PDA

View Full Version : Heels hoops discussion '17-'18 - no unc athletics scandal discussions



Pages : [1] 2

Wheat/"/"/"
10-25-2017, 12:13 AM
The season is about to get going so I thought I'd stop by and give you guys that like to talk hoops my pre season assessment of the '17-18 Heels team.

Roy returns with an interesting team this year. While UNC will get the ball into the post as usual offensively, this will be a team that will more often rely on kick outs and shooting for much of the 1/2 court production, and they will...as Roy's teams always do...look to run at every opportunity to create mismatches in the open floor.

I'm guessing two freshmen bigs will be counted on to play quality minutes inside this season. C/PF Garrison Brooks has shown some true post moves and the most complete game. C Brandon Huffman is a strong energy guy who tries to dunk everything, but hasn't developed much of a scoring touch yet. They look to be the most ready to contribute.

Other bigs- Fr. Sterling Manley is a legit long armed 7footer that reminds me of Brendan Haywood. He has some offensive touch but needs to get into better shape after a HS broken leg has held him back. He's a year away from seeing much court time. Same with 6'11 Fr. Walker Miller who also has to get stronger.
All seem to have good hands for bigs, and, with the exception of Miller, are physical defenders and rebounders...from what I see so far.

My guess on starters by ACC play...(Roy is likely to play any lineup until then, he will test the young players early).

C Brooks
PF Maye
SF Johnson
2g Williams
PG Berry

Bench
Pinson
Felton
Woods
Robinson
Huffman
Platek

Brief Player breakdown-

Sr. Berry- Leader, gritty. One of the top PG's in the country. Steps up in big games. Deadly shooter with time and can finish at the rim through contact. Gets after the ball and sets the tone defensively. Recent broken hand shouldn't be much of a set back. Experienced, He's been there, done that. ACC and NPOY candidate.

Sr. Pinson-Candidate for top 6th man in the ACC. Versatile utility man. Defends, penetrates, rebounds, facilitates. Not a primary shooting option, but adequate to keep defense honest. Experienced.

Jr. Maye- Crafty rebounder and deceptively strong. Good shooting stretch 4 with solid post scoring moves given space. Can struggle defensively against true bigs, will have to manage his fouls. Experienced.

Sr. Johnson- Pure shooter. One of the sweetest strokes in the ACC. Great size at the wing 6'8", long arms. Fundamentally sound. Will need to develop more aggressiveness with the ball and on the boards. NBA future. Experienced.

Jr. Williams- Good athlete, shooter, defender and rebounder at the 2g. Smart and steady glue guy that keeps the ball moving and makes plays. Injuries have set him back, but he's healthy to start the season. Experienced.

Fr. Brooks- Again, the freshman has some skill and size. Solid athlete. Need to see more...

So. Woods- Excellent athlete. Reminds me of Dexter Strickland from years past. Can blow by people and make the athletic play. Tightened his handle after a rocky freshman start last season and started to show some confidence in his game late season. Growing in his decision making. Needs to improve his outside shot to play a prime time role.

Fr. Felton- What little I've seen of him is impressive. Long PG that can get to the rim on anybody. Good vision, shot looks ok. Need to see more...

So. Robinson- I really like this kid and how he's developing. Long wing, but skinny. Active. Aggressive. Quick. Solid handle. Scorer mentality. Will earn some quality minutes somehow.

Fr. Huffman-Looks like a strong kid who knows how to use his body inside. Need to see more..

Platek- Seems to have the coaches son, gym rat game. Fundamentally sound everywhere but lacks explosive athleticism. Good size for a 2g...need to see more...

Roy has built another team that can contend for a championship. They are unselfish, balanced and confident. Freshman bigs will have to step up rebounding the ball for their best chance at going far, otherwise, Roy will play small and depend on what should be a good outside shooting team... always risky in tournaments.

Ultrarunner
10-25-2017, 12:29 AM
The season is about to get going so I thought I'd stop by and give you guys that like to talk hoops my pre season assessment of the '17-18 Heels team.


I don't participate in rigged games unless I must. That is not the case here. My assessment is that this is the last season I watch hoops as a direct result of the tar heels.

Kedsy
10-25-2017, 12:36 AM
Roy has built another team that can contend for a championship.

I think this is an upper-half ACC team. Probably 3rd or 4th if everything goes well (although the Berry injury is ominous). Maybe could contend for the ACC tournament championship. But if you're talking about the NCAA championship, that's a stretch. This is a #3 to #6 seed team. I suppose nothing's impossible, but this UNC team is quite a long shot for the Final Four. More likely ceiling is Sweet 16.

DavidBenAkiva
10-25-2017, 01:14 AM
I think this is an upper-half ACC team. Probably 3rd or 4th if everything goes well (although the Berry injury is ominous). Maybe could contend for the ACC tournament championship. But if you're talking about the NCAA championship, that's a stretch. This is a #3 to #6 seed team. I suppose nothing's impossible, but this UNC team is quite a long shot for the Final Four. More likely ceiling is Sweet 16.

Totally agree with Kedsy here. The strength of the UNC team the past few years has been offensive rebounding. The team just lost a bevvy of big, experienced bodies and is looking to replace that with Luke Maye, a decent forward prospect in Garrison Brooks, and some serious questions. That's a big step down from Kennedy Meeks, Isaiah Hicks, and Justin Jackson. Expecting to contend for a national title with that much of a question mark is wearing rose-colored glasses to an extreme. Now, the Heels should be a tough out. I'm not saying they will be garbage despite my sincerest hopes and dreams. But talk of Final Fours and National Titles when you haven't seen the frontcourt against meaningful competition? Good luck with those expectations.

accfanfrom1970
10-25-2017, 04:46 AM
I'll ask the obvious. Is there anyone here, any Duke fan, that honestly wants to discuss uncheats basketball? Seriously, how?

plimnko
10-25-2017, 04:54 AM
I'll ask the obvious. Is there anyone here, any Duke fan, that honestly wants to discuss uncheats basketball? Seriously, how?

in a word......NO!

jv001
10-25-2017, 06:38 AM
This posts talks of a team that I refuse to acknowledge even exists. What they have done to college sports is unforgiveable. Plus they never received proper punishment. Just OJ Simpson.

NO COMMENT!!!!

GoDuke!

elvis14
10-25-2017, 07:08 AM
OJU - bought their way into the last 2 tournaments. Benefitted by holding players back in a couple of years where the NCAA was down (in a large part because of injuries to our team). Cheated for 20+ years. Dean knew. Roy knew. Bought their way out of punishment. I hope they lose every game.

I apologize for posting in this thread and I hope if falls off the first page by end of day and that I never have to see it again.

Cheaters.

TKG
10-25-2017, 07:32 AM
Given the public comments made about the three decades old cheating scandal at UNCLV by DBR, both on the front page of this site and in DBR podcasts I would request, respectfully, that this thread not only be locked but removed from the forum in its entirety.

whereinthehellami
10-25-2017, 07:44 AM
I hope this thread stays open and that all the followup posts only talk about their rampant cheating and cover-up. Don't let them lift the cloud and sweep this under the rug. They think they spent $18 million for a win. They didn't. Cheaters, cheated, and cheating.

Wheat/"/"/"
10-25-2017, 08:11 AM
Totally agree with Kedsy here. The strength of the UNC team the past few years has been offensive rebounding. The team just lost a bevvy of big, experienced bodies and is looking to replace that with Luke Maye, a decent forward prospect in Garrison Brooks, and some serious questions. That's a big step down from Kennedy Meeks, Isaiah Hicks, and Justin Jackson. Expecting to contend for a national title with that much of a question mark is wearing rose-colored glasses to an extreme. Now, the Heels should be a tough out. I'm not saying they will be garbage despite my sincerest hopes and dreams. But talk of Final Fours and National Titles when you haven't seen the frontcourt against meaningful competition? Good luck with those expectations.

Rebounding and post defense is absolutely the biggest concern for this team. But, I've seen Brooks and Huffman, they are not the "project" type kids as feshmen you are used to seeing from Roy. They are physically ready. Roy has a good eye on kids with post strengths like boxing out and "nose for the ball"...we'll see if they can step up.

I think they can be a good enough rebounding team given the overall experience they have with the backcourt and wings. We'll see more crashing the boards from them to help the bigs out.

I think this team will be exciting. Lots of deep shooting, attacking the rim and ball pressure defense. Less power paint basketball than the past few years.

I see them a a top 3 ACC team, elite 8 potential.

weezie
10-25-2017, 08:32 AM
Bonzie Colson 2 is still in college?

Wow, that guy. He looks pretty good for a 45 year old.

chrishoke
10-25-2017, 08:45 AM
C H E A T E R S!

Please lock and detete.

davekay1971
10-25-2017, 08:45 AM
In what league do the Heels play? They don't pay the players, so they're not a pro team. But it's clearly not a college since they made a decision 25 years ago not to educate their players. IIRC, the ACC and NCAA are organizations of colleges, so they clearly aren't a NCAA team and clearly don't compete for ACC honors.

I guess that makes them a exhibition barn-storming kind of squad.

Still, they seem like a pretty talented lot for exhibition games, so I'm sure Duke will get some good practice against them, which will help prep us for playing actual college teams!

MChambers
10-25-2017, 08:53 AM
I'll ask the obvious. Is there anyone here, any Duke fan, that honestly wants to discuss uncheats basketball? Seriously, how?

I just came to here to say this is the last time I’ll look at this thread. Adios.

dukelifer
10-25-2017, 08:54 AM
Bonzie Colson 2 is still in college?

Wow, that guy. He looks pretty good for a 45 year old.

While he seems old - he is surprisingly young. Only 21. Hansbrough was 24 when he graduated.

DukePA
10-25-2017, 08:56 AM
Not our rivals.

left_hook_lacey
10-25-2017, 09:03 AM
I think this is an upper-half ACC team. Probably 3rd or 4th if everything goes well (although the Berry injury is ominous). Maybe could contend for the ACC tournament championship. But if you're talking about the NCAA championship, that's a stretch. This is a #3 to #6 seed team. I suppose nothing's impossible, but this UNC team is quite a long shot for the Final Four. More likely ceiling is Sweet 16.

This is pretty spot on. UNC will have to have all the planets align in order to make a deep NCAA tournament run this year. They would need...

a.) Win a few games they would be heavy dogs in.
b.) Make a deep run, or even win the ACC to get a better NCAA seed.
c.) Get a favorable draw on selection Sunday
d.) Have a surprise breakout season from Garrison Brooks to even remotely fill the void left inside by the loss of Hicks and Meeks.
e.) Felton would need to adapt quickly to the college game, to give UNC a 1-2 punch at PG so there's not a lot of fall off when Berry goes out. Word on the street is, Felton has thus far been "hard to coach" which is code for being lazy and spoiled. He's probably never been coached hard his whole life given his talent level and pedigree. That could be an interesting development as this season goes on. If Ole Roy can break through to him and get him to buy-in, look out. If he cowers away from the conflict and pouts, it will be a season long distraction as to why he's not getting minutes etc. Stay tuned on that one.
f.) BERRY HAS TO STAY HEALTHY. If Berry were to go out for any significant amount of time, or have a nagging injury that keeps him from playing 100%, none of the above matters. They are doomed without Berry.


The things listed are a lot to ask of the basketball Gods for a season. I just don't see it happening, but wth do I know? I thought they would get hammered and might not even be eligible for post-season discussion. But I digress.

OldPhiKap
10-25-2017, 09:04 AM
"I don't give a $#!+ about North Carolina"

Troublemaker
10-25-2017, 09:18 AM
I feel like we've seen this script play out a few times now. Maybe we should just fast forward to when Wheat cracks, boils over in frustration that most people don't want to talk UNC hoops, makes uncivil or trolling comments, and eventually leaves the board for the rest of the season. Or do we have to go through the motions until that happens again?

Wheat, you can probably discuss UNC basketball here throughout the season because there will always be a few DBRers who will indulge you; heck, I'll probably chime it at some point if I happen to see them play. But you're going to have to show far more patience than you've shown in recent years. The NCAA turtled, but that doesn't mean fans will forget the cheating.

SkyBrickey
10-25-2017, 09:28 AM
1) I'd be very surprised if this team finishes in the top 3 in the ACC.

2) Pinson coming off the bench? Really? Makes me question everything else the OP says...

3) Roy and the program are now tainted. Much more excited for our matchups against clean programs like UVA, Wake and Ga Tech. #notourrivals

Wheat/"/"/"
10-25-2017, 09:29 AM
This is pretty spot on. UNC will have to have all the planets align in order to make a deep NCAA tournament run this year. They would need...

a.) Win a few games they would be heavy dogs in.
b.) Make a deep run, or even win the ACC to get a better NCAA seed.
c.) Get a favorable draw on selection Sunday
d.) Have a surprise breakout season from Garrison Brooks to even remotely fill the void left inside by the loss of Hicks and Meeks.
e.) Felton would need to adapt quickly to the college game, to give UNC a 1-2 punch at PG so there's not a lot of fall off when Berry goes out. Word on the street is, Felton has thus far been "hard to coach" which is code for being lazy and spoiled. He's probably never been coached hard his whole life given his talent level and pedigree. That could be an interesting development as this season goes on. If Ole Roy can break through to him and get him to buy-in, look out. If he cowers away from the conflict and pouts, it will be a season long distraction as to why he's not getting minutes etc. Stay tuned on that one.
f.) BERRY HAS TO STAY HEALTHY. If Berry were to go out for any significant amount of time, or have a nagging injury that keeps him from playing 100%, none of the above matters. They are doomed without Berry.


The things listed are a lot to ask of the basketball Gods for a season. I just don't see it happening, but wth do I know? I thought they would get hammered and might not even be eligible for post-season discussion. But I digress.

My understanding of Felton is that the game comes too easy for him and he's never had to put out the effort he will need to bring in college.

Roy has called him out already and is on him to mature. Coaches often have to teach effort to freshmen.

All reports say he's a good kid, just hasn't figured out the difference between when to apply more effort, or focus on staying under control. That's a typical freshman PG problem.

I don't think anyone around the Heels program thinks he's "spoiled and lazy" or "hard to coach"...just young.

flyingdutchdevil
10-25-2017, 09:38 AM
Some very, very prominent DBR members used the phrases "overrated" to describe UNC over the last two years. And some of the same are doing the same thing right now.

Sigh...

I hate UNC, want Duke to beat them 4 times a year, and wish they got punished hard by the NCAA. But I have to admit that Ole Roy was been the best coach in the ACC over the last two years. I am giving them credit over the last 2 years.

UrinalCake
10-25-2017, 09:39 AM
I have a coworker who is a big UNC fan who is convinced they'll play small this year, for the first time ever. I think their roster is going to dictate this - Brooks seems the most ready of the three freshman bigs to contribute, but he's more of a PF than a true C. I'm not convinced Maye can handle playing starters minutes especially on defense, but even if he does he's a stretch 4 and not the banger that Roy likes to have as a second big. So I think we'll see lineups with Johnson or Pinson at the 4. Will Roy adapt his style and allow the guards to spread the floor and attack? Will he actually set screens for his shooters? Or will he try to fit his players into the same system he's always played, which won't work at all with this roster?

Will be interesting to see how Duke matches up, having so many bigs and not much perimeter depth. Kind of the exact opposite of what we're used to.

Bostondevil
10-25-2017, 09:40 AM
Echoing the sentiments of many on this board, but the cheating scandal killed the rivalry for me. Sure I want Duke to beat UNC when they play, but I won't be able to watch. As a North Carolina native, I have always been proud that the flagship public university in my home state had such a great academic reputation even if I did hate their basketball team. That pride is gone and it's never coming back. (I'm still proud of North Carolina State University.)

Here's another result of the scandal for this basketball fan. During my growing up years, I could name the starting 5 of UNC almost as easily as the starting 5 of Duke. Knowing the players was required and I paid attention to UNC's players. I can't anymore. I don't know who is on the team and more importantly, I don't care. I really don't. I cannot at this moment name a single player on UNC's team. I doubt I'll be able to at the end of the season either.

left_hook_lacey
10-25-2017, 09:43 AM
My understanding of Felton is that the game comes too easy for him and he's never had to put out the effort he will need to bring in college.

Roy has called him out already and is on him to mature. Coaches often have to teach effort to freshmen.

All reports say he's a good kid, just hasn't figured out the difference between when to apply more effort, or focus on staying under control. That's a typical freshman PG problem.

I don't think anyone around the Heels program thinks he's "spoiled and lazy" or "hard to coach"...just young.

The word "effort" has come up many times among onlookers. There are other "young" players on the team that the term "effort" has not come up about. Therefore, all "young" players do not lack effort. Felton does. Lacking effort is another way to say lazy. It's ok to call someone lazy when comparing to other players. We're not that far gone into the PC world yet. But it's probably coming. In a few years I would have "lazy shamed" Felton with my comments, but we're not quite there, YET.

Can't remember where I read it, but I'm almost certain I heard Roy or one of the assistants quoted as saying "He's never been coached hard" when asked about his lack of effort in practice. To me, that reads as spoiled, and probably for good reason. The kid is an undeniable talent, with a close relationship to his famous, NBA career having, UNC NCAA championship winning uncle. It stands to reason he hasn't had much of a reason to be "hungry". That doesn't mean he's a bad kid, it just means he's never been challenged. That's about to change, and how he reacts to someone all up in his grits is going to make or break his freshman season, IMHO.

Wheat/"/"/"
10-25-2017, 09:51 AM
I feel like we've seen this script play out a few times now. Maybe we should just fast forward to when Wheat cracks, boils over in frustration that most people don't want to talk UNC hoops, makes uncivil or trolling comments, and eventually leaves the board for the rest of the season. Or do we have to go through the motions until that happens again?

Wheat, you can probably discuss UNC basketball here throughout the season because there will always be a few DBRers who will indulge you; heck, I'll probably chime it at some point if I happen to see them play. But you're going to have to show far more patience than you've shown in recent years. The NCAA turtled, but that doesn't mean fans will forget the cheating.

The older I get the less patience I seem to have, that's for sure. This used to be a quality college basketball board, and I'm a basketball fan who appreciates other basketball fans. I'm about the game, not the noise.

I'm not ready to give up on the board, yet. Hopefully people that don't want to talk UNC hoops will just ignore this thread and those that do participate, do so responsibly.

You're right, I may have to move on if the trolls take over like they are trying to do, but I'm gonna make the attempt to stay on the topic of and ignore them...at least for now.

It going to be a good season.

BandAlum83
10-25-2017, 09:52 AM
Echoing the sentiments of many on this board, but the cheating scandal killed the rivalry for me. Sure I want Duke to beat UNC when they play, but I won't be able to watch. As a North Carolina native, I have always been proud that the flagship public university in my home state had such a great academic reputation even if I did hate their basketball team. That pride is gone and it's never coming back. (I'm still proud of North Carolina State University.)

Here's another result of the scandal for this basketball fan. During my growing up years, I could name the starting 5 of UNC almost as easily as the starting 5 of Duke. Knowing the players was required and I paid attention to UNC's players. I can't anymore. I don't know who is on the team and more importantly, I don't care. I really don't. I cannot at this moment name a single player on UNC's team. I doubt I'll be able to at the end of the season either.

Well done!

The opposite of love isn't hate.......

It's indifference.

Wheat/"/"/"
10-25-2017, 09:59 AM
I have a coworker who is a big UNC fan who is convinced they'll play small this year, for the first time ever. I think their roster is going to dictate this - Brooks seems the most ready of the three freshman bigs to contribute, but he's more of a PF than a true C. I'm not convinced Maye can handle playing starters minutes especially on defense, but even if he does he's a stretch 4 and not the banger that Roy likes to have as a second big. So I think we'll see lineups with Johnson or Pinson at the 4. Will Roy adapt his style and allow the guards to spread the floor and attack? Will he actually set screens for his shooters? Or will he try to fit his players into the same system he's always played, which won't work at all with this roster?

Will be interesting to see how Duke matches up, having so many bigs and not much perimeter depth. Kind of the exact opposite of what we're used to.

We will absolutely see that "small" lineup this season against some teams. Roy will adapt and spread the floor with this talent.

But Roy will also play his traditional inside out style as well. It's in his coaching DNA. Having that flexibility according to team matchups is the secret to his success.

PackMan97
10-25-2017, 10:03 AM
This used to be a quality college basketball board, and I'm a basketball fan who appreciates other basketball fans. I'm about the game, not the noise.

I'll happily discuss any college basketball team with you. I couldn't agree more. Let us know when you want to chat about any of the 13 college teams in the ACC.

JasonEvans
10-25-2017, 10:05 AM
Folk, this thread is temporarily being locked while the mod team discusses it. There is some talk of deletion, some talk of only allowing actual basketball discussion of the Carolina team, and some talk to allow it to remain as it has gone so far. We will make a decision and inform all of you soon.

Thanks for your patience.

JasonEvans
10-26-2017, 09:42 AM
After considerable conversation and debate, the moderator team has made a decision about the discussion of UNC Basketball this season.

First of all, we recognize and share the anger at Carolina for perpetrating decades of academic fraud; stonewalling and double-talking their way into a pathetic defense; and then laughing as the NCAA was unwilling to punish them. It is disgusting and has changed many of our attitudes about the Carolina athletic program. Any respect we once had for our fierce rival is largely gone at this point. They deserve heaps of scorn and disgust.

However, the simple reality is that UNC still plays basketball and remain Duke's most fierce rival. Though some of you say you will choose to ignore them, the vast majority of Duke fans (and college basketball fans) will watch the Duke-UNC games with great interest. Most Duke fans still care about how Carolina's season will go because it will likely directly impact how the Duke season goes. This forum is, above all else, a place for Duke fans to talk about the things they care about. The implication that Duke fans do not want to talk about the Carolina basketball team at all just does not ring true.

So, a decision has been made that we will allow the conversation to move forward about the UNC Basketball team.

One of the other moderators wrote the following, which best sums up how we will handle the situation.

This thread -- ONE THREAD -- is for talking about UNC Basketball. Any posts that veer off topic, particularly towards the scandal, will be deleted and may result in an infraction. We appreciate that many of our readers have said that they will boycott anything having to do with UNC Basketball. If you are in that camp, we welcome you to continue your boycott by boycotting this thread. Don't drive by to tell everyone you hate Carolina, don't post about the scandal, don't whine about trolls. Simply DON'T POST IN THIS THREAD. See the other UNC threads to discuss the fallout from the scandal. Talk about Duke Basketball in the many other threads. Simply ignore this thread.

-Jason "I hope this makes sense. Feel free to ask any member of the mod team if you have any questions" Evans

CrazyNotCrazie
10-26-2017, 09:56 AM
After considerable conversation and debate, the moderator team has made a decision about the discussion of UNC Basketball this season.

First of all, we recognize and share the anger at Carolina for perpetrating decades of academic fraud; stonewalling and double-talking their way into a pathetic defense; and then laughing as the NCAA was unwilling to punish them. It is disgusting and has changed many of our attitudes about the Carolina athletic program. Any respect we once had for our fierce rival is largely gone at this point. They deserve heaps of scorn and disgust.

However, the simple reality is that UNC still plays basketball and remain Duke's most fierce rival. Though some of you say you will choose to ignore them, the vast majority of Duke fans (and college basketball fans) will watch the Duke-UNC games with great interest. Most Duke fans still care about how Carolina's season will go because it will likely directly impact how the Duke season goes. This forum is, above all else, a place for Duke fans to talk about the things they care about. The implication that Duke fans do not want to talk about the Carolina basketball team at all just does not ring true.

So, a decision has been made that we will allow the conversation to move forward about the UNC Basketball team.

One of the other moderators wrote the following, which best sums up how we will handle the situation.

This thread -- ONE THREAD -- is for talking about UNC Basketball. Any posts that veer off topic, particularly towards the scandal, will be deleted and may result in an infraction. We appreciate that many of our readers have said that they will boycott anything having to do with UNC Basketball. If you are in that camp, we welcome you to continue your boycott by boycotting this thread. Don't drive by to tell everyone you hate Carolina, don't post about the scandal, don't whine about trolls. Simply DON'T POST IN THIS THREAD. See the other UNC threads to discuss the fallout from the scandal. Talk about Duke Basketball in the many other threads. Simply ignore this thread.

-Jason "I hope this makes sense. Feel free to ask any member of the mod team if you have any questions" Evans

Amen and thank you. I have been a Duke fan for most of my 40+ years and I am a proud alum of the university. Like most others here, I am conditioned to hate the Tar Heels. I am appalled by the NCAA's decision. That being said, Duke will play UNC at least twice this season. It will factor into our final record, our tournament seedings, and so on. They will probably be one of the better teams in the conference. This year's team will be very different from some of their past teams and it will be interesting to discuss this, and hopefully celebrate their growing pains and losses.

To stick one's head in the sand, cover your ears and say "na na na na I can't hear you" regarding UNC is childish and pointless. And similarly, as much as it pains us all to say it, 99% of the students at UNC had nothing to do with this and are smart, good, hard-working kids who just chose to support the wrong shade of blue, many of whom would have loved to have gone to Duke but didn't want to pay the small fortune that is now Duke tuition. Rivalries are great and make sports fun but let's not take it too far.

Thanks to the Mods for stepping above the fray and making an intelligent, rational decision.

CDu
10-26-2017, 09:58 AM
This will be the first year in a long time that UNC doesn't have a team stacked with junior and senior McDonald's All-Americans. Folks who thought they wouldn't be good the last couple of years simply didn't understand the impact of having a veteran-filled roster. Folks who can't see the difference between what they had the last two years and what they'll have this year are letting past scars blur their vision.

This year's UNC team just isn't going to be as good as the last two years' UNC teams were. Still a good team, but not nearly as good.

Now, they do have a VERY good perimeter unit, with Berry (not nearly an NCAA PoY candidate, but definitely a candidate for 1st Team All-ACC), Pinson (an underrated defender, rebounder, passer, and little-things guy), Williams (a solid shooter and defender), and the transfer Johnson (who should largely replace Justin Jackson's contributions on offense, though he's not as good defensively). They also have Felton (a relatively-high-level recruit) and Woods (also a relatively high-level recruit last year). Their perimeter play should be as good or better than last year's perimeter play.

What they won't have is any high-quality players inside, which is largely what made UNC go the last two years. Luke Maye is a capable 5th/6th-man, but will get exposed by better athletes. I salivate at the chance to see him try to guard Marvin Bagley. When left wide open (as he often was last year), the kid can certainly shoot. And he can rebound within his area, but he brings little else to the table. And he's the best they have inside. The UNC frontcourt absolutely dominated the glass the last two years, and it's hard to see this group coming anywhere close to that this year. No Meeks, no Brice Johnson, no Bradley, no Hicks. Those guys were difference-makers on the glass. The new guys seem to be several steps down.

I think it's still going to be a top-25 caliber team. And given that most of the teams in the conference will take a step back this year as well, they should probably still finish in the upper tier of the ACC standings. But I don't think they'll win the ACC regular season or tourney.
And I don't think - barring a really favorable draw and good luck in the tourney - this team threatens for a Final Four or Elite 8.

OldPhiKap
10-26-2017, 10:00 AM
Amen and thank you. I have been a Duke fan for most of my 40+ years and I am a proud alum of the university. Like most others here, I am conditioned to hate the Tar Heels. I am appalled by the NCAA's decision. That being said, Duke will play UNC at least twice this season. It will factor into our final record, our tournament seedings, and so on. They will probably be one of the better teams in the conference. This year's team will be very different from some of their past teams and it will be interesting to discuss this, and hopefully celebrate their growing pains and losses.

To stick one's head in the sand, cover your ears and say "na na na na I can't hear you" regarding UNC is childish and pointless. And similarly, as much as it pains us all to say it, 99% of the students at UNC had nothing to do with this and are smart, good, hard-working kids who just chose to support the wrong shade of blue, many of whom would have loved to have gone to Duke but didn't want to pay the small fortune that is now Duke tuition. Rivalries are great and make sports fun but let's not take it too far.

Thanks to the Mods for stepping above the fray and making an intelligent, rational decision.

Respectfully disagree, although apparently I'm not supposed to say why.

I will say this, though: I cannot recall a season-long thread dedicated to another team, especially one that will be on the front damn page of this board all season. It's one thing to have a Duke-UNC game thread. It's another to have one solely dedicated to the team down the road for the entire season.

I hope all of that is within the parameters of the Mods. Apologies if not. Or at minimum, change it to an all-encompassing "Other ACC Teams" thread.

BandAlum83
10-26-2017, 10:14 AM
Respectfully disagree, although apparently I'm not supposed to say why.

I will say this, though: I cannot recall a season-long thread dedicated to another team, especially one that will be on the front damn page of this board all season. It's one thing to have a Duke-UNC game thread. It's another to have one solely dedicated to the team down the road for the entire season.

I hope all of that is within the parameters of the Mods. Apologies if not. Or at minimum, change it to an all-encompassing "Other ACC Teams" thread.

I kinda have to agree with this.

JasonEvans
10-26-2017, 10:16 AM
Respectfully disagree, although apparently I'm not supposed to say why.

I will say this, though: I cannot recall a season-long thread dedicated to another team, especially one that will be on the front damn page of this board all season. It's one thing to have a Duke-UNC game thread. It's another to have one solely dedicated to the team down the road for the entire season.

I hope all of that is within the parameters of the Mods. Apologies if not. Or at minimum, change it to an all-encompassing "Other ACC Teams" thread.

If someone wanted to start a thread on another ACC team, or any other college hoops team, it would be allowed and encouraged. We quite often have threads dedicated to non-ACC teams coached by former Duke coaches such as Northwestern or Marquette or AZ State. I can recall threads about Virginia in recent years and NC State quite often merits a thread for conversation.

But, even the most stubborn Duke fan would have to say that Carolina is different from all the others. That's why this thread seems to have cropped up at this time. I am betting we will see threads about several other teams as we get closer to the start of the season.

-Jason "appreciate the effort by you and others to play by the rules... I know it is not easy when it comes to UNC" Evans

Troublemaker
10-26-2017, 10:20 AM
Or at minimum, change it to an all-encompassing "Other ACC Teams" thread.

My sense is there are a significant number of DBRers who want to discuss other ACC teams EXCEPT UNC. A dedicated UNC thread is therefore appropriate, imo. Everyone can just ignore this thread who doesn't want to discuss UNC hoops.


The older I get the less patience I seem to have, that's for sure. This used to be a quality college basketball board, and I'm a basketball fan who appreciates other basketball fans. I'm about the game, not the noise.

I'm not ready to give up on the board, yet. Hopefully people that don't want to talk UNC hoops will just ignore this thread and those that do participate, do so responsibly.

You're right, I may have to move on if the trolls take over like they are trying to do, but I'm gonna make the attempt to stay on the topic of and ignore them...at least for now.

It going to be a good season.

My use of the word "patience" was really a euphemism for "thick skin." You can't reasonably expect to post on a rival's board and not take shots about cheating and academic fraud. (And "academic fraud" is something your AD readily admits; he merely contested that the NCAA could punish it, and apparently his viewpoint won.)

However, the mods have made it easier for you with this dedicated thread, and I respect the decision.



I see them a a top 3 ACC team, elite 8 potential.

Let's make a bet. If UNC is seeded 3 or higher in the ACC tournament, you win. If UNC is seeded 4 or lower, I win. What are your preferred stakes? Pies? Beer?


Some very, very prominent DBR members used the phrases "overrated" to describe UNC over the last two years. And some of the same are doing the same thing right now.

Sigh...

I hate UNC, want Duke to beat them 4 times a year, and wish they got punished hard by the NCAA. But I have to admit that Ole Roy was been the best coach in the ACC over the last two years. I am giving them credit over the last 2 years.

Where do you rate them? I have to know that before I can give an opinion on whether they're overrated, underrated, or properly rated.

Troublemaker
10-26-2017, 10:28 AM
If someone wanted to start a thread on another ACC team, or any other college hoops team, it would be allowed and encouraged. We quite often have threads dedicated to non-ACC teams coached by former Duke coaches such as Northwestern or Marquette or AZ State. I can recall threads about Virginia in recent years and NC State quite often merits a thread for conversation.

But, even the most stubborn Duke fan would have to say that Carolina is different from all the others. That's why this thread seems to have cropped up at this time. I am betting we will see threads about several other teams as we get closer to the start of the season.

-Jason "appreciate the effort by you and others to play by the rules... I know it is not easy when it comes to UNC" Evans

pfrduke starts those "This Week in the ACC" threads, and that's traditionally where the ACC discussion has taken place.

My two cents: I think for this season, to avoid conflict, it's best that "This Week in the ACC" threads should be for all other ACC teams, and this thread be for UNC discussion.

wobatus
10-26-2017, 10:30 AM
While he seems old - he is surprisingly young. Only 21. Hansbrough was 24 when he graduated.

Hansbrough was 23 when he graduated (assuming he did on time). He didn't turn 24 until November of 2009.

Marshall Plumlee turned 24 in July after his senior year, and Miles turned 24 in September of his senior year.

Amile Jefferson turned 24 in July. Of course he was a 5th year. Michael Ojo likewise turned 24.

Stillman White turned 25 in July. Mormon mission.

They've got nothing on Bernard James, who was 27 in his senior year at Florida State (when FSU hammered the Heels by 30+ in the regular season, then beat them again to win the ACC Tournament; also went 2-1 versus Duke that year). Bernard dropped out of high school because he didn't like the social hierarchy of school, got his GED, served 6 years in the Air Force, rising to staff sergeant, and served in Iraq and Afghanistan. After a late growth spurt he became an all-star on the Air Force team, then when his time was up he went to Tallahassee CC before signing with the Seminoles.

JasonEvans
10-26-2017, 10:41 AM
...the transfer Johnson (who should largely replace Justin Jackson's contributions on offense, though he's not as good defensively).

While Cam Johnson will replace Jackson's outside shooting, I doubt he will be nearly as adept at creating his own shot. That is something Jackson brought to the table in a big way last season that will be sorely missing on this year's team. I think Carolina is going to really, really struggle in the half court this season. They will have to get out in transition a lot to score and transition often starts with rebounds -- which Carolina may struggle with this season.

Skitzle
10-26-2017, 10:44 AM
What are your preferred stakes? Pies? Beer?
.

Why not steaks?

wobatus
10-26-2017, 10:44 AM
This will be the first year in a long time that UNC doesn't have a team stacked with junior and senior McDonald's All-Americans. Folks who thought they wouldn't be good the last couple of years simply didn't understand the impact of having a veteran-filled roster. Folks who can't see the difference between what they had the last two years and what they'll have this year are letting past scars blur their vision.

This year's UNC team just isn't going to be as good as the last two years' UNC teams were. Still a good team, but not nearly as good.

Now, they do have a VERY good perimeter unit, with Berry (not nearly an NCAA PoY candidate, but definitely a candidate for 1st Team All-ACC), Pinson (an underrated defender, rebounder, passer, and little-things guy), Williams (a solid shooter and defender), and the transfer Johnson (who should largely replace Justin Jackson's contributions on offense, though he's not as good defensively). They also have Felton (a relatively-high-level recruit) and Woods (also a relatively high-level recruit last year). Their perimeter play should be as good or better than last year's perimeter play.

What they won't have is any high-quality players inside, which is largely what made UNC go the last two years. Luke Maye is a capable 5th/6th-man, but will get exposed by better athletes. I salivate at the chance to see him try to guard Marvin Bagley. When left wide open (as he often was last year), the kid can certainly shoot. And he can rebound within his area, but he brings little else to the table. And he's the best they have inside. The UNC frontcourt absolutely dominated the glass the last two years, and it's hard to see this group coming anywhere close to that this year. No Meeks, no Brice Johnson, no Bradley, no Hicks. Those guys were difference-makers on the glass. The new guys seem to be several steps down.

I think it's still going to be a top-25 caliber team. And given that most of the teams in the conference will take a step back this year as well, they should probably still finish in the upper tier of the ACC standings. But I don't think they'll win the ACC regular season or tourney.
And I don't think - barring a really favorable draw and good luck in the tourney - this team threatens for a Final Four or Elite 8.

While I agree Luke may have a hard time with bigs on D, certainly Bagley, the idea he'd be exposed by better athletes is not necessarily borne out. He had 15 boards against Florida State last year. He had 11 points against Kentucky in the regular season, then 17 in the NCAAs. He can shoot, but since it was only 40 attempts last year not sure he'll be a 40% shooter this year from deep. And he was only around 50% from 2, so not like Kennedy Meeks, Isaiah Hicks or Bradley down low. He needs to get some more post-moves and may never be able to get up to 55%.

But as far as rebounding, if he qualified he'd have been in the top 10 in the ACC in rebound %, and that's playing with Meeks (2nd) or Bradley (4th if qualified). He's got a wide body, very strong hands and a nose for boards. In fact he dominated an enormous Meeks in the high school playoffs when he was a baby-fat soph and Meeks a 300+ pound senior Mickey D's AA.

He also has a great outlet pass.

I get what you are saying, especially on D, length and speed and hops can hurt him. He'll need help from Brooks, Huffman or Manley but I doubt defensive instincts will be top-flight with those guys their first year.

CDu
10-26-2017, 10:56 AM
Hansbrough was 23 when he graduated (assuming he did on time). He didn't turn 24 until November of 2009.

Marshall Plumlee turned 24 in July after his senior year, and Miles turned 24 in September of his senior year.

Amile Jefferson turned 24 in July. Of course he was a 5th year. Michael Ojo likewise turned 24.

Stillman White turned 25 in July. Mormon mission.

They've got nothing on Bernard James, who was 27 in his senior year at Florida State (when FSU hammered the Heels by 30+ in the regular season, then beat them again to win the ACC Tournament; also went 2-1 versus Duke that year). Bernard dropped out of high school because he didn't like the social hierarchy of school, got his GED, served 6 years in the Air Force, rising to staff sergeant, and served in Iraq and Afghanistan. After a late growth spurt he became an all-star on the Air Force team, then when his time was up he went to Tallahassee CC before signing with the Seminoles.

Plumlee was a fifth-year senior in 2016 just like Jefferson was in 2017. Miles didn't turn 24 until September AFTER his senior year (he graduated in 2012).

Jefferson, Mason, and Marshall were all 1 year older than the "typical" college senior. Miles and Hansbrough were closer to two years older.

CDu
10-26-2017, 10:57 AM
While I agree Luke may have a hard time with bigs on D, certainly Bagley, the idea he'd be exposed by better athletes is not necessarily borne out.

I was referring to his defense that would get exposed, not his rebounding.

Billy Dat
10-26-2017, 11:06 AM
The implication that Duke fans do not want to talk about the Carolina basketball team at all just does not ring true.

This is certainly true. Any UNC related thread is guaranteed to get major traction on this board. Every time I come back looking for something new, the thread about Berry's broken hand has risen to the top, or this one has, etc. In addition, anything Wheat writes is guaranteed to generate a ton of response. So, maybe we DO need to eliminate UNC discussions so that we can save ourselves from ourselves.

I'll add my two cents...since the Knicks suck and are a complete disgrace I have been more into the Nets and have been noticing Tyler Zeller's great team spirit and sportsmanship from the bench.

As for this year's UNC team, nothing will surprise me. I was one of the posters doubting them the past few years and have been forced to eat my words. The currency of the rivalry is head-to-head match-ups, conference titles, Final Fours and Nattys. What one values colors the perception of where the rivalry stands. While I love when the team wins the head-to-head match-ups, I tend to favor the latter so UNC officially has the conch and we need to wrest it back.

wobatus
10-26-2017, 11:23 AM
While Cam Johnson will replace Jackson's outside shooting, I doubt he will be nearly as adept at creating his own shot. That is something Jackson brought to the table in a big way last season that will be sorely missing on this year's team. I think Carolina is going to really, really struggle in the half court this season. They will have to get out in transition a lot to score and transition often starts with rebounds -- which Carolina may struggle with this season.

Agreed, especially with Berry out. Pinson is a good facilitator but he isn't a scorer himself and he has to have people, uh, to whom to facilitate.

Last year UNC was 2nd in extra scoring chances per game. Mostly through offensive rebounding. West Virginia was 1st, by forcing TOs and being an effective offensive rebounding team. Wilmington was 3rd. Now, Wilmington was decent at forcing TOs. 71st in forcing opponent turnovers per possession. It was 61st in offensive rebounding %. decent. 108th in defensive rebounding %. Where they were great was turnovers per possession. 1st in the country in fewest TOs per possession. Notre Dame was 2nd in that metric. Keatts should be really good at NC State. And Brey does what he does. Lots of ways to skin a cat.

BTW, UVa was 19th in extra scoring chances per game. But they concede rebounds on O. 215th. They are 9th in D rebound %, though.

UNC was 39th in TOs per possession. Not bad for the pace they play. And recall, a lot of their O is getting it in to bigs, who are more turnover prone. Albeit Bradley and Meeks had pretty good hands.

Where they could stand to improve is opponent turnovers per possession. They were 170th last year. Going smaller, if they do, should lead to a pick-up in steal % and forced TOs. And they should lower their own TO%. They will need to balance out some weakness in rebounding % relatively. And actually, the scouting reports on Brooks, Huffman, even Manley, of all things emphasize their rebounding. Weaker on O, Brooks being most polished there, Huffman just dunks everything. And their D will be a major concern.

UNC was also #1 last year in effective possession ratio. That's possessions + offensive rebounds - turnovers / possessions. So how good you are at actually getting scoring chances out of your possessions. They were already a relatively low turnover team but need to tighten up even more. Woods had issues, but got better in conference. Theo is creative but sometimes forces it. They have to as a team shoot better from 3 to make up for the missing easy 2s.

Extra scoring chances is rebounding, ball-handling and pressure D to give you more true scoring chances, even though each team has the same number of possessions.

It's really fascinating how each team strikes their balances, and the ACC is loaded with fantastic coaches who have their own way of doing it. Duke of course has been much better in half court sets. Brey's teams don't turn it over. They don't foul (fewest fouls per possession in Div I. Clemson 6th, Georgia tech 19th). And ND shoots lights out. Pitino's teams were great at getting extra scoring chances per game. Jimmy Tilda is so good. Bennett, sure, can be a snooze fest. Boeheim. And you gotta love what Williams is bringing to Va tech. Manning had Wake back last year. And Keatts looks like he will get State back. he knows what he is doing.

The Heels won't have it easy because a lot of teams have upped their game, teams will gun for them (but they always do), and they lost a lot of talented, experienced guys.

UrinalCake
10-26-2017, 11:27 AM
This will be the first year in a long time that UNC doesn't have a team stacked with junior and senior McDonald's All-Americans. Folks who thought they wouldn't be good the last couple of years simply didn't understand the impact of having a veteran-filled roster.

Definitely agree with this. Last year they had Jackson (top 10 RSCI player, junior), Pinson (top-15, junior), Hicks (top-15, senior), Meeks (McDonalds AA, senior), and Berry (top-25, junior). All were healthy for the whole season except for Pinson who missed the first half. You give any coach in the country five top-25/McD AA level players who are juniors and seniors and they will compete for a title.

With that said, they again have an experienced team this season. Berry and Pinson are back, Kenny Williams is a junior I believe, and their sophomores got playing time last year. I do think that experience plays a huge role and can offset talent, the extent to which many people underestimate.

wobatus
10-26-2017, 11:30 AM
I was referring to his defense that would get exposed, not his rebounding.

Yeah, I do concede that a bit twice (also at the end, where I said length, speed and hops can hurt him on D). He'll need help, but at least he's a strong kid. There's also the fact that he may have a harder time as someone keyed on. I don't want to make too much of a few good games. Metrics suggest he has his strengths, but his usage % and minutes will go up.

sandinmyshoes
10-26-2017, 11:30 AM
Is there any chance that last year's UNC prediction/discussion thread still exists? It would be fun to read Wheat's prediction and our Duke fans' predictions. It would be fun, in fact, to read all the prediction threads from last year. Especially to compare results to strident predictions and accusations of other folk being clueless.

Well, except maybe my own. I'm satisfied to remember the two or three things I might have gotten right, while forgetting all the stuff where I was clueless.

Wheat/"/"/"
10-26-2017, 11:33 AM
When people ask me why I bother to come to a Duke board to post about hoops, I tell them it's because I get a challenging debate from knowledgeable fans, and the DBR board usually has the best moderation at keeping things civil...which I recognize is not easy and very time consuming for those who volunteer to do it.

The decision to keep this thread open was a good one, and I appreciate it.

Well done DBR mods.

sandinmyshoes
10-26-2017, 11:34 AM
Oh, and so far as UNC goes. I will say they are going to have to be a better shooting team than they were last year because it's very difficult to see them as being as good a rebounding team.

Now, if they lead the nation in rebounding and make it to the Elite Eight or Final Four, I'm going to remember this prediction in completely different terms.

Wheat/"/"/"
10-26-2017, 11:35 AM
Is there any chance that last year's UNC prediction/discussion thread still exists? It would be fun to read Wheat's prediction and our Duke fans' predictions. It would be fun, in fact, to read all the prediction threads from last year. Especially to compare results to strident predictions and accusations of other folk being clueless.

Well, except maybe my own. I'm satisfied to remember the two or three things I might have gotten right, while forgetting all the stuff where I was clueless.

I would welcome that, because I was pretty spot on with my thoughts :)

wobatus
10-26-2017, 11:42 AM
Plumlee was a fifth-year senior in 2016 just like Jefferson was in 2017. Miles didn't turn 24 until September AFTER his senior year (he graduated in 2012).

Jefferson, Mason, and Marshall were all 1 year older than the "typical" college senior. Miles and Hansbrough were closer to two years older.

OK, like Miles. I spaced on Marshall red-shirting, but not sure what the difference should be. He played 4 years and turned 24 right after his last season playing (in July), so did Hansbrough (in November). Hansbrough just didn't attend UNC the equivalent of Marshall's red shirt year. Hansbrough was maybe taking a pg year, was held back as a kid, took a year abroad when he was 9, etc. I dunno.

Now Kennedy Meeks, on the other hand, was 45 when he graduated.

richardjackson199
10-26-2017, 11:56 AM
I was hoping this thread would be deleted, and that was my preference. I respect and understand the careful reasoning the mods used to keep it open. I hope to mostly ignore this thread, but I'll enjoy that it's open if UNC has the kind of rough season I'm hoping for. Nobody is more fun to watch lose than Roy. Then he puts Cam Newton to shame in press conferences after he's lost it.

I have no idea what to expect this year from the cheats. I expect they'll have a rough year. But I thought that last year after they lost Brice Johnson and Marcus Paige. The problem was the dramatic improvement of their returning players. Justin Jackson last year was sick, and was a real problem on both ends of the floor. Kennedy Meeks was one of the most effective big men in the country. He was light years ahead of where he was his junior year.

If Roy wins big with this team, I'll have to shamefully admit that he is one of the best college basketball coaches I've ever seen. If he follows 2 national championship games with another great year, after such a drop off in recruiting from the scandal -- I mean what else can you say if that happens? Like Rick Pitino, he'll always be a cheater even if he turns out to be a legendary brilliant coach. But a great year this year puts him in that category.

But that is not going to happen. The cheats will really struggle this year, and it's going to be fun. Dingle Berry has peaked, he is not going to be Justin Jackson. Luke Maye has already peaked and overachieved. He is not going to be Kennedy Meeks. Losing Bradley killed this team. This thread should serve as a nice place to enjoy the cheats brutal year. It only helps that they still think they're good.

GTHC

Wander
10-26-2017, 11:58 AM
Is there any chance that last year's UNC prediction/discussion thread still exists? It would be fun to read Wheat's prediction and our Duke fans' predictions. It would be fun, in fact, to read all the prediction threads from last year. Especially to compare results to strident predictions and accusations of other folk being clueless.

Well, except maybe my own. I'm satisfied to remember the two or three things I might have gotten right, while forgetting all the stuff where I was clueless.

Well, you'd have to go back the past few years, because there are a ton of DBR posters who will claim UNC is vastly overrated no matter what every single year. Some years they'll be right and some years they'll be wrong, but it's clear that has nothing to do with any rational arguments.

They probably ARE genuinely a little overrated this year, because most of the time title winning teams get overrated the following year. I think their backcourt is good enough to still be a Top 25 team if Berry stays healthy. But there's some uncertainty because it's such a different year for them - their frontcourt is almost never this weakness like it should be this year, so it'll be interesting to see what happens to UNC as a result.

wobatus
10-26-2017, 12:02 PM
Oh, and so far as UNC goes. I will say they are going to have to be a better shooting team than they were last year because it's very difficult to see them as being as good a rebounding team.

Now, if they lead the nation in rebounding and make it to the Elite Eight or Final Four, I'm going to remember this prediction in completely different terms.

The only year they were out of the top 25 in offensive rebounding % since 2009 (and I'm sure farther back but that's what I checked) was in 2013 when they were 95th. In 2010 they were 16th but were bad due to poor point guard play (which is why berry is so crucial to this year's team).

2013 wasn't a great year, but they went small and had a half-time lead against #1 Kansas in the NCAAs after a late run in the ACC. They were still 14th in extra scoring chances per game because, compared to last yar, slightly better at holding onto the ball (31st) and much better at causing TOs (88th per possession).

And yes, you are right, shooting better. They shot .376 from 3 that year. .355 last year. When Berry comes back, with Johnson, and hopefully a healthy Williams, and Luke getting more touches, the 3 shooting should slightly improve. Cam being slightly better than JJ was last year. And Luke isn't an awful rebounder. If he qualified he'd have been 6th in O rebounding %. The key will be getting one or more frosh to do it, and if Roy can do anything with them it should be to teach them offensive rebounding.

wobatus
10-26-2017, 12:20 PM
Well, you'd have to go back the past few years, because there are a ton of DBR posters who will claim UNC is vastly overrated no matter what every single year. Some years they'll be right and some years they'll be wrong, but it's clear that has nothing to do with any rational arguments.

They probably ARE genuinely a little overrated this year, because most of the time title winning teams get overrated the following year. I think their backcourt is good enough to still be a Top 25 team if Berry stays healthy. But there's some uncertainty because it's such a different year for them - their frontcourt is almost never this weakness like it should be this year, so it'll be interesting to see what happens to UNC as a result.

The only times UNC has finished higher than its initial rank in the Roy era are 2005 (pres-season #4, final #2), 2006 (unranked, #10) and 2011 (#8, #7). This year may be more like 2013 when UNC went small (#11, unranked). Although that team finished relatively strong, 3rd in the ACC, and was better at year end. Roy's teams usually start ranked too high, based more on long term potential or name recognition, stumble as he sorts through line-ups, then is stronger later in ACC play etc. (they lost their opener last year to Georgia Tech, even started 0-2 in the ACC in 2009, 1-4 and 11-7 in 2014, then won 12 straight in the ACC) And sometimes they end up better than their last rank. In 2015 they were final rank #15 but kenpom 10.

Of course in 2010 it spun out of control. Locker room dissension, Larry Drew II etc. With Berry i didn't see that happening, but now he's out. Should be back not too long, but they need as many wins as possible to get in/get a higher seed. Realistically a Sweet 16 team maybe, but once you are there anything can happen. Even in 2013 and '14 they had second half leads against Kansas and Iowa State with a Sweet 16 on the line.

Optimally, Berry pulls a '77 Phil Ford and leads a team with 3 baby bigs (Yonaker, Wolf and Krafcisin) to an NCAA finals. But Walter Davis and Mike O'Koren aren't walking through that door.

Wheat/"/"/"
10-26-2017, 12:28 PM
Is there any chance that last year's UNC prediction/discussion thread still exists? It would be fun to read Wheat's prediction and our Duke fans' predictions. It would be fun, in fact, to read all the prediction threads from last year. Especially to compare results to strident predictions and accusations of other folk being clueless.

Well, except maybe my own. I'm satisfied to remember the two or three things I might have gotten right, while forgetting all the stuff where I was clueless.

For your entertainment...

http://forums.dukebasketballreport.com/forums/showthread.php?38590-MBB-ACC-Preseason-Talk

I overestimated Hicks a little, he just never found that fire and energy to go with his talent that I thought he would, and I underestimated Kennard's impact abilities. I knew he would be good, but didn't see him challenging for ACC POY.

ChillinDuke
10-26-2017, 12:39 PM
After considerable conversation and debate, the moderator team has made a decision about the discussion of UNC Basketball this season.

First of all, we recognize and share the anger at Carolina for perpetrating decades of academic fraud; stonewalling and double-talking their way into a pathetic defense; and then laughing as the NCAA was unwilling to punish them. It is disgusting and has changed many of our attitudes about the Carolina athletic program. Any respect we once had for our fierce rival is largely gone at this point. They deserve heaps of scorn and disgust.

However, the simple reality is that UNC still plays basketball and remain Duke's most fierce rival. Though some of you say you will choose to ignore them, the vast majority of Duke fans (and college basketball fans) will watch the Duke-UNC games with great interest. Most Duke fans still care about how Carolina's season will go because it will likely directly impact how the Duke season goes. This forum is, above all else, a place for Duke fans to talk about the things they care about. The implication that Duke fans do not want to talk about the Carolina basketball team at all just does not ring true.

So, a decision has been made that we will allow the conversation to move forward about the UNC Basketball team.

One of the other moderators wrote the following, which best sums up how we will handle the situation.

This thread -- ONE THREAD -- is for talking about UNC Basketball. Any posts that veer off topic, particularly towards the scandal, will be deleted and may result in an infraction. We appreciate that many of our readers have said that they will boycott anything having to do with UNC Basketball. If you are in that camp, we welcome you to continue your boycott by boycotting this thread. Don't drive by to tell everyone you hate Carolina, don't post about the scandal, don't whine about trolls. Simply DON'T POST IN THIS THREAD. See the other UNC threads to discuss the fallout from the scandal. Talk about Duke Basketball in the many other threads. Simply ignore this thread.

-Jason "I hope this makes sense. Feel free to ask any member of the mod team if you have any questions" Evans


When people ask me why I bother to come to a Duke board to post about hoops, I tell them it's because I get a challenging debate from knowledgeable fans, and the DBR board usually has the best moderation at keeping things civil...which I recognize is not easy and very time consuming for those who volunteer to do it.

The decision to keep this thread open was a good one, and I appreciate it.

Well done DBR mods.

I, too, would like to thank the DBR Mods for making what I believe is a rational, reasoned, albeit difficult, decision. Your collective ability to stay level-headed and somewhat impartial on this topic is impressive in a world filled with hot takes and inflammatory polarization.

Well done, indeed.

- Chillin

Kedsy
10-26-2017, 12:58 PM
For what it's worth, I used my "system" that ranks players based on a combination of recruiting rank and experience to illustrate the talent difference between last year's UNC team and this year's UNC team (obviously the lower the rating, the better the player):



UNC 2017 UNC 2018
J Jackson 0.0 T Pinson 0.5
I Hicks 0.5 J Berry 1.5
T Pinson 1.0 C Johnson 2.5
J Berry 2.0 L Maye 3.0
T Bradley 2.0 K Williams 3.0
K Meeks 2.5 J Felton 3.0
N Britt 2.5 B Robinson 3.5
L Maye 3.5 S Woods 3.5
K Williams 3.5 G Brooks 4.0
B Robinson 4.0 B Huffman 4.0
S Woods 4.0 S Manley 4.0


Pretty big difference.

Troublemaker
10-26-2017, 01:02 PM
I would welcome that, because I was pretty spot on with my thoughts :)

And yet you ended up shipping Jason a pie, if I recall correctly.

In or out on the following bet, Wheat? You can get back your pie by taking advantage of me underestimating UNC's Top3-ness in the ACC.



I see them a a top 3 ACC team, elite 8 potential.


Let's make a bet. If UNC is seeded 3 or higher in the ACC tournament, you win. If UNC is seeded 4 or lower, I win. What are your preferred stakes? Pies? Beer?

JasonEvans
10-26-2017, 03:54 PM
And yet you ended up shipping Jason a pie, if I recall correctly.

The only thing better than pie... is pie you win a basketball wager. I have tasted 3 of those in the past 6 months. Mmmmmmmmmm.

--Jason "https://memegenerator.net/img/instances/43190093.jpg" Evans

uh_no
10-26-2017, 04:12 PM
The only thing better than pie... is pie you win a basketball wager. I have tasted 3 of those in the past 6 months. Mmmmmmmmmm.

--Jason "https://memegenerator.net/img/instances/43190093.jpg" Evans

even better than a pie you win in a basketball wager....is pie you win in a basketball wager from a UNC fan :D

left_hook_lacey
10-26-2017, 04:21 PM
My sense is there are a significant number of DBRers who want to discuss other ACC teams EXCEPT UNC. A dedicated UNC thread is therefore appropriate, imo. Everyone can just ignore this thread who doesn't want to discuss UNC hoops.



My use of the word "patience" was really a euphemism for "thick skin." You can't reasonably expect to post on a rival's board and not take shots about cheating and academic fraud. (And "academic fraud" is something your AD readily admits; he merely contested that the NCAA could punish it, and apparently his viewpoint won.)

However, the mods have made it easier for you with this dedicated thread, and I respect the decision.



Let's make a bet. If UNC is seeded 3 or higher in the ACC tournament, you win. If UNC is seeded 4 or lower, I win. What are your preferred stakes? Pies? Beer?



Where do you rate them? I have to know that before I can give an opinion on whether they're overrated, underrated, or properly rated.


I'd be willing to take some of that action.

chris13
10-26-2017, 04:26 PM
For what it's worth, I used my "system" that ranks players based on a combination of recruiting rank and experience to illustrate the talent difference between last year's UNC team and this year's UNC team (obviously the lower the rating, the better the player):



UNC 2017 UNC 2018
J Jackson 0.0 T Pinson 0.5
I Hicks 0.5 J Berry 1.5
T Pinson 1.0 C Johnson 2.5
J Berry 2.0 L Maye 3.0
T Bradley 2.0 K Williams 3.0
K Meeks 2.5 J Felton 3.0
N Britt 2.5 B Robinson 3.5
L Maye 3.5 S Woods 3.5
K Williams 3.5 G Brooks 4.0
B Robinson 4.0 B Huffman 4.0
S Woods 4.0 S Manley 4.0


Pretty big difference.

How does your system work? That seems very interesting. I would agree that the Hicks/Meeks and Jackson/Berry/Pinson were the last really good recruiting classes for UNC and having only 2 of those 5, with one injured, is going to make it tough. I personally see UNC as something like their 2013 or 2014 teams....getting to a Sweet 16 will be a big accomplishment.

Wheat/"/"/"
10-26-2017, 05:00 PM
And yet you ended up shipping Jason a pie, if I recall correctly.

In or out on the following bet, Wheat? You can get back your pie by taking advantage of me underestimating UNC's Top3-ness in the ACC.

I did have to ship Jason a pie, again, and I wasn't happy about it. I bet Jason that Hicks would be on an All ACC team. I really thought Hicks would become much more aggressive as a Sr. and become an alpha player, but evidently, it's just not in his DNA...the talent is there, just not that dawg he needed to gain more attention. And I also didn't factor in all the votes that Berry and Jackson were going to get, and it's really hard in a league with that much talent to get 3 players on teams.

At any rate, I do think UNC will be one of the top 3 teams at the end of the ACC regular season. I'd feel better making a bet if I could see a couple of games to judge the freshmen bigs, but I do trust Roy's judgement on recruiting players to fit his system, and I'm confident on the returning talent, so I'm good with you cutting in on some of Jason's action for a pie bet.

To be clear and make it easy, UNC must finish at least tied for one of the top 3 regular season spots in the conference standings for me to win the pie of my choice...if not, you can chose one for yourself. We'll use that online pie company that Jason found last season for delivery and selection. Deal?

kAzE
10-26-2017, 05:06 PM
It's a weird day when I check DBR and 3 of the top 4 threads are discussing UNC . . . .

Kedsy
10-26-2017, 06:04 PM
How does your system work? That seems very interesting. I would agree that the Hicks/Meeks and Jackson/Berry/Pinson were the last really good recruiting classes for UNC and having only 2 of those 5, with one injured, is going to make it tough. I personally see UNC as something like their 2013 or 2014 teams...getting to a Sweet 16 will be a big accomplishment.

I thought most people knew of my system, but since you don't seem to, for each player it starts with a rating based on your RSCI recruiting ranking, as follows:

1 to 10: 1
11 to 20: 2
21 to 35: 3
36 to 150: 4
151 to 250: 5
251+: 6

(I've been thinking about whether the upper bound for "4" should be 200 rather than 150, though the "official" RSCI only goes up to 100 anyway.)

Non-freshmen players take their freshman number and subtract half a point (0.5) for each year they've been in college. So, for example, Grayson Allen was #24 RSCI, meaning he was a 3.0 as a freshman, a 2.5 as a sophomore, a 2.0 as a junior, and a 1.5 as a senior. Obviously not all 1.5s (or any other particular rating) are equal, but some are better and some are worse so it all evens out.

This system has proven fairly accurate when it comes to predicting Duke's rotation under Coach K. I believe it also has relevance in comparing the varying strength of different teams or across seasons.

Furniture
10-26-2017, 06:42 PM
Well done Jason and the mods!

judging by the posts since the decision it was a good one.

I don't think I will post too much but I will definitely read occasionally especially knowing that everyother post is not just a slam of UNC. I just don't have the time otherwise.

CDu
10-26-2017, 07:04 PM
For what it's worth, I used my "system" that ranks players based on a combination of recruiting rank and experience to illustrate the talent difference between last year's UNC team and this year's UNC team (obviously the lower the rating, the better the player):



UNC 2017 UNC 2018
J Jackson 0.0 T Pinson 0.5
I Hicks 0.5 J Berry 1.5
T Pinson 1.0 C Johnson 2.5
J Berry 2.0 L Maye 3.0
T Bradley 2.0 K Williams 3.0
K Meeks 2.5 J Felton 3.0
N Britt 2.5 B Robinson 3.5
L Maye 3.5 S Woods 3.5
K Williams 3.5 G Brooks 4.0
B Robinson 4.0 B Huffman 4.0
S Woods 4.0 S Manley 4.0


Pretty big difference.

Minor quibbles:
1. Missing Platek (RSCI 186), with a 5.0 KRtg
2. Manley (#218) should have a 5.0 KRtg

Even still, the dropoff from last year’s frontcourt (all but one were 2.0 or less) to this year (nobody with less than 2.5, only one below 4.0) is striking.

CDu
10-26-2017, 07:13 PM
This system has proven fairly accurate when it comes to predicting Duke's rotation under Coach K. I believe it also has relevance in comparing the varying strength of different teams or across seasons.

I would caution strongly against using it to compare to other teams. I don’t think it works well in that regard, and is perhaps one of the reasons (if I recall correctly) you underestimated UNC a bit the last two years. It is a very useful tool in guessing the Duke rotation each year. And it may be useful in comparing Duke teams over the past several years. But beyond that, I think its value gets really shaky. It would regularly underestimate teams like UVa, Gonzaga, MSU, and recent UNC teams (teams with less heralded recruits who stay 3-4 years and fit into the coach’s system).

Kedsy
10-26-2017, 10:26 PM
I would caution strongly against using it to compare to other teams. I don’t think it works well in that regard, and is perhaps one of the reasons (if I recall correctly) you underestimated UNC a bit the last two years. It is a very useful tool in guessing the Duke rotation each year. And it may be useful in comparing Duke teams over the past several years. But beyond that, I think its value gets really shaky. It would regularly underestimate teams like UVa, Gonzaga, MSU, and recent UNC teams (teams with less heralded recruits who stay 3-4 years and fit into the coach’s system).

Maybe, but I'm not sure I agree. Comparing UNC last season to Duke last season:



UNC 2017 Duke 2017
J Jackson 0.0 A Jefferson 1.0
I Hicks 0.5 J Tatum 1.0
T Pinson 1.0 H Giles 1.0
J Berry 2.0 M Jones 1.5
T Bradley 2.0 G Allen 2.0
K Meeks 2.5 L Kennard 2.5
N Britt 2.5 C Jeter 1.5
L Maye 3.5 M Bolden 2.0
K Williams 3.5 J DeLaurier 3.0
B Robinson 4.0 A Vrankovic 4.5
S Woods 4.0 J White 5.0


I think the real reason I underestimated UNC is because I didn't think to analyze it using this system across teams. UNC's top 6 had a decent advantage over ours (even before factoring in that Harry Giles didn't play like a "1.0"). Our advantage was in our 7 through 9 guys, but they hardly played. And of course we had injuries, and UNC got really lucky in the NCAA tourney, but the point is the system shows their top 6 was better than ours because their good recruits stayed 3-4 years and ours didn't.

As for teams like Gonzaga and Virginia, here's the chart for last year's Gonzaga team and the 2015 Virginia team that finished 30-4



Gonzaga 2017 Virginia 2015
N Williams-Goss 1.5 M Brogdon 2.5
P Karnowski 2.0 A Gill 2.5
J Williams 2.5 D Atkins 2.5
J Matthews 2.5 M Tobey 3.0
Z Collins 3.0 J Anderson 3.0
J Perkins 3.5 E Nolte 3.0
S Melson 4.0 L Perrantes 3.5
K Tillie 5.0 D Hall 4.0
I Wilkins 4.0
M Shayok 4.0


Admittedly, Virginia's ratings don't look like they should have dominated the ACC, but those ratings aren't completely horrible, either. I suppose it's a tribute to Bennett's system. And as for Gonzaga, while they may not have stacked up with Duke or Kentucky or UNC, my guess is there weren't more than 10 or 15 teams last season with a better-rated top 5, and they had the advantage of playing in a poor conference and nabbing a #1 seed.

So, I think it's possible the system does have utility across teams, though it would take a lot more research than I'm willing to commit to prove it, one way or the other.


Minor quibbles:
1. Missing Platek (RSCI 186), with a 5.0 KRtg


Yeah, I'm thinking it might make more sense to push the "4" to be 36 to 200 (instead of 36 to 150). The fact is in the RSCI era Duke has never had a player between 150 and 200 so it was kind of an arbitrary and uninformed cutoff to begin with. Looking at guys like London Perrantes (#181), he clearly should have been a "4" as a freshman (and of course played much better than that).

Troublemaker
10-26-2017, 11:31 PM
I
To be clear and make it easy, UNC must finish at least tied for one of the top 3 regular season spots in the conference standings for me to win the pie of my choice...if not, you can chose one for yourself. We'll use that online pie company that Jason found last season for delivery and selection. Deal?

Well, the most "clear and easy" way is to just use ACC tournament seeding. Doing it your way, we now have to look at some edge cases below.

If the standings are like this:
1. Duke, 15-3
2. Miami and UVA, 13-5
3. UNC, Louisville, and Notre Dame, 11-7. It's clear I should win the pie, right? UNC is not a top-3 team here.


If UNC ties for the best record or second-best record, you win the pie. If UNC ties for the third-best record, I win the pie. Let's again take a look at an example of the latter scenario.

1. Duke, 15-3
2. Miami, 14-4
3. UVA, UNC, Notre Dame 12-6

Those three teams -- UVA, UNC, and ND -- all simultaneously occupy 3rd, 4th, and 5th place. Mathematically, it would make sense to average those places. So, (3+4+5)/3 = 4th place. The three teams are mathematically 4th-place teams. So I get the pie.


Are we agreed? Most likely, none of these edge cases are going to pop up, anyway.

I'm definitely okay with the pie company Jason chose.

CDu
10-27-2017, 07:56 AM
Well, the most "clear and easy" way is to just use ACC tournament seeding. Doing it your way, we now have to look at some edge cases below.

If the standings are like this:
1. Duke, 15-3
2. Miami and UVA, 13-5
3. UNC, Louisville, and Notre Dame, 11-7. It's clear I should win the pie, right? UNC is not a top-3 team here.

In that scenario, UNC tied for the fourth-best record, not third-best. Three teams had better records in that scenario. So you would win regardless of specifics.


If UNC ties for the best record or second-best record, you win the pie. If UNC ties for the third-best record, I win the pie. Let's again take a look at an example of the latter scenario.

1. Duke, 15-3
2. Miami, 14-4
3. UVA, UNC, Notre Dame 12-6

Those three teams -- UVA, UNC, and ND -- all simultaneously occupy 3rd, 4th, and 5th place. Mathematically, it would make sense to average those places. So, (3+4+5)/3 = 4th place. The three teams are mathematically 4th-place teams. So I get the pie.


Are we agreed? Most likely, none of these edge cases are going to pop up, anyway.

I'm definitely okay with the pie company Jason chose.

I am not sure I agree with the logic in this one.

That said, I do agree that the easiest is to use ACC tourney seeding.

Wheat/"/"/"
10-27-2017, 08:26 AM
Well, the most "clear and easy" way is to just use ACC tournament seeding. Doing it your way, we now have to look at some edge cases below.

If the standings are like this:
1. Duke, 15-3
2. Miami and UVA, 13-5
3. UNC, Louisville, and Notre Dame, 11-7. It's clear I should win the pie, right? UNC is not a top-3 team here.


If UNC ties for the best record or second-best record, you win the pie. If UNC ties for the third-best record, I win the pie. Let's again take a look at an example of the latter scenario.

1. Duke, 15-3
2. Miami, 14-4
3. UVA, UNC, Notre Dame 12-6

Those three teams -- UVA, UNC, and ND -- all simultaneously occupy 3rd, 4th, and 5th place. Mathematically, it would make sense to average those places. So, (3+4+5)/3 = 4th place. The three teams are mathematically 4th-place teams. So I get the pie.


Are we agreed? Most likely, none of these edge cases are going to pop up, anyway.

I'm definitely okay with the pie company Jason chose.

That works for me...top three by ACC tourney seeding...Agreed?

left_hook_lacey
10-27-2017, 08:29 AM
In completely meaningless and often wrong media predictions, UNC is picked to finish second, FWIW.

http://jacksonville.com/sports/florida-state-seminoles/2017-10-26/media-picks-duke-win-acc-allen-all-conference

Troublemaker
10-27-2017, 08:52 AM
I am not sure I agree with the logic in this one.

Yeah, I thought about just going with a simple statement instead of doing some weird math thing. My simple statement would be: I'm not shipping a pie if there are five "top 3" teams.


That works for me...top three by ACC tourney seeding...Agreed?

Agreed, Wheat.

Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15
10-27-2017, 09:00 AM
Yeah, I thought about just going with a simple statement instead of doing some weird math thing. My simple statement would be: I'm not shipping a pie if there are five "top 3" teams.



Agreed, Wheat.

**waves green flag**

FerryFor50
10-27-2017, 09:42 AM
^^ If a mod could delete that previous post, that'd be great. Double posted by accident. :)


For what it's worth, I used my "system" that ranks players based on a combination of recruiting rank and experience to illustrate the talent difference between last year's UNC team and this year's UNC team (obviously the lower the rating, the better the player):



UNC 2017 UNC 2018
J Jackson 0.0 T Pinson 0.5
I Hicks 0.5 J Berry 1.5
T Pinson 1.0 C Johnson 2.5
J Berry 2.0 L Maye 3.0
T Bradley 2.0 K Williams 3.0
K Meeks 2.5 J Felton 3.0
N Britt 2.5 B Robinson 3.5
L Maye 3.5 S Woods 3.5
K Williams 3.5 G Brooks 4.0
B Robinson 4.0 B Huffman 4.0
S Woods 4.0 S Manley 4.0


Pretty big difference.

Only thing I'd like to see added to that system is an average ranking of all players, as well as an average ranking of only contributors/expected contributors. I did that, and added Platek (who CDu said was missing) and adjusted Manley.



UNC 2017 UNC 2018
J Jackson 0.0 T Pinson 0.5
I Hicks 0.5 J Berry 1.5
T Pinson 1.0 C Johnson 2.5
J Berry 2.0 L Maye 3.0
T Bradley 2.0 K Williams 3.0
K Meeks 2.5 J Felton 3.0
N Britt 2.5 B Robinson 3.5
L Maye 3.5 S Woods 3.5
K Williams 3.5 G Brooks 4.0
B Robinson 4.0 B Huffman 4.0
S Woods 4.0 S Manley 5.0
Platek 5.0
2.32 2.96


Also, I went to the UNC roster (and feel dirty for it now) and noticed they have 16 players. How are you building your roster list?

CDu
10-27-2017, 09:56 AM
^^ If a mod could delete that previous post, that'd be great. Double posted by accident. :)



Only thing I'd like to see added to that system is an average ranking of all players, as well as an average ranking of only contributors/expected contributors. I did that, and added Platek (who CDu said was missing) and adjusted Manley.



UNC 2017 UNC 2018
J Jackson 0.0 T Pinson 0.5
I Hicks 0.5 J Berry 1.5
T Pinson 1.0 C Johnson 2.5
J Berry 2.0 L Maye 3.0
T Bradley 2.0 K Williams 3.0
K Meeks 2.5 J Felton 3.0
N Britt 2.5 B Robinson 3.5
L Maye 3.5 S Woods 3.5
K Williams 3.5 G Brooks 4.0
B Robinson 4.0 B Huffman 4.0
S Woods 4.0 S Manley 5.0
Platek 5.0
2.32 2.96


Also, I went to the UNC roster (and feel dirty for it now) and noticed they have 16 players. How are you building your roster list?

I'm assuming that Kedsy discarded walk-ons.

The only other thing I'd not is that the team average of all scholarship players is probably also a bit misleading. I'd say the more accurate numbers would be the average of the starters and a weighted average of the rotation.

For the expected starters, it would look something like:
2017: 1.2
2018: 2.1

Kedsy
10-27-2017, 11:29 AM
I'm assuming that Kedsy discarded walk-ons.

The only other thing I'd not is that the team average of all scholarship players is probably also a bit misleading. I'd say the more accurate numbers would be the average of the starters and a weighted average of the rotation.

For the expected starters, it would look something like:
2017: 1.2
2018: 2.1

Yes, I only listed players who I either did or have a reasonable chance to play at least 8 or 10mpg.

I think the best way to "average" the team score would be weight it based on percentage of minutes played (or predicted). With Duke, I feel somewhat competent to make a close-to-accurate guess but for UNC I didn't feel capable of making a reasonable guess, so I didn't bother.

UrinalCake
10-27-2017, 11:52 AM
I like Kedsy's scoring system. It suggests that Grayson Allen (or Joel Berry) at 1.5 is about as valuable as the #10 or #11-ranked freshman, which would be someone like Kevin Knox. Obviously Grayson is way more important to us right now than Kevin Knox would have been, but on a typical team with multiple veterans it's a reasonable comparison. And honestly, if a guy ranked in the 20's or 30's is still around by his senior year, that suggests he's not a guy that exceeded expectations and left early (or in Grayson's case, had other issues and injuries and also simply chose to stay).

wobatus
10-27-2017, 12:40 PM
Well, the most "clear and easy" way is to just use ACC tournament seeding. Doing it your way, we now have to look at some edge cases below.

If the standings are like this:
1. Duke, 15-3
2. Miami and UVA, 13-5
3. UNC, Louisville, and Notre Dame, 11-7. It's clear I should win the pie, right? UNC is not a top-3 team here.


If UNC ties for the best record or second-best record, you win the pie. If UNC ties for the third-best record, I win the pie. Let's again take a look at an example of the latter scenario.

1. Duke, 15-3
2. Miami, 14-4
3. UVA, UNC, Notre Dame 12-6

Those three teams -- UVA, UNC, and ND -- all simultaneously occupy 3rd, 4th, and 5th place. Mathematically, it would make sense to average those places. So, (3+4+5)/3 = 4th place. The three teams are mathematically 4th-place teams. So I get the pie.


Are we agreed? Most likely, none of these edge cases are going to pop up, anyway.

I'm definitely okay with the pie company Jason chose.

Kenpom has Heels as 3rd best team in ACC, but they may not have 3rd best record in conference based on the schedule. Last year they had FSU, Louisville and Notre Dame (all tied for 2nd at 12-6) all one game each, all at home. And Virginia Tech (10-8) at home once. Syracuse (10-8) at home, once. And Miami, 10-8, once, on the road. They had Virginia and Duke, 11-7, twice. That's all the above .500 in conference teams.

This year all reversed. At Louisville, at Virginia, at Notre Dame (and again at home), @ Va Tech, @ FSU. Duke twice.

Sports Illustrated, which actually runs the simulation against the schedule, has UNC 5th, at 11-7.

T-Rank (aka kenpom lite) also runs through the schedule, and has UNC 4th best at 14th (right behind Louisville at 13th). He has Duke 13-5, UVa 13-5, and Louisville, Miami and UNC at 12-6. That's sort of one of the scenarios discussed on here, about who gets pie then.

T-Rank and Kenpom have UVa top 10. If as many think with the transfers, and Perrantes gone they struggle a tad relatively with a new point, SI (which has UVa below UNC) may be most accurate.

So Wheat, it may be tough sledding for pie. UNC may even be pretty good, but the schedule is awfully tough. Then again, in the pre-season thread last year someone pointed out the Heels had a brutal end of season stretch of Notre Dame (h), Duke (a), NC State (a), Virginia (h), Louisville (h), Pitt (a), Virginia (a), Duke (h), and said they could go 2-6, and he would be shocked if they did better than 3-5. They went 6-2. And that was 6 of 8 games against ranked teams (the unranked ones on road). But NC State ended up being not at all what anyone expected, Pitt was off, etc. (and UNC got 4 games against those 2). Still, managing to hold home serve against 4 ranked squads in ND, Louisville, Duke and Virginia. That's what you have to do.

But this year a lot of those games, if not all at the tail end, will be road games.

Troublemaker
10-27-2017, 12:54 PM
[schedule analysis]

No doubt. I wrote about this from Duke's perspective here:


One thing to keep in mind is that Duke didn't get lucky with this schedule or anything like that. We were owed this schedule. Remember, the ACC announced ahead of time in Feb 2016 the ACC matchups for the 2016-17 and 2017-18 seasons (http://www.dukechronicle.com/article/2016/02/dukes-acc-basketball-opponents-announced-for-2016-17-2017-18); what was revealed recently was merely the exact dates of the matchups for 2017-18.

The 16-17 schedule and the 17-18 schedule are NOT independent of each other; they are a couple, two schedules with a relationship to one another. For example, we knew that several of the "road only" opponents from 16-17 would become "home only" opponents in 17-18 and vice versa; it's only fair that way. Specifically, we played Lville, Syracuse, ND, and UVA on the road only last season, and this upcoming season we will play them at home only.

The fact that last season's schedule was so tough meant that this season's schedule would be easy. (The only way to avoid that would be a MAJOR shakeup in who the top teams in the conference were between seasons). We didn't get lucky. We were owed this schedule after last season.

Duke had a tough schedule last season and a relatively easy one this season. UNC had an easy schedule last season and a relatively tough one this season.

UNCfan
10-27-2017, 12:55 PM
I think UNC will struggle this year with consistency and will finish below 4th in the league. I hope to be proven wrong, but our size down low gave us balance and the consistency we needed to win the ACC regular season and the NCAA championship. Berry and Cam Johnson will have to score a lot to keep the heels in games this season. Last season, UNC lost almost every game Berry played below average. This season will be comparable to the 2012 season where McAdoo played center.

wobatus
10-27-2017, 01:35 PM
No doubt. I wrote about this from Duke's perspective here:



Duke had a tough schedule last season and a relatively easy one this season. UNC had an easy schedule last season and a relatively tough one this season.

I think that's right. Always hard to tell exactly who will be good a given year. UNC and Duke always get each other twice so that can be rough. ACC is always a tough schedule but I think UNC had it easier last year and now Duke this year, and yup, its who are you getting, once, and who at home versus on the road. All relative. It's still a good league. Although with the way the ACC as a whole played the NCAAs, maybe better 2 year ago than last year.

wobatus
10-27-2017, 01:41 PM
I think UNC will struggle this year with consistency and will finish below 4th in the league. I hope to be proven wrong, but our size down low gave us balance and the consistency we needed to win the ACC regular season and the NCAA championship. Berry and Cam Johnson will have to score a lot to keep the heels in games this season. Last season, UNC lost almost every game Berry played below average. This season will be comparable to the 2012 season where McAdoo played center.

2013. McAdoo was a back-up on the 2012 team with Zeller at center.But yeah, 2013. Where they had to go small. Not a great year but finished 3rd and better as season went on. ACC was weaker. No Louisville or Syracuse then. Only 4 NCAA teams that year. Only 2 teams in Kenpom top 30. So you are right, could be a struggle.

JasonEvans
10-28-2017, 02:52 PM
Carolina sorta struggled to win an exhibition game last night against Barton College 91-80. By way of reference, UNC beat Barton 112-60 a year ago. The Heels apparently played a lot of small ball with 4 guards surrounding Luke Maye.

The game also featured the introduction of a new dance craze where one partner takes the other's hips and they sway back and forth. See below for more info.
https://s3media.247sports.com/Uploads/Assets/644/788/6_7788644.jpg

-Jason "Barton was 20-10 last year in DII, Duke's opponent (NWMSt) was 35-1" Evans

UNCfan
10-29-2017, 08:52 AM
UNC struggled without Berry and Roy played tons of combinations. The talent and experience is missing from this years team. With low expectations, it could be a fun season.

DukieInBrasil
10-29-2017, 10:12 AM
I think UNC will struggle this year with consistency and will finish below 4th in the league. I hope to be proven wrong, but our size down low gave us balance and the consistency we needed to win the ACC regular season and the NCAA championship. Berry and Cam Johnson will have to score a lot to keep the heels in games this season. Last season, UNC lost almost every game Berry played below average. This season will be comparable to the 2012 season where McAdoo played center.

due to said lack of inside depth, it's probable that both Berry AND Johnson will have to have above-average games to win, probably even an above-average game from Maye and someone else to win. That's a lot of things to go right every night for them to have a top of the league season. Roy has had a way of finding a way lately, but that has largely come from having loads of experience and depth inside, and he's not gonna have that this year.

Truth&Justise
10-30-2017, 10:05 AM
Carolina sorta struggled to win an exhibition game last night against Barton College 91-80. By way of reference, UNC beat Barton 112-60 a year ago. The Heels apparently played a lot of small ball with 4 guards surrounding Luke Maye.

No mention of Barton College is complete without a link to the final minute of the 2007 D-II championship game (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0WzmQmz9Kdc). What a game -- it never gets old.

PackMan97
10-30-2017, 10:53 AM
UNC struggled without Berry and Roy played tons of combinations. The talent and experience is missing from this years team. With low expectations, it could be a fun season.

They've already won one game too many.

In other news, Carolina's schedule gets a bit easier as NC State's Braxton Beverly's appeal was denied.

JasonEvans
10-30-2017, 11:02 AM
They've already won one game too many.

In other news, Carolina's schedule gets a bit easier as NC State's Braxton Beverly's appeal was denied.

It is ridiculous and absurd that the NCAA did not find a way to make Braxton Beverly eligible. I mean, maybe make him sit out the first month of the season because he took a month of classes at tOSU, but to force him to blow an entire year because he WENT TO CLASS is just insulting. The NCAA is a complete joke. Some schools need to lead the effort to find a new overlord who actually cares about the players and the future of sports.

-Jason "we now return you to your regularly scheduled bashing of the Heels chances for success this coming season... wish I had a piece of that pie bet" Evans

Spanarkel
10-30-2017, 11:13 AM
UNC struggled without Berry and Roy played tons of combinations. The talent and experience is missing from this years team. With low expectations, it could be a fun season.

Berry played 21 minutes when UNC defeated Memphis 60-54 in a scrimmage on 10/20.


http://www.goheels.com/news/2017/10/20/mens-basketball-tar-heels-edge-memphis-in-scrimmage.aspx

Wheat/"/"/"
10-30-2017, 11:49 AM
I happened to attend Barton, then Atlantic Christian College back in the day, so I have a soft spot for this team. They have some real shooters this year and played well against UNC in that exhibition. They will be very good in their league and I'd bet will have a chance to go far in their division. Go Bulldogs!!!

But to say UNC struggled is not accurate. There was never any doubt who would win this game. Roy played all sorts of lineups and was just looking to get the freshmen out in front of a crowd to let them settle in.

It was my first look at the freshmen in a game setting and there were some positives from them. Sterling Manley was farther along with his conditioning than I expected and looked to be able to contribute this season. He's a really big kid, again, think Brendan Haywood. He has good hands, some scoring touch and knows to stay under the rim. When he gets a clean entry pass he can finish. He's long defensively and moves his feet relatively well for his size. Needs to step up his intensity. I was a little disappointed that he didn't work harder to get better rebounding position, use his butt, he was upright and reaching way too much. Roy will be on him for that.

Huffman was much stronger rebounding, and was aggressive, defensively blocking 5 shots against the smaller guys. His hands are OK, but its a definite area for improvement. Made the average catches fine, but struggled with tight ones.

Brooks is a more complete package. Offensively and defensively. Seems to have a good feel for the court. He just lacks the athleticism of some of the leagues better PF's, but makes up for a lot of that by being where he's supposed to be. He'll be a good player, but I think he'll be one that will play off others, not have the offense go through him.

After seeing him in a game setting, I think now it's going to be very hard for Roy to keep Felton out of the starting lineup. He's quick and see's the floor like Pinson. He can finish and his shot looks solid. UNC is a much quicker team with him on the floor. Looked a little lost at times chasing the little Barton guards around, but who wouldn't in that setting?

Re-thinking it, a lineup of Berry, Felton, Pinson, Maye and Brooks might be the best starting 5 from what I've seen so far, and that's pretty strong.

Cam Johnson is not Justin Jackson, but he is good. He will need to be much more aggressive off the dribble to pressure a defense, which is why I'm thinking now we'll see him and Pinson as a two headed SF player, they will sub for each, other and that position will be a strong suit this season.

Williams, and Robinson will sub mainly at the 2g with Felton, and Woods at PG with Berry. (Felton will slide to PG too at times). Manley and Huffman at the Center spot.

Roy will play them all as the situation/matchups demand. He has good experienced depth everywhere but at the center position.

JasonEvans
10-30-2017, 12:21 PM
I happened to attend Barton, then Atlantic Christian College back in the day, so I have a soft spot for this team. They have some real shooters this year and played well against UNC in that exhibition. They will be very good in their league and I'd bet will have a chance to go far in their division. Go Bulldogs!!!

Admittedly, there is not nearly as much attention paid to D2 hoops as D1, so finding preseason rankings is not easy, but I found a few polls (http://campus.mst.edu/athleticarchives/hoops/d2basketball/bbpoll.htm) (look on the right hand side of the page) and here is what I know about the DII teams Duke and UNC have played.

Duke played the defending national champs who return much of their team and are the preseason #1 team in all the polls. Carolina's opponent, Barton, is not ranked in any of the preseason polls. Duke was doubling NWMSt with 12 minutes left in the game and won by 30+. UNC beat Barton by 11 even though Barton outscored the Heels in the 2nd half.

Duke played a much tougher opponent and won with ease. Carolina, which has a far more experienced team full of guys who have zero jitters about playing in their first real college game, unquestionably struggled against an inferior opponent.

Spin things an way you want, but based on these results you should be quite worried about your pie payment.

-Jason "UNC has no other exhibitions, but they begin with a kinda decent N Iowa team (KenPom #129) on 11/10... that is when we will really start to learn about them" Evans

Wheat/"/"/"
10-30-2017, 01:13 PM
Admittedly, there is not nearly as much attention paid to D2 hoops as D1, so finding preseason rankings is not easy, but I found a few polls (http://campus.mst.edu/athleticarchives/hoops/d2basketball/bbpoll.htm) (look on the right hand side of the page) and here is what I know about the DII teams Duke and UNC have played.

Duke played the defending national champs who return much of their team and are the preseason #1 team in all the polls. Carolina's opponent, Barton, is not ranked in any of the preseason polls. Duke was doubling NWMSt with 12 minutes left in the game and won by 30+. UNC beat Barton by 11 even though Barton outscored the Heels in the 2nd half.

Duke played a much tougher opponent and won with ease. Carolina, which has a far more experienced team full of guys who have zero jitters about playing in their first real college game, unquestionably struggled against an inferior opponent.

Spin things an way you want, but based on these results you should be quite worried about your pie payment.

-Jason "UNC has no other exhibitions, but they begin with a kinda decent N Iowa team (KenPom #129) on 11/10... that is when we will really start to learn about them" Evans

Color me not concerned about the pie payment just yet after an exhibition game where Roy played 52 different line ups 🙂

And UNC does have some more exhibition play next Sunday before the N Iowa season opener...

https://scout.com/college/north-carolina/Article/UNC-Basketball-to-Host-Four-Team-Exhibition-Event--109359883

wobatus
10-30-2017, 03:25 PM
Carolina sorta struggled to win an exhibition game last night against Barton College 91-80. By way of reference, UNC beat Barton 112-60 a year ago. The Heels apparently played a lot of small ball with 4 guards surrounding Luke Maye.

The game also featured the introduction of a new dance craze where one partner takes the other's hips and they sway back and forth. See below for more info.
https://s3media.247sports.com/Uploads/Assets/644/788/6_7788644.jpg

-Jason "Barton was 20-10 last year in DII, Duke's opponent (NWMSt) was 35-1" Evans

It was NC State which blew out Barton last year, IIRC. Yeah, i don't make too much of one exhibition, and the baby bigs were pretty good (against a small team of course; will be harder against Bagley/Carter naturally to score down low, to say nothing of Ben Lammers, the Pack Line, etc). Woods did not seem any better at running a team as a point. Still seems like a shooting guard who can't really shoot. But again, he seems gifted and maybe he'll figure it out. Felton looked better. He was getting nice dishes into the bigs which led to some easy buckets for them.

Nice pick-up with Baker. Kid can play. A little surprised, but recent predictions started going Duke's way. I wonder what that means for Wendell Moore, if anything.

UrinalCake
11-05-2017, 09:43 PM
UNC hosted an exhibition "jamboree" today with ECU, UNCW, and UNCG all participating. From what I've been able to gather, they played round robin games against each other, each lasting 13 minutes (I would guess that the three games would equal 39 minutes, or about one regulation game which was all they were allowed to do). Anyways, UNC lost their game against UNCW and apparently had to come from behind to win one of the other games. Also note that in their other full-length exhibitions so far this year, they beat Memphis by 6 (a "secret" scrimmage in which Berry was fully healthy) and also beat D-2 Barton College by 11.

To make matters worse, today's exhibition was a charity fundraiser for disaster relief, yet less than 5,000 tickets were sold according to Andrew Carter. They are the defending champs playing a bunch of local schools for charity and yet their fans would have barely filled half of Cameron.

richardjackson199
11-05-2017, 09:57 PM
Keep it up cheats!

I really hope Troublemaker wins that pie from Wheat.

Wheat/"/"/"
11-05-2017, 10:20 PM
Roy is not known to sacrifice playing depth for exhibition game wins, or even early season OOC games. He's in teaching mode now...

OZ
11-05-2017, 10:31 PM
Roy is not known to sacrifice playing depth for exhibition game wins, or even early season OOC games. He's in teaching mode now...

So, in other words, these are "fake" exhibitions?

richardjackson199
11-05-2017, 10:33 PM
Roy is not known to sacrifice playing depth for exhibition game wins, or even early season OOC games. He's in teaching mode now...

Teaching mode? Must be a paper class. Sounds like the players no-showed for the exhibition.

PackMan97
11-05-2017, 10:33 PM
He's in teaching mode now...

Apparently his team treated it like any other class and didn't show up.

GTHC!

Curse richardjacks199 for being seconds faster on the submit button!

DevilFalcon
11-05-2017, 10:39 PM
Here's to hoping they make it to the elite 8... of the NIT.

devildeac
11-05-2017, 10:45 PM
Roy is not known to sacrifice playing depth for exhibition game wins, or even early season OOC games. He's in teaching mode now...

Hmmm, anagram time...

devildeac
11-05-2017, 10:47 PM
Teaching mode? Must be a paper class. Sounds like the players no-showed for the exhibition.


Apparently his team treated it like any other class and didn't show up.

GTHC!

Curse richardjacks199 for being seconds faster on the submit button!

But, then again, great minds and all that stuff.

;)

DukieInBrasil
11-05-2017, 10:55 PM
Duke plays exhibition game w/o starting PG and 2 reserves, and wins by 63.
UNC plays exhibition game w/o starting PG and loses.
Me likey.

OZ
11-05-2017, 10:59 PM
And to make this all perfectly ncaa legal... all of Roy's classes will be available to the entire student body.

SmartDevil
11-05-2017, 11:31 PM
I hope the cheats have a truly awful season....and that each successive season is progressively worse.

WiJoe
11-05-2017, 11:40 PM
I hope the cheats have a truly awful season...and that each successive season is progressively worse.

Seconded

Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15
11-06-2017, 02:11 AM
Roy is not known to sacrifice playing depth for exhibition game wins, or even early season OOC games. He's in teaching mode now...

Dude, Wheat, get for real. Regardless of the program or coach, they are all in "teaching" mode in preseason (look at some of the lineups K tossed out yesterday) and they all also want to win.

Roy is a good coach, but he isn't special because he tweaks his roster in exhibition games.

OldPhiKap
11-06-2017, 07:03 AM
It is a travesty that they are even allowed to field a team this year.

9F ‘em.

PackMan97
11-06-2017, 07:41 AM
Dude, Wheat, get for real. Regardless of the program or coach, they are all in "teaching" mode in preseaso..

Remember, Roy's poop don't stink...even then NCAA said it smells like roses even when he's been covered with the stink of his own cheating. Even when he has a player admit to never setting foot in a classroom or doing an ounce of work. Even when he's had a former academic advisor write a tell-all book. Roy simply is above it all. If he loses a game, it's because that's part of his strategy for the season.

Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15
11-06-2017, 07:51 AM
Remember, Roy's poop don't stink...even then NCAA said it smells like roses even when he's been covered with the stink of his own cheating. Even when he has a player admit to never setting foot in a classroom or doing an ounce of work. Even when he's had a former academic advisor write a tell-all book. Roy simply is above it all. If he loses a game, it's because that's part of his strategy for the season.

I am excited to see him continue this strategy.

jv001
11-06-2017, 08:12 AM
It is a travesty that they are even allowed to field a team this year.

9F ‘em.

Or any year. GoDuke!

rsvman
11-06-2017, 08:30 AM
I must spread some comments around..............



Lots of good ones in this thread, gentleman, but I got blocked from commenting on any of them. I was particularly happy with PackMan and devildeac, but a lot of you have done well.

UrinalCake
11-06-2017, 08:37 AM
Roy's strategy is to lose now, in order to prepare his players for all the losing they will do later in the season.

left_hook_lacey
11-06-2017, 08:38 AM
Shouldn't this be in the "UNC hoops discussion" thread? Not sure we need yet another UNC thread.

OldPhiKap
11-06-2017, 08:55 AM
Shouldn't this be in the "UNC hoops discussion" thread? Not sure we need yet another UNC thread.

Great idea. I will trade having that stupid thread for combining all UNC posts to that thread.

weezie
11-06-2017, 09:00 AM
We need a nice vegetable juice cleanse around here.

TruBlu
11-06-2017, 09:16 AM
Remember, Roy's poop don't stink...even then NCAA said it smells like roses even when he's been covered with the stink of his own cheating. Even when he has a player admit to never setting foot in a classroom or doing an ounce of work. Even when he's had a former academic advisor write a tell-all book. Roy simply is above it all. If he loses a game, it's because that's part of his strategy for the season.

This is not new with the cheaters fans. Us old folks can remember that just about any loss by Dean Smith was an intentional teaching loss . . . at least it was according to their delusional fans. Same crap, different day from those clowns.

JasonEvans
11-06-2017, 09:24 AM
Shouldn't this be in the "UNC hoops discussion" thread? Not sure we need yet another UNC thread.

Yes, it should have from the start and I have now merged the threads. As such, I would ask folks to ratchet back on the taunting... at least a little bit.

devildeac
11-06-2017, 09:45 AM
Yes, it should have from the start and I have now merged the threads. As such, I would ask folks to ratchet back on the taunting... at least a little bit.

Would this work?

"No, now go away or I shall taunt you a second time!"

And furthermore:

"I don't want to talk to you no more, you empty-headed animal food trough wiper! I fart in your general direction! Your mother was a hamster and your father smelt of elderberries!"

JasonEvans
11-06-2017, 09:51 AM
[/B]

Would this work?

"No, now go away or I shall taunt you a second time!"

And furthermore:

"I don't want to talk to you no more, you empty-headed animal food trough wiper! I fart in your general direction! Your mother was a hamster and your father smelt of elderberries!"

https://i.imgflip.com/8ey7d.jpg

Wheat/"/"/"
11-06-2017, 10:14 AM
We need a nice vegetable juice cleanse around here.

I'd second that...

To be clear, this event was a glorified practice, they played 15 minute "periods", not an exhibition game.

I find it funny that some of you guys are so desperate to feed your irrational hate of the National Champions that you hang your hat on the results of a practice.

I'll hang mine on Roy's team building and preparation of players to contribute for when things matter.

JasonEvans
11-06-2017, 10:17 AM
I'll hang mine on Roy's team building and preparation of players to contribute for when things matter.

http://chargedmagazine.org/wp-content/uploads/2012/11/pie.jpg

left_hook_lacey
11-06-2017, 10:21 AM
https://i.imgflip.com/8ey7d.jpg

It's a crying shame this has to be on a Wed night.

https://www.dpacnc.com/events/detail/john-cleese

DukieInBrasil
11-06-2017, 10:26 AM
I'd second that...

To be clear, this event was a glorified practice, they played 15 minute "periods", not an exhibition game.

I find it funny that some of you guys are so desperate to feed your irrational hate of the National Champions that you hang your hat on the results of a practice.
I'll hang mine on Roy's team building and preparation of players to contribute for when things matter.

of course, it was a glorified practice, Roy was teaching, etc etc. That's all fine and dandy. They still lost to a team with less talent and less skill. From a previous comment:
UNC played w/o their starting PG (and probable captain) and lost.
Duke played w/o their starting PG and 2 reserves, and won, by 63.

Neither of those outcomes mean anything right now, they're just indicators. To me, they indicate that Duke has the potential to be very good, even when playing without some important players, and that UNC will probably struggle really hard if they have to play w/o Berry for any length of time. I'm not really sold on the loss being an indicator that UNC's ceiling is the roof or anything, but it could be a very worrisome sign.
I was certain UNC would suck super hard this year, but then they miraculously got Cam Johnson and their floor got much higher. Still, they don't have much in the way of defense, outside of Pinson, and their interior production is gonna be atrocious. I would love nothing more than for UNC to go winless this year, short of that, to go winless in the ACC, short of that to go winless vs Duke (hopefully 0-3).

sagegrouse
11-06-2017, 10:28 AM
I was certain UNC would suck super hard this year, but then they miraculously got Cam Johnson and their floor got much higher. Still, they don't have much in the way of defense, outside of Pinson, and their interior production is gonna be atrocious. I would love nothing more than for UNC to go winless this year, short of that, to go winless in the ACC, short of that to go winless vs Duke (hopefully 0-3).
But just remember, "their ceiling is the roof."

DukieInBrasil
11-06-2017, 10:31 AM
But just remember, "their ceiling is the roof."

what if the roof is somebody else's floor? Like in an apartment building...

Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15
11-06-2017, 10:32 AM
I'd second that...

To be clear, this event was a glorified practice, they played 15 minute "periods", not an exhibition game.

I find it funny that some of you guys are so desperate to feed your irrational hate of the National Champions that you hang your hat on the results of a practice.

I'll hang mine on Roy's team building and preparation of players to contribute for when things matter.

I find it funny that you think Roy's willingness to tweak lineups in an exhibition is somehow unique and evidence that he's a supreme teacher.

At least we are both laughing I suppose.

OldPhiKap
11-06-2017, 10:36 AM
I find it funny that some of you guys are so desperate to feed your irrational hate of the National Champions that you hang your hat on the results of a practice.

I find it sad that you refuse to acknowledge the massive and systematic cheating that was rampant for two decades, but you can troll here to tell Duke fans how they are supposed to react to the Cheaters.

devildeac
11-06-2017, 10:47 AM
It's a crying shame this has to be on a Wed night.

https://www.dpacnc.com/events/detail/john-cleese

And I'm on call, too. :(

ChillinDuke
11-06-2017, 10:49 AM
I, too, would appreciate the conversation moving back to athletics and away from taunting and rehashing the well known results of UNC's cheating scandal.

For those of us that want to harp on the same well-documented educational and athletic practices at UNC and the results of the NCAA investigation and lack of penalties, well, there's a thread for that. And this isn't it.

For those of us that want to move forward, regardless of the above mentioned issues, and talk about a basketball season, this is the thread for that.

And I'm not even a Mod...

- Chillin

Wheat/"/"/"
11-06-2017, 10:55 AM
of course, it was a glorified practice, Roy was teaching, etc etc. That's all fine and dandy. They still lost to a team with less talent and less skill. From a previous comment:
UNC played w/o their starting PG (and probable captain) and lost.
Duke played w/o their starting PG and 2 reserves, and won, by 63.

Neither of those outcomes mean anything right now, they're just indicators. To me, they indicate that Duke has the potential to be very good, even when playing without some important players, and that UNC will probably struggle really hard if they have to play w/o Berry for any length of time. I'm not really sold on the loss being an indicator that UNC's ceiling is the roof or anything, but it could be a very worrisome sign.
I was certain UNC would suck super hard this year, but then they miraculously got Cam Johnson and their floor got much higher. Still, they don't have much in the way of defense, outside of Pinson, and their interior production is gonna be atrocious. I would love nothing more than for UNC to go winless this year, short of that, to go winless in the ACC, short of that to go winless vs Duke (hopefully 0-3).

I think you are going to be surprised by UNC's interior production...and UNC's overall defense.

wobatus
11-06-2017, 11:00 AM
UNC hosted an exhibition "jamboree" today with ECU, UNCW, and UNCG all participating. From what I've been able to gather, they played round robin games against each other, each lasting 13 minutes (I would guess that the three games would equal 39 minutes, or about one regulation game which was all they were allowed to do). Anyways, UNC lost their game against UNCW and apparently had to come from behind to win one of the other games. Also note that in their other full-length exhibitions so far this year, they beat Memphis by 6 (a "secret" scrimmage in which Berry was fully healthy) and also beat D-2 Barton College by 11.

To make matters worse, today's exhibition was a charity fundraiser for disaster relief, yet less than 5,000 tickets were sold according to Andrew Carter. They are the defending champs playing a bunch of local schools for charity and yet their fans would have barely filled half of Cameron.

Actually, they beat Wilmington handily. Not quite the same Wilmington that led Duke at the half in the 2016 NCAA tournament, or led Virginia with about 13 minutes left in last year's NCAA. Although they do have Devontae Cacok back. Who led the nation in field goal percentage (80%), was 10th in rebound percentage, 9th in player efficiency rating, #1 in o rating, 4th in the CAA in d rating, etc. They also return rotation players Jordan Talley, Jaquel Richmond and Jaylen Fornes (the latter two 3-star recruits from Wesleyan Christian and Word of God).

Their big loss was Coach Keatts, who i think will be a winner at NC state for years to come, who took CJ Bryce with him. They may still challenge in the Colonial, but Charleston looks very tough, and Towson and Elon should be quite good, too (and William & Mary, if they can have some youngsters step up).

UNC actually lost to Greensboro yesterday. They finished tied for first in the Southern last year. They return leading scorer Francis Alonso, who averaged 14.9 ppg last year on .462 from 3. Alonso played for Spain's FIBA U19 team in 2015. They also have Demetrius Troy, who hit .383 from 3, 6.9 ppg, and Malik Massey, .446 from 3 (in a limited roll, 3.5 ppg). And they return sme size, 5th year senior Jordy Kuiper from the Netherlands, 6'9" 250 lb lefty. He also played in Spain some, for the noted Canarias Basketball Academy (Vladimir Brodziansky for TCU, Matz Stockman Louisville, Michal Cekovsky maryland, same program)which he led with 16 ppg 9 rpg. Last year he averaged 5.3/4.4 for Greensboro. And Soph James Dickey, who averaged 6.3/7.2. Dickey and Troy also played for Word of God. They also have a junior project, 6'11" 270 lb Lloyd Burgess, from Durham, who went to Christ School.

Greensboro got blown out by UVa last year, but lost to Wake by 3 only, and by 12 at Syracuse in the NIT. They may be even better this year.

A lot of North Carolina basketball teams should be excellent this year. Elon returns 5 starters off a 4th place CAA team (doubt they have the athleticism to compete with Duke but should be good). Asheville returns one of the best players no one knows, Ahmad Thomas, along with Macio Teague, off a 1st place Big South squad. Wilmington has Cacok, but may have lost too much. We'll see. East Carolina returns some nice talent, especially Barkley, but Lebo is on the hot seat. Greensboro I think is a very well-coached team. Wake have lost too much with Collins. And Mitoglou, but Crawford is back, and Manning has them on the general upswing. Keatts may not have enough talent yet, but they may surprise, and he'll have them playing hard all the time, not just against Duke.

Duke is supremely talented. Definitely in the title conversation. Michigan State of course has a big following, although they weren't great last year. You gotta love Bridges' game. One of my dark horses is Cincinnati. UNC without Berry just isn't all that special, but he'll be back relatively soon. Theo was a Mickey D's AA, but while he's a really good Swiss Army Knife player, he hasn't really played to Mickey D level. Felton didn't quite make the Mickey D's cut. And this year is when the relative recruiting slump may be felt, especially with Bradley gone. They could be good but it may take a while to round into form.

Playing D-I teams, including a couple of conference regular season champs, is completely different than playing a D-II squad, even in exhibitions with running clocks, which was how the charity event was played. Although they also struggled with Barton. NC State blew out Barton by 50 some odd last year. I don't read too much into any of this. I don't need to see these games to know UNC is not as talented as last year, or as experienced. They do have experience and talent, though, including 3 guys who played major minutes in a title run, plus Williams back. The league is very tough, though. They could be pretty good and go 9-9.

But even outside the ACC there are a lot of good teams and story lines to follow. They may be even more fun to follow. And if you can't get past McGrath or Miller's UNC connection, you can root for Asheville or Elon.

left_hook_lacey
11-06-2017, 11:02 AM
And I'm on call, too. :(

Perhaps you could convince your team that you should be at the show because it could be a target-rich environment for a cardio man.

http://splitsider.com/2011/04/so-funny-i-died-how-laughing-will-kill-you/




"People with severe congestive heart failure or COPD don’t have much room to spare in terms of backup cardiac function and lung volumes, so they might not not be able to compensate for the normal physiologic changes of a typical bout of laughter."

left_hook_lacey
11-06-2017, 11:05 AM
I think you are going to be surprised by UNC's interior production...and UNC's overall defense.

Sounds like you will be too if you are expecting UNC to have a good inside presence this year. Everything I'm hearing/reading/seeing says that Brooks has separated himself as the obvious better of the 3 bigs, but that's not saying a lot because the other 2, Huffman and Manley just aren't anywhere near ready, if they ever will be. Your season is already hinging on Berry being 100% healthy for the games that matter, and you are missing something that Roy W. has had trouble being successful without, quality depth and rebounding inside.

There are times this season, UNC will be living "in the upside down world". Just hope the monster doesn't get you.

sagegrouse
11-06-2017, 11:10 AM
I find it funny that you think Roy's willingness to tweak lineups in an exhibition is somehow unique and evidence that he's a supreme teacher.

At least we are both laughing I suppose.


You know, Inside Carolina is always an option for you rather than DBR. Just sayin'....

I, for one, appreciate Wheat's coming here to post. He gives a nudge and an elbow every now and then, but his comments are often to the point

That said, this is gonna be a rough year for the Duke-UNC rivalry, given all that has happened.

Of course, I am an old timer -- defined as one from an era where the Duke-UNC fans usually got along just fine, but the players hated each other, as in Art Heyman and Larry Brown. Now, it seems, it is exactly the reverse. Many of the players have known each other since they were 12 YOs.

Troublemaker
11-06-2017, 11:24 AM
Great idea. I will trade having that stupid thread for combining all UNC posts to that thread.

Right, combining all UNC basketball discussion into this thread was how I envisioned it. It's not a perfect solution by any means but it's the best one we've got that will serve the most people after the NCAA turtled.

Maybe the rivalry will normalize sometime in the years to come but nobody can expect that to happen in Year One PCE (Post Cheaters' Exculpation? Post Collegiate Experience?)



I, too, would appreciate the conversation moving back to athletics and away from taunting and rehashing the well known results of UNC's cheating scandal.

For those of us that want to harp on the same well-documented educational and athletic practices at UNC and the results of the NCAA investigation and lack of penalties, well, there's a thread for that. And this isn't it.

For those of us that want to move forward, regardless of the above mentioned issues, and talk about a basketball season, this is the thread for that.

And I'm not even a Mod...

- Chillin

That's exactly right, imo

Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15
11-06-2017, 11:50 AM
I, for one, appreciate Wheat's coming here to post. He gives a nudge and an elbow every now and then, but his comments are often to the point

That said, this is gonna be a rough year for the Duke-UNC rivalry, given all that has happened.

Of course, I am an old timer -- defined as one from an era where the Duke-UNC fans usually got along just fine, but the players hated each other, as in Art Heyman and Larry Brown. Now, it seems, it is exactly the reverse. Many of the players have known each other since they were 12 YOs.

I have defended Wheat over and over through the years. I thought it a bit uncouth to pop back up immediately after the NCAA ruling, but he has certainly taken his licks.

Truly, my only issue with him in the past weeks is this idea he seems to have that Roy is innovative and revolutionary, standing proudly alone, by experimenting with line ups in exhibition games - consequences be darned!

Perhaps more importantly than having a universal "UNC" thread, we could have a universal Wheat thread. People really get riled up when he blesses us with his presence.

(Mostly joking)

JasonEvans
11-06-2017, 12:03 PM
First of all, I recognized when this thread got merged that some taunting comments would move over to the supposed, "basketball only" thread. There is little question that the comments about Carolina losing a basketball scrimmage to a vastly inferior program belongs in the thread where we are discussing the Carolina season. Obviously, we will not be punishing or handing out infractions for the earlier "taunting" posts that came before the threads were combined.

That said, the mod team asks that, going forward, we please move from the posts that just seek to rehash the cheating scandal in this thread. Thanks for your cooperation.

-Jason "I think Carolina fans rationalizing the fact that they just lost to some second or third tier D1 program is some of the funniest stuff I have read all day! Please continue!" Evans

wobatus
11-06-2017, 12:36 PM
I'd second that...

To be clear, this event was a glorified practice, they played 15 minute "periods", not an exhibition game.

I find it funny that some of you guys are so desperate to feed your irrational hate of the National Champions that you hang your hat on the results of a practice.

I'll hang mine on Roy's team building and preparation of players to contribute for when things matter.

Folks can laugh at that. But it is borne out if you look at the history that Roy Williams' UNC teams often come out of the gate slowly. Which isn't unique. K obviously gets his teams peaking come ACC tourney time.


Anyway, 2004, start ranked 9th, end up 18th. But in Kenpom they end up 10th, despite 8-8 ACC record.

2005, lose to Santa Clara in opening game, without Felton, win title.

2006, start off unranked, lose to Illinois and unranked Southern Cal.

2009, start off 0-2 in ACC, win title.

2010 is the one real exception. That team actually did beat 2 ranked teams in OOC, Michigan State and Ohio state. Lost by 2 at Kentucky. Got blown out by what would end up being a very good Syracuse team (ended up 30-5). Then things spun out of control in the ACC, Drew wasn't really any good (although he got better at UCLA), the Wear twins weren't happy, Ed Davis and Zeller got hurt. Getting to NIT title game was about their true level.

2011 start out ranked 8th on Barnes hype, lose to Vandy and Minnesota, fall out of top 20...and end up ranked 7th, losing in Elite 8 to Kentucky.

2012 start of ranked #1, lose to unranked UNLV, get blown out in embarrassing fashion by Florida State, fall to 8th, but end up ranked 4th, and lose in Elite 8 again to Kansas, without Kendall Marshall, with Henson injured.

2013 lose to Butler and blown out by Indiana, start off 0-2 in ACC, 3-3, 6-5, but end up 12-6 league when Roy goes small, and again, lose a halftime lead to Kansas.

2014 Start off ranked 12th. Lose to Belmont and Alabama Birmingham (but beat Louisville, Michigan State, Kentucky), start 0-3 and 1-4 in ACC, fall out of rankings, but win 12 straight, end up 13-5 league. End ranked 19th after falling out, lose late lead to good Iowa state team.

2015 start off ranked 6th, fall to 24th, end up 15th (but kenpom 10), lose late lead to Wisconsin in Sweet 16. That team lost a ton of close games, blew late lead to Duke, and lost another second half lead to Duke. To Notre Dame in ACC tourney. Couldn't get over the hump in close games.

2016 ranked number 1 to start. Lose to Northern Iowa. Fell to 11th. Ended ranked 3rd, loses to 'Nova in Finals. Much as you hate UNC, how Paige played late in that game (not just the shot, but his ripping a rebound away for a late score) was impressive, and generally he comported himself well as a collegian.

2017, start 6th, fall to 14th, lose to Georgia Tech in ACC opener, lose 2 of 3 to Duke, win national title (in a game perhaps uglier than the previous year's finals was exciting).

So Roy's teams often start out overrated, or ranked more on where they will end up. 2010 was a "disaster". Even off years like 2004, 2013 and 2014, he has UNC in close games in 2nd games in the NCAA playing for a Sweet 16 berth (lost by 3 to Texas in '04, halftime lead against Kansas in 2013, against Iowa State in 2014).

I get it. You can't stand UNC (not you Wheat.). Roy. There are other places to go talk this stuff. I myself am surprised there wasn't punishment. I even thought the 2005 banner might come down, if not 2005 and 2009. I am ashamed of it. Although I don't think the 2016 and '17 teams were involved in it and had some fine men. But they could have been punished as well, and unfortunately, the behavior of the university and others means they will always have that stigma regardless of their own accomplishments as a team.

I get you think there shouldn't be a safe space for UNC fans, especially here. I admit, Inside Carolina costs money and I am cheap.

Strictly as a matter of basketball, William's coached teams do tend to start off worse than they finish up. 14 years, 1 whiff, 9 Sweet 16s, 4 2nd game exits where he got them to at least sniff a Sweet 16.

I think that may be this teams peak. Sweet 16 or a 2nd game exit where they just can't quite finish it. Once you get there anything can happen.

The reason I doubt a 2010 repeat is Berry should be back. Drew was just not a UNC point guard. But even with Berry it is going to be tough. The ACC is always tough, the conference schedule is much harder on the Heels. So maybe not 2010 bad, but how shocking would .500 be? And if it's 8-10, then it's a tourney miss. I know you guys would love it.

Duke is just scary talented. I don't think a lot of Heels fans realize just how good. I think it's beyond Okafor, Winslow, Jones, talent wise. But that team really gelled. Allen and Bolden now seem healthy, and come tourney time they will have experience and K will have them ready, I'm sure. I like Notre Dame's style, and Colson and Farrell are a great 1-2, especially Colson. Maybe they could surprise. Before I may have thought the, but more and more Duke seems too tough to me.

wobatus
11-06-2017, 12:51 PM
I, for one, appreciate Wheat's coming here to post. He gives a nudge and an elbow every now and then, but his comments are often to the point

That said, this is gonna be a rough year for the Duke-UNC rivalry, given all that has happened.

Of course, I am an old timer -- defined as one from an era where the Duke-UNC fans usually got along just fine, but the players hated each other, as in Art Heyman and Larry Brown. Now, it seems, it is exactly the reverse. Many of the players have known each other since they were 12 YOs.

I don't quite go back that far. My earliest memories of Duke were the Tate Armstrong years. And I liked that Spanarkel, Gminski, Banks. I've since read up on the Bubas years, etc.

I did meet Art Heyman once, at his bar on 23rd Street in Manhattan. Tracy J's Watering Hole, back in the early '90s. He was fun to talk to. I don't think that many people who came there knew he was a big deal back in the day.

Wheat/"/"/"
11-06-2017, 01:18 PM
I have defended Wheat over and over through the years. I thought it a bit uncouth to pop back up immediately after the NCAA ruling, but he has certainly taken his licks.

Truly, my only issue with him in the past weeks is this idea he seems to have that Roy is innovative and revolutionary, standing proudly alone, by experimenting with line ups in exhibition games - consequences be darned!

Perhaps more importantly than having a universal "UNC" thread, we could have a universal Wheat thread. People really get riled up when he blesses us with his presence.

(Mostly joking)

I waited a week after the NCAA ruling until the season started to come by and make a basketball post, and I did not come and post after the elite eight last year just so you guys couldn't accuse me of rubbing it in.

I know this is your "safe space" and I try to be sympathetic to that :)

What I think many here are missing is that offensive post play is heavily dependent on entry passes and UNC is among the best at that. Roy drills that all season long and has experienced players to make those passes.

I've seen enough of the freshmen to see that all three have size/strength and some finishing skills at the rim. A defender rotating late on a good entry pass will pay the price, so teams will have to guard them. UNC has guards that can penetrate and dish, and these bigs can finish.

I'm not as concerned offensively as I am defensively, especially rebounding. And that concern is mostly due to youth and inexperience.

This year is an outside in year for UNC, which is not typically what Roy wants, but he will adjust.

Pressure the ball and UNC will drive and dish, or kick out. Pack it in and they will rain three's. Sounds like a Duke game plan from the past few years, I know. Unusual, especially now that Duke will change this season and become more inside out with their bigs talent.

It's a crazy world we live in.

left_hook_lacey
11-06-2017, 01:24 PM
I waited a week after the NCAA ruling until the season started to come by and make a basketball post, and I did not come and post after the elite eight last year just so you guys couldn't accuse me of rubbing it in.

I know this is your "safe space" and I try to be sympathetic to that :)

What I think many here are missing is that post play is heavily dependent on entry passes and UNC is among the best at that. Roy drills that all season long and has experienced players to make those passes.

I've seen enough of the freshmen to see that all three have size/strength and some finishing skills at the rim. A defender rotating late on a good entry pass will pay the price, so teams will have to guard them. UNC has guards that can penetrate and dish, and these bigs can finish.

I'm not as concerned offensively as I am defensively, especially rebounding. And that concern is mostly due to youth and inexperience.

This year is an outside in year for UNC, which is not typically what Roy wants, but he will adjust.

Pressure the ball and UNC will drive and dish, or kick out. Pack it in and they will rain three's. Sounds like a Duke game plan from the past few years, I know. Unusual, especially now that Duke will change this season and become more inside out with their bigs talent.

It's a crazy world we live in.

Isn't that the easy part?

Wheat/"/"/"
11-06-2017, 01:33 PM
Isn't that the easy part?

Actually, no.

A good entry pass starts with timing and that can be difficult to teach from the wing.

DukieInBrasil
11-06-2017, 02:12 PM
Actually, no.

A good entry pass starts with timing and that can be difficult to teach from the wing.

gotta agree with Wheat on this one. Duke has had several better than decent big men recently that very seldom scored in the post b/c we didn't have guards who could deliver a good entry pass. It's on both the receiver and the passer to get it down, but you obviously can't have a good entry pass if you have a guy who can't pass the ball.

Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15
11-06-2017, 02:23 PM
gotta agree with Wheat on this one. Duke has had several better than decent big men recently that very seldom scored in the post b/c we didn't have guards who could deliver a good entry pass. It's on both the receiver and the passer to get it down, but you obviously can't have a good entry pass if you have a guy who can't pass the ball.

Kennedy Meeks is one of the best I have seen, as far as passing big men.

left_hook_lacey
11-06-2017, 03:51 PM
gotta agree with Wheat on this one. Duke has had several better than decent big men recently that very seldom scored in the post b/c we didn't have guards who could deliver a good entry pass. It's on both the receiver and the passer to get it down, but you obviously can't have a good entry pass if you have a guy who can't pass the ball.

I agree that getting a good post feed is important, however, my point was that's the easy part if your post players can't do anything with it once they receive it. A great post player doesn't need a perfect entry pass. UNC doesn't have a great post player this year. They have 3 big bodies that will receive tons of good entry passes and then not be able to convert.

Wheat/"/"/"
11-06-2017, 04:43 PM
I agree that getting a good post feed is important, however, my point was that's the easy part if your post players can't do anything with it once they receive it. A great post player doesn't need a perfect entry pass. UNC doesn't have a great post player this year. They have 3 big bodies that will receive tons of good entry passes and then not be able to convert.

Wishful thinking.....

Kedsy
11-06-2017, 04:53 PM
Wishful thinking...

Well, certainly one of you is engaging in wishful thinking. Possibly both. We won't know who until the real games start.

left_hook_lacey
11-06-2017, 05:43 PM
Wishful thinking....

We shall see. Is it Feb yet?!?!?!?

UrinalCake
11-06-2017, 05:46 PM
Kennedy Meeks is one of the best I have seen, as far as passing big men.

He was great at feeding the post. Also great at feeding himself.




(I hope Kennedy Meeks fat jokes aren't off-limits too. Those will never get old.)

Wheat/"/"/"
11-06-2017, 05:57 PM
Here's a link of UNC's Exhibition highlights (https://scout.com/college/north-carolina/Article/ICTV-UNC-Basketball-Jamboree-Highlights-110035728)

At about the 50 second mark, you'll see Brooks take a baseline entry pass and finish through contact against a ECU big playing strong, solid defense.

Nothing exceptional about it, but it shows that the kid can make a play inside.

Wheat/"/"/"
11-06-2017, 06:03 PM
He was great at feeding the post. Also great at feeding himself.




(I hope Kennedy Meeks fat jokes aren't off-limits too. Those will never get old.)

I never quite understood the inFATuation jokes about a guy that got into great shape out of HS and led his team to a title. One thing UNC has is a great strength and conditioning program. Roy's players are always in shape when they leave UNC.

Now if we want to talk big guys who just keep getting bigger and not better...where's the BJ Anya love?

left_hook_lacey
11-06-2017, 06:09 PM
Here's a link of UNC's Exhibition highlights (https://scout.com/college/north-carolina/Article/ICTV-UNC-Basketball-Jamboree-Highlights-110035728)

At about the 50 second mark, you'll see Brooks take a baseline entry pass and finish through contact against a ECU big playing strong, solid defense.

Nothing exceptional about it, but it shows that the kid can make a play inside.

True. I change my stance based on that layup. Brooks will lead UNC to an undefeated title this year. 😀

Wheat/"/"/"
11-06-2017, 06:26 PM
True. I change my stance based on that layup. Brooks will lead UNC to an undefeated title this year. ��

I would have thought you guys would have learned after all the ridicule you heaped on Nate Britt during his career, only to see him step up against Oregon in the last of the first half of the final 4 to settle UNC down and keep them in the game and on to the title...where he also made some big plays.

Everybody doesn't have to be a star to be a good player.


http://www.ncaa.com/video/basketball-men/2017-04-01/mbk-602-oregon-north-carolina-final-four

left_hook_lacey
11-06-2017, 06:31 PM
I would have thought you guys would have learned after all the ridicule you heaped on Nate Britt during his career, only to see him step up against Oregon in the last of the first half of the final 4 to settle UNC down and keep them in the game and on to the title...where he also made some big plays.

Everybody doesn't have to be a star to be a good player.


http://www.ncaa.com/video/basketball-men/2017-04-01/mbk-602-oregon-north-carolina-final-four

I was actually never on the Nate Britt bash train. I always thought he had potential to be serviceable. I guess that kind of proves my point. Nate Britt came in off the bench and was only expected to be a role player, not anchor the back court.

Brooks, is likely to start unless they decide to go small early in the season. It's all on his shoulder to fill the shoes of Meeks, Hicks, and Bradley. Not gonna happen, I don't care how good the entry passes are.

Wheat/"/"/"
11-06-2017, 06:49 PM
I was actually never on the Nate Britt bash train. I always thought he had potential to be serviceable. I guess that kind of proves my point. Nate Britt came in off the bench and was only expected to be a role player, not anchor the back court.

Brooks, is likely to start unless they decide to go small early in the season. It's all on his shoulder to fill the shoes of Meeks, Hicks, and Bradley. Not gonna happen, I don't care how good the entry passes are.

Nate Britt was more than "serviceable". He ran the team in many pressure situations in lots of big games during his career. He was a good PG.

The goal is to win, and I believe there are enough talented bigs to do just that with the backcourt/wing play UNC will have.

And yea, nobody reasonable expects UNC's freshmen bigs to equal last years production from Meeks, Hicks,Bradley.

Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15
11-06-2017, 07:14 PM
I never quite understood the inFATuation jokes about a guy that got into great shape out of HS and led his team to a title. One thing UNC has is a great strength and conditioning program. Roy's players are always in shape when they leave UNC.

Now if we want to talk big guys who just keep getting bigger and not better...where's the BJ Anya love?

Meeks' reshaping of his body was impressive. I cannot lie.

itshoopsbabee
11-06-2017, 07:34 PM
Nate Britt was more than "serviceable". He ran the team in many pressure situations in lots of big games during his career. He was a good PG.

The goal is to win, and I believe there are enough talented bigs to do just that with the backcourt/wing play UNC will have.

And yea, nobody reasonable expects UNC's freshmen bigs to equal last years production from Meeks, Hicks,Bradley.

Nate Britt was the very definition of "serviceable" - look the word up in the dictionary and his picture is there.

Senior Year Stats:
19 MPG
4.5 PPG on 37% 2-pt Field Goal % and 33% 3-pt Field Goal %
2.4/.9 Assists/TO


SERVICEABLE

LasVegas
11-06-2017, 07:38 PM
Nate Britt was the very definition of "serviceable" - look the word up in the dictionary and his picture is there.

Senior Year Stats:
19 MPG
4.5 PPG on 37% 2-pt Field Goal % and 33% 3-pt Field Goal %
2.4/.9 Assists/TO


SERVICEABLE

The bar is very low for “good” point guards over there....I guess?

Wheat/"/"/"
11-06-2017, 07:45 PM
Nate Britt was the very definition of "serviceable" - look the word up in the dictionary and his picture is there.

Senior Year Stats:
19 MPG
4.5 PPG on 37% 2-pt Field Goal % and 33% 3-pt Field Goal %
2.4/.9 Assists/TO


SERVICEABLE

The stats don't show leadership, clutch plays and ability to run a team.

Call him anything you want, I'll call him a key player on a championship team.

Wheat/"/"/"
11-06-2017, 07:48 PM
The bar is very low for “good” point guards over there...I guess?

Well, Joel Berry is the current final four Most Outstanding Player and arguably the best PG in the country, so I'd say the bar was pretty high for his back up.

duke4ever19
11-06-2017, 08:09 PM
I find it funny that some of you guys are so desperate to feed your irrational hate of the National Champions that you hang your hat on the results of a practice.


I know this is your "safe space" and I try to be sympathetic to that :)



Let me get this straight:

A UNC fan comes to a forum dedicated to a certain topic -- Duke basketball -- and calls the people discussing this topic members of a "safe space," while that very same UNC fan has been granted an actual space on this forum by the moderators, so he can avoid confronting any reference to the sordid doings at the school he cheers for??

Who has the "safe space" again??

The irony is too much.

LasVegas
11-06-2017, 08:24 PM
Well, Joel Berry is the current final four Most Outstanding Player and arguably the best PG in the country, so I'd say the bar was pretty high for his back up.

Why does that even matter? Who cares how good or bad the starter in front of him was? What does that prove? You lost me here...

JStuart
11-06-2017, 08:36 PM
Let me get this straight:

A UNC fan comes to a forum dedicated to a certain topic -- Duke basketball -- and calls the people discussing this topic members of a "safe space," while that very same UNC fan has been granted an actual space on this forum by the moderators, so he can avoid confronting any reference to the sordid doings at the school he cheers for??

Who has the "safe space" again??

The irony is too much.

I fully agree. The light blue boards are notorious for not granting space, much less 'safe' for anyone but kool-aid from the Old Well drinkers.
So long as there is no such reciprocity, I say Wheat should suck it up, since he wants to support a university that played ineligible players for 2 decades or more. Any good Atlantic Christian College alum should be able to do that. He wants to discuss players that should not have even been on the court in years past, with no one calling him on it? This board has standards, even if their 'institution' does not. Sporks to you, duke4ever!

Wheat/"/"/"
11-06-2017, 08:43 PM
Let me get this straight:

A UNC fan comes to a forum dedicated to a certain topic -- Duke basketball -- and calls the people discussing this topic members of a "safe space," while that very same UNC fan has been granted an actual space on this forum by the moderators, so he can avoid confronting any reference to the sordid doings at the school he cheers for??

Who has the "safe space" again??

The irony is too much.

This is hardly my safe place...I get crucified here all the time. But that's OK. It's not my house.

And I would engage my thoughts on the UNC issues if I felt that the thread wouldn't dissolve into something so ugly that the Mods would eventually blame me...so I respect their positions and try to keep my posts centered around basketball.

Someday, I will attempt to discuss it all here, and will as always, give my honest opinion. Maybe in the off season after things settle down.

Back to commenting on UNC post play...Luke Maye is in there as well as the freshmen we've discussed, let's not forget him. He can get his shot off inside quickly and has the fadeaway against long defenders that sometimes give him trouble at the rim. UNC runs a lot of baseline picks for bigs and Luke knows how to set them, that will help create space for Brooks to offset his lack of elite quickness to create his own shot against high caliber defenders.

Good unselfish team play can help cover for lack of elite talent, (one on one skills).

I expect to see a lot of that...

Wheat/"/"/"
11-06-2017, 08:50 PM
Why does that even matter? Who cares how good or bad the starter in front of him was? What does that prove? You lost me here...

Didn't you basically say the bar for PG must be "pretty low"over there"? I was just pointing out that it's been pretty darn high for Britt to get playing time...and I didn't even mention Paige.

OldPhiKap
11-06-2017, 08:53 PM
Let me get this straight:

A UNC fan comes to a forum dedicated to a certain topic -- Duke basketball -- and calls the people discussing this topic members of a "safe space," while that very same UNC fan has been granted an actual space on this forum by the moderators, so he can avoid confronting any reference to the sordid doings at the school he cheers for??

Who has the "safe space" again??

The irony is too much.


I fully agree. The light blue boards are notorious for not granting space, much less 'safe' for anyone but kool-aid from the Old Well drinkers.
So long as there is no such reciprocity, I say Wheat should suck it up, since he wants to support a university that played ineligible players for 2 decades or more. Any good Atlantic Christian College alum should be able to do that. He wants to discuss players that should not have even been on the court in years past, with no one calling him on it? This board has standards, even if their 'institution' does not. Sporks to you, duke4ever!

That’s because this is a total troll thread.


This is hardly my safe place...I get crucified here all the time. But that's OK. It's not my house.

And I would engage my thoughts on the UNC issues if I felt that the thread wouldn't dissolve into something so ugly that the Mods would eventually blame me...so I respect their positions and try to keep my posts centered around basketball.

Someday, I will attempt to discuss it all here, and will as always, give my honest opinion. Maybe in the off season after things settle down

See, that’s the thing though. You consistently take cheap snide shots at Duke and it’s fans, then hide behind the “I’m only here to talk basketball” crap. No, you are not. You are trolling, and you do this season after season.

UNC can go 9F itself.

LasVegas
11-06-2017, 08:54 PM
Didn't you basically say the bar for PG must be "pretty low"over there"? I was just pointing out that it's been pretty darn high for Britt to get playing time...and I didn't even mention Paige.

Berry and Paige are/were awesome point guards but you said Britt was more than serviceable and good. I think the bar is pretty dang low if he is considered a good PG by the fans.

Meaning the fans have a very low bar for him (Britt), basically.

Wheat/"/"/"
11-06-2017, 09:01 PM
That’s because this is a total troll thread.



See, that’s the thing though. You consistently take cheap snide shots at Duke and it’s fans, then hide behind the “I’m only here to talk basketball” crap. No, you are not. You are trolling, and you do this season after season.

UNC can go 9F itself.

Try me...only direct basketball related questions/comments to me and you will only get basketball related comments back.

I have no interest in trolling anyone, just want to talk hoops.

Wheat/"/"/"
11-06-2017, 09:04 PM
Berry and Paige are/were awesome point guards but you said Britt was more than serviceable and good. I think the bar is pretty dang low if he is considered a good PG by the fans.

Meaning the fans have a very low bar for him (Britt), basically.

Didn't you see his play in the final four last year? He was good on college basketball's biggest stage.

What else does it take to admit he was a good PG?

Kedsy
11-06-2017, 09:19 PM
Didn't you see his play in the final four last year? He was good on college basketball's biggest stage.

What else does it take to admit he was a good PG?

I'm not really an eye test guy, but I have to say I've watched Nate Britt for four years and to my eyes he's never been better than "serviceable." But because I'm not an eye test guy, I have just spent the last ten minutes studying Britt's advanced stats, and I'm afraid that under any rational basis, "serviceable" is the best you can say about him. I know you've always had a thing for him, and admittedly he was a rotation player on a championship team, but compared to other high Division I players, he's never been better than mediocre. Sorry, but that's the way I see it, and I'd be very surprised if any impartial observer saw it differently.

Wheat/"/"/"
11-06-2017, 09:41 PM
I'm not really an eye test guy, but I have to say I've watched Nate Britt for four years and to my eyes he's never been better than "serviceable." But because I'm not an eye test guy, I have just spent the last ten minutes studying Britt's advanced stats, and I'm afraid that under any rational basis, "serviceable" is the best you can say about him. I know you've always had a thing for him, and admittedly he was a rotation player on a championship team, but compared to other high Division I players, he's never been better than mediocre. Sorry, but that's the way I see it, and I'd be very surprised if any impartial observer saw it differently.

He could have started on most high level division one teams last season...I see more than stats when I look at players and how they benefit a team. We can agree to disagree if you think he wasn't a good player, but I doubt any coach in the country would agree with you.

An example, most Duke fans seem to think Grayson is the guy to lead Duke this year, but I think, after only seeing a couple of games, that it's going to be Gary Trent, Jr. that will be the player who becomes the backbone of this years Duke team.

The kid has the intangible feel for the game that makes everyone else better. Grayson seems to lack that. He is great at putting pressure on defenders, but less so at getting teammates involved in rhythm.

Other players will feel that part of Trent's intuitive game and will feed off Trent's play, including Allen.

My gut tells me he's Dukes MVP if they are going to go far.

duke4ever19
11-06-2017, 10:21 PM
This is hardly my safe place...I get crucified here all the time. But that's OK. It's not my house.

And I would engage my thoughts on the UNC issues if I felt that the thread wouldn't dissolve into something so ugly that the Mods would eventually blame me...so I respect their positions and try to keep my posts centered around basketball.

Someday, I will attempt to discuss it all here, and will as always, give my honest opinion. Maybe in the off season after things settle down.

Wow. Crucified?

Imagine with me -- just for a second -- my going over to any UNC forum (say, insidecarolina), to discuss something innocuous about Duke basketball (like minutes distribution and shooting percentage) as a simple FYI about an upcoming season. First off, I don't know why I would ever do such a thing unless I was a masochist, but let's say I'm a starry-eyed optimist about human nature and think it would be informative and educational for fans of a bitter rival to hear what I have to say about the one team they most love to hate. Now . . . what would be my reception?

Well, I can tell you from experience. I was torn apart like a wounded zebra that had wandered into the living quarters of a horde of hyenas. I never insulted a single person, but about three posts in they were talking about Corey Maggette and Lance Thomas and calling K all sorts of names I can't repeat here . . . because the standards here are much higher . . . but you already know that.

I've seen many of your posts and interactions with posters here, pre-UNC scandal, and I'd say generally, you have a very easy time.

Fact: There is no comparison between how Duke fans are treated on UNC forums vs. how a UNC fan, such as yourself, is treated on this forum, provided you don't show up trying to talk trash.

For heaven's sake, you make friendly wagers with people here and even send pies to a poster on this board. You are pampered here in comparison with how a Duke fan would be treated on any UNC board. I'm guessing there isn't a UNC board like DBR or else you'd be on it.

I don't even begrudge you posting here. You just need to get a grip on reality. You are posting on a Duke board in the immediate aftermath of one of the biggest cheating scandals in collegiate sports history. You have to be a masochist, otherwise you are contradicting your previous statement that you get "crucified here," because you are banking on the fact that the people here won't treat you that badly. Which is it? Are you a masochist, or are you overstating the extent of your "crucifixion" on this board?

Wheat/"/"/"
11-06-2017, 10:37 PM
Wow. Crucified?

Imagine with me -- just for a second -- my going over to any UNC forum (say, insidecarolina), to discuss something innocuous about Duke basketball (like minutes distribution and shooting percentage) as a simple FYI about an upcoming season. First off, I don't know why I would ever do such a thing unless I was a masochist, but let's say I'm a starry-eyed optimist about human nature and think it would be informative and educational for fans of a bitter rival to hear what I have to say about the one team they most love to hate. Now . . . what would be my reception?

Well, I can tell you from experience. I was torn apart like a wounded zebra that had wandered into the living quarters of a horde of hyenas. I never insulted a single person, but about three posts in they were talking about Corey Maggette and Lance Thomas and calling K all sorts of names I can't repeat here . . . because the standards here are much higher . . . but you already know that.

I've seen many of your posts and interactions with posters here, pre-UNC scandal, and I'd say generally, you have a very easy time.

Fact: There is no comparison between how Duke fans are treated on UNC forums vs. how a UNC fan, such as yourself, is treated on this forum, provided you don't show up trying to talk trash.

For heaven's sake, you make friendly wagers with people here and even send pies to a poster on this board. You are pampered here in comparison with how a Duke fan would be treated on any UNC board. I'm guessing there isn't a UNC board like DBR or else you'd be on it.

I don't even begrudge you posting here. You just need to get a grip on reality. You are posting on a Duke board in the immediate aftermath of one of the biggest cheating scandals in collegiate sports history. You have to be a masochist, otherwise you are contradicting your previous statement that you get "crucified here," because you are banking on the fact that the people here won't treat you that badly. Which is it? Are you a masochist, or are you overstating the extent of your "crucifixion" on this board?

I like it here, always have. Overall, I think it's a great site. We agree on that.

Note: I represent myself. Not IC, or any other UNC fan. I had nothing to do with the UNC issues, yet
a minority of posters are the ones who seem to enjoy "crucifying" me. So be it,they can enjoy the hate at their own peril, that stuff will eat away at you.

I can put up with the crap if that's how it has to be before I can find some stimulating college basketball talk.

ChillinDuke
11-07-2017, 09:04 AM
Back to commenting on UNC post play...Luke Maye is in there as well as the freshmen we've discussed, let's not forget him. He can get his shot off inside quickly and has the fadeaway against long defenders that sometimes give him trouble at the rim. UNC runs a lot of baseline picks for bigs and Luke knows how to set them, that will help create space for Brooks to offset his lack of elite quickness to create his own shot against high caliber defenders.

Good unselfish team play can help cover for lack of elite talent, (one on one skills).

I expect to see a lot of that...

Re: Luke Maye, I'll believe it when I see it, Wheat. He's a fine piece as is Pinson. But I don't think Luke Maye is going to be "quick shotting" and "fadeawaying" UNC to victory this year. Just because a guy can do those sorts of things once or twice doesn't really make them noteworthy.

Once I watch a couple UNC games, I may change my tune. But for now, this UNC team seems like it has one engine: Joel Berry. If that engine stalls, well...

- Chillin

flyingdutchdevil
11-07-2017, 09:28 AM
Re: Luke Maye, I'll believe it when I see it, Wheat. He's a fine piece as is Pinson. But I don't think Luke Maye is going to be "quick shotting" and "fadeawaying" UNC to victory this year. Just because a guy can do those sorts of things once or twice doesn't really make them noteworthy.

Once I watch a couple UNC games, I may change my tune. But for now, this UNC team seems like it has one engine: Joel Berry. If that engine stalls, well...

- Chillin

The one thing I've learned is never underestimate Luke Maye. He is the kind of role player you want: diligent, opportunistic, listens to the coach, etc. He's obviously physically limited, but he tough. I do not think Luke will elevate to star player, but I wouldn't be surprised to see him become one of the best role players in the country.

JasonEvans
11-07-2017, 09:30 AM
Can I just say there are few things as silly as a Duke site discussing the relative quality of a former UNC bench player...

That said, I see Nate Britt as not all that different from someone like Tyler Thornton. A fine role player who did some things well but was never going to be a star or major player for a highly successful team.

-Jason "can we now return to discussing stuff that actually affects this season?" Evans

flyingdutchdevil
11-07-2017, 09:33 AM
Can I just say there are few things as silly as a Duke site discussing the relative quality of a former UNC bench player...

That said, I see Nate Britt as not all that different from someone like Tyler Thornton. A fine role player who did some things well but was never going to be a star or major player for a highly successful team.

-Jason "can we now return to discussing stuff that actually affects this season?" Evans

Luke Maye affected the UNC season last year with that insane game vs Kentucky. So I'd argue he's very relevant in this discussion.

JasonEvans
11-07-2017, 09:36 AM
Luke Maye affected the UNC season last year with that insane game vs Kentucky. So I'd argue he's very relevant in this discussion.

I was only referring to Kenny Britt. I agree that Maye is a key player for the Heels. I further agree with your earlier post about underestimating him at every turn. I too am terribly guilty of that. I shall attempt to avoid that this season. I truly think Maye might lead Carolina in scoring this year.

flyingdutchdevil
11-07-2017, 09:38 AM
I was only referring to Kenny Britt. I agree that Maye is a key player for the Heels. I further agree with your earlier post about underestimating him at every turn. I too am terribly guilty of that. I shall attempt to avoid that this season. I truly think Maye might lead Carolina in scoring this year.

Gotcha. My bad.

I hope the coaching staff shows Bagley all the tape behind Luke's overwhelming season last year and tells him, "you are 10x more talented than Luke. But Luke players harder than anyone else in the country. Match his intensity and SHUT HIM DOWN."

ChillinDuke
11-07-2017, 09:38 AM
Luke Maye affected the UNC season last year with that insane game vs Kentucky. So I'd argue he's very relevant in this discussion.

I think Jason is talking about Nate Britt. Although, I'd still take exception to that because Nate Britt discussions are hilarious.

Anywho, back to Lukey Boy. I agree that he's a solid role player. Best role player in the country seems high - but he's good. And agree, I'd want him on our team. But UNC still needs firepower. It's hard to run through the gauntlet of conference, conference tourney, and NCAAT without at least two and maybe three excellent players. "Excellent" is a vague term. But Berry obviously qualifies, whatever your definition. Who else do they have that could be "excellent"? Not Luke Maye. Maybe Pinson? Felton? Cam? They all feel light, if you get what I'm saying.

- Chillin

ETA - Jason clarified above.

left_hook_lacey
11-07-2017, 09:45 AM
I was only referring to Kenny Britt. I agree that Maye is a key player for the Heels. I further agree with your earlier post about underestimating him at every turn. I too am terribly guilty of that. I shall attempt to avoid that this season. I truly think Maye might lead Carolina in scoring this year.

Kenny Britt is fast though. Good separation. It's a shame he had to go Cleveland where players go to die.

flyingdutchdevil
11-07-2017, 09:47 AM
I think Jason is talking about Nate Britt. Although, I'd still take exception to that because Nate Britt discussions are hilarious.

Anywho, back to Lukey Boy. I agree that he's a solid role player. Best role player in the country seems high - but he's good. And agree, I'd want him on our team. But UNC still needs firepower. It's hard to run through the gauntlet of conference, conference tourney, and NCAAT without at least two and maybe three excellent players. "Excellent" is a vague term. But Berry obviously qualifies, whatever your definition. Who else do they have that could be "excellent"? Not Luke Maye. Maybe Pinson? Felton? Cam? They all feel light, if you get what I'm saying.

- Chillin

ETA - Jason clarified above.

Pinson can't hit the backside of barn. But he's fantastic at nearly everything else that doesn't involve scoring.

You're underestimating Luke. He's not gonna be All-ACC, but he's gonna out-hustle EVERYONE. And he'll only take shots that you'll tell yourself, "yeah. Good shot." I don't think Luke leads the team in scoring, but he'll have games where he is the bonafide star of the team.

UrinalCake
11-07-2017, 10:58 AM
Maye is a solid player, maybe more than solid, but the question for this year is whether he can make the jump from role player to starter. Last year everything went right for UNC and several players made big jumps - Justin Jackson finally realized the potential he had shown in high school, Hicks was able to stay on the court without fouling out, Meeks continued his steady progression over his career, Berry was able to shoot more consistently, and Maye turned into a solid role player. If everything goes right for them again and all their players make big leaps then they will be a very good team. But if guys like Maye cannot make the leap and instead get exposed when having to play bigger minutes, and their freshmen bigs aren't ready, then they could have a rough season. I do think that Maye is underrated as an athlete. I read that he led the team in their mile run, finishing in under five minutes (for comparison, only a handful of pastDuke players have completed a mile in under five minutes. I believe Quinn Cook and Kyle Singler are two of them).

I also read that Pinson has bulked up some, presumably in preparation for playing some at the 4. Makes sense that this would be necessary, and he should have an easier time driving against bigger/slower guys, but the flip side is that you wonder if it will affect his ability to defend on the wing which is his biggest strength.

El_Diablo
11-07-2017, 12:04 PM
Wheat, you will have to excuse Duke fans' perceptions of Nate Britt, which are undoubtedly clouded slightly by the fact that he only won three times against Duke (out of nine games over four years), and in those three wins, he averaged only two points per game. Three wins over four years yields a very, very small sample size, of course, but it helps explain our perceptions I think. Also, Britt's last game against Duke involved him guiding his team to an epic meltdown in the ACC tournament, coughing up a double-digit second-half lead while Berry was on the bench with foul trouble to end up losing to Duke by double digits. I hope this helps!

Wheat/"/"/"
11-07-2017, 02:54 PM
Can I just say there are few things as silly as a Duke site discussing the relative quality of a former UNC bench player...

That said, I see Nate Britt as not all that different from someone like Tyler Thornton. A fine role player who did some things well but was never going to be a star or major player for a highly successful team.

-Jason "can we now return to discussing stuff that actually affects this season?" Evans

I've never claimed Britt was a "star" or "major" player, only that he was a good player.

He was under appreciated by Duke and UNC fans his whole career, but when he subbed in, UNC didn't lose much beyond scoring at PG. He did a great job running the team, was a good defender and excellent ball handler...and he was steady against the best teams out there, he didn't get rattled. Roy had great confidence in him and often played him in crucial late game situations.

The kid could play and was a valuable part of two final four teams, he deserves some respect for his play....that's my opinion.

Matches
11-07-2017, 03:03 PM
Britt was a perfectly serviceable backup PG. He was a lot like Bobby Fraser in that respect. I have a hard time coming up with a Duke analog - maybe Paulus if he hadn't been pushed into a larger role. Maybe Thornton although I think Britt was more talented than TT.

Roy left Britt in the game too long in that ACC-T game, though, at least IMO.

left_hook_lacey
11-07-2017, 03:21 PM
Is there any chance that last year's UNC prediction/discussion thread still exists? It would be fun to read Wheat's prediction and our Duke fans' predictions. It would be fun, in fact, to read all the prediction threads from last year. Especially to compare results to strident predictions and accusations of other folk being clueless.

Well, except maybe my own. I'm satisfied to remember the two or three things I might have gotten right, while forgetting all the stuff where I was clueless.

After further review, I have decided that the Heels wills struggle this year, maybe more than people realized, especially Wheat.

I was looking at UNC's roster from top to bottom when something jumped out at me that I had not noticed before now and I think it's pretty significant. UNC only has two McDonald's AA's on the roster this year. Now I know that having tons of McDonald's AA's doesn't guarantee you post-season success as we've seen with Duke and Kentucky in some seasons recently, but not having them almost certainly guarantees that a team will be unsuccessful both in the regular season and in the tournament, at least as far as UNC is concerned. Let's take a look...

I took the number of burger boys on UNC's roster starting with 1985 through this past season and ran a regression to see if there was a statistical significance. There was.

7774

So, according to that, the prediction table shows that based on the historical performance of UNC teams with variable numbers of McDonald's AA's, this years squad with 2 AA's is predicted to finish with about a 60% winning percentage.

7775

UNC has 31 regular season games this year. 60% winning percentage puts them at about a 19-11 record. If you want to be generous because of the early season cupcakes, maybe 20-10. But I don't think even Northern Iowa is a given this Friday.

2010 was an outlier because UNC boasted 7 McDonald's AA's, but that team had major chemistry issues and ended with 3 key players transferring and with hard feelings. That team only won 54% of its games that year. If I throw that outlier out, it looks even worse at about 57% predicted wins this year.
7776


Wheat said if the pieces fall in their favor that Roy may have another contender this year. No UNC team has ever won the title with less than 5 McDonalds AA's, with the average per championship team at 6.2 AA's.

'82 had 6
'93 had 6
'05 had 5
'09 had 8
'17 had 6

And I'll also add, all of this is assuming Pinson and Berry stay healthy all year.

Note: I'm not sure why Jalek Felton wasn't a McDonald's AA, but he could easily be considered a third. He has that level of talent. If you assume they really have 3 instead of 2, that would bring the predicted games won up to 64%.

I think making the tournament, or possibly winning one game is this years ceiling. Or roof.

So with all that said my bold prediction for UNC 2018....20-11 in the regular season. Win 2 games in ACC tournament. If they make the tournament, lose in the 2nd round.

CDu
11-07-2017, 03:24 PM
Britt was a perfectly serviceable backup PG. He was a lot like Bobby Fraser in that respect. I have a hard time coming up with a Duke analog - maybe Paulus if he hadn't been pushed into a larger role. Maybe Thornton although I think Britt was more talented than TT.

Roy left Britt in the game too long in that ACC-T game, though, at least IMO.

The closest I can think of would be like a lesser version of Sean Dockery. Good defender (Dockery was better of course), not much on offense. Whereas Dockery was at best a serviceable starter, Britt was a serviceable backup.

Doria
11-07-2017, 04:12 PM
Pinson can't hit the backside of barn. But he's fantastic at nearly everything else that doesn't involve scoring.

You're underestimating Luke. He's not gonna be All-ACC, but he's gonna out-hustle EVERYONE. And he'll only take shots that you'll tell yourself, "yeah. Good shot." I don't think Luke leads the team in scoring, but he'll have games where he is the bonafide star of the team.

Absolutely agree with FDD on Luke. Doesn’t necessarily have innate talents others might, but hard work and toughness rightly elevate him as a player. I would not be surprised if he’s the second best player behind Berry this year (am I forgetting someone obvious?). Has a knack for stepping up when they need him.

CDu
11-07-2017, 04:21 PM
Absolutely agree with FDD on Luke. Doesn’t necessarily have innate talents others might, but hard work and toughness rightly elevate him as a player. I would not be surprised if he’s the second best player behind Berry this year (am I forgetting someone obvious?). Has a knack for stepping up when they need him.

Pinson? Cam Johnson? Felton? If Maye is their second-best player, either he makes a HUGE jump this year or UNC will be quite bad. He really should be the 4th or 5th best player on that team.

JasonEvans
11-07-2017, 04:54 PM
I took the number of burger boys on UNC's roster starting with 1985 through this past season and ran a regression to see if there was a statistical significance. There was.

Someone better spork Left_Hook Lacey for me. Apparently I need to spread the love more before next anointing him with praise.

atoomer0881
11-07-2017, 04:55 PM
Someone better spork Left_Hook Lacey for me. Apparently I need to spread the love more before next anointing him with praise.

I just did, because that post of his was awesome.

left_hook_lacey
11-07-2017, 09:33 PM
I just did, because that post of his was awesome.

Thanks. Does anyone know of a good site to look up past rosters for other teams that indicates if the guys on the roster were McDonald's AA's or.not? I'd like to run some more models on Duke and Kentucky's championship teams etc, I'm having a hard time finding the roster info easily. I used a site called Tar Heel times.com for the UNC info. It had all their rosters listed by year with a convenient McDonald's icon beside a players name if they were selected as md's AA's.

Wheat/"/"/"
11-07-2017, 10:46 PM
Britt was a perfectly serviceable backup PG. He was a lot like Bobby Fraser in that respect. I have a hard time coming up with a Duke analog - maybe Paulus if he hadn't been pushed into a larger role. Maybe Thornton although I think Britt was more talented than TT.

Roy left Britt in the game too long in that ACC-T game, though, at least IMO.



At the risk of beating a dead horse when I know I'm talking to a wall...

There was a lot of poor play by UNC in that second half, but it wasn't from Britt.

I just went back and watched that game on YouTube (https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=L5oQ9k4AVNk)...but paid attention only when Britt was in because I didn't remember him as an issue in that loss...fast forward/run plays back....I watched and followed him on and off the ball, closely, and I'd challenge any of you to do the same and try to convince me Britt didn't play well on both sides of the ball. It only takes about 15 minutes.

He did miss a couple of threes after draining one in the first half, but handled the backcourt ball pressure easily with zero TO's and had two assists. He kept the ball moving and got his teammates opportunities, exactly what good PG's should do. (Unfortunately, without them finishing).
His defense was good and active all game.

UNC shot it cold and made some sloppy mental mistakes and lost because Duke made shots and played better than they did in the second second half.
Simple as that.
I didn't see any way to put any blame on Britt's play.

duketaylor
11-08-2017, 12:08 AM
here's the last 20 plus burger boys rosters:


https://www.basketball-reference.com/awards/mcdonalds.html

Won't be too hard to pick out the UK and Duke guys by year.

Kedsy
11-08-2017, 12:55 AM
Britt was a perfectly serviceable backup PG. He was a lot like Bobby Fraser in that respect. I have a hard time coming up with a Duke analog - maybe Paulus if he hadn't been pushed into a larger role. Maybe Thornton although I think Britt was more talented than TT.

Here are some advanced stats from Nate Britt's senior year and Tyler Thornton's senior year:



Stat Sr. Britt Sr. T Thornton
eFG% 42.50% 60.70%
trueSh% 45.60% 64.10%
OR% 1.50% 2.50%
DR% 8.80% 7.90%
Asst% 18.20% 18.00%
TO% 15.70% 22.00%
Stl% 3.00% 3.80%
Usage 14.10% 7.50%
ORtg 105.6 133.1
PER 10.5 11.6
ws/40 0.106 0.126
BPM 5.7 8.7


I suppose "talent" is in the eye of the beholder, but I'm not sure how you could say Mr. Britt was more talented than Mr. Thornton.

Wheat/"/"/"
11-08-2017, 07:45 AM
Here are some advanced stats from Nate Britt's senior year and Tyler Thornton's senior year:



Stat Sr. Britt Sr. T Thornton
eFG% 42.50% 60.70%
trueSh% 45.60% 64.10%
OR% 1.50% 2.50%
DR% 8.80% 7.90%
Asst% 18.20% 18.00%
TO% 15.70% 22.00%
Stl% 3.00% 3.80%
Usage 14.10% 7.50%
ORtg 105.6 133.1
PER 10.5 11.6
ws/40 0.106 0.126
BPM 5.7 8.7


I suppose "talent" is in the eye of the beholder, but I'm not sure how you could say Mr. Britt was more talented than Mr. Thornton.

When stats find a way to show court vision, change of speed off the dribble, the feel a player has for flow of the game, heart, leadership and work effort...then I'll give some real weight to stats.

How anyone can look at the career of those two players and thinks it's even close who was the better player is beyond me.

Raw talent doesn't make a player.

DukieTiger
11-08-2017, 08:15 AM
When stats find a way to show court vision, change of speed off the dribble, the feel a player has for flow of the game, heart, leadership and work effort...then I'll give some real weight to stats.

How anyone can look at the career of those two players and thinks it's even close who was the better player is beyond me.

Raw talent doesn't make a player.

Wheat, this is a self-defeating argument. At some point, intangibles have to affect the game, lest they be irrelevant.

If a player’s feel for the flow of the game doesn’t impact performance, which might be born out in the statistics, what good is it, other than as an empty platitude?

I find it ironic that you refuse to give “real weight” to stats, but are giving undue weight to things that are subjective and hard to measure.

Finally, even if we did give more weight to subjective, touchy-feely measures like “feel for the game”, it seems you are assuming that one guy has ALL the intangibles, while the other has none. Don’t know that this is a fair perspective.

CDu
11-08-2017, 09:14 AM
Wheat, this is a self-defeating argument. At some point, intangibles have to affect the game, lest they be irrelevant.

If a player’s feel for the flow of the game doesn’t impact performance, which might be born out in the statistics, what good is it, other than as an empty platitude?

I find it ironic that you refuse to give “real weight” to stats, but are giving undue weight to things that are subjective and hard to measure.

Finally, even if we did give more weight to subjective, touchy-feely measures like “feel for the game”, it seems you are assuming that one guy has ALL the intangibles, while the other has none. Don’t know that this is a fair perspective.

There were many instances in which Wheat would come back praising Britt’s steady influence, only to be told that Britt had a negative plus/minus for the game. Indicating that whatever intangibles Britt may have provided didn’t actually translate to positive results on the floor.

Britt was a serviceable backup. His greatest contributions were in providing 5-10 nondescript minutes so that Berry or Paige could rest. But the team was quite often a net negative when he was on the floor.

And that’s fine. He was a backup PG. But that is all he was. Yes, he was a backup on two title-game teams. But that was because of the other guys on the team, not him. The slew of upperclassman McD’s All-Americans (Paige, Johnson, Hicks, and Meeks in 2016; and Hicks, Meeks, Berry, Pinson, and Jackson last year) were the reason Britt was able to tag along and get a ring.

DukieInBrasil
11-08-2017, 10:57 AM
When stats find a way to show court vision, change of speed off the dribble, the feel a player has for flow of the game, heart, leadership and work effort...then I'll give some real weight to stats.

How anyone can look at the career of those two players and thinks it's even close who was the better player is beyond me.

Raw talent doesn't make a player.

Raw stats don't tell a complete story, that's true. But efficiency stats and per/40 stats begin to make the story more complete. TT had better efficiency and per/40 stats in almost all categories, except defensive rebounding and turnover %. TT's usage rate was a lot lower, though.
The things you give Britt great credit for also some of the things that Duke fans give TT great credit for; leadership, heart, work effort, and even the occasional clutch performance/shot.
As others mentioned, if the intangibles are so much more valuable than stats, then it seems that they would begin to show up in some of the more nuanced metrics, but they really don't show up to support Britt's case. I watched some UNC games here and there, and especially the Duke-UNC games, and i never saw Britt play at a level that inspired me to support your view of him. He was a serviceable player on some very good teams. There's nothing wrong with that and there is no dishonor in claiming that. It does however diminish any of the other claims you make about other players if you continue to insist that he (or others) was the caliber of player that he wasn't.
Every fan-base gets attached to certain players and wants them to excel beyond their limitations, happens at DBR all the time. Just look at Marty Pocius, Nick Horvath, Andre Dawkins, MP1 and MP3, heck even the aforementioned Tyler Thornton. The list is quite extensive actually. I think most fans at BDR are willing to admit that guys played important roles on Duke teams but were not able to "break thru", at Duke at least, even though we were pulling hard for them. If anyone here were to step in and say Tyler Thornton was an above-average PG in the ACC, they would get roundly ridiculed, and deservedly so.

Wheat/"/"/"
11-08-2017, 11:15 AM
There were many instances in which Wheat would come back praising Britt’s steady influence, only to be told that Britt had a negative plus/minus for the game. Indicating that whatever intangibles Britt may have provided didn’t actually translate to positive results on the floor.

Britt was a serviceable backup. His greatest contributions were in providing 5-10 nondescript minutes so that Berry or Paige could rest. But the team was quite often a net negative when he was on the floor.

And that’s fine. He was a backup PG. But that is all he was. Yes, he was a backup on two title-game teams. But that was because of the other guys on the team, not him. The slew of upperclassman McD’s All-Americans (Paige, Johnson, Hicks, and Meeks in 2016; and Hicks, Meeks, Berry, Pinson, and Jackson last year) were the reason Britt was able to tag along and get a ring.

Look at the plays Britt made late in the second half against Oregon in the final four to get UNC back in the game when they were in real danger of cracking...and then tell yourself he was just "tagging along" on the way to the championship.

I guess I value the contributions of team players way more than many here seem to do.

UrinalCake
11-08-2017, 11:24 AM
Wheat, you will have to excuse Duke fans' perceptions of Nate Britt, which are undoubtedly clouded slightly by the fact that he only won three times against Duke (out of nine games over four years), and in those three wins, he averaged only two points per game. Three wins over four years yields a very, very small sample size, of course, but it helps explain our perceptions I think. Also, Britt's last game against Duke involved him guiding his team to an epic meltdown in the ACC tournament, coughing up a double-digit second-half lead while Berry was on the bench with foul trouble to end up losing to Duke by double digits. I hope this helps!

The other memory I have of Britt is of him almost single-handedly coughing up the lead late against Wisconsin in the 2015 sweet 16. But as you said, most casual Duke fans don't watch UNC except when they play us, so our opinions can be skewed. Similarly, a lot of UNC fans seem to think Andre Dawkins averaged 30 ppg simply because he had a couple of good games against them.

RepoMan
11-08-2017, 12:21 PM
I am so glad that we have an isolated spot for Nate Britt discussions. May Nate never surface anywhere than this thread!

Matches
11-08-2017, 01:08 PM
[/B]
At the risk of beating a dead horse when I know I'm talking to a wall...

There was a lot of poor play by UNC in that second half, but it wasn't from Britt.

I just went back and watched that game on YouTube (https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=L5oQ9k4AVNk)...but paid attention only when Britt was in because I didn't remember him as an issue in that loss...fast forward/run plays back...I watched and followed him on and off the ball, closely, and I'd challenge any of you to do the same and try to convince me Britt didn't play well on both sides of the ball. It only takes about 15 minutes.

He did miss a couple of threes after draining one in the first half, but handled the backcourt ball pressure easily with zero TO's and had two assists. He kept the ball moving and got his teammates opportunities, exactly what good PG's should do. (Unfortunately, without them finishing).
His defense was good and active all game.

UNC shot it cold and made some sloppy mental mistakes and lost because Duke made shots and played better than they did in the second second half.
Simple as that.
I didn't see any way to put any blame on Britt's play.

I didn't. It's not that Britt was in the game. It was that Britt was in the game instead of Berry, who is and was a far superior player. Roy let the game get away from them with one of their best players sitting on the bench, because he was overly cautious about managing foul trouble.

Kedsy
11-08-2017, 01:12 PM
How anyone can look at the career of those two players and thinks it's even close who was the better player is beyond me.

It may be beyond you, but the intangibles you seem to value so much were exactly what Tyler Thornton had in abundance. Toughness, heart, hustle, work effort, leadership, were exactly the sort of words used by the Duke coaching staff and pro-Thornton Duke fans to describe him. He and Britt played almost the exact same number of career minutes, so they were presumably equally valued by their coaches. But Tyler was also a much better defender and much better shooter than Britt, and he hit just as many "clutch" shots. My guess is most neutral observers would say Thornton was better, or at worst that both were equally serviceable.


When stats find a way to show court vision, change of speed off the dribble, the feel a player has for flow of the game, heart, leadership and work effort...then I'll give some real weight to stats.

First of all, I'd like to point out that this discussion began as whether Nate Britt was "serviceable" or whether he was a "good PG."

If we can't use stats, then all we have is the "eye test," and while I admit I only saw Britt play in big games, what my eyes saw was a guy who was adequate at protecting the ball but not very capable of doing anything special with it in the flow of the offense; a guy who could hit a clutch shot but wasn't a particularly good shooter overall; and a guy who tried hard was often physically overmatched on defense.

Obviously your eye test through your light blue lens saw something different. But in any discussion if you disagree on subjective standards, you have to back up your position with something if you want to move the needle in the debate: you back your opinion up with more anecdotal evidence of how he played in the 2017 Final Four (during which, again, my eye test differed from yours -- I thought he was an adequate minute-filler and nothing more). I've backed my opinion up with stats that you refuse to acknowledge have any value.

To digress slightly, using 35 minutes of play in the Final Four to prove whether someone is a good player or not is kind of silly. Putting aside that in this case Britt didn't do anything extraordinary in those 35 minutes, there have been about a zillion examples of guys who had brief spurts of greatness in otherwise mediocre careers. Peak moments are poor measuring sticks to define players.

Whatever. To bring it back to the upcoming season, if Garrison Brooks is the big man equivalent of Nate Britt, I guess we'll both be happy.

wobatus
11-08-2017, 02:27 PM
Look at the plays Britt made late in the second half against Oregon in the final four to get UNC back in the game when they were in real danger of cracking...and then tell yourself he was just "tagging along" on the way to the championship.

I guess I value the contributions of team players way more than many here seem to do.

I think those plays against Oregon were late in the first half. He played better in that few minute stretch then ever. Especially a very nice pass in to Meeks, as well as an open 3.

I'd have to say overall serviceable back-up on a championship team isn't exactly faint praise. Rotation player more than back-up. He averaged 19 minutes plus (16 plus in the NCAAs). Not a star. But that's a good player. It's true advanced stats don't say everything, but he did have issues as a scorer. Sometimes hard when you are not a primary option. His outside shot wasn't consistent, and he had little man's disease down low.

He also made a very pretty corner jumper/floater 1st half against 'Nova. That's just it, you can recall some moments, but not a ton. Still, a guy playing almost 20 minutes per for a title team and back to back finalists? You need guys like that, too.

BTW, lest we forget, he started as a freshmen before December was even done in wins over Louisville (ranked 3rd), Michigan State (1st) and Kentucky (11th). Averaging 10 ppg, 3 rebounds, 3 assists and a steal in those games. He wasn't supposed to start but Hairston and McDonald were out. The Michigan State game was at MSU, and he had 13 points and 6 boards, 3 assist and a steal.

He didn't do it all the time, but it's a luxury to have someone relatively steady to turn to as a 6th or 7th guy.

brlftz
11-08-2017, 02:43 PM
Whatever. To bring it back to the upcoming season, if Garrison Brooks is the big man equivalent of Nate Britt, I guess we'll both be happy.

Oh snap, that closing made my day. I'm laughing so hard, and I sincerely mean that as no disrespect to Wheat. I would spork instead of posting, but I'm apparently forever banned from sporking you again.

chris13
11-08-2017, 02:44 PM
Here are some advanced stats from Nate Britt's senior year and Tyler Thornton's senior year:



Stat Sr. Britt Sr. T Thornton
eFG% 42.50% 60.70%
trueSh% 45.60% 64.10%
OR% 1.50% 2.50%
DR% 8.80% 7.90%
Asst% 18.20% 18.00%
TO% 15.70% 22.00%
Stl% 3.00% 3.80%
Usage 14.10% 7.50%
ORtg 105.6 133.1
PER 10.5 11.6
ws/40 0.106 0.126
BPM 5.7 8.7


I suppose "talent" is in the eye of the beholder, but I'm not sure how you could say Mr. Britt was more talented than Mr. Thornton.

Kedsy,

Are the advance stats from the paywall section of KenPom?

I plan on going to UNC’s opener and can report back if people are interested. I’ll focus on the backup PG since that’s the major interest here :)

weezie
11-08-2017, 03:07 PM
...I guess I value the contributions of team players way more than many here seem to do.

Yawn and sigh together at the same time.

I'm reminded of K and the five fingers = one fist parable. "many" here don't value team player contributions?! Poppycock!

Oh why do I even bother with this ridiculous thread...

Wheat/"/"/"
11-08-2017, 03:20 PM
I think those plays against Oregon were late in the first half. He played better in that few minute stretch then ever. Especially a very nice pass in to Meeks, as well as an open 3.

I'd have to say overall serviceable back-up on a championship team isn't exactly faint praise. Rotation player more than back-up. He averaged 19 minutes plus (16 plus in the NCAAs). Not a star. But that's a good player. It's true advanced stats don't say everything, but he did have issues as a scorer. Sometimes hard when you are not a primary option. His outside shot wasn't consistent, and he had little man's disease down low.

He also made a very pretty corner jumper/floater 1st half against 'Nova. That's just it, you can recall some moments, but not a ton. Still, a guy playing almost 20 minutes per for a title team and back to back finalists? You need guys like that, too.

BTW, lest we forget, he started as a freshmen before December was even done in wins over Louisville (ranked 3rd), Michigan State (1st) and Kentucky (11th). Averaging 10 ppg, 3 rebounds, 3 assists and a steal in those games. He wasn't supposed to start but Hairston and McDonald were out. The Michigan State game was at MSU, and he had 13 points and 6 boards, 3 assist and a steal.

He didn't do it all the time, but it's a luxury to have someone relatively steady to turn to as a 6th or 7th guy.

Yes, I meant first half...thanks for catching it.

The best arguement I guess I can make for the kid is that his hall of fame coach consistently turned to him in big games during his four year career.

He must have thought he was pretty good, because together they won a lot of games.

Kedsy
11-08-2017, 03:46 PM
Kedsy,

Are the advance stats from the paywall section of KenPom?

I plan on going to UNC’s opener and can report back if people are interested. I’ll focus on the backup PG since that’s the major interest here :)

No, I got the advanced stats from sports-reference.com.

Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15
11-08-2017, 04:45 PM
Yawn and sigh together at the same time.

I'm reminded of K and the five fingers = one fist parable. "many" here don't value team player contributions?! Poppycock!

Oh why do I even bother with this ridiculous thread...

Roy invented the concept of experimenting with lineups early in the season, consequences be damned.

Also, UNC looks BEYOND stats and metrics to find the leader within. Hence, Britt.

Duke fans wouldn't understand.

thedukelamere
11-08-2017, 04:58 PM
To digress slightly, using 35 minutes of play in the Final Four to prove whether someone is a good player or not is kind of silly. Putting aside that in this case Britt didn't do anything extraordinary in those 35 minutes, there have been about a zillion examples of guys who had brief spurts of greatness in otherwise mediocre careers. Peak moments are poor measuring sticks to define players.

Spike Albrecht is the championship game GOAT. :D

CDu
11-08-2017, 06:50 PM
Nate Britt: the most overdiscussed serviceable backup in DBR history.

El_Diablo
11-08-2017, 07:16 PM
What are people's thoughts on Brian Bersticker?

Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15
11-08-2017, 07:39 PM
What are people's thoughts on Brian Bersticker?

Serge Zwikker?

JasonEvans
11-09-2017, 12:09 PM
What are people's thoughts on Brian Bersticker?

Bersticker is my first pie victory (I think).

Wheat bet me that Bersticker would be All-ACC his senior season. The wager was a key lime pie from Wheat (he lives in Florida) against a peach pie from me (I live in Ga). Bersticker never sniffed All-ACC and Wheat sent me a key lime pie that had been dyed Carolina Blue. Very clever on his part.

-Jason "on second thought, it might not have been Bersticker... it may have been Jawad Williams or someone else... I forget" Evans

left_hook_lacey
11-09-2017, 12:53 PM
Bersticker is my first pie victory (I think).

Wheat bet me that Bersticker would be All-ACC his senior season. The wager was a key lime pie from Wheat (he lives in Florida) against a peach pie from me (I live in Ga). Bersticker never sniffed All-ACC and Wheat sent me a key lime pie that had been dyed Carolina Blue. Very clever on his part.

-Jason "on second thought, it might not have been Bersticker... it may have been Jawad Williams or someone else... I forget" Evans

Maybe Justin Bohlander? I remember many a UNC fan thinking he was gonna be the next big serviceable player and it just never panned out.

arnie
11-09-2017, 01:07 PM
Bersticker is my first pie victory (I think).

Wheat bet me that Bersticker would be All-ACC his senior season. The wager was a key lime pie from Wheat (he lives in Florida) against a peach pie from me (I live in Ga). Bersticker never sniffed All-ACC and Wheat sent me a key lime pie that had been dyed Carolina Blue. Very clever on his part.

-Jason "on second thought, it might not have been Bersticker... it may have been Jawad Williams or someone else... I forget" Evans

Was Bersticker ever on the Naismith watch list? I assume Britt made in multiple times .😏😏

tbyers11
11-09-2017, 01:33 PM
Bersticker is my first pie victory (I think).

Wheat bet me that Bersticker would be All-ACC his senior season. The wager was a key lime pie from Wheat (he lives in Florida) against a peach pie from me (I live in Ga). Bersticker never sniffed All-ACC and Wheat sent me a key lime pie that had been dyed Carolina Blue. Very clever on his part.

-Jason "on second thought, it might not have been Bersticker... it may have been Jawad Williams or someone else... I forget" Evans

I recall the that pie bet did involve Brian Bersticker

wobatus
11-09-2017, 01:44 PM
Nate Britt: the most overdiscussed serviceable backup in DBR history.

Wait, what about Stilman White?

rsvman
11-09-2017, 02:10 PM
I'll say this about Nate Britt........he was better than Drew II, who seemed to be pretty much constantly throwing passes to somebody's Grandmother in the second or third row.

At my house we've turned "Drew II" into a verb. If we're watching a basketball game and somebody throws a ridiculously wild pass that ends up in the stands, we say "He Drew-two'd it."

CDu
11-09-2017, 02:14 PM
Wait, what about Stilman White?

Not even close.

Wheat/"/"/"
11-09-2017, 02:23 PM
Bersticker is my first pie victory (I think).

Wheat bet me that Bersticker would be All-ACC his senior season. The wager was a key lime pie from Wheat (he lives in Florida) against a peach pie from me (I live in Ga). Bersticker never sniffed All-ACC and Wheat sent me a key lime pie that had been dyed Carolina Blue. Very clever on his part.

-Jason "on second thought, it might not have been Bersticker... it may have been Jawad Williams or someone else... I forget" Evans

As I recall it, the first pie bet was that I bet UNC would sweep Duke that season, ('97-98?), which they didn't , I think it was a split...

And that was one expensive, custom made pie..heck the shipping in dry ice cost as much as a Kia these days in inflation adjusted dollars....

I was positive on Bersticker when I saw him as a freshman. 6'11 with a nice shooting touch and could handle the ball some... but he never showed any toughness or real interest in playing hard his whole career.

It's hard to judge the heart of these players from a keyboard early on.....

DukieInBrasil
11-09-2017, 02:23 PM
Wait, what about Stilman White?

he was so unuseful that even Wheat didn't try to defend him, much.
Wheat loves his Heels, and his assertions about Britt have been laughably insane. Even he had enough sense to not try to stick up for Stilman.

left_hook_lacey
11-09-2017, 02:24 PM
he was so unuseful that even Wheat didn't try to defend him, much.
Wheat loves his Heels, and his assertions about Britt have been laughably insane. Even he had enough sense to not try to stick up for Stilman.

Are you saying he wasn't serviceable?

brlftz
11-09-2017, 02:26 PM
I'll say this about Nate Britt....he was better than Drew II, who seemed to be pretty much constantly throwing passes to somebody's Grandmother in the second or third row.

At my house we've turned "Drew II" into a verb. If we're watching a basketball game and somebody throws a ridiculously wild pass that ends up in the stands, we say "He Drew-two'd it."

My goodness that guy was bad. Imagine how stunned I was the other day to see him taking up a spot in the G League.

JasonEvans
11-09-2017, 02:31 PM
As I recall it, the first pie bet was that I bet UNC would sweep Duke that season, ('97-98?), which they didn't , I think it was a split...

And that was one expensive, custom made pie..heck the shipping in dry ice cost as much as a Kia these days in inflation adjusted dollars...

Great memory, sir! I do now recall the season sweep pie bet. Care to make that one again this year? Duke wins all 2 (or 3 or 4) games against the Heels and I win a pie from you. If Carolina brings the broom then you win one from me. If they split in any way (1-1, 2-1, 3-1) then we both go hungry.

DukieInBrasil
11-09-2017, 02:31 PM
Are you saying he wasn't serviceable?

If by "he got served, on the regular", then yes, Stilman was serviceable.

left_hook_lacey
11-09-2017, 02:35 PM
If by "he got served, on the regular", then yes, Stilman was serviceable.

Yeah, but did he have intangibles?

wobatus
11-09-2017, 02:50 PM
he was so unuseful that even Wheat didn't try to defend him, much.
Wheat loves his Heels, and his assertions about Britt have been laughably insane. Even he had enough sense to not try to stick up for Stilman.

Yeah just kidding. Although I did get ragged on for over-posting about Stilman on Backingthepack. He did start 2 games in his career other than senior day, and in those had 13 assists and zero TOs in the Elite 8 and Sweet 16. After barely playing all year. So a kind of make the most of your abilities moment.

InSpades
11-09-2017, 03:20 PM
Care to make that one again this year? Duke wins all 2 (or 3 or 4) games against the Heels and I win a pie from you. If Carolina brings the broom then you win one from me. If they split in any way (1-1, 2-1, 3-1) then we both go hungry.

You are taking advantage of his baby-blue-tinted glasses here :).

Have you ever lost a bet to him?

Matches
11-09-2017, 03:21 PM
Picking on Stilman White just seems pointless. He was pressed into service when Marshall got hurt in the NCAAT but was never really intended to be anything other than a practice player. Think Andre Buckner without Andre Buckner's awesome moment.

Wheat/"/"/"
11-09-2017, 08:30 PM
Great memory, sir! I do now recall the season sweep pie bet. Care to make that one again this year? Duke wins all 2 (or 3 or 4) games against the Heels and I win a pie from you. If Carolina brings the broom then you win one from me. If they split in any way (1-1, 2-1, 3-1) then we both go hungry.

You have the number one ranked team in the country and UNC only has some "serviceable" players...

I think the fair bet would be turn the tables back to that first pie bet...Duke is a big favorite, like UNC was with Carter/Jamison that year.

Duke sweeps UNC and you win. If UNC can find a way to compete with all those NBA guys and somehow manage a victory against Duke, you lose.

What say you?

Wheat/"/"/"
11-09-2017, 08:40 PM
he was so unuseful that even Wheat didn't try to defend him, much.
Wheat loves his Heels, and his assertions about Britt have been laughably insane. Even he had enough sense to not try to stick up for Stilman.

Stillman was a deep bench role player that was never expected to see any court time in big games. He was there to run the opposition team in practice. He was forced into a starting role after Marshall's injury and actually played very well in the tournament. He ran the offense and didn't get rattled on the big stage.

I credit that to the kids work ethic and Roy having him prepared, as Roy has always done with his entire roster.

JasonEvans
11-10-2017, 10:29 AM
You have the number one ranked team in the country and UNC only has some "serviceable" players...

I think the fair bet would be turn the tables back to that first pie bet...Duke is a big favorite, like UNC was with Carter/Jamison that year.

Duke sweeps UNC and you win. If UNC can find a way to compete with all those NBA guys and somehow manage a victory against Duke, you lose.

What say you?

The first pie bet was a push without a sweep. You are asking for more from me.

How about this... Duke sweeps, I win a pie. Carolina gets a split or better, you win the pie. But, if they face each other a third time (in the ACC tourney) and Duke takes the series 2-1, it is a push and no one eats delicious pie.

-Jason "I have never, ever lost a pie bet on the DBR" Evans

Wheat/"/"/"
11-10-2017, 11:13 AM
The first pie bet was a push without a sweep. You are asking for more from me.

How about this... Duke sweeps, I win a pie. Carolina gets a split or better, you win the pie. But, if they face each other a third time (in the ACC tourney) and Duke takes the series 2-1, it is a push and no one eats delicious pie.

-Jason "I have never, ever lost a pie bet on the DBR" Evans

I'm good with that...you know I'm a gambler.

Yes, you're 2-0 on pie bets....I credit that to variance 😎

JasonEvans
11-10-2017, 03:25 PM
I'm good with that...you know I'm a gambler.

Yes, you're 2-0 on pie bets...I credit that to variance 😎

We have an accord!

I'm all in on this Duke team!
http://donmillereducation.com/journal/wp-content/uploads/2010/10/ManPushingChips.jpg

DukieInBrasil
11-10-2017, 03:59 PM
We have an accord!

I'm all in on this Duke team!
http://donmillereducation.com/journal/wp-content/uploads/2010/10/ManPushingChips.jpg

that's why i'm such a bad gambler, i'm always all in on every Duke team! I always hope that Duke wins every game they play (in isolation). I never assume that Duke will go 40-0, but at the beginning of each game i think Duke can win it. I know the math doesn't add up, but that's the way my addled brain works.

PackMan97
11-11-2017, 09:35 AM
https://scout.com/college/north-carolina/Board/102713/Contents/Very-disappointed--110259469

Inside Carolina ponders all the empty seats in the Dean Dome, coming off a National Championship. If only there were something going on that might affect many fans desire to go see the Tarheels play. I wonder what it could be?

Oh that's right...it's the big three day weekend, Labor Day! That's it!

LOL! :rolleyes:

left_hook_lacey
11-11-2017, 03:10 PM
https://scout.com/college/north-carolina/Board/102713/Contents/Very-disappointed--110259469

Inside Carolina ponders all the empty seats in the Dean Dome, coming off a National Championship. If only there were something going on that might affect many fans desire to go see the Tarheels play. I wonder what it could be?

Oh that's right...it's the big three day weekend, Labor Day! That's it!

LOL! :rolleyes:

I thought the same thing. Especially behind the bench. This are the heavy hitters seats, and they couldn't muster up the strength to come to the home opener, after a championship, on a friday night. Pathetic.

Wheat/"/"/"
11-11-2017, 04:09 PM
I thought the same thing. Especially behind the bench. This are the heavy hitters seats, and they couldn't muster up the strength to come to the home opener, after a championship, on a friday night. Pathetic.

You guys shouldn't let any facts get in the way of your one way narrative.

There were twice as many UNC fans at the game last night than were at the Duke/Elon game..assuming Cameron was sold out. It's not like UNC fans don't care, as you try to promote...there were over 18,000 fans there.

The problem is the Dean Dome is just too big, 24,000 seats, and students don't get enough floor seats.

left_hook_lacey
11-11-2017, 04:38 PM
You guys shouldn't let any facts get in the way of your one way narrative.

There were twice as many UNC fans at the game last night than were at the Duke/Elon game..assuming Cameron was sold out. It's not like UNC fans don't care, as you try to promote...there were over 18,000 fans there.

The problem is the Dean Dome is just too big, 24,000 seats, and students don't get enough floor seats.

I'm just saying, the best seats in the house, behind your bench, we're empty. Not a good look. Did they leave their high dollar seats to go sit in other areas of the stadium?