The World reacts to decades of sexual predators

[JasonEvans]

I am stunned at this news. (http://deadline.com/2017/11/kevin-spacey-dropped-all-in-the-money-in-the-world-christopher-plummer-ridley-scott-j-paul-getty-1202204437/)

Ridley Scott's "All The Money In The World" was done, edited, and ready for release. The film has some decent award buzz around it. But, one of the key supporting actors in it is Kevin Spacey. He plays billionare J Paul Getty, who refused to pay a ransom when his grandson was kidnapped. Well, with all the sexual assault stuff coming out daily about Kevin Spacey, Scott got together with Sony Pictures and star Mark Whalberg and they decided to re-shoot every scene Spacey is in. They expect the film will still be able to make its Dec 22nd release date. Amazing...


In a unified front, the cast and crew of the film, and Sony Pictures, unanimously agreed to reshoot all of Spacey’s scenes, with Mark Wahlberg and Michelle Williams’ cooperation part of the mix. This comes on the heels of the decision to pull the film from the prestige closing night slot of the AFI Festival. That decision resulted after a weekend of back and forth, with Scott and Friedkin in particular incensed that the sordid allegations against Spacey might doom a film that Scott dropped everything to direct, and on which so many people worked hard and did not deserve to see the resulting film hobbled in the marketplace with the taint of scandal.

-Jason "I hope Kevin Spacey has saved his money cause I doubt he will ever work in Hollywood again" Evans

[PackMan97]

I am stunned at this news. (http://deadline.com/2017/11/kevin-spacey-dropped-all-in-the-money-in-the-world-christopher-plummer-ridley-scott-j-paul-getty-1202204437/)

Ridley Scott's "All The Money In The World" was done, edited, and ready for release. The film has some decent award buzz around it. But, one of the key supporting actors in it is Kevin Spacey. He plays billionare J Paul Getty, who refused to pay a ransom when his grandson was kidnapped. Well, with all the sexual assault stuff coming out daily about Kevin Spacey, Scott got together with Sony Pictures and star Mark Whalberg and they decided to re-shoot every scene Spacey is in. They expect the film will still be able to make its Dec 22nd release date. Amazing...

Awesome that Sony and Marky Mark were able to do that.

This reminds me of a sci-fi book I read a decade or two ago where a company went through all the old movies and digitally removed all the cigarettes and smoke. I don't remember why, but thinking that would be a pretty boring job.

[CameronBornAndBred]

Reminiscent of reshooting 5 weeks worth of filming on Back to the Future to replace all of Eric Stolz's scenes with Michael J. Fox.

[PackMan97]

Reminiscent of reshooting 5 weeks worth of filming on Back to the Future to replace all of Eric Stolz's scenes with Michael J. Fox.

I miss the TV show Fringe, one of their episodes set on the "other" earth, had a Back to the Future marquee with Stolz headlining. :)

[Jeffrey]

Ridley Scott's "All The Money In The World" was done, edited, and ready for release.

I'm not sure I understand the need when it was already a done deal. I still love "American Beauty" and wonder why release date is considered such a critical issue. I suspect some would have gone to see this film solely because it probably would have been Spacey's last major film. I doubt it's going to sell much better due to the change.

[Jeffrey]

Reminiscent of reshooting 5 weeks worth of filming on Back to the Future to replace all of Eric Stolz's scenes with Michael J. Fox.

They really improved the movie with that change. Fox is much better at comedy and was a far bigger 80's star.

[JasonEvans]

I'm not sure I understand the need when it was already a done deal. I still love "American Beauty" and wonder why release date is considered such a critical issue. I suspect some would have gone to see this film solely because it probably would have been Spacey's last major film. I doubt it's going to sell much better due to the change.

Release date is critical because it must play in theaters in NY or LA before Dec 31 to qualify for Oscars and other awards. This film has award hopes so getting it in theaters before the end of the year is a huge, huge deal. Given the current climate, there is a zero percent chance that a film featuring Spacey (or produced by Weinstein or starring Jeremy Piven and so on and so on) would be able to win over enough voters to win or even contend for major awards. There are simply too many people fed up with Hollywood's decades of acceptance of sexual predators who will not support any project associated with these folks. Leaving Spacey in the film would 100% doom it's award chances.

As for boxoffice, I suspect that the number of folks who would say, "Awww, I want to see that sexual predator's last film!" is pretty small compared to the number who say, "I'm not going to contribute one cent to anything connected to that horrible man."

--Jason "the big question right now is House of Cards... I suspect Netflix may just cancel season 6 altogether and write off the tens of millions invested in shooting it thus far" Evans

[JasonEvans]

I'm making this a collector thread for all the Hollywood sexual predator stuff...

It appears Louis CK will be next. Apparently, there is going to be a NY Times investigation into Louis CK released in the next 24 hours. He has cancelled a planned appearance on Colbert tonight and his new film, "I Love You, Daddy," is in real danger of not being released. It was supposed to premiere this week in New York.

-Jason "at this point, Mel Gibson would be more welcome in an Orthodox synagogue than Kevin Spacey is on a movie or TV set" Evans

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

The Louis CK information is disappointing. I mean, obviously all this stuff is disappointing, but he seemed like a pretty grounded fellow.

I feel as though whatever good is coming out of all this festering mess coming to light is immediately negated by how depressing it is to realize how very deep all this runs.

Utterly disgusting.

[Doria]

As for House of Cards, I’m willing to bet that they will write off Spacey in an eventual season six. With the events of the last season, they have a pretty natural narrative line around Claire, anyway.

[Jeffrey]

As for boxoffice, I suspect that the number of folks who would say, "Awww, I want to see that sexual predator's last film!" is pretty small compared to the number who say, "I'm not going to contribute one cent to anything connected to that horrible man."


You probably also thought Trump had lost the election when the Billy Bush tape was released.

[Jeffrey]

As for House of Cards, I’m willing to bet that they will write off Spacey in an eventual season six. With the events of the last season, they have a pretty natural narrative line around Claire, anyway.

I agree, there's money to be made. I also suspect the first five seasons will continue to sell and be watched.

[PackMan97]

You probably also thought Trump had lost the election when the Billy Bush tape was released.

Not the quite same...it's a bit like going to see the last Weinstein film or the last Spacey film, or any of the other 20-30 movies in general release. It's not as if we are stuck with only going to a Spacey or a Weinstein production. :mad:

[left_hook_lacey]

Release date is critical because it must play in theaters in NY or LA before Dec 31 to qualify for Oscars and other awards. This film has award hopes so getting it in theaters before the end of the year is a huge, huge deal. Given the current climate, there is a zero percent chance that a film featuring Spacey (or produced by Weinstein or starring Jeremy Piven and so on and so on) would be able to win over enough voters to win or even contend for major awards. There are simply too many people fed up with Hollywood's decades of acceptance of sexual predators who will not support any project associated with these folks. Leaving Spacey in the film would 100% doom it's award chances.

As for boxoffice, I suspect that the number of folks who would say, "Awww, I want to see that sexual predator's last film!" is pretty small compared to the number who say, "I'm not going to contribute one cent to anything connected to that horrible man."

--Jason "the big question right now is House of Cards... I suspect Netflix may just cancel season 6 altogether and write off the tens of millions invested in shooting it thus far" Evans


I think that casual movie goer wouldn't really care about the producers as much as they would about the actors since you're staring at their face for two hours. The producers that have been accused are behind the scenes and faceless for the most part. If this scandal had never happened, I would've never been able to pick Harvy W. out of a police lineup if my life depended on it. The actors are so front and center that people would be openly disgusted to see their face on the commercials for a movie, or on a movie poster. "No, I'm not going to see that, that guys a horrible person."

I think very few people are going through the movie listings this weekend to check the production info for all of the movies that are out to see if any of the named suspects had anything to do with the movie or not, and then picking their movie based on that.

As for House of Cards, I thought I read somewhere that they were planning to kill off Spacey's character? Maybe I'm getting sexual my assault scandals mixed up. There's so many out there right now.

[Jeffrey]

Not the quite same...it's a bit like going to see the last Weinstein film or the last Spacey film, or any of the other 20-30 movies in general release. It's not as if we are stuck with only going to a Spacey or a Weinstein production. :mad:

I'm betting, in short order, it will be about the actor, not the person. IMO, Spacey was a very good actor. American Beauty was a great film and I suspect people will continue to watch it. I also suspect people will continue to watch House of Cards.

[left_hook_lacey]

Another thought crossed my mind about the Weinstein scandal. When people get accused of something like this, other people distance themselves from that person and their entire body of work as much as possible. For example, when the Cosby story came out, networks canceled running the reruns of the show, some places he had appearances booked cancel his booking, etc.

What happens to all the movies and/or TV that have been made by the Weinstein company over the years? I don't know how many there are, but it seems like a lot, and some of them are classics. Will people ever show them again on TV?

[PackMan97]

What happens to all the movies and/or TV that have been made by the Weinstein company over the years? I don't know how many there are, but it seems like a lot, and some of them are classics. Will people ever show them again on TV?

America has a short memory, unless we don't. I can't figure out a rhyme or reason why some things happen...for example I was floored Roman Polanski won Best Director for The Pianist in the early 2000's.

I would guess the thought that as an actor it makes a difference. Movies and TV are all about suspension of disbelief. I don't know or care who the producers are on a movie and might only be marginally aware of the director, but gnererally not. I think about the actor every time they appear in a scene.

[JasonEvans]

when the Cosby story came out, networks canceled running the reruns of the show, some places he had appearances booked cancel his booking, etc.

Yeah, that's definitely why Ghost Dad and Leonard Part 6 are not in regular HBO rotation right now ;)


What happens to all the movies and/or TV that have been made by the Weinstein company over the years? I don't know how many there are, but it seems like a lot, and some of them are classics. Will people ever show them again on TV?

That is a tougher one. As mentioned upthread, there isn't nearly as much audience awareness of production company/executive as there is of actors in a film. But, there's also the question of how much of a role a production company and executive play in the art/craft of a film. Sure, there are many ways they impact the product, but I suspect Django Unchained, Silver Linings Playbook, The King's Speech, Good Will Hunting, Scary Movie, No Country for Old Men, Pulp Fiction, The Crying Game and scores of other Weinstein/Miramx films would still have been remarkable works of art without his direct involvement.

[left_hook_lacey]

Yeah, that's definitely why Ghost Dad and Leonard Part 6 are not in regular HBO rotation right now ;)



That is a tougher one. As mentioned upthread, there isn't nearly as much audience awareness of production company/executive as there is of actors in a film. But, there's also the question of how much of a role a production company and executive play in the art/craft of a film. Sure, there are many ways they impact the product, but I suspect Django Unchained, Silver Linings Playbook, The King's Speech, Good Will Hunting, Scary Movie, No Country for Old Men, Pulp Fiction, The Crying Game and scores of other Weinstein/Miramx films would still have been remarkable works of art without his direct involvement.

Hey hey hey! Ghost Dad is an American treasure!!!

And speaking of "Hey Hey Hey", I wonder if Fat Albert has also been pulled.

[CameronBornAndBred]

Hey hey hey! Ghost Dad is an American treasure!!!

And speaking of "Hey Hey Hey", I wonder if Fat Albert has also been pulled.

Faster than a pudding pop melts in the summer.

[Billy Dat]

The Louis CK information is disappointing. I mean, obviously all this stuff is disappointing, but he seemed like a pretty grounded fellow.

I feel as though whatever good is coming out of all this festering mess coming to light is immediately negated by how depressing it is to realize how very deep all this runs.

Utterly disgusting.

There's been talk about Louie for a while. This article was out in the summer, way before any of the Weinstein stuff
https://www.yahoo.com/lifestyle/6-disturbing-details-louis-c-041530814.html

It is really interesting to watch these scandals unfold and wonder what creates a tipping point moment?

In regards to Kevin Spacey, who is accused of sexually harassing/molesting both grown and underage men...I think about the "hiding in plain sight" tradition of faculty/student sexual peccadilloes that happen at schools, but seem more common at exclusive private schools, especially boarding schools. I recall the play/movie, "The History Boys" - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_History_Boys_(film) - which has, as a running theme - the sexual harassment of male students by their teachers and sexual pursuit of teacher by student and vice versa. The movie doesn't treat these situations as scandalous...more like common. Considering the ages of the students, such activity would be illegal in the United States. All that is to say, this play/movie didn't set off any alarm bells about these things happening in society. When a similar scandal broke at Horace Mann school in NYC a few years ago, it didn't create waves of this magnitude. In fact, I am sure this is happening all over the place at schools - but no one is talking about it.

Is it just that Weinstein is so powerful in his field, unlike Bill Cosby, that this has created such an uproar?

I am glad that these things are being brought out...but, like the current college basketball scandals, it's interesting what makes the powder keg blow and what doesn't?

What's the next "everyone knows it's happening but no one will do anything about it" issue?

[killerleft]

I miss the TV show Fringe, one of their episodes set on the "other" earth, had a Back to the Future marquee with Stolz headlining. :)

I miss Fringe, too. Walter, portrayed by John Noble, is one of my all-time favorite TV characters.

[CameronBornAndBred]

This thread made me go back and review the history of Roscoe "Fatty" Arbuckle, who suffered the loss of his career in Hollwood's first sex scandal. In his case, there was no pattern of abuse, but instead one defining moment. (Which went to trial three times and never resulted in a conviction.)

The backlash against him was so severe that people went to the extremes of destroying his movies, not just shelving them.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roscoe_Arbuckle

[rasputin]

This thread made me go back and review the history of Roscoe "Fatty" Arbuckle, who suffered the loss of his career in Hollwood's first sex scandal. In his case, there was no pattern of abuse, but instead one defining moment. (Which went to trial three times and never resulted in a conviction.)

The backlash against him was so severe that people went to the extremes of destroying his movies, not just shelving them.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roscoe_Arbuckle

And in the case of Fatty Arbuckle, when he was tried for the third time on this charge, not only did the jury immediately acquit him, they also prepared a statement to the effect that there was absolutely no evidence of Arbuckle's guilt and that he should never have been charged.

[Blue in the Face]

And speaking of "Hey Hey Hey", I wonder if Fat Albert has also been pulled.
I don't know about Fat Albert, but The Cosby Show is back on a few cable networks.

[Bostondevil]

People still watch Woody Allen movies. Heck, Hollywood actors still MAKE Woody Allen movies. Timing is everything.

I think the atmosphere shifted though when Trump was elected President. There's a certain amount of anger that's been unleashed, anger that isn't going back in the box, maybe. We will all know it's really for real when the next Ben Rothliesberger or Jameis Winston comes around - are athletes still immune? We'll see.

ETA: If I misspelled some names, I don't care. I'm not looking them up.

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

People still watch Woody Allen movies. Heck, Hollywood actors still MAKE Woody Allen movies. Timing is everything.

I think the atmosphere shifted though when Trump was elected President. There's a certain amount of anger that's been unleashed, anger that isn't going back in the box, maybe. We will all know it's really for real when the next Ben Rothliesberger or Jameis Winston comes around - are athletes still immune? We'll see.

ETA: If I misspelled some names, I don't care. I'm not looking them up.

Treading lightly here, as this is a hot bed of emotion and also a political minefield. I won't comment on the Trump remarks, but with athletes it is a different dynamic than with actors/producers.

Athletes and actors are both subject to hero worship or celebrity status - whatever phrase you like. But, the sense I get in Hollywood is there is more of a "well, these are the things you have to do if you want to get ahead." Athletes almost certainly take similar illegal liberties with groupies and abuse their star status, but I feel like it is a different flavor of the same fetid ice cream from actors/producers who - under an auspice of mentorship - abuse the trust of a lower-level coworker, employee, or aspiring star.

My hope is that these stories create an atmosphere of change and intolerance for such behavior. My fear is that it is a social media buzz that people have a sick fascination with for a few weeks.

[Dr. Rosenrosen]

And now Louis CK. At this rate, half of Hollywood will be out of the business shortly.

[Bostondevil]

Treading lightly here, as this is a hot bed of emotion and also a political minefield. I won't comment on the Trump remarks, but with athletes it is a different dynamic than with actors/producers.

Athletes and actors are both subject to hero worship or celebrity status - whatever phrase you like. But, the sense I get in Hollywood is there is more of a "well, these are the things you have to do if you want to get ahead." Athletes almost certainly take similar illegal liberties with groupies and abuse their star status, but I feel like it is a different flavor of the same fetid ice cream from actors/producers who - under an auspice of mentorship - abuse the trust of a lower-level coworker, employee, or aspiring star.

My hope is that these stories create an atmosphere of change and intolerance for such behavior. My fear is that it is a social media buzz that people have a sick fascination with for a few weeks.

I was not trying to be political with the Trump comment. I do think his election was a turning point. We will see.

Have to disagree with you about it being a different flavor of ice cream. Brett Favre sending intimate pictures to Jenn Sterger or what the Jets did to Ines Sainz? Abuse of the trust of lower-level employees/aspiring journalists. Sexual assault is sexual assault - women don't really feel differently about it because the guy is an athlete, they just don't. But I do think that men do. So, I stand by what I said. We will know that attitudes have really changed when we stop making excuses for the athletes too.

That said, I don't think that every woman should be believed just because. Accusations need to be taken seriously and investigated. If they have no merit, dismiss them. But no more dismissing before a proper investigation just because the guy is rich or famous or powerful OR a great athlete.

My second son thinks it all is a flavor of the month situation just like you fear. Again, we'll see.

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

I was not trying to be political with the Trump comment. I do think his election was a turning point. We will see.

Have to disagree with you about it being a different flavor of ice cream. Brett Favre sending intimate pictures to Jenn Sterger or what the Jets did to Ines Sainz? Abuse of the trust of lower-level employees/aspiring journalists. Sexual assault is sexual assault - women don't really feel differently about it because the guy is an athlete, they just don't. But I do think that men do. So, I stand by what I said. We will know that attitudes have really changed when we stop making excuses for the athletes too.

That said, I don't think that every woman should be believed just because. Accusations need to be taken seriously and investigated. If they have no merit, dismiss them. But no more dismissing before a proper investigation just because the guy is rich or famous or powerful OR a great athlete.

My second son thinks it all is a flavor of the month situation just like you fear. Again, we'll see.

No, no, no, you misunderstood my point. I am not saying that one is "less bad," just that they are different. Please don't believe I see one as better. Yes, sexual assault is sexual assaut.

[dudog84]

I don't know how many of you went to graduate school, but sexual harassment was rampant in my department (30-some years ago). I never saw anything as an undergraduate but in graduate school you are much (MUCH) closer to the professors, and much more at their mercy. I dated a girl in the department so I saw it up close, but I felt powerless. I actually wrote about it at the time and I'm not much of a writer.

For some unknown reason, just a week ago I went to ratemyprofessors to check out how my advisor was doing (he's still teaching into his late 60s), and didn't get past the first comment that was from 2017. It said that his comments in class were borderline sexual harassment, so if you're easily offended you should avoid his class. And my advisor was just kinda sophomoric with humor, not like some others.

My apologies to sophomores.

[YmoBeThere]

Years ago in the military, we learned to never have a meeting with an opposite gender subordinate without:

1) the door open
2) preferably with another opposite gender member present particularly in their chain of command

Mere suggestion of impropriety was career limiting/ending.

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

Diana Nyad has come forward about sexual assualt from her coach when she was a young swimmer decades ago. Should be a special circle in Hell for coaches who take advantage of young people.

[Bostondevil]

No, no, no, you misunderstood my point. I am not saying that one is "less bad," just that they are different. Please don't believe I see one as better. Yes, sexual assault is sexual assaut.

Ok.

Also - I wasn't accusing you of thinking one was less bad more the world at large. But it is also true that we have not yet had a big time athlete accused of this kind of thing in the post Harvey Weinstein world. If one does and folks circle the wagons to protect him because they own his jersey, it will be proof that the world hasn't changed.

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

Ok.

Also - I wasn't accusing you of thinking one was less bad more the world at large. But it is also true that we have not yet had a big time athlete accused of this kind of thing in the post Harvey Weinstein world. If one does and folks circle the wagons to protect him because they own his jersey, it will be proof that the world hasn't changed.

You are depressing me.

[CameronBornAndBred]

Louis C.K. just did something rare. He admitted everything was true without excuses for it and issued an apology. (Unlike Spacey who pretty much said "if I did it, I don't remember it, but I would be sorry for it if it happened.")

[Blue in the Face]

Louis C.K. just did something rare. He admitted everything was true without excuses for it and issued an apology. (Unlike Spacey who pretty much said "if I did it, I don't remember it, but I would be sorry for it if it happened.")
He admitted it, but I think it's a bit generous to call it an apology since he never says, oh, I don't know, something along the lines of 'I'm sorry to these women for what I did and how I made them feel'. (I'm not calling you out, it's been referred to multiple places as an apology).


I want to address the stories told to The New York Times by five women named Abby, Rebecca, Dana, Julia who felt able to name themselves and one who did not.

These stories are true. At the time, I said to myself that what I did was O.K. because I never showed a woman my dick without asking first, which is also true. But what I learned later in life, too late, is that when you have power over another person, asking them to look at your dick isn’t a question. It’s a predicament for them. The power I had over these women is that they admired me. And I wielded that power irresponsibly. I have been remorseful of my actions. And I’ve tried to learn from them. And run from them. Now I’m aware of the extent of the impact of my actions. I learned yesterday the extent to which I left these women who admired me feeling badly about themselves and cautious around other men who would never have put them in that position. I also took advantage of the fact that I was widely admired in my and their community, which disabled them from sharing their story and brought hardship to them when they tried because people who look up to me didn’t want to hear it. I didn’t think that I was doing any of that because my position allowed me not to think about it. There is nothing about this that I forgive myself for. And I have to reconcile it with who I am. Which is nothing compared to the task I left them with. I wish I had reacted to their admiration of me by being a good example to them as a man and given them some guidance as a comedian, including because I admired their work.

The hardest regret to live with is what you’ve done to hurt someone else. And I can hardly wrap my head around the scope of hurt I brought on them. I’d be remiss to exclude the hurt that I’ve brought on people who I work with and have worked with who’s professional and personal lives have been impacted by all of this, including projects currently in production: the cast and crew of Better Things, Baskets, The Cops, One Mississippi, and I Love You, Daddy. I deeply regret that this has brought negative attention to my manager Dave Becky who only tried to mediate a situation that I caused. I’ve brought anguish and hardship to the people at FX who have given me so much The Orchard who took a chance on my movie. and every other entity that has bet on me through the years. I’ve brought pain to my family, my friends, my children and their mother.

I have spent my long and lucky career talking and saying anything I want. I will now step back and take a long time to listen. Thank you for reading.

[JasonEvans]

He admitted it, but I think it's a bit generous to call it an apology since he never says, oh, I don't know, something along the lines of 'I'm sorry to these women for what I did and how I made them feel'. (I'm not calling you out, it's been referred to multiple places as an apology).

I dunno-- it sure seems like an apology to me. He seems very contrite and expressly explains how what he did was wrong. In the universe of all possible responses to this stuff, he comes off pretty well in this one, I think. Maybe... maybe... his career is not over.

[Blue in the Face]

I dunno-- it sure seems like an apology to me. He seems very contrite and expressly explains how what he did was wrong. In the universe of all possible responses to this stuff, he comes off pretty well in this one, I think.
He acknowledges what he did was wrong, which is much more than many (all?) of the other responses have done. Credit to him for that. But I don't know how something can be considered an apology if someone doesn't say they're sorry for what they've done to the people wronged.

[Bostondevil]

You are depressing me.

Sorry about that Mtn. Been around that particular block too many times myself. I won't tell you my stories cause in the grand scheme of things, I've gotten off easy. I've been groped more times than I can either count or remember but it never left me feeling bad about myself. I always had enough self-confidence to wonder what was wrong with the men that did it.

The wagons are circling around yet another example, not an athlete though. But evidence that times haven't changed. Except perhaps in Hollywood.

[Jeffrey]

But I don't know how something can be considered an apology if someone doesn't say they're sorry for what they've done to the people wronged.

Don't worry, he is getting ready to feel sorry. What he said is plenty for an attorney. Here come the civil claims.

[ncexnyc]

You have to love the hypocrisy coming out of Hollywood. As Ben Shapiro pointed out several weeks ago this has been going on in Hollywood since its early days. I loved the clip from, "All About Eve," that he showed to highlight this point.

While I find the behavior of these sexual predators despicable, what bothers me the most is the lynch mob mentality displayed by their peers. I'm also disgusted with the lack of courage these people have shown. Jane Fonda had the nerve to admit she knew about Harvey over a year ago, but she didn't say a word about it. Some major stars have kept their mouths shut about this matter and considering their status in the business you have to wonder why.

With all the people tweeting, "ME TOO," maybe it would be easier to ask who hasn't been victimized.

[dudog84]

You have to love the hypocrisy coming out of Hollywood. As Ben Shapiro pointed out several weeks ago this has been going on in Hollywood since its early days. I loved the clip from, "All About Eve," that he showed to highlight this point.

While I find the behavior of these sexual predators despicable, what bothers me the most is the lynch mob mentality displayed by their peers. I'm also disgusted with the lack of courage these people have shown. Jane Fonda had the nerve to admit she knew about Harvey over a year ago, but she didn't say a word about it. Some major stars have kept their mouths shut about this matter and considering their status in the business you have to wonder why.

With all the people tweeting, "ME TOO," maybe it would be easier to ask who hasn't been victimized.

This happens across all segments of society. ALL segments. Entertainment, sports, education, politics, etc. etc. Anyone who doesn't know this has their head in a dark place. Just look at what's going on in Alabama. Officials there have been quoted saying they will still vote for the guy even if the allegations of the former 14-YEAR-OLD (!) are true.

Straight, gay, white, black, it doesn't matter. It's a human condition. Don't get me started on humans.

As for Louis C.K.'s apology not being enough, there's not a single one of us who hasn't done something (not necessarily sexual) that they haven't properly apologized for.

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

This happens across all segments of society. ALL segments. Entertainment, sports, education, politics, etc. etc. Anyone who doesn't know this has their head in a dark place. Just look at what's going on in Alabama. Officials there have been quoted saying they will still vote for the guy even if the allegations of the former 14-YEAR-OLD (!) are true.

Straight, gay, white, black, it doesn't matter. It's a human condition. Don't get me started on humans.

As for Louis C.K.'s apology not being enough, there's not a single one of us who hasn't done something (not necessarily sexual) that they haven't properly apologized for.

At least CK acknowledged his transgressions. No one else seems capable of as much.

Certainly doesn't exonerate him, but at least he is aware of his mistakes.

[Troublemaker]

At least CK acknowledged his transgressions. No one else seems capable of as much.

Certainly doesn't exonerate him, but at least he is aware of his mistakes.


Louis C.K. just did something rare. He admitted everything was true without excuses for it and issued an apology. (Unlike Spacey who pretty much said "if I did it, I don't remember it, but I would be sorry for it if it happened.")

The breadth and nature of the accusations are different. If CK were accused of what Spacey is accused of, there's no way CK could admit to it. And CK's lawyers almost certainly went over his statement with a fine-toothed comb before release, and the statement itself was probably at least partially written by a PR guru. Maybe I'm just feeling grumpy this morning without coffee, but I just don't feel like doling out credit here to CK :-)

[Troublemaker]

You have to love the hypocrisy coming out of Hollywood.


This happens across all segments of society. ALL segments. Entertainment, sports, education, politics, etc. etc. Anyone who doesn't know this has their head in a dark place.

ncexnyc is specifically addressing the hypocrisy, and I do find Hollywood to be extremely hypocritical here. I'm imbued with a healthy dose of cynicism, but for many not as lucky as me, they probably thought Hollywood was one of the last places something like this could happen because their films are so pro-women and their actors and actresses are so pro-women. Turns out, for a ridiculous amount of people in Hollywood, that's all an act. Hollywood is filled with Jimmy Swaggarts. Hypocrites.

[dudog84]

ncexnyc is specifically addressing the hypocrisy, and I do find Hollywood to be extremely hypocritical here. I'm imbued with a healthy dose of cynicism, but for many not as lucky as me, they probably thought Hollywood was one of the last places something like this could happen because their films are so pro-women and their actors and actresses are so pro-women. Turns out, for a ridiculous amount of people in Hollywood, that's all an act. Hollywood is filled with Jimmy Swaggarts. Hypocrites.

Ok, I think I get it now. Hollywood is hypocritical because they pretend to be against such things. All the other segments of society just do it, but since they don't speak out against it, they're not hypocrites.

I'll admit I hate hypocrites, but I'm not sure which is worse quite honestly. Can we just agree they're all scum? :)

[lotusland]

I was not trying to be political with the Trump comment. I do think his election was a turning point. We will see.

Have to disagree with you about it being a different flavor of ice cream. Brett Favre sending intimate pictures to Jenn Sterger or what the Jets did to Ines Sainz? Abuse of the trust of lower-level employees/aspiring journalists. Sexual assault is sexual assault - women don't really feel differently about it because the guy is an athlete, they just don't. But I do think that men do. So, I stand by what I said. We will know that attitudes have really changed when we stop making excuses for the athletes too.

That said, I don't think that every woman should be believed just because. Accusations need to be taken seriously and investigated. If they have no merit, dismiss them. But no more dismissing before a proper investigation just because the guy is rich or famous or powerful OR a great athlete.

My second son thinks it all is a flavor of the month situation just like you fear. Again, we'll see.

Exactly. For instance, if you read the police report for the Jameis Winston case you will most likely conclude Winston was an immature jerk but it’s much less clear as to whether or not he committed a crime. Also the fact that he wasn’t charged probably more to do with the evidence than preferential treatment for an athlete.

[Lord Ash]

I know I haven't been around a lot recently, but wanted to start stopping by again...

Thought I'd share what little I could with this...

The wife used to work in the film industry. She told me several stories about Harvey W, including one where he hit on her in an elevator (she was about 19 at the time) and another when he tried to pick up an intern in an elevator. She said everyone knew what he was, even if they didn't know specifics. (There is also a story about a stripper who died in his room in Cannes, through no fault of his apparently, and it had to be hushed up; a friend of hers was one of Harvey's assistants at the time. WTF, Hollywood and power?) She also said that Spacey was a well-known a-hole (she said his Swimming With Sharks character wasn't that much of an exaggeration and obviously known to be gay. She also has harsh stuff to say about Ari Emmanuel, the inspiration for Ari Gold from HBOs entourage, who constantly went between trying to pick her up and being mean to her.

The two she is waiting for are Will Smith and Hugh Jackman to come out.

Anyway... thought people might be interested in what little inside "info" I can add.

[jimsumner]

Anti-Trump Republican strategist and MSNBC regular Steve Schmidt has suggested that the political world may be next.

"There are, across state capitals and in Washington, D.C., members of Congress who have reputations for untoward behavior," said Steve Schmidt, who guided Republican John McCain's 2008 presidential campaign. "I'm sure they're scared to death."

Read more here: http://www.newsobserver.com/news/politics-government/article184007026.html#storylink=cpy

[JasonEvans]

Anti-Trump Republican strategist and MSNBC regular Steve Schmidt has suggested that the political world may be next.

"There are, across state capitals and in Washington, D.C., members of Congress who have reputations for untoward behavior," said Steve Schmidt, who guided Republican John McCain's 2008 presidential campaign. "I'm sure they're scared to death."

Read more here: http://www.newsobserver.com/news/politics-government/article184007026.html#storylink=cpy

If there is a political side to all this (and the Roy Moore allegations would seem to indicate there will be), I would merely ask folks to stick to facts and not make partisan judgments in this thread. Thanks in advance for your help.

[dudog84]

If there is a political side to all this (and the Roy Moore allegations would seem to indicate there will be), I would merely ask folks to stick to facts and not make partisan judgments in this thread. Thanks in advance for your help.

No doubt both sides of the aisle will be well-represented. Or ne'er-do-well-represented.

[Faison1]

The two she is waiting for are Will Smith and Hugh Jackman to come out.

Anyway... thought people might be interested in what little inside "info" I can add.

What a bummer. Some of my favorite people/actors are going down. I suppose Louise CK and Jeremy Piven are not surprising, but George HW, and Kevin Spacey are troubling me. And if Will Smith is added to the mix, I will be truly sad.

Having witnessed the Duke Lacrosse fiasco, I will withhold judgement until all facts are out, but I remain concerned about what the future holds.

[Lord Ash]

What a bummer. Some of my favorite people/actors are going down. I suppose Louise CK and Jeremy Piven are not surprising, but George HW, and Kevin Spacey are troubling me. And if Will Smith is added to the mix, I will be truly sad.

Having witnessed the Duke Lacrosse fiasco, I will withhold judgement until all facts are out, but I remain concerned about what the future holds.

Sorry, I think it sounded confusing when I said it... I mean come out as gay, not come out as harassers. Didn't realize that it could be taken the wrong way!

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

Sorry, I think it sounded confusing when I said it... I mean come out as gay, not come out as harassers. Didn't realize that it could be taken the wrong way!

Wow. That is very different. Thank you for the clarification.

[Wander]

If there is a political side to all this (and the Roy Moore allegations would seem to indicate there will be), I would merely ask folks to stick to facts and not make partisan judgments in this thread. Thanks in advance for your help.

But, but, but, I have a really great snarky comeback to jimsumner's quoted idea that politicians will be scared to death about evidence of sexual assault coming to light!

[CameronBornAndBred]

Gloria Allred is with a woman as she gives a press conference coming out with more allegations against Roy Moore.

Just curious, has Allred actually brought any of the ladies' cases to court that she does these pressers with? Not undermining the women in anyway, especially if their accounts are true, but Allred seems to ALWAYS be there. It would be one thing if she then took the women with her to court and prevailed, but it seems that after we see these press conferences, she slips back into woodwork to wait on another victim to come forward and grandstand next to.
I don't think that's a PPB question, but a legitimate wondering.

[camion]

But, but, but, I have a really great snarky comeback to jimsumner's quoted idea that politicians will be scared to death about evidence of sexual assault coming to light!

No surprise here, when you visit DBR you're in snark infested waters.


Then there's the dreaded land snark. :eek:
And I are one.

[OldPhiKap]

Gloria Allred is with a woman as she gives a press conference coming out with more allegations against Roy Moore.

Just curious, has Allred actually brought any of the ladies' cases to court that she does these pressers with? Not undermining the women in anyway, especially if their accounts are true, but Allred seems to ALWAYS be there. It would be one thing if she then took the women with her to court and prevailed, but it seems that after we see these press conferences, she slips back into woodwork to wait on another victim to come forward and grandstand next to.
I don't think that's a PPB question, but a legitimate wondering.

LA Times list of her cases (some trials, some settlements, some others):

http://www.latimes.com/local/california/la-me-gloria-allred-famous-cases-20151113-htmlstory.html

[Jeffrey]

The two she is waiting for are Will Smith and Hugh Jackman to come out.


Do you think those two are "sexual predators" or will make claims against sexual predators?

Benny Medina will probably face many claims, but I seriously doubt Will Smith has a legitimate Medina claim and any desire to press one.

[BD80]

... The two she is waiting for are Will Smith and Hugh Jackman to come out. ...

Jackman's performance in Boy From Oz wasn't enough?

7797

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

Do you think those two are "sexual predators" or will make claims against sexual predators?

Benny Medina will probably face many claims, but I seriously doubt Will Smith has a legitimate Medina claim and any desire to press one.

Check the follow up posts. I was also confused by this wording.

[ncexnyc]

Anti-Trump Republican strategist and MSNBC regular Steve Schmidt has suggested that the political world may be next.

"There are, across state capitals and in Washington, D.C., members of Congress who have reputations for untoward behavior," said Steve Schmidt, who guided Republican John McCain's 2008 presidential campaign. "I'm sure they're scared to death."

Read more here: http://www.newsobserver.com/news/politics-government/article184007026.html#storylink=cpy
Give this man a cigar!

The latest politician to come under fire is none other than Al Franken.

[OldPhiKap]

Give this man a cigar!



Ummmm.....

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

Give this man a cigar!

The latest politician to come under fire is none other than Al Franken.

I get your reference, but I don't feel like anything about any of this is something to celebrate.

[Bostondevil]

I get your reference, but I don't feel like anything about any of this is something to celebrate.

I feel like it is far from over. Al Franken is not the only Senator with an incident like this one in his past (although he might be the only one with a photo, maybe). How the Senate reacts this time will set a precedent. Methinks they will tread very carefully.

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

I feel like it is far from over. Al Franken is not the only Senator with an incident like this one in his past (although he might be the only one with a photo, maybe). How the Senate reacts this time will set a precedent. Methinks they will tread very carefully.

I agree. I just don't feel it is appropriate to say "ooh, I guessed the next accused correctly!"

This news cycle has been making me feel ill.

[Bostondevil]

I agree. I just don't feel it is appropriate to say "ooh, I guessed the next accused correctly!"

This news cycle has been making me feel ill.

So, you're woke? Embrace that. Seriously - this stuff is coming out now, but even Shakespeare had something to say about it.

Go read Act II, Scene 4 of Measure for Measure

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

So, you're woke? Embrace that. Seriously - this stuff is coming out now, but even Shakespeare had something to say about it.

Go read Act II, Scene 4 of Measure for Measure

Oh, I'm not trying to say that I'm somehow more enlightened. I just am not comfortable being flippant about these various revelations and accusations. I suppose I ought to skip this thread and focus on other parts of this fabulous forum.

(Do you find the Measure for Measure reference applicable to particularly Franken? Or this entire scandal? My reading (at your suggestion, thank you) is less Franken. We can continue to discuss via PMs if you like, as I'm disinclined to check this thread moving forward.)

Respect and love to all

[PackMan97]

Imagine, people with fame and/or power abusing their station in life to get what they want. Shocking!

I always thought with the advent of everyone carrying an internet enabled camera in their pocket there would be more famous folks caught behaving badly, but it really hasn't seemed to happen yet.

[ncexnyc]

Imagine, people with fame and/or power abusing their station in life to get what they want. Shocking!

I always thought with the advent of everyone carrying an internet enabled camera in their pocket there would be more famous folks caught behaving badly, but it really hasn't seemed to happen yet.

There have been a number of people who have talked about this subject, but for some strange reason they were ignored or labelled as malcontents. Seems that Hollywood and the media has finally found some courage to run with these stories.

As to why more of this hasn't come out before, well people of power do have large wallets.

[Jeffrey]

I'm going to really miss his show! Must confess, I always thought Charlie was one of the good guys.

https://www.cnbc.com/2017/11/20/women-allege-charlie-rose-sexually-harassed-them-washington-post.html

[Troublemaker]

Whoa, Charlie Rose. First Dukie to be hit with allegations (I think).

[weezie]

Holy samoleans, I'm floored.

[FadedTackyShirt]

Whoa, Charlie Rose. First Dukie to be hit with allegations (I think).

Justin Caldbeck.


Truly bummed, really liked Charlie Rose.

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

I'm going to really miss his show! Must confess, I always thought Charlie was one of the good guys.

https://www.cnbc.com/2017/11/20/women-allege-charlie-rose-sexually-harassed-them-washington-post.html

That one hits close to home. Have always respected him. Weird to learn it has been an open secret for some time now.

[duke79]

Whoa, Charlie Rose. First Dukie to be hit with allegations (I think).

Double Dukie, I believe. Duke undergrad and Duke Law School. Ugh.

If the stories from the women are true, he's truly disgusting and despicable.

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

Double Dukie, I believe. Duke undergrad and Duke Law School. Ugh.

If the stories from the women are true, he's truly disgusting and despicable.

So disappointing. One of the few in the media I really respected. Have to back up a bit with him.

This entire exercise has been depressing.

[wavedukefan70s]

I also believe there are a few that have initiated contact with those in power to gain in stature with what ever careers they are in.if they have buyers remorse.then flip the script .pun intended. what recourse do these people have.not that these cases infact have this situation.the accusers have not much to lose.i have seen a few cases where a mans reputation is ruined life destroyed.then the accuser admits because of thier conscience comes clean and gets away scott free.i believe if you accuse you should be subject to the same punishment if found out you made false accusations. fair is fair.a friend of mine lost scholarships and had his reputation ruined in highschool due to a bad break up.young lady fessed up after a year.guy had graduated after they moved by the time everything got cleared.nothing happened to the youglady.

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

I also believe there are a few that have initiated contact with those in power to gain in stature with what ever careers they are in.if they have buyers remorse.then flip the script .pun intended. what recourse do these people have.not that these cases infact have this situation.the accusers have not much to lose.i have seen a few cases where a mans reputation is ruined life destroyed.then the accuser admits because of thier conscience comes clean and gets away scott free.i believe if you accuse you should be subject to the same punishment if found out you made false accusations. fair is fair.a friend of mine lost scholarships and had his reputation ruined in highschool due to a bad break up.young lady fessed up after a year.guy had graduated after they moved by the time everything got cleared.nothing happened to the youglady.

I am sorry, but what?

[Newton_14]

Whoa, Charlie Rose. First Dukie to be hit with allegations (I think).Unreal. I am super disappointed. He is from Henderson in addition to being a Duke Grad. Just crushing. He is one of my favorite journalists out there. Geez this stinks.

[Newton_14]

I am sorry, but what? Me too...:confused:

It seems he was trying to remind us that like the LAX Hoax, we should give the accused their day in court. In the case of Rose though, he already admitted he did the crime so not sure which one of the gazillion dudes currently accused the OP was speaking of??... the all lower case with no spaces after periods makes the post a bit hard to read and follow....

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

Unreal. I am super disappointed. He is from Henderson in addition to being a Duke Grad. Just crushing. He is one of my favorite journalists out there. Geez this stinks.

Very sad. Depressing time to have a hero.

[wavedukefan70s]

Me too...:confused:

It seems he was trying to remind us that like the LAX Hoax, we should give the accused their day in court. In the case of Rose though, he already admitted he did the crime so not sure which one of the gazillion dudes currently accused the OP was speaking of??... the all lower case with no spaces after periods makes the post a bit hard to read and follow...

Im on my phone .no glasses and moonshine.probably should refrain from typing.i typed it and cant understand it.☠

[OldPhiKap]

Im on my phone .no glasses and moonshine.probably should refrain from typing.i typed it and cant understand it.☠

I always advocate; the use of random semicolons.

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

Justin Caldbeck.


Truly bummed, really liked Charlie Rose.

On CBS This Morning, Norah and Gayle were openly upset and shaken this morning in their first segment. They addressed it directly and noted how difficult it was for them, how much the respected the women making accusations, and how generally confusing it is for them. They both acknowledged they hadn't yet talked with Rose, but Gayle said she intends to later today.

I feel for the position they are in.

[Jeffrey]

Im on my phone .no glasses and moonshine.probably should refrain from typing.i typed it and cant understand it.☠

No glasses was probably your mistake. You need to wear your glasses when determining the moonshine's flame color.

[Jeffrey]

On CBS This Morning, Norah and Gayle were openly upset and shaken this morning in their first segment. They addressed it directly and noted how difficult it was for them, how much the respected the women making accusations, and how generally confusing it is for them. They both acknowledged they hadn't yet talked with Rose, but Gayle said she intends to later today.

I feel for the position they are in.

IMO, Rose's statement is an admission.

[Jeffrey]

CBS fired Rose...

https://www.cnbc.com/2017/11/21/cbs-fires-charlie-rose-after-sexual-misconduct-allegations.html

Employers are moving much quicker these days!

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

IMO, Rose's statement is an admission.

I agree. It is an admission and as close to an apology as anyone seems capable of making these days.

[Jeffrey]

I agree. It is an admission and as close to an apology as anyone seems capable of making these days.

The night before Rose's admission, I was watching the first of his two part show with Jeff Fager. IMO, it was a true lovefest. They were talking about the 50th anniversary of 60 minutes and the good ole' days at CBS news when high integrity, ethics, and morals were the culture. I'm wondering if the second part will ever be aired and how many people already knew about the real Charlie? After all, some of these complaints date back almost 20 years and were previously expressed.

[weezie]

Wow, you're spot on. I changed the channel on the gushiness of it all but you nailed the tone. I wonder how much time Rose had to get out of Dodge?

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

Wow, you're spot on. I changed the channel on the gushiness of it all but you nailed the tone. I wonder how much time Rose had to get out of Dodge?

He was off Monday, but that isn't uncommon. I am guessing he knew the article was coming. I still feel really... bad about this one. I know it affects lots of people far more than it does me, but he was on my short list pf media people I highly respected. Whata let down.

[wavedukefan70s]

I always advocate; the use of random semicolons.

I am not sure what the worst idea was.
A:Trying to type blind.
B *Drinking 128 proof.
C:Eating fried devil eggs with Sriracha sauce at the same time.

Yes like the lax case.

[CameronBornAndBred]

C:Eating fried devil eggs with Sriracha sauce at the same time.

Natural alligator repellent.

[OldPhiKap]

C:fried devil eggs with Sriracha sauce.


Natural alligator repellent.

That would be a great Pop Tart flavor.

[BD80]

Anaheim close to Hollywood?

http://www.espn.com/nhl/story/_/id/21576211/anaheim-ducks-take-insensitive-video-naked-ryan-kesler


The Anaheim Ducks apologized Sunday for an "insensitive" video they released in conjunction with the NHL's 100th birthday that depicted a nude player walking past the office cubicles of female co-workers. ...
The video landed with a thud on social media, with some questioning whether the comedy was appropriate given the number of high-profile sexual harassment and assault allegations made across several industries recently, many of them involving the workplace.
"Our tweet posted earlier today was meant to be a lighthearted video celebrating the NHL's 100th birthday," the Ducks wrote on their official Twitter feed. "We realize in retrospect the content of the video may have been insensitive and we have removed the video and apologize."

May have been insensitive?

Great googly moogly, I thought I was dense ...

[Newton_14]

Anaheim close to Hollywood?

http://www.espn.com/nhl/story/_/id/21576211/anaheim-ducks-take-insensitive-video-naked-ryan-kesler



May have been insensitive?

Great googly moogly, I thought I was dense ...

Agree. That video was plain ignorant. especially in the current climate.

[dudog84]

Anaheim close to Hollywood?

http://www.espn.com/nhl/story/_/id/21576211/anaheim-ducks-take-insensitive-video-naked-ryan-kesler



May have been insensitive?

Great googly moogly, I thought I was dense ...

I think it's in Alabama.

[YmoBeThere]

Anaheim close to Hollywood?

http://www.espn.com/nhl/story/_/id/21576211/anaheim-ducks-take-insensitive-video-naked-ryan-kesler



May have been insensitive?

Great googly moogly, I thought I was dense ...

FWIW, their actions do have zero impact on your own density. :)

[Jeffrey]

I think it's in Alabama.

A southern man don't need you around anyhow. :D

[DU82]

Add Matt Lauer to the list.

http://nbc4i.com/2017/11/29/matt-lauer-terminated-from-today-show/

[left_hook_lacey]

I can't keep score anymore. I feel like there are so many cases out there now that the serious(not that they aren't all serious), egregious cases such as Weinstein, Spacey, Cosby, will now get diluted and lumped in with the less severe cases of "he grabbed my butt at work once 20 years ago" cases. Again, not that those aren't serious, but they don't deserve the same attention and scorn that these other monsters should get.

Not sure what type or level of assault Matt L. is being accused of, don't know if we ever will unless the accuser decides to go on the tv interview, book deal(maybe as part of a bigger book on this issue), type route.

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

Garrison Keillor. Ugh.

[left_hook_lacey]

Garrison Keillor. Ugh.

Yeah, don't know who that dude is, but that is one ugly mug.

[OldPhiKap]

Yeah, don't know who that dude is, but that is one ugly mug.

He has a face made for radio. Literally.

He is/was “Prarie Home Companion” on NPR

[PackMan97]

I can't keep score anymore. I feel like there are so many cases out there now that the serious(not that they aren't all serious), egregious cases such as Weinstein, Spacey, Cosby, will now get diluted and lumped in with the less severe cases

Perhaps better stated....the criminal cases will get diluted with cases that merely warrant a firing. That said, grabbing someones buttocks without their permission is still sexual assault. Granted "permission" can be a tricky thing but I think most decent people understand there is a difference between two people consensually flirting in the office, getting friendly and someone maybe getting too handsy and being told to back off...vs "Good morning, your buttocks are looking fine today <firm grab>" as you pass a coworker on your way to get coffee.

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

Yeah, don't know who that dude is, but that is one ugly mug.

He has been a fixture on radio for 35(?) years.

[jimsumner]

Perhaps better stated...the criminal cases will get diluted with cases that merely warrant a firing. That said, grabbing someones buttocks without their permission is still sexual assault. Granted "permission" can be a tricky thing but I think most decent people understand there is a difference between two people consensually flirting in the office, getting friendly and someone maybe getting too handsy and being told to back off...vs "Good morning, your buttocks are looking fine today <firm grab>" as you pass a coworker on your way to get coffee.

Sure. There has to be a continuum. "Copping a feel," to use the vernacular, is repulsive and is or should be a fire-able offense in any rational work environment.

But it isn't the same thing as drugging and raping multiple women.

So, some perspective is useful.

[davekay1971]

Sure. There has to be a continuum. "Copping a feel," to use the vernacular, is repulsive and is or should be a fire-able offense in any rational work environment.

But it isn't the same thing as drugging and raping multiple women.

So, some perspective is useful.

Unless the person copping the feel is a patient not thinking properly from a bad case of DTs. Even if he's a rather burly man and his doctor, who may or may not have been yours truly way back in residency, didn't invite the "package" squeeze.

My wife, meanwhile, a nurse, reminds me that it's a good day when the patient who cops a feel of her has the excuse of being in a mentally altered state.

But I digress...

[dudog84]

Sure. There has to be a continuum. "Copping a feel," to use the vernacular, is repulsive and is or should be a fire-able offense in any rational work environment.

But it isn't the same thing as drugging and raping multiple women.

So, some perspective is useful.

Trying.......so............hard....to..not type a post......that will put me in PPB purgatory!

[duke4ever19]

This is what will happen here. It will start with disgust and meander it's way to *insert yawning sound here*

There is a psychological basis for my claim too, which can be illustrated by how charities wisely utilize psychology to enlist help:

One needy child is a problem. 5,000 needy children is a statistic. If someone tells you about one child . . . gives you his/her name, where they are from and why they need your help, you are more likely pitch in some cash to help. If you are given a statistic with 5,000 children in a similar state, we are more likely to say, "Not today."

Just think of this thread . . . all these single instances of allegations have been collected and placed in one comment thread. Implicitly we are associating everything from Harvey Weinstein to Garrison Keillor touching a woman's back (his claim) in a thread called "Hollywood reacts to decades of sexual predators." This is not a moral judgement on this thread, but it is a way of demonstrating how our penchant for categorization leads us to make what are by themselves disturbing stories, into a collection of this-or-that.

The Marquis De Sade purposely did this exact thing in his infamous novels filled with every imaginable sexual and violent perversion. He demonstrated that by the act of categorization -- of even the grossest things imaginable -- we can actually become de-sensitized and less emotionally involved in the subject matter. This is what will happen to the sexual allegations scandal. It will become just statistics and the public will become a bit bored by it, thus, less inclined to care, to be sympathetic, to help etc.

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

This is what will happen here. It will start with disgust and meander it's way to *insert yawning sound here*

There is a psychological basis for my claim too, which can be illustrated by how charities wisely utilize psychology to enlist help:

One needy child is a problem. 5,000 needy children is a statistic. If someone tells you about one child . . . gives you his/her name, where they are from and why they need your help, you are more likely pitch in some cash to help. If you are given a statistic with 5,000 children in a similar state, we are more likely to say, "Not today."

Just think of this thread . . . all these single instances of allegations have been collected and placed in one comment thread. Implicitly we are associating everything from Harvey Weinstein to Garrison Keillor touching a woman's back (his claim) in a thread called "Hollywood reacts to decades of sexual predators." This is not a moral judgement on this thread, but it is a way of demonstrating how our penchant for categorization leads us to make what are by themselves disturbing stories, into a collection of this-or-that.

The Marquis De Sade purposely did this exact thing in his infamous novels filled with every imaginable sexual and violent perversion. He demonstrated that by the act of categorization -- of even the grossest things imaginable -- we can actually become de-sensitized and less emotionally involved in the subject matter. This is what will happen to the sexual allegations scandal. It will become just statistics and the public will become a bit bored by it, thus, less inclined to care, to be sympathetic, to help etc.

Well, that's depressing. Considering that each successive allegation ought to better hone our disgust and outrage and should better inform our understanding of the Big Picture issues, the idea that instead we, as a culture, devolve into some sort of "sexual assault fatigue" is abhorrent. Possibly true, but definitely abhorrent.

[jimsumner]

Trying....so.......hard...to..not type a post...that will put me in PPB purgatory!

Would you have preferred I said "inappropriate caressing of the buttocks, breasts, genitalia, legs, arms, lips, ears, abs, love handles, toes, feet, or other real or perceived erogenous and/or erotic body parts?"

[BD80]

Interesting study:

https://www.yahoo.com/lifestyle/men-mistake-sexual-interest-consent-new-study-shows-165332234.html

Must reading for men and woman, but particularly for women who feel that they know how to draw the line ... Guys are generally already across the line and gaining momentum.


The study results even took the researchers by surprise — namely, that “men’s ratings of a woman’s sexual desire were effectively synonymous with their perceptions of consent,” says Mattson. “We presumed that they would be correlated to some degree, but that men did not at all distinguish between their perceptions of a woman’s desire and her consenting to sex was unexpected.”

Mattson adds that other studies have shown men tend to “misconstrue even fairly mundane interactions with women as being sexually charged, so it poses a real risk for sexual misconduct that men are determining consent on the basis of their perceptions of a woman’s sexual desire.”


Add the male ego to the equation, particularly celebrities or sports stars, etc. and the perception that every woman they meet sexually desires them ...

[dudog84]

Would you have preferred I said "inappropriate caressing of the buttocks, breasts, genitalia, legs, arms, lips, ears, abs, love handles, toes, feet, or other real or perceived erogenous and/or erotic body parts?"

Sorry, you misunderstood my intent, it was not to make fun of your post. My attempt at nuanced humor falls flat again.

[rsvman]

Sorry, you misunderstood my intent, it was not to make fun of your post. My attempt at nuanced humor falls flat again.

I think I know exactly what you were going to say, but I won't say it here. I don't want to get in trouble, either.

[Skitzle]

You know what I would have liked to see. I would have liked to see Matt Lauer turn himself in. You know it's coming get ahead of it and admit you are wrong!!!

Whos the first man who will voluntarily resign trying to be a good example? Most likely... beuller.

[Bostondevil]

Interesting study:

https://www.yahoo.com/lifestyle/men-mistake-sexual-interest-consent-new-study-shows-165332234.html

Must reading for men and woman, but particularly for women who feel that they know how to draw the line ... Guys are generally already across the line and gaining momentum.



Add the male ego to the equation, particularly celebrities or sports stars, etc. and the perception that every woman they meet sexually desires them ...

I listened to a story on NPR the other day. A female Australian journalist decided to start talking to every man that cat called her in the street to try to determine why they did what they did. She picked the encounter that went the best to feature in her story. The guy seemed rather nice when she talked to him. He genuinely believed that yelling things to women in the street was complimentary and that the occasional posterior slap was flattering. He never slapped unattractive posteriors, he said. By herself, she was unable to convince him that women don't view these experiences as complimentary. He kept saying that she couldn't speak for all women. So, like a good journalist, she went out an interviewed women. While it is true that some women do not mind the occasional cat call and actually do regard them as compliments, the vast majority of women she interviewed (over 80%) said they would prefer not to get them. And even the ones that did say they didn't mind them said that sometimes they would prefer to be left alone. No woman said she liked having her posterior slapped on the street. The journalist met with the one guy again and he stuck to his guns that she couldn't speak for all women. And he clung to that few who said that they liked catcalls to say that he felt no inclination to stop doing it. She did, however, convince him to stop slapping random posteriors. And, the journalist stated again, that was the most progress she made with any man she talked to.

Alas, I'm afraid that phenomenon is not unique to Australia. One of the biggest problems in this whole issue is that men do not believe that women don't secretly like this stuff. Yes - generalizing here, not all men and not all women. But, on average, women are not secretly waiting for men to come on to them, kiss them, fondle them, what have you. We just aren't.

I couldn't sleep the other night and I watched the first part of the movie High Plains Drifter. I had to change channels after the rape scene but then I thought, "That's it!" Guys must think they're Clint Eastwood and women are just waiting for them to take charge. If High Plains Drifter was at all responsible for your feelings about women, get over it. It's not just a movie, it's a fantastical western written by a man, directed by a man (Clint), and starring Clint Eastwood - it has no bearing on anything real. News flash - Clint Eastwood is gross. Women don't want him either. Especially now.

[throatybeard]

I couldn't sleep the other night and I watched the first part of the movie High Plains Drifter. I had to change channels after the rape scene but then I thought, "That's it!" Guys must think they're Clint Eastwood and women are just waiting for them to take charge. If High Plains Drifter was at all responsible for your feelings about women, get over it. It's not just a movie, it's a fantastical western written by a man, directed by a man (Clint), and starring Clint Eastwood - it has no bearing on anything real. News flash - Clint Eastwood is gross. Women don't want him either. Especially now.

I say this as a fan of Eastwood's work with and in front of the camera, albeit an increasingly uncomfortable fan in adulthood, knowing how he has treated women. High Plains Drifter is messed up.

People expressed surprise at Louis CK, which I found befuddling; there was some of that around Matt Weiner too. As with LCK's bits, with the stories for Pete Campbell and Don Draper that Matt Weiner singed off on, there's a terrifying interiority in High Plains Drifter; it seems like there's a level of detail that only someone who has abused women in these ways would know. Take Mad Men. Like LCK's bits on how awful men are to women, there's a similarly terrifying interiority in the portrayals of Draper and Campbell in particular, as they go about their extracurriculars. It's not the nonmonogamy, and some of it's not even the preying on subordinates, on its face, though I'm not excusing that. It's the twisted psychological details: Pete's treatment of Peggy, and the neighbor's au pair; Don's treatment of Linda Cardellini's character, his sadomasochistic relationship with what's his face's wife in S2. (See, Don did so many things that I forget women's names--I could look them up, but I'm being honest here). Like the LCK bits on how dangerous we are to women, it smells to me like there's a level of detail that only perps would know, not genpop and maybe not even victims, where plotting and coverup are concerned.

This post suffers from all sorts of weaknesses, intra-mental hearsay, no firsthand knowledge, etc etc, no doubt. One is a lazy adherence to auteur theory, which I've been cautioning my Wire students against every time I slip into it myself. (David Simon need not and should not be the subject in every sentence about why something went the way it did, and the showrunner doesn't write every line; by S5, I read that the majority of MM writers were women).

I loathe lazy autobiographical readings of texts, and I'm guilty of this lazy adherence to auteur theory when it comes to directors and showrunners. But despite all that, High Plains Drifter seems to me a particularly twisted document reflecting Clint Eastwood the man more than any other picture of his. I've seen it probably five times, none recently, and don't want to again.

At 86, he might be out of the dating game, but he's still very much admired by people of certain political affiliations. The discomfort you and I have with him is not shared by people who don't support women's rights. But I think he's still very much considered "old man hot" by many people. My father, nearly 79, often revives compliments/comparisons to CE about his own appearance, from women and men alike. He looks probably 65.

[Jeffrey]

Was Matt Lauer's behavior the NBC and media culture? How are many/most of the speakers, at this event, not also guilty of inappropriate behavior?

http://www.foxnews.com/entertainment/2017/12/05/media-elite-laughed-at-2008-roast-sending-matt-lauer-s-pervy-behavior.html

For example... "Then “Today” co-host Meredith Vieira was especially crude...

“No. 2 - He loves to eat Curry,” she said as Curry (sitting in the audience) went pale and the crowd roared with laughter. “What? Indian food! What’s wrong with you people?”"

[throatybeard]

So I've been trying to come up with something to say about James Levine, Artistic Director Emeritus of the Metropolitan Opera, alpha conductor at the Met for four plus decades and I've basically failed. Here are some factors though.

-- Everyone knew about the accusations, for decades. Everyone. By everyone, I mean just about everybody who followed the Metropolitan Opera through its terrestrial and satellite broadcasts, telecasts and movie HDcasts. I grew up in small town Georgia and I'd heard about this by the time I was in HS in the early 1990s. I wasn't then and am not now in Classical Music, though I'm far better networked, superficially, with people in opera on social media now. By decades, I mean, some of the men whom the present news stories revolve around are in their 40s to 60s now; they were teenagers in the 1970s and 1980s and 1990s.

--The institutional rot here is extensive. I don't, for example, consider Charlie Rose's behavior a massive indictment of PBS overall. That was a boutique show with only a dozen or fifteen people working on it; he exercised near total control and had an executive producer who covered for him. I say this not to minimize what he did, but the Rose case does not, IMO, serve by itself of evidence that PBS is enacting an extensive coverup. OTOH, the number of people involved in protecting Levine must be rather significant. The accusations implicate every General Manager of the company since 1971, possibly excepting Peter Gelb, the current GM (though I don't think so). Volpe, Crawford, Southern, Bliss, I've forgotten a couple probably. Some people opine that if major donors drop out, this may bring down the biggest opera company in the world.

--If you don't follow opera, it's difficult to communicate the man's professional importance in the field and at the Met in particular. The best analogy I've come up with is like if it was Paterno himself at Penn State rather than Sandusky. But Penn State is the nearly unquestioned top football program in the United States and there are only a few dozen of them instead of hundreds.

--After the story re-broke, Levine conducted the season-opening terrestrial broadcast of the Verdi Requiem. The Met released a terse statement suspending him after that; Gelb has replaced him for the NYE premiere of the New Tosca and the other two productions he was expected to lead this year now have TBA conductors on the website. Gelb later sent an email to all ticketholders/donors, that basically said, this was bad and stuff, but please don't stop donating to the company because of this. I give the PR response about a D grade.

It's gross, it's terrible, and what has come out so far smells like the tip of an iceberg rather than the iceberg's center of gravity.

[Bostondevil]

Have you seen the stuff about Israel Horowitz? He was protected by at least one artistic director at Gloucester Stage. Bill Marx first wrote about the accusations in 1993. Horowitz never stopped. As time went on, the buddy system for younger female actresses was enforced with a vengeance when Horowitz was involved with a project. Nobody I know was surprised by the announcement - how could we be? Nor was anybody particularly dismayed. The feelings around here are basically relief. More than one actor friend has said, "Finally!" (I never worked with him but I have friends who did.)

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

Have you seen the stuff about Israel Horowitz? He was protected by at least one artistic director at Gloucester Stage. Bill Marx first wrote about the accusations in 1993. Horowitz never stopped. As time went on, the buddy system for younger female actresses was enforced with a vengeance when Horowitz was involved with a project. Nobody I know was surprised by the announcement - how could we be? Nor was anybody particularly dismayed. The feelings around here are basically relief. More than one actor friend has said, "Finally!" (I never worked with him but I have friends who did.)

Interestingly, his son is Adam Horowitz of Beastie Boys fame. Adam is on the record as 100% siding with the accusers against his father. That's pretty telling.

I have a hard time reminding myself that these stories are, in a way, a road towards progress. As in, this sort of cleansing is required in order to move forward as a society with a renewed sense of values, and a commitment to certain standards of common decency.

Very easy to just see story after story of similar behavior and get depressed.

[Bostondevil]

High Plains Drifter is messed up.



Yep. We agree on that point.

Does Clint Eastwood still have some fans that think of him as old man hot? Yeah, probably. But times have changed, attitudes have changed, and he didn't change with them, so, I suspect his fan base is increasingly male. I don't know any women that still think of him as hot but friends of BD is not a random sample.

[PackMan97]

I know I've lived a fairly sheltered and boring life....but WTF is wrong with the world that these men were allowed, yes allowed, to get away with this stuff for so long?

[duke79]

So I've been trying to come up with something to say about James Levine, Artistic Director Emeritus of the Metropolitan Opera, alpha conductor at the Met for four plus decades and I've basically failed. Here are some factors though.

-- Everyone knew about the accusations, for decades. Everyone. By everyone, I mean just about everybody who followed the Metropolitan Opera through its terrestrial and satellite broadcasts, telecasts and movie HDcasts. I grew up in small town Georgia and I'd heard about this by the time I was in HS in the early 1990s. I wasn't then and am not now in Classical Music, though I'm far better networked, superficially, with people in opera on social media now. By decades, I mean, some of the men whom the present news stories revolve around are in their 40s to 60s now; they were teenagers in the 1970s and 1980s and 1990s.

--The institutional rot here is extensive. I don't, for example, consider Charlie Rose's behavior a massive indictment of PBS overall. That was a boutique show with only a dozen or fifteen people working on it; he exercised near total control and had an executive producer who covered for him. I say this not to minimize what he did, but the Rose case does not, IMO, serve by itself of evidence that PBS is enacting an extensive coverup. OTOH, the number of people involved in protecting Levine must be rather significant. The accusations implicate every General Manager of the company since 1971, possibly excepting Peter Gelb, the current GM (though I don't think so). Volpe, Crawford, Southern, Bliss, I've forgotten a couple probably. Some people opine that if major donors drop out, this may bring down the biggest opera company in the world.

--If you don't follow opera, it's difficult to communicate the man's professional importance in the field and at the Met in particular. The best analogy I've come up with is like if it was Paterno himself at Penn State rather than Sandusky. But Penn State is the nearly unquestioned top football program in the United States and there are only a few dozen of them instead of hundreds.

--After the story re-broke, Levine conducted the season-opening terrestrial broadcast of the Verdi Requiem. The Met released a terse statement suspending him after that; Gelb has replaced him for the NYE premiere of the New Tosca and the other two productions he was expected to lead this year now have TBA conductors on the website. Gelb later sent an email to all ticketholders/donors, that basically said, this was bad and stuff, but please don't stop donating to the company because of this. I give the PR response about a D grade.

It's gross, it's terrible, and what has come out so far smells like the tip of an iceberg rather than the iceberg's center of gravity.

And, perhaps as importantly, he was the "music director" (i.e., conductor) of the Boston Symphony Orchestra (BSO) from the 2004/2005 season through 2011. This is one of the most prestigious positions in the entire world of classical music (think of it like being the Duke basketball coach!). Of course, the BSO is now saying that they thoroughly vetted him before they hired him as the music director and that they never had ANY complaints about him while he was the music director. Time will tell if this is true but it is, at least, somewhat of an embarrassment to the BSO.

[duke79]

Interestingly, his son is Adam Horowitz of Beastie Boys fame. Adam is on the record as 100% siding with the accusers against his father. That's pretty telling.

I have a hard time reminding myself that these stories are, in a way, a road towards progress. As in, this sort of cleansing is required in order to move forward as a society with a renewed sense of values, and a commitment to certain standards of common decency.

Very easy to just see story after story of similar behavior and get depressed.

I share your disgust and depression at the number of disgusting and despicable stories that have come out since the Harvey Weinstein revelations but let's hope all of these stories makes people think twice before engaging in this sort of conduct in the future.

[JasonEvans]

Al Franken is going down. There are now 10 democratic senators calling for him to resign.

A month ago he seemed like one of the leading contenders to be our next president.

-Jason "at least the meteoric crashes of some of these people shows that even the very mighty can be felled quickly for this kind of disgusting stuff" Evans

[dudog84]

Al Franken is going down. There are now 10 democratic senators calling for him to resign.

A month ago he seemed like one of the leading contenders to be our next president.

-Jason "at least the meteoric crashes of some of these people shows that even the very mighty can be felled quickly for this kind of disgusting stuff" Evans

If only.

[PackMan97]

Franken was just a creep taking advantage of circumstance, not really an abuser of power like the other headliners.

I don't know about that. In most of these situations he was the headline act, or the host of the show, and he was taking advantage of those younger and less secure in their positions than he was.

I think with regards to those whose nature is already known, we can only hope karma catches up with them regardless of who they are or what title they held/currently hold.

[JasonEvans]

Ok, ok... calm down people. Let's keep politics out of this. Unless there is something substantively new to report, talking about sexual harassment allegations against Donald Trump and Bill Clinton is forbidden.

Several posts have been deleted.

[Jeffrey]

Al Franken is going down. There are now 10 democratic senators calling for him to resign.

A month ago he seemed like one of the leading contenders to be our next president.



Why do you believe that? I do not think it was ever a possibility.

[OldPhiKap]

Why do you believe that? I do not think it was ever a possibility.

His book and TV appearances sure made him look like an early potential candidate. Not sure about contender. I think he had some buzz on the left but boy sure how much. Likely less than Kamala Harris who is probably the leading candidate under 70.

[OldPhiKap]

His book and TV appearances sure made him look like an early potential candidate. Not sure about contender. I think he had some buzz on the left but boy sure how much. Likely less than Kamala Harris who is probably the leading candidate under 70.

*not* sure how much.

[Jeffrey]

His book and TV appearances sure made him look like an early potential candidate. Not sure about contender. I think he had some buzz on the left but boy sure how much. Likely less than Kamala Harris who is probably the leading candidate under 70.

Bill Clinton refused to admit he inhaled, in the 70's, for a political reason. No doubt, the USA is now much more accepting of pot use than 25 years ago. However, I still think the GOP would be able to successfully attack the kinds (LSD, cocaine, heroin, etc.) and amount of hard drugs Franken used in the 70's. Al has a lot of skeletons from the closet. I doubt the Dems would have wanted to deal with those issues in 2020.

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

Bill Clinton refused to admit he inhaled, in the 70's, for a political reason. No doubt, the USA is now much more accepting of pot use than 25 years ago. However, I still think the GOP would be able to successfully attack the kinds (LSD, cocaine, heroin, etc.) and amount of hard drugs Franken used in the 70's. Al has a lot of skeletons from the closet.

Three years ago I would have agreed with you, but it appears all the rules have changed and I can't keep up with what does and does not disqualify one from public service.

[swood1000]

Al Franken is going down. There are now 10 democratic senators calling for him to resign.

A month ago he seemed like one of the leading contenders to be our next president.

-Jason "at least the meteoric crashes of some of these people shows that even the very mighty can be felled quickly for this kind of disgusting stuff" Evans

Now up to 32. Looking like a frenzy to avoid not being on the right side of this when Franken resigns, and being accused in their next race as soft on sexual predators, deliberation and a hearing be damned.


Thirty-two Democratic senators -- 13 female and 19 male -- called on Franken to resign as allegations of sexual harassment against him continue to mount. Republican Sen. Susan Collins also called on Franken to quit. http://www.cnn.com/2017/12/06/politics/al-franken-democratic-senators-resign/index.html

Kind of dismal when it includes the Senate Minority Leader.

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

Now up to 32. Looking like a frenzy to avoid not being on the right side of this when Franken resigns, and being accused in their next race as soft on sexual predators, deliberation and a hearing be damned.


Kind of dismal when it includes the Senate Minority Leader.

I suspect it is more about positioning their party as a contrast to the opposition.

[dudog84]

I suspect it is more about positioning their party as a contrast to the opposition.

Bingo. But it's clearly not going to matter if Alabama elects the child predator. The camps are pretty ingrained and far apart right now. And I don't see it ever getting better. I'm not sure a World War would bring this country together.

[swood1000]

I suspect it is more about positioning their party as a contrast to the opposition.

But why the sudden haste, and no willingness to give the accused even a hearing? Maybe they perceive a benefit in doing it before the Alabama election, five days from now.

It takes 67 votes to expel from the Senate. They have that if the 32 Democrats were joined by just over 2/3 of the Republicans. Some Republicans might be motivated to do this in order to make it easier to expel Moore if he is elected, on the assumption that this wouldn’t endanger their majority since the governor would appoint another Republican.

[Jeffrey]

But why the sudden haste, and no willingness to give the accused even a hearing?

Innocent until proven guilty? Is that in the best interest of their re-election campaign?

[dudog84]

But why the sudden haste, and no willingness to give the accused even a hearing? Maybe they perceive a benefit in doing it before the Alabama election, five days from now.

It takes 67 votes to expel from the Senate. They have that if the 32 Democrats were joined by just over 2/3 of the Republicans. Some Republicans might be motivated to do this in order to make it easier to expel Moore if he is elected, on the assumption that this wouldn’t endanger their majority since the governor would appoint another Republican.

How cynical is all of that? Not being critical of you, swood, just sayin'. And you're probably right.

[swood1000]

I suspect it is more about positioning their party as a contrast to the opposition.

Which will be made more difficult by the Republicans citing statements by Democrats in support of Bill Clinton around the time of his travails.

[swood1000]

How cynical is all of that?

How could you interpret my remarks as a suggestion that politicians might operate out of political motivations?

[Jeffrey]

How could you interpret my remarks as a suggestion that politicians might operate out of political motivations?

Exactly! How could any U.S. citizen believe that's possible?

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

But why the sudden haste, and no willingness to give the accused even a hearing? Maybe they perceive a benefit in doing it before the Alabama election, five days from now.

It takes 67 votes to expel from the Senate. They have that if the 32 Democrats were joined by just over 2/3 of the Republicans. Some Republicans might be motivated to do this in order to make it easier to expel Moore if he is elected, on the assumption that this wouldn’t endanger their majority since the governor would appoint another Republican.

Like I said, if you want to be cynical about it, the Dems are positioning themselves as zero tolerance for sexual assault (this doesn't really sound so insane when you read it out loud) while the GOP is lining up behind Moore to maintain power, regardless of yhr allegations. I am not going to posit which is the better ploy, but I know which one I feel more comfortable with.

I am sure folks on both sides of the aisle will line up behind their own, as we become more and more partisan and we become less comfortable stomaching the alternatives.

[Jeffrey]

Like I said, if you want to be cynical about it, the Dems are positioning themselves as zero tolerance for sexual assault (this doesn't really sound so insane when you read it out loud) while the GOP is lining up behind Moore to maintain power, regardless of yhr allegations. I am not going to posit which is the better ploy, but I know which one I feel more comfortable with.

I am sure folks on both sides of the aisle will line up behind their own, as we become more and more partisan and we become less comfortable stomaching the alternatives.

I'm a moderate and not a big fan of either side. I'm truly addressing this from an innocent until proven guilty perspective.

Why don't we move back to Hollywood? Clearly, little time has been spent investigating the charges before people have been terminated. Maybe, that's because the facts were already known and the bosses should have done their jobs years ago? However, the time will come when an innocent person is falsely accused. That will probably be very soon, if not already. What will happen to that person in the current environment?

[DukieInKansas]

I'm a moderate and not a big fan of either side. I'm truly addressing this from an innocent until proven guilty perspective.

Why don't we move back to Hollywood? Clearly, little time has been spent investigating the charges before people have been terminated. Maybe, that's because the facts were already known and the bosses should have done their jobs years ago? However, the time will come when an innocent person will be accused. That will probably be very soon, if not already. What will happen to that person in the current environment?

Hasn't that already happened? Something in 2006, I believe.

[OldPhiKap]

I suspect it is more about positioning their party as a contrast to the opposition.

I want to avoid politics, so I will simply refer interested parties to an op-ed in today’s WSJ (“Trump’s Frankenmoore Nightmare”) which explores this directly.

[Wander]

Why don't we move back to Hollywood? Clearly, little time has been spent investigating the charges before people have been terminated. Maybe, that's because the facts were already known and the bosses should have done their jobs years ago? However, the time will come when an innocent person will be accused. That will probably be very soon, if not already. What will happen to that person in the current environment?

The thing that surprises me the most about all of this is that most of the people accused have barely tried to deny the allegations, and many have more or less openly admitted guilt. I guess that's because for most of them, their transgressions were extremely well known throughout their communities.

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

I'm a moderate and not a big fan of either side. I'm truly addressing this from an innocent until proven guilty perspective.

Why don't we move back to Hollywood? Clearly, little time has been spent investigating the charges before people have been terminated. Maybe, that's because the facts were already known and the bosses should have done their jobs years ago? However, the time will come when an innocent person is falsely accused. That will probably be very soon, if not already. What will happen to that person in the current environment?

Perhaps we assume that folks who are resigning in the face of these allegations don't require due process, and are admitting to their transgressions?

Also, you have to acknowledge that the court of opinion operates on very different rules than a court of law. If one of my employees was alleged to have committed dozens of sex crimes, I would have to be pretty damn confident in their character to not fire them before the course of due process. Not saying it is right or wrong, but it is reality.

As yet, the only person caught up in this that gone to trial is Bill Cosby. And it seems that just about everyone agrees that he was doing dirty deeds for decades. It is just a question of whether or not he ends up in jail.

[Jeffrey]

Also, you have to acknowledge that the court of opinion operates on very different rules than a court of law. If one of my employees was alleged to have committed dozens of sex crimes, I would have to be pretty damn confident in their character to not fire them before the course of due process. Not saying it is right or wrong, but it is reality.


Are you concerned that placing the court of opinion first may result in your company ending up in a court of law?

My employees always get due process before I make the final decision.

[dudog84]

I want to avoid politics, so I will simply refer interested parties to an op-ed in today’s WSJ (“Trump’s Frankenmoore Nightmare”) which explores this directly.

Isn't there some saying about a leopard and his spots?

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

Are you concerned that placing the court of opinion first may result in your company ending up in a court of law?

My employees get due process before I make the final decision.

Luckily I have never had an employee facing dozens of sexual assault allegations. But if I did, NC is a work at will state, and if it was hurting my business and I didn't believe they were innocent, I would be comfortable firing someone to protect my company and my other employees. No qualms at all.

[Jeffrey]

Luckily I have never had an employee facing dozens of sexual assault allegations. But if I did, NC is a work at will state, and if it was hurting my business and I didn't believe they were innocent, I would be comfortable firing someone to protect my company and my other employees. No qualms at all.

I'd immediately send them home with pay (to protect my company and my other employees), fully investigate (to be fair and reasonable), and make the best decision possible. I'm changing lives and will never forget that fact.

BTW, this is a great conversation, thanks!

[swood1000]

However, the time will come when an innocent person is falsely accused. That will probably be very soon, if not already. What will happen to that person in the current environment?

For the most part those accused in the recent past have not denied it or have weakly suggested that the accusations were mischaracterized. The latter was tried by Al Franken for about a day. The categorical and indignant response to be expected from someone truly innocent would probably result in a different perception by the public. The demand by Moore to allow an examination of the yearbook of one of his accusers, followed by the refusal to allow this, seems to have resulted in that one being discounted.

[Matches]

Luckily I have never had an employee facing dozens of sexual assault allegations. But if I did, NC is a work at will state, and if it was hurting my business and I didn't believe they were innocent, I would be comfortable firing someone to protect my company and my other employees. No qualms at all.

The bolded part is key, IMO. Concepts like “innocent until proven guilty” and due process are for courts of law. They’re fine concepts but they really aren’t applicable outside of that context. Either the person is guilty or they are innocent, and if I’m the employer it’s up to me to decide that. If it’s the former, they need to go.

[PackMan97]

Perhaps we assume that folks who are resigning in the face of these allegations don't require due process, and are admitting to their transgressions?

Is there anyone strongly challenging allegatiosn against them? I'm not aware of any so far. I know Matt Lauer gave a, "it's not as bad as some are saying, but ya...I'm sorry for what I've done", which is the closest I've seen to someone denying the allegations.

[Jeffrey]

The bolded part is key, IMO. Concepts like “innocent until proven guilty” and due process are for courts of law. They’re fine concepts but they really aren’t applicable outside of that context. Either the person is guilty or they are innocent, and if I’m the employer it’s up to me to decide that. If it’s the former, they need to go.

To each their own. My initial belief has been wrong more than once. I prefer a full investigation before making a life changing decision. I believe my employees deserve that.

[swood1000]

Franken resigns (https://www.wsj.com/articles/al-franken-set-to-make-announcement-soon-on-whether-he-plans-to-resign-1512661643).

[Matches]

To each their own. My initial belief has been wrong more than once. I prefer a full investigation before making a life changing decision. I believe my employees deserve that.

We’re perhaps talking around one another. I wouldn’t suggest making an off-the-cuff snap judgment for the same reasons you cite, but generally an investigation can be done quickly and efficiently.

[luburch]

Is there anyone strongly challenging allegatiosn against them? I'm not aware of any so far. I know Matt Lauer gave a, "it's not as bad as some are saying, but ya...I'm sorry for what I've done", which is the closest I've seen to someone denying the allegations.

Danny Masterson has, I believe.

[swood1000]

Luckily I have never had an employee facing dozens of sexual assault allegations. But if I did, NC is a work at will state, and if it was hurting my business and I didn't believe they were innocent, I would be comfortable firing someone to protect my company and my other employees. No qualms at all.


The bolded part is key, IMO. Concepts like “innocent until proven guilty” and due process are for courts of law. They’re fine concepts but they really aren’t applicable outside of that context. Either the person is guilty or they are innocent, and if I’m the employer it’s up to me to decide that. If it’s the former, they need to go.

Unfortunately, the Duke administration and much of the faculty at the time of the Lacrosse Scandal just wanted to protect the University and to stem damage to Duke’s reputation without delay, resulting in the Lacrosse team unfairly being thrown under the bus.

[Jeffrey]

Unfortunately, the Duke administration and much of the faculty at the time of the Lacrosse Scandal just wanted to protect the University and to stem damage to Duke’s reputation without delay, resulting in the Lacrosse team unfairly being thrown under the bus.

The court of opinion made strong demands.

[swood1000]

Franken resigns (https://www.wsj.com/articles/al-franken-set-to-make-announcement-soon-on-whether-he-plans-to-resign-1512661643).

In Minnesota, Franken barely won over the Republican (https://www.politico.com/story/2009/06/coleman-concedes-race-to-franken-024383) in his first race for the Senate, so while a Democrat will be appointed temporarily in the election to follow, the Republicans will have a chance, unlike a Democrat in the election to follow Moore's expulsion.

[BandAlum83]

Is there anyone strongly challenging allegatiosn against them? I'm not aware of any so far. I know Matt Lauer gave a, "it's not as bad as some are saying, but ya...I'm sorry for what I've done", which is the closest I've seen to someone denying the allegations.

Ray Moore has categorically denied all allegations, as has Donald Trump. The President even added that after the election, he would be suing all 16 accusers after the election was over. He has yet to do so.

In a turn around, one of Trump's accusers is suing him (http://www.exposinggovernment.com/2017/12/07/trump-sexual-assault-accuser-just-dropped-a-bombshell-that-will-have-trump-freaking-out/), and her lawyers are using the precedent set in the Clinton years that a sitting President may be sued in a civil case.

[swood1000]

Ray Moore has categorically denied all allegations, as has Donald Trump. The President even added that after the election, he would be suing all 16 accusers after the election was over. He has yet to do so.

Trump's denials were made less credible because of his recorded statements on the subject. Roy Moore had many natural enemies because of his right wing political leanings and because of his many inflammatory remarks (https://www.politico.com/story/2017/09/27/roy-moore-outrageous-things-he-said-243207). Also, Moore's apparent proclivity for teenagers made the accusations more credible. And the remarks by his supporters that Mary, mother of Jesus, was only 14 probably didn't help his case.


In a turn around, one of Trump's accusers is suing him (http://www.exposinggovernment.com/2017/12/07/trump-sexual-assault-accuser-just-dropped-a-bombshell-that-will-have-trump-freaking-out/), and her lawyers are using the precedent set in the Clinton years that a sitting President may be sued in a civil case.

The Supreme Court may have second thoughts about allowing the President to be sued, since it turned out to be such a major distraction for Clinton.

[swood1000]

Ray Moore has categorically denied all allegations

Also, Moore's denials have lacked a truly indignant character. More along the line that he has no recollection of such a thing, with no implication that it would be impossible.

[dudog84]

Also, Moore's denials have lacked a truly indignant character. More along the line that he has no recollection of such a thing, with no implication that it would be impossible.

Moore said that while in his 30s he never took a girl out without asking her mother. That's all I needed to hear.

At about 6:50 in the following clip:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ER59sO7UK6I

[gus]

Ray Moore has categorically denied all allegations, as has Donald Trump.

https://www.theonion.com/alabama-forced-to-release-thousands-of-sex-offenders-af-1821015675

[swood1000]

https://www.theonion.com/alabama-forced-to-release-thousands-of-sex-offenders-af-1821015675

Yes, but those inmates "firmly" denied the charges, "often very emphatically." Unfortunately for Moore, he appears not to have gone so far.

[PackMan97]

Moore said that while in his 30s he never took a girl out without asking her mother. That's all I needed to hear.

That quote is what moved me on the issue as well.

In other news, Trent Franks (R) from Arizona is going to resign his house seat for asking female staffers, "Will you have my baby?". Well, not exactly that, but apparently he and his wife were having infertility troubles and decided to seek a surrogate. Naturally, the first place you look is among your congressional staffers. Truth is indeed stranger than fiction.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/rep-trent-franks-of-arizona-is-expected-to-resign/2017/12/07/479d156a-db9f-11e7-b859-fb0995360725_story.html

[throatybeard]

James Levine is taking the Roy Moore approach rather than the Louis CK one (https://www.nytimes.com/2017/12/07/arts/music/met-opera-james-levine-trovatore-luisa-miller.html).

(Innocent until proven guilty blah blah great. Of all these, this is the one where I know the most people who vouch for the accuracy of the allegations).

If you follow opera for four decades, buy CDs, VHS tapes, DVDs, BluRays, you don't realize how much this dude's face is all over your house.

[duke79]

Apparently, another woman (an actress) has come forward to accuse Dustin Hoffman of horrific sexual harassment. I'm not sure this tsunami of sexual harassment claims will end any time soon.

[weezie]

Apparently, another woman (an actress) has come forward to accuse Dustin Hoffman of horrific sexual harassment...

How utterly bizarre that he played Tootsie for laughs. It's beyond obscene now. Is John Oliver on this weekend?

[swood1000]

How utterly bizarre that he played Tootsie for laughs. It's beyond obscene now. Is John Oliver on this weekend?
Are comedies about men pretending to be women now the equivalent of blackface?

[Jeffrey]

I'm not sure this tsunami of sexual harassment claims will end any time soon.

I'm sure it will not. The only question is when it flips from truth to lies. There's lots of money to be made in settlements.

[-jk]

I'm sure it will not. The only question is when it flips from truth to lies. There's lots of money to be made in settlements.

So long as it's public, most of the abused will have corroboration; evidence suggests these guys are multiple abusers...

-jk

[-jk]

I'm sure it will not. The only question is when it flips from truth to lies. There's lots of money to be made in settlements.

So long as it's public, most of the abused will have corroboration; evidence suggests these guys are multiple abusers/gropers/grabbers...

-jk

[jimsumner]

How utterly bizarre that he played Tootsie for laughs. It's beyond obscene now. Is John Oliver on this weekend?

John Oliver and Bill Maher are both off until January. Lots of catching up to do. Imagine the possibilities.

But Samantha Bee sure had a lot to say on the topic last week.


RE: James Levine. The Levine rumors have been prevalent for decades. The idea that management is just hearing about this stuff doesn't just strain credulity, it nukes credulity.

[left_hook_lacey]

And the hits just keep on coming.

https://www.yahoo.com/sports/report-marshall-faulk-donovan-mcnabb-heath-evans-named-sexual-harassment-suit-nfl-network-045542744.html

[Tripping William]

Looks like this thread and the Carolina Panthers Tenesmus thread (http://forums.dukebasketballreport.com/forums/showthread.php?40334-The-2017-18-Carolina-Panthers-Tenesmus/page4) have converged, in light of workplace misconduct allegations against team owner Jerry Richardson and his announcement that he will sell the team after this season.

[JasonEvans]

Looks like this thread and the Carolina Panthers Tenesmus thread (http://forums.dukebasketballreport.com/forums/showthread.php?40334-The-2017-18-Carolina-Panthers-Tenesmus/page4) have converged, in light of workplace misconduct allegations against team owner Jerry Richardson and his announcement that he will sell the team after this season.

While many lament that society has not treated sexual harassment seriously enough for a loooong time, I would hope that seeing a super-rich dude forced out of his $billion+ mega-sports business and seeing a man seemingly destined for the senate upended at the last minute would make this a week where some positive things happened.

Meanwhile... the NFL network stuff is just beyond gross.

-Jason "I'll say this... my sons are both in college and I can tell you that the generation of men coming of age amidst all this stuff are learning that you cannot get away with treating women like objects!" Evans

[Tripping William]

While many lament that society has not treated sexual harassment seriously enough for a loooong time, I would hope that seeing a super-rich dude forced out of his $billion+ mega-sports business and seeing a man seemingly destined for the senate upended at the last minute would make this a week where some positive things happened.


And if the super-rich dude who has owned a $billion+ mega-sports business, or a near-Senator, isn't enough, how about adding a long-standing United States Court of Appeals for the Ninth Circuit judge (https://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2017/12/18/571677955/federal-judge-resigns-in-the-wake-of-sexual-harassment-allegations?utm_source=facebook.com&utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=npr&utm_term=nprnews&utm_content=2047) to the list?

[swood1000]

And if the super-rich dude who has owned a $billion+ mega-sports business, or a near-Senator, isn't enough, how about adding a long-standing United States Court of Appeals for the Ninth Circuit judge (https://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2017/12/18/571677955/federal-judge-resigns-in-the-wake-of-sexual-harassment-allegations?utm_source=facebook.com&utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=npr&utm_term=nprnews&utm_content=2047) to the list?
Judge Kosinski had weathered a previous scandal back in 2008 (http://www.latimes.com/local/la-me-kozinski12-2008jun12-story.html) when he posted sexually explicit material on his website, believing that the public did not have access to it. I don't think that even a description of the material would survive on this site. Suffice it to say that it was multifarious. At the time, Kosinski was presiding over an obscenity trial in Los Angeles, and he was asked to step down.


Kozinski said he didn't think any of the material he posted on his website would qualify as obscene.

"Is it prurient? I don't know what to tell you," he said. "I think it's odd and interesting. It's part of life."

However, he did step down from being the judge in that case. He was later admonished by a judicial council (http://www.cnn.com/2009/CRIME/07/02/judge.explicit.files/) but not removed from the bench. Kosinski was a conservative (one of the few in the 9th Circuit) whose legal opinions were very highly regarded by legal scholars. He served as Chief Judge of the 9th circuit from 2007 to 2014.

[snowdenscold]

I totally forgot this incident during this whole thread, but a couple years ago one of MIT's long-time star physics professors and lecturers, Walter Lewin, was forced out after online sexual harassment issues came to light.

http://tech.mit.edu/V134/N60/walterlewin.html

The interesting discussion here is what should have been done with all his material available online, such as through EdX, YouTube, or OCW (opencourseware).

MIT chose to ultimately get rid of the material from their official sites (it's still available at places like http://videolectures.net/mit802s02_electricity_magnetism/ )

Similar to the debate on separating art from artist (very recently with movie stars, but also applicable to long-dead artists), it's tough to decide what to do with already-created content from people whom have now become persona non grata.

How do you weigh the public benefit of good, freely available lecture material vs. making a strong statement against things such as sexual harassment.

http://tech.mit.edu/V134/N62/lewin.html

[swood1000]

I totally forgot this incident during this whole thread, but a couple years ago one of MIT's long-time star physics professors and lecturers, Walter Lewin, was forced out after online sexual harassment issues came to light.

http://tech.mit.edu/V134/N60/walterlewin.html

The interesting discussion here is what should have been done with all his material available online, such as through EdX, YouTube, or OCW (opencourseware).

MIT chose to ultimately get rid of the material from their official sites (it's still available at places like http://videolectures.net/mit802s02_electricity_magnetism/ )

Similar to the debate on separating art from artist (very recently with movie stars, but also applicable to long-dead artists), it's tough to decide what to do with already-created content from people whom have now become persona non grata.

How do you weigh the public benefit of good, freely available lecture material vs. making a strong statement against things such as sexual harassment.

http://tech.mit.edu/V134/N62/lewin.html

Harvard and MIT, who had made videos of many classes available for free on the Internet, were sued (https://www.nytimes.com/2015/02/13/education/harvard-and-mit-sued-over-failing-to-caption-online-courses.html) for being out of compliance with the Americans With Disabilities Act. The court was asked for an injunction requiring them to close caption all the material and also to rectify other issues, such as low color contrast that made the material challenging for those with vision disabilities. Berkeley was also sued (https://www.forbes.com/sites/prestoncooper2/2017/03/07/free-education-runs-afoul-of-the-bureaucrats/#3dcea05415b4), and to avoid the expense of bringing 43,000 hours of free online content into compliance they just took it offline.

[Wander]

"I can tell you that the generation of men coming of age amidst all this stuff are learning that you cannot get away with treating women like objects!"

Does it count as a PPB violation if a moderator illegally entraps you into saying it?

[rasputin]

Harvard and MIT, who had made videos of many classes available for free on the Internet, were sued (https://www.nytimes.com/2015/02/13/education/harvard-and-mit-sued-over-failing-to-caption-online-courses.html) for being out of compliance with the Americans With Disabilities Act. The court was asked for an injunction requiring them to close caption all the material and also to rectify other issues, such as low color contrast that made the material challenging for those with vision disabilities. Berkeley was also sued (https://www.forbes.com/sites/prestoncooper2/2017/03/07/free-education-runs-afoul-of-the-bureaucrats/#3dcea05415b4), and to avoid the expense of bringing 43,000 hours of free online content into compliance they just took it offline.

This is not news to people like me who are attorneys representing schools. The U.S. Department of Education's Office for Civil Rights is in charge of enforcement for discrimination claims against school districts. They have been particularly watchful about disability discrimination in recent years, and website accessibility has been their issue du jour.

[Bostondevil]

This is not news to people like me who are attorneys representing schools. The U.S. Department of Education's Office for Civil Rights is in charge of enforcement for discrimination claims against school districts. They have been particularly watchful about disability discrimination in recent years, and website accessibility has been their issue du jour.

We're getting a bit off topic here. But I will say this, I sure wish some of these organizations that seek to help the disabled would work with schools to find funding for things like close captioning videos instead of suing them. Lawyers are necessary in many cases, but really, National Association for the Deaf, if you've got money to pay lawyers to sue Harvard, surely you could hire someone to competently close caption video lectures instead.

[bundabergdevil]

While many lament that society has not treated sexual harassment seriously enough for a loooong time, I would hope that seeing a super-rich dude forced out of his $billion+ mega-sports business and seeing a man seemingly destined for the senate upended at the last minute would make this a week where some positive things happened.

Meanwhile... the NFL network stuff is just beyond gross.

-Jason "I'll say this... my sons are both in college and I can tell you that the generation of men coming of age amidst all this stuff are learning that you cannot get away with treating women like objects!" Evans


To add to your comments ---- There are some other interesting mechanisms of consequence that are beginning to take shape. I work for a large publicly traded company and support our IR team with investors that factor environmental and social considerations into their portfolio decisions. I was speaking with one of our senior leaders who sits on the board of another company that has started to receive investor questions about what essentially equates to sexual harassment risk.

Here's an article (https://www.barrons.com/articles/sexual-harassment-is-becoming-a-serious-investment-risk-1509766872) on the subject. It obviously makes sense in the entertainment business. Lauer, O'Reilly, Weinstein, Spacey, etc all drove a lot of revenue for their companies and their departures will likely impact the bottom line in multiple ways. You could imagine a scenario in which, let's say, Mark Zuckerberg was accused by several dozen women of exposing himself during the rise of Facebook (cut scenes from The Social Network, ya know). Even with his share holdings, he'd receive tremendous pressure to step down. It's not the jail time he'd deserve in this hypothetical situation but it is a form of consequence. Loss of stature, public shaming, corrosion of legacy...

Thank goodness for the benevolence of Wall Street...

[Troublemaker]

Weinstein accuser Melissa Thompson releases a video (from a laptop camera) of Weinstein behaving inappropriately with her at a business meeting:

https://news.sky.com/story/world-exclusive-video-shows-harvey-weinstein-behaving-inappropriately-with-businesswoman-11496038

It's pretty disgusting behavior from Weinstein, who utilizes his power over her for a gropefest.

Thompson alleges that Weinstein ends up raping her later on the same day. (She has no video of that, though.)

[JasonEvans]

Weinstein accuser Melissa Thompson releases a video (from a laptop camera) of Weinstein behaving inappropriately with her at a business meeting:

https://news.sky.com/story/world-exclusive-video-shows-harvey-weinstein-behaving-inappropriately-with-businesswoman-11496038

It's pretty disgusting behavior from Weinstein, who utilizes his power over her for a gropefest.

Thompson alleges that Weinstein ends up raping her later on the same day. (She has no video of that, though.)

That is one of the most horrifying things I have seen lately. So terrible...