Adidas Scandal (FBI Investigation, Several Schools Impacted)

[hallcity]

Tom Winter‏Verified account @Tom_Winter

BREAKING NEWS / NBC: The FBI has arrested several NCAA asst. basketball coaches in a corruption scheme. Presser @ 12n with U.S. Attorney

Here's the press release (https://www.justice.gov/usao-sdny/pr/press-conference-advisory-2) from the US Attorney's Office SDNY:
There will be a press conference today at noon to announce charges of fraud and corruption in college basketball. Federal criminal charges have been brought against ten people, including four college basketball coaches, as well as managers, financial advisors, and representatives of a major international sportswear company. The press conference will be livestreamed on Facebook @USAOSDNY.

[sammy3469]

Tom Winter‏Verified account @Tom_Winter

BREAKING NEWS / NBC: The FBI has arrested several NCAA asst. basketball coaches in a corruption scheme. Presser @ 12n with U.S. Attorney

Here's the press release (https://www.justice.gov/usao-sdny/pr/press-conference-advisory-2) from the US Attorney's Office SDNY:
There will be a press conference today at noon to announce charges of fraud and corruption in college basketball. Federal criminal charges have been brought against ten people, including four college basketball coaches, as well as managers, financial advisors, and representatives of a major international sportswear company. The press conference will be livestreamed on Facebook @USAOSDNY.

Chuck Person was named. From two of the complaints it looks like Auburn, a public university in Kentucky (so LY or Louisville), and a private Florida University (Miami maybe) are involved. The Kentucky money is large.

The complaints are at the bottom of that page.

Last complaint has public universities in Arizona (Arizona Book Richardson arrested), California (USC...Tony Bland arrested), Oklahoma (this is OK St since Lamont Evans is named), and South Carolina

[dukebluesincebirth]

Hmmm... that's quite a teaser. I wonder what company?? Big Baller Brand😄????

[OldPhiKap]

This is not sunny news.

I hope that the institutions involved are not in the ACC. But since expansion, we've been as dirty a conference as the ones we pointed to derisively in the past.

And UNC, of course, has always thought itself above the law.

[hallcity]

Here are the indictments:
https://www.justice.gov/usao-sdny/press-release/file/998756/download
https://www.justice.gov/usao-sdny/press-release/file/998746/download

[Owen Meany]

From quick google search - coaches from Auburn, Ok St, Arizona and USC are reportedly involved.

[hallcity]

From Business Insider (http://www.businessinsider.com/college-basketball-bribery-scandal-arrests-2017-9):

... The Department of Justice announced Tuesday that four college basketball coaches at University of Arizona, Auburn, and Oklahoma State University and had been arrested, as well as managers, financial advisors, and representatives of a major international sportswear company.

Jim Gatto, director of global sports marketing for basketball at Adidas, and Merl Code, the head of Nike’s Elite Youth Basketball League as of 2013, were also named as defendants.

The pair and three other defendants have been charged with "making and concealing bribe payments" to high school student athletes and/or their families. Other defendants include Jonathan Brad Augustine, president of nonprofit The League Initiative, and Christian Dawkins, a former sports agent fired in May for charging $42,000 in Uber ribes on an NBA player's credit card.

The Wall Street Journal reported this morning that the arrests were part of a "wide-ranging" investigation focused on financial advisors, agents, and apparel companies paid coaches, in exchange for pressuring players to associate with certain entities. ...

[camion]

A leaked video of the raid.


https://youtu.be/SjbPi00k_ME

[Atlanta Duke]

Here are the indictments:
https://www.justice.gov/usao-sdny/press-release/file/998756/download
https://www.justice.gov/usao-sdny/press-release/file/998746/download

Thanks for links

Never a good look when you have aka first name only aliases for the named defendants in the caption of the criminal complaint

[dudog84]

I really really hope the NCAA doesn't use this to take the focus off of uNC.

[ChillinDuke]

Chuck Person was named. From two of the complaints it looks like Auburn, a public university in Kentucky (so LY or Louisville), and a private Florida University (Miami maybe) are involved. The Kentucky money is large.

The complaints are at the bottom of that page.

Last complaint has public universities in Arizona (Arizona Book Richardson arrested), California (USC...Tony Bland arrested), Oklahoma (this is OK St since Lamont Evans is named), and South Carolina

Per Wikipedia, Louisville has a "Total enrollment: 22,640 (2016)" and the Lamont Evans complaint says a public university in KY with ~22,640 students. So...seems like Louisville.

Same thing: private university in FL ~16K students per complaint. Wiki says Miami has "Total enrollment: 16,848 (2015)."

By the same logic, Auburn looks right.

"Public university in SC >30K students". Clemson is 23.4K; SC is 33.7K. SC? Neither?

Public OKlahoma >25K. OU is 30K+. OSU is 25.9, so probably OSU?

Public Arizona >40K. ASU way too big. Arizona looks right.

Private California >40K. Too many California schools for me to look.

Gotta run for now...

- Chillin

[OldPhiKap]

I really really hope the NCAA doesn't use this to take the focus off of uNC.

My hope is that the NCAA determines it has to take a strong stand to protect what little is left of its reputation. Hammer time.

[Owen Meany]

I assumed USC is Southern Call, not South Carolina.

[OldPhiKap]

I assumed USC is Southern Call, not South Carolina.

If an assistant did something wrong under Frank Martin, they may never find the body. Just sayin'

I assume the same, although in this undisclosed part of the world the only USC is in Columbia.

[sammy3469]

Per Wikipedia, Louisville has a "Total enrollment: 22,640 (2016)" and the Lamont Evans complaint says a public university in KY with ~22,640 students. So...seems like Louisville.

Same thing: private university in FL ~16K students per complaint. Wiki says Miami has "Total enrollment: 16,848 (2015)."

By the same logic, Auburn looks right.

"Public university in SC >30K students". Clemson is 23.4K; SC is 33.7K. SC? Neither?

Public OKlahoma >25K. OU is 30K+. OSU is 25.9, so probably OSU?

Public Arizona >40K. ASU way too big. Arizona looks right.

Private California >40K. Too many California schools for me to look.

Gotta run for now...

- Chillin

The complaint with James Gatto is the Adidas one which is the Kentucky public/Florida private school one. Louisville and Miami are both the only Adidas schools (Kentucky is Nike) in their state that meet the public/private criteria.

[Owen Meany]

The FBI says Gatto (Adidas) offered one family $100,000 to get a player to attend an Adidas school. I would be nervous if I were a fan of an Adidas school.

Note a former Nike executive is reportedly also involved. I would hope Nike was entrenched enough that no one would feel the need to do such a thing (even if they were willing to break the rules themselves).

[sammy3469]

I assumed USC is Southern Call, not South Carolina.

There are two...a public school in South Carolina and a private in California (USC had their asst coach arrested). The South Carolina school is unknown.

Actually I take that back the South Carolina school is South Carolina since Lamont Evans came from there as outlined in the complaint.

[Atlanta Duke]

From quick google search - coaches from Auburn, Ok St, Arizona and USC are reportedly involved.

Auburn assistant Chuck Person, Oklahoma State assistant Lamont Evans, Arizona assistant Emanuel Richardson and USC assistant Tony Bland.

http://www.espn.com/mens-college-basketball/story/_/id/20824193/ncaa-basketball-coaches-10-charged-fraud-corruption

Tony Bland is with Southern Cal

[SCMatt33]

If Louisville is indeed involved, it will be very important to look at dates of these transactions. From my reading of the bylaws, they would be subject to the repeat violator clause for violations occurring after June, when their punishment was officially handed down for the strippers. Obviously we have to wait and see exactly what happened because I'm sure the NCAA will view things differently if this was limited to coaches and (who they thought were) agents, or if players were involved with receiving any of this money on the back end.

[sammy3469]

So the seven schools looks like:

Auburn
Louisville
Miami
South Carolina
Ok St
USC
Arizona

[hallcity]

If Louisville is indeed involved, it will be very important to look at dates of these transactions. From my reading of the bylaws, they would be subject to the repeat violator clause for violations occurring after June, when their punishment was officially handed down for the strippers. Obviously we have to wait and see exactly what happened because I'm sure the NCAA will view things differently if this was limited to coaches and (who they thought were) agents, or if players were involved with receiving any of this money on the back end.

There have been recent rumors that Papa John (who's a BIG donor at Louisville) wanted Pitino gone. Did he know something was coming?

[Jeffrey]

And UNC, of course, has always thought itself above the law.

It's not?

[Hingeknocker]

This is a bad story, and is only going to get worse I'd imagine, but let's all remember that it wouldn't even be a story in the first place if they'd just let the players be paid.

[MChambers]

This is a bad story, and is only going to get worse I'd imagine, but let's all remember that it wouldn't even be a story in the first place if they'd just let the players be paid.
Depends on how they’re paid. If they’re paid by the schools, won’t illicit shoe money still be an issue? If the payments by schools are capped, won’t under the table money still be a problem?

[sammy3469]

I also won't be shocked if more Adidas schools are named down the line especially if Gatto flips. Gatto is a big Adidas honcho, so he knows where everything is buried. Big 5 schools that fall into that category are AZ St, Ga Tech, Indiana, Kansas, Miss St, NC State, Nebraska, Rutgers, and Texas A&M.

[Hingeknocker]

Depends on how they’re paid. If they’re paid by the schools, won’t illicit shoe money still be an issue? If the payments by schools are capped, won’t under the table money still be a problem?

I meant a more expansive, the players should get paid by the schools and be allowed to profit off their likeness, perhaps to include their own deals with shoe companies.

[Owen Meany]

Although Adidas schools seem in the most danger with what has appeared thus far, literally any school could be drug into this when you have people offering players money. In fact, top programs such as Duke are in greater danger because they are usually the destination for the highly ranked kids that shoe execs and agents would want to target.

[Wahoo2000]

If Louisville is indeed involved, it will be very important to look at dates of these transactions. From my reading of the bylaws, they would be subject to the repeat violator clause for violations occurring after June, when their punishment was officially handed down for the strippers. Obviously we have to wait and see exactly what happened because I'm sure the NCAA will view things differently if this was limited to coaches and (who they thought were) agents, or if players were involved with receiving any of this money on the back end.

7662

Looks like it's gotta be regarding Brian Bowen, a "surprise commit" to Louisville on June 3rd of this year.

https://twitter.com/JasonRileyWDRB/status/912677951174561792?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw&ref_url=http%3A%2F%2Fscout.com%2Fcollege%2Flouisvi lle%2FBoard%2F103990%2FContents%2FFBI-probe-108002530

[hudlow]

I really really hope the NCAA doesn't use this to take the focus off of uNC.

Hopefully it will speed up the uNC resolution to clear the table for these new transgressions that are surely more sensational for the media.

[sagegrouse]

So the seven schools looks like:

Auburn
Louisville
Miami
South Carolina
Ok St
USC
Arizona

So, from a cursory review of the Person complaint, it appears that the charge is receipt of a payment (bribe) for helping steer an athlete at Auburn to use a specific agent. It is a crime, ostensibly, because Person is an employee of an institution that receives more than $10,000 in federal assistance.

[JasonEvans]

Looks like it's gotta be regarding Brian Bowen, a "surprise commit" to Louisville on June 3rd of this year.

Yeah, there are other reports surfacing now that Bowen's family was paid 6-figures to attend an Adidas school and that Louisville was the school of choice. While there is nothing that indicates Pitino or anyone at Louisville knew what was going on, this is yet another stain on Pitino. One wonders if he can survive another major scandal.

-Jason "I really wish the ACC had gone elsewhere for another team... Louisville is not a cultural match with anyone else in the ACC" Evans

[sammy3469]

Yeah, there are other reports surfacing now that Bowen's family was paid 6-figures to attend an Adidas school and that Louisville was the school of choice. While there is nothing that indicates Pitino or anyone at Louisville knew what was going on, this is yet another stain on Pitino. One wonders if he can survive another major scandal.

-Jason "I really wish the ACC had gone elsewhere for another team... Louisville is not a cultural match with anyone else in the ACC" Evans

I don't know why he wasn't arrested, but there is a Coach-1 from University 6 (i.e. Louisville) in a July 27 Las Vegas hotel meeting where Bowen was reference in trying to set up a plan to get another player graduating in 2019 to come. So someone at Louisville knew and actively helped in July 2017. This is death penalty level stuff for them.

This is one page 21 of this complaint.

https://www.justice.gov/usao-sdny/press-release/file/998751/download

[billy]

Calling swood (or others):

What's the NCAA's role here? It's a criminal indictment, so obviously subject to governmental involvement. Would the NCAA sit on the sidelines until it all shakes out then act, if at all?

[uh_no]

Louisville is not a cultural match with anyone else in the ACC

except:

UNC
Miami
FSU
Syracuse

[BoiseDevil]

This is a bad story, and is only going to get worse I'd imagine, but let's all remember that it wouldn't even be a story in the first place if they'd just let the players be paid.

Think about that for a moment...

Describe me the system that pays the elite players enough such that they and their inner circle are paid enough to be immune to bribery.

The inner workings of any lucrative enterprise is susceptible to human nature, in this example, GREED.

I'm not saying don't pay the athletes, I'm just saying behind most piles of money is a lie or two. I'd say we've seen enough lies involving college athletics to expose the darkness behind the curtain. As long as the name of the game is "Win baby" and the coaches are paid $M per year, if you can't win fair, you'll cheat. The alternative is you have one season to get off the hot seat or you're fired. Many people's character won't stand up to that pressure.

I think of myself as having high character. I also believe if I'd stayed in Fortune 50 company any longer, I'd eventually have succumbed to a shortcut at some point to get ahead. Then, it's easy to get caught up in covering your tracks and before you know it, even you can't explain why you did what you did.

[sammy3469]

The Miami angle looks like it is the recruitment of Nassir Little who they and Arizona want (University 4) who they got in a bidding war with (he's the only 2018 recruit that has interest in Zona and Miami). Also of note, UNC is involved with him.

[OldPhiKap]

The Miami angle looks like it is the recruitment of Nassir Little who they and Arizona want (University 4) who they got in a bidding war with (he's the only 2018 recruit that has interest in Zona and Miami). Also of note, UNC is involved with him.

I would be cautious about guilt by association -- Miami and Arizona allegedly did something shady in recruiting X, so any other school that is interested may have done something shady too.

Not that you are saying that, sammy. Just aimed at the broader point. I imagine we may have showed interest in a top player or two who may be involved in the allegations, without knowledge of what other schools were allegedly "offering" to come there.

[sammy3469]

BTW four of the 2018 top 10 recruit list is incredibly suspect in light of these indictments.

Bol Bol - USC and Zona
Langford - 'Ville with UNC and other Adidas schools Indiana/Kansas thrown in
Shittu - Zona with UNC
Little - UNC, Zona, Miami

Which school doesn't belong?

[Troublemaker]

As a non-lawyer, do I have this right?

The feds have jurisdiction here because
(a) schools receive federal funding, and
(b) the bribe was wired

?

Thanks in advance.

[bob blue devil]

I also won't be shocked if more Adidas schools are named down the line especially if Gatto flips. Gatto is a big Adidas honcho, so he knows where everything is buried. Big 5 schools that fall into that category are AZ St, Ga Tech, Indiana, Kansas, Miss St, NC State, Nebraska, Rutgers, and Texas A&M.

wouldn't gatto be very very high on the list of people to nail, rather than cut a deal with? unless this thing goes higher at adidas, i suppose.

[chris13]

This is a bad story, and is only going to get worse I'd imagine, but let's all remember that it wouldn't even be a story in the first place if they'd just let the players be paid.

Agreed. The lengths that our universities will go to to maintain the fiction of amateur athletics is a scandal. The fact that people are indicted for a "crime" to maintain this fiction is a travesty. This problem would be solved if professional, revenue generating sports were severed from amateur, university based athletics.

[UrinalCake]

Wonder how many of the coaches for the programs involved are going to attempt the "I had no idea anything was going on" defense?

[flyingdutchdevil]

Wonder how many of the coaches for the programs involved are going to attempt the "I had no idea anything was going on" defense?

All of them. Absolutely all of them.

[OldPhiKap]

As a non-lawyer, do I have this right?

The feds have jurisdiction here because
(a) schools receive federal funding, and
(b) the bribe was wired

?

Thanks in advance.

Have not looked at the indictments, but both of those would give federal jurisdiction. The wiring moreso for criminal purposes.

[Dukehky]

If an assistant did something wrong under Frank Martin, they may never find the body. Just sayin'

I assume the same, although in this undisclosed part of the world the only USC is in Columbia.

USC is in Los Angeles, Carolina is in Chapel Hill, and the University in South Carolina has always been and will always be in Clemson. Print dat Tweet dat.

Not surprised, but always relieved when someone at Duke didn't do anything stupid and get involved in this. Love ya Cape!

[sammy3469]

wouldn't gatto be very very high on the list of people to nail, rather than cut a deal with? unless this thing goes higher at adidas, i suppose.

Some of the tweets by reporters are implying that there will be bigger names. If (big IF) this is like the FIFA bribery scheme, they're basically trying to get Gatto (or more likely Adidas) to flip. This was a well planned and executed sting operation with wire taps, video and audio recordings, and financial records.

PURE SPECULATION:...For instance, the complaint involved Louisville has references to Pitino calling in favors. They would need Gatto or one of the assistants to flip to get Pitino (may be why the assistant wasn't charge like some others).

[OldPhiKap]

USC is in Los Angeles, Carolina is in Chapel Hill, and the University in South Carolina has always been and will always be in Clemson. Print dat Tweet dat.



That literally made me chortle. Well done!

[FadedTackyShirt]

Yeah, there are other reports surfacing now that Bowen's family was paid 6-figures to attend an Adidas school and that Louisville was the school of choice. While there is nothing that indicates Pitino or anyone at Louisville knew what was going on, this is yet another stain on Pitino. One wonders if he can survive another major scandal.

-Jason "I really wish the ACC had gone elsewhere for another team... Louisville is not a cultural match with anyone else in the ACC" Evans

Petrino/Pitino is an incredibly sleazy duo.

[UrinalCake]

Ok crazy question here but why are the Feds involved with this? Paying money to lure a recruit is obviously in violation of all kinds of NCAA rules, but is it actually a crime?

[OldPhiKap]

Ok crazy question here but why are the Feds involved with this? Paying money to lure a recruit is obviously in violation of all kinds of NCAA rules, but is it actually a crime?

Perhaps the same reason the feds went after Lance Armstrong. A U.S. Attorney wants to make a name for himself or herself. Are all the indictments in the same district?

Cannot see this as a huge priority in federal law enforcement.

[Ballboy1998]

Perhaps the same reason the feds went after Lance Armstrong. A U.S. Attorney wants to make a name for himself or herself. Are all the indictments in the same district?

Cannot see this as a huge priority in federal law enforcement.

Bribes = unreported = untaxed. Gotta get that cash!

[SCMatt33]

I don't know why he wasn't arrested, but there is a Coach-1 from University 6 (i.e. Louisville) in a July 27 Las Vegas hotel meeting where Bowen was reference in trying to set up a plan to get another player graduating in 2019 to come. So someone at Louisville knew and actively helped in July 2017. This is death penalty level stuff for them.

This is one page 21 of this complaint.

https://www.justice.gov/usao-sdny/press-release/file/998751/download

There is a specific reason I didn't mention death penalty when I first mentioned the repeat violatir clause. While the clause is (supposed to be) a necessary component in any death penalty punishment, being a repeat violator does not necessarily imply that punishment will be handed down. In fact, the details that are now coming out put this somewhere in Reggie Bush territory. USC was in fact a repeat violator in that case and received multiple years of postseason ban, heavy scholarship losses and vacation of records (N/A for Bowen on the last one since he hasn't played yet). The NCAA is extremely hesitant to use the death penalty and I don't really expect it here, even if it was within the bylaws to use it

[sagegrouse]

This is a really big deal. I expect Pitino will be fired and Louisville will be on probation for years and years.

The Auburn case is about influencing an athlete to pick an agent -- not necessarily at the same level as "buying players."

I'll wait for someone else to go through the docs and I'll watch the noon press conference.

[BeachBlueDevil]

Interesting thing to watch is what happens with Kansas (don't think they've been named) as an Adidas school. It looks as if Andrew Wiggins is an Adidas athlete with a signature shoe and Joel Embid is also signed with them. I could be grasping at straws with this connection but it's interesting.

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

This is a bad story, and is only going to get worse I'd imagine, but let's all remember that it wouldn't even be a story in the first place if they'd just let the players be paid.

Sure. And I am a big advocate of player rights, but this argument is weak. Sort of like saying "I got pulled over for speeding, but the limit should be 15 mph higher there anyway."

[OldPhiKap]

Bribes = unreported = untaxed. Gotta get that cash!

Need that cash to feed that jones, true.

Still, the majority of prosecutions in my part of the world are drug charges, and felons in possession of firearms. Tax cases are the low-hanging fruit of earned income credit fraud.

[Wahoo2000]

Starting to look like one AZ player involved was Jahvon Quinerly (5 star thought to be deciding between UVA and Nova when AZ made a strong push, even after already having another star PG in the same class). Based on visit dates mentioned in the complaint and the work of one AZ fan on reddit:

https://www.reddit.com/r/CollegeBasketball/comments/72kart/fbi_arrests_several_ncaa_asst_coaches_in/dnj54fu/

[RPS]

Think about that for a moment...

Describe me the system that pays the elite players enough such that they and their inner circle are paid enough to be immune to bribery.

The inner workings of any lucrative enterprise is susceptible to human nature, in this example, GREED. You have a point. But the current system in a multi-billion dollar industry whose most valuable assets cannot be paid legally. That means that ancillary people will be overpaid (which explains, for example, why Nick Saban, unsuccessful at the highest level, is paid far more than any coach in the NFL), that "competition" will focus on ancillary things (e.g., "facilities" such as flat screen televisions being used as name plates) and, most importantly, that under-the-table payments to obtain the most valuable assets are inevitable.

[BigWayne]

Ok crazy question here but why are the Feds involved with this? Paying money to lure a recruit is obviously in violation of all kinds of NCAA rules, but is it actually a crime?


It's the heels fault. Remember back in 2014 when the NCAA was dragging their feet over the cheats scandal? Tony Cardenas (D-CA 29th District) called for the feds to look into it. Probably helped steer some funding towards investigations.

[sammy3469]

Need that cash to feed that jones, true.

Still, the majority of prosecutions in my part of the world are drug charges, and felons in possession of firearms. Tax cases are the low-hanging fruit of earned income credit fraud.

FWIW, I wouldn't be shocked if this is an outgrowth of some investigation of Munish Sood who runs an IA/BDC who has done some opaque transactions over the years. This is just the more sexy angle of pay-to-play.

http://fortune.com/2015/10/23/investment-firm-led-by-ex-nfl-player-faces-big-lawsuit/

[OldPhiKap]

I note that the title of the thread is that folks were "arrested." Has anyone been taken in, or have they merely been indicted?

Maybe a difference only a lawyer cares about, but there is a big difference between the two.

[Hingeknocker]

Sure. And I am a big advocate of player rights, but this argument is weak. Sort of like saying "I got pulled over for speeding, but the limit should be 15 mph higher there anyway."

Your analogy makes sense only if you add that there are a bunch of people who are perfectly allowed to drive that extra 15 mph, and actually the only people who are restricted from going that extra 15 mph are college athletes, and there are piles and piles and piles and piles of incentives for outside sources to give the athletes the ability to get at least a few extra mph out of the deal, and now I think I've tortured the analogy long enough. Just pay them and save everybody the brain cells.

[dudog84]

Yeah, there are other reports surfacing now that Bowen's family was paid 6-figures to attend an Adidas school and that Louisville was the school of choice. While there is nothing that indicates Pitino or anyone at Louisville knew what was going on, this is yet another stain on Pitino. One wonders if he can survive another major scandal.

-Jason "I really wish the ACC had gone elsewhere for another team... Louisville is not a cultural match with anyone else in the ACC" Evans

Louisville was 11-2 (including a Sugar Bowl win) and 12-1 in the two years before joining the ACC. They also regularly pull 50,000+ to home games. Football. That is the reason they joined the ACC, no other.

And yes Jason, I know that you knew that.

[devildeac]

There have been recent rumors that Papa John (who's a BIG donor at Louisville) wanted Pitino gone. Did he know something was coming?

Whoa now. Papa John is a well-respected poster here.

[devildeac]

U of L, a fine member of the ACC:

Almost
Completely
Corrupt

[DukieInKansas]

I note that the title of the thread is that folks were "arrested." Has anyone been taken in, or have they merely been indicted?

Maybe a difference only a lawyer cares about, but there is a big difference between the two.

Arrests were made per this article: https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/college-basketball-coaches-allegedly-took-bribes-agents-deliver-athletes-n804781

"The FBI made the arrests across the country overnight, a senior law enforcement official told NBC News.

Among those arrested was James Gatto, director of global sports marketing for Adidas, who was accused of paying high school basketball players or their families for committing to sign with a university sponsored by Adidas. The complaint identifies $250,000 in payments made by Gatto and other co-defendants."

[dudog84]

Your analogy makes sense only if you add that there are a bunch of people who are perfectly allowed to drive that extra 15 mph, and actually the only people who are restricted from going that extra 15 mph are college athletes, and there are piles and piles and piles and piles of incentives for outside sources to give the athletes the ability to get at least a few extra mph out of the deal, and now I think I've tortured the analogy long enough. Just pay them and save everybody the brain cells.

I believe the only solution is to have semi-pro leagues for basketball and football and let the kids go "pro" right out of high school if they want. If they go to college, they can't be drafted for 3 years (gee, doesn't this sound like baseball?). Might be a bit tough on a kid like Luke who blossomed as a sophomore, but that would be the choice that the kid made for himself. And with Luke as the example, he would have only had to "tough it out" for 1 more year. Also think how much more he would have shone against "lesser" competition.

Come to think of it, we could probably compete against Alabama in football in this scenario.

I for one watch college ball for the competition. I realize I may be in the minority here. If it's about watching the best athletes, that's what the pros are for. I would much rather watch the kids grow and mature over a few years in college. That used to be part of the enjoyment.

America has completely bastardized the college student-athlete model on many levels. And in so doing, have cheapened and in some cases tarnished universities. The kids are 18, legal adults, they should be allowed to make money on their skills if they want. Tennis players, baseball players, entrepreneurs etc. all have that opportunity. Only basketball and football players are shoe-horned into college.

[swood1000]

As a non-lawyer, do I have this right?

The feds have jurisdiction here because
(a) schools receive federal funding, and
(b) the bribe was wired

?

Thanks in advance.
The main charges are violations of federal statutes:
 
• 18 U.S. Code § 666 - Theft or bribery concerning programs receiving Federal funds

• 18 U.S. Code § 1343 - Fraud by wire, radio, or television

Whoever, having devised or intending to devise any scheme or artifice to defraud, or for obtaining money or property by means of false or fraudulent pretenses, representations, or promises, transmits or causes to be transmitted by means of wire, radio, or television communication in interstate or foreign commerce, any writings, signs, signals, pictures, or sounds for the purpose of executing such scheme or artifice, shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than 20 years, or both.


•18 U.S. Code § 1349 - Attempt and conspiracy

Any person who attempts or conspires to commit any offense under this chapter shall be subject to the same penalties as those prescribed for the offense, the commission of which was the object of the attempt or conspiracy.


•18 U.S. Code § 1956(h) - Conspiracy to launder monetary instruments

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

Your analogy makes sense only if you add that there are a bunch of people who are perfectly allowed to drive that extra 15 mph, and actually the only people who are restricted from going that extra 15 mph are college athletes, and there are piles and piles and piles and piles of incentives for outside sources to give the athletes the ability to get at least a few extra mph out of the deal, and now I think I've tortured the analogy long enough. Just pay them and save everybody the brain cells.

Yes. They earn all the money and make none. But you can't do illegal things with the rationale "but it SHOULD be legal." That isn't how the law works.

[UrinalCake]

I'm trying to follow the story on twitter, as many are reacting to the press conference. A common theme is that the story could become even bigger, that others may be involved and more names will surface. Not a good day for college b-ball or college sports in general.

Although selfishly speaking, I have been considering Louisville to be our biggest competition in the ACC this year and Arizona to be our biggest competition nationally. So if those two schools are deemed ineligible, well then WHEEEEEE!!!

[dudog84]

I'm trying to follow the story on twitter, as many are reacting to the press conference. A common theme is that the story could become even bigger, that others may be involved and more names will surface. Not a good day for college b-ball or college sports in general.

Although selfishly speaking, I have been considering Louisville to be our biggest competition in the ACC this year and Arizona to be our biggest competition nationally. So if those two schools are deemed ineligible, well then WHEEEEEE!!!

Not to take your joy away, but it probably won't happen that fast. Arizona in particular, if they feel they have a chance at a national championship this year, will pull a uNC. Delay, delay, delay.

[killerleft]

You have a point. But the current system in a multi-billion dollar industry whose most valuable assets cannot be paid legally. That means that ancillary people will be overpaid (which explains, for example, why Nick Saban, unsuccessful at the highest level, is paid far more than any coach in the NFL), that "competition" will focus on ancillary things (e.g., "facilities" such as flat screen televisions being used as name plates) and, most importantly, that under-the-table payments to obtain the most valuable assets are inevitable.

Nobody makes these players come to college. They have other options if they want to get paid. Since college is where they can increase their worth (in addition to getting a free ride to college), I'm not crying for them. Bilas is doing enough whining for everybody.

Before you ask, if they want NBA money, sue the NBA. The colleges have no input concerning the age limit of NBA players.

[UrinalCake]

Not to take your joy away, but it probably won't happen that fast. Arizona in particular, if they feel they have a chance at a national championship this year, will pull a uNC. Delay, delay, delay.

I would have to think at the very least that Bowen will be ineligible. Or if they play him then they'll risk having to later vacate those games. Not sure if any specific players for AZ have been named.

[Henderson]

Perhaps the same reason the feds went after Lance Armstrong. A U.S. Attorney wants to make a name for himself or herself. Are all the indictments in the same district?

Cannot see this as a huge priority in federal law enforcement.

According to the indictments, this investigation began in 2015, when Preet Bharara was the U.S. Attorney in that district (Southern District of New York). But the indictments were handed down under the authority of the Acting U.S. Attorney, Joon Kim, who took over from Bharara when Bharara was fired earlier this year by President Trump. The investigation was conducted by the FBI, operating under James Comey (when the investigation began), continued under Andrew McCabe (as Acting FBI Director) and Christopher Wray (current FBI Director). So if these indictments represent an attempt by someone to make a name for himself, there seem to be several people scrambling for the limelight.

Three things in the indictments suggest that this is just the beginning:

1. The indictments repeatedly refer to the bad actors as including not just the named defendants, but "others known and unknown." Such language is included either to send tingles down the spines of other folks the FBI is investigating, shake the trees to see who else falls out, or both. Why not indict the other "known" bad guys? Because they are talking terms with the US Attorney's office regarding their potential indictments or cooperation. And the U.S. Attorney is being carefully ambiguous about what they have. Fear of the unknown is always stronger than the fear of the known. And fear is what will cause other people to cooperate. The best deals are made with those who come forward early, and these folks will learn that as soon as they consult their lawyers.

2. The indictments describe meetings and cash payments witnessed by a confidential informer. So the FBI has already has someone on the inside, perhaps someone whom they flipped.

3. The indictments also mention the participation of an undercover FBI Agent in those meetings and payments. So that makes two people on the inside, an informer and an undercover FBI Agent. That's really bad news for the named defendants AND for the others "known and unknown". Double whammy ouch. Envelopes containing thousands of dollars in cash trading hands at meetings witnessed by an FBI Agent and confidential informant? Bummer.

As for the federal criminal hook, the primary focus of the indictment seems to be 18 USC Section 666(a), which is entitled, "Theft or bribery concerning programs receiving Federal funds". In this context, it makes it a federal crime to bribe (or try to bribe) a coach at a school receiving federal funds.

Unless this is complete garbage (and it doesn't look like it, given the specificity in the indictments), this is just the beginning. Expect more in the coming weeks as people start to come forward and roll over.

[Nick]

Why is it illegal for Adidas to give money to somebody to attend a particular school? I understand that it's shady but I can't articulate why exactly.

[MChambers]

FWIW, I wouldn't be shocked if this is an outgrowth of some investigation of Munish Sood who runs an IA/BDC who has done some opaque transactions over the years. This is just the more sexy angle of pay-to-play.

http://fortune.com/2015/10/23/investment-firm-led-by-ex-nfl-player-faces-big-lawsuit/
Probably the only CBB board where you can find a reference to investment advisers and business development companies. Not sure I see any reason to think Sood has any connection to this investigation, however.

Edit: I see Sood is named in the complaint. So sammy3469 may well be right about the origins of this case.

[SoCalDukeFan]

I understand that this is a developing story and more will come out.

So far it seems like there are two types of allegations:
1. Adidas paid players to go to certain schools and coaches knew about it. Obvious major NCAA violation.

2. Coaches were paid to steer players to agents, financial advisors, etc. Not sure if this is an NCAA violation. Certainly an ethical violation and because of probable not being reported on tax returns and other reports a legal issue.


SoCal

[MChambers]

I understand that this is a developing story and more will come out.

So far it seems like there are two types of allegations:
1. Adidas paid players to go to certain schools and coaches knew about it. Obvious major NCAA violation.

2. Coaches were paid to steer players to agents, financial advisors, etc. Not sure if this is an NCAA violation. Certainly an ethical violation and because of probable not being reported on tax returns and other reports a legal issue.


SoCal
If any of the financial advisors were registered investment advisers with either the SEC or one or more states, they’d have to disclose the payments on their registration forms.

[sammy3469]

According to the indictments, this investigation began in 2015, when Preet Bharara was the U.S. Attorney in that district (Southern District of New York). But the indictments were handed down under the authority of the Acting U.S. Attorney, Joon Kim, who took over from Bharara when Bharara was fired earlier this year by President Trump. The investigation was conducted by the FBI, operating under James Comey (when the investigation began), continued under Andrew McCabe (as Acting FBI Director) and Christopher Wray (current FBI Director). So if these indictments represent an attempt by someone to make a name for himself, there seem to be several people scrambling for the limelight.

Three things in the indictments suggest that this is just the beginning:

1. The indictments repeatedly refer to the bad actors as including not just the named defendants, but "others known and unknown." Such language is included either to send tingles down the spines of other folks the FBI is investigating, shake the trees to see who else falls out, or both. Why not indict the other "known" bad guys? Because they are talking terms with the US Attorney's office regarding their potential indictments or cooperation. And the U.S. Attorney is being carefully ambiguous about what they have. Fear of the unknown is always stronger than the fear of the known. And fear is what will cause other people to cooperate. The best deals are made with those who come forward early, and these folks will learn that as soon as they consult their lawyers.

2. The indictments describe meetings and cash payments witnessed by a confidential informer. So the FBI has already has someone on the inside, perhaps someone whom they flipped.

3. The indictments also mention the participation of an undercover FBI Agent in those meetings and payments. So that makes two people on the inside, an informer and an undercover FBI Agent. That's really bad news for the named defendants AND for the others "known and unknown". Double whammy ouch.

As for the federal criminal hook, the primary focus of the indictment seems to be 18 USC Section 666(a), which is entitled, "Theft or bribery concerning programs receiving Federal funds". In this context, it makes it a federal crime to bribe (or try to bribe) a coach at a school receiving federal funds.

Unless this is complete garbage (and it doesn't look like it, given the specificity in the indictments), this is just the beginning. Expect more in the coming weeks as people start to come forward and roll over.

They basically turned one financial adviser facing fraud charges who linked them with Sood and Dawkins. With the way he was talking in the press conference, these indictments certainly seem like the low-hanging fruit that they could do with direct wire tap or video surveillance. It won't be surprising if there is more to come once these first indicted guys start looking for deals especially Gatto.

If people are looking for an analog, this is almost exactly what they did in the FIFA case with Chuck Blazer being the informant who wore the wire.

[75Crazie]

Nobody makes these players come to college. They have other options if they want to get paid.
Oh come on, do you really believe that? Do you really believe that there is any other realistic avenue towards professional basketball and football that does not involve attending a college? There should be, and maybe the NBA developmental league is on its way towards that goal ... but the opportunities it provides for advancement are still limited and are nowhere as visible as college basketball. And football does not even have that. The only sensible solution is a minor league approach similar to baseball, where young athletes are given a choice. And that will never happen unless enough people recognize the hypocrisy in so-called "college" revenue sports and demand a change. And that, in turn, will never happen.

[Nick]

Check out this old quote (https://twitter.com/_ChrisHatfield/status/912679817342017542) from Pitino on how UL ended up with Bowen... "In my 40 years of coaching this is the luckiest I've been."

[DukieInKansas]

Probably the only CBB board where you can find a reference to investment advisers and business development companies. Not sure I see any reason to think Sood has any connection to this investigation, however.

Edit: I see Sood is named in the complaint. So sammy3469 may well be right about the origins of this case.

He is one of the 10 named in the court documents per ESPN: http://www.espn.com/mens-college-basketball/story/_/id/20824193/ncaa-basketball-coaches-10-charged-fraud-corruption So, he has some kind of connection - doesn't mean he is guilty of anything.

Oops - slow on the response. Saw your edit after I posted.

[Nick]

Why is it illegal for Adidas to give money to somebody to attend a particular school? I understand that it's shady but I can't articulate why exactly.

I think I found an answer to my question in the Reddit thread:


I will quote the complaint directly "In addition, Chuck Connors Person, arranged for Witness to make payments directly to the families of the players Person was sterring to Witness. These payments defrauded University by depriving it of the finanical aid University continued to award to the relevant student atheletes under false pretenses." So essentially, Business professional gave money to players family through Defendant (in this case Persons). This in turn defrauded the federal government by giving people Federal aid that they would not otherwise receive.

[sammy3469]

Probably the only CBB board where you can find a reference to investment advisers and business development companies. Not sure I see any reason to think Sood has any connection to this investigation, however.

Edit: I see Sood is named in the complaint. So sammy3469 may well be right about the origins of this case.

The FBI flipped one financial adviser who put the FBI into the loop with Sood who is central to both of the alleged schemes. Keep in mind this is an outgrowth of their overall investigations into financial advisers ripping athletes off. From limited googling, Sood and his firm seem like they run on the edge a whole lot of the time (and frankly were probably on the radar even before this direct case).

[MarkD83]

I really really hope the NCAA doesn't use this to take the focus off of uNC.

This was exactly my first thought.

[MChambers]

The FBI flipped one financial adviser who put the FBI into the loop with Sood who is central to both of the alleged schemes. Keep in mind this is an outgrowth of their overall investigations into financial advisers ripping athletes off. From limited googling, Sood and his firm seem like they run on the edge a whole lot of the time (and frankly were probably on the radar even before this direct case).
Friends at the SEC have long expressed concern to me about some BDCs.

[swood1000]

I don't know why he wasn't arrested, but there is a Coach-1 from University 6 (i.e. Louisville) in a July 27 Las Vegas hotel meeting where Bowen was reference in trying to set up a plan to get another player graduating in 2019 to come. So someone at Louisville knew and actively helped in July 2017. This is death penalty level stuff for them.

This is one page 21 of this complaint.

https://www.justice.gov/usao-sdny/press-release/file/998751/download
University-6 is in trouble. According to the complaint:


Noting that University-6 was already on probation with the NCAA, DAWKINS indicated that they would have to be particularly careful with how they passed money to Player-11 and his family. Coach-1 agreed, stating "we gotta be very low key."

This conversation was alleged to have happened on July 27, 2017 (also attended by an assistant coach from University-6). Louisville was placed on probation June 15, 2017.


The repeat-violator legislation (http://www.ncaa.org/enforcement/enforcement-process-penalties) (“death penalty”) is applicable to an institution if, within a five-year period, the following conditions exist:
 
• Following the announcement of a major case, a major violation occurs and

• The second violation occurred within five years of the starting date of the penalty assessed in the first case. The second major case does not have to be in the same sport as the previous case to affect the second sport.

• Penalties for repeat violators of legislation, subject to exemptions authorized by the committee on the basis of specifically stated reasons, may include any of the following:
• The prohibition of some or all outside competition in the sport involved in the latest major violation for one or two sport seasons and the prohibition of all coaching staff members in that sport from involvement (directly or indirectly) in any coaching activities at the institution during that period
• The elimination of all initial grants-in-aid and recruiting activities in the sport involved in the latest major violation in question for a two-year period.
• The requirement that all institutional staff member serving on the NCAA Board of Directors; Leadership, Legislative, Presidents or Management Councils; Executive Committee or other Association governance bodies resign their positions. All institutional representatives shall be ineligible to serve on any NCAA committee for a period of four years and
• The requirement that the institution relinquish its Association voting privileges for a four-year period.

[wsb3]

My hope is that the NCAA determines it has to take a strong stand to protect what little is left of its reputation. Hammer time.

That was my first thought OPK.

[killerleft]

Oh come on, do you really believe that? Do you really believe that there is any other realistic avenue towards professional basketball and football that does not involve attending a college? There should be, and maybe the NBA developmental league is on its way towards that goal ... but the opportunities it provides for advancement are still limited and are nowhere as visible as college basketball. And football does not even have that. The only sensible solution is a minor league approach similar to baseball, where young athletes are given a choice. And that will never happen unless enough people recognize the hypocrisy in so-called "college" revenue sports and demand a change. And that, in turn, will never happen.

I don't believe college players should be paid. I DO believe that college affords them the further opportunity to make themselves financially secure through their 'audition' for pro scouts. If a player makes millions after his one successful year in college, I don't think anyone would deny that the opportunity for this was a direct result of his being measured against other competition and rewarded as the pros see fit.

Added: IF there were a minor league for budding NBAers, the players would NOT command very much money, in my book. It is the highly visible COLLEGE sports scene that affords them the opportunity to showcase their talents. College sports command attention, not minor league sports.

[RPS]

Nobody makes these players come to college.Strictly speaking, you are correct. But I know of no American player who succeeded in the NBA without first going to college other than those who, under a prior CBA, went to the NBA straight out of high school. In any event, it's not a promising path to avoid college.


They have other options if they want to get paid.There are no practical options.


Since college is where they can increase their worth (in addition to getting a free ride to college), I'm not crying for them.By this logic, Bill Gates could have been forced to serve an unpaid internship (with tuition, room and board covered) to "increase his worth" before going out on his own. Or Jennifer Lawrence. Or Taylor Swift. Or or or. In any other context, this claim would seem remarkably silly.


Bilas is doing enough whining for everybody.Bilas is one of the few media stars actually willing to speak truth to power despite the monstrous incentives for him to go along and get along.


Before you ask, if they want NBA money, sue the NBA. The colleges have no input concerning the age limit of NBA players.Again, strictly speaking, that's true. And the lawsuit would not be successful because labor law supersedes individual rights in this instance. Net/net, the NBA and the NCAA have a nice little scam going. The NCAA gets free labor and the NBA gets a free minor league system. In each case, those multi-billion dollar entities get generally what they want. The only ones without freedom are the players, who are young and who are disproportionately poor and black -- they have no clout whatsoever. Most people don't care about them in this regard because we'd all love to be one of them and love what we get out of the deal -- great college basketball (if not as great as it used to be).

[Henderson]

University-6 is in trouble. According to the complaint:



This conversation was alleged to have happened on July 27, 2017 (also attended by an assistant coach from University-6). Louisville was placed on probation June 15, 2017.

Gary Parrish at CBS Sports quoted that exact conversation in connection with Louisville. He may be wrong, but it doesn't look so good for Rick "Lucky" Pitino's program.

First it was hookers, and Pitino said "I had no idea." Next it's bribes, and Pitino says he just got lucky to land the recruit. At some point, ignoring the malfeasance of your assistants becomes a lack of institutional control. Louisville is gonna get smacked, and Pitino is toast. Maybe Minnesota needs an assistant? I hear Rick has connections there.

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

This thread is getting derailed by "should/shouldn't college athletes get paid." That is an interesting question, but irrelevant to whether or not it is illegal as all get out to bribe amateur athletes to go to a particular college.

It is wrong, illegal, and counter to the concept of amateurism. If you don't like the rules, fine, neither do I. But not obeying the rules is still cheating.

[Hingeknocker]

This thread is getting derailed by "should/shouldn't college athletes get paid." That is an interesting question, but irrelevant to whether or not it is illegal as all get out to bribe amateur athletes to go to a particular college.

It is wrong, illegal, and counter to the concept of amateurism. If you don't like the rules, fine, neither do I. But not obeying the rules is still cheating.

If anyone is not viewing this story through the lens of why the conditions for black market payments to the players exist, they're doing an incredible disservice to themselves.

[Troublemaker]

Perhaps the same reason the feds went after Lance Armstrong. A U.S. Attorney wants to make a name for himself or herself. Are all the indictments in the same district?

Cannot see this as a huge priority in federal law enforcement.

In my head, there's a U.S. attorney who's a huge college basketball fan and understands the impact of these indictments, which is that, as of today, the black market for college basketball talent has momentarily been suspended. That doesn't mean the black market won't rev up again in the future, but that process could take weeks, maybe months. Right now, all the shoe company reps, player agents, schools, and coaches who were dirty are in a panic and have to stop and re-evaluate what they've been doing to make sure they're not the next names to be indicted. Any wiring of money that was planned to go out today has been scrapped.

These next few months might be the cleanest college basketball recruiting has been in years.

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

If anyone is not viewing this story through the lens of why the conditions for black market payments to the players exist, they're doing an incredible disservice to themselves.

So you would feel okay if Duke were involved in this case? Since it is just emblematic of the corrupt system?

Teams employing this conduct are cheating. I am fine with not condemning the players who are victims of this jacked up situation, but the schools PAYING six figures to lure players from other schools are skewing the field of competition.

[RPS]

It is wrong, illegal, and counter to the concept of amateurism. If you don't like the rules, fine, neither do I. But not obeying the rules is still cheating.I completely agree.


This thread is getting derailed by "should/shouldn't college athletes get paid." That is an interesting question, but irrelevant to whether or not it is illegal as all get out to bribe amateur athletes to go to a particular college.Yes, it is arguably irrelevant (strictly speaking). But it goes a long way toward describing why the bribery is all but inevitable. There isn't much that's complicated about the cheating aspect. If the accuseds did what they are charged with doing, they (and ultimately their schools) will be in big trouble. But in terms of overall impact on college sports, the why and its inevitability are the significant and interesting questions to me.

[UrinalCake]

If anyone is not viewing this story through the lens of why the conditions for black market payments to the players exist, they're doing an incredible disservice to themselves.

To me, the issue is the NBA not letting players go pro straight out of high school, moreso than the issue of paying them. If they could do that then these top players would have no part of the college system and agents would have no need to bribe coaches. But as others have said, even if colleges could pay players you'd still have agents and boosters trying to steer them to certain schools.

[SoCalDukeFan]

If any of the financial advisors were registered investment advisers with either the SEC or one or more states, they’d have to disclose the payments on their registration forms.

is that an NCAA violation.

However it is alleged that some of the money went from the asst. coach to players' families which is clearly an NCAA violation.

SoCal

[sammy3469]

Friends at the SEC have long expressed concern to me about some BDCs.

FWIW, the complaint says the investment firm/individual co-operating with the FBI settled with the FBI on May 6th, 2016. Looks like it is Louis Blazer. The SEC complaint only lists one of Blazer's two firms. Interestingly the other one was left out, but was eventually sold to another "Investment Advisory Firm in New Jersey". Well if you check out Munish Sood's IARD filing, one of his previous employments was Princeton-Blazer Advisors, LLC in 2013. There's your connection.

https://www.sec.gov/news/pressrelease/2016-83.html
https://www.sec.gov/litigation/complaints/2016/comp-pr2016-83.pdf
https://adviserinfo.sec.gov/IAPD/Support/ReportViewer.aspx?indvl_pk=2805974

[SoCalDukeFan]

I have a friend and relative my marriage who is a former assistant coach at several Division I schools. He says that his is the "tip of the iceberg."

SoCal

[Henderson]

Wasn't this the pattern that led to the SMU football "death penalty"? A school on probation continues its pattern of recruiting violations? And in this case, the indictment apparently charges Louisville with engaging in this behavior less than two weeks after being placed by the NCAA on probation. That can't go over well.

Given that the NCAA reportedly wasn't even aware of this investigation by the FBI and US Attorney's office until today, it'll take the enforcement staff some time to ramp up. But if I were a Louisville fan or alum, I'd be depressed about the future.

[Troublemaker]

Not to take your joy away, but it probably won't happen that fast. Arizona in particular, if they feel they have a chance at a national championship this year, will pull a uNC. Delay, delay, delay.


I would have to think at the very least that Bowen will be ineligible. Or if they play him then they'll risk having to later vacate those games. Not sure if any specific players for AZ have been named.

Agreed that Bowen won't play this season, but other than that, I agree with dudog84 that Arizona and Lville's seasons likely won't be impacted. The NCAA is very slow. And that's fine. I really like this Duke team. Bring it.

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

I completely agree.

Yes, it is arguably irrelevant (strictly speaking). But it goes a long way toward describing why the bribery is all but inevitable. There isn't much that's complicated about the cheating aspect. If the accuseds did what they are charged with doing, they (and ultimately their schools) will be in big trouble. But in terms of overall impact on college sports, the why and its inevitability are the significant and interesting questions to me.

Inevitable? Really?

[atoomer0881]

...

By this logic, Bill Gates could have been forced to serve an unpaid internship (with tuition, room and board covered) to "increase his worth" before going out on his own. Or Jennifer Lawrence. Or Taylor Swift. Or or or. In any other context, this claim would seem remarkably silly.

...

Just to address this one specific point of yours, I wouldn't exactly say that's an apples to apples comparison you are stating. The difference is those people went out on their own. Basketball players want to play for an established organization that has age restrictions in place. While people may or may not agree with that age restriction, it's not the same thing as saying they can't go out on their own. If a record label had an age restriction, then TSwift could sign elsewhere. If a production company had an age restriction, then Jennifer Lawrence can act in another movie. And if the NBA has an age restriction, then basketball players can play elsewhere (such as college or overseas). Now those secondary options may not be as viable, but they are still options nonetheless.

And now back to our regularly scheduled programming, i.e. the downfall of Louisville.

[Hingeknocker]

So you would feel okay if Duke were involved in this case? Since it is just emblematic of the corrupt system?

Teams employing this conduct are cheating. I am fine with not condemning the players who are victims of this jacked up situation, but the schools PAYING six figures to lure players from other schools are skewing the field of competition.

I assume that every single school in Division 1 is participating in something to this extent. Even if Duke is not, specifically, doing what's alleged today, they are still a very large part of a corrupt system that has built a multi-billion dollar industry while denying economic benefits to the ones most responsible for creating that value.

And yes, it is difficult to reconcile these beliefs with my Duke fandom. Thanks for asking!

[dudog84]

In my head, there's a U.S. attorney who's a huge college basketball fan and understands the impact of these indictments, which is that, as of today, the black market for college basketball talent has momentarily been suspended. That doesn't mean the black market won't rev up again in the future, but that process could take weeks, maybe months. Right now, all the shoe company reps, player agents, schools, and coaches who were dirty are in a panic and have to stop and re-evaluate what they've been doing to make sure they're not the next names to be indicted. Any wiring of money that was planned to go out today has been scrapped.

These next few months might be the cleanest college basketball recruiting has been in years.

Glad to see you're so optimistic. :D So you think it will last that long?

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

I assume that every single school in Division 1 is participating in something to this extent. Even if Duke is not, specifically, doing what's alleged today, they are still a very large part of a corrupt system that has built a multi-billion dollar industry while denying economic benefits to the ones most responsible for creating that value.

And yes, it is difficult to reconcile these beliefs with my Duke fandom. Thanks for asking!

I think you are conflating two wildly different but somewhat related issues here, thus clouding the discussion.

I, for one, would be devastated to learn that Duke was/is party to anything resembling this sort of action. It is cheating, plain and simple. It is the "win at any cost" that we sneer at down the road. It would absolutely impact my enthusiasm for and enjoyment of Duke sports.

If you (and I do!) think revenue sports athletes get hosed in college through limited financial opportunities, then fight the system, don't break the rules. It simply isn't how things are done, it weakens your cause, and it will get you tossed in jail.

[dudog84]

This thread is getting derailed by "should/shouldn't college athletes get paid." That is an interesting question, but irrelevant to whether or not it is illegal as all get out to bribe amateur athletes to go to a particular college.

It is wrong, illegal, and counter to the concept of amateurism. If you don't like the rules, fine, neither do I. But not obeying the rules is still cheating.

My goodness, a thread on DBR is getting derailed. I'm shocked. Shocked!

[RPS]

Inevitable? Really?I said "all but inevitable," and yes. With that much money at stake (lots of NCAA football assistant coaches make $1mm and more per year, for example; Alabama's outside linebackers coach makes $950k!), and since players cannot be paid legally, it is inevitable that some will cheat to try to get better players. It's pretty much Econ 101.

[MChambers]

FWIW, the complaint says the investment firm/individual co-operating with the FBI settled with the FBI on May 6th, 2016. Looks like it is Louis Blazer. The SEC complaint only lists one of Blazer's two firms. Interestingly the other one was left out, but was eventually sold to another "Investment Advisory Firm in New Jersey". Well if you check out Munish Sood's IARD filing, one of his previous employments was Princeton-Blazer Advisors, LLC in 2013. There's your connection.

https://www.sec.gov/news/pressrelease/2016-83.html
https://www.sec.gov/litigation/complaints/2016/comp-pr2016-83.pdf
https://adviserinfo.sec.gov/IAPD/Support/ReportViewer.aspx?indvl_pk=2805974

Excellent job of connecting the dots. There is also a sister firm that employed Sood, Princeton Advisory Wealth Management, or something like that. Likely is the one that provided advice to athletes.

https://www.adviserinfo.sec.gov/IAPD/IAPDFirmSummary.aspx?ORG_PK=159763

[swood1000]

Why is it illegal for Adidas to give money to somebody to attend a particular school? I understand that it's shady but I can't articulate why exactly.

Adidas global sports marketing director Jim Gatto was charged with wire fraud. The fraud was against the universities and consisted of making and concealing bribe payments to high school student-athletes in exchange for the student-athletes' commitment to play basketball for the universities, thereby
 
• causing the universities to agree to provide athletic scholarships to student-athletes who, in truth and in fact, were ineligible to compete as a result of the bribe payments, and

• depriving universities of their right to control the use of their assets, including the decision of how to allocate a limited amount of athletic scholarships, and which, if revealed, would have further exposed the universities to tangible economic harm, including monetary and other penalties imposed by the National Collegiate Athletic Association (the "NCAA").

Gatto also was charged with conspiring with student-athletes and coaches to obtain athletic-based financial aid for the student-athletes from NCAA Division I universities through false and fraudulent means (since paying them made them ineligible for the financial aid).

[dyedwab]

I'm not sanguine at all about this development & not gonna look askance at some of our rivals who are having issues.

1) This involves Adidas schools. When they start getting people to flip, are the Adidas guys gonna miss a chance to rat out the Nike/UnderArmor, etc. guys?

2) This indictment renders much of what the NCAA can & will do toothless. According to the press conference, the NCAA found out about this today. That very impotence will be a cudgel that many schools under investigation, like our friends down the road, will use this event to stall even further.

3) Simply, I think this creates an existential crisis for NCAA basketball that is just beginning...and it unclear whose gonna be taken down in the undertow.

[uh_no]

I'm not sanguine at all about this development & not gonna look askance at some of our rivals who are having issues.

1) This involves Adidas schools. When they start getting people to flip, are the Adidas guys gonna miss a chance to rat out the Nike/UnderArmor, etc. guys?

I can't wait for someone to cut a deal and rat out the whole lot. they would go up there with mary willengham and Mr. Met on my personal mount rushmore.

I love college sports, but I also love popcorn, and getting it ready.

[RPS]

The difference is those people went out on their own. Basketball players want to play for an established organization that has age restrictions in place. While people may or may not agree with that age restriction, it's not the same thing as saying they can't go out on their own. If a record label had an age restriction, then TSwift could sign elsewhere. If a production company had an age restriction, then Jennifer Lawrence can act in another movie. And if the NBA has an age restriction, then basketball players can play elsewhere (such as college or overseas). Now those secondary options may not be as viable, but they are still options nonetheless.They are not practical options. The NBA has used the NCAA and the labor laws to make it pretty much impossible for players to earn market-money until they are a year out of high school. That's why almost nobody today turns pro straight out of high school anymore (8 high school players were drafted in 2005, the last year it was permitted). Because of the (legal) trade restriction, they can't get paid market rates.

To continue with the analogy, Bill Gates could perhaps have moved overseas to start his company, but couldn't do it in the U.S. until he served his unpaid internship. It's hardly a free market and hardly the American Way.

[swood1000]

I said "all but inevitable," and yes. With that much money at stake (lots of NCAA football assistant coaches make $1mm and more per year, for example; Alabama's outside linebackers coach makes $950k!), and since players cannot be paid legally, it is inevitable that some will cheat to try to get better players. It's pretty much Econ 101.Is it inevitable that every sports team, amateur or professional, will be involved in point shaving, since point shaving is illegal but there is much additional money to be had there?

[sammy3469]

Agreed that Bowen won't play this season, but other than that, I agree with dudog84 that Arizona and Lville's seasons likely won't be impacted. The NCAA is very slow. And that's fine. I really like this Duke team. Bring it.

FWIW, the case against Richardson (Arizona) seems to include him "influencing" two current players in addition to the recruit, so they may be impacted for this year depending on how this plays out.

[RPS]

Is it inevitable that every sports team, amateur or professional, will be involved in point shaving, since point shaving is illegal but there is much additional money to be had there?We needn't go down that (substantially different) rabbit hole. We simply need to consider the evidence. Paying players, trying to pay players and other illicit benefits have been a part of college sports for as long are college sports have existed, even when the money involved was comparatively small. If you think this sort of cheating is not inevitable, you might begin your argument by explaining why, if it isn't, it happens pretty much all the time.

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

We needn't go down that (substantially different) rabbit hole. We simply need to consider the evidence. Paying players, trying to pay players and other illicit benefits have been a part of college sports for as long are college sports have existed, even when the money involved was comparatively small. If you think this sort of cheating is not inevitable, you might begin your argument by explaining why, if it isn't, it happens pretty much all the time.

Because all sorts of cheating happen at every level of competition when someone cares more about winning than about the rules.

Sorry, I refuse to embrace "everybody does it." Sounds like the refrain from down the road.

[JasonEvans]

I agree with others that the conversation here should be focused upon this current story and not the overall debate about OAD or other rules regarding the movement of players into the NBA. But, that said, I did feel the need to address this:


Strictly speaking, you are correct. But I know of no American player who succeeded in the NBA without first going to college other than those who, under a prior CBA, went to the NBA straight out of high school. In any event, it's not a promising path to avoid college.

Brandon Jennings, Emanuel Mudiay, and Thon Maker are all answers to your question.

Dante Exum could also be seen as someone who took this route as he was thinking about college, but decided to turn pro in Australia and then enter the draft.

-Jason "now, back to the discussion at hand" Evans

[proelitedota]

I think it's time to allow highschool stars to launch their own products and sign their own advertising deals. Let them make money for themselves and their family, instead of making money only for the schools / coaches, via this avenue. They'll be exempt from a scholarship once they're at college. The only reason current restrictions are in place is because NCAA has a brand image they want to preserve.

[JasonEvans]

1) This involves Adidas schools. When they start getting people to flip, are the Adidas guys gonna miss a chance to rat out the Nike/UnderArmor, etc. guys?

I'm not following every single development at the moment, but it seems this is not just affecting Adidas schools. Aren't Arizona (Nike) and Southern Cal (also Nike) up to their eyeballs in this mess?

[swood1000]

We needn't go down that (substantially different) rabbit hole. We simply need to consider the evidence. Paying players, trying to pay players and other illicit benefits have been a part of college sports for as long are college sports have existed, even when the money involved was comparatively small. If you think this sort of cheating is not inevitable, you might begin your argument by explaining why, if it isn't, it happens pretty much all the time.
Your argument seems to be that amateur sports are inevitably corrupt when there is money to be made televising them, so there should be no high-profile amateur sports. But I think I agree with Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15 that this discussion is for a different thread.

[BandAlum83]

I said "all but inevitable," and yes. With that much money at stake (lots of NCAA football assistant coaches make $1mm and more per year, for example; Alabama's outside linebackers coach makes $950k!), and since players cannot be paid legally, it is inevitable that some will cheat to try to get better players. It's pretty much Econ 101.

I think Macro was 101. This is more Micro Economics.

[RPS]

Because all sorts of cheating happen at every level of competition when someone cares more about winning than about the rules.Exactly. And market incentives play a big part in that calculus.


Sorry, I refuse to embrace "everybody does it." Sounds like the refrain from down the road.I agree. Some people do not cheat because of high character. Some do not cheat because, as they see it, "the game is not worth the candle." My point is, quite simply, that since the most important assets in the business of college sports cannot legally receive market compensation, the likelihood of cheating (someone/some school paying illicit compensation and/or benefits to obtain the use of those assets) is dramatically higher than it otherwise would be.

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

Exactly. And market incentives play a big part in that calculus.

I agree. Some people do not cheat because of high character. Some do not cheat because, as they see it, "the game is not worth the candle." My point is, quite simply, that since the most important assets in the business of college sports cannot legally receive market compensation, the likelihood of cheating (someone/some school paying illicit compensation and/or benefits to obtain the use of those assets) is dramatically higher than it otherwise would be.

So... Cheating is a "risk v. reward" calculation? Then yes, having underpaid/unpaid assets will increase the wonton reward.

I just disagree. I have been brought up that cheating isn't a calculation, but it is just flat wrong. It isn't about what you might win or gain, or how likely you are to get caught.

It is why my winning percentage in solitaire is pretty poor.

[Nick]

Scandal merchandise is already available (https://twitter.com/phillipmbailey/status/912719890028613632)! I like the "University-6" t-shirt.

[sammy3469]

I'm not following every single development at the moment, but it seems this is not just affecting Adidas schools. Aren't Arizona (Nike) and Southern Cal (also Nike) up to their eyeballs in this mess?

There are three different schemes.

One involved Gatto at Adidas paying kids to go to Adidas schools (that is Louisville and Miami). The second part is Sood/Dawkins paying assistants to funnel kids their way for financial and agent services (this is Zona, USC, South Carolina, OK St) and didn't involve the shoe companies which is why there are Nike and UA schools. The nexus of these two is Sood-Dawkins arranging and/or conducting payments.

The third is the Chuck Person (Auburn) one which is tangentially related (same cooperating witness) to those first two.

Having said that, Merl Code (ex-Clemson player for those that remember) who is also charged in the Gatto indictment for his activities at Adidas worked in some capacity for Nike (he identified himself as "elite youth director")

[DukieInKansas]

If anyone is not viewing this story through the lens of why the conditions for black market payments to the players exist, they're doing an incredible disservice to themselves.

Even if the athletes were being paid, there would be someone wanting to pay extra to get a recruit to come to a particular university. This would, most likely, still happen. There will always be greedy people. (Wish there weren't but don't think they will disappear anytime soon.)

[DukieInKansas]

To me, the issue is the NBA not letting players go pro straight out of high school, moreso than the issue of paying them. If they could do that then these top players would have no part of the college system and agents would have no need to bribe coaches. But as others have said, even if colleges could pay players you'd still have agents and boosters trying to steer them to certain schools.

Would this just move the money down to high school/aau levels?

[RPS]

Brandon Jennings, Emanuel Mudiay, and Thon Maker are all answers to your question.

Dante Exum could also be seen as someone who took this route as he was thinking about college, but decided to turn pro in Australia and then enter the draft.I had forgotten about Jennings (the only native American among your answers). He's the exception that proves the rule. Since eight HS players were drafted in 2005 (the last draft with HS eligibility), and since only one native American HS player has skipped college in the 12 years since, I think my point is made.

[swood1000]

Per Wikipedia, Louisville has a "Total enrollment: 22,640 (2016)" and the Lamont Evans complaint says a public university in KY with ~22,640 students. So...seems like Louisville.

- Chillin

Also, "University-6" was described as fielding "approximately 21 varsity sports teams in NCAA Division I competition" and that's the number listed on the Louisville Wikipedia page (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Louisville_Cardinals). U.K. has 19, Western Kentucky has 17, and NKU has 17, and that's about it for large Kentucky public universities (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_colleges_and_universities_in_Kentucky).

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

I had forgotten about Jennings (the only native American among your answers). He's the exception that proves the rule. Since eight HS players were drafted in 2005 (the last draft with HS eligibility), and since only one native American HS player has skipped college in the 12 years since, I think my point is made.

... Your point about agents paying players families to push to certain schools?

This is why I feel we have four different discussions happening here and it does a disservice to each of them.

[RPS]

So... Cheating is a "risk v. reward" calculation?For some, it is.


Then yes, having underpaid/unpaid assets will increase the wonton reward.Which is precisely my point.


I just disagree. I have been brought up that cheating isn't a calculation, but it is just flat wrong. It isn't about what you might win or gain, or how likely you are to get caught.

It is why my winning percentage in solitaire is pretty poor.I would prefer that the decision about whether one should cheat were never a calculation. I simply recognize that it is for some. How many I do not know.

[OldPhiKap]

I feel we have four different discussions happening here

Agreed. And it's difficult to separate the new story -- the indictments -- from the horse we've beaten for years.

Not that money and sports is not an important topic. But I'm trying to learn about the new story, which is supposedly the topic.

(And yes, I understand that me complaining about derailed threads is hypocritical. So be it).

[atoomer0881]

They are not practical options. The NBA has used the NCAA and the labor laws to make it pretty much impossible for players to earn market-money until they are a year out of high school. That's why almost nobody today turns pro straight out of high school anymore (8 high school players were drafted in 2005, the last year it was permitted). Because of the (legal) trade restriction, they can't get paid market rates.

To continue with the analogy, Bill Gates could perhaps have moved overseas to start his company, but couldn't do it in the U.S. until he served his unpaid internship. It's hardly a free market and hardly the American Way.

I don't disagree with you that those other options aren't practical. I was just saying other options did in fact exist. And that while we agree those other options aren't viable, and that players aren't able to earn market-money until a year out of high school, I still wouldn't analogize college athletes with those other people you listed (i.e. entrepreneurs and solo stars who went out on their own). I just don't think it's a fair comparison.

[RPS]

... Your point about agents paying players families to push to certain schools?No, my point about the practicality of the overseas option.


This is why I feel we have four different discussions happening here and it does a disservice to each of them.I'm not troubled by the discussion ranging across various aspects of the issue in one thread, but I am more than willing to go along with the judgment of others as to what is best.

[RPS]

I don't disagree with you that those other options aren't practical. I was just saying other options did in fact exist. And that while we agree those other options aren't viable, and that players aren't able to earn market-money until a year out of high school, I still wouldn't analogize college athletes with those other people you listed (i.e. entrepreneurs and solo stars who went out on their own). I just don't think it's a fair comparison.It might be a difficult comparison (since the NCAA has market power, your comparison isn't nearly exact either). Readers can decide for themselves how fair it is. The bottom line is that, under the current regime, revenue sport athletes (basketball and football) cannot earn market-pay until a year (hoops) or three (gridiron) out of high school, Everyone else, including non-revenue sport athletes, entrepreneurs, coders, and artists, can. I don't think it's hard to make the appropriate connections.

[RPS]

I think Macro was 101. This is more Micro Economics.Point taken.

[BD80]

Not to take your joy away, but it probably won't happen that fast. Arizona in particular, if they feel they have a chance at a national championship this year, will pull a uNC. Delay, delay, delay.

This is a good reason for the NCAA to clobber unc, and quickly. Going for the harsh extreme on the scale of punishment with the simple explanation: "we feel that unc failed to cooperate in the investigation and sought to delay the proceedings at every opportunity."

That might spur some cooperation from the schools in this next investigation.

[BLPOG]

I think Macro was 101. This is more Micro Economics.

I think Macro was 110. Micro was 105.

But they do change from time to time.

[aimo]

From the N&O, quote from Bowen's mother:

Carrie Malecke, Bowen’s mother, told the Courier-Journal on Tuesday that she was not aware of a bribe scheme.

“I don’t know anything about that,” Malecke, told the Courier-Journal. “I don’t know anything about that. I’m not aware of anything like that. Not me. I had no idea.”

Methinks she doth protest too much?

[atoomer0881]

It might be a difficult comparison (since the NCAA has market power, your comparison isn't nearly exact either). Readers can decide for themselves how fair it is. The bottom line is that, under the current regime, revenue sport athletes (basketball and football) cannot earn market-pay until a year (hoops) or three (gridiron) out of high school, Everyone else, including non-revenue sport athletes, entrepreneurs, coders, and artists, can. I don't think it's hard to make the appropriate connections.

I still think it's a stretch to compare revenue sports athletes and with entrepreneurs, coders, artists, etc. Revenue sports athletes (basketball and football) can still earn money whenever they want in those sports. There's just one league where they aren't able to play (NBA and NFL) due to age restrictions. Yes it happens to be the premiere leagues for each respective sport, but if a HS football player wants to play football right out of HS, he can play in the CFL or arena football. If a HS basketball player wants to play basketball right out of HS, he can go overseas. Again, I agree they won't get paid the same, but they will get paid. So no one is telling an 18 year old football player that he has to go to college.

I think you have a better argument comparing football/basketball athletes with athletes in other sports. Like if a tennis player is exceptional at 16, I assume they can turn pro and compete in the grand slams (though I admit I don't know much of tennis so if tennis experts know more, please correct me). I do believe the PGA Tour has a min age of 18 though.

So my question then to you is, should there be no age minimum at all? If a 14 year old is extremely gifted and an incredible basketball player, should he be allowed to enter the NBA?

[BD80]

I think Macro was 110. Micro was 105.

But they do change from time to time.

When I was in school, they were CX and CV.

[swood1000]

Here’s what is said about University-5:

Based on my review of publicly available information, I have learned that University-5 is a private research university located in California. with over approximately 40,000 students, it is one of California's largest universities. University-5 fields approximately 21 varsity sports teams in NCAA Division I competition, including men's basketball.

USC is the only Division I private university in California with anywhere near 40,000 students (42,469 according to Wikipedia), and they also have 21 varsity teams.

[RPS]

I still think it's a stretch to compare revenue sports athletes and with entrepreneurs, coders, artists, etc. Revenue sports athletes (basketball and football) can still earn money whenever they want in those sports. There's just one league where they aren't able to play (NBA and NFL) due to age restrictions. Yes it happens to be the premiere leagues for each respective sport, but if a HS football player wants to play football right out of HS, he can play in the CFL or arena football. If a HS basketball player wants to play basketball right out of HS, he can go overseas. Again, I agree they won't get paid the same, but they will get paid. So no one is telling an 18 year old football player that he has to go to college.Given that the NCAA has market (monopoly) power (http://www.economicsonline.co.uk/Market_failures/Monopoly_power.html), and given that only one or two native American NBA players have gone the overseas route since 2005, it may as well be considered a non-existent option. That said...


I think you have a better argument comparing football/basketball athletes with athletes in other sports. Like if a tennis player is exceptional at 16, I assume they can turn pro and compete in the grand slams (though I admit I don't know much of tennis so if tennis experts know more, please correct me). I do believe the PGA Tour has a min age of 18 though.

So my question then to you is, should there be no age minimum at all? If a 14 year old is extremely gifted and an incredible basketball player, should he be allowed to enter the NBA?As I understand it, professional sports can decide to preclude minors from participating and there may be good reasons for them to do so. Tennis has had (uh-hem) minor major champions (Boris Becker, for example), but I would have no quarrel with a professional sport limiting the participation of minors if it was done fairly and equitably.

[75Crazie]

To me, the issue is the NBA not letting players go pro straight out of high school ...
But, see, this is the fallacy of the whole system. How many high school players are NBA-ready? A very small percentage, in my book, because that is a huge, huge leap. In most other sports (football being the other notable objection), there are developmental opportunities to allow a raw high school athlete to continue to develop to a point where he/she can be considered to be ready for the highest level. And while college is one of those developmental opportunities, in most cases it is not the only one, because not all athletes are equipped for college or should even be let into college. Basketball and football are the two sports where it is just about mandatory for an athlete to participate in college ... and that opens the door for abuse in order to get and keep those athletes that are not qualified to attend classes on their own merits.

[Indoor66]

I'm not sanguine at all about this development & not gonna look askance at some of our rivals who are having issues.

1) This involves Adidas schools. When they start getting people to flip, are the Adidas guys gonna miss a chance to rat out the Nike/UnderArmor, etc. guys?

2) This indictment renders much of what the NCAA can & will do toothless. According to the press conference, the NCAA found out about this today. That very impotence will be a cudgel that many schools under investigation, like our friends down the road, will use this event to stall even further.

3) Simply, I think this creates an existential crisis for NCAA basketball that is just beginning...and it unclear whose gonna be taken down in the undertow.

The NCAA does not have either the resources or expertise to do this type of investigation. Nor should they.

[swood1000]

Calling swood (or others):

What's the NCAA's role here? It's a criminal indictment, so obviously subject to governmental involvement. Would the NCAA sit on the sidelines until it all shakes out then act, if at all?

I don’t know of any NCAA policy. One problem would be that people who have been or may be indicted are not likely to be willing to spill their guts to the NCAA enforcement staff, making their investigation more difficult (but at least they can get them on refusal to cooperate). On the other hand, the prosecutors have subpoena power (which the NCAA doesn’t have), so I assume that the NCAA would wait to see what evidence gets turned up, but not years if the criminal proceeding gets drawn out.

[Henderson]

The NCAA does not have either the resources or expertise to do this type of investigation. Nor should they.

I agree. It's no black eye to the NCAA just because the Feds uncovered a pattern of criminality (that's their job) that the NCAA didn't know about until today. They don't have the thousands of LE agents and investigators that the FBI can muster.

But we're still early in this story. What if it comes to light that people went to the NCAA first and got no action, then went to the feds? And apparently the FBI didn't trust the NCAA sufficiently to loop the NCAA in. I assume the FBI feared leaks and complicit individuals that would hamper the investigation. That may be SOP for the FBI, or it may say something interesting about the FBI's perception (right or wrong) about people at the NCAA.

[Dr. Rosenrosen]

From the N&O, quote from Bowen's mother:

Carrie Malecke, Bowen’s mother, told the Courier-Journal on Tuesday that she was not aware of a bribe scheme.

“I don’t know anything about that,” Malecke, told the Courier-Journal. “I don’t know anything about that. I’m not aware of anything like that. Not me. I had no idea.”

Methinks she doth protest too much?
Notice she's not denying it happened - just that she didn't know. Uh-huh.

[Tom B.]

Having said that, Merl Code (ex-Clemson player for those that remember) who is also charged in the Gatto indictment for his activities at Adidas worked in some capacity for Nike (he identified himself as "elite youth director")

Yep, I remember Merl Code. He played on those mid-1990s Rick Barnes teams that used to just pound the crap out of opponents. One of my favorite individual games by a Duke player occurred in 1997, when Trajan Langdon dropped 34 on Barnes and his goons en route to an 84-77 Duke win in Cameron.

http://goduke.statsgeek.com/basketball-m/games/boxscore.php?gameid=19970218

[Owen Meany]

I wouldn't be comfortable if I was anyone in college Athletics at this moment. An athlete could easily take money under the table without the school knowing.
It is interesting that Marty Blazer has been named the cooperating witness in this case. A quick Google search shows his name came up in the previous NC case against agents that involved a UNC player.

[swood1000]

From the N&O, quote from Bowen's mother:

Carrie Malecke, Bowen’s mother, told the Courier-Journal on Tuesday that she was not aware of a bribe scheme.

“I don’t know anything about that,” Malecke, told the Courier-Journal. “I don’t know anything about that. I’m not aware of anything like that. Not me. I had no idea.”

Methinks she doth protest too much?
The payment was apparently made to Bowen's father, alias "father-2," who nobody has been able to reach. If the mother has a different last name maybe she has remarried and was out of the loop.

[TexHawk]

Interesting thing to watch is what happens with Kansas (don't think they've been named) as an Adidas school. It looks as if Andrew Wiggins is an Adidas athlete with a signature shoe and Joel Embid is also signed with them. I could be grasping at straws with this connection but it's interesting.

As far as KU goes, with the info released today, apparently the investigation/sting operation started in 2015. Both Wiggins and Embiid signed their deals with Adidas in 2014. And Wiggins was known to be an Adidas guy going all the way back to 2012 (at least). The only KU player to have signed a deal with Adidas in 2015 or after is Cheick Diallo.

(None of that absolves KU in this thing, just wanted to clarify the timeline with the two players mentioned.)

[MCFinARL]

I think I found an answer to my question in the Reddit thread:

Yes--and I think the complaint says specifically that the universities have been defrauded because they are providing scholarship funds they would not otherwise have provided to players who are ineligible--i.e., it's not so much that the players didn't need the scholarships because they were getting paid already but that they were getting scholarships to play college basketball--for which they were ineligible because they were getting paid already.

[RPS]

I agree. It's no black eye to the NCAA just because the Feds uncovered a pattern of criminality (that's their job) that the NCAA didn't know about until today. They don't have the thousands of LE agents and investigators that the FBI can muster.

But we're still early in this story. What if it comes to light that people went to the NCAA first and got no action, then went to the feds? And apparently the FBI didn't trust the NCAA sufficiently to loop the NCAA in. I assume the FBI feared leaks and complicit individuals that would hamper the investigation. That may be SOP for the FBI, or it may say something interesting about the FBI's perception (right or wrong) about people at the NCAA.If the NCAA really cared about uncovering misconduct, it could do a much better job than it does. It has an enormous pile of money if it wanted to spend it on enforcement. I'm no fan of Jerry Tarkanian, but he was spot on when he said, "The NCAA was so mad at Kentucky they gave Cleveland State two more years of probation."

[Henderson]

The Portland Oregonian's Jeff Manning's story this morning is headlined, "Two Adidas Officials Charged in Basketball Corruption Case". The story leads this way:

Two sports marketing officials at Adidas, including its head of global sports marketing, were among those charged Tuesday morning in a sweeping bribery and corruption case that struck at the heart of college and youth basketball.

Nike, of course, is headquartered in a suburb of Portland, and Phil Knight is a big U of O booster.

[BeachBlueDevil]

As far as KU goes, with the info released today, apparently the investigation/sting operation started in 2015. Both Wiggins and Embiid signed their deals with Adidas in 2014. And Wiggins was known to be an Adidas guy going all the way back to 2012 (at least). The only KU player to have signed a deal with Adidas in 2015 or after is Cheick Diallo.

(None of that absolves KU in this thing, just wanted to clarify the timeline with the two players mentioned.)

Makes sense. I'd still be a little nervous if I was any Adidas school. Especially ones who had big recruits come through the program.

[devildeac]

I agree. It's no black eye to the NCAA just because the Feds uncovered a pattern of criminality (that's their job) that the NCAA didn't know about until today. They don't have the thousands of LE agents and investigators that the FBI can muster.

But we're still early in this story. What if it comes to light that people went to the NCAA first and got no action, then went to the feds? And apparently the FBI didn't trust the NCAA sufficiently to loop the NCAA in. I assume the FBI feared leaks and complicit individuals that would hamper the investigation. That may be SOP for the FBI, or it may say something interesting about the FBI's perception (right or wrong) about people at the NCAA.

Dean knew...

[TKG]

Thoughts from the Washington Post:


https://www.washingtonpost.com/amphtml/news/sports/wp/2017/09/26/after-another-ncaa-basketball-scandal-lets-be-honest-this-is-how-college-sports-work/

[rsvman]

It saddens me when people post things like "cheating is inevitable," mostly because I fear they may be right. As a physician with 30 years' experience I can tell you unequivocally that any intervention that relies on changing behavior is doomed to fail, regardless of how important that change may be. A few people will succeed, of course, but globally it can do nothing but fail.

I side with the people who believe that paying college athletes might actually cause more problems than it solves. Not to mention that it's a rabbit hole and nobody knows where it goes. And anybody who thinks that paying the players would prevent this kind of thing from happening is delusional. We can't possibly pay all the guys 100K! There will always be people with bigger pockets.

Human nature naturally leads to corruption.


All I can do now is hope that Duke is not involved in these shenanigans. I really, really do NOT want to lose the high ground we now enjoy versus our <ahem> "neighbors" down the road.

[howardlander]

Scandal merchandise is already available (https://twitter.com/phillipmbailey/status/912719890028613632)! I like the "University-6" t-shirt.

I particularly like the dead cardinal.

-Howard

[RPS]

It saddens me when people post things like "cheating is inevitable," mostly because I fear they may be right.Yup.


As a physician with 30 years' experience I can tell you unequivocally that any intervention that relies on changing behavior is doomed to fail, regardless of how important that change may be. A few people will succeed, of course, but globally it can do nothing but fail.I deal with behavioral finance every day. Your conclusion squares with mine.


I side with the people who believe that paying college athletes might actually cause more problems than it solves. Not to mention that it's a rabbit hole and nobody knows where it goes. And anybody who thinks that paying the players would prevent this kind of thing from happening is delusional. We can't possibly pay all the guys 100K! There will always be people with bigger pockets.I want players to be paid because it's the right thing to do. But I don't think it will be any sort of panacea. Indeed, I don't think we can square big-time college sports -- as much as I love them -- with the mission of a university.


Human nature naturally leads to corruption.Yes, absolutely.


All I can do now is hope that Duke is not involved in these shenanigans. I really, really do NOT want to lose the high ground we now enjoy versus our <ahem> "neighbors" down the road.Oh yes.

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

Thoughts from the Washington Post:


https://www.washingtonpost.com/amphtml/news/sports/wp/2017/09/26/after-another-ncaa-basketball-scandal-lets-be-honest-this-is-how-college-sports-work/

I was about to say, this echoes RPS's sentiments, however I might dislike them.

[swood1000]

If the NCAA really cared about uncovering misconduct, it could do a much better job than it does. It has an enormous pile of money if it wanted to spend it on enforcement.

But this case required wiretaps and hidden video recorders, which are outside the scope of the NCAA, not to mention teams experienced in fraud and corruption investigations and financial analysis. The NCAA just doesn't look like the right tool for the job.

[blazindw]

This could be getting worse for Louisville:

https://twitter.com/jasonrileywdrb/status/912781617361559552

[RPS]

But this case required wiretaps and hidden video recorders, which are outside the scope of the NCAA, not to mention teams experienced in fraud and corruption investigations and financial analysis. The NCAA just doesn't look like the right tool for the job.I get that. I merely wanted to note that we should be skeptical of general hand-wringing claiming that the NCAA is powerless to maintain control. The NCAA could do much, much better than it does re enforcement if it wanted to. This case, however, may not be a good example for that.

[swood1000]

This could be getting worse for Louisville:

https://twitter.com/jasonrileywdrb/status/912781617361559552
And/or for a certain unnamed Louisville head basketball coach.

[Henderson]

The defense argument that "the problem is really systemic and in fairness we need to take a broader view" is weak. It's been tried before, and it never works. It goes like this:

"Can we really judge these individuals without indicting all of college athletics? And if college athletics are to blame, isn't that an indictment of all U.S. higher education? Well, you can say what you want about these guys, but I'm not going to sit here and listen to people badmouth the United States of America!!"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ROxvT8KKdFw

[Ian]

As I've said before on this board, I'd be for removing the "amateur" requirement for NCAA athletes and allow third parties to pay them.

My main reasoning was
1) Many people believe they deserve to be paid anyway (above and beyond their tuition)

and

2) It's probably already happening anyway and allowing it would just make it cleaner, no more shadowy middle-men, and no more mouse and cat games with the NCAA. Transparency for everyone.

Clearly I understated the case with "probably already happening".

[Dr. Rosenrosen]

This could be getting worse for Louisville:

https://twitter.com/jasonrileywdrb/status/912781617361559552
Gotta say, some of the replies to that tweet are pretty damn funny.

[BigWayne]

This could be getting worse for Louisville:

https://twitter.com/jasonrileywdrb/status/912781617361559552

Best one in that thread:


Tyson‏ @BenTps 1h1 hour ago
Replying to @JasonRileyWDRB @WDRBNews

Hindsight the hooker thing wasn't so bad...huh

[RPS]

The defense argument that "the problem is really systemic and in fairness we need to take a broader view" is weak. It's been tried before, and it never works.To be clear, I think there is a huge systemic problem, but I do not think it remotely justifies cheating.

[Indoor66]

I agree. It's no black eye to the NCAA just because the Feds uncovered a pattern of criminality (that's their job) that the NCAA didn't know about until today. They don't have the thousands of LE agents and investigators that the FBI can muster.

But we're still early in this story. What if it comes to light that people went to the NCAA first and got no action, then went to the feds? And apparently the FBI didn't trust the NCAA sufficiently to loop the NCAA in. I assume the FBI feared leaks and complicit individuals that would hamper the investigation. That may be SOP for the FBI, or it may say something interesting about the FBI's perception (right or wrong) about people at the NCAA.

We can deal with an NCAA failure when there is evidence of a failure. Until then, such talk is ONLY wild speculation and inappropriate for this forum.

As to "looping the NCAA in", that does not happen in FBI investigations, in my experience. They hold these things very close to the vest.

[sagegrouse]

It saddens me when people post things like "cheating is inevitable," mostly because I fear they may be right. As a physician with 30 years' experience I can tell you unequivocally that any intervention that relies on changing behavior is doomed to fail, regardless of how important that change may be. A few people will succeed, of course, but globally it can do nothing but fail.

I side with the people who believe that paying college athletes might actually cause more problems than it solves. Not to mention that it's a rabbit hole and nobody knows where it goes. And anybody who thinks that paying the players would prevent this kind of thing from happening is delusional. We can't possibly pay all the guys 100K! There will always be people with bigger pockets.

Human nature naturally leads to corruption.


All I can do now is hope that Duke is not involved in these shenanigans. I really, really do NOT want to lose the high ground we now enjoy versus our <ahem> "neighbors" down the road.

(IMHO, where the H ran away with the spoon a long time ago), there is no easy way to make fundamental changes to the college sports system.

In America, the feeder system for major sports is led by the colleges and not by minor league teams, except in baseball, or athletic clubs (hockey is really different with the junior leagues). The coin of the realm is an athletic scholarship, including other support, but not a "market wage" for the most valuable performers. This is the way it is. Every professional league I am aware of has a salary or payroll caps. In fact, there is no real "free market" where teams are competitors, not partners. Allowing athletes, or, at least, some of them, to be paid more is in danger of throwing the entire system in the rubbish bin. I think the current system is likely to remain in place, and that is good -- given the risks of starting over under a different model.

For most college athletes, the offer of a scholarship is generous -- provided the student is willing to make the tough trade-offs demanded by college coaches. For the leading players in football and hoops, there is bound to be lots of competition for an athlete's services. Managing that competition is the job of the NCAA and the conferences (and the school). It is an increasingly tough job, and there are bound to be strains.

Another set of issues involves labor agreements. There are collective bargaining agreements governing, basketball, football and baseball that set out the eligibility for players to participate and even govern the draft processes. Courts have been inclined to honor these agreements. In any case, the NCAA has no say whatsoever, accept an appeal to common decency and for the leagues to respect its position as a partner.

It's not a pretty picture, except that it seems to work most of the time.

[dudog84]

As much as it pains me to defend the NCAA (I even feel a little dirty writing this), they are out of their depth here (no subpoena/no warrant/little investigating power...self-reporting and self-imposed sanctions, anyone?). And it's a bit not of their own making, although they have certainly taken advantage (massive TV contracts) of the following: The NFL and NBA have chosen to use universities as a free developmental league. The NCAA and its members have gleefully gone along, but are small potatoes to the pro leagues.

It's the NFL and NBA that puts the age limit on their employees, which is certainly their right. That's why the comparison to others (coders was an example) rings a bit false unless it's other sports athletes or entrepreneurs. My early employers actually insisted that I get a Masters Degree. Yeah, I could have found other work with just the B.S. (mud logger probably) but I would have been a dead-ender. Companies all get to decide what are their qualifications for employment.

The NCAA is trying to police a difficult system. The Universities' good names (?) are being dragged through the mud, but very few of them are jumping off the gravy train. Schools are always trying to move up in division, I've seen it multiple times locally. Very few have decided to de-emphasize sports and move down. Just this weekend I found out that the Massachusetts Maritime Academy at Buzzards Bay has a football team. Who'd a thunk it?

There will be much hand-wringing about this from the powers-that-be, but that will be the extent of it. Too much money involved for it to change.

[Pghdukie]

An undercover mission is only successfull when less people (NCAA) know about it. I surely would like to know who the hierarchy in the FBI that 1) was introduced to the alleged early facts, and 2) Who authorized the govt spending to follow thru with this and come up with solid, hard evidence. Ricky P cost me alot of money when I owned Boston Celtics stock.

[RPS]

(IMHO, where the H ran away with the spoon a long time ago), there is no easy way to make fundamental changes to the college sports system.Indeed.


In America, sports are led by colleges and not by minor league teams, except in baseball, or athletic clubs. The coin of the realm is an athletic scholarship, including other support, but not a "market wage" for the most valuable performers. This is the way it is. Every professional league I am aware of has salary or payroll caps. In fact, there is no real "free market" where teams are competitors, not partners. Allowing athletes, or, at least, some of them, to be paid more is in danger of throwing the entire system in the rubbish bin. I think the current system is likely to remain in place, and that is good -- given the risks of starting over under a different model.Every head of a sports team or league has routinely cried poverty when asked to pay a market wage. Less loudly, they also suggest that team leaders need to be protected from themselves. Unfortunately for those leadership persons and entities, their assertions have rarely been supported by actual facts (oh reserve clause of blessed memory). And we shouldn't expect them often to be true because free markets generally work pretty well while restrained markets rarely do. Note, too, that where the professional sports marketplace is less than free, that freedom has been relinquished by players willingly in exchange for other benefits. College athletes -- being younger, poorer and generally more vulnerable -- are excepted from such a right of self-determination and have no say in this area.


For most college athletes, the offer of a scholarship is generous -- provided the student is willing to make the tough trade-offs demanded by college coaches. For the leading players in football and hoops, there is bound to be lots of competition for an athlete's services. Managing that competition is the job of the NCAA and the conferences (and the school). It is an increasingly tough job, and there are bound to be strains.Since the college marketplace has been anything but free, we cannot possibly know how generous these scholarship offers are. But what we do know -- million dollar salaries for bowl game chairmen and assistant coaches, for example -- suggests that more than just an elite few athletes are getting hosed.


It's not a pretty picture, except that it seems to work most of the time.That's easy for us to say. After all, we're getting what we want.

[sammy3469]

FWIW, for those wondering if there is more to come, a bunch of college basketball guys on Twitter are saying the FBI raided ASM offices and took their CEO's (Andy Miller) computer. ASM is where Dawkins worked before using $42K to from athletes to pay his Uber bill.

[BigWayne]

Spent some time reading the indictments. There's some pretty detailed stuff in there that points to big troubles for a lot of people. Found this in the Gatto indictment that covers the Louisville/Bowen mess. Shows that Adidas is likely not the only company involved in bribery. Wonder how far this will reach.

7664

[Indoor66]

FWIW, for those wondering if there is more to come, a bunch of college basketball guys on Twitter are saying the FBI raided ASM offices and took their CEO's (Andy Miller) computer. ASM is where Dawkins worked before using $42K to from athletes to pay his Uber bill.

What is ASM?

[dudog84]

Spent some time reading the indictments. There's some pretty detailed stuff in there that points to big troubles for a lot of people. Found this in the Gatto indictment that covers the Louisville/Bowen mess. Shows that Adidas is likely not the only company involved in bribery. Wonder how far this will reach.

7664

Could also be a negotiating ploy...nah, you're right.

[sammy3469]

What is ASM?

Big NBA agency. They rep Porzingis, Myles Turner, Ibaka, Lowry among others and have been doing it for awhile:

http://www.asmsports.com

[TKG]

Big NBA agency. They rep Porzingis, Myles Turner, Ibaka, Lowry among others and have been doing it for awhile:

http://www.asmsports.com

Any of our guys?

[LasVegas]

Any of our guys?

Following the link, Rivers is listed on their page but that’s it as far as duke guys go. Unless I missed someone.

[devildeac]

Spent some time reading the indictments. There's some pretty detailed stuff in there that points to big troubles for a lot of people. Found this in the Gatto indictment that covers the Louisville/Bowen mess. Shows that Adidas is likely not the only company involved in bribery. Wonder how far this will reach.

7664

Who might that involve? Miami and Kentucky and Quickley? (WAG here from me.)

[mgtr]

OK, I love college athletics, particularly MBB. However, in light of the current scandal, I wonder how many years it will continue. I am guessing 3-5 years max. So it looks as though Coach K will retire at about the right time!

[Neals384]

I assumed USC is Southern Call, not South Carolina.

I keep trying to teach you guys that....

[proelitedota]

OK, I love college athletics, particularly MBB. However, in light of the current scandal, I wonder how many years it will continue. I am guessing 3-5 years max. So it looks as though Coach K will retire at about the right time!

Hopefully with 3-5 more titles.

NCAA MBB will continue because there is nothing that suggest the NCAA are to be implicated in the transgressions, yet.

[SoCalDukeFan]

This could be getting worse for Louisville:

https://twitter.com/jasonrileywdrb/status/912781617361559552

It means Pitano will be fired.

Pitano of course denies knowing anything. Once again, he is a victim.

SoCal

[Neals384]

Yes. They earn all the money and make none. But you can't do illegal things with the rationale "but it SHOULD be legal." That isn't how the law works.

hate to go all political on you, but at least half of the country disagrees. Supply your own example.

[mgtr]

Hopefully with 3-5 more titles.

NCAA MBB will continue because there is nothing that suggest the NCAA are to be implicated in the transgressions, yet.


But we are hearing the death knell of amateur athletics in money sports. No problem in field hockey or table tennis, but in FB and BB there is just too much money for the situation to remain as it is.

Solution: Let the free market reign, let any person, even a freshman in Hs, try out and maybe get a contract with the NBA or NFL. Those who do not can enter a college sport, but must stay for at least one year. I don't love it, but I see no practical alternative.

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

hate to go all political on you, but at least half of the country disagrees. Supply your own example.

I am not touching that PBB bait with a ten foot pole, but thanks for playing.

[ipatent]

It means Pitano will be fired.

Pitano of course denies knowing anything. Once again, he is a victim.

SoCal

C'mon Pitino isn't an under the table type guy.v:)

[OldPhiKap]

If Pitino goes, he'll go quickly. Or so I'm told.

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

If Pitino goes, he'll go quickly. Or so I'm told.

Safe to say, his fifteen seconds - er, minutes, are up.

[Nick]

Seth Davis on Twitter (https://twitter.com/SethDavisHoops/status/912815502740791298): "It is very telling that Pitino released his statement through his personal lawyer, not the university. They are not working together on this." I would agree... Meanwhile, Pitino's lawyer says (https://insiderlouisville.com/metro/pitinos-lawyer-says-there-would-be-no-reason-for-coach-to-consider-resigning/) there's no reason for him to consider resigning. I guess he wants a nice buyout?

That guy's gotta be gone by tomorrow morning, right?

[Dr. Rosenrosen]

Seth Davis on Twitter (https://twitter.com/SethDavisHoops/status/912815502740791298): "It is very telling that Pitino released his statement through his personal lawyer, not the university. They are not working together on this." I would agree... Meanwhile, Pitino's lawyer says (https://insiderlouisville.com/metro/pitinos-lawyer-says-there-would-be-no-reason-for-coach-to-consider-resigning/) there's no reason for him to consider resigning. I guess he wants a nice buyout?

That guy's gotta be gone by tomorrow morning, right?
He might already be gone. Just waiting til the morning to announce it.

I'd call him a scumbag but that's not fair to scumbags.

[Newton_14]

Tom Winter‏Verified account @Tom_Winter

BREAKING NEWS / NBC: The FBI has arrested several NCAA asst. basketball coaches in a corruption scheme. Presser @ 12n with U.S. Attorney

Here's the press release (https://www.justice.gov/usao-sdny/pr/press-conference-advisory-2) from the US Attorney's Office SDNY:
There will be a press conference today at noon to announce charges of fraud and corruption in college basketball. Federal criminal charges have been brought against ten people, including four college basketball coaches, as well as managers, financial advisors, and representatives of a major international sportswear company. The press conference will be livestreamed on Facebook @USAOSDNY.

Folks, I updated the thread title to give it more clarity. This is a huge scandal for NCAA Sports with the potential to be one of those "tip of the iceberg" type deals. If I'm a fan of an Adidas School I'm shaking in my boots. There is no way no how Pitino survives this one in my opinion. I'm certainly not shocked to hear the news other than it being a FBI Investigation which makes a NCAA Investigation pale in comparison. This is a very serious matter and those involved are in very serious trouble. Many are going to go to prison in my humble opinion. One early question is how far reaching is this? How many schools will this hit before all is said and done.

I also found it interesting how long it took today for mainstream sports sites to pick the story up and post it on their main page... Seemed awful slow especially in our current age of instant news...

[killerleft]

I completely agree.

Yes, it is arguably irrelevant (strictly speaking). But it goes a long way toward describing why the bribery is all but inevitable. There isn't much that's complicated about the cheating aspect. If the accuseds did what they are charged with doing, they (and ultimately their schools) will be in big trouble. But in terms of overall impact on college sports, the why and its inevitability are the significant and interesting questions to me.

The bribery is inevitable because there are those among us who are open to it. They can rationalize the bribery because they have such luminaries as Jay Bilas to 'justify' the illegal acts they commit. A bit of integrity would be nice, but the poor dears have been so 'used' as to not be able to wait even until they graduate from high school before getting their piece of the big 'ol pie that they so justly deserve.

Please, you, you... enabler!:) I kid!

Now, if you want to take the side of the players who will not be plying their trade in the NBA after college, then I might be amenable to thinking there can be a stipend of some amount - once that can be figured out. The players who make it big after their horribly amateur year can give their stipend back. After all, it'll just be bread crumbs, anyway.

[FerryFor50]

It means Pitano will be fired.

Pitano of course denies knowing anything. Once again, he is a victim.

SoCal

I'll never understand how the head of the program can claim to not know about stuff like this and skate. It's literally their job to know what's going on and is their responsibility if they don't. (Hi, Roy Williams)

Pitino should have been fired a while back.

[JasonEvans]

Well, Pat Forde, one of the most prominent college hoops journalists around, has "gone there (https://sports.yahoo.com/ncaa-needs-give-louisville-basketball-death-sentence-bombshell-allegations-prove-correct-181930063.html)" regarding Louisville. He says the program should get the Death Penalty and be shut down completely for a couple years.


Pitino was shocked by the last scandal, too. Playing the shocked head coach undermined by the rogue assistant isn’t going to fly a second time, like it did with Andre McGee and the strippers. That worked once – and many people were surprised it worked then. Now? The accountability needs to go to the top.

Pitino and Jurich both need to go. And the basketballs need to be put away for a year or more.

Shut the thing down.

Jason "can the ACC kick Louisville out of the conference " Evans

[BigWayne]

Wonder what will happen to Bowen now. Headed for the G League in Grand Rapids?

[Wander]

I'd still be a little nervous if I was any Adidas school.

I'd be nervous as a fan of any Division 1 college basketball or college football team, period.

[OldPhiKap]

I'd be nervous as a fan of any Division 1 college basketball or college football team, period.

This.

[Saratoga2]

I'd be nervous as a fan of any Division 1 college basketball or college football team, period.

While the FBI will expose 10 or so teams that are so willing to cheat, we should remember that the bulk of the teams are playing by the rules. Penalize those who commit criminal acts or who otherwise are unwilling to follow the rules, while celebrating those who do adhere to the fundamentals of student athletics.

[luburch]

I've seen several prominent Louisville reporters claim there will be a big announcement this morning...

[cspan37421]

While the FBI will expose 10 or so teams that are so willing to cheat, we should remember that the bulk of the teams are playing by the rules. Penalize those who commit criminal acts or who otherwise are unwilling to follow the rules, while celebrating those who do adhere to the fundamentals of student athletics.

We don't know that.
Legally, we presume it, until proven otherwise.
Personally, we may all form our own opinions about how many un-indicted teams/coaches/players cheat the system.

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

We don't know that.
Legally, we presume it, until proven otherwise.
Personally, we may all form our own opinions about how many un-indicted teams/coaches/players cheat the system.

I think we will learn a lot by the level of reaction from other programs in the next 72 hours. If other schools react with shock/anger, it's probably safe to assume that most schools are at least attempting to follow the rules. Of other coaches/ADs/programs are silent, well, that says quite a lot too.

I guess it is possible that this is even more widespread than this investigation indicates. If that's true, I've got to do some soul-searching in regards to my connection with college basketball. Heaven forbid, if it touches our program, I may have to change some of my hobbies.

[TKG]

In 1990 Alexander Wolff and Armen Keteyian (both Sports Illustrated writers at the time) wrote a book entitled Raw Recruits. In it, Wolff and Keteyian delve into the seedy underbelly of college basketball recruiting and the growing influence of the shoe companies. Sonny Vaccaro, who at the time was a Nike employee, figures prominently in the book. Twenty-seven years later, what has changed? From yesterday's news reports it would be seem that the answer is "not much". Is this book a perfect comparison to what began to transpire yesterday? Probably not. But directionally, it is a little scary.

I pray we have our house in order. As the momentum of yesterday's announcements grow among members of the media (mainstream and others) we will be prove an enticing target. On the front page DBR uses the "existential" to describe the potential impact of the unfolding scandal on college sports. We are a major and successful player in college sports. Nike pays K a butt-load of money and we have been on an incredible roll on the basketball recruiting trail - we have grabbed the headlines with recruits reclassifying. I pray we have our house in order.

[Indoor66]

It means Pitano will be fired.

Pitano of course denies knowing anything. Once again, he is a victim.

SoCal

He and Roy can retire to the same place and blather nothingisms to each other since they know so little.

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

In 1990 Alexander Wolff and Armen Keteyian (both Sports Illustrated writers at the time) wrote a book entitled Raw Recruits. In it, Wolff and Keteyian delve into the seedy underbelly of college basketball recruiting and the growing influence of the shoe companies. Sonny Vaccaro, who at the time was a Nike employee, figures prominently in the book. Twenty-seven years later, what has changed? From yesterday's news reports it would be seem that the answer is "not much". Is this book a perfect comparison to what began to transpire yesterday? Probably not. But directionally, it is a little scary.

I pray we have our house in order. As the momentum of yesterday's announcements grow among members of the media (mainstream and others) we will be prove an enticing target. On the front page DBR uses the "existential" to describe the potential impact of the unfolding scandal on college sports. We are a major and successful player in college sports. Nike pays K a butt-load of money and we have been on an incredible roll on the basketball recruiting trail - we have grabbed the headlines with recruits reclassifying. I pray we have our house in order.

Vaccaro signed Jimmy V back at Iona (40 years ago). This article (https://www.si.com/vault/1988/11/16/118877/the-old-soft-shoe-with-some-fancy-footwork-super-sneaker-salesman-sonny-vaccaro-has-become-a-power-in-college-basketball#) from nearly 30 years ago details his rise.

[Troublemaker]

I'm not nervous, frankly, although I readily admit it's not impossible nor something I would bet my life against.

Bowen and Quinerly were two recruits that I privately wondered why Duke wasn't pursuing. I think I know the answer now, which is why I'm not nervous.

[dudog84]

I think we will learn a lot by the level of reaction from other programs in the next 72 hours. If other schools react with shock/anger, it's probably safe to assume that most schools are at least attempting to follow the rules. Of other coaches/ADs/programs are silent, well, that says quite a lot too.

I guess it is possible that this is even more widespread than this investigation indicates. If that's true, I've got to do some soul-searching in regards to my connection with college basketball. Heaven forbid, if it touches our program, I may have to change some of my hobbies.

I'm not sure silence means a whole lot. This is a pretty tight fraternity.

[BeachBlueDevil]

I'd be nervous as a fan of any Division 1 college basketball or college football team, period.

I think at this point that's an overreaction. Power 5 schools might want to worry, but again that I think could be a little to much as well.

[bob blue devil]

I'm not sure silence means a whole lot. This is a pretty tight fraternity.

if you believe dan dakich (and maybe i should just end my comment there, but, 'what the hay') many coaches are publicly silent but privately gleeful that maybe this will catalyze a long-overdue clean-up of college hoops (as well as bring some justice to some of those cheating the system).

[MChambers]

I'm not sure silence means a whole lot. This is a pretty tight fraternity.
Agreed. Also, why would other schools comment? I don’t see why they would gain by commenting.

[Neals384]

In 1990 Alexander Wolff and Armen Keteyian (both Sports Illustrated writers at the time) wrote a book entitled Raw Recruits. In it, Wolff and Keteyian delve into the seedy underbelly of college basketball recruiting and the growing influence of the shoe companies. Sonny Vaccaro, who at the time was a Nike employee, figures prominently in the book. Twenty-seven years later, what has changed? From yesterday's news reports it would be seem that the answer is "not much". Is this book a perfect comparison to what began to transpire yesterday? Probably not. But directionally, it is a little scary.

I pray we have our house in order. As the momentum of yesterday's announcements grow among members of the media (mainstream and others) we will be prove an enticing target. On the front page DBR uses the "existential" to describe the potential impact of the unfolding scandal on college sports. We are a major and successful player in college sports. Nike pays K a butt-load of money and we have been on an incredible roll on the basketball recruiting trail - we have GCWR4 the headlines with recruits reclassifying. I pray we have our house in order.

I hope this is simply shorthand for "Nike pays the Duke basketball program". In these troubled times careful wording is a must.

[TKG]

A closer look at the $160 million deal between Louisville and Adidas from this morning's Louisville Courier-Journal.


http://www.courier-journal.com/story/sports/college/louisville/2017/09/27/louisville-adidas-college-basketball-scandal/706617001/

[OldPhiKap]

Agreed. Also, why would other schools comment? I don’t see why they would gain by commenting.

I am sure the institution's lawyers are specifically advising that they stay out of it. And, for coaches, their personal lawyers are as well.

"This isn't the NCAA. These are federal criminal indictments. Keep your head down, your mouth shut, and if there's anything I need to know you better get to the bottom of it and tell me now.

"As the saying goes -- the first to squeal gets the deal."

[PackMan97]

Jason "can the ACC kick Louisville out of the conference " Evans

Of course they can, but only because they really want to show UNC what will happen should the Cheats get caught again! Next time, they'll mean business.

[OldPhiKap]

Of course they can, but only because they really want to show UNC what will happen should the Cheats get caught again! Next time, they'll mean business.

Can John Swofford really suspend Cleveland State?

[MChambers]

I am sure the institution's lawyers are specifically advising that they stay out of it. And, for coaches, their personal lawyers are as well.

"This isn't the NCAA. These are federal criminal indictments. Keep your head down, your mouth shut, and if there's anything I need to know you better get to the bottom of it and tell me now.

"As the saying goes -- the first to squeal gets the deal."

That’s the advice I would give. As a client of mine once said, “spouting whales get harpooned.”

[dudog84]

Think about this. Recruiting is the life's blood of college basketball. As an assistant coach, being a good recruiter is the fastest way to move up the chain. So if you play a little fast and loose, what's the worst that could happen? You get smacked around by the NCAA. May even lose your job and have to do penance for a few years at a "lower" program. But we've seen plenty of examples where they just move around within the profession.

Do you think they ever considered the possibility of criminal indictments and jail time? I'll bet there's not one of them that could cite the subsection of U.S. Code referenced above. Did any know they were committing wire fraud or defrauding their university that got federal funds? I know, I know, ignorance of the law is not a defense. But what a mess these guys have gotten themselves into. They're gonna be squealing like pigs. I almost (no, not really) feel sorry for them.

[DangerDevil]

I hope this is simply shorthand for "Nike pays the Duke basketball program". In these troubled times careful wording is a must.

Nike pays both Duke University and Coach K a lot of money. Just like they do all of the other prominent and not so prominent sports programs and coaches that they have contracts with.

I don't think the financial details of the current contract between Duke and Nike have been publicly disclosed, I couldn't find them anywhere.

Speculation on Coach K's first Nike contact signed in 1993 when Duke switched from Addidas to Nike was that he received a $1M signing bonus and an annual salary of at least $375k for 15 years. At that time, I believe that individual coaches were allowed to make the decision on what shoe/apparel brand their team would wear.

http://www.nytimes.com/1993/04/14/sports/sports-people-college-basketball-a-lucrative-nike-deal-for-krzyzewski.html

Duke, like most schools now has an apparel agreement for all sports programs. Nike provides gear for all 27 sports programs.

http://duke.247sports.com/Bolt/Dukes-new-Nike-deal-already-paying-dividends-in-apparel-40302074

[CrazyNotCrazie]

The money floating between shoe companies, coaches, boosters and players has been the worst kept secret around for ages. The only thing that has surprised me is that when a player came to the coach of school X saying "school Y offered me money, will you match it?" the coach of school X didn't rat out school Y to the NCAA. But I guess it is honor among thieves. It also shows how useless the NCAA was perceived to be - it takes the FBI to actually get something done.

I am hoping Louisville's program is shut down for a while, but I believe that decision has to be made by the NCAA, and they are not known for acting swiftly. In the unlikely class that Bowen actually attends class, I am guessing he will not be the most popular guy around, unless everyone is hitting him up for money since he clearly has some.

[Indoor66]

It is being reported that Rick Pitino will be fired today.

[OldPhiKap]

The money floating between shoe companies, coaches, boosters and players has been the worst kept secret around for ages. The only thing that has surprised me is that when a player came to the coach of school X saying "school Y offered me money, will you match it?" the coach of school X didn't rat out school Y to the NCAA. But I guess it is honor among thieves. It also shows how useless the NCAA was perceived to be - it takes the FBI to actually get something done.

I am hoping Louisville's program is shut down for a while, but I believe that decision has to be made by the NCAA, and they are not known for acting swiftly. In the unlikely class that Bowen actually attends class, I am guessing he will not be the most popular guy around, unless everyone is hitting him up for money since he clearly has some.

Louisville, and some of these institutions, may do some serious self-imposing. Not because of the NCAA -- but to show the feds that they had nothing to do with it and they took swift remedial action.

If I were Louisville's lawyer, for example, and if the allegations as reported are true, I would advise:

1. Fire all involved employees, immediately.
2. Suspend participation by the men's BB team until an internal investigation is conducted.
3. If any players are found to have participated, expel them and revoke their scholarships.

Seriously, cut the rot out ASAP and show that you are not a passive party -- what the feds like to call "unindicted co-conspirators, accomplices, aiders and abettors."

Sounds like the basis of a serious R.I.C.O. civil suit as well. Better start drafting that complaint . . . .

[Atlanta Duke]

It is being reported that Rick Pitino will be fired today.

Then the action shifts to settling up on the buyout

"Rick Pitino’s attorney Steve Pence promises that [University of Louisville] 'won’t fire Pitino without a bare-knuckle fight,'" Terry Meiners, a Louisville TV and radio personality, posted on his blog.

"Pence predicts that Pitino would prevail in a legal struggle over his reported $44 million buyout," the post continued.

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/2017/09/27/rick-pitino-fight-fired-louisville-basketball-scandal/707272001/

No way the fight over how much gets paid ever gets to the discovery stage of litigation

[MrPoon]

A closer look at the $160 million deal between Louisville and Adidas from this morning's Louisville Courier-Journal.


http://www.courier-journal.com/story/sports/college/louisville/2017/09/27/louisville-adidas-college-basketball-scandal/706617001/

This is a really interesting angle to this story. I've been focused on LU losing their hall of fame (slimeball) coach and possible death sentence from the NCAA that I didn't consider the financial impact. More to the point if (when) they get significantly hammered, does the shoe company have the right to back out of the deal if the school isn't competing (or at least competitive) in the sports they are sponsored? What if they aren't competitive in part BECAUSE of the shoe company? The financial hit of losing that contract could be worse than anything the NCAA could bring. If they lose the deal, imagine what shoe company comes along and for how much? Keds for $18.25 a year?

[BD80]

It is being reported that Rick Pitino will be fired today.


Then the action shifts to settling up on the buyout ...

And the replacement. There's a young coach at Minnesota who is doing a good job ...

[CameronBornAndBred]

If they lose the deal, imagine what shoe company comes along and for how much? Keds for $18.25 a year?

LaVar Ball is probably on the phone right now.

[OldPhiKap]

And the replacement. There's a young coach at Minnesota who is doing a good job ...

And I hear Louisville treats its recruits well. I assume that applies to potential coaches as well?

Seriously -- who would take that job under these circumstances?

[Wander]

While the FBI will expose 10 or so teams that are so willing to cheat, we should remember that the bulk of the teams are playing by the rules.

I have no idea if that's true. Obviously, this sort of scandal doesn't jive with my perception of Coach K and the Duke administration, and I don't think Duke is involved, but I also recognize I don't know any of these people on any meaningful personal level. But there's still hundreds of other schools out there. I really just have no clue how widespread this is other than knowing it exists.

It'd be nice if this whole thing ended with schools and shoe companies not being allowed to have any relationship at all.

[JasonEvans]

This is a really interesting angle to this story. I've been focused on LU losing their hall of fame (slimeball) coach and possible death sentence from the NCAA that I didn't consider the financial impact. More to the point if (when) they get significantly hammered, does the shoe company have the right to back out of the deal if the school isn't competing (or at least competitive) in the sports they are sponsored? What if they aren't competitive in part BECAUSE of the shoe company? The financial hit of losing that contract could be worse than anything the NCAA could bring. If they lose the deal, imagine what shoe company comes along and for how much? Keds for $18.25 a year?

It is worth noting that Louisville is in some real financial trouble. They just announced a few days ago that the school would stop funding the student newspaper (http://www.courier-journal.com/story/news/local/2017/09/18/u-l-stops-financial-support-campus-newspaper/676326001/)because there simply wasn't the money to do it. Louisville has a $48 mill deficit in their budget this year and they have been placed on SACS probation due to meddling by the Kentucky governor with the school's administration/board and serious financial problems at their foundation (https://www.insidehighered.com/news/2017/06/09/report-details-major-issues-university-louisville-foundation). This is a school that was already in prety big trouble. If their basketball program gets decimated (possible death penalty) that raises the real possibility their lucrative sponsorship deal with Adidas just goes away. Without that money, it is hard to see how Lousiville can remain in the big time college sports game.

There is a decent chance that this scandal results in the end of major college athletics at Lousiville. I'm serious.

-Jason "ESPN just alerted me that Pitino has told his staff that he is probably going to be fired. Sounds like lawyers are negotiating the end as we speak" Evans

[hudlow]

If I were Louisville's lawyer, for example, and if the allegations as reported are true, I would advise:

1. Fire all involved employees, immediately.
2. Suspend participation by the men's BB team until an internal investigation is conducted.
3. If any players are found to have participated, expel them and revoke their scholarships.



4. Hold out as long as possible to see what happens to uNC.

[OldPhiKap]

4. Hold out as long as possible to see what happens to uNC.

You can stiff-arm the NCAA indefinitely, apparently.

You can't slow down the feds. Believe me, I've tried.

[Neals384]

Nike pays both Duke University and Coach K a lot of money. Just like they do all of the other prominent and not so prominent sports programs and coaches that they have contracts with.

I don't think the financial details of the current contract between Duke and Nike have been publicly disclosed, I couldn't find them anywhere.

Speculation on Coach K's first Nike contact signed in 1993 when Duke switched from Addidas to Nike was that he received a $1M signing bonus and an annual salary of at least $375k for 15 years. At that time, I believe that individual coaches were allowed to make the decision on what shoe/apparel brand their team would wear.

http://www.nytimes.com/1993/04/14/sports/sports-people-college-basketball-a-lucrative-nike-deal-for-krzyzewski.html

Duke, like most schools now has an apparel agreement for all sports programs. Nike provides gear for all 27 sports programs.

http://duke.247sports.com/Bolt/Dukes-new-Nike-deal-already-paying-dividends-in-apparel-40302074

Wow. Thanks, I had no idea.

[Atlanta Duke]

And I hear Louisville treats its recruits well. I assume that applies to potential coaches as well?

Seriously -- who would take that job under these circumstances?

Not the first time in recent NCAA history an assistant coach from a successful program would come in amid the still smoldering wreckage

Bill O'Brien came in after Joe Paterno from his position as offensive coordinator for the Patriots, kept Penn State afloat for 2 years, and leveraged that into a head coaching job in the NFL

[OldPhiKap]

Not the first time in recent NCAA history an assistant coach from a successful program came in amid the still smoldering wreckage and it turned out well

Bill O'Brien came in after Joe Paterno from his position as offensive coordinator for the Patriots, kept Penn State afloat for 2 years, and leveraged that into a head coaching job in the NFL

True. And I am always cautious when comparing something to the Paterno mess because the argument always spins off into PBB territory. I'll tread lightly to say that Louisville could end up with a self-imposed death penalty for some of the reasons Jason set out. There may not be a Louisville basketball team by the end of the year, let alone three years from now. Their ability to get decent players has suddenly evaporated.

While the Paterno situation was incredibly disturbing, I don't think it jeopardized the very existence of Penn State football. This mess, by contrast, does.

More to the point -- practice starts in a month or so I think. Pitino and some of his staff are apparently implicated in this, and will all be gone by sundown. What a mess.

[hudlow]

You can stiff-arm the NCAA indefinitely, apparently.

You can't slow down the feds. Believe me, I've tried.
You gotta pick your battles...

[swood1000]

Rick Pitino tells staff he expects to lose his job. (http://www.espn.com/mens-college-basketball/story/_/id/20835336/louisville-basketball-coach-rick-pitino-tells-staff-expects-lose-job)

[Neals384]

from one of the indictments:


On or about April 5, 2016, EVANS and CW-1 spoke by telephone. During the call, which CW-1 recorded, EVANS informed CW-1 that it <the move to Ok State> was a "better job" because it was "better players, more, more, more business." <snip> Evans assured CW-1 that he had spoken to Player-3's <from South Carolina> family and "it's always gonna be business with them. The mom text me." EVANS added that he wanted to start making payments to Player-3 and his family "to make sure they're solidified as far as things getting done on their end. You know what I mean?"

In another part of the indictment, EVANS assures CW-1 that Player-3 "will be a first round pick next year." So Player-3 can only be Sindarius Thornwell (little optimistic on the first round thing). If he indeed took cash, then he was ineligible, and South Carolina may end up forfeiting all its 2017 wins. Kinda burns that Duke exited the tournament at the hands of cheaters from Carolina.

[OldPhiKap]

Laura Keeley retweeted something from Eric Crawford (not sure who he is), showing a clause in Pitino's contract that he is supposed to get 10 day's written notice of the reasons for firing so he can respond.

My guess is, quick Rick will gladly waive that clause here.

[TKG]

You can't slow down the feds.

Is this a variation on the theme: You cannot stop him. You can only hope to contain him.?

[sammy3469]

Then the action shifts to settling up on the buyout

"Rick Pitino’s attorney Steve Pence promises that [University of Louisville] 'won’t fire Pitino without a bare-knuckle fight,'" Terry Meiners, a Louisville TV and radio personality, posted on his blog.

"Pence predicts that Pitino would prevail in a legal struggle over his reported $44 million buyout," the post continued.

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/2017/09/27/rick-pitino-fight-fired-louisville-basketball-scandal/707272001/

No way the fight over how much gets paid ever gets to the discovery stage of litigation

So when the two assistants that set up the Bowen payoff flip on him (they may already be co-operating which is why they weren't indicted yesterday), does he get to keep the $44 million if he's in prison?

[JasonEvans]

In another part of the indictment, EVANS assures CW-1 that Player-3 "will be a first round pick next year." So Player-3 can only be Sindarius Thornwell (little optimistic on the first round thing). If he indeed took cash, then he was ineligible, and South Carolina may end up forfeiting all its 2017 wins. Kinda burns that Duke exited the tournament at the hands of cheaters from Carolina.

Also coulda been PJ Dozier. He too had first round illusions.

I also wonder why the indictments don't name names but give enough clues so that anyone could figure it out. What is the point? When they list exact number of students and dates of public events and stuff like that that a simple google can figure out, why not just name the people and institutions?

[OldPhiKap]

Apparently I was wrong in thinking that practice starts in a month or so.

Just got a tweet from Arowe -- practice for us at least starts Friday.

Good luck, Louisville!

[dudog84]

from one of the indictments:



In another part of the indictment, EVANS assures CW-1 that Player-3 "will be a first round pick next year." So Player-3 can only be Sindarius Thornwell (little optimistic on the first round thing). If he indeed took cash, then he was ineligible, and South Carolina may end up forfeiting all its 2017 wins. Kinda burns that Duke exited the tournament at the hands of cheaters from Carolina.

Greatest season in the history of South Carolina men's basketball up in smoke.

[swood1000]

Hold the presses! Rick Pitino is shocked by these schemes, initiated by a few bad actors.


"These allegations come as a complete shock to me. If true, I agree with the U.S. Attorney's Office that these third-party schemes, initiated by a few bad actors, operated to commit a fraud on the impacted universities and their basketball programs, including the University of Louisville. Our fans and supporters deserve better and I am committed to taking whatever steps are needed to ensure those responsible are held accountable." https://www.cbssports.com/college-basketball/news/rick-pitino-claims-scandal-a-complete-shock-with-a-few-bad-actors-to-blame/