Duke student-athletes are actually students

[jimsumner]

http://www.goduke.com/ViewArticle.dbml?DB_LANG=C&ATCLID=211677452&DB_OEM_ID=4200

[devildeac]

http://www.goduke.com/ViewArticle.dbml?DB_LANG=C&ATCLID=211677452&DB_OEM_ID=4200

Thanks for finding and posting, Jim!

Upon further review, I see some key data:

Overall Duke GSR=97, tied for 3rd among all FBS schools; "u"nc=84 (last in acc)

Duke FB=96, tied for 3rd among all FBS schools; "u"nc=66 (last in acc)

Duke MBB=100, tied for 1st in nation; "u"nc=40 (last in acc)

I'm not the brightest person on DBR but I'm seeing a trend here...

:rolleyes:;)

Those #$%@ers can cheat, lie, hire lawyers, deflect, deny, duck, dodge and delay and win champeenships (sic), but when it comes to adding "students" to athletes, they are miserable, pathetic failures.:mad:

[MarkD83]

Jim. I am very proud of Duke student athletes. However the unc scandal has made me cynical. The article quotes graduation rates and unc athletes who took the fraudulent classes had these count toward graduation. File this under collateral damage but graduation rates no longer impress me when describing scholarship

[Stray Gator]

http://www.goduke.com/ViewArticle.dbml?DB_LANG=C&ATCLID=211677452&DB_OEM_ID=4200

I believe we can fairly regard a high graduation rate for Duke student-athletes as an impressive achievement, because we can be reasonably confident that the student-athletes legitimately earned the requisite credits by actually attending classes and satisfactorily completing the academic work required to pass those courses. But we should remain mindful of the fact that, at some colleges, a high graduation rate among athletes does not necessarily mean that those who have been awarded degrees genuinely qualified as "students" in the commonly understood sense. As we've recently learned, if a school wants to treat fake courses requiring no attendance and no legitimate academic work as creditable, it is free to do so without consequence.

[devildeac]

I believe we can fairly regard a high graduation rate for Duke student-athletes as an impressive achievement, because we can be reasonably confident that the student-athletes legitimately earned the requisite credits by actually attending classes and satisfactorily completing the academic work required to pass those courses. But we should remain mindful of the fact that, at some colleges, a high graduation rate among athletes does not necessarily mean that those who have been awarded degrees genuinely qualified as "students" in the commonly understood sense. As we've recently learned, if a school wants to treat fake courses requiring no attendance and no legitimate academic work as creditable, it is free to do so without consequence.

And, even with rampant and persistent cheating over decades, you have one school in the Triangle that finished last in each category I quoted above. I guess that one institution can't even cheat well enough to graduate their athletes:rolleyes::mad:. Pathetic and shameful. But, bubba got his raise, the banners still hang and there are no sanctions/penalties. Almost unfathomable.

[BD80]

... As we've recently learned, if a school wants to treat fake courses requiring no attendance and no legitimate academic work as creditable, it is free to do so without consequence.

And yet, even with fake classes, administration taking exams and preparing papers for the athletes, and easy grades, unc STILL lags behind!

[jimsumner]

At least in theory, UNC has eliminated all questionable classes and their current student-athletes do not benefit from any perceived irregularities.

In theory.

But I suspect we have enough threads on the topic of UNC's athletic-academic profile.

Perhaps, we could, perchance, maybe focus on Duke with this one.

[Bob Green]

But I suspect we have enough threads on the topic of UNC's athletic-academic profile.

Perhaps, we could, perchance, maybe focus on Duke with this one.

Fantastic idea! I second the motion.

[BD80]

At least in theory, UNC has eliminated all questionable classes and their current student-athletes do not benefit from any perceived irregularities.

In theory.

But I suspect we have enough threads on the topic of UNC's athletic-academic profile.

Perhaps, we could, perchance, maybe focus on Duke with this one.

There is no light without dark

[MarkD83]

(I will remove my cynical hat).

The Duke graduation rates are a great accomplishment. We also know that Coach K takes academic work seriously by his recent suspensions of three players for missing class.

[PackMan97]

At least in theory, UNC has eliminated all questionable classes and their current student-athletes do not benefit from any perceived irregularities.

In theory.

7779

In other news, NC State set a school record for the APR at 85% and finished ahead of UNC.

https://packinsider.com/2017/11/08/nc-state-tops-unc-graduation-success-rate/

I do admit to being a little worried that the student athlete graduation rate is actually ahead of the general population graduation rate.

[duketaylor]

Packman said, "I do admit to being a little worried that the student athlete graduation rate is actually ahead of the general population graduation rate."

I understand your concern here but I do believe at Duke this is a regular occurrence as I remember. Over my 5 years on the golf team we graduated all but one. That would be about 29 out of 30. Basketball and football have usually been between 92-97% I believe. If my recollection is wrong I apologize. I know many "Olympic" sports regularly have several all-conference academic winners. I think this is partly due to having to be a good time manager to juggle academics and sports at the same time, coupled with the aid of tutors and assistance if needed. Chris Kennedy was our academic advisor person when I was in school and he was an excellent source to answer questions and make recommendations as to how to manage school and practice/games.

I'm not sure that applies a lot at other schools, but it did at Duke in the 80's and since.

[grad_devil]

I do admit to being a little worried that the student athlete graduation rate is actually ahead of the general population graduation rate.

I work with a D2 school, and it's the case across the entire division. D2 student-athletes graduate at a higher rate than their non-athlete peers, and have a higher mean GPA.

[MCFinARL]

7779

In other news, NC State set a school record for the APR at 85% and finished ahead of UNC.

https://packinsider.com/2017/11/08/nc-state-tops-unc-graduation-success-rate/

I do admit to being a little worried that the student athlete graduation rate is actually ahead of the general population graduation rate.

That could be because often athletes have advisors or academic coordinators whose job it is to make sure they attend class and do their work, and ordinary students don't. So it's easier for a non-athlete to get lost along the way. While it is, in one sense, an advantage to athletes to have this kind of extra supervision (but perhaps not in another as they delay learning the hard lessons of managing one's own time), it isn't a sign that athletes are not doing their own work--only that the institution has more of an incentive to make sure athletes stay on course academically than it does for other students.

[grad_devil]

That could be because often athletes have advisors or academic coordinators whose job it is to make sure they attend class and do their work, and ordinary students don't. So it's easier for a non-athlete to get lost along the way. While it is, in one sense, an advantage to athletes to have this kind of extra supervision (but perhaps not in another as they delay learning the hard lessons of managing one's own time), it isn't a sign that athletes are not doing their own work--only that the institution has more of an incentive to make sure athletes stay on course academically than it does for other students.

That's possible at D1, but it doesn't explain the phenomenon at D2 - my school, in particular. We don't have an academic support department for athletics, and the student-athlete receives no additional support than the student body at large.

My hypothesis has always been that student-athletes here have less free time than do non-athletes, so therefore they manage it better (or they have less time to mismanage?)

[Duke95]

As the graph shows and other research has indicated, the NCAA's graduation rates are bunk. Keep in mind, there's a difference between the FGR (fed graduation rate) and the NCAA's GSR.
If you want to see some of the research showing why NCAA's grad rates are wrong, take a look at Southall's research at CSRI.

Link here: http://csri-sc.org/research/

Also keep in mind that graduation does not mean education. UNC is the poster institution for that distinction.

[jimsumner]

More evidence.

http://www.goduke.com/ViewArticle.dbml?DB_LANG=C&ATCLID=211677730&DB_OEM_ID=4200

[UrinalCake]

Failing a fake class... is that like being fired on your day off?

[Wander]

Well, the numbers are for 2007-2010. So the number will drop when the stats start reflecting the Coach K OAD era, right? Or do those sorts of cases get removed from these stats?

[jimsumner]

Well, the numbers are for 2007-2010. So the number will drop when the stats start reflecting the Coach K OAD era, right? Or do those sorts of cases get removed from these stats?

"allows for the removal of those individuals from the cohort who left Duke in good academic standing."

[Bluedog]

That's possible at D1, but it doesn't explain the phenomenon at D2 - my school, in particular. We don't have an academic support department for athletics, and the student-athlete receives no additional support than the student body at large.

My hypothesis has always been that student-athletes here have less free time than do non-athletes, so therefore they manage it better (or they have less time to mismanage?)

Another theory could be that athletes choose less demanding majors that have higher rates of success and tend to be in courses with other athletes, a phenomenon known as "clustering (https://www.insidehighered.com/news/2008/11/20/cluster)." We certainly know that is the case at big time college football/basketball programs where the athletes are primarily in a couple majors (and they can also thus provide support to each other if needed). Having said that, I had a couple athletes in my courses during my engineering coursework at Duke and was mightily impressed with how they handled it.

[uh_no]

Another theory could be that athletes choose less demanding majors that have higher rates of success and tend to be in courses with other athletes, a phenomenon known as "clustering (https://www.insidehighered.com/news/2008/11/20/cluster)." We certainly know that is the case at big time college football/basketball programs where the athletes are primarily in a couple majors (and they can also thus provide support to each other if needed). Having said that, I had a couple athletes in my courses during my engineering coursework at Duke and was mightily impressed with how they handled it.

clustering also helps the coaches/tutors/whomever manage things. I know the bball team collects everyone's syllabi at the begining of the semester so they know when projects/HW/exams are due. It's simply easier to keep everyone accountable if they're all in the same class. It also makes less work to find tutors.

Lets also remember these guys are friends. How many of us took a class so we could be with our friends? I know I did....so its unsurprising that teammates would seek to try to take classes together. Their selection is also heavily limited by their practice schedules. I knew some engineers too, and I knew they sometimes had to make sacrifices in which classes they could take. Unfortunate reality of being a D1 athlete in any sport.

[ikiru36]

Thanks for finding and posting, Jim!

Upon further review, I see some key data:

Overall Duke GSR=97, tied for 3rd among all FBS schools; "u"nc=84 (last in acc)

Duke FB=96, tied for 3rd among all FBS schools; "u"nc=66 (last in acc)

Duke MBB=100, tied for 1st in nation; "u"nc=40 (last in acc)

I'm not the brightest person on DBR but I'm seeing a trend here...

roll-eyes;)

Those #$%@ers can cheat, lie, hire lawyers, deflect, deny, duck, dodge and delay and win champeenships (sic), but when it comes to adding "students" to athletes, they are miserable, pathetic failures.:mad:

So hard to reconcile those UNC numbers with the linked article reviewing the mid-oughts period: unc-scores-well-in-latest-gsr-figures (http://www.espn.com/blog/north-carolina-basketball/post/_/id/10394/unc-scores-well-in-latest-gsr-figures). Unless something changed around 2009...? :rolleyes: :mad:

Go Duke!!!!! Go Blue Devils!!!!!! GTHCGTH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[UrinalCake]

Well, the numbers are for 2007-2010. So the number will drop when the stats start reflecting the Coach K OAD era, right? Or do those sorts of cases get removed from these stats?

I believe that is a typo in the article, it is supposed to read 2009-2010. Students are given a six year window to graduate, so the incoming class of 2009 would be the first year that data would be available in the spring of 2016. I could be wrong though.

[devildeac]

I believe that is a typo in the article, it is supposed to read 2009-2010. Students are given a six year window to graduate, so the incoming class of 2009 would be the first year that data would be available in the spring of 2016. I could be wrong though.

Blame SACS. :rolleyes::mad: