MBB: Duke 99, Portland State 81 Post-Game Thread

[FerryFor50]

Shocked there's no post game theead already.

[dukelifer]

Shocked there's no post game theead already.

Strange game. Not a lot of flow. O'Connell continues to impress - need Allen to find his stroke- Bagley and Carter can bound- nice to be able to get buckets inside in tight games - free throw shooting needs to improve.

[OZ]

At half time, rsvman posted "Right now I'm going to predict we win this game by 17 or more.
Too many fouls for Portland State, and their shooting has to revert to the mean."

From now on, when he post, I'm listening!

[jipops]

Shocked there's no post game theead already.

Tryptophan.

Chippy, chippy 2nd half. Likely by design by the Vikings to get under Grayson's skin. I guess he'll be getting a call from Daniel Ewing now that clapping warrants a tech...after getting smacked in the face.

Perimeter shooting is horrendous right now. GA hasn't shot well at all since Mich St. The zone worked well for us midway through the 2nd half, but I don't think it bodes well if we keep having to use it.

[Devilwin]

Pretty good second half. Grayson not very good today, but he'll come back strong I feel. Gotta find that jumper. We were getting out hustled and out rebounded in the first half, but woke up in time to beat these thugs, er, guys.

[drummerdevil]

Wasn’t pretty in the first half, Portland state couldn’t miss, got better in the second although I didn’t think the game was going to end with all those fouls at the end. Didn’t think Grayson deserved the tech and there were some obvious no calls, but the refs at least called most things.

[Furniture]

I thought Bolden did well. 10 rebounds 8 points. Good energy.

[WHOneedsSOX]

At half time, rsvman posted "Right now I'm going to predict we win this game by 17 or more.
Too many fouls for Portland State, and their shooting has to revert to the mean."

From now on, when he post, I'm listening!

Yup, he was spot on.

Very impressed with Bolden and O'Connell today. Both guys brought some much needed energy off the bench today.

[53n206]

Bolden is playing so well. Happy for him.

[RaiderDevil]

If the refs call North's third foul flagrant, as it should have been, I think the game would have not gotten so chippy. The tech on Grayson may have been the most ridiculous I have ever seen.

[OZ]

Actually, this was probably a good experience for a young team. Being number ONE and heavily favored means one thing to these other teams... an opportunity for their "one shining moment." Defense is not watching from the other end.
BTW, I wonder how many more technicals we see called this year on a player walking away clapping. I was surprised when that was the ref's ridiculous explanation to Bilas. However, it was a good lesson for Allen... the refs haven't forgotten and are watching.

[duke4ever19]

Some people are going to say "What if Portland State hadn't gotten into foul trouble?" etc.

Occasionally a team will play a style which just outright dares the refs to foul their whole team out and we've all seen refs start to swallow their whistle so as to not "influence the game too much" which, of course, influences the game by keeping players in the game who should have fouled out much earlier.

I'm glad these refs stuck to their guns and called the fouls as they saw them.

[WHOneedsSOX]

If the refs call North's third foul flagrant, as it should have been, I think the game would have not gotten so chippy. The tech on Grayson may have been the most ridiculous I have ever seen.


Actually, this was probably a good experience for a young team. Being number ONE and heavily favored means one thing to these other teams... an opportunity for their "one shining moment." Defense is not watching from the other end.
BTW, I wonder how many more technicals we see called this year on a player walking away clapping. I was surprised when that was the ref's explanation to Bilas.

I think the tech on Allen was due to the fact that the game was getting chippy and the game was over at that point. Refs just sending a message to both teams to shut up and just finish the game. In a close game I'd be willing to bet there's no way that was a technical.

#1 on their team was doing some very sneaky dirty plays. Walked really close to Allen as Allen was walking by in hopes of "accidentally" tripping over Allen and causing a whole new thing. Bilas was spot on when he said Portland State was baiting Allen trying to get him to do something. It's going to happen a lot this season I bet.

[TheOldBattleship]

I'm actually not too worried about that game. You always hear from people in all sorts of different sports how difficult it is to play at weird times on holidays and, of course, we're very young. Playing in the mid-afternoon on Thanksgiving is about as unusual a situation as there is. Liked that we kept pushing and pushing even though just about everything felt off early in the game. Portland State was unbelievably hot hitting outside shots in the first half, we were very cold, and we just ground it out with our size.

Great to see really positive contributions from O'Connell and Bolden, both of whom did exactly what we need from them this year (rugged positional play from Bolden and sparkplug offense from O'Connell in a game where we weren't able to get anything going offensively). Great rebounding, as per usual. Really liked Duval and Allen breaking the press with the intent of scoring immediately with the advantage. I'm always mildly baffled when guys pull the ball back out after beating the press and having a chance to get to the basket. Don't have to worry about that kind of aggression with our guards, that's for sure. Would love to see more of Trent taking matters into his own hands and driving middle.

I think we even had reasonably good composure across the board, though I won't say I wasn't nervous that somebody was going to get a bit frustrated there when it got rough (dirty?) there in the second half. I'd guess that we'll look much better later in this tournament.

[-jk]

Our man defense is still a work in progress. Or maybe a work yet to progress.

The game changed when we changed to zone. And when they got in really bad foul trouble and couldn't press so much.

-jk

[Dukeblue91]

Allen didn't shoot well today but he put up 9 assists.
That's nothing to sneeze at.
Very strange game.

[OldPhiKap]

Bolden and O’Connell earned the starts in the second half. Pretty much our best players in the first half (sorry Bags but you gotta start hitting some free throws).

When PSt cooled off in the second half, Bagley and Carter were monsters.

Not a fun game to watch, really, on a lot of levels. But hopefully a good learning experience for the freshman. You can’t just roll the ball out there and assume you’ll win because of talent. I think the paint blistered at halftime in the locker room.

[Tripping William]

Bolden and O’Connell earned the starts in the second half. Pretty much our best players in the first half (sorry Bags but you gotta start hitting some free throws).

When PSt cooled off in the second half, Bagley and Carter were monsters.

Not a fun game to watch, really, on a lot of levels. But hopefully a good learning experience for the freshman. You can’t just roll the ball out there and assume you’ll win because of talent. I think the paint blistered at halftime in the locker room.

What’s disappointing is that I thought Southern was “that game.” Youth, I guess.

[TheOldBattleship]

Our man defense is still a work in progress. Or maybe a work yet to progress.

The game changed when we changed to zone. And when they got in really bad foul trouble and couldn't press so much.

-jk

I'm really intrigued to see our zone against a really elite shooting team (VaTech and Notre Dame are the two teams that spring immediately to mind, but I'm guessing there are a couple of good examples that we'll see before them). Will our length let us close out well enough? Years of seeing US pick zones apart by stretching, overloading, and driving the seams makes me wonder what we'll look like facing a team that can do those things. Regardless, the fact that we are just going to keep you off the glass because of our size and athleticism obviously counters at least one of the typical negatives for a zone.

(Just as a fun note, Indiana is NOT built to pick apart a zone. According to Basketball Reference, they're currently #253 in the country in 3pts made, and #280 in 3pt%. It's obviously still early, but man, if you can't hit 3s against us, you're going to have a bad time.)

[heyman25]

I screwed up I thought the game was at 4:30 PST. I must have not paid attention.What time tomorrow. WE need to keep going down low in the paint. Carter had great stats as did Bagley. I have not seen O'Connell yet live. He is very productive on offense.

[proelitedota]

I'm really intrigued to see our zone against a really elite shooting team (VaTech and Notre Dame are the two teams that spring immediately to mind, but I'm guessing there are a couple of good examples that we'll see before them). Will our length let us close out well enough? Years of seeing US pick zones apart by stretching, overloading, and driving the seams makes me wonder what we'll look like facing a team that can do those things. Regardless, the fact that we are just going to keep you off the glass because of our size and athleticism obviously counters at least one of the typical negatives for a zone.

(Just as a fun note, Indiana is NOT built to pick apart a zone. According to Basketball Reference, they're currently #253 in the country in 3pts made, and #280 in 3pt%. It's obviously still early, but man, if you can't hit 3s against us, you're going to have a bad time.)

Indiana is going to hit 50% of their 3s against us.

[tbyers11]

I screwed up I thought the game was at 4:30 PST. I must have not paid attention.What time tomorrow. WE need to keep going down low in the paint. Carter had great stats as did Bagley. I have not seen O'Connell yet live. He is very productive on offense.

Game tomorrow is at 5:30 ET

[WHOneedsSOX]

Butler-Texas game 13-9 with 6 minutes left in the half. One guy on Texas has 10 points and one guy on Butler has all 9.

[peterjswift]

I missed the game in its entirety - only getting by with occasional score updates. Then, when I open ESPN after the game, the first video highlight is a Grayson technical (?!?) for clapping. Sounds like this game got really chippy - can someone fill me in on what was going on?

I realize I have no context for Grayson's T, but man...that seemed downright silly - which makes me think there had to be a lot leading up to that if that rose to the level of a T in a game that was going Duke's way at that point.

And if I read correctly, a Portland State player drew multiple technicals??

Sounds like a bizarre game to me.

[-jk]

Butler-Texas game 13-9 with 6 minutes left in the half. One guy on Texas has 10 points and one guy on Butler has all 9.

First to 40 wins?

-jk

[kmspeaks]

I missed the game in its entirety - only getting by with occasional score updates. Then, when I open ESPN after the game, the first video highlight is a Grayson technical (?!?) for clapping. Sounds like this game got really chippy - can someone fill me in on what was going on?

I realize I have no context for Grayson's T, but man...that seemed downright silly - which makes me think there had to be a lot leading up to that if that rose to the level of a T in a game that was going Duke's way at that point.

And if I read correctly, a Portland State player drew multiple technicals??

Sounds like a bizarre game to me.

As Duke started to pull away in the second half Portland State got physical. I believe the player who fouled Grayson before the clapping technical was the same one who earlier tried to walk over him when he fell after the 2 got tangled up on a rebound. There was also a play where Carter or Bolden was standing watching a ball go out of bounds and a Portland State player rammed him in the back with a shoulder. Would have been a block in the back in the football field but nothing was called in this game.

Grayson's technical was likely a weak attempt by the refs to gain control long after they had already lost it.

[tbyers11]

I missed the game in its entirety - only getting by with occasional score updates. Then, when I open ESPN after the game, the first video highlight is a Grayson technical (?!?) for clapping. Sounds like this game got really chippy - can someone fill me in on what was going on?

I realize I have no context for Grayson's T, but man...that seemed downright silly - which makes me think there had to be a lot leading up to that if that rose to the level of a T in a game that was going Duke's way at that point.

And if I read correctly, a Portland State player drew multiple technicals??

Sounds like a bizarre game to me.

Odd game is correct.

Portland St got really chippy in the 2nd half when things started getting away from them. North (for Port St) got a tech for taking a swing at Carter after a jump ball was called. Same guy got his 2nd tech (and 5th foul) for running his mouth while waiting to check back in a few minutes later. Things got worse after that. There were 3 or 4 occasions where I thought the refs could have called a tech on Port St after that.

On Grayson's play, he drove to the basket and got fouled hard across the face. Could have called a flagrant on the PSU player if they wanted to because he didn't really make a play on the ball. Grayson got up and walked to the foul line clapping exaggeratedly. He didn't walk toward the guy that fouled him. Another PSU player got in Grayson's face as he walked to the line and the ref's called a double tech. It was pretty absurd. Even Bilas thought it was absurd. What Grayson did isn't a tech 99% of the time. The refs had let the game get out of hand a bit and decided to call a double tech to try and calm things down.

[proelitedota]

Hopefully PSU is the punkest and thuggest team well play this year. 2nd half wasn't basketball.

[OldPhiKap]

As Duke started to pull away in the second half Portland State got physical. I believe the player who fouled Grayson before the clapping technical was the same one who earlier tried to walk over him when he fell after the 2 got tangled up on a rebound. There was also a play where Carter or Bolden was standing watching a ball go out of bounds and a Portland State player rammed him in the back with a shoulder. Would have been a block in the back in the football field but nothing was called in this game.

Grayson's technical was likely a weak attempt by the refs to gain control long after they had already lost it.

In addition, their one man wrecking crew picked up his fourth foul as a technical, then got another technical as he was sitting at the scorer’s table to check back in. Odd. And then the kid was losing it on the sideline (not like GA last year, but still pretty out of control).

[subzero02]

Bolden is playing so well. Happy for him.

I was critical of Bolden's play against Southern and rightfully so but he looked much better today and was very effective on both ends.

[weezie]

...Grayson...the clapping technical...

As we type, I'm sure the new "clapping technical" is being codified into the rules bible of the hallowed NCAA.

After all, the venerated, never wrong Roger Ayers was behind the desk.

[WHOneedsSOX]

I missed the game in its entirety - only getting by with occasional score updates. Then, when I open ESPN after the game, the first video highlight is a Grayson technical (?!?) for clapping. Sounds like this game got really chippy - can someone fill me in on what was going on?

I realize I have no context for Grayson's T, but man...that seemed downright silly - which makes me think there had to be a lot leading up to that if that rose to the level of a T in a game that was going Duke's way at that point.

And if I read correctly, a Portland State player drew multiple technicals??

Sounds like a bizarre game to me.

Portland State player (#3) threw a forearm at Carter as they were wrestling for a rebound and got a technical. On that same play a different Portland State player (#5) was wrestling with Allen for the rebound, Allen fell, and the Portland State player stood over Allen for a good 2-3 seconds trying to bait Allen into doing something. He stood with his feet in between Allen's legs and didn't move for a good couple seconds. Bilas noted it looked like Portland State was trying to bait Allen into doing something. The same Portland State player (#3) got another technical later for yelling something from the sideline as he was checking into the game. Too bad for that idiot too cause he was killing Duke with 24 points in 20 minutes.

Allen went up for a monster dunk and got fouled hard (cleanly) and clapped emphatically. A Portland State player (#0) yelled something at Allen and both were T'ed up. I think those T's were mostly because the game was chippy and it was practically over at that point (think Duke was up around 15 with 2 minutes left). Refs just wanted the players to shut up and finish the game. Allen walked to half court and #1 (he'll come up later) yelled something at Allen also. Refs missed it cause they were reviewing. While they were reviewing, apparently Allen was trying to get the Duke fans to make noise and Coach K yelled at him to shut up and stop. Allen was subbed out right after he shot his free throws.

Later in the game I noticed one player on Portland State (#1) making these sneaky dirty plays. He deliberately shoved Carter hard in the back as the ball was rolling out of bounds. Nothing was called. Then later on I saw that same guy walk right to Allen and walked really close behind him I think trying to trip himself over Allen. It was a really weird route the player took since he was trying to lineup on the block for free throws. No reason for him to walk right behind Allen. Then that same guy walked over Duval later in the game purposely I thought. He also undercut Bagley when Bagley was in the air for a rebound.

#0 also raised an elbow and stared down Trent as Trent went in to steal the ball as Portland State was calling timeout. The ref ran over and said something to that player. That's the same player who got a technical on the Allen play.

Nothing really bad but I thought Portland State was on the border between playing dirty and playing hard.

[ipatent]

Good experience game on the road against a physical (bordering on dirty) team that was hitting shots. Duval held the team together with his scoring and ball handing in the first half, and AOC and Bolden gave the team a lift when it was struggling tonight.

[Henderson]

K gave a short radio interview after the game and didn't complain about the play by Portland State. He did however say, "There were a lot of hard fouls. A ... lot ... of ... hard ... fouls." And I don't think he was talking about his guys.

[WHOneedsSOX]

First to 40 wins?

-jk

22-19 at halftime. It might be first to 40 wins haha


K gave a short radio interview after the game and didn't complain about the play by Portland State. He did however say, "There were a lot of hard fouls. A ... lot ... of ... hard ... fouls." And I don't think he was talking about his guys.

Of course he's not going to say anything. Does nothing other than make himself look bad and a whiner. Duke won't see Portland State anymore this season. No reason to say anything.

[Saratoga2]

Many of my observations from the game have already been covered so perhaps my comments will seem repetitive. The early MTM was ineffective as we often did not have a hand in the shooters face, not getting back and into defensive position for most of the first half. It looked like our players were getting tired out trying to stay in front of players. The switch to the screen was more effective but some of that might have also been the buildup of fouls on the important players on their team.

On offense, Allen isn't shooting well from 3 but did get 9 assists so was at least sommewhat effective. It looked like his attitude might get him into trouble again. Refs appear to keep an eye on his play and won't accept poor behavior by him. I would hope that he realizes he is a marked man on the court and stay away from controversial plays.

We clearly had a big advantage in size, athleticism and skill but were squandering opportunities by trying to make spectacular plays which resulted in TO's. Against a better team the difference could be between winning and losing. Its a bit unfair to criticize the guys who carried us on to win, but they need to take quality shots or pass the ball.

Our shooting needs to improve. Grayson and Gary in particular have to hit close to 40% to give our team that additional dimension.

Clearly Bolden and O'Connell played well and gave us a spark. O'Connell in particular can be an effective scorer, at least against the competition level we saw tonight. I can see him getting more time in games although Grayson and Gary are better defenders at this juncture.

Coach K has enough film to develop some teaching moments. This team has great potential but also can play much better than they did tonight. They will meet a better foe tomorrow but I am expecting them to have enough to win that game.

[uh_no]

clearly the zone was more efficient today....the degree to which that was dependent on foul trouble and their shooting is hard to know for sure.

1) good minutes from bolden and oconnell again.
2) i'm not worried about allen. in a game where he shoots like crap, he still puts up 14 and 9 assists and we score 99 on a 128 efficiency? I'll take that every day of the week
3) mildly concerned about duval 5 TO vs 2 assists....seems to be a bit of the preseason duval that he seemed to have improved. I think at least 3 of the TO was being far too aggressive on the break. needs to have a little bit of conscience there and he'll be fine

see you tomorrow

[SkyBrickey]

As poor as our MTM defense has been, our 2-3 zone has been exceptional. We are not giving up many open looks from 3 and are rebounding well - typically two downsides of playing a zone. Our length and athleticism really allow us to flex out and cover the perimeter. Occasionally we then get beat off the dribble but usually there's a big stepping forward to force a tough shot or pass.

I'm sure Coach will continue working the MTM - he's not giving up on it this early in the season, for sure. But I don't know that I've ever seen a Duke zone this imposing.

Great efforts by O'Connell and Bolden tonight. We need Allen and Trent to shoot better than they have the past few games if we're going to reach our potential. Expecting a much better 40 minute effort tomorrow.

[Skydog]

Carter was a lot better than he looked out there and a lot better than he got credit for. In the first half I don't think he scored (or maybe had 1 basket?) so the negative narrative was set early (the so-called primacy effect). But if you look at his overall game you see a much different picture: 21 mins, 16 points (7-8 from the floor), 2-2 ft, 10 rebounds, 2 blocks, 2 assists, 0 turnovers and 2 fouls. His offensive eff rating was an outstanding 186. And if you extrapolate those numbers to say 34 min (with the caveat he could actually keep playing at that rate) and he might be a highlight on Sports Center! But watching him on the court it was a very quiet outing - only figured this out when I saw he was the team "MVP" according to Kenpoms' automatic rating algorithm.

[uh_no]

As poor as our MTM defense has been, our 2-3 zone has been exceptional. We are not giving up many open looks from 3 and are rebounding well - typically two downsides of playing a zone. Our length and athleticism really allow us to flex out and cover the perimeter. Occasionally we then get beat off the dribble but usually there's a big stepping forward to force a tough shot or pass.

I'm sure Coach will continue working the MTM - he's not giving up on it this early in the season, for sure. But I don't know that I've ever seen a Duke zone this imposing.

Great efforts by O'Connell and Bolden tonight. We need Allen and Trent to shoot better than they have the past few games if we're going to reach our potential. Expecting a much better 40 minute effort tomorrow.

i think coach probably wished he could have rested some of those guys a bit more....but getting the win was prime concern obviously. hopefully the hack-a-duke doesn't become a pattern. couple of really really ugly games.

[CajunDevil]

A good teaching game. Duke was sped up - which contributed to Duval’s turnovers - but went to zone and the game settled down. I think Duke is using games against lesser opponents to work on M2M but it is so painful to watch. Oddly, we seemed to rebound better out of zone than M2M, and the zone slows the offensive attack the K talked about in post-game presser. I doubt we see Duke in M2M often in big games except as a change of pace.

Also, Alex O’Connell and Bolden played were excellent in first half. AOC will be in rotation. I think that much is clear now.

Duval scored well today and was recipient of really bad charge/block call. He won’t have many 2:5 a:to games. He will be fine.

[tteettimes]

Tomorrow.....Texas vs Duke.....
It’s Bags vs Bamba........can’t wait......

[jimsumner]

Of course he's not going to say anything. Does nothing other than make himself look bad and a whiner. Duke won't see Portland State anymore this season. No reason to say anything.

No. But they will play more teams that will try to physically man-handle them and try to provoke a reaction from Allen, especially as long as the officials let them get away with it.

[Hauerwas]

I'll give Portland St. credit, they were ready to play and knocked us back big time in the first half, but those were without question some of the biggest punks we've ever played. It was like watching your little brother play basketball with you in the drive way and when he realizes he cannot win, he just wants to hurt you. I'm proud of our guys for keeping their heads because the refs completely lost control of the game. Their were so many late, hard, chippy fouls. Straight thug play that you just don't see that often.

Bolden gave us huge minutes in the first half. His length will be a problem for a lot of folks. Carter is just so solid: nothing flashy, just a rock down low. Bagley still cannot hit a free throw, that could be an issue as the season continues. Grayson's shot was still off but I'll give him credit for not punching somebody. Duval got to the hoop whenever he wanted and looked a lot like Russell Westbrook at times, he's scary athletic. Javin continued to get out in the passing lanes, and O'Connell is now officially the next "most hated Duke player". Kid can play, his plus/minus must be one of the highest on the team right now. He's got a pure shot and great bounce. Trent didn't do much, but did hit a big 3, he seems to have a knack for the big shot.

Overall I was worried about this team and their style coupled with a 6 hour plane ride. Glad to survive and a great learning experience for the young Blue Devils. K has to cram 4 years of maturation into 4 months these days, this game will bode well for them in March.

[TKG]

No. But they will play more teams that will try to physically man-handle them and try to provoke a reaction from Allen, especially as long as the officials let them get away with it.

Count on it.

[duke4ever19]

Nice little bit of trivia from the AP postgame article:

"Coach Krzyzewski has coached 229 games with a No. 1-ranked team, surpassing John Wooden for the lead."

[moonpie23]

survive and move on......yeah, they rose to the occasion and knocked us back. we didn't panic, but it took us a while to adjust.

glad to see so many contributions by various players.


Grayson has to be careful.....he's a marked man, and other teams are going to try to goad him into a reaction.....that punk that stepped over him tonight is an example.....and whatEVER he does, he MUST not clap.........at all.......ever...

[uh_no]

survive and move on...yeah, they rose to the occasion and knocked us back. we didn't panic, but it took us a while to adjust.

glad to see so many contributions by various players.


Grayson has to be careful....he's a marked man, and other teams are going to try to goad him into a reaction....that punk that stepped over him tonight is an example....and whatEVER he does, he MUST not clap.....at all....ever...

I thought grayson handled it fine. After the first tech, they had to call the second. If he plays his cards right, he can goad more people into getting T's trying to "goad him into a reaction"

[AtlDuke72]

[QUOTE=Hauerwas;1017121]I'll give Portland St. credit, they were ready to play and knocked


wanted and looked a lot like Russell Westbrook at times, he's scary athletic. Javin continued to get out in the passing lanes, and O'Connell is now officially the next "most hated Duke player". Kid can play, his plus/minus must be one of the highest on the. . .

Is there any basis for the comment that O’Connell is going to be a hated player ? Does it attach toe every white kid that comes into the program? It is bad enough when other sources say that type of statement without it being promoted on DBR.

[duke4ever19]

No. But they will play more teams that will try to physically man-handle them and try to provoke a reaction from Allen, especially as long as the officials let them get away with it.

I fully convinced that the Portland St. game-plan was the following: "The refs can't foul our whole team out, right? Let's make a few shots, but focus on roughing Duke up and put the pressure on the refs to make all those foul calls."

As I stated earlier, Portland St. absolutely earned all those foul calls. The difference is that Portland St had composure in the first half while committing those fouls, because hey, they were making shots. They were winning. They were feeling pretty good about themselves.

But those fouls added up, and when Duke switched its defense look and the three-point well began to run dry, then it began to be clear that these were just a bunch of guys pushing and shoving and slapping and yapping at the refs. It looked less like a game plan and more like a bunch of guys with no composure.

[-jk]

No. But they will play more teams that will try to physically man-handle them and try to provoke a reaction from Allen, especially as long as the officials let them get away with it.

Long standing plan: if you can't beat us, beat us up...

-jk

[ipatent]

more like a bunch of guys with no composure.

I think the North kid psyched himself out after the big first half. The pressure got to him.

[ndkjr70]

One of the weirdest games I can remember. I’m angry thinking about the game; a feeling I usually save for losses. Glad we won’t have to play them again, they looked like their objective was to do every single dirty thing they could to get into G’s Head. Lucky for us, it’s really starting to stand out that Grayson truly has his emotions in check.

Except for clapping, I guess. I missed the rule change where clapping while walking away from the player that just hit you in the face was a tech.

[ndkjr70]

[QUOTE=Hauerwas;1017121]I'll give Portland St. credit, they were ready to play and knocked


wanted and looked a lot like Russell Westbrook at times, he's scary athletic. Javin continued to get out in the passing lanes, and O'Connell is now officially the next "most hated Duke player". Kid can play, his plus/minus must be one of the highest on the. . .

Is there any basis for the comment that O’Connell is going to be a hated player ? Does it attach toe every white kid that comes into the program? It is bad enough when other sources say that type of statement without it being promoted on DBR.

White Duke player = hated. Period, end of sentence. My buddy went to UNC and to this day he says that his least favorite player ever is Lee Melchioni. I can’t remember a single thing Lee Melchioni did in his time here other than swish threes with the ugliest form possible.

[OZ]

I think the tech on Allen was due to the fact that the game was getting chippy and the game was over at that point. Refs just sending a message to both teams to shut up and just finish the game. In a close game I'd be willing to bet there's no way that was a technical.

#1 on their team was doing some very sneaky dirty plays. Walked really close to Allen as Allen was walking by in hopes of "accidentally" tripping over Allen and causing a whole new thing. Bilas was spot on when he said Portland State was baiting Allen trying to get him to do something. It's going to happen a lot this season I bet.

If that were the reason, then he was about ten minutes too late. That should have happened when North swung at Carter and the other guy took a stroll over a seated Allen. It's a little late to get serious with the chippiness with two minutes left.

[duke4ever19]

Good 'ol Doug Gottlieb tweeted, "Duke needed zone to beat Portland St eh?"

Jeff Goodman also tweeted something along the same lines about a guy sitting next to him who said "Duke needed to go zone to beat a Big Sky school . . . stay in your zone, Duke. Stay in your zone."

Sure, I guess going zone helped us against Portland St. but when did playing zone become some a shameful thing? Besides, if "going zone" actually works, then wouldn't it be wise to feature that defense instead of man-to-man?

I know K is using man-to-man because the team needs to improve on it and it helps to be able to show an opponent more than one defensive look, but wow, I bet Boheim would be interested to know how much his zone is used as a by-word.

[devildeac]

No. But they will play more teams that will try to physically man-handle them and try to provoke a reaction from Allen, especially as long as the officials let them get away with it.

Nah, never happened to Duke before (cough, south carolina, cough, loovile, cough) :rolleyes::mad:.

[devildeac]

One of the weirdest games I can remember. I’m angry thinking about the game; a feeling I usually save for losses. Glad we won’t have to play them again, they looked like their objective was to do every single dirty thing they could to get into G’s Head. Lucky for us, it’s really starting to stand out that Grayson truly has his emotions in check.

Except for clapping, I guess. I missed the rule change where clapping while walking away from the player that just hit you in the face was a tech.

One of weezie's favorite acc arseclown refs (ayres? eades?) T'd K up one time a few years ago for walking away from him while clapping his hands as he returned to the Duke huddle. :mad:

[camion]

People can get upset when you clap sardonically. :eek:

[Neals384]

Another odd thing about this game was the substitution pattern. AOC and Bolden started the 2nd half, but played just 3 minutes before K put the regular starting lineup in. Then no substitutions at all for 14 1/2 minutes - all the way to the 2 1/2 minute mark.

[rsvman]

Many of my observations from the game have already been covered so perhaps my comments will seem repetitive. The early MTM was ineffective as we often did not have a hand in the shooters face, not getting back and into defensive position for most of the first half. It looked like our players were getting tired out trying to stay in front of players. The switch to the screen was more effective but some of that might have also been the buildup of fouls on the important players on their team.

On offense, Allen isn't shooting well from 3 but did get 9 assists so was at least sommewhat effective. It looked like his attitude might get him into trouble again. Refs appear to keep an eye on his play and won't accept poor behavior by him. I would hope that he realizes he is a marked man on the court and stay away from controversial plays.

We clearly had a big advantage in size, athleticism and skill but were squandering opportunities by trying to make spectacular plays which resulted in TO's. Against a better team the difference could be between winning and losing. Its a bit unfair to criticize the guys who carried us on to win, but they need to take quality shots or pass the ball.

Our shooting needs to improve. Grayson and Gary in particular have to hit close to 40% to give our team that additional dimension.

Clearly Bolden and O'Connell played well and gave us a spark. O'Connell in particular can be an effective scorer, at least against the competition level we saw tonight. I can see him getting more time in games although Grayson and Gary are better defenders at this juncture.

Coach K has enough film to develop some teaching moments. This team has great potential but also can play much better than they did tonight. They will meet a better foe tomorrow but I am expecting them to have enough to win that game.

This. I came here to post these thoughts but Saratoga2 had already done it. :-)

[NYBri]

This game is what things look like when Grayson throws mainly bricks.

SO much of the offense feeds off his shot that when he is off, the rhythm suffers and it can get ugly.

Proud that we found a way to win against a WWF team. :cool:

[TNTDevil]

White Duke player = hated. Period, end of sentence. My buddy went to UNC and to this day he says that his least favorite player ever is Lee Melchioni. I can’t remember a single thing Lee Melchioni did in his time here other than swish threes with the ugliest form possible.
My daughter is a freshman at UVM. UVM's basketball team is almost as white as their hockey team (and the whole state for that matter). UVM's bball teams is really good but, no "DUKE" on the jersey and you get no hate.

[jacone21]

Another odd thing about this game was the substitution pattern. AOC and Bolden started the 2nd half, but played just 3 minutes before K put the regular starting lineup in. Then no substitutions at all for 14 1/2 minutes - all the way to the 2 1/2 minute mark.

Yeah. I think K was saying, "Okay starters. Let's see what y'all got." Coach is always training his guys for something to come.

[Kedsy]

At half time, rsvman posted "Right now I'm going to predict we win this game by 17 or more.
Too many fouls for Portland State, and their shooting has to revert to the mean."

From now on, when he post, I'm listening!

I wasn't on-line, but at halftime I said to my family, "Duke is winning this game by at least 15." I'll give rsvman credit for being two points closer than I was, but it wasn't that hard a prediction to make.


Some people are going to say "What if Portland State hadn't gotten into foul trouble?" etc.

Portland State was called for 33 fouls tonight. In their previous four games, they were called for an average of 26 fouls per game. So, a few more today, but basically Portland State fouls a lot.


What’s disappointing is that I thought Southern was “that game.” Youth, I guess.

Portland State clearly used the "Southern strategy:" take care of the ball, hit threes, hope Duke misses threes, and foul a LOT.

And when I say a LOT, I mean it. Our free throw rate tonight was an absurd 66.7%. Against Southern it was an equally absurd 66.1%. Our next highest this season was 38.2% against Michigan State, and our next highest was 23.3% against Utah Valley.

I said this after the Southern game, but I suspect a bunch of teams are going to try this against us. It won't work if Grayson and Gary hit their outside shots, and we'll still out-talent most teams, but to me this looks like the best formula to beat us.


O'Connell is now officially the next "most hated Duke player". Kid can play, his plus/minus must be one of the highest on the team right now.

In fact, not. According to Neals384's excellent thread, Alex's +/- per 40 is 9th on the team (and even in just this one game, which admittedly isn't a great measure due to small sample size, he was 8th in +/- per 40). Probably because there are two sides to the court.

Don't get me wrong, I think Alex played great tonight, and frankly he's been really good all season. But once the calendar flips to 2018, I suspect his minutes will decline. For one thing, even with our shooting 22% from three-range, we still put up a very strong 125 oRating (or 128, depends on what possession count is correct). What was troublesome about this game was our 108 dRating, and I have a theory: Wendell played only 21 minutes and (perhaps more importantly, since Marques played really well subbing in for Wendell) Javin only played 8 minutes.

In other words, we need Javin's D a lot more than we need Alex's O. At least that's my opinion. I suppose we'll have to wait to see if K agrees with me.

[Furniture]

I could be wrong but in 'general' people on DBR don't like Duval.

[killerleft]

[QUOTE=Hauerwas;1017121]I'll give Portland St. credit, they were ready to play and knocked


wanted and looked a lot like Russell Westbrook at times, he's scary athletic. Javin continued to get out in the passing lanes, and O'Connell is now officially the next "most hated Duke player". Kid can play, his plus/minus must be one of the highest on the. . .

Is there any basis for the comment that O’Connell is going to be a hated player ? Does it attach toe every white kid that comes into the program? It is bad enough when other sources say that type of statement without it being promoted on DBR.

How could Hermey from the Island of Misfit Toys be a hated player? C'mon!

[subzero02]

I could be wrong but in 'general' people on DBR don't like Duval.

And the sun could be hot...

[DukeBlue666s]

No game thread for tomorrow yet?

... don’t wanna step on anyone’s piggies if I were to make one.

We get Bagley vs Bamba!

[BLPOG]

I don't think it's been posted yet and I don't see it on GoDuke, but here is a Facebook (https://www.facebook.com/DukeMBB/videos/10155999545244456/) link.

[DukeFanSince1990]

I could be wrong but in 'general' people on DBR don't like Duval.

Then "in general" people are dumb.

[OZ]

I wasn't on-line, but at halftime I said to my family, "Duke is winning this game by at least 15." I'll give rsvman credit for being two points closer than I was, but it wasn't that hard a prediction to make.

Really?

[brlftz]

Really?

Yeah really. Said basically the same to my wife when she asked me at half if I was worried.

[jwillfan]

People can get upset when you clap sardonically. :eek:

Or sarcastically?

https://vimeo.com/182093290

:cool:

[juise]

Really?

I was at the game and I was thinking 13-20 at half. Almost everyone on PSU had 2 fouls. It was not sustainable.

[WHOneedsSOX]

And when I say a LOT, I mean it. Our free throw rate tonight was an absurd 66.7%. Against Southern it was an equally absurd 66.1%. Our next highest this season was 38.2% against Michigan State, and our next highest was 23.3% against Utah Valley.

Don't get me wrong, I think Alex played great tonight, and frankly he's been really good all season. But once the calendar flips to 2018, I suspect his minutes will decline. For one thing, even with our shooting 22% from three-range, we still put up a very strong 125 oRating (or 128, depends on what possession count is correct). What was troublesome about this game was our 108 dRating, and I have a theory: Wendell played only 21 minutes and (perhaps more importantly, since Marques played really well subbing in for Wendell) Javin only played 8 minutes.

In other words, we need Javin's D a lot more than we need Alex's O. At least that's my opinion. I suppose we'll have to wait to see if K agrees with me.

The missed free throws was all Bagley. Carter was 2-2, Allen 9-11, Duval 7-9, Trent 6-6, DeLaurier 1-2, and then Bagley at 6-12.

I think you're right about O'Connell. I think come league time neither O'Connell or Goldwire will be getting more than 1-3 minutes a game if it's close and that'll only be if Allen, Trent, or Duval is in big foul trouble.

[gam7]

Many of my observations from the game have already been covered so perhaps my comments will seem repetitive. The early MTM was ineffective as we often did not have a hand in the shooters face, not getting back and into defensive position for most of the first half. It looked like our players were getting tired out trying to stay in front of players. The switch to the screen was more effective but some of that might have also been the buildup of fouls on the important players on their team.

On offense, Allen isn't shooting well from 3 but did get 9 assists so was at least sommewhat effective. It looked like his attitude might get him into trouble again. Refs appear to keep an eye on his play and won't accept poor behavior by him. I would hope that he realizes he is a marked man on the court and stay away from controversial plays.

We clearly had a big advantage in size, athleticism and skill but were squandering opportunities by trying to make spectacular plays which resulted in TO's. Against a better team the difference could be between winning and losing. Its a bit unfair to criticize the guys who carried us on to win, but they need to take quality shots or pass the ball.

Our shooting needs to improve. Grayson and Gary in particular have to hit close to 40% to give our team that additional dimension.

Clearly Bolden and O'Connell played well and gave us a spark. O'Connell in particular can be an effective scorer, at least against the competition level we saw tonight. I can see him getting more time in games although Grayson and Gary are better defenders at this juncture.

Coach K has enough film to develop some teaching moments. This team has great potential but also can play much better than they did tonight. They will meet a better foe tomorrow but I am expecting them to have enough to win that game.

Good summary. I'll just add a couple things:

1. Re: Grayson - At the very beginning of the game, I think I heard Shulman say that Grayson has been dealing with a sore wrist. Did anyone else hear that? If so, that might explain the cold shooting - he really was way off on several of those threes.

2. No one in this thread has mentioned Grayson's explosive drive and dunk in the first half. That was nasty. It wasn't quite at the level of his UNLV dunk last year, but it wasn't too far off.

3. I have to strongly disagree with anyone who is unhappy with Duval's play. I thought he was really good tonight. The assists to TOs in the box score don't look great on paper, but he was getting to the basket pretty much at will. (And for what it's worth, the one turnover of his that I can recall off the top of my head was a pathetic flop by the defender that was called a charge.) He is not resembling anything close to how he looked in the high school all-star games last year. He's far exceeded my expectations so far.

4. We scored 99 points with only 4 made threes. That's pretty astounding.

[hsheffield]

Good summary. I'll just add a couple things:

1. Re: Grayson - At the very beginning of the game, I think I heard Shulman say that Grayson has been dealing with a sore wrist. Did anyone else hear that? If so, that might explain the cold shooting - he really was way off on several of those threes.

2. No one in this thread has mentioned Grayson's explosive drive and dunk in the first half. That was nasty. It wasn't quite at the level of his UNLV dunk last year, but it wasn't too far off.

3. I have to strongly disagree with anyone who is unhappy with Duval's play. I thought he was really good tonight. The assists to TOs in the box score don't look great on paper, but he was getting to the basket pretty much at will. (And for what it's worth, the one turnover of his that I can recall off the top of my head was a pathetic flop by the defender that was called a charge.) He is not resembling anything close to how he looked in the high school all-star games last year. He's far exceeded my expectations so far.

4. We scored 99 points with only 4 made threes. That's pretty astounding.

yes, I heard the wrist comment.

[Saratoga2]

The missed free throws was all Bagley. Carter was 2-2, Allen 9-11, Duval 7-9, Trent 6-6, DeLaurier 1-2, and then Bagley at 6-12.

I think you're right about O'Connell. I think come league time neither O'Connell or Goldwire will be getting more than 1-3 minutes a game if it's close and that'll only be if Allen, Trent, or Duval is in big foul trouble.

Your assumption is that O'connell will not get stronger and his defense won't improve much. I would take the more positive approach that he will gain strength and his defense will get much better as he is a real bb player with a high IQ for the game. His offensive instincts are already very good. I think you are discounting his potential to help the team this year.

[dukelifer]

Your assumption is that O'connell will not get stronger and his defense won't improve much. I would take the more positive approach that he will gain strength and his defense will get much better as he is a real bb player with a high IQ for the game. His offensive instincts are already very good. I think you are discounting his potential to help the team this year.

The kid is instant O and is not afraid. I continued to be impressed with his handle and passing. He can play with the big boys. The defensive intensity needs to be stronger for the whole team so Javin provides that spark off the bench - but O'Connell will be needed in certain games going forward.

[Henderson]

I could be wrong but in 'general' people on DBR don't like Duval.

What's the basis for this? Am I in some exclusive club for liking him? Do I get a hat or t-shirt or something?

[OldPhiKap]

I could be wrong but in 'general' people on DBR don't like Duval.

Wait what?

[weezie]

In 3-2-1...

[weezie]

One of weezie's favorite acc arseclown refs (ayres? eades?) T'd K up one time a few years ago for walking away from him while clapping his hands as he returned to the Duke huddle. :mad:


Eades and Rog...I should have their glam shots on the inside of my locker. We're always chastised to steer clear of blaming the refs but after years of watching them, it's easy to spot their tempers. The college game is played at the mercy of the refs and the inconsistencies are unavoidable but gimme a break on the 'tude.

[NashvilleDevil]

I could be wrong but in 'general' people on DBR don't like Duval.

What the heck does this even mean?

[grad_devil]

I could be wrong but in 'general' people on DBR don't like Duval.

I don't get that sentiment. If that is the sentiment, then I strongly disagree.

[camion]

I could be wrong but in 'general' people on DBR don't like UNC.

Fixed. No need to thank me. :)

[TruBlu]

Good summary. I'll just add a couple things:

1. Re: Grayson - At the very beginning of the game, I think I heard Shulman say that Grayson has been dealing with a sore wrist. Did anyone else hear that? If so, that might explain the cold shooting - he really was way off on several of those threes.


In either the Southern or Furman game, Grayson was holding his arm (left one, I think) gingerly up against his body as he headed to the bench during a time-out. Nobody on the in-game thread mentioned it, nor did the announcers, so I wrote it off as my paranoid imagination. "Paranoia strikes deep", but in this one instance, maybe I ain't as crazy as I seem.

If indeed he has an injured wrist, please recover quickly. We need his 3 point shot to get right.

[Furniture]

What's the basis for this? Am I in some exclusive club for liking him? Do I get a hat or t-shirt or something?

It means in general he gets more 'I am concerned about Duval' comments vs. Duval did well or Duval was great comments. In short he is not getting the credit he deserves IMHO.

[fuse]

While I would rather see 30 point blowouts and a lot of bench play against overmatched opponents, the team is learning how to win.
It’s not pretty, and it just may be more valuable than watching how the 1999 team steamrollered everyone.

Duval is really showing poise, control, ball savvy, defense, and knowing when to pick his moments. I also admire his toughness, he refuses to back down to an opponent.

Carter and Bagley were amazing again, and my hope is what we saw tonight from Bolden is an indication of being healthy again.

Surprised we did not see much DeLaurier tonight.

Hard game to watch, hopefully a good learning experience for the team.

[slower]

I could be wrong but in 'general' people on DBR don't like Duval.

Seriously. What the H are you talking about? I've seen nothing but love for him lately.

[indy1duke]

Yes, Grayson's poor outside shooting is certainly explained by a wrist injury sustained during the MSU game, and his stats on 3 point shooting since MSU back that up (2 for 16). I suspect his shooting will improve once his wrist improves or he adjusts to shooting better while experiencing pain. The fact that he had that vicious dunk yesterday tells me he is not being overly cautious in protecting the wrist. We are fortunate to have such a good team that we can withstand injuries to Marvin in the MSU game and Grayson's injury and still win. I am hopeful that today Grayson starts hitting 3s, because Bamba won't be outside blocking three point shots and after watching the first half of the Butler/Texas game it seemed to me that today will be a defensive grind it out game where points are cherished.

Put me in the camp of being impressed with AOC and believing he will continue to see time throughout the year. He understands the game and that is hard to teach. He is often in the right place for a rebound or defense and he is a good offensive player. We will need someone who is a threat to make the open three point shot and still contribute in other areas of the game.

Did anyone else wonder why didn't break the PS press with the intent to score?

I still remember the Grant Hill days where we licked our chops at a full court press. Wasn't it against MD that we went over the top repeatedly for dunks?

[slower]

No. But they will play more teams that will try to physically man-handle them and try to provoke a reaction from Allen, especially as long as the officials let them get away with it.

I'm actually getting pretty worried about Grayson's ability to keep his cool all season, in the face of calculated provocation. We're only 6 games in and he's been harassed to the point of reaction (or near-reaction) twice. What happens when we run into Leonard Hamilton's thug-ball, or Wake? I think we underestimate just HOW much abuse (physical and otherwise) this poor kid will have to suffer. As I've stated before, we need guys who will have his back physically, because Grayson is being given a smaller margin for error/reaction/self-protection than anybody else.

[ChillinDuke]

In addition, their one man wrecking crew picked up his fourth foul as a technical, then got another technical as he was sitting at the scorer’s table to check back in. Odd. And then the kid was losing it on the sideline (not like GA last year, but still pretty out of control).

At least he was losing it on split screen. As much as I hate the concept, at least it was equal treatment to Grayson last year.

- Chillin

[OldPhiKap]

At least he was losing it on split screen. As much as I hate the concept, at least it was equal treatment to Grayson last year.

- Chillin

Agreed.

And to be somewhat fair, P St. was taking a few unintentional elbows under the boards, which is what happens when a 6’5” guy goes to rebound with a few 6’11” guys. None of those were called. I think they got frustrated that we were as physical as them. And after really outplaying us for 25 or 30 minutes, it was starting to slip away.

Carter is a really physical player down low. Grayson is physical on the wing. Bagley is big and quick. Bolden is big in the middle of that zone. I expect a lot of chippy games this year. Wait until FSU rolls into town for example.

But the kid lost it, for sure. He was cussing after the fifth and had to be restrained by a coach and several players. Would love to know what he said to earn his fifth.

[wavedukefan70s]

In either the Southern or Furman game, Grayson was holding his arm (left one, I think) gingerly up against his body as he headed to the bench during a time-out. Nobody on the in-game thread mentioned it, nor did the announcers, so I wrote it off as my paranoid imagination. "Paranoia strikes deep", but in this one instance, maybe I ain't as crazy as I seem.

If indeed he has an injured wrist, please recover quickly. We need his 3 point shot to get right.

I did the same .actually thought oh no at first.

[budwom]

While I don't particularly like the Portland State lads, I think we should thank them for exposing some things about the team so they can be worked on. You learn a lot less when you
trample a team from the opening tip. All in all a very good and useful experience for the team, if not an altogether enjoyable one.

Very impressed not only with Duval, but his shooting stroke tells me he can be a solid shooter despite some bad shooting games thus far.

Also happy for Bolden, some important, critical, well played minutes.

[Billy Dat]

Duval is really showing poise, control, ball savvy, defense, and knowing when to pick his moments. I also admire his toughness, he refuses to back down to an opponent.

I feel the same. I was worried that Trevon would be eclipsed by Bagley, Grayson and Carter early in the season, that it would frustrate him, and he’d try to do too much (e.g. flashy dribbling, unsmart drives, forced outside shots, etc.). So far, he’s been everything fuse described above and as important to the team as anyone. I can feel his leadership out there, and his poise and equanimity is a big part of it.

The Portland State strategy was initially smart but they committed so many dumb fouls. North was really hurting us but his 3rd (trying to punch the ball away from Bagley when the play was over) 4th (hitting Carter after a rebound) and 5th (getting T’d while waiting to check in) were so DUMB. It was like they were looking for an excuse to lose rather than tryjng to win.

Also excited about Bolden’s play. He looked more comfortable and effective than I think I have seen him in a Duke uniform.

[Henderson]

While I don't particularly like the Portland State lads, I think we should thank them for exposing some things about the team so they can be worked on. You learn a lot less when you
trample a team from the opening tip. All in all a very good and useful experience for the team, if not an altogether enjoyable one.


Agreed. I'll also say that the team showed that the hack-a-Duke strategy is not a winning strategy. We have a lot of guys who can score, and an opponent only has so many fouls to give before its team is degraded in a decisive way.

PSU was an interesting test of this, because they intentionally play so many players and spread the fouls around. Their coach (and team) comes from JuCo, where you have to play the whole bench or face a revolt, because all the players need PT to get to Division 1. Most of our opponents won't have enough rotation players to employ that strategy.

The danger is in end-of-game situations when the score is close. That would make me nervous if our FT shooting were horrible. But it's not. And we showed against MSU that the team can beat another good team with MB3 on the bench.

[gam7]

One of weezie's favorite acc arseclown refs (ayres? eades?) T'd K up one time a few years ago for walking away from him while clapping his hands as he returned to the Duke huddle. :mad:


Eades and Rog...

Ayres-clowns?


I am hopeful that today Grayson starts hitting 3s, because Bamba won't be outside blocking three point shots and after watching the first half of the Butler/Texas game it seemed to me that today will be a defensive grind it out game where points are cherished.

Ah, but this is one of the beautiful things about our roster this year - we should be able to UCONN ('04) other teams for a change. I don't remember ever having had that luxury. Bamba will foul out.

[uh_no]

Agreed. I'll also say that the team showed that the hack-a-Duke strategy is not a winning strategy.

I'm not so sure. Southern and now hack-u have employed it for large segments of the game with pretty decent results. the games would have likely been further out of hand had they played "straight up".

So we have two extremely overmatched teams who were able to stay in the game because of their strategy. If I were some scrub ACC team, I'd be saying "boy, if we can foul just a little less because we're slightly more athletic, we might be able to beat these guys"

Someone posted before that the keys to beating duke are

1) limit turnovers
2) hack duke to temper the pace and lower duke's efficiency
3) hope to shoot the lights out
4) hope duke doesn't

I think it takes all 4, and I think carter and bagley and bolden are just too good for a defense to hope to stop them without fouling.

We're going to be shooting a lot of FTs this year.

[BandAlum83]

yes, I heard the wrist comment.

I noticed after a play in the MSU game that Grayson was holding his wrist and moving it around. He went on for 37 so I figured it was nothing.

[Henderson]

I'm not so sure. Southern and now hack-u have employed it for large segments of the game with pretty decent results. the games would have likely been further out of hand had they played "straight up".

So we have two extremely overmatched teams who were able to stay in the game because of their strategy. If I were some scrub ACC team, I'd be saying "boy, if we can foul just a little less because we're slightly more athletic, we might be able to beat these guys"



Fair point. But both Southern and PSU lost by double figures employing that strategy.

The challenge for opposing coaches going forward will be to make that a winning strategy. It smells of desperation to me. We haven't seen it work so far. Games are 40 minutes long.

[Troublemaker]

Did anyone else wonder why didn't break the PS press with the intent to score?

We did in the first half, and it led to a slew of careless turnovers by us. Portland St was actually more comfortable playing at a fast pace than us, as they scored off our turnovers when we tried to play fast AND generally they scored in transition even when we didn't turn the ball over.

The zone helped to slow the pace down and also to simplify defensive transition assignments (as instead of communicating in transition which man to pick up, we ran to our spot on the floor in the zone), and then we started to control the game.

If we were to have a rematch with Portland St in March, I think we'll be much more comfortable playing at that hectic pace by then. But in November, and since Portland St has played really fast for three seasons now, it's not too disappointing that they got the better of it at that pace.

[uh_no]

Fair point. But both Southern and PSU lost by double figures employing that strategy.

The challenge for opposing coaches going forward will be to make that a winning strategy. It smells of desperation to me. We haven't seen it work so far. Games are 40 minutes long.

adding a substantial amount of talent over southern or PSU makes that a much more approachable task

[Saratoga2]

I'm actually getting pretty worried about Grayson's ability to keep his cool all season, in the face of calculated provocation. We're only 6 games in and he's been harassed to the point of reaction (or near-reaction) twice. What happens when we run into Leonard Hamilton's thug-ball, or Wake? I think we underestimate just HOW much abuse (physical and otherwise) this poor kid will have to suffer. As I've stated before, we need guys who will have his back physically, because Grayson is being given a smaller margin for error/reaction/self-protection than anybody else.

I agree with these observations as it seemed like Grayson was on the verge of overreacting. The clapping and the talk, the look on his face and the reaction on the floor all tell me that PS's thugorama did actually get into his head. Coach K needs to sit and have a discussion with him although I am certain he knows what is likely to occur in many of the games when we outmatch the opponent.

[duke79]

Glad this game is over and Duke won and no major injuries. Portland State is a very dirty team! The refs let the game get out of hand. I'm surprised Coach K was not more furious and vocal about the lack of calls on flagrant fouls.

[uh_no]

Glad this game is over and Duke won and no major injuries. Portland State is a very dirty team! The refs let the game get out of hand. I'm surprised Coach K was not more furious and vocal about the lack of calls on flagrant fouls.

eh. i don't think most of the fouls in a vacuum were flagrant.

Other than that, I'm not sure what more we can ask of the refs when we fouled out what, 5 guys? and two more had 4? and they had at least 2 technicals? sounds like pretty much exactly what you hope for when you run into a team like that.

[Saratoga2]

Duval is really showing poise, control, ball savvy, defense, and knowing when to pick his moments. I also admire his toughness, he refuses to back down to an opponent.


I am very pleased with Duval and perhaps he is one of the few guards we have had with the speed and quickness to breakdown and get past defenders. That said, he is a freshman and there were a couple of times against PS when he tried to finish with a slam dunk when he had other options. As he gains experience, he could show more maturity and pass up the spectacular play for a more effective one. While he and Bagley are truly great young players, I expect them to get even better at finishing around the basket as the season progresses.

[WHOneedsSOX]

Your assumption is that O'connell will not get stronger and his defense won't improve much. I would take the more positive approach that he will gain strength and his defense will get much better as he is a real bb player with a high IQ for the game. His offensive instincts are already very good. I think you are discounting his potential to help the team this year.

My assumption was based on the fact that Coach K plays his 6-7 guys once league starts. Allen barely saw PT his freshman year and I think he was ahead of where O'Connell is now. Although it is very possible of course that Trent also struggles at times throughout the season causing Coach K to turn to O'Connell.

[WHOneedsSOX]

I'm actually getting pretty worried about Grayson's ability to keep his cool all season, in the face of calculated provocation. We're only 6 games in and he's been harassed to the point of reaction (or near-reaction) twice. What happens when we run into Leonard Hamilton's thug-ball, or Wake? I think we underestimate just HOW much abuse (physical and otherwise) this poor kid will have to suffer. As I've stated before, we need guys who will have his back physically, because Grayson is being given a smaller margin for error/reaction/self-protection than anybody else.

I mentioned it twice, apologies if you already saw it already, but a reporter on Twitter mentioned Allen was trying to rile up the Duke crowd after his technical and Coach K had to yell at him to shut up and was visibly upset with Allen.

[Hancock 4 Duke]

I mentioned it twice, apologies if you already saw it already, but a reporter on Twitter mentioned Allen was trying to rile up the Duke crowd after his technical and Coach K had to yell at him to shut up and was visibly upset with Allen.

Yes I remember this. I saw Grayson looking to the crowd and Coach K gave him a "wtf" look and told him to stop it.

[rickshawboycall911]

I waiting for Gary Trent Jr. to bring more energy to the team. He just looks soft out there

[jv001]

I'm actually getting pretty worried about Grayson's ability to keep his cool all season, in the face of calculated provocation. We're only 6 games in and he's been harassed to the point of reaction (or near-reaction) twice. What happens when we run into Leonard Hamilton's thug-ball, or Wake? I think we underestimate just HOW much abuse (physical and otherwise) this poor kid will have to suffer. As I've stated before, we need guys who will have his back physically, because Grayson is being given a smaller margin for error/reaction/self-protection than anybody else.

I missed most of the game as I was at my son's for Thanksgiving. I was listening to the game on the radio coming home and I told my wife that we need one of Duke's football players on the team that can perform a Dave Budd on the opponents best player. Dave was a thug type player that made life miserable for a team that played dirty against his Deacons. I'm really concerned that Grayson is getting some really dirty shots to his body and I put some of the blame on ESPN for the coverage Grayson got last season, when other players across the land did worse things but nothing much was said about it. I wish JJ would have a good talk with him about how to keep his cool. JJ received lots of hard contact while at Duke. GoDuke!

[Kedsy]

Fair point. But both Southern and PSU lost by double figures employing that strategy.

The challenge for opposing coaches going forward will be to make that a winning strategy. It smells of desperation to me. We haven't seen it work so far. Games are 40 minutes long.

Duke should have beaten Southern by 40 points, Portland State maybe by 30. We won by 17 and 18. I understand this kind of scoring math doesn't really work, but to me it sounds like that strategy could be worth 10 to 20 points. If we play a team we should "only" beat by 5 or 10, and they employ this strategy, it may not smell so desperate.

[slower]

I missed most of the game as I was at my son's for Thanksgiving. I was listening to the game on the radio coming home and I told my wife that we need one of Duke's football players on the team that can perform a Dave Budd on the opponents best player. Dave was a thug type player that made life miserable for a team that played dirty against his Deacons. I'm really concerned that Grayson is getting some really dirty shots to his body and I put some of the blame on ESPN for the coverage Grayson got last season, when other players across the land did worse things but nothing much was said about it. I wish JJ would have a good talk with him about how to keep his cool. JJ received lots of hard contact while at Duke. GoDuke!

Grayson's only human, after all. While Duke gets everybody's best shot, he gets their "worst" shot. I just can't imagine he'll last the whole season without some kind of explosion - or worse, some kind of injury. I mean, he got hit hard going to the basket at least 3 times that I counted last game. Just like last season, this kid has to operate under a handicap that I've never seen before. Never.

I want his jersey in the rafters SO badly, doubly so because of what he's had to endure.

[BD80]

I noticed after a play in the MSU game that Grayson was holding his wrist and moving it around. He went on for 37 so I figured it was nothing.

He wore the sucker out ...

[grad_devil]

Did anybody notice the strange inbounds violation called against Marvin Bagley with ~3:30 to go against Portland State?

I swear I saw the ref motion to Marvin that he could run the baseline (he couldn't - it should have been a spot throw-in after an out-of-bounds call), and then hand Marvin the ball. At that time, Marvin proceeds to run the baseline and is called for traveling.

He protested immediately, of course, and K burns a timeout. K and Capel calm him down but then K kindly addresses the ref and, according to my (poor) lip-reading skills, says "You told him he could run!".

It's of no consequence, of course, but I thought it was funny. I've posted a link to the YouTube video (Start at 1:30:59) or you can use the embedded one below and scrub to 1:30:59.

Thoughts? Did anybody else notice this in real time?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aLmO2BwN8Aw&feature=youtu.be&t=1h30m59s (Direct link to time code 1:30:59)

Embedded video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aLmO2BwN8Aw&feature=youtu.be&t=1h30m59s

[flyingdutchdevil]

1) Great win. No surprise that Duke can out a little sluggish. And absolutely no surprise that Duke's defense looked so damn lost. But we dealt with a hostile environment very well. Proud of this team.

2) This team has another gear in the last 5 min of the game. Our defense will never be elite. I get that. But, when these guys wanna play D, they can. Everything clicks in that last 5 min: lock down D, excellent rebounding, amazing shot making, smart passing, etc. All the shots that you want players to take they take and all the shots that you want players to not take they don't. I'm not sure I understand why we are so good in the last 5 min. I don't think it's maturity as much as it is the other team is so wiped out trying to guard our starters for 35 minutes.

3) 3pt alert: It will click for Trent Jr soon. Winslow's 3pt shooting in college was a fluke. Trent Jr seems to be the opposite: he's not making a lot of shots despite being very capable. Hell, the dude is shooting a ridiculous 96.2% from the FT line! That clearly isn't sustainable, but he's clearly an elite shooter from the line, meaning he's a capable (and possibly elite) shooter from the 3pt line. It will come. Side note: I love Trent's game. He's the fifth offensive banana on this team but he never stops moving. He cuts like crazy. I love it.

4) Duval is very underappreciated. Yes- he shoots too much from the 3pt line. Yes- it looks like he's out of control at times. Yes- he sometimes makes bonehead mistakes. But keep in mind that he's playing the most demanding and difficult position in college basketball. For Coach K, who demands more from his PGs than any other position. Outside of the PSU and UT games, Duval has 9 turnovers. 9 TURNOVERS! Against 50 assists. He's also such a capable defender. He is, by far, my emotional crush on this team.

5) We have defensive potential. I love our backcourt defenders. Trent is looking like the best defensive backcourt player, but Duval isn't far behind. They can form a really formidable defensive team. I think Grayson is below-average on D and will never be elite, but he has some good positioning. Bagley and Carter clearly have a ton to learn on the defensive end, but they are so damn strong and big. Hopefully the "D" in December stands for defense.

6) Bagley is unfair. The eye test showed he had an okay game. Turnovers, got burned on D, fouled a bunch...but he somehow got 23 points and 10 rebounds. Also, his demeanor is unbelievable. His talent is the main reason to like the guy, but he does nothing to piss anyone off. When he makes a great play, he doesn't woof. When he has a great defensive play, he doesn't stare down the opponent. When things get chippy, he doesn't overreact. Which brings me to...

7) Carter needs to keep his emotions in check. Along with Bagley scoring 20+ points & gathering 10+ boards, Duval having one "holy hell" pass, and Duke turning it up in the last 5 min, I can guarantee that Carter will have a cheap foul or some type or retaliatory play. I can recall at least a half dozen chippy plays that Carter has been apart of. He looks so mature and immature all at the same time. His demeanor is the complete opposite of Bags. I hope the coaching staff tells him to tone it down, because it will get us into trouble at one point in the season.

[uh_no]

1) Great win. No surprise that Duke can out a little sluggish. And absolutely no surprise that Duke's defense looked so damn lost. But we dealt with a hostile environment very well. Proud of this team.

2) This team has another gear in the last 5 min of the game. Our defense will never be elite. I get that. But, when these guys wanna play D, they can. Everything clicks in that last 5 min: lock down D, excellent rebounding, amazing shot making, smart passing, etc. All the shots that you want players to take they take and all the shots that you want players to not take they don't. I'm not sure I understand why we are so good in the last 5 min. I don't think it's maturity as much as it is the other team is so wiped out trying to guard our starters for 35 minutes.

3) 3pt alert: It will click for Trent Jr soon. Winslow's 3pt shooting in college was a fluke. Trent Jr seems to be the opposite: he's not making a lot of shots despite being very capable. Hell, the dude is shooting a ridiculous 96.2% from the FT line! That clearly isn't sustainable, but he's clearly an elite shooter from the line, meaning he's a capable (and possibly elite) shooter from the 3pt line. It will come. Side note: I love Trent's game. He's the fifth offensive banana on this team but he never stops moving. He cuts like crazy. I love it.

4) Duval is very underappreciated. Yes- he shoots too much from the 3pt line. Yes- it looks like he's out of control at times. Yes- he sometimes makes bonehead mistakes. But keep in mind that he's playing the most demanding and difficult position in college basketball. For Coach K, who demands more from his PGs than any other position. Outside of the PSU and UT games, Duval has 9 turnovers. 9 TURNOVERS! Against 50 assists. He's also such a capable defender. He is, by far, my emotional crush on this team.

5) We have defensive potential. I love our backcourt defenders. Trent is looking like the best defensive backcourt player, but Duval isn't far behind. They can form a really formidable defensive team. I think Grayson is below-average on D and will never be elite, but he has some good positioning. Bagley and Carter clearly have a ton to learn on the defensive end, but they are so damn strong and big. Hopefully the "D" in December stands for defense.

6) Bagley is unfair. The eye test showed he had an okay game. Turnovers, got burned on D, fouled a bunch...but he somehow got 23 points and 10 rebounds. Also, his demeanor is unbelievable. His talent is the main reason to like the guy, but he does nothing to piss anyone off. When he makes a great play, he doesn't woof. When he has a great defensive play, he doesn't stare down the opponent. When things get chippy, he doesn't overreact. Which brings me to...

7) Carter needs to keep his emotions in check. Along with Bagley scoring 20+ points & gathering 10+ boards, Duval having one "holy hell" pass, and Duke turning it up in the last 5 min, I can guarantee that Carter will have a cheap foul or some type or retaliatory play. I can recall at least a half dozen chippy plays that Carter has been apart of. He looks so mature and immature all at the same time. His demeanor is the complete opposite of Bags. I hope the coaching staff tells him to tone it down, because it will get us into trouble at one point in the season.

wrong thread?

[Eternal Outlaw]

Did anybody notice the strange inbounds violation called against Marvin Bagley with ~3:30 to go against Portland State?

I swear I saw the ref motion to Marvin that he could run the baseline (he couldn't - it should have been a spot throw-in after an out-of-bounds call), and then hand Marvin the ball. At that time, Marvin proceeds to run the baseline and is called for traveling.

He protested immediately, of course, and K burns a timeout. K and Capel calm him down but then K kindly addresses the ref and, according to my (poor) lip-reading skills, says "You told him he could run!".

It's of no consequence, of course, but I thought it was funny. I've posted a link to the YouTube video (Start at 1:30:59) or you can use the embedded one below and scrub to 1:30:59.

Thoughts? Did anybody else notice this in real time?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aLmO2BwN8Aw&feature=youtu.be&t=1h30m59s (Direct link to time code 1:30:59)

Embedded video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aLmO2BwN8Aw&feature=youtu.be&t=1h30m59s

It kind of looks like the hand signal that means you can run the baseline but hard to tell. In attendance I was baffled at why Bagley was doing running the baseline but it was immediately clear he thought he was told he could run it. The ref K talked to walked to the under basket guy and asked him if he said he could and that ref shook his head no and said something that looked like I did not. Whether or not he's lying to save face is really up to if he actually said anything that Bagley heard or if Bagley thought that was the run hand signal and the ref was signally something else.

What's funny about the TV replay to me is that tool behind the PS bench that wants a technical foul called as if Bagley went ballistic on the ref or something.

[gam7]

It kind of looks like the hand signal that means you can run the baseline but hard to tell. In attendance I was baffled at why Bagley was doing running the baseline but it was immediately clear he thought he was told he could run it. The ref K talked to walked to the under basket guy and asked him if he said he could and that ref shook his head no and said something that looked like I did not. Whether or not he's lying to save face is really up to if he actually said anything that Bagley heard or if Bagley thought that was the run hand signal and the ref was signally something else.

What's funny about the TV replay to me is that tool behind the PS bench that wants a technical foul called as if Bagley went ballistic on the ref or something.

I also noticed that very shortly after that (looks like around 1:38:40 on the video), Bagley did not run the baseline in a situation where he clearly was allowed to (after a made basket). I thought his decision to not run was influenced by the call against him just a couple of minutes earlier.