MBB: Duke 88, Michigan St 81 Post-Game Thread

[JBDuke]

Put your post-game thoughts here.

[WHOneedsSOX]

No Bagley, Trent had a poor game, and they still won. Amazing. DeLaurier was huge in the first. Carter and Duval in the second. Allen all game was amazing.

[wavedukefan70s]

We can be very good this season.

[NSDukeFan]

Grayson frickin Allen!!!

[Selover]

Wow. We are really lucky as fans! Unbelievable performance by Grayson..

Do we even need a MOTM thread?

[AGDukesky]

I’m impressed

[Troublemaker]

Great game and gutty performance without Marvin.

Grayson starts his NPOY campaign.

Props to these two posts below from the pregame thread.


We also have the option of going zone, which I wouldn't be surpised to see early. MSU looks like a team that would struggle against a zone.


I'd like to shine a spotlight on one of my keys to the game: turnovers. Last year, Michigan State was really bad at holding onto to the basketball. Like, really bad. They turned the ball over on 1 of every 5 possessions. That rate was the 301st worst team in the country out of 351. It was a team-wide issue. There were 8 (!) players on the team that averaged a turnover per game. Not surprisingly, this contributed to their mediocre offensive efficiency (1.033 pts per possession, #132 in the nation). It's hard to be efficient when you cough up the rock that often. The first game of the year for MSU did not seem to indicate that they have fixed this problem, either. In the opening win, MSU turned the ball over 21 times to North Florida. Every starter had at least 1 turnover with Nick Ward giving up the ball 5 times in 16 minutes.

It's a major area of concern for MSU. If Duke can get a number of quick buckets in transition, it makes the game that much easier. With the athletes on this Blue Devil team, MSU doesn't want to be giving Grayson Allen and Trevon Duval and Marvin Bagely III open lanes to the basket. That's something to look for from the first few minutes.

How has Duke done in the turnover game so far this season? Pretty good! It helps that Trevon Duval has 20 assists against a single turnover. But the team has a nearly 2:1 assist-to-turnover ratio to go along with 21 steals.

Speaking of steals, another thing to notice is the play of Trevon Duval against their point guards, Cassius Winston and All-Name Team member Lourawls "TumTum" Nairns. Neither is particularly tall or blazingly fast. Duval has absurdly long arms for his size (6'3" with a 6'9"+ wingspan), which allows him to disrupt passing lanes in both man-to-man and in the zone. If he can make it difficult for MSU to swing the ball or initiative offense, the game can turn to Duke's favor.

Another player to watch will be Wendell Carter III. He's a big dude compared to his counterpart in the game, both taller (Carter is 6'10" while Ward goes 6'8") and longer (Carter has a 7'3" wingspan while Ward is at 7'2") than Nick Ward. Carter has been good at both blocking shots and generating steals from the post in his limited time on the court so far. If he can get Nick Ward to travel or deflect entry passes, it's off to the races.

On the flip side, I think keeping those two, Duval and Carter, out of foul trouble will be another key. It's hard to play aggressive defense when you're on the bench or afraid to pick up that 3rd foul in the first half. We've seen each of those two get a couple of early fouls so far this young season. Staying clear of the refs is a big area of focus from my seat.

Let's Go Duke!

[BD80]

Izzo is PISSED!

Did you see how fast he went through the handshake line? That is certainly not like him!

[slower]

Normally, I'd vote for Duval for MOTM, but I mean, come on...Grayson Freaking Allen.

[OldPhiKap]

We may be okay this year.

[Dukeblue91]

OMG what a great game! Grayson just single handedly carried the team.

[dukebluesincebirth]

Grayson just made a statement.

[OZZIE4DUKE]

When the POG thread is started, it better be Grayson and “are you kidding me?” as the choices!

[gep]

Any more word on Marvin?

[NYBri]

Marvin update?

[flyingdutchdevil]

Normally, I'd vote for Duval for MOTM, but I mean, come on...Grayson Freaking Allen.

You and me both. Duval was incredible. Grayson was out of this world.

[rthomas]

Da-ummmm.

[diablesseblu]

Izzo is PISSED!

Did you see how fast he went through the handshake line? That is certainly not like him!

I DVRd the game as I'm traveling. This comment really piqued my curiosity though. Any thoughts on the roots of Izzo's demeanor other than the obvious distress over losing?

[fidel]

Great game by Grayson!

Carter was a beast, minus the bonehead elbow. But he is for real down low.

Great minutes by Javin.

Bagley, get well soon.

[Furniture]

will the best team in the country please stand up???

[Devilwin]

Grayson was just unreal, magnificent, Duval was great, and Wendell gave us a lift in the second. To beat this team without Bagley was just an affirmation of the number one ranking.

[TKG]

Loved Grayson naming Trevon in his post game interview.

[DangerDevil]

Great win!

Hopefully Bagley is ok and back soon.

Great job on the boards.

We have to get better on the FT line, better job in the second half I think. Interesting that we shot 11 more FTs than MSU even though there wasn't a foul discrepancy 20-21. I guess that had to do with our rebounding?

Another reason to love Grayson Allen and the fact that he is still a Blue Devil! I wish he would have answered Maria Taylor's post game interview question of "Grayson what was working for you tonight?" with a reply of "Everything".

[flyingdutchdevil]

I DVRd the game as I'm traveling. This comment really piqued my curiosity though. Any thoughts on the roots of Izzo's demeanor other than the obvious distress over losing?

Yeah. Izzo can’t beat K.

[DukieInBrasil]

i was nervous there for a bit in the 2nd half, but Grayson took over and willed the team to a win. Duval is a special player, even if he can't shoot outside of 10ft. I was really down on our inside play early, but in the final 10 minutes, Wendell really played like a bona fide stud. Javin Delaurier deserves to get some award, Best Energy Guy or some such: 4pts, 7 rebs, 4 asts, 3 steals 2 blocks and no turns, that's an amazing stat line.
Our Fr. looked overwhelmed for a good 2/3 to 3/4 of the game, but down the stretch Duval and Grayson guided the team to a fantastic win!!!

[Troublemaker]

When the POG thread is started, it better be Grayson and “are you kidding me?” as the choices!

I'm voting Grayson, but Trevon has a legitimate case, imo. (And our classy captain credited him in his postgame interview with ESPN).

17 points, 10 assists, and 6 steals out of that zone. Helped Grayson with the scoring load in the second half, going to the basket in transition, off handoffs, and with ball screens.

[Doria]

Izzo is PISSED!

Did you see how fast he went through the handshake line? That is certainly not like him!

Yeah, I can’t remember seeing him come so close to blowing it off. He’s normally good tempered, even in a loss.

Man, Grayson was fantastic! Duval’s been great, as well!

[slower]

Grayson's game reminded me of JJ's "Texas" game.

[DangerDevil]

Loved Grayson naming Trevon in his post game interview.

That was a great answer but part of me wishes he would have answered "Everything" to her question of what was working for him. 😀

[DangerDevil]

Yeah. Izzo can’t beat K.

I was worried that tonight was the night that the law of averages finally started to catch up.

[InSpades]

Someone said Duval can't shoot and they may be right but the kid can do a lot of things really well and we're lucky to have him. Beginning to really like him!

I'm not sure how effective the defense actually is but it looks effective. I'm sure having Bagley on that back line would make it even better.

Bolden still looks completely lost. I kind of feel bad for him. Javin should be the 1st man off the bench. Surprised at how much we got off the bench... Goldwire had some nice plays in the 1st half but I'm not sure how much he played in the 2nd half.

Coach really let them play w/ fouls. Javin and Gary both had 4 w/ a lot of time left and stayed in the game for most of it.

Grayson... WOW. This is what he came back to do last year and we are blessed to have him back to give it another shot this year. So clutch, he really carried the offense (w/ a huge assist, pun intended, from Tre).

Great win. Get better soon Marvin.

[CameronCrazy'11]

At what point should Izzo stop getting so much praise for winning in March (though not April) and start getting criticism for being so mediocre every other month?

[FerryFor50]

Currently in Germany for work and it's 3:20AM here. I watched over a VPN. #dedication

Anyway...

Really impressed with this win for a variety of reasons.

- Guts and determination to out battle a traditionally tough Michigan State team
- huge game on the glass - especially the offensive glass. 21 boards!
- more composure down the stretch for the Duke freshmen then the Mich State upperclassmen
- huge shot by Trent from 3 near the end when he'd been 0-6 prior. Guts!
- Solid game for Duval; he still seems to force things too much sometimes and has a little trouble finishing through contact, but he seemed to feed off the physicality and played harder down the stretch. Only a couple turnovers and a double double in points and assists, as well as some solid defense.
- Wendell Carter is a man. Didn't back down to Nick Ward trying to bully him. Absorbed the physicality and gave it back. Double double.
- Grayson Allen is BACK. Has his swagger again and is shooting lights out in the first 3 games.
- Delaurier disrupting the passing lanes and grabbing boards and almost throwing down a ridiculous putback dunk
- winning despite losing one of your best players, who was an obvious matchup problem for MSU

Some things need work though.

- better ball movement
- better closeouts on 3s
- better shot selection, especially on offensive rebounds. Kick it back out!

Vrank gave decent minutes, and Bolden looked ok, but couldn't handle MSU's physicality. Bolden doesn't seem to have a ton of spring to his jumps and often attempts shots flat footed or barely off the ground, which is why he kept getting blocked or having shots altered.

Hopefully Bagley is ok, but I suspect he'll be out at least a game, maybe more.

[FerryFor50]

I DVRd the game as I'm traveling. This comment really piqued my curiosity though. Any thoughts on the roots of Izzo's demeanor other than the obvious distress over losing?

Izzo looked kinda pissed after Grayson got fouled and it looked like Grayson said something to the MSU player. Izzo had that sarcastic smile/laugh going after that.

[Furniture]

Somebody is shooting up the draft boards! His name is Grayson Allen. In most mock drafts Bridges is in the low teens and Grayson in the high 20's. I know who I would want.

[DukieInBrasil]

Currently in Germany for work and it's 3:20AM here. I watched over a VPN. #dedication

Anyway...

Really impressed with this win for a variety of reasons.

- Guts and determination to out battle a traditionally tough Michigan State team
- huge game on the glass - especially the offensive glass. 21 boards!
- more composure down the stretch for the Duke freshmen then the Mich State upperclassmen
- huge shot by Trent from 3 near the end when he'd been 0-6 prior. Guts!
- Solid game for Duval; he still seems to force things too much sometimes and has a little trouble finishing through contact, but he seemed to feed off the physicality and played harder down the stretch. Only a couple turnovers and a double double in points and assists, as well as some solid defense.
- Wendell Carter is a man. Didn't back down to Nick Ward trying to bully him. Absorbed the physicality and gave it back. Double double.
- Grayson Allen is BACK. Has his swagger again and is shooting lights out in the first 3 games.
- Delaurier disrupting the passing lanes and grabbing boards and almost throwing down a ridiculous putback dunk
- winning despite losing one of your best players, who was an obvious matchup problem for MSU

Some things need work though.

- better ball movement
- better closeouts on 3s
- better shot selection, especially on offensive rebounds. Kick it back out!

Vrank gave decent minutes, and Bolden looked ok, but couldn't handle MSU's physicality. Bolden doesn't seem to have a ton of spring to his jumps and often attempts shots flat footed or barely off the ground, which is why he kept getting blocked or having shots altered.

Hopefully Bridges is ok, but I suspect he'll be out at least a game, maybe more.

better edit that quick...

[DDoc74]

Put your post-game thoughts here.

Grayson Grayson and Grayson

[FerryFor50]

better edit that quick...

lol, thanks. I did say it was 3AM here. :-P

[slower]

Izzo looked kinda pissed after Grayson got fouled and it looked like Grayson said something to the MSU player. Izzo had that sarcastic smile/laugh going after that.

Yeah, the ref (Valentine?) said something to Grayson at the foul line. Slightly worrisome that he almost lost composure there at the end. But that was a brutal game.

[OZZIE4DUKE]

If the janitor is not a tarheel, then why is the water in the toilet bowl carolina blue?

Slower, I love your tag line!

[weezie]

Izzo looked kinda pissed after Grayson got fouled and it looked like Grayson said something to the MSU player. Izzo had that sarcastic smile/laugh going after that.

If there's one thing you can truly count on, it's sparty teams inevitably being kind of dumb. They cannot weather adversity and the will evaporates. The dumb starts to overwhelm.

[oldbailey]

Looking at the box score, you could say Duke won this game at the free throw line -- which makes no sense given how bad we were there.

[Furniture]

Izzo looked kinda pissed after Grayson got fouled and it looked like Grayson said something to the MSU player. Izzo had that sarcastic smile/laugh going after that.

He should have been mad at his own player for waiting an eternity to foul Grayson.

[Dukeblue91]

Now to see Kentucky getting humiliated and this was the perfect night.

[FerryFor50]

Yeah, the ref (Valentine?) said something to Grayson at the foul line. Slightly worrisome that he almost lost composure there at the end. But that was a brutal game.

I don't think Allen lost his composure. I think he was annoyed by the fact that Sparty was fouling so late in the game down so many points. Probably had been hearing trash talk from Sparty all night long, too. I know I saw Nick Ward constantly jawing.

[Kjeffrey]

Izzo looked kinda pissed after Grayson got fouled and it looked like Grayson said something to the MSU player. Izzo had that sarcastic smile/laugh going after that.

It would be humorous if that annoyed him since his players ran their mouths throughout the game.

[TheOldBattleship]

Coach really let them play w/ fouls. Javin and Gary both had 4 w/ a lot of time left and stayed in the game for most of it.

This was HUGE for us. Both of those guys did a ton of work crashing in from the corners on boards and on closing out hard without letting McQuaid and Bridges get around them in the zone after they had 4 fouls. Just enormous. Really mature games from both, especially Trent, who just couldn't buy a bucket for most of the game. Instead of getting frustrated, he dug in, played a solid, workmanlike game, spaced the floor out for Allen with good movement offball, and hit that one huge three. DeLaurier just makes things happen all over the court, especially on defense.

Grayson was outrageous, Duval continues to just be fantastic despite his inability to shoot (I'm guessing he'll get to the point pretty soon where he's confident enough in his driving/finishing to just eat up that space with his dribble when they give it to him rather than chucking up a shot), and the backups gave good minutes!

Shoutout to the big guys, who just had to wrestle for 40 minutes. Most of the time they handled it really, really well. Carter (ours) got absolutely baited by an clever older player (Carter; theirs) and has to keep his cool (doesn't keep ME from being irritated on his behalf because MSU Carter saw he was pissed after getting tied up and very deliberately grabbed his jersey...). People are going to go after him like that all year if he's seen to lose his temper. But overall, really composed effort to go out there and be super aggressive against a super aggressive, super big front line. Great sign for the year.

Heck of a game overall. Really impressive to gut out a win without Bagley. Get well soon, MB!

[Furniture]

https://www.pscp.tv/dukebasketball/1OwGWMbPVbqxQ

live presser

[MChambers]

I DVRd the game as I'm traveling. This comment really piqued my curiosity though. Any thoughts on the roots of Izzo's demeanor other than the obvious distress over losing?

Losing to K yet again? He said he thinks about it every day.

https://michiganstate.247sports.com/Article/Michigan-State-basketball-Tom-Izzo-driven-by-struggles-against-Duke-Mike-Krzyzewskis-success-110441134

[MrPoon]

So fun. Coach talks about teams’ response to adversity and this game had a ton. BagIII, fouls (real and imagined), but Duval GA and Trent played a ton of mins steady. Carter got stronger and looked into the most phisical team he may see all year and stiffened. Javin showed chops. Loved it. Get health Bags, get healthy Bolden. Look out this team’s roof is the ceiling.

[CDu]

That was just pure excellence. Down our most talented player, with another of our starters REALLY struggling, the other guys stepped up. Duval, Carter, and of course Allen were fantastic tonight. Absolutely fantastic.

Duval: the sky is the limit for this kid. He did nothing tonight to dispel the Derrick Rose comp. The dude is a stud. Game-changer on both ends.

Carter: he didn’t have an easy night, but he reminded me of Brand with his ability to pound the glass, hold position inside, and challenge shots. He is such a great anchor in the middle to allow Bagley and DeLaurier to ballhawk.

Allen: Jesus! What a night. The dude just would not miss! Loved him giving the postgame accolades to his teammates. Here’s hoping this season is a special one for him. He has been through a lot.

Trent: Rough night. There will be better ones. At least he hit a huge shot late to push the game close to out of reach.

DeLaurier: The guy is a defensive presence. I think the Tyrus Thomas comp might just work. He is long, athletic, and uber-energetic. A really nice option off the bench.

Bagley: brief night, but was impactful when he was in. Hopefully the eye injury isn’t too serious.

The rest: Goldwire appears to be the primary guard off the bench. He will play whenever Duval sits, and will get some of the sub minutes for Allen (when that happens) and Trent. He is a good defender and a caretaker, and Coach K wants Allen to focus on SG. Bolden had a quiet night. Vrank too. They were minutes filler for Carter.

Zone: Huh. This roster seems well-suited for zone. The amazing thing was that we dominated the glass despite the zone. That is a testament to how good a rebounding group this can be. Carter, Bagley, and DeLaurier appear to be exceptional at it, and even Bolden got into the act tonight. Great, great win. All the sweeter that it came shorthanded. I don’t think MSU was really the #2 team, but I do think they are a very good, definite top-10 team. And if they are really #2 we are in terrific shape nationally if we stay healthy.

[Furniture]

K says Bagleys eye is scratched but he thinks he will be fine. He said at one point it was starting to shut.

[FerryFor50]

Gary Parrish says that K called Bagley's injury a scratched eye. That shouldn't be too serious.

[Troublemaker]

I'm not sure how effective the defense actually is but it looks effective. I'm sure having Bagley on that back line would make it even better.

Yeah, on non-turnover possessions, the zone really wasn't all that good. BUT, other than that Mrs Lincoln, how was the play, haha?

The turnovers were huge. With MSU's rim protection, we really needed the turnovers to help boost our scoring and for Grayson to go off from deep. We don't score enough to win without those two factors.


Somebody is shooting up the draft boards! His name is Grayson Allen. In most mock drafts Bridges is in the low teens and Grayson in the high 20's. I know who I would want.

Still Bridges. The NBA game is different, and big wings like Bridges are scarce right now. But I think Grayson is the better college player.


If there's one thing you can truly count on, it's sparty teams inevitably being kind of dumb. They cannot weather adversity and the will evaporates. The dumb starts to overwhelm.

They can't make all those Final Fours if this were true, imo. I'd rather give us credit for being clutch :-)

[jipops]

I still can't believe we played zone for the entire game.

[subzero02]

Grayson was great... not quite JJ going Coocoo for cocoa puffs against Texas but every bit as enjoyable.

[FerryFor50]

Still Bridges. The NBA game is different, and big wings like Bridges are scarce right now. But I think Grayson is the better college player.




Yea, agreed on Bridges. 6'10" guys with handles and 3pt range are way more valuable than guys like Allen with a more limited skill set.

[BLPOG]

Grayson Allen to the press after the game:

"High score? What does that mean? Did I break it?"

"I've been doing a lot of squats in the off-season. I'm ready to put the team on my back."

[weezie]

I still can't believe we played zone for the entire game.

It was startling. But what a nice tall zone! A no fly zone, if you will.

[WHOneedsSOX]

Still Bridges. The NBA game is different, and big wings like Bridges are scarce right now. But I think Grayson is the better college player.

Yeah and Allen is two years older meaning he's more experienced and more developed. That makes a huge difference. Two years from now in the NBA I'd guess Bridges is the better NBA player.

[BLPOG]

I still can't believe we played zone for the entire game.

I can't believe I was OK with it...

[Furniture]

Grayson was great... not quite JJ going Coocoo for cocoa puffs against Texas but every bit as enjoyable.
K said it felt like he was coaching Reddick tonight.

[flyingdutchdevil]

Yeah and Allen is two years older meaning he's more experienced and more developed. That makes a huge difference. Two years from now in the NBA I'd guess Bridges is the better NBA player.

Two years from now i don’t wanna face a senior Miles Bridges. Dude is fierce

[jwillfan]

I still can't believe we played zone for the entire game.

Was thinking that - when we played zone against the Utah team I figured it was because it was effective against them by UK the night before. Then when we came out in it tonight I thought "OK K is finally admitting that his M2M is too hard to teach to so many freshman so we'll start the season in zone and eventually evolve into more M2M" then I thought "WHAT MADNESS IS THIS!!!"

Seriously - it's not been more than 3 years since we NEVER played zone or if we did, it would be super-remarkable. I credit K for continuing to adapt - this is reason # 654457 why he's the GOAT

[CarmenWallaceWade]

28 assists for Duval in first 3 games. Most ever in first 3 games by any Duke freshman.

[CDu]

Yea, agreed on Bridges. 6'10" guys with handles and 3pt range are way more valuable than guys like Allen with a more limited skill set.

Bridges is only 6’7”.

[flyingdutchdevil]

K said it felt like he was coaching Reddick tonight.

One D. Like Duval has one L

[CDu]

28 assists for Duval in first 3 games. Most ever in first 3 games by any Duke freshman.

I think he is actually up to 30. Had 20 coming in, 10 tonight.

[Furniture]

One D. Like Duval has one L

Sorrry about that.

[flyingdutchdevil]

28 assists for Duval in first 3 games. Most ever in first 3 games by any Duke freshman.

30 assists

[Faison1]

What a difference a year makes! It appears we have a pretty solid team.

Last year, it looked like a bunch of mismatched pieces. This year, the team is gelling like it's mid-season already...

[FerryFor50]

Bridges is only 6’7”.

Sure felt 6'10". :-P

[jwillfan]

What a difference a year makes! It appears we have a pretty solid team.

Last year, it looked like a bunch of mismatched pieces. This year, the team is gelling like it's mid-season already...

Biggest differences are healthy Grayson and a true PG.

[ipatent]

Great win and fantastic game to watch as a fan. Duke fought through adversity with the Bagley injury and Trent not having a great shooting night with timely shooting by Grayson Allen and tough play down the stretch by Carter and Duval.

The best thing is they're only going to get better if they stay healthy.

[Ballboy1998]

We might not see another game that entertaining until March. I think it sets a great tone for the team to have Grayson carry them in this early test -- always helps legitimize a leader for him to be able to lead by example like that, and I'm sure all the freshmen were taking note.

In addition to Grayson's phenomenal performance, Duval was great as well, as others have noted. Duval struggled a bit early, including looking a bit rattled by getting stuffed pretty hard on an early drive, but he settled in very well. I was also very, very impressed with Wendell Carter Jr. He had to handle a huge amount of physicality down low, and a lot of uncalled contact, and while he perhaps showed a bit of frustration he did not shy from it at all. He has good hands, good feel, is a great post passer, and his rebounding and uncanny shot blocking ability for a relatively below-the-rim player remind me of freshman Elton Brand. Carter is going to be a stud by the end of the season, if not much sooner. Finally, shoutout to Goldwire and Delaurier who both provided big sparks off the bench.

Mich. St. looked very impotent trying to attack the zone. Perhaps our zone -- with all our length this year -- is that imposing, but it practically looked like Mich. St. didn't run any practice sets against the 2-3. While that might generally seem reasonable against Duke (and I did not expect us to play 2-3 from the opening tip), given that Duke used it in their first two games and Mich. St. is a very zone-able team, I'm surprised they did not look more prepared to attack it.

Now get well soon Marvin Bagley!

[weezie]

K said it felt like he was coaching Reddick tonight.


Can I assume that meant, "Watch him go!"

[TheOldBattleship]

I can't believe I was OK with it [the zone]...

Seriously, K is amazing. This was the one way we had to slow down Bridges: make him see two bodies literally every time he caught the ball facing the basket. If we play man, Michigan State puts him in the mid post EVERY PLAY and runs cutters around him. Bridges can absolutely be a playmaker out of (or just bull his way through) a double team when he's stationary, but he's just not super skilled at creating off the bounce yet. K just straight up refusing to budge on the zone no matter what was just genius. He loves to take away the other team's best player, and the fact that he can continue to do so even when that best player fits directly against our biggest weakness (big wing) is just absurd.

[Ultrarunner]

I can't believe I was OK with it...

This zone brought to you by the letter “W”.

Also K and the number 1001.

How adaptable is Coach K?

[lotusland]

Fun game between 2 evenly matched teams. Without Bagley, Duke needed a great game from GA to beat Sparty. All the starters and Javin played great, battled and grew up tonight. I’m surprised Bolden only played 9 minutes with Bagley out. Maybe he’s still recooperating? Vrank was solid for 5 minutes. Alex played when Gary went out with 4 so he’s clearly ahead of Jack an JTuck at 3 now. JGold had 7 minutes and a 3 in the first half. Did Duvall play the whole second half? Guard depth looks like possible Achilles heel but the team looks awesome so far.

[mgtr]

We won, so that is great. But, win or lose, that was one great college basketball game. Wonderful plays on both sides. Glad I recorded it to watch again, and again.

[jipops]

Biggest differences are healthy Grayson and a true PG.

...and length...lots of length.
Enough to play 40 minutes of zone and STILL beat a big team on the boards.

[BLPOG]

K said it felt like he was coaching Reddick tonight.

Loved that line.

[BLPOG]

At what point should Izzo stop getting so much praise for winning in March (though not April) and start getting criticism for being so mediocre every other month?

After he hasn't won a natty, gotten to the FF 7 times, or been Big Ten regular season/tournament champion 7/5 times. Oh, wait...

IMO, Coach K tends starts fast (regarding player development, playing as a team, winning against superior talent, etc.), while Izzo starts slowly. Since they schedule each other for non-conference games, that makes for a lot of K wins over Izzo. It is what it is. Izzo's still a great Coach.

In the era when the regular season really mattered, your point would hold more sway. With the number of teams in the field these days...it's all about the tournaments.

[Newton_14]

A dear friend of mine texted me last Spring and said "Mark, we have our PG". I believed him then and man was he more than right. A high octane engine with a great steering wheel maximizes that horsepower. Trevon was great on both ends, and Grayson Allen is a machine. Best player in the ACC and probably the best player in the Country. (If only barely the best player on his own team). What a game by the old man. I really hate Bagley got hurt as other than that it was a great great night. We have a lot of different and unique weapons, one of them apparently is a pretty darn good zone defense. Who knew?

Losing Bagley threw the rotation and game plan out of whack but lots of guys stepped up. I thought Javin helped us a lot defensively as did Goldwire. Bolden is still not back in game shape but he battled in his limited minutes as did Vrank. It is going to be really interesting to see how often K deploys the zone. With the players on this year's team, it looks to me like the best zone team we've had under K. We shall see.

Down the stretch, the 3 by Trent to break the 75-75 tie, and then the 3 by Grayson at the top of the key to extend it to 6 were big time, dagger shots. Champion type shots. A great sign.


Passing tonight's test without Bagley was a huge statement. Can't wait for the next big test.

Let's go Duke!

[MrPoon]

K said it felt like he was coaching Reddick tonight.

He then thanked Grayson for making his plays work!

Anyone know who I should cheer for in the second game? I have reasons to dislike both! Leaning Kansas but open to suggestions!

[flyingdutchdevil]

He then thanked Grayson for making his plays work!

Anyone know who I should cheer for in the second game? I have reasons to dislike both! Leaning Kansas but open to suggestions!

Kansas. ABC 2.0. Anyone but calipari

[WillJ]

I thought Goldwire's play was very encouraging.

[Kjeffrey]

No Tucker tonight?

[WHOneedsSOX]

He then thanked Grayson for making his plays work!

Anyone know who I should cheer for in the second game? I have reasons to dislike both! Leaning Kansas but open to suggestions!

Kansas. Love seeing Calapari fail.

[devilsince1977]

I was worried that tonight was the night that the law of averages finally started to catch up.

They did, on average we beat MSU.

[CDu]

No Tucker tonight?

Nope. He was behind White in the rotation in the first two games, and neither guy got in this close game. Barring injury, Tucker probably isn’t playing meaningful minutes this year.

[ElSid]

I don't think it was surprising at all that we played zone. We saw zone a good amount in the first two games. And it was clear looking at the MSU lineup that putting one or two guys man to man on Bridges wasn't going to work. We forced him to take a lot of deep threes, and he made some of them, but made him less dominant.

Our length makes zone very dangerous against teams who aren't known to be great 3pt shooters. I was surprised how well Jaren shot it.

Goldwire is a major surprise. He played well in the first two games but I didn't expect him here at all. Certainly didn't expect Duval and Goldwire in together, but they looked good. A deflection and a steal, and a 3 pointer. Goldwire as a senior could be a Frank Mason type, but better. Taller at least.

Only disappointment was Bolden. Can keep making (valid) excuses, like streptococcus. I'm hoping for a Zoubekian renaissance this year, but more likely next year. I don't think we have much in the pipeline for big guys next year, so a Javin, Vrank, Bolden front line could be very good, experienced, and under relatively low pressure with great guards and wings who can carry the offense. Rebound and play defense and show poise, and all three guys could get a sniff at the League.

Couldn't have asked for a more satisfying Grayson Allen break out game. Standing strong behind my prediction he averages more than 20ppg. You just can't replace shooting.

[Furniture]

No Tucker tonight?

Nada.

[MrPoon]

If its not already been said, we did it without a very important piece, Coach Capel.
Thoughts with him and his family. Impressed by his willingness and openness to share some of the process publicly in what has to be very hard. 64 is way too soon. Glad we got a win for both of them.

[Troublemaker]

Goldwire as a senior could be a Frank Mason type, but better. Taller at least.

In... before the deluge of posts pointing out that Frank Mason was national player of the year last season.

Goldwire's been a nice surprise but I think he's a 4-year contributing backup player, and we should be thrilled with that :-)

[devilnfla]

After he hasn't won a natty, gotten to the FF 7 times, or been Big Ten regular season/tournament champion 7/5 times. Oh, wait...

IMO, Coach K tends starts fast (regarding player development, playing as a team, winning against superior talent, etc.), while Izzo starts slowly. Since they schedule each other for non-conference games, that makes for a lot of K wins over Izzo. It is what it is. Izzo's still a great Coach.

In the era when the regular season really mattered, your point would hold more sway. With the number of teams in the field these days...it's all about the tournaments.

K owns him in postseason too.

[AGDukesky]

K said it felt like he was coaching Reddick tonight.

He felt like a baseball manager?

[MrPoon]

Watching the KU Cats game, its not just rankings, Duke got the best of this class. I’d take any of our top three or four before anyone that I can see play for the Cats.
They have no one close to Bagley, Duval, or Carter. Not sure yet between Knox and Trent but I’m real happy with Trent, really really happy.

[WHOneedsSOX]

Knox looks really good. Wouldn't have gotten Bagley if we got Knox though I assume.

[pfrduke]

Watching the KU Cats game, its not just rankings, Duke got the best of this class. I’d take any of our top three or four before anyone that I can see play for the Cats.
They have no one close to Bagley, Duval, or Carter. Not sure yet between Knox and Trent but I’m real happy with Trent, really really happy.

Does Kentucky actually have a one and done candidate this year? Maybe Knox? No one else looks that good.

[flyingdutchdevil]

Does Kentucky actually have a one and done candidate this year? Maybe Knox? No one else looks that good.

Knox is OAD for sure. And do you consider Frank Jackson an OAD? Cus UK will have a few freshman prematurely leave and become second round picks.

[BLPOG]

K owns him in postseason too.

I was there in 2015. I know. ;)

[Kjeffrey]

Knox looks really good. Wouldn't have gotten Bagley if we got Knox though I assume.

I am thrilled to have Bagley and hope he is OK. Btw, Knox reminds me of a recent Carolina player. Anyone else see the resemblance?

[pfrduke]

Knox is OAD for sure. And do you consider Frank Jackson an OAD? Cus UK will have a few freshman prematurely leave and become second round picks.

I mean, yes. But the broader point is that there don’t seem to be a lot of UK freshmen that would be first round picks next year. Won’t stop some from leaving, but still.

[flyingdutchdevil]

I mean, yes. But the broader point is that there don’t seem to be a lot of UK freshmen that would be first round picks next year. Won’t stop some from leaving, but still.

Some idiot NBA team will take a gamble on Diallo. He’s Andrew Wiggins without a jumper. 100% athlete

[lotusland]

I don't think it was surprising at all that we played zone. We saw zone a good amount in the first two games. And it was clear looking at the MSU lineup that putting one or two guys man to man on Bridges wasn't going to work. We forced him to take a lot of deep threes, and he made some of them, but made him less dominant.

Our length makes zone very dangerous against teams who aren't known to be great 3pt shooters. I was surprised how well Jaren shot it.

Goldwire is a major surprise. He played well in the first two games but I didn't expect him here at all. Certainly didn't expect Duval and Goldwire in together, but they looked good. A deflection and a steal, and a 3 pointer. Goldwire as a senior could be a Frank Mason type, but better. Taller at least.

Only disappointment was Bolden. Can keep making (valid) excuses, like streptococcus. I'm hoping for a Zoubekian renaissance this year, but more likely next year. I don't think we have much in the pipeline for big guys next year, so a Javin, Vrank, Bolden front line could be very good, experienced, and under relatively low pressure with great guards and wings who can carry the offense. Rebound and play defense and show poise, and all three guys could get a sniff at the League.

Couldn't have asked for a more satisfying Grayson Allen break out game. Standing strong behind my prediction he averages more than 20ppg. You just can't replace shooting.

Our starting guard/wings played 40, 37 and 35 minutes so someone else has to play meaningful minutes in a close game. JGold, being a PG, should be a competent ball handler, and passer who can knock down a wide open shot. A guy who’s least likely to hurt the team with mistakes while the starters rest is probably the best option for this year’s team. At this point I’d pick Goldwire to be 8th in non-garbage mpg ahead of Vrank, Alex, JTuck, Jack and JRob. He played sixth most (11 minutes) tonight which was ahead of Bagley and Bolden.

[AGDukesky]

Reports seem to be the Bagley likely won’t miss the game on Friday. If so, this result could not have been better. Others key players got to make big plays and the bench got quality minutes against a good team. Plus the whole winning thing...

[dukelifer]

Knox looks really good. Wouldn't have gotten Bagley if we got Knox though I assume.

Knox is good but Bagley is special.

[pfrduke]

Some idiot NBA team will take a gamble on Diallo. He’s Andrew Wiggins without a jumper. 100% athlete

I guess we also still haven’t seen Jarred Vanderbilt.

[pfrduke]

Reports seem to be the Bagley likely won’t miss the game on Friday. If so, this result could not have been better. Others key players got to make big plays and the bench got quality minutes against a good team. Plus the whole winning thing...

I’m going to go out on a limb and say that we beat Southern regardless of whether Bagley is playing.

[DangerDevil]

Some idiot NBA team will take a gamble on Diallo. He’s Andrew Wiggins without a jumper. 100% athlete

I know he didn't play last year but does Diallo count as freshman?

Separate question, what color are Quade Green's shoes? Blue-green?

[BLPOG]

Watch Izzo's post-game press conference for a little bit of fun :)

[TheOldBattleship]

I am thrilled to have Bagley and hope he is OK. Btw, Knox reminds me of a recent Carolina player. Anyone else see the resemblance?

I've definitely seen Kentucky folks refer to Knox as "Skinnedy Meeks"...

[OldPhiKap]

Watch Izzo's post-game press conference for a little bit of fun :)

Link? Not on GoDuke yet.

[Kjeffrey]

I've definitely seen Kentucky folks refer to Knox as "Skinnedy Meeks"...

Hilarious!!

[WHOneedsSOX]

I've definitely seen Kentucky folks refer to Knox as "Skinnedy Meeks"...

Lol that's funny.

[ElSid]

In... before the deluge of posts pointing out that Frank Mason was national player of the year last season.

Goldwire's been a nice surprise but I think he's a 4-year contributing backup player, and we should be thrilled with that :-)

Mild irrational exuberance may be at work here.

Mason is...an excellent 4 year guard whose name I could remember. There's certainly a better comparison, but the fact Goldwire got meaningful minutes and preformed in our biggest game of the year is just really surprising and fascinating.

I can say he looks, no offense, way more fluid and athletic and naturally talented than Tyler Thornton, who I greatly admired.

[WHOneedsSOX]

Mild irrational exuberance may be at work here.

Mason is...an excellent 4 year guard whose name I could remember. There's certainly a better comparison, but the fact Goldwire got meaningful minutes and preformed in our biggest game of the year is just really surprising and fascinating.

I can say he looks, no offense, way more fluid and athletic and naturally talented than Tyler Thornton, who I greatly admired.

I'd be thrilled if Goldwire turned out as good as someone like Quinn Cook even if he's not as good a shooter.

[dukelifer]

That was just pure excellence. Down our most talented player, with another of our starters REALLY struggling, the other guys stepped up. Duval, Carter, and of course Allen were fantastic tonight. Absolutely fantastic.

Duval: the sky is the limit for this kid. He did nothing tonight to dispel the Derrick Rose comp. The dude is a stud. Game-changer on both ends.

Carter: he didn’t have an easy night, but he reminded me of Brand with his ability to pound the glass, hold position inside, and challenge shots. He is such a great anchor in the middle to allow Bagley and DeLaurier to ballhawk.

Allen: Jesus! What a night. The dude just would not miss! Loved him giving the postgame accolades to his teammates. Here’s hoping this season is a special one for him. He has been through a lot.

Trent: Rough night. There will be better ones. At least he hit a huge shot late to push the game close to out of reach.

DeLaurier: The guy is a defensive presence. I think the Tyrus Thomas comp might just work. He is long, athletic, and uber-energetic. A really nice option off the bench.

Bagley: brief night, but was impactful when he was in. Hopefully the eye injury isn’t too serious.

The rest: Goldwire appears to be the primary guard off the bench. He will play whenever Duval sits, and will get some of the sub minutes for Allen (when that happens) and Trent. He is a good defender and a caretaker, and Coach K wants Allen to focus on SG. Bolden had a quiet night. Vrank too. They were minutes filler for Carter.

Zone: Huh. This roster seems well-suited for zone. The amazing thing was that we dominated the glass despite the zone. That is a testament to how good a rebounding group this can be. Carter, Bagley, and DeLaurier appear to be exceptional at it, and even Bolden got into the act tonight. Great, great win. All the sweeter that it came shorthanded. I don’t think MSU was really the #2 team, but I do think they are a very good, definite top-10 team. And if they are really #2 we are in terrific shape nationally if we stay healthy.
Fun game- lots of runs. Guys learned a lot. I liked how Carter battled all game and finally figured some things out in crunch time. I have been impressed with Duval the last three games- he is focused. . Kid can't shoot but does everything else well. Excellent vision and a power driver/dunker. He has helped GA's game. Javin had a number of big plays and contributed on both ends. Allen was amazing. Last year he struggled in the game against Kansas. This year he played like a pro. Excellent win against a physical team.

[ElSid]

Wowza, just saw this comparison on The Twitter:

Trevon's 30 assists in 3 games is better than any 3 game stretch for Tyus all season, where he had 26. Trevon has as many double digit assists games as Tyus did all season.

Tyus could shoot the 3 and the midrange, but that's a crazy stat. We got a good one in Duval, and had a good one in Tyus, too.

[subzero02]

Sorrry about that.

I saw it too but let it go :-)... they did misspell Justise's name on the recruiting map graphic. Duval really impressed me tonight. Tyus spoiled us rotten but we have a special one. I guess I see why Jackson had more incentive to go pro now.

[sagegrouse]

Fun game- lots of runs. Guys learned a lot. I liked how Carter battled all game and finally figured some things out in crunch time. I have been impressed with Duval the last three games- he is focused. . Kid can't shoot but does everything else well. Excellent vision and a power driver/dunker. He has helped GA's game. Javin had a number of big plays and contributed on both ends. Allen was amazing. Last year he struggled in the game against Kansas. This year he played like a pro. Excellent win against a physical team.

One conclusion -- Javin DeLaurier is one heckuva college basketball player. He is quick, long and makes plays.

[WHOneedsSOX]

One conclusion -- Javin DeLaurier is one heckuva college basketball player. He is quick and long and seems to make plays.

If he stays all 4 years he could be really damn good in college.

[Saratoga2]

My first game of the year and I must say I was very impressed with the team and its performance.

This was largely a very inexperienced team thrown into a hostile environment against a high quality team. There were a number of runs by both teams, but this team showed no sign of folding and even played well with the key bigs in foul trouble down the final minutes.

GA gets a lot of credit for his incredible scoring ability but he should also get credit for talking during the game and advising the younger players throughout. You could see him correcting guys on the fly and he also mentioned that facet in the post game interview.

Bagley looked great at the early stages of the game but having him lost due to the poke in the right eye early on put more pressure on our bigs and made their fouling more important. It sounds like Bagley will be back soon, I certainly hope so.

In the remainder of the game Cater was excellent and is a force inside. I found it interesting that our guys were able to out rebound Mich St. Clearly DeLaurier is our first big off the bench and provides energy, athleticism and length. Great depth to have. Neither Varnk or Bolden are in the same ball park but Bolden may still have been recovering from illness. Against some teams their size may be useful to us.

Duval is a great ball distributer with speed and floor vision. He also is a solid scorer going to the hoop and he may fool us as his shooting develops during the season. While Trent didn't have a big game, he seems to fit the team well and may gain confidence and get hot shooting the ball.

Goldwire can play and he gives Duval a chance for a blow and may also be able to score more than I first thought. Oconnell is rail thin and I thought he might have been able to score but seemed not to want to take on that responsibility right now. I am sure that the coaches will encourage him.

Our zone defense has great length and zones do give up more opportunities for 3 point shots. We saw that tonight as well and guys getting open shots near the basket behind our defenders. Still I liked our zone and it will get better. We also got schooled early on about getting back as MSU made a few fast break baskets. Lesson out of this is that we are very good.

[devildeac]

Yea, agreed on Bridges. 6'10" guys with handles and 3pt range are way more valuable than guys like Allen with a more limited skill set.

Bridges is listed on their official roster as 6'7'' and 225 lbs. Not sure how that translates into Spartan cinder blocks. :rolleyes:

[ElSid]

I'd be thrilled if Goldwire turned out as good as someone like Quinn Cook even if he's not as good a shooter.

That's a better one. Keep it in the family. Quinn is similar size. Goldwire is a little more wiry and maybe longer. Seems like we sniffed out a diamond in the rough though. If he turns out as good as Quinn Cook, props to the recruiter who picked him out.

[devildeac]

28 assists for Duval in first 3 games. Most ever in first 3 games by any Duke freshman.

I think it's 30A. Even better ;).

[OldPhiKap]

Bridges is listed on their official roster as 6'7'' and 225 lbs. Not sure how that translates into Spartan cinder blocks. :rolleyes:

They measure players in lunch pails up there.

And I mean that as a compliment.

[Billy Dat]

Fantastic game, great win!

Count me amomg those GOBSMACKED that a K Duke team just played 40 minutes of zone. Not one minute of M2M. That is incredible.

The game had so many twist and turns. When Bagley went out and MSU roared back into the game, K went small with Javin and Vrank trading off at the 5 when Carter and Bolden weren’t in foul trouble. Those weird small line-ups actually did Ok (eye test, I guess the +\- stats will tell the tale). Carter, to his credit, shook off a poor first half and played great in the second half.

Allen was incredible. I think it was better than JJ vs Texas because that was a blowout and there was tons of game pressure in this one.

Duvall was a revelation. I agree with whomever upthread said that if they dare him to shoot (which they should because he was BAD) maybe he just gets moving downhill and finishes with drives and floaters.

All that without Marvin who looked good in his few minutes. If he’s ok, then it was great to win a big one so all the other guys get some confidence delivering in big spots.

Very very satisfying win.

[WHOneedsSOX]

That's a better one. Keep it in the family. Quinn is similar size. Goldwire is a little more wiry and maybe longer. Seems like we sniffed out a diamond in the rough though. If he turns out as good as Quinn Cook, props to the recruiter who picked him out.

Lot of good Duke comparisons. Someone like Duhon would be awesome too.

[BLPOG]

Link? Not on GoDuke yet.

Edit: wrong link, sorry, will keep looking. Might have been an old video, now that I think about it.

[DangerDevil]

I may have missed it mentioned elsewhere but in addition to everything else Grayson did tonight, he looked like he was having fun again!

Playing as well as he did and scoring 37 points as you lead your team to victory over the #2 in the country probably helps make it enjoyable. It was still nice to see!

[sagegrouse]

Allen was incredible. I think it was better than JJ vs Texas because that was a blowout and there was tons of game pressure in this one.

What was incredible is that Grayson scored 37, but for long periods of the first half, ihe seemed to be in the witness protection program. No one would pass him the ball, and he didn't demand it. But he was incredibly efficient and scored 14 points on seven shots

[BLPOG]

Watch Izzo's post-game press conference for a little bit of fun :)

FYI, I think the video I found earlier might have been an old one...I've been searching and came across a couple videos from phones, but it looks like the official one isn't available yet

[BandAlum83]

Slower, I love your tag line!

I actually don't. It's a bit elitist, and being a janitor is an honest difficult living.

I understand the thought that the lack of education (which is the knock on UNC), will land you in a job as an unskilled laborer, but most janitors probably didn't have the same educational opportunities as many, and it may be the best they can do.

Janitors and other laborers deserve respect for the hard work they do for mostly ungrateful and non-recognizing people.

Sorry to derail....but I have been thinking about that tagline for quite some time now.

[LasVegas]

There isn’t much I can add to this but Duval really needs to improve his shot selection. A few posters might remember but I wasn’t very high on Duval after the first few times I saw him this year but he has been fabulous in the regular season games. If he could shoot, he might be the best player in the nation. I love his defense. I love his attitude. I love his ability to get to the rack. He just needs to take better shots.

And I loved how carter unleased the beast and turned into a MAN. A hell of an adjustment by a freshman.

[Gooch]

I’m really excited that so many guys got in the game even for a short run. I think playing (and winning) a game like this early in the year is huge for our development. Will we play a tougher team until March or April?

It was so fun to watch the game at a bar next to a Kentucky fan a watch his face drop every time Grayson hit a dagger three. I’m a proud Dukie tonight!

[Billy Dat]

The Managers and their “towel wall” attempts af privacy are ridiculous, as is their full tilt insane sprint to the halftime locker room. They seem like great kids but their rah rah is so easy to mock.

The kid Jackson on MSU is quite a player.

[Skydog]

I actually don't. It's a bit elitist, and being a janitor is an honest difficult living.

I understand the thought that the lack of education (which is the knock on UNC), will land you in a job as an unskilled laborer, but most janitors probably didn't have the same educational opportunities as many, and it may be the best they can do.

Janitors and other laborers deserve respect for the hard work they do for mostly ungrateful and non-recognizing people.

Sorry to derail...but I have been thinking about that tagline for quite some time now.

Agree.

But back to the game - not much to add that hasn't been said. I agree with everyone that Allen was out of this world and won the game for us. Duval was out of this world for a freshman and the whole team showed incredible heart. Sadly I don't think Bolden will ever be very good because of his atrocious defense - he reacts sooooo slowly to every play. Every time he entered the game MSU went on a scoring spree. But Grayson Allen and Trevon Duval.... wow...

[DangerDevil]

The Managers and their “towel wall” attempts af privacy are ridiculous, as is their full tilt insane sprint to the halftime locker room. They seem like great kids but their rah rah is so easy to mock.


I don't disagree but I doubt they are the ones that came up with either idea.

[cptnflash]

Is there a way that we can play Michigan State more than once or twice a year? These are basically guarantee games at this point.

[DevilFalcon]

This team is going to be really really really really good. Please let a minor eye injury be the extent of our teams woes this year. After all the recent injury riddled years, aren't we due a healthy one? This is the best Duke team since pre-toe-injury 2011.

Bold prediction: Allen is ACC player of the year, national player of the year, 2 time national champion, and then..... gets #3 retired.
Think about it. A senior that is a top player (rare in this era), with a national award and two rings? That just might do it.

[BLPOG]

The Managers and their “towel wall” attempts af privacy are ridiculous, as is their full tilt insane sprint to the halftime locker room. They seem like great kids but their rah rah is so easy to mock.

The kid Jackson on MSU is quite a player.

It might look stupid, but I don't mind the idea of giving players a mildly greater degree of privacy.

[jimsumner]

Goldwire is better than I anticipated and looks like a nice, complementary player.

But Frank Mason? Quinn Cook? Chris Duhon?

A bit over the top, methinks. Actually, more than a bit.

[LasVegas]

It might look stupid, but I don't mind the idea of giving players a mildly greater degree of privacy.

I especially like how it is done for privacy yet ESPN just dangles a camera over the “huddle”. Like, really espn?

[pfrduke]

Goldwire is better than I anticipated and looks like a nice, complementary player.

But Frank Mason? Quinn Cook? Chris Duhon?

A bit over the top, methinks. Actually, more than a bit.

100%. I love what he’s shown so far but will take almost any bet that he’s not the National player of the year as a senior.

[sagegrouse]

The Managers and their “towel wall” attempts af privacy are ridiculous, as is their full tilt insane sprint to the halftime locker room. They seem like great kids but their rah rah is so easy to mock.
It seems to be a trend. Both college football and the NFL have pop-up tents to mask player medical treatment and offer some privacy.

[WHOneedsSOX]

Goldwire is better than I anticipated and looks like a nice, complementary player.

But Frank Mason? Quinn Cook? Chris Duhon?

A bit over the top, methinks. Actually, more than a bit.

It was just a best case scenario. Too early to tell if he'll be as good as any of those. Most likely not Mason but leader of the team point guard is really valuable as well.

[Billy Dat]

It seems to be a trend. Both college football and the NFL have pop-up tents to mask player medical treatment and offer some privacy.

Fair enough. I mostly laugh at it, but their overall intensity seems satirical.

[brlftz]

Raise your hand if you predicted we would see a lineup of Trevon, JGold, O'Connell, Allen, and Vrank in the first half of a matchup like this. Or, ever, really.

[jimsumner]

It was just a best case scenario. Too early to tell if he'll be as good as any of those. Most likely not Mason but leader of the team point guard is really valuable as well.

I'm sorry but I don't think it's too early to tell that Jordan Goldwire isn't going to be as good as Frank Mason. Or even Chris Duhon, who was runner-up for ACC POY in 2004, consensus second-team All-America in 2004 and who played nine seasons in the NBA.

Tyler Thornton is a much better comp, IMO. And Thornton played a lot of minutes for some pretty good Duke teams. I'll take that for Goldwire, in a New York minute.

[Troublemaker]

There isn’t much I can add to this but Duval really needs to improve his shot selection. A few posters might remember but I wasn’t very high on Duval after the first few times I saw him this year but he has been fabulous in the regular season games. If he could shoot, he might be the best player in the nation. I love his defense. I love his attitude. I love his ability to get to the rack. He just needs to take better shots.

This is a game I'd love to re-watch this week, so I'll look for what you're saying, but first time through I didn't think Trevon took many bad shots at all. I thought he had trouble finishing against MSU's bigs at first (very understandably) and then eventually started finishing really well. He was an important secondary scorer to Grayson in the second half.


This team is going to be really really really really good. Please let a minor eye injury be the extent of our teams woes this year. After all the recent injury riddled years, aren't we due a healthy one? This is the best Duke team since pre-toe-injury 2011.

Bold prediction: Allen is ACC player of the year, national player of the year, 2 time national champion, and then... gets #3 retired.
Think about it. A senior that is a top player (rare in this era), with a national award and two rings? That just might do it.

NPOY would make it a lock, imo, regardless of any other accolade or team accomplishment. He's been a great Duke player.


It was just a best case scenario. Too early to tell if he'll be as good as any of those. Most likely not Mason but leader of the team point guard is really valuable as well.

Love JGold, but it's really not too early to tell whether he'll become as good as Mason, Duhon, or Cook.

[brlftz]

This is interesting. I was pretty sure Wendell didn't just launch an elbow at some guy's face on purpose. This picture (https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DOo_N7cX4AEM3P9.jpg:large) shows a pretty good view of what I think he was really doing, which was trying to free himself up from someone who was grabbing him.

[coachbob]

This is interesting. I was pretty sure Wendell didn't just launch an elbow at some guys face on purpose. This picture (https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DOo_N7cX4AEM3P9.jpg:large) shows a pretty good view of what I think he was really doing, which was trying to free himself up from someone who was grabbing him.

That is exactly what happened. His jersey was being grabbed and he tried to swat the hand away.

[Ima Facultiwyfe]

Loved Grayson naming Trevon in his post game interview.

You bet.
Love, Ima

[LasVegas]

This is a game I'd love to re-watch this week, so I'll look for what you're saying, but first time through I didn't think Trevon took many bad shots at all. I thought he had trouble finishing against MSU's bigs at first (very understandably) and then eventually started finishing really well. He was an important secondary scorer to Grayson in the second half.

I’ll probably rewatch it as well. I didn’t really mean bad shot selection in general terms. Just bad shot selection for him. I don’t think he needs to take any threes or any long twos. Get to the rack or at least close to it until you can reliably hit an outside shot. And maybe he can but just hasn’t found his rhythm yet. Or maybe my memory of his shots also isn’t very good. Either way, his bread and butter probably has to be as close to the rim as possible.

[WHOneedsSOX]

I'm sorry but I don't think it's too early to tell that Jordan Goldwire isn't going to be as good as Frank Mason. Or even Chris Duhon, who was runner-up for ACC POY in 2004, consensus second-team All-America in 2004 and who played nine seasons in the NBA.

Tyler Thornton is a much better comp, IMO. And Thornton played a lot of minutes for some pretty good Duke teams. I'll take that for Goldwire, in a New York minute.

You guys are right. Of course not Mason and in my excitement of the win tonight I just threw out comparisons without really remembering how good Duhon and Cook were.

[TheOldBattleship]

One conclusion -- Javin DeLaurier is one heckuva college basketball player. He is quick, long and makes plays.

He's definitely a threat to end up with a 5x5 before his Duke career is over. He was at 4/7/4/3/2 today in 24 minutes. Anyone care to do the stats digging to see if we've had a 5x5 recently? (Or at all? 5x5s are no joke, even with the extra 8 minutes in the NBA.) I'd be legitimately very interested in finding out!

[Kedsy]

We have to get better on the FT line, better job in the second half I think.

I'll be surprised if our free throw shooting is ever much better than it was today. Of our top 7 guys, only two of them can shoot FTs. Our third best FT shooter (of the top 7) is Wendell, and he's going to struggle to get up to 70%.


- huge game on the glass - especially the offensive glass. 21 boards!

Yeah, offensive rebounding percentage of 52.1%, which is insane, especially against a traditionally strong rebounding team like Michigan State. Defensive rebounding percentage was 65.6%, which is only OK in a vacuum, but again is pretty good against a team like the Spartans.


more composure down the stretch for the Duke freshmen then the Mich State upperclassmen

To be fair to Michigan State, none of their starters were upperclassmen (4 sophs and a frosh).


better closeouts on 3s

I'm not so sure about this one. Michigan State hit 61.1% of their two-point shots and only 36.0% of their three-point shots, and yet 41% of their shots were threes. I think that was K's intent. If we tried to stop them from shooting threes and gave up more twos at 61%, we would have lost the game.


Two years from now i don’t wanna face a senior Miles Bridges.

Don't worry. Unless you're an NBA fan, you won't have to.


Goldwire is a major surprise. He played well in the first two games but I didn't expect him here at all. Certainly didn't expect Duval and Goldwire in together, but they looked good.

Yeah, I'm very surprised that Jordan G played 11 minutes in a competitive game. And I'm shocked that he and Trevon were on the court at the same time, even for a few minutes.



Goldwire as a senior could be a Frank Mason type, but better.


In... before the deluge of posts pointing out that Frank Mason was national player of the year last season.

Yeah, this is what we in the business call hyperbole. No way Jordan G will ever be Frank Mason (20 and 5, Big 12 POY, 1st Team AA, NPOY in some publications). There's also no way he'll be Quinn Cook, Chris Duhon, or probably not even a starter for Duke, at any point in his career. Not that there's anything wrong with that.


...and all three guys [Marques; Javin; Antonio] could get a sniff at the League.

More of the big h. Antonio will not be sniffing the League, unless you mean the Euro League.

[striker219]

This is interesting. I was pretty sure Wendell didn't just launch an elbow at some guy's face on purpose. This picture (https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DOo_N7cX4AEM3P9.jpg:large) shows a pretty good view of what I think he was really doing, which was trying to free himself up from someone who was grabbing him.

That drove me completely insane during the game. Jay Bilas started with "I didn't see what happened" then immediately formed a very strong opinion about what happened and then refused to accept the video evidence of what actually happened.

MSU Carter latched on to the back of Wendell's jersey to keep him from running up the court and he (Wendell) swung his arm back to break free. It was probably overly aggressive and it was a foul but there was nothing flagrant there. But Jay had already made up his mind so that's all the audience heard.

[brlftz]

That drove me completely insane during the game. Jay Bilas started with "I didn't see what happened" then immediately formed a very strong opinion about what happened and then refused to accept the video evidence of what actually happened.

MSU Carter latched on to the back of Wendell's jersey to keep him from running up the court and he (Wendell) swung his arm back to break free. It was probably overly aggressive and it was a foul but there was nothing flagrant there. But Jay had already made up his mind so that's all the audience heard.

yeah, that was me too! wendell reacted strongly, granted, but the point is it was a reaction. jay and co. were acting like wendell's entire career was in the end just a ruse so that he could unleash this unexpected blow upon poor defenseless msu-carter.

[Scorp4me]

I wasn't going to say anything, but I think many of you are selling Goldwire waaaaay short. I admit it's going to take a while and so we probably won't know for another 4 years by which time we will all have forgotten about it. But I really like what the kid brings to the court and obviously K does too.

[FerryFor50]

I'm sorry but I don't think it's too early to tell that Jordan Goldwire isn't going to be as good as Frank Mason. Or even Chris Duhon, who was runner-up for ACC POY in 2004, consensus second-team All-America in 2004 and who played nine seasons in the NBA.

Tyler Thornton is a much better comp, IMO. And Thornton played a lot of minutes for some pretty good Duke teams. I'll take that for Goldwire, in a New York minute.

I also think he'll be a bit like Thornton, but he already looks like he can handle the ball better and shoot better than Tyler did.

[wavedukefan70s]

This is interesting. I was pretty sure Wendell didn't just launch an elbow at some guy's face on purpose. This picture (https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DOo_N7cX4AEM3P9.jpg:large) shows a pretty good view of what I think he was really doing, which was trying to free himself up from someone who was grabbing him.

I will watch it again.im sure he was puting his feet under him from behind also ever so slightly.

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

I wasn't going to say anything, but I think many of you are selling Goldwire waaaaay short. I admit it's going to take a while and so we probably won't know for another 4 years by which time we will all have forgotten about it. But I really like what the kid brings to the court and obviously K does too.

I don't have a dog in this fight, but how many of us would have thought three games into 2014-2015 that Grayson would be Redick-like early 2017-2018?

Put me in the "too early to tell" camp.

Great gritty win.

Ice up that eye, Bagley.

[luburch]

Grayson. Allen.

I hope his jersey ends up in the rafters. If it does, it likely means things went well for Duke this season.

Michigan State did a fantastic job of challenging Duke at the rim. As the game went on, I thought the Duke bigs got better at sealing their defender behind them so he couldn't come help. This allowed Duval to get a few uncontested layups.

[Dr. Rosenrosen]

Calling Wheat... our boys know how to throw entry passes. Next topic for discussion?

[MChambers]

I still can't believe we played zone for the entire game.

It was working, so K stuck with it. Plus, with Bagley out and the team in some foul trouble, man defense wasn’t a good option. But, yeah, I agree with you.

[elvis14]

This is interesting. I was pretty sure Wendell didn't just launch an elbow at some guy's face on purpose. This picture (https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DOo_N7cX4AEM3P9.jpg:large) shows a pretty good view of what I think he was really doing, which was trying to free himself up from someone who was grabbing him.

Looking at this picture, it would have been really cool if they would have given technicals to both players. Had to give one to Wendell but that's OK. It was really just bad luck that the caught that thug with the elbow as he tried to free himself from from that cheap play.

On another note, since I haven't commented on the game let me just say that last night's game was really fun to watch. MSU always plays hoops like it's football so to see our young team step up, adjust to the over the top physicality and win was really really cool. I'm really trying hard not to let my expectations for this team get hyperbolic but I'm starting to fail in that regard because they are really good.

Oh and Grayson Allen was beyond fantastic. Wow! He didn't just score, he led. I specifically remember a play where Wendell got crushed trying to shoot and missed. On the way back up the floor, Grayson visited with him. Don't know what he said, obviously, but it was obvious he was just helping keep the freshman straight in the head.

[slower]

I actually don't. It's a bit elitist, and being a janitor is an honest difficult living.

I understand the thought that the lack of education (which is the knock on UNC), will land you in a job as an unskilled laborer, but most janitors probably didn't have the same educational opportunities as many, and it may be the best they can do.

Janitors and other laborers deserve respect for the hard work they do for mostly ungrateful and non-recognizing people.

Sorry to derail...but I have been thinking about that tagline for quite some time now.

Lighten up, Francis.

My tagline is a take on the "If God is not a..." BS that Hole fans like to use. No offense intended - except to Hole fans, of course.

[WillJ]

I'm sorry but I don't think it's too early to tell that Jordan Goldwire isn't going to be as good as Frank Mason. Or even Chris Duhon, who was runner-up for ACC POY in 2004, consensus second-team All-America in 2004 and who played nine seasons in the NBA.

Tyler Thornton is a much better comp, IMO. And Thornton played a lot of minutes for some pretty good Duke teams. I'll take that for Goldwire, in a New York minute.

Based on one game, I think he's a lot better than Thornton. Tyler seems like a great young man, but he was perhaps the least talented player to ever get starter time on good Duke teams. Forget precisely which year, but there was one year where he was our starting point guard and, over the last ten games of the seasons, he had more fouls than points+assists. Think about that for a minute. I think Goldwire can do much better.

[-jk]

I actually don't. It's a bit elitist, and being a janitor is an honest difficult living.

I understand the thought that the lack of education (which is the knock on UNC), will land you in a job as an unskilled laborer, but most janitors probably didn't have the same educational opportunities as many, and it may be the best they can do.

Janitors and other laborers deserve respect for the hard work they do for mostly ungrateful and non-recognizing people.

Sorry to derail...but I have been thinking about that tagline for quite some time now.


Lighten up, Francis.

My tagline is a take on the "If God is not a..." BS that Hole fans like to use. No offense intended - except to Hole fans, of course.

Easy, guys...

-jk

[Duke76]

Calling Wheat... our boys know how to throw entry passes. Next topic for discussion?

Just like to take us back to last year briefly in contrasting Grayson's health and how it affected his shot. The contrast between this year and last could not be more evident. Lat year the majority of his shots were set shots his ankles were so bad. His shot now is as pretty you will see in the game, I'd say perfect in style and form (he took very few off balance shots, squaring up and going straight up) and his ability to run and come off picks like JJ did in his glory years, especially in that game last night you can understand why K said that about comparison between JJ and Grayson. He said, he liked calling those plays for Grayson because "they were working'...well they are going to keep on working as long as he Grayson stays healthy. It helps as Grayson says in reply to, "why were you so hot"?..."Trevon"

On another note...Jayson Tatum....noticed in Celtic highlights from last night it looks like Celtics have gotten him out of the the "fade away" habit on his shots, going straight up....

[Henderson]

Is there a link for the Izzo post-game presser yet? I haven't seen one, and I'm curious what he had to say. He seemed pretty ticked off at game's end.

[slower]

Calling Wheat... our boys know how to throw entry passes. Next topic for discussion?

Please don't rattle his cage. Please.

[slower]

Easy, guys...

-jk

No worries here, boss. I was just trying to explain that it's strictly a humorous twist on an irritating saying. I come in peace. :p

[TKG]

Calling Wheat... our boys know how to throw entry passes. Next topic for discussion?

Why throw chum in the water, particularly with a protected species?

[CajunDevil]

Game thoughts

I was extremely impressed with how Coach K used the bench in this game. It seems rare for K to go more than 7 or 8 in a big game, but with Bagley injured and foul trouble, K adjusted and trusted Goldwire, O’Connell, and Vrank at crucial times.

Grayson was superb, and looks so comfortable.

Our bigs were knocked back early by MSU’s ability to block shots and beating us down the floor, however, once our bigs settled in - they balled. Carter and Javin were very active. Bagley was Just starting to get comfortable when he was hit in the eye.

Impressed by the grit this team showed.

Duval going downhill reminds me of Derrick Rose... very hard to stop. Unfortunately, his jumper also reminds me of D-Rose. Great game and great start 30 assists, 12 steals. Really impressive

[Ballboy1998]

Is there a link for the Izzo post-game presser yet? I haven't seen one, and I'm curious what he had to say. He seemed pretty ticked off at game's end.

I found it posted on the MSU fan board, though haven't been able to track down a cleaner source: https://michiganstate.247sports.com/Board/93/Contents/Tom-Izzo-postgame-press-conference-video-110508854

From multiple references to his head-to-head record against Coach K, it seems like his inability to win against K is what had him visibly frustrated at the end.

[sagegrouse]

Calling Wheat... our boys know how to throw entry passes. Next topic for discussion?

What would Wheat say? Easy. He will say that Duke is like an outstanding Roy Williams team with -- great athleticism; the ability to run, run, run; outstanding rebounding, especially on the offensive boards; and sketchy shooting.

[MChambers]

I found it posted on the MSU fan board, though haven't been able to track down a cleaner source: https://michiganstate.247sports.com/Board/93/Contents/Tom-Izzo-postgame-press-conference-video-110508854

From multiple references to his head-to-head record against Coach K, it seems like his inability to win against K is what had him visibly frustrated at the end.

Izzo was quoted before the game as saying that he thinks about his record against K every day, which is pretty amazing. (Wonder if he thinks about his record against UNCheat?).

[BD80]

Yeah. Izzo can’t beat K.


Losing to K yet again? He said he thinks about it every day.

https://michiganstate.247sports.com/Article/Michigan-State-basketball-Tom-Izzo-driven-by-struggles-against-Duke-Mike-Krzyzewskis-success-110441134

Does any other coach have more wins against Izzo? He's 546-221.

Izzo started at MSU in 1995. Only 10 years against Keady at Purdue, 13 years against Painter at Purdue, 13 years against Thad Motta at OSU, 13 years against Bo Ryan at Wiscy, 10 years against Beilein at UM, 9 years against Bruce Webber at Illinois. With unbalanced scheduling and so many years without a Big 10 tournament, I doubt any of them rang up 11 wins against Izzo.



As for the game, truly a battle of the behemoths - I only recall one attempted lob by either team, and it was awful. Although there were a multitude of high altitude blocks, the front court players all got a great lesson that the battle is fought from the waist down. Great learning experience. Our Carter battled like a true warrior. Our defensive rebounding % would have been much higher with Bagley on the floor, as he would sweep the longer boards while Carter boxed out down low, keeping MSU bigs from jumping.

As for Bagley - zero fouls!

[davekay1971]

What would Wheat say? Easy. He will say that Duke is like an outstanding Roy Williams team with -- great athleticism; the ability to run, run, run; outstanding rebounding, especially on the offensive boards; and sketchy shooting.

Like the 2005, 2008, and 2009 teams except our guys actually go to classes and do work and other irritatingly non-basketball stuff?

[uh_no]

Game thoughts

I was extremely impressed with how Coach K used the bench in this game. It seems rare for K to go more than 7 or 8 in a big game, but with Bagley injured and foul trouble, K adjusted and trusted Goldwire, O’Connell, and Vrank at crucial times.


vrank's minutes to close out the first half was the underrated performance of the game.

[gotoguy]

vrank's minutes to close out the first half was the underrated performance of the game.

Agree, he had a nice bucket inside where he used his big body to seal his man. Not many inside buckets by our bigs which were not strongly contested by the Spartan D

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

What would Wheat say? Easy. He will say that Duke is like an outstanding Roy Williams team with -- great athleticism; the ability to run, run, run; outstanding rebounding, especially on the offensive boards; and sketchy shooting.

He would also note that K clearly has been cribbing notes from Roy's groundbreaking practice of using different lineups in preseason and early season to mix things up.

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

vrank's minutes to close out the first half was the underrated performance of the game.

I also thought Vrank played solid minutes at a critical point in the game. He does more than take up space - defenses have to account for him.

[slower]

What would Wheat say? Easy. He will say that Duke is like an outstanding Roy Williams team with -- great athleticism; the ability to run, run, run; outstanding rebounding, especially on the offensive boards; and sketchy shooting.

Guys, PLEASE stop it, or he shall appear.

Wheatlejuice, Wheatlejuice, Wheatlejuice! :p

[luburch]

I also thought Vrank played solid minutes at a critical point in the game. He does more than take up space - defenses have to account for him.

Thought Vrank did okay for the most part. He did get pushed under on a MSU free throw that resulted in an offensive rebound and put-back basket, though.

[devildeac]

This is interesting. I was pretty sure Wendell didn't just launch an elbow at some guy's face on purpose. This picture (https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DOo_N7cX4AEM3P9.jpg:large) shows a pretty good view of what I think he was really doing, which was trying to free himself up from someone who was grabbing him.


That is exactly what happened. His jersey was being grabbed and he tried to swat the hand away.

Terrible teddy didn't see it that way:mad:. But, then again, terrible teddy can see things from 30-40 feet away that aren't his calls.

[CrazyNotCrazie]

Fun, exciting game. It was nice to see real point guard play after last year. Grayson played aggressively while limiting some of the out-of-control drives to the hoop that he has had in the past, which will also help preserve his body for the whole season. Carter did a great job of finding his way out there.

I was really excited about Goldwire. He seemed to show the perfect balance between knowing he is the fifth option but not being afraid of the game - I liked how he carried himself. He was not brought in to be a star and will not be one, but the team will not suffer with him on the court, which is key. Not to damn him with a comparison to a Tar Heel, but I can see him being a better version of Stillman White, who filled in admirably for Kendall Marshall in the NCAA Tournament a few years ago - he kept things going and got his more talented teammates in great positions to succeed.

Thoughts and prayers to the Capel family - Coach was missed and hopefully this win was dedicated to his dad.

[Henderson]

Izzo was quoted before the game as saying that he thinks about his record against K every day, which is pretty amazing.

Jim Valvano (RIP) famously advised that every person should do three things every day: Laugh, Cry, and Think. Izzo is apparently checking at least two of those boxes every morning.

[David Bunkley]

Michigan State sure does an awful lot of floor-slapping when they play DUKE.

You'd think they would cut that out considering K basically owns Izzo.

Oh, well... I guess some people never learn.

#GODUKE

[PackMan97]

Thank you for the entertaining game.

[uh_no]

Jim Valvano (RIP) famously advised that every person should do three things every day: Laugh, Cry, and Think. Izzo is apparently checking at least two of those boxes every morning.

wasn't it "laugh, cry, and THE GREEN BAY PACKERS" or am I mixing up parts of the speech :)

[ChillinDuke]

I especially like how it is done for privacy yet ESPN just dangles a camera over the “huddle”. Like, really espn?

Maybe they'll add an "umbrella wall."

- Chillin

[UrinalCake]

Wow, what a performance. To see the freshmen show up on a big stage like this is not something we should take for granted. They did seem to have some jitters early as Carter and Bagley both missed fairly easy shots, but quickly settled in. Pretty amazing that with a few minutes left in the half we were shooting something like 25% from the field yet the score was tied.

I was also really surprised by the zone defense all game, and that it was a 2-3. In the past few years we've used a 3-2 and a 1-3-1. It was a really "active" zone though - typically we think of zone defense as guys standing around, but in this case we had two or three guys swarming the ball handler while the other defenders looked to intercept weak passes out of the trap. It worked really well, and the turnovers and runouts that we created were one of the keys to us winning the game. A few times MSU was able to pass out of the trap and get open shots, but that's the tradeoff and in the end it paid off. I don't know that this scheme will work against every opponent - particularly one with better guards who can dribble out of the traps - but in this game it was perfect and it's why K is the best.

Duval had so many amazing plays, things only an elite talent can do. He had some mistakes too, which is what happens with freshmen, but his ability to get to the rim and to dish out assists was huge. Better decision-making will come, and hopefully he can improve his shot to at least a respectable degree.

Not much more to add about Grayson's performance, it was one for the ages. A few my friends watching with me noted that he "looked younger" this year, which I think was a combination of him being healthy, shedding some weight/bulk, and smiling more. :)

As far as areas of concern, free throws is probably at the top of the list as others have mentioned. We only really had one possession in the end of game in which MSU was looking to foul, and we were able to get it to Grayson and he held on to it. But we don't have the luxury of multiple guards who can hit free throws as we have had in the past. Something to look for moving forward if we find ourselves with a small lead near the end of games.

So happy with our team right now, and can't wait to see us continue to develop over the course of the season with Bagley added back into the mix!

[UrinalCake]

I especially like how it is done for privacy yet ESPN just dangles a camera over the “huddle”. Like, really espn?

I think it's more for the benefit of the fans in the stadium. Thinking about Gordon Hayward's injury, or the Ware guy from Louisville a few years ago - if there's a gruesome injury on the floor then shielding the player and fans from each other has some value. ESPN can decide on their own which camera feeds to play to the TV audience, and in the case of the Hayward injury I do remember they intentionally did not show replays or close-up shots of the injury.

[slower]

The last time I remember being this excited about an early-season result was when Kyrie demolished Kansas State.

If Kyrie stays healthy, THAT might have been the Duke team for the ages. One of them, at least.

[flyingdutchdevil]

The last time I remember being this excited about an early-season result was when Kyrie demolished Kansas State.

If Kyrie stays healthy, THAT might have been the Duke team for the ages. One of them, at least.

I ain't no doctor, but my thinks eyes recover faster than toes.

[Neals384]

I also think he'll be a bit like Thornton, but he already looks like he can handle the ball better and shoot better than Tyler did.

Tyler wasn't known as a shooter, but his two 3's to clinch a win against Kansas in Maui were clutch:
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Usmcy0Ob_Oc

[Neals384]

I thought limiting MSU's fast break opportunities was the key to the game. MSU's first 8 points all came on fast breaks. After the first media timeout, they only added 3 more fast break buckets the rest of the half. 2nd half started the same way - their first two buckets were fast breaks, but then none the rest of the game. Huge credit to K.

[rsvman]

About halfway through the second half, I thought to myself, "So THIS is what it's like to be a Syracuse fan."

Although I also noticed that MissedAgain State also stayed in zone pretty much the entire game.



I was very proud of our guys for the way they hung in there. With about 4 or 5 minutes left we looked gassed, momentum was swinging MSU's way, and I thought we were going to end up losing the game, but the players disagreed with me. :cool:

All-in-all, a great win.

[dukefan_828]

Well after reading through every page i must say you guys pretty much covered but i will throw in my all so important 0.02$ :):)

GOOD
-Grayson (obviously, so glad to see him healthy)

-Hustle Plays- we won all the important 50/50 plays so many steals javin all over the place!!

-Rebounding- +12 overall 25-11 advantage on the offensive glass almost completely w/o our 6'11 freak of nature who had 5 off rebounds in just 10 min!! Can't remember we had such a luxury in dominating the glass.

Duvall- I cringe everytime he pops a jumper but other than that he has been simply unhuman. 30 to 4 on TO, great at setting up others, scrappy d, exlposive, and can finish at the basket!! my friends we have a true PG:cool::cool:

Gary Trent- Far from his best night but i told my dad earlier in the fame he was going to be these years tyus stones. Boy did he make me look like a genius @ the 3:15 mark. Somebody call a doc this kids got ice in his veins!!!

Bench- we went deeper than i thought and they all did there jobs (especially javin) but it was also nice to get contributions from guys we weren't even sure where going to play. JGold did as called upon and efficiently. O'Connell brought great energy and suprisingly sound defensive awarness, making an impact w.o having to score. Vrank even stepped up solidly due to injury though he looked a bit out match defensively a few times

Last but not least... WENDELL!!!

Struggled a little bit early w getting blocked and not finishing at the rim, yet he remained poised and never went away from his fancy footwork in the paint and eventually paid off immensely. He was a stud on the boards and defensivley as well sneding back a bevy of sparty shots. The way he played defense w 4 fouls during that long stretch in 2nd was amazing, mature beyond his years! Dad mentioned he may be the first domininant real 2 way center since the land lord. i know ir;s early but if true i could settle w rhar!!

Dissapointment
Marquees; although i've been one of his biggest cheerleaders since he arrived and chalked last year up to nerves and injury he just doesn't look like he has improved much over the summer.
Although he may have still been ill last night i fear we may never see the beast we thought we where as a freshman last year, but i will continue to pray!! PLEASE NO CHASEJETER2.0 PLEASE NO CHASE JERTER2.0

THIS TEAM IS AWESOME!!

[MrPoon]

This may be addressed up thread but last night was interesting for its use of almost entirly zone.

Did it work? the case for yes is clear, Duke won. However, MSU shot 50.8%. However, zone is supposed to be a problem for rebounding and Duke was amazing on the boards. Also, while the shooting percentage is high, they MSU took 15 few shots and committed 17 turnovers many a result of Duke’s length in the zone. MSU did shoot 36% from three which is solid.

To me that is a strong “yes” it worked, however, it may require us (me) to rethink shooting percentage as an indicator of good defense.

[sagegrouse]

Tyler wasn't known as a shooter, but his two 3's to clinch a win against Kansas in Maui were clutch:
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Usmcy0Ob_Oc

Thornton's freshman year, we are having a listless performance against St. John's at Madison Sq. Garden. I mean, we sucked and ended up losing by 15. K, however, sent freshman Thornton onto the floor. He picked up five fouls in nine minutes and started one fight. He was not listless, to say the least, and Coach K put him in the starting lineup the next game in a win at Maryland.

I always thought Tyler was recruited for his toughness and leadership rather than for his basketball skills. I think Goldwire may be a different case.

[jv001]

Izzo was quoted before the game as saying that he thinks about his record against K every day, which is pretty amazing. (Wonder if he thinks about his record against UNCheat?).

Probably not. He knows they had to cheat to win any games against Michigan State or any other college team. GoDuke!

[kAzE]

Wow, 11 pages already! Looks like the DBR community is excited about the win, as we should be.

Grayson obviously was the difference maker in this one. I think we all knew he would be locked in, but nobody could have predicted 37 with 7 threes. What a performance. The hype was all for Bridges and Bagley, but Grayson proved that experience matters.

I'm making the prediction: Grayson Allen will be the national player of the year. You heard it here first. And I typically don't throw out end-of-season predictions willy-nilly, I really believe that he will do it if he stays upright. There's nobody in the country with Grayson's combo of talent and experience. He is an NBA-level player right now. I imagine teams are going to start scheming more to stop him, but this isn't 2015-16. We have plenty of other scoring options, so "stacking the box" against Grayson isn't going to work.

Duval was also extremely impressive. When was the last time any Duke player got 6 steals in a game? Or had this many assists over 3 consecutive games? What he's doing is nearly unprecedented. I don't even think he necessarily needs to develop a reliable shot to be one of the most impactful point guards in the nation, but it would still be nice if he could find a way to hit like 30% from 3 and 65% from the foul line.

I've said it before, and I'm standing by it: Bagley and Carter are the best front court in the country. Nobody has 2 big guys with the combo of size, quickness, and offensive skill of those two. Add in Javin, and we have three guys who are extremely active on the glass, swarm the ball on defense when it gets in the paint, block/alter shots, get steals, and run the floor in transition. The offensive rebounding is incredible with these guys. They make everything easier because of how many extra possessions they give us. We took 76 shots compared to MSU's 61, and 29 free throw attempts to MSU's 18. That's insane! Part of that was the turnover margin (we were +8), but most of it was us relentlessly crashing the glass. It wasn't just the big guys, either. Our guards did a great job, too.

I know it's bad form to get too optimistic this early in the year, but as long as we maintain health, I think this team is easily the favorite to win it all. Nobody has this much talent, and we are already playing at an extremely high level. It's hard not to gush about this team.

[jv001]

I also thought Vrank played solid minutes at a critical point in the game. He does more than take up space - defenses have to account for him.

Agree, Vrank communicates as well as anyone not named Grayson Allen. I'm not as concerned when he comes in as I am when Bolden comes in. GoDuke!

[uh_no]

This may be addressed up thread but last night was interesting for its use of almost entirly zone.

Did it work? the case for yes is clear, Duke won. However, MSU shot 50.8%. However, zone is supposed to be a problem for rebounding and Duke was amazing on the boards. Also, while the shooting percentage is high, they MSU took 15 few shots and committed 17 turnovers many a result of Duke’s length in the zone. MSU did shoot 36% from three which is solid.

To me that is a strong “yes” it worked, however, it may require us (me) to rethink shooting percentage as an indicator of good defense.

shooting % should never be used alone as an indicator of good defense.

As you point out, it led to a lot of boards somehow, it also led to a lot of steals. Possessions that end in no shot, or fewer shots are just as valuable as those that end with a missed shot....and yet such things don't show up in shooting percentage.

duke's defensive efficiency was a 104 last night...that's not awful, it's right in line where KP would have projected. It gets even better when you imagine bagley on the floor....so right now #35 defense is probably on the low end. Unfortunately we'll have to wait until ACC season to see how the full strength team fares against another formidable offense.

[jimsumner]

Tyler Thornton shot 38.5 percent on 3-pointers at Duke and had more than twice as many assists as turnovers (264 to 118). He played 2,590 minutes and averaged exactly one steal per game. Yes, he did foul a lot in large part because he was the designated fouler in late-game situations and frequently was the send-a-message-fouler.

I think those are good career goals for Goldwire, a player Duke snatched away from Eastern Kentucky at the last minute.

Yes, that Eastern Kentucky.

Yes, this is a pet peeve of mine.

Remember a couple of years ago when people were comparing Jack White to Kyle Singler based on highlight videos?

Let me give some concrete examples.

When Brian Zoubek was a high-school senior, Howard Garfinkel favorably compared him to Mike Gminski. Dick Vitale picked up on this and as he is wont to do, ran this comparison into the ground.

It was an absurd comparison. Zoubek never came close to having Gminski's mobility or skill set.

Yet, as he struggled through several seasons with significant foot problems, a good portion of the fan base lamented some variation of "I thought he was the next Gminski."

Or Greg Paulus, still a flashpoint for Duke fans. This is a guy who led the ACC in assists in 2006, made third-team All-ACC in 2008 and ended his career with 1,193 points, 468 assists, 310 steals and 210 3-pointers (39.8%).

Not a great career. But hardly negligible, either. Yet start a discussion on Paulus and it won't be long before we hear some reference to how he was supposed to be the next Hurley and he wasn't the next Hurley. Big disappointment.

Just as his classmate Josh McRoberts wasn't the next Christian Laettner. Ditto with Chris Burgess or Shavlik Randolph.

I could give other examples. I just think giving over-optimistic projections of a player early in a career sets the fan base up for negative comparisons down the road when they fail to meet those expectations.

I'm fine with Jordan Goldwire being the best Jordan Goldwire he can be without burdening him with unrealistic expectations.

[flyingdutchdevil]

Tyler Thornton shot 38.5 percent on 3-pointers at Duke and had more than twice as many assists as turnovers (264 to 118). He played 2,590 minutes and averaged exactly one steal per game. Yes, he did foul a lot in large part because he was the designated fouler in late-game situations and frequently was the send-a-message-fouler.

I think those are good career goals for Goldwire, a player Duke snatched away from Eastern Kentucky at the last minute.

Yes, that Eastern Kentucky.

Yes, this is a pet peeve of mine.

Remember a couple of years ago when people were comparing Jack White to Kyle Singler based on highlight videos?

Let me give some concrete examples.

When Brian Zoubek was a high-school senior, Howard Garfinkel favorably compared him to Mike Gminski. Dick Vitale picked up on this and as he is wont to do, ran this comparison into the ground.

It was an absurd comparison. Zoubek never came close to having Gminski's mobility or skill set.

Yet, as he struggled through several seasons with significant foot problems, a good portion of the fan base lamented some variation of "I thought he was the next Gminski."

Or Greg Paulus, still a flashpoint for Duke fans. This is a guy who led the ACC in assists in 2006, made third-team All-ACC in 2008 and ended his career with 1,193 points, 468 assists, 310 steals and 210 3-pointers (39.8%).

Not a great career. But hardly negligible, either. Yet start a discussion on Paulus and it won't be long before we hear some reference to how he was supposed to be the next Hurley and he wasn't the next Hurley. Big disappointment.

Just as his classmate Josh McRoberts wasn't the next Christian Laettner. Ditto with Chris Burgess or Shavlik Randolph.

I could give other examples. I just think giving over-optimistic projections of a player early in a career sets the fan base up for negative comparisons down the road when they fail to meet those expectations.

I'm fine with Jordan Goldwire being the best Jordan Goldwire he can be without burdening him with unrealistic expectations.

I read that Goldwire is the next Frank Mason. Can we stick with this analogy? :p

[evrim]

This is interesting. I was pretty sure Wendell didn't just launch an elbow at some guy's face on purpose. This picture (https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DOo_N7cX4AEM3P9.jpg:large) shows a pretty good view of what I think he was really doing, which was trying to free himself up from someone who was grabbing him.

I thought their Carter was doing a lot of dirty stuff. They showed couple seconds before the incident and it was a wrestling match. Also at one point I saw him stomp on our Carter's foot on purpose multiple times while Carter was at the top of the key. Also that elbow definitely was not that hard but he stayed on the ground like he was punched in the face. Unfortunately they always catch retaliation.

[Kedsy]

I also think he'll be a bit like Thornton, but he already looks like he can handle the ball better and shoot better than Tyler did.

Tyler Thornton shot 38.5% from three for his career and 45.0% from three as a senior. In three games so far, Jordan G is shooting 16.7% overall and 33.3% from three-land. So I don't think Jordan has shown he's a better shooter than Tyler quite yet.


Forget precisely which year, but there was one year where [Tyler Thornton] was our starting point guard and, over the last ten games of the seasons, he had more fouls than points+assists. Think about that for a minute.

I don't think we have to spend that minute, because this never happened. Tyler started the last ten games of 2012, and had 31 fouls vs. 71 points+assists. He started the last ten games of 2014, and had 32 fouls vs. 57 points+assists. He didn't start in 2011 or 2013.

Oh, and by the way, coming into last night's game, Jordan Goldwire had more fouls (5) than points+assists (4). Thankfully, since he hit his first (and only) basket of the season last night and didn't foul, he's up to 5 vs. 8.

[devilsadvocate85]

Terrible teddy didn't see it that way:mad:. But, then again, terrible teddy can see things from 30-40 feet away that aren't his calls.

I think they did see it that way and that was the reason it was a contact technical rather than a flagrant. They can't call anything on the MSU player unless he committed a flagrant (shirt pulling is not), so they gave Wendell the benefit of the doubt. Just my take.

[jv001]

Tyler Thornton shot 38.5% from three for his career and 45.0% from three as a senior. In three games so far, Jordan G is shooting 16.7% overall and 33.3% from three-land. So I don't think Jordan has shown he's a better shooter than Tyler quite yet.



I don't think we have to spend that minute, because this never happened. Tyler started the last ten games of 2012, and had 31 fouls vs. 71 points+assists. He started the last ten games of 2014, and had 32 fouls vs. 57 points+assists. He didn't start in 2011 or 2013.

Oh, and by the way, coming into last night's game, Jordan Goldwire had more fouls (5) than points+assists (4). Thankfully, since he hit his first (and only) basket of the season last night and didn't foul, he's up to 5 vs. 8.

I'm in agreement with Mr. Sumner in that praising less recruited freshman so early in their careers to former Duke players is setting not only one's self up to be called out but it also leads to negative comments on the new player. I'm not calling out Kedsy because what was posted is the truth and it's not his fault that some posters are going way overboard on the comparisons of players. Let's let it play out and see just how good Goldwire is going to be. That seems to be fair to Goldwire. GoDuke!

[DukieInBrasil]

This may be addressed up thread but last night was interesting for its use of almost entirly zone.

Did it work? the case for yes is clear, Duke won. However, MSU shot 50.8%. However, zone is supposed to be a problem for rebounding and Duke was amazing on the boards. Also, while the shooting percentage is high, they MSU took 15 few shots and committed 17 turnovers many a result of Duke’s length in the zone. MSU did shoot 36% from three which is solid.

To me that is a strong “yes” it worked, however, it may require us (me) to rethink shooting percentage as an indicator of good defense.

what happens if you add 17 turnovers to the FGAs as 17 extra FGAs? since those opportunities were denied by the steal, i think that's an effective way to look at what the zone did to their offense.

[DukieInKansas]

I think they did see it that way and that was the reason it was a contact technical rather than a flagrant. They can't call anything on the MSU player unless he committed a flagrant (shirt pulling is not), so they gave Wendell the benefit of the doubt. Just my take.

I really wanted a tv angle from the bench side on that play - not because I disagreed with the refs but I wanted the commentators to see what might have cause his arm to go back. It didn't look like a natural motion to me. Agree that a foul was committed but was glad it wasn't a Flagrant 1 or 2. Although the outcome was the same as a Flagrant 1, I believe - 2 shots and the ball.

[CDu]

Tyler wasn't known as a shooter, but his two 3's to clinch a win against Kansas in Maui were clutch:
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Usmcy0Ob_Oc

Thornton actually was a 38.5% 3pt shooter in college. He shot 39.2% as a junior and 45% as a senior.

Thornton wasn’t much of a scorer or playmaker, but the one thing he did well on offense was shoot. If Goldwire is anywhere near as good a shooter as Thornton, he will be a useful role player indeed.

[uh_no]

I think they did see it that way and that was the reason it was a contact technical rather than a flagrant. They can't call anything on the MSU player unless he committed a flagrant (shirt pulling is not), so they gave Wendell the benefit of the doubt. Just my take.

if seen, grabbing of the jersey away from that ball would 100% be a foul.

With the ball down the court like that, it could certainly be considered flagrant.

I didn't see the grab on any of the replays shown on TV, so I wouldn't be surprised if the refs missed it either. If they had seen it, I would have bet we would have seen a double technical.

[Olympic Fan]

Just a few comments about Tyler ...

He was not a three-star recruit. He was a solid four-star -- the Player of the Year in the DC area over such celebrated point guards as Kendall Marshall.

He average 38.5 percent from 3 for his career (on 231 3-point attempts)

He finished with 264 assists/118 turnovers and he had 139 steals.

His career 3-point percentage is just outside the Duke top 10. His career assist to turnover ratio is the fifth best in Duke history.

Not a great player, but a very good one -- especially since K prized his defensive prowess.

[DukieTiger]

Man, what a game. I’ve tried to track the thread, so forgive me for any duplicate thoughts or topics.

I’m shocked that Goldwire and AOC got in the game as much as they did. I thought they acquitted themselves reasonably well. To me, that shows that Duke has options they are willing to use should foul trouble or injuries strike.

I think we confirmed in this game that Bolden and Carter should not get a ton of time together. Rotations noticeably lagged when Duke has to play two true bigs. This underscores the value of Javin, who had an awesome game. He needs to learn to stay out of foul trouble, but is a real contributor this year for Duke.

Duke OWNED the boards. The rebound margin was closed when Duke went small and played 4 guards- something they mainly did due to foul trouble. This team passes a major test to show that rebounding will be a real force this year.

Really proud of Carter, who got knocked on his butt for the first 10 minutes of this game. Then he literally got knocked on his butt by Ward (no-call), and showed some real strength to rebound, score and contest shots inside. Would like to see more of him taking a big guy like Ward away from the basket some. Show off that skill set.

Duval- wow. His speed combined with Javin’s make me hope Duke never comes out of that zone. Miles Bridges was really good in this game, but a major reason why he wasn’t more dominant is that Duke made him really uncomfortable by trapping and/or poking at the ball, forcing him into a bunch of turnovers. Duval was a huge part of that.

Offensively, the freshmen had to learn to finish around elite rim protection and size. I think you saw the progression in-game though, particularly with Carter and Duval. Wendell got position and Trey got into the lane at will, but they finished plays in the 2nd half. Invaluable experience for the second week of their college career.

All in all, great night for Duke!

[Tripping William]

Really, really enjoyed watching that. Very encouraging.

My two nit-picky things:

(1) Free-throw shooting, as others have mentioned. We'll inevitably be in a close game at some point.

(2) Blowing a ten-point lead twice (once in the first half, and once in the second). Credit Sparty for fighting back (I'd expect no less), but that still caught my eye.

[CDu]

Just a few comments about Tyler ...

He was not a three-star recruit. He was a solid four-star -- the Player of the Year in the DC area over such celebrated point guards as Kendall Marshall.

He average 38.5 percent from 3 for his career (on 231 3-point attempts)

He finished with 264 assists/118 turnovers and he had 139 steals.

His career 3-point percentage is just outside the Duke top 10. His career assist to turnover ratio is the fifth best in Duke history.

Not a great player, but a very good one -- especially since K prized his defensive prowess.

Thornton’s biggest issue was that he had PG size, but PF athleticism. He was an extremely heady player, but just wasn’t skilled/athletic enough to play PG at the ACC level. Which is why he spent most of his time at Duke offball. His assist/turnover ratio is an example of the limitation of that stat, as he basically played it safe exclusively when passing (just moving the ball around the perimeter) and didn’t try to attack off the dribble.

He was an extremely good team defender, but exploitable in man-to-man individually. He made himself into an extremely good spotup shooter, too, which was critical to allow him to stay on the floor. He is an example of a kid who - despite real physical limitations - figured out his role and did it as well as he could. Duke just couldn’t find our PG during his tenure, which emphasized his limitations.

[Jeffrey]

I'm making the prediction: Grayson Allen will be the national player of the year. You heard it here first. And I typically don't throw out end-of-season predictions willy-nilly, I really believe that he will do it if he stays upright. There's nobody in the country with Grayson's combo of talent and experience. He is an NBA-level player right now. I imagine teams are going to start scheming more to stop him, but this isn't 2015-16. We have plenty of other scoring options, so "stacking the box" against Grayson isn't going to work.


How much would you like to wager?

[WillJ]

Tyler Thornton shot 38.5% from three for his career and 45.0% from three as a senior. In three games so far, Jordan G is shooting 16.7% overall and 33.3% from three-land. So I don't think Jordan has shown he's a better shooter than Tyler quite yet.



I don't think we have to spend that minute, because this never happened. Tyler started the last ten games of 2012, and had 31 fouls vs. 71 points+assists. He started the last ten games of 2014, and had 32 fouls vs. 57 points+assists. He didn't start in 2011 or 2013.

Oh, and by the way, coming into last night's game, Jordan Goldwire had more fouls (5) than points+assists (4). Thankfully, since he hit his first (and only) basket of the season last night and didn't foul, he's up to 5 vs. 8.

Perhaps like you did, I went and checked the box scores from https://www.sports-reference.com/cbb/boxscores/2014-03-21-duke.html. Over the last ten regular season games of the 2013-2014 season, I think all of which Tyler started, he had 28 assists, 26 points, 9 turnovers and 34 fouls. So you are correct - my quote on Fouls>Assists + Points was a misrecollection on my part, as he had only had more fouls than points *or* assists. He was, however, terrible, particularly against UNC, where in two games his combined box score was 1 assist, 0 points, 1 turnover and 9 fouls. He got better against Mercer, with 3 assists, 6 points , 1 point and 2 fouls. I don't think it's surprising we exited the tourney early that tournament. Tyler was a fine backup point guard but we could not win with him playing heavy minutes.

I only saw Goldwire play last night, and maybe that game will turn out to be an anomaly. I hope not.

[Jeffrey]

Please don't rattle his cage. Please.

What cage?

[Eternal Outlaw]

I really wanted a tv angle from the bench side on that play - not because I disagreed with the refs but I wanted the commentators to see what might have cause his arm to go back. It didn't look like a natural motion to me. Agree that a foul was committed but was glad it wasn't a Flagrant 1 or 2. Although the outcome was the same as a Flagrant 1, I believe - 2 shots and the ball.



if seen, grabbing of the jersey away from that ball would 100% be a foul.

With the ball down the court like that, it could certainly be considered flagrant.

I didn't see the grab on any of the replays shown on TV, so I wouldn't be surprised if the refs missed it either. If they had seen it, I would have bet we would have seen a double technical.

I saw it live as live it was shown from the side angle and for whatever reason my eyes were drawn to the back end of the play. I was pretty infuriated that ESPN had the angle and refused to show it. Makes me wonder if refs saw it in their review. Someone in the ESPN truck was certainly trying to push a narrative of a dirty Duke play and hiding the angle that showed the hold

1:38:12 is the live shot on the ESPN replay that they refused to show again

[Eternal Outlaw]

Does any other coach have more wins against Izzo? He's 546-221.

Izzo started at MSU in 1995. Only 10 years against Keady at Purdue, 13 years against Painter at Purdue, 13 years against Thad Motta at OSU, 13 years against Bo Ryan at Wiscy, 10 years against Beilein at UM, 9 years against Bruce Webber at Illinois. With unbalanced scheduling and so many years without a Big 10 tournament, I doubt any of them rang up 11 wins against Izzo.


Think Bo Ryan ended up 16-12 vs Izzo

[Troublemaker]

It was a really "active" zone though - typically we think of zone defense as guys standing around, but in this case we had two or three guys swarming the ball handler while the other defenders looked to intercept weak passes out of the trap. It worked really well, and the turnovers and runouts that we created were one of the keys to us winning the game.

Yeah, it's a Syracuse-style zone (unsurprisingly since Coach learned it from Boeheim) that tries to force turnovers. Over the past decade, Syracuse has consistently been very strong in defensive turnover percentage.

While I wouldn't expect Duke to become a zone-first team or anything, it's nice to know that it's there in the arsenal, that Coach will use it, and that with our length the zone will probably be effective against most teams.

[Troublemaker]

Perhaps like you did, I went and checked the box scores from https://www.sports-reference.com/cbb/boxscores/2014-03-21-duke.html. Over the last ten regular season games of the 2013-2014 season, I think all of which Tyler started, he had 28 assists, 26 points, 9 turnovers and 34 fouls. So you are correct - my quote on Fouls>Assists + Points was a misrecollection on my part, as he had only had more fouls than points *or* assists. He was, however, terrible, particularly against UNC, where in two games his combined box score was 1 assist, 0 points, 1 turnover and 9 fouls. He got better against Mercer, with 3 assists, 6 points , 1 point and 2 fouls. I don't think it's surprising we exited the tourney early that tournament. Tyler was a fine backup point guard but we could not win with him playing heavy minutes.


That's casting waaaaaay too much blame on a role player for that team's poor season. 2013-14 was basically Duke finally paying the piper for several years in a row of major recruiting misses on big men. We didn't have the size we needed to contend, especially with freedom of movement being initiated and guards being unable to handcheck.

My, how times have changed in recruiting. This current team has size in abundance obviously.

[MChambers]

Yeah, it's a Syracuse-style zone (unsurprisingly since Coach learned it from Boeheim) that tries to force turnovers. Over the past decade, Syracuse has consistently been very strong in defensive turnover percentage.

While I wouldn't expect Duke to become a zone-first team or anything, it's nice to know that it's there in the arsenal, that Coach will use it, and that with our length the zone will probably be effective against most teams.

Really? I think that at least for this year, Duke may be zone first. Never thought I'd say that. Now, I expect for the next few opponents, Coach K will open with man-to-man, but we'll see how it works. Ideally, Duke could be a really good man-to-man team, and use the zone as needed, but, as we've discussed at length on this board, Duke's man defense hasn't been that great in recent years, with a few exceptions. If Goldwire continues to shine (and screws up everyone's minutes predictions), maybe the man defense will be better this year.

[devildeac]

if seen, grabbing of the jersey away from that ball would 100% be a foul.

With the ball down the court like that, it could certainly be considered flagrant.

I didn't see the grab on any of the replays shown on TV, so I wouldn't be surprised if the refs missed it either. If they had seen it, I would have bet we would have seen a double technical.

Thank you. I saw the replays and the jersey grab looked pretty clear.

[BandAlum83]

This is interesting. I was pretty sure Wendell didn't just launch an elbow at some guy's face on purpose. This picture (https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DOo_N7cX4AEM3P9.jpg:large) shows a pretty good view of what I think he was really doing, which was trying to free himself up from someone who was grabbing him.

It also looked like their Carter was doing the old foot under the foot tripping technique that was so popular in middle school. You know the technique: put your foot under the other guy's foot as the heel is rising up in a natural walking motion. Gently (on not-so-gently) push the top portion of your foot upwards into the other guy's heel to force him to lose balance.

[Kedsy]

Perhaps like you did, I went and checked the box scores from https://www.sports-reference.com/cbb/boxscores/2014-03-21-duke.html. Over the last ten regular season games of the 2013-2014 season, I think all of which Tyler started, he had 28 assists, 26 points, 9 turnovers and 34 fouls. So you are correct - my quote on Fouls>Assists + Points was a misrecollection on my part, as he had only had more fouls than points *or* assists. He was, however, terrible, particularly against UNC, where in two games his combined box score was 1 assist, 0 points, 1 turnover and 9 fouls. He got better against Mercer, with 3 assists, 6 points , 1 point and 2 fouls. I don't think it's surprising we exited the tourney early that tournament. Tyler was a fine backup point guard but we could not win with him playing heavy minutes.

I only saw Goldwire play last night, and maybe that game will turn out to be an anomaly. I hope not.

By my count, he had 29 points in those ten 2014 games (rather than 26), but I'm not going back to check which of us is right. I agree with you that in an ideal world Tyler Thornton was miscast as a starting Duke PG. Though I'd also point out that when Tyler started for Duke, the team was 39-14 (73.6%) which is worse than how the team did during his career when he didn't start (76-13; 85.4%), but not so much worse that I'd say "we could not win" with him. Overall, I'd say he was better cast as a bench player helpful for his energetic defense and opportunistic shooting.

I know we've only seen 31 minutes of Jordan Goldwire in games that count, but he strikes me also as best cast as a helpful bench player, who can play some energetic defense and give us some opportunistic shooting. I would note that he was ranked significantly worse than Tyler Thornton coming out of high school, and that a Tyler-Thornton-like career is likely Jordan's ceiling (and unlikely to happen, though obviously we'll see about that). If Jordan started for Duke, I suspect we'd see a lot of the same limitations we saw with Tyler.

I don't think it suits the conversation to call either player "terrible" or say "we could not win with him playing heavy minutes." Both players appear to do the best they can with limited (compared to the quality player we usually see starting for Duke) physical gifts. They both have seemed to play hard and represent Duke University in a way that can make us proud.

In other words, let's not get inordinately down on Tyler Thornton and let's not get inordinately enthusiastic about Jordan Goldwire.

[WHOneedsSOX]

Hoping for a lot of Duke blowouts this year. I'd prefer Allen and Bagley not play 37-40 minutes a game this season. Especially not Bagley who's a freshman. I know it was absolutely necessary for Allen to play 40 to win last night but that's not a good long term formula obviously. Save the legs for March/April.

[Kedsy]

If Goldwire continues to shine (and screws up everyone's minutes predictions), maybe the man defense will be better this year.

You think Jordan G is a better one-on-one defender than Trevon?

[BandAlum83]

Yeah, I'm very surprised that Jordan G played 11 minutes in a competitive game. And I'm shocked that he and Trevon were on the court at the same time, even for a few minutes

Of note is that when they were both on the court at the same time, J Gold was playing the point.

[Kedsy]

Hoping for a lot of Duke blowouts this year. I'd prefer Allen and Bagley not play 37-40 minutes a game this season. Especially not Bagley who's a freshman. I know it was absolutely necessary for Allen to play 40 to win last night but that's not a good long term formula obviously. Save the legs for March/April.

There it is. Who had November 15 in the pool?

[MChambers]

You think Jordan G is a better one-on-one defender than Trevon?

But I think man-to-man is more tiring, and requires a bit more perimeter depth. That's all I was saying. (I could say that I think Jordan will be better than Tommy Amaker or Wojo, just to see how Mr. Sumner reacts, but that would be wrong.)

[Matches]

There it is. Who had November 15 in the pool?

If you go all in with sarcasm now, you will run out of zingers by March. Conserve some energy, man! :D

[BandAlum83]

Lighten up, Francis.

My tagline is a take on the "If God is not a..." BS that Hole fans like to use. No offense intended - except to Hole fans, of course.

Who is this Francis fella to whom you refer?

yada yada yada, I get it ...Carolina blue sky, etc. It still doesn't sit well with me. That's all.

[WHOneedsSOX]

There it is. Who had November 15 in the pool?

What do you mean? Was there a pool about someone complaining about the minutes players play? I don't follow this site too much except for game days and sometimes the day after games. Didn't know it was frowned upon to bring it up.

[MChambers]

There it is. Who had November 15 in the pool?
I must be more promiscuous, apparently, so would appreciate it someone could spork Kedsy.

[WHOneedsSOX]

Yeah, I'm very surprised that Jordan G played 11 minutes in a competitive game. And I'm shocked that he and Trevon were on the court at the same time, even for a few minutes.


Probably because Trent had 2 fouls in the first half, Bagley was out, and Carter/Bolden looked really ineffective up to that point.

[BandAlum83]

No worries here, boss. I was just trying to explain that it's strictly a humorous twist on an irritating saying. I come in peace. :p

As do I!

-St Francis of Assisi.


Lord, make me an instrument of thy peace. Where these is hatred, let me sow love.

Lord, grant that I might not so much seek to be loved as to love.

Where there is injury let me sow pardon.

[BandAlum83]

Maybe they'll add an "umbrella wall."

- Chillin

Speaking of dangling, that drone cam during live-play was making me dizzy and nauseous as it moved in and out with changing vantage points.

ESPN in-game director: Cut the crap! We don't need creativity. We want to see the game on our HD big screen without getting motion sickness. I shouldn't need Dramamine to watch a ball game in my frickin media room!

[Troublemaker]

Really? I think that at least for this year, Duke may be zone first. Never thought I'd say that. Now, I expect for the next few opponents, Coach K will open with man-to-man, but we'll see how it works. Ideally, Duke could be a really good man-to-man team, and use the zone as needed, but, as we've discussed at length on this board, Duke's man defense hasn't been that great in recent years, with a few exceptions. If Goldwire continues to shine (and screws up everyone's minutes predictions), maybe the man defense will be better this year.

I'm not ready to ignore 35+ years of Coach K's tendencies just because he played zone in one game. Watch the postgame presser. Coach basically said he used the zone out of concern for foul trouble, especially since this was the freshmen's first big game and a new experience for them; he was also probably thinking of the foulfest that was last season's Champions Classic game against Kansas. Most likely, as the team continues to gain experience, Duke will be man-first but use the zone more liberally than ever since we have all this length and we don't have much guard depth.

As for your last sentence, I don't think Goldwire will play much of a role in whether the man defense is good. I mean, he's going to play 5 mpg, right? It's really about the athleticism and length of the top 7 guys. Basically the reason why zone can be played well by this team is the same reason man can be played well.

[jgehtland]

I saw it live as live it was shown from the side angle and for whatever reason my eyes were drawn to the back end of the play. I was pretty infuriated that ESPN had the angle and refused to show it. Makes me wonder if refs saw it in their review. Someone in the ESPN truck was certainly trying to push a narrative of a dirty Duke play and hiding the angle that showed the hold

1:38:12 is the live shot on the ESPN replay that they refused to show again

7801

[BandAlum83]

I thought limiting MSU's fast break opportunities was the key to the game. MSU's first 8 points all came on fast breaks. After the first media timeout, they only added 3 more fast break buckets the rest of the half. 2nd half started the same way - their first two buckets were fast breaks, but then none the rest of the game. Huge credit to K.

Definitely agreed, but my goodness! Talk about basketball IQ. this team was amazing to watch real-time as I watched them climb the steepest of learning curves in front of my eyes!

This wasn't a case of sitting with them in the days to come, watching tape, running reps in practice. This was amazing 1st year ballers who took direction, learned on the fly, adjusted, and dominated in the end. Wendell was a different player in the last 10 minutes than he was in the first! Same thing with Duval. Adapting, adjusting, finding ways to work. Even Trent..calm, steady, workman-like.. He is like the terminator! Relentless in pursuit.

I wonder if this will ever look like a freshman team? I was there at the beginning of Ks time. I remember the awesome but inconsistent and sometimes bone headedness of Johnny Dawkins play his Freshman year.

This crop looks like season veterans already. I am totally on this bandwagon....but no tattoos!