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throatybeard
10-19-2007, 06:10 PM
You remember all that high church from Miami fans on the board several years ago, about how Willie Williams was a good kid, and we were being a bunch of judgmental tools about him? Even though he'd been arrested 11 times?

He's now flunked out of both Miami and UL Football for behavior issues. He's been dismissed from Louisville's football program during a traffic stop, partly for hiding marijuana in his mouth. :D

I'll keep this in mind the next time I hear about how SEC sports are categorically dirty and ACC sports are categorically "academic" and awesome, especially private schools

Clipsfan
10-19-2007, 07:45 PM
I don't think that you'll find many people on here who think that Miami's a classy/clean program.

mapei
10-19-2007, 11:13 PM
Was he at Miami since Miami has been in the ACC? Is Miami a real ACC school anyway?

Ignatius07
10-20-2007, 02:03 AM
Seriously. Why won't they just go away? And they can take BC and VaTech with them so we can return to a double round robin and stop pretending to be a football conference.

CatfiveCane
10-21-2007, 11:16 PM
You remember all that high church from Miami fans on the board several years ago, about how Willie Williams was a good kid, and we were being a bunch of judgmental tools about him? Even though he'd been arrested 11 times?

He's now flunked out of both Miami and UL Football for behavior issues. He's been dismissed from Louisville's football program during a traffic stop, partly for hiding marijuana in his mouth. :D

I'll keep this in mind the next time I hear about how SEC sports are categorically dirty and ACC sports are categorically "academic" and awesome, especially private schools


Doesn't it annoy you when ignorant fans make wrong and blanket statements about Duke? Well you just made one about Miami. There's a reason why Duke is "hated" around the rest of the country. I think Throatybeard just made a good example as to the reason why. Heck, I'm a Duke alum, and I can't even stand some of the snobby comments Duke fans make.


Let's get some facts straight here:

1) Willie Williams did not flunk out of Miami. He transferred since Randy Shannon refused to play him any significant minutes. Yet during his tenure at Miami, Willie Williams never got into one incidence of trouble.

2) Whether Miami should have accepted Willie Williams after his juvenile record become public is another debate.

3) Academics: there are probably only 4 ACC schools that can have a legit claim to being a better academic school than Miami: Duke, Wake, UNC, and UVA. FSU, Clemson, Virginia Tech, NC State are clearly "inferior" academic schools. Georgia Tech and Boston College can go eitherway depending on what you argue.

4) While the FIU brawl was a black-eye to Miami and the ACC, Miami has not had one arrest in probably 8-9 years. Miami has been a very clean program during the Butch Davis, Larry Coker, and Randy Shannon era. Probably cleaner than Duke football. Now you compare this to UF (team captain arrested for felony), Ohio State's 3rd string QB getting arresting for soliciting a hooker, and FSU (players actually assaulting a police officer), Miami has been a clean program.

Devilsfan
10-21-2007, 11:34 PM
Miami, a team of choir boys? Perception has them as a feeder school for the Cincinnati NFL franchise..

xenic
10-21-2007, 11:47 PM
3) Academics: there are probably only 4 ACC schools that can have a legit claim to being a better academic school than Miami: Duke, Wake, UNC, and UVA. FSU, Clemson, Virginia Tech, NC State are clearly "inferior" academic schools. Georgia Tech and Boston College can go eitherway depending on what you argue.


What gives you the impression that NC State is "clearly 'inferior'"?

CatfiveCane
10-21-2007, 11:48 PM
Miami, a team of choir boys? Perception has them as a feeder school for the Cincinnati NFL franchise..

Huh? Miami doesn't even have a player on the Bengals.

Miami has the most NFL players. No one said they were choir boys... but that doesn't mean they are "thugs" either.

jlear
10-22-2007, 07:37 AM
What gives you the impression that NC State is "clearly 'inferior'"?

NCSU - admits 61% of applicants - 37% are in the top 10% of graduating class - ACT middle 50% = 21 to 26 - SAT midlle 50% = 1540 - 1880

UM - admits 40% of applicants - 67% are in the top 10% of graduating call - ACT middle 50% = 26 to 31 - SAT middle 50% = 1730 -2020

I think it is clear that NCSU is inferior academically since these are the same measures we use show Duke is the best.

Duke - admits 21% of applicants - 87% are in the top 10% of graduating call - ACT middle 50% = 29 to 34 - SAT middle 50% = 2070 - 2330 (estimate)

That said the only time I pull for Miami is when they play UNC and the only time I don't pull for NCSU is when they play Duke.

jlear
10-22-2007, 07:55 AM
Huh? Miami doesn't even have a player on the Bengals.

Miami has the most NFL players. No one said they were choir boys... but that doesn't mean they are "thugs" either.

Miami’s players’ and fans’ have reputations of un-sportsmanlike arrogance. Miami fans call it swagger. I have not seen any evidence to support any change to this reputation. Cincinnati currently has the above the law reputation in the NFL. Many, non-Miami fans, refer to Miami as the Oakland Raiders of College ball.

Congrats on having the largest number of NFL players for the second consecutive year. It is just too bad you couldn’t beat UNC on the only day most here were Miami fans! :)

Chard
10-22-2007, 11:14 AM
Doesn't it annoy you when ignorant fans make wrong and blanket statements about Duke? Well you just made one about Miami. There's a reason why Duke is "hated" around the rest of the country. I think Throatybeard just made a good example as to the reason why. Heck, I'm a Duke alum, and I can't even stand some of the snobby comments Duke fans make.

Let's get some facts straight here:

1) Willie Williams did not flunk out of Miami. He transferred since Randy Shannon refused to play him any significant minutes. Yet during his tenure at Miami, Willie Williams never got into one incidence of trouble.

2) Whether Miami should have accepted Willie Williams after his juvenile record become public is another debate.

3) Academics: there are probably only 4 ACC schools that can have a legit claim to being a better academic school than Miami: Duke, Wake, UNC, and UVA. FSU, Clemson, Virginia Tech, NC State are clearly "inferior" academic schools. Georgia Tech and Boston College can go eitherway depending on what you argue.

4) While the FIU brawl was a black-eye to Miami and the ACC, Miami has not had one arrest in probably 8-9 years. Miami has been a very clean program during the Butch Davis, Larry Coker, and Randy Shannon era. Probably cleaner than Duke football. Now you compare this to UF (team captain arrested for felony), Ohio State's 3rd string QB getting arresting for soliciting a hooker, and FSU (players actually assaulting a police officer), Miami has been a clean program.

Mega-ditto.

WW (http://www.allcanes.com/blog/2007/09/rip-willie-williams-sort-of.html) was given all the opportunity in the world. He is responsible for his actions. Shannon is purging those types of players from the program, not that there were a lot to begin with. I defended WW being admitted to The U. He did well there but sought more playing time.

There was one arrest (Antrell Rolle) a few years ago. He was acquitted of all charges. Last year, Ryan Moore was arrested for a nightclub incident. He was suspended for the team for the majority of the season. Miami really needed him last year but he sat until his legal issues where taken care of.

Miami lead the conference, last year I believe, in Academic All American football players.Thug Who? (http://www.allcanes.com/blog/2007/02/thug-who.html)
It was announced over the weekend that the University of Miami led the ACC with the most student athletes on the All-Academic Team. G Andrew Bain, OT Jason Fox, TE Greg Olsen, PK Jon Peattie, S Kenny Phillips, LB Darryl Sharpton, WR Sam Sheilds and C Anthony Wollschlager were the eight Canes who were honored.


In 2005, the University of Miami recorded an 87% NCAA Football Graduation Rate. The U has exceeded the average (70% graduation rate) among football student athletes in nine of the past 15 seasons and has exceeded the national graduation rate for American Football Coaches Association (AFCA) member schools 13 of 15 years.


There are several players that were not admitted to Miami due to admissions issues that are playing on other teams. LSU (SEC) has a linebacker named Ali Highsmith that couldn't get in to Miami. NCSU took Bobby Washington after he couldn't get into Miami. Those are just two that I know of off the top of my head. Noel Devine, superfrosh from the state of FL is playing at WVU (throaty's favorite). He stayed away from Miami because of the admissions standards.

There is another UL player, Nate Harris, who was originally a Miami recruit. He was charged with armed robbery before his freshman year and the scholarship was promptly taken away. I think he graduated from UL last year.

I think this would reflect more on UL's program than Miami's but ignorance and a willingness to disparage causes some folks to focus on negatives and post things they have no clue about.

Chard
10-22-2007, 11:15 AM
Congrats on having the largest number of NFL players for the second consecutive year. It is just too bad you couldn’t beat UNC on the only day most here were Miami fans! :)

I really, really hate UNC.

GopherBlue
10-22-2007, 11:37 AM
3) Academics: there are probably only 4 ACC schools that can have a legit claim to being a better academic school than Miami: Duke, Wake, UNC, and UVA. FSU, Clemson, Virginia Tech, NC State are clearly "inferior" academic schools. Georgia Tech and Boston College can go either way depending on what you argue.



And it appears that Maryland and 'academics' don't belong in the same paragraph...:D

Channing
10-22-2007, 12:20 PM
Doesn't it annoy you when ignorant fans make wrong and blanket statements about Duke? Well you just made one about Miami. There's a reason why Duke is "hated" around the rest of the country. I think Throatybeard just made a good example as to the reason why. Heck, I'm a Duke alum, and I can't even stand some of the snobby comments Duke fans make.





3) Academics: there are probably only 4 ACC schools that can have a legit claim to being a better academic school than Miami: Duke, Wake, UNC, and UVA. FSU, Clemson, Virginia Tech, NC State are clearly "inferior" academic schools. Georgia Tech and Boston College can go eitherway depending on what you argue.


In throaty's defense, he did not make a blanket statement about miami fans. He made a specific statement about Miami fans that came onto this board. I did not read that as a blanket indictment of Miami fans in general.

Second, I can't give the exact numbers that Jlear gave, but GT and BC are ranked ~mid 30s in the US News rankings and Miami is in the low 50s. I know US news is not perfect, but it seems like those two schools have pretty solid argument.

throatybeard
10-22-2007, 01:42 PM
First, I love the screen name "CatFiveCane." Mad props.

Second, my point was not that Miami is unerringly dirty for all time, but rather that (a) reputation is pliable and often based on stereotype (SEC bad; ACC good!) and (b) Miami fans who argued for WW when he was in HS subjected us to a lot of high church about how we were being judgmental...and here he is now.

Third, Chard and C5C, you guys are kind of making my point for me. You're falling back on the exact same elitist thinking of which you accuse Duke fans. Citing US News rankings and equating the quality of an entire institution with two numbers (frosh acceptance, mean ACT/SAT) couldn't be more elitist. As you can see with C5C's crack on State. This whole label of "academic school" is bogus. Miami and Duke recruit some bad apples. Texas A&M has nobel winners on the faculty. All three are "academic schools" in spite of what most bulletin board sports fans would have you believe. Believe it or not, Universities do things beyond the scope of the admissions of 17 year olds.

Chard
10-22-2007, 02:41 PM
Second, my point was not that Miami is unerringly dirty for all time, but rather that (a) reputation is pliable and often based on stereotype (SEC bad; ACC good!) and (b) Miami fans who argued for WW when he was in HS subjected us to a lot of high church about how we were being judgmental...and here he is now.

"Subjected" is an interesting term. I don't remember a Miami fan starting a thread about WW at the time of his scholarship offer. Hmmm, I wonder who started it.

Hey, he had his chance which is all I was arguing for. He blew it. He didn't get into trouble while at Miami. He got into trouble at UL. Whether or not he is a good person, I don't know and neither do you unless you know him personally. I doubt that. His recent legal troubles don’t change the fact that you were being judgmental regarding Miami. You pooh-poohed the school for giving him a chance. That is why you got the "high church", whatever that means.

WW has some problems. People tried to help him and provide an education. Shame on them.



Third, Chard and C5C, you guys are kind of making my point for me. You're falling back on the exact same elitist thinking of which you accuse Duke fans. Citing US News rankings and equating the quality of an entire institution with two numbers (frosh acceptance, mean ACT/SAT) couldn't be more elitist. As you can see with C5C's crack on State. This whole label of "academic school" is bogus. Miami and Duke recruit some bad apples. Texas A&M has nobel winners on the faculty. All three are "academic schools" in spite of what most bulletin board sports fans would have you believe. Believe it or not, Universities do things beyond the scope of the admissions of 17 year olds.

You're calling me elitist for supplying factual information? What!? That is a reach. I don't think I'm making your point at all. I don't remember stating anything about other schools other than the acceptance of players that couldn't get in Miami. In fact, that was jlear that posted the ACT/SAT info. It isn't elitist, it is just a fact and one that pokes holes in the assertion that Miami is a poor representative of the ACC academically and that Miami will do anything to win on the football field.

blazindw
10-22-2007, 03:06 PM
Let's get some facts straight here:

1) Willie Williams did not flunk out of Miami. He transferred since Randy Shannon refused to play him any significant minutes. Yet during his tenure at Miami, Willie Williams never got into one incidence of trouble.


I just graduated from Miami Law in May, and there's a couple discrepancies. First, C5C was correct in saying that WW did not flunk out of Miami. He transfered in good academic standing and without getting into any sort of outside trouble. However, Shannon was not the head coach at that time, he was the defensive coordinator. WW transferred before the 2006 season, when Coker was still the head coach. So, even though Shannon was the DC, it was Coker who had final say over the gameplan and the depth chart. On the contrary, while he didn't play in many games, WW did get significant playing time in those games. Next, WW did not transfer immediately to Louisville. He wanted to transfer to West Virginia and then Louisville. Both were denied by Miami due to their transfer policy. WW then transferred to West Los Angeles CC, from where he later transferred to Louisville in January of this year.

Chard
10-22-2007, 05:02 PM
I just graduated from Miami Law in May, and there's a couple discrepancies. First, C5C was correct in saying that WW did not flunk out of Miami. He transfered in good academic standing and without getting into any sort of outside trouble. However, Shannon was not the head coach at that time, he was the defensive coordinator. WW transferred before the 2006 season, when Coker was still the head coach. So, even though Shannon was the DC, it was Coker who had final say over the gameplan and the depth chart. On the contrary, while he didn't play in many games, WW did get significant playing time in those games. Next, WW did not transfer immediately to Louisville. He wanted to transfer to West Virginia and then Louisville. Both were denied by Miami due to their transfer policy. WW then transferred to West Los Angeles CC, from where he later transferred to Louisville in January of this year.

That is correct. However, I believe Shannon had a huge part in WW not seeing the starting rotation. That and a knee injury.