MBB: Duke 78, Southern 61 Post-Game Thread

[JBDuke]

Put your post-game thoughts here.

[duke4ever19]

Well, that was frustrating to watch. I can't imagine how frustrating it must have been to play or to coach.

[Duke95]

Bagley has had a double-double in every game except the MSU game where he was hurt.
Carter and Trent also with double-doubles today.

[SkyBrickey]

Southern was scrappy and fought for it.

Carter was solid.

Not much else to say...

[proelitedota]

That looked to be our floor. I hope that was our floor!

[Saratoga2]

Wendell Carter was the man. Points, rebounds and blocks. Very strong game while Bagley was also a strength. Four for 20 on 3 point shots and less than great at the FT line were areas to work on. Can't remember a time when a Duke team shot worse from the 3 point line.

[MChambers]

That looked to be our floor. I hope that was our floor!
The sub flooring is the floor, I hope!

[Ballboy1998]

Wendell Carter was the man. Points, rebounds and blocks. Very strong game while Bagley was also a strength. Four for 20 on 3 point shots and less than great at the FT line were areas to work on. Can't remember a time when a Duke team shot worse from the 3 point line.

With this year's team, any time Grayson goes 0-fer from 3, the team percentage is likely to be pretty ugly, but hopefully that will not happen very often. Looked like a bit of a hangover from the MSU game and a scrappy effort from Southern. I heart Wendell Carter Jr.

[kAzE]

Definitely a bit of an off game for us. We did not look sharp. The ball movement on offense was far inferior than what we have seen from this team thus far. Lots of sloppy passing, not hitting the open man, and trying to force plays that weren’t there. Not sure what happened to Grayson tonight, he just wasn’t aggressive at all. Duval made a number of really nice passes but wasn’t able to pile up the assists because guys were missing shots.

Still some positives. Carter and Bagley played their usual game and were dominant, and Alex was a nice spark of the bench once again. He’s got an impressive ability to process information quickly and make the right decision as a play develops. Alex has been better than advertised so far this year.

Looked like the classic hangover after a big game.

[Troublemaker]

Great scheduling. We let down in a letdown spot but thankfully had scheduled a 300+ level team; if we had played a top-100 team, it might've gotten dicey. I'm not really disappointed; it's more important how we react to this game. If Duke puts forth a much better effort on Monday against Furman, no big deal.

Very happy to have rim protectors this season, and this was the perfect game for Grayson to suffer regression in his 3-pt shooting, haha.

Not much else to say, from my vantage point.

[ipatent]

Southern's strategy was to send Duke's bigs to the line, note all the fouls their bench players piled up. That broke the rhythm of the game, but give them credit for getting back on defense for the most part and hitting a lot of shots with hands in their faces.

Nice to see Trevon hit a three and for Bagley to shoot over 50% at the line after a tough start.

Carter continues his stellar play.

Give Grayson credit for not forcing shots. He'll be the focus of a lot of defenses this year.

[uh_no]

The sub flooring is the floor, I hope!

the floor is the ground

[Duke95]

With games like these, it's important to keep in mind how young our players are.

[MrPoon]

Anyone catch K’s presser after?
I’d be curious to know what he does with this one? Burn the tape and move on? Use it to push a young team?
Peel the paint and tell them someone spent hundreds on stubhub to see his team take the night off?
So little attention to detail or hussell which we are used to from a K team and especially one at home.

The line was +41, congrats on the under!

[subzero02]

Carter was under rated in my opinion. If he had gone to Harvard, he would've been a triple double threat on any given night of conference play...

[SkyBrickey]

Carter was under rated in my opinion. If he had gone to Harvard, he would've been a triple double threat on any given night of conference play...

He was the 4th ranked recruit in the class. 3 before Bags reclassified. Don't think he was underrated so much as just forgotten a bit after Bags signed. He's playing great.

[SkyBrickey]

And it's hard to argue w Porter Jr and Ayton ahead of him.

[subzero02]

He was the 4th ranked recruit in the class. 3 before Bags reclassified. Don't think he was underrated so much as just forgotten a bit after Bags signed. He's playing great.

He was ranked 7th in the final RSCI rankings and no higher than 5th by any site. 247 ranked him 10th. If there are 9 freshman better than him, I haven't seen them.

https://sites.google.com/site/rscihoops/2017-final

[Chard]

Great learning game for the team.

A couple of starters struggled to score but two freshman and nearly a third (ESPN stats) had double-double games. the 3pt shooting was way off (20%) but that was well compensated by points in the paint. Free throw shooting started off abysmally but then got better. Bolden got in and did well.

Hats off to Southern.

[Ima Facultiwyfe]

Anyone catch K’s presser after?
I’d be curious to know what he does with this one? Burn the tape and move on? Use it to push a young team?
Peel the paint and tell them someone spent hundreds on stubhub to see his team take the night off?
So little attention to detail or hussell which we are used to from a K team and especially one at home.

The line was +41, congrats on the under!

He acknowledged that they were sluggish. No time allowed for practice after Michigan State due to the college rules. Nine games in twenty days. A lot for a young team to adjust to. Gave props to O'Cpnnell and Carter in particular.

They're growing up. Bless their hearts.
Love, Ima

[ncexnyc]

A really sluggish game, but I bet nobody turned it off:)

[CDu]

Bagley has had a double-double in every game except the MSU game where he was hurt.
Carter and Trent also with double-doubles today.

Trent actually fell just short of a double-double with just 8 points.

[DaleDuke7]

Great learning game for the team.

A couple of starters struggled to score but two freshman and nearly a third (ESPN stats) had double-double games. the 3pt shooting was way off (20%) but that was well compensated by points in the paint. Free throw shooting started off abysmally but then got better. Bolden got in and did well.

Hats off to Southern.

I don’t think Bolden did all that well. I thought he was aggressive on offense, but ultimately ineffective. There were several plays on defense where he either looked completely lost or very slow to react. I’m rooting for him big time but I can’t deny what my eyes see. I’m hoping it will “click” for him soon. But as of now, I see little to no difference from last year. Hopefully it’s just a mental issue.

[CDu]

Someone commented about how important fast-breaks and offensive rebounds will be. Well, this is what the offense looks like when we don’t force live-ball turnovers and don’t hit 3s.

Sloppy, choppy game, with a lot of youth on display. The half-court offense still has a ways to go yet.

Kudos to Southern for playing hard and smart (just 8 turnovers) and hitting some big shots.

Love the performance by Carter. Liked the performances by Duval and Bagley. Felt Bolden had some nice moments and showed good effort. DeLaurier had some wow plays. Allen had an off-night.

Ultimately, we won comfortably and nobody got hurt. That is all that I was looking for from this one.

[moonpie23]

Props to Southern. They brought the heat and knocked us back. Those guys hand a fire in them.


Next game.

[camion]

This was absolutely the best time to have a game like this. I’m pretty happy.

Southern played well. They shot some dagger threes and they forced the bigs to score from the free throw line as others will. We were a bit off after the MSU game, but produced a workmanlike win. Sometimes you have to just go out and win the game on uninspired nights.

Done.

[Chard]

I don’t think Bolden did all that well. I thought he was aggressive on offense, but ultimately ineffective. There were several plays on defense where he either looked completely lost or very slow to react. I’m rooting for him big time but I can’t deny what my eyes see. I’m hoping it will “click” for him soon. But as of now, I see little to no difference from last year. Hopefully it’s just a mental issue.

I disagree. He did mostly what I assume the coaches wanted him to do. On defense he hedged a lot up top which resulted in a couple of wide open lanes. The third time that happened the Duke player on the baseline stepped up and stopped the drive unlike the first two times. He did what he was asked.

He also was aggressive down low on offense. 2 rebounds, 4 points and no fouls in 11 minutes. He effected the game when he came in. I'll take that as a plus. Was that comparable, better or worse that DeLaurier's stat line?

[rsvman]

Coach K working on the man D. Letting the guys tough it out.

Too many turnovers, too many missed free throws. Lots of work to do on the man-to-man.

Carter was pretty dominant. Bagley was great, too, but he needs to learn how to finish with the right hand when the situation dictates it.

[OZ]

Someone commented about how important fast-breaks and offensive rebounds will be. Well, this is what the offense looks like when we don’t force live-ball turnovers and don’t hit 3s.

Sloppy, choppy game, with a lot of youth on display. The half-court offense still has a ways to go yet.

Kudos to Southern for playing hard and smart (just 8 turnovers) and hitting some big shots.

Love the performance by Carter. Liked the performances by Duval and Bagley. Felt Bolden had some nice moments and showed good effort. DeLaurier had some wow plays. Allen had an off-night.

Ultimately, we won comfortably and nobody got hurt. That is all that I was looking for from this one.

... and when coming off an important, emotional, stressful, physical national televised travel game just two days prior. Even the best are not up 100% of the time.
... and when Allen has a bad shooting night... particularly from the three. So far, through four games, my memory is, Allen is hitting almost 50% of our threes (17 of 35). Tonight, he was 0-6.
Which means, against tougher opponents, there are going to be nights when someone else is going to have to hit a three other than Allen.

[hsheffield]

Coach K working on the man D. Letting the guys tough it out.

Too many turnovers, too many missed free throws. Lots of work to do on the man-to-man.

Carter was pretty dominant. Bagley was great, too, but he needs to learn how to finish with the right hand when the situation dictates it.


Stats I saw said we had 15 turnovers. Is that true?

[devildeac]

Stats I saw said we had 15 turnovers. Is that true?

No problems as Sean May ate nine of them. :o

[subzero02]

I don’t think Bolden did all that well. I thought he was aggressive on offense, but ultimately ineffective. There were several plays on defense where he either looked completely lost or very slow to react. I’m rooting for him big time but I can’t deny what my eyes see. I’m hoping it will “click” for him soon. But as of now, I see little to no difference from last year. Hopefully it’s just a mental issue.

I essentially said the same thing during the in-game thread. There were several times tonight where he either reacted too slowly or was a few steps out of position to make a play on defense but failed to move to the more effective position. His ability to anticipate is somewhere between non-existent and minimal. He has plenty of chances to improve during the season since he'll be practicing against 2 of the best big men in the country. I'm not optimistic about a breakout game this year but I remain optimistic that one is somewhere on the horizon.

[uh_no]

Someone commented about how important fast-breaks and offensive rebounds will be. Well, this is what the offense looks like when we don’t force live-ball turnovers and don’t hit 3s.

Sloppy, choppy game, with a lot of youth on display. The half-court offense still has a ways to go yet.

Kudos to Southern for playing hard and smart (just 8 turnovers) and hitting some big shots.

Love the performance by Carter. Liked the performances by Duval and Bagley. Felt Bolden had some nice moments and showed good effort. DeLaurier had some wow plays. Allen had an off-night.

Ultimately, we won comfortably and nobody got hurt. That is all that I was looking for from this one.

I think to some degree, grayson was trying to let other people get involved. He could have attacked far more than he did if he needed to....but better help the other guys improve by forcing them to get it done.

That may be a big misread, but when grayson doesn't score for the first 18 minutes or whatever it is, it isn't because he's simply having a tough night. He doesn't need to light it up against southern to prove anything.

The defense is similar. Clearly we can play a decently effective zone...and if we played the same zone we did the other night, maybe we run out of the building....but we're not getting better by running southern out of the building...we get better by forcing ourselves to do the things we're less good at.....because if we NEED to do them, we can.


Anyway, I'm less negative than a lot of people on the game tonight....and while of course I would like to see better play, I don't think the goal was to win by as much as possible.

[Kedsy]

Anyway, I'm less negative than a lot of people on the game tonight...and while of course I would like to see better play, I don't think the goal was to win by as much as possible.

I'm not negative so much as I think Southern may have provided the blueprint for the best way to try to beat Duke this season: limit the number of possessions, protect the ball, send us to the line, hit threes, and hope we miss threes. I'm not sure how many opponents are going to be able to accomplish all those things, but Southern sure did, so it can be done.

Possessions:
vs. Elon: 76.2
vs. UVU: 78.1
vs. MSU: 73.9
vs. Southern: 69.6

opponent TO rate:
vs. Elon: 20.2%
vs. UVU: 24.5%
vs. MSU: 22.5%
vs. Southern: 11.6%

Duke FT Rate:
vs. Elon: 14.9%
vs. UVU: 23.3%
vs. MSU: 38.2%
vs. Southern: 66.1% (!)

The free throw rate numbers show a mounting trend. As poorly as we shoot free throws, it's a trend that might continue.

Fortunately, Southern couldn't keep us off the offensive boards, and I'm not sure too many (if any) teams are going to be able to do that, either:

Duke OR%
vs. Elon: 39.5%
vs. UVU: 39.5%
vs. MSU: 52.1% (!)
vs. Southern: 47.5%

But we didn't do much else particularly well, and we still won by 17. Personally, I'm ready to move past it.

[dukefan_828]

At one point mid to late second half Gman was talking about calipari i was watching the game w a group of friends so i couldn't hear everything but in the same few moments after he said he didn't see the final four being something this team could achieve w such young talent bc they aren't as talented as this one. I'm pretty sure he was saying kentucky wasn't talented enough but would just like a conformation.. other than a cold shooting night witch i will just consider tired legs hangover and maybe a bit of looking past southern what i liked was

Wendell being a man child which i think we can count on with consistency, our best two way big man since the land lord? 6 blocks, 3 in one possession how demoralizing and embarrassing for the opposition! Also has great foot work and showed he's capable of stepping out and hitting from mid to 3 which is highly favored in the NBA but not so good if we where looking for him to stick around a while.. i'll take it!

Bags- Super athletic freak of nature, awesome!!

Was watching game w friends will be locking myself in man cave tomorrow morning to further dissect but i know this wasn't our best performance hence i could only give outstanding reports on two of our guys. A question i asked in previous thread but will here as well was what was the deal with sitting marquees for the first then giving major burn in second? I root very hard for marquees and badly want him to succeed, was K sending a message or just shaking things up meaning he is no longer the secured 1st big man option off the bench?

Forcing myself to watch Duke football tomorrow which may actually make time between furman game drag even more if we keep up our performances over the past 6 weeks, eeeek.

I LOVE THIS TIME OF YEAR!!!!!

[arnie]

At one point mid to late second half Gman was talking about calipari i was watching the game w a group of friends so i couldn't hear everything but in the same few moments after he said he didn't see the final four being something this team could achieve w such young talent bc they aren't as talented as this one. I'm pretty sure he was saying kentucky wasn't talented enough but would just like a conformation.. other than a cold shooting night witch i will just consider tired legs hangover and maybe a bit of looking past southern what i liked was

Wendell being a man child which i think we can count on with consistency, our best two way big man since the land lord? 6 blocks, 3 in one possession how demoralizing and embarrassing for the opposition! Also has great foot work and showed he's capable of stepping out and hitting from mid to 3 which is highly favored in the NBA but not so good if we where looking for him to stick around a while.. i'll take it!

Bags- Super athletic freak of nature, awesome!!

Was watching game w friends will be locking myself in man cave tomorrow morning to further dissect but i know this wasn't our best performance hence i could only give outstanding reports on two of our guys. A question i asked in previous thread but will here as well was what was the deal with sitting marquees for the first then giving major burn in second? I root very hard for marquees and badly want him to succeed, was K sending a message or just shaking things up meaning he is no longer the secured 1st big man option off the bench?

Forcing myself to watch Duke football tomorrow which may actually make time between furman game drag even more if we keep up our performances over the past 6 weeks, eeeek.

I LOVE THIS TIME OF YEAR!!!!!

I also only partially caught G-Mans comments on Final 4. Did a double take, then decided he may have been referring to only Kentucky as young and not enough talent to be there. If someone can rewind their VCR that will help.😎

[Spanarkel]

Duke practiced at 7:30am on Friday.

[tbyers11]

At one point mid to late second half Gman was talking about calipari i was watching the game w a group of friends so i couldn't hear everything but in the same few moments after he said he didn't see the final four being something this team could achieve w such young talent bc they aren't as talented as this one. I'm pretty sure he was saying kentucky wasn't talented enough but would just like a conformation..

Yes, Gminski was taking about Kentucky when he said he didn’t think they were likely to make it to the final four. Said that yes UK has always been really young since Cal focused on the one and dones. But that he thought UK didn’t have as much talent as in previous years in that youth.

[AGDukesky]

I agree with the G-man. This UK team is underwhelming. Kansas was playing short handed and UK has not looked convincing in any of its wins against mid-majors. Oh and if you are worried about Duke’s FT shooting, at least we didn’t go 3-15 like UK did last night. Basically UK has played every game at the level we played last night...

[Troublemaker]

At one point mid to late second half Gman was talking about calipari i was watching the game w a group of friends so i couldn't hear everything but in the same few moments after he said he didn't see the final four being something this team could achieve w such young talent bc they aren't as talented as this one. I'm pretty sure he was saying kentucky wasn't talented enough but would just like a confirmation...

Yep, GMan was talking about Kentucky.



Wendell being a man child which i think we can count on with consistency, our best two way big man since the land lord? 6 blocks, 3 in one possession how demoralizing and embarrassing for the opposition! Also has great foot work and showed he's capable of stepping out and hitting from mid to 3 which is highly favored in the NBA but not so good if we where looking for him to stick around a while.. i'll take it!

I would take it all the way back to Elton Brand. Wendell is bigger than Shelden, more explosive off the ground, more fluid with his post moves, a shooter with more long-distance range, and a much better passer than Shelden. However, I would not object hard with anyone taking a retired jersey great like Shelden over Wendell, who has only played 4 games so far. (But Wendell's certainly better than Shelden as a freshman.)

[azzefkram]

I guess it's good to get a game like this out of your system against a team like Southern. Everyone not named Wendell (and to a lesser extent, Marvin) looked a bit off. I found it interesting that Marques was glued to the bench in the first half but seemed to get a fair amount of play in the second. Alex appears quicker than I thought he'd be and he definitely expends a boatload of effort, if not exactly effective effort. Trevon made some nice passes that should have been converted but was a bit wilder than the past 3 games.

Coach K didn't look to thrilled on the bench and I can't imagine it was pleasant in the locker room at halftime. Overall, it seemed like the type of game a young team might have after a big emotional win.

[DukieInBrasil]

I disagree. He did mostly what I assume the coaches wanted him to do. On defense he hedged a lot up top which resulted in a couple of wide open lanes. The third time that happened the Duke player on the baseline stepped up and stopped the drive unlike the first two times. He did what he was asked.

He also was aggressive down low on offense. 2 rebounds, 4 points and no fouls in 11 minutes. He effected the game when he came in. I'll take that as a plus. Was that comparable, better or worse that DeLaurier's stat line?

you think 2 rebounds in 11 minutes is impressive in any way? It's less than 8 per 40 minutes, and quite sub-par in my book.

Aside from that, i'm glad Duval made a 3 finally. I'm also glad that Carter and Bagley showed up.
Carter was truly impressive. I'm also glad that the effects of the eye poke in the MSU game are apparently gone.

[jv001]

After watching last night's game, I wonder if zone is going to be our main defense. We forced turnovers in the zone that we didn't in the man2man. Time and Coach K will tell. Grayson looked sluggish last night and he didn't have the facial expression we saw in the other 3 games. The first thing I thought of was does he have strep or something else that would bring him down to us human level. I really thought Wendell was our best player last night. He showed why he was highly rated coming out of high school. As for Southern, they played as well as they're going to play this season. They shot 3's as if they had nothing to lose. The game plan to foul our bigs was a great one and I expect to see it a lot this season. Better practice those free throws guys. On to Furman. GoDuke!

[DaleDuke7]

I disagree. He did mostly what I assume the coaches wanted him to do. On defense he hedged a lot up top which resulted in a couple of wide open lanes. The third time that happened the Duke player on the baseline stepped up and stopped the drive unlike the first two times. He did what he was asked.

He also was aggressive down low on offense. 2 rebounds, 4 points and no fouls in 11 minutes. He effected the game when he came in. I'll take that as a plus. Was that comparable, better or worse that DeLaurier's stat line?

As we all know, the stat line doesn’t tell the full story. It doesn’t tell how many times Bolden was slow to react on defense or just plain out of position. With that said, I’ll still take Delaurier’s stat line. He had an assist, an emphatic block, and also 2 rebounds. He didn’t score on one shot attempt, but to me, that’s better that 1-3 for Bolden, considering the team shot at a 44.6 FG%. Don’t get me wrong, I’m glad Bolden is trying and being aggressive, and maybe it will help him in the long run. I just think in this game, and so far this season, he has been ineffective, and more of a liability than an asset.

[sagegrouse]

As we all know, the stat line doesn’t tell the full story. It doesn’t tell how many times Bolden was slow to react on defense or just plain out of position. With that said, I’ll still take Delaurier’s stat line. He had an assist, an emphatic block, and also 2 rebounds. He didn’t score on one shot attempt, but to me, that’s better that 1-3 for Bolden, considering the team shot at a 44.6 FG%. Don’t get me wrong, I’m glad Bolden is trying and being aggressive, and maybe it will help him in the long run. I just think in this game, and so far this season, he has been ineffective, and more of a liability than an asset.

I am pulling for Marques. Last night, there was a clear attempt to involve him in the offense. He did some good things, and I am hoping to see a big improvement over the next few games. We need him, and I want him to do well, both here and in the pros.

The only problem I see with Grayson, Gary and Trevon is that there is only one ball used in the game -- we have a lot of surplus offense.

Kindly,

Sage

[SkyBrickey]

Yep, GMan was talking about Kentucky.



I would take it all the way back to Elton Brand. Wendell is bigger than Shelden, more explosive off the ground, more fluid with his post moves, a shooter with more long-distance range, and a much better passer than Shelden. However, I would not object hard with anyone taking a retired jersey great like Shelden over Wendell, who has only played 4 games so far. (But Wendell's certainly better than Shelden as a freshman.)

Freshman stat lines:

Shelden: 19 min, 8 pts, 6 reb, 1.6 blk, 0.5 ast
Brand: ? min, 13 pts, 7 reb, 1.3 blk, 0.5 ast
Boozer: 23 min, 13 pts, 6 reb, 0.7 blk, 1.1 ast

I think freshman to freshman, Wendell is on-track to perform at or above the level of all these guys. We're only 4 games in against below average competition, but he's currently averaging 24 min, 13 pts, 9 reb, 3.3 blk, and 2.3 ast. The blocks will likely come down, but the other stats could hold against higher level competition. I think he's likely a better rebounder and a better passer than all 3 of those guys at the same age and that's saying a lot.

Unfortunately, we won't ever get to see Wendell's sophomore year vs Brand's breakout year or Wendell's junior year vs Boozer's breakout year...

[dukefan_828]

Yep, GMan was talking about Kentucky.



I would take it all the way back to Elton Brand. Wendell is bigger than Shelden, more explosive off the ground, more fluid with his post moves, a shooter with more long-distance range, and a much better passer than Shelden. However, I would not object hard with anyone taking a retired jersey great like Shelden over Wendell, who has only played 4 games so far. (But Wendell's certainly better than Shelden as a freshman.)

Thanks for the conf. As for wendell and the "Lord" i'm 21 so i had only just turned 8 when we made it to the final 4. I was already a die hard and i remember running out of my parents house to my grandmas crying after the game (she lived next door). Anyways my point is i didn't want to sound dumb by saying i believe wendell is more polished offensively and way more crafty with his foot work then shelden was so thanks again for your confirmation of our personal opinions. Either way not a bad thing to be compared to two of our most talented big men of all time.

[dukefan_828]

Freshman stat lines:

Shelden: 19 min, 8 pts, 6 reb, 1.6 blk, 0.5 ast
Brand: ? min, 13 pts, 7 reb, 1.3 blk, 0.5 ast
Boozer: 23 min, 13 pts, 6 reb, 0.7 blk, 1.1 ast

I think freshman to freshman, Wendell is on-track to perform at or above the level of all these guys. We're only 4 games in against below average competition, .


Not to be a donkey but there was that huge game we played Tuesday against the #2 team in the country who also have some of the most talented big men in the land and carter came to play there as well. So it gives me a better feeling that he's not just bullying lesser opponents he is a true power house who i count on to be consistent for us all year as he seems very poised (i.e all the playing time with 4 fouls against Mich St knowing how pivotal it was for him to stay on the floor, not your typical freshman)! I liked the points and comparisons you made as well, Go Duke!

[CDu]

Freshman stat lines:

Shelden: 19 min, 8 pts, 6 reb, 1.6 blk, 0.5 ast
Brand: ? min, 13 pts, 7 reb, 1.3 blk, 0.5 ast
Boozer: 23 min, 13 pts, 6 reb, 0.7 blk, 1.1 ast

I think freshman to freshman, Wendell is on-track to perform at or above the level of all these guys. We're only 4 games in against below average competition, but he's currently averaging 24 min, 13 pts, 9 reb, 3.3 blk, and 2.3 ast. The blocks will likely come down, but the other stats could hold against higher level competition. I think he's likely a better rebounder and a better passer than all 3 of those guys at the same age and that's saying a lot.

Unfortunately, we won't ever get to see Wendell's sophomore year vs Brand's breakout year or Wendell's junior year vs Boozer's breakout year...

Brand was actually about as good as a frosh as he was as a soph. Similar fg%, similar points and rebounds per minute. He just played fewer minutes (23.5). The difference between his sophomore and freshman years on a national scale is that his teammates got better, with Avery, Battier, and Carrawell improving and adding Maggette.

I do think that Brand is the best physical/skillset comp for Carter. Not that Carter is as good, but that is the closest comp I can see.

[SkyBrickey]

And just for fun, here's Laettner's freshman stat line.

17 min, 9 pts, 5 reb, 0.8 blk, 1.2 ast

[OldPhiKap]

And just for fun, here's Laettner's freshman stat line.

17 min, 9 pts, 5 reb, 0.8 blk, 1.2 ast

Phhht. Never amout to nuthin’

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

And just for fun, here's Laettner's freshman stat line.

17 min, 9 pts, 5 reb, 0.8 blk, 1.2 ast

Wow. That's something, isn't it?

[uh_no]

Duke practiced at 7:30am on Friday.

is that unusual for a saturday in season?

[UrinalCake]

Laettner, Sheldon, Elton, Boozer all played in a different era where the expectations for freshmen were vastly different. They came in and joined teams with multiple upperclassmen and weren’t expected to be the focal points of the team. So it’s not really a fair comparison.

[Saratoga2]

is that unusual for a saturday in season?

Coach K made a point in his presser about the lack of practice time available prior to the Southern game. Maybe the lack of sharpness by the team was an artifact of not getting to practice. Certainly the shooting seemed off. They are in a stretch of 9 games in 20 days along with travel, so this will be a test for the team. We will see how they show up for the Furman game.

[SkyBrickey]

Laettner, Sheldon, Elton, Boozer all played in a different era where the expectations for freshmen were vastly different. They came in and joined teams with multiple upperclassmen and weren’t expected to be the focal points of the team. So it’s not really a fair comparison.

I think the per 40 minute are more relevant. Carter is likely to get more freshman minutes than all these guys, so you'd expect his stats to be higher. However, he is at best the third scoring option on the team, maybe fourth - probably similar to a freshman Brand in that sense.

[ChillinDuke]

I'm not too concerned about this one. Seemed clear to me that we were working on our m2m, which equally clearly needs work. I think that was the main goal, and as a result of the defense being shaky our offense was sort of off.

That plus MSU as our last game. And Grayson going 0fer.

All in all, we won. Somewhat comfortably. It was never a serious concern.

I'm OK with it.

- Chillin

[OldPhiKap]

I think the per 40 minute are more relevant. Carter is likely to get more freshman minutes than all these guys, so you'd expect his stats to be higher. However, he is at best the third scoring option on the team, maybe fourth - probably similar to a freshman Brand in that sense.

True. Sad as it is, we should probably compare the freshmen to these past stars’ final seasons since, well, it likely is for these frosh.

[CDu]

I think the per 40 minute are more relevant. Carter is likely to get more freshman minutes than all these guys, so you'd expect his stats to be higher. However, he is at best the third scoring option on the team, maybe fourth - probably similar to a freshman Brand in that sense.

Brand wasn’t the third or fourth scoring option as a frosh. He was one of three fairly equally utilized lead scorers along with McLeod and Langdon. His points per minute were second of those three, and his numbers were dragged down a bit post injury.

[duke4ever19]

I'm not too concerned about this one. Seemed clear to me that we were working on our m2m, which equally clearly needs work. I think that was the main goal, and as a result of the defense being shaky our offense was sort of off.

That plus MSU as our last game. And Grayson going 0fer.

All in all, we won. Somewhat comfortably. It was never a serious concern.

I'm OK with it.

- Chillin

I agree. Gminski even made a couple references to us featuring our more traditional man-to-man rather than zone.

The typical UNC fan response to any close wins by their team early in the year is that "Roy loves experimenting. It was a teaching moment, so the final score is deceptive" etc. Well, there's sometimes some validity to that excuse and I think that is what K was doing against Southern. Sure, the effort by the team wasn't nearly what it should have been, but the goal was to work on man-to-man defense and Southern was the perfect team to do that with.

[subzero02]

Laettner, Sheldon, Elton, Boozer all played in a different era where the expectations for freshmen were vastly different. They came in and joined teams with multiple upperclassmen and weren’t expected to be the focal points of the team. So it’s not really a fair comparison.

Sheldon never played in any era for Duke... Shelden did though.


It's a bit early to judge but in my opinion, freshman Elton Brand, before his broken foot(and likely afterwards as well), was a better offensive player than Carter. He was unguardable one on one. Carter has great post moves and an extremely high basketball IQ but Elton was better at working his way to the basket for a point blank layup attempt that could only be stopped by fouling him or by doubling him from the weakside. The consistently dominant post game that Brand displayed makes the 99 loss that much harder to swallow. I'd rank Carter as a better defender than Brand as a freshman and he is head shoulders above a freshman Shelden on both ends of the floor.

[DukieInBrasil]

I agree. Gminski even made a couple references to us featuring our more traditional man-to-man rather than zone.

The typical UNC fan response to any close wins by their team early in the year is that "Roy loves experimenting. It was a teaching moment, so the final score is deceptive" etc. Well, there's sometimes some validity to that excuse and I think that is what K was doing against Southern. Sure, the effort by the team wasn't nearly what it should have been, but the goal was to work on man-to-man defense and Southern was the perfect team to do that with.

In general i agree, working on M2M was the goal, and the inability to force turnovers definitely affected the offense.
However, that shouldn't affect the FT shoting, which was atrocious. I would like to think that this was more of an indicator of the level of focus and intensity the team brought to the game, but we've been pretty poor from the line all year.

[mo.st.dukie]

That looked to be our floor. I hope that was our floor!

Wasn't even our building.

As Coach K said, the team didn't play the same way they have been practicing and playing this year. It was just one of those games where the team didn't play like themselves. As fans we shouldn't read too much into this one, just let it go.

[sagegrouse]

Wasn't even our building.

As Coach K said, the team didn't play the same way they have been practicing and playing this year. It was just one of those games where the team didn't play like themselves. As fans we shouldn't read too much into this one, just let it go.

As I understand it, the team schedule this week was -- Monday - travel to Chicago; Tues - walk-through and Michigan State game; Wednesday - travel to Durham; Thursday - required day off; Friday - 7:30 AM "walk-through" (yeah, I bet!) and 7:00 PM game. Not much time for practice.

[Kedsy]

However, that shouldn't affect the FT shoting, which was atrocious. I would like to think that this was more of an indicator of the level of focus and intensity the team brought to the game, but we've been pretty poor from the line all year.

Yeah, we shot 64.9% from the line against Southern, after shooting 65.5% against MSU, 64.7% against UVU, and 27.3% against Elon.

This is what we are from the line. It's unlikely to get better, unless opponents are foolish enough to only foul Grayson.

[MartyClark]

I was not able to watch the game closely last night so I may be wrong on this.

I didn't see many instances where big guys caught the ball low and then kicked it back to Grayson or another shooter on the wing. The big guys were pretty successful scoring from close in but, I think, the low post catch and kick to the wings was missing last night.

[MChambers]

It's a bit early to judge but in my opinion, freshman Elton Brand, before his broken foot(and likely afterwards as well), was a better offensive player than Carter. He was unguardable one on one. Carter has great post moves and an extremely high basketball IQ but Elton was better at working his way to the basket for a point blank layup attempt that could only be stopped by fouling him or by doubling him from the weakside. The consistently dominant post game that Brand displayed makes the 99 loss that much harder to swallow. I'd rank Carter as a better defender than Brand as a freshman and he is head shoulders above a freshman Shelden on both ends of the floor.

I agree that Brand was a better offensive player, but it’s close. Carter has more range and is a much better passer. Defensively, Brand was awfully good. Maybe not quite as good a shot blocker as Carter, but close. Overall, I’d give the edge to Brand, but it’s awfully nice to have Carter.

[mo.st.dukie]

As I understand it, the team schedule this week was -- Monday - travel to Chicago; Tues - walk-through and Michigan State game; Wednesday - travel to Durham; Thursday - required day off; Friday - 7:30 AM "walk-through" (yeah, I bet!) and 7:00 PM game. Not much time for practice.

K said they gave them two days off since the won't get a day off next week due to the PK80. I'm guessing they traveled back to Durham Tuesday night and both Wednesday and Thursday were off days. It's difficult even for veteran teams to have a mature approach to that type of a schedule and even more so for a young team.

[cato]

Freshman stat lines:

Shelden: 19 min, 8 pts, 6 reb, 1.6 blk, 0.5 ast
Brand: ? min, 13 pts, 7 reb, 1.3 blk, 0.5 ast
Boozer: 23 min, 13 pts, 6 reb, 0.7 blk, 1.1 ast

I think freshman to freshman, Wendell is on-track to perform at or above the level of all these guys. We're only 4 games in against below average competition, but he's currently averaging 24 min, 13 pts, 9 reb, 3.3 blk, and 2.3 ast. The blocks will likely come down, but the other stats could hold against higher level competition. I think he's likely a better rebounder and a better passer than all 3 of those guys at the same age and that's saying a lot.

Unfortunately, we won't ever get to see Wendell's sophomore year vs Brand's breakout year or Wendell's junior year vs Boozer's breakout year...

I hope he doesn’t suffer any injuries like Brand in ‘98 or Boozer in ‘01.

Given Brand’s injury, we don’t know how good he could have been his freshman year.

[subzero02]

I hope he doesn’t suffer any injuries like Brand in ‘98 or Boozer in ‘01.

Given Brand’s injury, we don’t know how good he could have been his freshman year.

Or Boozer in 99...

[Kedsy]

Or Boozer in 99...

Was Boozer injured while in high school?

[jimsumner]

Was Boozer injured while in high school?

He suffered a foot injury early in his freshman season, 1999-2000, which cost him much of the pre-season and some early-season games.

[DukieInBrasil]

Yeah, we shot 64.9% from the line against Southern, after shooting 65.5% against MSU, 64.7% against UVU, and 27.3% against Elon.

This is what we are from the line. It's unlikely to get better, unless opponents are foolish enough to only foul Grayson.

well, Bagley was a big reason for the poor FT shooting in the 1st 2 games, but he shot a much more respectable 50% vs Southern. Grayson didn't go to the line at all in the 1st 2 games and is 12-13 since. So i'm under the impression that our current 60.6% from the charity stripe is somewhat below what our season average will be, and my bet is that we'll settle somewhere between 65-70%. My biggest concern is Duval since he'll have the ball in his hands a lot and he's good at getting in the paint/to the rim, where lots of fouls tend to get called. If he can't pull himself up to above 65% from the line that'll be a bad omen. So far Grayson and Gary Trent Jr. are very solid from the FT line, as is O'Connell (Alex and GT2 are only 8-10 overall), and Carter is at a respectable 67%. I don't see Bolden, Bagley or Delaurier really becoming FT savants, but getting north of 50% should be their minimum goal.
With a team dominated by guys 6-10 and taller, it's kind of inevitable that our FT shooting won't be amazing, but it would be nice if there were no liabilities from the stripe.

[-jk]

well, Bagley was a big reason for the poor FT shooting in the 1st 2 games, but he shot a much more respectable 50% vs Southern. Grayson didn't go to the line at all in the 1st 2 games and is 12-13 since. So i'm under the impression that our current 60.6% from the charity stripe is somewhat below what our season average will be, and my bet is that we'll settle somewhere between 65-70%. My biggest concern is Duval since he'll have the ball in his hands a lot and he's good at getting in the paint/to the rim, where lots of fouls tend to get called. If he can't pull himself up to above 65% from the line that'll be a bad omen. So far Grayson and Gary Trent Jr. are very solid from the FT line, as is O'Connell (Alex and GT2 are only 8-10 overall), and Carter is at a respectable 67%. I don't see Bolden, Bagley or Delaurier really becoming FT savants, but getting north of 50% should be their minimum goal.
With a team dominated by guys 6-10 and taller, it's kind of inevitable that our FT shooting won't be amazing, but it would be nice if there were no liabilities from the stripe.

I'm not expecting to see Grayson at the line too much this year. I hope I'm wrong, but I suspect he won't get the benefit of the doubt from the refs very often.

-jk

[subzero02]

Was Boozer injured while in high school?

He was injured before the 99-00 season started. I believe it happened in a pickup game. Christensen started in place of Boozer early that year. We lost our first 2 games to Stanford and UCONN. We were supposed to meet UCONN in the championship game of some preseason tournament but we both lost and wound up playing them in the consolation game.

[Chard]

you think 2 rebounds in 11 minutes is impressive in any way? It's less than 8 per 40 minutes, and quite sub-par in my book.

Aside from that, i'm glad Duval made a 3 finally. I'm also glad that Carter and Bagley showed up.
Carter was truly impressive. I'm also glad that the effects of the eye poke in the MSU game are apparently gone.

You can answer my question first.

[YmoBeThere]

...just let it go.

This is not somethjng we do well here.

[Duke95]

I'm not expecting to see Grayson at the line too much this year. I hope I'm wrong, but I suspect he won't get the benefit of the doubt from the refs very often.

-jk

Why not?

[elvis14]

I'm not expecting to see Grayson at the line too much this year. I hope I'm wrong, but I suspect he won't get the benefit of the doubt from the refs very often.

-jk


Why not?

Sadly, I think -jk is right here. I can't tell you exactly why he won't get calls. I can tell you why I don't think he will and that's just history...after watching his games for 3+ years. The one thing that does come to mind is Grayson's penchant for head snaps and flails to make fouls more obvious...I wonder if the refs think they don't need the help. I hope -jk and I are wrong.

[Dukehky]

I'm not expecting to see Grayson at the line too much this year. I hope I'm wrong, but I suspect he won't get the benefit of the doubt from the refs very often.

-jk

I don't want to see him at the line too much. He's better as a shooter, we have plenty of other guys who can drive with reckless abandon at the rim in Duval and Bagley and it looks like O'Connell if he continues to see minutes.

I think he can get to the line if the team needs it, but I'm content with him being a little smarter about the way his body takes punishment. We need him hitting 3's, pull up jumpers, and then finishing in more crafty ways around the hoop. Especially because, and I don't have them on me, his finishing at the rim isn't great. It's not bad, but he really does seem to go in there to get fouled. This year when he attacks, he hits people with a floater or a little step back from 10 feet that he's making, and he's not getting clobbered.

Also, I've been impressed with how Grayson has been officiated so far this year. 2 fouls called on 3 pointers against MSU, I'll take it!

[Olympic Fan]

Late comer to this thread ... one thing that fascinates me is the criticism of Bolden's performance -- since he was one of three players that Coach K singled out for praise after the game:

We did get a couple really good performances, like Marques (Bolden) gave us a big lift in the second half

[Rich]

Late comer to this thread ... one thing that fascinates me is the criticism of Bolden's performance -- since he was one of three players that Coach K singled out for praise after the game:

We did get a couple really good performances, like Marques (Bolden) gave us a big lift in the second half

Was that actual, truthful praise or coach-speak trying to give him more confidence? Clearly he's behind the starters and DeLaurier on the depth chart right now.

[lotusland]

Laettner, Sheldon, Elton, Boozer all played in a different era where the expectations for freshmen were vastly different. They came in and joined teams with multiple upperclassmen and weren’t expected to be the focal points of the team. So it’s not really a fair comparison.

Exactly right. We have a lot of stat geeks on DBR. I appreciate their information but predicting a recruit’s PT and performance as a Freshman, Sophomore, etc. by his ranking as compared to Duke players prior to 2014/2015 is meaningless. It’s as much about the players returning (or lack there of) as it is about the recruits coming in and vice versa. Gary Trent is going to play as many minutes as he possibly can without passing out or fouling out because Duke only has 3 guard/wings and only 1 who was here last year. Anthony Goldwire doesn’t have to be as good or better than Freshman Tyler Thornton to get in the game. He only needs to be a better option than Alex and JTuck as the 4th guard who spells the starters.

Also Ryan played 4 years and never saw a higher rated big come in after him. If Jabari and Rodney came in his sophomore year, then Okafor and Winslow his junior year, he would have had minimal PT. Probably no more than Jeter.