The UNC scandal: I expected better of them

[boyce]

I got to wondering what the reaction to the scandal, and the NCAA's treatment of it, were in Tar-Heel land. It's always so easy to surround yourself with people who agree with you; it takes some courage to expose yourself to opinions that differ from your own in modern America. So, I went lurking over on a Carolina bulletin board with the same sort of resigned-to-destruction attitude that you use to pick a scab until you get it to bleed on one of your nice office shirts.

Here's where I was looking:

https://scout.com/college/north-carolina/Board/102713/Contents/BREAKING-NO-NCAA-SANCTIONS-FOR-UNC-108831683

As with scab-picking, I was utterly disgusted. Maybe 2% of the posts displayed some self-awareness along the lines of "Not the proudest moment of our history, but it's time to move on." The rest were just loathsome. There was vast chortling about squeals of dissappointed anger in Durham in Raleigh, mixed with the worst sort of abuse: "The Moo-U fans are probably burning down their trailer parks!!!" There were calls for lawsuits against the NCAA, Dan Kane, and even opposing fan-bases. I'd be interested to see how exactly you'd identify "State Fans" as defendants in a lawsuit. There was self-righteous calls for banners to be taken down IN CAMERON for Corey Maggette accepting money in high school, and Lance Thomas's premature jewelry shopping. The vast majority completely confused getting off on a technicality as moral vindication. There was the "academic,not athletic" line of reasoning that worked so well in court, as if that was better. There were even some that had the gall to mention "The Carolina Way", as in "The Carolina Way triumphs and rolls on."

Would we have been better had it been us? I'd like to think so.

-Boyce

[DukeFanSince1990]

I tend to be an optimist with most things. With this I see one undeniable good thing. If UNC was punished and had to deal with the consequences, then one day down the road this episode would have been "in the past". Now since they skated the school seems to be irreparably tarnished. They will FOREVER be known as "the cheaters". And not just State and Duke fans either. Any school that was hit in any form is going to be livid. I say sit back and enjoy the hate they get while Duke continues to own the head to head series.

Just my .02

Don't let it get you down.

[UrinalCake]

Taking an optimistic view here... I heard an interview with a Louisville beat writer shortly after the FBI indictments came down, and the writer was asked about fan reaction to all of Pitino's scandals. The way he described it, fans initially refused to believe any of the stripper accusations and claimed it was all jealous Kentucky fans making it up. Once the information was all out there and indisputable, they still minimalized it and said this sort of thing happens everywhere. When the FBI indictments were handed down most fans continued to support Pitino and claimed he didn't know anything. The similarities to the UNC-CHeat fans were strong.

Here's the thing though - the writer claims that 95% of the Louisville fan base is actually disgusted and wanted Pitino fired after the stripper scandal. These are the "soccer mom family" fans that live out in the suburbs. But those people aren't posting on message boards and retweeting hashtags all day. The 5% that supports the basketball program no matter what are the ones making all the noise. But they don't represent the overall sentiment of the fan base.

I don't know if the same is entirely true for CHeat fans, but I do suspect there are in fact fans that are embarrassed and disgusted that you just don't hear from.

[Jeffrey]

It's always so easy to surround yourself with people who agree with you; it takes some courage to expose yourself to opinions that differ from your own in modern America.

Yep, it's easy, boring, and mind-numbing.

I prefer the opposite approach. For example, IMO, a coach should not be a University's highest paid employee. Our society should not place sports before education.

[BandAlum83]

I got to wondering what the reaction to the scandal, and the NCAA's treatment of it, were in Tar-Heel land. It's always so easy to surround yourself with people who agree with you; it takes some courage to expose yourself to opinions that differ from your own in modern America. So, I went lurking over on a Carolina bulletin board with the same sort of resigned-to-destruction attitude that you use to pick a scab until you get it to bleed on one of your nice office shirts.

Here's where I was looking:

https://scout.com/college/north-carolina/Board/102713/Contents/BREAKING-NO-NCAA-SANCTIONS-FOR-UNC-108831683

As with scab-picking, I was utterly disgusted. Maybe 2% of the posts displayed some self-awareness along the lines of "Not the proudest moment of our history, but it's time to move on." The rest were just loathsome. There was vast chortling about squeals of dissappointed anger in Durham in Raleigh, mixed with the worst sort of abuse: "The Moo-U fans are probably burning down their trailer parks!!!" There were calls for lawsuits against the NCAA, Dan Kane, and even opposing fan-bases. I'd be interested to see how exactly you'd identify "State Fans" as defendants in a lawsuit. There was self-righteous calls for banners to be taken down IN CAMERON for Corey Maggette accepting money in high school, and Lance Thomas's premature jewelry shopping. The vast majority completely confused getting off on a technicality as moral vindication. There was the "academic,not athletic" line of reasoning that worked so well in court, as if that was better. There were even some that had the gall to mention "The Carolina Way", as in "The Carolina Way triumphs and rolls on."

Would we have been better had it been us? I'd like to think so.

-Boyce

I definitely believe we would be much more introspective. I know I would be one of the ones definitely calling for dropping division I sports.

By the way, good to see another House CC forum member. We are legion!

[left_hook_lacey]

Taking an optimistic view here... I heard an interview with a Louisville beat writer shortly after the FBI indictments came down, and the writer was asked about fan reaction to all of Pitino's scandals. The way he described it, fans initially refused to believe any of the stripper accusations and claimed it was all jealous Kentucky fans making it up. Once the information was all out there and indisputable, they still minimalized it and said this sort of thing happens everywhere. When the FBI indictments were handed down most fans continued to support Pitino and claimed he didn't know anything. The similarities to the UNC-CHeat fans were strong.

Here's the thing though - the writer claims that 95% of the Louisville fan base is actually disgusted and wanted Pitino fired after the stripper scandal. These are the "soccer mom family" fans that live out in the suburbs. But those people aren't posting on message boards and retweeting hashtags all day. The 5% that supports the basketball program no matter what are the ones making all the noise. But they don't represent the overall sentiment of the fan base.

I don't know if the same is entirely true for CHeat fans, but I do suspect there are in fact fans that are embarrassed and disgusted that you just don't hear from.

You would be correct. At least in my personal experience. As I've said on this board before, I have several close family members that are UNC grads. One of which actually worked for UNC for a long time. She has left the Ram's club after 17 years of membership and has not been to a sporting event since the Weinstein report was released.

My uncle drove to CH in the early 80's and slept in his car to practice with the team to try to walk-on. He has a personal letter from Dean Smith about his determination, work ethic, and drive and it still hangs in frame in my Grandmothers' living room. He used to record UNC games on VHS tape and watch them over and over again until the next game came on. This scandal has destroyed him. He thinks his idol Dean knew, he thinks Roy knew,and thinks The Carolina Way is nothing resembling what he once thought. It has ruined his love of college sports and he doesn't watch any games of any kind anymore. When family members try to make small talk and ask how UNC or Duke look this year, his response is always, "I've given up on it."

I have another cousin that is a UNC grad that is of the mindset that the OP described in his post. He's having t-shirts made. :mad:

[MChambers]

The UNC alums who are appalled by the whole thing don't really have a place to express their feelings.

A good friend of mine threw out all of her UNC paraphenalia after the Weinstein report came out. She is even more appalled by the NCAA's action.

Now, I do know some UNC grads who have chosen to ignore the whole thing. Basically, they're sticking their heads in the sand.

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

If you expected better, you haven't been paying very close attention.

[BigWayne]

I expect better of Duke actually. I expected UNC fans to act like described by the OP.

I have not watched an NCAA FB game since the travesty of the NCAA ruling on UNC, including Duke games. I will not be watching any NCAA BB games either, including Duke games, until Duke comes out and makes a stand against this ruling.

I believe, though not as confidently as in the past, that the Duke administration would not behave like the UNC administration were something like this to happen at Duke. However, the fact that Duke has not addressed this travesty in any way that I can see, makes them guilty in my eyes by silent complicity.

[BlueTeuf]

I'd like to see another investigative body, say 60 Minutes or ProPublica, cherry-pick a lesser explored element of the overall UNC climate and produce an exposé. My vote would be the learning disability assessments that players took (coached to perform poorly) so they could receive academic/testing accommodations and be prescribed Ritalin. So, not a retrial of the fake class issue, but another powerful demonstration of organizational abuse of the student-athlete.

My expectation is the publication would appropriately reference background info (AFAM, etc), reveal the complete lack of institutional control, accurately portray the NCAA as complicit, and cement for the uninitiated - that despite no sanction, UNC leadership's ethical comportment ha been reprehensible.

Dan Kane could do the research - but he will come off as biased and a "sore loser". Maybe Mary Willingham can pitch the idea to Leslie Stahl.

[rsvman]

I expect better of Duke actually. I expected UNC fans to act like described by the OP.

I have not watched an NCAA FB game since the travesty of the NCAA ruling on UNC, including Duke games. I will not be watching any NCAA BB games either, including Duke games, until Duke comes out and makes a stand against this ruling.

I believe, though not as confidently as in the past, that the Duke administration would not behave like the UNC administration were something like this to happen at Duke. However, the fact that Duke has not addressed this travesty in any way that I can see, makes them guilty in my eyes by silent complicity.

C'mon! Nothing to be gained by coming out and saying something. It would just make people hate us even more than they already do.

Anybody who has a brain and knows the story is already appalled. Anybody who is not already appalled is not going to be convinced by anybody's statement, let alone by a statement from a rival institution.

[richardjackson199]

Taking an optimistic view here... I heard an interview with a Louisville beat writer shortly after the FBI indictments came down, and the writer was asked about fan reaction to all of Pitino's scandals. The way he described it, fans initially refused to believe any of the stripper accusations and claimed it was all jealous Kentucky fans making it up. Once the information was all out there and indisputable, they still minimalized it and said this sort of thing happens everywhere. When the FBI indictments were handed down most fans continued to support Pitino and claimed he didn't know anything. The similarities to the UNC-CHeat fans were strong.

Here's the thing though - the writer claims that 95% of the Louisville fan base is actually disgusted and wanted Pitino fired after the stripper scandal. These are the "soccer mom family" fans that live out in the suburbs. But those people aren't posting on message boards and retweeting hashtags all day. The 5% that supports the basketball program no matter what are the ones making all the noise. But they don't represent the overall sentiment of the fan base.

I don't know if the same is entirely true for CHeat fans, but I do suspect there are in fact fans that are embarrassed and disgusted that you just don't hear from.

This is correct.

Both types are out there, and we mostly only hear from the former type.

I will admit, I am married to a UNC-Tar Heel. She grew up in small-town north carolina, and comes from a family of die-hard tar-heel sports fans. She went to UNC for undergrad and for medical school. She was accepted to Duke for undergrad and wanted to go there, but the price-tag difference in-state was tough to argue with considering future student loans. Of course she cheered for the tar-heels in all sports. Past tense.

Not now. She has been absolutely disgusted by the entire thing. She worked hard for her education and degrees, and feels this has tarnished their value. She threw away all her Tar-heel paraphernalia, and no longer cheers for UNC in any sport. She detests Roy Williams, and thinks he knew. She is absolutely appalled by the university's approach to the entire sordid affair. She has certainly never posted on a sports message board.

I know another physician colleague I work with who is an avid Tar-heel fan. He is glad UNC fought the NCAA and won. He is quite intelligent, but sounds about like the folks on IC when talking about it.

Another psychotherapist UNC-grad colleague I work with is appalled. He said - "don't lump me in with that. I'm not ok with what they did."

I suspect many more casual Tar-heel fans haven't kept up with the intricate details, and just assume that the NCAA clearing them is tantamount to exoneration. I'd like to hope that most of them would appreciate that getting away with what they did on a technicality and taking no responsibility for it is despicable.

I think UrinalCake is dead on.

[devildeac]

This is correct.

Both types are out there, and we mostly only hear from the former type.

I will admit, I am married to a UNC-Tar Heel. She grew up in small-town north carolina, and comes from a family of die-hard tar-heel sports fans. She went to UNC for undergrad and for medical school. She was accepted to Duke for undergrad and wanted to go there, but the price-tag difference in-state was tough to argue with considering future student loans. Of course she cheered for the tar-heels in all sports. Past tense.

Not now. She has been absolutely disgusted by the entire thing. She worked hard for her education and degrees, and feels this has tarnished their value. She threw away all her Tar-heel paraphernalia, and no longer cheers for UNC in any sport. She detests Roy Williams, and thinks he knew. She is absolutely appalled by the university's approach to the entire sordid affair. She has certainly never posted on a sports message board.

I know another physician colleague I work with who is an avid Tar-heel fan. He is glad UNC fought the NCAA and won. He is quite intelligent, but sounds about like the folks on IC when talking about it.

Another psychotherapist UNC-grad colleague I work with is appalled. He said - "don't lump me in with that. I'm not ok with what they did."

I suspect many more casual Tar-heel fans haven't kept up with the intricate details, and just assume that the NCAA clearing them is tantamount to exoneration. I'd like to hope that most of them would appreciate that getting away with what they did on a technicality and taking no responsibility for it is despicable.

I think UrinalCake is dead on.

Three (or more) cheers for Dr. Mrs. richardjackson199. If y'all attend the GT tailgate, I've got her first beer covered. (You, of course, still owe me my consultant's fee/s :p.)

[fuse]

I am reluctantly breaking my silence on this thread.

My personal DBR make a wish would be that there be no more discussion of UNC of any kind other than game day match up threads.

Everything else related to UNC is just full of sound and fury, signifying nothing.

[OldPhiKap]

I am reluctantly breaking my silence on this thread.

My personal DBR make a wish would be that there be no more discussion of UNC of any kind other than game day match up threads.

Everything else related to UNC is just full of sound and fury, signifying nothing.

This.

I see EXACTLY what I expect from them.

Go to Hell, Carolina. and please just go away. f ‘em.

[Scorp4me]

Yep, it's easy, boring, and mind-numbing.

I prefer the opposite approach. For example, IMO, a coach should not be a University's highest paid employee. Our society should not place sports before education.

I could agree more Jeffrey.

And I, like many of you, know family and friends who are UNC fans who are disgusted. Much like winning a championship helps recruiting years down the road, I imagine UNC won't see the repercussions of their actions til a few years down the road when the number of new fans is drastically less.

[BigWayne]

C'mon! Nothing to be gained by coming out and saying something. It would just make people hate us even more than they already do.

Anybody who has a brain and knows the story is already appalled. Anybody who is not already appalled is not going to be convinced by anybody's statement, let alone by a statement from a rival institution.

Nothing to be gained but maybe a backbone of integrity, which the Duke admins lost about a decade ago.

[madscavenger]

..................... I believe, though not as confidently as in the past, that the Duke administration would not behave like the UNC administration were something like this to happen at Duke. However, the fact that Duke has not addressed this travesty in any way that I can see, makes them guilty in my eyes by silent complicity.

Amy Herman?????????


http://mindingthecoach.blogspot.com/2016/04/amy-herman.html

Scroll down



In the supplement document release to the Wainstein Report, there is an item illustrating the basis for Wainstein's conclusion and characterization of Herman's relationship to the scandal. In a 2008 email between Herman and one of the academic counselors to student-athletes, Brent Blanton:


My Commentary

I think it's fair to say that Herman -- nor anyone charged with monitoring NCAA rules compliance -- is responsible for assessing academic quality or rigor of curricula a school provides for student-athletes. Just as the NCAA seeks to distance itself from auditing its members academic self-determination, compliance staff are not in the business of questioning or critiquing how faculty run their classes.

Kenneth Wainstein concluded that though Herman, like many others, was aware of the "easy" status of the so-called "paper classes," she (also like many others claim) was not aware of the fraudulent aspects of the arrangement, particularly that administrative assistant Debbi Crowder was grading and administering classwork as proxy for Dr. Julius Nyang'oro.

She was -- obviously, if only from the communique above -- aware of the "infamous" reputation of the classes and clearly exposed to the "nudge, nudge, wink, wink, say no more" sentiment among staffers like Blanton (who the University would later fire). Additionally, it would be fully within her purview to audit whether or not these "infamous" classes were being arranged for or accessed by student-athletes or by counseling staff for student-athletes, or delivered by faculty, for the benefit of student-athletes either solely or disproportionately.

Given that the NCAA's decision to pursue violations for "impermissible benefits" violations vice academic fraud was not predicted by many prior to the delivery of Notice of Allegations to UNC in 2015, it might seem like 20/20 hindsight to say Herman failed in her diligence to identify and protect the university from the impact of what Wainstein called a "shadow curriculum." Wainstein did relate that Herman's focus when it came to the question of "paper classes" was whether they were available to all students; which they were.

This "available to all students" argument has been a staple defense, not simply of Herman, but of everyone who had some knowledge of paper classes. Not a single person, including those the University would subsequently discharge and/or penalize for their roles in the scandal, have accepted any responsibility. Herman, herself, was never charged nor criticized (except by some private individuals and commentators). Duke, when contacted by concerned alumni, has stood by its hiring of Amy Herman.

But much has been revealed since then and if (big "IF") UNC does wind up being sanctioned for Lack of Institutional Control, then that is a finding, specifically, of a failure in UNC's compliance.

How that wouldn't taint Amy Herman as a compliance official, particularly in light of her cavalier communication with one of those fired for participating in what UNC, itself, agreed was academic fraud, I can't answer. But it should concern Duke University.



Posted by B.Martin at 8:17 AM

[jv001]

This.

I see EXACTLY what I expect from them.

Go to Hell, Carolina. and please just go away. f ‘em.

They've cheated way way back, began in the late 50's and it never changed. I expect them to cheat in sports every year. That's who they are. Their fans are the worst in college sports. Yes, even worse than the Terp fans. Any game they win in any sport will be won by cheating. So, when a cheat fan begins to brag about one of their wins, I'll remind them of their biggest academic/athletic scandal in college sports history and how they are connected to OJ Simpson for life. The less said about the cheats the better. GoDuke!

[BLPOG]

Nothing to be gained but maybe a backbone of integrity, which the Duke admins lost about a decade ago.

Couldn't spork, but this statement is exactly right, IMO.

[howardlander]

I could agree more Jeffrey.

And I, like many of you, know family and friends who are UNC fans who are disgusted. Much like winning a championship helps recruiting years down the road, I imagine UNC won't see the repercussions of their actions til a few years down the road when the number of new fans is drastically less.

I'll say this: I live in Durham (and work at UNC, but not on campus) and, at least anecdotally, I seem to see a lot less cheater-ware being worn in public. You'll still see it occasionally, but I do think they've alienated a lot of their fans. I was flipping through channels on Saturday and caught a bit of the UNC-Miami game. The stadium was no more than half full, maybe considerably less. They are having a bad year, but it was still surprising.

Howard

[PackMan97]

The stadium was no more than half full, maybe considerably less. They are having a bad year, but it was still surprising.

You've never paid attention to their football program. Even when Mack Brown was there, football season ended when basketball practice started. They are and forever will be a basketball school.

Their new FB helmet, new FB uniform and new FB cleats all feature the "jumpman" logo of Michael Jordan playing basketball. Why anyone with talent ever goes to play for Carolina football is beyond me.

[Dr. Rosenrosen]

You've never paid attention to their football program. Even when Mack Brown was there, football season ended when basketball practice started. They are and forever will be a basketball school.

Their new FB helmet, new FB uniform and new FB cleats all feature the "jumpman" logo of Michael Jordan playing basketball. Why anyone with talent ever goes to play for Carolina football is beyond me.
Not to mention they had the nerve (stupidity?) to put MJ’s “ceiling is the roof” blather in their football stadium as well. Does anyone think he is smart enough to cringe every time he sees it in print?

[devildeac]

You've never paid attention to their football program. Even when Mack Brown was there, football season ended when basketball practice started. They are and forever will be a basketball school.

Their new FB helmet, new FB uniform and new FB cleats all feature the "jumpman" logo of Michael Jordan playing basketball. Why anyone with talent ever goes to play for Carolina football is beyond me.

Easy. Two words: fake classes.

[howardlander]

You've never paid attention to their football program. Even when Mack Brown was there, football season ended when basketball practice started. They are and forever will be a basketball school.

Well maybe, but it was just a few years ago (I think 2011) that they most recently expanded Kenan stadium so they could increase attendance. They were certainly not expecting this. Anyway, I think the point is the same. The scandal has cost them even support if the NCAA didn't have the integrity to punish them appropriately.

Howard

[PackMan97]

Well maybe, but it was just a few years ago (I think 2011) that they most recently expanded Kenan stadium so they could increase attendance. They were certainly not expecting this. Anyway, I think the point is the same. The scandal has cost them even support if the NCAA didn't have the integrity to punish them appropriately.

I'll believe that when they aren't a one win team.and when it's affecting basketball. Although I do love how their attendance numbers are so obviously faked.

vs Cal - 49,500
vs UofL - 47,000
vs Duke - 59,000
vs ND - 57,000
vs UVa - 50,000
vs UofM - 45,000

Fascinating that with the exception of Cal, every game has seen an attendance was measured to the nearest thousand. LOL! Lying cheaters.

[devildeac]

I'll believe that when they aren't a one win team.and when it's affecting basketball. Although I do love how their attendance numbers are so obviously faked.

vs Cal - 49,500
vs UofL - 47,000
vs Duke - 59,000
vs ND - 57,000
vs UVa - 50,000
vs UofM - 45,000

Fascinating that with the exception of Cal, every game has seen an attendance was measured to the nearest thousand. LOL! Lying cheaters.

Maybe they were quoting their sanction-avoiding legal fees those weeks...

:rolleyes:

[NSDukeFan]

I'll believe that when they aren't a one win team.and when it's affecting basketball. Although I do love how their attendance numbers are so obviously faked.

vs Cal - 49,500
vs UofL - 47,000
vs Duke - 59,000
vs ND - 57,000
vs UVa - 50,000
vs UofM - 45,000

Fascinating that with the exception of Cal, every game has seen an attendance was measured to the nearest thousand. LOL! Lying cheaters.


Maybe they were quoting their sanction-avoiding legal fees those weeks...

:rolleyes:

I believe those numbers were plagiarized.

[Jeffrey]

Not to mention they had the nerve (stupidity?) to put MJ’s “ceiling is the roof” blather in their football stadium as well. Does anyone think he is smart enough to cringe every time he sees it in print?

Why should he cringe? More attention makes him more money.

[devildeac]

I believe those numbers were plagiarized.

Or crowder-ized. :rolleyes:

[Ima Facultiwyfe]

I'll say this: I live in Durham (and work at UNC, but not on campus) and, at least anecdotally, I seem to see a lot less cheater-ware being worn in public. You'll still see it occasionally, but I do think they've alienated a lot of their fans. I was flipping through channels on Saturday and caught a bit of the UNC-Miami game. The stadium was no more than half full, maybe considerably less. They are having a bad year, but it was still surprising.

Howard

I live on the hump and as far as embarrassment is concerned, I even cringe a little when I have to give it as my return address. I hate to think people in other parts of the country might think I'm affiliated in some way with this Kool-ade drinking nation of sheep braying along the Carolina Way. (Bless their misguided hearts.)
Love, Ima

[Highlander]

This is correct.

Both types are out there, and we mostly only hear from the former type.

I will admit, I am married to a UNC-Tar Heel. She grew up in small-town north carolina, and comes from a family of die-hard tar-heel sports fans. She went to UNC for undergrad and for medical school. She was accepted to Duke for undergrad and wanted to go there, but the price-tag difference in-state was tough to argue with considering future student loans. Of course she cheered for the tar-heels in all sports. Past tense.

Not now. She has been absolutely disgusted by the entire thing. She worked hard for her education and degrees, and feels this has tarnished their value. She threw away all her Tar-heel paraphernalia, and no longer cheers for UNC in any sport. She detests Roy Williams, and thinks he knew. She is absolutely appalled by the university's approach to the entire sordid affair. She has certainly never posted on a sports message board.

I know another physician colleague I work with who is an avid Tar-heel fan. He is glad UNC fought the NCAA and won. He is quite intelligent, but sounds about like the folks on IC when talking about it.

Another psychotherapist UNC-grad colleague I work with is appalled. He said - "don't lump me in with that. I'm not ok with what they did."

I suspect many more casual Tar-heel fans haven't kept up with the intricate details, and just assume that the NCAA clearing them is tantamount to exoneration. I'd like to hope that most of them would appreciate that getting away with what they did on a technicality and taking no responsibility for it is despicable.

I think UrinalCake is dead on.

I always wonder how these weddings between passionate Duke and UNC grads shake out, but I never expected I'd see a tried and true UNC fan swear off their allegiances. I will have to make sure and let Mrs. Highlander know ;)

[whereinthehellami]

The best part of the UNC cheating scandal has been the years of entertainment it has provided. And the football team is 1-8. Good lord that is bad.

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

[/B]

Easy. Two words: fake classes.

If the concept of NCAA sports is "we give you an education, you provide your talent for sports," one only harms one's self by not receiving the education.

It is sort of like saying "I will give you a nickel for this piece of gum," and I say "no way, I would rather have a wooden nickel."

[elvis14]

They've cheated way way back, began in the late 50's and it never changed. I expect them to cheat in sports every year. That's who they are. Their fans are the worst in college sports. Yes, even worse than the Terp fans. Any game they win in any sport will be won by cheating. So, when a cheat fan begins to brag about one of their wins, I'll remind them of their biggest academic/athletic scandal in college sports history and how they are connected to OJ Simpson for life. The less said about the cheats the better. GoDuke!

They are OJU

http://forums.dukebasketballreport.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=7757&stc=1

[PackMan97]

If the concept of NCAA sports is "we give you an education, you provide your talent for sports," one only harms one's self by not receiving the education.

It is sort of like saying "I will give you a nickel for this piece of gum," and I say "no way, I would rather have a wooden nickel."

Two things wrong with your analogies...

1) That these 17-18-19 year old kids are able to look past life after sports and make responsible decisions that directly contradict the wishes of their coaches.

2) You assume that receiving an education is effortless and would not detract from their goal of playing professionally.

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

Two things wrong with your analogies...

1) That these 17-18-19 year old kids are able to look past life after sports and make responsible decisions that directly contradict the wishes of their coaches.

2) You assume that receiving an education is effortless and would not detract from their goal of playing professionally.

Well, I was meaning more from the perspective of the inept NCAA. If the argument is "these kids receive an education in fair trade for their talents, therefore paying them isn't necessary," how do you then work around situations where players are clearly not receiving said education?

Also, I just wanted to use the phrase "wooden nickel."

[Jeffrey]

You assume that receiving an education is effortless and would not detract from their goal of playing professionally.

Many will never reach that goal and a backup plan might be prudent!

[NSDukeFan]

2) You assume that receiving an education is effortless and would not detract from their goal of playing professionally.
I believe I've heard of an instance where that's the case.

[PackMan97]

Many will never reach that goal and a backup plan might be prudent!

LOL! ...and you expect an 18 year old to be able to think that far ahead?

[DukieInKansas]

LOL! ...and you expect an 18 year old to be able to think that far ahead?

Isn't that where the so-called adults are supposed to step in with guidance?

[devildeac]

Isn't that where the so-called adults are supposed to step in with guidance?

Paraphrasing:

"We know what these kids are doing every day."

"We have 13-17 players on the team. We can't possibly keep track of all their activities."

roy ( http://forums.dukebasketballreport.com/forums/showthread.php?40630-Venomous-Snakes-Of-NC ) williams

[Jeffrey]

Isn't that where the so-called adults are supposed to step in with guidance?

Yes, I would certainly like to believe people in higher education care about student-athletes. I'd also like to believe there is a reason "student" comes before "athlete".

[Jeffrey]

Paraphrasing:

"We know what these kids are doing every day."

"We have 13-17 players on the team. We can't possibly keep track of all their activities."

roy ( http://forums.dukebasketballreport.com/forums/showthread.php?40630-Venomous-Snakes-Of-NC ) williams

Money and greed frequently travel in the same vehicle. IMO, the arrival of massive money has not helped college athletics.

[Wander]

Would we have been better had it been us?

No. I mean, of course some of us individually might have, but as a whole? Probably not. It's the nature of sports fan bases. Penn State did things about 1000000000 times worse than UNC, and look at how a large, vocal segment of their fans reacted.

[devildeac]

Yes, I would certainly like to believe people in higher education care about student-athletes. I'd also like to believe there is a reason "student" comes before "athlete".

"Santa Claus is comin' to town..."

[devildeac]

Money and greed frequently travel in the same vehicle. IMO, the arrival of massive money has not helped college athletics.

No disagreement there.

[Jeffrey]

"Santa Claus is comin' to town..."

Groovy, the fat man rocks!

[OldPhiKap]

Groovy, the fat man rocks!

Fat man melts. Skinny man spits.

[PackMan97]

The BOG has finally spoken out on the matter of UNC getting off on all charges. Their message? Pay Bubba for a job well done!

http://www.newsobserver.com/news/local/education/article182545851.html


CHAPEL HILL
UNC-Chapel Hill Athletics Director Bubba Cunningham will get $200,000 a year in deferred compensation payments for the next five years in a new deal approved Friday by the UNC Board of Governors.

Three board members voted against the new pay package for Cunningham, which will be funded with athletic department money not tied to tuition or state appropriations.

Marty Kotis, a board member and Greensboro businessman, said he opposed the deal because no one other than campus chancellors and the UNC president are eligible for that type of compensation, which consists of tax-deferred retirement contributions that can be tapped later.