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JasonEvans
11-06-2017, 04:43 PM
No Grayson on the AP All-American (http://collegebasketball.ap.org/article/michigan-states-bridges-tops-ap-preseason-all-america-team) team.


Michigan State's Miles Bridges has everyone's attention.

The 6-foot-7 sophomore headlines The Associated Press preseason All-America team as the leading vote-getter by a wide margin for the five-player squad. Bridges received 61 votes from the 65-member national media panel that selects the weekly AP Top 25 poll, 14 more than Notre Dame senior forward Bonzie Colson — the preseason Atlantic Coast Conference player of the year and the No. 2 vote-getter.

Arizona junior Allonzo Trier (39 votes), Villanova junior Jalen Brunson (33) and Missouri freshman Michael Porter Jr. (30) rounded out the rest of the five-man team released Monday.

-Jason "Joel Berry had 25 votes and Grayson had 20 to just miss making the first team" Evans

uh_no
11-06-2017, 06:01 PM
No Grayson on the AP All-American (http://collegebasketball.ap.org/article/michigan-states-bridges-tops-ap-preseason-all-america-team) team.



-Jason "Joel Berry had 25 votes and Grayson had 20 to just miss making the first team" Evans

Eh. Grayson had a down year last year and most people aren't going to have been following how he looks in pre-season. Nor will they have paid attention enough to know he was injured last year.

I lost interest the year king barnes was on the team.

DBFAN
11-06-2017, 06:59 PM
Eh. Grayson had a down year last year and most people aren't going to have been following how he looks in pre-season. Nor will they have paid attention enough to know he was injured last year.

I lost interest the year king barnes was on the team.

I agree on the Grayson part. What I don’t understand is Bagley being snubbed. Not that any of this matters because it only matters at end of season, but I am curious as to why Bagley didn’t get a nod.

kAzE
11-06-2017, 07:38 PM
The majority of people (people who aren't plugged into college bball) only watch the NCAA tournament, and pretty much get their opinion of college basketball players by the most recent final four.

I'm not surprised he's not on the list, but there's no freaking way Grayson Allen isn't one of the top 5 players in the country right now. But then again, nobody is going to care who was on the preseason list. It's the postseason team that counts.

Bob Green
11-06-2017, 07:52 PM
But then again, nobody is going to care who was on the preseason list. It's the postseason team that counts.

Exactly!

Grayson Allen is going to be on of the best players in the nation this season. I look forward to seeing the postseason list. His preseason ranking suffers due to last season's performance in which he played hurt all year.

plimnko
11-06-2017, 08:06 PM
if they even care about it, i appreciate the motivation to prove them wrong.

elvis14
11-07-2017, 09:57 AM
Last year, coming off a healthy, productive Soph. season, wasn't Grayson the preseason NPOY? This year, coming off an injury-riddled Jr. year, Grayson gets snubbed. I hope he just goes out and proves them all wrong!

Henderson
11-07-2017, 10:50 AM
I think playing on such a loaded team hurts guys like Grayson Allen and the rest of Duke's starting 5. This team could have pretty balanced scoring averages overall with a rotation of incredible games by different players.

Players named to the first team are likely to dominate their teams' numbers. AP voters love gaudy numbers, in part because it makes it hard for anyone to question their choices.

That holds true for AP National POY at the end of the season too. In the past 15 years, only one POY has also played on the national title team (Anthony Davis in 2012). The last time Duke won the natty with an AP POY was 2001 with Shane Battier.

royalblue
11-07-2017, 10:55 AM
As good as this Duke TEAM could be this year how many on here would take Allen being ranked the 7th best player in the country at the end of the year?

Troublemaker
11-07-2017, 11:03 AM
I think playing on such a loaded team hurts guys like Grayson Allen and the rest of Duke's starting 5. This team could have pretty balanced scoring averages overall with a rotation of incredible games by different players.

Players named to the first team are likely to dominate their teams' numbers. AP voters love gaudy numbers, in part because it makes it hard for anyone to question their choices.

That holds true for AP National POY at the end of the season too. In the past 15 years, only one POY has also played on the national title team (Anthony Davis in 2012). The last time Duke won the natty with an AP POY was 2001 with Shane Battier.

I thought something similar very early in the offseason, but Grayson has just looked soooo good so far in the various practices and exhibitions we've seen (although obviously he has to do it against real competition). I think the folks predicting somewhere around 20ppg for him will be right, and he'll have a good shot at NPOY and a retired jersey.

Coach K mentioned in the Bowie St postgame that Grayson has improved his balance on his drives, which will keep him healthy and help his finishes and interior passing.

dukelifer
11-07-2017, 11:37 AM
No Grayson on the AP All-American (http://collegebasketball.ap.org/article/michigan-states-bridges-tops-ap-preseason-all-america-team) team.



-Jason "Joel Berry had 25 votes and Grayson had 20 to just miss making the first team" Evans

Extra motivation to have a stellar senior year.

luvdahops
11-07-2017, 12:07 PM
No Grayson on the AP All-American (http://collegebasketball.ap.org/article/michigan-states-bridges-tops-ap-preseason-all-america-team) team.



-Jason "Joel Berry had 25 votes and Grayson had 20 to just miss making the first team" Evans

Bridges is on the cover of the SI College Basketball Preview this week, too (they also rank Sparty #1, followed by Arizona, Duke and Wichita State). I am really looking forward to our game with MSU in the Champions Classic, and particularly how well Bagley, Javin and Trent do in defending Bridges. I think that combo has the potential to really disrupt and contain him.

cato
11-07-2017, 12:22 PM
I thought something similar very early in the offseason, but Grayson has just looked soooo good so far in the various practices and exhibitions we've seen (although obviously he has to do it against real competition). I think the folks predicting somewhere around 20ppg for him will be right, and he'll have a good shot at NPOY and a retired jersey.

Coach K mentioned in the Bowie St postgame that Grayson has improved his balance on his drives, which will keep him healthy and help his finishes and interior passing.

K has also hyped Grayson’s shooting, saying he is one of the best pure shooters.

With Luke gone and no one to replace Jayson as a high volume/next-level-scoring-ability scorer, Grayson is going to be given the opportunity to hunt his shot as a primary weapon.

If he seizes that role, shoots above 40% from 3 and combines that with decent numbers finishing at the rim/converting free throws, he is going to score a ton of points and Duke is going to do very well (assuming no major injuries/dismissals, etc.)

That should be enough to secure a spot on one of the teams. But let’s see what happens once the games get going.

johnb
11-07-2017, 12:48 PM
I agree on the Grayson part. What I don’t understand is Bagley being snubbed. Not that any of this matters because it only matters at end of season, but I am curious as to why Bagley didn’t get a nod.

Preseason polls probably go heavy on upperclassmen and safety. The only frosh was ranked #2 to Bagley, and he's on a team that isn't ranked in the top 25 (ie, he should score 20 ppg). Bagley is on a team with 4 of the 8 top freshman and an elite senior and a potentially elite sophomore or 2, so it's not at all clear which of those might end up an all american.

English
11-07-2017, 01:01 PM
K has also hyped Grayson’s shooting, saying he is one of the best pure shooters.

With Luke gone and no one to replace Jayson as a high volume/next-level-scoring-ability scorer, Grayson is going to be given the opportunity to hunt his shot as a primary weapon.

If he seizes that role, shoots above 40% from 3 and combines that with decent numbers finishing at the rim/converting free throws, he is going to score a ton of points and Duke is going to do very well (assuming no major injuries/dismissals, etc.)

That should be enough to secure a spot on one of the teams. But let’s see what happens once the games get going.

Puzzling phrase--certainly Luke is gone, there's no question about that, but there isn't a glaring void in the scoring load for this team. Bagley, Trent Jr., and Carter Jr. are ALL well-known "next-level" scorers who've been the unquestioned go-to offensive guys on their respective junior teams. I'd agree that Grayson will have an opportunity to hunt his shot, but Luke+Jayson has been replaced very adequately, if not exceptionally, on offense by the three plus Trevon.

That said, I have full confidence that the chemistry and team dynamic on the offensive end will work out with what appear to be a glut of unselfish top talent who seem as willing to pile up dimes as deuces.

ChillinDuke
11-07-2017, 01:08 PM
I thought something similar very early in the offseason, but Grayson has just looked soooo good so far in the various practices and exhibitions we've seen (although obviously he has to do it against real competition). I think the folks predicting somewhere around 20ppg for him will be right, and he'll have a good shot at NPOY and a retired jersey.

Coach K mentioned in the Bowie St postgame that Grayson has improved his balance on his drives, which will keep him healthy and help his finishes and interior passing.

Wouldn't it be something, truly something, if Grayson went from most hated player in college hoops last year to NPOY this year? I mean talk about a swan song.

To do it, he'd have to not only put up the stats and wins, but he'd have to re-accrue all the lost goodwill from last year. At least from the NPOY voters. He'll never get it back from the public / casual fans.

- Chillin

cato
11-07-2017, 01:42 PM
Puzzling phrase--certainly Luke is gone, there's no question about that, but there isn't a glaring void in the scoring load for this team. Bagley, Trent Jr., and Carter Jr. are ALL well-known "next-level" scorers who've been the unquestioned go-to offensive guys on their respective junior teams. I'd agree that Grayson will have an opportunity to hunt his shot, but Luke+Jayson has been replaced very adequately, if not exceptionally, on offense by the three plus Trevon.

That said, I have full confidence that the chemistry and team dynamic on the offensive end will work out with what appear to be a glut of unselfish top talent who seem as willing to pile up dimes as deuces.

Do you think that Bagley, Trent and Carter are going to take as many shots as Kennard and Tatum did?

Bluedog
11-07-2017, 01:51 PM
Wouldn't it be something, truly something, if Grayson went from most hated player in college hoops last year to NPOY this year? I mean talk about a swan song.

To do it, he'd have to not only put up the stats and wins, but he'd have to re-accrue all the lost goodwill from last year. At least from the NPOY voters. He'll never get it back from the public / casual fans.

- Chillin

Yeah, one is not mutually exclusive from the other (which I realize you basically acknolwedge in your last sentence). I anticipate he will be the most hated player in college hoops this year again regardless of how well he performs (even if he is NPOY). If he performs well, that gives him an even higher profile and more coverage for hate -- and it obviously helps this Duke team, so that's what I'm hoping for!

jimsumner
11-07-2017, 02:31 PM
Wouldn't it be something, truly something, if Grayson went from most hated player in college hoops last year to NPOY this year? I mean talk about a swan song.

To do it, he'd have to not only put up the stats and wins, but he'd have to re-accrue all the lost goodwill from last year. At least from the NPOY voters. He'll never get it back from the public / casual fans.

- Chillin

Christian Laettner was the most hated player in college hoops and the NPOY in the same year.

So was J.J. Redick.

We've talked about this in another thread but Laettner in '91 and '92, Battier in "01 and Jason Williams in '01 and '02 are players who averaged around or more than 20 ppg on loaded teams, with four or five double-digit scorers. We can just as easily make the case that surrounding Allen with so many low-post options will enhance his ability to get points on the perimeter and in transition.

ChillinDuke
11-07-2017, 02:42 PM
Christian Laettner was the most hated player in college hoops and the NPOY in the same year.

So was J.J. Redick.

We've talked about this in another thread but Laettner in '91 and '92, Battier in "01 and Jason Williams in '01 and '02 are players who averaged around or more than 20 ppg on loaded teams, with four or five double-digit scorers. We can just as easily make the case that surrounding Allen with so many low-post options will enhance his ability to get points on the perimeter and in transition.

That's a tad disingenuous though, Jim. J.J. Redick never did anything to make himself hated, AFAIK, other than be utterly superb at shooting and go to Duke.

Grayson clearly did something(s) to earn his hatred. So while your comparison may be true, in and of itself, it equates situations that aren't all that similar, at least to me. As far as the voters go, they may dislike a player but they certainly wouldn't vote against him in the event that he's a spectacular player. At least I like to believe that's how it works. In Grayson's case, I imagine more than a handful of voters would vote against him given his on-court behavior, despite his being a spectacular player. But maybe I'm wrong.

Now, Laettner may be a totally different story. Although, that was barely the time where I start having conscious memory.

- Chillin

flyingdutchdevil
11-07-2017, 02:52 PM
That's a tad disingenuous though, Jim. J.J. Redick never did anything to make himself hated, AFAIK, other than be utterly superb at shooting and go to Duke.

Grayson clearly did something(s) to earn his hatred. So while your comparison may be true, in and of itself, it equates situations that aren't all that similar, at least to me. As far as the voters go, they may dislike a player but they certainly wouldn't vote against him in the event that he's a spectacular player. At least I like to believe that's how it works. In Grayson's case, I imagine more than a handful of voters would vote against him given his on-court behavior, despite his being a spectacular player. But maybe I'm wrong.

Now, Laettner may be a totally different story. Although, that was barely the time where I start having conscious memory.

- Chillin

Yup. Duke clearly adds to the hatred. So does being a white kid who's good at basketball (I never understood this one, but the theory does hold water). But I'd argue that most of the hatred/mockery towards Grayson is about the tripping and the tantrums, not the Duke/white kid variables.

Grayson wouldn't have been the face of college ball last year had he not tripped a player. Most casual fans wouldn't know who Grayson was if it wasn't for the incidents.

UrinalCake
11-07-2017, 02:55 PM
Pretty good commentary on the latest NBC CBB podcast about preseason POY versus end of season POY for the past few years. Often the guy everyone thinks is the surefire guy ends up not being it for a variety of reasons. If I remember correctly,

2017
Pre: Grayson Allen
Final: Frank Mason

2016
Pre: ?
Final: Buddy Hield

2015
Pre: Jahlil Okafor
Final: Frank Kaminski

2014
Pre: Wiggins or Parker?
Final: Doug McDermott

You can go back even further and see a similar trend. Strangely, thenoresesson POY rarely actually wins it at the end of the season, and the final winner is often nobody really saw at the beginning of the season.

Bluedog
11-07-2017, 03:03 PM
Yup. Duke clearly adds to the hatred. So does being a white kid who's good at basketball (I never understood this one, but the theory does hold water). But I'd argue that most of the hatred/mockery towards Grayson is about the tripping and the tantrums, not the Duke/white kid variables.

Grayson wouldn't have been the face of college ball last year had he not tripped a player. Most casual fans wouldn't know who Grayson was if it wasn't for the incidents.

I dunno, do most casual fans know who Dillon Brooks is?? He was an all-american player who intentionally kicked someone in the balls in a game...(at least, based on the referees asssment of it, it was intentional). Nobody seemed to care about that and I would argue that's a single worse incident than Grayson's tripping incidents -- the few articles I saw about that game actually mentioned Grayson Allen more than Dillon Brooks in them, oddly.

But, I certainly agree with you that if the incident hadn't occurred, obviously there would be far far fewer people talking about him. He'd be like Luke Kennard was (who did often get booed in fan's home arenas because they just assumed he was Grayson). But certainly Grayson's circumstances (Duke, white guy) leads to magnified criticism. Heck, nobody even really cared when the Wake Forest player tackled Grayson near the bench - he was assessed a T and nary an article/fan outcry...I think at this point though Grayson is better at blocking it all out and staying focused (with Coach K's help certainly) than I am as a fan!

uh_no
11-07-2017, 03:09 PM
Yup. Duke clearly adds to the hatred. So does being a white kid who's good at basketball (I never understood this one, but the theory does hold water). But I'd argue that most of the hatred/mockery towards Grayson is about the tripping and the tantrums, not the Duke/white kid variables.

Grayson wouldn't have been the face of college ball last year had he not tripped a player. Most casual fans wouldn't know who Grayson was if it wasn't for the incidents.

The day after duke beat wisconsin and I came into work (at noon....perhaps mildly red-eyed), the first thing I heard from a state fan was "grayson allen.....his face, I just want to punch it"

The hate was there ever since he dove for that ball. Grayson poured on the jet fuel.

jimsumner
11-07-2017, 03:25 PM
That's a tad disingenuous though, Jim. J.J. Redick never did anything to make himself hated, AFAIK, other than be utterly superb at shooting and go to Duke.

Grayson clearly did something(s) to earn his hatred. So while your comparison may be true, in and of itself, it equates situations that aren't all that similar, at least to me. As far as the voters go, they may dislike a player but they certainly wouldn't vote against him in the event that he's a spectacular player. At least I like to believe that's how it works. In Grayson's case, I imagine more than a handful of voters would vote against him given his on-court behavior, despite his being a spectacular player. But maybe I'm wrong.

Now, Laettner may be a totally different story. Although, that was barely the time where I start having conscious memory.

- Chillin

My point was that being hated doesn't preclude winning awards.

And trust me, J.J. Redick was hated at the collegiate level. He endured more road abuse than you can imagine.

sagegrouse
11-07-2017, 03:27 PM
Yup. Duke clearly adds to the hatred. So does being a white kid who's good at basketball (I never understood this one, but the theory does hold water). But I'd argue that most of the hatred/mockery towards Grayson is about the tripping and the tantrums, not the Duke/white kid variables.

Grayson wouldn't have been the face of college ball last year had he not tripped a player. Most casual fans wouldn't know who Grayson was if it wasn't for the incidents.

Look, "hatred" of college basketball players is like the commentary on web articles -- it represents the views of a small and hard-bitten minority and should be largely ignored. In the case of certain Duke players, I believe it represents the palpable, physical jealousy of pimply-faced guys that can't believe someone else is so good.

I think "hatred" of Christian Laettner is mostly in retrospect, but not Bobby Hurley, who provoked disdain from many quarters. I mean, here is a guy that looked like the captain of your intramural team, and he is first team All-American. Not fair! Why not me? And, J.J. -- oh, my Godf! This is the guy you refused to vote for for class president because he was too good-looking. He can't be any good at basketball!

Grayson is more complicated. I mean, he looks like both Ted Cruz and the late Senator Joe McCarthy. Then there are tripping incidents. Then there is the consequent non-stop coverage of every hiccough he makes, on or off the court. Besides, he'll cut your heart out on the basketball court.

flyingdutchdevil
11-07-2017, 03:35 PM
Look, "hatred" of college basketball players is like the commentary on web articles -- it represents the views of a small and hard-bitten minority and should be largely ignored. In the case of certain Duke players, I believe it represents the palpable, physical jealousy of pimply-faced guys that can't believe someone else is so good.

I think "hatred" of Christian Laettner is mostly in retrospect, but not Bobby Hurley, who provoked disdain from many quarters. I mean, here is a guy that looked like the captain of your intramural team, and he is first team All-American. Not fair! Why not me? And, J.J. -- oh, my Godf! This is the guy you refused to vote for for class president because he was too good-looking. He can't be any good at basketball!

Grayson is more complicated. I mean, he looks like both Ted Cruz and the late Senator Joe McCarthy. Then there are tripping incidents. Then there is the consequent non-stop coverage of every hiccough he makes, on or off the court. Besides, he'll cut your heart out on the basketball court.

You're mixing up JJ in the NBA and JJ in college. JJ in college was not attractive.

cato
11-07-2017, 03:56 PM
You're mixing up JJ in the NBA and JJ in college. JJ in college was not attractive.

Dude. You clearly do not remember the “Marry Me JJ” sign. Or the person holding the sign.

ChillinDuke
11-07-2017, 03:57 PM
My point was that being hated doesn't preclude winning awards.

And trust me, J.J. Redick was hated at the collegiate level. He endured more road abuse than you can imagine.

Your point is well taken. And I believe mine is too.

My point is that being hated by your own negative acts (Grayson Allen) requires a level of excellence far superior than normal (JJ Redick) in order to re-attract the votes you otherwise would have received in NPOY/award voting.

- Chillin

devildeac
11-07-2017, 04:21 PM
Dude. You clearly do not remember the “Marry Me JJ” sign. Or the person holding the sign.

Ozzie still has that photo. Just sayin'...

:o

elvis14
11-07-2017, 04:22 PM
Look, "hatred" of college basketball players is like the commentary on web articles -- it represents the views of a small and hard-bitten minority and should be largely ignored.

Have to tell you, IMHO (where the H is silent) that I wish this statement was true....but it's not. Hatred of Duke's most hated player is is far from a minority. Pretty much anyone that's not a Duke fan hates GA, hated JJ, hated Christian and Bobby, etc. It might be a minority of the overall population but not of college basketball fans. I do feel like the Duke-hate has lessened over the last 5-10 years (which would be post-JJ) but it's still there and it's very much there for GA. Which is why I hope GA kills it this year and wins NPOY.

jimsumner
11-07-2017, 05:45 PM
Your point is well taken. And I believe mine is too.

My point is that being hated by your own negative acts (Grayson Allen) requires a level of excellence far superior than normal (JJ Redick) in order to re-attract the votes you otherwise would have received in NPOY/award voting.

- Chillin

Much of the antipathy towards Laettner did in fact originate from a negative act.

I've long maintained that the '91 Duke-UNLV game was the last time Duke took the floor as loveable underdogs, David slaying the Runnin' Rebel Goliath.

It changed in 1992. Duke was Goliath then and I don't think they've ever really shed that moniker. Polls seem to show that more people love Duke than love any other college program and more people hate Duke then hate any other college program. But few people who have strong feelings about college basketball lack strong feelings about Duke.

As an aside, how many of the people who "hate" Grayson Allen are AP, Wooden, Naismith, Robertson, et. al. voters?

Not many, I suspect. Don't confuse inflammatory click-bait with anything other than clickbait.

uh_no
11-07-2017, 06:04 PM
Much of the antipathy towards Laettner did in fact originate from a negative act.

I've long maintained that the '91 Duke-UNLV game was the last time Duke took the floor as loveable underdogs, David slaying the Runnin' Rebel Goliath.

It changed in 1992. Duke was Goliath then and I don't think they've ever really shed that moniker. Polls seem to show that more people love Duke than love any other college program and more people hate Duke then hate any other college program. But few people who have strong feelings about college basketball lack strong feelings about Duke.

As an aside, how many of the people who "hate" Grayson Allen are AP, Wooden, Naismith, Robertson, et. al. voters?

Not many, I suspect. Don't confuse inflammatory click-bait with anything other than clickbait.

Dunno...does anyone at ESPN vote on any of those committees?

jimsumner
11-07-2017, 06:58 PM
Dunno...does anyone at ESPN vote on any of those committees?

Again, just because ESPN runs articles for the delight of Duke-haters, it doesn't necessarily mean the people writing and running the articles actually hate Duke.

Or that they don't hate Duke.

It's irrelevant. They just know what leads people to click on the links and if Duke-hate leads to clicks, then Duke-hate it is.

sagegrouse
11-07-2017, 07:11 PM
Again, just because ESPN runs articles for the delight of Duke-haters, it doesn't necessarily mean the people writing and running the articles actually hate Duke.

Or that they don't hate Duke.

It's irrelevant. They just know what leads people to click on the links and if Duke-hate leads to clicks, then Duke-hate it is.

Let's be clear. The two punchiest statements in all of college sports are "Let's go Duke!" and "I hate Duke." Live with it.

Focus on the positive: the most chilling cheers of "Let's go Duke" I have heard were at the end of the Wisconsin-Kentucky game at the Final Four in 2015. Suddenly, amidst all the Wisconsin cheering, you heard this Duke cheer that grew louder and louder and took over the arena. Similarly, in Duke's comeback victory at Notre Dame, you could hear the cheer beginning and growing among the 3,000 Duke fans in the crowd of 80,000 in South Bend.

"I hate Duke." Nothing comparable. "I hate Kentucky!" What does that mean? "I hate Carolina!" True, but similarly ambiguous. (Now "Go to hell, Carolina, go to hell!" That's one of a kind but is more of a singsong cheer.)

cato
11-07-2017, 07:35 PM
Let's be clear. The two punchiest statements in all of college sports are "Let's go Duke!"* and "I hate Duke." Live with it.


And its varients, some of which are not fit for print. DD#F.