PDA

View Full Version : Kyrie Traded to Boston



Pages : [1] 2

Pghdukie
08-22-2017, 07:29 PM
Irving to Celtics will be done today

kAzE
08-22-2017, 07:30 PM
It's official!

JasonEvans
08-22-2017, 07:31 PM
Jeff Goodman says the Cavs have agreed to deal Kyrie Irving to the Celtics for Isaiah Thomas, Jae Crowder, Ante Zizic and the 2018 Nets pick. Wow, quite a haul for Cleveland. The Celtics must really, really love Irving. That Nets pick is a hugely valuable asset.

-Jason "methinks part of this deal is the Celtics freeing up forward minutes for Jaylen Brown and especially Jayson Tatum" Evans

duke4ever19
08-22-2017, 07:34 PM
Next year's Celtics vs. Cavs games are going to be zesty!!

Pghdukie
08-22-2017, 07:35 PM
Cavs "inquired" about Tatum, Celtics said no.

MChambers
08-22-2017, 07:45 PM
how's Irving going to feel about being covered by the Globe?

UrinalCake
08-22-2017, 07:45 PM
Wow, moving Crowder is a huge plus for Tatum too.

Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15
08-22-2017, 07:49 PM
Kyrie comes out WAY ahead here. Celtics are poised to compete right away, and to own the conference when Lebron leaves.

Still questioning Irving's timing?

BigZ
08-22-2017, 07:50 PM
So does Cleveland keep the pick or go all in and use it to get another player

OldPhiKap
08-22-2017, 07:57 PM
Per BDN

duketaylor
08-22-2017, 07:58 PM
Very interesting trade. Cavs get a ton, IMO.

Dr. Rosenrosen
08-22-2017, 08:12 PM
This may be enough to make me watch regular season games again.

WillJ
08-22-2017, 08:14 PM
Good haul for the Cavs, IMO. I'm surprised.

CDu
08-22-2017, 08:24 PM
Great trade for the Cavs. They get a superstar in return, plus a terrific team player on a really team-friendly contract, a promising young big, and a high draft pick. They will almost certainly win the East again this year, and will be in better position for the rebuild when/if LeBron walks next summer.

For the Celtics, they get younger at PG, and younger on the wings, and a somewhat cost-controlled superstar for an extra year. They now become the frontrunners for the East in 2018-19 if LeBron walks next summer.

Did the Celtics give up too much? Probably. But if Irving can be an even better face of the franchise than Thomas (similar talents but Irving is far younger) maybe it is worth it. Their ceiling is certainly higher today than it was yesterday, as at least Irving has a chance on defense where Thomas does not.

What a fun trade though. So rare to see two rivals trade superstars like this. I am excited to see how it plays out.

dukelifer
08-22-2017, 08:30 PM
Great trade for the Cavs. They get a superstar in return, plus a terrific team player on a really team-friendly contract, a promising young big, and a high draft pick. They will almost certainly win the East again this year, and will be in better position for the rebuild when/if LeBron walks next summer.

For the Celtics, they get younger at PG, and younger on the wings, and a somewhat cost-controlled superstar for an extra year. They now become the frontrunners for the East in 2018-19 if LeBron walks next summer.

Did the Celtics give up too much? Probably. But if Irving can be an even better face of the franchise than Thomas (similar talents but Irving is far younger) maybe it is worth it. Their ceiling is certainly higher today than it was yesterday, as at least Irving has a chance on defense where Thomas does not.

What a fun trade though. So rare to see two rivals trade superstars like this. I am excited to see how it plays out.

Definitely made the East more interesting. Both teams have a number of new faces - but I like Stevens as a coach. It will be interesting to watch.

jbay201
08-22-2017, 08:37 PM
so happy for kyrie! way better than any other team he could have been traded to. can't wait to see him play with tatum and learn from a real coach!

is there anyway okafor could get over to boston and away from the dumpster fire of philly?

richardjackson199
08-22-2017, 08:54 PM
With Tatum and Kyrie, yep I'm a new Celtics fan!
Boston strong

Duke95
08-22-2017, 08:59 PM
Kyrie and Tatum on the same team. Yes.

jwillfan
08-22-2017, 09:08 PM
Got a call from an older PhiKap in NYC essentially saying "I can't believe I have to root for those (expletives) Celtics now that they have Kyrie *and* Tatum!!" I laughed at him, frustrated Knicks/Nets fan. Not having a horse in that race, I say Go Green!

CDu
08-22-2017, 09:12 PM
Definitely made the East more interesting. Both teams have a number of new faces - but I like Stevens as a coach. It will be interesting to watch.

It is one of those rare blockbusters that works well for both teams. Cleveland gets a bit better (adding two nice supporting pieces while taking only a slight step back at PG) for the 2017-18 season and gets a nice asset to either dangle in a trade to try to entice LeBron to stay or to help in their rebuild if/when LeBron leaves. Boston gets a younger star PG under contract for an extra year who fits better with their young core's window.

It will be interesting to see if Cleveland keeps Crowder/Zizic/pick or tries to turn that into another star.

darthur
08-22-2017, 09:14 PM
Hard to imagine a better outcome for Kyrie -- very cool.

Also hard to imagine a much better outcome for the Cavs too -- boo. :) At least the board should be a little less anti-Warriors if we get Cleveland/GS round 4 next year!

BD80
08-22-2017, 09:14 PM
I'm now a Celtic fan.

Moving Crowder opens up time for Tatum.

Zizic wasn't going to see the floor with Horford and Baynes,

Kyrie is an upgrade over Thomas, 6'3" v 5' 9" and 3 years younger, and Thomas is expecting big money.

The Brooklyn pick could be very valuable.

But what value is that pick to LeBron? To me this confirms that he is leaving ASAP and the rebuild is underway. Thomas will stay if he gets $

OldPhiKap
08-22-2017, 09:19 PM
Got a call from an older PhiKap in NYC essentially saying "I can't believe I have to root for those (expletives) Celtics now that they have Kyrie *and* Tatum!!" I laughed at him, frustrated Knicks/Nets fan. Not having a horse in that race, I say Go Green!

Tell my brother to get on DBR and shoot me a message . . . .

Furniture
08-22-2017, 09:23 PM
With Tatum and Kyrie, yep I'm a new Celtics fan!
Boston strong

Me too. Looking forward to see Semi succeed as well!!

bundabergdevil
08-22-2017, 09:24 PM
how's Irving going to feel about being covered by the Globe?

After yesterday's eclipse, it may just be too much to process...

OZZIE4DUKE
08-22-2017, 09:27 PM
Got a call from an older PhiKap in NYC essentially saying "I can't believe I have to root for those (expletives) Celtics now that they have Kyrie *and* Tatum!!" I laughed at him, frustrated Knicks/Nets fan. Not having a horse in that race, I say Go Green!
I hate rooting for any Boston team, but yeah, go Celts!

DangerDevil
08-22-2017, 09:36 PM
I think Ainge is trying to convince Coach K that he needs to add the TD Garden to the Cameron North rotation.

If Ainge works his magic, his luck continues, the Celtics get the Lakers pick at #2 and turn that into Bagley, I will be estatic!

FerryFor50
08-22-2017, 09:39 PM
how's Irving going to feel about being covered by the Globe?

When asked, I'm sure his response was flat.

BigZ
08-22-2017, 10:08 PM
I'm now a Celtic fan.

Moving Crowder opens up time for Tatum.

Zizic wasn't going to see the floor with Horford and Baynes,

Kyrie is an upgrade over Thomas, 6'3" v 5' 9" and 3 years younger, and Thomas is expecting big money.

The Brooklyn pick could be very valuable.

But what value is that pick to LeBron? To me this confirms that he is leaving ASAP and the rebuild is underway. Thomas will stay if he gets $

I think it works both ways they can still compete with Thomas and Crowder and can rebuild. This move won't piss Lebron off so it could work just for this year or it could help them another piece if they are willing to trade the pick in order to keep Lebron

devildeac
08-22-2017, 10:09 PM
Got a call from an older PhiKap in NYC essentially saying "I can't believe I have to root for those (expletives) Celtics now that they have Kyrie *and* Tatum!!" I laughed at him, frustrated Knicks/Nets fan. Not having a horse in that race, I say Go Green!

I grew up a 6'ers fan. It'll be somewhat painful to utter/mumble/grumble, "Go Celts." :o

Philadukie
08-22-2017, 10:25 PM
I grew up a 6'ers fan. It'll be somewhat painful to utter/mumble/grumble, "Go Celts." :o

I'm going to be looking forward to the Celtics-Sixers game on Oct. 20th! Kyrie, Redick, Tatum, Okafor. Should be fun!

kAzE
08-22-2017, 10:35 PM
I wonder how FlyingDutchDevil is going to feel about the swarm of bandwagoners :D

Newton_14
08-22-2017, 10:44 PM
Please use this thread to discuss Kyrie to Boston so we can close the old one. New viewers would not want to wade through the muck in the old thread to get to this new news. Thanks

DevilFalcon
08-22-2017, 10:44 PM
I think it works both ways they can still compete with Thomas and Crowder and can rebuild. This move won't piss Lebron off so it could work just for this year or it could help them another piece if they are willing to trade the pick in order to keep Lebron

Keep, Lebron, and Cleveland are 3 words that can't be in the same sentence without including one or more of: not, won't, isn't happening, no way...

CDu
08-22-2017, 10:51 PM
Celtics gave up ALOT to set up their window nicely for 2-3 years from now when Brown and Tatum are ready to shine. Irving is probably better than Thomas today, and much younger. They probably shot themselves in the foot for this year, and probably overpaid. But if Irving stays, they have a potentially GREAT young team for the future. And they raised their ceiling by trading Thomas at peak value.

Cavs get A LOT for a player that everyone knew had to go. They can either try to swing another trade (Crowder's contract is amazing, Zizic has promise, and that Nets pick is nice), or hold onto everything and take an improved team into next year's playoffs. And then hope the draft pick turns out #1. If LeBron stays, they can resign Thomas. If LeBron leaves, they can let Thomas walk and start the rebuild with a high draft pivk.

I love the trade for the Cavs. But I don't hate it for the Celtics either.

moonpie23
08-22-2017, 10:53 PM
Hard to imagine a better outcome for Kyrie -- very cool.

!

i would say the spurs.....

Newton_14
08-22-2017, 10:56 PM
Jeff Goodman says the Cavs have agreed to deal Kyrie Irving to the Celtics for Isaiah Thomas, Jae Crowder, Ante Zizic and the 2018 Nets pick. Wow, quite a haul for Cleveland. The Celtics must really, really love Irving. That Nets pick is a hugely valuable asset.

-Jason "methinks part of this deal is the Celtics freeing up forward minutes for Jaylen Brown and especially Jayson Tatum" Evans

I actually see it the other way. I think in the end, Boston got the better end of the deal. I had feared the Cavs would have insisted on Tatum being included. I was ecstatic when I saw the list of names!

I grew up a Celtics fan but waffled over the years when free agency meant players changing teams like I change clothes. I became a "Player fan" vs a "team" fan. Now I can pull for a team again and the team I grew up loving which is great. (yeah yeah I know... "fairweather fan". But like I said I pulled for certain teams due to the players and not "whoever the best team was". So at least there's that I guess).

Go Celtics!! I can't wait to watch Kyrie and Tatum doing their thing in Celtic Green and White!

kAzE
08-22-2017, 11:01 PM
Celtics gave up ALOT to set up their window nicely for 2-3 years from now when Brown and Tatum are ready to shine. Irving is probably better than Thomas today, and much younger. They probably shot themselves in the foot for this year, and probably overpaid. But if Irving stays, they have a potentially GREAT young team for the future. And they raised their ceiling by trading Thomas at peak value.

Cavs get A LOT for a player that everyone knew had to go. They can either try to swing another trade (Crowder's contract is amazing, Zizic has promise, and that Nets pick is nice), or hold onto everything and take an improved team into next year's playoffs. And then hope the draft pick turns out #1. If LeBron stays, they can resign Thomas. If LeBron leaves, they can let Thomas walk and start the rebuild with a high draft pivk.

I love the trade for the Cavs. But I don't hate it for the Celtics either.

MAYBE they overpaid. You don't know that for sure. If the Nets somehow win a few games this year, and that pick is in the 4-10 range rather than 1-3, this is a GREAT trade for Boston.

If it's Marvin Bagley . . . then yeah, it might look bad.

mkirsh
08-23-2017, 12:23 AM
What is the latest on IT's hip injury? I would assume Cleveland has done medical due diligence on this and it checked out OK? That could be the factor in determining who "won" this trade.

LasVegas
08-23-2017, 12:38 AM
What is the latest on IT's hip injury? I would assume Cleveland has done medical due diligence on this and it checked out OK? That could be the factor in determining who "won" this trade.

As a cavs fan, I think they "won" the trade no matter what. Kyrie forced their hand at a bad time. They are lucky they got anything out of it. Hopefully that pick turns out to be 1-2.

johnb
08-23-2017, 06:19 AM
Headline from the NY Times: "Donald Trump, Afghanistan, Kyrie Irving: Your Wednesday Briefing"

Cleveland got a good deal. Boston is now poised to be a great team.

Two reasons: 1. In the NBA, a superstar>>2 stars. Irving is a superstar. The other guys aren't. Well, except that Nets pick, which could turn into a monster.

2. Nevertheless, the Celtics still have almost too many 1st round picks in the next few years.
Here are the draft picks that Boston still has: (from https://www.boston.com/sports/boston-celtics/2017/06/20/celtics-future-draft-picks-list)

2018

Los Angeles Lakers (If pick falls between spots 2-5)

Boston Celtics’ own pick

2019

Philadelphia 76ers or Sacramento Kings (If the Lakers’ 2018 pick falls outside 2-5, Boston will instead have a choice between Philadelphia’s top-1 protected pick or Sacramento’s top-1 protected pick in 2019)

Memphis Grizzlies (If pick falls outside top-8)

Los Angeles Clippers (If pick falls outside top-14)

Boston Celtics’ own pick

2020

Memphis Grizzlies (If pick has not yet been conveyed and falls outside top-6)

Los Angeles Clippers (If pick has not yet been conveyed and falls outside top-14)

Boston Celtics’ own pick

2021

Memphis Grizzlies (If pick has not yet been conveyed. Pick would be unprotected)

Boston Celtics’ own pick

wsb3
08-23-2017, 09:03 AM
http://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/20423725/are-celtics-better-kyrie-irving-trade

Kind of jumped out at me that the Celtics have only 4 players from last years team that finished 1 in the regular season..

CDu
08-23-2017, 09:21 AM
http://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/20423725/are-celtics-better-kyrie-irving-trade

Kind of jumped out at me that the Celtics have only 4 players from last years team that finished 1 in the regular season..

Yeah, that article sums things up nicely. I think the Celtics took a step back this year with this trade. But they are better-positioned moving forward with a younger, better talent at PG to go with their young core.

I think they might be a better team than last year, with Hayward upgrading over Crowder, Irving offsetting Thomas, adding Tatum, and getting a year older. But I am not sure, as they lost Bradley and got even smaller despite being a poor rebounding team. And I am pretty sure they are further from the 2018 Finals today after giving a net upgrade to the Cavs roster.

But the value of this trade to the Celtics isn't for this year. It is for next year and beyond. They are better-positioned to capitalize on what they hope are star years for Brown and Tatum in 2-3-4-5 years from now. And that is a time in which Golden State may be retooling and LeBron will be fading.

nmduke2001
08-23-2017, 09:45 AM
Yeah, that article sums things up nicely. I think the Celtics took a step back this year with this trade. But they are better-positioned moving forward with a younger, better talent at PG to go with their young core.

I think they might be a better team than last year, with Hayward upgrading over Crowder, Irving offsetting Thomas, adding Tatum, and getting a year older. But I am not sure, as they lost Bradley and got even smaller despite being a poor rebounding team. And I am pretty sure they are further from the 2018 Finals today after giving a net upgrade to the Cavs roster.

But the value of this trade to the Celtics isn't for this year. It is for next year and beyond. They are better-positioned to capitalize on what they hope are star years for Brown and Tatum in 2-3-4-5 years from now. And that is a time in which Golden State may be retooling and LeBron will be fading.

I'd say the reason (for me) that Boston won this trade is that there is no way on earth I would give Isaiah Thomas a max contract when his deal is up. I would guess that Ainge knew someone would bite and pay Thomas a lot of money and he wasn't willing to match. If you can move Thomas and get Kyrie in return, that's a win.

MrPoon
08-23-2017, 09:46 AM
I think both teams did very well considering the situation.

Boston didn't want to sign Thomas to a long term deal but how do you let him walk? Trade him.
But how do you replace him? KI. Both aren't plus defenders but KI can play some when motivated. IT simply cannot.

The bet Boston is making is the Steven's can get a roster to play as a team and play good D. But he can't make them better athletes and he needed more diverse scoring. Bring in Tatum, Gordon, KI. Wow, I'd make the same bet.

The unrestricted first round pick has the chance of haunting them but we all know how open and risky any future draft can be.

Cleveland was smart too. Two very short term fixes for the KI problem, match the scoring and add some perimeter D. Crowder's scoring is about to get better with LBJ helping set him up. Plus the pick and much more cap flexibility down the road.

Good trade all around. Tough as a cavs fan, happy as a KI fan. Still really had a hard time explaining the entire thing to my die hard KI fan 12 year old son. Had KI's shoes on at the time.

Billy Dat
08-23-2017, 10:02 AM
What a fun trade though. So rare to see two rivals trade superstars like this. I am excited to see how it plays out.

Yes!

Good commentary and analysis on this thread...I listened to Bill Simmons' podcast crew (Simmons, O'Connor, Serrano, Titus and Tjarks) break down the trade in the immediate aftermath and someone made that point that with the Nets having upgraded their talent and having zero incentive to lose this season due to not owning their pick. If the thought is that the 2018 draft may be top heavy (Bagley, Porter Jr., Ayton, Doncic), and ESPN's Kevin Pelton reports that ESPN's real +/- projections have the Nets (and therefore Cleveland) getting the 5th pick...it was a good risk.

I really have to admire Ainge's acumen as a GM, but also a huge win for Cav GM Koby Altman who started under a cloud and pulled a huge win out of the hat, especially going toe to toe with Ainge. (not that he won the trade - he may have - but that he got such a good deal)


Got a call from an older PhiKap in NYC essentially saying "I can't believe I have to root for those (expletives) Celtics now that they have Kyrie *and* Tatum!!" I laughed at him, frustrated Knicks/Nets fan. Not having a horse in that race, I say Go Green!

Man do I resemble that remark. As a tortured Knicks fan, I rooted for the Bird Celtics in the 80s (not against the Knicks), but flipped against the Celtics in the Pierce era (he just owned the Knicks) and when Boston's 4 sports success became utterly unbearable. Now, with Kyrie and Tatum, I am interested again.

CrazyNotCrazie
08-23-2017, 10:04 AM
I think this was generally a win-win for both teams. Cleveland had its hands tied since Kyrie asked to leave. Boston had its hands tied in terms of trying to get some value back for Thomas. Boston has accumulated a lot of depth, both in terms of current talent and future picks, but ultimately, there are only 240 minutes of playing time per game to be divided amongst those players.

I wonder if there was any back and forth about whether it would be the Nets pick vs. the Lakers pick that got traded. If I were a Celtics fan, I would be a bit happier about this deal if I had given up the Lakers pick instead of the Nets pick, though we will see how the ping pong balls bounce next spring.

I am a lifelong Knicks fan who really does not like the makeup of the team right now but will have a hard time rooting for the Celtics despite them having two of my favorite former Duke players.

Native
08-23-2017, 10:09 AM
I don’t think you can really evaluate who came out ahead in this trade until we see what this Nets pick turns into. If, for instance, Isaiah Thomas reinjures his hip or the Nets somehow magically make the playoff — or that pick isn’t somehow Top 5 — then Boston moved a lot of assets in Isaiah and Crowder that could have ultimately burdened them down the line. Much of Crowder’s value came as the result of his bargain-basement contract. How valuable is he on a more expensive contract?

I like this trade for both teams, and I especially like that it gets Kyrie in what appears to be a more stable situation in the future.

kAzE
08-23-2017, 10:44 AM
I think it's pretty key to remember that Isaiah Thomas is on the last year of his very cheap contract, and thinks he deserves a max contract offer in the 2018 off season, which would probably run his team around $30+ million per year. This is the exact same reason they traded Avery Bradley for Marcus Morris (an objectively less valuable player than Avery Bradley). Kyrie, meanwhile, has 2 years and a player option left on his contract. They basically dodge a massive cap hit for 1 more year, and get a younger, more talented point guard to invest in for the long haul.

Isaiah Thomas is a GREAT player, but no way in hell would I be cool with giving a 29 year old 5'9" point guard (who already has injury concerns) a maxed long term contract. It's just too risky.

Billy Dat
08-23-2017, 11:00 AM
Isaiah Thomas is a GREAT player, but no way in hell would I be cool with giving a 29 year old 5'9" point guard (who already has injury concerns) a maxed long term contract. It's just too risky.

Yeah - that's definitely a big aspect of this whole trade. A complicating factor is how apparently beloved IT was in Boston. This trade is amazing on so many levels, and further proof that the NBA refuses to be ignored at any point in the sports calendar. The NBA off-season has really become, like, another major sport...the draft, free agency, summer league, social media, crazy trades...while they are happy to be gainfully employed journalists, the NBA writers are begging for mercy, they are having a legit hard time taking vacations!

CDu
08-23-2017, 11:21 AM
I think it's pretty key to remember that Isaiah Thomas is on the last year of his very cheap contract, and thinks he deserves a max contract offer in the 2018 off season, which would probably run his team around $30+ million per year. This is the exact same reason they traded Avery Bradley for Marcus Morris (an objectively less valuable player than Avery Bradley). Kyrie, meanwhile, has 2 years and a player option left on his contract. They basically dodge a massive cap hit for 1 more year, and get a younger, more talented point guard to invest in for the long haul.

Isaiah Thomas is a GREAT player, but no way in hell would I be cool with giving a 29 year old 5'9" point guard (who already has injury concerns) a maxed long term contract. It's just too risky.

Well, tecnically they traded Bradley to clear cap space for Hayward. But yes, the main reasons Boston made this trade were (1) Thomas hits free agency one year sooner than Irving, (2) Irving is substantially younger and thus a better fit with the team's future, and (3) Irving at least has the chance of being an adequate defender.

Cleveland improved its chances this season and got flexibility to rebuild quicker with the Nets pick if LeBron leaves. Boston got what it wanted in positioning itself to be tops in the East starting perhaps as soon as 2019 and for years beyond that.

The cost was high. Crowder is a really useful player on a ridiculously cheap contract for the next three years. He basically has a rookie lotto pick contract but with better production. And the Nets pick is still likely to be a high lottery pick. Who knows about Zizic, but reports are at least promising on him. Basically they traded that for a longer-term replacement at PG. High price. Fair price? Maybe. But still a high price.

budwom
08-23-2017, 11:32 AM
Yeah - that's definitely a big aspect of this whole trade. A complicating factor is how apparently beloved IT was in Boston. This trade is amazing on so many levels, and further proof that the NBA refuses to be ignored at any point in the sports calendar. The NBA off-season has really become, like, another major sport...the draft, free agency, summer league, social media, crazy trades...while they are happy to be gainfully employed journalists, the NBA writers are begging for mercy, they are having a legit hard time taking vacations!

One Boston writer's take was that Kyrie is the slightly better player, he's younger and has a shorter contract, both of which are plusses....but I agree, good trade for both teams.

CDu
08-23-2017, 11:37 AM
One Boston writer's take was that Kyrie is the slightly better player, he's younger and has a shorter contract, both of which are plusses...but I agree, good trade for both teams.

He has a longer contract (by one year). Which is the plus. Thomas and Irving are likely to make about the same amount over the next 2 years and then over the next 4 years after that as well. The difference is Irving is much younger and has a chance to be better defensively. That difference may have made Ainge uncomfortable paying Thomas next summer while not having a problem paying Irving in July 2019.

kAzE
08-23-2017, 11:38 AM
Well, tecnically they traded Bradley to clear cap space for Hayward. But yes, the main reasons Boston made this trade were (1) Thomas hits free agency one year sooner than Irving, (2) Irving is substantially younger and thus a better fit with the team's future, and (3) Irving at least has the chance of being an adequate defender.

Cleveland improved its chances this season and got flexibility to rebuild quicker with the Nets pick if LeBron leaves. Boston got what it wanted in positioning itself to be tops in the East starting perhaps as soon as 2019 and for years beyond that.

The cost was high. Crowder is a really useful player on a ridiculously cheap contract for the next three years. He basically has a rookie lotto pick contract but with better production. And the Nets pick is still likely to be a high lottery pick. Who knows about Zizic, but reports are at least promising on him. Basically they traded that for a longer-term replacement at PG. High price. Fair price? Maybe. But still a high price.

You're right that reason for the timing of Bradley trade was to free up enough cap space to sign Hayward, but they only did it because Bradley was in the last year of his deal and would demand a high price tag next year, same as IT. If this wasn't the case, I'm sure they would have found another way to clear enough space.

I think the trade was mostly fair. The reason you have these assets is to land a superstar like Kyrie Irving. Jae Crowder, while a very good role player on a ludicrously great contract, plays more or less the same position as Jayson Tatum and Jaylen Brown. That was a logjam which was solved in this trade. Crowder was always on the trading block.

The pick is arguably the most valuable asset in Boston side of the trade, but it's uncertain where the pick will land. Using it to land a superstar point guard who is just about to hit his prime makes a lot of sense. Of course they could regret it if it becomes Bagley, but it's more likely going to be someone much less valuable who could take years to develop into a high level NBA player. Boston's championship window is 1-4 years from now, the team they have today is better than the team they had before the trade, and almost all of their players fit that window. I love the trade for both sides.

Philadukie
08-23-2017, 11:41 AM
If someone would have told me that Kyrie Irving would be a Celtic at the end of the playoffs this year, I would have laughed out loud in derision. Crazy, crazy offseason.

kAzE
08-23-2017, 11:51 AM
I'm very interested how Boston plays with this group, or even if they have another move or 2 to make before the season starts. Right now, they don't have a natural shooting guard OR natural power forward among their top 8-9 players, unless you count Marcus Smart as a 2, or Al Horford as a 4 (he's not, he's a perfect center for the modern NBA).

Bill Simmons predicted Brown would start at the 2. This is a bit out of position for Brown, but I can reasonably believe Brown (who many consider one of the potentially best and most versatile defenders in the league) can defend opposing 2s. He's also not bad at shooting open 3s off the catch.

I think this is how I see their rotation playing out to start the season:

PG: Irving
SG: Brown
SF: Hayward
PF: Morris
C: Horford

6: Tatum
7: Smart
8: Baynes
9: Green/Rozier/Ojeleye?

Dukehky
08-23-2017, 12:03 PM
I think this was generally a win-win for both teams. Cleveland had its hands tied since Kyrie asked to leave. Boston had its hands tied in terms of trying to get some value back for Thomas. Boston has accumulated a lot of depth, both in terms of current talent and future picks, but ultimately, there are only 240 minutes of playing time per game to be divided amongst those players.

I wonder if there was any back and forth about whether it would be the Nets pick vs. the Lakers pick that got traded. If I were a Celtics fan, I would be a bit happier about this deal if I had given up the Lakers pick instead of the Nets pick, though we will see how the ping pong balls bounce next spring.

I am a lifelong Knicks fan who really does not like the makeup of the team right now but will have a hard time rooting for the Celtics despite them having two of my favorite former Duke players.

I absolutely love Kyrie, and I think the Celtics did okay with this trade, but Cleveland COULD have made out like bandits. The Cavs got an unprotected pick, that is almost unheard of. You get that on top of a player who had a better year than Kyrie (he's not better, by any stretch of the imagination, and he had Stevens instead of Lue, but IT4 is really good), you get a 7 foot prospect who people like in Zizic, and you get a player who had a down year but provides you a 3 and D guy which is what you want if you have a team with LeBron on it.

Boston obviously gets the star to go alongside Hayward, but I still think Boston is a few years of Tatum and Brown development away from being a legitimate threat. Horford isn't a top 30 player in the league. So Smart is going to get a lot more time and he's useless on offense.

Overall, Cleveland's upside on this is higher than Boston's. IT4 is really good, and Gilbert doesn't mind spending money if they choose to resign him. Crowder is an amazing contract that you could flip (maybe even flip that unprotected pick if a star comes on the market (if PG and the Thunder aren't having a great year and they think he's going to walk comes to mind)). Then you have that unprotected pick that is probably going to fall in the top 5 even if it's less likely that they are as bad as they were last time.

I just think Boston gave up too much when you consider what it took to get George and Butler who are better two way players, even though Irving has 2 years with a third year option left on his deal.

Oh well, crazy trade. The NBA rocks.

CDu
08-23-2017, 12:31 PM
Just to be clear: Irving's option year is a player option. He's not picking that option up unless he falls apart as a player and becomes useless (which isn't at all likely). Irving is on a 2-year contract and will be a free agent the 2019 summer.

TexHawk
08-23-2017, 12:39 PM
I donít think you can really evaluate who came out ahead in this trade until we see what this Nets pick turns into.

This is the key for me. The Nets have a new and creative GM, Deangelo Russell, and a few other solid (just not spectacular) players. They also don't have an incentive to tank. While the Bulls, Pacers, Hawks, Kings, and a few others do. With a top heavy draft (4-5 guys), there will be a lot of anxiety in the Cavs front office if Brooklyn plays well.

Also, I don't see how IT helps the Cavs against GSW, at all. He might be the worst perimeter defender in the league. Crowder is good defender, but you can't run out a crunch-time 5 with Thomas and Love and expect to stop people. It's generally not smart to try to outscore the Warriors, the Cavs saw that up close.

elvis14
08-23-2017, 12:54 PM
Listening to ESPN this morning, someone was talking about the trade and said that the Cavs could come out ahead because the Nets pick could turn into a great player.....like Marvin Bagley (and Porter and a few others). That just made me smile, like last year I can't wait to see our guys play (both in the NBA and at CIS).

Add me to the list of people that think this was a decent trade for both teams and I agree that we'll really know once we see who the Cavs get with that pick.

moonpie23
08-23-2017, 12:55 PM
i'm gonna have some mixed feelings when those two teams play each other........the kyrie/Thomas duel might be epic...

Truth&Justise
08-23-2017, 01:27 PM
Got a call from an older PhiKap in NYC essentially saying "I can't believe I have to root for those (expletives) Celtics now that they have Kyrie *and* Tatum!!" I laughed at him, frustrated Knicks/Nets fan. Not having a horse in that race, I say Go Green!

Tatum is excited about the pairing also (http://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/20434361/jayson-tatum-excited-staying-boston-celtics-getting-chance-play-kyrie-irving).

From the article:

"Earlier this month, Tatum and Irving, who share an agent, traveled to the Bahamas for a vacation. Even as reports began circulating that the Cavaliers might desire a young talent like Tatum in return for Irving, the two never discussed the possibility of a deal."

"'I'm pretty sure it will be a lot of fun,' Tatum said. '[Irving is] a tremendous player. A superstar in this league.'"

DangerDevil
08-23-2017, 02:22 PM
I think Ainge tries to maximize value with all of his assests.

Whether he trades down two picks to get another lottery pick, trades a player on a valuable contract before the contract expires, trades aging superstars even if they are the face of the franchise, etc.

He tries to sell high and doesn't get bogged down in sentimental value.

I thought this article provided some good insight into Ainge's philosophy. It recounts Red Auerbach talking about supposed trades that were offered up for Bird and McHale in the late 80s, and Ainge's shock that not only were such valuable assests offered but that Red didn't make the trades.

https://www.boston.com/sports/boston-celtics/2017/08/23/three-cheers-for-danny-ainge-who-turned-assets-into-star-power

As a Celtics' fan I like the trade and I think I will like it even more in the future.

I think Kyrie makes the Celtics better immediately.

I think every asset that Ainge traded was sold high:

I like IT4 and loved watching him drive the Celtics run last season, but even if he was healthy I think it would be hard for him to replicate last season's success even if he was 100% healthy, who knows when/if his hip will fully heal.

Crowder has a great contract and added a lot to the gritty/tough makeup of the scrappy Celtics but he also kind of faded down the stretch last year. Add Hayward and Tatum to the roster and his role seemed even more dimished going forward.

Zizic may end up being great, but right now his best asset is that he is an unknown 7 footer.

The Nets pick; with Bagley reclassifying everyone is talking about how good the top of the 2018 draft will be, as mentioned earlier in the thread there is a good chance this pick isn't in the top 5. The strength of the 2018 draft appears to be big men: Bagley, Porter, Ayton, Bamba, Carter, Bridges, Williams. I hope that Duval has a season that proves otherwise but you don't see the experts throwing his name or Sexton into the mix as a top pick/transcendent player, they show them being picked around #10. So what you ask, don't forget that the Celtics still have a good chance or getting the Lakers' pick and picking between 2-5, if they pick there they still can get one of the young future changing bigs. If the Celtics still had IT4 and the Nets pick, I think they would have had to use one of the picks on a PG and "overpaid". Now with a little luck they have a PG of the future and still get one of the big men to build around.

By selling high, I think Ainge made the Celtics better next season and greatly increased their potential to be really good for the next several years. Was their risk making changes to most of the team that had the Conference's best record trading the face of the franchise, sure. But when you take a step back not only was last years Celtics team way behind the Warriors, they were way behind the Cavs in the playoffs, and if we are our honest they probably over performed and got lucky to accomplish what they did.

Just like Coach K and Duke, Ainge and the Celtics are playing for Championship Banners and I believe that this trade got them closer to number 18 and set them up for a brighter future.

SupaDave
08-23-2017, 02:49 PM
Tatum is excited about the pairing also (http://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/20434361/jayson-tatum-excited-staying-boston-celtics-getting-chance-play-kyrie-irving).

From the article:

"Earlier this month, Tatum and Irving, who share an agent, traveled to the Bahamas for a vacation. Even as reports began circulating that the Cavaliers might desire a young talent like Tatum in return for Irving, the two never discussed the possibility of a deal."

"'I'm pretty sure it will be a lot of fun,' Tatum said. '[Irving is] a tremendous player. A superstar in this league.'"

Ironically I don't see the two ISO players being able to exist together. I just don't see Kyrie and Tatum meshing b/c if the ball is in Tatum's hands - Kyrie aint getting it back.

Plus SOMEBODY has to give Hayward the ball. Their bench is weak too.

Celtics win 40 games - tops.

duke79
08-23-2017, 02:57 PM
I think Ainge tries to maximize value with all of his assests.

Whether he trades down two picks to get another lottery pick, trades a player on a valuable contract before the contract expires, trades aging superstars even if they are the face of the franchise, etc.

He tries to sell high and doesn't get bogged down in sentimental value.

I thought this article provided some good insight into Ainge's philosophy. It recounts Red Auerbach talking about supposed trades that were offered up for Bird and McHale in the late 80s, and Ainge's shock that not only were such valuable assests offered but that Red didn't make the trades.

https://www.boston.com/sports/boston-celtics/2017/08/23/three-cheers-for-danny-ainge-who-turned-assets-into-star-power

As a Celtics' fan I like the trade and I think I will like it even more in the future.

I think Kyrie makes the Celtics better immediately

I think every asset that Ainge traded was sold high:

I like IT4 and loved watching him drive the Celtics run last season, but even if he was healthy I think it would be hard for him to replicate last season's success even if he was 100% healthy, who knows when/if his hip will fully heal.

Crowder has a great contract and added a lot to the gritty/tough makeup of the scrappy Celtics but he also kind of faded down the stretch last year. Add Hayward and Tatum to the roster and his role seemed even more dimished going forward.

Zizic may end up being great, but right now his best asset is that he is an unknown 7 footer.

The Nets pick; with Bagley reclassifying everyone is talking about how good the top of the 2018 draft will be, as mentioned earlier in the thread there is a good chance this pick isn't in the top 5. The strength of the 2018 draft appears to be big men: Bagley, Porter, Ayton, Bamba, Carter, Bridges, Williams. I hope that Duval has a season that proves otherwise but you don't see the experts throwing his name or Sexton into the mix as a top pick/transcendent player, they show them being picked around #10. So what you ask, don't forget that the Celtics still have a good chance or getting the Lakers' pick and picking between 2-5, if they pick there they still can get one of the young future changing bigs. If the Celtics still had IT4 and the Nets pick, I think they would have had to use one of the picks on a PG and "overpaid". Now with a little luck they have a PG of the future and still get one of the big men to build around.

By selling high, I think Ainge made the Celtics better next season and greatly increased their potential to be really good for the next several years. Was their risk making changes to most of the team that had the Conference's best record trading the face of the franchise, sure. But when you take a step back not only was last years Celtics team way behind the Warriors, they were way behind the Cavs in the playoffs, and if we are our honest they probably over performed and got lucky to accomplish what they did.

Just like Coach K and Duke, Ainge and the Celtics are playing for Championship Banners and I believe that this trade got them closer to number 18 and set them up for a brighter future.

Thanks for your detailed analysis! You make many good points and, as a Celtics fan, I hope you're right. Time will tell but I think that this will turn out to be a good trade for the Celtics (and maybe the Cavs too).

elvis14
08-23-2017, 03:36 PM
Ironically I don't see the two ISO players being able to exist together. I just don't see Kyrie and Tatum meshing b/c if the ball is in Tatum's hands - Kyrie aint getting it back.

Plus SOMEBODY has to give Hayward the ball. Their bench is weak too.

Celtics win 40 games - tops.

Tatum, is what? 19 years old with 1 year of college ball under his belt and a bunch of years before that were he was the best scorer on the court and nobody really wanted him to give up the ball? I think he still has a little time to grow out of being a black hole and make his game more well rounded.

Can a bench with Semi on it really be called 'weak'? I think Semi could bench press 1/2 the bench! :)

Remember when people said Kyrie and LeBron couldn't play together because they both needed the ball?

tdrake51
08-23-2017, 04:16 PM
Ironically I don't see the two ISO players being able to exist together. I just don't see Kyrie and Tatum meshing b/c if the ball is in Tatum's hands - Kyrie aint getting it back.

Plus SOMEBODY has to give Hayward the ball. Their bench is weak too.

Celtics win 40 games - tops.

The Celtics won 40 games in 2015 when their starters were Smart, Bradley, Turner, Bass, and Zeller. I would say the east is worse now than it was then.

With as weak as the East is this year, I would guess between 50-55 wins.

pfrduke
08-23-2017, 04:34 PM
Celtics win 40 games - tops.

I'll happily take this bet. I'll even give you 41 games. If the Celtics finish over .500, I win; anything else you win. Any preference on stakes?

Chard
08-23-2017, 04:34 PM
I can finally cheer for Kyrie without feeling icky. Sooooo happy he's out of Cleveland.

duke79
08-23-2017, 04:35 PM
I've been reading the Boston Globe website (boston.com) for their stories on this trade; most of the writers seem to have a favorable view of the trade, from the Celtic's perspective. But they did revive the "Kyrie Irving thinks the world is flat" story again.

https://www.boston.com/sports/boston-celtics/2017/08/23/heres-why-kyrie-irving-thinks-the-earth-is-flat

Did we ever determine if he REALLY believes that?

Another interesting and somewhat ironic tidbit........Duke was playing Butler with Brad Stevens coaching, when Kyrie hurt his toe. I forgot about that.

budwom
08-23-2017, 04:47 PM
I agree with DangerDevil...Ainge was starting to get a wee bit of heat about accumulating more and more "assets." (Thank you, Nyets). Now he's deployed them in a good way. I think Stephens will have a good time with this group.

Billy Dat
08-23-2017, 04:48 PM
Celtics win 40 games - tops.

That take is so HOT it requires it's own fire department.

kAzE
08-23-2017, 05:02 PM
Celtics win 40 games - tops.

So, in other words, you think they are MUCH worse than before this off season.

The Celtics won 52 games last year. Most people believe they improved their roster by adding 2 all stars and a top 3 pick in one of the deepest drafts in memory. I don't see how it's possible they don't win more than 40 games.

Brad Stevens is too good. Tatum is NOT going to be an iso player in his first year. He's probably coming off the bench, and will be a complimentary piece to Irving and Hayward.

ChillinDuke
08-23-2017, 05:02 PM
Ironically I don't see the two ISO players being able to exist together. I just don't see Kyrie and Tatum meshing b/c if the ball is in Tatum's hands - Kyrie aint getting it back.

Plus SOMEBODY has to give Hayward the ball. Their bench is weak too.

Celtics win 40 games - tops.

LOL.

K.

- Chillin

flyingdutchdevil
08-23-2017, 05:10 PM
Yeah. I'm pissed.

Kyrie for Thomas and Crowder? Okay. Kinda a fair trade, IMO. Isaiah is a poor man's Kyrie, but they both play matador defense. Hey, at least Kyrie is 6 inches taller! But who cares when you don't even try...

Crowder is a great role player; ie the type of player who everyone wants on their team: doesn't need the ball, loves playing D, really good 3pt shooter. Basically, a poor man's Battier minus the leadership.

But that #1 Nets pick? Are you %$&# me!!!!!! That is a guaranteed top 4 pick with great chance at Bagley or Porter. WTF Ainge?!?!?!?!?!!?!?!?!?

Boston finally got fleeced. When the Cavs select Bagley/Porter, this trade will look disastrous.

Kyrie may be a superstar, but he is nowhere near a transcendent player.

Sigh...

CDu
08-23-2017, 05:14 PM
So, in other words, you think they are MUCH worse than before this off season.

The Celtics won 52 games last year. Most people believe they improved their roster by adding 2 all stars and a top 3 pick in one of the deepest drafts in memory. I don't see how it's possible they don't win more than 40 games.

Brad Stevens is too good. Tatum is NOT going to be an iso player in his first year. He's probably coming off the bench, and will be a complimentary piece to Irving and Hayward.

To be fair, they only added one All Star and swapped other All Stars. And they lost their best defender and their fourth-best player.

I definitely agree they are far better than a 40-win team. Whether they are better this year than last? I don't know.

MChambers
08-23-2017, 05:25 PM
I've been reading the Boston Globe website (boston.com) for their stories on this trade; most of the writers seem to have a favorable view of the trade, from the Celtic's perspective. But they did revive the "Kyrie Irving thinks the world is flat" story again.

https://www.boston.com/sports/boston-celtics/2017/08/23/heres-why-kyrie-irving-thinks-the-earth-is-flat

Did we ever determine if he REALLY believes that?

Another interesting and somewhat ironic tidbit....Duke was playing Butler with Brad Stevens coaching, when Kyrie hurt his toe. I forgot about that.

Did you really expect that the Globe would not cover the flat earth angle?

kAzE
08-23-2017, 05:26 PM
Yeah. I'm pissed.

Kyrie for Thomas and Crowder? Okay. Kinda a fair trade, IMO. Isaiah is a poor man's Kyrie, but they both play matador defense. Hey, at least Kyrie is 6 inches taller! But who cares when you don't even try...

Crowder is a great role player; ie the type of player who everyone wants on their team: doesn't need the ball, loves playing D, really good 3pt shooter. Basically, a poor man's Battier minus the leadership.

But that #1 Nets pick? Are you %$&# me!!!!!! That is a guaranteed top 4 pick with great chance at Bagley or Porter. WTF Ainge?!?!?!?!?!!?!?!?!?

Boston finally got fleeced. When the Cavs select Bagley/Porter, this trade will look disastrous.

Kyrie may be a superstar, but he is nowhere near a transcendent player.

Sigh...

I was wondering when you would finally chime in. Of all the Celtics fans I know, they all pretty much were in agreement that they felt Cleveland won the trade.

In my opinion, it has to be because of the sentimental value of Thomas and Crowder. I look at it objectively this way: Thomas wasn't worth much. He's on a cheap 1 year contract, and then he can leave in free agency. He's going to want way more money than he's worth after that year, which makes him a bad asset. Did you prefer to pay Thomas, and potentially relive Chicago's nightmare with Derrick Rose? Thomas and Crowder for Irving is NOT a fair trade. Not even a little.

The trade was really a 1-year rental of Thomas (who probably had the best year of his career last year), Crowder and his great contract, and a pick which may or may not be great in return for a superstar just hitting his prime. Maybe Cleveland slightly wins the trade, but they didn't fleece anyone IMO. You sold high on Thomas. His stock only goes down from here. Once you accept that, then this trade will start to look a little better.

superdave
08-23-2017, 05:33 PM
Ironically I don't see the two ISO players being able to exist together. I just don't see Kyrie and Tatum meshing b/c if the ball is in Tatum's hands - Kyrie aint getting it back.

Plus SOMEBODY has to give Hayward the ball. Their bench is weak too.

Celtics win 40 games - tops.

Always bet on Brad Stevens!

kAzE
08-23-2017, 05:36 PM
Always bet on Brad Stevens!

Wow . . . I think I just realized there is a SupaDave AND a superdave on this message board . . .

subzero02
08-23-2017, 05:43 PM
I've been reading the Boston Globe website (boston.com) for their stories on this trade; most of the writers seem to have a favorable view of the trade, from the Celtic's perspective. But they did revive the "Kyrie Irving thinks the world is flat" story again.

https://www.boston.com/sports/boston-celtics/2017/08/23/heres-why-kyrie-irving-thinks-the-earth-is-flat

Did we ever determine if he REALLY believes that?

Another interesting and somewhat ironic tidbit....Duke was playing Butler with Brad Stevens coaching, when Kyrie hurt his toe. I forgot about that.

I wish i could say the same...

superdave
08-23-2017, 05:47 PM
I like this deal for Kyrie, because the Cavs were not hateful in trading him to some random team. Paul George is in OKC because the Indy owner wanted George out of the East. Cavs did right by Kyrie. Good for them, considering no one expected much.

I am glad to see Ainge cash in some chips. The George, Butler trades must have been tough to sit out, but his patience paid off. I personally think the Nets pick is gravvy considering Boston got the #1 this year in the pick swap. How many times does lightning strike twice? Ok, so the Cavs got the #1 pick in 2013 and 2014, so it does happen. But it seems unlikely. I think the pick is projected as a 9% chance of being #1 overall.

I also like Ainge selling relatively high on Isaiah Thomas who is under-sized, about to turn 29, plays no defense, and will be demanding a max deal. I would not pay IT max money. Will be interesting to see who if anyone does next summer.

The Celtics core - plus the Lakers/Sixers pick - is nice. At some point, Horford's deal will be expiring so they can pay the draft picks (Tatum/Brown/Laker/Sixers pick). I like how they are set up with talent and cap room allocation.

For the Cavs, this is as close to great as you could hope for. Win now and have a big time draft pick next year. If all goes well, they make the Finals again. If Lebron walks next summer, they can walk from IT, trade Crowder and Love to a contender and be two steps ahead in the rebuild. That cap glut they have can be dispensed with because of this move.

brevity
08-23-2017, 06:00 PM
This feels like a fair trade at a time and circumstance when an unfair trade was expected. The Celtics treated the Cavaliers as a sane and competent trading partner, when they are neither. The Cavs should have been fleeced.

Few are talking about how this sets up the Eastern Conference next season as LeBron vs. Kyrie. Yes, I realize they may not match up against each other much, but that's never stopped the people who promote the game.

DangerDevil
08-23-2017, 06:10 PM
This feels like a fair trade at a time and circumstance when an unfair trade was expected. The Celtics treated the Cavaliers as a sane and competent trading partner, when they are neither. The Cavs should have been fleeced.

Few are talking about how this sets up the Eastern Conference next season as LeBron vs. Kyrie. Yes, I realize they may not match up against each other much, but that's never stopped the people who promote the game.

I think your first point is why more people don't think the Celtics did well making the trade.

I actually saw an article speculating that Ainge just helped resurrect the Lakers/Celtics rivalry, the author jumped a move ahead to LeBron leaving after the season for LA.

Jeffrey
08-23-2017, 06:11 PM
Few are talking about how this sets up the Eastern Conference next season as LeBron vs. Kyrie. Yes, I realize they may not match up against each other much, but that's never stopped the people who promote the game.

Kyrie may think the earth is flat, but trying to matchup against LeBron would be even more foolish.

ncexnyc
08-23-2017, 06:12 PM
It's nice to see a trade that works for both teams. I'm not sure why so many people want to always make it an either or situation, but then we see the same thing in politics these days when there is no middle ground.

Boston and Cleveland remain two of the top teams in the East and I doubt we can really say with 100% accuracy who will finish as the Eastern Conference champs.

Jeffrey
08-23-2017, 06:23 PM
Boston and Cleveland remain two of the top teams in the East and I doubt we can really say with 100% accuracy who will finish as the Eastern Conference champs.

The one with LeBron.

cato
08-23-2017, 06:50 PM
One thing Boston did: added a PG in his prime who has been to three straight Finals -- head to head versus Steph for two of them -- and won one.

As in, won one by hitting the winning shot.

DukeTrinity11
08-23-2017, 07:02 PM
Yeah. I'm pissed.

Kyrie for Thomas and Crowder? Okay. Kinda a fair trade, IMO. Isaiah is a poor man's Kyrie, but they both play matador defense. Hey, at least Kyrie is 6 inches taller! But who cares when you don't even try...

Crowder is a great role player; ie the type of player who everyone wants on their team: doesn't need the ball, loves playing D, really good 3pt shooter. Basically, a poor man's Battier minus the leadership.

But that #1 Nets pick? Are you %$&# me!!!!!! That is a guaranteed top 4 pick with great chance at Bagley or Porter. WTF Ainge?!?!?!?!?!!?!?!?!?

Boston finally got fleeced. When the Cavs select Bagley/Porter, this trade will look disastrous.

Kyrie may be a superstar, but he is nowhere near a transcendent player.

Sigh...
FDD, the Nets will not be a bottom 2 in the NBA next year, you can mark that down and take that to the bank.

The Hawks have a New York Jets like roster with literally no players that are considered above average at their position. They will be the worst team in the NBA and perhaps one of the worst in the history of the sport.

Here are some other teams that could be as bad or worse than Brooklyn:

CHI
IND
NYK
ORL
SAC
PHX

If the Cavs win a championship this year OR select MBIII/Porter/Doncic, then yes they've won this trade vs the Celtics unless he turns into a bonafide MVP-caliber player.

I just don't see either of these things happen. Brooklyn has the 4th easiest schedule in the NBA this year based on advanced projections too.

SupaDave
08-23-2017, 07:06 PM
LOL.

K.

- Chillin

Watch. And learn...


So, in other words, you think they are MUCH worse than before this off season.

The Celtics won 52 games last year. Most people believe they improved their roster by adding 2 all stars and a top 3 pick in one of the deepest drafts in memory. I don't see how it's possible they don't win more than 40 games.

Brad Stevens is too good. Tatum is NOT going to be an iso player in his first year. He's probably coming off the bench, and will be a complimentary piece to Irving and Hayward.

Stevens is good - no doubt. They will use the metrics and tell everyone where their best shot is and that whole gambit but I remember the Allen Iverson show and the only time he made the finals he had significant experienced talent around him (Mutumbo, Mckie, Snow, Bell, Geiger, Lynch, Speedy Claxton, Kevin Ollie and our very own Roshown Mcleod).

Kyrie has nothing in the works of that nature. Hayward is good but NBA 2 guards aren't exactly quaking in their Big Baller Brand shoes or worried about running behind him the whole game like Redick. After Horford, Hayward, and Tatum to me they're just young (no one makes over $6milly after Horford, Hayward and Irving - they literally have money to blow - so the future is VERY bright - just not this year.)

See below for that "weak" eastern conference...


That take is so HOT it requires it's own fire department.

But oh so on...


I'll happily take this bet. I'll even give you 41 games. If the Celtics finish over .500, I win; anything else you win. Any preference on stakes?

Give me 45 and you got a deal. I'm a steak guy. Plus it's a lousy excuse to catch up and have dinner.


The Celtics won 40 games in 2015 when their starters were Smart, Bradley, Turner, Bass, and Zeller. I would say the east is worse now than it was then.

With as weak as the East is this year, I would guess between 50-55 wins.

When the East is in the house - oh my GOD!!!

-Toronto - loaded - one word - Derozoan
-Wizards - definitely in the driver's seat - whose gonna check Bradley?
-Hawks - match up well and I love what G is doing - plus Collins will be a force. Quinn can definitely check Shane Larkin.
-Bucks - most definitely have the talent to compete and Jabari is back
-Pacers won't be a pushover - they are young and deep
-76ers will be MUCH improved - arguably the best quietest off-season of the year: Redick, Okafor, Fultz, Embid, Simmons, Splitter, Bayless, Anderson - a team built to win NOW
-the young Heat won't be pushovers after barely missing the playoffs last year
-Pistons added some much needed shooting b/c they are loaded with point guards
-and remember that the Bulls, Knicks, and Magic could very well steal some games here and there...

...and we won't even mention the Cavs. East will be MUCH tougher than you think. But wait! There's more. You do realize they've gotta play some West Coast teams too right? That's 10 losses in the bin off the jump.


Tatum, is what? 19 years old with 1 year of college ball under his belt and a bunch of years before that were he was the best scorer on the court and nobody really wanted him to give up the ball? I think he still has a little time to grow out of being a black hole and make his game more well rounded.

Can a bench with Semi on it really be called 'weak'? I think Semi could bench press 1/2 the bench! :)

Remember when people said Kyrie and LeBron couldn't play together because they both needed the ball?

Sure Tatum might grow out of it - but when they talk about Tatum they talk about Carmelo and I hope that doesn't stick. I'd like to see him turn more into a Glen Robinson.

Kyrie and Lebron didn't play together. Kyrie played WITH Lebron. Which would be a normal ball player's dream because Bron make things easier.


To be fair, they only added one All Star and swapped other All Stars. And they lost their best defender and their fourth-best player.

I definitely agree they are far better than a 40-win team. Whether they are better this year than last? I don't know.

On the money CDu. They gave away their two BEST defenders. Crowder was basically their Big Ben doing the dirty work Horford tries to finesse sometimes while chilling on the perimeter. Crowder is a poor man's version of Rodman/Big Ben that can actually shoot. In a lot of ways he was their Draymond Green.

And yep - that perimeter defense just got real shaky - so many guards ready to eat them alive. Who da hell is Shane Larkin shutting down?

SupaDave
08-23-2017, 07:07 PM
Wow . . . I think I just realized there is a SupaDave AND a superdave on this message board . . .

Both are quite legit. :)

DukeTrinity11
08-23-2017, 07:38 PM
Kyrie has nothing in the works of that nature. Hayward is good but NBA 2 guards aren't exactly quaking in their Big Baller Brand shoes or worried about running behind him the whole game like Redick. After Horford, Hayward, and Tatum to me they're just young (no one makes over $6milly after Horford, Hayward and Irving - they literally have money to blow - so the future is VERY bright - just not this year.)

See below for that "weak" eastern conference...

The Celtics starting lineup will be:

G: Irving
G: Smart
F: Hayward
F: Morris
F: Horford

You have 2 NBA All-Stars and top 5 players at their position, one of the best defensive guards in the NBA, a high quality starter and one of the most versatile big men in the NBA and a former All-Star.

What other team in the East besides the Cavs can boast this?

I think you're severely underrating how good Hayward is. He had a higher PER and RPM than Paul George did last year.

Now if the Celtics had Paul George, I'd bet you'd be singing a different tune with your preexisting biases. :D

dudog84
08-23-2017, 09:58 PM
The following is coming from someone that doesn't follow the NBA closely, so take it for what it's worth (and isn't this what online message boards are for?):

Pluses for Kyrie: He's going to arguably one of the top 2 marquee franchises and top 3 coaches in the league. He's out of the Cavs organization. He stays in the weaker East. The Celtics still have lots of assets to play with and build.

Minuses: He won't be playing with Lebron for one year...not a complete minus because LeBron will almost certainly be leaving the Cavs after next year and would have left Kyrie in a terrible situation. Also remember that Lebron will be 33 in December. Yes he's a physical specimen never before seen in the NBA, but he's been in the finals virtually every year and that's a lot of mileage, probably adds up to a couple of extra seasons. And Father Time is undefeated.

Wild card: No one is beating the Warriors next year. I don't know what their contracts situation is and how long that superteam will stay together.

I think this worked out pretty well for everyone, except perhaps LeBron, who won't beat the Warriors again this year if he even makes it to the Finals and gets 'another year older and deeper in debt (not)...'.

Biggest wild card/unknown: Where the Nets pick ends up. As long as the Nets are a lottery team, it could be #1. Or #5. Or #11. Those pesky ping pong balls.

Final wild card: Chemistry is a funny thing, and in basketball it is far more important than in any other sport.

ice-9
08-23-2017, 10:39 PM
First off, the Cavs made an outstanding trade. This has got to be the best or near the best outcome for them given the situation.

While the trade might have made them a better regular season team, they are further from the championship than they were last year.

There is no way you can win a championship with a 5'9 guard who is also the worst defender in the league scoring 29 points per game. You can win a lot of regular season games with such a guy, but it's going to be a struggle in the playoffs.

Maybe that can be overcome with superior talent elsewhere (ie LeBron). But not this year with a dominant Warriors team and its crazy dominant perimeter. IT will get roasted. I read somewhere there was like a 20 defensive rating difference with him on and off the floor against them. IT's weakness is the Warriors' strength.

So while the Cavs did great, they are further away from winning the championship. IT is not the long term answer and LeBron (and Ainge) knows this. He's gone next year, Cavs will let IT walk and then hope the Nets lose a lot of games.

The Celtics may or may not be better this year. But they are supremely well positioned for next year in an East with no challengers ex-LeBron.

The Celtics are undoubtedly more talented this year - this is a core that has a chance to win the championship, unlike previous years where the talent is workmanlike and can win a lot of regular season games but clearly lacks the potential to win it all.

The chemistry will take a while to gel and the bench is weak - this team is susceptible to injuries. But in a year or two Celtics will be more likely to win a championship than the Cavs this year.

Ainge did what he had to do take this team to the next level.

Also, Hayward is a beast. I wonder if people underestimate the guy due to the color of his skin.

MrPoon
08-23-2017, 10:40 PM
Serveral thoughts from a Cavs fan.
Cleveland did exceptionally well in this trade considering the lack of real choices in the market to get fair value for one of the best young talents in the league.

What many "pundits" and a few on this board are missing in my opinion:
KI has had the luxury of playing with LBJ who makes many players better statistically but I also think it has stunted his PG develoment. LBJ called the plays, LBJ had the ball for key moments in games. Imagine someone telling Chris Paul that would be the case early in his career.
Many are questioning KI as a front guy to the team. I don't think he wants more shots, but he doesn't want to be a little brother any more. Consider this regarding his development: KI in his career had less than half a season with K. Then he had Mike Brown, Byron Scott, David Blatt and Tyron Lue as coaches in just six years. What a frickin' mess (also part of why I think he wants out)! Working with Brad Stevens will be the best thing to happen to KI! Defense, passing, team concepts, and shot selection I suspect all improve. Anyone think Stevens will be gone in two years? That would mark the most coaching continuity KI has had.

Secondly, whoever said earlier that the Nets pick is being over valued is spot on. To make the top five or so of the lottery requires teams to tank and a lot will be. Now a days its not good enough to be bad, you have to be intentionally bad. Without a pick, the Nets have no reason to tank, just the opposite. The players and staff all want to show progress and they will. I'll take the aforementioned over on the Celts 40 win season (their offense has a chance to be top 5-8 ish) and I'll parlay that with a Nets getting a pick later than 6.

Finally, the secret behind this trade and why Danny paid so much (some say too much, I don't) is IT was a problem next year not a solution. The great year he had along with the love affair the city had with him was about to force Danny into a really bad spot. Letting a fan favorite walk for nothing or WAY over paying a short, possibly injured, probably past prime defensive liability, albeit scoring machine. Putting a max contract on IT would have negated a lot of the good the Celts had done accumulating assets (huge cap hit for a declining asset). So he had to pay EXTRA to Cleveland to take him so that Boston didn't have to deal with the contract problem the following year. The only team in the leage interested in a one year top 10 PG would be Cleveland w/o KI. Pesto, the trade works.

Edouble
08-24-2017, 12:25 AM
Ironically I don't see the two ISO players being able to exist together. I just don't see Kyrie and Tatum meshing b/c if the ball is in Tatum's hands - Kyrie aint getting it back.

Plus SOMEBODY has to give Hayward the ball. Their bench is weak too.

Celtics win 40 games - tops.

LOL, before the All Star break? Kobe and Shaq won a few championships together as a pair of ISO players.

I am excited to revisit this post in early 2018.

WillJ
08-24-2017, 07:50 AM
I love Kyrie and Tatum. I *hate* the Celtics, as in I put them on a par with UNC (shudders thinking about Isiah's turnover to Bird). Something's going to have to give.

dukelifer
08-24-2017, 08:01 AM
To be fair, they only added one All Star and swapped other All Stars. And they lost their best defender and their fourth-best player.

I definitely agree they are far better than a 40-win team. Whether they are better this year than last? I don't know.

I think the Celtics take a step back this year but are poised to be good. I think the Cavs may be about the same or slightly better- but much depends on what Rose and not Thomas can give the team. Cavs bench struggled last year in the finals. They may have some pieces now.

MChambers
08-24-2017, 08:54 AM
I love Kyrie and Tatum. I *hate* the Celtics, as in I put them on a par with UNC (shudders thinking about Isiah's turnover to Bird). Something's going to have to give.
I'm in the same quandary. I'll root for the Celtics, but it's not gong to feel good.

flyingdutchdevil
08-24-2017, 09:06 AM
I'm in the same quandary. I'll root for the Celtics, but it's not gong to feel good.

You know rooting for the Celtics means you're also rooting for the Red Sox and Pats, right? ;)

GO BOSTON!!!

superdave
08-24-2017, 09:28 AM
I think your first point is why more people don't think the Celtics did well making the trade.

I actually saw an article speculating that Ainge just helped resurrect the Lakers/Celtics rivalry, the author jumped a move ahead to LeBron leaving after the season for LA.

If you got the best player in the trade, you won the trade. Think about the NBA Finals - when was the last time a team without a top 6-7 player won it? 2004 Pistons, right? Then 1979 Sonics before that.

Any team can go out and grab role players or overpay guys. But it's rare you can grab a superstar like Kyrie heading into his prime years. Celtics paid a premium for that, as they should have. But it wasnt a huge premium because IT was a risk they shed and the Brooklyn pick is likely in the 5-6 range.

BD80
08-24-2017, 09:52 AM
You know rooting for the Celtics means you're also rooting for the Red Sox and Pats, right? ;)

GO BOSTON!!!

Hell no!

I'd (almost) root for the Cowboys over the pats

WillJ
08-24-2017, 09:54 AM
You know rooting for the Celtics means you're also rooting for the Red Sox and Pats, right? ;)

GO BOSTON!!!

I just threw up in my mouth:).

devildeac
08-24-2017, 09:56 AM
Hell no!

I'd (almost) root for the Cowboys over the pats

Having grown up an Iggles fan, I'm not sure I could ever do that. Or:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GR9j36UMVu4

SupaDave
08-24-2017, 10:41 AM
LOL, before the All Star break? Kobe and Shaq won a few championships together as a pair of ISO players.

I am excited to revisit this post in early 2018.

Did you really just try and compare Tatum/Irving to SHAQ AND KOBE? Come come now... (for the record they played in the triangle together with a stacked team - not much ISO popping)

moonpie23
08-24-2017, 10:45 AM
You know rooting for the Celtics means you're also rooting for the Red Sox and Pats, right? ;)

GO BOSTON!!!

well, that takes care of THAT.......kyrie and tatum are DEAD to me....

JasonEvans
08-24-2017, 10:56 AM
If Ainge was really smart he would have offered the same trade but with this caveat... the right to flip picks with the Cavs in the 2019 draft. I wonder if Cleveland still would have made the deal. I suspect the Cavs 2019 pick is going to be a lock to be near the top of the lottery.

Everyone seems to be saying Marcus Smart starts at the 2, but I wonder if there is a possibility Brown or Heyward start there instead. In theory, Heyward could play the 2 in a lineup that had Tatum at the 3. For a team that is supposed to struggle with rebounding, that would be a very big lineup.

-Jason "I expect Tatum to play the 3 and a 4 almost even minutes early in the year as Stevens figures out where he fits best" Evans

SupaDave
08-24-2017, 11:03 AM
The Celtics starting lineup will be:

G: Irving
G: Smart
F: Hayward
F: Morris
F: Horford

You have 2 NBA All-Stars and top 5 players at their position, one of the best defensive guards in the NBA, a high quality starter and one of the most versatile big men in the NBA and a former All-Star.

What other team in the East besides the Cavs can boast this?

I think you're severely underrating how good Hayward is. He had a higher PER and RPM than Paul George did last year.

Now if the Celtics had Paul George, I'd bet you'd be singing a different tune with your preexisting biases. :D

Hayward also had a better team than George last year and actually Paul George wouldn't sway my opinion much. He's a great player but not necessarily a dominant one. To me Hayward is a notch below that - young and improving but also fearless. His 3 point shot at nearly 40 percent keeps his value high. Horford is a great player but probably too unselfish and in my opinion spends way too much time at the 3 point line for a big not named Dirk. Morris - good role player but no one fears him on the pick and roll. Smart - great defender - but not a game changer. And you do realize they don't play the whole game right?

Again - Shane Larkin aint shutting nobody down... The drop off is terrible after that lineup - which is basically all they have. Who is the back up center? Who is the gritty rebounder? Literally ONE injury kills this squad.

CDu
08-24-2017, 11:04 AM
If Ainge was really smart he would have offered the same trade but with this caveat... the right to flip picks with the Cavs in the 2019 draft. I wonder if Cleveland still would have made the deal. I suspect the Cavs 2019 pick is going to be a lock to be near the top of the lottery.

Everyone seems to be saying Marcus Smart starts at the 2, but I wonder if there is a possibility Brown or Heyward start there instead. In theory, Heyward could play the 2 in a lineup that had Tatum at the 3. For a team that is supposed to struggle with rebounding, that would be a very big lineup.

-Jason "I expect Tatum to play the 3 and a 4 almost even minutes early in the year as Stevens figures out where he fits best" Evans

Eh, I don't know about that. They'll still have Kevin Love (a really good player overshadowed by James and Irving), Tristan Thompson, and possibly Isaiah Thomas. Plus they'll have whatever they get from the Nets pick. That's not likely to be a bottom of the East team.

Now, if they don't re-sign Thomas and decide to trade Love? Then, yeah, they are probably bottom of the barrel.

CDu
08-24-2017, 11:12 AM
When the East is in the house - oh my GOD!!!

-Toronto - loaded - one word - Derozoan
-Wizards - definitely in the driver's seat - whose gonna check Bradley?
-Hawks - match up well and I love what G is doing - plus Collins will be a force. Quinn can definitely check Shane Larkin.
-Bucks - most definitely have the talent to compete and Jabari is back
-Pacers won't be a pushover - they are young and deep
-76ers will be MUCH improved - arguably the best quietest off-season of the year: Redick, Okafor, Fultz, Embid, Simmons, Splitter, Bayless, Anderson - a team built to win NOW
-the young Heat won't be pushovers after barely missing the playoffs last year
-Pistons added some much needed shooting b/c they are loaded with point guards
-and remember that the Bulls, Knicks, and Magic could very well steal some games here and there...

Who da hell is Shane Larkin shutting down?

I can't tell if this is intended as performance art or if you are serious, so apologies if I mistook this as serious. You might want to check out Atlanta's roster. They are likely to be a lottery team in the East this year. They really have only one solid veteran starter (Schroder), to go along with a mid-lottery pick (Collins). Millsap, Howard, and Hardaway Jr are all gone, replaced by Belinelli, Miles Plumlee, and Dedmon.

And why the continual references to Shane Larkin? He might be their 3rd-string PG.

MChambers
08-24-2017, 12:01 PM
well, that takes care of THAT....kyrie and tatum are DEAD to me...

Pretty much nails it.

flyingdutchdevil
08-24-2017, 12:12 PM
Haters gonna hate

SupaDave
08-24-2017, 12:39 PM
I can't tell if this is intended as performance art or if you are serious, so apologies if I mistook this as serious. You might want to check out Atlanta's roster. They are likely to be a lottery team in the East this year. They really have only one solid veteran starter (Schroder), to go along with a mid-lottery pick (Collins). Millsap, Howard, and Hardaway Jr are all gone, replaced by Belinelli, Miles Plumlee, and Dedmon.

And why the continual references to Shane Larkin? He might be their 3rd-string PG.

Oh it's very serious home skillet and b/c Shane Larkin adds nothing to the Celtics but there is some thought that somehow the Celtics are some juggernaut - which they are not. I didn't say the Hawks were a playoff team - but they are NOT a horrible team - and they will likely get some good wins this year.

The phrase was match up well b/c quite frankly the Celtics have no one who can guard Collins. Schroder will most definitely get his. Bazemore is likely to see an uptick in minutes. Plumlee is mobile enough to follow Horford around. Bellini and Dorsey at the two. They will be competitive. Hawks have a lot of room to make noise next off-season.

The NBA is all about match-ups. All the Hawks gotta do is steal a couple of wins here and there.

CDu
08-24-2017, 12:45 PM
Oh it's very serious home skillet and b/c Shane Larkin adds nothing to the Celtics but there is some thought that somehow the Celtics are some juggernaut - which they are not. I didn't say the Hawks were a playoff team - but they are NOT a horrible team - and they will likely get some good wins this year.

The phrase was match up well b/c quite frankly the Celtics have no one who can guard Collins. Schroder will most definitely get his. Bazemore is likely to see an uptick in minutes. Plumlee is mobile enough to follow Horford around. Bellini and Dorsey at the two. They will be competitive. Hawks have a lot of room to make noise next off-season.

The NBA is all about match-ups. All the Hawks gotta do is steal a couple of wins here and there.

Yeah, no. The Hawks aren't going to be cause for concern for Boston getting to 40 wins this year. It's really not close.

kAzE
08-24-2017, 12:54 PM
The phrase was match up well b/c quite frankly the Celtics have no one who can guard Collins. Schroder will most definitely get his. Bazemore is likely to see an uptick in minutes. Plumlee is mobile enough to follow Horford around. Bellini and Dorsey at the two. They will be competitive. Hawks have a lot of room to make noise next off-season.

The NBA is all about match-ups. All the Hawks gotta do is steal a couple of wins here and there.

Marcus Morris? Morris is a very good defender, and some people around the league believe that he's one of the best individual defenders of LeBron James (https://www.boston.com/sports/boston-celtics/2017/07/08/heres-one-reason-celtics-fans-should-be-excited-about-marcus-morris). There's a reason the Celtics were so interested in acquiring Morris.

I think a guy who has the ability to slow down LeBron can do a decent job on a rookie.

JasonEvans
08-24-2017, 02:44 PM
Oh it's very serious home skillet and b/c Shane Larkin adds nothing to the Celtics but there is some thought that somehow the Celtics are some juggernaut - which they are not. I didn't say the Hawks were a playoff team - but they are NOT a horrible team - and they will likely get some good wins this year.

The phrase was match up well b/c quite frankly the Celtics have no one who can guard Collins. Schroder will most definitely get his. Bazemore is likely to see an uptick in minutes. Plumlee is mobile enough to follow Horford around. Bellini and Dorsey at the two. They will be competitive. Hawks have a lot of room to make noise next off-season.

The NBA is all about match-ups. All the Hawks gotta do is steal a couple of wins here and there.

As is well known around these parts, I am a huge Hawks fan. I have had season tickets for many years in the 5th row, center court. No one enjoyed the magical 2015 season more than me.

But you have drunk the Hawks kool-aid in a big, big way if you think they are anything but bottom feeders in the weak East, my friend. The Hawks are going to be pretty close to awful this year (and I am fine with that as I want a high lottery pick). I strongly suspect Collins and Plumlee won't even start for this team (Hawks want to see what Dwayne Deadmon has at C and I'll be shocked if Ersan Ilyasova isn't the starting PF unless he gets traded). Schroder is the only player on the team right now who is an above average NBA starter (just barely). This is a club designed to win about 20 games... and I'm hoping they don't even get there.

No offense, but the notion that the Hawks would have any impact on Boston's ability to win games is sorta crazy. There are certainly reasons one could be pessimistic about Boston being better in 2018 than they were in 2017 (chemistry being the biggest of them), but the Hawks ain't part of that equation.

-Jason "I am friends with a very senior member of the Hawks organization and he said he was an optimist in thinking they will win 25" Evans

toooskies
08-24-2017, 04:00 PM
If you got the best player in the trade, you won the trade. Think about the NBA Finals - when was the last time a team without a top 6-7 player won it? 2004 Pistons, right? Then 1979 Sonics before that.

Any team can go out and grab role players or overpay guys. But it's rare you can grab a superstar like Kyrie heading into his prime years. Celtics paid a premium for that, as they should have. But it wasnt a huge premium because IT was a risk they shed and the Brooklyn pick is likely in the 5-6 range.

So Cleveland won the trade? Isaiah Thomas was 2nd team All-NBA, Kyrie wasn't. IT was a top-10 guy, by just about any definition. You can argue that IT was inflated by a lack of star power on the Celts and Kyrie doesn't get to shine because of Lebron and Love's presence, but IT got it done last year. Watching the Cavs, I can tell you he has plenty of games where he takes a ton of bad shots, too-- Cleveland lost 30 games last year. KI might turn into the next James Harden in Boston, or he might just be exactly what Isaiah Thomas was while there. But because IT got hurt in the playoffs, and Kyrie had a couple good games in the Finals, KI is suddenly the better player?

The performance of both guys, at this moment in their careers, is pretty even. Kyrie fits the Celtics circumstances better, with a longer contract and longer presumed future; IT fits the Cavs' circumstances better, even if it is just so they can blow things up all at once. IT may have less time left in his career, but it's not out of the range of possibilities that he outplays Kyrie for the foreseeable future. Likely? Eh, probably not. But Kyrie has an injury history, too.

And yes, I'm just a Cavs fan trying to talk myself into this trade.

COYS
08-24-2017, 04:05 PM
As is well known around these parts, I am a huge Hawks fan. I have had season tickets for many years in the 5th row, center court. No one enjoyed the magical 2015 season more than me.

But you have drunk the Hawks kool-aid in a big, big way if you think they are anything but bottom feeders in the weak East, my friend. The Hawks are going to be pretty close to awful this year (and I am fine with that as I want a high lottery pick). I strongly suspect Collins and Plumlee won't even start for this team (Hawks want to see what Dwayne Deadmon has at C and I'll be shocked if Ersan Ilyasova isn't the starting PF unless he gets traded). Schroder is the only player on the team right now who is an above average NBA starter (just barely). This is a club designed to win about 20 games... and I'm hoping they don't even get there.

No offense, but the notion that the Hawks would have any impact on Boston's ability to win games is sorta crazy. There are certainly reasons one could be pessimistic about Boston being better in 2018 than they were in 2017 (chemistry being the biggest of them), but the Hawks ain't part of that equation.

-Jason "I am friends with a very senior member of the Hawks organization and he said he was an optimist in thinking they will win 25" Evans

The only caveat I'd add to this is that Coach Bud is really good. I think the Hawks will have enough games with hot shooting and good ball movement to steal a couple of surprise wins. But overall, I totally agree. The Hawks are bad. They will get a high lottery pick (which I'm super happy about). If they do get to that optimistic projection of 25 wins, I think the organization can consider the season a major success, actually. And if Boston loses a single game to Atlanta, it should absolutely be considered an embarrassment for the Celtics.

SupaDave
08-24-2017, 04:28 PM
As is well known around these parts, I am a huge Hawks fan. I have had season tickets for many years in the 5th row, center court. No one enjoyed the magical 2015 season more than me.

But you have drunk the Hawks kool-aid in a big, big way if you think they are anything but bottom feeders in the weak East, my friend. The Hawks are going to be pretty close to awful this year (and I am fine with that as I want a high lottery pick). I strongly suspect Collins and Plumlee won't even start for this team (Hawks want to see what Dwayne Deadmon has at C and I'll be shocked if Ersan Ilyasova isn't the starting PF unless he gets traded). Schroder is the only player on the team right now who is an above average NBA starter (just barely). This is a club designed to win about 20 games... and I'm hoping they don't even get there.

No offense, but the notion that the Hawks would have any impact on Boston's ability to win games is sorta crazy. There are certainly reasons one could be pessimistic about Boston being better in 2018 than they were in 2017 (chemistry being the biggest of them), but the Hawks ain't part of that equation.

-Jason "I am friends with a very senior member of the Hawks organization and he said he was an optimist in thinking they will win 25" Evans

They play the Celts four times. The NBA is a fickle beast with injuries and DNPs. All they gotta win is one...

ice-9
08-24-2017, 10:31 PM
So Cleveland won the trade? Isaiah Thomas was 2nd team All-NBA, Kyrie wasn't. IT was a top-10 guy, by just about any definition. You can argue that IT was inflated by a lack of star power on the Celts and Kyrie doesn't get to shine because of Lebron and Love's presence, but IT got it done last year. Watching the Cavs, I can tell you he has plenty of games where he takes a ton of bad shots, too-- Cleveland lost 30 games last year. KI might turn into the next James Harden in Boston, or he might just be exactly what Isaiah Thomas was while there. But because IT got hurt in the playoffs, and Kyrie had a couple good games in the Finals, KI is suddenly the better player?

The performance of both guys, at this moment in their careers, is pretty even. Kyrie fits the Celtics circumstances better, with a longer contract and longer presumed future; IT fits the Cavs' circumstances better, even if it is just so they can blow things up all at once. IT may have less time left in his career, but it's not out of the range of possibilities that he outplays Kyrie for the foreseeable future. Likely? Eh, probably not. But Kyrie has an injury history, too.

And yes, I'm just a Cavs fan trying to talk myself into this trade.

In the regular season they are comparable players.

In the playoffs Kyrie clearly has an edge. I don't have the stats on hand but I'm certain they will back me up.

IT is 5'9 and once the other team cares enough to design a defense around that there's less IT can do. Also, while Kyrie can step up his defense during big games, IT is simply limited due to height.

Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15
08-24-2017, 10:37 PM
In the regular season they are comparable players.

In the playoffs Kyrie clearly has an edge. I don't have the stats on hand but I'm certain they will back me up.

IT is 5'9 and once the other team cares enough to design a defense around that there's less IT can do. Also, while Kyrie can step up his defense during big games, IT is simply limited due to height.

You can't build a defense around Mr. 5'9 when he is in the Cavs.

drummerdevil
08-25-2017, 12:43 AM
Ask Muggsy Boughes how much height affects defense. Which Duke great was afraid of him again?

subzero02
08-25-2017, 02:09 AM
Ask Muggsy Boughes how much height affects defense. Which Duke great was afraid of him again?

I'm not sure which Duke player you are referring to but he was probably much more terrified of Muggsy Bogues.


BTW, the "Baltimore Boys" documentary about the Dunbar high school basketball team(greatest high school team of all time) is soooooooo amazing. I guess my opinion about the documentary was skewed because I knew who most of the star players were but I had no idea they were on the same high school team. It brought back some troubling childhood memories about Reggie Lewis( who was on the Dunbar team and starred for the Celtics) and also about Len Bias( who was drafted by the Celtics several years before Reggie's death).

NSDukeFan
08-25-2017, 08:25 AM
In the regular season they are comparable players.

In the playoffs Kyrie clearly has an edge. I don't have the stats on hand but I'm certain they will back me up.

IT is 5'9 and once the other team cares enough to design a defense around that there's less IT can do. Also, while Kyrie can step up his defense during big games, IT is simply limited due to height.

With LeBron on the team, most teams won't be designing a defense around Thomas.

Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15
08-25-2017, 09:03 AM
With LeBron on the team, most teams won't be designing a defense around Thomas.

That was my point above. Say what you will, but depending on who is on the floor for the Cavs, IT will rarely if ever be the focus of the defense.

Billy Dat
08-25-2017, 09:53 AM
In the regular season they are comparable players.

In the playoffs Kyrie clearly has an edge. I don't have the stats on hand but I'm certain they will back me up.

IT is 5'9 and once the other team cares enough to design a defense around that there's less IT can do. Also, while Kyrie can step up his defense during big games, IT is simply limited due to height.

The argument that seems the most persuasive is the "big moment on the big stage" argument. The NBA regular season and the NBA playoffs are two entirely different stages, and the Finals is another notch up. Kyrie has proven, that on the biggest stages, he shines. Forget defense for a moment, when a team in a big playoff spot needs someone to step up and win a game on offense, by scoring 40 while the entire other team is draped all over him, or by having the stones and skills to hit the big bucket, Kyrie has proven to be able to do so. There are not many players in the NBA, in their prime, who can claim the same - that they have done it in the playoffs and finals. Kawhi may be the only other guy who fits that description, assuming Lebron is past his prime (although one may argue that he isn't). I think, ultimately, that's what the Celtics bought...a playoff stud/closer. They'll count on Brad Stevens to get them the wins they need for a good playoff seeding.

kAzE
08-25-2017, 10:16 AM
With LeBron on the team, most teams won't be designing a defense around Thomas.

I don't think it's really about "designing a defense around" a player. Defense is purely reactionary. You can have a gameplan on how to you want to defend certain players, but you can't decide who on the floor is defending a play the same way you can design an offense. The opposing offense chooses who they want to involve in the play.

For example, if Isaiah Thomas and Kevin Love are on the floor, the opposing team is going to run that pair mercilessly through P&R after P&R because neither of them are very good defensively, and most of the time, really good pick & roll players like Kyrie and Steph Curry are going to find a mismatch or some other way to exploit that weakness.

The Cavs really need to figure that particular problem out before the 2018 playoffs. Having Love and Thomas on the floor at the same time is going to be pretty untenable against good playoff teams.

Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15
08-25-2017, 10:20 AM
I don't think it's really about "designing a defense around" a player. Defense is purely reactionary. You can have a gameplan on how to you want to defend certain players, but you can't decide who on the floor is defending a play the same way you can design an offense. The opposing offense chooses who they want to involve in the play.

For example, if Isaiah Thomas and Kevin Love are on the floor, the opposing team is going to run that pair mercilessly through P&R after P&R because neither of them are very good defensively, and most of the time, really good pick & roll players like Kyrie and Steph Curry are going to find a mismatch or some other way to exploit that weakness.

The Cavs really need to figure that particular problem out before the 2018 playoffs. Having Love and Thomas on the floor at the same time is going to be pretty untenable against good playoff teams.

I agree with your points, but the post we were both responding to was focused on the other end of the floor, and defenses locking onto the diminutive PG. This created problems for Isaiah in Boston, but he will certainly have more wiggle room when sharing the offensive end of the court with Lebron.

flyingdutchdevil
08-25-2017, 10:26 AM
I don't think it's really about "designing a defense around" a player. Defense is purely reactionary. You can have a gameplan on how to you want to defend certain players, but you can't decide who on the floor is defending a play the same way you can design an offense. The opposing offense chooses who they want to involve in the play.

For example, if Isaiah Thomas and Kevin Love are on the floor, the opposing team is going to run that pair mercilessly through P&R after P&R because neither of them are very good defensively, and most of the time, really good pick & roll players like Kyrie and Steph Curry are going to find a mismatch or some other way to exploit that weakness.

The Cavs really need to figure that particular problem out before the 2018 playoffs. Having Love and Thomas on the floor at the same time is going to be pretty untenable against good playoff teams.

How is that different than Love and Kyrie? Kyrie is a bad defender, and it showed in the playoffs this year. The only time I've seen Kyrie play decent defense is in the 2016 Playoffs. I think it was a combination of effort, Lebron screaming in Kyrie's ear, and some luck (guarding an injured Curry helps). Kyrie isn't Thomas-bad on defense, but he's a Hyundai to Thomas's Kia.

kAzE
08-25-2017, 10:31 AM
How is that different than Love and Kyrie? Kyrie is a bad defender, and it showed in the playoffs this year. The only time I've seen Kyrie play decent defense is in the 2016 Playoffs. I think it was a combination of effort, Lebron screaming in Kyrie's ear, and some luck (guarding an injured Curry helps). Kyrie isn't Thomas-bad on defense, but he's a Hyundai to Thomas's Kia.

It's not that much different, but at least Kyrie was capable of playing defense when properly motivated. Thomas can't do that. The Cavs' defense sucked. Now it's even worse. Jae Crowder is a slight upgrade over Shumpert, but the Thomas/Love combo is just no bueno.

I actually think Brad Stevens might coach Kyrie into becoming a passable defensive player, rather than a dumpster fire of indifference. His issue is effort. IT's problem is size. One is teachable, the other is not.

LasVegas
08-25-2017, 10:47 AM
All of this talk about the celtics vs the cavs really doesn't even matter. Not when you have to play the western conference all stars in the finals. Maybe if the Celtics and cavs could combine their teams...

flyingdutchdevil
08-25-2017, 10:53 AM
All of this talk about the celtics vs the cavs really doesn't even matter. Not when you have to play the western conference all stars in the finals. Maybe if the Celtics and cavs could combine their teams...

The Dubs would still have a better starting 5.

kAzE
08-25-2017, 10:55 AM
All of this talk about the celtics vs the cavs really doesn't even matter. Not when you have to play the western conference all stars in the finals. Maybe if the Celtics and cavs could combine their teams...

I heard a pretty good Game of Thrones analogy to all this:

Basically the Warriors are the White Walkers, just laying low and staying out of the spotlight in the offseason while the Cavs, Celtics, Rockets, and Thunder are all making big moves and squabbling over the Iron Throne.

Nobody has forgotten that the Warriors are still the Big Bad.

Realistically, the Celtics aren't going to beat the Warriors, and probably not even the Cavs in 2018. It's 2020 and beyond that has me excited. Jaylen Brown and Jayson Tatum are just so young, they are probably 5 or 6 years away from their peaks. The Warriors are the team to beat for the next 3-4 years, but after that, I think the Celtics have as good a chance as anyone of becoming that team.

ice-9
08-25-2017, 11:06 AM
With LeBron on the team, most teams won't be designing a defense around Thomas.

I would. LeBron is an extraordinary player -- IMO the best in the world -- but he's not like a Westbrook. He's an all-around player, not an offensive juggernaut.

I would shut down IT and frustrate him to take ill-advised shots; while forcing LeBron to try and become Westbrook which he doesn't really like to do.

That's how I would do it in NBA2K anyway. :D

BD80
08-25-2017, 11:10 AM
I agree with your points, but the post we were both responding to was focused on the other end of the floor, and defenses locking onto the diminutive PG. This created problems for Isaiah in Boston, but he will certainly have more wiggle room when sharing the offensive end of the court with Lebron.

But defenses only have to guard one ball. Without the ball, IT isn't that dangerous.

Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15
08-25-2017, 01:30 PM
But defenses only have to guard one ball. Without the ball, IT isn't that dangerous.

Sure. But it doesn't change the fact that Thomas will be freed up immensely by the fact that defenses have to find LBJ first every time down the court, and that Lebron can bring the ball into the front court.

He won't see many double-teams collapse on him next year.

JayZee
08-25-2017, 02:53 PM
Sure. But it doesn't change the fact that Thomas will be freed up immensely by the fact that defenses have to find LBJ first every time down the court, and that Lebron can bring the ball into the front court.

He won't see many double-teams collapse on him next year.

I think the bigger issue is what was posed above. NBA offenses are ruthless is isolating the weak spots in a defense. The Cavs 2016 win was all about finding an injury hobbled Curry every time they came down the floor. For the 2018 Cavs, they will have IT and/or Love on the floor almost every possession. Even though Love has become more serviceable, who does IT check? If they get by Boston/Washington and get the Warriors again, either Curry or Klay will have a field day.

ChillinDuke
08-25-2017, 03:02 PM
How is that different than Love and Kyrie? Kyrie is a bad defender, and it showed in the playoffs this year. The only time I've seen Kyrie play decent defense is in the 2016 Playoffs. I think it was a combination of effort, Lebron screaming in Kyrie's ear, and some luck (guarding an injured Curry helps). Kyrie isn't Thomas-bad on defense, but he's a Hyundai to Thomas's Kia.

That's incredibly insulting.

The good people at Kia work hard.

- Chillin :rolleyes:

Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15
08-25-2017, 03:13 PM
I think the bigger issue is what was posed above. NBA offenses are ruthless is isolating the weak spots in a defense. The Cavs 2016 win was all about finding an injury hobbled Curry every time they came down the floor. For the 2018 Cavs, they will have IT and/or Love on the floor almost every possession. Even though Love has become more serviceable, who does IT check? If they get by Boston/Washington and get the Warriors again, either Curry or Klay will have a field day.

You are absolutely correct. Except that the original post that I was referring to was specifically addressing when IT is on offense, not defense, and how his size is a liability when defenses are keying on him.

Yes yes yes, we can all agree that Thomas will have lots of challenges on defense, especially if they are fortunate to meet the Warriors in the finals. The counter-point I was making was that while yes, on the Celtics, Thomas was the focal point of the defense and his stature made it difficult to overcome that, this upcoming season on the Cavs, he will be liberated from this, as he will not be the sole ball-handler bringing the ball upcourt, and no defense is going to look at the Cavs and say "we have to lock down on IT."

For what it's worth, I think defensively Kyrie is a small upgrade from IT - based mostly on his larger size. Neither one is in any danger of winning awards for their defense, but Kyrie has shown at times that he can zone in and make a key play on defense from time to time.

JayZee
08-25-2017, 03:25 PM
You are absolutely correct. Except that the original post that I was referring to was specifically addressing when IT is on offense, not defense, and how his size is a liability when defenses are keying on him.

Yes yes yes, we can all agree that Thomas will have lots of challenges on defense, especially if they are fortunate to meet the Warriors in the finals. The counter-point I was making was that while yes, on the Celtics, Thomas was the focal point of the defense and his stature made it difficult to overcome that, this upcoming season on the Cavs, he will be liberated from this, as he will not be the sole ball-handler bringing the ball upcourt, and no defense is going to look at the Cavs and say "we have to lock down on IT."

For what it's worth, I think defensively Kyrie is a small upgrade from IT - based mostly on his larger size. Neither one is in any danger of winning awards for their defense, but Kyrie has shown at times that he can zone in and make a key play on defense from time to time.

And still he was pretty successful in the playoffs. But I get what you are saying, for sure.

I did however read that Brad S did a great job catering to IT's strengths, in particular by utilizing lots of hand offs. Now I don't watch the NBA much, so I can't comment. But it seems that it's definitely possible that IT struggles NOT being the focal point and having an offense that caters to him completely.

cato
08-25-2017, 04:13 PM
You are absolutely correct. Except that the original post that I was referring to was specifically addressing when IT is on offense, not defense, and how his size is a liability when defenses are keying on him.

Was size the issue? I thought the question was whether IT4 could out-perform (or equal) Kyrie on offense in the playoffs and finals.

I suppose he could, but he will have to prove it. Kyrie has consistently delivered on offense in both the Conference Finals and the Finals. IT4 has not yet shown he can do what Kyrie has already done at the highest stage game in, game out.

God I love this trade.

Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15
08-25-2017, 05:14 PM
Was size the issue? I thought the question was whether IT4 could out-perform (or equal) Kyrie on offense in the playoffs and finals.

I suppose he could, but he will have to prove it. Kyrie has consistently delivered on offense in both the Conference Finals and the Finals. IT4 has not yet shown he can do what Kyrie has already done at the highest stage game in, game out.

God I love this trade.

Yes, Kyrie has proven more lethal under pressure, but to the point I was responding to, Kyrie didn't have defenses keying on him either.

The simplest way to look at this is that they have rather remarkably similar games, and it will be interesting to see how each fares on the other's old team.

cato
08-25-2017, 05:26 PM
Yes, Kyrie has proven more lethal under pressure, but to the point I was responding to, Kyrie didn't have defenses keying on him either.

The simplest way to look at this is that they have rather remarkably similar games, and it will be interesting to see how each fares on the other's old team.

Yep. I can't remember another trade that juiced my interest in an upcoming season as much as this one.

kAzE
08-25-2017, 05:28 PM
Yes, Kyrie has proven more lethal under pressure, but to the point I was responding to, Kyrie didn't have defenses keying on him either.

The simplest way to look at this is that they have rather remarkably similar games, and it will be interesting to see how each fares on the other's old team.

To me, it's rather simple. IT in all likelihood had his peak year last year. Undersized players fall off rather quickly after age 30. That's generally when injuries and general decline in explosiveness and speed start catching up to a player. Kyrie hasn't even hit his peak yet. He likely still has significant room to improve, and he's also not undersized. That's the major reason why I thought this trade wasn't as lopsided as Boston fans are making it out to be.

cato
08-25-2017, 05:56 PM
To me, it's rather simple. IT in all likelihood had his peak year last year. Undersized players fall off rather quickly after age 30. That's generally when injuries and general decline in explosiveness and speed start catching up to a player. Kyrie hasn't even hit his peak yet. He likely still has significant room to improve, and he's also not undersized. That's the major reason why I thought this trade wasn't as lopsided as Boston fans are making it out to be.

Wait, we aren't listening to Boston fans about this are we? Next we will be listening to Knicks fans.

BD80
08-25-2017, 06:19 PM
... Next we will be listening to Knicks fans.

That's really difficult, the wind up there on the bridges makes it tough to hear anything. Although fewer have been climbing onto the railings since Phil left.

Eternal Outlaw
08-25-2017, 11:20 PM
Adrian Wojnarowski‏Verified account @wojespn 3m3 minutes ago
As one source involved in the process involving Thomas' medical clearance told ESPN late Friday night, "It's a very sensitive situation."

Adrian Wojnarowski‏Verified account @wojespn 5m5 minutes ago
Thomas traveled to Cleveland, took exam and flew back out of town, sources said. All players must pass physical, or a deal can be voided.

Adrian Wojnarowski‏Verified account @wojespn 9m9 minutes ago
Sources: After Isaiah Thomas underwent physical today, Cavs still evaluating injured hip and weighing options w/ completion of Irving deal.

BigZ
08-25-2017, 11:45 PM
If this trade gets called off both teams get screwed. Cans lose a top pick and still have to trade Kyrie and will get low balled. Celtics stuck with injured and possibly upset Thomas

Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15
08-26-2017, 06:23 AM
If this trade gets called off both teams get screwed. Cans lose a top pick and still have to trade Kyrie and will get low balled. Celtics stuck with injured and possibly upset Thomas

Yes, this is true. But the Cavs are even more screwed if they ignore red flags on the physical.

For a trade that has sparked so much conversation, imagine how much more talk will happen if there's a massive "CNTRL-Z."

dukelifer
08-26-2017, 08:58 AM
Yes, this is true. But the Cavs are even more screwed if they ignore red flags on the physical.

For a trade that has sparked so much conversation, imagine how much more talk will happen if there's a massive "CNTRL-Z."

My guess is that the MRIs show damage. If IT has not started running yet as it has been reported- I would be very concerned. The season starts in two months. It could be a lingering injury and the playoff rigors could simply make it worse.

Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15
08-26-2017, 10:39 AM
My guess is that the MRIs show damage. If IT has not started running yet as it has been reported- I would be very concerned. The season starts in two months. It could be a lingering injury and the playoff rigors could simply make it worse.

For an NBA off-season that has been riddled with drama, this would seem an appropriate cap: the negated superstar trade.

kAzE
08-26-2017, 01:07 PM
I would be shocked if the trade were cancelled, due to the situation. Boston has more to lose if the trade doesn't go through. They might have to give up another pick . . .

Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15
08-26-2017, 03:01 PM
I would be shocked if the trade were cancelled, due to the situation. Boston has more to lose if the trade doesn't go through. They might have to give up another pick . . .

Sure, but that's just the inverse of stating that the Cavs have more to lose if the trade does go through and Thomas is injured. If the trade is voided, the C's have an injured IT rather than a healthy Irving.

It is incumbent upon the Cavs to do their due diligence.

gam7
08-26-2017, 03:17 PM
What are the rules on evaluating physicals? What prevents Cleveland from gaming the situation?

Can those Isiah jersey burners also hit CNTL-Z?

kAzE
08-26-2017, 03:48 PM
Sure, but that's just the inverse of stating that the Cavs have more to lose if the trade does go through and Thomas is injured. If the trade is voided, the C's have an injured IT rather than a healthy Irving.

It is incumbent upon the Cavs to do their due diligence.

I meant the Celtics have more to lose because IT would be very unhappy with the organization. Kyrie has no reason to beef with the Cavs, as they are trying to trade him as he requested.

DangerDevil
08-26-2017, 05:20 PM
What are the rules on evaluating physicals? What prevents Cleveland from gaming the situation?

Can those Isiah jersey burners also hit CNTL-Z?


Decent breakdown of the process by SI:
https://www.si.com/nba/2017/08/26/isaiah-thomas-hip-injury-void-cavaliers-celtics-trade-kyrie-irving

DangerDevil
08-26-2017, 05:22 PM
I would be shocked if the trade were cancelled, due to the situation. Boston has more to lose if the trade doesn't go through. They might have to give up another pick . . .

If the NBA allowed the trading of conditional draft picks that seems like that would be the perfect solution, but I think that is only allowed in the NFL.

rocketeli
08-26-2017, 08:13 PM
Once you know someone has decided to hire you, that's when you start negotiating for the perks...same thing for the Cavs, they are thinking that the Celtics have decided they need this deal, and are using an injury they already knew about to try and extract a little more. If I were Danny Ainge, I would say, nope, take it or leave it because there are plenty of decent point guards out there (Tyus Jones or Quinn Cook, anyone?) but the Cavs have to trade Irving (I'm assuming here that he has exercised a trade clause in his contract--which the Cavs organization hadagreed to and now want to malign him by saying he "demanded it") As you can tell, I think the Cavs management is pretty slimy.

ice-9
08-27-2017, 06:59 AM
Exactly. Hard to believe that the Celtics hadn't done a check-up with IT and shared those results. And if not, if I was the Cavs would have demanded one prior to agreeing to the trade.

Indoor66
08-27-2017, 07:57 AM
Exactly. Hard to believe that the Celtics hadn't done a check-up with IT and shared those results. And if not, if I was the Cavs would have demanded one prior to agreeing to the trade.

Buyers remorse strikes again.

Troublemaker
08-27-2017, 08:43 AM
Even if you take IT (and his one year remaining) out of the equation, could the Cavs really get much more than the Nets pick, Crowder (3-and-D on a nice contract), and Zizic? I don't think so.

DangerDevil
08-27-2017, 10:18 AM
Even if you take IT (and his one year remaining) out of the equation, could the Cavs really get much more than the Nets pick, Crowder (3-and-D on a nice contract), and Zizic? I don't think so.

That seems to consensus.

https://www.cbssports.com/nba/news/cavs-ask-for-further-compensation-in-kyrie-trade-and-theyre-playing-with-fire/

https://sports.yahoo.com/reports-celtics-may-play-hardball-125306558.html

drummerdevil
08-27-2017, 10:33 AM
What are the rules on evaluating physicals? What prevents Cleveland from gaming the situation?

Can those Isiah jersey burners also hit CNTL-Z?

Did you see that one video? They're trying

BD80
08-27-2017, 02:38 PM
Do we put a question mark at the end of the thread title?

BigZ
08-27-2017, 05:41 PM
Even if you take IT (and his one year remaining) out of the equation, could the Cavs really get much more than the Nets pick, Crowder (3-and-D on a nice contract), and Zizic? I don't think so.

Prob not but wouldn't they need IT in the deal to make the cap work?

JasonEvans
08-27-2017, 07:01 PM
Prob not but wouldn't they need IT in the deal to make the cap work?

Yes, you do but the point was Cleveland should be ok with this deal whether IT is hobbled or healthy. Getting the Nets pick plus Crowder is a very good haul for a team likely looking to rebuild. IT is the icing on top because he allows you to continue to shoot for a title (or at least another Finals appearance) this season with Lebron before the King jumps ship to LA or wherever.

Bottom line, I doubt Ainge throws in anything extra (maybe Boston's 2nd rounder that figures to be one of the last few picks in the draft, with all their other 1st rounders, the Celtics probably don't even want those late 2nd round picks) and I bet Cleveland takes the deal even with no sweetener.

-Jason "if I was Ainge, I'd given Cleveland 24 hours to accept the trade or I would pull it. Everyone seems to agree that Cleveland got a great price here. The Celtics can live without making this deal more than Cleveland can" Evans

kAzE
08-28-2017, 12:16 AM
Yes, you do but the point was Cleveland should be ok with this deal whether IT is hobbled or healthy. Getting the Nets pick plus Crowder is a very good haul for a team likely looking to rebuild. IT is the icing on top because he allows you to continue to shoot for a title (or at least another Finals appearance) this season with Lebron before the King jumps ship to LA or wherever.

Bottom line, I doubt Ainge throws in anything extra (maybe Boston's 2nd rounder that figures to be one of the last few picks in the draft, with all their other 1st rounders, the Celtics probably don't even want those late 2nd round picks) and I bet Cleveland takes the deal even with no sweetener.

-Jason "if I was Ainge, I'd given Cleveland 24 hours to accept the trade or I would pull it. Everyone seems to agree that Cleveland got a great price here. The Celtics can live without making this deal more than Cleveland can" Evans

Man, I hope you're right. This would be extortion if the Celtics were forced to add another pick. I even heard Cleveland was trying to get Jaylen Brown or Jayson Tatum into the deal . . . which is something Boston should flatly refuse no matter what.

superdave
08-28-2017, 08:20 AM
Man, I hope you're right. This would be extortion if the Celtics were forced to add another pick. I even heard Cleveland was trying to get Jaylen Brown or Jayson Tatum into the deal . . . which is something Boston should flatly refuse no matter what.

I would LOL at Cleveland if I were Ainge. That franchise cant get out of its own way!

Seems like someone should have dug into the IT injury before the trade was agreed to.

budwom
08-28-2017, 08:26 AM
I can't see Ainge giving up anything more of value, so perhaps the trade gets voided, which would be a bit awkward for Kyrie. Second round pick I guess is possible...

LasVegas
08-28-2017, 01:06 PM
I would LOL at Cleveland if I were Ainge. That franchise cant get out of its own way!

Seems like someone should have dug into the IT injury before the trade was agreed to.

Cleveland couldn't really dig into the injury before it was agreed to. Right? The Cleveland docs have to wait to get their hands on him.

BD80
08-28-2017, 01:30 PM
Cleveland couldn't really dig into the injury before it was agreed to. Right? The Cleveland docs have to wait to get their hands on him.

Supposedly, Boston was up-front about the status of IT's injury and the recovery schedule, which is why there was so much more from Boston in the deal.

budwom
08-28-2017, 02:20 PM
Cleveland couldn't really dig into the injury before it was agreed to. Right? The Cleveland docs have to wait to get their hands on him.

They'll take him to the Cleveland Clinic and put him on statins because that's what they do with everyone.

devildeac
08-28-2017, 03:07 PM
They'll take him to the Cleveland Clinic and put him on statins because that's what they do with everyone.

Nothing wrong with that:rolleyes:. I'd even consider an echo +/- a treadmill test, too. :p

dudog84
08-28-2017, 03:32 PM
Supposedly, Boston was up-front about the status of IT's injury and the recovery schedule, which is why there was so much more from Boston in the deal.

Yeah, this is why the Cleveland protestations ring so hollow. Thomas was all-NBA 2nd team with 236 votes, Irving got 14 votes. Yeah, Irving is younger, taller, extra contract year, blah blah blah. But that doesn't come close to justifying 2 more players (one of whom is a 2-year starter) and a probable top-10 (possible top-3) pick in next year's loaded draft.

Ainge should tell the Cavs to pound salt. Cleveland will get nothing close to this from anyone else.

JasonEvans
08-28-2017, 04:09 PM
I thought this was an interesting article (https://www.theringer.com/nba/2017/8/28/16216916/conspiracy-corner-kyrie-irving-isaiah-thomas) about some conspiracy theories regarding the trade and it's fate... including one that says Cleveland knew it would never do the deal but wanted to sow seeds of discontent in Boston (it's closest Eastern rival).

Also, there is a report from a Cleveland reporter that the Cavs have not asked for anything back from the Celtics... not sure I believe that one.

Lastly, apparently Cleveland has until Wednesday to void the deal. After that time, it becomes final.

-Jason "the NBA offseason... it never gets dull!" Evans

kAzE
08-28-2017, 04:32 PM
No matter what happens or how you look at it, every game between Boston and Cleveland this year is going to be ratcheted up to an 10 for intensity. I really hope they meet in the playoffs. Should be a real treat.

Pghdukie
08-28-2017, 04:49 PM
Most pro trades aren't official until both team doctors sign off. It's high stakes for both teams.

BD80
08-28-2017, 07:45 PM
I thought this was an interesting article (https://www.theringer.com/nba/2017/8/28/16216916/conspiracy-corner-kyrie-irving-isaiah-thomas) about some conspiracy theories regarding the trade and it's fate... including one that says Cleveland knew it would never do the deal but wanted to sow seeds of discontent in Boston (it's closest Eastern rival).

Also, there is a report from a Cleveland reporter that the Cavs have not asked for anything back from the Celtics... not sure I believe that one.

Lastly, apparently Cleveland has until Wednesday to void the deal. After that time, it becomes final.

-Jason "the NBA offseason... it never gets dull!" Evans

In addition, the Cavs have raised the perceived trade value of Kyrie. All other negotiations will be compared to the voided Celtics deal.

JasonEvans
08-30-2017, 11:34 AM
In addition, the Cavs have raised the perceived trade value of Kyrie. All other negotiations will be compared to the voided Celtics deal.

Speaking of comparisons, Milwaukee enters the fray...

Apparently, the Bucks have made an offer to Cleveland (http://bleacherreport.com/articles/2730438-kyrie-irving-trade-rumors-bucks-offer-centers-around-malcolm-brogdon)in the event that the Cavs reject the Celtics offer.

Cleveland would get NBA rookie of the Year Malcolm Brogdon and veteran Kris Middleton. No draft picks would be exchanged (not that a Milwaukee pick is all that valuable as they are a very likely playoff team).

A pair of good young players is a nice offer, though not nearly what the Celtics ponied up. Brogdon has 2 years left on his really cheap rookie deal. Middleton has 2 years left at a pretty reasonable $14/$13 mil per season. Middleton was injured last year but was an 18ppg scorer the year before.

-Jason "maybe this shows Cleveland that the Celtic deal is worth making even if IT is not healthy" Evans

mkirsh
08-30-2017, 01:56 PM
Speaking of comparisons, Milwaukee enters the fray...

Apparently, the Bucks have made an offer to Cleveland (http://bleacherreport.com/articles/2730438-kyrie-irving-trade-rumors-bucks-offer-centers-around-malcolm-brogdon)in the event that the Cavs reject the Celtics offer.

Cleveland would get NBA rookie of the Year Malcolm Brogdon and veteran Kris Middleton. No draft picks would be exchanged (not that a Milwaukee pick is all that valuable as they are a very likely playoff team).

A pair of good young players is a nice offer, though not nearly what the Celtics ponied up. Brogdon has 2 years left on his really cheap rookie deal. Middleton has 2 years left at a pretty reasonable $14/$13 mil per season. Middleton was injured last year but was an 18ppg scorer the year before.

-Jason "maybe this shows Cleveland that the Celtic deal is worth making even if IT is not healthy" Evans

Can't believe the Bucks would isolate 2 starters on such a low risk proposition for them. If the Cavs reject the trade and don't deal with the Bucks, half of the contenders in the east will have backcourts that feel slighted by their teams.

mph
08-30-2017, 02:02 PM
Speaking of comparisons, Milwaukee enters the fray...

Apparently, the Bucks have made an offer to Cleveland (http://bleacherreport.com/articles/2730438-kyrie-irving-trade-rumors-bucks-offer-centers-around-malcolm-brogdon)in the event that the Cavs reject the Celtics offer.

Cleveland would get NBA rookie of the Year Malcolm Brogdon and veteran Kris Middleton. No draft picks would be exchanged (not that a Milwaukee pick is all that valuable as they are a very likely playoff team).

A pair of good young players is a nice offer, though not nearly what the Celtics ponied up. Brogdon has 2 years left on his really cheap rookie deal. Middleton has 2 years left at a pretty reasonable $14/$13 mil per season. Middleton was injured last year but was an 18ppg scorer the year before.

-Jason "maybe this shows Cleveland that the Celtic deal is worth making even if IT is not healthy" Evans

Yes, and while I doubt Ainge needed any additional resolve to hold firm on the existing offer, this should end any doubt. If he tells the Cavs to take it or leave it, they will take it.

ice-9
08-30-2017, 04:46 PM
One thing clear to me is that there is at least one person in the Cavs organization who loves to LEAK things to the press.

Anyone doubt this Bucks' offer was designed to put pressure on the Celtics to sweeten the deal?

Or news coverage on the trade being questioned in the first place due to IT's physical?

They all seem like Cav machinations to get more. Actually, maybe the leaker is someone in LeBron's camp, then it all makes sense, including Kyrie's trade request becoming public.

JasonEvans
08-30-2017, 09:17 PM
Word is that the deal must either be accepted or rejected by 10am tomorrow. There had been a report that today was the deadline but the real deadline is tomorrow.

LasVegas
08-30-2017, 09:59 PM
One thing clear to me is that there is at least one person in the Cavs organization who loves to LEAK things to the press.

Anyone doubt this Bucks' offer was designed to put pressure on the Celtics to sweeten the deal?

Or news coverage on the trade being questioned in the first place due to IT's physical?

They all seem like Cav machinations to get more. Actually, maybe the leaker is someone in LeBron's camp, then it all makes sense, including Kyrie's trade request becoming public.

Or maybe it's all just fake. Or blown way out of proportion. Impossible to tell as of right now. There has been no official word either way. So you either believe the "source" or you don't.

DangerDevil
08-30-2017, 10:04 PM
At least one report that the Cavs are no longer seeking additional assets to complete the trade. Unless I missed it I don't see whether this means the trade is complete or not though.

http://cavaliersnation.com/2017/08/30/report-cavs-no-longer-seeking-compensation-from-boston-in-irving-deal/

Furniture
08-30-2017, 10:25 PM
At least one report that the Cavs are no longer seeking additional assets to complete the trade. Unless I missed it I don't see whether this means the trade is complete or not though.

http://cavaliersnation.com/2017/08/30/report-cavs-no-longer-seeking-compensation-from-boston-in-irving-deal/

Adrian Wojnarowski
@wojespn (https://mobile.twitter.com/wojespn)∑1m (https://mobile.twitter.com/wojespn/status/903080703587491841)
Cleveland, Boston have reached an agreement, league source tells ESPN.

fraggler
08-30-2017, 10:42 PM
Espn.com says deal is done with the Celtics giving up a 2020 second round pick.

BigZ
08-30-2017, 10:42 PM
Yeah Cavs get 2nd Round pick.

DangerDevil
08-30-2017, 10:55 PM
Adrian Wojnarowski
@wojespn (https://mobile.twitter.com/wojespn)∑1m (https://mobile.twitter.com/wojespn/status/903080703587491841)
Cleveland, Boston have reached an agreement, league source tells ESPN.

I'm happy it is a done deal and Kyrie is a Celtic!

I am disappointed on principle that Ainge gave up an additional asset, even though a 2nd round NBA draft pick is pretty much worthless, particularly one at the end of the round. Yes, I know that there are exceptions to this and realize that IT was the last pick of his draft.

Even though the Cavs "won" an additional asset I think they came out looking even more disorganized than they did before.

dudog84
08-30-2017, 11:23 PM
Is the 2nd round pick protected? :D

budwom
08-31-2017, 08:29 AM
I'm happy it is a done deal and Kyrie is a Celtic!

I am disappointed on principle that Ainge gave up an additional asset, even though a 2nd round NBA draft pick is pretty much worthless, particularly one at the end of the round. Yes, I know that there are exceptions to this and realize that IT was the last pick of his draft.

Even though the Cavs "won" an additional asset I think they came out looking even more disorganized than they did before.

I'm happy, too. The Cavs' real issue isn't whether they got the best of the deal or not, it's the fact that they're largely dysfunctional, with a bizarre owner who can't/won't hire or keep good GMs, weak coaches, all of which leads
to LBJ filling the void by telling them what to do all the time. LBJ is a humongous talent, but I can see why Kyrie wanted to escape his shadow, because the Cavs' chain of command is such a mess.
If LBJ were at some team with strong ownership, GM and coaching, (e.g. San Antonio just for example) there'd be a whole lot less drama to contend with.

JasonEvans
08-31-2017, 09:04 AM
I'm happy, too. The Cavs' real issue isn't whether they got the best of the deal or not, it's the fact that they're largely dysfunctional, with a bizarre owner who can't/won't hire or keep good GMs, weak coaches, all of which leads
to LBJ filling the void by telling them what to do all the time. LBJ is a humongous talent, but I can see why Kyrie wanted to escape his shadow, because the Cavs' chain of command is such a mess.
If LBJ were at some team with strong ownership, GM and coaching, (e.g. San Antonio just for example) there'd be a whole lot less drama to contend with.

I hear you and I do not disagree... but how does that go with his stated desire to go to the Knicks? I guess hometown/childhood team trumps organizational ineptitude.

JasonEvans
08-31-2017, 09:07 AM
Here is a summary of what just went down...

Cleveland: "We are not doing this deal! You fleeced us with an injured All-star who may never be the same player. The trade is off!"
Boston: "Ok, ok, calm down. What if I throw in a 2020 D-League player?"
Cleveland: "Well, now you are talking! We have a deal!"

DangerDevil
08-31-2017, 09:43 AM
Here is a summary of what just went down...

Cleveland: "We are not doing this deal! You fleeced us with an injured All-star who may never be the same player. The trade is off!"
Boston: "Ok, ok, calm down. What if I throw in a 2020 D-League player?"
Cleveland: "Well, now you are talking! We have a deal!"

I saw another quote that was along the lines of "Cleveland held out to get a guy that is currently a 15 or 16 year old who most of us have never heard of, that probably never will make their roster!"

Way to go Cavs!

budwom
08-31-2017, 10:27 AM
I hear you and I do not disagree... but how does that go with his stated desire to go to the Knicks? I guess hometown/childhood team trumps organizational ineptitude.

Local team and all that. He may still want to (he says a lot of things, like the earth is flat) but he originally made the comment before the Boston trade. He ought to be pretty happy with his
highly functional new home.

I chatted with a pal who has a good friend inside the Celts' organization, and they are thrilled about the trade. They feel Thomas had too many liabilities, had to be helped on defense too often...(but of course
Kyrie will have to up HIS defense, that's for sure. Difference is, he has the ability to do so.)

cato
08-31-2017, 12:48 PM
I hear you and I do not disagree... but how does that go with his stated desire to go to the Knicks? I guess hometown/childhood team trumps organizational ineptitude.

Did Kyrie ever say publicly that he wanted to go to the Knicks? I don't recall him going on record about much of anything.

Assuming he did want to go to the Knicks, I assume it was for the only reason anyone wants to go to the Knicks these days: to make a lot of money and enjoy New York.

Bluedog
08-31-2017, 01:15 PM
Did Kyrie ever say publicly that he wanted to go to the Knicks? I don't recall him going on record about much of anything.

Assuming he did want to go to the Knicks, I assume it was for the only reason anyone wants to go to the Knicks these days: to make a lot of money and enjoy New York.

With these types of deals you don't typically hear it directly from the player's mouth, but I'm sure Kyrie worked with his agent to make his preferences clear to the Cavs:

"Per ESPN's Chris Haynes, Irving gave the Cavaliers a list of preferred trade destinations that includes the Knicks, San Antonio Spurs, Miami Heat and Minnesota Timberwolves." - July 21st
http://bleacherreport.com/articles/2724159-kyrie-irving-reportedly-wants-trade-to-new-york-knicks-very-badly

Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15
08-31-2017, 01:32 PM
Did Kyrie ever say publicly that he wanted to go to the Knicks? I don't recall him going on record about much of anything.

Assuming he did want to go to the Knicks, I assume it was for the only reason anyone wants to go to the Knicks these days: to make a lot of money and enjoy New York.

Yes, everything people have said about Kyrie's wishes and concerns have been second-hand, conjecture, or from the Cavs organization.

budwom
08-31-2017, 01:50 PM
a bunch of the NY papers got calls from someone evidently close to Kyrie...but yeah, that's second hand, too. I do think it's true, though.

cato
08-31-2017, 02:47 PM
a bunch of the NY papers got calls from someone evidently close to Kyrie...but yeah, that's second hand, too. I do think it's true, though.

Like quotes from sources re the NFL draft, I assume every piece of information that was leaked in connection with this move was leaked for a reason.

superdave
08-31-2017, 03:14 PM
Zach Lowe's article is a worth a read on Kyrie, the trade, etc: http://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/20501557/zach-lowe-celtics-cavaliers-kyrie-irving-isaiah-thomas-trade-nba

Right in the middle of the article, Lowe mentions how the Celtics are not done because they do not yet have the elite player who will bring a Title. He lists their core as Horford, Hayward, Irving, Tatum, Brown and the eventual Laker/Sixer pick, but asks who the franchise superstar is?

Lowe thinks the Celtics will package some assets to try to get Anthony Davis. He's certainly not available now, but he's likely going to get that Kevin Garnett itch after playing for a crappy franchise that tried to make Davis and Boogie a twin towers combo when the league is going small.

If Boston were to put together a package for Davis before the draft next year, here's what they might be able to offer:
Horford $28.9m, 2019 Lakers/Sixers pick, future Clippers & Grizz 1st rounders, Jaylen Brown $5.2m.

Here's Davis' contract details -

2017-18 $23.775
2018-19 $25.434
2019-20 $27.093
2020-21 $28.751 (player option)

Horford would almost certainly have to be a part because of Davis' salary. A core of Irving, Smart, Hayward, Tatum, Davis and 1-2 more guys would be an enormous coup for Ainge.

He just needs Davis to ask to be traded after the Twin Towers experiment fails.

Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15
08-31-2017, 04:27 PM
Zach Lowe's article is a worth a read on Kyrie, the trade, etc: http://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/20501557/zach-lowe-celtics-cavaliers-kyrie-irving-isaiah-thomas-trade-nba

Right in the middle of the article, Lowe mentions how the Celtics are not done because they do not yet have the elite player who will bring a Title. He lists their core as Horford, Hayward, Irving, Tatum, Brown and the eventual Laker/Sixer pick, but asks who the franchise superstar is?

Lowe thinks the Celtics will package some assets to try to get Anthony Davis. He's certainly not available now, but he's likely going to get that Kevin Garnett itch after playing for a crappy franchise that tried to make Davis and Boogie a twin towers combo when the league is going small.

If Boston were to put together a package for Davis before the draft next year, here's what they might be able to offer:
Horford $28.9m, 2019 Lakers/Sixers pick, future Clippers & Grizz 1st rounders, Jaylen Brown $5.2m.

Here's Davis' contract details -

2017-18 $23.775
2018-19 $25.434
2019-20 $27.093
2020-21 $28.751 (player option)

Horford would almost certainly have to be a part because of Davis' salary. A core of Irving, Smart, Hayward, Tatum, Davis and 1-2 more guys would be an enormous coup for Ainge.

He just needs Davis to ask to be traded after the Twin Towers experiment fails.

If they pulled that off and Lebron went west, the East would be theirs for a bit, I would think.

BD80
08-31-2017, 06:16 PM
I saw another quote that was along the lines of "Cleveland held out to get a guy that is currently a 15 or 16 year old who most of us have never heard of, that probably never will make their roster!"

Way to go Cavs!

And who cannot currently speak English.

kAzE
09-01-2017, 01:53 PM
@Supadave (or was it superdave?)

Vegas over/unders for regular season wins are posted: http://bleacherreport.com/articles/2730296-las-vegas-sets-overunder-win-totals-for-all-nba-teams-warriors-at-675

If you're predicting 40 or less wins for the C's, you might be interested in putting some money down, because Vegas thinks they will be the 2nd best regular season team, at 56.5 :p

To be honest, 56.5 is insanely high. I think they are going to be awesome, and yet I would still almost surely bet the under on that . . .

Sidenote: The Bulls are at 21.5 and the Hawks are at 25.5. The bottom of the East is going to be as bad as ever.

dudog84
09-01-2017, 02:30 PM
@Supadave (or was it superdave?)

Vegas over/unders for regular season wins are posted: http://bleacherreport.com/articles/2730296-las-vegas-sets-overunder-win-totals-for-all-nba-teams-warriors-at-675

If you're predicting 40 or less wins for the C's, you might be interested in putting some money down, because Vegas thinks they will be the 2nd best regular season team, at 56.5 :p

To be honest, 56.5 is insanely high. I think they are going to be awesome, and yet I would still almost surely bet the under on that . . .

Sidenote: The Bulls are at 21.5 and the Hawks are at 25.5. The bottom of the East is going to be as bad as ever.

What's interesting to me about these odds are that the Nets are tied for 3rd worst record. That's good for the Cavs. However, since the Nets don't have a pick they won't be tanking/trading their best players at the deadline to get worse. I'm guessing they'll be in the 8th-10th worst range. Is it time for a poll?

Eternal Outlaw
09-01-2017, 10:50 PM
What's interesting to me about these odds are that the Nets are tied for 3rd worst record. That's good for the Cavs. However, since the Nets don't have a pick they won't be tanking/trading their best players at the deadline to get worse. I'm guessing they'll be in the 8th-10th worst range. Is it time for a poll?

This point seemed to be said a lot during the Kyrie trade talk but the Nets stunk and had no reason to tank this past season yet Boston has Jayson instead of one of the guys in the 8-10 range. What has changed? Crabbe and Russell? Their roster still stinks, they don't need to trade anyone to tank. Players don't tank while on the court and they will simply be outmatched most games.

Philadukie
09-02-2017, 04:59 PM
I just happened to remember the game last year against Florida at MSG, which Kyrie attended and was Tatum's debut. I remember Kyrie jumping up and cheering when Tatum scored on a few possessions.

Anyway, very cool that they are now on the same team. Who knew?! The odds of them ending up at Boston, let alone anywhere, together were exceedingly small.

Troublemaker
09-02-2017, 05:13 PM
BTW, I'm sure it's been said already, but great trade request by Kyrie.

(1) He ended up in a better situation for himself. Better coach, owner, front office, and better teammates for his prime.

(2) Cleveland was still able to get great assets trading him despite the timing of the trade request.

I believe those were the two main criticisms of Kyrie's trade request. [And really, wrt (2), I'm actually okay with a player taking a hyper-competitive stance where he tries to lower his trade value so his new team doesn't have to give up too much. Kyrie didn't do this or if he did, he was bad at it since Boston gave up so much. But I'm okay with, for example, Paul George making everyone well aware that he preferred L.A.]

sagegrouse
09-02-2017, 05:57 PM
BTW, I'm sure it's been said already, but great trade request by Kyrie.

(1) He ended up in a better situation for himself. Better coach, owner, front office, and better teammates for his prime.

(2) Cleveland was still able to get great assets trading him despite the timing of the trade request.

I believe those were the two main criticisms of Kyrie's trade request. [And really, wrt (2), I'm actually okay with a player taking a hyper-competitive stance where he tries to lower his trade value so his new team doesn't have to give up too much. Kyrie didn't do this or if he did, he was bad at it since Boston gave up so much. But I'm okay with, for example, Paul George making everyone well aware that he preferred L.A.]

Also, no degradation in the winter weather -- but no improvement either.

niveklaen
09-02-2017, 10:56 PM
I don't get the issue with the timing. Kyrie didn't make the request when it went public, he made it back before the gm was fired for not trading him. If the old gm hadn't refused to do his job they could have shopped him when Paul George was still available.

superdave
09-03-2017, 08:53 AM
https://twitter.com/WeAreCavsNation/status/904136748304703488

Cavaliers Nation‏ @WeAreCavsNation
Follow More
Sources: Cavs and Pelicans discussing deal that would send Iman Shumpert and Brooklyn pick to New Orleans and DeMarcus Cousins to Cleveland.
9:19 PM - 2 Sep 2017

I know I know, it's just a tweet. But I had seen Boogie to the Cavs floated previously. Not sure how that fits with Lebron. Boogie would really slow things down, and they would still have Kevin Love and Tristan Thompson on the roster. That's almost $42 million tied up in Love and Thompson, so this deal would almost surely mean one of the two gets moved as well.

Suppose they make this deal plus flip Thompson for a 1/2. That gives you Boogie, Love, Lebron, JR, Thomas, Crowder, Rose. Pretty formidable. They key would be to turn Thompson into a a versatile 1/2 who can guard Steph and Klay. Not sure who that could be.

But if the Pelicans are willing to cut bait on Boogie now (last year of his deal, cheap $16m contract), then they are likely all-in to do whatever Anthony Davis wants (why wouldnt they be?!)
So maybe Davis thinks the twin towers gimmick is a no-go. But then what about the $125m they just gave to Jrue Holiday? (ouch) The Pelicans seems to be casting about on strategy. I assume Davis has no confidence that any plan is in place to build a contender, and that he probably doesnt think the front office is going to figure that out soon. That's ripe for a trade request, right?

Beyond that, what else could the Cavs get for the Brooklyn pick? Gary Harris and Faried/Plumlee? Eric Bledsoe?

kAzE
09-03-2017, 12:10 PM
https://twitter.com/WeAreCavsNation/status/904136748304703488

Cavaliers Nation‏ @WeAreCavsNation
Follow More
Sources: Cavs and Pelicans discussing deal that would send Iman Shumpert and Brooklyn pick to New Orleans and DeMarcus Cousins to Cleveland.
9:19 PM - 2 Sep 2017

I know I know, it's just a tweet. But I had seen Boogie to the Cavs floated previously. Not sure how that fits with Lebron. Boogie would really slow things down, and they would still have Kevin Love and Tristan Thompson on the roster. That's almost $42 million tied up in Love and Thompson, so this deal would almost surely mean one of the two gets moved as well.

Suppose they make this deal plus flip Thompson for a 1/2. That gives you Boogie, Love, Lebron, JR, Thomas, Crowder, Rose. Pretty formidable. They key would be to turn Thompson into a a versatile 1/2 who can guard Steph and Klay. Not sure who that could be.

But if the Pelicans are willing to cut bait on Boogie now (last year of his deal, cheap $16m contract), then they are likely all-in to do whatever Anthony Davis wants (why wouldnt they be?!)
So maybe Davis thinks the twin towers gimmick is a no-go. But then what about the $125m they just gave to Jrue Holiday? (ouch) The Pelicans seems to be casting about on strategy. I assume Davis has no confidence that any plan is in place to build a contender, and that he probably doesnt think the front office is going to figure that out soon. That's ripe for a trade request, right?

Beyond that, what else could the Cavs get for the Brooklyn pick? Gary Harris and Faried/Plumlee? Eric Bledsoe?

The Anthony Davis sweepstakes before trade deadline 2018 is looking like a major possibility.

JasonEvans
09-03-2017, 02:25 PM
The Shumpert for Cousins deal won't work because the Cavs are waaaay over the cap and Shumpert only makes $10 mil. Boogie makes $16 mil so you need to add in extra salary to make it work. The Cavs could throw in Channing Frye or the trio of Richard Jefferson, Kay Felder, and Edy Tavares to make it work.

Regardless, I cannot fathom why the Cavs would make this move. That Brooklyn pick is their future if Lebron leaves. Dealing it for Boogie is just a terrible move unless you are sure you can keep Lebron... and I cannot fathom they feel confident about that.

-Jason "I bet this is an unfounded rumor... the new Cleveland GM got an A+ for what he did with Kyrie, making this deal downgrades his grade significantly" Evans

BigZ
09-03-2017, 06:33 PM
The Cavs prob come to the conclusion that if they lose Lebron they are finished anyway. if I was running the Cavs I'd go all in and try to win to keep Lebron

bob blue devil
09-06-2017, 01:25 PM
this espn article (http://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/20595342/nba-cleveland-cavaliers-guard-isaiah-thomas-faces-uncertain-return-potentially-career-ending-hip-injury) really putting a negative spin on isaiah thomas's hip injury. to me, not much of an nba follower to be fair, a healthy thomas is the only thing that makes this deal work for cleveland - their best shot at a title for the next 20 years was probably this coming season; you can't meaningfully downgrade that for a 1st round pick.

Philadukie
09-06-2017, 08:33 PM
Interesting (and candid) viewpoint from Isaiah Thomas in The Players Tribune:

https://www.theplayerstribune.com/isaiah-thomas-trade-celtics-cavaliers/

atoomer0881
09-06-2017, 11:09 PM
Interesting (and candid) viewpoint from Isaiah Thomas in The Players Tribune:

https://www.theplayerstribune.com/isaiah-thomas-trade-celtics-cavaliers/

Really loved how he ended that piece:

I like to imagine that sometime not long from now, somewhere in Boston, someone is going to be a parent, talking basketball to their kid. And their kid is going to ask them, point-blank like kids do, you know, ďYo ó why you become a Celtics fan?Ē

And that parent, man, theyíre going to think back to themselves ó really think on it. And then theyíre going to smile, and tell the truth.

ďI saw Isaiah Thomas play.Ē

That would make me very happy. For me, I think, thatíd be enough.

elvis14
09-07-2017, 12:20 AM
I saw Bobby Hurley play.

Philadukie
09-07-2017, 09:27 AM
I saw Bobby Hurley play.

Seconded!

JasonEvans
09-07-2017, 01:55 PM
If he gets healthy, what is the over/under on how many points Isaiah scores the first time he plays Cleveland (with Kyrie guarding him)? Would 40 be a crazy number? It may take him 30 shots to get there, but I bet he would want to hang 2 score on them.

BD80
09-07-2017, 02:07 PM
If he gets healthy, what is the over/under on how many points Isaiah scores the first time he plays Cleveland (with Kyrie guarding him)? Would 40 be a crazy number? It may take him 30 shots to get there, but I bet he would want to hang 2 score on them.

Who scores more, IT or Kyrie?

The over/under on their combined scores - 90?

The over/under on their combined assists - 6?

kAzE
09-07-2017, 05:49 PM
Who scores more, IT or Kyrie?

The over/under on their combined scores - 90?

The over/under on their combined assists - 6?

If healthy, Isaiah scores more. First game is in Cleveland, and LeBron likes Isaiah, so he's going to get fed the ball and given plenty of opportunity.

Plus, Isaiah was the one blindsided by this trade, and the one who was invested in the team/city trading him away. Kyrie's happy. Isaiah has an even bigger chip on his shoulder.

But that's only if he's healthy. If his hip injury lingers in to the regular season, he might not even play. The game is both teams' season openers on October 17.

Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15
09-07-2017, 06:18 PM
If healthy, Isaiah scores more. First game is in Cleveland, and LeBron likes Isaiah, so he's going to get fed the ball and given plenty of opportunity.

Plus, Isaiah was the one blindsided by this trade, and the one who was invested in the team/city trading him away. Kyrie's happy. Isaiah has an even bigger chip on his shoulder.

But that's only if he's healthy. If his hip injury lingers in to the regular season, he might not even play. The game is both teams' season openers on October 17.

Seriously? Just over a month to go?

moonpie23
09-07-2017, 08:42 PM
Plus, Isaiah was the one blindsided by this trade, and the one who was invested in the team/city trading him away. Kyrie's happy. Isaiah has an even bigger chip on his shoulder.

.

i'm not sure i agree with this.....i'm pretty sure everything went sideways when KI found out he was BEING shopped after the finals....I'd be more inclined to think Kyrie has a bigger BITTER chip...


jmho

Furniture
09-07-2017, 08:54 PM
Now the trade has gone through I wonder if we will hear Kyrie's side of things. I think he took the high road during the trade talks but now it's all said and done at some point he may say something.

madscavenger
09-07-2017, 09:09 PM
Seconded!

i saw Tony Barone play. :eek:

yancem
09-07-2017, 10:15 PM
Who scores more, IT or Kyrie?

The over/under on their combined scores - 90?

The over/under on their combined assists - 6?

I hope that Irving scores only 20 but dishes out over 15 assists in a W. I think the key to him taking the next step toward true franchise/all NBA status is to run the offense more by getting others involved not just scoring a ton. He needs to be more Westbrook or Harden and less Iverson. Not that Iverson wasn't great but he was kind of a one man show and for most of his career a gunner. Irving has a bit of a reputation of not making his teammates better, so passing more and running the offense will help with that image. He can still be a/the primary scorer but should start games by trying to set up others.

flyingdutchdevil
09-08-2017, 08:44 AM
If healthy, Isaiah scores more. First game is in Cleveland, and LeBron likes Isaiah, so he's going to get fed the ball and given plenty of opportunity.

Plus, Isaiah was the one blindsided by this trade, and the one who was invested in the team/city trading him away. Kyrie's happy. Isaiah has an even bigger chip on his shoulder.

But that's only if he's healthy. If his hip injury lingers in to the regular season, he might not even play. The game is both teams' season openers on October 17.

Yeah- I feel horrible for Isaiah. He loved Boston, they loved him. I get the trade. I get that Isaiah wasn't in the Celtics's long term plans. But the whole situation is unfortunate.

LasVegas
09-19-2017, 11:30 AM
Did anyone else catch kyrieís First Take interview the other day?
I donít know who let him go on but what a terrrible interview for his image. His affect was so flat that it was amazing to watch. It really was a disappointment watching it.

ChillinDuke
09-19-2017, 11:40 AM
Did anyone else catch kyrieís First Take interview the other day?
I donít know who let him go on but what a terrrible interview for his image. His affect was so flat that it was amazing to watch. It really was a disappointment watching it.

There was some buzz about it on Twitter. And I read an article that was a bit unflattering to Kyrie.

I didn't catch the interview, but it sure seems this offseason/year has been generally poor as far as Kyrie's image goes.

- Chillin

English
09-19-2017, 12:10 PM
There was some buzz about it on Twitter. And I read an article that was a bit unflattering to Kyrie.

I didn't catch the interview, but it sure seems this offseason/year has been generally poor as far as Kyrie's image goes.

- Chillin

The PTI guys were both on Kyrie's side--Kornheiser, in particular, basically argued that Lebron doesn't ask Kyrie's permission or take him aside before he makes decision that impact the team, so why is Kyrie obligated to clear anything with Lebron? Fair point.

From where I sat, Kyrie could've certainly been more diplomatic and articulate, but I have no problem with him essentially saying "this is my career and my livelihood, and I don't need anyone's blessing to maximize it." He's come out the other end in a situation that, presumably, is exactly what he wanted. Should he publicly apologize for the way it played out? Should he apologize to Lebron, despite Lebron doing the exact same thing and leaving Kyrie in a dead franchise while he went and played with his buddies in Miami and won mutliple chips? Hard pass.

/Off topic, but it's @KDTrey5 (Kevin Durant) who's currently incurring the PR wrath for his latest shenanigans.

sagegrouse
09-19-2017, 12:14 PM
There was some buzz about it on Twitter. And I read an article that was a bit unflattering to Kyrie.

I didn't catch the interview, but it sure seems this offseason/year has been generally poor as far as Kyrie's image goes.

- Chillin

I read the excerpt on ESPN.com. Kyrie needs an elevator speech -- "I want to be the best point guard I can possibly be, emphasizing all aspects of the position. That would not happen in Cleveland, although I love my teammates, and I am proud of what we accomplished there." Then, the follow-up discusses the position -- having the ball, initiating the plays, making and finishing offensive plays, finding open teammates, etc. etc. Then he should talk about his team in Boston and how excited he is to play with Gordon, etc.

Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15
09-19-2017, 12:32 PM
I found Kyrie's quotes interesting. It is his first public statement since his trade request went public.

I very much understand his response to "did you tell Lebron and why not?". He wants out of that franchise precisely because of questions like that. He wants out because after winning an NBA championship in Cleveland (first in a billion years) headlines read "Lebron brings trophy to Cleveland!"

How obnoxious does that get after several years? Imagine having a coworker who is ostensibly your teammate, but is also the CEO, HR, and the marketing department.

Matches
09-19-2017, 12:53 PM
Yea he didn't come off particularly well but that's a shame because his position is (at least IMO) completely understandable. Cleveland is a dysfunctional franchise built to cater to the whims of one guy, and it'll be even more dysfunctional a year from now when said one guy bolts. But Kyrie can't say that publicly, so he's left saying it without really saying it, and it just comes off as self-delusion and ego. No way for him to win.

edit: I saw the KD thing too, and man what a child. Sometimes I think the whole NBA is a glorified junior high school.

sagegrouse
09-19-2017, 12:55 PM
I found Kyrie's quotes interesting. It is his first public statement since his trade request went public.

I very much understand his response to "did you tell Lebron and why not?". He wants out of that franchise precisely because of questions like that. He wants out because after winning an NBA championship in Cleveland (first in a billion years) headlines read "Lebron brings trophy to Cleveland!"

How obnoxious does that get after several years? Imagine having a coworker who is ostensibly your teammate, but is also the CEO, HR, and the marketing department.

Do you really think it's ego? It seems like "basketball" to me. Primarily, Kyrie wants to be [the greatest] point guard -- he can't with LeBron controlling the ball, which LeBron will continue to do under any scenario. Secondarily, the Cavs are gonna "blow up" after this season when LeBron leaves, and Kyrie doesn't want to be in the crater. I.e., it's better to get out now.

Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15
09-19-2017, 01:00 PM
Do you really think it's ego? It seems like "basketball" to me. Primarily, Kyrie wants to be [the greatest] point guard -- he can't with LeBron controlling the ball, which LeBron will continue to do under any scenario. Secondarily, the Cavs are gonna "blow up" after this season when LeBron leaves, and Kyrie doesn't want to be in the crater. I.e., it's better to get out now.

I didn't say anything about ego. I just think that being on a team where every question and comment is around what it is like playing with the best player ever would be exhausting.

kAzE
09-19-2017, 01:24 PM
Just checked out the KD situation . . .

I think any negative press from Kyrie's story is going to be heavily overshadowed by KD's, so that's good news.

I really don't understand why NBA players even use Twitter at this point. No good can come of it.

atoomer0881
09-19-2017, 01:27 PM
Yea he didn't come off particularly well but that's a shame because his position is (at least IMO) completely understandable. Cleveland is a dysfunctional franchise built to cater to the whims of one guy, and it'll be even more dysfunctional a year from now when said one guy bolts. But Kyrie can't say that publicly, so he's left saying it without really saying it, and it just comes off as self-delusion and ego. No way for him to win.

edit: I saw the KD thing too, and man what a child. Sometimes I think the whole NBA is a glorified junior high school.

That's what you get when every year, thirty 19 year olds come into the league.

JasonEvans
09-19-2017, 03:00 PM
Highlights from Kyrie's First Take appearance...


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NiHXBEj1MTk

jimsumner
09-19-2017, 03:17 PM
Should he apologize to Lebron, despite Lebron doing the exact same thing and leaving Kyrie in a dead franchise while he went and played with his buddies in Miami and won mutliple chips? Hard pass.

.

Umm, James signed with Miami around the time Irving was graduating from high school. He didn't exactly leave Irving in Cleveland.

kAzE
09-19-2017, 03:44 PM
Highlights from Kyrie's First Take appearance...

Man, that was the wrong show to appear on if he wanted to avoid tough and/or controversial questions.

Go on Scott van Pelt and have a scripted interview with responses crafted by your publicist if you want to repair your image . . .

Kyrie, you're a world class basketball player, but you're not going to out-talk SAS or Kellerman.

Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15
09-19-2017, 04:19 PM
I really didn't see him as coming off that poorly. Maybe it's my Duke blue glasses, but most of his statements and responses seemed measured and noncontroversial. If you read the full text here and ignore the ESPN highlighted "scandalous" parts, I think it comes off pretty straight forward. I encourage you to read for yourself and not trust the Hot Take of the moment.

http://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/20745983

LasVegas
09-19-2017, 05:23 PM
I really didn't see him as coming off that poorly. Maybe it's my Duke blue glasses, but most of his statements and responses seemed measured and noncontroversial. If you read the full text here and ignore the ESPN highlighted "scandalous" parts, I think it comes off pretty straight forward. I encourage you to read for yourself and not trust the Hot Take of the moment.

http://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/20745983

I watched it live and rewatched the clips. I think itís even worse the second time around. Some terrible answers with a lot of attitude and disrespect. Plus he acts so flat itís like watching a zombie. Hopefully he finds what he wants in Boston because if he doesnít...I donít think it will end well. Iím rooting for him.

Troublemaker
09-19-2017, 06:04 PM
Kyrie's no Grant Hill, but I don't think he's any less articulate than the average athlete. His one slightly irritating flaw seems to be an inclination towards misusing "big words," e.g. using "tirade" as a verb. But I understand what he's trying to get across.

sagegrouse
09-19-2017, 06:42 PM
Kyrie's no Grant Hill, but I don't think he's any less articulate than the average athlete. His one slightly irritating flaw seems to be an inclination towards misusing "big words," e.g. using "tirade" as a verb. But I understand what he's trying to get across.

Probably more articulate than the average athlete, but his answers and even his sentences are too long. He needs to work on some punchier statements. Heck, he gets asked the same questions over and over. Why not get some pat answers? I think he can afford to get some coaching. :rolleyes:

He is actually articulate and looks good on TV -- no reason not to polish his messages.

CDu
09-19-2017, 07:03 PM
Kyrie's no Grant Hill, but I don't think he's any less articulate than the average athlete. His one slightly irritating flaw seems to be an inclination towards misusing "big words," e.g. using "tirade" as a verb. But I understand what he's trying to get across.

My favorite comment was his statement that he is a "very awake" individual. But you have hit on the issue I have with Irving's public comments in general. Everything he says seems to be an attempt to show you how "awake" and intellectual he is. And he probably IS smarter than the average athlete. But when he misuses big words or jumbles a bunch of big words/concepts together in a way that doesn't make sense (like in this interview), or when he tries to sound enlightened by talking about far-out concepts (like in the flat earth gaffe), he comes off kind of clunky. That he states how he is "awake" really confirms to me what I kind of felt he is always trying to do: come off as this super-wordly, intellectual, "woke" person.

In terms of why he wanted out, I agree with sage: he could have made things easier by keeping his responses simple.

But I am happy for him to get what he seems to want: a chance to be the #1 guy on a contender. He shouldn't be blasted for wanting that. Maybe "be careful what you wish for", but nothing wrong with wanting something different. Hopefully it works out for him. It sounds like he is happy to be out of LeBron's shadow.

ice-9
09-20-2017, 12:16 PM
But I am happy for him to get what he seems to want: a chance to be the #1 guy on a contender.

The only source for that was whoever leaked the trade request.

I don't think he wants to be that at all.

He pretty much says that in the interview as well.

It's pretty amazing how this characterization has become fact for even intelligent people like CDu. Just shows you the power of media and perception.

Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15
09-20-2017, 12:18 PM
The only source for that was whoever leaked the trade request.

I don't think he wants to be that at all.

He pretty much says that in the interview as well.

It's pretty amazing how this characterization has become fact for even intelligent people like CDu. Just shows you the power of media and perception.

The impression I got is that it sucks to hit a series-ending shot, bringing a trophy to Cleveland for the first time in generations... And to get questions like "how does it feel to see Lebron finally bring a banner to the Cavs?"

CDu
09-20-2017, 03:01 PM
The only source for that was whoever leaked the trade request.

I don't think he wants to be that at all.

He pretty much says that in the interview as well.

It's pretty amazing how this characterization has become fact for even intelligent people like CDu. Just shows you the power of media and perception.

I take a bit of exception to the idea that my rationale is media-driven in this case. I'm basing it on context clues. True, he didn't say "I want to be the #1 guy". Of course he is not going to say that. He's more savvy than that. But his suggested reasons for wanting out ("a chance to learn how to be a complete PG") don't really align with his list of teams he was interested in (Knicks and T-Wolves?).

And for the record, I actually think of it as somewhat of a compliment that he'd want to be the #1 guy on a contender rather than stuck as the #2 on a contender. It speaks to his competitiveness and desire for greatness. People gave Durant grief for choosing to team up with an already great team. Well, Irving seems to have chosen to take on more scrutiny/burden by getting out from under LeBron's shadow. I don't know if it will ultimately work out for him, but it's a commendable thing to do.

LasVegas
09-20-2017, 05:50 PM
The impression I got is that it sucks to hit a series-ending shot, bringing a trophy to Cleveland for the first time in generations... And to get questions like "how does it feel to see Lebron finally bring a banner to the Cavs?"

As a Cleveland native, Iím happy kyrie hit the shot but bron is rightfully credited for brining one home for the city. It was his team and he played better in the finals. He put up some ridiculous numbers after falling down 3-1. Not to mention his break away block to save the game in game 7. Kyrie sealed the envelope but Lebron filled it up.