A DBR Goodbye

[walras]

I joined the Duke faculty in 1970.

As one who had always been involved with sports, both playing and watching and teaching in both high school and college, I naturally gravitated to watching Duke play soccer, tennis, and baseball in the 1970s. I’ve never much been interested in football and though I had gone to many college basketball games in the Palestra as a teenager, as well as a number of professional games, I did not get hooked on Duke basketball until my late father-in-law and I got tickets to the Big Four tournament in Greensboro. After that I followed Duke basketball assiduously on TV, as I did the other ACC teams. Billy Packer and Jim Thacker and Pilot Life and Raytheon Sports captured me. With little children in the house however, it did not seem possible that I could regularly attend evening games in Cameron.

What changed I think was my following the Gene Banks - Kenny Dennard teams and rooting hard for them in the NCAA tournament until the final Kentucky loss. I was hooked. Around that time, some time in the late 1970s, I secured a pair of season basketball tickets. I felt connected to Duke basketball as well because on many occasions I had athletes in my undergraduate classes. In one memorable course in fact I taught Mark Alarie, Tommy Amaker, and David Henderson and at the end they gave presentations to the rest of the class. These athletes at that time were of course students. From time to time I had other basketball players in my classes. It all seemed very normal and natural that the Duke athletes were Duke students and I shared in the general contempt we all had for the non-student athletes that infested many of the teams from schools we competed against.

In time I joined the Iron Dukes to maintain my seat selection but also in recognition of the scholarship needs of the student athletes. I have been, and my wife has with me been, loyal fans and supporters of Duke basketball. My children though they live far away now are likewise Duke fans as are the grandchildren. (That is, except for my stepson and daughter-in-law who are both UNC grads. We love them nonetheless.)

In recent years however our pleasure in watching young men arrive at Duke to play basketball and develop over a number of years both physically and emotionally and in their ability to articulate their college experiences has gradually diminished. Like everyone on these boards, we have felt increasingly alienated from the young athletes who come to the University for short periods of time hardly making connection to the faculty or cross cutting into non-basketball communities on this campus. It has been many years since a basketball player has taken classes in my department. They are gifted athletes indeed but I do not see them any longer as students. Referring to all of them as scholar-athletes no longer seems appropriate – some perhaps but certainly not all, and not the elite basketball players.

In recent years my wife and I have become devoted NBA junkies and have watched the Duke kids grow and develop both athletically and emotionally into men. We have seen our one-year players at Duke, whom we hardly knew it all, become human in their growth and development in the professional game. We follow their careers even as we no longer involved ourselves in their Duke careers of such short duration.

The spectacle of my faculty colleagues who teach at UNC, my many faculty friends there, defending the indefensible behavior of their athletic department and their college administration in fraudulently maintaining the eligibility of nonstudents, a number of them illiterates in fact, has been appalling. There are some UNC chemists I no longer talk to. And of course the sanctimonious twits of the NCAA deserve all of our contempt.

Two years ago the creation on the second floor of Cameron of a high priced exclusive badge only club for high roller Duke alums and senior administrators, with guards keeping us riffraff away from the entrances, is sickening. One of the things that had always been special about attending Duke basketball games here was that we, all the attendees, were in it together. I would see the president or presidents over time, together with other university officers, board members, staff members, faculty of all ranks, alums, and many Durham and local residents share the same terrible refreshments and inadequate toilet facilities. There was no conversation one could have on campus or in Durham about Duke basketball that could not bring us, with all our class, gender, and race differences, together. Now even in fandom that is not the case. I see the president not walking the second floor corridor at half time but rather escorting prominent guests into the club.

Last year I split my season tickets with a younger colleague. After this year I will not continue purchasing tickets, and even this year, except for passing along the UNC tickets to my children, my wife and I will not be going to the games. With multiple freshman who have no long-term attachment to my university my identification with basketball is extremely weak. It is still the case that my admiration for Coach K is almost boundless for his multiple roles as teacher, mentor, and spokesman for what is best about this university in its relation with athletics. Though I do not follow football, Coach K’s enthusiastic support in recruiting David Cutcliff means that this university at least continues to make a statement about student athletes that is positive even as one-and-done basketball players appear to be clueless scholars.

My goodbye is not important to Duke or to Duke Athletics or to the Duke Basketball Report which I have followed and appreciated for a number of years. It is though a bit like a death to me, and I grieve. What I cared deeply about I do care for any longer. I’m sorry.

[Devilwin]

Sorry you choose to leave, but a lot of what you say rings very true, sadly.

[Billy Dat]

I appreciate this elegant missive, thank you for sharing it.

College basketball has changed so much in your tenure as a fan, mostly its emergence as a billion dollar industry filling the pockets of everyone but these "scholar athletes". It's interesting that your note appears the same day as Coach K's exclusive interview with The Sporting News where he is calling for reform that would include sneaker companies and the NBA as stakeholders in how non-professional basketball should be run, from the youth level through D1 college.

Your perspective as a member of the faculty, particularly the "velvet rope" aspect of the Cameron renovation, is really interesting. Do you share similar views on the "arms race" of fundraising and facility construction that has swept all levels of academia over the past 20 years?

[duke79]

Thank you for your long and eloquent thoughts! I understand completely how you feel about the changes that have taken over college athletics, especially the high revenue sports of football and basketball (although there are not that many OAD's in college football but there are certainly many other abuses taking place in the sport), even at a school like Duke. I feel that, in a way, we've sold our soul for the goal of highly ranked teams. I just don't have the allegiance to teams where one, two, three or four players come and go in one year. Duke and other schools have just become a mandated, one year way station for some of these top HS players, taking just enough course to stay eligible (or even less at UNC) for the season. In my mind, it has become somewhat of a farce and I feel somewhat guilty about it, because I want Duke to win as much as anyone and to do that, you have compete with the other top teams for the talent. I blame the NBA as much as anyone for the inane OAD requirement. I was talking to someone a few years ago in March about the NCAA tournament and he said that he no longer watches it because all the players are just "mercenaries". It was hard to argue with him.

[rsvman]

While I hear and understand everything you say, on a visceral level I am, as yet, still deeply committed. Once a young man puts on that jersey that proudly displays "Duke" across his chest, I become his fan. Even if he is only with us for a single year, I will be watching and cheering him on.

[OldPhiKap]

Sorry to hear of your decision. But completely understand, brother (or sister).

Keep it cool, Peace.

[swood1000]

My fear has always been that if we drop that amount of amateurism that still remains, and start allowing salaries, we will see this sort of attitude spread like the plague among fans. I understand that many people have strong beliefs to the contrary. Let’s not start debating that question in this thread. We have an entire thread devoted to that. It’s just such a good example of what concerns me.

[elvis14]

My best friend and I have spoken multiple times about the effect of 1 and 2 year players have had on us as fans (outside of being basketball fans, neither one of us has ties to Duke). I think about players like Bobby Hurley, Grant Hill, Shane, JJ and many others and how connected I felt to them and how much I cared and still care. We finally just admitted that we don't care about players like Jabari, Ingram, Tatum, etc. as much as we cared about guys that were here for 3 or 4 years. When I think about this years team, I excited. I like to win and I think they will be so much fun to watch. But when it comes to the emotional part of the team, it's Grayson Allen that care most about and it's not even close. I'm excited to see Javin get some playing time because I think he'll be fun to watch and I think he'll be back next year.

Do I want the 1 and done rule changed? Sure, and the reason is a selfish one: I want to care about the Duke players the way I used to. I still care about the program and I still spend way too much time keeping up with it here on DBR but man, I'd take a team full of students over 1 and done players any day.

[rthomas]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zKKVIEZPTYk

[FadedTackyShirt]

Remember seeing a junior Grant Hill in the bookstore and was pleasantly surprised that he was left alone and treated like any other Duke student despite already being a national household name.

Duke, the ACC, and the NCAA aren’t in control of the NBA draft rules, but it’s silly to force talented athletes who aren’t academically minded to go to college for a year.

[DevilFalcon]

Sorry to see anyone leave but like previous posters I do understand the disconnect with the short-term players.
There are still the long-term players that you can see grow and those become my favorite players, such as Grayson Allen this year.
My wife has become less involved in Duke basketball after the 3 S team (Singler, Smith, Scheyer). We haven't seen a group like that in a while.
The College landscape is rapidly changing and I think this aspect will as well.
On another note, if you have unused tickets I always try to make it out to Cameron at least a couple times a year. You may have seen me occasionally decked out in Duke Gear with a 'Father and Son need two tickets' sign.

[MChambers]

I share a lot of your concerns. Great post!

[DukeDevilDeb]

I joined the Duke faculty in 1970.

As one who had always been involved with sports, both playing and watching and teaching in both high school and college, I naturally gravitated to watching Duke play soccer, tennis, and baseball in the 1970s. I’ve never much been interested in football and though I had gone to many college basketball games in the Palestra as a teenager, as well as a number of professional games, I did not get hooked on Duke basketball until my late father-in-law and I got tickets to the Big Four tournament in Greensboro. After that I followed Duke basketball assiduously on TV, as I did the other ACC teams. Billy Packer and Jim Thacker and Pilot Life and Raytheon Sports captured me. With little children in the house however, it did not seem possible that I could regularly attend evening games in Cameron.

...
Two years ago the creation on the second floor of Cameron of a high priced exclusive badge only club for high roller Duke alums and senior administrators, with guards keeping us riffraff away from the entrances, is sickening. One of the things that had always been special about attending Duke basketball games here was that we, all the attendees, were in it together. I would see the president or presidents over time, together with other university officers, board members, staff members, faculty of all ranks, alums, and many Durham and local residents share the same terrible refreshments and inadequate toilet facilities. There was no conversation one could have on campus or in Durham about Duke basketball that could not bring us, with all our class, gender, and race differences, together. Now even in fandom that is not the case. I see the president not walking the second floor corridor at half time but rather escorting prominent guests into the club.

Last year I split my season tickets with a younger colleague. After this year I will not continue purchasing tickets, and even this year, except for passing along the UNC tickets to my children, my wife and I will not be going to the games. With multiple freshman who have no long-term attachment to my university my identification with basketball is extremely weak. It is still the case that my admiration for Coach K is almost boundless for his multiple roles as teacher, mentor, and spokesman for what is best about this university in its relation with athletics. Though I do not follow football, Coach K’s enthusiastic support in recruiting David Cutcliff means that this university at least continues to make a statement about student athletes that is positive even as one-and-done basketball players appear to be clueless scholars.

My goodbye is not important to Duke or to Duke Athletics or to the Duke Basketball Report which I have followed and appreciated for a number of years. It is though a bit like a death to me, and I grieve. What I cared deeply about I do care for any longer. I’m sorry.

Although I've not been a Duke basketball fan for quite as long as you have (31 years for me), I both sympathize and empathize with what you have so eloquently written here. Although I follow some of our former players as they move into the NBA, I have not become an NBA junkie and never will. The amount of money paid to athletes in today's world when we have people starving in this country is beyond my comprehension. And the fact that many of these athletes end up broke puts an exclamation point on my general disbelief in what is happening to this country... . But I digress.

I have had most of the men's and some of the women's players in class over the last 30 years. Contrary to what some of our foes think, I have never been pressured to pass an athlete who failed or to compromise my class standards by the basketball program or any other Duke sport program. That is a statement I'm very proud of.

The last GREAT DUKE team won the National Championship in 2010. Three seniors, two juniors who had played together and could read each other's minds... dedicated to being really good people as well as really good players. The fact that two of them are back here and on staff shows the Duke loyalty that I love. But the teams since then have been more about individual one and doners and not about the name on the front of the jersey. And look what they have(n't) done. 2010-11: We had Kyrie for 8 games... not his fault but his presence in the program didn't contribute to the stature or the winning record of that team. In fact, I thought bringing him back in the tournament was a mistake and we were out in one. 2011-12: Austin Rivers who made one great shot at UNC but was never a team player. 2012-13: No one and done, but not much done either. 2013-14: Jabari Parker and Rodney Hood... And a one and out of the NCAA tournament. 2014-15: Can I complain about this team? We won a National Championship. But the quick exit of Tyus left us unexpectedly without a true point guard, something hopefully we can remedy this year. 2015-16: Another one and done year. We made it to the second weekend of the NCAA tourney... but went out there immediately. 2016-17: We lost 9 players from that team, with 3 one and dones. And 2017-18: #1 Recruiting class, but who will stay and how long is pretty obvious.

I love Duke basketball. I love winning. I love the 5 National Championships that we've won during my time at Duke. But we used to win ACC championships as well... and the early tournaments, the Thanksgiving tournaments... The one thing our Greatest of All Time Coach cannot do it make freshmen play together like juniors and seniors.

I've gone from being a Cameron Crazy to a Cameron Crusty to a distressed and alienated disbeliever. Your comments about the new club are right on. The cost of food and drink in Cameron is obscene, yet we are nearly frisked as we come in to be sure that we didn't bring anything like that from home. [Note: I am not complaining about the security. That's important. But security to prevent my carrying a bottle of water in isn't.] I haven't said goodbye yet, but I am much less excited when players show up on my class list. Feels like college basketball isn't about loving the school and the students and the players and the traditions any more... And that's just sad. Farewell... I suspect I will be following you soon.

[Chicago 1995]

I joined the Duke faculty in 1970.

As one who had always been involved with sports, both playing and watching and teaching in both high school and college, I naturally gravitated to watching Duke play soccer, tennis, and baseball in the 1970s. I’ve never much been interested in football and though I had gone to many college basketball games in the Palestra as a teenager, as well as a number of professional games, I did not get hooked on Duke basketball until my late father-in-law and I got tickets to the Big Four tournament in Greensboro. After that I followed Duke basketball assiduously on TV, as I did the other ACC teams. Billy Packer and Jim Thacker and Pilot Life and Raytheon Sports captured me. With little children in the house however, it did not seem possible that I could regularly attend evening games in Cameron.

What changed I think was my following the Gene Banks - Kenny Dennard teams and rooting hard for them in the NCAA tournament until the final Kentucky loss. I was hooked. Around that time, some time in the late 1970s, I secured a pair of season basketball tickets. I felt connected to Duke basketball as well because on many occasions I had athletes in my undergraduate classes. In one memorable course in fact I taught Mark Alarie, Tommy Amaker, and David Henderson and at the end they gave presentations to the rest of the class. These athletes at that time were of course students. From time to time I had other basketball players in my classes. It all seemed very normal and natural that the Duke athletes were Duke students and I shared in the general contempt we all had for the non-student athletes that infested many of the teams from schools we competed against.

In time I joined the Iron Dukes to maintain my seat selection but also in recognition of the scholarship needs of the student athletes. I have been, and my wife has with me been, loyal fans and supporters of Duke basketball. My children though they live far away now are likewise Duke fans as are the grandchildren. (That is, except for my stepson and daughter-in-law who are both UNC grads. We love them nonetheless.)

In recent years however our pleasure in watching young men arrive at Duke to play basketball and develop over a number of years both physically and emotionally and in their ability to articulate their college experiences has gradually diminished. Like everyone on these boards, we have felt increasingly alienated from the young athletes who come to the University for short periods of time hardly making connection to the faculty or cross cutting into non-basketball communities on this campus. It has been many years since a basketball player has taken classes in my department. They are gifted athletes indeed but I do not see them any longer as students. Referring to all of them as scholar-athletes no longer seems appropriate – some perhaps but certainly not all, and not the elite basketball players.

In recent years my wife and I have become devoted NBA junkies and have watched the Duke kids grow and develop both athletically and emotionally into men. We have seen our one-year players at Duke, whom we hardly knew it all, become human in their growth and development in the professional game. We follow their careers even as we no longer involved ourselves in their Duke careers of such short duration.

The spectacle of my faculty colleagues who teach at UNC, my many faculty friends there, defending the indefensible behavior of their athletic department and their college administration in fraudulently maintaining the eligibility of nonstudents, a number of them illiterates in fact, has been appalling. There are some UNC chemists I no longer talk to. And of course the sanctimonious twits of the NCAA deserve all of our contempt.

Two years ago the creation on the second floor of Cameron of a high priced exclusive badge only club for high roller Duke alums and senior administrators, with guards keeping us riffraff away from the entrances, is sickening. One of the things that had always been special about attending Duke basketball games here was that we, all the attendees, were in it together. I would see the president or presidents over time, together with other university officers, board members, staff members, faculty of all ranks, alums, and many Durham and local residents share the same terrible refreshments and inadequate toilet facilities. There was no conversation one could have on campus or in Durham about Duke basketball that could not bring us, with all our class, gender, and race differences, together. Now even in fandom that is not the case. I see the president not walking the second floor corridor at half time but rather escorting prominent guests into the club.

Last year I split my season tickets with a younger colleague. After this year I will not continue purchasing tickets, and even this year, except for passing along the UNC tickets to my children, my wife and I will not be going to the games. With multiple freshman who have no long-term attachment to my university my identification with basketball is extremely weak.It is still the case that my admiration for Coach K is almost boundless for his multiple roles as teacher, mentor, and spokesman for what is best about this university in its relation with athletics. Though I do not follow football, Coach K’s enthusiastic support in recruiting David Cutcliff means that this university at least continues to make a statement about student athletes that is positive even as one-and-done basketball players appear to be clueless scholars.

My goodbye is not important to Duke or to Duke Athletics or to the Duke Basketball Report which I have followed and appreciated for a number of years. It is though a bit like a death to me, and I grieve. What I cared deeply about I do care for any longer. I’m sorry.

I’m sorry to hear that things in college basketball have changed in such a way that you are at this point. I can identify, albeit not with college basketball. Fall weekends used to mean nothing but football in my house. Between the arms race in college football, brain trauma, and the generally loathsome administration and ownership in the NFL, I watch almost no football these days. And it something like a death. There a loss to deal with — maybe not of the game, but of the connections made because of the game. Water cooler conversations have changed. Some friendships aren’t as strong without that connective tissue. I really do understand what you are saying.

That said, things do change. I don’t think it’s fair to blame the new generation of player that things have changed, and while I’m responding to you, it seems like in many of these messages expressing discontent with today’s game, players take blame for a system in which they are stuck. If you must place blame, blame the NBA and the money paid to athletes generally. Blame sports media and the AAU and summer basketball culture that make stars of kids at way too young an age. Blame the NCAA for its arcane rules, shoddy and inconsistent enforcement, and its absolute hypocrisy in perpetuating this system of purported “student athletes”. But don’t blame the players.

Why? The money is awfully big. Big enough that most of us would (were we honest) have foregone a portion of our college experience to earn that kind of money for ourselves and our families. The system’s not fair. Players are limited in the amount of time they can be coached and work to hone their talent and chosen profession. What good does that do anyone? Can you imagine telling a savant they could only do 20 hours of math a week? Limit the amount of time spent with a professor? For some reason, things have evolved such that we look askew at athlete who want to leave college early in basketball and football, while young college athletes going pro in golf and tennis with their long-standing different approaches, don’t raise any questions. Soccer has a different system as well, and and we don’t bat an eye at players like Christian Pulisic, Kylian Mbappe or Gabriel Jesus starting for elite teams while still teenagers. American born basketball players don’t really have that opportunity — Brandon Jennings and Terrence Ferguson aside — so they’re left to go to college. And, in my opinion, get exploited pretty terribly. Never mind the celebration of the Gates and Zuckerbergs of the world, who go pro to Silicon Valley without anyone batting an eye.

As for the bolded above, I think it’s really not fair to question the commitment and connection to the school. Justice Winslow and Tyus Jones, for example, may have only spent one season at Duke — one pretty glorious season — but I think both have shown to be very connected to Duke and committed members of the larger Duke community. Do all one-and-done players have that connection? Of course not. Neither do all four year players. Nor do some of my classmates in the Class of 1995. The players that make the most of their time at Duke should be celebrated, whether one year players or four.

Things change, and sometimes they change such that passions dim, or favorites change. But they don’t necessarily change for better or worse. It’s just change. That how it is with college basketball for me. And the guys coming to Duke now, whether Marvin Bagley or Grayson Allen, didn’t have anything to do with that change. Those guys are all part of the Duke community, and we should welcome them and celebrate their accomplishments in Durham and beyond, degree or not.

[lotusland]

For a while now I’ve wondered at what point college academia and administrators would begin to question, out loud, whether revenue sports had strayed too far from their collegiate mission to ignore.

Football is a sport that is now known to cause brain damage while the idea of either
“amateurism” or “student” athletics strains credulity in light of the UNC and Adidas scandals. Marvin Bagley is a tremendously talented ball player and undoubtably a great kid who is months away from a lucrative and hopefully successful pro career. But Duke actually coached him in how to successfully skip his senior year of HS so he could show up just in time for practice and play ball here for 6 mos. No rules were broken and and certainly Bagley will suffer no harm, save a serious injury, yet the purpose of this whole exercise has literally nothing to do with college.

My father, a retired college professor of art and religion, once exhibited a painting of 2 UT football players rolling dice for Jesus’ garments at the foot of the cross to demonstrate compromise of academic integrity for the pursuit of athletics. This was in the early 1970s when I was just a grammar school kid in East TN. The painting would have gone unnoticed except that it was awarded some prize and a picture appeared in the local paper. Letters of outrage flooded the subsequent opinion pages and I actually got some razzing about it at school which is probably why I remember it so vividly.

Anyway we’ve traveled much further down the road to ruin since then but I appreciate a word of caution from faculty. With that said, I’ll probably watch most Duke games this year except for any games against the cheaters. Still it’s much less fun than it use to be.

[elvis14]

Things change, and sometimes they change such that passions dim, or favorites change. But they don’t necessarily change for better or worse. It’s just change. That how it is with college basketball for me. And the guys coming to Duke now, whether Marvin Bagley or Grayson Allen, didn’t have anything to do with that change. Those guys are all part of the Duke community, and we should welcome them and celebrate their accomplishments in Durham and beyond, degree or not.

I agree with much of your post and I agree that sometimes change isn't for better or worse but I don't think this is one of those times. The one and done rule is clearly a change for the worse for NCAA basketball. It's an NBA change that has repercussions for NCAA basketball. We welcome players and celebrate them while they are here but there's a difference between that and having an investment in a player. You list Bagley and Allen as examples but they are 2 very different cases. One's a senior captain, the other a freshman one and done. I care a whole lot more about Grayson and I doubt that'll change.

[uh_no]

For a while now I’ve wondered at what point college academia and administrators would begin to question, out loud, whether revenue sports had strayed too far from their collegiate mission to ignore.


I'm sure this gets questioned every year in the allen building. they give <whatever> million a year to the athletic department. (10-20 last I checked). That investment has some monetary value which I don't have enough info to calculate, but some people do. If the administration didn't believe it was in the long term financial health of the university, it almost assuredly wouldn't be happening.

Being related to someone who works in the office of revenue of a top university (not duke top, but high enough, and i'm skeptical that the decision process is significantly different), so many decisions are driven by money. What can and can't make money, how many professors departments can get, what degree programs can be offered, what campus spaces can be reserved by whom. I would be SHOCKED if athletics deviated too far from the same mold.

If duke administration believed that on the whole (and not just ticket sales....but publicity, world wide name recognition, alumni donations) athletics was losing the university money, it would lose its subsidy quickly. Given that we must assume it is making money (even if those revenue channels are harder to quantify), the administration will assuredly grab hold on to it so long as it has ANY connection to the academic mission of a university, however tenuous.

The acceptance of "legacy" students is in a similar vein. There is a monetary value to legacy students (not to demean any legacy students who may be here) which is likely greater than non-legacy students. Given that it can be justified even a bit, the university will take that if they can.

In short: the administration almost surely believes there is a monetary benefit to supporting athletics to <whatever> million a year. As soon as that monetary benefit is gone, so will the athletics subsidy be. Duke would fund an NFL team if they thought they could justify it. Investments unjustifiable under the mission of the university are relegated to endowment investments, which are, of course, confidential.

In short in short: it's all about the money, always and forever.

For my OWN opinion: it's case by case. Funding athletics? okay. propping up quack doctors who might produce lucrative patents down the road? not okay (anil potti)

[Furniture]

I honestly think all this talk is crybaby talk like is kids throwing their toys out of the pram.

Player x is only at Duke for one year so i won't play anymore. Not a Duke fan anymore.

Life changes guys. Get over it.

Tysus stayed one year but he is ok?
Justice the same?

Where is the concern about Josh Hairston? He stayed 4 Years. I could elaborate.

I think that that people that change their support and chose another team or say that they are not a fan anymore aren't a real fan anyway.

No offense meant. Just my opinion. LGD!

[SoCalDukeFan]

I went to Duke in the 60's. I was friendly with a basketball star and acquainted with other players. My roommate tutored a star in Latin. We saw these guys with books and some friends had classes with them.

You don't get a record like Coach K's without being super super competitive. I appreciate why he recruits the players he does even if he knows many are one and done.

Personally I would drop Div I basketball if success requires a team of players who basically quit school when the season is over. From what I can tell many of the one and doners are fine people and I would be happy if they were part of my personal family but I think that frosh that enter with a plan to leave basically after a semester and a half should not be part of the Duke family.


I agree with an earlier post that the 2010 team was the last great Duke team. Maybe if the rules change we will get another.

SoCal

[indy1duke]

Thank you Walrus for your post. I found it very moving for many reasons. You started on the Duke faculty my junior year at Duke. That was during the Vietnam War and those were turbulent times at Duke. You had the opportunity to see the lowest of lows and the highest of highs for Duke basketball. You came to an Indoor Stadium that had no air conditioning and the spectators could still smoke. You watched the quality of the teams catch up to the quality of the student fans and all their crazy cheers and pranks. You were there to see Coach K struggle and overcome early adversity to become GOAT.

There are several concerns I have with college basketball today including Duke basketball: the ones Walrus mentions in his post, the Adidas scandal, the failure of the NCAA to punish the cheaters, and the tax proposal which may raise the ticket prices by 20% per year for Iron Duke members. Each of these is a powerful disincentive to a college basketball fan. Besides those I moved and now have a 6 hour drive to Cameron and our home preseason schedule doesn't inspire driving 12 hours to see a basketball game against an over-matched foe. Notwithstanding all of the above I love watching Duke basketball. I just wish the NBA, the commercialism and the money would go away, but that is an unrealistic dream of an old guy trying to recapture his youth.

[lotusland]

I honestly think all this talk is crybaby talk like is kids throwing their toys out of the pram.

Player x is only at Duke for one year so i won't play anymore. Not a Duke fan anymore.

Life changes guys. Get over it.

Tysus stayed one year but he is ok?
Justice the same?

Where is the concern about Josh Hairston? He stayed 4 Years. I could elaborate.

I think that that people that change their support and chose another team or say that they are not a fan anymore aren't a real fan anyway.

No offense meant. Just my opinion. LGD!

Well fan is short for fanatic and I’m not fanatical about any sport or team so I’ll cop to not being real.

[Atlanta Duke]

Life changes guys. Get over it

You are correct.

Life changes and what you once regarded to be an entertaining diversion with some emotional commitment thrown in to the mix has changed into something that is no longer consistently entertaining (the real season now runs for three weeks in March and early April) or worth much of a commitment.

To paraphrase a very successful elected official, some of us are not leaving college basketball - college basketball already left us.

[Furniture]

Well fan is short for fanatic and I’m not fanatical about any sport or team so I’ll cop to not being real.

I post on this board 0.99 posts per day. I think about Duke a lot. Am I a fanatic? You post 0.85....

[dudog84]

Well, if we're going to start referencing questionable statistics, it's time to quote Mark Twain. Or Benjamin Disraeli if you're a Brit. Or virtually anyone when you realize the origin of the quote is dubious at best (I wish I could take credit for it, but I was born at least 100 years too late). So that's why maybe the best quote is opinions are like...

[Reilly]

... the failure of the NCAA to punish the cheaters ...

It's OK to name a thing by its name: UNC. They cheat. It's why they couldn't go to a bowl a couple years ago. It's why a lot of people laugh at them now or pity them, or both. Cheaters. UNC. Fakers.

[DieHard]

I too became a Duke fan in the 70's, but it was because my father (a Duke Law Grad) took me and my brother to every home football and basketball game for years. Season tickets were our big Christmas present each year. By the mid 80's we could no longer attend, mainly because my parents kept having kids, but we all were all die hard fans. I have a very large family. It is what brought us together. Through all the awkward times, we could always connect through Duke athletics. I am not ready to give it up. My father passed it to my kids and it works. I agree it has changed. It is hard to love a team and individual players as much, but it is the one thing that has never spilled a drink at the dinner table. Unless they were describing a great play...

[Reilly]

...took me and my brother to every home football and basketball game for years ...

I'm a little tired of hearing from the 1%ers ... how do the rest of us get through the day? ...

[DieHard]

I'm a little tired of hearing from the 1%ers ... how do the rest of us get through the day? ...

Do you have any idea what a season ticket cost from 1970 to 1985 to a Duke athletic event? 1%?

[Reilly]

Do you have any idea what a season ticket cost from 1970 to 1985 to a Duke athletic event? 1%?

Probably not much in dollars ... but a tremendous amount of effort in those days of sometimes losing b'ball and middlin' football ... it sounds like a blessed existence ...

Your family was blessed sports-wise ..

[gep]

...

Why? The money is awfully big. Big enough that most of us would (were we honest) have foregone a portion of our college experience to earn that kind of money for ourselves and our families. The system’s not fair. Players are limited in the amount of time they can be coached and work to hone their talent and chosen profession. What good does that do anyone? Can you imagine telling a savant they could only do 20 hours of math a week? Limit the amount of time spent with a professor? For some reason, things have evolved such that we look askew at athlete who want to leave college early in basketball and football, while young college athletes going pro in golf and tennis with their long-standing different approaches, don’t raise any questions. Soccer has a different system as well, and and we don’t bat an eye at players like Christian Pulisic, Kylian Mbappe or Gabriel Jesus starting for elite teams while still teenagers. American born basketball players don’t really have that opportunity — Brandon Jennings and Terrence Ferguson aside — so they’re left to go to college. And, in my opinion, get exploited pretty terribly. Never mind the celebration of the Gates and Zuckerbergs of the world, who go pro to Silicon Valley without anyone batting an eye.

...



The bolded made me think about... a student is passionate about his subject (chemistry, math, music, art, etc) and he spends as much time with his professor(s) as his professor(s) would like to. No limits. Imagine if sports coaches have such unlimited access to student-athletes. Could Coach K mold 4 year players (not top tier) into championship contenders year-in and year- out in today's environment if he has unlimited access? And, could he do it in today's one-and-done environment? I would love to see a team of Amile, Matt, Grayson, Quinn, etc... every year.


I agree with much of your post and I agree that sometimes change isn't for better or worse but I don't think this is one of those times. The one and done rule is clearly a change for the worse for NCAA basketball. It's an NBA change that has repercussions for NCAA basketball. We welcome players and celebrate them while they are here but there's a difference between that and having an investment in a player. You list Bagley and Allen as examples but they are 2 very different cases. One's a senior captain, the other a freshman one and done. I care a whole lot more about Grayson and I doubt that'll change.

This is why I also treasure and care about Grayson...

[MarkD83]

I appreciate this elegant missive, thank you for sharing it.

College basketball has changed so much in your tenure as a fan, mostly its emergence as a billion dollar industry filling the pockets of everyone but these "scholar athletes". It's interesting that your note appears the same day as Coach K's exclusive interview with The Sporting News where he is calling for reform that would include sneaker companies and the NBA as stakeholders in how non-professional basketball should be run, from the youth level through D1 college.

Your perspective as a member of the faculty, particularly the "velvet rope" aspect of the Cameron renovation, is really interesting. Do you share similar views on the "arms race" of fundraising and facility construction that has swept all levels of academia over the past 20 years?

Several folks mentioned the change that has occurred in college basketball. As Coach K mentioned it has become a billion dollar business. However, one must remember why it is now a billion dollar industry. The NCAA tournament has become the big draw and with it the billions of dollars in TV rights that is the main source of revenue. The tournament has now attracted the casual fan who every year gets a bracket and fills it out not knowing a lot about each team. These fans may not even care about the fact that the players go to school (or don't go to school). The tournament is a spring sporting distraction. My analogy is the Kentucky Derby and Indianapolis 500. I do not follow these two sports but will watch each event in the spring.

The danger the NCAA has is that the NCAA does not have the best basketball players on the planet. The NBA has those players. One could argue that by talent selection, the D league and some international leagues have more talented basketball players than the NBA. So if I purely want to see great basketball, the NCAA is not what I would watch. That means if the casual fan loses interest in the tournament, the economic bubble collapses.

The NCAA will then have to lean on its tried and true fan base, which based on the UNC scandal, the Adidas scandal and this thread they are losing but they may not care. So Coach K if you are reading these threads, please include the tried and true fan in your system. If not you may find the lower bowl in Cameron nearly empty and the top bowl filled with folks who want to glad hand the president and don't really care about what is going on down on the floor.

[johnb]

President of the University of Oklahoma:
"We are working hard to create a university that our football team can be proud of."

Duke University's post-1970 rise into a world-class institution paralleled that of the basketball team, and there aren't available dollars to pay for the reality that most US sports fans have "Duke," "basketball," and "geniuses" intertwined, often in the voice of Dickie V or in the visual of one of our articulate, appealing former athletes. Intellectuals at Duke would scoff at the idea that Duke athletes are all geniuses, or that sports is Duke's prime claim to fame, but it's inarguable that basketball gets publicity that escapes the rest of the campus, even the medical center, which quietly dwarfs the rest of campus in regards to $$$.

I don't have a problem with athletes going pro after a year. They have a limited time frame, a huge risk/benefit ratio in regards to injuries and being flops, and I don't begrudge them banking 7 figures when they get the chance. Anyway, why do we only worry about a couple of dozen African American basketball players going pro early when we don't care about Jordan Spieth abandoning academics in order to compete and get rich or the hundreds of white hockey or baseball players who skip college with little actual chance of a payoff.

I personally don't like the 1 and done trend for the selfish reason that I wouldn't recognize several of next year's starters. Since the 1970's, when I showed up at Duke, that was simply never the case. And it's kinda boring for me to watch basketball without that sort of familiarity--even if they are wearing Duke jerseys. I can understand why our coach, who can recruit almost anyone and is very competitive and may not be coaching in 4 years, would want to coach future NBA all stars right now. And the only NCAA coach who turns down Marvin Bagley III or Wendell Carter is either unemployed or a liar.

As for the intrusion of money into the games, or into VIP sections, well, the only mistake Duke made was by a lack of discretion. Duke is entrenched in all sorts of elite practices, and that includes a variety of insider invites--I only feel bad about not being invited when I find out that there are such things. And, when I get dismayed, I remember the old adage: if you're disillusioned, you were illusioned in the first place.

[lotusland]

I post on this board 0.99 posts per day. I think about Duke a lot. Am I a fanatic? You post 0.85...

I don’t know but I think the other poster implied that I’m not a real fan. I’m OK with that characterization.

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

I don’t know but I think the other poster implied that I’m not a real fan. I’m OK with that characterization.

I personally feel that arguing over what constitues true fandom is only navel gazing that will leave a segment of people upset.

To the original poster - sorry to see you go. Thanks for years of loyal service!

[dukelifer]

I'm sure this gets questioned every year in the allen building. they give <whatever> million a year to the athletic department. (10-20 last I checked). That investment has some monetary value which I don't have enough info to calculate, but some people do. If the administration didn't believe it was in the long term financial health of the university, it almost assuredly wouldn't be happening.

Being related to someone who works in the office of revenue of a top university (not duke top, but high enough, and i'm skeptical that the decision process is significantly different), so many decisions are driven by money. What can and can't make money, how many professors departments can get, what degree programs can be offered, what campus spaces can be reserved by whom. I would be SHOCKED if athletics deviated too far from the same mold.

If duke administration believed that on the whole (and not just ticket sales...but publicity, world wide name recognition, alumni donations) athletics was losing the university money, it would lose its subsidy quickly. Given that we must assume it is making money (even if those revenue channels are harder to quantify), the administration will assuredly grab hold on to it so long as it has ANY connection to the academic mission of a university, however tenuous.

The acceptance of "legacy" students is in a similar vein. There is a monetary value to legacy students (not to demean any legacy students who may be here) which is likely greater than non-legacy students. Given that it can be justified even a bit, the university will take that if they can.

In short: the administration almost surely believes there is a monetary benefit to supporting athletics to <whatever> million a year. As soon as that monetary benefit is gone, so will the athletics subsidy be. Duke would fund an NFL team if they thought they could justify it. Investments unjustifiable under the mission of the university are relegated to endowment investments, which are, of course, confidential.

In short in short: it's all about the money, always and forever.

For my OWN opinion: it's case by case. Funding athletics? okay. propping up quack doctors who might produce lucrative patents down the road? not okay (anil potti)

It is about money and where Duke invests its money defines its priorities. Duke decided a while ago to make Coach K the highest paid employee at the University- higher than the president and the chancellor of the Health System. By doing so they have effectively said that he is the most valuable person for Duke's brand and success. That is a powerful statement and is not being challenged at the Trustee level. We have come a long way since 1970 where now the University values a few coaches significantly more than its professors and institutional leaders.

[sagegrouse]

It is about money and where Duke invests its money defines its priorities. Duke decided a while ago to make Coach K the highest paid employee at the University- higher than the president and the chancellor of the Health System. By doing so they have effectively said that he is the most valuable person for Duke's brand and success. That is a powerful statement and is not being challenged at the Trustee level. We have come a long way since 1970 where now the University values a few coaches significantly more than its professors and institutional leaders.

Sorry, but it reflects the market more than "values." Duke is paying "market value" at all three positions. The market value for the best college hoops coach, maybe of all time, is a lot higher than the market value for a top college president.

With respect to the pay of the chancellor of the health system, please remember that much of doctors' compensation at Duke (and other academic medical centers) is run through a for-profit subsidiary that doesn't have to be publicly revealed.

[dukelifer]

Sorry, but it reflects the market more than "values." Duke is paying "market value" at all three positions. The market value for the best college hoops coach, maybe of all time, is a lot higher than the market value for a top college president.

With respect to the pay of the chancellor of the health system, please remember that much of doctors' compensation at Duke (and other academic medical centers) is run through a for-profit subsidiary that doesn't have to be publicly revealed.

The market is determined by the other institutions that value it as well and even with that - K is at or near the top of the heap. Duke chooses to play because it sees value. If it were a business decision- Duke could easily hire a less expensive coach.

[sagegrouse]

The market is determined by the other institutions that value it as well and even with that - K is at or near the top of the heap. Duke chooses to play because it sees value. If it were a business decision- Duke could easily hire a less expensive coach.

Duke has been in position to have the highest-profile hoops program in the country, thanks in part to Coach K. It has decided to "go for it" -- with incredibly high salaries for the coach. The program generates a lot of money for Duke, much of which goes elsewhere in athletics. Moreover, I believe most schools would have made the same choice.

[SupaDave]

All these posts. I do find it humorous. As a born at Duke Hospital and raised in Durham Duke fan - I am VERY proud of the University's progress. I can remember fighting tooth and nail about the school's "soft" image. Duke's attempts at diversification have only deepened my love for the University.

Now that I've said that - the real question that everyone else has seemed to miss: how much you want for them tickets bruh?

[dukelifer]

Duke has been in position to have the highest-profile hoops program in the country, thanks in part to Coach K. It has decided to "go for it" -- with incredibly high salaries for the coach. The program generates a lot of money for Duke, much of which goes elsewhere in athletics. Moreover, I believe most schools would have made the same choice.

My main point is that Duke values K more than any other employee because of his impact on the brand. Duke would not pay a good coach 5M a year to run a mediocre program- regardless of the market. It is not clear they could stay afloat financially in athletics without K and the bball teams success and I have my doubts that any sport other than basketball has led to significant donations that have benefitted the academic enterprise. If basketball fails to relevant - I think Duke would be hard pressed to justify a larger subsidy to support athletics. In a decade from now- we will likely see some significant changes.

[JNort]

I dont really care how long they stay in terms of how I view them. There are plenty of guys who have graduated and played a significant amount at Duke who I couldn't wait to go. There have been several 1 and 2 year guys who I love much more than many of our grads.

[BD80]

... My goodbye is not important to Duke or to Duke Athletics or to the Duke Basketball Report which I have followed and appreciated for a number of years. It is though a bit like a death to me, and I grieve. What I cared deeply about I do care for any longer. I’m sorry.

Looks like you picked a bad time to give up sniffing glue ...

[75Crazie]

Looks like you picked a bad time to give up sniffing glue ...
I am trying, but failing miserably, to understand your point.

[richardjackson199]

I am trying, but failing miserably, to understand your point.

From Airplane the Movie:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VmW-ScmGRMA

[75Crazie]

Oh, I know the source of the quote ... just don't understand how it applies here. I guess I'm just simple that way.

[MChambers]

Oh, I know the source of the quote ... just don't understand how it applies here. I guess I'm just simple that way.

Me too!

[YmoBeThere]

Perhaps BD80 is suggesting that we have a fabulously talented team this year and that abandoning the sport of college basketball now might be missing out on some of the fun...

[Bluedog]

I don't have a problem with athletes going pro after a year. They have a limited time frame, a huge risk/benefit ratio in regards to injuries and being flops, and I don't begrudge them banking 7 figures when they get the chance. Anyway, why do we only worry about a couple of dozen African American basketball players going pro early when we don't care about Jordan Spieth abandoning academics in order to compete and get rich or the hundreds of white hockey or baseball players who skip college with little actual chance of a payoff.

I don't think most people criticize the players for their decisions but are critical of the circumstances that lead to players not fully buying into the institution/academics and making it a pitstop that they're simply forced to take. Obviously, based on the circumstances of getting guaranteed millions of dollars, most people would make similar decisions.

The other big difference is that in golf, baseball, and hockey, you don't get paid well until you actually demonstrate high performance. In the NBA, if you're a top pick based on potential, you get guaranteed MILLIONS. In golf, potential means squat. You have to be a top player in the world to get paid like one. Similarly, in baseball and hockey, the vast vast majority of the guys drafted go to the minors and hardly get paid until they demonstrate they're ready for primetime. Just different draft/contract rules between the leagues. And golf obviously has no contracts whatsoever and is just prize money based on performance, so totally different. People think that if a high school prodigy wants to take the risk, they can go for it because if they "fail" they don't get paid. So, the risk/onus is on them and not some other entity. I don't think a Kwame Brown-like golfer would get paid $58.4M. ;)

So, maybe "jealousy"/"undeserving" players is a factor in people's feelings. But the fact that the NBA pays on potential makes the player's decisions even more understandable. Maybe if the G league gets bigger, the NBA will become more like the MLB, but I doubt it. The NBA players association wouldn't be happy with rookies getting paid $50k/year....

[uh_no]

Perhaps BD80 is suggesting that we have a fabulously talented team this year and that abandoning the sport of college basketball now might be missing out on some of the fun...

Did you hear the "whoosh"? that was the sound of an airplane joke with no pilot flying over DBRs head!


that was my interpretation. It's amusing because winning is a good thing, not like an airplane disaster. Furthermore, sports fandom is considered a positive outlet in life, unlike sniffing glue....so not only is the quote amusing in its own right, but it's amusing in a sarcastic way as well.

[OldPhiKap]

Did you hear the "whoosh"? that was the sound of an airplane joke with no pilot flying over DBRs head!


that was my interpretation. It's amusing because winning is a good thing, not like an airplane disaster. Furthermore, sports fandom is considered a positive outlet in life, unlike sniffing glue...so not only is the quote amusing in its own right, but it's amusing in a sarcastic way as well.

Surely you can’t be serious.

[75Crazie]

Roger, Roger ...

[OldPhiKap]

Roger, Roger ...

Tell that to George Zip.

[Chicago 1995]

The bolded made me think about... a student is passionate about his subject (chemistry, math, music, art, etc) and he spends as much time with his professor(s) as his professor(s) would like to. No limits. Imagine if sports coaches have such unlimited access to student-athletes. Could Coach K mold 4 year players (not top tier) into championship contenders year-in and year- out in today's environment if he has unlimited access? And, could he do it in today's one-and-done environment? I would love to see a team of Amile, Matt, Grayson, Quinn, etc... every year.



This is why I also treasure and care about Grayson...

To be fair, Grayson’s here as a four year player only because last year went south on him. Had he left, would that change how we view him? Makes the distinction less important in my eyes.

[moonpie23]

sorry to see anyone "go"......i feel like we are an amazing "family" of duke fans, convening here to cajole, admonish, disagree, consult, brag, taunt, weep, bait, admire, revere, and bond.....

as fans, we have little influence on the direction and management of the duke athletic program, however, i feel like i'm a part of the "family"....

hope to have no one leave, hope to have anyone who does, back soon....

[BLPOG]

Among the many good, salient responses in this thread I have seen references to the OP as "Walrus."

While I have no confirmed insight into the origin of the the OP's username, it is Walras, not walrus.

Walras was a French economist that made important contributions to theories of marginal value and equilibrium during the 19th century. Walras is not a large, marine mammal.

[OldPhiKap]

Among the many good, salient responses in this thread I have seen references to the OP as "Walrus."

While I have no confirmed insight into the origin of the the OP's username, it is Walras, not walrus.

Walras was a French economist that made important contributions to theories of marginal value and equilibrium during the 19th century. Walras is not a large, marine mammal.

Not to mention that while Walras was a noted economist, the Walrus was Paul.

[Neals384]

I don't really see a reason to stop being a Duke fan. As far as we know, the Duke athletic program has done nothing wrong.

I do plan a personal boycott of the NCAA. I will attend no NCAA tournament games, buy no merchandise, and watch no NCAA tournament games on TV, with one exception: I will watch Duke games.

[devildeac]

I don't really see a reason to stop being a Duke fan. As far as we know, the Duke athletic program has done nothing wrong.

I do plan a personal boycott of the NCAA. I will attend no NCAA tournament games, buy no merchandise, and watch no NCAA tournament games on TV, with one exception: I will watch Duke games.

Sounds like my plan, too. Except I'll add a fist pump/woo-hoo/and GTHc,GTH wherever and whenever the lying, cheating vermin from chappaheeya lose any sports contests this or any season.

[CameronBornAndBred]

I don't really see a reason to stop being a Duke fan. As far as we know, the Duke athletic program has done nothing wrong.

I do plan a personal boycott of the NCAA. I will attend no NCAA tournament games, buy no merchandise, and watch no NCAA tournament games on TV...

I'm gonna stop sniffing glue.

[YmoBeThere]

I haven't watched a non-Duke title game since Y2K.

[Ima Facultiwyfe]

Poignant piece. I have no better words. Nothing lasts forever, so weren't we the lucky ones to have been a part of the good times?! I'm grateful. Saddened, but grateful.

Love, Ima

[burnspbesq]

Although I've not been a Duke basketball fan for quite as long as you have (31 years for me), I both sympathize and empathize with what you have so eloquently written here. Although I follow some of our former players as they move into the NBA, I have not become an NBA junkie and never will. The amount of money paid to athletes in today's world when we have people starving in this country is beyond my comprehension. And the fact that many of these athletes end up broke puts an exclamation point on my general disbelief in what is happening to this country... . But I digress.

I have had most of the men's and some of the women's players in class over the last 30 years. Contrary to what some of our foes think, I have never been pressured to pass an athlete who failed or to compromise my class standards by the basketball program or any other Duke sport program. That is a statement I'm very proud of.

The last GREAT DUKE team won the National Championship in 2010. Three seniors, two juniors who had played together and could read each other's minds... dedicated to being really good people as well as really good players. The fact that two of them are back here and on staff shows the Duke loyalty that I love. But the teams since then have been more about individual one and doners and not about the name on the front of the jersey. And look what they have(n't) done. 2010-11: We had Kyrie for 8 games... not his fault but his presence in the program didn't contribute to the stature or the winning record of that team. In fact, I thought bringing him back in the tournament was a mistake and we were out in one. 2011-12: Austin Rivers who made one great shot at UNC but was never a team player. 2012-13: No one and done, but not much done either. 2013-14: Jabari Parker and Rodney Hood... And a one and out of the NCAA tournament. 2014-15: Can I complain about this team? We won a National Championship. But the quick exit of Tyus left us unexpectedly without a true point guard, something hopefully we can remedy this year. 2015-16: Another one and done year. We made it to the second weekend of the NCAA tourney... but went out there immediately. 2016-17: We lost 9 players from that team, with 3 one and dones. And 2017-18: #1 Recruiting class, but who will stay and how long is pretty obvious.

I love Duke basketball. I love winning. I love the 5 National Championships that we've won during my time at Duke. But we used to win ACC championships as well... and the early tournaments, the Thanksgiving tournaments... The one thing our Greatest of All Time Coach cannot do it make freshmen play together like juniors and seniors.

I've gone from being a Cameron Crazy to a Cameron Crusty to a distressed and alienated disbeliever. Your comments about the new club are right on. The cost of food and drink in Cameron is obscene, yet we are nearly frisked as we come in to be sure that we didn't bring anything like that from home. [Note: I am not complaining about the security. That's important. But security to prevent my carrying a bottle of water in isn't.] I haven't said goodbye yet, but I am much less excited when players show up on my class list. Feels like college basketball isn't about loving the school and the students and the players and the traditions any more... And that's just sad. Farewell... I suspect I will be following you soon.

If you still want to watch elite athletes who walk in the graduation line (except when the NCAA tournament gets in the way) represent Duke the way its basketball players once did, tt’s a pretty short walk from Cameron to Koskinen.

[richardjackson199]

Perhaps BD80 is suggesting that we have a fabulously talented team this year and that abandoning the sport of college basketball now might be missing out on some of the fun...

Can't speak for BD80, but I think this is right.

It's inevitable that things often change for the worse, and we have no control over it. Money talks - so these players have no control of it, Duke can't control it, K can't control it - just have to adapt.
Some people respond to negative change using unhealthy coping mechanisms like "self-medicating" - "picked the wrong time to quit smoking, ..."

The Airplane quote is funny because it's hyperbole (hopefully for most). You can respond by sniffing glue to escape. Or you can respond by saying Wow, let's embrace and enjoy Coach K and the teams he is assembling while we can.

You better believe Kentucky fans, Deacon fans, Cheat fans, and you name it will rejoice when K retires. That day is coming, sooner or hopefully later. But it's coming and things really will never be the same. They will rejoice because they can't beat this guy - even if they cheat - and they have known it for decades. He is too good, he adapts, and he does things the right way. There will never be another K. There may be another legend as good one day or better, but chances are it won't be at Duke.

So deal with the change in whatever way you choose - boycott Duke hoops, all NCAA hoops, boycott DBR, sniff glue, strip and burn down a tree at the dump, whatever you think makes sense. I think it makes sense to embrace, maximize the moment, and enjoy this while we have it.

[elvis14]

I don't really see a reason to stop being a Duke fan. As far as we know, the Duke athletic program has done nothing wrong.

I don't think people are blaming the players or saying Duke is doing anything wrong. With the current system, Duke is doing just fine. But with the current system, people are not invested in the players like we used to be. For some, it's a mild annoyance. For others that (along with other factors) is enough for them to be done. I'm still in, even though I miss being invested more in the players but I do see a reason for some and I respect them even if I'm not there with them.

[szstark]

I honestly think all this talk is crybaby talk like is kids throwing their toys out of the pram.

Player x is only at Duke for one year so i won't play anymore. Not a Duke fan anymore.

Life changes guys. Get over it.

Tysus stayed one year but he is ok?
Justice the same?

Where is the concern about Josh Hairston? He stayed 4 Years. I could elaborate.

I think that that people that change their support and chose another team or say that they are not a fan anymore aren't a real fan anyway.

No offense meant. Just my opinion. LGD!
Seriously? This is your response to the original author? He has bled Duke blue for 47 years but now he is nothing more than a crybaby? He very eloquently describes not only his feelings but also how he arrived at them, but he needs to “get over it”? No offense meant? This response is offensive not only to the original author but also to anyone who agrees with any or all of what he says. No offense.

[OldPhiKap]

FWIW I am simpatico with the OP in that I do not enjoy Duke basketball as much as I did before the one and done era. And I don’t think it’s just me getting crustier, because I enjoy Duke football as much if not more than ever.

A kid who goes to college for a year is not so much committed to the institution as he is looking for the best developmental springboard to the NBA. And I get that. But as a fan of a particular institution, all I see often is a rented player for a year.

Doesn’t mean I don’t love the kids who come. But my long-term interest in the program is at odds with a short-term interest in having a place to leave one’s bags for a year.

If that makes me a bad fan, so be it.

[richardjackson199]

FWIW I am simpatico with the OP in that I do not enjoy Duke basketball as much as I did before the one and done era. And I don’t think it’s just me getting crustier, because I enjoy Duke football as much if not more than ever.

A kid who goes to college for a year is not so much committed to the institution as he is looking for the best developmental springboard to the NBA. And I get that. But as a fan of a particular institution, all I see often is a rented player for a year.

Doesn’t mean I don’t love the kids who come. But my long-term interest in the program is at odds with a short-term interest in having a place to leave one’s bags for a year.

If that makes me a bad fan, so be it.

You're right and it's tough to argue with this. A kid like Wendell Carter would have been a Grant Hill type who stayed 4 years, hung his jersey in the rafters, and brought us 4 years of bliss - if Carter had played for Duke 1991-94. We'll get to know him for less than 6 months.

It sucks, no denying it. The OP's points are valid, true, and eloquent.

It's not Carter's fault. I don't think Carter has any less loyalty to the program. Times are just different. Harry Giles would have been nuts not to go pro after last season, even though of course he is nowhere near ready. It's just the flawed rules and circumstances now in place.

Just making the best of it. This will be a fun team, and we'll get some great kids for possibly a great 6 months. The good ole days are gone baby gone. But we still have K, and it could be worse.

I'm going to go ahead and disagree with you on one point. I am enjoying Duke basketball much more than Duke football. Talk about picking the wrong time to quit sniffing Toluene

[olddevil]

I don't think people are blaming the players or saying Duke is doing anything wrong. With the current system, Duke is doing just fine. But with the current system, people are not invested in the players like we used to be. For some, it's a mild annoyance. For others that (along with other factors) is enough for them to be done. I'm still in, even though I miss being invested more in the players but I do see a reason for some and I respect them even if I'm not there with them.

I started following Duke basketball in 1967 and I am still a fan. Sure the game has changed but there still is a role for college athletics as part of a university education. Duke basketball is a source of hope in this regard. Just look at recent events. Grayson Allen is a real university student and has a chance to demonstrated that athletic competition can teach lessons that go way beyond what can be learned in a classroom. I will root for this fellow and rejoice in his success. You have got to love Justin Robinson. His teammates sure do. He may not make the NBA but he will succeed in life and playing basketball will be part of his education. Much the same can be said of the other players who are not in the regular rotation.

I was a wrestler as an undergraduate and very jealous of basketball players who seemed to get all of the attention and were not very well developed physically. In fact, I really did not like basketball as a sport. Then, I came to Duke as a graduate student and saw that basketball players could be really athletic! I changed my mind about the sport and became a lifelong fan. This year's team is the most impressive group of athletes we have ever assembled in my time. It is worth following this team to see how far they can develop as a team. What fun!

Duke stands as a model program that clings to good fundamental values in an environment that would corrupt everything good. That is why I will stand by this team and support them as best I can.

[75Crazie]

I think it makes sense to embrace, maximize the moment, and enjoy this while we have it.
And I think it makes very little sense to "embrace" a system of college basketball/football that all but eliminates the "college" connection. I feel as if we are being asked to support a minor league system that has only a vestigial association anymore to the institutions that lend their name to it. I'll grant you, I believe Duke retains more integrity than most of the other major colleges ... but on the other hand, I can't help but feel that Carolina supporters felt exactly the same 10 years ago. I just know that my enjoyment of major college sports has taken a fatal hit. As someone else mentioned here ... bring on lacrosse season.

[gray]

I hardly ever post here, but have been an avid fan and reader of the board since the parquet floor on the front page. Sadly, Walras’ commentary resonates with me. Perhaps, I’m having a mid-life pause, waxing nostalgic about the good old days. But watching Duke basketball doesn’t give me the same feeling of connection with my alma mater that I once felt.

During the first exhibition, near the end of the first half, It was getting ridiculous trying to figure out all of the new faces. Even the front page of the DBR hasn’t learned that we have a player named Jordan Goldwire. Or, maybe it’s Anthony Goldwire after all, and I’m the one who’s confused. Either way, I share the original poster’s sentiment that watching Grayson and a group of (incredibly talented) newcomers is not as satisfying as watching the teams from a bygone era.

Now, I’m not ready to give up on the Devils, but perhaps I will seek out other opportunities to remain connected to Duke. I’ll keep tuning in for now, and discuss the games with my old friends, but man, I sure hope that that someone with a better vision than the NCAA can right the ship.

[OldPhiKap]

I'm going to go ahead and disagree with you on one point. I am enjoying Duke basketball much more than Duke football. Talk about picking the wrong time to quit sniffing Toluene

Okay, “enjoy” is probably not the right word this football season at the moment, although I enjoyed the heck out of the first four games. A better way to put it may be that I was super stoked about the beginning of football season, even though our reasonable goal was just getting back to a Bowl. By contrast, I will watch the basketball team knowing two thing: (1) we are in contention for a championship, and (2) that most or all of our starters are probably gone after this year regardless. To be filled by another group of stud HS players who are looking to stay a year and then move on as well.

Everyone has different reactions, and none is right or wrong. Since I do not watch NBA basketball, the one year stint before leaving Duke doesn’t really grab me. I understand others see it differently, and not trying to convince them of anything.

[richardjackson199]

Okay, “enjoy” is probably not the right word this football season at the moment, although I enjoyed the heck out of the first four games. A better way to put it may be that I was super stoked about the beginning of football season, even though our reasonable goal was just getting back to a Bowl. By contrast, I will watch the basketball team knowing two thing: (1) we are in contention for a championship, and (2) that most or all of our starters are probably gone after this year regardless. To be filled by another group of stud HS players who are looking to stay a year and then move on as well.

Everyone has different reactions, and none is right or wrong. Since I do not watch NBA basketball, the one year stint before leaving Duke doesn’t really grab me. I understand others see it differently, and not trying to convince them of anything.

Agreed. To each his own.

Classic case of don't hate the playa hate the game. If watching the game is too upsetting, well life is short and one is probably better off doing something more enjoyable.

I love Duke basketball, Coach K, DBR, and this team. OAD sucks, but it is what it is. I still find it very enjoyable, and could not be more excited about this team or our prospects for next year. But that's just me.

(Did I work enough cliches into this post, offering my 2 cents?) :cool:

[Reilly]

... Walras was a French economist that made important contributions to theories of marginal value and equilibrium during the 19th century. Walras is not a large, marine mammal.

Who? Economists are people, too (I think).

[rsvman]

.....

It's inevitable that things often change for the worse, and we have no control over it. ......

Actually, what I think is inevitable is that people will always believe that things are changing for the worse. The "good old days" were always better, even if they aren't better in any objective way. Note that I'm not saying that things in college basketball are better than they used to be, I'm just making an observation.

Things change, and most people generally don't like change. Our first instinct is to say that things were better before they changed.

[weezie]

Sighhhh. This is starting to sound like oldsters rocking on the porch and railing at the young'uns.

Enough already. Go where you wanna go, be what you wanna be. Sayonnara!

Let's go Duke!

[rsvman]

Sighhhh. This is starting to sound like oldsters rocking on the porch and railing at the young'uns.

Enough already. Go where you wanna go, be what you wanna be. Sayonnara!

Let's go Duke!

True enough, but my post is the OPPOSITE of the oldsters on the porch. Jus' sayin.'

[OldPhiKap]

True enough, but my post is the OPPOSITE of the oldsters on the porch. Jus' sayin.'

Does that mean you’re standing on my lawn?!?!?

[devildeac]

Does that mean you’re standing on my lawn?!?!?

Your lawn's not big enough for the both of us...

[weezie]

True enough, but my post is the OPPOSITE of the oldsters on the porch. Jus' sayin.'


Yes, understood. Your post was excellent. The whole thread is rather "bare" at this point. That's what I meant.

[PackMan97]

Actually, what I think is inevitable is that people will always believe that things are changing for the worse. The "good old days" were always better, even if they aren't better in any objective way.

Things were definitely better when I only thought the Tarheels were so good because they cheated. Now they are worse because I know the Tarheels are cheating.

The reality is that nothing has changed. The tarheels were cheating before. They cheat now and they will cheat in the future. In any objective way the only thing that has changed is my knowledge. I have eaten the fruits of the forbidden tree and the knowledge has cast me out of basketball eden.