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moonpie23
11-23-2017, 10:32 AM
i know there was one, but i can't find it.....the mods can merge this if they need to, then i'll be able to find it :)



anyway, Loved watching westbrook serve up a hot cup of stfu to the dubs last night.......especially getting into durant's face.....

you can tell the dubs know they're going to lose when they start that annoying head-shaking...like "no, this game doesn't count"

JasonEvans
11-23-2017, 11:38 AM
The Dukies in the NBA thread has generally been home to all the NBA chatter thus far. Perhaps we should just have that one thread for all NBA conversation.

BD80
11-23-2017, 11:59 AM
i know there was one, but i can't find it....the mods can merge this if they need to, then i'll be able to find it :)



anyway, Loved watching westbrook serve up a hot cup of stfu to the dubs last night....especially getting into durant's face....

you can tell the dubs know they're going to lose when they start that annoying head-shaking...like "no, this game doesn't count"

Paul George is a great addition with Westbrook, Melo is the cherry. When Melo is engaged, he can still be a really good basketball player.

Found myself rooting for OKC; the Warriors are easy to dislike, they whine incessantly

kshepinthehouse
11-29-2017, 09:49 PM
Paul George is a great addition with Westbrook, Melo is the cherry. When Melo is engaged, he can still be a really good basketball player.

Found myself rooting for OKC; the Warriors are easy to dislike, they whine incessantly

Since that win the Thunder have now lost three in a row.

elvis14
11-30-2017, 12:42 AM
Didn't care much for Westbrook's woofing (and I'm a big fan of his amazing game). The GSW are easy to like, they play fantastic, fun to watch basketball (not sure about the whole whining thing...they don't do it any more than other NBA teams).

It'll be interesting to see if/when the GSW hit their stride this year. I'm watching them play the Lakers right now and have seen more of their games and they really don't have it going yet. If they are going to create a gap between themselves and the rest of the NBA, they are going to have to find that next level more consistently (and then find the level above that where they are just fantastic).

JasonEvans
12-13-2017, 02:25 PM
Jah gets criticized for his D... but Karl Anthony Towns needs to get some serious ribbing for this...

https://i.kinja-img.com/gawker-media/image/upload/s--nOXLPJ5F--/c_scale,fl_progressive,q_80,w_800/yqdzygwwqus3iplblyhq.gif

luvdahops
12-13-2017, 04:25 PM
Didn't care much for Westbrook's woofing (and I'm a big fan of his amazing game). The GSW are easy to like, they play fantastic, fun to watch basketball (not sure about the whole whining thing...they don't do it any more than other NBA teams).

It'll be interesting to see if/when the GSW hit their stride this year. I'm watching them play the Lakers right now and have seen more of their games and they really don't have it going yet. If they are going to create a gap between themselves and the rest of the NBA, they are going to have to find that next level more consistently (and then find the level above that where they are just fantastic).

Draymond Green is in a class by himself when it comes whining (in addition to being one of the league's chippiest payers generally). He vocally protests every single foul that is called on him. Steph and Iggy have gotten a bit whinier, or at least more petulant, in recent years, too.

yancem
12-13-2017, 05:09 PM
Jah gets criticized for his D... but Karl Anthony Towns needs to get some serious ribbing for this...

https://i.kinja-img.com/gawker-media/image/upload/s--nOXLPJ5F--/c_scale,fl_progressive,q_80,w_800/yqdzygwwqus3iplblyhq.gif

I'm not sure where (or even when to be honest) I read this but at one point last season there was an article about bad defensive players and what was very interesting to me was that Towns was rated lower than Okafor and Wiggins was lower rated than Parker. Both cases are interesting because leading up to the draft Towns and Wiggins were supposed to be more raw offensively but much better defensively than Okafor and Parker. But was is really facinating is that the difference offensively between Towns and Okafor their rookie year was not overly significant and both were fairly miserable defensively yet Towns was given time and reps to continue to develop while Okafor was condemmed to end of the bench. Now I understand that Okafor had to contend with Embiid and Simmons but still. Someone who averages 17.5 ppg as a rookie should have gotten more pt the following year or traded while he still had value. I really hope that he gets a fair chance with the Nets and can resurrect his career.

IrishDevil
12-14-2017, 01:13 PM
Jah gets criticized for his D... but Karl Anthony Towns needs to get some serious ribbing for this...

https://i.kinja-img.com/gawker-media/image/upload/s--nOXLPJ5F--/c_scale,fl_progressive,q_80,w_800/yqdzygwwqus3iplblyhq.gif

No shot fake, no head fake, no reason why Towns would think that this was the appropriate defensive approach. It honestly looks like somebody playing a video game and getting the buttons mixed up.

Also, Nice assist for JJ, though I wish it didn't come at expense of Tyus.

Billy Dat
12-15-2017, 09:11 AM
The rise of Houston has added some real juice to the race for the Western Conference title, and, therefore, the overall title. With defense that has risen to Top 5 (Holy Jeff Bzdelik!), Harden seeming to get better and better, comfort shooting 40+ 3s as a team each game and making 37% of them....the concern now seems to be D'Antoni being smart and getting his main rotation enough rest to keep them healthy. In that respect, the Warriors are way ahead of them knowing that they need to be ready for May/June.

flyingdutchdevil
12-15-2017, 10:10 AM
The rise of Houston has added some real juice to the race for the Western Conference title, and, therefore, the overall title. With defense that has risen to Top 5 (Holy Jeff Bzdelik!), Harden seeming to get better and better, comfort shooting 40+ 3s as a team each game and making 37% of them...the concern now seems to be D'Antoni being smart and getting his main rotation enough rest to keep them healthy. In that respect, the Warriors are way ahead of them knowing that they need to be ready for May/June.

But they have Chris Paul. So they're not getting past the second round :p

BD80
12-15-2017, 11:06 AM
The rise of Houston has added some real juice to the race for the Western Conference title, and, therefore, the overall title. With defense that has risen to Top 5 (Holy Jeff Bzdelik!), Harden seeming to get better and better, comfort shooting 40+ 3s as a team each game and making 37% of them...the concern now seems to be D'Antoni being smart and getting his main rotation enough rest to keep them healthy. In that respect, the Warriors are way ahead of them knowing that they need to be ready for May/June.

Curry's "injury" is just a part of a scheme to rest the key players?

Troublemaker
12-15-2017, 11:07 AM
The rise of Houston has added some real juice to the race for the Western Conference title, and, therefore, the overall title. With defense that has risen to Top 5 (Holy Jeff Bzdelik!), Harden seeming to get better and better, comfort shooting 40+ 3s as a team each game and making 37% of them...the concern now seems to be D'Antoni being smart and getting his main rotation enough rest to keep them healthy. In that respect, the Warriors are way ahead of them knowing that they need to be ready for May/June.

Houston probably is trying to get the 1 seed, though. At the same time, hopefully Chris Paul being healthy will reduce Harden's minutes a bit.

If the Warriors are healthy for the playoffs, the only interesting path would be for them to run this gauntlet:

OKC 1st round, Spurs conference semis, Rockets conference finals (Houston having homecourt advantage), and the East winner (probably the Cavs) in the Finals.

darthur
12-15-2017, 11:17 AM
Houston probably is trying to get the 1 seed, though. At the same time, hopefully Chris Paul being healthy will reduce Harden's minutes a bit.

If the Warriors are healthy for the playoffs, the only interesting path would be for them to run this gauntlet:

OKC 1st round, Spurs conference semis, Rockets conference finals (Houston having homecourt advantage), and the East winner (probably the Cavs) in the Finals.

Ouch -- that would be brutal. :(

I think the question you have to ask yourself is this: are the Warriors going all out? I think it's pretty safe to say the Rockets are. And 2-3 years ago, the Warriors also went all out in the regular season, and the playoffs were just more of the same. Last year was different. The Ws were not terribly locked in during the regular season, but then they turned it on during the last few weeks and the playoffs, becoming far better than they were. They also haven't looked very locked in this year for the most part. So will they be able to fix it during the playoffs again? If the answer is yes, I think they should still be considered a decent favorite over the Rockets. If not... well then the Rockets could shake some things up.

Same thing with Cleveland/Boston too, except there I'm 100% sure Cleveland will step it up during the playoffs. Short of significant injury, I cannot imagine anything in the regular season that would make Cleveland not the Eastern Conference playoff favorites.

Billy Dat
12-15-2017, 12:01 PM
Ouch -- that would be brutal. :(

I think the question you have to ask yourself is this: are the Warriors going all out? I think it's pretty safe to say the Rockets are. And 2-3 years ago, the Warriors also went all out in the regular season, and the playoffs were just more of the same. Last year was different. The Ws were not terribly locked in during the regular season, but then they turned it on during the last few weeks and the playoffs, becoming far better than they were. They also haven't looked very locked in this year for the most part. So will they be able to fix it during the playoffs again? If the answer is yes, I think they should still be considered a decent favorite over the Rockets. If not... well then the Rockets could shake some things up.

Same thing with Cleveland/Boston too, except there I'm 100% sure Cleveland will step it up during the playoffs. Short of significant injury, I cannot imagine anything in the regular season that would make Cleveland not the Eastern Conference playoff favorites.

The Warriors are definitely not going all out. I think the intriguing thing is that the Rockets improved defense, and game-changing use of, and ability to hit, the 3 means that in a 7 game series, they could, as you say, shake things up. Also true what FDD said about Chris Paul, and Harden hasn't exactly been a playoff wizard either. Still, it would be fun to have another Western Conference finals like OKC v Warriors in 2016.

CDu
12-19-2017, 08:51 AM
Break up the Bulls! No, they are still awful, but they have now won six in a row, undefeated since Mirotic returned from a broken face.

JasonEvans
12-19-2017, 01:54 PM
Break up the Bulls! No, they are still awful, but they have now won six in a row, undefeated since Mirotic returned from a broken face.

The fact that he broke that face on the fist of a teammate makes this all the more of an amazing story.

Of course, if your Bulls were doing what they are supposed to do, they would be losing a lot lot lot more than they are. #TankCity!!

The Pacers were supposed to also be in tank mode but someone forgot to tell the players and coaches.

Jason ďat least my Hawks know how to suck! #MarvinAytonDoncic, I donít careĒ Evans

Truth&Justise
12-19-2017, 02:01 PM
Jason ďat least my Hawks know how to suck! #MarvinAytonDoncic, I donít careĒ Evans

Is Schroeder+Prince+Collins+Bagley/Ayton/Doncic* the core to build around? Or does the plan require an additional year of tanking to add another potential star?


*Plus Sir Foster, obviously.

luvdahops
12-19-2017, 02:10 PM
The fact that he broke that face on the fist of a teammate makes this all the more of an amazing story.

Of course, if your Bulls were doing what they are supposed to do, they would be losing a lot lot lot more than they are. #TankCity!!

The Pacers were supposed to also be in tank mode but someone forgot to tell the players and coaches.

Jason ďat least my Hawks know how to suck! #MarvinAytonDoncic, I donít careĒ Evans

The Bulls actually have a pretty solid frontcourt between Markannen, Mirotic, Lopez and Portis, who has really taken to playing small ball 5. And point guard play is fairly solid as well, with Kris Dunn looking more like a lottery pick lately, though he'll never a good shooter, and Jerian Grant a decent fit in a backup role. But their current collection of wings (Holiday, Valentine, Nwaba, Zipser) are all more back end of the rotation guys, though assuming Zach Lavine comes back at full speed, he will give them one bona fide wing starter.

Most Bulls fans expect Lopez or Mirotic to be moved before the trade deadline, likely for picks. In the meantime, Mirotic is unlikely to maintain his current torrid pace. So it's a matter of time before the losing starts again in earnest.

drummerdevil
12-19-2017, 05:32 PM
Is Schroeder+Prince+Collins+Bagley/Ayton/Doncic* the core to build around? Or does the plan require an additional year of tanking to add another potential star?


*Plus Sir Foster, obviously.

I think with that team you aren't going to be good enough to bother not tanking. Imagine what Barrett will do in that lineup

JasonEvans
12-19-2017, 06:01 PM
Is Schroeder+Prince+Collins+Bagley/Ayton/Doncic* the core to build around? Or does the plan require an additional year of tanking to add another potential star?

Another year of tanking and another year for their youngsters to get better. That gets you to 2020, which is also the year Plumlee and Bazemore's contracts come off the books, freeing up more than $30 mil of cap space to bring in a quality free agent.

-Jason "yup, looking forward to 2020, that is what it is like to be a Hawks fan right now" Evans

Duke79UNLV77
12-19-2017, 09:27 PM
If you like a lot of incoherent talking over each other and then fake laughs, NBA TVís ďplayers onlyĒ broadcasts are for you.

awhom111
12-21-2017, 12:26 AM
The Bulls are playing so well right now that boxing gyms have seen a surge in interest for corporate team-building events.

Truth&Justise
12-21-2017, 05:37 PM
This is the first year Grant Hill will be eligible for election to the Naismith Hall of Fame.

List of all eligible candidates (http://www.hoophall.com/news/naismith-memorial-basketball-hall-of-fame-announces-eligible-candidates-for-the-class-of-2018/).

Other notable first-time candidates are Jason Kidd, Steve Nash, Ray Allen, Chauncey Billups and Rip Hamilton.

The finalists will be announced at the NBA All-Star game in February, and the entrants will be announced during the Final Four.

Grant Hill had a heck of an NBA career, despite the injuries. His relative lack of postseason success will hurt, but his candidacy is buoyed by his excellent college career and his gold medal. I think he has a great chance of making it.

Kidd and Nash seem like shoe-ins to me, and I think Ray Allen makes it as well.

EDIT: I figure if Grant makes it to the list of finalists then we can probably have a separate thread for that.

ChillinDuke
12-21-2017, 06:17 PM
This is the first year Grant Hill will be eligible for election to the Naismith Hall of Fame.

List of all eligible candidates (http://www.hoophall.com/news/naismith-memorial-basketball-hall-of-fame-announces-eligible-candidates-for-the-class-of-2018/).

Other notable first-time candidates are Jason Kidd, Steve Nash, Ray Allen, Chauncey Billups and Rip Hamilton.

The finalists will be announced at the NBA All-Star game in February, and the entrants will be announced during the Final Four.

Grant Hill had a heck of an NBA career, despite the injuries. His relative lack of postseason success will hurt, but his candidacy is buoyed by his excellent college career and his gold medal. I think he has a great chance of making it.

Kidd and Nash seem like shoe-ins to me, and I think Ray Allen makes it as well.

EDIT: I figure if Grant makes it to the list of finalists then we can probably have a separate thread for that.

For whatever it's worth (not much) this site lists HOF probabilities (https://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/hof_prob.html). Nash and Kidd are virtual certainties, as is Allen.

Grant is listed at 89% likely. I tend to think his college career, gold medal, broadcasting, and TV career will push him in.

Billups is at 84%. Rip is highly unlikely (2%).

- Chillin

CDu
01-02-2018, 07:22 PM
The Cavs get a shot in the arm tonight. Isaiah Thomas will make his debut. Just in time too. The Cavs had caught up to the Celtics recently, but have struggled over their last 5 (going 1-4).

JasonEvans
01-03-2018, 12:25 AM
The Cavs get a shot in the arm tonight. Isaiah Thomas will make his debut. Just in time too. The Cavs had caught up to the Celtics recently, but have struggled over their last 5 (going 1-4).

As good as Kyrie has been, if Thomas plays the rest of the season the way he played tonight (17 points in 19 minutes), I suspect the Cavs will be quite pleased with the trade (even if it appears the Nets pick won't be nearly as valuable as some had thought... not likely to be in the top 5, which is absolutely loaded in this draft).

JasonEvans
01-15-2018, 01:04 PM
Ok, we need to talk about this (https://deadspin.com/markelle-fultzs-shoulder-is-healed-but-his-jumper-is-ju-1822070907)...

https://i.kinja-img.com/gawker-media/image/upload/s--giEpa9sH--/c_scale,fl_progressive,q_80,w_800/ufiwvvuxwvc2vorulh6n.gif

That, my friends, is not a 6th grader learning how to shoot a jump shot. That is the Markelle Fultz, the #1 pick in the 2017 NBA Draft. And that is perhaps the ugliest jumpshot I have ever seen from an erstwhile professional basketball player. There's more video of his truly horrible shooting form here (https://www.sbnation.com/2018/1/14/16890698/markelle-fultz-jumpshot-update-not-good-shoulder-injury-76ers-practice-brett-brown).

I think we are in new territory here. This kid was a dynamic shooter a year ago (he hit 41% of his 3s in college) and has seemingly completely forgotten how to shoot a basketball. I just can't recall something like this happening.

To bring in a Duke angle, this would making the Fultz for Tatum (plus a high #1 pick) trade look lopsided even if Tatum wasn't looking like perhaps the best player in the 2017 draft. There is a non-zero chance that Fultz will never be a good basketball player ever again. I'm serious...

-Jason "I'd say this is a career ending offense for Bryan Colangelo, but I don't think anyone could have seen this coming" Evans

kshepinthehouse
01-15-2018, 01:09 PM
Ok, we need to talk about this (https://deadspin.com/markelle-fultzs-shoulder-is-healed-but-his-jumper-is-ju-1822070907)...

https://i.kinja-img.com/gawker-media/image/upload/s--giEpa9sH--/c_scale,fl_progressive,q_80,w_800/ufiwvvuxwvc2vorulh6n.gif

That, my friends, is not a 6th grader learning how to shoot a jump shot. That is the Markelle Fultz, the #1 pick in the 2017 NBA Draft. And that is perhaps the ugliest jumpshot I have ever seen from an erstwhile professional basketball player. There's more video of his truly horrible shooting form here (https://www.sbnation.com/2018/1/14/16890698/markelle-fultz-jumpshot-update-not-good-shoulder-injury-76ers-practice-brett-brown).

I think we are in new territory here. This kid was a dynamic shooter a year ago (he hit 41% of his 3s in college) and has seemingly completely forgotten how to shoot a basketball. I just can't recall something like this happening.

To bring in a Duke angle, this would making the Fultz for Tatum (plus a high #1 pick) trade look lopsided even if Tatum wasn't looking like perhaps the best player in the 2017 draft. There is a non-zero chance that Fultz will never be a good basketball player ever again. I'm serious...

-Jason "I'd say this is a career ending offense for Bryan Colangelo, but I don't think anyone could have seen this coming" Evans

Truly an interesting phenomenon. Iím hoping it has more to do with his shoulder and less with his brain but definitely agree with those who may think a large part of this is mental. I truly feel for the guy and maybe this is the first case of the ďyipsĒ I can remember in basketball. See Chuck Knoblauch

flyingdutchdevil
01-15-2018, 01:09 PM
Ok, we need to talk about this (https://deadspin.com/markelle-fultzs-shoulder-is-healed-but-his-jumper-is-ju-1822070907)...

https://i.kinja-img.com/gawker-media/image/upload/s--giEpa9sH--/c_scale,fl_progressive,q_80,w_800/ufiwvvuxwvc2vorulh6n.gif

That, my friends, is not a 6th grader learning how to shoot a jump shot. That is the Markelle Fultz, the #1 pick in the 2017 NBA Draft. And that is perhaps the ugliest jumpshot I have ever seen from an erstwhile professional basketball player. There's more video of his truly horrible shooting form here (https://www.sbnation.com/2018/1/14/16890698/markelle-fultz-jumpshot-update-not-good-shoulder-injury-76ers-practice-brett-brown).

I think we are in new territory here. This kid was a dynamic shooter a year ago (he hit 41% of his 3s in college) and has seemingly completely forgotten how to shoot a basketball. I just can't recall something like this happening.

To bring in a Duke angle, this would making the Fultz for Tatum (plus a high #1 pick) trade look lopsided even if Tatum wasn't looking like perhaps the best player in the 2017 draft. There is a non-zero chance that Fultz will never be a good basketball player ever again. I'm serious...

-Jason "I'd say this is a career ending offense for Bryan Colangelo, but I don't think anyone could have seen this coming" Evans

Ainge did. Not saying he knew that Fultz's jumper was broken, but he clearly knew that Tatum was the best prospect in the draft. That man is an absolute genius. This offseason, watch for the Celtics to cherry pick which ever All-Star they want (trade or sign-and-trade).

The Celtics are once again making everyone look foolish (well, everyone who wants to trade/associate themselves with the Celtics).

CDu
01-15-2018, 01:19 PM
Ainge did. Not saying he knew that Fultz's jumper was broken, but he clearly knew that Tatum was the best prospect in the draft. That man is an absolute genius. This offseason, watch for the Celtics to cherry pick which ever All-Star they want (trade or sign-and-trade).

The Celtics are once again making everyone look foolish (well, everyone who wants to trade/associate themselves with the Celtics).

Easy, tiger.

flyingdutchdevil
01-15-2018, 01:29 PM
Easy, tiger.

Do you disagree? How often does a GM trade a #1 pick to #3 when the whole world is saying there are two surefire All-Stars: Fultz and Ball?

I'm sure the Celts didn't think Tatum would be this good this early. And I'm sure they didn't think Fultz would be this broken.

But it's tough to look at a move the Celts did in the last 3 years and say, "that was a bad move". They even caught a massive break when Charlotte declined 5 picks so the Celts would move ahead and draft Winslow.

Given, I'd still love Bradley on this team. But that's just too many cooks in the kitchen.

I have a feeling the luck of the Irish is about to run out...

CDu
01-15-2018, 01:35 PM
Do you disagree? How often does a GM trade a #1 pick to #3 when the whole world is saying there are two surefire All-Stars: Fultz and Ball?

I'm sure the Celts didn't think Tatum would be this good this early. And I'm sure they didn't think Fultz would be this broken.

But it's tough to look at a move the Celts did in the last 3 years and say, "that was a bad move". They even caught a massive break when Charlotte declined 5 picks so the Celts would move ahead and draft Winslow.

Given, I'd still love Bradley on this team. But that's just too many cooks in the kitchen.

I have a feeling the luck of the Irish is about to run out...

I disagree with the idea that everyone who has dealt with the Celtics has been made to look foolish.

I think the jury is still out on a few things:
1. The dealing to get Irving and sign Hayward to a max deal stripped a ton of the depth and quality. It may work out. We'll see. But I don't think either of those trades made the other team look foolish.
2. While Ainge CERTAINLY hit on the Tatum pick/trade, his other draft picks in recent years have been fairly inconsistent.

Ainge deserves a ton of credit for fleecing the Nets years ago and for the Tatum trade. Not sure if we're in the "everything he touches is gold" territory yet, though.

JasonEvans
01-15-2018, 01:41 PM
Ainge deserves a ton of credit for fleecing the Nets years ago and for the Tatum trade. Not sure if we're in the "everything he touches is gold" territory yet, though.

I know he had to make moves to clear up cap space, but the Bradley for Morris trade is hardly a winner for Ainge. And signing Heyward could not have worked out worse (so far).

kshepinthehouse
01-15-2018, 01:43 PM
Even though the Celtics traded the pick they didnít force the 76ers to take Fultz did they?

BD80
01-15-2018, 04:31 PM
Ok, we need to talk about this (https://deadspin.com/markelle-fultzs-shoulder-is-healed-but-his-jumper-is-ju-1822070907)...

https://i.kinja-img.com/gawker-media/image/upload/s--giEpa9sH--/c_scale,fl_progressive,q_80,w_800/ufiwvvuxwvc2vorulh6n.gif

That, my friends, is not a 6th grader learning how to shoot a jump shot. That is the Markelle Fultz, the #1 pick in the 2017 NBA Draft. And that is perhaps the ugliest jumpshot I have ever seen from an erstwhile professional basketball player. There's more video of his truly horrible shooting form here (https://www.sbnation.com/2018/1/14/16890698/markelle-fultz-jumpshot-update-not-good-shoulder-injury-76ers-practice-brett-brown).

I think we are in new territory here. This kid was a dynamic shooter a year ago (he hit 41% of his 3s in college) and has seemingly completely forgotten how to shoot a basketball. I just can't recall something like this happening.

To bring in a Duke angle, this would making the Fultz for Tatum (plus a high #1 pick) trade look lopsided even if Tatum wasn't looking like perhaps the best player in the 2017 draft. There is a non-zero chance that Fultz will never be a good basketball player ever again. I'm serious...

-Jason "I'd say this is a career ending offense for Bryan Colangelo, but I don't think anyone could have seen this coming" Evans

Is he right handed or left handed?

DukieInBrasil
01-15-2018, 06:58 PM
I know he had to make moves to clear up cap space, but the Bradley for Morris trade is hardly a winner for Ainge. And signing Heyward could not have worked out worse (so far).

and that has absolutely nothing to do with Ainge. I'm not on the Midas-Ainge train, but he looks more genius by the game, vis-a-vis Kyrie for IT, who is playing mediocre basketball in his still short term return. Thomas may turn it around and play just as well as he was before, but we'll have to wait.

CDu
01-15-2018, 08:10 PM
and that has absolutely nothing to do with Ainge. I'm not on the Midas-Ainge train, but he looks more genius by the game, vis-a-vis Kyrie for IT, who is playing mediocre basketball in his still short term return. Thomas may turn it around and play just as well as he was before, but we'll have to wait.

To be fair, that wasnít a straight swap of Irving for Thomas (which would be a killing given the playersí respective ages). The Cavs got Crowder and a pick in the deal.

fraggler
01-16-2018, 12:56 PM
I have weird, sort of nightmares where I can't shoot a basketball. Either the ceiling is too low, or I can't remember how to release the ball after I jump. When I see Fultz shooting now, especially after having seen him in college, I feel like he is living my nightmare.

-jk
01-16-2018, 04:14 PM
I have weird, sort of nightmares where I can't shoot a basketball. Either the ceiling is too low, or I can't remember how to release the ball after I jump. When I see Fultz shooting now, especially after having seen him in college, I feel like he is living my nightmare.

Wasn't that the G-A gym? The one with the beam nicknamed "Ralph"?

-jk

BigZ
01-16-2018, 04:43 PM
So the Rockets wanted to jump Austin after the game

DU82
01-16-2018, 07:24 PM
Wasn't that the G-A gym? The one with the beam nicknamed "Ralph"?

-jk

Southgate, not G-A.

weezie
01-16-2018, 08:35 PM
So the Rockets wanted to jump Austin after the game

Well, color me shocked and dismayed that the president of the players union, Mr. Paul, fell back on his default posture of being a "piece of work"
Storming into the opposing team's locker room to do exactly what? Woof?! The State Farm Sweetheart.

Julius Hodge might have flinched when he watched Sports Center West Coast last night.

BigZ
01-16-2018, 09:42 PM
Yeah I think Austin would take Paul easily

Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15
01-17-2018, 04:29 AM
Well, color me shocked and dismayed that the president of the players union, Mr. Paul, fell back on his default posture of being a "piece of work"
Storming into the opposing team's locker room to do exactly what? Woof?! The State Farm Sweetheart.

Julius Hodge might have flinched when he watched Sports Center West Coast last night.

Chris Paul has somehow crafted his State Farm nice guy PR image, but I still think of him first and foremost as Captain Nut Punch.

ice-9
01-17-2018, 09:07 AM
Ok, we need to talk about this (https://deadspin.com/markelle-fultzs-shoulder-is-healed-but-his-jumper-is-ju-1822070907)...

https://i.kinja-img.com/gawker-media/image/upload/s--giEpa9sH--/c_scale,fl_progressive,q_80,w_800/ufiwvvuxwvc2vorulh6n.gif

That, my friends, is not a 6th grader learning how to shoot a jump shot. That is the Markelle Fultz, the #1 pick in the 2017 NBA Draft. And that is perhaps the ugliest jumpshot I have ever seen from an erstwhile professional basketball player. There's more video of his truly horrible shooting form here (https://www.sbnation.com/2018/1/14/16890698/markelle-fultz-jumpshot-update-not-good-shoulder-injury-76ers-practice-brett-brown).



This reminds me of those movies where someone desperate does a deal with the devil to be a bball star, and the devil screws the person over on a technicality and takes away that ability in the NBA.

Or those body swap movies where Michael Jordan takes on Fultzís body to dominate college, only to leave later at movie end.

Unreal.

dudog84
01-17-2018, 09:29 AM
Yeah I think Austin would take Paul easily

He'd have to protect his nuts.

Edit: So now I have to get up at 4 in the morning to get in the first nuts joke? Thanks, Mtn.Devil.

luvdahops
01-17-2018, 09:50 AM
Chris Paul has somehow crafted his State Farm nice guy PR image, but I still think of him first and foremost as Captain Nut Punch.

He's toned it down a bit from his college days, but is still plenty chippy, though NBA refs tend to give him a wide berth because of his start status. But every now and then, his inner punk resurfaces in a more overt way. Like Monday night in LA.

kshepinthehouse
01-17-2018, 10:02 AM
He's toned it down a bit from his college days, but is still plenty chippy, though NBA refs tend to give him a wide berth because of his start status. But every now and then, his inner punk resurfaces in a more overt way. Like Monday night in LA.

Heís a whiner.

JasonEvans
01-17-2018, 10:07 AM
Have the Clippers used all their roster spots? Cause I know exactly who they should sign the next time they play the Rockets.

https://s3.amazonaws.com/media.dtc/28180_28173_runsupplement2ff.jpg

Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15
01-17-2018, 10:22 AM
He's toned it down a bit from his college days, but is still plenty chippy, though NBA refs tend to give him a wide berth because of his start status. But every now and then, his inner punk resurfaces in a more overt way. Like Monday night in LA.

Some transgressions I am not interested in forgiving. I think his white washing of his personality is a thin veneer over his sneaky cheating ways.

Your mileage may vary.

dukelifer
01-17-2018, 05:37 PM
Ok, we need to talk about this (https://deadspin.com/markelle-fultzs-shoulder-is-healed-but-his-jumper-is-ju-1822070907)...

https://i.kinja-img.com/gawker-media/image/upload/s--giEpa9sH--/c_scale,fl_progressive,q_80,w_800/ufiwvvuxwvc2vorulh6n.gif

That, my friends, is not a 6th grader learning how to shoot a jump shot. That is the Markelle Fultz, the #1 pick in the 2017 NBA Draft. And that is perhaps the ugliest jumpshot I have ever seen from an erstwhile professional basketball player. There's more video of his truly horrible shooting form here (https://www.sbnation.com/2018/1/14/16890698/markelle-fultz-jumpshot-update-not-good-shoulder-injury-76ers-practice-brett-brown).

I think we are in new territory here. This kid was a dynamic shooter a year ago (he hit 41% of his 3s in college) and has seemingly completely forgotten how to shoot a basketball. I just can't recall something like this happening.

To bring in a Duke angle, this would making the Fultz for Tatum (plus a high #1 pick) trade look lopsided even if Tatum wasn't looking like perhaps the best player in the 2017 draft. There is a non-zero chance that Fultz will never be a good basketball player ever again. I'm serious...

-Jason "I'd say this is a career ending offense for Bryan Colangelo, but I don't think anyone could have seen this coming" Evans
He may never relearn how to shoot again given the change in his mechanics. The 10,000 hours he spent learning to shoot a ball as a kid is not going to help him. I think he may never be a shooter again. The yips are real and he may now have it.

dukelifer
01-17-2018, 05:38 PM
Have the Clippers used all their roster spots? Cause I know exactly who they should sign the next time they play the Rockets.

https://s3.amazonaws.com/media.dtc/28180_28173_runsupplement2ff.jpg

I think he has been barred from the league- just not fair to have him on the court with mere mortals.

RPS
01-17-2018, 05:41 PM
Have the Clippers used all their roster spots? Cause I know exactly who they should sign the next time they play the Rockets.

https://s3.amazonaws.com/media.dtc/28180_28173_runsupplement2ff.jpgI've heard/used this joke a ga-zillion or so times...and it's totally predictable...and it's still great.

nmduke2001
01-27-2018, 09:31 AM
Tough break for NOLA; Boogie Cousins out for the season.
http://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/22228947/demarcus-cousins-new-orleans-pelicans-tears-achilles

JasonEvans
01-27-2018, 11:05 AM
Tough break for NOLA; Boogie Cousins out for the season.
http://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/22228947/demarcus-cousins-new-orleans-pelicans-tears-achilles

And he is a free agent this off season. At 27 years old, he's going to get a big-time max contract even if he is a guy coming off injury. New Orleans whole plan was to sell Boogie and Davis on playing together and being title contenders as a tandem. I'm not sure they got enough of a taste of it to know for sure though they were #6 in the West, which ain't bad.

JNort
01-27-2018, 11:23 AM
And he is a free agent this off season. At 27 years old, he's going to get a big-time max contract even if he is a guy coming off injury. New Orleans whole plan was to sell Boogie and Davis on playing together and being title contenders as a tandem. I'm not sure they got enough of a taste of it to know for sure though they were #6 in the West, which ain't bad.
I think it's a great pairing honestly. The problem is the rest of that roster looks bad. No way Jrue should be getting paid what he is and the rest are just awful imo.

Troublemaker
01-27-2018, 11:27 AM
Tough break for NOLA; Boogie Cousins out for the season.
http://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/22228947/demarcus-cousins-new-orleans-pelicans-tears-achilles


And he is a free agent this off season. At 27 years old, he's going to get a big-time max contract even if he is a guy coming off injury. New Orleans whole plan was to sell Boogie and Davis on playing together and being title contenders as a tandem. I'm not sure they got enough of a taste of it to know for sure though they were #6 in the West, which ain't bad.

It's not a done deal that the Pelicans become a worse team with this injury. While that ultimately would be the way I bet, check out this Ringer article (https://www.theringer.com/nba/2017/12/27/16820018/demarcus-cousins-pelicans-anthony-davis) discussing Cousins' defensive weaknesses and New Orleans' lineup efficiencies. Zach Lowe also tears Cousins a new one about his defense in this article here (http://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/21831824/zach-lowe-10-things-like-including-all-star-draft-nba). From the Ringer article:

https://i.imgur.com/Z7ksiOZ.png

Presumably, with Cousins out for the season, the relative minutes for that second lineup will go way up. Of course, Davis can't play the whole game, so the minutes for lineups featuring NEITHER Cousins nor Davis will also go up. Those lineups aren't listed here, presumably because New Orleans doesn't often play with neither of its stars on the court. But I think, odds are, those minutes would be bad for New Orleans. So to summarize, increase in the Davis-only lineups will occur, but increase in Neither lineups will also occur. Is it a net gain or a net loss? I would bet on the latter but it's not a done deal.

JasonEvans
01-29-2018, 03:13 PM
I was just reading about (http://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/22255728/new-york-knicks-joakim-noah-remain-apart-no-buyout-talks-two-sides) how Joakim Noah and the Knicks are hating on each other, but Noah is not willing to take less than what he is owed in a buy out. So, I wondered how much they owed him:


...three years and $56 million on his contract... The former Defensive Player of the Year signed a four-year, $72 million contract with New York in the summer of 2016.

Good gracious!??! They still owe him 3 years and $56 million?!?! I swear, I thought he had been there for at least 3 or 4 seasons. Ack!!

-Jason "I know the NBA is full of really bad contracts, but in terms of dollars per points/rebs/games/whatever, this has got to be among the worst" Evans

JasonEvans
01-29-2018, 03:16 PM
You know it is bad when your team's own fan-site is making fun of you.

Read the article titled: Is it just me or does Markelle Fultzís form look good? (https://thesixersense.com/2018/01/28/philadelphia-76ers-just-me-or-markelle-fultz-shooting-form-look-good/)

-Jason "must see video in that link" Evans

CDu
01-29-2018, 03:41 PM
I was just reading about (http://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/22255728/new-york-knicks-joakim-noah-remain-apart-no-buyout-talks-two-sides) how Joakim Noah and the Knicks are hating on each other, but Noah is not willing to take less than what he is owed in a buy out. So, I wondered how much they owed him:



Good gracious!??! They still owe him 3 years and $56 million?!?! I swear, I thought he had been there for at least 3 or 4 seasons. Ack!!

-Jason "I know the NBA is full of really bad contracts, but in terms of dollars per points/rebs/games/whatever, this has got to be among the worst" Evans

Hilariously, many a Bulls fan (not me) were furious that they traded Derrick Rose for Lopez/Grant and let Noah walk to sign with the Knicks. Nobody will admit that now, but it was a prevailing feeling by more than a few fans.

That Noah deal was an AWFUL contract for a guy who was already in physical decline and whose skill set just wasn't suited for the way the NBA was heading. He fell apart a bit quicker than I expected, but he was clearly never going to live up to that contract.

JasonEvans
01-29-2018, 03:44 PM
Hilariously, many a Bulls fan (not me) were furious that they traded Derrick Rose for Lopez/Grant and let Noah walk to sign with the Knicks. Nobody will admit that now, but it was a prevailing feeling by more than a few fans.

That Noah deal was an AWFUL contract for a guy who was already in physical decline and whose skill set just wasn't suited for the way the NBA was heading. He fell apart a bit quicker than I expected, but he was clearly never going to live up to that contract.

https://i.imgflip.com/23kmpf.jpg

pfrduke
01-29-2018, 07:03 PM
Blake Griffin to the Pistons in a blockbuster. It's not often that a guy in the first year of a 5-year max contract gets traded. Clips are trying to stay in playoff contention this year while gaining new flexibility to just blow it all up.

BD80
01-29-2018, 07:46 PM
Blake Griffin to the Pistons in a blockbuster. It's not often that a guy in the first year of a 5-year max contract gets traded. Clips are trying to stay in playoff contention this year while gaining new flexibility to just blow it all up.

WOW!

SVG isn't afraid to give up assets is he?

Hope this is a trade that works out for both teams.

Tobias Harris was the Pistons best shotmaker. Avery hadn't panned out as well as expected, it was just a tryout for a max contract anyway.

It has been said that the team that gets the best player in an NBA draft wins. Griffin is ostensibly the best player.

The Pistons BETTER make the playoffs now, or else that #1 pick could be extremely valuable considering the players that will be taken early this year.

JetpackJesus
01-29-2018, 11:03 PM
Blake Griffin to the Pistons in a blockbuster. It's not often that a guy in the first year of a 5-year max contract gets traded. Clips are trying to stay in playoff contention this year while gaining new flexibility to just blow it all up.

I haven't read it yet, but I figured I'd share Zach Lowe's take (http://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/22258759/zach-lowe-blake-griffin-trade-future-la-clippers-detroit-pistons) on this trade anyway. I'm sure whatever is in there is good stuff because, you know, Zach Lowe.

weezie
01-29-2018, 11:11 PM
..SVG isn't afraid to give up assets is he?...Hope this is a trade that works out for both teams...The Pistons BETTER make the playoffs now, or else that #1 pick could be extremely valuable considering the players that will be taken early this year.

Oh Lord, now you've done it. I'm not so sure. Can he keep his delicate self all glued together? We'll see.

BigZ
02-06-2018, 09:21 PM
The Cavs are finished. Just scored 9 points in fourth quarter to the Magic.

JasonEvans
02-07-2018, 08:59 AM
The Cavs are finished. Just scored 9 points in fourth quarter to the Magic.

Has the time come to trade Lebron? OKC could put together a package of Steven Adams (good piece), Kyle Singler (salary cap relief for OKC), and a couple #1 picks in future years and get it done (Cleveland has several trade exceptions they can use to facilitate a deal). I know Lebron would have to waive his no trade, but he'd get to play with his buddy Paul George!

-Jason "the reports that Lebron is no longer being consulted by the Cleveland front office shows me they no longer think they have any chance of re-signing him" Evans

CDu
02-07-2018, 10:15 AM
Has the time come to trade Lebron? OKC could put together a package of Steven Adams (good piece), Kyle Singler (salary cap relief for OKC), and a couple #1 picks in future years and get it done (Cleveland has several trade exceptions they can use to facilitate a deal). I know Lebron would have to waive his no trade, but he'd get to play with his buddy Paul George!

-Jason "the reports that Lebron is no longer being consulted by the Cleveland front office shows me they no longer think they have any chance of re-signing him" Evans

OKC can't trade draft 1st round picks until like 2022. Also, I don't think you can use trade exceptions in multi-player deals (although you wouldn't need to in in this particular trade suggestion). But because of the lack of draft picks, I don't think OKC is a realistic trade partner.

Matches
02-07-2018, 10:37 AM
Lebron has said he won't waive his NTC. Even if that's just posturing, it's hard to imagine a trade really working. He'd be a rental so presumably you'd be trading him to a team that feels it's on the cusp. The problem is a team like that usually already has established stars. Lebron immediately becomes the alpha dog wherever he goes, so either he's settling in to a less-alpha role (good luck with that), or an already-good team has to upend everything for half a season with LBJ.

Just hard to see how that ends well for anyone involved.

Agreed he is DONE in Cleveland though.

flyingdutchdevil
02-07-2018, 10:41 AM
OKC can't trade draft 1st round picks until like 2022. Also, I don't think you can use trade exceptions in multi-player deals (although you wouldn't need to in in this particular trade suggestion). But because of the lack of draft picks, I don't think OKC is a realistic trade partner.

I also don't think Lebron wants to get traded. I think he's content with making the playoffs (which they likely will), losing in the first/second round, and bailing on Cleveland (although this time folks won't burn his jersey on mass).

The more interesting question is where he ends up. IMO, the criteria are a) at least one star, b) efficient, young or cheap players, and c) potential to beat the Dubs. That's not a lot of teams. Houston has little to no flexibility, the Thunder are way over the cap, the Celtics will implode if Kyrie learns Lebron is coming to Boston, the Lakers don't have a bonafide star, and Toronto is outside the market and likely to hurt Lebron's brand. IMO, the Spurs and the Bucks make sense, but you have to get financial creative to do so.

flyingdutchdevil
02-07-2018, 10:43 AM
I also don't think Lebron wants to get traded. I think he's content with making the playoffs (which they likely will), losing in the first/second round, and bailing on Cleveland (although this time folks won't burn his jersey on mass).

The more interesting question is where he ends up. IMO, the criteria are a) at least one star, b) efficient, young or cheap players, and c) potential to beat the Dubs. That's not a lot of teams. Houston has little to no flexibility, the Thunder are way over the cap, the Celtics will implode if Kyrie learns Lebron is coming to Boston, the Lakers don't have a bonafide star, and Toronto is outside the market and likely to hurt Lebron's brand. IMO, the Spurs and the Bucks make sense, but you have to get financial creative to do so.

Totally forgot about the Sixers. That could make sense.

CDu
02-07-2018, 10:43 AM
Lebron has said he won't waive his NTC. Even if that's just posturing, it's hard to imagine a trade really working. He'd be a rental so presumably you'd be trading him to a team that feels it's on the cusp. The problem is a team like that usually already has established stars. Lebron immediately becomes the alpha dog wherever he goes, so either he's settling in to a less-alpha role (good luck with that), or an already-good team has to upend everything for half a season with LBJ.

Just hard to see how that ends well for anyone involved.

Agreed he is DONE in Cleveland though.

The only place I could see him accepting a trade would be Houston (to play with his buddy Chris Paul). But I don't know that Houston has anything to offer Cleveland for LeBron, either. Well, aside from Harden, but that's not happening.

Basically, yeah, LeBron is walking after the season. And I can't imagine he's going to allow Cleveland to trade him, unless it is exactly where he wants to go.

Gotta wonder if Philly is the destination he ends up at this summer. Young team on the rise, plenty of cap space, Eastern Conference so he avoids Houston/Golden State.

Troublemaker
02-07-2018, 10:56 AM
Totally forgot about the Sixers. That could make sense.



Gotta wonder if Philly is the destination he ends up at this summer. Young team on the rise, plenty of cap space, Eastern Conference so he avoids Houston/Golden State.

Agreed. Philly's the favorite to land Lebron, imo. No one has reported that (yet), but it just makes too much sense. It reminds me of the Durant free agency a bit. The one realistic* option that most NBA fans didn't want Durant to choose (because it would create a monster team) is exactly the option that he ended up choosing. Same thing will happen here.

*Realistic being the key. Lebron's not going to take the minimum to go play for the Warriors, for example.

flyingdutchdevil
02-07-2018, 11:01 AM
Agreed. Philly's the favorite to land Lebron, imo. No one has reported that (yet), but it just makes too much sense. It reminds me of the Durant free agency a bit. The one realistic* option that most NBA fans didn't want Durant to choose (because it would create a monster team) is exactly the option that he ended up choosing. Same thing will happen here.

*Realistic being the key. Lebron's not going to take the minimum to go play for the Warriors, for example.

The thing about the Sixers is Ben Simmons is the true poor man's Lebron: playmaker, great at taking the ball inside, not a great outside shot (okay, in Simmons' case, no outside shot)... you basically have 2 true point forwards. I'm sure they could co-exist, but I don't think you're getting the best of Simmons or Lebron if they're both on the floor together. Also, Simmons would probably ask for a trade in a few years :p.

My guess is Houston if the Rockets don't beat the Dubs. Daryl will get a deal done. It likely means Ariza and Anderson aren't on the team next year, but that's the price you pay for getting Lebron.

Also, we know Lebron loves playing with Super Friends, and Paul is the Ultimate Super Friend.

Truth&Justise
02-07-2018, 11:01 AM
The Cavs are finished. Just scored 9 points in fourth quarter to the Magic.

Truly an abysmal performance. Is this rock bottom, or just an inflection point?

There's too much time left in the season to assume it's all over. But the clock is ticking until the trade deadline; Cleveland has to make some tough choices and make them fast.

Troublemaker
02-07-2018, 11:16 AM
The thing about the Sixers is Ben Simmons is the true poor man's Lebron: playmaker, great at taking the ball inside, not a great outside shot (okay, in Simmons' case, no outside shot)... you basically have 2 true point forwards. I'm sure they could co-exist, but I don't think you're getting the best of Simmons or Lebron if they're both on the floor together. Also, Simmons would probably ask for a trade in a few years :p.


Agreed, the Simmons / Lebron fit on the court is the one thing that would give you pause. (It should be noted that they seem to be good friends off the court, though. (https://www.sbnation.com/2017/11/27/16706084/lebron-james-ben-simmons-relationship-basketball-76ers-cavaliers)) Lebron would have to sacrifice some playmaking responsibility. Since he's heading into his age 34 season next season, I think he can do it. These primary playmakers always talk about what a burden it is to have to carry the load and create for teammates, so I think as he heads into his mid-30s, he might be happy to allow Simmons to lighten the load for him. Also, on an ultratalented Philly team, he could finally play a reasonable amount of minutes for a player his age. Which has sometimes been a problem for him in Cleveland. (http://www.nbcsports.com/washington/wizards/lebron-james-admits-hes-playing-too-many-minutes-after-draymond-green-pointed-it-out) Because of Lebron's age, the presence of Ben Simmons is probably a feature, not a bug, to his signing in Philly.

DukieInBrasil
02-07-2018, 12:11 PM
Truly an abysmal performance. Is this rock bottom, or just an inflection point?

There's too much time left in the season to assume it's all over. But the clock is ticking until the trade deadline; Cleveland has to make some tough choices and make them fast.

The trade that Ainge pulled off is looking better by the day. Kyrie has been having a very nice year, and IT has been a huge negative on the Cavs. They're 6-8 in the games he's played since his return (0-2 in games he didn't play in). His stats are all really down, which is to be expected as he is coming back from a long time off. I suspect his numbers will improve with time, and he may end up helping the Cavs improve from where they are now. I know there were other players involved in the trade, but those 2 were the marquee parts.

CDu
02-07-2018, 12:30 PM
The trade that Ainge pulled off is looking better by the day. Kyrie has been having a very nice year, and IT has been a huge negative on the Cavs. They're 6-8 in the games he's played since his return (0-2 in games he didn't play in). His stats are all really down, which is to be expected as he is coming back from a long time off. I suspect his numbers will improve with time, and he may end up helping the Cavs improve from where they are now. I know there were other players involved in the trade, but those 2 were the marquee parts.

I don't think anyone believed that Thomas would be equal to Irving. The question was whether Thomas plus Crowder (on a ridicously good contract) plus the Brooklyn pick would be worth more than an unhappy Irving. Obviously Thomas' injury was worse than expected, and he's struggled to get back to his old form. Maybe he does, maybe he doesn't.

The thing that remains to be seen is the value of the Brooklyn pick. If it winds up a high lottery pick, then it's probably still a win for the Cavs, even though it may also be a win for the Celtics. They'd get a high pick and a really good contract for a guy that wasn't happy and was going to leave anyway. While the Celtics would get at least two years of a young star PG.

dudog84
02-07-2018, 12:55 PM
Truly an abysmal performance. Is this rock bottom, or just an inflection point?

There's too much time left in the season to assume it's all over. But the clock is ticking until the trade deadline; Cleveland has to make some tough choices and make them fast.

I don't think Cleveland is going to make any tough choices. I believe their front office is happy with the one championship, and I don't think they have any interest in blowing up their future (whatever that might be) to make LeBron happy for a few months. I don't see any deal happening that gets them past Golden State (but then I haven't been very good with predictions for the past year and a half).

Troublemaker
02-07-2018, 12:56 PM
I don't think anyone believed that Thomas would be equal to Irving. The question was whether Thomas plus Crowder (on a ridicously good contract) plus the Brooklyn pick would be worth more than an unhappy Irving. Obviously Thomas' injury was worse than expected, and he's struggled to get back to his old form. Maybe he does, maybe he doesn't.

The thing that remains to be seen is the value of the Brooklyn pick. If it winds up a high lottery pick, then it's probably still a win for the Cavs, even though it may also be a win for the Celtics. They'd get a high pick and a really good contract for a guy that wasn't happy and was going to leave anyway. While the Celtics would get at least two years of a young star PG.

I agree. An update on that pick: Brooklyn currently has the 8th-worst record in the NBA (http://www.espn.com/nba/standings/_/group/league). And one of the teams above them are the Knicks, who just lost Porzingis for the season and might go into tanking mode. (Now, obviously, you can still end up with a top-3 pick by winning the lottery from the position of the 8th or 9th worst record.)

While nothing is set in stone yet, the Kyrie trade has definitely been trending towards being a victory for Boston even though initially almost everyone thought it was a victory for Cleveland.

sagegrouse
02-07-2018, 01:01 PM
I don't think Cleveland is going to make any tough choices. I believe their front office is happy with the one championship, and I don't think they have any interest in blowing up their future (whatever that might be) to make LeBron happy for a few months. I don't see any deal happening that gets them past Golden State (but then I haven't been very good with predictions for the past year and a half).
Not to start an argument, but another Cleveland's will most likely occur if Golden State is knocked off in the west by, say, OKC or HOU. And I thinkt here is a reasonable probability that Golden State does lose prior to the finals.

Truth&Justise
02-07-2018, 01:35 PM
I agree. An update on that pick: Brooklyn currently has the 8th-worst record in the NBA (http://www.espn.com/nba/standings/_/group/league). And one of the teams above them are the Knicks, who just lost Porzingis for the season and might go into tanking mode. (Now, obviously, you can still end up with a top-3 pick by winning the lottery from the position of the 8th or 9th worst record.)

While nothing is set in stone yet, the Kyrie trade has definitely been trending towards being a victory for Boston even though initially almost everyone thought it was a victory for Cleveland.

I'll disagree slightly here by echoing others in this thread: trading is not a zero-sum game. Both parties can (and should) win.

flyingdutchdevil
02-07-2018, 01:45 PM
I'll disagree slightly here by echoing others in this thread: trading is not a zero-sum game. Both parties can (and should) win.

But who wins more is the debate :D

Of the three pieces that the Cavs got in the trade, the Nets pick is the only one that has tons of value. Thomas has been an utter disaster in Cleveland, and Crowder looks weirdly lost with the Cavs (his PER this season is the worst in his career). I'd be shocked if Thomas or Crowder were with the Cavs by the end of next year.

That Nets pick is interesting, but if it's an 8 pick, you're likely looking at Jeron Jackson/Bamba/Carter/Sexton/Knox/Gilgeous-Alexander territory and you missed out on the Ayton/Bagley/Porter/Doncic/Young core. I fail to see how that 6-11 pick players can possibly have more value than Kyrie, even on rookie salaries. Cus in 2 years, the Cavs will have plenty of cap space.

dudog84
02-07-2018, 02:02 PM
Not to start an argument, but another Cleveland's will most likely occur if Golden State is knocked off in the west by, say, OKC or HOU. And I thinkt here is a reasonable probability that Golden State does lose prior to the finals.

No problem, we're here to argue. But wouldn't any team able to beat Golden State in the west still be a prohibitive favorite against Cleveland? And I have much more faith in Golden State making the finals than Cleveland. Right now Cleveland has 30 wins, which ties them with 2 other teams for 4th best in the east. In fact, they're closer to being the 8th seed (or out) than they are to being the 2nd seed. And the teams around them are all trending MUCH better (last 10).

I'll go out on a limb and say there's no way Cleveland makes the finals as a 5-seed or lower. And only give them a 25% chance if they are seeded 3 or 4.

Of course, trades by any and all of those teams in the hunt would affect that prognosis, but perhaps not in the direction that Cleveland fans would want.

JasonEvans
02-07-2018, 02:37 PM
No problem, we're here to argue. But wouldn't any team able to beat Golden State in the west still be a prohibitive favorite against Cleveland? And I have much more faith in Golden State making the finals than Cleveland. Right now Cleveland has 30 wins, which ties them with 2 other teams for 4th best in the east. In fact, they're closer to being the 8th seed (or out) than they are to being the 2nd seed. And the teams around them are all trending MUCH better (last 10).

I'll go out on a limb and say there's no way Cleveland makes the finals as a 5-seed or lower. And only give them a 25% chance if they are seeded 3 or 4.

Of course, trades by any and all of those teams in the hunt would affect that prognosis, but perhaps not in the direction that Cleveland fans would want.

This ^^^

I keep on hearing "Cleveland needs to make a trade to get them past Golden State" and I think, "Cleveland needs to make a trade to get them past Boston and Toronto. Without home court in the 2nd round (possibly not even in the first round), I think it will be exceedingly difficult for Cleveland to beat Toronto, let alone the Celtics. I see Boston, especially with Greg Monroe boosting their 2nd team significantly, as easily the most likely team to come out of the East.

-Jason "side note about Lebron... I bet he signs a 1 year deal with the Sixers or someone like that in the off-season and considers the Lakers again in the 2019 free agent summer" Evans

Matches
02-07-2018, 02:40 PM
Cleveland will get better. IT will round into something resembling form. Love will return. Everyone's effort will dial up a notch in the playoffs, and that will help paper over some of the team's obvious chemistry problems. I saw someone on Twitter last night speculating the Cavs would miss the playoffs, and that's not happening.

But I dunno if "better" is enough to get them out of the East, and they'll get destroyed by any of the top 4 teams in the West.

flyingdutchdevil
02-07-2018, 02:44 PM
Cleveland will get better. IT will round into something resembling form. Love will return. Everyone's effort will dial up a notch in the playoffs, and that will help paper over some of the team's obvious chemistry problems. I saw someone on Twitter last night speculating the Cavs would miss the playoffs, and that's not happening.

But I dunno if "better" is enough to get them out of the East, and they'll get destroyed by any of the top 4 teams in the West.

I'd argue top 2 teams in the West. SA is missing their best player and the Baby Wolves are so untested in the playoffs (even Butler). I'd argue that the 3rd and 4th best teams in the country are in the East (BOS, TOR). But your point still stands: Cleveland will get murdered by HOU or GSW.

JasonEvans
02-07-2018, 02:47 PM
they'll get destroyed by any of the top 4 teams in the West.

Top 5. I think the Thunder are really improving after some struggles earlier in the year. They are 17-9 since mid-December with a 6 game and an 8 game win streak. The West is gonna be murder.

dudog84
02-07-2018, 02:58 PM
This ^^^

I keep on hearing "Cleveland needs to make a trade to get them past Golden State" and I think, "Cleveland needs to make a trade to get them past Boston and Toronto. Without home court in the 2nd round (possibly not even in the first round), I think it will be exceedingly difficult for Cleveland to beat Toronto, let alone the Celtics. I see Boston, especially with Greg Monroe boosting their 2nd team significantly, as easily the most likely team to come out of the East.

-Jason "side note about Lebron... I bet he signs a 1 year deal with the Sixers or someone like that in the off-season and considers the Lakers again in the 2019 free agent summer" Evans

Here's a question for y'all, sorry if it has been addressed on the board elsewhere in the past few years.

Does LeBron's bouncing between teams affect his "legacy"? Virtually all of the other greats you associate with one team. Russell-Celtics, Magic-Lakers, Bird-Celtics, Jordan-Bulls, Kobe-Lakers, Duncan-Spurs.

Thoughts?

CDu
02-07-2018, 03:04 PM
Here's a question for y'all, sorry if it has been addressed on the board elsewhere in the past few years.

Does LeBron's bouncing between teams affect his "legacy"? Virtually all of the other greats you associate with one team. Russell-Celtics, Magic-Lakers, Bird-Celtics, Jordan-Bulls, Kobe-Lakers, Duncan-Spurs.

Thoughts?

Doesnít matter now. He done crossed that bridge twice. He isnít changing anyoneís mind now. You know what would hurt his legacy more? Finishing his career on a bad Cleveland team.

flyingdutchdevil
02-07-2018, 03:16 PM
Doesnít matter now. He done crossed that bridge twice. He isnít changing anyoneís mind now. You know what would hurt his legacy more? Finishing his career on a bad Cleveland team.

Exactly. I don't think anyone thinks Shaq's legacy is tarnished with all the moving around he did. Or Kevin Garnett's trade demand. Or Allen Iverson's trade demand. And pretty sure no one is gonna care about Durant's free agency move.

At the end of the day, all folks care about is stats and winning and not committing crimes (you don't have to be a good/nice person. You just can't be a criminal). Do that, and you'll be a HoFer.

Going back to topic - the Lebron sweepstakes are really interesting. I'm not convinced he's considering the Sixers anymore. I'm convinced he'll end up on the Rockets. They have $86M on the books next year. Cap is gonna be $101M next year. They need to resign Paul (and let Ariza go). If they can get rid of Anderson's contract ($20M next year), that leaves space for Paul and Lebron (who are both likely to take a small salary cut) and sign complementary players not named JR Smith, Kyle Korver, Jae Crowder, Derrick Rose, or Iman Shumpert.

A core of Lebron-Paul-Harden-Gordon-Capela is nasty. PJ Tucker and Nene are useful role players.

LasVegas
02-07-2018, 03:29 PM
I donít think anyone in here is a Cleveland fan. So to add my opinion to it all as a die hard Cleveland fan...do everything to win right now. Especially if you think Lebron will leave after the season. Iíve lost all hope that the Cavs organization could build a contender without Lebron. So win now. Trade it all away and make a push while you can. If you have to give up Brooklynís pick, so what? Even with that pick, it will take years of tanking to build up a playoff team.

kako
02-07-2018, 03:35 PM
Doesnít matter now. He done crossed that bridge twice. He isnít changing anyoneís mind now. You know what would hurt his legacy more? Finishing his career on a bad Cleveland team.

Yes, James' legacy is set. 7 finals in a row in this age of free agency is amazing, even if he only (?) has 3 rings. 4 MVPs, 2 gold medals, etc. He's a whiner, but his rep is squeaky clean. I don't like him, but he's the best player of his generation, hands down. He probably passes (is passing?) the torch to Durant, but that's how it goes.

But nobody really remembers Jordan finishing with the Wizards, Willie Mays finishing with the Mets, etc. So even if James finishes on the Cavs or worse, I don't think it's a big deal legacy-wise.

JasonEvans
02-07-2018, 03:42 PM
They have $86M on the books next year. Cap is gonna be $101M next year. They need to resign Paul (and let Ariza go). If they can get rid of Anderson's contract ($20M next year), that leaves space for Paul and Lebron (who are both likely to take a small salary cut).

I may be wrong, but I think Lebron and Chris Paul would both have to take about $10 mil less than a max deal to make this work. Not saying they won't but that is a lot more than a "small salary cut." I do agree that it is the destination he would probably prefer the most.

flyingdutchdevil
02-07-2018, 03:51 PM
I may be wrong, but I think Lebron and Chris Paul would both have to take about $10 mil less than a max deal to make this work. Not saying they won't but that is a lot more than a "small salary cut." I do agree that it is the destination he would probably prefer the most.

Durant took a $7M salary cut to stay on the Dubs. Safe to say Lebron will have to do the same thing to maximize his chances of winning a 4th natty.

Troublemaker
02-07-2018, 03:54 PM
I donít think anyone in here is a Cleveland fan. So to add my opinion to it all as a die hard Cleveland fan...do everything to win right now. Especially if you think Lebron will leave after the season. Iíve lost all hope that the Cavs organization could build a contender without Lebron. So win now. Trade it all away and make a push while you can. If you have to give up Brooklynís pick, so what? Even with that pick, it will take years of tanking to build up a playoff team.

I was when Kyrie was there :-)

And I agree with you. The Nets pick probably won't be THAT valuable; they're already 8th-worst in the league before the teams below them really start to put their minds to tanking. If they can get a good two-way player for a playoff push, they should do it.

moonpie23
02-07-2018, 04:08 PM
I'm a cleveland fan.. :)


how many teams will think the Cavs are "done" come playoffs?

elvis14
02-07-2018, 04:14 PM
I'm a cleveland fan.. :)


how many teams will think the Cavs are "done" come playoffs?

The GSW, if healthy :-)
After that does it matter?

BD80
02-07-2018, 04:29 PM
I'm a cleveland fan.. :)


...


That is an important step toward recovery ...


I don't think LeBron is a "plug and play" addition to championship contending teams.

He needs a place with players who defer to his Alpha status. He had that in Miami and has had it in Cleveland.

I really think there would be issues in Philly, with the "young guns" resenting the "old guy" coming in expecting to run the show and demand the ball in crunch time.

I don't know how Harden and Paul would react to the addition of LeBron, but they are getting to the point where they should be willing to make some allowances in pursuit of a championship.

kshepinthehouse
02-07-2018, 05:04 PM
I'm a cleveland fan.. :)


how many teams will think the Cavs are "done" come playoffs?

Too old, too slow, terrible defensively, no rim protector. Unless something remarkable happens between now and Friday they are toast.

As far as IT is concerned, what no one has mentioned yet is that he plays the alpha male role too. He is a high volume shooter and likes to have the ball in his hands A LOT. In Boston, he could do that because it was him and a bunch of role players. With the Cavs he is having to adapt to a different role. Itís not always easy to go from having the ball in your hands to having to share and I think that is an adjustment that IT Amat be having trouble with too. Iím not sure that his game compliments Lebrons.

JNort
02-07-2018, 05:53 PM
I still don't think the Cavs will have that much of a problem getting out of the East come playoff time. I won't matter what seed they are, maybe Boston can test them but I still don't see anyway Cleveland loses to them.

Troublemaker
02-07-2018, 06:08 PM
I still don't think the Cavs will have that much of a problem getting out of the East come playoff time. I won't matter what seed they are, maybe Boston can test them but I still don't see anyway Cleveland loses to them.

I would make them slight favorites and adjust accordingly depending on how much Isaiah Thomas improves as the season progresses. I mean, Kyrie was a big loss. He feasted on Eastern Conference teams in the playoffs about as much as Lebron did. The idea was always that Thomas could come close to replacing Kyrie for this season.

The East also seems to be stronger. Boston is better than last season, Toronto is better, Milwaukee is better, and Washington should also be better once Wall comes back. The bottom of the East is stronger, too, I thnk.

Combine all those factors and also discord within the franchise perhaps being at an all-time high (http://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/22312359/lebron-james-cavaliers-chaos-unprecedented-running-out) and I will go with Cleveland being slight favorites. Which is still a lot of respect for them and Lebron, all things considered.

DangerDevil
02-07-2018, 08:08 PM
Agreed. Philly's the favorite to land Lebron, imo. No one has reported that (yet), but it just makes too much sense.

Brian Windhorst mentioned Philly as a place that made sense for LeBron when he was on the Dan Le Batard show this morning.

BigZ
02-07-2018, 08:12 PM
Lebron should sign with the T-Wolves they are healthier version of the Sixers. He won't bc I doubt he goes to a small market outside SA or Cleveland

JasonEvans
02-07-2018, 10:46 PM
I still don't think the Cavs will have that much of a problem getting out of the East come playoff time. I won't matter what seed they are, maybe Boston can test them but I still don't see anyway Cleveland loses to them.

Care to make a wager? I think the Cavs will not win the East. Too much dysfunction on that team and half the team is looking for a landing place once the season is over (and no one wants that landing place to be Cleveland). I'm not sure if Toronto does it in round 2 or Boston in the Eastern Finals, but the Cavs won't get back to the finals. I'm willing to put a pie on it.

LasVegas
02-07-2018, 10:50 PM
Lebron just beat the twolves by himself. Hit a three to tie it in regulation. Blocked butlerís final shot in OT. Hit the game winner right after.

dudog84
02-07-2018, 11:01 PM
Care to make a wager? I think the Cavs will not win the East. Too much dysfunction on that team and half the team is looking for a landing place once the season is over (and no one wants that landing place to be Cleveland). I'm not sure if Toronto does it in round 2 or Boston in the Eastern Finals, but the Cavs won't get back to the finals. I'm willing to put a pie on it.

So the winner will have pie on his face, and the the loser will have egg on his?

JNort
02-07-2018, 11:02 PM
Care to make a wager? I think the Cavs will not win the East. Too much dysfunction on that team and half the team is looking for a landing place once the season is over (and no one wants that landing place to be Cleveland). I'm not sure if Toronto does it in round 2 or Boston in the Eastern Finals, but the Cavs won't get back to the finals. I'm willing to put a pie on it.

Barring a LeBron trade/injury I'd be ok with that. Or some other huge trade in the east...

JasonEvans
02-07-2018, 11:02 PM
Lebron just beat the twolves by himself. Hit a three to tie it in regulation. Blocked butlerís final shot in OT. Hit the game winner right after.

37 points on 22 shots along with 15 assists and 10 rebounds... oh and 1 huge blocked shot. Yeah, he might still have some game let in those ancient legs.

JasonEvans
02-07-2018, 11:06 PM
Barring a LeBron trade/injury I'd be ok with that.

We have an accord... the winner gets his choice from this page: https://shop.gtpie.com/category/fruit_pies

mkirsh
02-07-2018, 11:08 PM
Lebron just beat the twolves by himself. Hit a three to tie it in regulation. Blocked butlerís final shot in OT. Hit the game winner right after.

He stole Laettnerís shot (though Lebron might have added an extra step or two)

devildeac
02-07-2018, 11:12 PM
We have an accord... the winner gets his choice from this page: https://shop.gtpie.com/category/fruit_pies

We've had some Grand Traverse pie tastings. Damn, those pies ain't cheap. You folks playing some high stakes. I'll stick to beer-cheaper, tastier, less fat and calories. :o

JNort
02-07-2018, 11:25 PM
We have an accord... the winner gets his choice from this page: https://shop.gtpie.com/category/fruit_pies

Sounds like a deal to me!

dudog84
02-07-2018, 11:30 PM
We have an accord... the winner gets his choice from this page: https://shop.gtpie.com/category/fruit_pies

Holy cow that's some pricey pie! And $16 shipping. They must be tasty, but I'll stick with Publix or Winn-Dixie.

subzero02
02-07-2018, 11:57 PM
He stole Laettnerís shot (though Lebron might have added an extra step or two)

I immediately thought of Laettner too when he made that shot

JetpackJesus
02-08-2018, 12:28 AM
He stole Laettner’s shot (though Lebron might have added an extra step or two)
My thought, too, and he certainly added a push off. Amazing shot regardless, and I would hope that's how refs call a play like that in both NCAA or NBA.

And I think the steps were fine, actually. The NBA allows two steps after the gather. Beyond that, you can pick up your pivot foot so long as you shoot or pass the ball before putting it back down. You cannot dribble once you've picked up your pivot foot.

*EDIT: You're not supposed to dribble after picking up your pivot. That's the travel that I think is missed most often in NCAA (not sure about NBA since I watch less of it), and it really screws the on-ball defender when it goes uncalled .

kshepinthehouse
02-08-2018, 05:54 AM
37 points on 22 shots along with 15 assists and 10 rebounds... oh and 1 huge blocked shot. Yeah, he might still have some game let in those ancient legs.

It takes a Herculean effort from Lebron and they still only win by 2. Nevertheless a huge win by the Cavs knocking off one of the better teams in the West.

Today will be an interesting day. Letís see what the Cavs do.

elvis14
02-08-2018, 10:10 AM
I immediately thought of Laettner too when he made that shot

LOL, no. Hell no. Great shot by LeBron (why Minn didn't have 2 guys guarding him, I have no idea) but it didn't remind me of THE shot at all. Pass was from half court, LeBron pushed off to make space (not complaining, good no call, just the right amount of push to get space and not get called), was a regular season game.

Fun game to watch, shame the T-Wolves couldn't close it out as I'm so enjoying the media blitz on the Cavs struggles. Butler got too selfish in OT, IMHO. That last shot was an easy block for LBJ, because Butler was going to shoot no matter what so he had 3 defenders.

CDu
02-08-2018, 12:18 PM
Cavs trading Thomas and Frye plus their own (not the Brooklyn) 1st round pick to the Lakers for Clarkson and Nance.

JasonEvans
02-08-2018, 12:23 PM
Cavs trading Thomas and Frye plus their own (not the Brooklyn) 1st round pick to the Lakers for Clarkson and Nance.

This feels like purging the locker room of a problem for the Cavs more than getting better... though Jordan Clarkson is a nice piece and he is certainly a better defender than IT.

LasVegas
02-08-2018, 12:25 PM
LOL, no. Hell no. Great shot by LeBron (why Minn didn't have 2 guys guarding him, I have no idea) but it didn't remind me of THE shot at all. Pass was from half court, LeBron pushed off to make space (not complaining, good no call, just the right amount of push to get space and not get called), was a regular season game.

Fun game to watch, shame the T-Wolves couldn't close it out as I'm so enjoying the media blitz on the Cavs struggles. Butler got too selfish in OT, IMHO. That last shot was an easy block for LBJ, because Butler was going to shoot no matter what so he had 3 defenders.

Why such hate for the Cavs?

CDu
02-08-2018, 12:28 PM
This feels like purging the locker room of a problem for the Cavs more than getting better... though Jordan Clarkson is a nice piece and he is certainly a better defender than IT.

It is a few things:

1. Much better defense and athleticism, both from Clarkson over Thomas and Nance over Frye. Watching that Cleveland/Minnesota game, Cleveland was forced to bring Cedi Osman into the game for defensive purposes down the stretch, because Minnesota was running repeated screen action to get Thomas isolated on Butler. And considering that Thomas is struggling on the other end still, he just wasn't a net positive for them. Clarkson and Nance are good complementary pieces for LeBron for this year.
2. A couple of nice young players to go with once LeBron leaves this summer. Clarkson is a capable starting PG. Nance is a talented, athletic young big. With Crowder, Thompson, Love, and the Brooklyn pick, that's a starting point for moving forward.
3. A "clear the malcontents" move, as Thomas was not making himself popular in the locker room.

Duke79UNLV77
02-08-2018, 12:29 PM
Cavs trading Thomas and Frye plus their own (not the Brooklyn) 1st round pick to the Lakers for Clarkson and Nance.

Wow, interesting. After just saying that they were going to wait until 2019 to go big for free agents, the Lakers traded for a (declining) star who is about to be a free agent. The Cavs must have quickly judged the IT experiment to be a disaster since they are in win-now mode while they still have LeBron. Maybe, they also are realizing that J.R. Smith is one of the worst starting 2 guards in the league. Where LeBron may end up next year also is quite a mystery.

brlftz
02-08-2018, 12:30 PM
It is a few things:

1. Much better defense and athleticism, both from Clarkson over Thomas and Nance over Frye. Watching that Cleveland/Minnesota game, Cleveland was forced to bring Cedi Osman into the game for defensive purposes down the stretch, because Minnesota was running repeated screen action to get Thomas isolated on Butler. And considering that Thomas is struggling on the other end still, he just wasn't a net positive for them. Clarkson and Nance are good complementary pieces for LeBron for this year.
2. A couple of nice young players to go with once LeBron leaves this summer. Clarkson is a capable starting PG. Nance is a talented, athletic young big. With Crowder, Thompson, Love, and the Brooklyn pick, that's a starting point for moving forward.
3. A "clear the malcontents" move, as Thomas was not making himself popular in the locker room.

My shock isn't over Cleveland doing this, it's over LA doing it. I have a much easier time picturing what Cleveland gets out of this than LA.

Duke79UNLV77
02-08-2018, 12:31 PM
It is a few things:

1. Much better defense and athleticism, both from Clarkson over Thomas and Nance over Frye. Watching that Cleveland/Minnesota game, Cleveland was forced to bring Cedi Osman into the game for defensive purposes down the stretch, because Minnesota was running repeated screen action to get Thomas isolated on Butler. And considering that Thomas is struggling on the other end still, he just wasn't a net positive for them. Clarkson and Nance are good complementary pieces for LeBron for this year.
2. A couple of nice young players to go with once LeBron leaves this summer. Clarkson is a capable starting PG. Nance is a talented, athletic young big. With Crowder, Thompson, Love, and the Brooklyn pick, that's a starting point for moving forward.
3. A "clear the malcontents" move, as Thomas was not making himself popular in the locker room.

Is it now official that the Celts won the Kyrie trade?

Troublemaker
02-08-2018, 12:34 PM
Lakers get a first-round draft pick from Cleveland, too. Nice trade for the Lakers.

Ultimately, the big thing has to be Thomas' hip. I mean the guy scored 29 ppg last season and 22 ppg the season before. He wasn't a pleasure to be around (for Cleveland) but you don't give up on that unless the medical team determined that he's just not going to be the same guy this season with the injury issues.

CDu
02-08-2018, 12:37 PM
Is it now official that the Celts won the Kyrie trade?

I think both parties are pretty happy with that trade.

Boston got at least two years of a star PG who isn't as bad defensively as Thomas was.

Cleveland got two very nice young two-way players, plus a ridiculously good value in Crowder, plus a lottery pick, for just the cost of a guy who was very unhappy, had made a trade demand at a time when trades would be more difficult, and was going to leave for nothing in two years (one of which would be a mediocre year after LeBron left) anyway.

I don't think this trade changes any of that. If anything, I would think Cleveland feels better about the trade today than yesterday.

JasonEvans
02-08-2018, 12:38 PM
My shock isn't over Cleveland doing this, it's over LA doing it. I have a much easier time picturing what Cleveland gets out of this than LA.

LA got out of $26 mil they owed Clarkson next year and in 2019-20. You are either a cheap, young, promising piece in LA or you are a salary cap drain that must be purged.

DarkstarWahoo
02-08-2018, 12:39 PM
Lakers get a first-round draft pick from Cleveland, too. Nice trade for the Lakers.

Ultimately, the big thing has to be Thomas' hip. I mean the guy scored 29 ppg last season and 22 ppg the season before. He wasn't a pleasure to be around (for Cleveland) but you don't give up on that unless the medical team determined that he's just not going to be the same guy this season with the injury issues.

He can't jump anymore. He's an even worse defender than he was in Boston. He's a shell of what he once was. None of that means he wasn't done dirty.

And yes, the Celtics definitively won the Kyrie trade. Cavs gave him up for the Brooklyn pick and a bunch of mediocre swingmen.

CDu
02-08-2018, 12:39 PM
My shock isn't over Cleveland doing this, it's over LA doing it. I have a much easier time picturing what Cleveland gets out of this than LA.

LA gets cap space and a draft pick. They now have the ability to sign two max guys this summer or next summer, and they now have a 1st round draft pick again (their's goes either to Philly or Boston), albeit a mid/late first.

With the emergence of Randle and Kuzma and the presence of Ingram and Ball, Clarkson and Nance saw their roles on the team minimized. And that's a problem because they were under contract through this critical free agent period.

Now, the Lakers have options.

JasonEvans
02-08-2018, 12:44 PM
Ultimately, the big thing has to be Thomas' hip. I mean the guy scored 29 ppg last season and 22 ppg the season before. He wasn't a pleasure to be around (for Cleveland) but you don't give up on that unless the medical team determined that he's just not going to be the same guy this season with the injury issues.

At this time a year ago, IT was talking about how it was about to finally be his turn to get paid. Last year he made only $6.5 mil and he was in the MVP running. After one more successful season, he was going to finally get a max deal.

And then he messed up his hip and I have to wonder what kind of deal he will get this summer. He should have a chance with the Lakers to show if he can be the scoring machine he once was, but if he continues to play the way he was playing with the Cavs, I would think he will have real trouble making more than about $8-10 mil a season on his next deal.

-Jason "I'd feel sorry for the guy, but it is awful hard to feel sorry for someone who makes more every two weeks than I do in a year" Evans

JasonEvans
02-08-2018, 12:56 PM
Hawks just dealt Luke Babbit for Okaro White. I'm not sure what Atlanta gets out of this deal as White is barely a NBA player, and both players are about to be free agents so it is not like this is a salary dump. Maybe this is just about getting worse for Atlanta, something I heartily endorse as they are getting dangerously close to not being the worst team in the league. We must fix that, pronto!!

brlftz
02-08-2018, 12:58 PM
LA gets cap space and a draft pick. They now have the ability to sign two max guys this summer or next summer, and they now have a 1st round draft pick again (their's goes either to Philly or Boston), albeit a mid/late first.

With the emergence of Randle and Kuzma and the presence of Ingram and Ball, Clarkson and Nance saw their roles on the team minimized. And that's a problem because they were under contract through this critical free agent period.

Now, the Lakers have options.

The pick doesn't seem likely to produce a better player than Nance though, it's not going to be a high pick. Didn't realize Clarkson made that much, so that's something I guess. In the end they get to turn two roster spots occupied by guys making medium money into 1 big dollar free agent and 1 minimum dollar player. Is that basically it?

CDu
02-08-2018, 12:58 PM
Hawks just dealt Luke Babbit for Okaro White. I'm not sure what Atlanta gets out of this deal as White is barely a NBA player, and both players are about to be free agents so it is not like this is a salary dump. Maybe this is just about getting worse for Atlanta, something I heartily endorse as they are getting dangerously close to not being the worst team in the league. We must fix that, pronto!!

Yeah, the race for the bottom is really interesting this year. 6-7 teams all have realistic shots at it. The Bulls have really helped their cause of late by taking their time with Kris Dunn's concussion, trading Mirotic, and giving Markannen a nice long paternity leave. Hopefully they trade a few more guys (I'm looking at you, Robin Lopez and Justin Holiday) today.

Owen Meany
02-08-2018, 01:00 PM
Hood to cavs

CDu
02-08-2018, 01:01 PM
The pick doesn't seem likely to produce a better player than Nance though, it's not going to be a high pick. Didn't realize Clarkson made that much, so that's something I guess. In the end they get to turn two roster spots occupied by guys making medium money into 1 big dollar free agent and 1 minimum dollar player. Is that basically it?

The biggest benefit is the cap space. The players in the deal are irrelevant. Frye and Thomas are expiring contracts.

The Lakers can now go after (for example) Paul George and LeBron this summer, or Jimmy Butler and some other max guy next summer. They couldn't do that as of yesterday. They only had enough for one max guy yesterday. And "only room for one" effectively meant "none", given their current status.

The pick is a nice bonus. No, it isn't likely to be as good as Nance or even Clarkson. But it's better than not having any picks.

tbyers11
02-08-2018, 01:04 PM
Hood to cavs

Hood (UTAH) and George Hill (SAC) to CLE
Jae Crowder (CLE) and Derrick Rose (CLE) to UTAH
Joe Johnson (UTAH) and Iman Shumpert (CLE) to SAC

Combine that with Thomas/Frye for Clarkson/Nance swap and the Cavs look a WHOLE lot different than they did last night

New Cavs: Jordan Clarkson, Larry Nance, Jr., Rodney Hood, George Hill
No longer Cavs: Jae Crowder, Iman Shumpert, Isaiah Thomas, Derrick Rose, and Channing Frye, Dwayne Wade

Owen Meany
02-08-2018, 01:05 PM
George Hill to cavs. Cavs taking on major salaries, deep in luxury tax territory. Interesting to see LeBron's response as they go all in on LeBron.

CDu
02-08-2018, 01:06 PM
Hood (UTAH) and George Hill (SAC) to CLE
Jae Crowder (CLE) and Derrick Rose (CLE) to UTAH
Joe Johnson (UTAH) and Iman Shumpert (CLE) to SAC

Combine that with Thomas/Frye for Clarkson/Nance swap and the Cavs look a WHOLE lot different than they did last night

Oh my. That is a HUGE change of fortunes in just a couple of days. Hill and Hood are great acquisitions for the Cavs.

tbyers11
02-08-2018, 01:08 PM
Oh my. That is a HUGE change of fortunes in just a couple of days. Hill and Hood are great acquisitions for the Cavs.

Cleveland is now also trading Dwyane Wade to Miami.

The Woj bombs keep on coming.

Agree that Hill, Hood, and to a lesser extent Nance, make the Cavs better

dukelifer
02-08-2018, 01:10 PM
Oh my. That is a HUGE change of fortunes in just a couple of days. Hill and Hood are great acquisitions for the Cavs.

Yes- this is a big change in the team. It will take a while to integrate all those pieces, however.

BigZ
02-08-2018, 01:11 PM
Wade back to Heat

CDu
02-08-2018, 01:11 PM
Yes- this is a big change in the team. It will take a while to integrate all those pieces, however.

Oh sure. But at least it is a team capable of playing on both ends of the floor. Previously, they were either all-offense/no-defense or all-defense/no-offense players.

And it's not like they were at all integrated with Thomas anyway.

CDu
02-08-2018, 01:18 PM
Is it now official that the Celts won the Kyrie trade?

So, if we're keeping score on the trade (which is unnecessary, as I think both sides are pleased with it), the Cavs gave away 1 competitive year and 1 likely noncompetitive year of a disgruntled, trade-demanding Irving, plus a useless old guy (Frye) and a more useless backup PG (Rose) for:

Jordan Clarkson
George Hill
Rodney Hood
Larry Nance Jr
A 2018 lottery pick
A 2020 2nd round pick (meh)
Ante Zizic (meh)

Not looking quite as bad all of a sudden.

Again, the Celtics are undoubtedly happy with the trade too.

LasVegas
02-08-2018, 01:19 PM
He can't jump anymore. He's an even worse defender than he was in Boston. He's a shell of what he once was. None of that means he wasn't done dirty.

And yes, the Celtics definitively won the Kyrie trade. Cavs gave him up for the Brooklyn pick and a bunch of mediocre swingmen.

What did you want the Cavs to do? You have to take into consideration the timing of kyrieís demand of the trade. He put them in a bad spot. They did all they could. No?

CDu
02-08-2018, 01:22 PM
What did you want the Cavs to do? You have to take into consideration the timing of kyrieís demand of the trade. He put them in a bad spot. They did all they could. No?

Agreed. As a Cavs fan (or the Cavs' organization), given that Irving had made clear his desire to get out of Cleveland as quickly as possible, you have to be pretty happy with where things sit right now. A bunch of good young talent moving forward, a lottery pick coming this summer, and still a very good chance of making the NBA Finals this year.

ncexnyc
02-08-2018, 01:24 PM
So the question now is do the Celtics stand pat, or does Ainge make a panic move?

Also, should we read something more into LeBron's performance last night than it was a great game by a great player?

elvis14
02-08-2018, 01:26 PM
Why such hate for the Cavs?

Ah, yeah...just re-read my post and it was perhaps a little more harsh than I intended. 'hate' was not what I was trying to convey perhaps more of a playful dislike :-)

Interesting trades for the Cavs today.

CDu
02-08-2018, 01:27 PM
So the question now is do the Celtics stand pat, or does Ainge make a panic move?

Also, should we read something more into LeBron's performance last night than it was a great game by a great player?

The Celtics are, at the very least, going to add Greg Monroe. They only have one roster spot available, so anything else would require an additional roster move. But yeah, they can't be feeling quite as comfortable about their playoff chances this year right now than they did yesterday.

I think the Celtics should stay put though. They aren't likely to win a title this year, and a panic move might screw up the long play when they will be getting better (adding Hayward to next year's team, for example).

timmy c
02-08-2018, 01:29 PM
I was when Kyrie was there :-)

And I agree with you. The Nets pick probably won't be THAT valuable; they're already 8th-worst in the league before the teams below them really start to put their minds to tanking. If they can get a good two-way player for a playoff push, they should do it.

Would you be a Cleveland fan if Rodney hood played there?

DarkstarWahoo
02-08-2018, 01:34 PM
I actually love what the Cavs have done here. They cleared out a bunch of dead weight and got players of actual value in return.

flyingdutchdevil
02-08-2018, 01:40 PM
I actually love what the Cavs have done here. They cleared out a bunch of dead weight and got players of actual value in return.

So that Kyrie Irving deal worked out for the Cavs, huh?

CDu
02-08-2018, 01:42 PM
I actually love what the Cavs have done here. They cleared out a bunch of dead weight and got players of actual value in return.

It is an amazing sequence of trades that they have made.

They kept their most valuable assets, and upgraded substantially at the guard positions

PG: George Hill and Jordan Clarkson (both under contract too) over the broken-down Thomas and Derrick Rose
SG: Rodney Hood over Shumpert and the old and broken Wade
PF/C: Nance over Frye

The only loss for them was Crowder, who has a great contract. But Crowder doesn't apparently fit with LeBron at all. Just a really good set of moves, to make them better this year (back to being a legitimate player in the East) and next year.

Duke79UNLV77
02-08-2018, 01:46 PM
So, if we're keeping score on the trade (which is unnecessary, as I think both sides are pleased with it), the Cavs gave away 1 competitive year and 1 likely noncompetitive year of a disgruntled, trade-demanding Irving, plus a useless old guy (Frye) and a more useless backup PG (Rose) for:

Jordan Clarkson
George Hill
Rodney Hood
Larry Nance Jr
A 2018 lottery pick
A 2020 2nd round pick (meh)
Ante Zizic (meh)

Not looking quite as bad all of a sudden.

Again, the Celtics are undoubtedly happy with the trade too.

I know you're one of Kyrie's more persistent critics, but he's deservedly a top-5 MVP candidate. The Cavs would have waltzed to another Finals with him. Plus, the Cavs partly put themselves into the difficult position by first trying to trade Kyrie and then not making any moves to improve the supporting cast until after they dealt Kyrie (which I believe he termed "interesting" at the time). I do think Cleveland came out very well in the Hood/Hill trade. I don't know that it's fair to combine it's big win in that trade to argue that they did not lose the Kyrie trade.

kshepinthehouse
02-08-2018, 01:48 PM
I actually love what the Cavs have done here. They cleared out a bunch of dead weight and got players of actual value in return.

This is robbery by the Cavs, how did the other teams in the NBA let them do this?

DarkstarWahoo
02-08-2018, 01:54 PM
So that Kyrie Irving deal worked out for the Cavs, huh?

I may have jumped the gun slightly. :)

I will say that I donít view it as a success by the metrics the Cavs were most likely thinking of when they made the trade. But to get out from under Thomas and all those other guys and get what theyíve gotten is pretty impressive.

CDu
02-08-2018, 01:54 PM
I know you're one of Kyrie's more persistent critics, but he's deservedly a top-5 MVP candidate. The Cavs would have waltzed to another Finals with him. Plus, the Cavs partly put themselves into the difficult position by first trying to trade Kyrie and then not making any moves to improve the supporting cast until after they dealt Kyrie (which I believe he termed "interesting" at the time). I do think Cleveland came out very well in the Hood/Hill trade. I don't know that it's fair to combine it's big win in that trade to argue that they did not lose the Kyrie trade.

I don't think I'm a critic of Irving. I like him a lot. He's a great player. I'm just not as unabashed a fan of his as some are here.

But the reality is that he wanted out. I think both sides have spun the "how we got there", but I do suspect that he wasn't happy in Cleveland, and he wasn't happy being the (distant) #2 behind LeBron. He wanted to be a star. He's tried to sell it otherwise, but you can see it come out in his interviews (trashing the city of Cleveland, and the MacMullen piece which flat-out said he wanted to be the man). And that's all fine.

But he wasn't happy in Cleveland. And he eventually made a trade demand, at a time that left Cleveland with limited options. To not trade him would have made things really uncomfortable in the organization. So they dealt him.

And I think it is absolutely fair to combine the series of trades, because they wouldn't have been able to make these moves without the pieces that they got from Boston. They by rule couldn't trade their own first-round pick without the Brooklyn pick. They wouldn't have had Crowder, which was critical in getting Hood and Hill. Neither of those trades happens without the Irving trade.

Look, Boston is absolutely happy with the trade. And they should be. They got a star for at least two years and probably longer for a lottery pick and guys that weren't going to get them over the top. That's a win.

But Cleveland is ALSO absolutely happy with the trade. They improved their roster depth and versatility, got rid of a guy who wasn't happy and had made it known, still have a great shot at a Finals appearance this year, and are better positioned moving forward thanks to adding a lottery pick this offseason.

Both teams won. Both are in better positions as organizations now than they were prior to the deal. Which is the way that trades are ideally supposed to work.

flyingdutchdevil
02-08-2018, 01:56 PM
So, if we're keeping score on the trade (which is unnecessary, as I think both sides are pleased with it), the Cavs gave away 1 competitive year and 1 likely noncompetitive year of a disgruntled, trade-demanding Irving, plus a useless old guy (Frye) and a more useless backup PG (Rose) for:

Jordan Clarkson
George Hill
Rodney Hood
Larry Nance Jr
A 2018 lottery pick
A 2020 2nd round pick (meh)
Ante Zizic (meh)

Not looking quite as bad all of a sudden.

Again, the Celtics are undoubtedly happy with the trade too.

Not totally accurate. The Cavs traded their own 1st round pick, Channing Frye, Iman Shumpert, Derrick Rose, and $3M in cash, all of which weren't part of the Kyrie trade.

The 1st round pick translates to Grayson Allen right now (nbadraft.net).

IMO, the Celtics absolutely won that trade. Also, if you're gonna add what the Cav trade assets have now turned into, you also need to factor in the turmoil the Cavs faced over the last 1-2 months and the adjustments they'll have to make over the next 2-3 months. Oh, and the turmoil likely caused Lebron and Wade their friendship.

CDu
02-08-2018, 02:02 PM
Not totally accurate. The Cavs traded their own 1st round pick, Channing Frye, Iman Shumpert, Derrick Rose, and $3M in cash, all of which weren't part of the Kyrie trade.

Frye and Rose were specifically included in my post. But yes, they traded a mid/late (and likely to get worse after today) first round pick. Andetting rid of Shumpert is actually a plus, as he was not a good player and under a hefty-ish contract.

The 1st round pick translates to Grayson Allen right now (nbadraft.net).


IMO, the Celtics absolutely won that trade. Also, if you're gonna add what the Cav trade assets have now turned into, you also need to factor in the turmoil the Cavs faced over the last 1-2 months and the adjustments they'll have to make over the next 2-3 months. Oh, and the turmoil likely caused Lebron and Wade their friendship.

I doubt LeBron is all that sad about losing Wade, who wasn't helping the team. And since Wade gets to go "home" to Miami, now LeBron doesn't have to feel bad that the Cavs cut Wade or sent him to a bad destination. But yes, they added a few weeks of turmoil (the turmoil didn't start until Thomas returned from injury). But you're omitting the months of internal turmoil that would have existed with their unhappy Irving. I would consider that a wash.

Like I said, I think both teams won in that trade. Boston got its star. Cleveland got out of a headache, added a lottery pick (upgrading by probably 15-20 spots in the draft, which is a HUGE difference), and improved their depth, their future, and their chances in this year's playoffs as well.

DukieInBrasil
02-08-2018, 02:04 PM
So, if we're keeping score on the trade (which is unnecessary, as I think both sides are pleased with it), the Cavs gave away 1 competitive year and 1 likely noncompetitive year of a disgruntled, trade-demanding Irving, plus a useless old guy (Frye) and a more useless backup PG (Rose) for:

Jordan Clarkson
George Hill
Rodney Hood
Larry Nance Jr
A 2018 lottery pick
A 2020 2nd round pick (meh)
Ante Zizic (meh)

Not looking quite as bad all of a sudden.

Again, the Celtics are undoubtedly happy with the trade too.

you keep bringing up all these trades that happened after the trade in question. i call shenanigans on that. The Cavs didn't trade for IT so that they could trade him and other people not acquired in the Kyrie trade for other people later.
IT was a huge bust for CLE, they realized that and then made other moves, which was smart. But that is not the Kyrie - IT etc trade. Just b/c CLE was able to take the sh!t end of the trade they got and get something better months after the fact does not make the original trade any different.

Troublemaker
02-08-2018, 02:06 PM
This is robbery by the Cavs, how did the other teams in the NBA let them do this?

Which trade didn't make sense from the perspective of the team that traded away?

Remember, this was a buyer's market, with more sellers than buyers out there. A perfect situation for a contending team like the Cavs to take advantage of.

BTW, I flat out think the Cavs lost the Lakers trade. I like Nance Jr a lot but he has to learn how to shoot, and I've always been unimpressed with Clarkson, whom the Lakers have been trying to trade away for ages. The Lakers managed to make their trade, clear salary cap space, and get a first-rounder out of it, to boot. When the trade grades go up from guys like Kevin Pelton, the Lakers will be graded with an A, imo.

You tell me what was wrong with the Utah and Sacramento trades that they made with Cleveland, and then I'll respond.

Troublemaker
02-08-2018, 02:10 PM
Would you be a Cleveland fan if Rodney hood played there?

Yes! They're back on the whitelist for sure.

CDu
02-08-2018, 02:15 PM
you keep bringing up all these trades that happened after the trade in question. i call shenanigans on that. The Cavs didn't trade for IT so that they could trade him and other people not acquired in the Kyrie trade for other people later.
IT was a huge bust for CLE, they realized that and then made other moves, which was smart. But that is not the Kyrie - IT etc trade. Just b/c CLE was able to take the sh!t end of the trade they got and get something better months after the fact does not make the original trade any different.

You can think whatever you want. I call shenanigans on everyone here ignoring the state of the franchise prior to that trade. They HAD to move Irving at that point. He was champing at the bit to be a star anyway, and then got really pissed that they explored a trade involving him. He demanded a trade. It was not a workable situation moving forward. That, in my opinion, HAS to be considered in the trade.

The value of the Irving/Thomas trade to Cleveland was two-fold:
- Get as much as they could for a player who had made clear (and public) he wasn't happy in Cleveland
- Get a lottery pick
- Remain as competitive as possible this year

They got a player that they hoped would be a facsimile of Irving, but also would be a free agent this summer (important given that LeBron was to be a free agent this summer anyway). They also got a guy who would be a trade asset moving forward or a solid role player on a great deal in the long-term. And they got a lottery pick.

So I would argue that that, even before today, they were quite happy with the deal. They won their side of that deal. Boston won their side of the deal. Both sides were happy with the deal.

So I think it's absolutely fair to include the subsequent Crowder trade as part of the deal, as I'm sure that they considered Crowder's contract as a trade chip (for a team over the cap, that's always important) a part of the value of the Irving trade. So getting Hood and Hill for Crowder should absolutely be a part of the package in the grand scheme of things.

If you want to exclude the Thomas part of it (and I can understand your reasoning, although I don't agree), then it looks BETTER for Cleveland:

Disgruntled Irving + the corpse of Derrick Rose (signed on a minimum deal) for Thomas, Hood, Hill, a 2018 lottery pick, a 2020 2nd round pick from Miami, and Zizic.

CDu
02-08-2018, 02:20 PM
Which trade didn't make sense from the perspective of the team that traded away?

Remember, this was a buyer's market, with more sellers than buyers out there. A perfect situation for a contending team like the Cavs to take advantage of.

BTW, I flat out think the Cavs lost the Lakers trade. I like Nance Jr a lot but he has to learn how to shoot, and I've always been unimpressed with Clarkson, whom the Lakers have been trying to trade away for ages. The Lakers managed to make their trade, clear salary cap space, and get a first-rounder out of it, to boot. When the trade grades go up from guys like Kevin Pelton, the Lakers will be graded with an A, imo.

You tell me what was wrong with the Utah and Sacramento trades that they made with Cleveland, and then I'll respond.

Utah traded a guy they weren't going to realistically keep (Hood) for a solid role player under a good contract for a few more years (Crowder). Maybe they could have gotten more, but who knows. Certainly not a brainless deal for them. A win for both sides.

The LA trade is the most interesting. A big part of the value is probably similar to the Irving trade in that Thomas was causing trouble in the clubhouse, and not playing well enough to make it worthwhile to keep him. And they got talented young players in return, at the cost of a mid/late first round pick. Essentially, they traded Nance for a pick that isn't likely to be as good as Nance, and traded the headache of Thomas for a younger, better defender in Clarkson. Frye is collateral damage and irrelevant.

The Lakers are certainly happiest of the two happier teams in that trade, though. They took a step back on their bench, but opened the possibility of getting two stars this summer. If they do consolidate that into James and George, they'll be thrilled.

elvis14
02-08-2018, 02:21 PM
Not totally accurate. The Cavs traded their own 1st round pick, Channing Frye, Iman Shumpert, Derrick Rose, and $3M in cash, all of which weren't part of the Kyrie trade.

The 1st round pick translates to Grayson Allen right now (nbadraft.net).

IMO, the Celtics absolutely won that trade. Also, if you're gonna add what the Cav trade assets have now turned into, you also need to factor in the turmoil the Cavs faced over the last 1-2 months and the adjustments they'll have to make over the next 2-3 months. Oh, and the turmoil likely caused Lebron and Wade their friendship.

I was thinking that the Celtics won the trade and that the Cavs had done OK today....then you threw in the Grayson Allen projection. That changes everything! Cavs screwed up big time if it cost them Grayson! :p

flyingdutchdevil
02-08-2018, 02:36 PM
You can think whatever you want. I call shenanigans on everyone here ignoring the state of the franchise prior to that trade. They HAD to move Irving at that point. He was champing at the bit to be a star anyway, and then got really pissed that they explored a trade involving him. He demanded a trade. It was not a workable situation moving forward. That, in my opinion, HAS to be considered in the trade.

The value of the Irving/Thomas trade to Cleveland was two-fold:
- Get as much as they could for a player who had made clear (and public) he wasn't happy in Cleveland
- Get a lottery pick
- Remain as competitive as possible this year

They got a player that they hoped would be a facsimile of Irving, but also would be a free agent this summer (important given that LeBron was to be a free agent this summer anyway). They also got a guy who would be a trade asset moving forward or a solid role player on a great deal in the long-term. And they got a lottery pick.

So I would argue that that, even before today, they were quite happy with the deal. They won their side of that deal. Boston won their side of the deal. Both sides were happy with the deal.

So I think it's absolutely fair to include the subsequent Crowder trade as part of the deal, as I'm sure that they considered Crowder's contract as a trade chip (for a team over the cap, that's always important) a part of the value of the Irving trade. So getting Hood and Hill for Crowder should absolutely be a part of the package in the grand scheme of things.

If you want to exclude the Thomas part of it (and I can understand your reasoning, although I don't agree), then it looks BETTER for Cleveland:

Disgruntled Irving + the corpse of Derrick Rose (signed on a minimum deal) for Thomas, Hood, Hill, a 2018 lottery pick, a 2020 2nd round pick from Miami, and Zizic.

My issue with your reasoning is you are failing to recognize how horrible the initial trade was (and no, I don't for one second think the Nets pick will land a player as good as Irving). Do you think the Cavs wanted to use Thomas and Crowder as trade-bait 5 months later? You are extrapolating by saying, "what the Cavs now have makes the August 2017 trade look good." To me, that is akin to saying, "the Lakers didn't fleece the Grizzlies with the Pau trade because it got them rights to Marc Gasol, who was a nothing player at the time of the trade." You have to look at trades in a vacuum, because playing this game can get out of hand. For instance, you say the Noah signing was horrendous (and I agree). But what if the Knicks trade Noah next year along with a 1st round pick in return for mediocre players and a crappy 2nd round pick but that 2nd round pick turns out to be an All-Star? Does that make the Noah signing really good because it led to a pick that yielded an All-Star? To me, that makes no sense.

You are also spinning the Crowder trade as a trade chip moreso than what analysts were calling it during the Irving-Thomas trade: an exceptional defensive player who doesn't hurt the Cavs's salary cap.

Do I think the Cavs did well in February 2018 with their trades? Yup. Do I think the Cavs did well with their August 2017 trades? Nope.

CDu
02-08-2018, 02:45 PM
My issue with your reasoning is you are failing to recognize how horrible the initial trade was (and no, I don't for one second think the Nets pick will land a player as good as Irving). Do you think the Cavs wanted to use Thomas and Crowder as trade-bait 5 months later? You are extrapolating by saying, "what the Cavs now have makes the August 2017 trade look good." To me, that is akin to saying, "the Lakers didn't fleece the Grizzlies with the Pau trade because it got them rights to Marc Gasol, who was a nothing player at the time of the trade." You have to look at trades in a vacuum, because playing this game can get out of hand. For instance, you say the Noah signing was horrendous (and I agree). But what if the Knicks trade Noah next year along with a 1st round pick in return for mediocre players and a crappy 2nd round pick but that 2nd round pick turns out to be an All-Star? Does that make the Noah signing really good because it led to a pick that yielded an All-Star? To me, that makes no sense.

You are also spinning the Crowder trade as a trade chip moreso than what analysts were calling it during the Irving-Thomas trade: an exceptional defensive player who doesn't hurt the Cavs's salary cap.

Do I think the Cavs did well in February 2018 with their trades? Yup. Do I think the Cavs did well with their August 2017 trades? Nope.

Again, you can think whatever you want. I think you are failing to note the landscape Cleveland was in at the time of the trade. If things were hunky-dory in Cleveland, they probably don't make that deal. But things WERE NOT GOOD there. For whatever reasons (probably issues on both sides), Irving and Cleveland were not going to work together moving forward. They HAD to trade Irving, or lose him for nothing and have an unhappy clubhouse in the meantime. And given that teams had largely made their moves at that point, the options were limited. That all matters in this.

No, the lottery pick is not likely to be as good as Irving. But it also is going to be cheaper, and not a malcontent, and under contract for 3 more years than Irving would be. And you know what? There is still the chance that the pick will in fact be better than Irving. Do I think it will be? No. But it might. And it doesn't have to be for it to still be a win for Cleveland too, given the position that they were in (again, in part of their own doing).

I'm not for one minute suggesting that Boston didn't also win in this trade. It got them a bona fide star, and helped set them up (along with some other trades) to get Hayward. The cost was essentially that pick plus Crowder's wonderful contract.

And I do absolutely think that Crowder's contract was a point of value in the trade for Cleveland. I don't know whether they'd plan to move him this year or next, but they were almost certainly going to move him at some point. It just happened now. But I'm quite sure that it was going to happen at some point. So, yeah, I think it is absolutely fair to include it as part of the value of the trade.

curtis325
02-08-2018, 02:58 PM
Again, you can think whatever you want. I think you are failing to note the landscape Cleveland was in at the time of the trade. If things were hunky-dory in Cleveland, they probably don't make that deal. But things WERE NOT GOOD there. For whatever reasons (probably issues on both sides), Irving and Cleveland were not going to work together moving forward. They HAD to trade Irving, or lose him for nothing and have an unhappy clubhouse in the meantime. And given that teams had largely made their moves at that point, the options were limited. That all matters in this.

No, the lottery pick is not likely to be as good as Irving. But it also is going to be cheaper, and not a malcontent, and under contract for 3 more years than Irving would be. And you know what? There is still the chance that the pick will in fact be better than Irving. Do I think it will be? No. But it might. And it doesn't have to be for it to still be a win for Cleveland too, given the position that they were in (again, in part of their own doing).

I'm not for one minute suggesting that Boston didn't also win in this trade. It got them a bona fide star, and helped set them up (along with some other trades) to get Hayward. The cost was essentially that pick plus Crowder's wonderful contract.

And I do absolutely think that Crowder's contract was a point of value in the trade for Cleveland. I don't know whether they'd plan to move him this year or next, but they were almost certainly going to move him at some point. It just happened now. But I'm quite sure that it was going to happen at some point. So, yeah, I think it is absolutely fair to include it as part of the value of the trade.

That pick could be Bagley, no?

CDu
02-08-2018, 03:02 PM
That pick could be Bagley, no?

It could. Or Ayton. There are 5-6 guys who could end up being absolute studs in this draft. The pick could (far from guaranteed, but could) get one of them. And it is quite conceivable that any of them (especially given the difference in salary and team control) would be more valuable than Irving.

That's why, even if you exclude the other stuff that happened today, Cleveland is still probably happy with the trade.

Now, to be fair, that's just an "if" right now. And it works both ways. If the pick ends up being, say, #13 (which is also possible, though probably less likely than it being top-3), then the story certainly changes. The guy at #13 is probably not going to be a star in the league.

Troublemaker
02-08-2018, 03:14 PM
Which trade didn't make sense from the perspective of the team that traded away?

Remember, this was a buyer's market, with more sellers than buyers out there. A perfect situation for a contending team like the Cavs to take advantage of.

BTW, I flat out think the Cavs lost the Lakers trade. I like Nance Jr a lot but he has to learn how to shoot, and I've always been unimpressed with Clarkson, whom the Lakers have been trying to trade away for ages. The Lakers managed to make their trade, clear salary cap space, and get a first-rounder out of it, to boot. When the trade grades go up from guys like Kevin Pelton, the Lakers will be graded with an A, imo.

You tell me what was wrong with the Utah and Sacramento trades that they made with Cleveland, and then I'll respond.

Yep. For ESPN Insiders, Pelton gives the Lakers an A and hammers the Cavs with a D (http://www.espn.com/nba/insider/story/_/id/22368618/isaiah-thomas-larry-nance-jordan-clarkson-trade-grades-lakers-cleveland-deal-nba).

kshepinthehouse
02-08-2018, 03:21 PM
Yep. For ESPN Insiders, Pelton gives the Lakers an A and hammers the Cavs with a D (http://www.espn.com/nba/insider/story/_/id/22368618/isaiah-thomas-larry-nance-jordan-clarkson-trade-grades-lakers-cleveland-deal-nba).

George Hill and Rodney Hood for a bunch of nothing. Crowder is a decent player although he didn't meet expectations in Cleveland. To walk away with the two best players in a 3 team deal is a steal in my opinion. Crowder, Rose, Shumpert and a 2nd round pick for Hood and Hill?

thedukelamere
02-08-2018, 03:25 PM
The guy at #13 is probably not going to be a star in the league.

For every Kobe ('96) or Karl Malone ('85), there's a Kendall Marshall ('12) or a player whose mother was allotted use of a private jet to see him play ('09).

CDu
02-08-2018, 03:31 PM
Yep. For ESPN Insiders, Pelton gives the Lakers an A and hammers the Cavs with a D (http://www.espn.com/nba/insider/story/_/id/22368618/isaiah-thomas-larry-nance-jordan-clarkson-trade-grades-lakers-cleveland-deal-nba).

I suspect that a decent chunk of this was off-court stuff. As in, Thomas is causing a big headache, and it is only going to get worse when we bring in Hill and bench Thomas. Let's do what we have to do to get him out of here.

They also get younger and much more athletic in the deal, but did overpay with the pick. Although the value of the pick likely declines some now thanks to the other trade.

From LA's perspective, it's a no-brainer.

flyingdutchdevil
02-08-2018, 03:41 PM
I suspect that a decent chunk of this was off-court stuff. As in, Thomas is causing a big headache, and it is only going to get worse when we bring in Hill and bench Thomas. Let's do what we have to do to get him out of here.

They also get younger and much more athletic in the deal, but did overpay with the pick. Although the value of the pick likely declines some now thanks to the other trade.

From LA's perspective, it's a no-brainer.

Well, the Lakers did get a 1st round pick in an era where 1st round picks are prioritized over All-Star rentals (see Jordan, DeAndre). Also, Clarkson is getting paid ~$26M over the next 2 years (2018-2020). Is he really worth that? And Nance is a horrible shooter who can't add much value to the Cavs.

I think Pelton is overly harsh here. I really like Clarkson. He's like a poor man's Lou Williams. But his contract kinda sucks. I'd give the Lakers a B and the Cavs a B. It helps both teams out, but there is a lot wrong with that trade.

Troublemaker
02-08-2018, 03:47 PM
George Hill and Rodney Hood for a bunch of nothing. Crowder is a decent player although he didn't meet expectations in Cleveland. To walk away with the two best players in a 3 team deal is a steal in my opinion. Crowder, Rose, Shumpert and a 2nd round pick for Hood and Hill?

You're still not looking at it from the other teams' perspective? Do you stick with the complaint below?


This is robbery by the Cavs, how did the other teams in the NBA let them do this?

CDu already explained the Jazz situation. Hood is a pending free agent that they weren't going to be able to re-sign. Why not get a good role player like Crowder on a great long-term contract out of it? The Jazz trade grade will range from B to A as well.

I think you agree the Lakers did well.

So all that remains is Sacramento. That was the most questionable of the trades but still understandable from their perspective. They're trying to tank, and George Hill hurts that effort. He also turns 32 in May and is due $19M and $18M over the next two seasons. The Kings are quite happy with De'Aaron Fox and Frank Mason, their rookie PGs, and want to find additional playing time for them.

Like I said, it was a buyers' market. If your contending team couldn't take advantage of a buyers' market to get a George Hill or Rodney Hood, shame on them.

CDu
02-08-2018, 08:01 PM
Well, the Lakers did get a 1st round pick in an era where 1st round picks are prioritized over All-Star rentals (see Jordan, DeAndre). Also, Clarkson is getting paid ~$26M over the next 2 years (2018-2020). Is he really worth that? And Nance is a horrible shooter who can't add much value to the Cavs.

I think Pelton is overly harsh here. I really like Clarkson. He's like a poor man's Lou Williams. But his contract kinda sucks. I'd give the Lakers a B and the Cavs a B. It helps both teams out, but there is a lot wrong with that trade.

I actually think Nance is the more valuable pickup for the Cavs. He is basically a younger, more athletic version of what Thompson gives them. Switchable defender capable of guarding four positions, great rim-running option in the PnR with James, solid rebounder.

Clarkson is better than folks think, but not cheap and basically a good backup PG but below-par starter. Definite upgrade over Rose, especially in terms of fit with LeBron as Clarkson can play off-ball.

But I think the value add is Nance, who can add some of what Thompson used to give them.

BD80
02-08-2018, 08:59 PM
The Celtics have definitely and definitively "won" the Kyrie trade. Kyrie is by far the best player in the deal, unless the pick is top 3 and then a debate could ensue.

More to the point, the Cavs had to give a motivated Kyrie to their closest competition. If the same pieces had been involved but with a middling team in the west, it would have looked much better for the Cavs.

The Cavs recent moves are brilliant, but WAY expensive. Hill and Clarkston could gel beautifully with the Cavs, but they are both overpayed. Hood is just a rental, which is OK in hunting a title this year, unless they are willing to go way over the salary cap to keep Hood next year. I think the Cavs have been over the cap for a while, so this year and next would be very expensive if they stay over the cap.

The most amusing facet of the deals is ball-dominant PG and media slut IT going to the Lakers to compete with ball-dominant PG and media slut Lonzo Ball.

brevity
02-08-2018, 10:13 PM
I actually think Nance is the more valuable pickup for the Cavs.

Larry Nance traded to the Cleveland Cavaliers, again? This feels underreported to me.

8061

Junior was traded during the 2017-2018 season. Senior was traded during the 1987-1988 season.

BD80
02-08-2018, 10:50 PM
... The most amusing facet of the deals is ball-dominant PG and media slut IT going to the Lakers to compete with ball-dominant PG and media slut Lonzo Ball.

And, on cue, IT's agent texting the media stating that IT "WILL NOT COME OFF THE BENCH" in LA and telling local media that things didn't work because IT is "a ball dominant player" and in Cleveland it was LeBron's ball.

CDu
02-08-2018, 11:04 PM
The most amusing facet of the deals is ball-dominant PG and media slut IT going to the Lakers to compete with ball-dominant PG and media slut Lonzo Ball.

To be fair, I donít think Lonzo is a media whore. His dad is though. Lonzo seems fairly down to Earth.

BD80
02-09-2018, 04:04 AM
To be fair, I donít think Lonzo is a media whore. His dad is though. Lonzo seems fairly down to Earth.

Lonzo doesn't stop his dad's antics and has yet to disavow any statements his dad has made.

Much like IT's agent making the statements right after the trade. IT didn't specifically say those things, they were said on his behalf. Adoptive admissions.

flyingdutchdevil
02-09-2018, 08:54 AM
http://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/22369212/zach-lowe-lebron-james-cleveland-cavaliers-2018-nba-trade-deadline

First line of the article:


The Cleveland Cavaliers lost the Kyrie Irving trade.

CDu
02-09-2018, 09:00 AM
http://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/22369212/zach-lowe-lebron-james-cleveland-cavaliers-2018-nba-trade-deadline

First line of the article:

Second line of the article:

"They also made the best available Kyrie Irving trade, solely because of the one asset Cleveland held onto during Thursday's borderline unprecedented two-hour frenzy: the Nets pick, which could enter the lottery anywhere from No. 1 to No. 8. (Seriously: Look how close the standings are at the bottom.)"

BigZ
02-09-2018, 09:07 AM
I think the Cavs will win the East now.

FerryFor50
02-09-2018, 09:24 AM
Second line of the article:

"They also made the best available Kyrie Irving trade, solely because of the one asset Cleveland held onto during Thursday's borderline unprecedented two-hour frenzy: the Nets pick, which could enter the lottery anywhere from No. 1 to No. 8. (Seriously: Look how close the standings are at the bottom.)"

I'm not sure why people keep banging on this "Cavs lost the Irving trade" drum. As you've pointed out several times, the Cavs really had no choice. Irving wanted out. It was going to hurt team chemistry. It was either get the best deal you can find or let him walk for nothing in free agency.

While IT didn't regain his old form, he was also a bad fit for the Cavs. He is best running the show. He doesn't play off ball well. He doesn't spot up well. He's too small to drive effectively all the time. And he's a liability on defense on a team that needed defense. He'll be better in LA, I suspect, but the Cavs turned him and some loose assets into what will probably become a better defensive team, without losing too much on offense.

flyingdutchdevil
02-09-2018, 09:37 AM
I'm not sure why people keep banging on this "Cavs lost the Irving trade" drum. As you've pointed out several times, the Cavs really had no choice. Irving wanted out. It was going to hurt team chemistry. It was either get the best deal you can find or let him walk for nothing in free agency.

While IT didn't regain his old form, he was also a bad fit for the Cavs. He is best running the show. He doesn't play off ball well. He doesn't spot up well. He's too small to drive effectively all the time. And he's a liability on defense on a team that needed defense. He'll be better in LA, I suspect, but the Cavs turned him and some loose assets into what will probably become a better defensive team, without losing too much on offense.

The reason is because, at the time of the trade, folks (not necessarily here) were harping that the Cavs "won" the trade. As a Celtics fan, it was frustrating. Because while the Celtics may not have the best talent in the NBA, we feel we certainly have the best combined front office and coaching staff.

CDu
02-09-2018, 09:42 AM
I'm not sure why people keep banging on this "Cavs lost the Irving trade" drum. As you've pointed out several times, the Cavs really had no choice. Irving wanted out. It was going to hurt team chemistry. It was either get the best deal you can find or let him walk for nothing in free agency.

Agreed. I think a lot of it is that folks are unabashed Irving fans (nothing wrong with that, but it does mar objectivity) that are looking to bash the Cavs (and as a Bulls fan, I generally find nothing wrong with bashing the Cavs). And there are a few unabashed Celtics fans too, which adds a bit to it.

So folks aren't looking at the full picture. It had become an untenable situation, likely for a combination of reasons on the fault of both sides. But it was an untenable situation. More importantly, it was PUBLICLY an untenable situation. A move had to be made. And the timing of it all meant that there weren't great options to be had. Teams had used their cap space. Teams had traded prior to the draft.

So given the landscape that the Cavs faced, I think they are absolutely happy with the deal. Because it was the best that they could possibly get. And it STILL could wind up an unquestioned win for the Cavs if they make the Finals this year and the Brooklyn pick winds up top-3.

The Celtics are also very happy with the deal, obviously. It gave them the star that they desperately needed, and cost them only essentially an expiring contract that had serious size limitations and apparently a very severe injury, a lottery pick, and a role player.

It was an absolute win for the Celtics. And, given the circumstances, it was an absolute win for the Cavs. The Celtics took advantage of a bad situation, and the Cavs got the best they could out of a bad situation. And they still could actually end up getting better value out of the deal, even though they were working with a pocket 2/7 off-suit.


While IT didn't regain his old form, he was also a bad fit for the Cavs. He is best running the show. He doesn't play off ball well. He doesn't spot up well. He's too small to drive effectively all the time. And he's a liability on defense on a team that needed defense. He'll be better in LA, I suspect, but the Cavs turned him and some loose assets into what will probably become a better defensive team, without losing too much on offense.

Yeah, watching the Cavs/TWolves game made it painfully obvious that Thomas and James don't fit together, for all the reasons you laid out. The flurry of moves they made yesterday was phenomenal, and will really change that team moving forward for the better. And they don't have the locker room distraction that Thomas was starting to cause the last few weeks (confronting Kevin Love, badmouthing the coaching staff, all while playing really badly).

Should make the Eastern Conference playoffs very interesting this year, for sure. As a Bulls fan, I hate to see Cleveland (or, more specifically, LeBron) becoming relevant again. But they really had a good day yesterday.

FerryFor50
02-09-2018, 09:46 AM
And they don't have the locker room distraction that Thomas was starting to cause the last few weeks (confronting Kevin Love, badmouthing the coaching staff, all while playing really badly).


This part, I never understood. IT was demonstrably hurt by being shipped off by the Celtics - and rightfully so, given all he had done for them and how he played through his sister's death.

But to come to Cleveland, which is LeBron's team, and start to play general? Especially when you were hurt most of the season and weren't great when you came back? Yea, he had to go.

flyingdutchdevil
02-09-2018, 09:48 AM
This part, I never understood. IT was demonstrably hurt by being shipped off by the Celtics - and rightfully so, given all he had done for them and how he played through his sister's death.

But to come to Cleveland, which is LeBron's team, and start to play general? Especially when you were hurt most of the season and weren't great when you came back? Yea, he had to go.

Actually, Napoleon was an emporer... :D

FerryFor50
02-09-2018, 09:55 AM
Actually, Napoleon was an emporer... :D

He was a general first. ;)

elvis14
02-09-2018, 10:14 AM
I'm not sure why people keep banging on this "Cavs lost the Irving trade" drum.

It's probably because the Cavs lost the Irving trade and people keep banging on the "yeah but they had no choice" drum. Nobody's disputing that they didn't have a choice.

What I find much more interesting at this point is the series of trades they made yesterday.

Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15
02-09-2018, 10:31 AM
It's probably because the Cavs lost the Irving trade and people keep banging on the "yeah but they had no choice" drum. Nobody's disputing that they didn't have a choice.

What I find much more interesting at this point is the series of trades they made yesterday.

Yeah, I'm with you. Hard to see how the Cavs could have conceivably won this trade. That isn't somehow ameliorated by the fact that Kyrie may or may not have forced his hand.

How about a metaphor... If I'm down on my luck and desperate for money, and you know it and I sell you my truck for $20 - it doesn't matter that I didn't have any better options, you win the trade. Even if we both walk away satisfied, I got something way more valuable than you did.

I'd like to hear anyone to argue that the Celtics didn't get better value from that trade.

CDu
02-09-2018, 10:34 AM
Yeah, I'm with you. Hard to see how the Cavs could have conceivably won this trade. That isn't somehow ameliorated by the fact that Kyrie may or may not have forced his hand.

How about a metaphor... If I'm down on my luck and desperate for money, and you know it and I sell you my truck for $20 - it doesn't matter that I didn't have any better options, you win the trade. Even if we both walk away satisfied, I got something way more valuable than you did.

I'd like to hear anyone to argue that the Celtics didn't get better value from that trade.

If the Brooklyn pick winds up #1-3, the Celtics very possibly didn't get better value from that trade.

The specific value of that trade is still, at this time, not fully known.

As of on-court value at the moment, the Celtics absolutely got the best value in the trade. And it may very well wind up that they get the best value in the trade after all is said and done (I would consider that the likely outcome, but very far from certain at this point).

FerryFor50
02-09-2018, 10:37 AM
If the Brooklyn pick winds up #1-3, the Celtics very possibly didn't get better value from that trade.

The specific value of that trade is still, at this time, not fully known.

As of on-court value at the moment, the Celtics absolutely got the best value in the trade. And it may very well wind up that they get the best value in the trade after all is said and done (I would consider that the likely outcome, but very far from certain at this point).

Although, Kyrie has missed several games with injury this season (he's also a bit injury prone, as Duke fans are well aware of). And even if the pick is 1-3, who knows if the Cavs get the better of the deal. Everyone thought Wiggins for Kevin Love was a good idea at the time, too. Now, maybe not so much.

flyingdutchdevil
02-09-2018, 10:38 AM
Yeah, I'm with you. Hard to see how the Cavs could have conceivably won this trade. That isn't somehow ameliorated by the fact that Kyrie may or may not have forced his hand.

How about a metaphor... If I'm down on my luck and desperate for money, and you know it and I sell you my truck for $20 - it doesn't matter that I didn't have any better options, you win the trade. Even if we both walk away satisfied, I got something way more valuable than you did.

I'd like to hear anyone to argue that the Celtics didn't get better value from that trade.

5 months ago, a lot of folks would have argued that. But 5 months ago, no one knew how Thomas would come back from injury. No one knew that Thomas's Napoleon syndrome would unleash itself in Cleveland. No one knew that Crowder couldn't function without Stevens. And no one knew how Kyrie would function without Lebron.

As a hardcore Celts fan, I loved this trade then and I love it more now. Couple that with how the Celts fleeced the Sixers with Fultz/Tatum, and losing the Nets pick doesn't look so bad. Sure, it would help to get Anthony Davis, but wouldn't the Pelicans want Lakers Pick + Brown + Rozier + a 2019 first rounder for Davis?

Oh my lord. A starting line-up of Irving-Hayward-Tatum-Horford-Davis?

Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15
02-09-2018, 10:48 AM
Although, Kyrie has missed several games with injury this season (he's also a bit injury prone, as Duke fans are well aware of). And even if the pick is 1-3, who knows if the Cavs get the better of the deal. Everyone thought Wiggins for Kevin Love was a good idea at the time, too. Now, maybe not so much.

How is a #3 pick better than a former #1 pick perennial All-Star, borderline All-NBA proven commodity?

CDu
02-09-2018, 10:52 AM
Although, Kyrie has missed several games with injury this season (he's also a bit injury prone, as Duke fans are well aware of). And even if the pick is 1-3, who knows if the Cavs get the better of the deal. Everyone thought Wiggins for Kevin Love was a good idea at the time, too. Now, maybe not so much.

No doubt. Just saying that the jury is still very much out. The most valuable piece of that trade (aside from Crowder's contract; and even still probably more valuable than that, although we see now what it got back) was the lottery pick. It has the potential to replace or even improve on Irving. It also has the potential to be a nothing.


Sure, it would help to get Anthony Davis, but wouldn't the Pelicans want Lakers Pick + Brown + Rozier + a 2019 first rounder for Davis?

Oh my lord. A starting line-up of Irving-Hayward-Tatum-Horford-Davis?

First, you beetter hope that Lakers pick ends up still being worth something. Also, I don't think you can actually get Davis without giving up one of Horford or Hayward or Irving because of the salary cap rules.

CDu
02-09-2018, 10:53 AM
How is a #3 pick better than a former #1 pick perennial All-Star, borderline All-NBA proven commodity?

Simple. If that #3 pick turns out to ALSO be a perennial All-Star, borderline All-NBA player.

flyingdutchdevil
02-09-2018, 10:55 AM
First, you beetter hope that Lakers pick ends up still being worth something. Also, I don't think you can actually get Davis without giving up one of Horford or Hayward or Irving because of the salary cap rules.

Why do you have to ruin my dream? :(

This thread has been my favorite thread over the last week. Not anymore. Thanks, CDu...

CDu
02-09-2018, 10:57 AM
Why do you have to ruin my dream? :(

This thread has been my favorite thread over the last week. Not anymore. Thanks, CDu...

Sorry. Just gotta keep it real.

The Celtics are in a VERY good place right now. You should still be happy. But not THAT happy. ;)

Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15
02-09-2018, 10:58 AM
Simple. If that #3 pick turns out to ALSO be a perennial All-Star, borderline All-NBA player.

Seems like even that scenario it would be a wash at best.

FerryFor50
02-09-2018, 11:00 AM
Seems like even that scenario it would be a wash at best.

Depends. What if that pick is the next LeBron instead of the next Kyrie?

Or, what if it's the next Olowankandi? (ew)

flyingdutchdevil
02-09-2018, 11:03 AM
Depends. What if that pick is the next LeBron instead of the next Kyrie?

Or, what if it's the next Olowankandi? (ew)

Anthony Bennett is the new Olowokandi. Olowokandi spent 8 years in the NBA. Bennett? 3.

Both busts, but one bustier than the other (Dolly Parton jokes welcome).

CDu
02-09-2018, 11:03 AM
Seems like even that scenario it would be a wash at best.

Not necessarily. What if that #3 pick is the next Michael Jordan? Or Kevin Durant? Or Greek Freak? Or (you get the idea).

The Celtics got a sure thing star. The Cavs got a lottery ticket that could turn out to be as good or better, or could turn out worse. It remains to be seen what the value becomes.

Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15
02-09-2018, 11:09 AM
Not necessarily. What if that #3 pick is the next Michael Jordan? Or Kevin Durant? Or Greek Freak? Or (you get the idea).

The Celtics got a sure thing star. The Cavs got a lottery ticket that could turn out to be as good or better, or could turn out worse. It remains to be seen what the value becomes.

Admittedly, I'm now playing the other side a bit as far as "value is value, not what it "could" turn into," but isn't it largely assumed that the goal of that trade (and the trades yesterday) was keeping Lebron James? And wouldn't it follow that the idea was that Crowder and IT would be upgrades that would entice James to resign with the Cavs, whereas he and Kyrie were evidently not cohabitating well?

Well, from THAT POV, the trade was clearly a bust. Crowder and IT are already gone halfway through the subsequent season, and Lebron staying or going certainly won't hinge on a draft pick that he can watch develop.

FerryFor50
02-09-2018, 11:13 AM
Anthony Bennett is the new Olowokandi. Olowokandi spent 8 years in the NBA. Bennett? 3.

Both busts, but one bustier than the other (Dolly Parton jokes welcome).

Greg Oden says hi, but then remembers he was only a bust because of injuries. But that still kills a franchise.

CDu
02-09-2018, 11:20 AM
Admittedly, I'm now playing the other side a bit as far as "value is value, not what it "could" turn into," but isn't it largely assumed that the goal of that trade (and the trades yesterday) was keeping Lebron James? And wouldn't it follow that the idea was that Crowder and IT would be upgrades that would entice James to resign with the Cavs, whereas he and Kyrie were evidently not cohabitating well?

Well, from THAT POV, the trade was clearly a bust. Crowder and IT are already gone halfway through the subsequent season, and Lebron staying or going certainly won't hinge on a draft pick that he can watch develop.

I think the Cavs knew already that James was a potential goner. And while they were certainly hoping that Crowder and Thomas would give them enough to compete this year, the most enticing asset in that deal was always the pick. It gave them trade flexibility if they wanted to use it to bring in another player at the deadline, and it gave them insurance in case LeBron left this summer (which they knew was a real threat). And, if LeBron stayed, it gave them another potential star to go along with LeBron as he enters his declining years.

They were never getting back the best current NBA player in that deal. The pick was always the key piece to potentially offset giving up the best player in the deal. And it was always going to be a matter of whether the combination of assets would offset the loss of the best player in the deal.

Obviously, Thomas' injury and his struggle to fit in with James since his return made the current NBA player part of it was a loss. They have mitigated that to some extent by getting Clarkson, Nance, Hill, and Hood out of it for essentially the additional cost of a less-valuable 1st round pick. But obviously those players didn't do what the Cavs had hoped, which was to minimize the difference in current value such that the lottery pick would make it a clear-cut win.

As such, the lottery pick takes on even more importance. Rather than being the coup de grace, it now needs to be the piece that carries the day for them. And it still could, although the probability is certainly small.

JasonEvans
02-09-2018, 11:52 AM
And, on cue, IT's agent texting the media stating that IT "WILL NOT COME OFF THE BENCH" in LA and telling local media that things didn't work because IT is "a ball dominant player" and in Cleveland it was LeBron's ball.

I thought it was the job of the agent to make the client more money. Am I wrong about that? Cause this feels like something that will further the narrative that IT is tough to get along with and a potential headache for management. He's a free agent this summer and all this drama is driving his price down and down and down.

CDu
02-09-2018, 12:00 PM
I thought it was the job of the agent to make the client more money. Am I wrong about that? Cause this feels like something that will further the narrative that IT is tough to get along with and a potential headache for management. He's a free agent this summer and all this drama is driving his price down and down and down.

He's had about as bad a 6-8 month stretch as a pending free agent could have without committing a felony. Serious, perhaps career-altering injury? Check. Create chemistry problems with your new team within a few games of your return to the court? Check. Create chemistry problems with your new new team before even stepping on the court with them? Check. Really a downhill spiral. Very sad for a guy who was as of last Spring a very popular underdog story.

Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15
02-09-2018, 12:02 PM
He's had about as bad a 6-8 month stretch as a pending free agent could have without committing a felony. Serious, perhaps career-altering injury? Check. Create chemistry problems with your new team within a few games of your return to the court? Check. Create chemistry problems with your new new team before even stepping on the court with them? Check. Really a downhill spiral. Very sad for a guy who was as of last Spring a very popular underdog story.

Yeah, amazing that last April/May he was the league's best story.

tbyers11
02-09-2018, 01:33 PM
Anthony Bennett is the new Olowokandi. Olowokandi spent 8 years in the NBA. Bennett? 3.

Both busts, but one bustier than the other (Dolly Parton jokes welcome).

I thought Markelle Fultz was the new Anthony Bennett :D

BD80
02-09-2018, 02:00 PM
I thought Markelle Fultz was the new Anthony Bennett :D

He's got a shot ...



oh, wait, no he doesn't.

IrishDevil
02-09-2018, 02:17 PM
He's got a shot ...



oh, wait, no he doesn't.

Brilliant, BD80 - must spread sporks, etc.

ice-9
02-09-2018, 05:32 PM
I donít think anyone in here is a Cleveland fan. So to add my opinion to it all as a die hard Cleveland fan...do everything to win right now. Especially if you think Lebron will leave after the season. Iíve lost all hope that the Cavs organization could build a contender without Lebron. So win now. Trade it all away and make a push while you can. If you have to give up Brooklynís pick, so what? Even with that pick, it will take years of tanking to build up a playoff team.

Did your guarantee the Cavs will make the finals include a massive 6-for-4 player trade? Well you got it, let's see if the guarantee holds.

ice-9
02-09-2018, 05:48 PM
I don't think I'm a critic of Irving. I like him a lot. He's a great player. I'm just not as unabashed a fan of his as some are here.

I think it's clear that on this DBR forum, among those who post regularly or frequently, you are his biggest critic and has been for many years.

Does this make the rest of us unabashed fans?

BigZ
02-09-2018, 06:30 PM
In Cleveland 'a defense the Bennett draft was considered the worse draft class ever.

ice-9
02-09-2018, 06:30 PM
First, I apologize for making 3 posts in a row -- just catching up on this thread.

Who won the Kyrie trade?

Boston clearly won that trade. You can tell they won that trade because the Cavs got rid of IT and Crowder. Ergo, they weren't happy with what they got.

At the time of the trade, it looked like Cavs had the upper hand. The expected value of what they received was arguably more than the expected value of what they paid. Many people on the Internet argued that -- smart people even on DBR were guaranteeing the Cavs will return to the finals with IT and Crowder.

But reality did not meet expectations and as of now it's obvious the Celtics got the better realized value.

Why are we debating it?

Because debates are fun and because there's clearly no consensus.

What if the Nets pick turned out to be the next Jordan or the next LeBron?

Anything is possible, but if you operate with that mindset it's hard to be rational. Is it better for me to buy lottery tickets or invest in a diversified portfolio? I might win hundreds of millions with the lottery!

The best thing you can do is to think about expected value. What is the expected value of a #1-8 pick? I'll tell you what it's not --it's not equal to a multiple All-Star, borderline All-NBA, proven clutch player on a championship winning team, actual #1 pick. And one who can play right now, entering his prime, and not have to develop many years later.

But the Cavs were forced to make that trade, because Irving?

Folks pushing this agenda is making it seem like Irving was to blame for the Cavs' woes. Really? So if your supervisor tried to fire you and failed, it's not OK for you to want a transfer? Come on. Nobody owes anything to anyone. The Cavs should've made their #2 player happy, they didn't, Irving wanted out, and so it goes. There's a cause and effect to all things.

It's sad how negativity is usually attributed to the player and not to management/ownership.

Irving forced the trade, because he wanted to be the man! He's selfish!

This assertion was speculative even when news came out Irving wanted a trade and all we had to go with were rumors; now, it seems completely baseless. Is Irving playing like a selfish player on the Celtics? Are Celtics players or insiders complaining behind the scenes that Irving is a cancer?

This contrasts starkly with all the drama that DID go on in the Cavs and leaked to the media. IT. Love. LeBron. Wade even. It makes you wonder whether the problem really was Irving or the Cavs. I suspect no one is going to change their minds, because while some claim to be rational they are really just as biased as the rest of us.

I'm just glad Irving is in a better place, and I worry for Hood. I like what Koby Altman (the new GM) is saying though, about making these moves to improve the culture and make things more fun. Almost...as if there WERE something wrong with that culture.

Did the Cavs improve their situation with the new 6-for-4 trade?

Yeah, they did. They got a chance to better this year and they still kept the Nets pick.

CDu
02-09-2018, 08:08 PM
I think it's clear that on this DBR forum, among those who post regularly or frequently, you are his biggest critic and has been for many years.

Does this make the rest of us unabashed fans?

I have crticicized Irving in the past, yes. I am not alone on this board in that. Nor do I consider myself a critic of him. I think he has developed into a fantastic player.

And no, the rest of the board isn’t necessarily unabashed fans. Some are. Some are in the camp that recognizes both his strengths and flaws.

Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15
02-11-2018, 10:05 AM
First, I apologize for making 3 posts in a row -- just catching up on this thread.

Who won the Kyrie trade?

Boston clearly won that trade. You can tell they won that trade because the Cavs got rid of IT and Crowder. Ergo, they weren't happy with what they got.

At the time of the trade, it looked like Cavs had the upper hand. The expected value of what they received was arguably more than the expected value of what they paid. Many people on the Internet argued that -- smart people even on DBR were guaranteeing the Cavs will return to the finals with IT and Crowder.

But reality did not meet expectations and as of now it's obvious the Celtics got the better realized value.

Why are we debating it?

Because debates are fun and because there's clearly no consensus.

What if the Nets pick turned out to be the next Jordan or the next LeBron?

Anything is possible, but if you operate with that mindset it's hard to be rational. Is it better for me to buy lottery tickets or invest in a diversified portfolio? I might win hundreds of millions with the lottery!

The best thing you can do is to think about expected value. What is the expected value of a #1-8 pick? I'll tell you what it's not --it's not equal to a multiple All-Star, borderline All-NBA, proven clutch player on a championship winning team, actual #1 pick. And one who can play right now, entering his prime, and not have to develop many years later.

But the Cavs were forced to make that trade, because Irving?

Folks pushing this agenda is making it seem like Irving was to blame for the Cavs' woes. Really? So if your supervisor tried to fire you and failed, it's not OK for you to want a transfer? Come on. Nobody owes anything to anyone. The Cavs should've made their #2 player happy, they didn't, Irving wanted out, and so it goes. There's a cause and effect to all things.

It's sad how negativity is usually attributed to the player and not to management/ownership.

Irving forced the trade, because he wanted to be the man! He's selfish!

This assertion was speculative even when news came out Irving wanted a trade and all we had to go with were rumors; now, it seems completely baseless. Is Irving playing like a selfish player on the Celtics? Are Celtics players or insiders complaining behind the scenes that Irving is a cancer?

This contrasts starkly with all the drama that DID go on in the Cavs and leaked to the media. IT. Love. LeBron. Wade even. It makes you wonder whether the problem really was Irving or the Cavs. I suspect no one is going to change their minds, because while some claim to be rational they are really just as biased as the rest of us.

I'm just glad Irving is in a better place, and I worry for Hood. I like what Koby Altman (the new GM) is saying though, about making these moves to improve the culture and make things more fun. Almost...as if there WERE something wrong with that culture.

Did the Cavs improve their situation with the new 6-for-4 trade?

Yeah, they did. They got a chance to better this year and they still kept the Nets pick.

ESPN agrees with you and me saying the C's won this trade and it isn't even close. (http://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/22393420/why-did-get-kyrie-irving-trade-wrong-kevin-pelton-nba)

LasVegas
02-11-2018, 11:24 AM
ESPN agrees with you and me saying the C's won this trade and it isn't even close. (http://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/22393420/why-did-get-kyrie-irving-trade-wrong-kevin-pelton-nba)

How can you lose a trade when your hand was basically forced by a player requesting a trade so late in the offseason after all the chips has fallen? What other trade would you have made if you were the Cavs? I see a bunch of you saying they lost the trade but no one has put forth better options. So what ya got? Can you ďloseĒ a trade if itís the best option at the time for your organization?

Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15
02-11-2018, 11:29 AM
How can you lose a trade when your hand was basically forced by a player requesting a trade so late in the offseason after all the chips has fallen? What other trade would you have made if you were the Cavs? I see a bunch of you saying they lost the trade but no one has put forth better options. So what ya got? Can you ďloseĒ a trade if itís the best option at the time for your organization?

As I said up thread, if I am in a bad situation and sell my truck for $100, the person who buys it wins the trade. The fact that I was in a bind doesn't change the valuation of the trade.

LasVegas
02-11-2018, 11:48 AM
As I said up thread, if I am in a bad situation and sell my truck for $100, the person who buys it wins the trade. The fact that I was in a bind doesn't change the valuation of the trade.

So the Cavs made the best decision at the time. Win/lose/whatever. Itís not like they made a bad decision here. They had one option. Who cares if they win or lose the trade. There was nothing else they could really do so itís unfair to grade a trade like that. IMO

Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15
02-11-2018, 11:53 AM
So the Cavs made the best decision at the time. Win/lose/whatever. Itís not like they made a bad decision here. They had one option. Who cares if they win or lose the trade. There was nothing else they could really do so itís unfair to grade a trade like that. IMO

It is unfair to evaluate a trade based on the value of players traded? How would you propose to evaluate a trade?

Look, the players they got for Kyrie are gone in a few months. Almost any trade would have been better. The Celtics "won" the trade. Not sure why you are insistent that there are other factors at play here that are relevant to this.

You can say "well, the Caves had to do something," and I guess that's a different discussion. But there's really not much leg to stand on arguing against the Celtics getting the better of this exchange.

dudog84
02-11-2018, 12:02 PM
It is unfair to evaluate a trade based on the value of players traded? How would you propose to evaluate a trade?

Look, the players they got for Kyrie are gone in a few months. Almost any trade would have been better. The Celtics "won" the trade. Not sure why you are insistent that there are other factors at play here that are relevant to this.

You can say "well, the Caves had to do something," and I guess that's a different discussion. But there's really not much leg to stand on arguing against the Celtics getting the better of this exchange.

Also, don't forget the Cavs gave that great player to their biggest rival in the conference. Unless Kyrie had the power to nix any trade, maybe they should have traded him to the Sacramento Kings.

nmduke2001
02-11-2018, 12:03 PM
I just wanted to give some insight into number one overall draft pick Markelle Fultzí injury. Itís been rumored that he has some sort of subscapularis shoulder injury. I have been diagnosed with subscapularis tendinopathy with impingement. Itís an incredibly painful condition. Any load bearing or forceful arm movement above your head hurts like hell.

The other day, I decided to try shooting a basketball. For reference, I shoot well enough that I could play in a competitive pick up game without embarrassing myself. I can tell you that the shooting motion is pretty painful. My form (especially from distance) did change but not as much as Markelleís. My injury is mild and likely wonít require surgery but I can see why he is struggling so much. I would bet they shut him down and he has surgery. Hopefully he comes back healthy.

LasVegas
02-11-2018, 12:03 PM
It is unfair to evaluate a trade based on the value of players traded? How would you propose to evaluate a trade?

Look, the players they got for Kyrie are gone in a few months. Almost any trade would have been better. The Celtics "won" the trade. Not sure why you are insistent that there are other factors at play here that are relevant to this.

You can say "well, the Caves had to do something," and I guess that's a different discussion. But there's really not much leg to stand on arguing against the Celtics getting the better of this exchange.

I donít think I ever said the Celtics didnít get the better of the exchange. Maybe I did? All im saying is, the Cavs had no choice and people are trying to tear into them like they had better options. Thatís it. They did the best they could with the situation kyrie put them in.

CDu
02-11-2018, 12:31 PM
It is unfair to evaluate a trade based on the value of players traded? How would you propose to evaluate a trade?

Look, the players they got for Kyrie are gone in a few months. Almost any trade would have been better. The Celtics "won" the trade. Not sure why you are insistent that there are other factors at play here that are relevant to this.

You can say "well, the Caves had to do something," and I guess that's a different discussion. But there's really not much leg to stand on arguing against the Celtics getting the better of this exchange.

The players in that trade aren’t the only part of the trade. I don’t know why people keep ignoring that.

It is absolutely true that the Celtics won the “current NBA player” part of the deal. That was almost certain to be true from day one, though the degree to which they won is a bit surprising. The pick is/was a critical piece. That the NBA players part of the deal has been a blowout makes the pick that much more critical for the Cavs.

I am not sure I understand why folks are so insistent on determining who “won” the trade before the value of that asset is realized.

And to be clear, if that pick doesn’t pan out a superstar, it won’t be a great return for Cleveland.

dudog84
02-11-2018, 01:56 PM
The players in that trade arenít the only part of the trade. I donít know why people keep ignoring that.

It is absolutely true that the Celtics won the ďcurrent NBA playerĒ part of the deal. That was almost certain to be true from day one, though the degree to which they won is a bit surprising. The pick is/was a critical piece. That the NBA players part of the deal has been a blowout makes the pick that much more critical for the Cavs.

I am not sure I understand why folks are so insistent on determining who ďwonĒ the trade before the value of that asset is realized.

And to be clear, if that pick doesnít pan out a superstar, it wonít be a great return for Cleveland.

Even if the pick turns out to be a "superstar", the Cavs needed to win now with LeBron. That meant keeping Kyrie happy (both the Cavs' and LeBron's job). That was their best chance. The Cavs and LeBron failed.

CDu
02-11-2018, 02:07 PM
Even if the pick turns out to be a "superstar", the Cavs needed to win now with LeBron. That meant keeping Kyrie happy (both the Cavs' and LeBron's job). That was their best chance. The Cavs and LeBron failed.

I disagree. They were not beating Golden State with that roster, and Irving was their only trade asset. There was already speculation that, because Cleveland was capped out and not going to win the title, LeBron would leave either way.

So, they made a move to try to compete this year and reload through the draft. And it looked good: Thomas would in theory offset some of the Irving loss and Crowder would be a nice role player on a great deal. And they got a sure-fire lottery pick in the event LeBron left. The ďcompete this yearĒ part of that trade failed, although the assets from it did result in a pretty good end result that may well get them to the same end. But the draft pick was part of the mix.

dudog84
02-11-2018, 02:12 PM
I disagree. They were not beating Golden State with that roster, and Irving was their only trade asset. There was already speculation that, because Cleveland was capped out and not going to win the title, LeBron would leave either way.

So, they made a move to try to compete this year and reload through the draft. And it looked good: Thomas would in theory offset some of the Irving loss and Crowder would be a nice role player on a great deal. And they got a sure-fire lottery pick in the event LeBron left. The ďcompete this yearĒ part of that trade failed, although the assets from it did result in a pretty good end result that may well get them to the same end. But the draft pick was part of the mix.

Like I said, they failed.

CDu
02-11-2018, 02:21 PM
Like I said, they failed.

They failed at that part of the trade (which I had already said). That wasn’t the only part of the trade (which I also said). Ignoring that (a) there was slready a good chance LeBron was leaving, (b) that was especially true if they rolled out the same group again, and (c) Irving was their only trade chip is wrong. And as such, ignoring the potential value of the pick is wrong.

JNort
02-11-2018, 05:25 PM
The new Cavs are looking great offense and much better on defense so far tonight against the Celtics.

Troublemaker
02-11-2018, 05:41 PM
The new Cavs are looking great offense and much better on defense so far tonight against the Celtics.

Jason Evans might not be undefeated in pie bets anymore by June. (Unless there was a trade escape clause that he can activate).

Good job, Jnort. I believe you were on the other side of that bet?

On the whole, Cleveland made some trades at the deadline that improved them for sure.

CDu
02-11-2018, 06:59 PM
As an aside, wasnít there also a DBR bet that Boston wouldnít be over .500? If so (donít remember who or specifics but I remember it discussed), yeah, that was a bad bet.

flyingdutchdevil
02-11-2018, 07:06 PM
Jason Evans might not be undefeated in pie bets anymore by June. (Unless there was a trade escape clause that he can activate).

Good job, Jnort. I believe you were on the other side of that bet?

On the whole, Cleveland made some trades at the deadline that improved them for sure.

That bet was against me. Not a pie bet. But pretty sure Iím gonna win.

Cavs looked great tonight. Surround Lebron with young, athletic scorers instead of the demotivated corpses of Wade,Thomas, Crowder, and Shumpert and you get an exciting team capable of scoring from anywhere and defensively okay (instead of turble).

moonpie23
02-11-2018, 08:58 PM
lebron is at his best when he's surrounded by HIS team......no other agendas.....

pfrduke
02-12-2018, 01:03 AM
As an aside, wasnít there also a DBR bet that Boston wouldnít be over .500? If so (donít remember who or specifics but I remember it discussed), yeah, that was a bad bet.

Yes. Me and SupaDave. I have over 41.5 wins. We made the best when Boston was 0-2. I feel very good about it. I was really hoping I would seal the over by the all-star break, but I'll have to wait until just slightly later in February to claim the win.

Troublemaker
02-12-2018, 05:56 AM
Yes. Me and SupaDave. I have over 41.5 wins. We made the best when Boston was 0-2. I feel very good about it. I was really hoping I would seal the over by the all-star break, but I'll have to wait until just slightly later in February to claim the win.

Yeah, I just remembered that Boston has crazily overachieved this season. I remember at the time of the bet thinking over .500 would be the way I would bet, too, but I thought they'd be around 45 wins without Gordon Hayward. Obviously they will sail way over that number.

dudog84
02-12-2018, 08:01 AM
I donít think I ever said the Celtics didnít get the better of the exchange. Maybe I did? All im saying is, the Cavs had no choice and people are trying to tear into them like they had better options. Thatís it. They did the best they could with the situation kyrie put them in.

The Cavs put themselves in the situation.

ice-9
02-12-2018, 09:20 AM
The Cavs put themselves in the situation.

I don't know why Cavs fans keep forgetting that Cavs management/ownership tried to trade Kyrie away before Kyrie wanted out.

LasVegas
02-12-2018, 09:55 AM
The Cavs put themselves in the situation.

The Cavs were looking to move kyrie at the optimum time in the off-season. Not at the very end, which is when kyrie demanded the trade. Regardless, it looks like the Cavs will be just fine. They steam rolled he Celtics last night.

dudog84
02-12-2018, 10:25 AM
The Cavs were looking to move kyrie at the optimum time in the off-season. Not at the very end, which is when kyrie demanded the trade. Regardless, it looks like the Cavs will be just fine. They steam rolled he Celtics last night.

Do you know when Kyrie found out that they had shopped him? Even if he knew immediately, he would have been smart (he did go to Duke after all) not to make a knee-jerk emotional decision. Or maybe he timed it to screw them over.

Yeah, one game determines a season. Better sell your Duke stock right now because they'll be losing to St. Johns in the NCAA Tournament.

JNort
02-12-2018, 10:31 AM
The Cavs put themselves in the situation.

I disagree. Players get shopped around all the time. Usually just to see what's out there. Players usually take it in stride as it's part of the business and for some reason if they find it insulting they just don't resign. Kyrie decided he found it offensive for some reason and tried to hold the Cavs hostage.

Troublemaker
02-12-2018, 10:36 AM
The Cavs put themselves in the situation.


I don't know why Cavs fans keep forgetting that Cavs management/ownership tried to trade Kyrie away before Kyrie wanted out.


The Cavs were looking to move kyrie at the optimum time in the off-season. Not at the very end, which is when kyrie demanded the trade. Regardless, it looks like the Cavs will be just fine. They steam rolled he Celtics last night.

Yeah, but if word ever trickled out to him that they wanted to trade him, that would only add to his frustration. Which apparently is what happened.

A couple of things:

(1) Having read a bunch of articles about the trade at the time, a key figure that was missing was David Griffin. Kyrie had at previous times during his Cavs stint been unhappy, and Griffin had always brought him back into the fold. Dan Gilbert deciding not to pay Griffin and losing him as Cavs GM was a factor, as Griffin was an important part of the Cavs-Kyrie relationship.

(2) Kyrie didn't put the Cavs in THAT big a bind. Kyrie had two years remaining on his contract (and a player option for a third year) at a very reasonable salary (see HoopsHype info below), and he was only 25 years old, so you could project improvement. That's the kind of player and contract situation that teams want to trade for. The Cavs were always going to get much more perceived value in a trade for Kyrie than the Pacers got for Paul George, who only had 1 year remaining when he requested a trade, despite George having better supposed offseason "timing." 2 years > 1 year. (Note: "perceived value" is an important qualifier, as both of those trades now look very different than how they were perceived at the time.)

Kyrie HoopsHype link (http://hoopshype.com/player/kyrie-irving/salary/)

https://i.imgur.com/Xycf8He.png

elvis14
02-12-2018, 10:43 AM
I wish the thread title for this discussion could have a little check box that would get checked once the discussion on Kyrie's trade ends. I keep clicking on the 'New' button hoping there's going to be some interesting discussion of yesterday's games.

Interesting that the Pistons with Blake finally lose for the first time...to the Clippers (then they lost to the Hawks, say wha?)
Cool that Doc Rivers spoke on behalf of Paul Pierce yesterday
Wow, did the Cavs spank the Celtics
Bummer that the Mavs cut Josh
Utah won again, even with Hood
Paul George is finally hitting his stride and he's playing scary good ball

Pick anything, anything other than Kyrie's trade and discuss, please. That horse is dead and doesn't need to be beaten any more.

LasVegas
02-12-2018, 11:40 AM
I wish the thread title for this discussion could have a little check box that would get checked once the discussion on Kyrie's trade ends. I keep clicking on the 'New' button hoping there's going to be some interesting discussion of yesterday's games.

Interesting that the Pistons with Blake finally lose for the first time...to the Clippers (then they lost to the Hawks, say wha?)
Cool that Doc Rivers spoke on behalf of Paul Pierce yesterday
Wow, did the Cavs spank the Celtics
Bummer that the Mavs cut Josh
Utah won again, even with Hood
Paul George is finally hitting his stride and he's playing scary good ball

Pick anything, anything other than Kyrie's trade and discuss, please. That horse is dead and doesn't need to be beaten any more.

I agree regarding the kyrie discussion and I wonít be adding to it anymore. The Cavs did look great last night and hopefully the trend continues for them. Itís promising. Maybe not to take out gsw or Houston, but at least win the east again.

elvis14
02-12-2018, 01:55 PM
I agree regarding the kyrie discussion and I wonít be adding to it anymore. The Cavs did look great last night and hopefully the trend continues for them. Itís promising. Maybe not to take out gsw or Houston, but at least win the east again.

The moves the Cavs made last week are going to make for a really fun next month or so as we get to see how they gel. Something tells me LeBron will find a way to make it work since it seems like a good/better collection of role players.

As for the GSW, I'm curious to see if they take their game to the next level once the playoffs approach because they seem to be playing a little below their lofty standards.

cato
02-12-2018, 02:50 PM
I disagree. Players get shopped around all the time. Usually just to see what's out there. Players usually take it in stride as it's part of the business and for some reason if they find it insulting they just don't resign. Kyrie decided he found it offensive for some reason and tried to hold the Cavs hostage.

Replacement level players get shopped all of the time. Players like LeBron, Steph, KD do not.

When the Cavs shopped him, they clearly indicated how much value they placed in him.

JNort
02-12-2018, 04:05 PM
Replacement level players get shopped all of the time. Players like LeBron, Steph, KD do not.

When the Cavs shopped him, they clearly indicated how much value they placed in him.
No, corner stone players do get shopped around every year but not much usually come from it. Kyrie got shopped only because he has been unhappy in the past and they doubted he would resign anyway. They just fielded calls for him, he took offense.

This year alone we've heard rumors of trading: Blake, Deandre, Melo, PG13, AD, Cousins, Kemba, Wall, Kristaps, Fultz (if you wanna count rookies) and those are just off the top of my head. They aren't always serious trade offers but they do still field the calls.