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DukieInBrasil
10-19-2017, 05:02 PM
http://bleacherreport.com/articles/2739626-the-man-behind-mjs-first-nike-deal-says-lamelo-bbb-can-revolutionize-the-ncaa?utm_source=facebook.com&utm_medium=referral&utm_campaign=programming-national

Bleacher Report (so take it for what that's worth) claims that the Big Baller shoe company could challenge the NCAA's domain in terms of amateur eligibility. I hadn't heard, but i guess it's inevitable, that LaMelo who is still in HS has his own shoe and that by signing with his dad's company could be ruled ineligible by the NCAA.
Is this for real? or just another way for the limelight seeking father to get himself in the news again? I don't know. This could all be moot if the shoe company goes bankrupt before the kid makes it to college.

SilkyJ
10-19-2017, 05:06 PM
http://bleacherreport.com/articles/2739626-the-man-behind-mjs-first-nike-deal-says-lamelo-bbb-can-revolutionize-the-ncaa?utm_source=facebook.com&utm_medium=referral&utm_campaign=programming-national

Bleacher Report (so take it for what that's worth) claims that the Big Baller shoe company could challenge the NCAA's domain in terms of amateur eligibility. I hadn't heard, but i guess it's inevitable, that LaMelo who is still in HS has his own shoe and that by signing with his dad's company could be ruled ineligible by the NCAA.
Is this for real? or just another way for the limelight seeking father to get himself in the news again? I don't know. This could all be moot if the shoe company goes bankrupt before the kid makes it to college.

I don't think its moot if he takes money/endorsements/etc. Shoe companies are allowed to sponsor teams and whatnot, but if even if the company goes under in 6 months he could lose his amateur status the second he starts getting paid and taking endorsement money (I think...I'm sure swood and others will chime in here).

jv001
10-19-2017, 05:11 PM
They could always hire the unCheats lawyers. GoDuke!

plimnko
10-19-2017, 05:56 PM
who cares? the ncaa proved last friday they have no testicles.

CameronBlue
10-19-2017, 06:03 PM
who cares? the ncaa proved last friday they have no testicles.

Hmmm....tempting.

UrinalCake
10-19-2017, 07:00 PM
I don't think its moot if he takes money/endorsements/etc. Shoe companies are allowed to sponsor teams and whatnot, but if even if the company goes under in 6 months he could lose his amateur status the second he starts getting paid and taking endorsement money (I think...I'm sure swood and others will chime in here).

Could be a gray area if his father owns the shoe company and also runs the aau team. So I guess he'd be paying himself, and the kid wouldn't technically be receiving money directly?

For the record, Marvin Bagley's father also coaches an AAU team, and has undoubtedly received plenty of sponsorship money from shoe companies. As K said in his press conference, these kids are a business from the time they're in high school.

Duke95
10-19-2017, 07:39 PM
They'd have a very good case against the NCAA.

I don't have a problem with what LaVar is doing. He's doing this to help his kids. More power to him.

BD80
10-20-2017, 05:35 AM
They'd have a very good case against the NCAA.

I don't have a problem with what LaVar is doing. He's doing this to help his kids. More power to him.

Seems to me LaVar is doing all this for LaVar.

The hype isn't really doing his kids much of a favor:

https://www.cbssports.com/nba/news/patrick-beverley-reportedly-taunts-lonzo-ball-after-shutting-down-rookie/

Duke95
10-20-2017, 10:11 AM
Seems to me LaVar is doing all this for LaVar.

The hype isn't really doing his kids much of a favor:

https://www.cbssports.com/nba/news/patrick-beverley-reportedly-taunts-lonzo-ball-after-shutting-down-rookie/

An NBA 1st team all-star defender shutting down a rookie who would be a sophomore in college really says absolutely nothing.
Lonzo's name is all over the place. Front page everywhere. His kids have their own sneakers, which receive free marketing from the media. He's playing this extremely well.

UrinalCake
10-20-2017, 10:21 AM
Looks like LaVarr has shot back at Beverly with some trash talk of his own.

http://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/21086902/lavar-ball-fires-back-patrick-beverley-presumed-shot-lonzo-ball

He's doing whatever he can to get the family's name in the media, get people talking about him. And it's working. It reminds me of when Howard Stern first came on the air. Everyone talked about how offensive he was and how much they hated hearing about him, yet those same people listened to him.

Is it hurting his sons' careers to have a father with such a loud mouth? Well, Lonzo just got drafted #2, probably a few spots higher than he deserved, and was made the face of the Lakers franchise. The middle kid has a scholarship to UCLA even though he's not very good, and the youngest kid has eight trillion instagram followers as a 16 year old. So they're doing okay.

BD80
10-20-2017, 12:28 PM
Looks like LaVarr has shot back at Beverly with some trash talk of his own.

http://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/21086902/lavar-ball-fires-back-patrick-beverley-presumed-shot-lonzo-ball

He's doing whatever he can to get the family's name in the media, get people talking about him. And it's working. It reminds me of when Howard Stern first came on the air. Everyone talked about how offensive he was and how much they hated hearing about him, yet those same people listened to him.

Is it hurting his sons' careers to have a father with such a loud mouth? Well, Lonzo just got drafted #2, probably a few spots higher than he deserved, and was made the face of the Lakers franchise. The middle kid has a scholarship to UCLA even though he's not very good, and the youngest kid has eight trillion instagram followers as a 16 year old. So they're doing okay.

LaVarr's mouth is writing checks his sons might find hard to cash.

The "shoe company" is entirely bogus, how many have been sold?

It could easily be argued that the sons would be exactly where they are without LaVar's self-promotion, including the middle kid getting a scholly to entice the youngest to sign on.

Duke95
10-20-2017, 12:52 PM
LaVarr's mouth is writing checks his sons might find hard to cash.

The "shoe company" is entirely bogus, how many have been sold?

It could easily be argued that the sons would be exactly where they are without LaVar's self-promotion, including the middle kid getting a scholly to entice the youngest to sign on.

Lonzo's cashing checks just fine. Right now, his kids are in a great position to be very successful in life. Hard to find any fault with his parenting at this point based on the evidence. I think some people just have trouble with the fact that he's outspoken.

DukieInBrasil
10-20-2017, 01:00 PM
Lonzo's cashing checks just fine. Right now, his kids are in a great position to be very successful in life. Hard to find any fault with his parenting at this point based on the evidence. I think some people just have trouble with the fact that he's outspoken.

some might say a bald faced liar. but whatevs

Duke95
10-20-2017, 01:23 PM
some might say a bald faced liar. but whatevs

Yeah, I don't think the guy really cares what those people say.

I have no problem with what he's doing. Hasn't hurt anyone, his kids are successful, and they stay out of trouble. He's doing something right.

UrinalCake
10-20-2017, 01:49 PM
It could easily be argued that the sons would be exactly where they are without LaVar's self-promotion, including the middle kid getting a scholly to entice the youngest to sign on.

True, but it could also be argued that Patrick Beverly would have worked just as hard defending Lonzo even without his dad running his mouth.

DukieInBrasil
10-20-2017, 02:41 PM
Yeah, I don't think the guy really cares what those people say.

I have no problem with what he's doing. Hasn't hurt anyone, his kids are successful, and they stay out of trouble. He's doing something right.

honestly, i don't either. I find him irritating and self-serving, but thems the shakes these days. I've never heard a single negative thing from or about Lonzo or any of the others, so you're right, he's doing something right.

PackMan97
10-20-2017, 03:05 PM
True, but it could also be argued that Patrick Beverly would have worked just as hard defending Lonzo even without his dad running his mouth.

True dat.

What all-star defensive stopper is not going to want to shut down the #2 pick in the draft? Boggles the mind that Lonzo's dad has anything to do with it.

slower
10-28-2017, 02:48 PM
Yeah, I don't think the guy really cares what those people say.

Sure, to people like this, ANY press is good press.

53n206
10-28-2017, 04:24 PM
Sure, to people like this, ANY press is good press.

A friend of mine once told me that, in business and over a period of time, the only bad press is your obituary.

El_Diablo
10-29-2017, 09:46 AM
Kobe weighs in with some support but stresses the need for a quality product:

https://clutchpoints.com/lakers-news-kobe-bryant-talks-big-baller-brand/

weezie
10-29-2017, 09:59 AM
Pssst, hey Kobe, nobody cares.

El_Diablo
10-29-2017, 10:04 AM
Pssst, hey Kobe, nobody cares.

I mean, the interviewer asked him about it. He gave a pretty thoughtful response, stressing the need to execute (as opposed to just market it) and obsess over every detail to be able to put out a quality product that will survive against the big shoe companies.

DangerDevil
11-07-2017, 03:05 PM
Yikes, LiAngelo and two of his UCLA teammates have been arrested for alleged shoplifting during the team's trip to China.

http://www.espn.com/mens-college-basketball/story/_/id/21331147/ucla-players-liangelo-ball-cody-riley-jalen-hill-arrested-china-shoplifting-charges

Can someone explain to me how this fits into LaVar's master plan. I haven't been able to understand the Big Baller marketing strategy from the beginning.

elvis14
11-07-2017, 03:11 PM
Yeah, I don't think the guy really cares what those people say.

I have no problem with what he's doing. Hasn't hurt anyone, his kids are successful, and they stay out of trouble. He's doing something right.

I think he's a complete and total joke. I think he has turned his sons into jokes. Making $$ doesn't mean you've done it right, it means you made $$ and there's still a difference. There are lots of people, who will never support his kids because he's such a jackI'm a real wanker for saying this.I'm a real wanker for saying this.I'm a real wanker for saying this.I'm a real wanker for saying this.I'm a real wanker for saying this..

moonpie23
11-07-2017, 03:39 PM
LeVar is getting ready to see how small his sphere of influence is.......shoplifting isn't that serious, but the process of working through that little offense could be sticky......and long...

the Chinese authorities would welcome the opportunity to be tough on visiting americans....especially, athletes...

Henderson
11-07-2017, 03:53 PM
Under Chinese law, can a shoplifter be sentenced to work in a factory for (say) 30 days stitching together sneakers and living in the workers' dorm?

Bob Green
11-07-2017, 03:56 PM
I'm interested to see how UCLA handles this situation longterm:


One source told ESPN that nearly 20 police officers came into the Hyatt Hangzhou at approximately 8 a.m. local time Tuesday and spoke to multiple players from both Georgia Tech and UCLA. The players, according to the source, were kept in a room for hours and not allowed to speak to any of the coaches.

"They weren't messing around," the source told ESPN. "The kids were scared."

The Georgia Tech players were allowed to leave the room hours later, and the UCLA players were seen getting into a police vehicle around 1 p.m. local time, according to the source.

Committing crimes overseas is serious business. Many other countries are much less tolerant of crimes we in the United States consider minor offenses. The State Department will probably have to get involved here to secure these guys release.

CrazyNotCrazie
11-07-2017, 04:04 PM
I'm interested to see how UCLA handles this situation longterm:



Committing crimes overseas is serious business. Many other countries are much less tolerant of crimes we in the United States consider minor offenses. The State Department will probably have to get involved here to secure these guys release.

Ironically, I believe Trump is due to arrive in China tomorrow. Seeing as he has a lot in common with the Ball family (neither has ever met any attention that they didn't like), I wonder if he will take up the cause while he is there.

I can only guess what Ball was shoplifting - perhaps a pair of Nikes?

CameronBornAndBred
11-07-2017, 04:17 PM
According to the internet, you can't walk across the street and pick your nose in China without it going viral, so there's a very highly likely chance they got busted on camera.
Hope whatever they stole was worth it, like some good crab legs or something. (Likely still attached to a live crab.)

Bob Green
11-07-2017, 04:20 PM
Hope whatever they stole was worth it, like some good crab legs or something. (Likely still attached to a live crab.)

Perhaps a nice purse.


The players are being questioned about stealing from a Louis Vuitton store that is located next to the team's hotel.

Li_Duke
11-07-2017, 04:22 PM
Under Chinese law, can a shoplifter be sentenced to work in a factory for (say) 30 days stitching together sneakers and living in the workers' dorm?

You shoplift there; you lose your fingers. I'm only partially kidding.

CameronBornAndBred
11-07-2017, 04:24 PM
Perhaps a nice purse.

Jameis is jealous.

SoCalDukeFan
11-07-2017, 06:38 PM
SoCal

Henderson
11-07-2017, 07:19 PM
... Spend 30 days in a Chinese prison

or

... Be home schooled for a year by LaVar Ball?

sagegrouse
11-07-2017, 07:22 PM
... Spend 30 days in a Chinese prison

or

... Be home schooled for a year by LaVar Ball?

Hah!! Prison! No question!

mr shadow 008
11-07-2017, 09:20 PM
Well obviously he's not a Big Baller if he had to steal from Louis Vuitton.

Pghdukie
11-07-2017, 11:09 PM
Where is the statement from Daddy - something finally shut him up ! Daddy was correct by saying - my boy needs more time

madscavenger
11-08-2017, 03:01 AM
...........Hope whatever they stole was worth it, like some good crab legs or something..........

Wonder if they know Roy. i think he's been over there and he does a whole lotta crabbing. No doubt he'd know what to do.

CameronBlue
11-08-2017, 04:31 AM
Well obviously he's not a Big Baller if he had to steal from Louis Vuitton.

Buying (or stealing) Louis Vuitton is not about projecting wealth or status, it's announcing to the world you have absolutely no taste. I'd sooner carry around my possessions in a plastic bag from Food Lion. Let's not bury the lead here.

DangerDevil
11-08-2017, 05:54 AM
Where is the statement from Daddy - something finally shut him up ! Daddy was correct by saying - my boy needs more time

"LaVar Ball; his wife, Tina; and son LaMelo Ball were having breakfast with the UCLA team in Shanghai on Wednesday morning. LaVar was expected to address the media from his hotel suite Wednesday morning in Shanghai, but he said he was advised by legal counsel not to speak "due to the legal nature of the matter.""

"Ball, Riley and Hill were released around 4 a.m. Wednesday and were staying at a luxury hotel in Hangzhou along with a UCLA representative, according to a source.?They are being required by Hangzhou police to remain at the hotel until the legal process is over, the source said."

http://abcnews.go.com/Sports/uclas-liangelo-ball-released-bail-arrest-china/story?id=51008466

OldPhiKap
11-08-2017, 06:00 AM
Buying (or stealing) Louis Vuitton is not about projecting wealth or status, it's announcing to the world you have absolutely no taste. I'd sooner carry around my possessions in a plastic bag from Food Lion. Let's not bury the lead here.

Crimes against fashion. Serious stuff.

In all seriousness, though, this is not a good sign for the kid.

jv001
11-08-2017, 06:06 AM
"LaVar Ball; his wife, Tina; and son LaMelo Ball were having breakfast with the UCLA team in Shanghai on Wednesday morning. LaVar was expected to address the media from his hotel suite Wednesday morning in Shanghai, but he said he was advised by legal counsel not to speak "due to the legal nature of the matter.""

"Ball, Riley and Hill were released around 4 a.m. Wednesday and were staying at a luxury hotel in Hangzhou along with a UCLA representative, according to a source.?They are being required by Hangzhou police to remain at the hotel until the legal process is over, the source said."

http://abcnews.go.com/Sports/uclas-liangelo-ball-released-bail-arrest-china/story?id=51008466

Finally something shut him up, :cool: but it's not funny for those kids. This is how teenagers think, ten foot tall and bullet proof. Maybe this is a wake up call for all 3 kids. GoDuke!

dukelifer
11-08-2017, 07:28 AM
I'm interested to see how UCLA handles this situation longterm:



Committing crimes overseas is serious business. Many other countries are much less tolerant of crimes we in the United States consider minor offenses. The State Department will probably have to get involved here to secure these guys release.

If they have hard evidence (like a video) and if China let's them go with US intervention- UCLA will need to suspend. A very bad choice by these kids.

mr shadow 008
11-08-2017, 08:27 AM
Buying (or stealing) Louis Vuitton is not about projecting wealth or status, it's announcing to the world you have absolutely no taste. I'd sooner carry around my possessions in a plastic bag from Food Lion. Let's not bury the lead here.

It was a joke to reference that Liangelos father once said that if you can't afford the shoes that you obviously aren't a Big Baller.

CrazyNotCrazie
11-08-2017, 08:34 AM
"LaVar Ball; his wife, Tina; and son LaMelo Ball were having breakfast with the UCLA team in Shanghai on Wednesday morning. LaVar was expected to address the media from his hotel suite Wednesday morning in Shanghai, but he said he was advised by legal counsel not to speak "due to the legal nature of the matter.""

"Ball, Riley and Hill were released around 4 a.m. Wednesday and were staying at a luxury hotel in Hangzhou along with a UCLA representative, according to a source.?They are being required by Hangzhou police to remain at the hotel until the legal process is over, the source said."

http://abcnews.go.com/Sports/uclas-liangelo-ball-released-bail-arrest-china/story?id=51008466

Someone should advise him to not ever speak because he is a narcissistic moron. I love that it references that he is addressing the media from his suite. Because LaVar Ball does not do anything that is not first class...

It is too bad that Duke stopped the series with UCLA many years ago as I would hope that the Crazies would have a lot of fun with this one.

cato
11-08-2017, 08:47 AM
Finally something shut him up, :cool: but it's not funny for those kids. This is how teenagers think, ten foot tall and bullet proof. Maybe this is a wake up call for all 3 kids. GoDuke!

Indeed. And hopefully that is all it is. I would not want to be a young kid accused of crime in China. I wonder if they face time in prison?

CameronBornAndBred
11-08-2017, 09:03 AM
Indeed. And hopefully that is all it is. I would not want to be a young kid accused of crime in China. I wonder if they face time in prison?

They could.

Following news of the arrests, Yahoo Sports’ Dan Wetzel did some analysis of the potential legal consequences. He was told the athletes could face 3-10 years if convicted.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/sports/ncaabk/liangelo-ball-ucla-players-could-face-serious-prison-time-if-convicted/ar-BBEHUYd?ocid=spartanntp

swood1000
11-08-2017, 09:20 AM
The article was a little unclear exactly what LaMelo Ball’s relationship is with his father’s company. But there’s no doubt that the company is marketing shoes using his name (https://bigballerbrand.com/products/la-melo-ball-1-mb1-shoe). And there is also little doubt that the Lamborghini that LaMelo received on his 16th birthday (https://img.bleacherreport.net/img/article/media_slots/photos/002/735/441/239eec4e1f9f21e07394d78a7ee06f03_crop_exact.jpg?h= 533&w=800&q=70&crop_x=center&crop_y=top) came from his father. I don’t really think he is going to try to pretend that the prohibition against marketing his name can be circumvented by simply having his father be the person who enters into the transaction. Rather, their attitude can be understood from a statement made by his father, LaVar:


"He's going to have a shoe," LaVar told Baxter Holmes of ESPN. "NCAA ain't going to tell me sh-t. …”

If they take the case to court it will be in the 9th Circuit, the same court that decided O’Bannon. But there’s already been a case filed ahead of them: Jenkins v. NCAA. Jenkins is trying to get the court to prevent the NCAA from enforcing the amateurism rules, and his case is being heard by the exact same trial judge that heard O’Bannon. That judge was very favorable to O’Bannon, ruling that the NCAA had to allow its members (a) to give scholarships up to the full cost of attendance, and (b) to pay cash compensation up to $5,000 per year in deferred compensation, to be held in trust for student-athletes. The NCAA appealed and the Court of Appeals reversed (b), saying that “The difference between offering student-athletes education-related compensation and offering them cash sums untethered to educational expenses is not minor; it is a quantum leap.” (Since O’Bannon partially prevailed on the antitrust suit the NCAA had to pay attorney’s fees and costs of $42.3 million (https://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/college/2016/03/31/federal-judge-ncaa-must-pay-423-million-obannon-anti-trust-case/82493298/), making such cases a potentially nice payday for plaintiffs’ attorneys.)

The NCAA then argued that based on O'Bannon, Jenkins had to lose but the judge ruled that the Court of Appeals ruling “simply forecloses one type of relief plaintiffs previously sought: cash compensation untethered to educational expenses.” So the trial judge still thinks she’s right, but it looks like an uphill battle given the last ruling from the Court of Appeals, which said:


Both we and the district court agree that the NCAA’s amateurism rule has procompetitive benefits. But in finding that paying students cash compensation would promote amateurism as effectively as not paying them, the district court ignored that not paying student-athletes is precisely what makes them amateurs.

Having found that amateurism is integral to the NCAA’s market, the district court cannot plausibly conclude that being a poorly-paid professional collegiate athlete is “virtually as effective” for that market as being as amateur. Or, to borrow the Supreme Court’s analogy, the market for college football is distinct from other sports markets and must be “differentiate[d]” from professional sports lest it become “minor league [football].” Bd. of Regents, 468 U.S. at 102.

Furthermore, other circuits have answered the question differently, ruling entirely in favor of the NCAA. If Jenkins does manage to win in the trial court and to get the Court of Appeals to change its view then we’ll have another appeal to the Supreme Court. I can’t see all this happening in time to help LeMelo Ball retain his eligibility to play college basketball, at least for his freshman year.

Neals384
11-08-2017, 10:21 AM
Can someone please translate Julio's front page article:

"At some point during the late morning or early afternoon, Pastner found out that the Chinese police had detained three of his players in a shoplifting probe."

How are they Josh's players?

camion
11-08-2017, 10:33 AM
Can someone please translate Julio's front page article:

"At some point during the late morning or early afternoon, Pastner found out that the Chinese police had detained three of his players in a shoplifting probe."

How are they Josh's players?


Three Georgia Tech players were questioned by police, but not charged. Three UCLA players have bigger problems.

"Police were called to the hotel shared by the Georgia Tech and UCLA teams, and three players for the Yellow Jackets were questioned and cleared."

A link to one story. (http://amp.wsbtv.com/sports/ucla-georgia-tech-players-questioned-by-police-in-china/642376794)

Atlanta Duke
11-08-2017, 10:33 AM
Can someone please translate Julio's front page article:

"At some point during the late morning or early afternoon, Pastner found out that the Chinese police had detained three of his players in a shoplifting probe."

How are they Josh's players?

Could have said questioned but when the local police in China drop by your hotel for a chat I would not like your chances if you said no thanks I do not care to talk with you

Local police were called to the team hotel for both UCLA and Georgia Tech on Tuesday morning to investigate an unknown matter. Three Tech basketball players were questioned and cleared, according to a statement from the school....

The Tech team was set to leave for practice around 8:30 a.m., but players were eventually directed to a conference room reserved for team meals and then were taken to an unscheduled study hall. The three aforementioned players were not present.

http://www.myajc.com/sports/college/chinese-police-question-clear-georgia-tech-players/4yROH1OaRv4zBPAiHOod9O/

Neals384
11-08-2017, 11:19 AM
Thanks. Every young person who goes overseas should watch episodes of Locked Up Abroad first. Or video of that kid who tossed his gum on the street in Singapore. The freedoms we take for granted do not apply "over there."

blUDAYvil
11-08-2017, 11:54 AM
Thanks. Every young person who goes overseas should watch episodes of Locked Up Abroad first. Or video of that kid who tossed his gum on the street in Singapore. The freedoms we take for granted do not apply "over there."

Every young person who goes overseas should exercise common sense. I have lived overseas for the last 17 years as a foreign national in the US. This means I observe and obey local laws more than when I'm in my home country. The consequences of breaking the law for a visitor are greater than for a local in most countries, and especially the US.

swood1000
11-08-2017, 12:01 PM
It appears that LaMelo Ball may have begun using Dennis Rodman's haberdasher (not that there's anything wrong with that).

http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2017/11/08/15/461D7C9900000578-5062657-LaVar_Ball_middle_back_LaMelo_Ball_left_and_LiAnge lo_Ball_right_-a-5_1510155533156.jpghttps://news-silverscreenartists1-prod.s3.amazonaws.com/uploads/ckeditor/pictures/199/content_CLOTHES-rodman-pink.jpg

weezie
11-08-2017, 02:11 PM
Anywhere, anytime, I'd rather hang with Rodman that any of the Ball clan. Bustier bodysuit or not. At least Dennis was a legit talent with the rings to prove it.

budwom
11-08-2017, 02:26 PM
So a dozen or so very tall African Americans amble about a store in China...I would've thought they'd have blended right in! Can't imagine why they got noticed...
Good news for them is that the Chinese Prez is presiding over a love fest for Trump this week, they've got nothing to worry about (except embarrassment).

rasputin
11-08-2017, 03:09 PM
So a dozen or so very tall African Americans amble about a store in China...I would've thought they'd have blended right in! Can't imagine why they got noticed...
Good news for them is that the Chinese Prez is presiding over a love fest for Trump this week, they've got nothing to worry about (except embarrassment).

Anybody in the Ball family has to have a high threshold of embarrassment in the first place.

wobatus
11-08-2017, 04:29 PM
Thanks. Every young person who goes overseas should watch episodes of Locked Up Abroad first. Or video of that kid who tossed his gum on the street in Singapore. The freedoms we take for granted do not apply "over there."

Or Midnight Express.

On a high school trip we were on a Greek cruise ship in the Mediterranean. We goofed off late one night and shot some ship ashtrays off the skeet thrower. Got called into the captain's office. He put a good scare in us.

Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15
11-08-2017, 04:51 PM
Or Midnight Express.

On a high school trip we were on a Greek cruise ship in the Mediterranean. We goofed off late one night and shot some ship ashtrays off the skeet thrower. Got called into the captain's office. He put a good scare in us.

I was in Moscow in 2001 (pre-9/11). Standing with schoolmates near Red Square we had police approach us and ask to see our passports. Without looking at them, they put the passports in their back pocket and explained that since one in our group was smoking, we were subject to a $20 (US, conveniently) fine. We could settle it right now, or we could go to the police station.

Needless to say, we paid the money and were happy to see our passports again.

Don't eff with foreign police, it can actually ruin your life.

evrim
11-08-2017, 06:46 PM
This is a terrible photograph (on the left). Did they go to Walmart or something like that? As a photographer, this offends me.


It appears that LaMelo Ball may have begun using Dennis Rodman's haberdasher (not that there's anything wrong with that).

http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2017/11/08/15/461D7C9900000578-5062657-LaVar_Ball_middle_back_LaMelo_Ball_left_and_LiAnge lo_Ball_right_-a-5_1510155533156.jpghttps://news-silverscreenartists1-prod.s3.amazonaws.com/uploads/ckeditor/pictures/199/content_CLOTHES-rodman-pink.jpg

curtis325
11-08-2017, 09:39 PM
Anywhere, anytime, I'd rather hang with Rodman that any of the Ball clan. Bustier bodysuit or not. At least Dennis was a legit talent with the rings to prove it.

In his nose, his ears, his lip, and who knows where else.

ricks68
11-08-2017, 11:22 PM
It appears that LaMelo Ball may have begun using Dennis Rodman's haberdasher (not that there's anything wrong with that).

http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2017/11/08/15/461D7C9900000578-5062657-LaVar_Ball_middle_back_LaMelo_Ball_left_and_LiAnge lo_Ball_right_-a-5_1510155533156.jpghttps://news-silverscreenartists1-prod.s3.amazonaws.com/uploads/ckeditor/pictures/199/content_CLOTHES-rodman-pink.jpg

From these pictures, it appears that only Rodman and the Baller kid on the left would not attract attention in Asheville.:rolleyes::p

ricks

Atlanta Duke
11-09-2017, 09:09 AM
Atlanta Journal-Constitution update

There is a strong likelihood that the three UCLA basketball players arrested Tuesday for shoplifting in Hangzhou, China, will face 20 days of house arrest and then not be permitted to visit the country ...

The three players, LiAngelo Ball, Jalen Hill and Cody Riley, could serve the punishment at the hotel where the UCLA and Georgia Tech teams stayed in Hangzhou, the Hyatt Regency Hangzhou.

http://www.myajc.com/sports/college/house-arrest-likely-punishment-for-arrested-ucla-players/zXcfBCY0FmYoEI3CLxOsbI/

No word if the players will get room service or be allowed to have access to the buffet line in the Hyatt dining room

CameronBornAndBred
11-09-2017, 09:26 AM
Atlanta Journal-Constitution update

There is a strong likelihood that the three UCLA basketball players arrested Tuesday for shoplifting in Hangzhou, China, will face 20 days of house arrest and then not be permitted to visit the country ...

The three players, LiAngelo Ball, Jalen Hill and Cody Riley, could serve the punishment at the hotel where the UCLA and Georgia Tech teams stayed in Hangzhou, the Hyatt Regency Hangzhou.

http://www.myajc.com/sports/college/house-arrest-likely-punishment-for-arrested-ucla-players/zXcfBCY0FmYoEI3CLxOsbI/

No word if the players will get room service or be allowed to have access to the buffet line in the Hyatt dining room

Wonder who's gonna foot the bill for that.
I haven't seen where UCLA has made any statements on the status of the players, but I'll be surprised that (if convicted) they all aren't kicked off the team and even out of school. That will be quite interesting for LiAngelo, since he's not NBA bound. I'd think that being in school for four years would be in his better interest. (Of course, not stealing in China in the first place would have been in his better interest.)

CameronBornAndBred
11-09-2017, 09:35 AM
Atlanta Journal-Constitution update

[I]There is a strong likelihood that the three UCLA basketball players arrested Tuesday for shoplifting in Hangzhou, China, will face 20 days of house arrest and then not be permitted to visit the country ...


This article projects an even harsher likelihood. Ouch.

The three UCLA men’s basketball players arrested in China for allegedly shoplifting a day before U.S. President Donald Trump’s visit cannot leave their hotel until the end of the legal process, which could last months, ESPN reported on Wednesday
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-ucla-china/ucla-basketball-players-arrested-in-china-could-stay-for-months-espn-idUSKBN1D83A9

So that 20 days house arrest might be their sentence, but getting to the point of sentencing could last much longer. Read that whole article for a better understanding of how the Chinese judicial system works. 99% conviction rate if the arrest is approved. Eek.

sagegrouse
11-09-2017, 09:43 AM
This article projects an even harsher likelihood. Ouch.

The three UCLA men’s basketball players arrested in China for allegedly shoplifting a day before U.S. President Donald Trump’s visit cannot leave their hotel until the end of the legal process, which could last months, ESPN reported on Wednesday
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-ucla-china/ucla-basketball-players-arrested-in-china-could-stay-for-months-espn-idUSKBN1D83A9

So that 20 days house arrest might be their sentence, but getting to the point of sentencing could last much longer. Read that whole article for a better understanding of how the Chinese judicial system works. 99% conviction rate if the arrest is approved. Eek.

While I blame the kids, all freshmen, for the apparent crimes. I also blame Steve Alford and UCLA. What were their pre-trip briefings and tutorials about visiting and playing in China? Weren't they given horror stories? I mean, UCLA is a big-time school and athletic program and Alford has been a head coach for 23 years. They should know exactly how to school the players before a trip to China.

sagegrouse
11-09-2017, 10:53 AM
From Alec Nathan of Bleacher Report:


Following Wednesday's loss, Ball is shooting 29.5 percent from the field and 23.1 percent from three. He's also converting a league-worst 34.4 percent of his shots in the paint, per Second Spectrum (via ESPN Stats & Info).

.....................................

As a result, the Lakers now own a better offensive rating (100.5) with Ball on the bench compared to when he's on the floor running the offense (98.6).

cato
11-09-2017, 10:59 AM
From Alec Nathan of Bleacher Report:

Huh. Who would have thought that a rookie pointguard with a target on his back would struggle?

CameronBornAndBred
11-09-2017, 11:21 AM
Huh. Who would have thought that a rookie pointguard with a target on his back would struggle?

I'm blaming the shoes.

budwom
11-09-2017, 11:32 AM
This article projects an even harsher likelihood. Ouch.

The three UCLA men’s basketball players arrested in China for allegedly shoplifting a day before U.S. President Donald Trump’s visit cannot leave their hotel until the end of the legal process, which could last months, ESPN reported on Wednesday
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-ucla-china/ucla-basketball-players-arrested-in-china-could-stay-for-months-espn-idUSKBN1D83A9

So that 20 days house arrest might be their sentence, but getting to the point of sentencing could last much longer. Read that whole article for a better understanding of how the Chinese judicial system works. 99% conviction rate if the arrest is approved. Eek.

I'd bet a BIG box of Entenmann's chocolate frosted donuts that this doesn't happen...Donald and Xi are having a kissy-fest visit, no way some trivial (if somewhat humorous) event like this will result in long incarceration.
They'll plead guilty to being knuckleheads and head home.

I love the way the national news is reporting this, NBC last night referred to the trio as "basketball stars." Really?

weezie
11-09-2017, 11:43 AM
While I blame the kids, all freshmen, for the apparent crimes. I also blame Steve Alford and UCLA. What were their pre-trip briefings and tutorials about visiting and playing in China?

While I understand what you are saying, was Alford supposed to tell them not to shoplift or steal anything? How can they not know it is wrong to steal? The value of a Vuitton bag theft would constitute a felony here in the states.

sagegrouse
11-09-2017, 11:53 AM
While I understand what you are saying, was Alford supposed to tell them not to shoplift or steal anything? How can they not know it is wrong to steal? The value of a Vuitton bag theft would constitute a felony here in the states.

My question is as follows: Did the team get briefed in detail by Alford or UCLA on being a traveler in Chine? Minor crimes can result in long incarcerations, even before a trial, which will result almost certainly in conviction.

moonpie23
11-09-2017, 11:57 AM
sorry, i agree with Weezie........Alford having to tag on "hey guys, remember......don't STEAL anything while you're here" seems like some other problem...

ohioguy2
11-09-2017, 11:58 AM
My question is as follows: Did the team get briefed in detail by Alford or UCLA on being a traveler in Chine? Minor crimes can result in long incarcerations, even before a trial, which will result almost certainly in conviction.


They probably were briefed, but the real question is did they listen. Even if they did listen, many teens listen but do not really hear.

swood1000
11-09-2017, 11:59 AM
According to the Washington Post (https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/early-lead/wp/2017/11/07/liangelo-ball-and-two-other-ucla-players-reportedly-arrested-in-china-for-shoplifting/), they are charged with stealing sunglasses from the Louis Vuitton store next to the hotel, in Hangzhou.


Washington Post correspondent Simon Denyer reports from Beijing that someone who takes goods worth between 1,000 yuan ($150) and 2,500 yuan ($380), for example, could face a maximum sentence of six months, but might escape with only a fine. Stealing anything worth more than that would be punished with jail time. Someone convicted of stealing goods worth between 7,000 ($1,050) and 10,000 yuan ($1,510) would face between two and three years in jail under Chinese law. Theft of something worth 2,500 yuan to 4,000 yuan could result in a sentence of 6 months to one year and 4,000 yuan to 7,000 yuan, one to two years.

Here’s the inside of that store:

http://us.louisvuitton.com/images/is/image/lv/1/VE_DI3_AS/louis-vuitton-find-a-store-cn-louis-vuitton-hangzhou-tower-men--StFi_Louis_Vuitton_HANGZHOU_TOWER_805_2_DI3.jpg?wi d=326&hei=184

The sunglasses on the Louis Vuitton web page (http://us.louisvuitton.com/eng-us/men/accessories/sunglasses/_/N-n6fzbv/to-2) went from $435 to $1,990.

sagegrouse
11-09-2017, 12:01 PM
They probably were briefed, but the real question is did they listen. Even if they did listen, many teens listen but do not really hear.

I would have done the briefing on campus, with a refresher at LAX, at the first meeting, and at every subsequent meeting. Trouble is, you are in a luxury Western hotel and you walk into a fancy shop next door. It's like you never left home -- but you have. And BTW would these kids have done this (assuming guilt) in a trip to NYC?

Duke95
11-09-2017, 12:32 PM
If they're charging $1990 for sunglasses, it's Louis Vuitton that's doing the stealing.

swood1000
11-09-2017, 01:37 PM
If they're charging $1990 for sunglasses, it's Louis Vuitton that's doing the stealing.
A fool and his money, as they say. The Air Jordan 1X “Fragment” goes for $2,210 - $3,289 on Amazon, but only $2000 here (https://www.flightclub.com/air-jordan-1-x-fragment-black-sport-royal-white-012101).

budwom
11-09-2017, 01:42 PM
If they're charging $1990 for sunglasses, it's Louis Vuitton that's doing the stealing.

seems like a good time to mention Kevin Kwan's most entertaining book Crazy Rich Asians. Very big on discussing mega conspicuous consumption. I think it's going to be a movie, too...

swood1000
11-09-2017, 02:56 PM
seems like a good time to mention Kevin Kwan's most entertaining book Crazy Rich Asians. Very big on discussing mega conspicuous consumption. I think it's going to be a movie, too...
But who wouldn't pay $1,990 for a pair of these babies:

http://us.louisvuitton.com/images/is/image/lv/1/PP_VP_M/louis-vuitton-attitude-pilote-piiante-sunglasses--Z0652U_PM2_Front%20view.jpg?wid=681&hei=681

NSDukeFan
11-09-2017, 03:06 PM
Wonder who's gonna foot the bill for that.

Mexico?

I'd bet a BIG box of Entenmann's chocolate frosted donuts that this doesn't happen...Donald and Xi are having a kissy-fest visit, no way some trivial (if somewhat humorous) event like this will result in long incarceration.
They'll plead guilty to being knuckleheads and head home.

I love the way the national news is reporting this, NBC last night referred to the trio as "basketball stars." Really?
Kind of like Carolina players being referred to as "student-athletes" and the basketball facilities being referred to as part of a "university ".

If they're charging $1990 for sunglasses, it's Louis Vuitton that's doing the stealing.
Pretty sure the Ball boy should know about ridiculous prices for stuff.

But who wouldn't pay $1,990 for a pair of these babies:

http://us.louisvuitton.com/images/is/image/lv/1/PP_VP_M/louis-vuitton-attitude-pilote-piiante-sunglasses--Z0652U_PM2_Front%20view.jpg?wid=681&hei=681

Very true.



Of course, I typically get the cheapest pairs I can find, so it bothers me less when I lose or break them.

swood1000
11-09-2017, 03:13 PM
Assuming they are guilty, on the one hand China may be motivated to avoid a hit to their tourist trade like happened to North Korea as a result of the Otto Warmbier fiasco. On the other hand they don’t want to send a message that tourists have a get-out-of-jail-free card and so might as well try their luck.

Bob Green
11-09-2017, 03:34 PM
Assuming they are guilty...

I like to keep things simple so seeing as the Chinese Police arrested them, they are guilty. Cynicism aside, I lived in Asia for a long time, granted Japan not China, but my experience is police conduct very thorough investigations.

Stray Gator
11-09-2017, 03:59 PM
Assuming they are guilty, on the one hand China may be motivated to avoid a hit to their tourist trade like happened to North Korea as a result of the Otto Warmbier fiasco. On the other hand they don’t want to send a message that tourists have a get-out-of-jail-free card and so might as well try their luck.

Chinese officials, in considering how aggressively to prosecute this offense, will undoubtedly deny being influenced by the response of LiAngelo's father, who, upon hearing of his son's arrest for allegedly shoplifting expensive Louis Vuitton sunglasses, endeavored to bolster his bid for the Model Modern Parent Medal by commenting: "It ain't that big a deal."

Chillduck
11-09-2017, 04:12 PM
They probably were briefed, but the real question is did they listen. Even if they did listen, many teens listen but do not really hear.

I think its many teens hear but don't listen.

swood1000
11-09-2017, 04:21 PM
I think its many teens hear but don't listen.
Take your pick:

Matthew 13:12 NRSV: The reason I speak to them in parables is that ‘seeing they do not perceive, and hearing they do not listen, nor do they understand.’

Matthew 13:12 ISV That’s why I speak to them in parables, because ‘they look but don’t see, and they listen but don’t hear or understand.’

mph
11-09-2017, 04:50 PM
LiAngelo's father, who, upon hearing of his son's arrest for allegedly shoplifting expensive Louis Vuitton sunglasses, endeavored to bolster his bid for the Model Modern Parent Medal by commenting: "It ain't that big a deal."

Wait a minute. You can’t seriously be suggesting that there’s more to successful parenting than turning your son into a brand, keeping his name in the media at all costs, and making him rich. 🙄

I’m with you. For the life of me I can’t figure out how some people hold LaVarr up as some kid of model parent. He appears to be a model of a win-at-all-cost, self-promoting narcissist. I’ll avoid mentioning the most obvious political analog by name for fear of crossing into PBB territory. In any case, give me Calvin Hill and David Robinson any day.

cato
11-09-2017, 04:52 PM
But who wouldn't pay $1,990 for a pair of these babies:

http://us.louisvuitton.com/images/is/image/lv/1/PP_VP_M/louis-vuitton-attitude-pilote-piiante-sunglasses--Z0652U_PM2_Front%20view.jpg?wid=681&hei=681

Wait, isn’t that what we are talking about?

cato
11-09-2017, 04:57 PM
Assuming they are guilty, on the one hand China may be motivated to avoid a hit to their tourist trade like happened to North Korea as a result of the Otto Warmbier fiasco. On the other hand they don’t want to send a message that tourists have a get-out-of-jail-free card and so might as well try their luck.

This is easy: don’t kill the kids.

UCLA is not a small shop. It is bigger than Duke, and just part of the UC system.

I would die* to know what is going on behind the scenes.



*Not really

swood1000
11-09-2017, 05:57 PM
This is easy: don’t kill the kids.

One would think. Apparently not such a straightforward proposition for North Korea.

Pghdukie
11-09-2017, 06:29 PM
A question for Bob Green. As an experienced Asian traveler, what is your opinion on the relationship between the US and China ? Your view points are held extremely important

ohioguy2
11-09-2017, 06:33 PM
Take your pick:

Matthew 13:12 NRSV: The reason I speak to them in parables is that ‘seeing they do not perceive, and hearing they do not listen, nor do they understand.’

Matthew 13:12 ISV That’s why I speak to them in parables, because ‘they look but don’t see, and they listen but don’t hear or understand.’



Thank you.

dudog84
11-09-2017, 07:29 PM
re Lonzo, this from Boston Celtics forward Marcus Morris after Boston fans loudly booed Lonzo every time he touched the ball last night:

"He's a good kid -- it's his dad," Morris said. "He's got a big mouth, everybody knows it."

Almost starting to feel for the kid.

At halftime, Lakers losing to 5-5 Wizards by 13 with Lonzo going for 4 points on 2-7 shooting.

moonpie23
11-09-2017, 07:38 PM
doing a google search for "what's the penalty for shoplifting in china" returns several hits that speak of judges being lenient to the dismay of merchants......

that said, there are several articles pointing out that the judicial system could keep them under house arrest for several months.. I'm guessing that Levar is getting schooled on keeping in mind that his mouth is NOT back in the good ol usa!!...

Bob Green
11-09-2017, 08:27 PM
A question for Bob Green. As an experienced Asian traveler, what is your opinion on the relationship between the US and China ? Your view points are held extremely important

Although I've been to Hong Kong more times than I can count, I've never been to China proper. All my travels in Asia, including living in Japan for 17.5 years, were courtesy of the U.S. Navy so my answer to your question will have a naval slant. The United States and Chinese navies have a complicated relationship. On the surface, the two have a high degree of cooperation; however, beneath the surface lies a large amount of competition. China desires to be a major naval power, especially in the Western Pacific, but the Western Pacific currently belongs to the U.S. Navy and has belonged to the U.S. Navy since the end of World War II. At this time, no navy including the Chinese Navy can challenge us on the high seas.

My bottom line assessment is cooperation leads competition at this time because it is in the best interest of both nations to avoid a confrontation. Confrontation is coming but it most likely isn't coming in the near future.

The real answer to your question requires an economic slant but economics isn't my swim lane. Perhaps Sage Grouse will weigh in.

Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15
11-09-2017, 08:47 PM
Although I've been to Hong Kong more times than I can count, I've never been to China proper. All my travels in Asia, including living in Japan for 17.5 years, were courtesy of the U.S. Navy so my answer to your question will have a naval slant. The United States and Chinese navies have a complicated relationship. On the surface, the two have a high degree of cooperation; however, beneath the surface lies a large amount of competition. China desires to be a major naval power, especially in the Western Pacific, but the Western Pacific currently belongs to the U.S. Navy and has belonged to the U.S. Navy since the end of World War II. At this time, no navy including the Chinese Navy can challenge us on the high seas.

My bottom line assessment is cooperation leads competition at this time because it is in the best interest of both nations to avoid a confrontation. Confrontation is coming but it most likely isn't coming in the near future.

The real answer to your question requires an economic slant but economics isn't my swim lane. Perhaps Sage Grouse will weigh in.

What an excellent and experienced analysis. Thanks for your perspective. Sporks!

sagegrouse
11-09-2017, 09:00 PM
Although I've been to Hong Kong more times than I can count, I've never been to China proper. All my travels in Asia, including living in Japan for 17.5 years, were courtesy of the U.S. Navy so my answer to your question will have a naval slant. The United States and Chinese navies have a complicated relationship. On the surface, the two have a high degree of cooperation; however, beneath the surface lies a large amount of competition. China desires to be a major naval power, especially in the Western Pacific, but the Western Pacific currently belongs to the U.S. Navy and has belonged to the U.S. Navy since the end of World War II. At this time, no navy including the Chinese Navy can challenge us on the high seas.

My bottom line assessment is cooperation leads competition at this time because it is in the best interest of both nations to avoid a confrontation. Confrontation is coming but it most likely isn't coming in the near future.

The real answer to your question requires an economic slant but economics isn't my swim lane. Perhaps Sage Grouse will weigh in.

Living in Japan for 17.5 years? Wow!!!

Original Question:

Pghdukie

A question for Bob Green. As an experienced Asian traveler, what is your opinion on the relationship between the US and China ? Your view points are held extremely important
China is an integral part of the world economy, of which the US is the largest player by far. It has experienced rapid growth and increasing prosperity in the last two decades.

At the same time, don't we see evidence of China flexing its muscles in adjacent regions, such as the "fake islands" bordering the South China Sea? Moreover, China has made investments in countries overseas, especially in Africa, as a way of gaining leverage and access to minerals. There are mixed views on how successful this strategy has been.

My bottom line: It seems like China wants to be recognized as a military and naval power, but why would the Chinese attack their best customer?

It's complicated -- no wonder Bob Green ducked the question.

budwom
11-10-2017, 07:02 AM
Ball is very lucky to the extent that with Trump now visiting China, and things are going smoothly, there is NO chance he and his pals get anything other than a slap on the wrist. Zero.

devildeac
11-10-2017, 07:12 AM
I've heard the "u"nc PR and legal teams are currently not working on any projects. Perhaps their services could be retained. They're experienced on the "get out of jail free" aspect.

Or, perhaps a panel of ncaa committee members experienced in exoneration might infiltrate the local Chinese legal system.

:rolleyes::mad:

jv001
11-10-2017, 07:53 AM
I've heard the "u"nc PR and legal teams are currently not working on any projects. Perhaps their services could be retained. They're experienced on the "get out of jail free" aspect.

Or, perhaps a panel of ncaa committee members experienced in exoneration might infiltrate the local Chinese legal system.

:rolleyes::mad:

Wonder what kind of punishment PJ "Crash" Hairston would have gotten had he been caught for doing 95 mph on one of their express-ways? I don't think even the cheat lawyers would have been able to keep him from being jailed.:cool: GoDuke!

swood1000
11-10-2017, 09:20 AM
Chinese officials, in considering how aggressively to prosecute this offense, will undoubtedly deny being influenced by the response of LiAngelo's father, who, upon hearing of his son's arrest for allegedly shoplifting expensive Louis Vuitton sunglasses, endeavored to bolster his bid for the Model Modern Parent Medal by commenting: "It ain't that big a deal."
Perhaps also noteworthy that his comment was not "They're innocent."

swood1000
11-10-2017, 01:19 PM
LaMelo Ball is apparently (http://bleacherreport.com/articles/2730722-lavar-ball-on-lamelos-ncaa-eligibility-after-shoe-reveal-who-cares) the first high schooler with his own signature shoe.

The NCAA Bylaws are very strict about an athlete receiving “pay” in return for competing in the sport even prior to college. He’s in the clear as long as he receives expenses that exceed his actual expenses by $300 or less. The story appears to be different, however, with respect to advertisements and promotions prior to becoming a college student-athlete. According to Bylaw 12.5.2.1.1, if an individual, prior to college enrollment, “Receives remuneration for endorsing a commercial product or service through the individual’s use of such product or service,” his eligibility will not be affected as long as he “Takes appropriate steps upon becoming a student-athlete to retract permission for the use of his or her name or picture and ceases receipt of any remuneration for such an arrangement.”

So LaMelo may be in the clear if upon entering college he retracts permission to use his name and stops receiving money based on that arrangement. Presumably he could retract permission but decline to sue the shoe company that continues using his name, and would be in the clear as long as the company pre-paid him for any amounts earned after entering college, and this was received prior to enrollment in college. But no pay for play.

DangerDevil
11-11-2017, 05:52 AM
From ESPN’s Arash Markazi:

“The three UCLA men's basketball players arrested on shoplifting charges Tuesday will remain in Hangzhou and will not be on the team's flight back to Los Angeles after the Bruins' season-opening 63-60 win over Georgia Tech in Shanghai on Saturday, multiple sources told ESPN.”

“A source with firsthand knowledge of the investigation said the players could be in Hangzhou for "a week or two." The source also noted that there is surveillance footage of the players shoplifting from three stores inside of a high-end shopping center next to the team's hotel in Hangzhou, which houses Louis Vuitton, Gucci, Yves Saint Laurent and Salvatore Ferragamo stores.“

sagegrouse
11-11-2017, 07:25 AM
From ESPN’s Arash Markazi:

“The three UCLA men's basketball players arrested on shoplifting charges Tuesday will remain in Hangzhou and will not be on the team's flight back to Los Angeles after the Bruins' season-opening 63-60 win over Georgia Tech in Shanghai on Saturday, multiple sources told ESPN.”

“A source with firsthand knowledge of the investigation said the players could be in Hangzhou for "a week or two." The source also noted that there is surveillance footage of the players shoplifting from three stores inside of a high-end shopping center next to the team's hotel in Hangzhou, which houses Louis Vuitton, Gucci, Yves Saint Laurent and Salvatore Ferragamo stores.“

The three players are to be kicked off the team, right???? I mean, how can they remain UCLA basketball players when caught on video shoplifting expensive items of $1,000 or so in three stores? And, by the way, they will fall disastrously behind in their course work and will have to drop out for the semester, right? And, also, they'll be expelled from UCLA for theft and larceny while representing the school, right?

I think we're about to have a test of institutional integrity, and I am not sure UCLA will get a very good score.

budwom
11-11-2017, 07:48 AM
The three players are to be kicked off the team, right???? I mean, how can they remain UCLA basketball players when caught on video shoplifting expensive items of $1,000 or so in three stores? And, by the way, they will fall disastrously behind in their course work and will have to drop out for the semester, right? And, also, they'll be expelled from UCLA for theft and larceny while representing the school, right?

I think we're about to have a test of institutional integrity, and I am not sure UCLA will get a very good score.

UCLA will host a benefit dinner for them when they return. Had they done all this in the U.S., they could be facing multiple felony counts, though in L.A. they'd just get a parade.

CameronBornAndBred
11-11-2017, 08:45 AM
The three players are to be kicked off the team, right???? I mean, how can they remain UCLA basketball players when caught on video shoplifting expensive items of $1,000 or so in three stores? And, by the way, they will fall disastrously behind in their course work and will have to drop out for the semester, right? And, also, they'll be expelled from UCLA for theft and larceny while representing the school, right?

I think we're about to have a test of institutional integrity, and I am not sure UCLA will get a very good score.

I posted up thread similar thinking. I don't see how they make it through after putting both UCLA and the PAC-12 in such embarrassing light. (I bring up the PAC-12 since their commissioner weighed in.)
Whether they survive as students is up to the school, but I don't see how Alford doesn't kick them off the team. I wonder if he's already had that discussion with them. It won't do any good to anyone to make that decision public until they are back on US soil, but he'll have zero respect if the consequences don't carry the maximum effect.

Atlanta Duke
11-11-2017, 08:49 AM
From ESPN’s Arash Markazi:

“The three UCLA men's basketball players arrested on shoplifting charges Tuesday will remain in Hangzhou and will not be on the team's flight back to Los Angeles after the Bruins' season-opening 63-60 win over Georgia Tech in Shanghai on Saturday, multiple sources told ESPN.”

“A source with firsthand knowledge of the investigation said the players could be in Hangzhou for "a week or two." The source also noted that there is surveillance footage of the players shoplifting from three stores inside of a high-end shopping center next to the team's hotel in Hangzhou, which houses Louis Vuitton, Gucci, Yves Saint Laurent and Salvatore Ferragamo stores.“

If you get into trouble it is always good to have friends in high places to help resolve "complications"

During the investigation, the school and Pac-12 Conference have been receiving assistance from Chinese e-commerce goliath Alibaba, the presenting sponsor of the Pac-12 China Game. On Monday, UCLA and Georgia Tech received a tour of Alibaba in Hangzhou and met Joe Tsai, the executive vice chairman and co-founder of Alibaba...

"Every young person makes mistakes, but the key point is how they will handle it after making the mistake," Tsai said before the game Saturday. "I think sometimes things can be very complicated, and the last couple of days I've seen firsthand professionalism on all sides."

http://www.espn.com/mens-college-basketball/story/_/id/21370055/three-ucla-players-arrested-shoplifting-charges-fly-home-team

devildeac
11-11-2017, 08:57 AM
The three players are to be kicked off the team, right???? I mean, how can they remain UCLA basketball players when caught on video shoplifting expensive items of $1,000 or so in three stores? And, by the way, they will fall disastrously behind in their course work and will have to drop out for the semester, right? And, also, they'll be expelled from UCLA for theft and larceny while representing the school, right?

I think we're about to have a test of institutional integrity, and I am not sure UCLA will get a very good score.

Well, we have seen LOIC recently that has gone unrepentant, unrecognized and unpunished by both the "institution" and the "governing" body...

JasonEvans
11-11-2017, 10:12 AM
I'll say that I don't think being permanently kicked off the team is a mandatory move here by Alford. I could see him giving them a lengthy suspension but saying they could earn the right to return to the team at some point -- perhaps after a month or two. I don't think that would be an outrageous decision on his part. I am guessing this is the first time these kids have gotten in trouble at UCLA (not that they have had much time in the program to get in toruble) and I could understand if he said they deserved the opportunity to earn a second chance to be a part of the program.

-Jason "my bet is they get something like a 5-8 game suspension... I have no idea how they even begin to keep up with their classes though" Evans

ohioguy2
11-11-2017, 10:48 AM
My guess is that if they miss games while under house arrest in China that will be their punishment. Other than that they will have to endure taunts from opposing fans as the only other penalty.

NSDukeFan
11-11-2017, 11:13 AM
-Jason "my bet is they get something like a 5-8 game suspension... I have no idea how they even begin to keep up with their classes though" Evans

I'm not sure what the PAC-12 or UCLA rules are but as far as NCAA eligibility requirements go, they don't need to keep up with their classes.

mgtr
11-11-2017, 11:16 AM
I am uncertain of the name of the Ball currently at UCLA, but I don't think it is Levitra. But, if I recall correctly from an earlier thread, he wasn't very good, but UCLA had to take him to get Lonzo, who was very good. If true, this could be a relatively painless way for Alford to dump the current Ball (along with two other players, quality unknown). Probably puts UCLA at the bottom of the list for getting the third Ball, quality also unknown to me.

rsvman
11-11-2017, 11:23 AM
I am uncertain of the name of the Ball currently at UCLA, but I don't think it is Levitra. But, if I recall correctly from an earlier thread, he wasn't very good, but UCLA had to take him to get Lonzo, who was very good. If true, this could be a relatively painless way for Alford to dump the current Ball (along with two other players, quality unknown). Probably puts UCLA at the bottom of the list for getting the third Ball, quality also unknown to me.

I'm no expert on the Ball family, but my understanding is that the third one is good.

CDu
11-11-2017, 11:23 AM
I am uncertain of the name of the Ball currently at UCLA, but I don't think it is Levitra. But, if I recall correctly from an earlier thread, he wasn't very good, but UCLA had to take him to get Lonzo, who was very good. If true, this could be a relatively painless way for Alford to dump the current Ball (along with two other players, quality unknown). Probably puts UCLA at the bottom of the list for getting the third Ball, quality also unknown to me.

LiAngelo is the middle Ball. He is not nearly as good as his brothers, in part because he's not a PG like they are. Lonzo appears to be the best of the lot, while LaMelo (the youngest) is a very good but not quite elite PG prospect. LiAngelo is a SF recruit who was outside the top-100. Not a bad player, but not likely to light up anyone's draft board either.

LaMelo is currently committed to UCLA. I suspect, though, that if UCLA cut ties with LiAngelo, LaMelo might reconsider his options. Of course, there is still some question as to whether or not LaMelo will be deemed eligible at all. So it might be moot.

In a way, I kind of feel a bit bad for LiAngelo. On the one hand, he's parlayed his brother's success into a scholarship to an elite university. On the other, I wonder if he'll be brushed aside by his father if he doesn't make an impact in college (let alone the NBA). Having a "failure" can't help the BBB.

JasonEvans
11-11-2017, 11:51 AM
LiAngelo is the middle Ball. He is not nearly as good as his brothers, in part because he's not a PG like they are. Lonzo appears to be the best of the lot, while LaMelo (the youngest) is a very good but not quite elite PG prospect. LiAngelo is a SF recruit who was outside the top-100. Not a bad player, but not likely to light up anyone's draft board either.

LaMelo is currently committed to UCLA. I suspect, though, that if UCLA cut ties with LiAngelo, LaMelo might reconsider his options. Of course, there is still some question as to whether or not LaMelo will be deemed eligible at all. So it might be moot.

In a way, I kind of feel a bit bad for LiAngelo. On the one hand, he's parlayed his brother's success into a scholarship to an elite university. On the other, I wonder if he'll be brushed aside by his father if he doesn't make an impact in college (let alone the NBA). Having a "failure" can't help the BBB.

LaMelo is still a top 10 prospect in his class, though you are right that his eligibility is pretty questionable given the whole sneaker stuff. I'm not sure how his progress or his ratings will be affected by the fact that he will not be playing high school ball any longer due to his father home schooling him.

LiAngelo is significantly less than a top 100 prospect. He's not even in most top 200s. There's no way he gets a UCLA scholarship if it were not for his two top 10 rated brothers.

That said, it is worth noting that the other two guys in this shoplifting scheme were each top 50 or so prospects who made up a significant portion of Alford's highly rated recruiting class. Both of them figured to be significant players at UCLA for the next 4 years. I doubt Alford just wants to jettison them from the program (only to likely see them show up at some other Pac 12 school).

-Jason "my bet is 7 game suspension... meaning they miss a bunch of cupcakes but are back in time for Michigan, Cincy, and especially Kentucky on 12/23" Evans

dudog84
11-11-2017, 01:30 PM
LiAngelo is the middle Ball. He is not nearly as good as his brothers, in part because he's not a PG like they are. Lonzo appears to be the best of the lot, while LaMelo (the youngest) is a very good but not quite elite PG prospect. LiAngelo is a SF recruit who was outside the top-100. Not a bad player, but not likely to light up anyone's draft board either.

LaMelo is currently committed to UCLA. I suspect, though, that if UCLA cut ties with LiAngelo, LaMelo might reconsider his options. Of course, there is still some question as to whether or not LaMelo will be deemed eligible at all. So it might be moot.

In a way, I kind of feel a bit bad for LiAngelo. On the one hand, he's parlayed his brother's success into a scholarship to an elite university. On the other, I wonder if he'll be brushed aside by his father if he doesn't make an impact in college (let alone the NBA). Having a "failure" can't help the BBB.

Do you think we'll be in the mix? :( I hope not. I would expect not.

And call me a cynic, but I doubt these boys chose a highly publicized trip to China for their first foray into shoplifting.

cato
11-11-2017, 01:41 PM
The three players are to be kicked off the team, right???? I mean, how can they remain UCLA basketball players when caught on video shoplifting expensive items of $1,000 or so in three stores? And, by the way, they will fall disastrously behind in their course work and will have to drop out for the semester, right? And, also, they'll be expelled from UCLA for theft and larceny while representing the school, right?

I think we're about to have a test of institutional integrity, and I am not sure UCLA will get a very good score.

I assume UCLA and the whole UC system is doing everything they can to get the kids back into the US. I also assume they will be off the team, and either suspended or expelled once they are lucky enough to get back. But first things first.

MartyClark
11-11-2017, 02:33 PM
"LaMelo is still a top 10 prospect in his class, though you are right that his eligibility is pretty questionable given the whole sneaker stuff. I'm not sure how his progress or his ratings will be affected by the fact that he will not be playing high school ball any longer due to his father home schooling him."

I'm really curious what this "home schooling" looks like for the Ball family.

I know a few families in Colorado that home schooled their kids. They were conservative, religious families and took it seriously. One of my son's best friends from Georgetown grad school was home schooled and her family took it very seriously. She competed successfully in competitive undergrad and grad school environments.

I can't imagine the Ball family doing what it takes to provide this kid with a real education.

53n206
11-11-2017, 03:23 PM
"
I can't imagine the Ball family doing what it takes to provide this kid with a real education.

Why do you say this? Do you have any information that would indicate that the Ball family does not take education seriously? They probably can afford the best tutoring available in their area. Why not give their son the benefit of the best?

MartyClark
11-11-2017, 03:36 PM
Why do you say this? Do you have any information that would indicate that the Ball family does not take education seriously? They probably can afford the best tutoring available in their area. Why not give their son the benefit of the best?

I say it because the available information suggests that LeVar is irresponsible and seeking to gain a financial benefit from his sons' athletic ability. I see no evidence that the family takes education seriously. Do you think the youngest son is being tutored while filming a reality show in China?

BD80
11-12-2017, 02:56 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3OvJrkc7wgE

Not as funny as the first, but still worth watching. Very gentle about LiAngelo's China experience.

This may below in a BBQ thread, due to the "rotissary" chicken.

I found the "LiTaco" comment to be racist, but I'm not allowed to make those judgments.

OldPhiKap
11-12-2017, 03:03 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3OvJrkc7wgE

Not as funny as the first, but still worth watching. Very gentle about LiAngelo's China experience.

This may below in a BBQ thread, due to the "rotissary" chicken.

I found the "LiTaco" comment to be racist, but I'm not allowed to make those judgments.

Great sketch last night, thought it was the best of the two. Both good. (Watched it today on SNL app, not sure when it gets onto YouTube).

As an aside to your second point, Michael Che made a joke during the news last night about having a white Uber driver. There was some nervous laughter. He looked at the audience and said —“you know that’s a racist joke, you just don’t know which way it goes.” THAT was funny.

cato
11-12-2017, 03:45 PM
I say it because the available information suggests that LeVar is irresponsible and seeking to gain a financial benefit from his sons' athletic ability. I see no evidence that the family takes education seriously. Do you think the youngest son is being tutored while filming a reality show in China?

His name is LaVar.

What evidence suggests he’s irresponsible? He certainly likes to talk, but I don’t know how we can guess about his family’s commitment to education.

uh_no
11-12-2017, 03:54 PM
His name is LaVar.

What evidence suggests he’s irresponsible? He certainly likes to talk, but I don’t know how we can guess about his family’s commitment to education.

well, we at least know he instills a great sense of values in his sons, as evidenced by his middle son's shoplifting in china.

moonpie23
11-12-2017, 04:20 PM
well, i'm calling BS on levar's "parenting skills" just because of his statement that it "was no big deal".......

shows what HE thinks is "not a big deal" and tells his kids, by example, that what they did "wasn't a big deal"....

CameronBornAndBred
11-12-2017, 08:31 PM
LaMelo is still a top 10 prospect in his class, though you are right that his eligibility is pretty questionable given the whole sneaker stuff. I'm not sure how his progress or his ratings will be affected by the fact that he will not be playing high school ball any longer due to his father h̶o̶m̶e̶ s̶c̶h̶o̶o̶l̶i̶n̶g̶ h̶i̶m̶ helping him with pop up shops in China.

FIFY

LaMelo better the best PG ever, because if not, China is where he'll be playing after his "graduation".

CDu
11-12-2017, 09:33 PM
LaMelo is still a top 10 prospect in his class, though you are right that his eligibility is pretty questionable given the whole sneaker stuff. I'm not sure how his progress or his ratings will be affected by the fact that he will not be playing high school ball any longer due to his father home schooling him.

LiAngelo is significantly less than a top 100 prospect. He's not even in most top 200s. There's no way he gets a UCLA scholarship if it were not for his two top 10 rated brothers.

That said, it is worth noting that the other two guys in this shoplifting scheme were each top 50 or so prospects who made up a significant portion of Alford's highly rated recruiting class. Both of them figured to be significant players at UCLA for the next 4 years. I doubt Alford just wants to jettison them from the program (only to likely see them show up at some other Pac 12 school).

-Jason "my bet is 7 game suspension... meaning they miss a bunch of cupcakes but are back in time for Michigan, Cincy, and especially Kentucky on 12/23" Evans

Minor quibble, but LaMelo is consensus #17. So a clear step down from where Lonzo was ranked.

JasonEvans
11-12-2017, 10:02 PM
Minor quibble, but LaMelo is consensus #17. So a clear step down from where Lonzo was ranked.

Thanks. He must have dropped. I recall looking a few months back and he was top 10, I think. Not that it really matters. He's an excellent prospect, regardless.

swood1000
11-13-2017, 04:43 AM
On Saturday night, Lonzo Ball became the youngest player in NBA history to notch a triple-double, scoring 19 points, 13 assists and 12 rebounds in the Lakers’ loss to the Milwaukee Bucks, at the age of 20 years and 15 days, besting the record previously held by LeBron James since the 2004-05 season by five days. http://www.realclearlife.com/sports/lakers-lonzo-ball-becomes-youngest-nba-history-notch-triple-double/

CDu
11-13-2017, 05:36 AM
Thanks. He must have dropped. I recall looking a few months back and he was top 10, I think. Not that it really matters. He's an excellent prospect, regardless.

Yes, he is a very good prospect. ESPN (whose ratings are not great) has him #7, so maybe that is what you saw? Anyway, not as good as Lonzo, but very good. And much better than LiAngelo, who UCLA wouldn’t miss at all and was only recruited to get Lonzo.

CrazyNotCrazie
11-13-2017, 09:21 AM
On Saturday night, Lonzo Ball became the youngest player in NBA history to notch a triple-double, scoring 19 points, 13 assists and 12 rebounds in the Lakers’ loss to the Milwaukee Bucks, at the age of 20 years and 15 days, besting the record previously held by LeBron James since the 2004-05 season by five days. http://www.realclearlife.com/sports/lakers-lonzo-ball-becomes-youngest-nba-history-notch-triple-double/

So he just had a birthday which explains his brother's need to get him a present while in China! Candlesticks always make a nice gift...

PackMan97
11-13-2017, 09:56 AM
Is there any update to this story? Last I heard the three UCLA players are making an extended stay in China. I can't imagine how that program is dealing with leaving players behind. The thought of it actually sickens me.

flyingdutchdevil
11-13-2017, 10:00 AM
Is there any update to this story? Last I heard the three UCLA players are making an extended stay in China. I can't imagine how that program is dealing with leaving players behind. The thought of it actually sickens me.

The thought of what sickens you?

UCLA leaving players behind (and I'm sure they have lawyers and a babysitter)? China holding three students under arrest for stealing sunglasses? The program in the dumps because of this? Lavar having to deal with something serious for a change?

This is all on those three kids. You go to another country and you respect their laws. No questions asked.

JasonEvans
11-13-2017, 10:02 AM
Candlesticks always make a nice gift...

...Maybe a place-setting or maybe a silverware pattern.

JasonEvans
11-13-2017, 10:04 AM
You go to another country and you respect their laws.

And what they did would be just as illegal in the US too. Sure, they might have made bail quicker and the process might be a bit more fair to the accused than it is in China, but these guys knew they were breaking the law, knew they were stealing, and they deserve very little sympathy at this point.

PackMan97
11-13-2017, 10:10 AM
The thought of what sickens you?

UCLA leaving players behind (and I'm sure they have lawyers and a babysitter)? China holding three students under arrest for stealing sunglasses? The program in the dumps because of this? Lavar having to deal with something serious for a change?

This is all on those three kids. You go to another country and you respect their laws. No questions asked.

I have no sympathy for the kids that did broke the law, They knew better, and they should definitely have known better in Communist China.

I feel bad for everyone else that is affected by this. I'm thinking of how it must feel as a coach to leave players behind knowing they got into trouble on your watch. Or how it feels as a teammate to watch a friend get into trouble and have no idea when they are coming home again. Or how it feels as a parent to know your kid did something in the wrong place and might have changed the path of their life forever.

flyingdutchdevil
11-13-2017, 10:12 AM
I have no sympathy for the kids that did broke the law, They knew better, and they should definitely have known better in Communist China.

I feel bad for everyone else that is affected by this. I'm thinking of how it must feel as a coach to leave players behind knowing they got into trouble on your watch. Or how it feels as a teammate to watch a friend get into trouble and have no idea when they are coming home again. Or how it feels as a parent to know your kid did something in the wrong place and might have changed the path of their life forever.

This I agree with. IMO, UCLA/parents need to get involved. Get the kids back to the US. Then cut them from the program once they're back on US soil.

MCFinARL
11-13-2017, 10:21 AM
The thought of what sickens you?

UCLA leaving players behind (and I'm sure they have lawyers and a babysitter)? China holding three students under arrest for stealing sunglasses? The program in the dumps because of this? Lavar having to deal with something serious for a change?

This is all on those three kids. You go to another country and you respect their laws. No questions asked.

Yes--and last time I heard, shoplifting was illegal in the US as well, so it's not like they might not have realized what they were doing was against the law.

Edit: I see jasonEvans made this point faster than I did.

sagegrouse
11-13-2017, 10:29 AM
And what they did would be just as illegal in the US too. Sure, they might have made bail quicker and the process might be a bit more fair to the accused than it is in China, but these guys knew they were breaking the law, knew they were stealing, and they deserve very little sympathy at this point.

I agree fully with you, Jason, but I am still wondering why you think a 5-8 game suspension is the appropriate punishment from the school, when I think the players who stole valuable objects on an official UCLA trip to a foreign country should be kicked off the team and expelled from school. I mean, this is horribly embarrassing for UCLA and UCLA athletics.

OldPhiKap
11-13-2017, 10:36 AM
So he just had a birthday which explains his brother's need to get him a present while in China! Candlesticks always make a nice gift...

But where are we going to get a live chicken or rooster to lift the curse?

JasonEvans
11-13-2017, 10:49 AM
I agree fully with you, Jason, but I am still wondering why you think a 5-8 game suspension is the appropriate punishment from the school, when I think the players who stole valuable objects on an official UCLA trip to a foreign country should be kicked off the team and expelled from school. I mean, this is horribly embarrassing for UCLA and UCLA athletics.

Because I believe in second chances. These guys are all freshmen (18 or 19 years old) who do not (to the best of my knowledge) have a history of bad behavior. They do not deserve to have their lives ruined over this. I think it would be appropriate for them to be allowed to stay in school and even play some hoops... but with the caveat that they are on an extremely short leash and the next time they break any rule (or break a law) they are gone.

-Jason "JMHO... I am also trying to duplicate what Alford will do considering he really wants these guys to be a part of his program long term" Evans

swood1000
11-13-2017, 10:51 AM
ESPN is reporting that there is surveillance footage of Ball and fellow UCLA freshmen players Jalen Hill and Cody Riley shoplifting from three stores inside a retail center near the team hotel in Hangzhou, China. That may not be good news for those wanting a quick release.

Yahoo (https://sports.yahoo.com/liangelo-ball-ucla-teammates-face-3-10-years-prison-convicted-shoplifting-013958780.html) has gotten the opinion of William Nee, a Hong Kong-based researcher of the Chinese court system for Amnesty International.


Nee added that the United States consulate working with local attorneys may be able to get a resolution to their case sooner, although nothing is certain under the Chinese system.

“I would say they could be in quite a bit of trouble if they have solid proof that they shoplifted,” Nee told Yahoo Sports. “However, part of it will depend on whether their lawyers, the university, or the U.S. consulate can advocate and negotiate on their behalf.”

However, Wen Yu, an attorney based in Guangzhou in Southern China, told Yahoo Sports that if “police have some solid evidence like CCTV video and/or the stolen good discovered from their hotel rooms,” then options may be limited. “The Shanghai consulate can work on this but if the evidence is sound, there is not much for them to do.

“The police will be very careful to handle this case at such a sensitive time,” Wen Yu continued. “Without instructions from above, they will not let the students out easily because the authorities want to prove foreigners are treated equally here.”

Atlanta Duke
11-13-2017, 11:06 AM
Favors have been requested at the highest level to help out these guys

Trump personally asked Xi Jinping to help resolve case of UCLA basketball players arrested in China

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/post-politics/wp/2017/11/13/trump-personally-asked-xi-jinping-to-help-resolve-case-of-ucla-basketball-players-arrested-in-china/?utm_term=.b76c2b2d0c77

swood1000
11-13-2017, 11:42 AM
Favors have been requested at the highest level to help out these guys

Trump personally asked Xi Jinping to help resolve case of UCLA basketball players arrested in China

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/post-politics/wp/2017/11/13/trump-personally-asked-xi-jinping-to-help-resolve-case-of-ucla-basketball-players-arrested-in-china/?utm_term=.b76c2b2d0c77

According to the article, "Xi promised to look into the case and ensure that the players are treated fairly..." which might not be exactly what they would want. However, it may do the trick.

Unfortunately for Stuart Foster, an American sociology professor from South Carolina, there was no Presidential mediation back in 2013 when he was convicted of theft in China. He said “Suffering from a serious head injury after a collision with a bus, and while in a dreamlike state, I took a large sum of money from a colleague at the Guangdong University of Foreign Studies, where I taught.” He spent 280 days in a Chinese prison and described his experience here (https://www.prisonlegalnews.org/news/2014/jun/22/inside-chinese-prison-americans-perspective/). It is also described in this NPR article (https://www.npr.org/sections/parallels/2014/05/29/314597050/u-s-teacher-i-did-seven-months-of-forced-labor-in-a-chinese-jail).


In the middle of the night the PSB took me to White Cloud District Detention Center in the city of Guangzhou, where I would spend the next 280 days. I was in shock and denial as I was processed and then taken down a long dank corridor to my cell. Opening the corridor door to cell B218 revealed an empty, moldy room the size of a racquetball court. As I was pushed inside I was full of terror. The corridor door closed and a side door to the “inner cell” opened, with native Chinese prisoners motioning me inward to the sleeping and working quarters.

The inner cell was the same size but held 30 prisoners, all sleeping on the concrete floor. There were no blankets or pillows and the room was so crowded that most prisoners slept on their sides with arms draped over each other like embracing couples. Near the back was an older prisoner indicating he was making room for me to lie down. …Each day at 6:30 a.m. the cell leader woke everyone by clapping his hands to begin another routine day. Thirty men lined up to brush their teeth while simultaneously using a single hole in the ground as our only toilet.

Edit: maybe Presidential mediation reduces it from 280 days to 30 days.

swood1000
11-13-2017, 03:06 PM
Here’s the part I don’t get. According to the NCAA (https://twitter.com/darrenrovell/status/903357845676199936/photo/1):

"Generally speaking, a college athlete or prospect paid for use of their athletics reputation or ability risks their future eligibility in that sport. This includes profiting from the sale of items bearing the young person's name. NCAA rules, however, do allow prospects to promote commercial products prior to enrollment provided it is not for pay."
-- NCAA spokesperson Emily James

However, the Bylaws do allow the person to be paid for permitting the use of his name to promote products, as long as he is not paid after he becomes a student-athlete.

12.5.2 Nonpermissible.

12.5.2.1 Advertisements and Promotions After Becoming a Student-Athlete. After becoming a student-athlete, an individual shall not be eligible for participation in intercollegiate athletics if the individual:
(a) Accepts any remuneration for or permits the use of his or her name or picture to advertise, recommend or promote directly the sale or use of a commercial product or service of any kind; or
(b) Receives remuneration for endorsing a commercial product or service through the individual’s use of such product or service.

12.5.2.1.1 Exceptions. The individual’s eligibility will not be affected, provided the individual participated in such activities prior to enrollment and the individual:
(a) Meets the conditions set forth in Bylaw 12.5.1.3 that would permit continuation of such activities;
or
(b) Takes appropriate steps upon becoming a student-athlete to retract permission for the use of his or her name or picture and ceases receipt of any remuneration for such an arrangement.

What am I missing?

sagegrouse
11-13-2017, 03:42 PM
Here’s the part I don’t get. According to the NCAA (https://twitter.com/darrenrovell/status/903357845676199936/photo/1):

"Generally speaking, a college athlete or prospect paid for use of their athletics reputation or ability risks their future eligibility in that sport. This includes profiting from the sale of items bearing the young person's name. NCAA rules, however, do allow prospects to promote commercial products prior to enrollment provided it is not for pay."
-- NCAA spokesperson Emily James

However, the Bylaws do allow the person to be paid for permitting the use of his name to promote products, as long as he is not paid after he becomes a student-athlete.

12.5.2 Nonpermissible.

12.5.2.1 Advertisements and Promotions After Becoming a Student-Athlete. After becoming a student-athlete, an individual shall not be eligible for participation in intercollegiate athletics if the individual:
(a) Accepts any remuneration for or permits the use of his or her name or picture to advertise, recommend or promote directly the sale or use of a commercial product or service of any kind; or
(b) Receives remuneration for endorsing a commercial product or service through the individual’s use of such product or service.

12.5.2.1.1 Exceptions. The individual’s eligibility will not be affected, provided the individual participated in such activities prior to enrollment and the individual:
(a) Meets the conditions set forth in Bylaw 12.5.1.3 that would permit continuation of such activities;
or
(b) Takes appropriate steps upon becoming a student-athlete to retract permission for the use of his or her name or picture and ceases receipt of any remuneration for such an arrangement.

What am I missing?

Not the same thing as the youngest Ball, but an example of how rules have changed: Jeremy Bloom, a champion freestyle skier, made a lot of money and and also competed in football for the Colorado Buffaloes 10-12 years ago. The NCAA ruled him ineligible after two seasons, when he returned to competitive skiing, but then changed the rules to allow sports earnings, as long as they were not in their college sport. So. Bloom could then have played football but not competed on the ski team.

It looks like Jeremy was drafted by the NFL and played one season for the Eagles.

The Wiki page for Bloom claims his sister Molly is the person played by Jessica Chastain in the new movie, Molly's Game.

I do remember Bloom; otherwise I would conclude the whole story, including the sister, was a hoax.

dudog84
11-13-2017, 03:57 PM
Favors have been requested at the highest level to help out these guys

Trump personally asked Xi Jinping to help resolve case of UCLA basketball players arrested in China

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/post-politics/wp/2017/11/13/trump-personally-asked-xi-jinping-to-help-resolve-case-of-ucla-basketball-players-arrested-in-china/?utm_term=.b76c2b2d0c77

Good to know our president is being asked to waste precious influence on these numbskulls. Oh, to be born (or I should say athletically endowed) to privilege...

ChillinDuke
11-13-2017, 03:58 PM
Here’s the part I don’t get. According to the NCAA (https://twitter.com/darrenrovell/status/903357845676199936/photo/1):

"Generally speaking, a college athlete or prospect paid for use of their athletics reputation or ability risks their future eligibility in that sport. This includes profiting from the sale of items bearing the young person's name. NCAA rules, however, do allow prospects to promote commercial products prior to enrollment provided it is not for pay."
-- NCAA spokesperson Emily James

<snip>

Regarding the bolded, doesn't the proviso allow it if it's not for pay? Also, strictly speaking, doesn't the product not bear his name?

I'm no lawyer, but I'm not seeing explicitly why this is against the rules. Although it feels against them in spirit.

- Chillin

swood1000
11-13-2017, 06:05 PM
Regarding the bolded, doesn't the proviso allow it if it's not for pay? Also, strictly speaking, doesn't the product not bear his name?

I'm no lawyer, but I'm not seeing explicitly why this is against the rules. Although it feels against them in spirit.

- Chillin

Yes, but 12.5.2.1 refers to a person who "receives remuneration" in exchange for promoting or endorsing a product, and 12.5.2.1.1 says that such a person will still be eligible as long as “upon becoming a student-athlete” the person “ceases receipt of any remuneration for such an arrangement.” So where does Emily James get the "provided it is not for pay" requirement, asserting that the person cannot have received any remuneration in return for promoting or endorsing the product?

Duke95
11-13-2017, 06:25 PM
I agree fully with you, Jason, but I am still wondering why you think a 5-8 game suspension is the appropriate punishment from the school, when I think the players who stole valuable objects on an official UCLA trip to a foreign country should be kicked off the team and expelled from school. I mean, this is horribly embarrassing for UCLA and UCLA athletics.


How does ruining three kids' lives over a pair of sunglasses benefit anyone? Seriously, let's have some perspective here. They made a stupid mistake. They deserve a suspension and to do some community service.

fidel
11-13-2017, 06:57 PM
So he just had a birthday which explains his brother's need to get him a present while in China! Candlesticks always make a nice gift...

Wedding gift. They make a nice wedding gift.

MartyClark
11-13-2017, 07:15 PM
Not the same thing as the youngest Ball, but an example of how rules have changed: Jeremy Bloom, a champion freestyle skier, made a lot of money and and also competed in football for the Colorado Buffaloes 10-12 years ago. The NCAA ruled him ineligible after two seasons, when he returned to competitive skiing, but then changed the rules to allow sports earnings, as long as they were not in their college sport. So. Bloom could then have played football but not competed on the ski team.

It looks like Jeremy was drafted by the NFL and played one season for the Eagles.

The Wiki page for Bloom claims his sister Molly is the person played by Jessica Chastain in the new movie, Molly's Game.

I do remember Bloom; otherwise I would conclude the whole story, including the sister, was a hoax.

I remember Jeremy Bloom. He was a great college return man and wide receiver and a world class skier. One of my sons was friends with him at Colorado. As his coach said, Jeremy was so quick you couldn't catch him in phone booth.

You are right, Molly's Game is based on his sister. I have a client who was involved in the production of the film.

MartyClark
11-13-2017, 07:23 PM
How does ruining three kids' lives over a pair of sunglasses benefit anyone? Seriously, let's have some perspective here. They made a stupid mistake. They deserve a suspension and to do some community service.

Agree, they deserve a stiff suspension - I don't think 5-8 games is enough. They have embarrassed their university and, to a lesser degree, this country. I was a stupid college kid 40 years ago and may have done the same thing.

I think they should have a 12-15 game suspension, serious academic and community service requirements and an obligation to give a sincere and meaningful apology to China, their University and their team.

Assuming they spend a few weeks in confinement in their luxury hotel in China, I'm not sure how they catch up on their classes.

PackMan97
11-13-2017, 07:45 PM
How does ruining three kids' lives over a pair of sunglasses benefit anyone? Seriously, let's have some perspective here. They made a stupid mistake. They deserve a suspension and to do some community service.

Unfortunately it is not our society that will decide what happens. It will be a communist China.

BD80
11-13-2017, 07:47 PM
How does ruining three kids' lives over a pair of sunglasses benefit anyone? Seriously, let's have some perspective here. They made a stupid mistake. They deserve a suspension and to do some community service.

How does letting them skate benefit anyone?

Top recruits tend to have a sense of entitlement, and it seems to me LiAngelo is being raised in the most entitled of circumstances - he got a scholarship because of his family instead of his own qualifications, and is on the way to being a Kardashian- level celebrity through no merit of his own.

To expect that "privilege" to extend into China and expect the President of the United States to intercede on his behalf, is beyond a distorted sense of entitlement. Now, just give them a slap on the wrist and validate that feeling of entitlement?

mgtr
11-13-2017, 08:13 PM
How does letting them skate benefit anyone?

Top recruits tend to have a sense of entitlement, and it seems to me LiAngelo is being raised in the most entitled of circumstances - he got a scholarship because of his family instead of his own qualifications, and is on the way to being a Kardashian- level celebrity through no merit of his own.

To expect that "privilege" to extend into China and expect the President of the United States to intercede on his behalf, is beyond a distorted sense of entitlement. Now, just give them a slap on the wrist and validate that feeling of entitlement?

I am on board with this kind of thinking, with one exception -- these kids are on foreign soil, maybe even enemy soil in some sense. They had to know what they did was wrong, and they have to suffer some consequences. They have embarrassed themselves, their team, their university, and their country. I would much rather see those consequences imposed by UCLA and the US rather than by China, so step one is to extricate them from China. As for punishment, I don't think you can let it slide, but they don't need to have their entire lives ruined. Some suspension, both from basketball and the University. I don't have enough info to make an accurate decision, but others do. Good luck, boys.

duke4ever19
11-13-2017, 08:41 PM
How does letting them skate benefit anyone?

Top recruits tend to have a sense of entitlement, and it seems to me LiAngelo is being raised in the most entitled of circumstances - he got a scholarship because of his family instead of his own qualifications, and is on the way to being a Kardashian- level celebrity through no merit of his own.

To expect that "privilege" to extend into China and expect the President of the United States to intercede on his behalf, is beyond a distorted sense of entitlement. Now, just give them a slap on the wrist and validate that feeling of entitlement?


Who is arguing that this is what they think or expect?

Sure, they may feel entitled, but I doubt that extended to "Eh, the President of the United States of America will fix this for us."

Arrogance and stupidity led to their attempt to try shoplifting. They clearly had no "Plan B" in case they got caught.

AtlDuke72
11-13-2017, 09:02 PM
How does ruining three kids' lives over a pair of sunglasses benefit anyone? Seriously, let's have some perspective here. They made a stupid mistake. They deserve a suspension and to do some community service.

Do you know anything about these “kids” or really what they do? Stealing from three stores in China seems to be something more than a “stupid mistake”. Maybe they should get treated like anybody else would be treated rather than excused because they are star athletes.

sagegrouse
11-13-2017, 10:13 PM
How does ruining three kids' lives over a pair of sunglasses benefit anyone? Seriously, let's have some perspective here. They made a stupid mistake. They deserve a suspension and to do some community service.

"Ruining three kids' lives?" Duke95, do you ever read my posts before commenting? What I advocated was that the three be expelled from UCLA and, of course, kicked off the basketball team. Then they start over someplace else. I don't think they should get a 5-8 game suspension, during which they are coddled like pampered athletes. There's no permanent damage from being forced to find another school -- and it will be a good lesson.

Maybe we should ask Doug Gottlieb what he thinks. He seems to have recovered from a "forced move" from Notre Dame to Oklahoma State.

budwom
11-14-2017, 07:05 AM
"Ruining three kids' lives?" Duke95, do you ever read my posts before commenting? What I advocated was that the three be expelled from UCLA and, of course, kicked off the basketball team. Then they start over someplace else. I don't think they should get a 5-8 game suspension, during which they are coddled like pampered athletes. There's no permanent damage from being forced to find another school -- and it will be a good lesson.

Maybe we should ask Doug Gottlieb what he thinks. He seems to have recovered from a "forced move" from Notre Dame to Oklahoma State.

And it is important to keep in mind that the narrative has changed significantly. Now it appears that it wasn't just some kids nicking sunglasses, it was a serial shoplifting spree through three stores. As such, the dumb mistake notion spring a leak.
I'm sure they won't be jailed, I do realize they didn't kill anyone, but I think this was a lot more than one simple mistake. Having said that, I expect UCLA to still give them parade upon their return from hotel incarceration.

OldPhiKap
11-14-2017, 07:17 AM
And it is important to keep in mind that the narrative has changed significantly. Now it appears that it wasn't just some kids nicking sunglasses, it was a serial shoplifting spree through three stores. As such, the dumb mistake notion spring a leak.
I'm sure they won't be jailed, I do realize they didn't kill anyone, but I think this was a lot more than one simple mistake. Having said that, I expect UCLA to still give them parade upon their return from hotel incarceration.

If I was a Cleveland State fan, I would be concerned right now.

AtlDuke72
11-14-2017, 07:29 AM
"Ruining three kids' lives?" Duke95, do you ever read my posts before commenting? What I advocated was that the three be expelled from UCLA and, of course, kicked off the basketball team. Then they start over someplace else. I don't think they should get a 5-8 game suspension, during which they are coddled like pampered athletes. There's no permanent damage from being forced to find another school -- and it will be a good lesson.

I agree completely. If Duke players had done this i expect and hope that they would be off of the team.

DangerDevil
11-14-2017, 07:45 AM
According to ESPN they are headed home:

“UCLA freshmen LiAngelo Ball, Cody Riley and Jalen Hill, who have been detained in China on suspicion of shoplifting, are being allowed to return to the United States on Tuesday, according to the Wall Street Journal.

The players were seen checking into a Los Angeles-bound Delta flight at Shanghai's Pudong International Airport, airline staff told the Wall Street Journal.”

Dr. Rosenrosen
11-14-2017, 08:06 AM
According to ESPN they are headed home:

“UCLA freshmen LiAngelo Ball, Cody Riley and Jalen Hill, who have been detained in China on suspicion of shoplifting, are being allowed to return to the United States on Tuesday, according to the Wall Street Journal.

The players were seen checking into a Los Angeles-bound Delta flight at Shanghai's Pudong International Airport, airline staff told the Wall Street Journal.”
Wonder if Delta found them last row, middle seat accommodations...

budwom
11-14-2017, 08:06 AM
According to ESPN they are headed home:

“UCLA freshmen LiAngelo Ball, Cody Riley and Jalen Hill, who have been detained in China on suspicion of shoplifting, are being allowed to return to the United States on Tuesday, according to the Wall Street Journal.

The players were seen checking into a Los Angeles-bound Delta flight at Shanghai's Pudong International Airport, airline staff told the Wall Street Journal.”

they should be forced to sit in the new Economy Minus seats for the flight, balancing their carryons on their heads....just punishment. And no chicken or lasagna either.

jv001
11-14-2017, 08:07 AM
"Ruining three kids' lives?" Duke95, do you ever read my posts before commenting? What I advocated was that the three be expelled from UCLA and, of course, kicked off the basketball team. Then they start over someplace else. I don't think they should get a 5-8 game suspension, during which they are coddled like pampered athletes. There's no permanent damage from being forced to find another school -- and it will be a good lesson.

Maybe we should ask Doug Gottlieb what he thinks. He seems to have recovered from a "forced move" from Notre Dame to Oklahoma State.

I think the odds are 50-50 that the kids come home and are ashamed of what they did. If they have the attitude that they did something stupid that was against the law(ours and China's) and are humbled by it, then I think this may even help them. But they may come back with the attitude; we really pulled one over on the nation of China and snicker and joke while around their friends, then a lesson in life wasn't learned. I hope they learned that lesson in life. GoDuke!

jv001
11-14-2017, 08:09 AM
they should be forced to sit in the new Economy Minus seats for the flight, balancing their carryons on their heads...just punishment. And no chicken or lasagna either.

They may be denied the choice of the next team meal. You know, like punishment that's passed out at OJU. GoDuke!

Troublemaker
11-14-2017, 08:16 AM
Unfortunately it is not our society that will decide what happens. It will be a communist China.

The Big Baller's son was probably *this* close to suffering ironic punishment, having to work in a forced labor camp making Nikes. But I'm glad the U.S. got involved and brought them home.

Dr. Rosenrosen
11-14-2017, 08:29 AM
I think the odds are 50-50 that the kids come home and are ashamed of what they did. If they have the attitude that they did something stupid that was against the law(ours and China's) and are humbled by it, then I think this may even help them. But they may come back with the attitude; we really pulled one over on the nation of China and snicker and joke while around their friends, then a lesson in life wasn't learned. I hope they learned that lesson in life. GoDuke!
I assume LaVar will continue to consider all of this "no big deal." No such thing as bad press in his world.

Duke95
11-14-2017, 09:21 AM
Do you know anything about these “kids” or really what they do? Stealing from three stores in China seems to be something more than a “stupid mistake”. Maybe they should get treated like anybody else would be treated rather than excused because they are star athletes.

Who is excusing them? A 5-8 game suspension plus community service isn't an excuse.

Kicking them off the team and expelling them is just stupid. They're going to be permanently tagged with that. Nobody benefits except some angry old people who think "those dang kids these days are so entitled."
And even if they are "entitled", whose fault is that? Aren't coaches the ones camping outside their homes? Flying in on helicopters to see them? Aren't fans the ones breathlessly waiting for the latest bit of recruiting news?

Duke95
11-14-2017, 09:26 AM
"Ruining three kids' lives?" Duke95, do you ever read my posts before commenting? What I advocated was that the three be expelled from UCLA and, of course, kicked off the basketball team. Then they start over someplace else. I don't think they should get a 5-8 game suspension, during which they are coddled like pampered athletes. There's no permanent damage from being forced to find another school -- and it will be a good lesson.

Being expelled and kicked off the team is no big deal and they can "just start over someplace else" in your world? It's a significantly negative mark on their records and they lose an entire year.

Let go of the anger and think a little about the repercussions. Making them do community service helps everyone: it helps them get a perspective and it helps those being served.

Ultrarunner
11-14-2017, 09:35 AM
Who is excusing them? A 5-8 game suspension plus community service isn't an excuse.

Kicking them off the team and expelling them is just stupid. They're going to be permanently tagged with that. Nobody benefits except some angry old people who think "those dang kids these days are so entitled."
And even if they are "entitled", whose fault is that? Aren't coaches the ones camping outside their homes? Flying in on helicopters to see them? Aren't fans the ones breathlessly waiting for the latest bit of recruiting news?

If they failed to uphold the standards of the program, removing them from the team is an appropriate response. Yes, they permanently are tagged with the punishment, but they are the ones that committed a criminal act in a foreign country bringing shame to their teammates, their coach, and their institution.

The message isn't for them, though. It is for any other player who wishes to play for UCLA. "We have standards and we will expect you to adhere to them. No cheating, no stealing, and yes, we expect you to go to class."

rsvman
11-14-2017, 09:36 AM
My $0.02.

It's more than a "mistake." I was young and dumb once, too, but I never stole anything from a store.


One would hope that they would be treated the same way anybody else would be treated, and that they will be punished the same way anybody else would be punished who had committed the same crime. I realize that this is probably too much to hope for. I don't think the system should be harder on them because they are athletes and in the public eye, but at the same time it should not be easier on them, either.

Generally speaking, when "mistakes" are let go, more "mistakes" are bred.

jv001
11-14-2017, 09:45 AM
My $0.02.

It's more than a "mistake." I was young and dumb once, too, but I never stole anything from a store.


One would hope that they would be treated the same way anybody else would be treated, and that they will be punished the same way anybody else would be punished who had committed the same crime. I realize that this is probably too much to hope for. I don't think the system should be harder on them because they are athletes and in the public eye, but at the same time it should not be easier on them, either.

Generally speaking, when "mistakes" are let go, more "mistakes" are bred.

Especially when the dad of one of the kids thinks and says to the world, it was no big deal. GoDuke!

Duke95
11-14-2017, 09:48 AM
For those blindly advocating "zero tolerance" I'll refer you to the bottom of page 2 of this document.

https://idea.gseis.ucla.edu/publications/files/suspension.pdf

There are better ways of teaching kids than kicking them out of school for one stupid incident such as this. The goal here is to teach and reform.

I sincerely hope some of you angrily advocating zero tolerance here are unaffiliated with any educational profession.

Duke95
11-14-2017, 09:49 AM
Especially when the dad of one of the kids thinks and says to the world, it was no big deal. GoDuke!

Ah. So, it's about being angry at the dad. I see. :rolleyes:

Ultrarunner
11-14-2017, 09:55 AM
For those blindly advocating "zero tolerance" I'll refer you to the bottom of page 2 of this document.

https://idea.gseis.ucla.edu/publications/files/suspension.pdf

There are better ways of teaching kids than kicking them out of school for one stupid incident such as this. The goal here is to teach and reform.

I sincerely hope some of you angrily advocating zero tolerance here are unaffiliated with any educational profession.

I'll read the link document later as I have to leave for work. Two points, though: first, I'm an not angry; second, the term zero tolerance is null in this conversation. You yourself have suggested a course of corrective punishment which would make you equally guilty of the 'zero tolerance' mindset you set up as a straw man so that you might smite him.

DukieInKansas
11-14-2017, 10:05 AM
A mistake is when you are picking up items and slip a small item in your pocket as your hands are full with the intent of pulling it out and paying for it when you get to the register. Shoplifting is when you take something with no intention of paying for it - that is more than a mistake. Hopefully, it is something that everyone is taught at a young age. By age 18, or however old these 3 players are, you should know that shoplifting is against the law. I don't feel it is a mistake.

As to what the punishment should be, I switch back and forth between suspension for a period of time and kicking them off the team/out of school. How they handle themselves when they return to school, as it appears they are doing, would factor into the punishment. They better be very contrite and show that they have learned a lesson from this. If they are allowed to continue on the team, they better toe the line and live by every rule that is set. A second infraction, no matter how small, should have an immediate consequence.

My $0.02.

Duke95
11-14-2017, 10:06 AM
I'll read the link document later as I have to leave for work. Two points, though: first, I'm an not angry; second, the term zero tolerance is null in this conversation. You yourself have suggested a course of corrective punishment which would make you equally guilty of the 'zero tolerance' mindset you set up as a straw man so that you might smite him.

In case it's not clear, which it apparently isn't:

Zero tolerance = expulsion
Some tolerance = 5-8 game suspension, community service
Absolution = no punishment

I'm advocating for some tolerance.
Hope this clears it up.

rasputin
11-14-2017, 10:26 AM
I was watching the UCLA-Georgia Tech game the other night. Bill Walton was expressing his anger at these kids who have tarnished the reputation of his university, not to mention the country, and the whole human race (which Walton said several times).

He then went on to say something that surprised me: that these kids would never have done anything like this in their own country.

Really?

Duke95
11-14-2017, 10:33 AM
I was watching the UCLA-Georgia Tech game the other night. Bill Walton was expressing his anger at these kids who have tarnished the reputation of his university, not to mention the country, and the whole human race (which Walton said several times).

He then went on to say something that surprised me: that these kids would never have done anything like this in their own country.

Really?

Bill Walton ran out of f***s to give a long time ago. He's awesome to watch on TV, especially after a few drinks. Total stream-of-consciousness. The William Faulkner of college basketball commentators.

rsvman
11-14-2017, 10:34 AM
For those blindly advocating "zero tolerance" I'll refer you to the bottom of page 2 of this document.

https://idea.gseis.ucla.edu/publications/files/suspension.pdf

There are better ways of teaching kids than kicking them out of school for one stupid incident such as this. The goal here is to teach and reform.

I sincerely hope some of you angrily advocating zero tolerance here are unaffiliated with any educational profession.

Just to be clear, I am not advocating "zero tolerance." I'm just saying that this is not a mistake, and that absolution would be a bad idea.

Duke95
11-14-2017, 10:38 AM
Just to be clear, I am not advocating "zero tolerance." I'm just saying that this is not a mistake, and that absolution would be a bad idea.

Well, it wasn't an accident, but it was a mistake. I don't think absolution is the right answer either, but a 5-8 game suspension plus community service would send the right message.

cato
11-14-2017, 11:02 AM
For those blindly advocating "zero tolerance" I'll refer you to the bottom of page 2 of this document.

https://idea.gseis.ucla.edu/publications/files/suspension.pdf

There are better ways of teaching kids than kicking them out of school for one stupid incident such as this. The goal here is to teach and reform.

I sincerely hope some of you angrily advocating zero tolerance here are unaffiliated with any educational profession.

You seem to be the angry one here. Or at least calling people names and making this personal.

At any rate, assuming the players committed the equivalent of a felony while representing UCLA, the NCAA and our country in China during a presidential visit, I think it would be appropriate to dismiss the players from the team. I see no need to expel them from UCLA. A suspension with the right to come back at a later date would seem appropriate.

I also see no reason why they could not work their way back onto the team. But merely suspending them from preconference games confirms LaVar’s view that this is “no big deal.” If that is the case, then that would be true only for athletes and a select few other ultra privileged students.

fraggler
11-14-2017, 11:23 AM
Well, they are on their way home. So no criminal repercussions for them in China. We shall see if anyone in the US makes a stand for better behavior. I do wonder what Trump promised to get China to completely drop the charges.
https://deadspin.com/liangelo-ball-and-fellow-ucla-shoplifters-are-coming-ho-1820435559

budwom
11-14-2017, 11:38 AM
In the good old days, Sam Gilbert would have bought the UCLA players all the sunglasses and crap they wanted, thereby avoiding all this legal crap and scrutiny.

flyingdutchdevil
11-14-2017, 11:41 AM
In the good old days, Sam Gilbert would have bought the UCLA players all the sunglasses and crap they wanted, thereby avoiding all this legal crap and scrutiny.

Just another reason to pay players? ;)

sagegrouse
11-14-2017, 11:46 AM
In case it's not clear, which it apparently isn't:

Zero tolerance = expulsion
Some tolerance = 5-8 game suspension, community service
Absolution = no punishment

I'm advocating for some tolerance.
Hope this clears it up.

Ah, yes, the "Bed of Procrustes," which adopts the object ("some tolerance," in your case) to fit a predetermined stance. I would say that "zero tolerance" would subject these three players to the full weight of the Chinese justice system and probably a significant jail term. They got off scot-free -- that's "absolution" in my book. I mean, guys, gals, whomever -- this was a crime spree if reports are accurate.

I wouldn't want them at my school. I expect, now that Trump has weighed in (although not condoning what happened), they may get a reprieve from the school and be allowed to stay.

I tend to take a hard line on theft. There was a theft ring at Duke when I was in school many years ago, which stole about 20 typewriters (I dunno, maybe it was "inkwells and quills") and pawned them mostly over in Raleigh. They were caught and thrown out of school. I was amazed and not a bit pleased a year later to see one of the perpetrators back on campus. Apparently they received suspensions not expulsions.

swood1000
11-14-2017, 11:47 AM
I do wonder what Trump promised to get China to completely drop the charges.

It didn’t cost the Chinese anything, and it probably reduced the pressure on China to accede to other U.S. requests, like the one to allow the widow of Chinese dissident and Nobel Prize winner Liu Xiaobo to leave the country (https://thediplomat.com/2017/07/us-calls-on-china-to-release-liu-xiaobos-wife/), and the one to ease up on the persecution of Falun Gong (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persecution_of_Falun_Gong), and the one to be reasonable about sovereignty around man-made islands in the South China Sea.

English
11-14-2017, 11:50 AM
Well, it wasn't an accident, but it was a mistake. I don't think absolution is the right answer either, but a 5-8 game suspension plus community service would send the right message.

All grand thefts are mistakes if you get caught, I suppose.

DangerDevil
11-14-2017, 12:18 PM
Ah, yes, the "Bed of Procrustes," which adopts the object ("some tolerance," in your case) to fit a predetermined stance. I would say that "zero tolerance" would subject these three players to the full weight of the Chinese justice system and probably a significant jail term. They got off scot-free -- that's "absolution" in my book. I mean, guys, gals, whomever -- this was a crime spree if reports are accurate.

I wouldn't want them at my school. I expect, now that Trump has weighed in (although not condoning what happened), they may get a reprieve from the school and be allowed to stay.

I tend to take a hard line on theft. There was a theft ring at Duke when I was in school many years ago, which stole about 20 typewriters (I dunno, maybe it was "inkwells and quills") and pawned them mostly over in Raleigh. They were caught and thrown out of school. I was amazed and not a bit pleased a year later to see one of the perpetrators back on campus. Apparently they received suspensions not expulsions.

I agree 100%, zero tolerance would be getting the full penalty under Chinese law. I am happy that 3 American kids get to avoid that punishment whether they are athletes or not. However if they broke the law while representing UCLA, college basketball, and Americans in general, then I think they need to get more than a minor penalty.

mph
11-14-2017, 12:18 PM
they should be forced to sit in the new Economy Minus seats for the flight, balancing their carryons on their heads...just punishment. And no chicken or lasagna either.

Making them eat the economy chicken or lasagna would be the greater punishment.

Duke95
11-14-2017, 12:28 PM
In the good old days, Sam Gilbert would have bought the UCLA players all the sunglasses and crap they wanted, thereby avoiding all this legal crap and scrutiny.

Truth. Make Sam Gilbert Great Again.

AtlDuke72
11-14-2017, 12:34 PM
Being expelled and kicked off the team is no big deal and they can "just start over someplace else" in your world? It's a significantly negative mark on their records and they lose an entire year.

Let go of the anger and think a little about the repercussions. Making them do community service helps everyone: it helps them get a perspective and it helps those being served.

Committing felonies in a foreign country while on a school sponsored trip does tend to leave a negative mark on a person's record. Losing an entire year ( actually not being allowed to play on the school team for a year) is a lot less than punishment than most felonies result in. These are not freshman in high school. I guess you are right . . . it is everyone else's fault for treating them as star athletes.

Duke95
11-14-2017, 12:41 PM
Ah, yes, the "Bed of Procrustes," which adopts the object ("some tolerance," in your case) to fit a predetermined stance. I would say that "zero tolerance" would subject these three players to the full weight of the Chinese justice system and probably a significant jail term. They got off scot-free -- that's "absolution" in my book. I mean, guys, gals, whomever -- this was a crime spree if reports are accurate.

I wouldn't want them at my school. I expect, now that Trump has weighed in (although not condoning what happened), they may get a reprieve from the school and be allowed to stay.

I tend to take a hard line on theft. There was a theft ring at Duke when I was in school many years ago, which stole about 20 typewriters (I dunno, maybe it was "inkwells and quills") and pawned them mostly over in Raleigh. They were caught and thrown out of school. I was amazed and not a bit pleased a year later to see one of the perpetrators back on campus. Apparently they received suspensions not expulsions.

Don't be so angry. Let it go, man. They're still going to face punishment from UCLA. You seem to be disappointed they weren't thrown in some Chinese prison for stealing some Louis Vuitton sunglasses. They did something very stupid and embarrassed themselves and UCLA. But this should be a learning opportunity. Teaching them that there are no second chances at this age doesn't serve anyone. I'm not condoning what they did, but I am proposing we keep some perspective here.

English
11-14-2017, 12:45 PM
One thing that will never cease to entertain and delight me (maybe not in a ha-ha funny way, but in an are-you-kidding-me way)...my sister-in-law lived in China for a couple of years for work, and she's a 5'9 blond, white woman. She's lovely, but in a crowd, she wouldn't leap out at you. When she would travel around doing normal, everyday activities, strangers would ask to take pictures with her because she looked so different from what they were accustomed to seeing. She couldn't go anywhere and blend in, and basically everywhere she went, she was a bit of a spectacle.

Now, in this instance, we have three black dudes who are 6'5, 6'7, and 6'8, all over 200lbs. In China. Where generally speaking, people are not typically taller than 6' and most are well below that. These guys are trying to, I presume, inconspicuously sneak high-end merchandise from a retail center full of high-end merchandise and Chinese people. The odds that eyes were not on these guys everywhere they went, even out of just pure curiosity and awe, are infinitesimal. Yet, they thought they could get away with stealing from multiple retailers. It baffles the mind.

If for no other reason, these guys should be punished for utter stupidity. Oh, and also for breaking the law, but definitely for the stupidity.

sagegrouse
11-14-2017, 12:46 PM
Don't be so angry. Let it go, man. They're still going to face punishment from UCLA. You seem to be disappointed they weren't thrown in some Chinese prison for stealing some Louis Vuitton sunglasses.

I'm not angry about anything; you have me confused with Procrustes (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Procrustes), who was a really bad dude. I haven't advocated "zero tolerance." I corrected your terminology, by pointing out that "zero tolerance" would not be expulsion from UCLA, but harsh criminal penalties levied in the jurisdiction of the crime.

Duke95
11-14-2017, 12:54 PM
I'm not angry about anything; you have me confused with Procrustes (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Procrustes), who was a really bad dude. I haven't advocated "zero tolerance." I corrected your terminology, by pointing out that "zero tolerance" would not be expulsion from UCLA, but harsh criminal penalties levied in the jurisdiction of the crime.

Was Procrustes mad at typewriter thieves too? (just kidding).

All good. I think we differ on this, and I understand we probably come at this from different perspectives. I'd just like to say, I would not wish time in a communist prison on these kids.

El_Diablo
11-14-2017, 01:10 PM
I am pro-Crusties. Yeah, they don't stand for the whole game, but they can still get loud when needed!

CrazyNotCrazie
11-14-2017, 01:18 PM
One thing that will never cease to entertain and delight me (maybe not in a ha-ha funny way, but in an are-you-kidding-me way)...my sister-in-law lived in China for a couple of years for work, and she's a 5'9 blond, white woman. She's lovely, but in a crowd, she wouldn't leap out at you. When she would travel around doing normal, everyday activities, strangers would ask to take pictures with her because she looked so different from what they were accustomed to seeing. She couldn't go anywhere and blend in, and basically everywhere she went, she was a bit of a spectacle.

Now, in this instance, we have three black dudes who are 6'5, 6'7, and 6'8, all over 200lbs. In China. Where generally speaking, people are not typically taller than 6' and most are well below that. These guys are trying to, I presume, inconspicuously sneak high-end merchandise from a retail center full of high-end merchandise and Chinese people. The odds that eyes were not on these guys everywhere they went, even out of just pure curiosity and awe, are infinitesimal. Yet, they thought they could get away with stealing from multiple retailers. It baffles the mind.

If for no other reason, these guys should be punished for utter stupidity. Oh, and also for breaking the law, but definitely for the stupidity.

Great point - I was thinking the same thing. I went to China and as a 6-foot plus Caucasian, I was treated like a rock star - I imagine my picture being in homes across China (for better or worse). I am sure the store management had their eyes on these three players. Also, if I recall correctly, they shoplifted in multiple stores.

I think that the punishment here doesn't need to be draconian, but it needs to be considerable. Missing a few basketball games does not accomplish that. They should be penalized to the full extent that a non-basketball player would be penalized, but that is compounded by the fact that they were representatives of the school. Penalties in situations like these are not only meant to punish the shoplifter, but also to serve as a deterrent to future potential criminals.

BD80
11-14-2017, 01:24 PM
The Big Baller's son was probably *this* close to suffering ironic punishment, having to work in a forced labor camp making Nikes. But I'm glad the U.S. got involved and brought them home.

I am NOT happy. What was the real world cost of the favor to get the kids out of China? Stupid twits cost the entire country with their sense of entitlement. Just "had" to pick up a few souvenirs?

Jiminy crickets, leave them to rot in the luxury hotel at UCLA's expense.


Well, they are on their way home. So no criminal repercussions for them in China. We shall see if anyone in the US makes a stand for better behavior. I do wonder what Trump promised to get China to completely drop the charges.
https://deadspin.com/liangelo-ball-and-fellow-ucla-shoplifters-are-coming-ho-1820435559


It didn’t cost the Chinese anything, and it probably reduced the pressure on China to accede to other U.S. requests, like the one to allow the widow of Chinese dissident and Nobel Prize winner Liu Xiaobo to leave the country (https://thediplomat.com/2017/07/us-calls-on-china-to-release-liu-xiaobos-wife/), and the one to ease up on the persecution of Falun Gong (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persecution_of_Falun_Gong), and the one to be reasonable about sovereignty around man-made islands in the South China Sea.

Any cost was too high.


I'm not angry about anything; you have me confused with Procrustes (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Procrustes), who was a really bad dude. ...

He wasn't bad, he was the inspiration for the economy seat arrangements on today's passenger airlines!

davekay1971
11-14-2017, 01:33 PM
I am NOT happy. What was the real world cost of the favor to get the kids out of China? Stupid twits cost the entire country with their sense of entitlement. Just "had" to pick up a few souvenirs? !

I'm with you. While I do agree with Jason, young kids doing stupid things that are, on the whole, relatively harmless, should not have their lives ruined...this whole event reinforces nothing but bad things. First, the view that young American guys are arrogant, spoiled, and disrespectful of both foreign law and foreign culture. And second, that if you're a prominent athlete, the US President will intervene to help you out of a bad situation. But anyone else...well, good luck out there, you're on your own.

There are other, much more serious situations in US-China relations needing direct attention. But, hey, celebrity, amirite?

Kfanarmy
11-14-2017, 01:45 PM
They'd have a very good case against the NCAA.

I don't have a problem with what LaVar is doing. He's doing this to help his kids. More power to him.

An interesting perspective...I suspect there are more egocentric forces at work.

Kfanarmy
11-14-2017, 01:47 PM
Yeah, I don't think the guy really cares what those people say.

I have no problem with what he's doing. Hasn't hurt anyone, his kids are successful, and they stay out of trouble. He's doing something right.

Might rethink that one part.

budwom
11-14-2017, 01:55 PM
Making them eat the economy chicken or lasagna would be the greater punishment.

My bad. Double portions for those lads.

Kfanarmy
11-14-2017, 02:05 PM
The three players are to be kicked off the team, right???? I mean, how can they remain UCLA basketball players when caught on video shoplifting expensive items of $1,000 or so in three stores? And, by the way, they will fall disastrously behind in their course work and will have to drop out for the semester, right? And, also, they'll be expelled from UCLA for theft and larceny while representing the school, right?

I think we're about to have a test of institutional integrity, and I am not sure UCLA will get a very good score.


UNC would likely even suspend players for this....missing practice I mean. Not the actual theft.

swood1000
11-14-2017, 02:35 PM
It seems to me that China got its message across: if you shoplift in China you better have the President of the United States making a personal appeal on your behalf or you’re screwed. The other question is whether the perpetrators learned their lesson. It’s not clear whether they formally pled guilty to some charges before they left. If they didn’t, then the university may be limited in what action can be taken against them, but the team would still be able to discipline them.

My guess is that they didn’t need any Chinese jail to learn their lesson. They have been subject to such derision and mockery in the press, and it has been such an embarrassment for the team, that I can’t imagine how any of them could convert this into something to brag or laugh about. They’ll also realize that if they are caught again doing something like this the press coverage and public opinion will be merciless.

sagegrouse
11-14-2017, 02:49 PM
It seems to me that China got its message across: if you shoplift in China you better have the President of the United States making a personal appeal on your behalf or you’re screwed. The other question is whether the perpetrators learned their lesson. It’s not clear whether they formally pled guilty to some charges before they left. If they didn’t, then the university may be limited in what action can be taken against them, but the team would still be able to discipline them.

My guess is that they didn’t need any Chinese jail to learn their lesson. They have been subject to such derision and mockery in the press, and it has been such an embarrassment for the team, that I can’t imagine how any of them could convert this into something to brag or laugh about. They’ll also realize that if they are caught again doing something like this the press coverage and public opinion will be merciless.

I am sure the law has moved on since I had this very discussion with law students back in the day. An educational institution has the right to admit people of its choosing and, therefore, has the right to terminate students at its discretion, whether a conviction has occurred or not. Even in California, I would think the state universities would insist on a free hand in such matters to avoid costly litigation draining the educational coffers.

DangerDevil
11-14-2017, 02:56 PM
Quotes from Trump and the UCLA president from an updated ESPN article:

"He's been terrific," Trump said, in an apparent reference to Xi. "... But it was not a good subject. That was not something that should have happened."

UCLA chancellor Gene D. Block, while saying he was "grateful" that the players were headed home, issued a statement Tuesday saying that the school will look into the matter and decide what action will be taken. Ball, Riley, Hill, UCLA coach Steve Alford and athletic director Dan Guerrero will hold a news conference Wednesday”

sagegrouse
11-14-2017, 03:12 PM
Well, I don't expect the UCLA players to be kicked out of school. There's a press conference tomorrow at UCLA with the three players (LiAngelo Ball, Jalen Hill and Cody Riley). I expect head coach Steve Alford and AD Dan Guerrero will also participate.

CameronBornAndBred
11-14-2017, 03:25 PM
Ball, Riley, Hill, UCLA coach Steve Alford and athletic director Dan Guerrero will hold a news conference Wednesday”

That pretty much guarantees that they will be staying in school and on the team. You don't show up to a press conference to say goodbye.

devildeac
11-14-2017, 03:25 PM
Has Bilas stated what the correct action/punishment is here? :rolleyes:

swood1000
11-14-2017, 03:27 PM
I am sure the law has moved on since I had this very discussion with law students back in the day. An educational institution has the right to admit people of its choosing and, therefore, has the right to terminate students at its discretion, whether a conviction has occurred or not. Even in California, I would think the state universities would insist on a free hand in such matters to avoid costly litigation draining the educational coffers.

I'm sure you're right. They would just need sufficient evidence that a theft had taken place. UCLA Chancellor Gene Block said the school is looking into further punishment for the players.


“I want to be clear that we take seriously any violations of the law,” he said in a statement (http://newsroom.ucla.edu/releases/message-from-chancellor-block-on-ucla-basketball-players-returning-to-the-u-s). “We remain one of the world’s top academic institutions in large part because of our values and standards, which we work hard to infuse throughout our campus community.

“When members of the UCLA family fail to uphold these values, we review these incidents with fair and thorough processes. In this particular case, both Athletics and the Office of Student Conduct will review this incident and guide any action with respect to the involved students. Such proceedings are confidential, which limits the specific information that can be shared.”

arnie
11-14-2017, 03:53 PM
Has Bilas stated what the correct action/punishment is here? :rolleyes:

Bilas usually on the side of the players except for those times they’re forced to take bogus classes. It’s gotta be NCCA fault that they were forced to shoplift bare essentials. Im sure whatever level of a action imposed will be wrong in his view.

Duke95
11-14-2017, 03:56 PM
Has Bilas stated what the correct action/punishment is here? :rolleyes:

Ok, now what Jay Bilas and Bill Walton have both been mentioned in this thread, anyone else wonder what would happen if Walton and Bilas were commentators on a game together?

Bilas: This kid Johnson has a nice mid-range game.
Walton: Yeah, I remember I was on a cruise once and we played checkers for 5 hours straight.
Bilas: Uh...
Walton: Ever been on a cruise, Mike?
Bilas: I'm Jay.
Walton: You went with Jay? I liked that guy. He played at Duke...good power forward.
Bilas: He was a point guard.
Walton: They're all point guards these days. I mean, look at that kid Simmons.
Bilas: Bartender...over here!

sagegrouse
11-14-2017, 03:58 PM
Well, I don't expect the UCLA players to be kicked out of school. There's a press conference tomorrow at UCLA with the three players (LiAngelo Ball, Jalen Hill and Cody Riley). I expect head coach Steve Alford and AD Dan Guerrero will also participate.

Well, not so fast there, slowpoke! The university will investigate and make its own ruling. I expect tomorrow's session is the beginning of the "apology tour."

And, given the size of UCLA (45,000 students), there are probably scores of precedents that can be used, although not from such exotic locales.

devildeac
11-14-2017, 04:02 PM
Well, not so fast there, slowpoke! The university will investigate and make its own ruling. I expect tomorrow's session is the beginning of the "apology tour."

One possible scenario:

UCLA: Yes, to any normal person, it's shoplifting and punishable by a fine, jail time or both, but to UCLA/ncaa, it's not. :rolleyes:

Now where have I heard something like that before...

duke79
11-14-2017, 04:03 PM
Has Bilas stated what the correct action/punishment is here? :rolleyes:

LOL......cruel !

JasonEvans
11-14-2017, 04:13 PM
Just for the record, the UCLA student code of conduct (http://www.deanofstudents.ucla.edu/Portals/16/Documents/UCLACodeOfConduct_Rev030416.pdf)does allow for disciplinary action for students who commit a crime, though it is worth noting that it does not appear these guys were convicted of anything.


102.25: Violations of Law
Students may be subject to discipline on the basis of a conviction under any
federal, California state, or local criminal law, when the conviction constitutes
reasonable cause to believe that the Student poses a threat to the health or
safety of any person, or to the security of any property, on University premises
or at official University functions, or to the orderly operation of the campus.

-Jason "I wonder, if they had been normal students on a random trip to China, would UCLA have done anything? Of course, they were representing UCLA on this trip so that makes this completely different" Evans

jimsumner
11-14-2017, 04:42 PM
Ok, now what Jay Bilas and Bill Walton have both been mentioned in this thread, anyone else wonder what would happen if Walton and Bilas were commentators on a game together?

Bilas: This kid Johnson has a nice mid-range game.
Walton: Yeah, I remember I was on a cruise once and we played checkers for 5 hours straight.
Bilas: Uh...
Walton: Ever been on a cruise, Mike?
Bilas: I'm Jay.
Walton: You went with Jay? I liked that guy. He played at Duke...good power forward.
Bilas: He was a point guard.
Walton: They're all point guards these days. I mean, look at that kid Simmons.
Bilas: Bartender...over here!

Throw in Dick Vitale and WE'VE GOT A TRIFECTA, BABEE!!

rsvman
11-14-2017, 04:52 PM
.......

My guess is that they didn’t need any Chinese jail to learn their lesson. They have been subject to such derision and mockery in the press, and it has been such an embarrassment for the team, that I can’t imagine how any of them could convert this into something to brag or laugh about. They’ll also realize that if they are caught again doing something like this the press coverage and public opinion will be merciless.

Yeah, maybe even almost as bad as if they had tripped a player during a basketball game...........:p

pfrduke
11-14-2017, 07:14 PM
Williams just advocated for a "couple of games" suspension for the UCLA kids, which if I remember correctly is less than he thought Grayson should have received for tripping a guy in a basketball game. "Teachable moment" my foot.

dudog84
11-15-2017, 06:08 AM
It seems to me that China got its message across: if you shoplift in China you better have the President of the United States making a personal appeal on your behalf or you’re screwed. The other question is whether the perpetrators learned their lesson. It’s not clear whether they formally pled guilty to some charges before they left. If they didn’t, then the university may be limited in what action can be taken against them, but the team would still be able to discipline them.

My guess is that they didn’t need any Chinese jail to learn their lesson. They have been subject to such derision and mockery in the press, and it has been such an embarrassment for the team, that I can’t imagine how any of them could convert this into something to brag or laugh about. They’ll also realize that if they are caught again doing something like this the press coverage and public opinion will be merciless.

Have you not heard of Lavar Ball?

Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15
11-15-2017, 06:14 AM
Williams just advocated for a "couple of games" suspension for the UCLA kids, which if I remember correctly is less than he thought Grayson should have received for tripping a guy in a basketball game. "Teachable moment" my foot.

Jay and Baldy nearly came to blows at halftime last night in discussing potential punishment for these young men. Not surprising that Jay has some sympathy for a young man making a mistake, not suprising that Greenberg is happy to jump on his high horse and strike out against these kids.

All I know is that a talented privileged kid who has been insulated from real consequences could have quite the life-changing experience in just a few days in a Chinese jail.

Will be watching the fall out of this with some morbid interest.

OldPhiKap
11-15-2017, 06:28 AM
Jay and Baldy nearly came to blows at halftime last night in discussing potential punishment for these young men. Not surprising that Jay has some sympathy for a young man making a mistake, not suprising that Greenberg is happy to jump on his high horse and strike out against these kids.

A man who can coach Deron Washington, and say with a straight face that misdeeds should be punished, is full of crap.

budwom
11-15-2017, 06:50 AM
Not to venture at all into politics, but I think it's valid to say that the government/State Dept. will be embarrassed if, having pulled some strings with the Chinese (I never thought the kids would be jailed, but still, it was a real problem)
UCLA were to let them off with a slap on the wrist. Kornheiser and Wilbon seemed to think 5-10 game suspensions were required, I'd agree to something on the higher end of that range. Teaching moment, as they opined.

Reddevil
11-15-2017, 09:13 AM
Remember the kid that got caned in Singapore? That would have been a nice compromise. They get punished, and they get to come home. Everyone wins. If you are appalled, stay off my grass.:) It will be interesting to see what UCLA does. I know what would happen if I did that on a business trip.

I see a lot of people claiming that angry old men are less tolerant than other folks. Maybe so, but I do not believe it has anything to do with age. I think we actually lived during times when consequences were more severe. I am willing to say that every generation goes through this thought process, but I don't know about that. Respect and entitlement were earned, but then people in there 70's said that about my generation. Perhaps those in their 30's now will be saying the same thing 20 years from now. Is it really just repeating itself, or is the fabric of society fraying little by little? Sorry, way off topic. Now as for those darn kids...

Henderson
11-15-2017, 09:16 AM
Teaching moment, as they opined.

I don't care what the punishment is, except that it can't be "no big deal" as LaVar Ball has said. It was stupid shoplifting. No one was physically hurt. Teens shoplifting, caught, and presumable had to return the gear. But there have to be sufficient consequences to make sure the teaching moment is: If you do stupid illegal stuff, especially overseas, it's a big deal even if you are a coddled teenage athlete.

BTW, when LaVar said it was no big deal, I wonder: Did he mean the shoplifting by his son is no big deal, or that it's no big deal because his middle son is going nowhere and won't be important to the BBB brand anyway?

Atlanta Duke
11-15-2017, 09:27 AM
Not to venture at all into politics, but I think it's valid to say that the government/State Dept. will be embarrassed if, having pulled some strings with the Chinese (I never thought the kids would be jailed, but still, it was a real problem)
UCLA were to let them off with a slap on the wrist.

Maybe - maybe not. To secure the release one argument was this was no big deal. This from the NYT article on the President's involvement.

“Our president said to Xi, ‘Do you know anything about these knuckleheads that got caught allegedly stealing?’” Mr. Kelly said. Unaware of the episode, the Chinese president dispatched an aide to get more information. “The president was saying, ‘It’s not too serious. We’d love to see this taken care of in an expeditious way,’” Mr. Kelly added.

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/11/14/us/politics/trump-ucla-basketball-china.html?rref=collection%2Fsectioncollection%2Fs ports&action=click&contentCollection=sports&region=rank&module=package&version=highlights&contentPlacement=1&pgtype=sectionfront

CameronBornAndBred
11-15-2017, 10:52 AM
Not to venture at all into politics, but I think it's valid to say that the government/State Dept. will be embarrassed if, having pulled some strings with the Chinese (I never thought the kids would be jailed, but still, it was a real problem)
UCLA were to let them off with a slap on the wrist. Kornheiser and Wilbon seemed to think 5-10 game suspensions were required, I'd agree to something on the higher end of that range. Teaching moment, as they opined.

And they BETTER thank the Donald! He said so in a tweet.

Do you think the three UCLA Basketball Players will say thank you President Trump? They were headed for 10 years in jail!
https://www.msn.com/en-us/sports/ncaabk/donald-trump-wants-ucla-basketball-players-to-thank-him-for-intervening-in-china-case/ar-BBF06zb?li=BBmkt5R&ocid=spartandhp

Pghdukie
11-15-2017, 12:01 PM
Who has the bigger ego - Donald or LaVar ? Just asking ?

CameronBornAndBred
11-15-2017, 12:07 PM
Who has the bigger ego - Donald or LaVar ? Just asking ?

Dunno, but only Patrick Davidson would survive the resulting explosion if they are in the same room together.

JasonEvans
11-15-2017, 01:18 PM
The three players have been "indefinitely suspended," whatever that means. Alford says they will have to "earn their way back onto the team" and they cannot travel to games during the suspension. Seems like a good way to look like you are taking action and then let them back on the team in a few weeks without folks really noticing.

JasonEvans
11-15-2017, 01:22 PM
The three players have been "indefinitely suspended," whatever that means. Alford says they will have to "earn their way back onto the team" and they cannot travel to games during the suspension. Seems like a good way to look like you are taking action and then let them back on the team in a few weeks without folks really noticing.

UCLA has Creighton and then either Baylor or Wisconsin next week in a tourney, but doesn't have any other really competitive games until Michigan on Dec 9th. If they sat out the all the games up to Michigan, it would be about a month-long suspension and they would miss the first 9 games of the season. That feels about right to me.

tbyers11
11-15-2017, 01:30 PM
Jay and Baldy nearly came to blows at halftime last night in discussing potential punishment for these young men. Not surprising that Jay has some sympathy for a young man making a mistake, not suprising that Greenberg is happy to jump on his high horse and strike out against these kids.

All I know is that a talented privileged kid who has been insulated from real consequences could have quite the life-changing experience in just a few days in a Chinese jail.

Will be watching the fall out of this with some morbid interest.

I was also watching Jay and Seth go at it over the potential punishment for the UCLA kids. I began wonder if their suggestions (Jay - a couple of games; Seth - transfer because your name is Mudd forevermore at UCLA) is what they really think or if they are just stating the extreme ends of the spectrum for the sake of better ("more argumentative") TV?

Jay's take is seems laughably short and Seth's take seems ridiculously punitive. It really seems like it was a First Take-like orchestrated scenario because both of them saying "Well, they should be suspended for about 10 games" doesn't make for good TV. At least in the mind of ESPN producers.

duke79
11-15-2017, 01:46 PM
The three players have been "indefinitely suspended," whatever that means. Alford says they will have to "earn their way back onto the team" and they cannot travel to games during the suspension. Seems like a good way to look like you are taking action and then let them back on the team in a few weeks without folks really noticing.

I'd have more respect for UCLA if they had thrown the three kids off the team for good and kicked them out of school. What sort of morons go on a serial shoplifting spree in a foreign, communist controlled country known for punishing criminals, even petty criminals, quite harshly. I agree with Bill Walton (quoted above) that it's an embarrassment to UCLA, to college basketball, and to the United States (although I'm not sure about the "humanity" part). Donald Trump may be right that they owe him a huge thanks for springing them free (who knows about the 10 years in jail speculation?). Does anyone on this board think that Coach K or Coach Cut (or Duke University) would countenance such behavior?

Furthermore, I'm sure there are many other schools who would pick them up and let them play.

Kfanarmy
11-15-2017, 01:55 PM
I was also watching Jay and Seth go at it over the potential punishment for the UCLA kids. I began wonder if their suggestions (Jay - a couple of games; Seth - transfer because your name is Mudd forevermore at UCLA) is what they really think or if they are just stating the extreme ends of the spectrum for the sake of better ("more argumentative") TV?

Jay's take seems laughably short and Seth's take seems ridiculously punitive. It really seems like it was a First Take-like orchestrated scenario because both of them saying "Well, they should be suspended for about 10 games" doesn't make for good TV. At least in the mind of ESPN producers.

I think Bilas has lost his mind...not his ability to remember things, but his ability to arrive at rational conclusions based on facts. His memory is there but his OS and processor have wear-induced glitches.

Info that these guys were heading home was available several hours before the game started.
If the UCLA players had been in the U.S., they'd be awaiting arraignment for felony theft. My guess is they'd already be off the DUKE team if video existed of them stealing, rather than being suspended.

on a side note, Why does Bilas seem to act like every foul called against Duke's opponents is a mistake, while trying to be the first person to note a Duke foul? Is he a closet cheater? Did his parents make him go to Duke?


Maybe - maybe not. To secure the release one argument was this was no big deal. This from the NYT article on the President's involvement.

“Our president said to Xi, ‘Do you know anything about these knuckleheads that got caught allegedly stealing?’” Mr. Kelly said. Unaware of the episode, the Chinese president dispatched an aide to get more information. “The president was saying, ‘It’s not too serious. We’d love to see this taken care of in an expeditious way,’” Mr. Kelly added.


That is probably an astute way to approach this kind of problem with the Chinese leadership: ask without asking in a low key manner. They can only be seen as being gracious, and POTUS is not engaged formally. Everyone can only win, neither risks anything. I believe that, if the USG had made a big deal of this, the Chinese leadership would have felt insulted and the UCLA players would be sitting in a jail awaiting trial.

rasputin
11-15-2017, 02:00 PM
I'd have more respect for UCLA if they had thrown the three kids off the team for good and kicked them out of school. What sort of morons go on a serial shoplifting spree in a foreign, communist controlled country known for punishing criminals, even petty criminals, quite harshly. I agree with Bill Walton (quoted above) that it's an embarrassment to UCLA, to college basketball, and to the United States (although I'm not sure about the "humanity" part). Donald Trump may be right that they owe him a huge thanks for springing them free (who knows about the 10 years in jail speculation?). Does anyone on this board think that Coach K or Coach Cut (or Duke University) would countenance such behavior?

Furthermore, I'm sure there are many other schools who would pick them up and let them play.

If I were the head coach, I'd suspend them for the current school year. All of it. I wouldn't throw them off the team, or out of the university, but these guys did a huge disservice to the university they are out there representing. Let'em start fresh next year.

BD80
11-15-2017, 02:40 PM
UCLA has Creighton and then either Baylor or Wisconsin next week in a tourney, but doesn't have any other really competitive games until Michigan on Dec 9th. If they sat out the all the games up to Michigan, it would be about a month-long suspension and they would miss the first 9 games of the season. That feels about right to me.

Does that actually seem like punishment to you? Missing only non-competitive games? Unless there is some real consequence, the punishment is a joke to these kids. They've been forced to admit that they shoplifted, but the extent of the crimes is being covered up. Some accountability.

So far, their punishment is that they have been "forced" to stay in a luxury hotel for a couple of extra days. They won't even get booed at away games. The "indefinite" means "until it blows over."

The only thing they have to worry about is somebody catching them on video laughing about the whole thing.


FWIW, I liked the caning idea. Suggest that pillorying during home and away games for a season might suffice. Would be OK with LaVar accepting the punishment for all three.

Newton_14
11-15-2017, 04:01 PM
I was also watching Jay and Seth go at it over the potential punishment for the UCLA kids. I began wonder if their suggestions (Jay - a couple of games; Seth - transfer because your name is Mudd forevermore at UCLA) is what they really think or if they are just stating the extreme ends of the spectrum for the sake of better ("more argumentative") TV?

Jay's take is seems laughably short and Seth's take seems ridiculously punitive. It really seems like it was a First Take-like orchestrated scenario because both of them saying "Well, they should be suspended for about 10 games" doesn't make for good TV. At least in the mind of ESPN producers.

After watching that I came away believing Seth Greenburg is Sagegrouse and Jason Williams is Duke95. Has anyone ever seen either pair together at the same time? :cool:

OldPhiKap
11-15-2017, 06:13 PM
After watching that I came away believing Seth Greenburg is Sagegrouse and Jason Williams is Duke95. Has anyone ever seen either pair together at the same time? :cool:

Having met Sage twice now, comparing him to Seth is likely fighting words.

SilkyJ
11-15-2017, 08:31 PM
I was also watching Jay and Seth go at it over the potential punishment for the UCLA kids. I began wonder if their suggestions (Jay - a couple of games; Seth - transfer because your name is Mudd forevermore at UCLA) is what they really think or if they are just stating the extreme ends of the spectrum for the sake of better ("more argumentative") TV?

Jay's take is seems laughably short and Seth's take seems ridiculously punitive. It really seems like it was a First Take-like orchestrated scenario because both of them saying "Well, they should be suspended for about 10 games" doesn't make for good TV. At least in the mind of ESPN producers.

Seth is a blowhard. He thought Grayson needed to see a psychiatrist bc he got competitive and tripped someone while playing a sport.

In hockey they make each other bleed intentionally and go to a penalty box for 5 minutes....but Grayson needs a therapist for tripping a guy

aimo
11-15-2017, 08:45 PM
I'd have more respect for UCLA if they had thrown the three kids off the team for good and kicked them out of school.

This. I can't believe UCLA doesn't have some sort of code that would get them at least temporarily suspended from school, not just basketball. Like a student who is caught cheating. Unless, of course, they are willing to change their rules (a la holes) and decide it's perfectly OK for students to commit crimes and embarrass the university.

uh_no
11-15-2017, 09:29 PM
Seth is a blowhard. He thought Grayson needed to see a psychiatrist bc he got competitive and tripped someone while playing a sport.

In hockey they make each other bleed intentionally and go to a penalty box for 5 minutes...but Grayson needs a therapist for tripping a guy

TO be fair, he probably should have, and I'm assuming did see a sports psychiatrist....it's not an uncommon thing...especially when trying to break habits.

Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15
11-15-2017, 09:30 PM
I was also watching Jay and Seth go at it over the potential punishment for the UCLA kids. I began wonder if their suggestions (Jay - a couple of games; Seth - transfer because your name is Mudd forevermore at UCLA) is what they really think or if they are just stating the extreme ends of the spectrum for the sake of better ("more argumentative") TV?

Jay's take is seems laughably short and Seth's take seems ridiculously punitive. It really seems like it was a First Take-like orchestrated scenario because both of them saying "Well, they should be suspended for about 10 games" doesn't make for good TV. At least in the mind of ESPN producers.

Jay seemed legit pissed at Seth. I don't buy that it was manufactured for TV. I think Williams really believes that young athletes who make mistakes can learn and grow up and can be coached in life to great benefit. But Seth wants the kids brought down a few pegs and humbled to the degree of sitting a year and transferring.

Both perspectives make sense based on their histories and doesn't have to be fiction for the good narrative.

sagegrouse
11-15-2017, 09:45 PM
Jay seemed legit pissed at Seth. I don't buy that it was manufactured for TV. I think Williams really believes that young athletes who make mistakes can learn and grow up and can be coached in life to great benefit. But Seth wants the kids brought down a few pegs and humbled to the degree of sitting a year and transferring.

Both perspectives make sense based on their histories and doesn't have to be fiction for the good narrative.

Some of it is age. I am more than twice as old as JWill, and IMHO (where the H is rotting in jail in China) the loss of a few months or even a year of school and college hoops would likely be salubrious for the young men. For one thing, hanging around UCLA and the hoops program, the fawning attitude of "Oh, you had a such a terrible experience -- I fell sorry for you" will not be helpful. Better to take a break and start over again.

Of course, if I were Steve Alford I would feel differently. But if I were UCLA chancellor (Gene Block) or the the dean of students (Maria Blandizzi), I would want them gone. Otherwise, every interaction with a student in trouble or his or her parents would be faced with this case where likely felons skated through the intercession of POTUS in China and the lenient treatment by the hoops coach once back on campus.

Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15
11-16-2017, 12:27 AM
Some of it is age. I am more than twice as old as JWill, and IMHO (where the H is rotting in jail in China) the loss of a few months or even a year of school and college hoops would likely be salubrious for the young men. For one thing, hanging around UCLA and the hoops program, the fawning attitude of "Oh, you had a such a terrible experience -- I fell sorry for you" will not be helpful. Better to take a break and start over again.

Of course, if I were Steve Alford I would feel differently. But if I were UCLA chancellor (Gene Block) or the the dean of students (Maria Blandizzi), I would want them gone. Otherwise, every interaction with a student in trouble or his or her parents would be faced with this case where likely felons skated through the intercession of POTUS in China and the lenient treatment by the hoops coach once back on campus.

I wasn't necessarily siding with either of them. It just seemed clear to me that their viewpoints were "former player" and "former coach," rather than something produced by market research.

JasonEvans
11-16-2017, 01:01 AM
Espn is reporting that UCLA officials are debating between a half season and a full season suspension. Supposedly, many big donors have contacted the school and are expressing their views on the matter. The school thinks this was a highly embarrassing incident and there appears to be some strong undercurrent to suspend them for the whole year and if they transfer away as a result, so be it.

Jason “it sounds like Alford is part of the discussion, but that he won’t have the final sayin what the punishment will be” Evans

arnie
11-16-2017, 05:37 AM
Espn is reporting that UCLA officials are debating between a half season and a full season suspension. Supposedly, many big donors have contacted the school and are expressing their views on the matter. The school thinks this was a highly embarrassing incident and there appears to be some strong undercurrent to suspend them for the whole year and if they transfer away as a result, so be it.

Jason “it sounds like Alford is part of the discussion, but that he won’t have the final sayin what the punishment will be” Evans

I don’t have a string opinion on appropriate punishment levels, but consideration of a long suspension by a state university is refreshing. If these players were enrolled at Chapel Hill and arrived back from China; they’d have been locally exonerated and taken the court against Bucknell.

Atlanta Duke
11-16-2017, 06:54 AM
Another request for a thank you and an admonition from the President this morning

President Donald Trump on Thursday accepted the thank-yous from the three UCLA men's basketball players accused of shoplifting during a team trip to China whose release he helped secure during his five-nation tour of Asia.

“To the three UCLA basketball players I say: You're welcome, go out and give a big Thank You to President Xi Jinping of China who made your release possible and, HAVE A GREAT LIFE!” Trump wrote on Twitter, breaking his message up into two posts. “Be careful, there are many pitfalls on the long and winding road of life!”

https://www.politico.com/story/2017/11/16/trump-ucla-players-advice-244972
https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/931122234437046272
https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/931123400810037248