82 with 4 to go. Defensive stops late in Florida and Texas games, shocking to see!

[91devil]

For all the words I said, and worse, for not believing in these guys. Holy freakin crap how did we just do that? Two steals under 1:00 and hitting free throws? Just amazed at their inability to give up. Wow. that was special.

“ball game, fellas”......times two. Does that sound familiar?

Please, tone down the negativity in the in-game threads. Please. Really, please.

[snewman92]

. . .how do you convince such a young team that they are NOT invincible after the last few games? We all know there is PLENTY to improve upon; no doubt the players know it, too. But I'll be interested to see how K and the other coaches convince them that they have to act on that knowledge and how to do so. Well, if anybody is up to that challenge, it's Coach K. And as a lifelong Hurricanes as well as a Duke fan, I have to say that victory, however stone-cold improbable, is sweet.

[MrPoon]

The crazy thought is how much growth this team still has in it!

[duke4ever19]

For all the words I said, and worse, for not believing in these guys. Holy freakin crap how did we just do that? Two steals under 1:00 and hitting free throws? Just amazed at their inability to give up. Wow. that was special.

No sweat. You are simply in the moment.

Emotions being pulled back-and-forth. It's the perfect scenario for yelling and swearing off basketball, demanding a new point guard, then turning around and saying our point guard is the best in the country, yelling at the ref for screwing over Carter and then thanking heaven they didn't see that foul our guy committed two plays later etc.

[Billy Dat]

@RobDauster
What will assuredly get lost in the mix is Gary Trent Jr.'s play in the final two minutes. Tough defensive board at the 2:00 mark, two FTs to put Duke ahead, picked Jalen Hudson's pocket with 15 seconds left, two FTs to put them up three. Tough. That kid's a winner.

[CDu]

What a fun game!

Duval is going to take a beating from some folks here, but the dirty secret is that Allen was no better. We were fortunate to figure things out just in time. Duval also showed his potential with that strip late. He is still figuring things out.

Bagley is a beast. He isn’t going to shoot FTs this well most nights, but he also won’t miss as many close shots.

I was glad to see Carter making plays in the second half. He had to be so frustrated with the foul trouble and missed layups. Nice for him to bounce back late.

Trent was so clutch. His early threes got us going, he added a monster rebound late, had the other huge steal, and was SO huge at the line.

Excellent efforts from our backup bigs too.

Allen... not his best work. Way too sloppy with the ball, and really struggled with his shot in traffic. He did find his 3pt stroke again though, and had 7 assists. Hopefully the rest of his game will rebound.

We aren’t likely to face better teams than MSU and UF.

[ehdg]

Love the heart these young players are showing! They don’t quit n keep fighting till the end. They showed that again today n all weekend. This team is far from playing good or their best basketball but keep winning. Once they start playing well both offensively n Defensively they’re going to be scary! This team is definitely going to be a very tough out come ACC & NCAA tournament time!

[uh_no]

duke won't be able to get away with 50% great 50% awful play forever.

When they're on, they're amazing. great ball movement, lock down defense.

When they're not, easy buckets on one end, and taking awful shots on the other. This team simply has too many weapons to be taking the first look that comes up, even if super difficult. This team has too many weapons for our bigs to try to put moves from bad positions against double and triple teams. Too many weapons for duval to be going one on one into a clogged lane. too many weapons for grayson to have to rely on craziness inside.

Our best play was when we WEREN'T taking those shots, when we moved the ball, when we got the easy shot...super efficient, able to get back on D.

And I have a hunch our defense is fueled by our offense. I'll pull this together later today, but i have a hunch...our defensive efficiency after a made bucket is miles better than that after a miss, let alone a live ball turnover. We need to do a better job setting up the defense quickly. too many buckets came when we were still sorting things out. That must improve...or else a miss on one side will always lead to a 4 point swing.


so few points
1) grayson played like a freshman today. when everyone else is taking the wrong shots, he needs to not pile on. he was 0-fer on his crazy go for broke drives. If he's going to drive, and I hope he does, he needs to have an exit plan that doesn't involve a prayer. Glad his threes started falling again. even when he missed a couple early ones, they were far closer than the past few games...he's had some REALLY bad misses before tonight
2) duval has goods and bads. there was some nastiness flying around the in game chat...not a fan of that, as he's extremely valuable on the floor. He needs to not look for his shot. not just dump it in to the bigs and stand there. Worst of all, though, he needs to learn to pull it out in transition. He has tunnel vision on the break, and seems to miss the fact that it's sometimes 3-4 on 1. it never ends well. Just need him to be a bit more of a rock out there. What I do appreciate is that when he gets pulled, he seems receptive, as his play when he gets back in is largely improved
3) o'connel again with huge "duval calm down" minutes
4) even though he had a rough game overall, and didn't score much, carter's play down the stretch was hugely underappreciated. Even though it was rough, good to see him still giving good effort at the end.
5) get back on D.


This team could be world beating if they were consistent. I think they can get there...and hope that this does not continue to be a pattern come ACC time. I still don't believe in guts...just solid play on both sides of the ball at the right times. They need to play that solid ball more quickly out of the gates. They're freshmen, though, and I hope the lesson they got out of this week is not "whatever we can tough it out."...and it's somewhat unfortunate that it's quite some time until our next really tough game.

Lets go put some cupcakes in their place.

Go Duke.

[ncexnyc]

The freshman are certainly playing up to the hype, but I'm not sure I'm going to make it through the season if they continue to follow this script.

Bonehead play after bonehead play and then they turn right around and amaze me a stretch of awesome basketball. I guess I should remember that when all is said and done it's the W that counts.

[uh_no]

Most unlikely comback since ... well 2 days ago.

wonder if we can get a clean sweep of KP's biggest comebacks for the week....

[uh_no]

Did you notice how little UF talked during that game? I mean, hardly ANY woofing, even though they were playing great at times.

Love teams like that.

i hear their coach comes from good stock.

[BLPOG]

Stats/records gurus, any info on how this game compares to previous games with large point swings? I can remember a few really amazing comebacks, but I don't remember any game that had as many swings this large.

[Olympic Fan]

“ball game, fellas”...times two. Does that sound familiar?

Please, tone down the negativity in the in-game threads. Please. Really, please.

I was going to post the same thing ... some of the posts in the in-game thread are downright embarrassing.

"Coach K is just a figurehead"? Damn, I wonder if some of these guys are Duke fans. Hauerwas, I wasn't going to call you out specifically, but you did come here to apologize. Still, after the Texas game, you pronounce this one over and proclaim that we're going to lose by 20 ...

Overall, reading the in-game thread made me think I was back on the Devil's Den (easily the most juvenile and ill-informed Duke message board).

Let's clean up out act. Duke has a great young team and we don't need to be giving up on them every time they struggle.

[Billy Dat]

Florida had 82 with 4 to go. Defensive stops late in Florida and Texas games, shocking to see!

They started going full 30 second clock before shooting for the final 10 minutes of the game. I thought it was smart of them, if I was Florida I’d think limiting possessions was fhe move.

[BLPOG]

Did you notice how little UF talked during that game? I mean, hardly ANY woofing, even though they were playing great at times.

Love teams like that.

Doesn't woofing have to happen prior to the game? Or does it still count if it's assuming the game's conclusion while the contest is still on?

[Kedsy]

Out of 125 minutes of gameplay in this tournament, Duke has had the lead for about 17 minutes.

They have played with a lead for only about 13% of this tournament. Yet they are the champions.

Actually, Duke had the lead for almost 28 minutes (27:52 to be exact) in the three games in Portland. That's 22.3%. Still pretty amazing, but we might as well try to be accurate.

[InSpades]

Admittedly I haven't seen that much college basketball so far this year but... if there's a better player in the country than Marvin Bagley III then I'll eat my shorts. He is special. We are lucky to get to watch him another 30 or so times this season. Without him this team is entirely different and nowhere near as good.

My heart can't take too many more these games though... need to figure out how to start as strong as we finish and then we're in for a treat.

[uh_no]

They started going full 30 second clock before shooting for the final 10 minutes of the game. I thought it was smart of them, if I was Florida I’d think limiting possessions was fhe move.

Funnily enough, I said to my dad that they started playing slow ball, when it was the quick buckets that had killed us most of the game.

Unless they were getting tired, I think slowing things down played straight into our hands. especially with carter in foul trouble.

[FerryFor50]

Some interesting stats:

- UF is a better 3 point shooting team. But, Duke shot better from 3 (10-23 compared to 8-20)
- We all seem to agree that Duke had moments where they didn't move the ball well. I noticed UF falling into that on occasion, too. That's backed up by Duke having 20 assists on 29 made shots. UF had only 11 assists on 30 made shots.
- Duke controlled the boards again, but UF was even with Duke on the offensive glass
- The freshman PG had 6 assists and just 2 turnovers. The senior guard had 7 assists and 4 turnovers. GA needs to tighten up a bit.

[OZ]

INCREDIBLE WIN! So danged proud of these kids AND their coaches. Enjoy Bagley while we have him... he's special; as is this team.
Going to bed shaking like a leaf. Last two games have put the nerves in overdrive.
These kids are learning and they are learning fast. As Allen told them... "do what the Coach says and you will win."

[peterjswift]

Actually, Duke had the lead for almost 28 minutes (27:52 to be exact) in the three games in Portland. That's 22.3%. Still pretty amazing, but we might as well try to be accurate.

That’s what I get for trying to add up the totals at 1:30 am on my phone using the ESPN game tracks... thanks for the correction! And you’re right - still very impressive.

[FerryFor50]

Funnily enough, I said to my dad that they started playing slow ball, when it was the quick buckets that had killed us most of the game.

Unless they were getting tired, I think slowing things down played straight into our hands. especially with carter in foul trouble.

I wonder if their fans were screaming about stall ball as much as we do.

[DukeFanSince1990]

Having a hard time falling asleep for some reason.

[Skydog]

wonder if we can get a clean sweep of KP's biggest comebacks for the week...

KP hasn't posted this one yet but he had us with a win prob of 3.5% vs Texas and this one will be lower. Truly miraculous (and fortuitous) comebacks!

[moonpie23]

rickshawboycall911 rickshawboycall911 is online now
Member


the gators are going to run us out of the building


umm...........i would agree with you if you were right.....

[CameronBornAndBred]

Speechless, and only partly because I'm too tired to speak. That was awesome.

[OZ]

rickshawboycall911 rickshawboycall911 is online now
Member


the gators are going to run us out of the building


umm....i would agree with you if you were right...

I think Rickshawboy just caught a cab , back to his apt, from some bar in Gainesville.

[JBDuke]

KP hasn't posted this one yet but he had us with a win prob of 3.5% vs Texas and this one will be lower. Truly miracle (and fortuitous) comebacks!

SportsCenter had us at a win probability of 1.9% when we were down 17 with about 10 mins to go.

[TNTDevil]

Watching again on the DVR and it's under 6:00 and you can see that Florida is gassed. We are too but, not quite as bad.

And for all of ESPN's (legit) fluffing of Chiozza, he cost them a lot down the stretch. He may have contributed to us balancing out the rebound totals.

[Wander]

duke won't be able to get away with 50% great 50% awful play forever.


Uh_no is disappointed in the Rebel Alliance for taking three attack runs to blow up the Death Star.

[uh_no]

I wonder if their fans were screaming about stall ball as much as we do.

at this rate, we won't have to worry much about playing stall ball this year :P

though I do wish we had an opportunity to...because it IS a skill to actually initiate the offense rather than just going 1-1 as college teams often do.

I wonder if coaches actually track efficiency before and after one goes to stall ball. Obviously on the whole, it was lower tonight for florida.

Speaking of nerd things, very surprised we didn't go 2-for-1 at the end. obviously the defense pulled through, but being in a position to have a guaranteed last possession is huge. Quite possible that with as spotty as the team's O had been, that trying to speed up might have lowered the efficiency enough to make it a less viable strat.....given we got a shot clock violation anyway, we probably should have done it.

[WHOneedsSOX]

Funnily enough, I said to my dad that they started playing slow ball, when it was the quick buckets that had killed us most of the game.

Unless they were getting tired, I think slowing things down played straight into our hands. especially with carter in foul trouble.

It's the smart move though. Duke has always done the same thing. Turnovers killed Florida. They had 2 in the final 2 minutes that led to 4 points for Duke.

[El_Diablo]

Florida is an excellent team. I hope we never see them again. They looked better than any team I've watched so far this year.

No. There is another.

[OZ]

Actually, Duke had the lead for almost 28 minutes (27:52 to be exact) in the three games in Portland. That's 22.3%. Still pretty amazing, but we might as well try to be accurate.

The most important stat in every game of basketball is who is leading at the end. In Duke's case, these three games in Portland - 100%

[FerryFor50]

Speaking of nerd things, very surprised we didn't go 2-for-1 at the end.

They were going 2-for-1 most of the game, so... :D

[TNTDevil]

wonder if we can get a clean sweep of KP's biggest comebacks for the week...Just in this game? Or for the tournament?

[uh_no]

Uh_no is disappointed in the Rebel Alliance for taking three attack runs to blow up the Death Star.

It only took one try the second time around, am I right? Had they just rested on their laurels after that first one, who knows what could have happened!

[BLPOG]

No. There is another.

Ha! Their feeble skills are no match for the power of the Duke Side.

[uh_no]

Just in this game? Or for the tournament?

surely the first comeback would be a footnote!

[johnb]

...disappointed in the Rebel Alliance for taking three attack runs to blow up the Death Star.

Haha

[evrim]

What a fun game!

Duval is going to take a beating from some folks here, but the dirty secret is that Allen was no better. We were fortunate to figure things out just in time. Duval also showed his potential with that strip late. He is still figuring things out.

Allen... not his best work. Way too sloppy with the ball, and really struggled with his shot in traffic. He did find his 3pt stroke again though, and had 7 assists. Hopefully the rest of his game will rebound.

We aren’t likely to face better teams than MSU and UF.

I think Allen was guarded by the other Allen - who is an amazing defender. I believe Coach K talked to him (UF Allen) during the handshake for a while. I was pretty down on Duval, as he was really playing out of control but then he got his act togehter. Also Carter getting involved really opened up things for us.

[TNTDevil]

INCREDIBLE WIN! So danged proud of these kids AND their coaches. Enjoy Bagley while we have him... he's special; as is this team.
Going to bed shaking like a leaf. Last two games have put the nerves in overdrive.
These kids are learning and they are learning fast. As Allen told them... "do what the Coach says and you will win."Don't bother. Have a Double and let the adrenaline drain.

[evrim]

And how do you sleep after this? You don't, you just watch the replay!

[WHOneedsSOX]

I think Allen was guarded by the other Allen - who is an amazing defender. I believe Coach K talked to him (UF Allen) during the handshake for a while. I was pretty down on Duval, as he was really playing out of control but then he got his act togehter. Also Carter getting involved really opened up things for us.

It was Chiozza on Allen all game. He looked like an elite defender. Allen couldn't get anything in the 2nd half even though he's 4-5 inches taller.

[Billy Dat]

First half note - solid minutes from Bolden. He had a good week.

[TNTDevil]

First half note - solid minutes from Bolden. He had a good week.Yeah, keep pushing forward, scro. He's quickly becoming a competent player off the bench.

[WHOneedsSOX]

Yeah, keep pushing forward, scro. He's quickly becoming a competent player off the bench.

Duke has some really good role players it looks like. Bolden, DeLaurier, and O'Connell will all make a big impact throughout the rest of the season. If DeLaurier can get a good 15-17 foot jump shot he's going to be one heck of a player.

[ice-9]

This was the first Duke game I was able to watch (plus highlights and box scores of other games). Some emerging thoughts based on just this game so may be more anecdotal than fundamental...

Bagley and Carter are the two strengths of this team. They’re really good, and it seems like the team will build around them.

This will present a major adjustment for Grayson as he would not have the open driving lanes he’s used to having, as those two guys and their defenders clog the middle more often. That’s one of the reasons he struggled so much on drives today. But I think he’ll eventually adjust as he’s such a good shooter.

The guy who doesn’t quite fit might be Duval, who isn’t a great shooter and himself prefers to drive and create. He was most useful today in a spot-up role, and unfortunately that’s not playing to his strengths. We may need to force turnovers and go for the fast break more often to utilize Duval’s potential.

We were pretty lucky this game - if Florida’s late 3 or the late free throw hadn’t rimmed out, we may not have won this game.

Our late steals were game changing, but for the majority of the game we weren’t able to stop penetration. That will definitely need to change.

[thewoosh31]

Found this YouTube channel that uploads highlights/score attempts of specific players and/or games.

https://youtu.be/bIGP-3y3Qx4

This one is for Bagley’s game against Florida. He’s done them for other players. I may just watch these going forward in the future instead of DVR. Saves me 1.5 hours of 2 hours each time.

[Billy Dat]

Who was worried about 3pt (42%) and free throw shooting (95%!!!)? I’m going to bed😃

I would have said we were capable of shooting 42% from 3 on a good day but No Way, based on the first seven games, did I think we could go 19-20 from the line. Crazy.

[Eternal Outlaw]

What an incredible night and tournament to experience. They'll make their mistakes and have lapses but never count them out.

Cherry on top seeing dejected fans of another school thinking they were going to see us go down making their night after their butt whipping.

[Kedsy]

If DeLaurier can get a good 15-17 foot jump shot he's going to be one heck of a player.

Javin has to learn not to foul so much, but to my eyes he's our best defensive player, by far.

People seem to be down on Grayson's drives, but he had at least two really nice drives and dishes to the corner for open three-point attempts. His a/to for the three PK80 games was 21 to 7, that's 7.0 apg and a 3:1 a/to ratio, which is pretty darn good.

Today's 33.3% OR% was the first game this season our offensive rebounding has been below 39.5%. For the season, we're at 43.2%, which if it lasted all season would be Duke's 2nd-best OR% ever.

[TNTDevil]

For the second time in as many games, Gary Trent Jr. has shot a FT to give us the lead.

[Doria]

I would have said we were capable of shooting 42% from 3 on a good day but No Way, based on the first seven games, did I think we could go 19-20 from the line. Crazy.

Yeah, really! But it looks like Bagley has really worked on his FT form, as he’s been steadily improving. Which, of course, is extremely good for us.

[gam7]

@RobDauster
What will assuredly get lost in the mix is Gary Trent Jr.'s play in the final two minutes. Tough defensive board at the 2:00 mark, two FTs to put Duke ahead, picked Jalen Hudson's pocket with 15 seconds left, two FTs to put them up three. Tough. That kid's a winner.

Agree that Trent was huge during that time period, but let's not cherrypick - he also had an extremely ill-advised reach-in foul on Hudson that he was bailed out on when Hudson missed the front end.

What a game.

[sagegrouse]

I'm not sure what caused the hot/cold on this one, but Bagley is a beast and this team has heart, if not great defense (yet).
The Gators appeared to suffer from fatigue i keeping up with both Duke's shooters and our big men, who only got stronger. Florida was obviously on the verge of a major upset, ased on their extrememly active the taking advantage of Dule's lapses.

The last five minutes of the game, when we kept them scoreless was just smart play -- and tough. Proud to be a support of the team.

[subzero02]

A lot of Allen's shots on drives just didn't go in despite being pretty good shots. Bagley had many more somewhat difficult shots roll off the rim than Grayson did. Both players could have had better shot selection tonight but I liked the aggression I saw from Bagley.

[heyman25]

Spectacular Tournament Championship win.This team looks like its DOA, then the next thing you know they have clawed their way back. Lucky to see Marvin Bagley III. He is one of the best players we have ever had and it is still in November.
Great starting 5 with many flaws and vulnerabilities,but they will improve.

Like to see DeLaurier,Bolden,O'Connell, Goldwire and Vrankovic score more when they play. They will be open if they get PT. Trent Jr. was productive tonight. If he can get consistent that will take the scoring load off Bagley and Allen. Carter struggled but is very composed and was playing with 4 fouls as was DeLaurier.

Cardiac Kids comes to mind. Those last 3 games were unbelievable.

[subzero02]

Agree that Trent was huge during that time period, but let's not cherrypick - he also had an extremely ill-advised reach-in foul on Hudson that he was bailed out on when Hudson missed the front end.

What a game.

The fact that he was called for the reach-in on the previous possession makes it even more impressive that he went for it again on the next defensive possession and was successful. There is lots of moxie on this squad. Young, reckless, and incredibly talented. I'm enjoying this season quite a bit so far. The ceiling is the roof...

[CameronBornAndBred]

Lucky to see Marvin Bagley III. He is one of the best players we have ever had and it is still in November.

Without being overly dramatic, after watching Bagley up until this point, we are watching Lebron had he been made to go to college.

[WHOneedsSOX]

Without being overly dramatic, after watching Bagley up until this point, we are watching Lebron had he been made to go to college.

I don't know about that. Bagley is a dominant college player for sure and definitely one of Duke's most talented but LeBron was in a whole different class coming out of high school. LeBron was/is a freak athlete in a whole different class. In terms of athleticism I'd say LeBron was a 10/10 while Bagley is a 9/10 which is still dominant but not at that level LeBron was at. The speed, the strength, the athleticism, LeBron had it all at the highest of highs.

[TruBlu]

What great news to wake up to at 3:00 AM. Checking the score was the first thing I did after waking up. (Actually the second thing, but y’all don’t want to hear about the first thing.)

Now to drink coffee and watch some of the replay . . . probably about the last 12 minutes.

[JetpackJesus]

I don't know about that. Bagley is a dominant college player for sure and definitely one of Duke's most talented but LeBron was in a whole different class coming out of high school. LeBron was/is a freak athlete in a whole different class. In terms of athleticism I'd say LeBron was a 10/10 while Bagley is a 9/10 which is still dominant but not at that level LeBron was at. The speed, the strength, the athleticism, LeBron had it all at the highest of highs.

I guess it's maybe an exaggeration, but I don't know that it's wrong, necessarily. He's not (probably) the next LBJ--I imagine that guy will be like obscenity--especially considering how post play is developing in the NBA. But right now MBIII seems like he'd be in the LBJ, Kobe, and KG class of players to go straight from HS to the NBA. That's something.

I mean, right now--as a high school senior--he's averaging 22.3 PPG and 11.3 RPG (I think ESPN is updated), and that includes his 10 minutes against MSU, where he still had 6 boards and only 4 points. He's just really good, and I'm pretty sure he should be in the NBA right now.

[TKG]

Yes, we won and that is always better than losing but......

7846

[lotusland]

Admittedly I haven't seen that much college basketball so far this year but... if there's a better player in the country than Marvin Bagley III then I'll eat my shorts. He is special. We are lucky to get to watch him another 30 or so times this season. Without him this team is entirely different and nowhere near as good.

My heart can't take too many more these games though... need to figure out how to start as strong as we finish and then we're in for a treat.

Yeah I watch very little NBA these days and find the Warriors brand of ball to be boring as heck so I’m not an expert by any means. But if Bagley goes 4th in the draft there are 3 really dumb GMs.

[lotusland]

I wonder if their fans were screaming about stall ball as much as we do.

I’d love to nurse a lead going down the stretch for a change but this Duke team might be tough to watch playing stall ball. If Duvall stays on the court he’s going to the line every time he touches the ball. At least Bagley looks much improved shooting free throws.

[Native]

I guess it's maybe an exaggeration, but I don't know that it's wrong, necessarily. He's not (probably) the next LBJ--I imagine that guy will be like obscenity--especially considering how post play is developing in the NBA. But right now MBIII seems like he'd be in the LBJ, Kobe, and KG class of players to go straight from HS to the NBA. That's something.

I mean, right now--as a high school senior--he's averaging 22.3 PPG and 11.3 RPG (I think ESPN is updated), and that includes his 10 minutes against MSU, where he still had 6 boards and only 4 points. He's just really good, and I'm pretty sure he should be in the NBA right now.

Perhaps a more apt comparison might be Kevin Durant? Maybe not stylistically, but statistically they're sort of similar. I know it's early in the season, but Durant averaged 25.8PPG and 11RPG (https://www.sports-reference.com/cbb/players/kevin-durant-1.html) in his year at Texas. Bagley is in that ballpark, albeit with slightly fewer points per game — and he's already shown he can do it against good competition. If he doesn't hit a freshman wall, he could match those averages.

[Saratoga2]

Being an older guy now I decided I could not stay up for an eleven o:clock (east coast) start and went to bed early, since my wife was watching a chick show. I went to bed thinking Florida was a very good team with quick and experienced guards and a plethora of 3 point shooters plus one quality big man. Just the type of team that would give duke fits with its poor transition defense and lack of help on penetration. The zone would unlikely work due to the 3 point shooting. My view was that main hope

Like a lot of older guys I woke up to make my normal visit and noticed it was 12:30 so turned on the TV to watch the last 9 minutes or so of the game. At that point, Duke was down by around 16 points and it seemed to confirm my thinking. but then it appeared that a combination of our inside game, our free throw shooting and rebounding started to narrow the score. All of a sudden we were down by 8 and I thought to myself, "Could this be happening again?" We had some good stops and a great save by Bagley on a ball going out of bounds and a hit by Grayson and the score narrowed to 3 and then we went ahead by 1. Couldn't believe what was happening. When Florida missed the front end of a 1 and 1 and we got the rebound and Gary, who thinks the game dribbled back and forced Florida to come and foul him. He made the two FTs and we had a nice defensive sequence and it was another miraculous win. Through the time I thought coach K took all the right time outs and instructed the team well.

Coming away from the 1/4 I saw, I find Bagley to be such an impressive you man and player. He can do it all yet is not above passing it to a team mate when he is heavily guarded. Gary impressed me with his defense and his game awareness is more that of a veteran player. The same could be said of Wendell as he is a rock inside and makes veteran plays. Great win under tournament like conditions.

Even better, I noticed that UNC got blasted by MSU. Great way to finish the night.

[mpj96]

Great notes, Saratoga. I couldn't hack the late start time either. PK80 is a great tourney but timing is kind of a slap in the face to east coasters. Looking forward to watching it on replay later.

[dukelifer]

I’d love to nurse a lead going down the stretch for a change but this Duke team might be tough to watch playing stall ball. If Duvall stays on the court he’s going to the line every time he touches the ball. At least Bagley looks much improved shooting free throws.

Well I bailed when down by 17 in the second half. Just finished the replay of what I missed. A few things. The guys hit their throws- that was big- perhaps the best thing that happened in this game. Bagley was impressive- he gets better as the game goes along. He plays at another level- his ability to jump quickly is like none other. Duke had no business winning but they did by playing hard at the end. This team is learning and it is always better to learn and win- but lots and lots to work on. Coming back from big deficits is not easy and a sign of toughness and focus. This team has guys that hate losing. Carter continues to show his competitiveness even after a very poor game. At some point this team is going to come together and when they do - wow.

[BluDvlsN1]

Props to this team for not getting as down on themselves as we were getting on them in the chat!

Now there's a concept worth buying into!!

Our team is growing up fast and overcoming their mistakes,
This tournament and the playing from behind come backs
speaks volume's for their collective heart as a team.

The play in this tournament exposed a lot for the coaches
To work on. It also should give us confidence as fans, that they've
Not only bought in, but intend to do whats necessary win.

A good measure of fan patience and support are in order,
In my humble opinion.

[dukelifer]

I guess it's maybe an exaggeration, but I don't know that it's wrong, necessarily. He's not (probably) the next LBJ--I imagine that guy will be like obscenity--especially considering how post play is developing in the NBA. But right now MBIII seems like he'd be in the LBJ, Kobe, and KG class of players to go straight from HS to the NBA. That's something.

I mean, right now--as a high school senior--he's averaging 22.3 PPG and 11.3 RPG (I think ESPN is updated), and that includes his 10 minutes against MSU, where he still had 6 boards and only 4 points. He's just really good, and I'm pretty sure he should be in the NBA right now.

He commands your attention like LBJ. I think he may have a future ;)

[AtlDuke72]

For all the words I said, and worse, for not believing in these guys. Holy freakin crap how did we just do that? Two steals under 1:00 and hitting free throws? Just amazed at their inability to give up. Wow. that was special.

There should be a separate thread for the whiners. Gets real tiresome

[AtlDuke72]

duke won't be able to get away with 50% great 50% awful play forever.

When they're on, they're amazing. great ball movement, lock down defense.

When they're not, easy buckets on one end, and taking awful shots on the other. This team simply has too many weapons to be taking the first look that comes up, even if super difficult. This team has too many weapons for our bigs to try to put moves from bad positions against double and triple teams. Too many weapons for duval to be going one on one into a clogged lane. too many weapons for grayson to have to rely on craziness inside.

Our best play was when we WEREN'T taking those shots, when we moved the ball, when we got the easy shot...super efficient, able to get back on D.

And I have a hunch our defense is fueled by our offense. I'll pull this together later today, but i have a hunch...our defensive efficiency after a made bucket is miles better than that after a miss, let alone a live ball turnover. We need to do a better job setting up the defense quickly. too many buckets came when we were still sorting things out. That must improve...or else a miss on one side will always lead to a 4 point swing.


so few points
1) grayson played like a freshman today. when everyone else is taking the wrong shots, he needs to not pile on. he was 0-fer on his crazy go for broke drives. If he's going to drive, and I hope he does, he needs to have an exit plan that doesn't involve a prayer. Glad his threes started falling again. even when he missed a couple early ones, they were far closer than the past few games...he's had some REALLY bad misses before tonight
2) duval has goods and bads. there was some nastiness flying around the in game chat...not a fan of that, as he's extremely valuable on the floor. He needs to not look for his shot. not just dump it in to the bigs and stand there. Worst of all, though, he needs to learn to pull it out in transition. He has tunnel vision on the break, and seems to miss the fact that it's sometimes 3-4 on 1. it never ends well. Just need him to be a bit more of a rock out there. What I do appreciate is that when he gets pulled, he seems receptive, as his play when he gets back in is largely improved
3) o'connel again with huge "duval calm down" minutes
4) even though he had a rough game overall, and didn't score much, carter's play down the stretch was hugely underappreciated. Even though it was rough, good to see him still giving good effort at the end.
5) get back on D.


This team could be world beating if they were consistent. I think they can get there...and hope that this does not continue to be a pattern come ACC time. I still don't believe in guts...just solid play on both sides of the ball at the right times. They need to play that solid ball more quickly out of the gates. They're freshmen, though, and I hope the lesson they got out of this week is not "whatever we can tough it out."...and it's somewhat unfortunate that it's quite some time until our next really tough game.

Lets go put some cupcakes in their place.

Go Duke.

Give it a rest. Tiresd of the whiners. Going to read IC. It is more positive.

[camion]

Old fart that I am, I'll be watching the game this evening after my 4 PM dinner. My two main takeaways from this thread so far:

1. Marvin Bagley accounted for 100% of the Duke free throw misses. Hope he fixes that.

2. UNC tried the Duke forumula of "fall behind early and mount furious comeback." They got it half right. :)

[weezie]

...Going to read IC. It is more positive.

:cool:It's fun over there today. Lots of light blue and black plaid blankie clutching going on.

[DukieInKansas]

Great notes, Saratoga. I couldn't hack the late start time either. PK80 is a great tourney but timing is kind of a slap in the face to east coasters. Looking forward to watching it on replay later.
West coast would say the same about 7pn EST starts as they are still at work. ;)

[DukieTiger]

West coast would say the same about 7pn EST starts as they are still at work. ;)

Understandable on a weeknight but not on a Sunday :)

Against elite competition this year (MSU, UT, UF) Bagley is 18-23 from the free throw line, good for 78%. That’s an encouraging sign, since much of his FT trouble happened at the beginning of the year, we might be seeing a trend of improvement.

Love seeing the fight in this team, and knowing how much room for improvement there is.

Love that they used an 8-man rotation, and that AOC was #8. If he can hang in the rotation for 5-10 minutes in competitive games, it’s a huge boost to the backcourt, giving the team another shooter.

[flyingdutchdevil]

1) What the hell happened? I still can't explain what happened. I was fully expecting Duke to lose (and be okay with it) because Duke has so much to learn about discipline and defense. My goodness this team doesn't give up. They have 2-3 more gears in the last 10 min then they do in the first 30 min. It's nerve-wrenching but amazing to watch.

2) Bagley is Duke's best player. I thought Bags would be Duke's most talented player. I thought Allen would be Duke's best, most important, and most consistent player. Nope. Allen has MSU. Bags has everything else.

3) Duke starts Allen, 3 freshman, and Bagley. Because it's not fair or accurate to put Bagley in the same conversation as our other three freshman starters.

4) Our defense is a mess, but it's a mess that can work for periods of time due to our athleticism. I don't really have many problems with our O other than FT shooting and some shot selection. I get it; we don't have 3pt shooters galore. But our D is horrible. I hope all the coaching goes into our D. It's fair to say that we're the top (or top 3) offensive team in the country. On D? Some of the same problems we've historically seen: horrible help D, blow bys on drives... we can now add poor close-outs on 3s. But I have more confidence than any recent team that, if we need a stop, we can get one. Because...

5) This team has potential on defense. Unlike many here, I don't think Allen is a good defender nor do I think he'll ever be a good defender. That was evident against Texas and FL where Allen did not do a great job. But we have five players who can become excellent defenders (in descending order): Javin, Duval, Bagley, Trent, and Bolden. Javin is already very good and is our only defender with the ability to defend the dribble and the post. Duval is just so long and has a desire to defend. Bagley is too athletic and driven to not be a good defender (although he tries very hard - and succeeds - to not foul). Trent is a smart defender who gambles just a little too much. And Bolden, when motivated and discipline, is a really competent defender. But can this team defender as one? We'll see, but at least the tools are there.

6) Carter needs to keep his emotions in check. When he gets agitated, he either fouls, gets too aggressive, or something worse (like against MSU). It's a pattern I'm noticing.

7) Allen needs to stop playing hero ball, unless he's on the 3pt line. Allen drives, for whatever reason, are easy to contain for good teams. He hasn't been the same driver as he was in his sophomore year. That drive will be there for opportunistic plays, but I hope Allen remains a shooter. That 3pt shot is deadly.

8) Hard to not admire this UF team. They are fun, they are disciplined, and they remind me of nearly every Duke team in the last 15 years. Put me in the bangwagon of, "if the Duke coaching tree doesn't have a young coach crushing it in a Power 6 conference, gimme Mike White." P.S. Mike White - please don't go to the NBA.

[UrinalCake]

It should be noted that we played most of this game without Carter due to foul trouble, much like we played most of the Texas game without Allen. In both cases, our comebacks started and once we brought all the starters back onto the court for the final 10 minutes. So the optimist in me would say that if we can stay out of foul trouble, we won’t fall behind by these huge deficits. But I know there’s more to it than that.

Really satisfying win with contributions from everyone. Quick turnaround for the players now, Indiana will be fired up and it’s our first true road game. Falling behind early would be a bad thing.

[sagegrouse]

FWIW, although we played very well late in the second half and in the closing minutes, I thought Florida ran out of gas in going against a bigger, more athletic team.

[bluenorth]

I'm another of the "just watched it this morning crowd". The biggest plus from the season so far must be that this group will not quit, and they've seen the results. They will be hard to beat on any night. I agree that Florida ran out of gas a bit, but I wonder if Coach White would (in hindsight) slow the game down as much as he did. Looked like he wanted the clock to wind down as much as possible on Florida's possessions.

[Neals384]

KP hasn't posted this one yet but he had us with a win prob of 3.5% vs Texas and this one will be lower. Truly miraculous (and fortuitous) comebacks!

Down 17 with 9:54 to go, espn had Duke win probability at 1.5%

[CDu]

4) Our defense is a mess, but it's a mess that can work for periods of time due to our athleticism. I don't really have many problems with our O other than FT shooting and some shot selection. I get it; we don't have 3pt shooters galore. But our D is horrible. I hope all the coaching goes into our D. It's fair to say that we're the top (or top 3) offensive team in the country. On D? Some of the same problems we've historically seen: horrible help D, blow bys on drives... we can now add poor close-outs on 3s. But I have more confidence than any recent team that, if we need a stop, we can get one. Because...

5) This team has potential on defense. Unlike many here, I don't think Allen is a good defender nor do I think he'll ever be a good defender. That was evident against Texas and FL where Allen did not do a great job. But we have five players who can become excellent defenders (in descending order): Javin, Duval, Bagley, Trent, and Bolden. Javin is already very good and is our only defender with the ability to defend the dribble and the post. Duval is just so long and has a desire to defend. Bagley is too athletic and driven to not be a good defender (although he tries very hard - and succeeds - to not foul). Trent is a smart defender who gambles just a little too much. And Bolden, when motivated and discipline, is a really competent defender. But can this team defender as one? We'll see, but at least the tools are there.

The one thing I've noticed is that the team gets caught flat-footed a lot. Even our athletes like Duval get blown by more than they should. That's a big part of the problem: we struggle with defending dribble penetration (stop me if you've heard that before). Hopefully our young guys will get better at defending the dribble as the season progresses. I'm sure it is a steep learning curve going from high school to college in that regard.

The good thing is that we have so much length and athleticism that we can get away with it for the most part. But it would be nice to clean that up (a lot) as the season continues. If we can contain drives better, we're going to be really really tough to beat. Heck, we're already really tough to beat as it stands.


7) Allen needs to stop playing hero ball, unless he's on the 3pt line. Allen drives, for whatever reason, are easy to contain for good teams. He hasn't been the same driver as he was in his sophomore year. That drive will be there for opportunistic plays, but I hope Allen remains a shooter. That 3pt shot is deadly.

I think the difference in Allen's driving is largely the byproduct of the players around him. Allen is largely a straight-line driver without much nuance to his drives. When we were playing 4-out, 1-in (or 5-out), Allen had plenty of driving lanes, and that straight-line style would work just fine. But with 2 bigs in the game, the lanes are crowded with bodies. And as such, it's much harder to get a straight-line drive to the basket. In this one sense, Kennard would be better-suited for this year's team than Allen. Kennard didn't bull-rush his way at the rim, but rather relied on craftiness and guile to get off his shot in the paint.

Allen still brings a lot to the table, but I fear that his half-court driving ability won't be as effective this year than it was in his last healthy year (2015-16), due largely to the composition of this year's team.


8) Hard to not admire this UF team. They are fun, they are disciplined, and they remind me of nearly every Duke team in the last 15 years. Put me in the bangwagon of, "if the Duke coaching tree doesn't have a young coach crushing it in a Power 6 conference, gimme Mike White." P.S. Mike White - please don't go to the NBA.

I'm not ready to peg Mike White as the best option. He's had a great start to his UF career. But he's not shown he can recruit at the level of Duke (yet). I wouldn't discard him from consideration, but I'd not necessarily put him ahead of Capel. Capel has shown the ability to recruit, and also has the benefit of learning from Coach K how to run an elite program.

[Billy Dat]

It boggles the mind that we erased two 15 point deficits, one in each half.

Here are the various runs...

Florida 21-6 to start the game
Duke follows with a 38-16
Florida closes the half 16-6
Florida starts the second half on a 21-8 run
If forget the halftime break, that UF run was 37-14!
From UF being up 17 with 10:17 to go, we close on a 30-10 run.

Pretty crazy.

[BandAlum83]

It should be noted that we played most of this game without Carter due to foul trouble, much like we played most of the Texas game without Allen. In both cases, our comebacks started and once we brought all the starters back onto the court for the final 10 minutes. So the optimist in me would say that if we can stay out of foul trouble, we won’t fall behind by these huge deficits. But I know there’s more to it than that.

Really satisfying win with contributions from everyone. Quick turnaround for the players now, Indiana will be fired up and it’s our first true road game. Falling behind early would be a bad thing.

I believe the comeback against Texas started when Duval was put on the bench, AOC came in and GA was moved to the point.

And also important to note is that Duke had TWO comebacks in the game against FL: one in the first half and one in the second half.

The first half comeback occurred while Phil knight was being interviewed and we went from 14 down to 7 up. The Phil Knight interview was an annoying distraction from the game (Watch Bilas and Shulman Kiss a**), but I believe Bolden and AOC were in for Carter and Duvall. Trent and GA sparked that comeback with a combined 4 threes. AOC had one and Bolden had at lease one monster rebound and a basket.

Someone please correct me if I'm wrong on any of this.

ETA: In no way am I even suggesting that Duval needs to be on the bench. He has been and will continue to be a vital starter on this team. He impresses every day. I was there to witness Johnny Dawkins' freshman year. He made some really bonehead plays, and I think Duval is in the same boat. Duval is a natural PG, unlike Johnny, and he has a gift for seeing the court and making the right pass. Sometimes, however, he does try to do too much. Obviously he isn't a scorer like Johnny, but does look like him in transition.

Just from the eye test (no stats to back this up) I do think he will challenge the Duke freshman assist record.

[jv001]

The one thing I've noticed is that the team gets caught flat-footed a lot. Even our athletes like Duval get blown by more than they should. That's a big part of the problem: we struggle with defending dribble penetration (stop me if you've heard that before). Hopefully our young guys will get better at defending the dribble as the season progresses. I'm sure it is a steep learning curve going from high school to college in that regard.

The good thing is that we have so much length and athleticism that we can get away with it for the most part. But it would be nice to clean that up (a lot) as the season continues. If we can contain drives better, we're going to be really really tough to beat. Heck, we're already really tough to beat as it stands.



I think the difference in Allen's driving is largely the byproduct of the players around him. Allen is largely a straight-line driver without much nuance to his drives. When we were playing 4-out, 1-in (or 5-out), Allen had plenty of driving lanes, and that straight-line style would work just fine. But with 2 bigs in the game, the lanes are crowded with bodies. And as such, it's much harder to get a straight-line drive to the basket. In this one sense, Kennard would be better-suited for this year's team than Allen. Kennard didn't bull-rush his way at the rim, but rather relied on craftiness and guile to get off his shot in the paint.

Allen still brings a lot to the table, but I fear that his half-court driving ability won't be as effective this year than it was in his last healthy year (2015-16), due largely to the composition of this year's team.



I'm not ready to peg Mike White as the best option. He's had a great start to his UF career. But he's not shown he can recruit at the level of Duke (yet). I wouldn't discard him from consideration, but I'd not necessarily put him ahead of Capel. Capel has shown the ability to recruit, and also has the benefit of learning from Coach K how to run an elite program.

I think it was Bilas that made the same comment that you made. It was something to the effect, the lane is too crowded for Grayson's drives.
I've noticed that the times Grayson ran the point, we seem to get better entry passes to our big guys. That's something Duval can learn from. Good post by the way. GoDuke!

[flyingdutchdevil]

I think it was Bilas that made the same comment that you made. It was something to the effect, the lane is too crowded for Grayson's drives.
I've noticed that the times Grayson ran the point, we seem to get better entry passes to our big guys. That's something Duval can learn from. Good post by the way. GoDuke!

Disagree with this. Grayson is good at entry passes; Duval is elite. Where Duval often has turnovers is driving in the lane and finding an open man. IMO, Grayson does a better job of this. But feeding the bigs? Duval's entry passes are really good.

Also, Duval and TOs aren't a big deal. He had 11 total against Texsa and Portland State, but he's had 9 in the other 6 games. I'd like to think that Texas and PS are outliers. But we'll know as the season progresses.

[Billy Dat]

I think it was Bilas that made the same comment that you made. It was something to the effect, the lane is too crowded for Grayson's drives.
I've noticed that the times Grayson ran the point, we seem to get better entry passes to our big guys. That's something Duval can learn from. Good post by the way. GoDuke!

I haven't rewatched, but I seem to recall that during the decisive run that won the game, and during his more effective portions of the second half, Grayson was shot faking on closeouts at the 3 point line, and doing the side dribble to get another look at 3 rather than driving into the teeth of the D. Those possessions seemed to go better.

Overall, we definitely reverted to one-on-one ball many times, which makes sense with our youth and their inbred habits from being the best player on their teams until now (save Marvin). Hopefully as we get more practice, they'll develop better movement off the ball. Someone tweeted out an old Rick Majerus quote that the best off the ball cut in basketball is the player relocating to vacated space to maintain floor balance.

[OZ]

I think it was Bilas that made the same comment that you made. It was something to the effect, the lane is too crowded for Grayson's drives.
I've noticed that the times Grayson ran the point, we seem to get better entry passes to our big guys. That's something Duval can learn from. Good post by the way. GoDuke!

Something, I sometimes overlook is that on THIS team, this is Grayson's first year. As with the freshmen, I suspect it is going to take a while for him to understand his role and to adjust to this TOTALLY new group. Allen is a senior and a talented one; but with this group, he's still new.

[CajunDevil]

A couple of thoughts:
1. Bagley is a generational talent. Durant and Melo-type Freshman impact. Best Freshman in college since Durant.
2. Man-to-man with game on the line is money.
3. Duke just needs practice. As K mentioned in his presser, our guys haven't practiced much in the past 17-18 days. Duval has suffered the most, by over-penetrating, and trying to do too much - which he wasn't doing in the first few games.
4. Carter is thinking too much at times on the floor - I suppose it's all part of being a Freshman transitioning to a different level of play. But when the defender fell down last night, he should've driven to the hoop and tried to tear the basket down. It seems like sometimes he doesn't know his own strength or doesn't want to impose his will on the defender. Too nice?
5. The level of determination and never quit in this team is inspiring.

[devildeac]

Wow! Back from 17 down in the second half. Our magic number, right Devildeac!

LGD GTHc!

No 17 point lead is safe. Well, maybe most 17 point leads are safe, depending on the time, place, teams playing, foul situation and...

:o

[CajunDevil]

I haven't rewatched, but I seem to recall that during the decisive run that won the game, and during his more effective portions of the second half, Grayson was shot faking on closeouts at the 3 point line, and doing the side dribble to get another look at 3 rather than driving into the teeth of the D. Those possessions seemed to go better.

Overall, we definitely reverted to one-on-one ball many times, which makes sense with our youth and their inbred habits from being the best player on their teams until now (save Marvin). Hopefully as we get more practice, they'll develop better movement off the ball. Someone tweeted out an old Rick Majerus quote that the best off the ball cut in basketball is the player relocating to vacated space to maintain floor balance.


While I'm not disagreeing, Duke did have a really good 20 assists on 29 fg, while Florida had only 11 assists on 30 fg. Duke's offense got stagnant at times and Duval or Allen would penetrate too deep, but given it is game 8 on the season and the third game in four days, I get it...

[Ultrarunner]

I think it was Bilas that made the same comment that you made. It was something to the effect, the lane is too crowded for Grayson's drives.
I've noticed that the times Grayson ran the point, we seem to get better entry passes to our big guys. That's something Duval can learn from. Good post by the way. GoDuke!

Everyone keeps assuming that Grayson was driving to score and seemed to forget all the lobs for dunks earlier in the season. Defenses have learned to stay home on him. Once he adjusts and identifies when the defense will stay home, those short-armed shots will drop for points. If they leave, it's dunk time.

For those down on Grayson's D, he's covering 1.5 men (by shading a lot) on possessions when the freshmen are in. When Bags, Bolden, and Javin are in, he locks in tighter on his man.

[davekay1971]

Uh_no is disappointed in the Rebel Alliance for taking three attack runs to blow up the Death Star.

Honestly, though, the Rebel Alliance's attack strategy was mind-boggling. Have a bunch of x-wings flying around above the Death Star doing nothing but serving as target practice while you run 3 unguarded fighters down the trench at a time? How about having a couple fighters provide cover and shoot at Darth Vader and his wingmen from above and behind as they pursue the rebels down the trench. Uh_no has a point.

As for this team and these 3 games, however, I'm content that this is an extremely talented, but extremely young team and their growth is going to be both maddening and painful. Most of us who have watched K's teams throughout his tenure at Duke are used to watching smart, disciplined basketball. Of course, most of K's teams, until the last few years, have been teams where most of the guys on the court are juniors and seniors. Those teams, in November and December, were already experienced and consistent. This team, like 2015, is going to be maddeningly frustrating at times. Hopefully, like 2015, they will figure it out by March.

[fuse]

A few observations:

When Bagley gets his “angry/focused” face on, I find some comfort and reassurance that the game isn’t over until its over.

Seems like that face is coming earlier and earlier in the game.

I hope the team uses the December game schedule to learn to start fast, play from ahead, and develop the killer instinct to put and keep the game out of reach.

I suspect early ACC road games are going to be an adventure.


This team sure is a lot of fun to watch even if they are not easy on the heart.

[flyingdutchdevil]

A few observations:

When Bagley gets his “angry/focused” face on, I find some comfort and reassurance that the game isn’t over until its over.

Seems like that face is coming earlier and earlier in the game.

I hope the team uses the December game schedule to learn to start fast, play from ahead, and develop the killer instinct to put and keep the game out of reach.

I suspect early ACC road games are going to be an adventure.


This team sure is a lot of fun to watch even if they are not easy on the heart.

1) Bagley's "angry/focused" face does provide comfort and reassurance. But mainly because you know he's going to channel that energy and not woof or do something silly (other than that questionable offensive foul last night). Like you, I'm a fan of that face.

2) I hope the team uses December to focus on defense, defense, and more defense. This, "go zone" and "go M2M" isn't working. Focus on one and nail it down.

3) Let's see how the team does on Wednesday. My gut tells me this team will not get phased by away games. I'm not worried about the first portion of the ACC schedule. Hell, our first ACC game is more of a home game than an away game (this will be my fourth Duke-BC game. And the Duke crowd is louder and more visible than the BC crowd).

[Dr. Rosenrosen]

If everyone would just watch K's presser and note what he said about 9 games in 20 days with 5 on the road and little time for practice, then you'll maybe start to be able to manage early season expectations a but differently.

[CDu]

A few additional notes:

1. The rotation has changed, as has the backup PG. For the first several games of the season, Coach K seemed adamant about keeping Allen at SG. The presumptive rationale was that this would allow him to focus on his scoring. Well, that changed this past weekend. Allen is now firmly the backup PG, and has even played stretches of PG even with Duval on the floor (not many, but definitely some). The clear beneficiary to this point? O'Connell. He's now firmly the first (and last night only) perimeter player off the bench, backing up both Allen and Trent. It's not surprising - O'Connell had made impact plays in nearly every game, while his counterparts off the bench... haven't. The biggest loser in the strategic switch? Goldwire. He played just 6 minutes total this past weekend, including a DNP last night. It was coming: he simply doesn't have the offensive skills to stay on the floor, and he isn't strong enough defensively to offset that. 1-10 from the field, 1-7 from 3, and a 6:5 assist:turnover ratio. Combine that with O'Connell's energy, and it means no PT for Goldwire. I hope those that were considering betting heavily on Goldwire to outproduce Thornton decided against it.

2. Scoring is not a problem, defense still is. Coming into the season, some were concerned about our offense. This is probably because they (correctly) felt we couldn't shoot like previous Duke teams. Well, 8 games in, I think it's fair to say that offense is not a concern. We aren't playing at all like we have in previous years. The team is really working the ball inside to our two behemoths, and it is paying off. Not only that, we're rebounding on the offensive end like never before. It's really fun to watch Coach K put together a different offensive gameplan each season (and sometimes changing it midseason) based on his personnel. Really funny to think about the argument certain folks used to make about Duke's "system".

That being said, the defense is simply not good right now. And this, too, should not be surprising. We have a ton of length and talent, but this is the least experienced Duke team since presumably Duke's first year(s) playing basketball. We look confused at times, and our guys often look slow to react to straight-line drives. We've masked that somewhat by being a terrific rebounding and shotblocking team. But it's still definitely a work in progress. The positives are that we do show signs of competence. Actually, that's not right. We show intermittent signs of dominance, surrounded by large stretches of complete incompetence. Hopefully as these guys get used to each other and to the college game, we'll develop into an adequate defensive team. Because honestly, "adequate" might just be enough to win a national title.

3. While we have dominated the boards, it was a bit disheartening to not do so last night. Yes, we did ultimately win the rebounding battle (43 to 36). But UF is a TINY team. It shouldn't have been that close on the glass. Credit to UF for playing with tenacity, but we need to do a better job on the glass moving forward. That's our most glaring advantage when we step on the floor (well, aside from raw talent of course). We need to make that a reality every game. It's hard work, but dominating the glass has a way of demoralizing an opponent over time.

4. The backup bigs are doing their jobs admirably. All the press is going to Bagley, and deservedly so. But fairly quietly, Bolden and DeLaurier are filling in fantastically when needed. Carter had to sit for almost half of this game, and despite that the team didn't suffer at all in his absence. And the two are such a good pairing, providing whatever the team needs. Bolden is the better offensive weapon on the blocks, and the better big-body defender inside. DeLaurier provides the "Swiss army knife" option that can do a little of everything: defending smaller/quicker players, making plays in the passing lanes, soaring for blocks, etc. Loving the fact that we have both. It gives me great confidence in our ability to withstand foul trouble that can come with a focus on interior play.

[uh_no]

So I compiled crude numbers on our defensive efficiency and broke it into 3 categories:
1) after a missed shot
2) after a made basket (or other wise inbounds...incluing dead ball turnovers and timeouts)
3) after a live ball turnover

This was simply me looking through the play by play and counting number of points vs number of possessions of that type. Free throws counted, and points after OR were attributed to the same type as the start of the possession. My justification for that is twofold:
1) the fact that we gave up an OR may be affected by whether we were able to set up the defense properly, and if not, than it should equally affect both sets of data
2) i doubt it has a major impact, this is not scientific, and I'm lazy

So

after a made basket, florida had 39 possessions. In those possessions, they tallied 30 points, yielding a .77 efficiency

after a MISS, florida had 24 possessions. In those possessions, they tallied 42 points. yielding 1.75... woof.

after a live ball turnover, florida had 11 possessions. In those possessions, they tallied 12 points, for 1.09

So the outcome there is obvious. we are a point per possession worse on defense after we miss.

Other fun notes
-it was 10:09 into the game before florida DIDN'T score after a missed duke bucket.
-Florida only got three points twice after a make, as opposed to 7 times after a miss (and twice on TOs)
-Florida got no points after a miss only 6 times all game, as opposed to 25 times after a make

So, I didn't expect it to be such a big swing, but I feel somewhat validated in my guess earlier. When duke misses, it is a massive double whammy. Not only do we get 0 points, but we're donating a point on the other end. This means with how we're playing right now, any bad offense will almost assuredly lead to a big run by the other team.

I think the takeaways are
1) duke can play some darn good defense when they get setup
2) they need to get setup faster, and I suspect some of that is being freshman and will (and MUST) improve
3) while we will go through offensive spells, we're too good on offense, and too shaky on defense to be taking ill advised shots, given that each miss gives our opponent a point.

[FerryFor50]

I believe the comeback against Texas started when Duval was put on the bench, AOC came in and GA was moved to the point.

And also important to note is that Duke had TWO comebacks in the game against FL: one in the first half and one in the second half.

The first half comeback occurred while Phil knight was being interviewed and we went from 14 down to 7 up. The Phil Knight interview was an annoying distraction from the game (Watch Bilas and Shulman Kiss a**), but I believe Bolden and AOC were in for Carter and Duvall. Trent and GA sparked that comeback with a combined 4 threes. AOC had one and Bolden had at lease one monster rebound and a basket.

Someone please correct me if I'm wrong on any of this.

ETA: In no way am I even suggesting that Duval needs to be on the bench. He has been and will continue to be a vital starter on this team. He impresses every day. I was there to witness Johnny Dawkins' freshman year. He made some really bonehead plays, and I think Duval is in the same boat. Duval is a natural PG, unlike Johnny, and he has a gift for seeing the court and making the right pass. Sometimes, however, he does try to do too much. Obviously he isn't a scorer like Johnny, but does look like him in transition.

Just from the eye test (no stats to back this up) I do think he will challenge the Duke freshman assist record.

In the Texas game, Duval definitely needed to be on the bench. He was a liability at times with his decision making.

Against UF, he was way more steady and was the Duval we needed.

[Skitzle]

If everyone would just watch K's presser and note what he said about 9 games in 20 days with 5 on the road and little time for practice, then you'll maybe start to be able to manage early season expectations a but differently.

Link?

[flyingdutchdevil]

2. Scoring is not a problem, defense still is. Coming into the season, some were concerned about our offense. This is probably because they (correctly) felt we couldn't shoot like previous Duke teams. Well, 8 games in, I think it's fair to say that offense is not a concern. We aren't playing at all like we have in previous years. The team is really working the ball inside to our two behemoths, and it is paying off. Not only that, we're rebounding on the offensive end like never before. It's really fun to watch Coach K put together a different offensive gameplan each season (and sometimes changing it midseason) based on his personnel. Really funny to think about the argument certain folks used to make about Duke's "system".

That being said, the defense is simply not good right now. And this, too, should not be surprising. We have a ton of length and talent, but this is the least experienced Duke team since presumably Duke's first year(s) playing basketball. We look confused at times, and our guys often look slow to react to straight-line drives. We've masked that somewhat by being a terrific rebounding and shotblocking team. But it's still definitely a work in progress. The positives are that we do show signs of competence. Actually, that's not right. We show intermittent signs of dominance, surrounded by large stretches of complete incompetence. Hopefully as these guys get used to each other and to the college game, we'll develop into an adequate defensive team. Because honestly, "adequate" might just be enough to win a national title.

I don't think Duke fans can ever legitimately criticize Coach K's offensive strategy. In the OAD era, he's been an offensive genius. Defense? Yeah...let's just give that to Calipari. Hope I'm wrong - and I know there is plenty of season left - but Duke has the players and the health to be a good - if not great - defensive team. Let's hope we scratch our potential on D.

[azzefkram]

I am way too old for this. This is a really good team that has a very good chance of being special if things come together as hoped.

From the unsurprising news is unsurprising department, a young team can be wildly inconsistent. The alternating fist pumps and face palms must be quite a sight for my family to behold. About halfway through the second half I was worried that Duke was wasting too many possessions on both sides of the court to mount an effective comeback. I thought Coach K did a great job of utilizing his timeouts and judicious get your head right substitutions to get the team refocused.

My biggest takeaway from this weekend's games is that a lockdown D exists for this team. I don't know if it will appear with the consistency we all hope, but it does seem to be there.

Buckle up campers I think this is going to be a wild (and loads of fun) ride.

[FerryFor50]

after a made basket, florida had 39 possessions. In those possessions, they tallied 30 points, yielding a .77 efficiency

after a MISS, florida had 24 possessions. In those possessions, they tallied 42 points. yielding 1.75... woof.

after a live ball turnover, florida had 11 possessions. In those possessions, they tallied 12 points, for 1.09

So the outcome there is obvious. we are a point per possession worse on defense after we miss.


It wasn't just that Duke would miss shots; they'd miss bad shots, early in the shot clock, with the offense not even set up - often by the PG, who is usually the guy at the top of the key that has to be the first one back. That made getting back in transition even worse.

[DukeTrinity11]

Kinda off topic but would Duke retire the jersey of One and Done player if said player swept all the national player of the year awards and led the team to a NCAA championship if said player agreed to get his degree over the next following summers between the NBA season like Gerald Henderson? Or is being a graduating senior still a mandatory criterion?

[FerryFor50]

Kinda off topic but would Duke retire the jersey of One and Done player if said player swept all the national player of the year awards and led the team to a NCAA championship if said player agreed to get his degree over the next following summers between the NBA season like Gerald Henderson? Or is being a graduating senior still a mandatory criterion?

It's already retired.

http://acc.blogs.starnewsonline.com/files/2011/03/cameron-jerseys.jpg

[uh_no]

Kinda off topic but would Duke retire the jersey of One and Done player if said player swept all the national player of the year awards and led the team to a NCAA championship if said player agreed to get his degree over the next following summers between the NBA season like Gerald Henderson? Or is being a graduating senior still a mandatory criterion?

he can get his degree, and then be considered.

[MrPoon]

If everyone would just watch K's presser and note what he said about 9 games in 20 days with 5 on the road and little time for practice, then you'll maybe start to be able to manage early season expectations a but differently.

Including two top ten teams and another, Texas with some nice experience.
What is pushing my expectations upward is what I see on the court for stretches. This team plays five + min spurts that are amazing.

[azzefkram]

4. The backup bigs are doing their jobs admirably. All the press is going to Bagley, and deservedly so. But fairly quietly, Bolden and DeLaurier are filling in fantastically when needed. Carter had to sit for almost half of this game, and despite that the team didn't suffer at all in his absence. And the two are such a good pairing, providing whatever the team needs. Bolden is the better offensive weapon on the blocks, and the better big-body defender inside. DeLaurier provides the "Swiss army knife" option that can do a little of everything: defending smaller/quicker players, making plays in the passing lanes, soaring for blocks, etc. Loving the fact that we have both. It gives me great confidence in our ability to withstand foul trouble that can come with a focus on interior play.

Couldn't agree more. I was a bit surprised given Florida's team that we saw as much of Marques as we did. I expected a ton of Javin. For all the grief Marques gets from some corners around here, it seems that Coach K sees something that he likes.

[SkyBrickey]

I remember how frustrated I used to get when Duke played against Jamison at UNC and Joe Smith at Maryland. Those guys just got off the floor quicker and higher than everyone else. Bagley is going to make a lot of opposing fans feel the exact same way this year...

[Furniture]

I was going to post the same thing ... some of the posts in the in-game thread are downright embarrassing.

"Coach K is just a figurehead"? Damn, I wonder if some of these guys are Duke fans. Hauerwas, I wasn't going to call you out specifically, but you did come here to apologize. Still, after the Texas game, you pronounce this one over and proclaim that we're going to lose by 20 ...

Overall, reading the in-game thread made me think I was back on the Devil's Den (easily the most juvenile and ill-informed Duke message board).

Let's clean up out act. Duke has a great young team and we don't need to be giving up on them every time they struggle.

Full support from me. Being in chat in these types of games is almost unbearable. I don’t like the ‘thats Why we have chat’ excuse.

[jacone21]

...
I think the takeaways are
1) duke can play some darn good defense when they get setup
2) they need to get setup faster, and I suspect some of that is being freshman and will (and MUST) improve
3) while we will go through offensive spells, we're too good on offense, and too shaky on defense to be taking ill advised shots, given that each miss gives our opponent a point.

That's good analysis and fits with the eyeball test. Probably something very similar on K's agenda for practice.

[BandAlum83]

Full support from me. Being in chat in these types of games is almost unbearable. I don’t like the ‘thats Why we have chat’ excuse.

For the record:

I NEVER gave up on this game. When we were about to start our 2nd half run, I said to myself, we are about to go on a 17-4 run. We came close to that at 17-6 (I think), but did even more.

I played the part of moonpie for a couple of games in chat last year, but the negativity is too infuriating and distracting and frustrating for me. I can't stomach any in-game threads or chat. I can choose to surround myself with positive energy and do so.

Interesting how watch parties are so much more positive. Our fans don't tolerate negativity in person, why is it tolerated online?

I was at a watch party for THE Kentucky game, and I think everyone had hope as we lined up for the final play. Where is that confidence and positive energy?

[BandAlum83]

And another thing....

Great analysis on the defensive efficiency after makes, misses and turnovers!

To those saying that we got off to a slow start because of bad shots and poor decision making, I didn't see it that way at all.

To me, it seemed we were dominating inside and missing bunnies and tip ins. Just bad luck, or short arming a bit. We corrected that as the night went on. Bagley was only 50% from the field, that was a bit lower than he has been. I attribute it to just missing on a few tip-ins, and missing some very makeable layup, finger roll type of shots.

It is one of the reasons I wasn't worried when we went down twice.

[BandAlum83]

So I compiled crude numbers on our defensive efficiency and broke it into 3 categories:
1) after a missed shot
2) after a made basket (or other wise inbounds...incluing dead ball turnovers and timeouts)
3) after a live ball turnover

This was simply me looking through the play by play and counting number of points vs number of possessions of that type. Free throws counted, and points after OR were attributed to the same type as the start of the possession. My justification for that is twofold:
1) the fact that we gave up an OR may be affected by whether we were able to set up the defense properly, and if not, than it should equally affect both sets of data
2) i doubt it has a major impact, this is not scientific, and I'm lazy

So

after a made basket, florida had 39 possessions. In those possessions, they tallied 30 points, yielding a .77 efficiency

after a MISS, florida had 24 possessions. In those possessions, they tallied 42 points. yielding 1.75... woof.

after a live ball turnover, florida had 11 possessions. In those possessions, they tallied 12 points, for 1.09

So the outcome there is obvious. we are a point per possession worse on defense after we miss.

Other fun notes
-it was 10:09 into the game before florida DIDN'T score after a missed duke bucket.
-Florida only got three points twice after a make, as opposed to 7 times after a miss (and twice on TOs)
-Florida got no points after a miss only 6 times all game, as opposed to 25 times after a make

So, I didn't expect it to be such a big swing, but I feel somewhat validated in my guess earlier. When duke misses, it is a massive double whammy. Not only do we get 0 points, but we're donating a point on the other end. This means with how we're playing right now, any bad offense will almost assuredly lead to a big run by the other team.

I think the takeaways are
1) duke can play some darn good defense when they get setup
2) they need to get setup faster, and I suspect some of that is being freshman and will (and MUST) improve
3) while we will go through offensive spells, we're too good on offense, and too shaky on defense to be taking ill advised shots, given that each miss gives our opponent a point.

This really is great analysis and a much better and more productive use of posting time and effort! Nothing lazy about this work ;)

[Jeffrey]

And another thing...


Geez, I never knew my wife posted here.

[MrPoon]

Anyone know the team’s travel schedule? I’m guessing they depart Portland today. Do they head straight to Indiana? Probably. Going west to east is a real drain. Probably the soonest they get back to campus would be late tonight. Then to turn around and go to IU Wed. seems like a brutal travel schedule, much worse than March. I was at the OSU game years ago in Columbus where Duke won in Maui flew in and after 10 mins had no legs and ran into a buzz saw. Hopefully they are managing that piece of it too.

[sagegrouse]

Anyone know the team’s travel schedule? I’m guessing they depart Portland today. Do they head straight to Indiana? Probably. Going west to east is a real drain. Probably the soonest they get back to campus would be late tonight. Then to turn around and go to IU Wed. seems like a brutal travel schedule, much worse than March. I was at the OSU game years ago in Columbus where Duke won in Maui flew in and after 10 mins had no legs and ran into a buzz saw. Hopefully they are managing that piece of it too.

Third-hand via this Board: left Portland last night; planned to arrive in Durham at about 9AM (surely later); not going to Indiana until Wednesday AM. Classes on Monday (ha!) and Tuesday. Rough schedule, tough on academics.

[ehdg]

I'm probably remembering wrong but thought I'd heard that they where flying back to Durham early this morning and then leaving for Indiana or Wednesday.

[BandAlum83]

Anyone know the team’s travel schedule? I’m guessing they depart Portland today. Do they head straight to Indiana? Probably. Going west to east is a real drain. Probably the soonest they get back to campus would be late tonight. Then to turn around and go to IU Wed. seems like a brutal travel schedule, much worse than March. I was at the OSU game years ago in Columbus where Duke won in Maui flew in and after 10 mins had no legs and ran into a buzz saw. Hopefully they are managing that piece of it too.

Discussed at length here (http://forums.dukebasketballreport.com/forums/showthread.php?40832-Travel-Plans-to-IU):

http://forums.dukebasketballreport.com/forums/showthread.php?40832-Travel-Plans-to-IU

[Lar77]

Late to the party. Have been in a fog most of the morning (wonder why).

I still am trying to figure out what I saw.

MBIII is the most talented player I have seen at Duke (including Hill, Laettner, Irving, and Brand). Is he the best I've seen - not yet, but he is getting there and it is clear he works at getting better.

Iceman Award goes to Trent Jr. 4 free throws and one of the smartest plays after his steal by pulling back rather than dribble up court (which he started to do). Caught Florida off guard and ran off several seconds before they could foul him. I give him a semi pass for the reach in foul, since if he hadn't fouled the guy was blowing by for a layup.

As a disclaimer, I am a Grayson fan. He's a better defender than he gets credit for and he has become the vocal leader of this team. His assist to Duval and his knock down of the three made a big difference on our last run.

Anyone comment that we held Florida to 31 points in the second half? A team averaging over 100 PPG that just hung 53 on us.

This team has heart and seems to like to play as a team.

[wavedukefan70s]

We are young and a work in progress.
i am quite pleased so far.not surprised by boldens play off the bench.if Bagley doesnt come to duke he would be our starting F/c .by mid january we could be absolutely jaw dropping good.

[Billy Dat]

Some additional interesting tidbits from looking at the play-by-play descriptions:

-When we went down 17 with 10 to go, Trevon made a 3 and followed it with 2-2 FTs to cut the lead to 12, literally the defibrillator. His offensive rebound put back with 4 to go cut the lead to 8 and was another huge moment. Add his steal and feed to Trent for the foul and 2 free throws to take us from down 1 to up 1 with a minute to go and Tricky made some huge winning plays.

-Carter had 6 points in a less than 2 minute span, including 2 FTs, from 8:30-7 remaining that also kept us in the game.

Two guys having bad games moved on to the next play and were instrumental in this win. Fantastic.

[WHOneedsSOX]

I guess it's maybe an exaggeration, but I don't know that it's wrong, necessarily. He's not (probably) the next LBJ--I imagine that guy will be like obscenity--especially considering how post play is developing in the NBA. But right now MBIII seems like he'd be in the LBJ, Kobe, and KG class of players to go straight from HS to the NBA. That's something.

I mean, right now--as a high school senior--he's averaging 22.3 PPG and 11.3 RPG (I think ESPN is updated), and that includes his 10 minutes against MSU, where he still had 6 boards and only 4 points. He's just really good, and I'm pretty sure he should be in the NBA right now.

I definitely agree that he could have easily gone from junior year in high school to the pros and may very well be an all time great NBA player but LeBron is LeBron. Maybe you're right though about the LeBron comp. Hard to say how LeBron would've done in college but the guy dominated the NBA in year 1 straight out of high school.


The Gators appeared to suffer from fatigue i keeping up with both Duke's shooters and our big men, who only got stronger. Florida was obviously on the verge of a major upset, ased on their extrememly active the taking advantage of Dule's lapses.

The last five minutes of the game, when we kept them scoreless was just smart play -- and tough. Proud to be a support of the team.

Chiozza said after the game they were definitely fatigued from that double OT game against Butler a couple nights prior. The Florida coach shot that down but Chiozza said it was true.


Some additional interesting tidbits from looking at the play-by-play descriptions:

-When we went down 17 with 10 to go, Trevon made a 3 and followed it with 2-2 FTs to cut the lead to 12, literally the defibrillator. His offensive rebound put back with 4 to go cut the lead to 8 and was another huge moment. Add his steal and feed to Trent for the foul and 2 free throws to take us from down 1 to up 1 with a minute to go and Tricky made some huge winning plays.

-Carter had 6 points in a less than 2 minute span, including 2 FTs, from 8:30-7 remaining that also kept us in the game.

Two guys having bad games moved on to the next play and were instrumental in this win. Fantastic.

Up until the 10 minute mark I think Duval and DeLaurier were the only Duke players to have scored in the half (maybe Bagley had 2?). Duke had 8 points in the half in the first 10 minutes. That Duval 3 was also their first bucket in almost 4 minutes. He just needs to learn not to drive recklessly so often but he's been playing pretty well.

[duke79]

Late to the party. Have been in a fog most of the morning (wonder why).

I still am trying to figure out what I saw.

MBIII is the most talented player I have seen at Duke (including Hill, Laettner, Irving, and Brand). Is he the best I've seen - not yet, but he is getting there and it is clear he works at getting better.

Iceman Award goes to Trent Jr. 4 free throws and one of the smartest plays after his steal by pulling back rather than dribble up court (which he started to do). Caught Florida off guard and ran off several seconds before they could foul him. I give him a semi pass for the reach in foul, since if he hadn't fouled the guy was blowing by for a layup.

As a disclaimer, I am a Grayson fan. He's a better defender than he gets credit for and he has become the vocal leader of this team. His assist to Duval and his knock down of the three made a big difference on our last run.

Anyone comment that we held Florida to 31 points in the second half? A team averaging over 100 PPG that just hung 53 on us.

This team has heart and seems to like to play as a team.

Certainly at this stage of his college career, MB III is ONE of the best Duke players in the past 40 years of so (I never saw any Duke games prior to the mid-70's). He is a total, complete basketball stud. So athletic and a fantastic touch around the hoop. And I like his competitive fire. What a great get for the Duke program. Unfortunately, it will be one year stay but I hope he remains healthy and continues to improve.

[Olympic Fan]

Third-hand via this Board: left Portland last night; planned to arrive in Durham at about 9AM (surely later); not going to Indiana until Wednesday AM. Classes on Monday (ha!) and Tuesday. Rough schedule, tough on academics.

Just to confirm ... the team landed safely at RDU this morning at 9:45 am.

Not sure about today's schedule, but the players are expected to be in class Tuesday morning. The team will leave for Bloomington late Tuesday afternoon.

[jimsumner]

,literally the defibrillator.

Please. Don't get me started. :)

As an aside, I'm looking forward to Florida getting their big guy back and winning the SEC over Kentucky.

[bluenorth]

Just to confirm ... the team landed safely at RDU this morning at 9:45 am.

Not sure about today's schedule, but the players are expected to be in class Tuesday morning. The team will leave for Bloomington late Tuesday afternoon.

I believe that I saw another post that mentioned that the team travels by charter. That will help a bit, as at least they can spread out a bit and relax more than on a commercial flight. I wonder if the charter is a donation? Gonzaga travels that way, using private jets "loaned" by donors. I would imagine that a number of other teams do as well, especially when you're located a bit off the beaten path. Still, it's a brutal schedule to go coast to coast and only rest for two days. Practice might not be too intense before Wednesday.

[Hancock 4 Duke]

Couldn't agree more. I was a bit surprised given Florida's team that we saw as much of Marques as we did. I expected a ton of Javin. For all the grief Marques gets from some corners around here, it seems that Coach K sees something that he likes.

I feel a lot of criticisms of Bolden stem from his RBF and assumptions of an attitude problem which leads to hypercritical assessment of his play. I feel a lot more confident when he gets the ball in the low post this year than I did last year. I wish he’d bulk up a little more; he plays smaller than he is and he shouldn’t be getting overpowered and blown by on defense like he has tended to do, but he still has plenty of time to improve. His decision to stay at Duke at least shows he’s committed to contributing and not as sour emotionally as I previously assumed. I’m excited to see him and Jav compete because I am very happy to see Jav play the way he has been. He still looks like a goofy zebra when he dribbles but he’s made it work thus far.

[CajunDevil]

Some additional interesting tidbits from looking at the play-by-play descriptions:

-When we went down 17 with 10 to go, Trevon made a 3 and followed it with 2-2 FTs to cut the lead to 12, literally the defibrillator. His offensive rebound put back with 4 to go cut the lead to 8 and was another huge moment. Add his steal and feed to Trent for the foul and 2 free throws to take us from down 1 to up 1 with a minute to go and Tricky made some huge winning plays.

-Carter had 6 points in a less than 2 minute span, including 2 FTs, from 8:30-7 remaining that also kept us in the game.

Two guys having bad games moved on to the next play and were instrumental in this win. Fantastic.

Great points... in the post-game presser K touched on Duval's ability to make adjustments in the second half - even though this entire tourney he wasn't playing well (paraphrasing K). This speaks to what this kid is made of. He is a warrior who is not scared of the moment, and makes winning plays more than not.

[CajunDevil]

So I compiled crude numbers on our defensive efficiency and broke it into 3 categories:
1) after a missed shot
2) after a made basket (or other wise inbounds...incluing dead ball turnovers and timeouts)
3) after a live ball turnover

This was simply me looking through the play by play and counting number of points vs number of possessions of that type. Free throws counted, and points after OR were attributed to the same type as the start of the possession. My justification for that is twofold:
1) the fact that we gave up an OR may be affected by whether we were able to set up the defense properly, and if not, than it should equally affect both sets of data
2) i doubt it has a major impact, this is not scientific, and I'm lazy

So

after a made basket, florida had 39 possessions. In those possessions, they tallied 30 points, yielding a .77 efficiency

after a MISS, florida had 24 possessions. In those possessions, they tallied 42 points. yielding 1.75... woof.

after a live ball turnover, florida had 11 possessions. In those possessions, they tallied 12 points, for 1.09

So the outcome there is obvious. we are a point per possession worse on defense after we miss.

Other fun notes
-it was 10:09 into the game before florida DIDN'T score after a missed duke bucket.
-Florida only got three points twice after a make, as opposed to 7 times after a miss (and twice on TOs)
-Florida got no points after a miss only 6 times all game, as opposed to 25 times after a make

So, I didn't expect it to be such a big swing, but I feel somewhat validated in my guess earlier. When duke misses, it is a massive double whammy. Not only do we get 0 points, but we're donating a point on the other end. This means with how we're playing right now, any bad offense will almost assuredly lead to a big run by the other team.

I think the takeaways are
1) duke can play some darn good defense when they get setup
2) they need to get setup faster, and I suspect some of that is being freshman and will (and MUST) improve
3) while we will go through offensive spells, we're too good on offense, and too shaky on defense to be taking ill advised shots, given that each miss gives our opponent a point.


Good stuff here... Do you know if these a metric that is tracked by KenPom or someone else on a game-by-game basis? I'd be interested to see how other teams (previous Duke teams, and other teams) perform in these situations.

[tbyers11]

Good stuff here... Do you know if these a metric that is tracked by KenPom or someone else on a game-by-game basis? I'd be interested to see how other teams (previous Duke teams, and other teams) perform in these situations.

Sounds like the type of thing that Synergy Sports (https://corp.synergysportstech.com/stats-deep-dives) does. Luke Winn and other analytics-based writers cite their stuff all the time.

However, I don't know for sure. Their rates $20/month (vs $20/yr for KenPom) are much more expensive.

[KandG]

2) I hope the team uses December to focus on defense, defense, and more defense. This, "go zone" and "go M2M" isn't working. Focus on one and nail it down.



While I broadly agree with the idea that focusing on one defensive approach makes it easier for young players to internalize good habits, I can also see the other side: this is a unique Duke team with all its height and length (and youth) that might need multiple approaches on D depending on the opponent to keep Duke's best players on the floor. K also seems to have warmed up to the idea of switching to zone mid-game to give the opponents a different look and stall their momentum.

There was some idle chatter on social media during the game that K should abandon the two bigs and go with a smaller lineup when playing teams like Florida (Bagley at center, Trent at PF, O'Connell/Allen/Duval on the perimeter). But for all of Carter's difficulties this last weekend, he still looks like one of our best players and when he's engaged he's really good, has growing chemistry with Bagley, and puts a lot of pressure on the other team. For K to keep Carter (or Bolden) in along with MB III, I can see the zone making sense given how much teams like to seek the slower big out in the pick and roll and go at them with a smaller/quicker man when we're playing straight man to man D.

With that said, the zone was picked apart a little too easily in most of the recent games with a simple ball screen, communication was bad, and the number of corner 3s and offensive rebounds given up out of the zone has been inexcusable. I think we'll get better as the season gets along. Personally, I'd like to see the man to man D improve and be our primary option, but I am all for a good zone as a reliable fallback option with certain lineups and against certain opponents.

[CajunDevil]

Sounds like the type of thing that Synergy Sports (https://corp.synergysportstech.com/stats-deep-dives) does. Luke Winn and other analytics-based writers cite their stuff all the time.

However, I don't know for sure. Their rates $20/month (vs $20/yr for KenPom) are much more expensive.


Excellent, thanks for the info!

[AtlDuke72]

I feel a lot of criticisms of Bolden stem from his RBF and assumptions of an attitude problem which leads to hypercritical assessment of his play. I feel a lot more confident when he gets the ball in the low post this year than I did last year. I wish he’d bulk up a little more; he plays smaller than he is and he shouldn’t be getting overpowered and blown by on defense like he has tended to do, but he still has plenty of time to improve. His decision to stay at Duke at least shows he’s committed to contributing and not as sour emotionally as I previously assumed. I’m excited to see him and Jav compete because I am very happy to see Jav play the way he has been. He still looks like a goofy zebra when he dribbles but he’s made it work thus far.

I do not expect a lot out of Bolden this year but glad that he can contribute at times. Not sure what RBF means but the stat sheet shows that he is not getting much done on the floor. It just takes some guys longer than others especially big guys. Same with Javin, but in his case more because Bagley and Carter are so good and I don't see the team playing with three big guys on the floor very often. Carter is getting some criticism but it seems that he gets almost every big rebound at the end of the games. He also held off Michigan States front line without Bagley which was pretty incredible. What I hope is that Bolden and Javin will stay in school. They are going to get lost in the pros the way they play now. Based on the size of the recruits coming in both will be extremely important next year to the team if they stay and it will give them both a chance to develop their games.

[nocilla]

I may have missed it but did they do an all-tournament team for Duke's bracket?

They showed one for the other bracket during Duke's game, maybe at halftime.

I'm pretty certain Bagley won MVP and I think he was holding that trophy in the pictures. But I am curious who would make up the rest of the team.

[BandAlum83]

I may have missed it but did they do an all-tournament team for Duke's bracket?

They showed one for the other bracket during Duke's game, maybe at halftime.

I'm pretty certain Bagley won MVP and I think he was holding that trophy in the pictures. But I am curious who would make up the rest of the team.

Johnathan Williams (Gonzaga) was selected to the PK80’s Motion Bracket All-Tournament team.

joined on the All-Tournament team by
Duke’s Marvin Bagley III (MVP) and
Florida’s Jalen Hudson, KeVaughn Allen and Chris Chiozza.

http://www.spokesman.com/stories/2017/nov/27/gonzagas-johnathan-williams-named-to-all-tournamen/

[duke74]

Just to confirm ... the team landed safely at RDU this morning at 9:45 am.

Not sure about today's schedule, but the players are expected to be in class Tuesday morning. The team will leave for Bloomington late Tuesday afternoon.

Only one of the many reasons I love this program

[rsvman]

While I broadly agree with the idea that focusing on one defensive approach makes it easier for young players to internalize good habits, I can also see the other side: this is a unique Duke team with all its height and length (and youth) that might need multiple approaches on D depending on the opponent to keep Duke's best players on the floor. K also seems to have warmed up to the idea of switching to zone mid-game to give the opponents a different look and stall their momentum.

There was some idle chatter on social media during the game that K should abandon the two bigs and go with a smaller lineup when playing teams like Florida (Bagley at center, Trent at PF, O'Connell/Allen/Duval on the perimeter). But for all of Carter's difficulties this last weekend, he still looks like one of our best players and when he's engaged he's really good, has growing chemistry with Bagley, and puts a lot of pressure on the other team. For K to keep Carter (or Bolden) in along with MB III, I can see the zone making sense given how much teams like to seek the slower big out in the pick and roll and go at them with a smaller/quicker man when we're playing straight man to man D.

With that said, the zone was picked apart a little too easily in most of the recent games with a simple ball screen, communication was bad, and the number of corner 3s and offensive rebounds given up out of the zone has been inexcusable. I think we'll get better as the season gets along. Personally, I'd like to see the man to man D improve and be our primary option, but I am all for a good zone as a reliable fallback option with certain lineups and against certain opponents.

This.

I think it would be a huge mistake to abandon the zone entirely at this point, as there may be times when it is needed, and it has been very effective at times (did people already forget the Michigan State game? Anybody think we could've won that game without Bagley if we didn't utilize the zone?).

I actually believe it helped us quite a bit in the first half of last night's game, too. There came a point in the game when we just absolutely HAD to slow them down a bit. The zone accomplished that.

I think K will be hoping to hone the man-to-man to a point where it can be used almost exclusively by the time the end of the season approaches, but there still might be utility to the zone. Maybe in an important game we have major foul trouble, for example. Or we just need to tap the brakes on a quick, athletic team, like we did with Florida last night. Or we meet a team that doesn't shoot well from the outside, like Michigan State. Maybe sometimes it will be useful for allowing our players to catch their breath a little (we needed that, at least a bit, in last night's game). Also, I think sometimes it helps just to be able to show a different look, even if it is only for a few possessions.

The season is still young, and the players have time to develop the man-to-man even while they are still using the zone when it is prudent to do so. Over the past few seasons, Coach K has shown that he knows when and how to utilize it to our best advantage.

[FerryFor50]

This.

I think it would be a huge mistake to abandon the zone entirely at this point, as there may be times when it is needed, and it has been very effective at times (did people already forget the Michigan State game? Anybody think we could've won that game without Bagley if we didn't utilize the zone?).

I actually believe it helped us quite a bit in the first half of last night's game, too. There came a point in the game when we just absolutely HAD to slow them down a bit. The zone accomplished that.

I think K will be hoping to hone the man-to-man to a point where it can be used almost exclusively by the time the end of the season approaches, but there still might be utility to the zone. Maybe in an important game we have major foul trouble, for example. Or we just need to tap the brakes on a quick, athletic team, like we did with Florida last night. Or we meet a team that doesn't shoot well from the outside, like Michigan State. Maybe sometimes it will be useful for allowing our players to catch their breath a little (we needed that, at least a bit, in last night's game). Also, I think sometimes it helps just to be able to show a different look, even if it is only for a few possessions.

The season is still young, and the players have time to develop the man-to-man even while they are still using the zone when it is prudent to do so. Over the past few seasons, Coach K has shown that he knows when and how to utilize it to our best advantage.

Going to the zone in the first half helped slow the pace and got Duke back into the game the first time. It's an effective weapon to have.

[Hancock 4 Duke]

I do not expect a lot out of Bolden this year but glad that he can contribute at times. Not sure what RBF means but the stat sheet shows that he is not getting much done on the floor. It just takes some guys longer than others especially big guys. Same with Javin, but in his case more because Bagley and Carter are so good and I don't see the team playing with three big guys on the floor very often. Carter is getting some criticism but it seems that he gets almost every big rebound at the end of the games. He also held off Michigan States front line without Bagley which was pretty incredible. What I hope is that Bolden and Javin will stay in school. They are going to get lost in the pros the way they play now. Based on the size of the recruits coming in both will be extremely important next year to the team if they stay and it will give them both a chance to develop their games.
Ah, sorry about that, RBF = rearing b**** face, in regards to his constant look of dissatisfaction. I don’t know what’s going through Bolden’s mind, and I consider him a wild card as far as being a returner for Duke next year, but I don’t see any indication that Javin would be gone to the pros after this year, do you?

[CDu]

I'll add that I take back what I previously had said about Goodman's assessment of Duval. If what he and scouts saw in the preseason was what he showed this past weekend (or worse), I can sort of see why he'd report that. His play wasn't that of a clear-cut lottery pick this past weekend. I think he'll ultimately be a lottery pick this year, but it is clear that he's still fairly rough around the edges.

He has all of the physical tools to dominate (floor vision, explosiveness, ball-handling, passing). The key for him is figuring out the decision-making aspect. At times, he's had the feel for the game flow down pat, and in those games (like the MSU game for example) he's looked amazing. At others, he's looked a bit lost in the PG role.

In some ways, I think he's a bit miscast on this team. He'd look better on a team with better shooters, where his one clearest weakness (shooting) wouldn't be so exposed and his strengths (dribble penetration) would be more accentuated. On this team, which lacks shooters and space to drive, he's a bit hampered. That being said, it offers him a really good chance to improve his weaknesses, moreso than playing on a team tailor-made for his skills would allow. I hope he gets it figured out. If he does (and if we stay healthy), we're going to be nearly impossible to beat.

[CDu]

Going to the zone in the first half helped slow the pace and got Duke back into the game the first time. It's an effective weapon to have.

I agree. I think it's especially useful with this group, given the length and athleticism of DeLaurier and Duval. Those two guys are tailor made for a zone.

It's also useful in that so many of our players aren't good man-to-man defenders right now. I don't think we have ANY good on-ball defenders at the moment. At least not consistently good ones. DeLaurier is energetic and great at tracking down players from behind, but he gets beat off the dribble fairly easily and doesn't have strength to bang inside. Duval has the physical tools, but he seems a step slow in reacting when his man drives to the basket. O'Connell isn't good at it. Allen is better than O'Connell, but still not good at it. Same for Bagley, though I think he has the potential to be great at it. Carter is great against other bigs, but abysmal when caught in a switch onto a guard. Ditto Bolden. Trent has the instincts and tenacity, but still makes too many freshman mistakes.

I think having both defenses gives us some measure of gameplan advantage. When things aren't working with one defense, we can switch to the other to change the rhythm of the game. And because we play both, teams have to prepare to attack both, which means more work for them.

It does mean we likely won't be great at either. But I doubt we would ever be great at either this year, as our team's history in the one-and-done era suggests we're unlikely to have a great defense.

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

Ah, sorry about that, RBF = rearing b**** face, in regards to his constant look of dissatisfaction. I don’t know what’s going through Bolden’s mind, and I consider him a wild card as far as being a returner for Duke next year, but I don’t see any indication that Javin would be gone to the pros after this year, do you?

Bolden seems to be a much more agile player the last few games. His confidence is kicking in, and I no longer brace for the whistle the moment he steps on the court.

Last year, when he made an appearance I would flinch in anticipation. He seems much more comfortable now. As a consequence, so am I.

[killerleft]

i hear their coach comes from good stock.

And, he may be working his way onto the radar as Duke's next head coach. May take awhile (I hope).:)

[DangerDevil]

Johnathan Williams (Gonzaga) was selected to the PK80’s Motion Bracket All-Tournament team.

joined on the All-Tournament team by
Duke’s Marvin Bagley III (MVP) and
Florida’s Jalen Hudson, KeVaughn Allen and Chris Chiozza.

http://www.spokesman.com/stories/2017/nov/27/gonzagas-johnathan-williams-named-to-all-tournamen/

Thanks, I had the same question and could only find Bagley was named the MVP.

I don’t know who I would have substituted but was surprised that only one Blue Devil made the team. I guess that speaks to how dominate Bagley was.

[DangerDevil]

And, he may be working his way onto the radar as Duke's next head coach. May take awhile (I hope).:)

I know he’s not part of the Coach K Coaching Tree but I guess he is part of the extended Duke Family.

[BD80]

... But greatly impressed by Mike White. That dude can coach.

Will he be the one to challenge Coach K's career wins? Young coach, power program. Easy place to recruit


For all the words I said, and worse, for not believing in these guys. Holy freakin crap how did we just do that? Two steals under 1:00 and hitting free throws? Just amazed at their inability to give up. Wow. that was special.

Not quite an apology. How about not spewing such crap again. It is irritating to many, why do it?


... Speaking of nerd things, very surprised we didn't go 2-for-1 at the end. obviously the defense pulled through, but being in a position to have a guaranteed last possession is huge. Quite possible that with as spotty as the team's O had been, that trying to speed up might have lowered the efficiency enough to make it a less viable strat....given we got a shot clock violation anyway, we probably should have done it.

Going 2 for 1 in that situation would have required too quick of an initial shot and would have given UF what they most wanted - a chance to get the ball back as quickly as possible.



Really fond of this TEAM. To my eye they are improving every possession.

Duval already is a very good point guard, he could be GREAT.

Trent is a gamer. Hard to believe he is a freshman.

It is no surprise that the freshmen struggle when playing EXPERIENCED players - lets see how they fare with 30 more games under their belts.

No surprise that the FRESHMEN are struggling with M2M defense. They had NEVER been coached to play D at this level, never practiced D at this level. They are still getting used to the basic concepts of positioning, let alone being able to react instinctively as quickly as is required to play elite M2M. Even the slightest hesitation can make it look like incompetence. The M2M won the game on the last 2 possessions, and was effective the last 10 minutes of the game. This team will be playing very good defense by the end of the year, it may be playing dominant defense come tournament time.

I see Duval and Trent locking down opposing guards, making them cry.

[CDu]

Thanks, I had the same question and could only find Bagley was named the MVP.

I don’t know who I would have substituted but was surprised that only one Blue Devil made the team. I guess that speaks to how dominate Bagley was.

And how varied our contributions were. All the other guys who had big games (Duval, Carter, Trent) also had clunkers. Allen was fairly consistent (12-14 ppg, 5-9 apg), but maybe just a tier below the first team guys.

That being said, I don't think KeVaughn Allen should have made the team. He was good, but his numbers were a bit inflated by playing a double-OT game. And even still, his line 16.3 ppg, 3 apg, 3 rpg) weren't really more impressive than our Allen's (13.3 ppg, 7 apg, 3 rpg). I'd have put any of Grayson Allen, Osetkowski, or Bamba in over KeVaughn Allen.

[Hancock 4 Duke]

Not quite an apology. How about not spewing such crap again. It is irritating to many, why do it?




I don’t think an apology is in order for being pessimistic when down 17 with 10 minutes to go. Especially with a squad of freshmen...I can’t say my outlook wasn’t bleak each time we’ve been down double digits in the second half of a game. We are extremely lucky to have a team so resilient and able to fight back when they are so inexperienced at the college level, however a sample size of 3-4 games isn’t big enough for me to trust that’ll happen the next time we are down.

[dukefan_828]

Well I bailed when down by 17 in the second half. .

NEVER QUIT MY FRIEND... "Your never the underdog when you play at duke" - Quinn Cook. GUTS this team has "IT"

[sagegrouse]

Johnathan Williams (Gonzaga) was selected to the PK80’s Motion Bracket All-Tournament team.

joined on the All-Tournament team by
Duke’s Marvin Bagley III (MVP) and
Florida’s Jalen Hudson, KeVaughn Allen and Chris Chiozza.

http://www.spokesman.com/stories/2017/nov/27/gonzagas-johnathan-williams-named-to-all-tournamen/

I wonder if the assembled scribes voted mid-way through the second half, when it appeared Florida would win. There might even have been a "conditional MVP" ballot: "If Florida wins, __________. If Duke wins, _________."

I think, voting at the end, Grayson might have made first team, but the Gators were clearly meritorious.

[WVDUKEFAN]

I watched this game twice. These kids still have a lot to learn. That's a given. One thing they are learning is how to win. I don't know what the rest of the forum members believe, but I saw a team that didn't get rattled. I would love to see the defense get more consistent. This team has the potential to do great things.

[Pghdukie]

I agree with BD80.

[CDu]

I don’t think an apology is in order for being pessimistic when down 17 with 10 minutes to go. Especially with a squad of freshmen...I can’t say my outlook wasn’t bleak each time we’ve been down double digits in the second half of a game. We are extremely lucky to have a team so resilient and able to fight back when they are so inexperienced at the college level, however a sample size of 3-4 games isn’t big enough for me to trust that’ll happen the next time we are down.

It isn’t so much about having negative feelings. That is natural. I mean, nobody sane was feeling particularly good about how we were playing at that point.

What doesn’t sit well with folks on this board is the POSTING of negative, defeatest stuff in the in-game threads. That is what is frowned upon in these boards. And then when we are fortunate to win in comeback fashion, it makes one look silly.

If one simply MUST let everyone know that he/she has given up, do so in the negative nelly posts for the live chat. (sorry live chatters). That way it “goes away” afterwards. Or, better yet, email it to yourself. ;)

[BD80]

... If one simply MUST let everyone know that he/she has given up, ... email it to yourself. ;)

That is illegal in several southern states.

[curtis325]

It isn’t so much about having negative feelings. That is natural. I mean, nobody sane was feeling particularly good about how we were playing at that point.

What doesn’t sit well with folks on this board is the POSTING of negative, defeatest stuff in the in-game threads. That is what is frowned upon in these boards. And then when we are fortunate to win in comeback fashion, it makes one look silly.

If one simply MUST let everyone know that he/she has given up, do so in the negative nelly posts for the live chat. (sorry live chatters). That way it “goes away” afterwards. Or, better yet, email it to yourself. ;)

Last season's horrible live chats taught me to avoid that particular dumpster fire. I briefly visited again this season and regretted it.

YMMV.

[dyedwab]

1. Did we wear them out?. I think that one of the things that happened in this game, and, I think happened in the other tournament games and even against Michigan State, is that our combination of really big guys who run the floor and our physicality inside seemed to wear out FL. Too early in the season for a definite read, but I think this team as constructed may physically tire out teams in a way that we haven't seen in a long time.

2. First you win, then you get good. Michael Wilbon of PTI says this all the time and I think it holds true for this team, especially given the schedule we've played. Our team will remember & our coaching staff can remind them of how they came back against good teams in the 2nd half. And our coaching staff can certainly remind them of the poor play that led them to being down 17 half way through the second half.

3. Florida is good But the commentators were handing them the national title through most of the game last night. At one point, event though we weren't playing that well, I noticed that we were only down three. At that time, I thought that, even if we lost, man, we're gonna be good.

4. This is one of most athletic teams we've ever had And it has allowed us to overcome freshman mistakes on both sides of the court so far this year. I'm imagining how good we can be when our freshman know more about what they are doing.

[CDu]

Last season's horrible live chats taught me to avoid that particular dumpster fire. I briefly visited again this season and regretted it.

YMMV.

Yep. I used to participate. But between the terping and the negative nancies, I just can't do it anymore.

[Wander]

Yep. I used to participate. But between the terping and the negative nancies, I just can't do it anymore.

Not to mention we have someone who (no offense moonpie) intentionally spoils every single basket a few seconds in advance.

[-jk]

Not to mention we have someone who (no offense moonpie) intentionally spoils every single basket a few seconds in advance.

He also seems to know we're going to win a good hour before the game's over!

-jk

[gam7]

We good with our straight up end-of-game strategy? With our rebounding strength, I think fouling would be a good approach for this team. (Apologies if this has been covered elsewhere, but I didn't see it.)

And if we go by the principle of not wanting to give away points, how does the Zoubek strategy jive with that?

Maybe the best strategy is to just not be predictable...

[Channing]

I used to be one of the negative nancies. Being in the chat made it to easy to stream-of-conscience thoughts through the game. Have largely give it up and enjoy the game much more (and am sure chat participants are grateful for my absence)

[UrinalCake]

It isn’t so much about having negative feelings. That is natural. I mean, nobody sane was feeling particularly good about how we were playing at that point.

What doesn’t sit well with folks on this board is the POSTING of negative, defeatest stuff in the in-game threads. That is what is frowned upon in these boards. And then when we are fortunate to win in comeback fashion, it makes one look silly.

It's not a shame to be have felt disappointed when the team wasn't playing well. For me, I don't even mind people posting negative stuff, like "our defense is bad" or "we need to do XX better." Those things were true statements at the time, and the fact that we won the game doesn't make those things untrue.

What gets me are the gross exaggerations ("this is the worst team I've ever seen in my life"), the personal attacks on the players ("XX is a terrible human being and doesn't deserve play for Duke"), the grandiose statements meant to attract attention ("Coach K should retire, he has no idea what he's doing") and the failure to keep things in perspective. But I mean it's a free country, so people can post what they want. My two cents anyways.

[dukelifer]

NEVER QUIT MY FRIEND... "Your never the underdog when you play at duke" - Quinn Cook. GUTS this team has "IT"

It was a late night and I did not think Duke had another big comeback with 10 minutes to play. What they did was remarkable. I am pretty sure if I had watched they would not have pulled it off- as you can change the event simply by observing- I think there is a cat out there that knows I am right.

[MarkD83]

It was a late night and I did not think Duke had another big comeback with 10 minutes to play. What they did was remarkable. I am pretty sure if I had watched they would not have pulled it off- as you can change the event simply by observing- I think there is a cat out there that knows I am right.

Only if the cat is still alive

[FerryFor50]

1. Did we wear them out?. I think that one of the things that happened in this game, and, I think happened in the other tournament games and even against Michigan State, is that our combination of really big guys who run the floor and our physicality inside seemed to wear out FL. Too early in the season for a definite read, but I think this team as constructed may physically tire out teams in a way that we haven't seen in a long time.


I think it was a combination of Duke and the double OT game UF had late on Sat night against Gonzaga.

[CDu]

I think it was a combination of Duke and the double OT game UF had late on Sat night against Gonzaga.

Well, the double-OT game was Friday night, so they did still have about 45 hours of recovery time. If fatigue was a factor, I would doubt it had much to do with the prior game.

[FerryFor50]

Well, the double-OT game was Friday night, so they did still have about 45 hours of recovery time. If fatigue was a factor, I would doubt it had much to do with the prior game.

Chiozza said it affected them.

http://floridagators.com/news/2017/11/27/chris-harry-gators-let-pk80-title-slip-away-in-late-game-collapse-vs-no-1-duke.aspx


Chris Chiozza was asked if fatigue played a part in the ugly and maddening manner his Florida basketball team let what would have been not just a gold-star win, but an historic one slowly bleed away Sunday night. Fair question. Forty-eight hours earlier, the Gators had waged a double-overtime war before surviving a shootout against 17th-ranked Gonzaga to earn a date with No. 1 Duke.

"Definitely," Chiozza said after the Gators blew a 10-point lead with four minutes left in falling 87-84 to the Blue Devils in the Motion bracket title game of the PK80 Invitational before 15,365 at Moda Center. "You could see in the second half, we just didn't have enough gas to finish it off."

Coach Smith disagreed:


fter Chiozza left the interview room, a similar question was lobbed at UF coach Mike White. Specifically, if he agreed with his senior point guard's assessment.

"No I don't, and we're going to have a conversation about that, because I think fatigue played a factor for both teams," White said. "They were tired, too."

[Ultrarunner]

I think it was a combination of Duke and the double OT game UF had late on Sat night against Gonzaga.

Just a reminder - we played OT Friday, too.

[Bluedog]

Chiozza said it affected them.

http://floridagators.com/news/2017/11/27/chris-harry-gators-let-pk80-title-slip-away-in-late-game-collapse-vs-no-1-duke.aspx



Coach Smith disagreed:

I think college kids sometimes just agree with what is asked from media members. It was somewhat of a leading question. Coaches, on the other hand, are more experienced with those sorts of things. I wouldn't personally read too much into it.

[sagegrouse]

1. Did we wear them out?. I think that one of the things that happened in this game, and, I think happened in the other tournament games and even against Michigan State, is that our combination of really big guys who run the floor and our physicality inside seemed to wear out FL. Too early in the season for a definite read, but I think this team as constructed may physically tire out teams in a way that we haven't seen in a long time.

2. First you win, then you get good. Michael Wilbon of PTI says this all the time and I think it holds true for this team, especially given the schedule we've played. Our team will remember & our coaching staff can remind them of how they came back against good teams in the 2nd half. And our coaching staff can certainly remind them of the poor play that led them to being down 17 half way through the second half.

3. Florida is good But the commentators were handing them the national title through most of the game last night. At one point, event though we weren't playing that well, I noticed that we were only down three. At that time, I thought that, even if we lost, man, we're gonna be good.

4. This is one of most athletic teams we've ever had And it has allowed us to overcome freshman mistakes on both sides of the court so far this year. I'm imagining how good we can be when our freshman know more about what they are doing.

A vote here for #1. I thought Florida was dog-tired at the end of the game. The Gators had played so well for the first 30+ minutes, but they were up against bigger players who were at least as skilled.

[MChambers]

A vote here for #1. I thought Florida was dog-tired at the end of the game. The Gators had played so well for the first 30+ minutes, but they were up against bigger players who were at least as skilled.
Midway through the second half, when Florida was stretching out its lead, I thought Duke looked very tired, even Bagley. Somehow they got more energy for the last 8 minutes or so.

[Jeffrey]

Chiozza said it affected them.

http://floridagators.com/news/2017/11/27/chris-harry-gators-let-pk80-title-slip-away-in-late-game-collapse-vs-no-1-duke.aspx

Coach Smith disagreed:

Nolan should have disagreed, it's B.S.

In all seriousness, it's definitely a coachable opportunity. A new perspective would serve the young man better.

[sammy3469]

Midway through the second half, when Florida was stretching out its lead, I thought Duke looked very tired, even Bagley. Somehow they got more energy for the last 8 minutes or so.

It was only in that last 8 minutes that Duke had any offensive rebounds at all (the run in the first half was based entirely off of good shooting) and even then that was almost entirely Bagley. For whatever reason Carter never really got in the game (stats-wise it was his worst game of the year)

FWIW, I really loved the picking motion White had Florida running where they'd get Bagley on a guard on the initial pick and then have that guard then run a pick with Carter's man. Putting Bagley and Carter into the pick and roll opened up the lane for them, gave the two of them fits, and made defensive rebounding an issue at times.

Having said that, I don't know if that's a strategy that will work against Duke in a month as I think Carter and Bagley are good mobile defenders that should be able to ice the pick if it comes to that. I think ultimately Duval is athletic enough to get over most picks which will really help. Duval makes enough small mental lapses right now that his balance is off when that initial pick comes (i.e. if the pick is set right, he's slightly out of position) so he gets caught which necessitates the switch. He's athletic enough that with coaching that shouldn't be happening as much February.

[sagegrouse]

Nolan should have disagreed, it's B.S.

In all seriousness, it's definitely a coachable opportunity. A new perspective would serve the young man better.


Coach Smith disagreed:

After Chiozza left the interview room, a similar question was lobbed at UF coach Mike White. Specifically, if he agreed with his senior point guard's assessment.

"No I don't, and we're going to have a conversation about that, because I think fatigue played a factor for both teams," White said. "They were tired, too."


Perhaps Chiozza and Mike White are both right.

I am reminded of Vince Lombardi's dictum: "Fatigue makes cowards of us all." He isn't, or wasn't, criticizing players but making the point that giving in when you are totally beat is unacceptable.

[CDu]

Chiozza said it affected them.

http://floridagators.com/news/2017/11/27/chris-harry-gators-let-pk80-title-slip-away-in-late-game-collapse-vs-no-1-duke.aspx

Coach Smith disagreed:

I'm not saying they weren't tired. I'm sure they were. I'm just saying that I don't think it's reasonable to attribute that fatigue to having played an additional 10 minutes of bball 45 hours earlier.

Had it been the night before, maybe I buy that argument. But they had almost two full days (with no travel) to recover from the extra 10 minutes of bball.

[moonpie23]

Not to mention we have someone who (no offense moonpie) intentionally spoils every single basket a few seconds in advance.

because i'm on a quicker feed, i post when things happen.....I will refrain from "spoiling every single basket" with my responses, and just wait until you guys have "up-dated" your info....

i love the chat community, but i don't want to be a drag....

[flyingdutchdevil]

I'm not saying they weren't tired. I'm sure they were. I'm just saying that I don't think it's reasonable to attribute that fatigue to having played an additional 10 minutes of bball 45 hours earlier.

Had it been the night before, maybe I buy that argument. But they had almost two full days (with no travel) to recover from the extra 10 minutes of bball.

Also, everyone is in the same boat. Duke played in OT 2 hours before the Gators did on Sat night.

I get that Duke players are tired, Gator players are tired, etc. It's up to the players and the coach to maintain that energy throughout the game. No one had an advantage (I take that back. Whoever has Bags has an advantage. I'm still astonished by what he did).

[DukieInKansas]

because i'm on a quicker feed, i post when things happen....I will refrain from "spoiling every single basket" with my responses, and just wait until you guys have "up-dated" your info...

i love the chat community, but i don't want to be a drag...

Sometimes, I find security in knowing that they are going to make a basket. If it gets too annoying to me, I log out and check back in later. That isn't directed at you specifically because I am often only in CTN chat and not in DBR chat simultaneously.

[OZ]

Also, everyone is in the same boat. Duke played in OT 2 hours before the Gators did on Sat night.
I get that Duke players are tired, Gator players are tired, etc. It's up to the players and the coach to maintain that energy throughout the game. No one had an advantage (I take that back. Whoever has Bags has an advantage. I'm still astonished by what he did).

Heck, I was tired. After watching those two games, I was exhausted.

[flyingdutchdevil]

Heck, I was tired. After watching those two games, I was exhausted.

That's not your fault. That's the geniuses at ESPN showing two East Coast teams play at 12am.

[CajunDevil]

I'm not saying they weren't tired. I'm sure they were. I'm just saying that I don't think it's reasonable to attribute that fatigue to having played an additional 10 minutes of bball 45 hours earlier.

Had it been the night before, maybe I buy that argument. But they had almost two full days (with no travel) to recover from the extra 10 minutes of bball.


Our energy level fell - Grayson had a clumsy travelling call, Marvin turned the ball over, and Duval had a TO on 3 of 4 possessions. We looked tired. But, once Duval hit the corner three - the psychological boost of seeing the ball go through the net, and by the by Duke's poorest shooter on the floor at that - seemed to lift the entire team's energy. On the flip-side, at half Mike White mentioned fatigue and tired legs during his on-court interview. I think after the game he was simply not trying to make an excuse for not winning - but they were worn out.

Why were they worn out? I'd suggest that it was playing against a huge Duke team, and most talented team in the country, after a grueling weekend - combined with the psychology of not seeing their shots not go down during last few minutes and feeling the pressure of the moment.

[flyingdutchdevil]

Our energy level fell - Grayson had a clumsy travelling call, Marvin turned the ball over, and Duval had a TO on 3 of 4 possessions. We looked tired. But, once Duval hit the corner three - the psychological boost of seeing the ball go through the net, and by the by Duke's poorest shooter on the floor at that - seemed to lift the entire team's energy. On the flip-side, at half Mike White mentioned fatigue and tired legs during his on-court interview. I think after the game he was simply not trying to make an excuse for not winning - but they were worn out.

Why were they worn out? I'd suggest that it was playing against a huge Duke team, and most talented team in the country, after a grueling weekend - combined with the psychology of not seeing their shots not go down during last few minutes and feeling the pressure of the moment.

Given that Duval had 2 TOs for the game, I'm not sure I believe your stat...

[OZ]

Also, everyone is in the same boat. Duke played in OT 2 hours before the Gators did on Sat night.

I get that Duke players are tired, Gator players are tired, etc. It's up to the players and the coach to maintain that energy throughout the game

Just another case of the GOAT outcoaching the opposition. Clearly, in all three of these games, K had his players saving their energy, waiting until the last few minutes to turn it on. (And we thought they were just playing poorly). It wasn't Duke's fault, the other three teams came out like gang busters and used up all their energy.

[Jeffrey]

Perhaps Chiozza and Mike White are both right.



IMO, Coach White was right to disagree with Chiozza and have a conversation about his perspective. It appears Coach White considered it a coachable opportunity and thought a new perspective would serve the young man better. I completely agree and was very impressed by Coach White's response.

[MChambers]

It was only in that last 8 minutes that Duke had any offensive rebounds at all (the run in the first half was based entirely off of good shooting) and even then that was almost entirely Bagley. For whatever reason Carter never really got in the game (stats-wise it was his worst game of the year)

FWIW, I really loved the picking motion White had Florida running where they'd get Bagley on a guard on the initial pick and then have that guard then run a pick with Carter's man. Putting Bagley and Carter into the pick and roll opened up the lane for them, gave the two of them fits, and made defensive rebounding an issue at times.

Having said that, I don't know if that's a strategy that will work against Duke in a month as I think Carter and Bagley are good mobile defenders that should be able to ice the pick if it comes to that. I think ultimately Duval is athletic enough to get over most picks which will really help. Duval makes enough small mental lapses right now that his balance is off when that initial pick comes (i.e. if the pick is set right, he's slightly out of position) so he gets caught which necessitates the switch. He's athletic enough that with coaching that shouldn't be happening as much February.
I agree with you, but I think Carter got a couple of offensive rebounds in the last five minutes. Also, I'm pretty sure I saw Carter ice a pick late in the game. Don't know if it was a change in strategy, but I assumed it was.

[CajunDevil]

Given that Duval had 2 TOs for the game, I'm not sure I believe your stat...

Duke turned the ball over on 3 of 4 possessions. Duval had the last of those turnovers. Grayson, and Marvin had the other two...

[gam7]

That's not your fault. That's the geniuses at ESPN showing two East Coast teams play at 12am.

I, for one, love the West Coast media bias!


Chiozza said it affected them

Every time his name comes up, I see/hear "Chorizo." What do you call a dumpling with spicy Spanish sausage in it? Answer: Chiozza.

[Kedsy]

It was only in that last 8 minutes that Duke had any offensive rebounds at all (the run in the first half was based entirely off of good shooting) and even then that was almost entirely Bagley.

Duke had six offensive rebounds in the first half, two offensive rebounds in the first 11.5 minutes of the 2nd half, and four offensive rebounds in the last 8.5 minutes of the game, just one in that stretch by Marvin Bagley.


I agree with you, but I think Carter got a couple of offensive rebounds in the last five minutes. Also, I'm pretty sure I saw Carter ice a pick late in the game. Don't know if it was a change in strategy, but I assumed it was.

According to the official box score, Wendell Carter didn't have any offensive rebounds in the entire game. The four offensive boards in the last 8:31 were one by Marvin, one by Trevon, and two by "team."


For whatever reason Carter never really got in the game (stats-wise it was his worst game of the year)

I thought he got into the game fine. His stats weren't as bad as you suggest, he just picked up two early fouls. Because of that foul trouble, he only played 21 minutes. If he'd played 35 minutes like most of the other starters, with the exact same stats-per-minute, he would have had 10 points, 11 rebounds, 2 assists and 2 blocks, and while he still shot a poor percentage from the field, it's likely nobody would be complaining about his stats.

[devildeac]

I, for one, love the West Coast media bias!



Every time his name comes up, I see/hear "Chorizo."

I never sausage a mistake as this one. ;)

[wilson]

I never sausage a mistake as this one. ;)Frankly, I could do without yet another string of tenuously linked puns. Those are the wurst.

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

Frankly, I could do without yet another string of tenuously linked puns. Those are the wurst.

Banger.

[sagegrouse]

I agree with you, but I think Carter got a couple of offensive rebounds in the last five minutes. Also, I'm pretty sure I saw Carter ice a pick late in the game. Don't know if it was a change in strategy, but I assumed it was.

Casual observation (which passes for science in front on my TV) is that Wendell Carter is a beast at the end of games but foul-prone and erratic during the first half. Is this just a case of the strongest player on the floor taking advantage of late-game situations? Or, is this something having to do with freshman play and learning to adapt to the college game?

[Lar77]

Casual observation (which passes for science in front on my TV) is that Wendell Carter is a beast at the end of games but foul-prone and erratic during the first half. Is this just a case of the strongest player on the floor taking advantage of late-game situations? Or, is this something having to do with freshman play and learning to adapt to the college game?

Sage, I trust your observations are always precisely worked through and tested.

My own casual observation (and I stress the casual) is that Wendell may be having more issues adjusting to the college game than MB3 (a tough person to be compared to anyway) leading to early fouls. I was very impressed by his play at the end of this game. He's going to be fine as the season progresses.

Someone made the observation that this team really hasn't had time to practice more fundamental team concepts in November or to get to apply things learned from watching the tapes due to a ridiculously crowded schedule. I anticipate that the long breaks in December, especially after exams (this ain't unc, our players actually have academic requirements) will give an opportunity to work on some items individually and as a team.

[gam7]

Sage, I trust your observations are always precisely worked through and tested.

My own casual observation (and I stress the casual) is that Wendell may be having more issues adjusting to the college game than MB3 (a tough person to be compared to anyway) leading to early fouls. I was very impressed by his play at the end of this game. He's going to be fine as the season progresses.

Someone made the observation that this team really hasn't had time to practice more fundamental team concepts in November or to get to apply things learned from watching the tapes due to a ridiculously crowded schedule. I anticipate that the long breaks in December, especially after exams (this ain't unc, our players actually have academic requirements) will give an opportunity to work on some items individually and as a team.

I was very impressed that Carter was able to play (well) for about 10 minutes with 4 fouls. His being able to do that will pay dividends later on.

[jimsumner]

Sage, I trust your observations are always precisely worked through and tested.

My own casual observation (and I stress the casual) is that Wendell may be having more issues adjusting to the college game than MB3 (a tough person to be compared to anyway) leading to early fouls. I was very impressed by his play at the end of this game. He's going to be fine as the season progresses.

Someone made the observation that this team really hasn't had time to practice more fundamental team concepts in November or to get to apply things learned from watching the tapes due to a ridiculously crowded schedule. I anticipate that the long breaks in December, especially after exams (this ain't unc, our players actually have academic requirements) will give an opportunity to work on some items individually and as a team.

I asked Carter about this after one of the games, Furman, perhaps. He said it was almost always a question of lateral movement, of not playing D with his feet and being caught in situations where he ended up reaching.

FWIW.

[uh_no]

I asked Carter about this after one of the games, Furman, perhaps. He said it was almost always a question of lateral movement, of not playing D with his feet and being caught in situations where he ended up reaching.

FWIW.

good question!

glad to hear he's self aware about it. that's the first step.

[CDu]

I asked Carter about this after one of the games, Furman, perhaps. He said it was almost always a question of lateral movement, of not playing D with his feet and being caught in situations where he ended up reaching.

FWIW.

This is probably the #1 reason for poor defense in general. If you move your feet and put in the sweat equity, you usually won't be bad at it. Defense tends to be more about effort than athleticism. True, elite defenders tend to be more athletic. But they also put in the effort.

A lot of folks' problems with defense fall in the category of "not realizing how much effort is required to be adequate at it." In high school, the speed of the game and the quality of the opponents is generally low enough that you can get away with less effort. Especially so as a big guy, because there is such a dearth of quality big men out there at the high school level. When you hit the college game, the players are bigger, more athletic, better, and better coached. As a result, bad effort habits get exposed much more easily.

Effort certainly isn't the only challenge freshmen face. Offensive schemes are generally much better at the college level too. So not knowing where you are supposed to be is also a big challenge. If you are out of position in high school but good enough to play D-1 college ball, you might be able to get away with it more often than not (due to your skill level as well as the lower quality of opposition). In college, if you are out of position, there is a very real chance you are going to get torched.

That's not an indictment of Carter. That's just the norm for college freshmen. It's rare that you see guys who walk onto campus already putting in the consistent effort on defense.

[Rich]

Not to mention we have someone who (no offense moonpie) intentionally spoils every single basket a few seconds in advance.


because i'm on a quicker feed, i post when things happen...I will refrain from "spoiling every single basket" with my responses, and just wait until you guys have "up-dated" your info...

Holy crap, I can't believe we just made a half court shot at the buzzer to win the game in OT!!! Oh, sorry, guys, I was just watching the game at Indiana. My feed is really quick! You should be able to see it by tomorrow night.

[flyingdutchdevil]

Holy crap, I can't believe we just made a half court shot at the buzzer to win the game in OT!!! Oh, sorry, guys, I was just watching the game at Indiana. My feed is really quick! You should be able to see it by tomorrow night.

If this game goes into OT, you can call the Duke team "spent and drained". IU is bad. Their defense will make Duke look like Virginia.

[ElSid]

Frankly, I could do without yet another string of tenuously linked puns. Those are the wurst.

Quit bein' a brat.

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

Holy crap, I can't believe we just made a half court shot at the buzzer to win the game in OT!!! Oh, sorry, guys, I was just watching the game at Indiana. My feed is really quick! You should be able to see it by tomorrow night.

At least you didn't spoil the part where we were 19 down with ten to go.

Whoops.

[BandAlum83]

Holy crap, I can't believe we just made a half court shot at the buzzer to win the game in OT!!! Oh, sorry, guys, I was just watching the game at Indiana. My feed is really quick! You should be able to see it by tomorrow night.

I can't believe we had to go into overtime on a sorry a** team like Indiana - even on our home court! I'm pretty sure your feed is messed up and you saw some other game.

[AtlDuke72]

Casual observation (which passes for science in front on my TV) is that Wendell Carter is a beast at the end of games but foul-prone and erratic during the first half. Is this just a case of the strongest player on the floor taking advantage of late-game situations? Or, is this something having to do with freshman play and learning to adapt to the college game?

I think that you may be reading too much into one or two games when he got into foul trouble. Big men always seem to be in foul trouble no matter how many years that they have played. Carter managaged pretty darn well in the MSU game when Bagley was out.

[Rich]

I can't believe we had to go into overtime on a sorry a** team like Indiana - even on our home court! I'm pretty sure your feed is messed up and you saw some other game.

Not sure what game you're gonna watch, but the one I saw was (will be) in Indiana. :cool:

[BandAlum83]

Not sure what game you're gonna watch, but the one I saw was (will be) in Indiana. :cool:

Yeah...typo without a doubt. Concentration does become an issue without my afternoon nap ;)

[DukieInKansas]

I can't believe we had to go into overtime on a sorry a** team like Indiana - even on our home court! I'm pretty sure your feed is messed up and you saw some other game.

Even on our home court? - I'm reading this as we had to go to OT on our home court so either you switched allegiances or your feed is really off since we play on IU's court. :D