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View Full Version : Equifax was hacked ....... 143 million records exposed



madscavenger
09-07-2017, 07:49 PM
The story is over at att.net, but i imagine its everywhere by now. Name, SS#, DOB, Addresses....... and some credit card numbers. As usual, you will be expected to bear the burden.

moonpie23
09-07-2017, 10:36 PM
kinda makes having you credit report "locked up" with the big 3 kind of limp....

JasonEvans
09-08-2017, 10:30 AM
Of course, the best part is that as soon as Equifax heard about the breach -- weeks before they told the public about it -- three senior executives of the company dumped $1.8 mil worth of stock (http://money.cnn.com/2017/09/08/investing/equifax-stock-insider-sales-hack-data-breach/index.html). Equifax stock is down more than 15% as I write this, so these guys used their inside info to save something like $300,000. Equifax claims the three executives had no knowledge of the breach, but I find it hard to believe that the freaking CFO was not told about the largest data breach in company history!

-Jason "This is criminal in my mind and these !#^&@! should be sent to jail... and should be forced to pay huge fines" Evans

dudog84
09-08-2017, 11:05 AM
Of course, the best part is that as soon as Equifax heard about the breach -- weeks before they told the public about it -- three senior executives of the company dumped $1.8 mil worth of stock (http://money.cnn.com/2017/09/08/investing/equifax-stock-insider-sales-hack-data-breach/index.html). Equifax stock is down more than 15% as I write this, so these guys used their inside info to save something like $300,000. Equifax claims the three executives had no knowledge of the breach, but I find it hard to believe that the freaking CFO was not told about the largest data breach in company history!

-Jason "This is criminal in my mind and these !#^&@! should be sent to jail... and should be forced to pay huge fines" Evans

Do you not understand how this country works?

A-Tex Devil
09-08-2017, 11:33 AM
Thoughts about freezing credit if you aren't imminently applying for anything? How hard is it to unfreeze?

aimo
09-08-2017, 12:10 PM
Thoughts about freezing credit if you aren't imminently applying for anything? How hard is it to unfreeze?

My understanding, it's about $10 to unfreeze.

My stuff is already being monitored b/c of the federal employee hack the other year.

PackMan97
09-08-2017, 12:26 PM
The execs should absolutely be in jail. I can't recall how often as a low level employee I'm told don't sell stock if you know material information. There is NO WAY the CFO and head of US IT didn't know about this hack. Even if they sell on a schedule, you stop it.

With regards to to the data breach, I love how they lead with the fact their core credit reporting databases were not hacked! Yay! My credit score is safe, but everything needed to steal my identity was given to theives!

Jeffrey
09-08-2017, 12:30 PM
I hesitate to write this on a public forum, but I'm certain the bad guys are very well aware.

IMO, this is the largest problem the USA faces. Terrorist never need to come anywhere near our borders to wreck total havoc on our financial system. Imagine getting up one morning to find there is no money in your bank account. Now, imagine over 100 million Americans simultaneously having the same experience.

I'm prepared for this possibility, but I doubt many Americans are. Maybe, you should be prepared.

Jeffrey
09-08-2017, 12:35 PM
The execs should absolutely be in jail.

The man with the gold makes the rules!

budwom
09-08-2017, 01:24 PM
The man with the gold makes the rules!

as the book The ChickenS**t Club points out, white collar criminals are rarely prosecuted these days, under anybody's administration (trying to point out it ain't Demos vs GOP hence not a political point of view of mine).

Jeffrey
09-08-2017, 01:31 PM
as the book The ChickenS**t Club points out, white collar criminals are rarely prosecuted these days, under anybody's administration (trying to point out it ain't Demos vs GOP hence not a political point of view of mine).

I cannot express, in (DBR approved) words, how amazed I am with what many of my peers have done with very little fear of being prosecuted, much less convicted. IMO, our government is more concerned about generating revenue (fines, settlements, etc.) than prosecuting criminals.

Absolutely, almost all politicians are for sale!

elvis14
09-08-2017, 01:57 PM
I cannot express, in (DBR approved) words, how amazed I am with what many of my peers have done with very little fear of being prosecuted, much less convicted. IMO, our government is more concerned about generating revenue (fines, settlements, etc.) than prosecuting criminals.

Absolutely, almost all politicians are for sale!

I'd rather fine these guys (money coming in) than put them in jail (money going out). The difference is that I'd make the fines high enough to be painful and to discourage the behavior. <--- Note that's theoretical and there's a good chance I have no idea what I'm talking about (Jeffery swims in different/better pools than I do :-) )

Rich
09-08-2017, 01:58 PM
I hesitate to write this on a public forum, but I'm certain the bad guys are very well aware.

IMO, this is the largest problem the USA faces. Terrorist never need to come anywhere near our borders to wreck total havoc on our financial system. Imagine getting up one morning to find there is no money in your bank account. Now, imagine over 100 million Americans simultaneously having the same experience.

I'm prepared for this possibility, but I doubt many Americans are. Maybe, you should be prepared.

How does one prepare for that other than by hoarding cash in one's home?

aimo
09-08-2017, 02:01 PM
List of fees by state (scroll down)

https://www.transunion.com/credit-freeze/place-credit-freeze

Jeffrey
09-08-2017, 02:01 PM
I'd rather fine these guys (money coming in) than put them in jail (money going out). The difference is that I'd make the fines high enough to be painful and to discourage the behavior.

The reason this does not have a chance of working is these criminals usually pay their fines with other people's (usually shareholders') money.

Jeffrey
09-08-2017, 02:08 PM
How does one prepare for that other than by hoarding cash in one's home?

Have multiple bank accounts with at least one in a relatively small (hometown) financial institution. Terrorist only need to hit the 5 largest U.S. financial institutions to impact most U.S. bank accounts.

If you're only going to have one, then, IMO, make it a relatively small (hometown) financial institution.

budwom
09-08-2017, 02:10 PM
The reason this does not have a chance of working is these criminals usually pay their fines with other people's (usually shareholders') money.

Exactly. In fact they can easily do the calculation beforehand, figure out what each act of malfeasance will cost IF they are caught. Make it up at bonus time. Not much of a deterrent.
Me, I'm thinking the government should set up a deal with Erdogan so these guys can be sent to a Turkish prison (Midnight Express is still, to me, the scariest movie I have ever seen).
THAT would be a deterrent.

dudog84
09-08-2017, 02:20 PM
How does one prepare for that other than by hoarding cash in one's home?

I hesitate to plug my business so I'll be brief, but identity theft protection has been my main focus for the past 8 years. Your money in the bank is protected, if taken fraudulently the bank has to replace it. Unfortunately, they have 30 days to investigate and do so which can be a hardship to many. If you're diligent, you have a lot of protection against virtually all types of identity theft. Anyone wanting to know more should PM me.

Jeffrey
09-08-2017, 02:25 PM
Exactly. In fact they can easily do the calculation beforehand, figure out what each act of malfeasance will cost IF they are caught. Make it up at bonus time. Not much of a deterrent.


Yep, it's a very easy game to play. I could write an amazing book of truths which would almost certainly be put in the fiction section. Most people would never believe what I have seen.

Jeffrey
09-08-2017, 02:36 PM
I hesitate to plug my business so I'll be brief, but identity theft protection has been my main focus for the past 8 years. Your money in the bank is protected, if taken fraudulently the bank has to replace it. Unfortunately, they have 30 days to investigate and do so which can be a hardship to many. If you're diligent, you have a lot of protection against virtually all types of identity theft. Anyone wanting to know more should PM me.

I think you're mixing apples and oranges. Terrorist hacking into the largest U.S. financial institution databases and wiping out all bank accounts (either the records or actual money) is, IMO, not identity theft. If it occurs and affects over 100 million Americans simultaneously, then I would not call that massive identity theft. How would you firm simultaneously get money to all of those 100 million Americans (assuming all 100 million are your customers) within a few hours (they need to eat lunch)?

dudog84
09-08-2017, 03:43 PM
I think you're mixing apples and oranges. Terrorist hacking into the largest U.S. financial institution databases and wiping out all bank accounts (either the records or actual money) is, IMO, not identity theft. If it occurs and affects over 100 million Americans simultaneously, then I would not call that massive identity theft. How would you firm simultaneously get money to all of those 100 million Americans (assuming all 100 million are your customers) within a few hours (they need to eat lunch)?

I'm not the one mixing apples and oranges. I responded to a very specific post that was about personal protection. At no point did I even touch on terrorism or how this would affect banking institutions as a whole. At no time did I even remotely suggest that "you (my) firm" would immediately restore literally billions/trillions of dollars to every American. This is silly. As a matter of fact, my main competition has been fined over $100 million dollars (across multiple acts) for deceptive advertising of this sort. And just like the shysters at Equifax who sold stock, the penalty is pocket change compared to the financial gain.

In an attempt to assuage the, again, very specific concerns of a member of this community which is probably shared by others, I provided some information. In an attempt to not appear as a shill, perhaps I was overly brief. But I went back and re-read my post (which I was very careful about to begin with), and it is perfectly fine. Actually, I said the bank would replace the money within 30 days. Where did you get that I would personally replace everyone's money within minutes?

Jeffrey
09-08-2017, 05:57 PM
I'm not the one mixing apples and oranges. I responded to a very specific post that was about personal protection. At no point did I even touch on terrorism or how this would affect banking institutions as a whole. At no time did I even remotely suggest that "you (my) firm" would immediately restore literally billions/trillions of dollars to every American. This is silly. As a matter of fact, my main competition has been fined over $100 million dollars (across multiple acts) for deceptive advertising of this sort. And just like the shysters at Equifax who sold stock, the penalty is pocket change compared to the financial gain.

In an attempt to assuage the, again, very specific concerns of a member of this community which is probably shared by others, I provided some information. In an attempt to not appear as a shill, perhaps I was overly brief. But I went back and re-read my post (which I was very careful about to begin with), and it is perfectly fine. Actually, I said the bank would replace the money within 30 days. Where did you get that I would personally replace everyone's money within minutes?

No, you responded to Rich's post where Rich quoted me and asked me a question about my statement regarding terrorism.

http://forums.dukebasketballreport.com/forums/showthread.php?40430-Equifax-was-hacked-143-million-records-exposed&p=999627#post999627

I truly have tried to keep this very simple. Not sure how you got so easily lost (assuming you actually did).

Jeffrey
09-08-2017, 06:18 PM
As a matter of fact, my main competition has been fined over $100 million dollars (across multiple acts) for deceptive advertising of this sort. And just like the shysters at Equifax who sold stock, the penalty is pocket change compared to the financial gain.


So, your main competitor has made billions of dollars in profit selling "personal protection"? That's an extraordinary profit margin.


In an attempt to not appear as a shill, perhaps I was overly brief.


Why do you feel the need to "attempt to not appear as a shill"?

snowdenscold
09-08-2017, 06:21 PM
So although the stock thing looks incredibly bad on the surface and definitely hurts Equifax in the headlines, the whole thing still seems pretty odd to me.

These guys know their selling triggers public disclosures, and thus to do so right before a big news event means either they really didn't know or else they have incredible hubris.

Furthermore, they only sold a small percentage of their holdings, and in line with past sales. But yet these were open market and not part of a 10b5-1.
And you'd have to imagine news of this magnitude would make its way to senior execs pretty fast (at least the CFO - not sure exactly what those other two roles comprise).

Very puzzling.

Jeffrey
09-08-2017, 06:31 PM
So although the stock thing looks incredibly bad on the surface and definitely hurts Equifax in the headlines, the whole thing still seems pretty odd to me.

These guys know their selling triggers public disclosures, and thus to do so right before a big news event means either they really didn't know or else they have incredible hubris.

Furthermore, they only sold a small percentage of their holdings, and in line with past sales. But yet these were open market and not part of a 10b5-1.
And you'd have to imagine news of this magnitude would make its way to senior execs pretty fast (at least the CFO - not sure exactly what those other two roles comprise).

Very puzzling.

Let me make it even more puzzling. Look at the 2,600 put contracts bought on August 21st. That's 10 times the amount bought in the whole month of July!

fuse
09-08-2017, 08:41 PM
Not sure it will stand legally, checking on the equifax website if you were impacted and accepting their "free" protection apparently also opts you out of participating in a class action lawsuit.

Indoor66
09-09-2017, 07:33 AM
I have heard and read that one course of action to deal with the issue is to request a Credit Freeze with the three main credit bureaus. Clark Howard, Consumer Credit commentator has this on his website. (http://clark.com/personal-finance-credit/equifax-free-credit-monitoring-data-breach-dont-sign-up/?utm_medium=rare-america&utm_source=facebook&utm_campaign=organic-social&utm_content=rare-clark) It provides links all of the procedures for all the credit bureaus and details the procedures, issues and consequences. I recommend a review. It is painless and may be quite helpful. (Move down about one screen on the website and the specific outline is set forth.)

Blue in the Face
09-09-2017, 07:28 PM
Not sure it will stand legally, checking on the equifax website if you were impacted and accepting their "free" protection apparently also opts you out of participating in a class action lawsuit.
That was a misunderstanding which Equifax has clarified - taking the protection does not waive any rights to pursue a claim regarding this breach.

dudog84
09-09-2017, 10:10 PM
No, you responded to Rich's post where Rich quoted me and asked me a question about my statement regarding terrorism.

http://forums.dukebasketballreport.com/forums/showthread.php?40430-Equifax-was-hacked-143-million-records-exposed&p=999627#post999627

I truly have tried to keep this very simple. Not sure how you got so easily lost (assuming you actually did).

My goodness. How kind of you to provide the citation for your error. Your posts would be laughable if they didn’t insult my knowledge of my industry and the integrity of my business by blatantly misstating facts.

Your post was wide-ranging, from terrorism to financial Armageddon to finishing with how individuals could wake up with no money in their bank accounts, but you were prepared and others should likewise prepare themselves. The entirety of Rich’s response was “How does one prepare for that other than by hoarding cash in one's home?” I won’t waste my time giving you the definition of what “one” is. But by no stretch of the imagination was he asking you about terrorism. To state so is to be deliberately misleading (at best).

I am not the simpleton here. And I am most certainly not lost.



So, your main competitor has made billions of dollars in profit selling "personal protection"? That's an extraordinary profit margin.


Why do you feel the need to "attempt to not appear as a shill"?

Once again, you're being deliberately misleading (once again, at best). Please show me where I stated they were making "billions of dollars in profit". Hyperbole is annoying to begin with, and when done while misusing another's statements it goes beyond the pale. Anyway, my competitor had revenue of almost $600 million a couple of years ago. That’s about $750,000/employee (I just spot checked a major bank and they make about $300,000/employee…but with hundreds (thousands) of branches their infrastructure costs are much greater…And yes that is probably overly simplified, but identity theft protection marketers are making some coin). The executives that made the decisions are making a very pretty penny, and I’m sure the company paid the fine.

I don’t think they needed to use misleading advertising to make a lot of money. I couldn’t live with it. But for many it’s a balance sheet question when they know they will not be going to jail. And any time they do serve will not be in San Quentin.


I do not believe DBR boards are a place to promote one’s business. Yes, the company I represent has an identity theft protection product and that’s why I tried to be very careful with what I wrote. In fact I said diligence was the key. A service MAY be part of that diligence. Your original post threw a fire bomb of fear into the crowd (Terrorism! Financial Catastrophe! You will wake up with no money!) without providing a smidgen of information. I informed Rich (and others) that their banking deposits are safe with the caveat that banks have 30 days to replace their money. There are certainly lots of concerns in the internet age. But if people are diligent they will not be wiped out personally.

PackMan97
09-10-2017, 09:30 AM
You will wake up with no money!

Many of us have been "prepping" for this day our entire lives! Finally, something I'm ready for :)

Jeffrey
09-11-2017, 10:03 AM
My goodness. How kind of you to provide the citation for your error. Your posts would be laughable if they didn’t insult my knowledge of my industry and the integrity of my business by blatantly misstating facts.

Your post was wide-ranging, from terrorism to financial Armageddon to finishing with how individuals could wake up with no money in their bank accounts, but you were prepared and others should likewise prepare themselves. The entirety of Rich’s response was “How does one prepare for that other than by hoarding cash in one's home?” I won’t waste my time giving you the definition of what “one” is. But by no stretch of the imagination was he asking you about terrorism. To state so is to be deliberately misleading (at best).

I am not the simpleton here. And I am most certainly not lost.




Once again, you're being deliberately misleading (once again, at best). Please show me where I stated they were making "billions of dollars in profit". Hyperbole is annoying to begin with, and when done while misusing another's statements it goes beyond the pale. Anyway, my competitor had revenue of almost $600 million a couple of years ago. That’s about $750,000/employee (I just spot checked a major bank and they make about $300,000/employee…but with hundreds (thousands) of branches their infrastructure costs are much greater…And yes that is probably overly simplified, but identity theft protection marketers are making some coin). The executives that made the decisions are making a very pretty penny, and I’m sure the company paid the fine.

I don’t think they needed to use misleading advertising to make a lot of money. I couldn’t live with it. But for many it’s a balance sheet question when they know they will not be going to jail. And any time they do serve will not be in San Quentin.


I do not believe DBR boards are a place to promote one’s business. Yes, the company I represent has an identity theft protection product and that’s why I tried to be very careful with what I wrote. In fact I said diligence was the key. A service MAY be part of that diligence. Your original post threw a fire bomb of fear into the crowd (Terrorism! Financial Catastrophe! You will wake up with no money!) without providing a smidgen of information. I informed Rich (and others) that their banking deposits are safe with the caveat that banks have 30 days to replace their money. There are certainly lots of concerns in the internet age. But if people are diligent they will not be wiped out personally.

Again.... Why do you feel the need to "attempt to not appear as a shill"?

Jeffrey
09-11-2017, 02:34 PM
The following article is useful information for protecting yourself from the OT. It also clearly explains "why you don’t need to buy ID-theft protection".

https://www.consumerreports.org/cro/magazine/2013/01/don-t-get-taken-guarding-your-id/index.htm

It adds up, "About 50 million U.S. consumers spent $3.5 billion in 2010 to buy products that are claimed to protect their identity."

budwom
09-11-2017, 04:53 PM
I have an ultra low tech tale about "security" from around 1990 or so. Back then I traveled a lot on business, and (pre internetz) I paid something like $40/yr for American Express's Credit Card Registry.
You filled out a paper form with all your credit card numbers/accounts, and you got little stickers to put on each card. If you lost your wallet, you'd just call AmEx and they'd cancel all the cards immediately.
Or so they said. Convenient if you're on the road....

After several years in this program, I decided maybe it was time to update my list (omit the old cards, etc). I called AmEx, and asked them to tell me what cards I had listed. Much hemming and
hawing ensued, said they couldn't tell me, would have to "research" the request. Hm I said, if I told you my wallet was stolen, what cards would you cancel?
After much more inquiry, it turned out they could not tell me AT ALL which cards they had "covered." Somehow all the records were on ultra poor microfiche, and they
literally couldn't tell me anything, as the records were completely illegible.

I asked for my money back for all the years they said I was paying for "protection," they said no, I said will you reconsider if I tell you my next call is to the Wall St. Journal (they love that
kind of stuff), and voila, money reimbursed from totally useless AmEx protection program.

dudog84
09-13-2017, 09:22 PM
Scathing article from Bloomberg:

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2017-09-11/the-category-5-equifax-hurricane

I've scanned the Equifax free protection. It's mostly monitoring and reimbursements for your time. Hey, they'll reimburse you for legal fees up to $125/hour. Anyone know an attorney that works for that?

You have to think about identity theft protection like insurance, and know what you're paying for. Coverage, deductibles, pre-existing conditions, etc. Anyone that tells you they can prevent identity theft is lying to you. But it's like house (or any other kind of) insurance...the insurance company can't stop the hurricane from hitting your house, you want them to clean up the mess afterward. Not have you be roofer, drywaller, carpet installer, etc. and get reimbursed for your time and materials afterward.

As with everything in life, there are risks. How to deal with them are personal decisions. Literally 2 weeks ago I had somebody complain to me about the cost of flood insurance (she also doesn't like being forced to buy health insurance). Wanted an equity loan and couldn't get one without flood insurance. Yesterday I got a text that Irma got her, her cherrywood floor (and other stuff) is ruined.

PackMan97
09-14-2017, 08:59 AM
Hey, they'll reimburse you for legal fees up to $125/hour. Anyone know an attorney that works for that?

My attorney works for $0/hr....is $125 a little or a lot?

Indoor66
09-14-2017, 09:11 AM
$125 exceeds the value of some I have dealt with.

Jeffrey
09-14-2017, 10:46 AM
$125 exceeds the value of some I have dealt with.

Yep, by $125.

Lord Ash
09-14-2017, 11:03 AM
Can a relatively dumb person ask a question...?

If I've never knowingly had any interaction with Equifax, do I still have to worry?

Any guidance for a clueless fellow is more than welcome:D

Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15
09-14-2017, 11:10 AM
Can a relatively dumb person ask a question...?

If I've never knowingly had any interaction with Equifax, do I still have to worry?

Any guidance for a clueless fellow is more than welcome:D

My understanding is "no, you are still at risk." Unless you have never applied for a mortgage, car loan, credit card, or bank account.

Equifax has files on all of us.

Lord Ash
09-14-2017, 11:12 AM
Great, that's what I figured, thanks!

budwom
09-14-2017, 11:13 AM
Can a relatively dumb person ask a question...?

If I've never knowingly had any interaction with Equifax, do I still have to worry?

Any guidance for a clueless fellow is more than welcome:D

Ha, you may not know about them, but they know a shirtload about you. In a nutshell, they are one of the three major US credit bureaus....and are generally aware of
any loan, credit card, mortgage, (even applications) you've had....every time you apply for a loan or credit card, the lending institution checks with one of these three jackals
to see what you've been up to. They each have numerical scores for you. If you and Ted Kaczynski have been in the woods together without ever taking out a loan or credit card, you could be in the clear. Guessing that's not too likely, your Lordship!

aimo
09-14-2017, 11:15 AM
Ha, you may not know about them, but they know a shirtload about you. In a nutshell, they are one of the three major US credit bureaus...and are generally aware of
any loan, credit card, mortgage, (even applications) you've had...every time you apply for a loan or credit card, the lending institution checks with one of these three jackals
to see what you've been up to. They each have numerical scores for you. If you and Ted Kaczynski have been in the woods together without ever taking out a loan or credit card, you could be in the clear. Guessing that's not too likely, your Lordship!

Having this same conversation with my brother, trying to convince him that, yes!, this does in fact affect you.

davekay1971
09-14-2017, 12:25 PM
Having this same conversation with my brother, trying to convince him that, yes!, this does in fact affect you.

Yep. We've never knowingly interacted with Equifax. My wife checked their website and, sure enough, our records "may have been compromised". I haven't yet found an alter-ego to be shipping Rolexes to Mumbai or Moscow, but evidently it can now happen 👍🏻

In retrospect I maybe should have taken that Kenyan prince up on his offer to ship me a few millions dollars worth of diamonds in exchange for my bank account info...

Lord Ash
09-14-2017, 12:28 PM
Ha, you may not know about them, but they know a shirtload about you. In a nutshell, they are one of the three major US credit bureaus...and are generally aware of
any loan, credit card, mortgage, (even applications) you've had...every time you apply for a loan or credit card, the lending institution checks with one of these three jackals
to see what you've been up to. They each have numerical scores for you. If you and Ted Kaczynski have been in the woods together without ever taking out a loan or credit card, you could be in the clear. Guessing that's not too likely, your Lordship!

Shame, I was SO close... no mortgages, no loans, but one credit card. SOBs!

Jeffrey
09-14-2017, 12:30 PM
Having this same conversation with my brother, trying to convince him that, yes!, this does in fact affect you.

IMO, this is the worst financial data breach in U.S. history. Heartland affected almost as many Americans (~130 million), but it did not expose as much personal information (mostly only debit and credit card numbers). Unfortunately, the Equifax breach included names, addresses, dates of birth, social security numbers, and even some driver's license numbers. That's all the information you need to borrow (under another person's name) from many financial institutions. As a result, financial institutions would be wise to, at least, demand proof of income (IMO, they always should have) in their online lending process. They would also be prudent to strengthen their online account opening process.

Jeffrey
09-14-2017, 12:37 PM
Shame, I was SO close... no mortgages, no loans, but one credit card. SOBs!

FWIW, my compliments!

dudog84
09-14-2017, 01:11 PM
Will isn't this special? Equifax could have fixed the hole 2 months before the hack:

https://www.usatoday.com/story/money/2017/09/14/equifax-identity-theft-hackers-apache-struts/665100001/

Those with a poor view of corporate America might think that this was a way to get millions of people hooked on their lousy identity theft protection so that they would feel compelled to start paying for it in a year. Take the stock hit now (and hey, some execs didn't even take that), and make loads later because Americans have a notoriously short memory. Besides, you as an individual consumer don't employ/hire/use Equifax. Most people probably don't even know how the 3 reporting agencies work.

Channing
09-14-2017, 02:44 PM
fwiw our local radio consumer guru, Clark Howard, has been preaching about freezing your credit for a long time. I've did it years ago and have never had much of an issue unfreezing - whether for a mortgage, refi, car purchase, etc. Whenever you unfreeze there is an option for your credit to automatically refreeze after a period of time (say, 4 hours) so that you don't have to remember to go back and do it again.

duke79
09-14-2017, 03:19 PM
I have heard and read that one course of action to deal with the issue is to request a Credit Freeze with the three main credit bureaus. Clark Howard, Consumer Credit commentator has this on his website. (http://clark.com/personal-finance-credit/equifax-free-credit-monitoring-data-breach-dont-sign-up/?utm_medium=rare-america&utm_source=facebook&utm_campaign=organic-social&utm_content=rare-clark) It provides links all of the procedures for all the credit bureaus and details the procedures, issues and consequences. I recommend a review. It is painless and may be quite helpful. (Move down about one screen on the website and the specific outline is set forth.)


The following article is useful information for protecting yourself from the OT. It also clearly explains "why you don’t need to buy ID-theft protection".

https://www.consumerreports.org/cro/magazine/2013/01/don-t-get-taken-guarding-your-id/index.htm

It adds up, "About 50 million U.S. consumers spent $3.5 billion in 2010 to buy products that are claimed to protect their identity."


fwiw our local radio consumer guru, Clark Howard, has been preaching about freezing your credit for a long time. I've did it years ago and have never had much of an issue unfreezing - whether for a mortgage, refi, car purchase, etc. Whenever you unfreeze there is an option for your credit to automatically refreeze after a period of time (say, 4 hours) so that you don't have to remember to go back and do it again.

Yea, my wife and I (and our college-age daughter) just mailed off (certified mail, return receipt requested) a letter for each of us to the three main credit reporting companies (with proof of ID - copy of driver's license), asking that they freeze our credit. According to Clark Howard - cited above - this is the best strategy for dealing with this or any other breach of personal information. Allegedly, a thief who gets your personal information can not open a credit account (credit card, loan, etc) with your name and SSN. Hopefully, this will work to prevent fraud but the problem is that the potential thief, if they have your data, will have it forever, so you will have to be vigilant for the rest of your life (in theory). I'm in favor, if the hackers are ever caught, of giving them the death penalty.

budwom
09-14-2017, 03:27 PM
IMO, this is the worst financial data breach in U.S. history. Heartland affected almost as many Americans (~130 million), but it did not expose as much personal information (mostly only debit and credit card numbers). Unfortunately, the Equifax breach included names, addresses, dates of birth, social security numbers, and even some driver's license numbers. That's all the information you need to borrow (under another person's name) from many financial institutions. As a result, financial institutions would be wise to, at least, demand proof of income (IMO, they always should have) in their online lending process. They would also be prudent to strengthen their online account opening process.

yes, as a former bank geek, it seems apparent to me that new standards will very soon be required for lenders with all this data floating around...with names, addresses and social security numbers compromised, some other requirement needs to be added to the mix.

I'm waiting for the dust to clear before I act, since I have no intention of getting any new loans or cards....

Jeffrey
09-14-2017, 03:50 PM
I'm in favor, if the hackers are ever caught, of giving them the death penalty.

Unfortunately, they would probably end up serving less than 5 years, if it's their first felony conviction. And, I'd give you even odds they're not even on U.S. soil.

The good news is when they get loans in other people's names, it's hard to get the proceeds (loan disbursals) converted to cash or their bank accounts. This is why they need to find suckers to cash these loan disbursal checks. Lonely, foolish, and/or greedy people are their normal targets.

Jeffrey
09-14-2017, 04:13 PM
yes, as a former bank geek, it seems apparent to me that new standards will very soon be required for lenders with all this data floating around...with names, addresses and social security numbers compromised, some other requirement needs to be added to the mix.


I'll try to keep this short, since I could write for hours about this issue.

1. Regulators are always reactive and usually years behind problems and concerns. This will get massive attention, so give them 2-6 months to do what should take 2-6 hours.

2. IMO, loans should not be made without current proof of income. Billions of dollars worth of these loans will continue to be made annually, regardless of this event.

3. IMO, the first thing regulators should do is address new accounts. Most of these bogus loans will be made somewhere the individual has never banked.

4. The next 3 year trend will be towards less regulation, not more. The regulators should emphasize current tools like the Bank Secrecy Act.

Jeffrey
09-14-2017, 04:21 PM
Wonder how many years the lawsuits will last?

https://www.cnbc.com/2017/09/14/equifax-used-admin-for-the-login-and-password-of-a-non-us-database.html

Wonder how many weeks the CEO will last?

duke79
09-14-2017, 04:33 PM
Unfortunately, they would probably end up serving less than 5 years, if it's their first felony conviction. And, I'd give you even odds they're not even on U.S. soil.

The good news is when they get loans in other people's names, it's hard to get the proceeds (loan disbursals) converted to cash or their bank accounts. This is why they need to find suckers to cash these loan disbursal checks. Lonely, foolish, and/or greedy people are their normal targets.

Yea, I was only half serious.....but I do think we need to be very aggressive about going after the perpetrators of these frauds and giving them the maximum punishment, if caught (and I'm sure most of them are not on US soil that complicates the whole process). I would also guess that given the amount of money that can made from these frauds, that there is almost endless number of crooks around the world who will try to hack into accounts and steal money. I'm not sure that any sort of potential punishment will deter them.

duke79
09-14-2017, 04:34 PM
Wonder how many years the lawsuits will last?

https://www.cnbc.com/2017/09/14/equifax-used-admin-for-the-login-and-password-of-a-non-us-database.html

Wonder how many weeks the CEO will last?

LOL, Jim Cramer was calling for the CEO's head this morning on CNBC. My guess he'll (not sure if it is a male?) be gone by the end of the week.

dudog84
09-14-2017, 05:05 PM
Too many people are overly concerned about financial identity theft. As I stated up-thread, with some diligence financial losses will be very limited. And it may take up a lot of your time and give you headaches, but cash out of pocket will be minimal. Of course, they can also wreck your credit which will lead to migraines.

Which brings me to medical identity theft. A nearly 5-year-old Consumer Reports article linked above pooh-poohed the idea of identity theft protection, and I will agree with the article that many of the services are nearly worthless. But here's Consumer Reports last year on medical identity theft:

https://www.consumerreports.org/medical-identity-theft/medical-identity-theft/

The Equifax free monitoring will not catch this, and most surely will do nothing to fix it. There's just so many ways that identity theft can screw up your life. There's also your driver's license, etc.

On the plus side, the Equifax hack won't affect your kids. That's a whole 'nother ball of wax.

JasonEvans
09-14-2017, 05:07 PM
LOL, Jim Cramer was calling for the CEO's head this morning on CNBC. My guess he'll (not sure if it is a male?) be gone by the end of the week.

The CIO too. In truth, it is likely the CIO who was most negligent here as I doubt the CEO knew all that much about the specifics of the software security measures that company takes. The news that the hack was done via an Apache hole that was discovered months ago and that a patch was offered but Equifax did not use it is borderline criminal conduct on the part of the Equifax IT folks.

Jeffrey
09-14-2017, 06:52 PM
I doubt the CEO knew all that much about the specifics of the software security measures that company takes.

Given it's basically a database management company, I would expect the CEO to know a lot about their database security measures. However, it appears you're correct.

Either way, IMO, the CEO failed. I certainly agree with you, the CIO also failed.

sagegrouse
09-14-2017, 09:50 PM
The CIO too. In truth, it is likely the CIO who was most negligent here as I doubt the CEO knew all that much about the specifics of the software security measures that company takes. The news that the hack was done via an Apache hole that was discovered months ago and that a patch was offered but Equifax did not use it is borderline criminal conduct on the part of the Equifax IT folks.

I dunno, Jason. He should have asked for a briefing every week and data every day. In his own mind he should remember what he was told about penetration attempts and measures to ward off such threats. What else would you worry about as CEO of Equifax, which is a big data company?

moonpie23
09-14-2017, 11:14 PM
frankly, i have a problem with a company that collects somewhat private information from your personal financial dealings, and then uses that information to form some sort of accepted "score" on you......then, selling that score...

budwom
09-15-2017, 08:04 AM
Wonder how many years the lawsuits will last?

https://www.cnbc.com/2017/09/14/equifax-used-admin-for-the-login-and-password-of-a-non-us-database.html

Wonder how many weeks the CEO will last?

I'm attending a nice reception tomorrow and the Vermont Attorney General will be there, I've got to chat him up. He's already noted that he thinks IdiotFax violated Vermont law by sitting on
the info about the theft without informing our wee state as they should have. Many political points to be gained by going after jackals like these.

Jeffrey
09-15-2017, 10:38 AM
I'm attending a nice reception tomorrow and the Vermont Attorney General will be there, I've got to chat him up. He's already noted that he thinks IdiotFax violated Vermont law by sitting on
the info about the theft without informing our wee state as they should have. Many political points to be gained by going after jackals like these.

Strongly agree! I suspect every state's AG will eventually go after Equifax. There's really no true AG downside to attacking. The credit bureaus high inaccuracy rates have been harming their constituents for many years. IMO, Equifax is not positioned for mercy.

I suspect this will ultimately cost Equifax $250-500 million. Sounds rather substantial, but it's less than $4 per victim.

Jeffrey
09-15-2017, 06:55 PM
Looks like the CEO is trying to survive:

https://www.cnbc.com/2017/09/15/equifax-security-and-information-executives-to-retire-dj-reports.html

Good luck!

fuse
09-15-2017, 07:54 PM
At the risk of offending music majors everywhere, it is starting to surface that the CISO for Equifax may have been underqualified.

(For the record, my best musical talent is listening, I have much respect for musically talented people.)

sagegrouse
09-16-2017, 06:57 AM
Some Money Quotes from article on NBCNews.com:


Equifax's feet are being held to the fire — and that fire keeps getting higher.

The beleaguered company announced Friday evening that its chief information officer and chief security officer had retired. A statement did not name the senior executives but said Mark Rohrwasser would serve as interim CIO and Russ Ayres would be interim CSO.

Are these enough?


"Not at all," Ed Mierzwinski, Senior Fellow for U.S. PIRG, a Washington-based advocacy group, told NBC News in an email. "These are calculated sacrifices at a company with a troubled record."

"All the credit bureaus have a troubled culture because consumers do not regulate their markets," he added. "You cannot vote with your feet. They've only just begun to be reined in under the CFPB after 40 years of sneering at consumers and the FTC."

devil84
09-16-2017, 09:39 AM
At the risk of offending music majors everywhere, it is starting to surface that the CISO for Equifax may have been underqualified.

(For the record, my best musical talent is listening, I have much respect for musically talented people.)

Quite frankly, for someone who is 59, there was absolutely no possibility of majoring in cyber security. A computer science degree for nearly anyone in a CIO position (usually meaning 15-20 years of experience or more) is sorely outdated with as quickly as the industry changes. It's all in what you keep learning after you get out of school. And with the tech boom in the 80s, a lot of subject matter experts began programming the new PCs, then becoming technology experts for their field.

I say this as double major in design (art) and history. I've written three programming books, spoken at major conferences, and I'm well respected in my field. The art major made me extremely valuable with the advent of graphical user interfaces while the history major ensured that I could research lots of information and had better than average writing skills. Many, if not most of the speakers and authors that are my peers are computer science majors. And IIRC, I'm not the only art major/computer programmer on DBR. Most of the non-computer science majors in a tech field bring something else to the table that complements and elevates the entire team.

I say this not to start a debate about majors (we've done that to death here). I say this to note that your degrees do not necessarily qualify you for your job. I've worked with incompetent people who have multiple advanced degrees in their field. I've also worked with people who have no degree at all and are exceptionally qualified.

That's also not to say this CIO was totally qualified, either. But I'd like to see some other evidence than, "she's a music major." That argument just doesn't work in technology.

[/rant] Sorry, fuse, I just had to get this off my chest. You must be fairly young and went to school after computer science majors became really popular, or you're working in a career that requires substantial degrees.

budwom
09-16-2017, 11:30 AM
^i'll second that....my degree was in history (later an mba) but many of the people i worked with thought I was an electrical engineer based on what I did for work for 25 years.

fuse
09-16-2017, 10:35 PM
To both devil84 and budwom, I'll say I appreciate and support your perspectives.
We're all learning and growing (hopefully), and I should not have propogated a convenient media narrative.

budwom
09-17-2017, 11:28 AM
To both devil84 and budwom, I'll say I appreciate and support your perspectives.
We're all learning and growing (hopefully), and I should not have propogated a convenient media narrative.

and of course it could also be true those guys ARE completely unqualified, so the original assertion could be correct. I bet we'll hear more...

Jeffrey
09-18-2017, 12:25 PM
and of course it could also be true those guys ARE completely unqualified, so the original assertion could be correct. I bet we'll hear more...

Are you guys questioning the qualifications of the two terminated employees?

devil84
09-18-2017, 01:25 PM
Are you guys questioning the qualifications of the two terminated employees?

No.

One poster cited a source that noted that the CIO was unqualified because she has a music degree. There are many people who are very successful in technology who possess non-technical majors (including me), and in the tech sector, particularly those who have 20+ years of experience in their field, the choice of major has no bearing on whether one is qualified.

Those of us questioning that article are simply asking for evidence of a lack of qualifications other than "she's a music major."

Indoor66
09-18-2017, 02:20 PM
Plenty of degreed people are not skilled in their field.

PackMan97
09-18-2017, 02:25 PM
At the risk of offending music majors everywhere, it is starting to surface that the CISO for Equifax may have been underqualified.

(For the record, my best musical talent is listening, I have much respect for musically talented people.)

This statement should offend everyone, everywhere.

First, at her age, majoring in computer science would have been rare, let alone any thought to network security.
Second, she has nearly two decades of relevant cyber security experience.
Third, the tech industry is notorious for taking majors of all walks of life because the more important skill is to solve problems that no one has seen before.

Whether she was or was not qualified has ZERO to do with her major for 35 years ago.

As a computer profressional with 20 years of experience, some of my best coworkers have been history majors, marine biology majors, english majors and of course, math and computer science majors. I've found very little evidence that being a computer major is college fills one with the knowledge needed to do the job after a few years under your belt. It might help as a new hire without experience, but eventually your ability to learn, adapt and solve problems is the most important skill.

Jeffrey
09-18-2017, 03:44 PM
Plenty of degreed people are not skilled in their field.

So many roads to the Peter Principle.

duke74
09-18-2017, 06:53 PM
For those of us who teach ethics and/or ERM, this (and the Wells Fargo saga) these are the gifts that just keep on giving. On behalf of my colleagues in the Academy, thank you!

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2017-09-18/equifax-is-said-to-suffer-a-hack-earlier-than-the-date-disclosed?utm_campaign=news&utm_medium=bd&utm_source=applenews

Jeffrey
09-19-2017, 11:30 AM
For those of us who teach ethics and/or ERM, this (and the Wells Fargo saga) these are the gifts that just keep on giving. On behalf of my colleagues in the Academy, thank you!


IMO, society deserves much of the blame. Look at a partial list of what Wells Fargo has done just since 2008:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wells_Fargo#Controversies

What has society done to end this terrible behavior? Has society refused to re-elect DAs who have not investigated and prosecuted these criminals?

Maybe, I'm asking too much from society. Let's make it relatively simple and easy. Has society closed most of their legitimate accounts at Wells Fargo or do 1 in 3 American households still bank at Wells?

elvis14
09-19-2017, 04:09 PM
IMO, society deserves much of the blame. Look at a partial list of what Wells Fargo has done just since 2008:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wells_Fargo#Controversies

What has society done to end this terrible behavior? Has society refused to re-elect DAs who have not investigated and prosecuted these criminals?

Maybe, I'm asking too much from society. Let's make it relatively simple and easy. Has society closed most of their legitimate accounts at Wells Fargo or do 1 in 3 American households still bank at Wells?

I suspect that most people have no idea what Wells Fargo has done. They vaguely remember seeing a headline about something but since it didn't seem to affect them directly (as far as they could tell), they moved on. Since it wasn't ratings popping news, the coverage wasn't what you'd see for say a Grayson Allen on the court skirmish.

Jeffrey
09-19-2017, 04:58 PM
I suspect that most people have no idea what Wells Fargo has done. They vaguely remember seeing a headline about something but since it didn't seem to affect them directly (as far as they could tell), they moved on. Since it wasn't ratings popping news, the coverage wasn't what you'd see for say a Grayson Allen on the court skirmish.

Exactly! Society would rather be highly critical of a young man still finding himself, than a bunch of elite criminals stealing millions and possibly billions. It's easy to see a kid trip someone, but it takes a little bit of effort to understand true crimes.

Turk
09-19-2017, 05:20 PM
IMO, society deserves much of the blame. Look at a partial list of what Wells Fargo has done just since 2008:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wells_Fargo#Controversies

What has society done to end this terrible behavior? Has society refused to re-elect DAs who have not investigated and prosecuted these criminals?

Maybe, I'm asking too much from society. Let's make it relatively simple and easy. Has society closed most of their legitimate accounts at Wells Fargo or do 1 in 3 American households still bank at Wells?

It's not just Wells. Any corporation that gets caught doing something illegal just agrees to a fine, admits no wrongdoing, and the people who ordered it, did it, and signed off on it go somewhere else and get paid. No matter how big the fines are, they can be written off as the cost of doing business. And it's a tough sell for DAs to go up against a battalion of corporate lawyers who can drag the matter out indefinitely and then complain about taxpayer expense.

It would be nice if we can get back to naming and shaming, perp walks, felony convictions, and incarceration in Rikers. "Give them a fair trial and then put them in front of the firing squad!"

Getting back to Equifax, I went ahead and ordered up the credit reports, and will probably go ahead and pay for credit freezes across the board.

Jeffrey
09-19-2017, 05:31 PM
It's not just Wells. Any corporation that gets caught doing something illegal just agrees to a fine, admits no wrongdoing, and the people who ordered it, did it, and signed off on it go somewhere else and get paid. No matter how big the fines are, they can be written off as the cost of doing business. And it's a tough sell for DAs to go up against a battalion of corporate lawyers who can drag the matter out indefinitely and then complain about taxpayer expense.

It would be nice if we can get back to naming and shaming, perp walks, felony convictions, and incarceration in Rikers. "Give them a fair trial and then put them in front of the firing squad!"

Getting back to Equifax, I went ahead and ordered up the credit reports, and will probably go ahead and pay for credit freezes across the board.


No doubt, it's not just Wells Fargo.

However, in the case of Wells Fargo, society could make certain Wells Fargo never harms another society member by merely closing all their Wells Fargo accounts. IMO, society is part of the problem!

Equifax is a more difficult issue to resolve.

PackMan97
09-20-2017, 12:56 PM
No doubt, it's not just Wells Fargo.

However, in the case of Wells Fargo, society could make certain Wells Fargo never harms another society member by merely closing all their Wells Fargo accounts. IMO, society is part of the problem!


AMEN! This has annoyed me to no end that retail customers still do business with these slimeballs.

CrazyNotCrazie
09-20-2017, 01:25 PM
AMEN! This has annoyed me to no end that retail customers still do business with these slimeballs.

I think this is a bit extreme. What happened at Wells Fargo was definitely wrong. But it only happened to a subset of overall customers - most people were not impacted. I can guarantee you that Wells Fargo is not the only one doing this - it was probably the most widespread, but I'm sure it also happens elsewhere.

Retail banking accounts are getting increasingly "sticky" - once you have one, it is a real pain to shift it. This is why banks spend so much time, effort and money trying to attract your business. Do you really want to spend the time to shift all of your direct deposits, auto bill pays, etc.? So unless they were personally harmed, people are not going to shift their accounts. I have not recently seen the stats on new accounts opened in the year since this became public - I am guessing they are down significantly.

budwom
09-20-2017, 01:40 PM
I think this is a bit extreme. What happened at Wells Fargo was definitely wrong. But it only happened to a subset of overall customers - most people were not impacted. I can guarantee you that Wells Fargo is not the only one doing this - it was probably the most widespread, but I'm sure it also happens elsewhere.

Retail banking accounts are getting increasingly "sticky" - once you have one, it is a real pain to shift it. This is why banks spend so much time, effort and money trying to attract your business. Do you really want to spend the time to shift all of your direct deposits, auto bill pays, etc.? So unless they were personally harmed, people are not going to shift their accounts. I have not recently seen the stats on new accounts opened in the year since this became public - I am guessing they are down significantly.

I do think Wells Fargo went a whole lot farther than a lot of other miscreant banks...a good friend (who looks at this board) owns a nice business, and amazingly Wells Fargo (his business's bank) extracted thousands of dollars from an
account for an unwanted, unnecessary service before the scheme became apparent. Pretty appalling way to deal with a long time business client. The subset of people they screwed was a pretty large subset.

PackMan97
09-20-2017, 02:03 PM
I think this is a bit extreme. What happened at Wells Fargo was definitely wrong. But it only happened to a subset of overall customers - most people were not impacted. I can guarantee you that Wells Fargo is not the only one doing this - it was probably the most widespread, but I'm sure it also happens elsewhere.

Retail banking accounts are getting increasingly "sticky" - once you have one, it is a real pain to shift it. This is why banks spend so much time, effort and money trying to attract your business. Do you really want to spend the time to shift all of your direct deposits, auto bill pays, etc.? So unless they were personally harmed, people are not going to shift their accounts. I have not recently seen the stats on new accounts opened in the year since this became public - I am guessing they are down significantly.

This is sounding too close to what a UNC apologist would say defending the actions of their athletic department. (No offense to you).

snowdenscold
09-20-2017, 02:17 PM
I think this is a bit extreme. What happened at Wells Fargo was definitely wrong. But it only happened to a subset of overall customers - most people were not impacted. I can guarantee you that Wells Fargo is not the only one doing this - it was probably the most widespread, but I'm sure it also happens elsewhere.

Retail banking accounts are getting increasingly "sticky" - once you have one, it is a real pain to shift it. This is why banks spend so much time, effort and money trying to attract your business. Do you really want to spend the time to shift all of your direct deposits, auto bill pays, etc.? So unless they were personally harmed, people are not going to shift their accounts. I have not recently seen the stats on new accounts opened in the year since this became public - I am guessing they are down significantly.

Yup, I'm still with WF, not because I particularly like them more than others, but because it would be an enormous burden at this point to try to switch. And I've told them such.

I only use them for a checking account, but everything flows through there. The number of accounts (or similar) I have that are linked up via ACH is quite large. Plus, I've had my account and routing numbers memorized for 15 years now, which comes in handy.

Jeffrey
09-20-2017, 03:57 PM
I can guarantee you that Wells Fargo is not the only one doing this - it was probably the most widespread, but I'm sure it also happens elsewhere.


Probably the most widespread? What other U.S. financial institution has created millions of fake bank and credit card accounts? At what other U.S. financial institution are you "sure it also happens"?

"Wells Fargo (WFC) now says it has found a total of up to 3.5 million potentially fake bank and credit card accounts, up from its earlier tally of approximately 2.1 million. In other words, there are two-thirds more fake accounts than previously realized."

http://money.cnn.com/2017/08/31/investing/wells-fargo-fake-accounts/index.html

Jeffrey
09-20-2017, 04:07 PM
Whoops...

http://money.cnn.com/2017/07/28/investing/wells-fargo-auto-insurance-car-loans/index.html?iid=hp-toplead-dom

"New York City Comptroller Scott Stringer, who helped lead an unsuccessful campaign to unseat Wells Fargo directors, said the latest revelation shows that the board needs to be overhauled.
"This is a full-blown scandal -- again. It's unbelievable, outrageous, sad, and yet quintessential Wells Fargo," Stringer said in a statement. Stringer manages the city's pension funds, which held about 11.5 million Wells Fargo shares as of April."

mgtr
09-20-2017, 04:08 PM
There have been mentions of freezing your credit accounts. I have had this in place for some years now, and find it effective. It would be a pain if you plan to get many loans or open many credit accounts. As an old guy, I don't really need to borrow money, so it works for me. Every few years I test the system by applying for credit -- all such attempts have been turned down by the credit reporting agencies. So, I am happy.

CrazyNotCrazie
09-20-2017, 04:43 PM
Whoops...

http://money.cnn.com/2017/07/28/investing/wells-fargo-auto-insurance-car-loans/index.html?iid=hp-toplead-dom

"New York City Comptroller Scott Stringer, who helped lead an unsuccessful campaign to unseat Wells Fargo directors, said the latest revelation shows that the board needs to be overhauled.
"This is a full-blown scandal -- again. It's unbelievable, outrageous, sad, and yet quintessential Wells Fargo," Stringer said in a statement. Stringer manages the city's pension funds, which held about 11.5 million Wells Fargo shares as of April."

Are you shorting WF stock? Big, bad banks make a very easy target for politicians to target. Again, I am not denying that Wells did something bad - they clearly did. And their offenses are likely more egregious than any other banks to date. And I could easily argue that this is symptomatic of banks becoming too big. I have spent most of my career working at mega-banks where the behavior of someone on the far side of the earth creates negative headlines and hurts my line of business - it is very frustrating. But they definitely are not alone.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2015/07/21/citibank-credit-card-fine_n_7842072.html

https://www.washingtonpost.com/business/economy/amex-to-pay-1125-million-for-violating-consumer-protection-laws/2012/10/01/fa064ae6-0bd4-11e2-a310-2363842b7057_story.html?utm_term=.a14d596ed3ab

Jeffrey
09-20-2017, 05:57 PM
Are you shorting WF stock?

No, I'm definitely not shorting WFC. I actually almost bought a sizable long position today. You're right, few Americans will bother to close their Wells Fargo accounts. I frequently wager against Americans making prudent financial decisions.

However, IMO, Wells is definitely the current bottom of the barrel. Opening approximately 3,500,000 fake accounts far exceeds their competition! That's why, IMO, shorting now is a bad call and going long is a definite consideration. How much more bad news can there be and, even if there is, who cares anymore? IMO, Americans are comfortably numb and too lazy to cause Wells serious harm.

camion
09-20-2017, 10:56 PM
No, I'm definitely not shorting WFC. I actually almost bought a sizable long position today. You're right, few Americans will bother to close their Wells Fargo accounts. I frequently wager against Americans making prudent financial decisions.

However, IMO, Wells is definitely the current bottom of the barrel. Opening approximately 3,500,000 fake accounts far exceeds their competition! That's why, IMO, shorting now is a bad call and going long is a definite consideration. How much more bad news can there be and, even if there is, who cares anymore? IMO, Americans are comfortably numb and too lazy to cause Wells serious harm.

Not that I'm considering closing a WF account, but if WF is the bottom of the barrel is there a bank with branches in the Carolinas might be considered near the top of the barrel?

devil84
09-21-2017, 09:18 AM
Not that I'm considering closing a WF account, but if WF is the bottom of the barrel is there a bank with branches in the Carolinas might be considered near the top of the barrel?

State Employees' Credit Union, if you are eligible. We switched from WF when my better half took a position in IT at SECU, and the only way to get direct deposit was to have an account with them. We've saved a lot of money on nickle and dime fees and find the whole experience much better.

We helped our son get an account at Wells Fargo when he attended Wake Forest, as that was the only ATM on campus, and we knew he'd chew up lots of ATM fees with a non-Wells Fargo account. After a while, we determined he needed his own credit card and tried to get him a card with a $400 limit. He was turned down because OUR credit as co-signers was suspect; they wouldn't answer any questions about why, which left us stunned because both our credit and our son's is really good. At the time, we were about two years into an HVAC financing through them. Needing only $6500 to pay for the unit, they gave us a $10,000 line of credit. Given that we weren't using $4000 of that (and had no way of using it, it wasn't like it was a credit card), couldn't they use that to secure the $400 card? Could we pre-pay the $400? Nope. It was an incredibly unpleasant experience. We asked SECU, and they had no problem giving our son $1000 limit without question, and were extremely pleasant and helpful. (Fortunately, our son is a really good money manager and the extra limit wasn't a temptation for him.)

As soon as he moved off campus and had access to other ATMs, we got rid of the Wells Fargo account. Another difficult and unpleasant experience. To be fair, I will say that when I had to close my mom's Wells Fargo accounts after her death, the particular branch where she banked was extremely helpful and pleasant. She still did a lot of banking in person and had been at that branch for 41 years.

weezie
09-21-2017, 09:24 AM
Not that I'm considering closing a WF account, but if WF is the bottom of the barrel is there a bank with branches in the Carolinas might be considered near the top of the barrel?


We're BBT up in VA but, of course, it's an NC based bank. They stink too, but they might not stink as bad as WF. How's that for praise? :(

Reisen
09-21-2017, 09:53 AM
Possibly the worst thing in this whole issue has been Equifax's response. This article mirrors my experience:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/get-there/wp/2017/09/19/equifax-says-its-overwhelmed-its-customers-say-they-are-getting-the-runaround/?tid=a_inl&utm_term=.778577aef8d0

It's been well over a week and I still have not received my identity theft protection enrollment link via email. This is after jumping through a half dozen hoops immediately when the news broke.

Their call center is worthless, and the agents openly admit they have no idea about the process, how it works, when the links will be sent, if any have been sent, if there is a way to resend them, etc. etc. It is amazingly pathetic.

Indoor66
09-21-2017, 09:54 AM
State Employees' Credit Union, if you are eligible. We switched from WF when my better half took a position in IT at SECU, and the only way to get direct deposit was to have an account with them. We've saved a lot of money on nickle and dime fees and find the whole experience much better.

We helped our son get an account at Wells Fargo when he attended Wake Forest, as that was the only ATM on campus, and we knew he'd chew up lots of ATM fees with a non-Wells Fargo account. After a while, we determined he needed his own credit card and tried to get him a card with a $400 limit. He was turned down because OUR credit as co-signers was suspect; they wouldn't answer any questions about why, which left us stunned because both our credit and our son's is really good. At the time, we were about two years into an HVAC financing through them. Needing only $6500 to pay for the unit, they gave us a $10,000 line of credit. Given that we weren't using $4000 of that (and had no way of using it, it wasn't like it was a credit card), couldn't they use that to secure the $400 card? Could we pre-pay the $400? Nope. It was an incredibly unpleasant experience. We asked SECU, and they had no problem giving our son $1000 limit without question, and were extremely pleasant and helpful. (Fortunately, our son is a really good money manager and the extra limit wasn't a temptation for him.)

As soon as he moved off campus and had access to other ATMs, we got rid of the Wells Fargo account. Another difficult and unpleasant experience. To be fair, I will say that when I had to close my mom's Wells Fargo accounts after her death, the particular branch where she banked was extremely helpful and pleasant. She still did a lot of banking in person and had been at that branch for 41 years.

Been with NCSECU for many years. Use it for bill pay. I haven't been in a branch in over ten years. I do it all via Internet and an occasional USPS item. Their bill pay system is flawless and they have a large electronic pay network.

I also use USAA and, locally, maintain a TD Bank account for check cashing And ATM access. I do most banking over the net now.

Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15
09-21-2017, 10:20 AM
I use WF for my business and personal accounts. Yes, corporate wide they have done some sketch ball things. But the people in my local branch are great, their customer service with Merchant Services is fantastic, and they address my concerns very quickly.

I have tried smaller banks in the past with lots of frustration. This was ten plus years ago, but their online services we're very limited. Also, twice I had a small bank get gobbled up by a big one.

WF is the devil I know, so to speak. I don't defend their practices at all, but my experiences have been very positive.

Jeffrey
09-21-2017, 10:27 AM
State Employees' Credit Union, if you are eligible.

BINGO! A financial institution's morals, ethics, and integrity are driven by the CEO and Board of Directors. SECU's long-time CEO (recently retired), Jim Blaine, is one of the true good guys! Jim was always focused on doing the right thing and never focused on his personal financial gain.

PackMan97
09-21-2017, 10:31 AM
Not that I'm considering closing a WF account, but if WF is the bottom of the barrel is there a bank with branches in the Carolinas might be considered near the top of the barrel?

As mentioned already, NCSECU is top notch.

We did our construction loan on our new house for them and they were super easy to work with and one of the few folks that allowed for a construction loan to convert to a mortgage without needing an additional refi. We also do most of our banking with them and while their web interface reminds me of something from the late 90's...it works fantastic and we've never had an issue with it. They have branches everywhere (since state employees are across the state...public schools!). In addition their ATM network is CASHPOINTS which are also all over the place. Of course, membership is an issue.

Coastal Federal is also very good with not quite as restrictive membership rules.

Jeffrey
09-21-2017, 10:50 AM
Coastal Federal is also very good with not quite as restrictive membership rules.

IMO, Coastal is substantially better than Wells, and SECU is better than Coastal.

Coastal's fees are substantial. Coastal's fee ratio (fees/assets) is 1.44% and SECU's is 0.66%. Compare those to the peer average of 1.38%.

Trying to compare those to Wells is apples and oranges. I could not state it as simply.

Jeffrey
09-21-2017, 10:57 AM
Possibly the worst thing in this whole issue has been Equifax's response. This article mirrors my experience:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/get-there/wp/2017/09/19/equifax-says-its-overwhelmed-its-customers-say-they-are-getting-the-runaround/?tid=a_inl&utm_term=.778577aef8d0

It's been well over a week and I still have not received my identity theft protection enrollment link via email. This is after jumping through a half dozen hoops immediately when the news broke.

Their call center is worthless, and the agents openly admit they have no idea about the process, how it works, when the links will be sent, if any have been sent, if there is a way to resend them, etc. etc. It is amazingly pathetic.

Be careful what you wish for.....

https://www.usatoday.com/story/tech/talkingtech/2017/09/21/equifax-support-team-sent-victims-breach-phishing-site/688188001/

Reisen
09-21-2017, 01:19 PM
Be careful what you wish for...

https://www.usatoday.com/story/tech/talkingtech/2017/09/21/equifax-support-team-sent-victims-breach-phishing-site/688188001/

Mind-blowingly stupid. The vanity URL alone was borderline negligence. Whoever approved that should be fired immediately.

Jeffrey
09-21-2017, 01:59 PM
Mind-blowingly stupid. The vanity URL alone was borderline negligence. Whoever approved that should be fired immediately.

Agreed. Equifax's problems have problems!

IMO, they need to clean house starting at the top.

JasonEvans
09-21-2017, 05:26 PM
I signed up for TrustedID for me, my wife, and my mother-in-law. Each time Equifax could only say we "may have had our records breached," without providing any kind of definitive answer. It took a couple days to sign up and then a couple more to get the verification links, but we have gotten them. Still, I'm pretty sure I don't feel at all protected as a result.

Each time I got the verification link, it directed me to a site where Equifax claimed they were confirming my identity by looking at my credit history. Ok, sounds fine. But, each time they provided me with a series of multiple choice questions (have you ever had a mortgage through any of the following companies? Did you lease a car from any of the following lenders?) and each time the answer to EVERY SINGLE ONE OF THE QUESTIONS was none of the above. It reached the point where I didn't even bother to read the questions the third time I was signing someone up -- I just knew all the questions would produce a "none of the above" response. How crazy is that? We are talking 12-out-12 questions with the exact same answer. Anyone who wanted to pretend to be me could have guessed pretty easily at the answers. I mean, why couldn't Equifax just throw in one question each time where you actually had to know something about my credit history to answer?

Everything about the way Equifax has handled this debacle feels like the least responsible and smart way to do things. I almost think they are daring the government to come shut them down.

-Jason "so awful... and if they were just honest and smart they could have handled this with relative ease" Evans

snowdenscold
09-21-2017, 05:31 PM
I signed up for TrustedID for me, my wife, and my mother-in-law. Each time Equifax could only say we "may have had our records breached," without providing any kind of definitive answer. It took a couple days to sign up and then a couple more to get the verification links, but we have gotten them. Still, I'm pretty sure I don't feel at all protected as a result.

Each time I got the verification link, it directed me to a site where Equifax claimed they were confirming my identity by looking at my credit history. Ok, sounds fine. But, each time they provided me with a series of multiple choice questions (have you ever had a mortgage through any of the following companies? Did you lease a car from any of the following lenders?) and each time the answer to EVERY SINGLE ONE OF THE QUESTIONS was none of the above. It reached the point where I didn't even bother to read the questions the third time I was signing someone up -- I just knew all the questions would produce a "none of the above" response. How crazy is that? We are talking 12-out-12 questions with the exact same answer. Anyone who wanted to pretend to be me could have guessed pretty easily at the answers. I mean, why couldn't Equifax just throw in one question each time where you actually had to know something about my credit history to answer?

Everything about the way Equifax has handled this debacle feels like the least responsible and smart way to do things. I almost think they are daring the government to come shut them down.

-Jason "so awful... and if they were just honest and smart they could have handled this with relative ease" Evans

That is a bit odd - whenever I've done those "prove your identity" questions based on what they can pull from credit history, usually just 1 or 2 out of 4 might be "none of the above". NOTA has certainly been an answer every time, but never all of the answers for that instance.

Jeffrey
09-21-2017, 06:42 PM
I almost think they are daring the government to come shut them down.


Trust me, the U.S. Government will do everything possible not to shut them down. Equifax knows it will not happen. The U.S. Government refused to even regulate credit bureaus until 2012!

Watch, the U.S. Government/CFPB will ultimately fine Equifax less than $4 (probably $2) for each affected U.S. citizen! Your good ole' government, hardly at work, starting in 2012.

Like I told you, what I said, steal your face right off your head!

budwom
09-22-2017, 07:43 AM
Vermont and some other states working on legislation to ban credit agencies from charging $ for putting freezes on accounts. Why should we pay for their incompetence?

Jeffrey
09-22-2017, 10:12 AM
Why should we pay for their incompetence?

How else can Equifax's CEO make $12 million a year? He's not capable of playing in the NBA.

snowdenscold
09-22-2017, 03:29 PM
Now I'm confused. After signing up for their monitoring or whatever it was several days ago, I just now got an email saying I need to take the final steps in enrollment by verifying my identity.

So after going to yet a 3rd URL (trustedidpremier.com - which appears to be legit) to verify and activate, they texted me a passcode, and upon entering it, the site said my identity couldn't be verified, so they would need to ask me more questions.

But then the next page said I had already been enrolled, so there was no further action needed on my part.

Wheeee... :confused:

Rich
09-22-2017, 06:00 PM
I'm tired of all this. I went to all three credit bureaus and froze my credit. As far as I've read, that may be the only solution other than continuously tracking credit requests as they come in and making sure they're legitimate. I'm not looking forward to having to (and I'm not even sure of the process to) thaw them next time I'm looking to open a bank account or get a new credit card, but I'll cross that bridge when I get to it.

CrazyNotCrazie
09-26-2017, 09:30 AM
Whoever had September 26 in the Equifax CEO resignation pool is the big winner:

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/09/26/business/equifax-ceo.html?hp&action=click&pgtype=Homepage&clickSource=story-heading&module=first-column-region&region=top-news&WT.nav=top-news&_r=0

Now the question is how much of his pay can be clawed back.

Jeffrey
09-26-2017, 10:30 AM
Whoever had September 26 in the Equifax CEO resignation pool is the big winner:

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/09/26/business/equifax-ceo.html?hp&action=click&pgtype=Homepage&clickSource=story-heading&module=first-column-region&region=top-news&WT.nav=top-news&_r=0

Now the question is how much of his pay can be clawed back.

No worries, he will qualify for unemployment. Forced resignation = termination.

OTOH, I doubt this will result in material clawbacks. Of course, I'm assuming he negotiated an employment contract in his best interest. It's not that hard to accomplish with most Boards these days.

dudog84
10-05-2017, 06:13 PM
Equifax admits more were affected by hack:

https://www.theinquirer.net/inquirer/news/3018466/equifax-admits-25-million-additional-us-citizens-may-have-been-caught-up-in-data-breach

Don’t know where they are getting these numbers, because to be clear, virtually every adult in this country will have been exposed. Unless you’ve been indigent your entire life, you have an Equifax record.

And while freezing your credit might give you the warm fuzzies, it really doesn’t do much. If a credit card is opened fraudulently in your name, and you let them know as soon as you become aware of it, you have zero liability. Diligence. And I was pretty sure that many banks don’t do a credit check when opening an account, which I confirmed with my local banker last week. She said some banks even allow you to open an account online.

But most importantly, freezing your credit does not protect you from someone filing a tax return or getting a job in your name/SSN:

https://www.today.com/money/identity-thieves-gear-steal-your-tax-refund-2D11910916

It doesn’t protect you from medical identity theft:

https://www.consumerreports.org/medical-identity-theft/medical-identity-theft/

It doesn’t protect your children:

https://mobile.nytimes.com/2015/04/18/your-money/a-childs-vulnerability-to-identity-theft.html?referrer&_r=0

It doesn’t protect you from someone getting a driver’s license in your name and impersonating you while they do who knows what, etc. etc.

Jeffrey
03-14-2018, 11:23 AM
Finally....

https://www.cnbc.com/2018/03/14/former-equifax-executive-charged-with-insider-trading-ahead-of-data-breach.html

moonpie23
03-14-2018, 11:44 AM
it won't matter unless he does some time.....

Jeffrey
03-14-2018, 12:01 PM
it won't matter unless he does some time....

It's good for the economy. His lawyer's wife just went on a major shopping spree.

dudog84
03-14-2018, 12:05 PM
it won't matter unless he does some time....

...his name's not Martha...

From the article:

"Ying is not one of the Equifax executives who attracted attention for disclosing they had sold $1.8 million of stock just days after the company discovered security issues and weeks before it announced the intrustion.

In November, a special committee of Equifax's board found that the sales, by four executives, were not improper and that none of them knew about the security breach at the time of the sales."

Yeah right.

Jeffrey
06-28-2018, 12:18 PM
Add another one to the list.....

https://www.cnbc.com/2018/06/28/former-equifax-software-development-manager-charged-with-insider-tradi.html

YmoBeThere
06-30-2018, 07:12 AM
Probably straying* into PPB territory, but interesting that Ying and Bonthu have been charged, Gamble, Loughran, Ploder have not been so far.

*Okay maybe leaping into it?

HereBeforeCoachK
06-30-2018, 07:05 PM
I fully understand the need to have credit underwriting, but the dependence on the three major credit reporting agencies is absurd. The rules of the scoring are convoluted, sometimes flat out stupid, and they do make mistakes. They had four errors equalling up to 96 points worth of mistakes on my score...took me a few months to unravel it. As I'm sure everybody here knows, something close to 100 point change is huge on a credit score.

It's so hilarious that they couldn't even keep their info secure. Or our info that is. I find them incompetent, and this kind of proves it.

Indoor66
06-30-2018, 08:20 PM
I fully understand the need to have credit underwriting, but the dependence on the three major credit reporting agencies is absurd. The rules of the scoring are convoluted, sometimes flat out stupid, and they do make mistakes. They had four errors equalling up to 96 points worth of mistakes on my score...took me a few months to unravel it. As I'm sure everybody here knows, something close to 100 point change is huge on a credit score.

It's so hilarious that they couldn't even keep their info secure. Or our info that is. I find them incompetent, and this kind of proves it.

What alternative method of credit evaluation do you suggest? They serve a necessary information source in dealing with matters that require relevant information. The law provides each of us access to each of the three reports on an annual basis. I check mine and have had no difficulty correcting errors.

Jeffrey
07-02-2018, 11:56 AM
I fully understand the need to have credit underwriting, but the dependence on the three major credit reporting agencies is absurd. The rules of the scoring are convoluted, sometimes flat out stupid, and they do make mistakes. They had four errors equalling up to 96 points worth of mistakes on my score...took me a few months to unravel it. As I'm sure everybody here knows, something close to 100 point change is huge on a credit score.

It's so hilarious that they couldn't even keep their info secure. Or our info that is. I find them incompetent, and this kind of proves it.

They're highly incompetent, but necessary. If the 5 largest US banks created an exclusive database, then all other US banks would be in serious trouble.

Jeffrey
07-02-2018, 11:57 AM
Probably straying* into PPB territory, but interesting that Ying and Bonthu have been charged, Gamble, Loughran, Ploder have not been so far.

*Okay maybe leaping into it?

The man with deeper pockets is harder to convict.

IMO, Angelo Mozilo should have gone to prison for many years.

HereBeforeCoachK
07-04-2018, 04:54 PM
They're highly incompetent, but necessary. If the 5 largest US banks created an exclusive database, then all other US banks would be in serious trouble.

Well I would agree something is necessary for the reasons you mentioned. That said, the rules are convoluted - for example, paying off your mortgage can HURT your score under some circumstances. What they measure is a game, a puzzle, but only has a passing relevance to actually being able to pay off a loan and credit worthiness.

the reaction time to mistakes is slow and they make too many mistakes as well.

Indoor66
07-04-2018, 07:18 PM
Well I would agree something is necessary for the reasons you mentioned. That said, the rules are convoluted - for example, paying off your mortgage can HURT your score under some circumstances. What they measure is a game, a puzzle, but only has a passing relevance to actually being able to pay off a loan and credit worthiness.

the reaction time to mistakes is slow and they make too many mistakes as well.

You are penalized for NOT having a home mortgay.

Jeffrey
07-05-2018, 10:20 AM
Well I would agree something is necessary for the reasons you mentioned. That said, the rules are convoluted - for example, paying off your mortgage can HURT your score under some circumstances. What they measure is a game, a puzzle, but only has a passing relevance to actually being able to pay off a loan and credit worthiness.

the reaction time to mistakes is slow and they make too many mistakes as well.

Give me accurate credit information, keep credit scoring. I only see a need for the first component.

HereBeforeCoachK
07-05-2018, 11:07 AM
Give me accurate credit information, keep credit scoring. I only see a need for the first component.

This is what we used to have when banks were underwriting their own clients. Of course, that was costly an inefficient I would imagine, especially for mass loan universes like the auto loan business. So the banks like the streamlining, and they also like - at times - the excuse NOT to loan the money, and lay it on the reporting agencies.

budwom
07-05-2018, 11:15 AM
You are penalized for NOT having a home mortgay.

Not true with my credit report.....I get a free update every month from Transunion via my Mastercard, and their six criteria are: on time payments, oldest credit line (25+ years is tops), % of credit used, recent inquiries, new accounts, and available credit. A mortgage is one of many inputs which determine your credit history, but not having one won't hurt you, as least as far as Transunion is concerned...and I think they're all roughly the same...

Jeffrey
07-06-2018, 10:12 AM
This is what we used to have when banks were underwriting their own clients. Of course, that was costly an inefficient I would imagine, especially for mass loan universes like the auto loan business. So the banks like the streamlining, and they also like - at times - the excuse NOT to loan the money, and lay it on the reporting agencies.

IMO, prudent financial institutions are still underwriting their own clients. IMO, financial institutions can create much better (and highly efficient) underwriting systems than credit bureaus.

thedukelamere
07-06-2018, 10:29 AM
Not true with my credit report....I get a free update every month from Transunion via my Mastercard, and their six criteria are: on time payments, oldest credit line (25+ years is tops), % of credit used, recent inquiries, new accounts, and available credit. A mortgage is one of many inputs which determine your credit history, but not having one won't hurt you, as least as far as Transunion is concerned...and I think they're all roughly the same...

The "oldest credit line" section needs some work... It bugs me every time I check my report and see that as my only "needs improvement" section. I think 11 years of on time payments and paying off my cards each month should negate any risk factors that come with my age.

budwom
07-06-2018, 11:31 AM
The "oldest credit line" section needs some work... It bugs me every time I check my report and see that as my only "needs improvement" section. I think 11 years of on time payments and paying off my cards each month should negate any risk factors that come with my age.

I absolutely agree, I had no idea that was a criterion...and in fact my oldest account is indeed older than 25 years, but I don't see the point in bothering with it, score is high enough.

HereBeforeCoachK
07-06-2018, 01:01 PM
IMO, prudent financial institutions are still underwriting their own clients. IMO, financial institutions can create much better (and highly efficient) underwriting systems than credit bureaus.

Jeffrey, I wish that were widely true, and I'm sure it's somewhat true - but the most prudent conservative cautious major bank in NC still relies heavily on bureau reports.

Now, for a 10 million dollar commercial loan or something, of course that's underwritten individually - but I really do not think it's the standard. And it's never the standard for auto sales, boat sales, most mortgages....

Jeffrey
07-06-2018, 01:54 PM
Jeffrey, I wish that were widely true, and I'm sure it's somewhat true - but the most prudent conservative cautious major bank in NC still relies heavily on bureau reports.

Now, for a 10 million dollar commercial loan or something, of course that's underwritten individually - but I really do not think it's the standard. And it's never the standard for auto sales, boat sales, most mortgages...

Absolutely, I'm almost always doing the exact opposite of 95%+ of my competition. I probably could have had a very successful career based almost solely upon that business practice.

For example, at current rates, why is any financial institution holding 30 year fixed rate mortgages? IMO, service and immediately sell FRMs.

budwom
07-06-2018, 05:23 PM
Absolutely, I'm almost always doing the exact opposite of 95%+ of my competition. I probably could have had a very successful career based almost solely upon that business practice.

For example, at current rates, why is any financial institution holding 30 year fixed rate mortgages? IMO, service and immediately sell FRMs.

Indeed, 40 years ago I was a VP at Vermont's largest bank (not saying much), a family owned operation which kept its 30 year mortgages...then interest rates hit 16% and higher, the bank was toast. They were clueless.
Before that the small bank I worked at was among the first in New England to sell mortgages, we routinely sold them to Merrill Lynch, and serviced them which was reasonably profitable...

Jeffrey
07-06-2018, 06:18 PM
Indeed, 40 years ago I was a VP at Vermont's largest bank (not saying much), a family owned operation which kept its 30 year mortgages...then interest rates hit 16% and higher, the bank was toast. They were clueless.
Before that the small bank I worked at was among the first in New England to sell mortgages, we routinely sold them to Merrill Lynch, and serviced them which was reasonably profitable...

Exactly, history repeats and fools repeat it. Amazing how much 3-4%, 30 year, FRMs some financial institutions elected to recently keep. What do these fools think is going to happen to deposit rates, over the next decade, as the Fed unwinds its $4.5 trillion portfolio? Otherwise, the logical economic scenario, over the next decade, is another recession, and then what do these same fools think will happen to FRM delinquencies and charge-offs? A 3-4% rate does not leave much charge-off margin, in addition to operating and deposit expenses.

budwom
07-07-2018, 07:15 AM
Exactly, history repeats and fools repeat it. Amazing how much 3-4%, 30 year, FRMs some financial institutions elected to recently keep. What do these fools think is going to happen to deposit rates, over the next decade, as the Fed unwinds its $4.5 trillion portfolio? Otherwise, the logical economic scenario, over the next decade, is another recession, and then what do these same fools think will happen to FRM delinquencies and charge-offs? A 3-4% rate does not leave much charge-off margin, in addition to operating and deposit expenses.

The bank I worked for was then a savings bank, and by law (until the late 1970s i think) ONLY made mortgage loans. Easiest business in the world, hence the term bankers' hours for a 9-3 day. They took in savings (passbooks!) paying 2-3% interest, made home loans at 5-6%, ridiculously easy and lucrative...did not make busines loans or car loans, nothin'! What could go wrong? Nothing until the late seventies...then poof went the business. They tried to adapt when the laws changed, but it was too late.

HereBeforeCoachK
07-30-2018, 02:06 PM
On this topic...sort of...I received the normal notice that I get from LifeLock about credit scores being updated. When I checked, Equifax had dropped us 22 points in a month, and was now 50-60 points below the other two major bureaus. The other scores are extremely good, so our score is still in the upper GOOD range, but man, 50 points!!!!

In the past, the LifeLock web site let me see any problems that popped up, but will not do it this time. So I called them, and they said I had to call Equifax to find out what had happened. So I did, and after the normal series of giving info and hitting numbers on the key pad for verification, and routing, the Equifax guy told me that Equifax didn't score it, that LifeLock uses Equifax info and scores their own.

WTF??? I don't think that's how it works...here I am between these two giant companies (one more giant than the other) - and can't get a straight story on how LifeLock came up with the Equifax score they reported to me. It's been escalated in LifeLock and theoretically I'll get a supervisor today to work through it.

Obviously, in the meantime, I did the old school form to get a copy mailed to me, but that's a Jurassic era 15 day process, and I"m not a patient guy. Several years ago they made a couple mistakes, and AMEX made one, and our score was 100 points lower than it should have been. I got those handled in pretty short order.

I guess to get it back on track for the thread, I think it's clear Equifax has some major administrative problems, and there are way too many mistakes made all up and down their food chain.

budwom
07-30-2018, 02:28 PM
sounds like your Life Lock guy was doing his job well: throw a ton of crap and bad info your way in order to get you to go away. Horrible customer service is pervasive these days, some companies do it very well, many simply don't care.

HereBeforeCoachK
07-30-2018, 03:40 PM
sounds like your Life Lock guy was doing his job well: throw a ton of crap and bad info your way in order to get you to go away. Horrible customer service is pervasive these days, some companies do it very well, many simply don't care.

I actually think the Equifax guy, from India BTW, was the problem. I think LifeLock is doing their job for the most part. I'm not sure if that's what you meant.....

Jeffrey
02-10-2020, 10:45 AM
I hesitate to write this on a public forum, but I'm certain the bad guys are very well aware.

IMO, this is the largest problem the USA faces. Terrorist never need to come anywhere near our borders to wreck total havoc on our financial system. Imagine getting up one morning to find there is no money in your bank account. Now, imagine over 100 million Americans simultaneously having the same experience.

I'm prepared for this possibility, but I doubt many Americans are. Maybe, you should be prepared.

As stated above, IMO, this is just the beginning.....

https://www.wsj.com/articles/four-members-of-china-s-military-indicted-for-massive-equifax-breach-11581346824

HereBeforeCoachK
02-10-2020, 11:26 AM
As stated above, IMO, this is just the beginning....

https://www.wsj.com/articles/four-members-of-china-s-military-indicted-for-massive-equifax-breach-11581346824

I was just having this discussion with my wife this morning.....identity theft (and other hacking risks) have made it dadgummed (apologies to Roy) hard for honest people to do legitimate business with banks, etc.

PackMan97
02-10-2020, 11:32 AM
As stated above, IMO, this is just the beginning....

https://www.wsj.com/articles/four-members-of-china-s-military-indicted-for-massive-equifax-breach-11581346824

Social credit score in China is a derivative of you Credit score.... Yikes. Prayers for the Chinese.

Acymetric
02-10-2020, 11:33 AM
Yahoo is apparently offering a couple years of identity theft monitoring in a class action settlement for their data breach.

Jeffrey
02-10-2020, 03:55 PM
I was just having this discussion with my wife this morning...identity theft (and other hacking risks) have made it dadgummed (apologies to Roy) hard for honest people to do legitimate business with banks, etc.

It certainly will be a major problem when terrorist borrow/steal money under your name.

I suspect the same groups are working on stealing U.S. bank deposits.

Financial terrorism is getting easier to accomplish since many younger U.S. citizens choose to bank in the virtual world.

For those without a WSJ subscription....

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2020-02-10/justice-department-indicted-4-chinese-hackers-in-equifax-breach?utm_campaign=pol&utm_medium=bd&utm_source=applenews

HereBeforeCoachK
02-10-2020, 09:29 PM
It certainly will be a major problem when terrorist borrow/steal money under your name.

I suspect the same groups are working on stealing U.S. bank deposits.

Financial terrorism is getting easier to accomplish since many younger U.S. citizens choose to bank in the virtual world.

For those without a WSJ subscription...

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2020-02-10/justice-department-indicted-4-chinese-hackers-in-equifax-breach?utm_campaign=pol&utm_medium=bd&utm_source=applenews

I agree with this, and I think you missed my point, or at least misread it. I was not complaining about the safeguards.....they are necessary....I was complaining, or bemoaning, the need for the safeguards. I am not younger, and I run numerous businesses, and do most of my banking in the virtual world.

Jeffrey
02-11-2020, 10:36 AM
I agree with this, and I think you missed my point, or at least misread it. I was not complaining about the safeguards...they are necessary...I was complaining, or bemoaning, the need for the safeguards. I am not younger, and I run numerous businesses, and do most of my banking in the virtual world.

I agree, terrorism, of all forms, has made life more difficult for all Americans. For example, commercial air travel since 9/11.

We each make choices and pay the cost. I prefer to spend more time and energy instead of taking on the additional risks/costs of virtual world banking.

I think the two of us understand and accept the trade offs we are making. I doubt many, maybe most, fully do.

HereBeforeCoachK
02-11-2020, 12:28 PM
I agree, terrorism, of all forms, has made life more difficult for all Americans. For example, commercial air travel since 9/11.

We each make choices and pay the cost. I prefer to spend more time and energy instead of taking on the additional risks/costs of virtual world banking.

I think the two of us understand and accept the trade offs we are making. I doubt many, maybe most, fully do.

Cyber terrorism is certainly part of this, but the ID theft movement, and the industry (such as Lifelock, etc) that it birthed come from just plain ole identity theft...and other larcenous acts online.

Jeffrey
02-11-2020, 03:02 PM
Cyber terrorism is certainly part of this, but the ID theft movement, and the industry (such as Lifelock, etc) that it birthed come from just plain ole identity theft...and other larcenous acts online.

I certainly do not want to debate financial semantics with you. If you consider this ID theft, that's fine with me. I consider four members of China’s People’s Liberation Army hacking Equifax (the subject of this thread) cyberterrorism. My only semantic concern is the U.S. Government agree it's cyberterrorism and respond accordingly.

IMO, Google is not helping this situation!

Acymetric
02-11-2020, 03:05 PM
I certainly do not want to debate financial semantics with you. If you consider this ID theft, that's fine with me. I consider four members of China’s People’s Liberation Army hacking Equifax (the subject of this thread) cyberterrorism. My only semantic concern is the U.S. Government agree it's cyberterrorism and respond accordingly.

I'm pretty sure HBCK is talking about ID theft generally and not just the Equifax breach specifically (which is an example of cyberterrorism in the form of ID theft).

Jeffrey
02-11-2020, 03:12 PM
I'm pretty sure HBCK is talking about ID theft generally and not just the Equifax breach specifically (which is an example of cyberterrorism in the form of ID theft).

I'm unsure and certainly see no value in a semantics debate. Initially, HBCK "was complaining, or bemoaning, the need for the safeguards".

Acymetric
02-11-2020, 03:19 PM
I'm unsure and certainly see no value in a semantics debate. Initially, HBCK "was complaining, or bemoaning, the need for the safeguards".

It isn't a semantics debate. You're talking about cyberterrorism specifically, HBCK is (clearly) talking about ID theft generally, some of which is cyberterrorism. I don't think it is outlandish to think it is unfortunate that we need various safeguards to protect us from rampant ID theft/cyberterrorism (while agreeing that we do need them).

I'm pretty sure you're misunderstanding what is being said, because I have no idea what your point is or what you're trying to get at. Nobody is disagreeing with you about cyberterrorism, or arguing against safeguards.

Jeffrey
02-11-2020, 03:39 PM
I don't think it is outlandish to think it is unfortunate that we need various safeguards to protect us from rampant ID theft/cyberterrorism (while agreeing that we do need them).

I also do not think it's outlandish, which is why I previously agreed.


I have no idea what your point is or what you're trying to get at.

I was trying to stay on topic (the Equifax event). Sorry, I really should stop making financial posts here. I'm doing a very poor job resisting the temptation!

HereBeforeCoachK
02-11-2020, 04:43 PM
I certainly do not want to debate financial semantics with you. If you consider this ID theft, that's fine with me. I consider four members of China’s People’s Liberation Army hacking Equifax (the subject of this thread) cyberterrorism. My only semantic concern is the U.S. Government agree it's cyberterrorism and respond accordingly.

IMO, Google is not helping this situation!

Dude, context.......I was speaking in context of all the added security necessary in all online financial transactions...IN GENERAL. Seems others figured that out from comments that I thought were pretty clear. All of this security started as a result of ID Theft, NOT as a result of Cyber Terrorism. It's certainly the case that some of those safeguards address both problems. No one is arguing that here.

elvis14
02-11-2020, 04:43 PM
I was trying to stay on topic (the Equifax event). Sorry, I really should stop making financial posts here. I'm doing a very poor job resisting the temptation!

Some of us appreciate your financial posts.

HereBeforeCoachK
02-11-2020, 04:54 PM
I'm unsure and certainly see no value in a semantics debate. Initially, HBCK "was complaining, or bemoaning, the need for the safeguards".

Complaining about safeguards.....versus bemoaning the NEED for safeguards...are NOT a matter of semantics. They are two entirely different things. As for debating financial matters, I'm happy to do that but I was not making such an esoteric point at the time. BTW I'm macro-economics writer and have written for very major media figures - so they can understand macro economics.

Now I will put meat on the bone, happened just yesterday: My investment bank Merrill now uses "secure mail" instead of email, and it makes everything about sending and signing documents and so on at least one step harder. Especially if you have a slow signal for whatever reason. Now of course these "secure mail" systems are in existence to be more secure than email. So yesterday, an employee at my Merrill branch was sending me the 2019 1099s and had to go thru "secure mail."

Well, she sent my tax info to my brother.....which would not have happened on regular email, because she would have certainly caught the error on auto-populate of the e-address before she hit send. It was a benign error in this case, but that was lucky.

And thus - in this case, I dadgummed sure am complaining about "the safeguard" and not the "need" for the safeguard.....because the safeguard ended up being LESS SAFE than the old fashioned way. That is not always the case - but it demonstrates the difference between safeguards and the need for safeguards being more than mere semantics.

Jeffrey
02-11-2020, 07:11 PM
Dude, context...I was speaking in context of all the added security necessary in all online financial transactions...IN GENERAL. Seems others figured that out from comments that I thought were pretty clear.

And, you probably also understand why they were speaking about Yahoo when I was discussing four members of China’s People’s Liberation Army hacking Equifax (the subject of this thread).

I’d specifically address an issue with another statement, in the remainder of your post, but it would probably generate more GENERAL statements drifting off the specific issue.

So, instead, I wish you a great evening!

Go Duke!

Jeffrey
02-11-2020, 07:16 PM
Some of us appreciate your financial posts.

Thanks, that’s very nice of you to say!

HereBeforeCoachK
02-11-2020, 08:49 PM
And, you probably also understand why they were speaking about Yahoo when I was discussing four members of China’s People’s Liberation Army hacking Equifax (the subject of this thread). !

This thread is 2.5 years old....and you did not start it. I was making a general comment about cyber security concerns and how it's made certain tasks more complicated. You are the only one who did not understand that. I was not referring to the specifics of the China People's Liberation Army or anything else that specific to Equifax. My comment, my first one, made that clear. My interest here was only in the general sense. You jumped ugly at me with your first retort, or at least were a bit patronizing. That was kinda out of line. I fired back a bit. You took offense.

That said, macro economics is one of my areas of intense interest, so I look forward to jousting with you - or agreeing with you - in the future on economic topics.

Acymetric
02-12-2020, 08:37 AM
Thanks, that’s very nice of you to say!

I also appreciate your contributions to various financial threads! I just felt like this most recent little discussion appeared to be two people talking past each other.

Jeffrey
02-12-2020, 12:32 PM
I also appreciate your contributions to various financial threads! I just felt like this most recent little discussion appeared to be two people talking past each other.

Thanks, that’s very nice of you to say! You're right, I was making specific statements and the other poster was making general statements. As a result, it was not a beneficial conversation and added no DBR value.

Given my background, I usually make specific financial statements. That will probably not change, but I will adjust my DBR financial posting accordingly.