Was Renovating WWS the Right Choice?

[burnspbesq]

https://stadium.colostate.edu

[DU82]

https://stadium.colostate.edu

New is not necessarily better. We have a historic stadium, which needed updating. It didn't need replacement.

That stadium cost twice as much as our upgrades. If we built new, I'm guessing Duke would raise the money, but would it be worth it? Where would you put the stadium? How far away from the main campus would it have to be (or, if on the current campus, how much to replace what you're building on?) How much is the infrastructure that's needed to support the stadium in it's new location (I'm assuming it's a new location, since building in place would mean another bowl design, given the grade differentials.)


CSU was replacing a 1968 stadium, and probably decided it made more sense to build new. It does appear that they were able to build on campus, instead of on the outskirts of town, so that's a nice decision. But it's not Duke. Different situation.

I'm guessing you're one of the people who wanted to replace Cameron, too.

[chrishoke]

Yes it was.

[OldPhiKap]

Yes, much needed. I could quibble with the how, but not the why.

[TruBlu]

I've been going to Duke football games at WW for so long that If Duke had built a new stadium at a different location, I would still be going to WW and wandering where the team and all the people were. (Kind of like some of the seasons before Coach Cut.)

Yes, renovating WW was the right choice. As was hiring Coach Cut.

[burnspbesq]

I'm guessing you're one of the people who wanted to replace Cameron, too.

Nope. I try to avoid conflating issues that are analytically separate.

There's a defference between Cameron the facility and Cameron the experience. Cameron is worth preserving because the experience is unique and irreplaceable. As a facility, I'll take (to cite only one example) the Galen Center all day, every day.

[AustinDevil]

Nope. I try to avoid conflating issues that are analytically separate.

There's a defference between Cameron the facility and Cameron the experience. Cameron is worth preserving because the experience is unique and irreplaceable. As a facility, I'll take (to cite only one example) the Galen Center all day, every day.

To your original question, and explicit comparison to Colorado State: yes, renovation and not replacement! CSU moved from a meh 1960s stadium that was 4 miles off campus to a brand-new on-campus facility. There is no question that Duke should retain and enhance a beautiful stadium that was already on campus. Never mind the history of the place--but imho that matters too.

Frankly I'm tempted to think you might have posted this only to garner pro-WW replies! And lastly, I will admit that I am jealous of the CSU beer porch; but that's not about renovation or replacement; it's a question of (stupid) Duke policy.

[Uncle Drew]

Nope. I try to avoid conflating issues that are analytically separate.

There's a difference between Cameron the facility and Cameron the experience. Cameron is worth preserving because the experience is unique and irreplaceable. As a facility, I'll take (to cite only one example) the Galen Center all day, every day.

I respect questioning if building a new stadium would have made more sense than renovation. So many, Duke and non-Duke fans know and respect the historical past and present greatness of Cameron. But Wallace Wade in some ways is even more historical. The only stadium outside the state of California to host a Rose Bowl (which my own father attended before shipping off to serve in WWII) is worth keeping. Duke used to be a national force in football (granted leather helmets were still being worn) but great coaches coached there and great players played on that field.

My only issue with WW being renovated was my wish some multilevel parking garages were not added close to the stadiums so fans wouldn't have to park along side streets. (They could have slapped some mortar and stone on the outside to maintain the "Gothic" look.) But it was an idea I thought would bring in fans that would stay away due to a five mile hike.

[hallcity]

Considering that there's a very real risk that the CTE issue will bring about the end of college football as we know it in the next 20 years or less, I can't see the huge expenditure of a new stadium.

[moonpie23]

Considering that there's a very real risk that the CTE issue will bring about the end of college football as we know it in the next 20 years or less, I can't see the huge expenditure of a new stadium.

this......

i'm not one to delve into predictions, but, i'm actually on board with this one........this pot of bile is just beginning to foam up...

[Atldukie79]

I respect questioning if building a new stadium would have made more sense than renovation. So many, Duke and non-Duke fans know and respect the historical past and present greatness of Cameron. But Wallace Wade in some ways is even more historical. The only stadium outside the state of California to host a Rose Bowl (which my own father attended before shipping off to serve in WWII) is worth keeping. Duke used to be a national force in football (granted leather helmets were still being worn) but great coaches coached there and great players played on that field.

My only issue with WW being renovated was my wish some multilevel parking garages were not added close to the stadiums so fans wouldn't have to park along side streets. (They could have slapped some mortar and stone on the outside to maintain the "Gothic" look.) But it was an idea I thought would bring in fans that would stay away due to a five mile hike.

Well, not garages, but garage:

https://today.duke.edu/2016/11/new-west-campus-parking-garage-open

[Wander]

Considering that there's a very real risk that the CTE issue will bring about the end of college football as we know it in the next 20 years or less, I can't see the huge expenditure of a new stadium.

It's an interesting point. My guess would be that I don't think football will end, but we're going to have to make reforms like eliminate kickoffs and punt returns and people are just going to have to stop whining about that.

[dukelifer]

Considering that there's a very real risk that the CTE issue will bring about the end of college football as we know it in the next 20 years or less, I can't see the huge expenditure of a new stadium.

This is affecting high school football already in some places. If universities are required to provide long term health care to former players - then only a few programs will be able to afford it. The new stadium is nice but probably has only improved my overall experience by 10%. Folks come for the product on the field and Duke is already challenged to have significant football support from the community where basketball enthusiasm rules the roost.

[budwom]

Football is just about entering the phase where it can be considered a gladiator sport...many players will have bad lingering effects, many kids will choose not to participate, but there will be enough
kids willing to take on the very big risks for some time I would imagine...even if kids succeed and make it to the NFL, the average career length is abysmally low...guys get hurt or lose a step and there are more contestants ready to give it a shot.
Cart away the injured gladiator, bring on a fresh one.

[duke2x]

Beyond the CTE issue that could bring a low yield to Duke's investment, I vote yes, and I am generally against renovations and new stadiums.

This would actually be an interesting study. It's not a chicken-egg problem. You have to get the coach first with the promise and fundraising to do an aggressive offseason renovate/rebuild after 2 good seasons coaching.
Stanford is the only other football program that quickly sticks out in my mind, but they had Jim Harbaugh. Facility renovations/builds have not helped the vast majority of the ACC basketball teams over the last 10-15 years be a consistent top 3 with Duke/UNC.

No for Roof, Franks, Goldsmith sans his 1994 coordinators, and Barry Wilson. I'm not sure blank checks for staff and facilities would have helped. Yes for Cutcliffe and Spurrier.

[budwom]

it's worth keeping in mind that in the recently concluded Duke Forward giga fundraising effort, athletics raised $340 million, vs the target of $250 million...so they had no trouble whatsoever covering the
$100 million upgrade to WW.....yes, one could argue the money could possibly be better used someplace else, but this money was specifically targeted for athletics and might well have not been donated
for other causes. (I think WW had sunk to such miserable depths that a significant upgrade was absolutely required....one can argue about how much is enough or too much).

[dukelifer]

it's worth keeping in mind that in the recently concluded Duke Forward giga fundraising effort, athletics raised $340 million, vs the target of $250 million...so they had no trouble whatsoever covering the
$100 million upgrade to WW....yes, one could argue the money could possibly be better used someplace else, but this money was specifically targeted for athletics and might well have not been donated
for other causes. (I think WW had sunk to such miserable depths that a significant upgrade was absolutely required...one can argue about how much is enough or too much).

That is an impressive number and if it can reduce the subsidy that the University gives to athletics of 15M then it will have indirectly helped the other parts of Duke. That said- I am not convinced that the subsidy will be reduced ( we will see) which begs the question - where did the money go?

[budwom]

That is an impressive number and if it can reduce the subsidy that the University gives to athletics of 15M then it will have indirectly helped the other parts of Duke. That said- I am not convinced that the subsidy will be reduced ( we will see) which begs the question - where did the money go?

good question, and I imagine we could probably get an answer from Duke...I know they don't want us to think we don't have to donate any more because of the success of the Duke Forward campaign, but it's perfectly fair to
ask where the money will go. I would purely guess they can endow some stuff, improve some other facilities, etc...(do something to the baseball stadium is well past due).

But I echo your suspicion that it might not affect the athletics subsidy...colleges and athletic departments seem to have insatiable financial appetites.

p.s. I do have a good contact in the fundraising area at Duke, I'll ask the question.

[uh_no]

That is an impressive number and if it can reduce the subsidy that the University gives to athletics of 15M then it will have indirectly helped the other parts of Duke. That said- I am not convinced that the subsidy will be reduced ( we will see) which begs the question - where did the money go?

well, we're starting a softball team, for one. I will also say that it's impressive that the athletics department has NOT needed the increased subsidy, despite everything (including, say, cost of tuition rise).

also nit: that's not begging the question.

[sagegrouse]

good question, and I imagine we could probably get an answer from Duke...I know they don't want us to think we don't have to donate any more because of the success of the Duke Forward campaign, but it's perfectly fair to
ask where the money will go. I would purely guess they can endow some stuff, improve some other facilities, etc...(do something to the baseball stadium is well past due).

But I echo your suspicion that it might not affect the athletics subsidy...colleges and athletic departments seem to have insatiable financial appetites.

p.s. I do have a good contact in the fundraising area at Duke, I'll ask the question.

The objective for the University as a whole is to get endowment coverage for all scholarships. Only a few schools are able to do this for academic scholarships (Harvard's $37 billion covers a lot of ground). The rest have to use a portion of tuition income to support scholarships.

I expect the same objective applies to athletic scholarships.

[budwom]

well, we're starting a softball team, for one. I will also say that it's impressive that the athletics department has NOT needed the increased subsidy, despite everything (including, say, cost of tuition rise).

also nit: that's not begging the question.

But I'm thinking stuff like that was covered in the original $250 million goal, but perhaps not...the campaign began quite some time ago.

[uh_no]

But I'm thinking stuff like that was covered in the original $250 million goal, but perhaps not...the campaign began quite some time ago.

yeah. dunno. facilities upgrades ahead of plan? funding more schollys, coach raises, subsidizing free parking for football, giving me a raise to hand out programs (NOT)

I'm sure the department has no shortage of things they can do with more money. a full size swim pool and greater compensation for the band would be great.

[budwom]

yeah. dunno. facilities upgrades ahead of plan? funding more schollys, coach raises, subsidizing free parking for football, giving me a raise to hand out programs (NOT)

I'm sure the department has no shortage of things they can do with more money. a full size swim pool and greater compensation for the band would be great.

Just got a response, though it is not ultra specific. The original $250 million goal was $100m for annual operating expenses, 100m for facility enhancements, and 50m for endowments.

Of the additional 90m that came in, 80m (!) is being used for more facility enhancements. Did not get a full breakdown, but it includes the softball facility and the Cameron Legacy project.
There do not seem to be plans for a new bezbol stadium, the response I got was that they very much like the DBAP. The other 10m covers more operating expenses.

[Bob Green]

Back to the original question...yes, renovating Wallace Wade Stadium was the right choice. This is a question which has no right or wrong answer but rather a question which each individual has to answer according to their own perspective. My dad took me to my first game at Duke Stadium in 1966 when I was seven years old. Dad and I were there on September 30, 1967* when the stadium was renamed Wallace Wade Stadium. There are a lot of very fond memories in my life centered around the horseshoe so I am very glad it was renovated and preserved. Now I am taking my daughter and grandson to games creating more memories and it is a good thing those games will continue to be played at the same venue.

* South Carolina 21, Duke 17 - we fumbled** the opening kick-off which South Carolina fell on in the end zone for a quick 7-0 lead.

** The memory of an 8 year old kid says we didn't really fumble the kick-off rather the kick returner failed to catch it.

[jv001]

Back to the original question...yes, renovating Wallace Wade Stadium was the right choice. This is a question which has no right or wrong answer but rather a question which each individual has to answer according to their own perspective. My dad took me to my first game at Duke Stadium in 1966 when I was seven years old. Dad and I were there on September 30, 1967* when the stadium was renamed Wallace Wade Stadium. There are a lot of very fond memories in my life centered around the horseshoe so I am very glad it was renovated and preserved. Now I am taking my daughter and grandson to games creating more memories and it is a good thing those games will continue to be played at the same venue.

* South Carolina 21, Duke 17 - we fumbled** the opening kick-off which South Carolina fell on in the end zone for a quick 7-0 lead.

** The memory of an 8 year old kid says we didn't really fumble the kick-off rather the kick returner failed to catch it.

I attended that game. I had been home from serving in the US Army(in Vietnam) about 6 months. Thanks for the memories. GoDuke!

[OZ]

Back to the original question...yes, renovating Wallace Wade Stadium was the right choice. This is a question which has no right or wrong answer but rather a question which each individual has to answer according to their own perspective. My dad took me to my first game at Duke Stadium in 1966 when I was seven years old. Dad and I were there on September 30, 1967* when the stadium was renamed Wallace Wade Stadium. There are a lot of very fond memories in my life centered around the horseshoe so I am very glad it was renovated and preserved. Now I am taking my daughter and grandson to games creating more memories and it is a good thing those games will continue to be played at the same venue.

* South Carolina 21, Duke 17 - we fumbled** the opening kick-off which South Carolina fell on in the end zone for a quick 7-0 lead.

** The memory of an 8 year old kid says we didn't really fumble the kick-off rather the kick returner failed to catch it.

First, I am not certain why the original question was raised. Though, it evades me, I am sure there is a reason or a valid point somewhere. I have been attending football games in WW for fifty years. Unfortunately, I was also at that South Carolina game. WW had reached the point where they either had to renovate it or close it. IMO - and I have picked enough splinters from my butt to have earned an opinion - I think they made the correct decision. WW is now a beautiful place and they have done a great job of tying it in with Cameron. It's a place where I am NOW proud to invite friends and my rear and back are thankful for the contoured seats. See you Saturday!

[Pghdukie]

I believe the Football experience at WW would be more enjoyable if the game start times were adjusted according to the weather. No one wants to sit on aluminum seats in 90° sun.

[Bob Green]

I believe the Football experience at WW would be more enjoyable if the game start times were adjusted according to the weather. No one wants to sit on aluminum seats in 90° sun.

1. ESPN says "No thanks."

2. Did you sit on the wood bleachers?

[Pghdukie]

1. ESPN says "No thanks."

2. Did you sit on the wood bleachers?

You mean the bleachers with the seat number 4" away from the next patron

[Devil in the Blue Dress]

From my perspective, renovating was the better choice. Aside from any questions regarding how to fill the seats and what size stadium is actually needed, my family has a long history with this stadium. Each visit is like coming home.

My dad attended the first game in the stadium as a freshman (1929). The area around the stadium was quite muddy. He proposed to my mother at the Duke - Pitt game in 1938, a very cold day with lots of snow and wind. At the Navy game in 1960, my dad made his famous self portrait as he attempted to take a photo of Duke's winning touchdown. I got engaged at the UVA game in 1966, a fall monsoon was drenching everyone. Interspersed among these family events were many fine football games and a few concerts.

Duke is unique in so many ways and always has been. Whatever trends develop for creating facilities at other universities should be considered in the context of Duke's needs and unique characteristics.