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mgtr
10-20-2017, 07:56 AM
That is actually the punch line of a slightly risque joke from years ago, but, after the disappointments of last year, I am ready for the new basketball season. I guess I am a perennial optimist, but I think (absent serious injuries) we could have a great year. Go Duke!

Troublemaker
10-20-2017, 08:49 AM
That is actually the punch line of a slightly risque joke from years ago

That joke (http://jokes.cc.com/funny-school/cey7ok/psychology-class)'s downright wholesome for this day and age, really.


...but, after the disappointments of last year, I am ready for the new basketball season. I guess I am a perennial optimist, but I think (absent serious injuries) we could have a great year. Go Duke!

I'm with you. Very excited about this upcoming season, and I don't think we're alone. I suspect a lot of folks have built a dam to stem their optimism after what happened last season. They're being understandably cautious, for now. But, if Duke beats MSU in the Champions Classic and does it with a healthy team and while playing good defense, the dam will burst. There will be a tidal wave of optimism for this very talented team.

left_hook_lacey
10-20-2017, 10:43 AM
That is actually the punch line of a slightly risque joke from years ago, but, after the disappointments of last year, I am ready for the new basketball season. I guess I am a perennial optimist, but I think (absent serious injuries) we could have a great year. Go Duke!

Let's see......

A.) A generational 5 star talent at PF that is NBA ready?............................................ .........Check
B.) A 5 star dynamic play making distributor at PG?............................................... ............Check
C.) A senior All-America captain, that can score from anywhere, with something to prove?......Check
D.) A hall of fame coach that is the G.O.A.T. pulling the strings?.......................................... Check


7734

brevity
10-20-2017, 10:55 AM
7734

Wait... Grayson has a co-captain now?

left_hook_lacey
10-20-2017, 11:10 AM
Wait... Grayson has a co-captain now?

Didn't think about it, but, I think it is a MUST now. I'll notify K.

NSDukeFan
10-20-2017, 11:44 AM
Wait... Grayson has a co-captain now?

Wouldn't he be an obvious choice?

jimsumner
10-20-2017, 11:56 AM
That is actually the punch line of a slightly risque joke from years ago, but, after the disappointments of last year, I am ready for the new basketball season. I guess I am a perennial optimist, but I think (absent serious injuries) we could have a great year. Go Duke!

I thought it was the title of a Neil Young album.

cato
10-20-2017, 12:02 PM
I thought it was the title of a Neil Young album.

I have been signing that song to myself all morning after seeing this thread.

jacone21
10-20-2017, 12:06 PM
I have been signing that song to myself all morning after seeing this thread.

I'm stuck with Rod Stewart.

devildeac
10-20-2017, 12:06 PM
I thought it was the title of a Neil Young album.

Beat me to it, but, old folks remember (that applies to both of us:o) that Rust Never Sleeps.:p

jipops
10-20-2017, 12:12 PM
I have been signing that song to myself all morning after seeing this thread.

Bruce Berry was a working man. He used to load that Econoline ...

OldPhiKap
10-20-2017, 12:33 PM
I thought it was the title of a Neil Young album.


I have been signing that song to myself all morning after seeing this thread.

Yup.

true story: on the tour right after they recorded that album, Neil Young and Crazy Horse were in Germany. The fans thought they would hear his older hits, but they just played the songs on that album for over an hour (for those unfamiliar, it is a very dirge-like album of songs that were inspired by the death of several folks close to the band; the live versions of the songs tended to be extended and a bit dissonant). The crowd was very unhappy, and vocal about it.

At the end of the set, the band came out for the encore. Neil said: "We're gonna play something I know you've all heard before!" The crowd went wild, happy to finally hear the hits they had come to hear.

They instead played another long version of "tonight's the night" for the second time that evening, then walked off.

jipops
10-20-2017, 12:38 PM
Yup.

true story: on the tour right after they recorded that album, Neil Young and Crazy Horse were in Germany. The fans thought they would hear his older hits, but they basically played the songs on that album for over an hour (for those unfamiliar, it is a very dirge-like album of songs that were inspired by the death of several folks close to the band; the live versions of the songs tended to be extended and a bit dissonant). The crowd was very unhappy, and vocal about it.

At the end of the set, the band came out for the encore. Neil said: "We're gonna play something I know you've all heard before!" The crowd went wild, happy to finally hear the hits they had come to hear.

They played another long version of "tonight's the night" for the second time that evening, then walked off.

Highly recommend this read : https://www.amazon.com/dp/B000Q67KGU/ref=dp-kindle-redirect?_encoding=UTF8&btkr=1

Covers that era of Neil quite extensively as well as the making of that album.

kAzE
10-20-2017, 12:49 PM
The only thing I'm hoping for tonight is a completely injury free game. It's pretty much useless to expect otherwise, but Grayson will probably go 110%, as he always does, but I just hope he can slightly dial it down, as it's a meaningless scrimmage.

Remember when he nearly took out Amile's knees diving for a loose ball last year at CTC? Grayson has become the most stressful Duke player ever to watch that I can remember. But at the same time, he's almost certainly the best player on the team and maybe the best player in the country. Just don't kill yourself, please.

DukieInBrasil
10-20-2017, 12:55 PM
That is actually the punch line of a slightly risque joke from years ago, but, after the disappointments of last year, I am ready for the new basketball season. I guess I am a perennial optimist, but I think (absent serious injuries) we could have a great year. Go Duke!

better than being a perineal optimist...ba duh tching!

OldPhiKap
10-20-2017, 01:00 PM
better than being a perineal optimist...ba duh tching!

Or a perineal optometrist. Because that just would not make any sense.

Mrezt
10-20-2017, 01:09 PM
Grayson has become the most stressful Duke player ever to watch that I can remember. But at the same time, he's almost certainly the best player on the team and maybe the best player in the country. Just don't kill yourself, please.

This made me laugh out loud for some reason, I guess because it's true he just goes so damn hard sometimes. Singler threw himself around a lot too but not at the speed / doing the same things that Grayson does. It does come in handy though

gam7
10-20-2017, 01:14 PM
This made me laugh out loud for some reason, I guess because it's true he just goes so damn hard sometimes. Singler threw himself around a lot too but not at the speed / doing the same things that Grayson does. It does come in handy though

I just hope he takes it a little easier in CTC this year than he did last year when he almost Gordon-Haywarded Amile, diving into his legs for a loose ball.

Mrezt
10-20-2017, 01:24 PM
I just hope he takes it a little easier in CTC this year than he did last year when he almost Gordon-Haywarded Amile, diving into his legs for a loose ball.

Oh I totally agree, that scared the **** out of me. I should have clarified it's handy in close, real high pressure games and it can be used effectively, like that dive for the ball in 2015

kAzE
10-20-2017, 01:29 PM
I just hope he takes it a little easier in CTC this year than he did last year when he almost Gordon-Haywarded Amile, diving into his legs for a loose ball.

Honestly, I'd be totally cool with NBA All-Star game level defense. Just let the fans see some scoring and dunking and have everyone go home no worse for the wear . . .

Jeffrey
10-20-2017, 01:40 PM
They instead played another long version of "tonight's the night" for the second time that evening, then walked off.

Like Dylan, Young is a true maverick! Upon reflection, all of my favorite musicians were/are mavericks.

OldPhiKap
10-20-2017, 01:44 PM
Like Dylan, Young is a true maverick! Upon reflection, all of my favorite musicians were/are mavericks.

My heroes have always been cowboys. And they still are, it seems . . . .

But I think you and I have taken the road less traveled, and that has made all the difference.


Young at times has seemed hellbent on sabotaging his own career. He quit Buffalo Springfield the day before they were supposed to go on a national television show. He changes course whenever he gets popular. He did his electronic album, and his Blue Note album, just to piss off his record company.

Brilliant, and I love his music. But I bet he is a really difficult guy to work with on a practical level. Not "fun, but impractical" like Jerry.

evrim
10-20-2017, 01:50 PM
Is there a way to watch CTC online?

uh_no
10-20-2017, 01:53 PM
Is there a way to watch CTC online?

http://www.espn.com/watch/schedule/?type=upcoming

seems ESPN3 is carrying it

chrishoke
10-20-2017, 02:22 PM
Bruce Berry was a working man. He used to load that Econoline ...

"Well, early in the morning at just about the break of day He used to sleep until the afternoon."

jimsumner
10-20-2017, 02:35 PM
I'm stuck with Rod Stewart.

The Neil Young album Tonight's the Night was inspired--if that's the word--by the drug-induced deaths of roadie Bruce Berry and former Crazy Horse member Danny Whitten. Whitten wrote the song "I Don't Want to Talk About it," which was a hit for Rod Stewart.

Not sure how to work Kevin Bacon into this.

OldPhiKap
10-20-2017, 02:37 PM
The Neil Young album Tonight's the Night was inspired--if that's the word--by the drug-induced deaths of roadie Bruce Berry and former Crazy Horse member Danny Whitten. Whitten wrote the song "I Don't Want to Talk About it," which was a hit for Rod Stewart.

Not sure how to work Kevin Bacon into this.

President Lincoln's secretary was named Kennedy. President Kennedy's secretary was named Lincoln.

Jeffrey
10-20-2017, 02:49 PM
My heroes have always been cowboys. And they still are, it seems . . . .

But I think you and I have taken the road less traveled, and that has made all the difference.

Absolutely, following the crowd is boring, mind-numbing, and easy.


Young at times has seemed hellbent on sabotaging his own career. He quit Buffalo Springfield the day before they were supposed to go on a national television show. He changes course whenever he gets popular. He did his electronic album, and his Blue Note album, just to piss off his record company.

But I bet he is a really difficult guy to work with on a practical level. Not "fun, but impractical" like Jerry.

I share your opinion, but suspect many do not. As you know, Jerry and the boys changed course often and drove many record company execs crazy.

Franken & Davis relentlessly worked Lorne Michaels until he agreed to have the Grateful Dead on SNL. Michaels had a hard time getting the GD to show up for the audio/video check. Cameras were lined up and X's were placed on the stage where Michaels wanted Garcia and Weir to stand. Bobby played along and stood near his X but Jerry did not. After much effort and frustration, Michaels asked Garcia, "don't you want to be on TV, Jerry?". Garcia responded, "I don't give a sh@t."

uh_no
10-20-2017, 02:49 PM
Absolutely, following the crowd is boring, mind-numbing, and easy.



I share your opinion, but suspect many do not. As you know, Jerry and the boys changed course often and drove many record company execs crazy.

Franken & Davis relentlessly worked Lorne Michaels until he agreed to have the Grateful Dead on SNL. Michaels had a hard time getting the GD to show up for the audio/video check. Cameras were lined up and X's were placed on the stage where Michaels wanted Garcia and Weir to stand. Bobby played along and stood near his X but Jerry did not. After much effort and frustration, Michaels asked Garcia, "don't you want to be on TV, Jerry?". Garcia responded, "I don't give a sh@t."

you guys might not have noticed that basketball season starts tonight :) :) :)

just sayin'

Jeffrey
10-20-2017, 02:59 PM
The Neil Young album Tonight's the Night was inspired--if that's the word--by the drug-induced deaths of roadie Bruce Berry and former Crazy Horse member Danny Whitten. Whitten wrote the song "I Don't Want to Talk About it," which was a hit for Rod Stewart.

Not sure how to work Kevin Bacon into this.

It's easy to work one of your other favorites (Springsteen) into it.... Nils Lofgren.

Dr. Rosenrosen
10-20-2017, 03:02 PM
And here I thought this thread was gonna be about Styx.

OldPhiKap
10-20-2017, 03:02 PM
Franken & Davis relentlessly worked Lorne Michaels until he agreed to have the Grateful Dead on SNL. Michaels had a hard time getting the GD to show up for the audio/video check. Cameras were lined up and X's were placed on the stage where Michaels wanted Garcia and Weir to stand. Bobby played along and stood near his X but Jerry did not. After much effort and frustration, Michaels asked Garcia, "don't you want to be on TV, Jerry?". Garcia responded, "I don't give a sh@t."

Well, there's this:

https://youtu.be/tVrsPV4TTpQ

chrishoke
10-20-2017, 03:03 PM
How many concert minutes would you give to the Grateful Dead Vs. Neil Young for a two hour show?

Jeffrey
10-20-2017, 03:03 PM
you guys might not have noticed that basketball season starts tonight :) :) :)

just sayin'

Sure, we noticed. The Grateful Dead are connected to The Other Dream Team. Dig their shirts.

jimsumner
10-20-2017, 03:06 PM
you guys might not have noticed that basketball season starts tonight :) :) :)

just sayin'

CTC has been all downhill since Miles Plumlee took his unicycle and rode off into the sunset. :)

OldPhiKap
10-20-2017, 03:08 PM
CTC has been all downhill since Miles Plumlee took his unicycle and rode off into the sunset. :)

And since Marty Pocius set the standard for performance in the Blue-White game.

BandAlum83
10-20-2017, 04:10 PM
http://www.espn.com/watch/schedule/?type=upcoming

seems ESPN3 is carrying it

It looks like only 1/2 hour of coverage? Is 7:30 PM the scheduled scrimmage time?

Troublemaker
10-20-2017, 04:15 PM
It looks like only 1/2 hour of coverage? Is 7:30 PM the scheduled scrimmage time?

No, it'll be more than half an hour. "Primetime with the Pack" (starting at 8pm) will be a separate stream.

Honestly, 7:30pm is starting a bit too early. I'm probably going to wait until closer to 8:25pm when the scrimmage starts.

uh_no
10-20-2017, 04:15 PM
It looks like only 1/2 hour of coverage? Is 7:30 PM the scheduled scrimmage time?

Countdown to Craziness presented by Delta Air Lines Schedule of Events
6 p.m. – Doors open
7:55 p.m. – National anthem
8 p.m. – Introduction of the 2017-18 Blue Devils
8:25 p.m. – Blue-White scrimmage

gofurman
10-20-2017, 04:35 PM
http://www.espn.com/watch/schedule/?type=upcoming

seems ESPN3 is carrying it


when I go to ESPN3 it's not there.. just the football game with Pitt etc. I enter 'Duke' in the search bar and get nothing about CTC.

*HELP Please? I follow the link above and see it listed but it is not a hyperlink.. I can't actually click on it??

sagegrouse
10-20-2017, 04:48 PM
when I go to ESPN3 it's not there.. just the football game with Pitt etc. I enter 'Duke' in the search bar and get nothing about CTC.

*HELP Please? I follow the link above and see it listed but it is not a hyperlink.. I can't actually click on it??

Yep. It probably won't come live until the start 0f the program at 7:30 ET. (My sked says 5:30, but I assume it is Mountain Time). On the "Live Now" tab the hyperlinks are in place.

Kedsy
10-20-2017, 05:42 PM
Yep. It probably won't come live until the start 0f the program at 7:30 ET. (My sked says 5:30, but I assume it is Mountain Time). On the "Live Now" tab the hyperlinks are in place.

Do we know if it will also be on replay?

Mrezt
10-20-2017, 05:48 PM
Its on the 'Upcoming' section on WatchESPN so no fear, it will be coming on at 7:30 EST. You might have to log in to your Cable/Internet account, depending on which service you have (some will recognize your ISP automatically and just connect you, like Xfinity).

It should (99% sure) be available for replay for at least a week I would guess, maybe longer. Regardless, I'm positive that someone will be making a recording to put on Youtube

NSDukeFan
10-20-2017, 06:01 PM
How many concert minutes would you give to the Grateful Dead Vs. Neil Young for a two hour show?

After Gord Downie's recent passing, all music minutes in Canada are going to The Tragically Hip.

devildeac
10-20-2017, 06:05 PM
The Neil Young album Tonight's the Night was inspired--if that's the word--by the drug-induced deaths of roadie Bruce Berry and former Crazy Horse member Danny Whitten. Whitten wrote the song "I Don't Want to Talk About it," which was a hit for Rod Stewart.

Not sure how to work Kevin Bacon into this.

Oh, come on Jim, you're a writer/journalist, there's a place for Bacon in (almost) everything. :o

BD80
10-20-2017, 06:23 PM
when I go to ESPN3 it's not there.. just the football game with Pitt etc. I enter 'Duke' in the search bar and get nothing about CTC.

*HELP Please? I follow the link above and see it listed but it is not a hyperlink.. I can't actually click on it??

On the ESPN3 schedule, it only says "Countdown to Craziness," with no specific mention of Duke.

Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15
10-20-2017, 06:28 PM
On the ESPN3 schedule, it only says "Countdown to Craziness," with no specific mention of Duke.

What if it pertains to some other craziness???

UrinalCake
10-20-2017, 06:39 PM
It should (99% sure) be available for replay for at least a week I would guess, maybe longer. Regardless, I'm positive that someone will be making a recording to put on Youtube

They covered similar events at other schools and kept replay archives available for a while, so I'm with you and probably more like 99.99% sure.

I would assume coverage starts at 8 with the player intros, there's not much of an audience for potato chips sorting, but maybe they'll do some other team preview commentary and stuff starting at 7:30.

UrinalCake
10-20-2017, 06:40 PM
Also, according to DukeMBB they will be covering K's speech after the scrimmage as a Facebook live stream.

brlftz
10-20-2017, 07:00 PM
From tonight’s program:
7736

ETA: on mobile sorry for sideways!

Troublemaker
10-20-2017, 07:28 PM
The teams will be relatively even. But, gotta bet on White here.

Photo from Adam Rowe:

https://twitter.com/AdamRoweTDD/status/921510993796173824/photo/1https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DMndWkuUMAACIES.jpg

proelitedota
10-20-2017, 07:33 PM
Having buffering issues on the stream. :(

jacone21
10-20-2017, 07:46 PM
So is the broadcast just going to be big graphics covering the screen and some guys talking constantly?

Hancock 4 Duke
10-20-2017, 07:46 PM
Do they not do the dunk contest anymore?

Troublemaker
10-20-2017, 07:51 PM
So is the broadcast just going to be big graphics covering the screen and some guys talking constantly?

I think they'll show the anthem, the intros, and the scrimmage.

Some you guys tuned in a bit early. Re-posting the schedule below:


Countdown to Craziness presented by Delta Air Lines Schedule of Events
6 p.m. Ė Doors open
7:55 p.m. Ė National anthem
8 p.m. Ė Introduction of the 2017-18 Blue Devils
8:25 p.m. Ė Blue-White scrimmage

sagegrouse
10-20-2017, 08:04 PM
I think they'll show the anthem, the intros, and the scrimmage.

Some you guys tuned in a bit early. Re-posting the schedule below:

I am getting nada at 8:04

Troublemaker
10-20-2017, 08:17 PM
They're a bit behind schedule but should be showing the intros now.

UrinalCake
10-20-2017, 08:21 PM
Watching these player intro dances makes me really miss Frank Jackson.

proelitedota
10-20-2017, 08:24 PM
GOT theme. ;)

jacone21
10-20-2017, 08:25 PM
Vrank can't dance. :D

Furniture
10-20-2017, 08:32 PM
Brilliant!!
Everything is brilliant!

BD80
10-20-2017, 08:36 PM
Who is K talking to while team going through lay-up lines?

duke4ever19
10-20-2017, 08:36 PM
Who is K talking to while team going through lay-up lines?

Justise Winslow.

BD80
10-20-2017, 08:41 PM
Justise Winslow.

Rats, I was thinking that it was a really solid looking recruit ...

proelitedota
10-20-2017, 08:49 PM
Hope this is the worst shooting performance of our season. :eek:

Furniture
10-20-2017, 08:51 PM
Looked like some recruits walked to behind the bench just before the player intros.

BD80
10-20-2017, 09:12 PM
Seeing Carter standing next to Vrank ... Wendell is a big, big man.

UrinalCake
10-20-2017, 09:19 PM
Sluggish start but the teams are heating up! Watching Allen and Trent trade bombs is awesome. Also liking the interior passing. O'Connell and Goldwire are making statements that they want to be more than garbage time players.

jacone21
10-20-2017, 09:20 PM
There's an awful lot of talent on that floor, man. Hope K can mold them into a team.

UrinalCake
10-20-2017, 09:20 PM
Holy crap, did Duvall just do that ?!?!?

Duke95
10-20-2017, 09:29 PM
Holy crap, did Duvall just do that ?!?!?

Yes he did. Yes. He. Did.

Wow.

proelitedota
10-20-2017, 09:29 PM
Seeing Carter standing next to Vrank ... Wendell is a big, big man.

Wendell is 6'10 260, Vrank is 7'1 270. There should be a perceivable difference in size between the two. :confused:

BandAlum83
10-20-2017, 09:30 PM
Man o man. I'm glad we have Alex O'Connel. He reminds me of a Bobby Sura type player that would give us fits for four years.

Troublemaker
10-20-2017, 09:31 PM
That was one of the better CTC games we've seen.

Imagine combining those two teams into the much-predicted starting lineup of Duval-Allen-Trent-Bagley-Carter with Bolden, DeLaurier, and O'Connell/Goldwire off the bench.

We're going to be very good. Stay healthy.

Duke95
10-20-2017, 09:37 PM
I am very excited about what I saw tonight. Very athletic team. We have shooters too.

CDu
10-20-2017, 09:42 PM
Duval is just nasty.

Allen is very, very good at basketball.

Trent is pretty darn good too.

Carter is a beast inside. Just a wide load in the paint.

Bagley IS what freshman MP2 thought he was. Just a crazy skill set for a guy that size.

DeLaurier probably won't play much SF, and his shot was... not great. But oh what an athlete. Several blocks.

Oh the three backup wings, O'Connell looks the furthest along. By a lot.

Bolden looked good out there. Not out of place with Bagley and Carter, which is saying something.

If I had to guess right now, I would say that Bolden/Carter, DeLaurier, and O'Connell would be the guys off the bench in real games. Of course, we have a lot of time left.

But, if health holds, MAN, do we look like a good squad.

Troublemaker
10-20-2017, 09:45 PM
post-CTC press conference live right now: https://www.facebook.com/DukeMBB/videos/10155905541314456/

Furniture
10-20-2017, 09:47 PM
It certainly was the best CRaziness game I have seen in my seven year Duke fan career.
lots of fun.

SkyBrickey
10-20-2017, 09:51 PM
Wow. That was everything I was hoping for and more.

Bagley is as advertised. Superstar.

Very impressed with how athletic and poised Carter looked tonight. I knew he'd average 8+ rebounds a game for us. Now I'm thinking 15+ points watching him in action. He made all the right decisions with the ball.

Trent Jr. Streaky good. And confident. If he can hit 38-40% from 3 this year, we will be tough to beat.

O'Connell. Biggest surprise of the night. What a gamer. I expect him to get some minutes.

Goldwire was also solid. He can handle some back-up duty if we need him.

Duval. Are you kidding me? Have we ever had a freshman guard with that kind of talent and swagger? I expect him to run a little hot and cold as he adapts to life as a college PG, but his potential off the charts. I'll happily put up with some bonehead plays early in the year as he grows into the job.

Can't wait to see the starting 5 together - a devastating lineup. Go Devils!

mgtr
10-20-2017, 09:53 PM
Impressive - Allen, Bagley, Trent, Duvall
Very good - O'Connell, Goldwire, Bolden
Need work - Carter, DeLaurier

Just my take on the scrimmage. I think we will have a great team, can't wait to see them play another team. Well, I will have to wait a week.

proelitedota
10-20-2017, 09:54 PM
Bagley felt like a giant funnel directing the ball into the hoop. I don't ever remember watching a similar type of player like he is.

FerryFor50
10-20-2017, 09:57 PM
Bolden looked good out there. Not out of place with Bagley and Carter, which is saying something.


For all the people debating Bolden vs. Vrank for minutes, just watch the scrimmage. Bolden owned Vrank multiple times. Vrank is a solid, decent backup, but Bolden is better.

Furniture
10-20-2017, 09:58 PM
https://mobile.twitter.com/dukebasketball/status/921534739680555009/video/1

pure magic!!

UrinalCake
10-20-2017, 09:58 PM
Duval is just nasty.Oh the three backup wings, O'Connell looks the furthest along. By a lot.

Absolutely; Tucker and White were pretty non-existent. O'Connell must have gone on the Brandon Ingram diet over the summer, he looks so much more physically developed while still retaining his deceptive athleticism. Sweet looking stroke but also not afraid to take the ball to the hole.

ipatent
10-20-2017, 10:02 PM
It was good to see the new players. Not sure how much there is to be learned in one game, but O'Connell was definitely a surprise.

Hope that Trevon doesn't try that play in a close game during the regular season.

Furniture
10-20-2017, 10:04 PM
http://forums.dukebasketballreport.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=7737&stc=1Will he?

Furniture
10-20-2017, 10:06 PM
http://forums.dukebasketballreport.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=7738&stc=1

devilnfla
10-20-2017, 10:11 PM
Wendell is 6'10 260, Vrank is 7'1 270. There should be a perceivable difference in size between the two. :confused:

Pretty sure Vrank is not 7'1. Don't think he's even a true 7 footer.

FerryFor50
10-20-2017, 10:16 PM
Pretty sure Vrank is not 7'1. Don't think he's even a true 7 footer.

ESPN lists him as 7':

http://www.espn.com/mens-college-basketball/player/_/id/3913177/antonio-vrankovic

Sports reference has him at 7'1":
https://www.sports-reference.com/cbb/players/antonio-vrankovic-1.html

NBA draft net has him at 7'"
http://www.nbadraft.net/players/antonio-vrankovic

As does GoDuke:
http://www.goduke.com/ViewArticle.dbml?ATCLID=210294832

So perhaps everyone else is wrong and you're right.

devilnfla
10-20-2017, 10:16 PM
Impressive - Allen, Bagley, Trent, Duvall
Very good - O'Connell, Goldwire, Bolden
Need work - Carter, DeLaurier

Just my take on the scrimmage. I think we will have a great team, can't wait to see them play another team. Well, I will have to wait a week.

You put Carter in the Need work category? Sorry, but I put your evaluation skills in the same category.

Troublemaker
10-20-2017, 10:23 PM
Clockwise, from the left:

2019 C Armando Bacot
2018 PF Zion Williamson
2020 PG RJ Hampton
2020 PF Isaiah Todd
2019 PF Matthew Hurt
2019 PF Joey Baker


http://forums.dukebasketballreport.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=7738&stc=1

Furniture
10-20-2017, 10:33 PM
You put Carter in the Need work category? Sorry, but I put your evaluation skills in the same category.

The GOAT agrees with you.
Adam Rowe

@AdamRoweTDD
(https://mobile.twitter.com/AdamRoweTDD) K said if the season started today, Marvin Bagley and Wendell Carter would be the two starting bigs.

FerryFor50
10-20-2017, 10:36 PM
The GOAT agrees with you.
Adam Rowe

@AdamRoweTDD
(https://mobile.twitter.com/AdamRoweTDD) K said if the season started today, Marvin Bagley and Wendell Carter would be the two starting bigs.

I agree. Carter looked great. Very steady.

dukelifer
10-20-2017, 10:56 PM
Duval is just nasty.

Allen is very, very good at basketball.

Trent is pretty darn good too.

Carter is a beast inside. Just a wide load in the paint.

Bagley IS what freshman MP2 thought he was. Just a crazy skill set for a guy that size.

DeLaurier probably won't play much SF, and his shot was... not great. But oh what an athlete. Several blocks.

Oh the three backup wings, O'Connell looks the furthest along. By a lot.

Bolden looked good out there. Not out of place with Bagley and Carter, which is saying something.

If I had to guess right now, I would say that Bolden/Carter, DeLaurier, and O'Connell would be the guys off the bench in real games. Of course, we have a lot of time left.

But, if health holds, MAN, do we look like a good squad.
A lot of talent. Bagley is amazing. Such a talent. Duval had a few wow plays and didn't force. I really like O'Connell's game. He can handle pretty well, has a confident stroke and has some swagger. I did not expect that. Carter is a smart player - plays under control and sees the floor. He is unusual in that I don't see an NBA player at this point, but I will keep an open mind. Trent showed me a lot. His stroke is much better than he showed in the All star games. He is a strong, confident player. If he can keep folks honest from deep- Duke will have a much easier time of it. This Duke team will be fun to watch.

devilnfla
10-20-2017, 10:57 PM
ESPN lists him as 7':

http://www.espn.com/mens-college-basketball/player/_/id/3913177/antonio-vrankovic

Sports reference has him at 7'1":
https://www.sports-reference.com/cbb/players/antonio-vrankovic-1.html

NBA draft net has him at 7'"
http://www.nbadraft.net/players/antonio-vrankovic

As does GoDuke:
http://www.goduke.com/ViewArticle.dbml?ATCLID=210294832

So perhaps everyone else is wrong and you're right.

I said he's not 7'1. Looks like all your sources but 1 agree. I also said I don't think he's even 7 feet. That's based on eye test measuring him against 6'11 Bagley and Bolden. I think most would agree that these measurements are often embellished.

uh_no
10-20-2017, 11:01 PM
The GOAT agrees with you.
Adam Rowe

@AdamRoweTDD
(https://mobile.twitter.com/AdamRoweTDD) K said if the season started today, Marvin Bagley and Wendell Carter would be the two starting bigs.

i have trouble imagining how someone could DISAGREE.

bolden was better, sure, and had some nice plays....but at least 3 times completely lost his man on D for what should have been easy points. He also muffed what should have been an easy 2 on a great entry pass from grayson.

I have no doubt he'll get minutes....he's providing really good value...would probably be a starter on most teams in the country....but carter and bagley were really really good. bagley would have had more points if he didn't get jobbed on a couple non-calls.

aside from that, there is a lot of promise in trent and duvall. obviously crazy athletic....hopefully that translates into a less porous perimeter D we've been longing for. they got a bit ahead of themselves at times, but patience will be learned.

Javin with 9 boards.

will be nice to see everyone playing for the same side. I think it's hard to argue that we won't be starting 3 frosh and a senior. I think the last spot is still up for grabs between duvall and delaurier...obviously giving very different looks.

Thoughts that tucker would get significant minutes were significantly premature, I think. Jack white does not look the world beater some claimed he might be.

I'm withholding judgement on o'connell for the time being. could be an interesting twist.

gep
10-20-2017, 11:11 PM
Wow. That was everything I was hoping for and more.

Bagley is as advertised. Superstar.

Very impressed with how athletic and poised Carter looked tonight. I knew he'd average 8+ rebounds a game for us. Now I'm thinking 15+ points watching him in action. He made all the right decisions with the ball.

Trent Jr. Streaky good. And confident. If he can hit 38-40% from 3 this year, we will be tough to beat.

O'Connell. Biggest surprise of the night. What a gamer. I expect him to get some minutes.

Goldwire was also solid. He can handle some back-up duty if we need him.

Duval. Are you kidding me? Have we ever had a freshman guard with that kind of talent and swagger? I expect him to run a little hot and cold as he adapts to life as a college PG, but his potential off the charts. I'll happily put up with some bonehead plays early in the year as he grows into the job.

Can't wait to see the starting 5 together - a devastating lineup. Go Devils!

If I recall(?)... something like this was said of freshman Hurley... :cool: And that turned out great.

OldPhiKap
10-20-2017, 11:15 PM
^^I will repeat myself a bit to say: “SkyBrickey” is one of my favorite usernames on this board.

JohnJ
10-20-2017, 11:19 PM
Here is the link to the box score:

http://www.goduke.com/pdf9/5460019.pdf

Kedsy
10-20-2017, 11:29 PM
DeLaurier probably won't play much SF, and his shot was... not great. But oh what an athlete. Several blocks.

I don't know. The three Javin made looked OK; the one he missed looked awful. But more importantly, the few times he got switched onto smaller players I thought he looked good on D. I think he could play some SF. And with 9 rebs, 3 assists against only 1 turnover, 2 blocks and a steal, he was all over the stat sheet. I think he solidified himself as the clear 7th man.


Oh the three backup wings, O'Connell looks the furthest along. By a lot.

Alex was the MOTM. He looked great. Does that mean he's going to get meaningful minutes? I doubt it, but I'm fairly sure he's going to be the player that DBR posters go on and on about and keep asking how come he doesn't get meaningful minutes.


I think the last spot is still up for grabs between duvall and delaurier...obviously giving very different looks.

You think there's a chance that Trevon Duval won't start? Wow, that's a bold prediction.

OZ
10-20-2017, 11:32 PM
Just got home... not going to repeat others' observations. Just want to add

I hope the success of our team this year does not depend upon our ability to dance.

I realize the main things you take from this type of event are the players numbers and their size; however, the one big surprise (for me) on the positive side was O'Connell. He just might be pushing for some serious minutes.

Kedsy
10-20-2017, 11:48 PM
...however, the one big surprise (for me) on the positive side was O'Connell. He just might be pushing for some serious minutes.

As I said eariler, Alex was MOTM tonight, no question. But lest we forget, Brian Zoubek (in a 40 minute scrimmage) scored 27 points with 10 boards and 3 blocks in his freshman Blue/White. He totally dominated Josh McRoberts, who was our team's best player.

He then played 235 minutes the entire season. Which is more than Alex O'Connell will play this season.

uh_no
10-20-2017, 11:52 PM
You think there's a chance that Trevon Duval won't start? Wow, that's a bold prediction.

K in his presser talked specifically about how duval is making too many mistakes and delaurier was hampered by a tight hammy.

he also did talk about how duval had a great practice yesterday.

I would put good odds on him starting....but there is always a CHANCE he won't start. maybe he breaks his leg tomorrow, for instance. The only things certain in life are death, taxes, and people being far too certain about things.

of course that's not to what I was referring....but if he continues to be sloppy, (using "continues" somewhat loosely given we have a tiny tiny data set), I could see him moving to the bench IF delaurier is snagging rebounds at a good rate like he did tonight, among other big IFs.

Furniture
10-20-2017, 11:52 PM
http://www.goduke.com/mediaPortal/player.dbml?id=6218836
Lots of good stuff. One thing that K said was if Carter and Bagley start he wants Bolden and Javin coming off the bench and thinking like starters!

DevilFalcon
10-21-2017, 12:08 AM
It's an exhibition so there was some sloppiness.
Bagley is incredibly talented all over the court. He will probably be the most talented player on the court at all times in all games all year long. That spin move at 6'11" seems to defy physics.
Duval has great talent but turned it over on steals quite a bit. Him at point is probably my biggest concern for the team after watching this sample. Hopefully he just had the first night jitters. His self pass off the backboard alley oop is worth looking up. And his dunks in the dunk contest.
McConnell was really impressive.
Every big but Bolden and Vrank took a 3. Carter, delaurier, Bagley. But we probably don't see that in the season very much.
Trent's stroke is nice.
Allen looks likes he won't be stopped.

I really think this team, if we can finally stay mostly healthy, has the chance to really dominate.

kAzE
10-21-2017, 12:13 AM
Based on this scrimmage and Coach K's comments in the presser, I'm starting to think Jordan Goldwire might be the backup guard if someone is in foul trouble or (God forbid) gets hurt. Definitely not in the 6.5 man rotation, but I think he's ahead of Alex.

Alex had a big night for sure, but Goldwire started for the White team, played 20 minutes, and looked competent out there. I think he's got some potential to be a decent defender down the road, he did a pretty nice job on Trevon.

Kedsy
10-21-2017, 12:15 AM
Every big but Bolden and Vrank took a 3.

Actually, Marques did attempt a three.


McConnell was really impressive.


He was, but perhaps the most impressive thing about McConnell is that his name is O'Connell.

duke4ever19
10-21-2017, 12:46 AM
Based on this scrimmage and Coach K's comments in the presser, I'm starting to think Jordan Goldwire might be the backup guard if someone is in foul trouble or (God forbid) gets hurt. Definitely not in the 6.5 man rotation, but I think he's ahead of Alex.

Alex had a big night for sure, but Goldwire started for the White team, played 20 minutes, and looked competent out there. I think he's got some potential to be a decent defender down the road, he did a pretty nice job on Trevon.

I don't think this necessarily signals anything. Duvall was on the blue team, but he's a starter. I'm pretty sure K said he had them playing a little bit differently than the usual teams in practice.

English
10-21-2017, 12:49 AM
K in his presser talked specifically about how duval is making too many mistakes and delaurier was hampered by a tight hammy.

he also did talk about how duval had a great practice yesterday.

I would put good odds on him starting...but there is always a CHANCE he won't start. maybe he breaks his leg tomorrow, for instance. The only things certain in life are death, taxes, and people being far too certain about things.

of course that's not to what I was referring...but if he continues to be sloppy, (using "continues" somewhat loosely given we have a tiny tiny data set), I could see him moving to the bench IF delaurier is snagging rebounds at a good rate like he did tonight, among other big IFs.

Soooo, playing Grayson out of position again at the 1? Nope. Tre is locked in at PG and itís silly to talk otherwise...especially about broken legs, cmon guy. Have some awareness.

OZ
10-21-2017, 01:05 AM
As I said eariler, Alex was MOTM tonight, no question. But lest we forget, Brian Zoubek (in a 40 minute scrimmage) scored 27 points with 10 boards and 3 blocks in his freshman Blue/White. He totally dominated Josh McRoberts, who was our team's best player.

He then played 235 minutes the entire season. Which is more than Alex O'Connell will play this season.

If you read my post, I acknowledged the foolishness of jumping to any conclusions about tonight. I also said, O'Connell "might" be pushing. I am well aware of your statement that "posters" would bring him up; so call me hard headed, but, for this one time, he did impress me. Unlike you and perhaps others, that is all I have seen by which to offer an opinion.
As to MOTM, I thought that was certainly Allen. He could have done a lot more, but played under control and seemed to make sure he involved everyone.
As to your Zoubek /O'Connell comparison... if O'Connell brings to Duke what Zoubek did, I'll take that any day from any player.

InSpades
10-21-2017, 01:10 AM
I don't think this necessarily signals anything. Duvall was on the blue team, but he's a starter. I'm pretty sure K said he had them playing a little bit differently than the usual teams in practice.

I think the point was that Goldwire started... not that he was on the white team. If O'Connell was ahead of Goldwire on the depth chart then he likely would have started instead of coming in as a reserve.

Obviously things get shifted around a bit in a scrimmage... it wouldn't surprise anyone to see Grayson being the backup PG but in a scrimmage like this when you're going 10+ deep... it makes sense to play Grayson at his natural position and leave the PG duties to others.

IrishDevil
10-21-2017, 01:18 AM
As to your Zoubek /O'Connell comparison... if O'Connell brings to Duke what Zoubek did, I'll take that any day from any player.

... three seasons from now. Nice to think he could replicate some of tonight if called upon during conference play, but count me as one who is not holding his breath. That being said, I was expecting a lot more Ryan Kelly in his game, but Alex is a definitely the better athlete between the two. And yes, it does look like he has bulked up significantly, not that that is saying much.

In his presser, K basically tipped his starting lineup. Discussing tonight's lineups, he said the squads that practice against each other - i.e., starters and scout team - were mixed up tonight, but that chemistry was developing in practice, and the examples he gave were Grayson and Gary, and Marvin and Wendell. I'm sure this is unsurprising at this point, but K, for now, seems to be thinking Duval-Allen-Trent-Bagley-Carter as starters. Though he did mention an Allen-Trent-Bagley-Carter-Bolden lineup as an example of some of the different looks we could give. I would hate to try to drive the lane against that squad, yikes.

IrishDevil
10-21-2017, 01:25 AM
I think the point was that Goldwire started... not that he was on the white team. If O'Connell was ahead of Goldwire on the depth chart then he likely would have started instead of coming in as a reserve.

Obviously things get shifted around a bit in a scrimmage... it wouldn't surprise anyone to see Grayson being the backup PG but in a scrimmage like this when you're going 10+ deep... it makes sense to play Grayson at his natural position and leave the PG duties to others.

Obviously none of us is at practice with the team, but it seems unlikely that Goldwire's starting has any implications for the order in which he, a point guard, would come off the bench as compared to Alex, a wing. Numbers and scrimmage balance seem the more likely culprits, here.

Troublemaker
10-21-2017, 01:40 AM
As I said eariler, Alex was MOTM tonight, no question. But lest we forget, Brian Zoubek (in a 40 minute scrimmage) scored 27 points with 10 boards and 3 blocks in his freshman Blue/White. He totally dominated Josh McRoberts, who was our team's best player.

He then played 235 minutes the entire season. Which is more than Alex O'Connell will play this season.

I'd give MOTM to Gary. Team White had pretty good control of the game up 28-21, and it was then Gary's barrage of scoring that got Blue back into the game. Gary also did a really good job guarding Grayson and making him work hard -- his defense may have fatigued Grayson into some crucial misses and poor passes towards the end of the game. It wasn't quite the shutdown job that Matt did on Grayson in last year's CTC, but it was very, very good defense from Gary. Hopefully he can continue these 3-and-D ways; it's exactly what we need from him, and it's exactly what NBA scouts want to see from him.



bolden was better, sure, and had some nice plays...but at least 3 times completely lost his man on D for what should have been easy points. He also muffed what should have been an easy 2 on a great entry pass from grayson.

Careful. On those hedges, it's part of the scheme to have others rotate towards the rolling big man. Especially on the side pick-n-rolls, Duke is basically just double-teaming the ball and allowing the roller to run free into (hopefully) rotating defenders. I don't Marques lost his man as often as you think.

subzero02
10-21-2017, 02:56 AM
I'm a bit over 9 minutes into the scrimmage and I like what I see so far. Bagley is an incredibly skilled big man. Our defensive potential is scary... if we stay healthy, oh what a wonderful season it could be.

O'Connell is very impressive and I like Trent.. he's got some swagger

BullBlue
10-21-2017, 06:43 AM
I don't think this necessarily signals anything. Duvall was on the blue team, but he's a starter. I'm pretty sure K said he had them playing a little bit differently than the usual teams in practice.

I was wondering. Does anyone know how they make up the teams for the Blue/White scrimmage? Does Coach K pick them for balance? Do they do an internal draft? The teams were really competitive, that was fun to watch.

mgtr
10-21-2017, 06:50 AM
You put Carter in the Need work category? Sorry, but I put your evaluation skills in the same category.

OK, I really mixed up Carter and Bolden, Carter was pretty good, though not on the level of Bagley. The real reason for my post, however, was to point out the surprises of Goldwire and O'Connell. Very pleasant surprise.

Furniture
10-21-2017, 06:53 AM
I was wondering. Does anyone know how they make up the teams for the Blue/White scrimmage? Does Coach K pick them for balance? Do they do an internal draft? The teams were really competitive, that was fun to watch.

In his presser K pretty much said it was for balance.

dukelifer
10-21-2017, 07:38 AM
As I said eariler, Alex was MOTM tonight, no question. But lest we forget, Brian Zoubek (in a 40 minute scrimmage) scored 27 points with 10 boards and 3 blocks in his freshman Blue/White. He totally dominated Josh McRoberts, who was our team's best player.

He then played 235 minutes the entire season. Which is more than Alex O'Connell will play this season.

Recall Freshman Grayson Allen who seemed to be buried on the bench until the end of the year. O'Connell will have his moments - I saw a skilled player who can shoot the ball and they seem to find a way.

OldPhiKap
10-21-2017, 07:45 AM
He was, but perhaps the most impressive thing about McConnell is that his name is O'Connell.

The Irish all look the same.

ó OíPK

dukelifer
10-21-2017, 07:47 AM
Based on this scrimmage and Coach K's comments in the presser, I'm starting to think Jordan Goldwire might be the backup guard if someone is in foul trouble or (God forbid) gets hurt. Definitely not in the 6.5 man rotation, but I think he's ahead of Alex.

Alex had a big night for sure, but Goldwire started for the White team, played 20 minutes, and looked competent out there. I think he's got some potential to be a decent defender down the road, he did a pretty nice job on Trevon.

I agree Goldwire is ahead because he can defend and is good with the ball. Trevon did not dominate out there as I expected. He will start but he is no Kyrie. He is a strong athletic guard but has a lot of work to do to get to the next level.

Bluedevil114
10-21-2017, 08:15 AM
Alex was impressive. He has a little Kennard in him where he can create his own shot. His outside shot is no where near Lukeís consistency. I was watching Alex warm up. His shot is smooth and looks good. I must have watched him take 30 three point shots from three spots on the floor. They were all hitting the rim but he made only seven and never two in a row. Coach K in his presser basically said he will be on the bench this year reading through the lines but said he had a very good week and very good scrimmage. Coach said he was tough. It will have to be a Grayson moment that gets him on the floor. Speaking about the floor I loved how he dove after the ball ďGraysonĒ in the scrimmage and caused the turnover.

TKG
10-21-2017, 08:55 AM
I was not able to see the scrimmage. Anyone have thoughts on Trent? I am putting the cart way, way before the horse but I keep thinking of Westbrook. Not comaring the two but thinking of a trend line. Blue colored lens, I suppose.

Newton_14
10-21-2017, 09:17 AM
I was wondering. Does anyone know how they make up the teams for the Blue/White scrimmage? Does Coach K pick them for balance? Do they do an internal draft? The teams were really competitive, that was fun to watch. Coach K and the assistants create the two line-ups trying their best to balance the teams out hoping for a competitive game.

A really great night! (Thanks Debbie K). Me and a friend took our two daughters, and the girls enjoyed every second! As for the game, the biggest takeaway for me was just how much overall talent we have on the roster. Other than depth with great shooters, this collection of players bring a lot of different tools in the ol skillsets toolbox. Bagley is going to be a star player out there, Grayson looks like a smarter, more rounded version of his Sophomore self that seemingly will score at will. That first 3 he hit from the sideline in front of the Crazies with the shot clock running down was just plain ridiculous on the degree of difficulty meter. Those two guys will for sure be the top two players on the team.

I saw three key elements that have been lacking in the past few seasons, those being 1. Athletic Pass-First PG with elite ball handling skills, 2. Multiple bigs with elite talent at scoring the basketball, rebounding, and elite level scoring ability in the post. 3. A collection of perimeter players that should be able to defend really well, and with elite level athleticism. We will have a very different look than the past two years. The offense will be designed to utilize scoring in the post on post up's with Bagley/Carter/Bolen, drive, draw, and dish with Duval, utilizing the 3 with Allen/Trent/O'Connell, scoring off offensive rebounding, and finally forcing turnovers that lead to points. K said in the presser that the plan is to press and pressure the ball to try and force turnovers to score.

Like others I was very impressed with Alex O. Both he and Goldwire were much better than I expected. At one point I texted several DBR buddies in a group chat that O'Connell was looking more impressive than Trent Jr, and very shortly afterwards I had to text them back to say "LOL Trent Jr must have heard me cause he is lighting it up right now". Javin impressed me. He has improved a lot, he blocked dunk attempts by Bagley, and one other player that escapes me.

After watching the game in person and then watching Coach K's presser online after the game, I see the top 9 guys as Allen/Duval/Trent Jr/Bagley/Carter, with Bolden/Javin/O'Connell/Goldwire...Also based on those same two things I think Goldwire will have a role similar to Tyler Thornton his freshman year prior to the Kyrie injury. K was asked how deep he would go and he quickly answered "Normally you settle into a rotation of about 8 guys, 8 to 9 actually" but quickly stated "But not all with equal minutes, not equal". Agree with Kedsy that there will be people screaming "Alex should be getting more minutes" and I will for sure be one of them...

To sum it up, I saw Final Four level talent out there last night. If they can be molded and shaped into a "team" intangible's including with great chemistry with each individual maximizing their talents and skillsets to fulfill their part of the "FIST", and avoid the injury bug, they will have a very successful season.

Let's go Banner Hunting fellas! GO DUKE

Jackson
10-21-2017, 09:19 AM
I was not able to see the scrimmage. Anyone have thoughts on Trent? I am putting the cart way, way before the horse but I keep thinking of Westbrook. Not comaring the two but thinking of a trend line. Blue colored lens, I suppose.

Trent is definitely streaky. I didn't see much from him at the beginning of the scrimmage. He was the least impressive of the top freshmen. At the end, he was the best player on the court IMO. As for O'Connell and Goldwire, it reminds me of the old conversations about summer pick-up games. I'm waiting for the Nick Horvath reference. There's only one ball and 40 minutes. Duval, Allen, Bagley, Trent, Carter, Bolden are going to get the lion's share of the minutes. I'm thinking Javin and then whatever is left won't be much. Was fun to watch O'Connell and Goldwire both compete, but neither was even a top 75 recruit. I'll be much more excited about both of them in a couple of years. I do predict that O'Connell will be the next great hated Duke player by his junior season.

sagegrouse
10-21-2017, 09:24 AM
Grayson on our big men -- from your lips to God's ears:


ďThis team I think has the most combination of size and athleticism that Iíve been on,Ē Allen said. ďMost of the teams that Iíve played on here have ended up going small. Whereas I think this team will go big just because of how much talent we have at the big spot.Ē

Let's see.... Four big guys in the regular rotation. Then there are the likely starters, Grayson, Duval and Gary. Plus, moving out of the ionosphere, there is a strong list of potential players: last night's leading scorer, Alex O'Connell; the leading rebounder, Jack White; only sub to play 20 minutes, Jordan Goldwire. Yes, I know, Alex is likely to be glued to the bench this year. But then there is savvy, really savvy big man, Big Vrank who may demand minutes..

I am getting dizzy with the (unlikely) prospects of a deep rotation. It is time to put the cap back on the tube of glue.

SkyBrickey
10-21-2017, 09:30 AM
I was not able to see the scrimmage. Anyone have thoughts on Trent? I am putting the cart way, way before the horse but I keep thinking of Westbrook. Not comaring the two but thinking of a trend line. Blue colored lens, I suppose.

I don't think Trent is nearly as athletic as Westbrook. He's a guy who can score from everywhere and knows it - like a Luke. But I think he's a much better defender than Luke.

I didn't see Trent drive to the basket or finish any breaks last night. I look forward to seeing more of that athleticism on display once the season starts.

Newton_14
10-21-2017, 09:37 AM
Trent is definitely streaky. I didn't see much from him at the beginning of the scrimmage. He was the least impressive of the top freshmen. At the end, he was the best player on the court IMO. As for O'Connell and Goldwire, it reminds me of the old conversations about summer pick-up games. I'm waiting for the Nick Horvath reference. There's only one ball and 40 minutes. Duval, Allen, Bagley, Trent, Carter, Bolden are going to get the lion's share of the minutes. I'm thinking Javin and then whatever is left won't be much. Was fun to watch O'Connell and Goldwire both compete, but neither was even a top 75 recruit. I'll be much more excited about both of them in a couple of years. I do predict that O'Connell will be the next great hated Duke player by the 2nd game of this season.

Fixed it for you LOL. On a serious note, great post. Most seasons the top 6 to 7 guys play the lions share of minutes, with players 8 thru 13 either sitting because they are either "not ready", or "they are simply not talented enough to garner minutes". This will be one of the rare season when the 8 to say 11th or somewhere in between players actually are ready and good enough to contribute, but sit because there are just too many better players ahead of them, and also because K believes in giving the top 6 to 8 players the lions share of the minutes trying to mold that set of guys into the best "team" they can possibly be. i would rather he go deeper than that during the seasons where the 8th/9th/10th guys are actually good enough to contribute and help the team, but that is just not in Coach K's DNA.....

Neals384
10-21-2017, 09:42 AM
It's an exhibition so there was some sloppiness.
Bagley is incredibly talented all over the court. He will probably be the most talented player on the court at all times in all games all year long. That spin move at 6'11" seems to defy physics.
Duval has great talent but turned it over on steals quite a bit. Him at point is probably my biggest concern for the team after watching this sample. Hopefully he just had the first night jitters. His self pass off the backboard alley oop is worth looking up. And his dunks in the dunk contest.
McConnell was really impressive.
Every big but Bolden and Vrank took a 3. Carter, delaurier, Bagley. But we probably don't see that in the season very much.
Trent's stroke is nice.
Allen looks likes he won't be stopped.

I really think this team, if we can finally stay mostly healthy, has the chance to really dominate.

Wasn't able to watch, but looking at the box score, Grayson did not have any 2-pt attempts. Did he try to drive at all? Are his hops 100% back from last year's injury?

WillJ
10-21-2017, 09:43 AM
Is the scrimmage video available online?

Jackson
10-21-2017, 09:44 AM
Fixed it for you LOL. On a serious note, great post. Most seasons the top 6 to 7 guys play the lions share of minutes, with players 8 thru 13 either sitting because they are either "not ready", or "they are simply not talented enough to garner minutes". This will be one of the rare season when the 8 to say 11th or somewhere in between players actually are ready and good enough to contribute, but sit because there are just too many better players ahead of them, and also because K believes in giving the top 6 to 8 players the lions share of the minutes trying to mold that set of guys into the best "team" they can possibly be. i would rather he go deeper than that during the seasons where the 8th/9th/10th guys are actually good enough to contribute and help the team, but that is just not in Coach K's DNA....

Agree completely with you about the 8th-10th guys this year. The thing about most of those guys is if they stay, they really could develop into good players later in their careers. I think about Lee Melchionni and how he turned into a really good player and starter by his senior year.

Troublemaker
10-21-2017, 09:48 AM
I agree Goldwire is ahead because he can defend and is good with the ball. Trevon did not dominate out there as I expected. He will start but he is no Kyrie. He is a strong athletic guard but has a lot of work to do to get to the next level.

Trevon's easily the biggest concern on the team right now. Not that everyone else is perfect, but he's the one with the biggest role who is struggling right now.

At the same time, it seems to me the solution is pretty simple. He needs to stop trying to make the spectacular play and just make the simple, solid plays that will be available due to his handle, athleticism, and court vision. The game-winning play was perfect, for example. He drove, collapsed the defense, and found O'Connell for the open corner 3.

We should never see Trevon alley-ooping to himself again in that situation, although I enjoyed it. But, even prior to that, there was another play where he blew a 3-on-0 break where he could've just dunked the ball himself or made the simple pass to Bagley or Wendell for the dunk. Instead he went for the alley-oop that was slightly off-target and Wendell missed the layup. Team White got the rebound and scored going the other way.

dukelifer
10-21-2017, 09:55 AM
I was not able to see the scrimmage. Anyone have thoughts on Trent? I am putting the cart way, way before the horse but I keep thinking of Westbrook. Not comaring the two but thinking of a trend line. Blue colored lens, I suppose.

Ahh- no. He is a strong, physical wing- but he did not show other worldly driving ability. Maybe a Courtney Lee type NBA player.

Troublemaker
10-21-2017, 10:01 AM
Duval, Allen, Bagley, Trent, Carter, Bolden are going to get the lion's share of the minutes. I'm thinking Javin and then whatever is left won't be much.


I don't know. The three Javin made looked OK; the one he missed looked awful. But more importantly, the few times he got switched onto smaller players I thought he looked good on D. I think he could play some SF. And with 9 rebs, 3 assists against only 1 turnover, 2 blocks and a steal, he was all over the stat sheet. I think he solidified himself as the clear 7th man.

I think Javin might actually become the 6th man ahead of Marques, and I'm higher on Marques' play than most. Javin's a really nice defensive and rebounding weapon out there, and he's versatile defensively, too.

sagegrouse
10-21-2017, 10:02 AM
Wasn't able to watch, but looking at the box score, Grayson did not have any 2-pt attempts. Did he try to drive at all? Are his hops 100% back from last year's injury?

Grayson drove at will but passed to Bagley or a shooter in the corner.

dukelifer
10-21-2017, 10:03 AM
Trevon's easily the biggest concern on the team right now. Not that everyone else is perfect, but he's the one with the biggest role who is struggling right now.

At the same time, it seems to me the solution is pretty simple. He needs to stop trying to make the spectacular play and just make the simple, solid plays that will be available due to his handle, athleticism, and court vision. The game-winning play was perfect, for example. He drove, collapsed the defense, and found O'Connell for the open corner 3.

We should never see Trevon alley-ooping to himself again in that situation, although I enjoyed it. But, even prior to that, there was another play where he blew a 3-on-0 break where he could've just dunked the ball himself or made the simple pass to Bagley or Wendell for the dunk. Instead he went for the alley-oop that was slightly off-target and Wendell missed the layup. Team White got the rebound and scored going the other way.

But when you have NBA aspirations - that is tough to contain. He is not as good as he thinks he is and that is part of the issue. He is averaged sized, an average shooter that is not an world-class passer and that is not the DNA of a starting NBA point guard. He is very athletic and strong and that type of player can dominate HS. He can be like Rose but has to improve his driving at this level. He should have owned Goldwire and I did not see that. I sensed a little concern from K that he is not taking criticism well. We will see.

Newton_14
10-21-2017, 10:03 AM
Trevon's easily the biggest concern on the team right now. Not that everyone else is perfect, but he's the one with the biggest role who is struggling right now.

At the same time, it seems to me the solution is pretty simple. He needs to stop trying to make the spectacular play and just make the simple, solid plays that will be available due to his handle, athleticism, and court vision. The game-winning play was perfect, for example. He drove, collapsed the defense, and found O'Connell for the open corner 3.

We should never see Trevon alley-ooping to himself again in that situation, although I enjoyed it. But, even prior to that, there was another play where he blew a 3-on-0 break where he could've just dunked the ball himself or made the simple pass to Bagley or Wendell for the dunk. Instead he went for the alley-oop that was slightly off-target and Wendell missed the layup. Team White got the rebound and scored going the other way.

I'm not concerned about Trevon, at least not right now. Top PG's will sometimes have a few more T/O's than preferred because they attempt more passes that have a high degree of difficulty which is not a bad thing unless it becomes a situation where the A/T ratio is bad and is either trending in the wrong direction or is not good and is not trending down. turnover wise. He can't shoot a lick (bless his heart) but man the ball-handling skillset is off the charts.

I think valuing the ball and possessions is something the staff will work very hard on with Trevon. He might start out the season a little wild in that regard, but once he gets benched for long periods of time in the early cup-cake games, I suspect he will start to understand he is not going to play multiple minutes no matter what even if he is throwing the ball into the 7th row all the time.

dukelifer
10-21-2017, 10:06 AM
I think Javin might actually become the 6th man ahead of Marques, and I'm higher on Marques' play than most. Javin's a really nice defensive and rebounding weapon out there, and he's versatile defensively, too.

Just more natural defensive chops and way bouncier. Javin can be an offensive rebounding machine and score from those opportunist much better than Bolden. Bolden just needs to keep working and hope he can stay healthy.

Troublemaker
10-21-2017, 10:17 AM
I'm not concerned about Trevon, at least not right now. Top PG's will sometimes have a few more T/O's than preferred because they attempt more passes that have a high degree of difficulty which is not a bad thing unless it becomes a situation where the A/T ratio is bad and is either trending in the wrong direction or is not good and is not trending down. turnover wise. He can't shoot a lick (bless his heart) but man the ball-handling skillset is off the charts.

I think valuing the ball and possessions is something the staff will work very hard on with Trevon. He might start out the season a little wild in that regard, but once he gets benched for long periods of time in the early cup-cake games, I suspect he will start to understand he is not going to play multiple minutes no matter what even if he is throwing the ball into the 7th row all the time.

I think we're on the same wavelength, my friend, just using different labels. What you describe in the bolded statement, I would call concerning. Hopefully he "gets it" sooner rather than later.

Jackson
10-21-2017, 10:28 AM
I think Javin might actually become the 6th man ahead of Marques, and I'm higher on Marques' play than most. Javin's a really nice defensive and rebounding weapon out there, and he's versatile defensively, too.

I feel bad about the development of Bolden. I really am rooting for that kid. He came to Duke with such promise. Javin was always a developing player. Would be great to see them play together next year. Looks like most of the team will be under 6'8". Will need their size. I've now officially destroyed this thread looking to 2018. I thought Bolden would be the starter at the 5 this summer. Looks like Trent will definitely start. If Bolden becomes the 7th guy, I just wonder how it affects his development psychologically.

Troublemaker
10-21-2017, 10:28 AM
But when you have NBA aspirations - that is tough to contain. He is not as good as he thinks he is and that is part of the issue. He is averaged sized, an average shooter that is not an world-class passer and that is not the DNA of a starting NBA point guard. He is very athletic and strong and that type of player can dominate HS. He can be like Rose but has to improve his driving at this level. He should have owned Goldwire and I did not see that. I sensed a little concern from K that he is not taking criticism well. We will see.

It's really not JGold that's containing Trevon right now but our big men, who are putting in solid hedges to stop him from penetrating. On that final play, though, instead of calling for a ball screen, Coach Scheyer just had Trevon take JGold 1-on-1 and he was able to get the penetration and kickout for the game-winning shot. I suspect Trevon could beat JGold 1-on-1 a lot more often if called upon to do so.

Neals384
10-21-2017, 11:46 AM
Grayson drove at will but passed to Bagley or a shooter in the corner.

Thanks, that helps. I'm hoping this year he develops a floater for easy buckets without getting too far into the defense where he gets beat up by no-call fouls.

duke4ever19
10-21-2017, 11:49 AM
In his presser K pretty much said it was for balance.

This, I think, is correct. That's why I'm reading essentially nothing into who was playing and what color their jerseys were.

I don't think the rationale was anything like, "Well, since he'll be the second starter, we'll put him here and this player over here." I don't think the future starting lineup really influenced this, nor did it signal who would be the next player off the bench if player "x" on the white team took a breather during a live game. The concern was merely to balance lineups to make a competitive game. That was accomplished.

K sometimes will send one starting player to the bench for a rest during a game, but not put in that player's supposed replacement. He'll often just put in the next best player off the bench . . . whoever he thinks can best impact the game. Sometimes that means taking out a forward and putting in a true center-type big man, or going smaller another ball-handling guard.

If it helps to imagine such-and-such player starting for whichever team as a signal that the other player is the "backup," then I guess that's fine. But it doesn't mean that when the starter goes out, that player is a given coming in the game. Some starting positions may have backups that log very few minutes this year, more in line with bench warmer than a "second wave" of players. K goes smaller and bigger depending on competition, but also depending on what the most potent lineup would be with a certain starter off the floor.

Kedsy
10-21-2017, 11:53 AM
As to your Zoubek /O'Connell comparison... if O'Connell brings to Duke what Zoubek did, I'll take that any day from any player.

What did Zoubek bring, as a freshman? I think as an upperclassman, Alex is going to be a big contributor. But not this year.


Recall Freshman Grayson Allen who seemed to be buried on the bench until the end of the year.

Well, he was buried on the bench until Rasheed Sulaimon got kicked off the team. Hopefully nothing like that happens this season.


I was not able to see the scrimmage. Anyone have thoughts on Trent? I am putting the cart way, way before the horse but I keep thinking of Westbrook. Not comaring the two but thinking of a trend line. Blue colored lens, I suppose.

Gary turned it on in the second half of the scrimmage and looked really good. He is nowhere near and will never be anywhere near Westbrook. Plus he's a completely different type of player.


Gary also did a really good job guarding Grayson and making him work hard -- his defense may have fatigued Grayson into some crucial misses and poor passes towards the end of the game. It wasn't quite the shutdown job that Matt did on Grayson in last year's CTC, but it was very, very good defense from Gary. Hopefully he can continue these 3-and-D ways; it's exactly what we need from him, and it's exactly what NBA scouts want to see from him.

I agree with this. I was pleasantly surprised with Gary's D.


Plus, moving out of the ionosphere, there is a strong list of potential players: last night's leading scorer, Alex O'Connell; the leading rebounder, Jack White; only sub to play 20 minutes, Jordan Goldwire. Yes, I know, Alex is likely to be glued to the bench this year. But then there is savvy, really savvy big man, Big Vrank who may demand minutes..

I am getting dizzy with the (unlikely) prospects of a deep rotation. It is time to put the cap back on the tube of glue.

Yeah, sniffing that stuff'll kill ya. There simply aren't enough non-garbage-time minutes for any of those guys this season.

Also, Alex was the 3rd-leading scorer on his team and tied for 5th overall (with Jordan Goldwire). Jack was the leading rebounder on his team but 2nd overall (to Javin). And Jordan G wasn't really a sub in this game -- he started and he seemed to me to be the only guy K wanted guarding Trevon. Which says something in and of itself, I suppose, but what it says to me is if we play against a really tough PG then Trevon is going to get a ton of minutes. Doesn't suggest to me that Jordan G is going to play at all.

Troublemaker
10-21-2017, 12:00 PM
I feel bad about the development of Bolden. I really am rooting for that kid. He came to Duke with such promise. Javin was always a developing player. Would be great to see them play together next year. Looks like most of the team will be under 6'8". Will need their size. I've now officially destroyed this thread looking to 2018. I thought Bolden would be the starter at the 5 this summer. Looks like Trent will definitely start. If Bolden becomes the 7th guy, I just wonder how it affects his development psychologically.

Why do you feel bad about Bolden's development? By all accounts, he's had a really good summer. We're playing a defensive system that highlights one of his strengths in hedging, and at this point, he's just got to be poised when he gets the ball on offense, which he showed signs of improving in CTC. There was a jump hook and high-low dunk, yes, but just as importantly, there was a kickout to Grayson for an open 3 when he was doubled. That's the sort of poise and court awareness that we're looking for from him.


If Bolden becomes the 7th guy, I just wonder how it affects his development psychologically.

I don't see why it would affect him as opposed to being the 6th man. He's got to bring energy and play well off the bench -- for his own good and for the team's -- regardless of whether he edges out Javin in minutes or vice versa. I just think Javin has a chance to be slightly higher in minutes because he can sub at two positions, SF and PF, while Marques can only be a center.

Kedsy
10-21-2017, 12:13 PM
Trevon's easily the biggest concern on the team right now. Not that everyone else is perfect, but he's the one with the biggest role who is struggling right now.

At the same time, it seems to me the solution is pretty simple. He needs to stop trying to make the spectacular play and just make the simple, solid plays that will be available due to his handle, athleticism, and court vision. The game-winning play was perfect, for example. He drove, collapsed the defense, and found O'Connell for the open corner 3.

We should never see Trevon alley-ooping to himself again in that situation, although I enjoyed it. But, even prior to that, there was another play where he blew a 3-on-0 break where he could've just dunked the ball himself or made the simple pass to Bagley or Wendell for the dunk. Instead he went for the alley-oop that was slightly off-target and Wendell missed the layup. Team White got the rebound and scored going the other way.

DUKE FRESHMAN PGs WHO WERE TEAM'S ONLY REAL BALLHANDLER


Player G Assists Tos A/to topg
Bobby Hurley 38 288 166 1.73 4.37
Jason Williams 34 220 139 1.58 4.09
Greg Paulus 36 187 118 1.58 3.28
Derryck Thornton 36 93 59 1.58 1.64
Jeff Capel 34 106 68 1.56 2.00
Johnny Dawkins 28 134 103 1.30 3.68
Frank Jackson 36 61 49 1.24 1.36


Note: Jeff Capel, Derryck Thornton, and Frank Jackson might not really belong here, since they weren't necessarily the team's primary ballhandler.

DUKE FRESHMAN PGs WHO SHARED BACKCOURT WITH ANOTHER PG


Player G Assists Tos A/to topg
Tyus Jones 39 217 76 2.86 1.95
Chris Duhon 39 174 61 2.85 1.56
Tommy Amaker 34 163 101 1.61 2.97
Will Avery 35 87 60 1.45 1.71


Note: Will Avery was really more of a backup than a second PG.

My point is that every Duke freshman PG except two turned the ball over a lot and had subpar A/to ratios. And the two who didn't were playing next to older PGs who could rein them in and/or take some of the pressure off them. I'd expect Trevon's numbers to look fairly similar to Jason Williams's freshman numbers. And if he could be freshman Jason Williams, I wouldn't really classify that as a "concern."

kAzE
10-21-2017, 12:27 PM
I think Javin might actually become the 6th man ahead of Marques, and I'm higher on Marques' play than most. Javin's a really nice defensive and rebounding weapon out there, and he's versatile defensively, too.

Too hard to tell given that we've only seen a couple of practices, but I agree Javin looked very nice last night. Extremely raw offensively, but an absolute beast on the boards and around the rim defensively. He's certainly quicker and more athletic than Marques, and was a far better rebounder/defender in this particular game. If that holds true going forward, I could also see him being ahead of Marques in the rotation. I'm not totally sure what Marques brings to the table over Javin other than just sheer size at this point. And even then, we've got plenty of size already, so Javin seems to have more to offer to the team. I DON'T think either of them will be jacking up many 3s in real games . . . Maybe Javin, I know he was a decent shooter in high school, but that 2nd 3 he took was pretty bad . . .

But with that said, I think they will play about even minutes until one or the other makes a case for more playing time. They will both be involved.

As for Alex, I love what I saw last night, but I think he's at least a year away from being a rotation player. Very nice potential as a 4 year guard though. I think Jordan Goldwire is ahead of both Alex and Jordan Tucker right now in the rotation, although probably none of those 3 will see more than a few spot minutes in serious competition. Goldwire gives me a little bit of a Tyler Thornton vibe with his nice spot up shooting and defense. We're going to play HUGE this year.

Gooch
10-21-2017, 01:55 PM
Saw so much potential last night. I agree with the earlier poster that the keys will be blending everyoneís talents and managing healthy egos to create a team. The number and types of athletes we have this year is like never before. Glad we have the GOAT and excellent assistants on our sideline.

Iím trying to keep my excitement in check after last year, but it is not really working...

BD80
10-21-2017, 02:05 PM
... perhaps the most impressive thing about McConnell is that his name is O'Connell.

Not once he dons his mask and cape ... Mac Daddy O'Connell = McConnell!


The Irish all look the same.

— O’PK

Common mistake. Actually, some look drunk, some look passed out ...

What do you call an Irishman passed out on your back porch? Paddy O'Furniture.

subzero02
10-21-2017, 02:35 PM
Alex was impressive. He has a little Kennard in him where he can create his own shot. His outside shot is no where near Lukeís consistency. I was watching Alex warm up. His shot is smooth and looks good. I must have watched him take 30 three point shots from three spots on the floor. They were all hitting the rim but he made only seven and never two in a row. Coach K in his presser basically said he will be on the bench this year reading through the lines but said he had a very good week and very good scrimmage. Coach said he was tough. It will have to be a Grayson moment that gets him on the floor. Speaking about the floor I loved how he dove after the ball ďGraysonĒ in the scrimmage and caused the turnover.

How will he have a "Grayson" moment if he isn't already on the floor?

BD80
10-21-2017, 03:00 PM
I find myself falling into the "player A is like all-time Duke great B" trap.

That is totally unfair to this team in particular. This team has a fascinating mix of incredible individuals.

Which raises an interesting challenge for the coach I believe is best able to handle it.

Grayson is definitely the Alpha: the senior leader, POY candidate, championship ring ...

Or is he?

Duvall is the quarterback, the vocal leader, talking in the huddles during timeouts, often talking over Coach Scheyer. He has been the leader of every team he has been on at every level.

Bagley is a transcendent talent. He is accustomed to being the focal point of the entire game, for both teams, the press, the fans. He is "the man," and always has been.

Trent could easily become my favorite player. Maximum intensity, shows it on the floor. Will rise to any and EVERY challenge. He'll want the ball in crunch time.

Carter has been such a dominating presence in his career, it is possible that he has never faced anyone as strong or stronger,

Even O'Connell, who looks like he could be in middle school, has that "just give me the damn ball" confidence.

This team is a bit like a special ops unit, a group of Alphas that are trained to work as a team. Any one of the team would be a good leader, but Captain Krzyzewski will have this group working together better and better as the year progresses.

cato
10-21-2017, 04:42 PM
Recall Freshman Grayson Allen who seemed to be buried on the bench until the end of the year. O'Connell will have his moments - I saw a skilled player who can shoot the ball and they seem to find a way.

Senator, I served with Grayson Allen. I knew Grayson Allen. Grayson Allen was a friend of mine. Senator, Alex OíConnell is no Grayson Allen.

gwlaw99
10-21-2017, 04:55 PM
post-CTC press conference live right now: https://www.facebook.com/DukeMBB/videos/10155905541314456/

Anyway to watch this on youtube. I dont want to install flash.

DevilFalcon
10-21-2017, 07:09 PM
Actually, Marques did attempt a three.



He was, but perhaps the most impressive thing about McConnell is that his name is O'Connell.


Oh burn! You got me good! Smartdonkey.... Such a welcoming group on this board sometimes.

OldPhiKap
10-21-2017, 07:28 PM
Oh burn! You got me good! Smartdonkey... Such a welcoming group on this board sometimes.

Please post more. I get more $#!+ about my posts than most. Itís not personal.

Appreciate your view of CTC!

rocketeli
10-21-2017, 07:32 PM
Let's keep racism and ethnic slurs off the boards, mmkay?


Common mistake. Actually, some look drunk, some look passed out ...

What do you call an Irishman passed out on your back porch? Paddy O'Furniture.[/QUOTE]

jimsumner
10-21-2017, 07:35 PM
Grayson Allen is this team's Alpha Dog. Not even close.

I confess I'm a bit perplexed by the sixth-man v. seventh-man discussion. The seventh man could play 10 mpg or he could play 25 mpg. Production is going to matter a lot more here than whether one is first or second off the bench.

And it does look like we'll see some lineups with three of Bagley, Carter, Bolden, DeLaurier or Vrankovic. Maybe with Allen and Trent at the guards.

Jumbo lineup.

K emphasized last night that Duke wants to shrink the court when the other team has the ball. That lineup would do it.

Now, how much Duke gives up on the other end remains TBD.

Furniture
10-21-2017, 09:05 PM
I don't think I have ever been so emotional watching a CD2C as when Grayson walked out to this.

https://mobile.twitter.com/DukeMBB/status/921578532702248961/video/1

So many emotions and he seemed so at peace and sure of himself. Full of joy and so in the moment.
A defining moment in some ways......

Newton_14
10-21-2017, 09:10 PM
Grayson Allen is this team's Alpha Dog. Not even close.

I confess I'm a bit perplexed by the sixth-man v. seventh-man discussion. The seventh man could play 10 mpg or he could play 25 mpg. Production is going to matter a lot more here than whether one is first or second off the bench.

And it does look like we'll see some lineups with three of Bagley, Carter, Bolden, DeLaurier or Vrankovic. Maybe with Allen and Trent at the guards.

Jumbo lineup.

K emphasized last night that Duke wants to shrink the court when the other team has the ball. That lineup would do it.

Now, how much Duke gives up on the other end remains TBD.

Couldn't agree more on all topics Mr. Sumner. Grayson is hands down the leader of this team and I think he will thrive in the role. That big lineup is going to be extremely big and scoring in the paint will be umm... how to put this... "difficult" for the opponents. On the surface, it looks like almost all of our bigs are showing to be really good interior defenders which has me incredibly excited! For the first time in a very long time it looks like teams will not be able to just High Pick And Roll us to death at the top of the key and score at will on us! Fingers crossed on that!

UrinalCake
10-21-2017, 09:19 PM
Duvall is the quarterback, the vocal leader, talking in the huddles during timeouts, often talking over Coach Scheyer. He has been the leader of every team he has been on at every level.

Is this something you've actually witnessed, or just something you hope will happen? Duvall seems like a pretty quiet guy to me. In one of the summer interviews, K said Duvall really needs to improve his communication. Obviously he has a world of raw skill, but I don't see him as a vocal leader right now.

MChambers
10-21-2017, 09:34 PM
I am getting dizzy with the (unlikely) prospects of a deep rotation. It is time to put the cap back on the tube of glue.

Is this the year? 10 players getting 20 minutes? It could be!

Nah. Step away from the glue, sagegrouse!

BD80
10-21-2017, 10:24 PM
Is this something you've actually witnessed, or just something you hope will happen? Duvall seems like a pretty quiet guy to me. In one of the summer interviews, K said Duvall really needs to improve his communication. Obviously he has a world of raw skill, but I don't see him as a vocal leader right now.

It was during one of the early breaks at CTC, Scheyer was talking to the team and Duvall was very animated, adding to what was being said and pointing to other players

dukefan_828
10-21-2017, 10:44 PM
Haven't seen anyone comment on him, Looked like he could compete in limited action... Grayson's healthy!!:):)

DukieInBrasil
10-21-2017, 11:19 PM
Haven't seen anyone comment on him, Looked like he could compete in limited action... Grayson's healthy!!:):)

He was thoroughly outshined by Alex. I didn't notice Jordan a whole lot during the game, he made one shot that i remember, maybe more. Alex was much more active and much more effective. I think we'll learn more about Jordan in the scrimmage games, ie i think he'll play some.

rsvman
10-21-2017, 11:38 PM
Is this the year? 10 players getting 20 minutes? It could be!

Nah. Step away from the glue, sagegrouse!

Looks like I picked a bad week to give up cocaine.

MarkD83
10-22-2017, 06:32 AM
Grayson on our big men -- from your lips to God's ears:



Let's see... Four big guys in the regular rotation. Then there are the likely starters, Grayson, Duval and Gary. Plus, moving out of the ionosphere, there is a strong list of potential players: last night's leading scorer, Alex O'Connell; the leading rebounder, Jack White; only sub to play 20 minutes, Jordan Goldwire. Yes, I know, Alex is likely to be glued to the bench this year. But then there is savvy, really savvy big man, Big Vrank who may demand minutes..

I am getting dizzy with the (unlikely) prospects of a deep rotation. It is time to put the cap back on the tube of glue.

Yes it is that wonderful time of the year where the crisp fall air and changing colors of the leaves makes us believe that change is in the air and coach k will go 12 deep

Henderson
10-22-2017, 09:04 AM
Yes it is that wonderful time of the year where the crisp fall air and changing colors of the leaves makes us believe that change is in the air and coach k will go 12 deep

In his post-game presser, Coach K offered up the number 8, then emphasized that those 8 wouldn't play equal minutes. He also talked about the fact that some players should have starter mindsets but come off the bench.

He did hint pretty broadly that Javin DeLaurier is going to play an important role, coming off the bench but with a starter's role. So that would likely mean, in no particular order:

Grayson Allen
Wendell Carter Jr.
Marvin Bagley III
Gary Trent Jr.
Trevon Duval
Marques Bolden
Javin DeLaurier
Antonio Vrankovic

If someone needs a break [*unjinx*], I'd look for Alex O'Connell and/or Jordan Goldwire to get some run. I don't know enough about Jack White's progression to venture a guess about him.

Furniture
10-22-2017, 09:12 AM
In his post-game presser, Coach K offered up the number 8, then emphasized that those 8 wouldn't play equal minutes. He also talked about the fact that some players should have starter mindsets but come off the bench.

He did hint pretty broadly that Javin DeLaurier is going to play an important role, coming off the bench but with a starter's role. So that would likely mean, in no particular order:

Grayson Allen
Wendell Carter Jr.
Marvin Bagley III
Gary Trent Jr.
Trevon Duval
Marques Bolden
Javin DeLaurier
Antonio Vrankovic

If someone needs a break [*unjinx*], I'd look for Alex O'Connell and/or Jordan Goldwire to get some run. I don't know enough about Jack White's progression to venture a guess about him.

I really hope you are correct about Vrank but I don't get that feeling. With so many bigs already I think you could be right about Goldwire or Alex breaking through. Jack might be a dark horse tŰ get minutes though since he can shoot a three or two.....

DukieInBrasil
10-22-2017, 09:25 AM
In his post-game presser, Coach K offered up the number 8, then emphasized that those 8 wouldn't play equal minutes. He also talked about the fact that some players should have starter mindsets but come off the bench.

He did hint pretty broadly that Javin DeLaurier is going to play an important role, coming off the bench but with a starter's role. So that would likely mean, in no particular order:

Grayson Allen
Wendell Carter Jr.
Marvin Bagley III
Gary Trent Jr.
Trevon Duval
Marques Bolden
Javin DeLaurier
Antonio Vrankovic

If someone needs a break [*unjinx*], I'd look for Alex O'Connell and/or Jordan Goldwire to get some run. I don't know enough about Jack White's progression to venture a guess about him.

Although i like what i've seen from Vrank so far, and think that he could have easily played more minutes so far, i think that K is unlikely to play a 5th big, more than a 4th "small". In fact his history shows he's more likely to play 5 "smalls" with 3 bigs. This year is different, clearly, but it seems that if he in fact does want to go with 8 i have to believe that it'll be a 4 bigs and 4 smalls.
Grayson, Trevon and Gary seem like sure-fire smalls, so who would be the 4th? From the single data point i've got to go on, i'd say it has to be O'Connell. Tucker wasn't nearly as impressive in the CTC, nor was Jack. Goldwire was in fact pretty impressive, but i have no idea if that performance will translate into anything other than accolades from fans.

plimnko
10-22-2017, 10:46 AM
if you missed the CTC the other night and have a few minutes

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ewMYYSpTrls

Kedsy
10-22-2017, 11:43 AM
In his post-game presser, Coach K offered up the number 8, then emphasized that those 8 wouldn't play equal minutes. He also talked about the fact that some players should have starter mindsets but come off the bench.

Antonio Vrankovic

Did he say Antonio Vrankovic would be one of the eight? Because that would shock me. If there is an eighth member of the rotation (and personally I doubt there will be, at least in the sense of an eighth player getting decent (10+? 8+?) minutes in close games after January 1), it would almost have to be a shooter.


if you missed the CTC the other night and have a few minutes

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ewMYYSpTrls

OK, that was weird. They seemed to show every single basket, except the game winning shot. Is that right, or did I just miss it?

duke74
10-22-2017, 11:49 AM
OK, that was weird. They seemed to show every single basket, except the game winning shot. Is that right, or did I just miss it?

I thought the same thing.

The next video that came up for me was the intros. Think the team needs dancing lessons. ;) Thank God they can play B-ball.

kAzE
10-22-2017, 11:57 AM
I thought the same thing.

The next video that came up for me was the intros. Think the team needs dancing lessons. ;) Thank God they can play B-ball.

The player intros were definitely the low point of Alex O'Connell's night :p

richardjackson199
10-22-2017, 11:58 AM
In his post-game presser, Coach K offered up the number 8, then emphasized that those 8 wouldn't play equal minutes. He also talked about the fact that some players should have starter mindsets but come off the bench.

He did hint pretty broadly that Javin DeLaurier is going to play an important role, coming off the bench but with a starter's role. So that would likely mean, in no particular order:

Grayson Allen
Wendell Carter Jr.
Marvin Bagley III
Gary Trent Jr.
Trevon Duval
Marques Bolden
Javin DeLaurier
Antonio Vrankovic

If someone needs a break [*unjinx*], I'd look for Alex O'Connell and/or Jordan Goldwire to get some run. I don't know enough about Jack White's progression to venture a guess about him.

Alex O'Connell is a gamer and can play! I've only seen 1 half of exhibition scrimmage, but thus far he looks to be earning a significant role. I'm not saying he will get one, but maybe he should.

Thus far (which isn't far enough to really make any conclusions, but that is no fun) I think freshman year Grayson Allen. When Sulaimon was on the team Grayson was at the end of the bench of a talented team, and for the first part of the season we never saw him. But he worked hard, and when he got in he showed he could kinda play too.

jimsumner
10-22-2017, 12:14 PM
For Vrankovic to be in the top eight, Duke would have to be playing five players 6-10 or taller in that eight-player rotation.

Duke has talked a lot about playing bigger but not that big. This scenario strains credulity.

It should be noted that in the part of CTC that actually was a game, the Blue team played walk-on Justin Robinson down the stretch in a close game, with Vrankovic on the bench.

Vrankovic played 11 minutes. Jordan Tucker was the only recruited player to play less.

And yes, I was surprised by how little Tucker played. Right now, O'Connell and White appear to be ahead of him. Which surprises me.

K suggested after the scrimmage that Goldwire might see some PT in real games.

I went into the game with the assumption that Goldwire was an Andre Buckner-analog. I came out thinking that he might be a Tyler Thornton-analog.

Don't get me wrong. I do not anticipate major minutes for Goldwire this season, maybe ever. And it should be noted that he played 20 minutes the other night without getting an assist, not a ringing endorsement for a point guard. Allen usually initiated the offense for their (white) team.

But Duval isn't going to play 40 mpg. Allen can easily handle those minutes at the point when Duval sits. But Allen is going to have a lot on his table and it might make sense to give Goldwire some time running the team and thus reducing the burden on Allen.

Jack White has escaped much mention so far. And he only scored a single point, in 14 minutes. But he also had six rebounds (more than Carter, Bagley, or Bolden), three assists, one steal, no turnovers and played solid defense at both the 3 and 4. On a team with no shortage of scorers, that kind of complementary contribution might be his ticket for seeing the floor.

At this point, Duke has a clear seven-player rotation. There are lots of early opportunities for the other five recruited players to make their case. But down the road, I suspect the 8th/9th man will be situational, depending on the opponent and the needs of the team against that opponent.

lotusland
10-22-2017, 12:27 PM
I watched the replay and it was a fun game to watch. Probably the best CTC game I've seen. In fact I may watch it again. The bigs are athletic and talented as advertised. I didn't think anyone looked lost. I'd like to see Duke try to play super fast and use 8 deep. I know, I know but I can wish right? Bagley, and Javin as well as Carter are built to run and that's probably Duval's most comfortable game. Granted our depth at guard/wing is a concern. Goldwire seems ready for 5 minutes here and there to keep guys fresh though.

Javin looks ready and I would agree that he's probably ahead of Bolden but Marques also looks improved. Selfishly I like for Vrank to take a red shirt year and play 2 more for Duke. He looks very confident and mature though lacking in athleticism compared to the other 4 bigs. It would be great to have his leadership this year plus 2 more. Those of us trying to create a Jack White bandwagon were probably most disappointed. He seemed too slow to play 3 and too small to play 4 against the other bigs.

O'Connell seemed like the guy if K is looking to the bench for a shooter but Jordan did drain one and Jack has shown he can hit from deep if left unattended.

The best thing about this off season is that it is finally over!

kAzE
10-22-2017, 12:48 PM
Wow, this thread should be a case study in recency bias. Alex looked good, but come on, it's 20 minutes of practice. I'm not trying to be a buzzkill, but I think he's at least a year away from being a contributor. He is NOT freshman Grayson Allen. Grayson was 195 pounds his freshman year. He was ready to compete from day 1. Alex is MAYBE 165 soaking wet. He's not going to be able to guard guys in the ACC with that body.

Furniture
10-22-2017, 12:51 PM
Wow, this thread should be a case study in recency bias. Alex looked good, but come on, it's 20 minutes of practice. I'm not trying to be a buzzkill, but I think he's at least a year away from being a contributor. He is NOT freshman Grayson Allen. Grayson was 195 pounds his freshman year. He was ready to compete from day 1. Alex is MAYBE 165 soaking wet. He's not going to be able to guard guys in the ACC with that body.

Sorry Kaze. You are being a buzz kill. But it's all good! 😊!

Is is there going to be a minutes competition? I say Alex gets 5 mins....

lotusland
10-22-2017, 02:19 PM
Wow, this thread should be a case study in recency bias. Alex looked good, but come on, it's 20 minutes of practice. I'm not trying to be a buzzkill, but I think he's at least a year away from being a contributor. He is NOT freshman Grayson Allen. Grayson was 195 pounds his freshman year. He was ready to compete from day 1. Alex is MAYBE 165 soaking wet. He's not going to be able to guard guys in the ACC with that body.

So who would be your shooter off the bench? Only 3 guards play all year? Maybe but , if not, we'll have to choose from less than Ideal options. I don't see Goldwire and Tucker as clearly bettter options. I think most of us agree on the first 7 guys But there will he injuries, foul trouble and the aforementioned occasional need for shooting off the bench.

kAzE
10-22-2017, 02:23 PM
So who would be your shooter off the bench? Only 3 guards play all year? Maybe but , if not, we'll have to choose from less than Ideal options. I don't see Goldwire and Tucker as clearly bettter options. I think most of us agree on the first 7 guys But there will he injuries, foul trouble and the aforementioned occasional need for shooting off the bench.

No clue, but if I had to guess, I think right now it's Goldwire. His shot looks good and he looks okay on defense. I mean, his box score was the exact same as Alex's . . . 3/6 FG, 2/4 from deep. We don't need another scorer. We need a guy who can defend on the perimeter and hit open 3s. But realistically, neither of those guys should be in the rotation. Both are outside the top 7.

I feel like I'm Kedsy or something. This sample size is microscopic. No conclusions should be drawn from this scrimmage.

Kedsy
10-22-2017, 03:23 PM
Jack White has escaped much mention so far. And he only scored a single point, in 14 minutes. But he also had six rebounds (more than Carter, Bagley, or Bolden), three assists, one steal, no turnovers and played solid defense at both the 3 and 4. On a team with no shortage of scorers, that kind of complementary contribution might be his ticket for seeing the floor.

Did you really think so? I only saw it on my computer screen, but I thought Jack looked a bit slow afoot on defense.


I'd like to see Duke try to play super fast and use 8 deep.

I think Duke could play super fast and only go 7 deep. I don't think adding an 8th guy in the rotation would make a difference in how quick a pace we could manage.


So who would be your shooter off the bench? Only 3 guards play all year?

I think we really might primarily go with a forward at "small forward," instead of a guard. If we do employ a shooter off the bench, I don't think he's going to play regular minutes.


I feel like I'm Kedsy or something.

It comes with age. ;)

COYS
10-22-2017, 10:01 PM
This was a thoroughly enjoyable CTC scrimmage. I was encouraged by basically everyoneís play. And I think this thread has already covered most of it. But I think I might have had a slightly more optimistic take on Trevonís game (not that anyone was being overly critical or anything). One of the things that kept Trevon from getting into the paint was some almost perfect hedging from Marques. I thought that was a great sign for our defensive potential. Also, while Trevon had some turnovers (one of which was clearly an attempt to get his teammates involved when it would have been easy for him to throw down a slam), he also showed some real skill with a few nice passes and, perhaps best of all, his one man fast-break early in the game when he turned on the jets and passed everyone for an easy layup. That is something we havenít gotten out of our primary point guard in a long while.

I was also impressed by Wendellís passing. He made some quick reads when getting the ball in or near the post that were impressive and bode well for a partnership with Marvin and Marques.

Javin looked great and his athleticism made him unstoppable on the glass. He would be a nightmare for a college wing player to box out because heís quick, tall, and ridiculously bouncy. He played the three and D role to perfection. If rumors of his improved three point shooting are true (and he was a good shooter from range in high school), he really might be able to carve out a significant role.

I was also generally impressed with the mobility of Marvin, Marques, and Wendell. I knew Marvin was agile, but Wendell looks like heís in great shape and moved well on the court. And Marques, who showed promise as a good hedger last season, looked even better hedging on screens on the perimeter during CTC.

I canít wait to watch the exhibitions

MrPoon
10-22-2017, 11:25 PM
This team is deep enough that they are running hard, competitive practices like we haven't had in awhile.
Duval is going to amaze this year.
Any team with GA, Duval and Bag III is going to win a lot of games. Trent's toughness really flashed for me. He was really vocal late in timeouts. I loved that. He adds a chip that we have needed in past years.

Lots of fun. While I can't ball like these young men, nice to see I dance about as well as some!

DevilFalcon
10-22-2017, 11:29 PM
I'm looking forward to the fast pace and transition game that we really haven't had since Kyrie. It was good to hear Coach mention that in his presser. That and hopefully being dominant on the boards.

dukelifer
10-23-2017, 07:12 AM
Wow, this thread should be a case study in recency bias. Alex looked good, but come on, it's 20 minutes of practice. I'm not trying to be a buzzkill, but I think he's at least a year away from being a contributor. He is NOT freshman Grayson Allen. Grayson was 195 pounds his freshman year. He was ready to compete from day 1. Alex is MAYBE 165 soaking wet. He's not going to be able to guard guys in the ACC with that body.

Physically there is no comparison. But basketball is also a mental game. Alex showed his competitiveness and shooting stroke. A year or so in the weight room will help him significantly. Seth Curry was pretty slight and turned out to be a very good player.

Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15
10-23-2017, 08:45 AM
I thought the same thing.

The next video that came up for me was the intros. Think the team needs dancing lessons. ;) Thank God they can play B-ball.

Does this mean we have to stop making fun of "Dancin'" Danny Green?

OldPhiKap
10-23-2017, 08:53 AM
Does this mean we have to stop making fun of "Dancin'" Danny Green?

No. Feel free to continue!

FerryFor50
10-23-2017, 10:27 AM
K suggested after the scrimmage that Goldwire might see some PT in real games.

I went into the game with the assumption that Goldwire was an Andre Buckner-analog. I came out thinking that he might be a Tyler Thornton-analog.

Don't get me wrong. I do not anticipate major minutes for Goldwire this season, maybe ever. And it should be noted that he played 20 minutes the other night without getting an assist, not a ringing endorsement for a point guard. Allen usually initiated the offense for their (white) team.


I came away with the same impression of Goldwire. K loves those underdog/bulldog type players. The ones that just play defense and hit the occasional open shot.

It's worth noting that TT only averaged 1.9 APG for his career. Matt Jones averaged 1.4. They both ran the point at times.

Goldwire might be that defensive bulldog that K loves.

kAzE
10-23-2017, 10:29 AM
Physically there is no comparison. But basketball is also a mental game. Alex showed his competitiveness and shooting stroke. A year or so in the weight room will help him significantly. Seth Curry was pretty slight and turned out to be a very good player.

Oh for sure. Alex has some good potential. He probably will never be the physical presence that Grayson is, but with a year or 2 of seasoning, he could turn out to be a very nice scorer. I'm just not convinced it will happen this year. I like him and Jordan Goldwire. Both of them project to be solid role players down the line.

richardjackson199
10-23-2017, 11:48 AM
Guards don't have to be Lebron or Westbrook physically to be effective.

Tyus Jones was pretty special in college. Steph Curry does ok. Of course I'm not comparing O'Connell to them, just citing examples of smaller guys who can ball at the highest level.

I was comparing O'Connell's potential this year to Grayson's his freshman year, just pointing out that the guy at the very end of the bench was capable of much more. I expect most to disagree given that Grayson finished that year as an integral catalyst for the Natty. But in CTC O'Connell looked much better than advertised. I saw more in 20 minutes from him than I saw in an entire season from some other players folks assume will play most of our bench minutes. Yep, very small sample size. But impressive moxy was on display.

Do I expect O'Connell to be the next Grayson Allen? Probably not. Grayson is good enough to win the Wooden this year if he optimizes potential. But I'm very pleased that I think O'Connell and Goldwire are underrated and better than advertised. As 2015 National Championship game showed, you never know when you might needs guys off the bench to step up and give you a spark. This team is young, but they have more than 5 capable players. And that is crucial to win it all.

Thank God it's basketball season!

ricks68
10-23-2017, 11:48 AM
Oh for sure. Alex has some good potential. He probably will never be the physical presence that Grayson is, but with a year or 2 of seasoning, he could turn out to be a very nice scorer. I'm just not convinced it will happen this year. I like him and Jordan Goldwire. Both of them project to be solid role players down the line.

Maybe Alex is the guy K puts in, along with Grayson, to take the last 3 point shot needed to win or tie the game. Think about that one.

ricks

AtlDuke72
10-23-2017, 11:52 AM
[QUOTE=ricks68;1008314]Here’s #6: Alex O’ Connell is likely to be the next Blue Devil everyone loves to hate.


Why would you put this in the article on the front page? I for one have heard enough about the "hate". Promoting one of our new players for that just escapes me.

ChillinDuke
10-23-2017, 12:19 PM
Most have already brought up the things that I would have. So I'll focus on the end of the bench situation.

Re: rotation, the one thing I think we are missing are "glue guys." The frontcourt looks clearly manned by Bagley, Bolden, and Carter. The backcourt looks clearly manned by Allen, Duval, and Trent. Those guys are all, more or less, clearly defined skill sets. Maybe Trent becomes a bit of a glue guy? But at this stage, he's probably more of a shooter/offensive wing.

So #7, and possibly #8. Who is it? Javin fits the bill quite easily. He isn't likely a bruiser down low, nor is he a shooter. He appears quick enough to guard the perimeter, at least decently enough. He's certainly tall enough to guard college 4s/5s. Hops? He's got that. He made a 3 (and bombed another), so he at least has potential to develop a perimeter game, although probably not this year. To me, we need him this year in a glue roll. Get boards, interchange on D, cause disruption, and don't require the rock on offense, although be able to if the situation arises. Add that to the fact that Duke has been promoting him more than the other guys, and I think he's #7.

#8? I'd prefer another glue guy, frankly. Although Trevon/Gary's ability to hit a decent clip from deep could change my thinking here. If Trevon can hit 33% and Gary 35%+, I'll take a glue guy #8. If they are down in the low-30s, I'll probably take a shooter. Granted, this is the #8 guy, better known as the 7.5th guy. So we're not talking major minutes here.

If 7.5 = Glue, I like Jack White in that roll. I think he can give us some positional flexibility on defense, decent rebounding, general court awareness, and not be a total liability in any singular facet. If he can hit any semblance of a consistent 3-point shot, that's gravy in all regards.

If 7.5 = Shooter, I'd give the nod to Jordan Tucker. I'll go out on a limb with that one, for the following reasons.

Vrank - clearly not a shooter and total logjam up front if you consider he has legitimately 4 guys in front of him that are >= 6'9", most of which are high-level players.
O'Connell - sure, he had a nice scrimmage. But that kid does not have the physique to play in high-level basketball games right now. He may play great in a game against Northwest-Most or in a Duke scrimmage designed for publicity/pep rally/no injuries, but I think he'd get eaten alive against a major D-1 team.
Goldwire - didn't show me enough. Sure, he played a decent game in a scrimmage designed to not get anyone hurt. But when the games count, and the whole bag of tricks is in play for every player, I didn't see anything from him that evidences he'll solidly keep pace.
J Rob - not gonna happen.

So who else but Jordan Tucker as 7.5-man Shooter? I don't know that he necessarily showed anything in the Blue/White Game that gave me confidence in him. But neither did the other guys, and his only real competition for the role of Backup Shooter is Jack White, Alex O'Connell, and Jordan G. I have no idea if White is a better shooter, Alex O'Connell is not physically ready, and neither is Jordan G.

$0.02. Let's play!!!

- Chillin

kAzE
10-23-2017, 01:12 PM
I'm actually fairly confident at this point in predicting that Javin DeLaurier will be the 6th man, and be the first guy off the bench (sorry Bolden). He's probably the glue guy Chillin is looking for. I just don't think Marques brings anything to the table that Wendell doesn't already provide. He also is limited to playing center, which makes him an awkward fit next to Wendell.

Javin on the other hand, can definitely play power forward, and possibly get some minutes at the 3, but I think he would be the 4 in lineups with Marvin and one of the centers. Javin is just an athletic freak with a strong motor, and can really impact the game with his rebounding and interior defense. I can definitely see him playing 20 or more minutes a game.

Marvin can absolutely play on the perimeter. He was handling the rock in the open court like a guard, and I'm very comfortable predicting that he will spend time playing "small" forward in our big lineups. I'm not as sold on Javin as a 3.

richardjackson199
10-23-2017, 01:20 PM
I'm actually fairly confident at this point in predicting that Javin DeLaurier will be the 6th man, and be the first guy off the bench (sorry Bolden). He's probably the glue guy Chillin is looking for. I just don't think Marques brings anything to the table that Wendell doesn't already provide. He also is limited to playing center, which makes him an awkward fit next to Wendell.

Javin on the other hand, can definitely play power forward, and possibly get some minutes at the 3, but I think he would be the 4 in lineups with Marvin and one of the centers. Javin is just an athletic freak with a strong motor, and can really impact the game with his rebounding and interior defense. I can definitely see him playing 20 or more minutes a game.

Marvin can absolutely play on the perimeter. He was handling the rock in the open court like a guard, and I'm very comfortable predicting that he will spend time playing "small" forward in our big lineups. I'm not as sold on Javin as a 3.

I'm fairly confident Bolden will play more minutes than Javin. Gotta love minutes debates! :cool:

kAzE
10-23-2017, 01:28 PM
I'm fairly confident Bolden will play more minutes than Javin. Gotta love minutes debates! :cool:

Sure, it's very possible, We're all guessing at this point. Both Javin and Marques are obviously very talented big men. I just think Javin is a more natural fit with our presumed starting bigs (Wendell and Marvin) than Marques.

richardjackson199
10-23-2017, 01:42 PM
Sure, it's very possible, We're all guessing at this point. Both Javin and Marques are obviously very talented big men. I just think Javin is a more natural fit with our presumed starting bigs (Wendell and Marvin) than Marques.

Gotcha. I see Wendell best at the 4. I agree Bolden is a 5. Thus I love the idea of the huge lineup with Bagley at the 3.

I really want to see Bolden have a breakout year. I'm not sure or confident that will happen. But I really want him to.

Bolden having a break-out year and getting drafted in the first round is infinitely better for our program than being a bust and transferring. Yes, Captain Obviously stuff, but both outcomes could happen or anything in between.

I still think and hope Bolden has a much higher ceiling than Javin. I may be very wrong there - I haven't seen as much as I'd like from either thus far. I hope both reach whatever their ceiling is, because if they do it will be a fun year.

kAzE
10-23-2017, 02:02 PM
Gotcha. I see Wendell best at the 4. I agree Bolden is a 5. Thus I love the idea of the huge lineup with Bagley at the 3.

I really want to see Bolden have a breakout year. I'm not sure or confident that will happen. But I really want him to.

Bolden having a break-out year and getting drafted in the first round is infinitely better for our program than being a bust and transferring. Yes, Captain Obviously stuff, but both outcomes could happen or anything in between.

I still think and hope Bolden has a much higher ceiling than Javin. I may be very wrong there - I haven't seen as much as I'd like from either thus far. I hope both reach whatever their ceiling is, because if they do it will be a fun year.

Absolutely. I would love nothing more than for Bolden to live up to the hype. The only thing I disagree with you on is that Carter would be best as a 4. He and Bolden seem to be more of the plodding type of big men who live in the paint, so I'd have a very hard time picturing them both on the floor at the same time. Marques may be more talented than Javin and maybe a better NBA prospect, but I just think the fit with the rest of the roster is going to play a role in his minutes. I think he will have the Harry Giles role from last year, basically the backup center.

Javin on the other hand is like the energizer bunny: agile, explosive, and able to cover a lot of ground very quickly on defense and running the floor in transition. Our transition game is going to be a part of the offense this year with Trevon manning to the point, so the prospect of a 6'10" Javin sprinting the length of the court for an easy fast break slam sounds like something we would try to incorporate into the gameplan.

whereinthehellami
10-23-2017, 02:58 PM
Fun scrimmage, random thoughts:

I agree with the announcers (Spatola) that the big guys aren't being sped up and seem confident. The thought of teams having to defend everyone without doubling the bigs makes me giddy. And Carter could finish in the top 3 in assists, I really like him as a passer.

DeLaurier seems poised to be the glue guy and fit in where needed. I'm curious to see him at the 3 with two other bigs and see how it goes. He could take his smaller defender inside and Bagley could take his bigger defender outside for mismatches. Lots of options. Javin seems to be becoming a team leader. High effort guy who collects stats. The outside shot needs some work though, not natural looking, very stiff.

I was impressed with Trent, especially as the scrimmage went on. Didn't really force much and was involved in all aspects of the game. Had a nice put-back knifing through the lane. We didn't really see his floater, which he has as part of a decent mid-range game. The announcers mentioned that the coaches love him, very coachable and a willing and vocal communicator. He liked the spotlight which you love to see from your freshman.

Duval made some impressive plays and some WTH ones. Tough, fine line to tote for the coaches. Keeping him confident while pulling back on some of the poor decisions. We need him to be solid and engaged.

O'Connell and Goldwire were impressive, mostly due to the fact that they did not play like freshman. The bright lights, the crowd, and they both made multiple mature plays. That is encouraging. You never know when and if they will be needed.

FerryFor50
10-23-2017, 03:47 PM
I'm fairly confident Bolden will play more minutes than Javin. Gotta love minutes debates! :cool:

I think Bolden also plays more minutes than Javin, mostly because Javin probably won't get better at not fouling this season.

BlueDevil85
10-23-2017, 04:26 PM
This was a thoroughly enjoyable CTC scrimmage. I was encouraged by basically everyoneís play. And I think this thread has already covered most of it. But I think I might have had a slightly more optimistic take on Trevonís game (not that anyone was being overly critical or anything). One of the things that kept Trevon from getting into the paint was some almost perfect hedging from Marques. I thought that was a great sign for our defensive potential. Also, while Trevon had some turnovers (one of which was clearly an attempt to get his teammates involved when it would have been easy for him to throw down a slam), he also showed some real skill with a few nice passes and, perhaps best of all, his one man fast-break early in the game when he turned on the jets and passed everyone for an easy layup. That is something we havenít gotten out of our primary point guard in a long while.

I was also impressed by Wendellís passing. He made some quick reads when getting the ball in or near the post that were impressive and bode well for a partnership with Marvin and Marques.

Javin looked great and his athleticism made him unstoppable on the glass. He would be a nightmare for a college wing player to box out because heís quick, tall, and ridiculously bouncy. He played the three and D role to perfection. If rumors of his improved three point shooting are true (and he was a good shooter from range in high school), he really might be able to carve out a significant role.

I was also generally impressed with the mobility of Marvin, Marques, and Wendell. I knew Marvin was agile, but Wendell looks like heís in great shape and moved well on the court. And Marques, who showed promise as a good hedger last season, looked even better hedging on screens on the perimeter during CTC.

I canít wait to watch the exhibitions

I agree - and as the game progressed it seemed to me that Trevon had the ability to make the court seem shorter - a couple of quick strides and he was in the key on the offensive end.

Billy Dat
10-23-2017, 05:51 PM
It's interesting that if you track the guess-the-minutes thread versus the chatter in this thread, we spend so much more time debating the guys near the bottom of the minutes projections than those near the top. We worry more about who may be a potential 8th man than how we see Bagley and Carter Jr. co-existing.

Kedsy
10-23-2017, 08:47 PM
It's interesting that if you track the guess-the-minutes thread versus the chatter in this thread, we spend so much more time debating the guys near the bottom of the minutes projections than those near the top. We worry more about who may be a potential 8th man than how we see Bagley and Carter Jr. co-existing.

Well, they're going to co-exist. There's no chance that they don't both play a lot, so it's not much of a debate. Their minute-count is just a questioning of how much freshman-foulhappiness they exhibit (or don't). Down at the bottom of the rotation, it's a question of who's going to play at all and who won't.

MrPoon
10-23-2017, 10:55 PM
Well, they're going to co-exist. There's no chance that they don't both play a lot, so it's not much of a debate. Their minute-count is just a questioning of how much freshman-foulhappiness they exhibit (or don't). Down at the bottom of the rotation, it's a question of who's going to play at all and who won't.

The foul count on such a young team will be interesting. Certainly depth at the 4 & 5 plus rumors of more zone may help. When Duval picked up the cheapie on GA durning the scrimmage it got me thinking how his foul count may be the most important as the season goes on.

Billy Dat
10-24-2017, 09:32 AM
Well, they're going to co-exist. There's no chance that they don't both play a lot, so it's not much of a debate. Their minute-count is just a questioning of how much freshman-foulhappiness they exhibit (or don't). Down at the bottom of the rotation, it's a question of who's going to play at all and who won't.

Fair enough...and I guess my response to that debate is, "What difference does it make?", but therein lies the appeal/repel nature of message boards.

Focusing on Duval for a moment, his off the backboard, self alley-oop was the highlight play of the night. Listening to another Duke site podcast, the commentators said they looked at K who either seemed neutral or slightly agitated. Combine that with this post-game quote:

"He is a heck of an athlete, but he has to be more careful with the ball. He has to play with the athleticism and the verve where it is not a one for one, like I get a good pass and I get a turnover. He has the ability to do it and actually the last practice we had was a great practice in that regard, with assists and turnovers. He has a chance to be an outstanding, but he has to protect the ball more.Ē

That's about as critical as K usually gets in a press conference about one of his players. That same podcast was debating how Trevon should be handled this year...is he a kid who needs to be allowed to "show out" and make flamboyant mistakes because that's how he can be the best version of himself or will he be micro-managed and potentially lose his mojo?

COYS
10-24-2017, 09:58 AM
That's about as critical as K usually gets in a press conference about one of his players. That same podcast was debating how Trevon should be handled this year...is he a kid who needs to be allowed to "show out" and make flamboyant mistakes because that's how he can be the best version of himself or will he be micro-managed and potentially lose his mojo?

I feel like Coach K is usually really good at splitting the difference. We've had flamboyant players that Coach K has usually handled behind closed doors (perhaps the most well known: the famous Bobby Hurley supercut of his various faces). And he's done an excellent job with players like JJ, Quinn, and others getting them to toe the line between letting their emotions fuel their play and staying focused on the court. He'll just have to shrink Trevon's development down to fit a single season. But there is already precedent for that. Austin Rivers had a generally poor preseason tourney in Hawaii and K actually sat him during crunch time against Kansas (a game in which Austin's replacement, Tyler Thornton, hit a huge three). But Austin handled it well and went on to have an impressive freshmen season (postseason results, notwithstanding). I think that, in general, K has an excellent read on his players. He doesn't usually get angry when guys like Grayson attempt some questionable threes when they're feeling it. He didn't even get all that angry a few years back when Justise had a monster dunk, spent too much time celebrating, and let his man get an easy layup on the other end. I bet K will find a way to split the difference. Even his public comments about Trevon read to me as "Tre, you're so important to the team, we need you to be your best self." He didn't need to do that publicly with JJ or Quinn in their freshmen seasons because they weren't needed to be leaders just yet. It's different with Trevon.

Troublemaker
10-24-2017, 10:47 AM
Fair enough...and I guess my response to that debate is, "What difference does it make?", but therein lies the appeal/repel nature of message boards.

Focusing on Duval for a moment, his off the backboard, self alley-oop was the highlight play of the night. Listening to another Duke site podcast, the commentators said they looked at K who either seemed neutral or slightly agitated. Combine that with this post-game quote:

"He is a heck of an athlete, but he has to be more careful with the ball. He has to play with the athleticism and the verve where it is not a one for one, like I get a good pass and I get a turnover. He has the ability to do it and actually the last practice we had was a great practice in that regard, with assists and turnovers. He has a chance to be an outstanding, but he has to protect the ball more.”

That's about as critical as K usually gets in a press conference about one of his players. That same podcast was debating how Trevon should be handled this year...is he a kid who needs to be allowed to "show out" and make flamboyant mistakes because that's how he can be the best version of himself or will he be micro-managed and potentially lose his mojo?

Yeah, you make a good point. Ultimately, while it's fun to discuss, whether Coach K plays an 8th man and whom that 8th man is really aren't going to change this team's fortunes. Whether Trevon can "make the right plays, make the simple plays" on a consistent basis will. The quote "make the right plays, make the simple plays" comes from Trevon in a post-CTC interview (courtesy of The Devil's Den) where Trevon is asked about what Coach K is preaching to him: https://youtu.be/4E42jSmkL5I?t=1m25s

Hopefully Trevon gets it. That self alley-oop should never be attempted again in a game, for example.

English
10-24-2017, 11:12 AM
Yeah, you make a good point. Ultimately, while it's fun to discuss, whether Coach K plays an 8th man and whom that 8th man is really aren't going to change this team's fortunes. Whether Trevon can "make the right plays, make the simple plays" on a consistent basis will. The quote "make the right plays, make the simple plays" comes from Trevon in a post-CTC interview (courtesy of The Devil's Den) where Trevon is asked about what Coach K is preaching to him: https://youtu.be/4E42jSmkL5I?t=1m25s

Hopefully Trevon gets it. That self alley-oop should never be attempted again in a game, for example.

I agree, and I'd be shocked if it was attempted by anyone on the team in an actual game situation. That said, CTC is certainly NOT a game--it's essentially a pep rally intended to introduce the team to its fans, so a dunk like that serves the purpose exceptionally well. It's surprising to hear, even subjectively, that K would be agitated by Tre doing that during the scrimmage. Call me skeptical, although, I wouldn't be at all surprised if K made some comment to him privately afterwards, like "that was some leap on that alley-oop, but so we're clear, that's the last time you do that in CIS." Those comments from K could very easily be more in reference to the other sloppy turnovers from Duval during the scrimmage, and from what he's seen during team practices.

Apropos of nothing, GSW rookie Jordan Bell actually did successfully go off the backboard self-alley-oop in last night's game. It got his teammates all kinds of fired up too. The highlight has gone viral.

UrinalCake
10-24-2017, 11:13 AM
Regarding the dunk contest - if memory serves, the last time we did this was in 2014 which was Grayson's freshman year. He was the fan favorite to win it, and probably the whole reason they held the contest in the first place, as he had just won the McD AA dunk contest and had a reputation for being a high flier with a mix tape to back it up. He started off with some awesome dunks, but then in the final round failed to complete a dunk, thus giving the victory to Marshall Plumlee somewhat by default.

Which is kind of exactly what happened to Duval this year. Will history repeat itself? I'm calling it now: Trevon Duval will win the 2020 C2C dunk contest! All while beginning his campaign to win his fourth National Title 8-)

kAzE
10-24-2017, 11:16 AM
It's interesting that if you track the guess-the-minutes thread versus the chatter in this thread, we spend so much more time debating the guys near the bottom of the minutes projections than those near the top. We worry more about who may be a potential 8th man than how we see Bagley and Carter Jr. co-existing.

I actually think they are a great fit together, and will form one of, if not the most dominant front court in the country. Marvin would be a great fit with anyone. He's so versatile and skilled everywhere on the court, that it doesn't matter who he's playing with, he's going to find a way to contribute and play off of other players. He can bang down low, post up and be a menace on the glass, or attack from the perimeter and handle the ball in transition. Announcers often talk about the "queen on the chessboard." Bagley fits that description. It's a luxury to have a guy with such an insanely diverse set of skills.

That's why I don't think there's a debate. Bagley is just too good, and he fits with everyone. The debate I think we SHOULD be having is whether or not Bolden/DeLaurier can play with Carter. All 3 of those guys are primarily interior players, so I will be watching closely to see how they work out together.

Troublemaker
10-24-2017, 11:20 AM
I agree, and I'd be shocked if it was attempted by anyone on the team in an actual game situation. That said, CTC is certainly NOT a game--it's essentially a pep rally intended to introduce the team to its fans, so a dunk like that serves the purpose exceptionally well. It's surprising to hear, even subjectively, that K would be agitated by Tre doing that during the scrimmage. Call me skeptical, although, I wouldn't be at all surprised if K made some comment to him privately afterwards, like "that was some leap on that alley-oop, but so we're clear, that's the last time you do that in CIS." Those comments from K could very easily be more in reference to the other sloppy turnovers from Duval during the scrimmage, and from what he's seen during team practices.

Apropos of nothing, GSW rookie Jordan Bell actually did successfully go off the backboard self-alley-oop in last night's game. It got his teammates all kinds of fired up too. The highlight has gone viral.

Yeah, it definitely wasn't just the self alley-oop. He blew a 3-on-0 break once by throwing an alley-oop instead of just laying it in. I think he went 1-on-3 on the fastbreak once instead of pulling the ball out and turned it over. Those decisions are just as bad. If Trevon can gain a little bit of self-control, he's going to be great for us this season.

UrinalCake
10-24-2017, 11:39 AM
Interesting tweet from Jeff Goodman today:

"Multiple scouts in attendance felt that Trevon Duval might not be a lock first-rounder. Struggles to make shots and run the team."

sagegrouse
10-24-2017, 11:43 AM
Interesting tweet from Jeff Goodman today:

"Multiple scouts in attendance felt that Trevon Duval might not be a lock first-rounder. Struggles to make shots and run the team."

Classic "good news..., bad news...?"

kAzE
10-24-2017, 12:15 PM
Interesting tweet from Jeff Goodman today:

"Multiple scouts in attendance felt that Trevon Duval might not be a lock first-rounder. Struggles to make shots and run the team."

That's preposterous . . . how can anyone make conclusions like that after watching a 18 year old kid play 20 minutes of basketball? I mean, sure, if he plays all season like he did the other night, then it's a valid observation, but 20 minutes? Of practice basketball? Come on.

IrishDevil
10-24-2017, 12:22 PM
That's preposterous . . . how can anyone make conclusions like that after watching a 18 year old kid play 20 minutes of basketball? I mean, sure, if he plays all season like he did the other night, then it's a valid observation, but 20 minutes? Of practice basketball? Come on.

We talkin' 'bout practice?

richardjackson199
10-24-2017, 12:40 PM
Yeah, it definitely wasn't just the self alley-oop. He blew a 3-on-0 break once by throwing an alley-oop instead of just laying it in. I think he went 1-on-3 on the fastbreak once instead of pulling the ball out and turned it over. Those decisions are just as bad. If Trevon can gain a little bit of self-control, he's going to be great for us this season.

I'll voice what certainly will be a blasphemous opinion. I loved the self alley-oop - it was the highlight of the whole event.

Now for the blasphemous part, I'd even love it if he did it in a real game in Cameron under the right circumstances. Because it would bring the house down, and in Cameron that gives us huge momentum. If we're down 1 with 2 minutes to go in the Dean Dome, of course you don't try that. Risk outweighs benefit. But if you're down 10 to UNC in Cameron with 10 minutes to go, it sounds like everybody here will disagree with me, but I say do it. That would ignite Cameron, and could spark the kind of 17 point run that wins us the game. In that way, the momentum makes the shot essentially worth more than 2 points. The benefit of igniting Cameron outweighs the risk that you miss the shot. Duval didn't miss the shot, and he tried that because he knows he has the athleticism to hit it 9 times out of 10. A layup off the backboard gives us 2 points, but maybe we don't come back.

College basketball is not nuclear warfare, it's entertainment. I say don't take it too seriously and keep it fun. Dunks like that are part of what makes men's college basketball fun and a billion dollar industry.

The mistake dunk of the night wasn't that one IMO (which on this post is less than 0.01). I think the mistake dunk of the night was Grayson's last dunk in the slam dunk contest. And it won him first place in the dunk contest. But the risk outweighed the benefit. Maybe Grayson knows he pulls that off 499 times out of 500. But the risk of that 1/500 chance that he slips on a wet spot on the floor and knocks down the cheerleader was not worth the risk. Not for him this year.

If that happened, even if the cheerleader just fell down with no injury, no concussion, and no bruise, you know what would happen next. Grayson would be front center on every talking head sports show for the next month, and you wouldn't even be able to find out which head coach the FBI just indicted for paying players because it would be buried on the 3rd page. Seth Greenberg would be calling for Grayson to be kicked off the team and expelled from the university. They would have biomechanics experts on Sportscenter analyzing video explaining why it clearly showed Grayson's intent was to trip the cheerleader during the dunk. Jemele Hill would get herself fired and rehired by calling for Grayson to get the gas chamber on twitter. Grayson of course did nothing wrong. But he just needs to be very, very careful. A 1 in 500 risk is too high because of the lethal outcome it could have for his reputation - fair or not. Every second of everything he does this year will be analyzed in slow motion looking for the next viral video.

Trouble and others are right. Duval needs to focus on running the team, making easy assists, minimizing turnovers, making open jump shots, and captaining us to be the best team in the country by making everyone around him better.

Duval has plenty of time to develop that, and improve his draft stock to lottery. And that would be the best thing for Duke. We want our projected OAD guys to be lottery. Keeping them for 3-4 years like UNC is good for wins, but not good for recruiting.

But Duval has some special athleticism, can do some special things, and I say turn him loose a little in the right circumstances. Let him and the fans have a little fun in the process. If we got Zion would we want him never doing special dunks in a real game because he might miss them and blow 2 points? Sometimes, lay it in (down 1 with 5 seconds to go in the National Championship game, etc.). But under the right circumstances, go viral.

<0.01 cents

richardjackson199
10-24-2017, 12:51 PM
Regarding the dunk contest - if memory serves, the last time we did this was in 2014 which was Grayson's freshman year. He was the fan favorite to win it, and probably the whole reason they held the contest in the first place, as he had just won the McD AA dunk contest and had a reputation for being a high flier with a mix tape to back it up. He started off with some awesome dunks, but then in the final round failed to complete a dunk, thus giving the victory to Marshall Plumlee somewhat by default.

Which is kind of exactly what happened to Duval this year. Will history repeat itself? I'm calling it now: Trevon Duval will win the 2020 C2C dunk contest! All while beginning his campaign to win his fourth National Title 8-)

I loved the dunk contest in front of Zion. I almost wish we'd had him participate as a special guest entry. Or made him a judge.

Sure would be cool to see him, Reddish, and Javin go at it next year. Or see Zion do it in a real game and bring Cameron's house down. Ahh dreams...

English
10-24-2017, 01:21 PM
I'll voice what certainly will be a blasphemous opinion. I loved the self alley-oop - it was the highlight of the whole event.

Now for the blasphemous part, I'd even love it if he did it in a real game in Cameron under the right circumstances. Because it would bring the house down, and in Cameron that gives us huge momentum. If we're down 1 with 2 minutes to go in the Dean Dome, of course you don't try that. Risk outweighs benefit. But if you're down 10 to UNC in Cameron with 10 minutes to go, it sounds like everybody here will disagree with me, but I say do it. That would ignite Cameron, and could spark the kind of 17 point run that wins us the game. In that way, the momentum makes the shot essentially worth more than 2 points. The benefit of igniting Cameron outweighs the risk that you miss the shot. Duval didn't miss the shot, and he tried that because he knows he has the athleticism to hit it 9 times out of 10. A layup off the backboard gives us 2 points, but maybe we don't come back.

What's the blasphemous part, again?

uh_no
10-24-2017, 01:40 PM
I agree, and I'd be shocked if it was attempted by anyone on the team in an actual game situation. That said, CTC is certainly NOT a game--it's essentially a pep rally intended to introduce the team to its fans, so a dunk like that serves the purpose exceptionally well. It's surprising to hear, even subjectively, that K would be agitated by Tre doing that during the scrimmage. Call me skeptical, although, I wouldn't be at all surprised if K made some comment to him privately afterwards, like "that was some leap on that alley-oop, but so we're clear, that's the last time you do that in CIS." Those comments from K could very easily be more in reference to the other sloppy turnovers from Duval during the scrimmage, and from what he's seen during team practices.

Apropos of nothing, GSW rookie Jordan Bell actually did successfully go off the backboard self-alley-oop in last night's game. It got his teammates all kinds of fired up too. The highlight has gone viral.

sometimes it can be useful: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s7fp7fpQ8n0

ChillinDuke
10-24-2017, 01:55 PM
That's preposterous . . . how can anyone make conclusions like that after watching a 18 year old kid play 20 minutes of basketball? I mean, sure, if he plays all season like he did the other night, then it's a valid observation, but 20 minutes? Of practice basketball? Come on.

Easy. Jeff Goodman needs a new tweet every 20 minutes.

- Chillin

Billy Dat
10-24-2017, 02:14 PM
Easy. Jeff Goodman needs a new tweet every 20 minutes.

- Chillin

Indeed, Goodman also has a penchant for hyperbole, which is certainly rewarded in today's ME-dia landscape.

Billy Dat
10-24-2017, 02:16 PM
Indeed, Goodman also has a penchant for hyperbole, which is certainly rewarded in today's ME-dia landscape.

Of course, as soon as I typed that, he unleashed another one that I hope is understated

@GoodmanESPN
One NBA executive that has seen both Kentucky and Duke told me that he felt like the Blue Devils were 10 or so points better as of today.

flyingdutchdevil
10-24-2017, 02:33 PM
Of course, as soon as I typed that, he unleashed another one that I hope is understated

@GoodmanESPN
One NBA executive that has seen both Kentucky and Duke told me that he felt like the Blue Devils were 10 or so points better as of today.

It's called the Grayson Allen effect.

MrPoon
10-24-2017, 02:40 PM
Interesting tweet from Jeff Goodman today:

"Multiple scouts in attendance felt that Trevon Duval might not be a lock first-rounder. Struggles to make shots and run the team."

Because this is a family forum, I'll leave my language about that tweet to this...Fake news.
I'll take any wager on Duval going lottery. Any. The NBA loves two things, young basketball players with outlandish athleticism. Check and check. With K working on him, the NBA will get a kid ready to contribute lots of ways. Just one of the dumbest things I've heard in a long long time. Stupid. Did Goodman add that the "scouts" were telling each other that so they wouldn't beat them to Duval? For our analytic posters, when was the last time the top ranked PG fall to the second round injury free? In the moder era?
Just dumb. When do we hear that Goodman's account was hacked by Calipari?

Are these the same scouts that said OKC was wrong to draft Westbrook so high? I'm not saying he's Westbrook but he wasn't a great shooter early ... Dumb comment.

flyingdutchdevil
10-24-2017, 02:44 PM
Because this is a family forum, I'll leave my language about that tweet to this...Fake news.
I'll take any wager on Duval going lottery. Any. The NBA loves two things, young basketball players with outlandish athleticism. Check and check. With K working on him, the NBA will get a kid ready to contribute lots of ways. Just one of the dumbest things I've heard in a long long time. Stupid. Did Goodman add that the "scouts" were telling each other that so they wouldn't beat them to Duval? For our analytic posters, when was the last time the top ranked PG fall to the second round injury free? In the moder era?
Just dumb. When do we hear that Goodman's account was hacked by Calipari?

Are these the same scouts that said OKC was wrong to draft Westbrook so high? I'm not saying he's Westbrook but he wasn't a great shooter early ... Dumb comment.

The NBA loves 3pt range. No check. If this was 5 years ago, then I agree Duval is a no brainer for the lottery. Now? Muuuuuuch tougher. But not out of the question. De'aaron Fox was high lottery and he has a broken shot with 25% shooting in college. However, he was able to score from anywhere inside of the 3pt line.

If Duval can show strong distribution skills, excellent penetration skills, and a passion for defending, he'll be fine (even with a broken shot).

Kedsy
10-24-2017, 02:50 PM
For our analytic posters, when was the last time the top ranked PG fall to the second round injury free? In the moder era?

Does two years ago count as the "moder era"? Isaiah Briscoe was the top PG in the 2015 high school class. He was not projected as a first-round draft pick after his freshman year, so he played his sophomore year then left school and went undrafted.

Two years before that, Andrew Harrison was the top PG in the 2013 class. He was not projected as a first-round pick after his freshman year, so he played his sophomore year then left school and was drafted in the middle of the 2nd round (44th overall).

So, it happened twice in the past four classes before this one.

BandAlum83
10-24-2017, 03:00 PM
Because this is a family forum, I'll leave my language about that tweet to this...Fake news.
I'll take any wager on Duval going lottery. Any. The NBA loves two things, young basketball players with outlandish athleticism. Check and check. With K working on him, the NBA will get a kid ready to contribute lots of ways. Just one of the dumbest things I've heard in a long long time. Stupid. Did Goodman add that the "scouts" were telling each other that so they wouldn't beat them to Duval? For our analytic posters, when was the last time the top ranked PG fall to the second round injury free? In the moder era?
Just dumb. When do we hear that Goodman's account was hacked by Calipari?

Are these the same scouts that said OKC was wrong to draft Westbrook so high? I'm not saying he's Westbrook but he wasn't a great shooter early ... Dumb comment.

So are you saying Jeff Goodman made it up? That no scouts said this? Jeff Goodman just makes $%#& up!? (This would be Fake News)

Are you saying the scouts said it, but didn't mean it? This would be an accurate news account by Jeff Goodman of what he was told, but the scouts may be trying to misdirect. It can be debated as to why they would want to misdirect before he is even seen in any of 40 games he may play in this year (NOT Fake news)


Are you saying the scouts don't know what they are talking about? Jeff Goodman reported it in his tweet none-the-less? (Not Fake News)

Are you saying it's not news worthy? That it was said and reported accurately, but isn't newsworthy? (Not Fake News)

An awful lot of people are throwing around the term "Fake News" these days in completely inappropriate ways; so much so that a recent poll indicated that 46% of the public believes that reputable print news sources (newspapers) believe that stories about our president are simply made up out of whole cloth.

Poll: 46 percent think media make up stories about Trump (http://www.politico.com/story/2017/10/18/trump-media-fake-news-poll-243884)


Nearly half of voters, 46 percent, believe the news media fabricate news stories about President Donald Trump and his administration, according to a new POLITICO/Morning Consult poll.

Just 37 percent of voters think the media do not fabricate stories, the poll shows, while the remaining 17 percent are undecided.

THAT is an alarming statistic when a free press is reduced to the legitimacy of news from websites on the fringes of the internet. Or worse yet: when the free press is less believed than that outlandish email forwarded from your crazy uncle that is easily discredited on one of many fact checking websites such as snopes.com.

CDu
10-24-2017, 03:11 PM
Does two years ago count as the "moder era"? Isaiah Briscoe was the top PG in the 2015 high school class. He was not projected as a first-round draft pick after his freshman year, so he played his sophomore year then left school and went undrafted.

Two years before that, Andrew Harrison was the top PG in the 2013 class. He was not projected as a first-round pick after his freshman year, so he played his sophomore year then left school and was drafted in the middle of the 2nd round (44th overall).

So, it happened twice in the past four classes before this one.

Josh Selby wasn't #1 PG overall, but he was still a top-6 recruit just like Duval was (he just happened to be in the same class as Kyrie Irving and Brandon Knight). Unlike the two you mentioned, he decided to go pro anyway, even after an awful freshman year. He fell to the second round.

Now, I don't think Duval will suffer the same fate. But as you said, it's not unheard of for a top PG recruit to fail to achieve expectations.

dukelifer
10-24-2017, 03:12 PM
Because this is a family forum, I'll leave my language about that tweet to this...Fake news.
I'll take any wager on Duval going lottery. Any. The NBA loves two things, young basketball players with outlandish athleticism. Check and check. With K working on him, the NBA will get a kid ready to contribute lots of ways. Just one of the dumbest things I've heard in a long long time. Stupid. Did Goodman add that the "scouts" were telling each other that so they wouldn't beat them to Duval? For our analytic posters, when was the last time the top ranked PG fall to the second round injury free? In the moder era?
Just dumb. When do we hear that Goodman's account was hacked by Calipari?

Are these the same scouts that said OKC was wrong to draft Westbrook so high? I'm not saying he's Westbrook but he wasn't a great shooter early ... Dumb comment.
Hmmm - top ranked pg Greg Paulus would like to talk to you

kAzE
10-24-2017, 03:16 PM
Josh Selby wasn't #1 PG overall, but he was still a top-6 recruit just like Duval was (he just happened to be in the same class as Kyrie Irving and Brandon Knight). Unlike the two you mentioned, he decided to go pro anyway, even after an awful freshman year. He fell to the second round.

Now, I don't think Duval will suffer the same fate. But as you said, it's not unheard of for a top PG recruit to fail to achieve expectations.

Ahh, this brings back fond memories of a heated bar debate I had with a stranger over who would ultimately be the better player between Josh Selby and Kyrie Irving. I only wish I could have cashed in on that bet somehow.

Kedsy
10-24-2017, 03:19 PM
Hmmm - top ranked pg Greg Paulus would like to talk to you

Well, except Paulus was the 3rd-ranked PG in his class (behind Lou Williams and Mario Chalmers). Of course, both of those other guys fell into the second round of the draft, so there's that.

CDu
10-24-2017, 03:27 PM
Well, except Paulus was the 3rd-ranked PG in his class (behind Lou Williams and Mario Chalmers). Of course, both of those other guys fell into the second round of the draft, so there's that.

Heck, it's pretty standard actually.

2005: Williams and Chalmers fall (and it took Chalmers years of college to get there)
2006: Lawson took 3 years, wound up a mid/late 1st rounder. Would have been 2nd round at best as a freshman.
2010: the aforementioned Selby
2011: Teague went very late in the first round (and stunk in the NBA)
2012: Purvis didn't get drafted (bad year for PGs)
2013: Harrison
2015: Briscoe

Not uncommon at all.

LasVegas
10-24-2017, 03:32 PM
The news that Duval could slip into the 2nd round isnít shocking to me and Iím surprised others are blown away by it. We have a very small sample size to go off of but he wasnít particularly impressive in the Instagram scrimmage or countdown to craziness. The verdict is still out on this one and it could decide the season.

BandAlum83
10-24-2017, 03:37 PM
Heck, it's pretty standard actually.

2005: Williams and Chalmers fall (and it took Chalmers years of college to get there)
2006: Lawson took 3 years, wound up a mid/late 1st rounder. Would have been 2nd round at best as a freshman.
2010: the aforementioned Selby
2011: Teague went very late in the first round (and stunk in the NBA)
2012: Purvis didn't get drafted (bad year for PGs)
2013: Harrison
2015: Briscoe

Not uncommon at all.

That's Marquis, the younger brother of Jeff, just to be clear. Jeff was a 2015 NBA all star.

CDu
10-24-2017, 03:41 PM
The news that Duval could slip into the 2nd round isnít shocking to me and Iím surprised others are blown away by it. We have a very small sample size to go off of but he wasnít particularly impressive in the Instagram scrimmage or countdown to craziness. The verdict is still out on this one and it could decide the season.

I don't feel the same at all about either the first scrimmage or the CTC. In the first scrimmage, he was carrying the blue squad which had literally no other legit scoring threats (if he'd played on the white squad, it might have been a shutout). In the CTC, he was clearly just playing to the crowd and trying for highlight plays, which accounted for at least 2 of his turnovers. I don't think either really says much about him.

The more I see of him, the more I see a Derrick Rose type of player: can't shoot at all, but ridiculously good run/jump athlete with great size/strength for his position. I think he's going to do just fine in real games. Imagine him pushing tempo with Bagley and Allen alongside him.

I agree that his abilities are pretty critical to the season. I'm just not really worried about whether he will perform well or not; I think he has too much talent, both in himself and around him.

Troublemaker
10-24-2017, 03:45 PM
The news that Duval could slip into the 2nd round isn’t shocking to me and I’m surprised others are blown away by it. We have a very small sample size to go off of but he wasn’t particularly impressive in the Instagram scrimmage or countdown to craziness. The verdict is still out on this one and it could decide the season.

I mean, the verdict is still out on everyone on the team. We haven't even played the first exhibition game yet. :-) For all we know, Trevon dishes 10 assists to 2 turnovers on Friday, and this chatter about his struggles quiets down substantially.

(Also, if it doesn't happen that quickly, we've seen early struggles from freshmen before. Brandon Ingram was very pedestrian through November [7 games] and then started to turn it on in December. If Trevon has a similar timetable, I'd ultimately be very happy).

dukelifer
10-24-2017, 03:46 PM
Well, except Paulus was the 3rd-ranked PG in his class (behind Lou Williams and Mario Chalmers). Of course, both of those other guys fell into the second round of the draft, so there's that.

In some places Williams and Chalmers were listed as shooting guards but as you say - all three went in the 2nd but that was not a great class. Top ranked McRoberts also fell to the second- althetic Big with limited shooting skill.

Billy Dat
10-24-2017, 03:55 PM
I'm just not really worried about whether he will perform well or not; I think he has too much talent, both in himself and around him.

I agree, and I also think that K is too savvy to allow him to fail. Unless the kid is a complete ego-maniac who routinely rejects K's commands, it behooves K for Trevon to be really good. Not only because it is in the best interest of the team, but it is also in the best interest of our current recruiting bonanza.

Chris Spatola, who has as much inside access to the program as anyone, was gushing about him on the broadcast which I think is a good sign. His comments about the self alley-oop were also very funny, something along the lines of how fortunate he was to be that talented and that he made the shot because missing it would have had consequences.

LasVegas
10-24-2017, 04:02 PM
I don't feel the same at all about either the first scrimmage or the CTC. In the first scrimmage, he was carrying the blue squad which had literally no other legit scoring threats (if he'd played on the white squad, it might have been a shutout). In the CTC, he was clearly just playing to the crowd and trying for highlight plays, which accounted for at least 2 of his turnovers. I don't think either really says much about him.

The more I see of him, the more I see a Derrick Rose type of player: can't shoot at all, but ridiculously good run/jump athlete with great size/strength for his position. I think he's going to do just fine in real games. Imagine him pushing tempo with Bagley and Allen alongside him.

I agree that his abilities are pretty critical to the season. I'm just not really worried about whether he will perform well or not; I think he has too much talent, both in himself and around him.

I have no doubt he will be good. I just think he needs to be elite in order for Duke to achieve the ultimate goal. If he can run the team and dish out assists while keeping the TOs to a min and play really good D, that will probably do it. I donít think we particularly need his shooting to come through but he needs to be great in other aspects. Iím more worried than other posters about him so maybe Iím on the wrong side of it which Iím used to because Iím married.

kAzE
10-24-2017, 04:06 PM
Heck, it's pretty standard actually.

2005: Williams and Chalmers fall (and it took Chalmers years of college to get there)
2006: Lawson took 3 years, wound up a mid/late 1st rounder. Would have been 2nd round at best as a freshman.
2010: the aforementioned Selby
2011: Teague went very late in the first round (and stunk in the NBA)
2012: Purvis didn't get drafted (bad year for PGs)
2013: Harrison
2015: Briscoe

Not uncommon at all.

It's definitely not uncommon for highly rated point guards to stay in school a bit longer or not get drafted as high as people would assume. Point guard skills (decision making, feel for the game) are hard to measure in young kids, and it's difficult to evaluate them (similar to quarterbacks in football) without knowing what they look like in a pro-style system playing with other talented guys.

That being said, Trevon Duval has all the measurables to succeed in the NBA. He's one of the fastest, strongest, and most explosive guards to come out of high school recently. He's certainly regarded as having more potential from a physical standpoint coming out of high school than any of the guys on that list.

Another thing Tre has going for him is that he has a reputation for being a pass-first guy, which is good thing when you can't shoot. I won't go as far as guaranteeing Trevon gets drafted in the lottery, but I think first round is almost a lock. Even if he's terrible, he'll still only be 19 years old at the time of the draft, with immense physical talent. I think most teams would be willing to take him based on that alone.

kAzE
10-24-2017, 04:20 PM
Also, I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but I'm starting to get the feeling Javin DeLaurier is not going to be around here for 4 years. He's a future pro, no question about it.

Enjoy him while you can, folks.

Troublemaker
10-24-2017, 04:38 PM
Also, I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but I'm starting to get the feeling Javin DeLaurier is not going to be around here for 4 years. He's a future pro, no question about it.

Enjoy him while you can, folks.

That's mostly great news if it's true, though. We've had a lot of question marks about this current team's depth, and if Javin can become a great 6th or 7th man, that would be a huge relief. And then looking to next year, we're going to have an extremely young team again in need of leadership. If Javin can become a great junior captain and starter on that team, leading freshmen like TreJones, Reddish, and Barrett to great heights, I'll be happy for him if he gets drafted after next season.

At the same time, let's see him play a few games this season first. Like you, I'm willing to believe the hype on Javin at this point, but let's see him play.

camion
10-24-2017, 04:40 PM
Also, I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but I'm starting to get the feeling Javin DeLaurier is not going to be around here for 4 years. He's a future pro, no question about it.

Enjoy him while you can, folks.

Javin is just too big and too athletic. I don't think even Ol' Roy could hide him for four years.

kAzE
10-24-2017, 05:00 PM
That's mostly great news if it's true, though. We've had a lot of question marks about this current team's depth, and if Javin can become a great 6th or 7th man, that would be a huge relief. And then looking to next year, we're going to have an extremely young team again in need of leadership. If Javin can become a great junior captain and starter on that team, leading freshmen like TreJones, Reddish, and Barrett to great heights, I'll be happy for him if he gets drafted after next season.

At the same time, let's see him play a few games this season first. Like you, I'm willing to believe the hype on Javin at this point, but let's see him play.

You're right. It is good news, if he does live up to that billing. I just hope you're right about him staying 1 more year after this year. He's a role player at best on this team, but very likely a centerpiece and captain next year if he stays. The front court situation for 2018-19 doesn't look great at the moment, and it would be a lot worse minus Javin.

jv001
10-24-2017, 05:15 PM
I don't feel the same at all about either the first scrimmage or the CTC. In the first scrimmage, he was carrying the blue squad which had literally no other legit scoring threats (if he'd played on the white squad, it might have been a shutout). In the CTC, he was clearly just playing to the crowd and trying for highlight plays, which accounted for at least 2 of his turnovers. I don't think either really says much about him.

The more I see of him, the more I see a Derrick Rose type of player: can't shoot at all, but ridiculously good run/jump athlete with great size/strength for his position. I think he's going to do just fine in real games. Imagine him pushing tempo with Bagley and Allen alongside him.

I agree that his abilities are pretty critical to the season. I'm just not really worried about whether he will perform well or not; I think he has too much talent, both in himself and around him.

Part of your post made me think of Dennis Smith(NCSU). Was Dennis considered a good perimeter shooter entering college? He was not bad against us. Since I have not seen Trevon's shot, I can't make a comment one way or the other. Is his outside shot similar to JJ or Matt Jones, or neither? I know I'm getting anxious to see our guys in a meaningful game. GoDuke!

proelitedota
10-24-2017, 05:59 PM
If there is a player that K should pull a Roy on, it should be Jav.

jimsumner
10-24-2017, 06:46 PM
I'm confused. Wasn't DeLaurier the guy who was going to transfer because Duke kept recruiting over him?

Now, after 85 mop-up minutes as a freshman and an intra-squad game, he's going to be going early to the NBA?

Curious.

Troublemaker
10-24-2017, 07:00 PM
I have no doubt he will be good. I just think he needs to be elite in order for Duke to achieve the ultimate goal. If he can run the team and dish out assists while keeping the TOs to a min and play really good D, that will probably do it. I don’t think we particularly need his shooting to come through but he needs to be great in other aspects. I’m more worried than other posters about him so maybe I’m on the wrong side of it which I’m used to because I’m married.

I don't think we'll need Trevon to be elite. We need him to protect the ball much better than he has been, play good defense, and run a very good fastbreak. In the halfcourt, I think we're going to rely a lot on off-ball screening for Grayson to shoot threes, and we'll also postup a lot. Trevon's not going to be responsible for a lot of creating in the halfcourt, imo; if he had lesser teammates, he would be. But his domain will be the fastbreak, where he'll hopefully terrify opponents. But other than that one area, I don't think we're counting on him to be elite. I think we're counting on Grayson and Marvin to be elite and make All-American teams.

OldPhiKap
10-24-2017, 07:06 PM
I'm confused. Wasn't DeLaurier the guy who was going to transfer because Duke kept recruiting over him?

Now, after 85 mop-up minutes as a freshman and an intra-squad game, he's going to be going early to the NBA?

Curious.

Life moves fast on the inter webs, Jim.

CDu
10-24-2017, 07:17 PM
Part of your post made me think of Dennis Smith(NCSU). Was Dennis considered a good perimeter shooter entering college? He was not bad against us. Since I have not seen Trevon's shot, I can't make a comment one way or the other. Is his outside shot similar to JJ or Matt Jones, or neither? I know I'm getting anxious to see our guys in a meaningful game. GoDuke!

I would say “neither.” His outside shot is the main weakness in his game. I chose Rose for a reason: the physical characteristics are very similar. As is the relatively poor outside shot. And the tendency to turn it over a bit.