Kyrie Irving Demands Trade: Gets traded to Celtics

[kshepinthehouse]

Uh-oh. Looks like the wheels are falling off.

http://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/20124505/kyrie-irving-seeking-trade-cleveland-cavaliers

[brlftz]

Whoa, Kylie doesn't sound happy: https://twitter.com/wojespn/status/888484370373365760

[MrPoon]

I'm really disappointed in the announcement. It's not a good look to want off a very successful team with the generations most popular player for other players (a pass first superstar). Wanting more of the spotlight but maybe winning less is just the opposite of the current NBA culture.

However, I also completely understand it if the reasoning is something else. The Cavs have been a volitlile place for the last few years. Two coaches in two years, no GM, now no cap flexibility, Love always on the chopping block, an owner who is ... erratic. And finally LBJ on the last year of his contract and rumors flying that he and George are set to go to the Lakers and KI left holding the bag with a roster still maxed out, poor management.

I don't like it but if the idea is to get off the sinking ship first... I can't argue with that logic.

[LasVegas]

Wow. That's a good way to get the public to turn on you. Hopefully there is more to this because I would hate to see KI turned into a villain.

[superdave]

Kyrie has been to three straight Finals and plays with a top 5 player of all time who loves making other guys better.

Kyrie sounds like the problem, if this report is true. He needs to grow up and focus on why his defense regressed in the Finals, not why he thinks he should shoot more.

[MrPoon]

One ESPN line (I'm at a restaurant with TV on mute) said KI to Spurs would make sense after they lost the Chris Paul contest.
I'd be interested to see Pop coach KI on D. But that could be a good fit.

[Dukehky]

I think that it's probably a little of both, ready to do his own thing and part the Cavs are a mess and LeBron might be leaving anyway.

I think it's not necessarily disappointing or childish. There are lots of other industries where you have success and want to go elsewhere to see if you can do it on your own. Lawyers do it all the time, people start businesses, succeed then leave to go to other businesses. It does seem more selfish in team sports, but I have a hard time really getting on the guy for it. I would probably rather play with LeBron that without, but it doesn't mean that everyone has to.

Demanding trades is always a bad look IMO, it's why leaving in FA never bothered me at all.

[jimsumner]

Demands trade.

http://www.cleveland.com/cavs/index.ssf/2017/07/kyrie_irving_asked_the_cavalie.html

[superdave]

I think that it's probably a little of both, ready to do his own thing and part the Cavs are a mess and LeBron might be leaving anyway.

I think it's not necessarily disappointing or childish. There are lots of other industries where you have success and want to go elsewhere to see if you can do it on your own. Lawyers do it all the time, people start businesses, succeed then leave to go to other businesses. It does seem more selfish in team sports, but I have a hard time really getting on the guy for it. I would probably rather play with LeBron that without, but it doesn't mean that everyone has to.

Demanding trades is always a bad look IMO, it's why leaving in FA never bothered me at all.

Could be the the Cavs leaked it to make Kyrie look bad, or the his agent leaked it to alert other teams. Either way, it crushes the locker room.

Why not shut your trap for 12 months, go to a 4th straight Finals with Lebron then figure the rest out?

My guess is Kyrie was miffed the Cavs may have shopped him before the Draft. But this makes him look sour.

[MartyClark]

Demands trade.

http://www.cleveland.com/cavs/index.ssf/2017/07/kyrie_irving_asked_the_cavalie.html

This seems a bit unusual, even by NBA standards. Not a good look for Kyrie.

[JasonEvans]

Ummm, Cavs fans are not going to like him for doing this.

That said, with it seeming more and more likely that Lebron will be gone after next season, I can certainly see why Kyrie would want to find a different home. Even if they lose Lebron, the Cavs will be in a really bad situation cap-wise. They could be in for many years of rebuilding and dealing with bad contracts.

[Selover]

As someone who grew up as a Duke fan in Ohio while Lebron was dominating high school hoops on national TV - I was ecstatic to see Kyrie and Lebron both on the Cavs. I've been a little disappointed with the Lebron to LA rumors and now with news about Kyrie. I will hold out hope until they are gone, but I don't blame either if they decide leaving is best for them. They will continue to be two of my favorite players to watch and cheer for. My opinion of Dan Gilbert, however, is quite different and probably not appropriate for DBR. :rolleyes:

[ipatent]

Cleveland isn't a big media market, which is probably the main reason. It is disappointing to hear the insinuation that Kyrie wants to be the man more than he wants to compete for NBA titles.

Not that I lose sleep over what happens in the NBA.

[cato]

Health permitting Kyrie's best days on the court are ahead of him. But they are not that far away. If he wants out, but stays in Cleveland for the balance of his contract, he may spend his athletic peak putting up meaningless numbers for a lottery team.

It is Kyrie's career and he only has one shot. If now is the time to get out, I will not blame him for doing his best to control his fate.

I'm not too worried about how it looks. As long as his process is solid, I'm 100% in support.

And yes, he did text me before instructing his agent to demand a trade, just to make sure someone on DBR had his back.

[moonpie23]

i definitely do NOT blame KI for trying to get out of that town/team......lebron's not gonna stay.....why not get on a team that's got a shot?

[ncexnyc]

i definitely do NOT blame KI for trying to get out of that town/team...lebron's not gonna stay....why not get on a team that's got a shot?
Now that's really funny considering one of the teams he is willing to go to is the Knicks. I'm really sick of these players getting huge money and then sulking like a little child. Aldridge with the Spurs is a prime example of what I'm talking about. Dude needs to shut-up, honor his contract and put up numbers, the rest will take care of itself.

[JNort]

Now that's really funny considering one of the teams he is willing to go to is the Knicks. I'm really sick of these players getting huge money and then sulking like a little child. Aldridge with the Spurs is a prime example of what I'm talking about. Dude needs to shut-up, honor his contract and put up numbers, the rest will take care of itself.

If the Knicks can snag Kyrie then him and KP would be a great duo to start with. Would enjoy seeing them together.

Melo and sign and trade Rose
For
Kyrie, Frye and someone(s) to clear

[CDu]

If the Knicks can snag Kyrie then him and KP would be a great duo to start with. Would enjoy seeing them together.

Melo and sign and trade Rose
For
Kyrie, Frye and someone(s) to clear

If I am Cleveland's GM, I would hang up the phone... after laughing so hard that I passed out first.

[NSDukeFan]

If I am Cleveland's GM, I would hang up the phone... after laughing so hard that I passed out first.

Aren't you as much of a GM as they have right now? In that case I would recommend not passing out as that could be dangerous.

[CDu]

Aren't you as much of a GM as they have right now? In that case I would recommend not passing out as that could be dangerous.

I think they just hired one. But yeah, I will only hypothetically pass out. :)

[NSDukeFan]

I think they just hired one. But yeah, I will only hypothetically pass out. :)

Good, so not literally. :)

[JNort]

If I am Cleveland's GM, I would hang up the phone... after laughing so hard that I passed out first.

Didn't say it was a great trade but now that the whole league knows Kyrie wants out they can set the price not the Cavs. True the Cavs can turn it down but they would get Melo like they (LeBron) want and get another scorer/playmaker to do something when those 2 aren't on the floor.

[gep]

SI article on why KI's trade rumors "kinda" makes sense...

https://www.si.com/nba/2017/07/21/kyrie-irving-trade-rumors-cavaliers-knicks-heat-spurs-lebron-james

I really like Kyrie... I hope he ends up in a place he really wants to be.

[darthur]

This seems a bit unusual, even by NBA standards. Not a good look for Kyrie.

Screw that -- it's a fine look.

Just stop for a second and remember this is Kyrie's life here. If you have a friend working at a company where he's "succeeding" career-wise but isn't happy, would you blame him for wanting to switch jobs? I hope not. Why would Kyrie be any different? He has been plenty loyal to the Cavs and he has been incredible for them on the biggest stage repeatedly. If he's not happy, he should ask to switch teams, and good for him.

LeBron is an absolutely incredible basketball player. But he also comes in, warps an entire team both on and off the court around him in a way that no other NBA player does, then walks out when he pleases. LeBron sure does win championships, but there's lots of reasons I can think of why Kyrie or anyone else might not enjoy being a part of it. And it doesn't have anything to do with selfishness. So many people criticize KD for leaving his star role on the Thunder to join a team where he could be just another guy and produce greatness on the court, but now we should criticize Kyrie for doing the exact opposite? Again -- screw that.

On the court, I expect great players to play their hearts out until the bitter end. When the season's over, they should choose to do what will make them happy. After all, if you're a professional athlete, you don't get that many chances. Yeah, maybe I'll cheer against someone if I don't like their choice, but I'll never actually think less of them as a human being or as a player.

[MrPoon]

Screw that -- it's a fine look.

Just stop for a second and remember this is Kyrie's life here. If you have a friend working at a company where he's "succeeding" career-wise but isn't happy, would you blame him for wanting to switch jobs? I hope not. Why would Kyrie be any different? He has been plenty loyal to the Cavs and he has been incredible for them on the biggest stage repeatedly. If he's not happy, he should ask to switch teams, and good for him.

LeBron is an absolutely incredible basketball player. But he also comes in, warps an entire team both on and off the court around him in a way that no other NBA player does, then walks out when he pleases. LeBron sure does win championships, but there's lots of reasons I can think of why Kyrie or anyone else might not enjoy being a part of it. And it doesn't have anything to do with selfishness. So many people criticize KD for leaving his star role on the Thunder to join a team where he could be just another guy and produce greatness on the court, but now we should criticize Kyrie for doing the exact opposite? Again -- screw that.

On the court, I expect great players to play their hearts out until the bitter end. When the season's over, they should choose to do what will make them happy. After all, if you're a professional athlete, you don't get that many chances. Yeah, maybe I'll cheer against someone if I don't like their choice, but I'll never actually think less of them as a human being or as a player.

I actually think it can be both.
It isn't a great look. As the league is increasingly about players making teams more than owners and GM, with some players sacrificing money to make winning happen, KI is looking to leave the second best situation in the league. Not a good look. The super stars he believes (as do I) that he belongs to are working together to make super teams and KI is looking to leave as good of a situation as there is east of GS. Plus he has the player that everyone supposedly wants to play with.

However, he is not entirely wrong to want to leave. LBJ has set this up to work perfectly... for him and him alone. Ask Wade, who took less than max money to get LBJ to Miami about LBJs loyalty. Ask Bosh and Riley about how Team LBJ works. KI looks at the Cavs as a mess. They can't find a legit GM at a realistic price. They are capped out while other teams are getting better. And most of all, rumors swirl around LBJ leaving for LA or anywhere he with the next super team (George etc) while KI is left with the mop bucket after he leaves, just as Wade was. Why would you want to be the last man on a sinking ship? KI should have spoken to LBJ perhaps before this was made public but his thinking isn't too different than a younger LBJ wanting out of Cleveland the first time.
Why let mercenaries like LBJ and Rich Paul dictatate the trajectory of your career? Why trust a half-calked owner like Gilber?

Makes me sad as a KI fan and a fan of the Cavs. Feels like Icarus, soaring too high, the sun too hot and crashing down. The Cav could never be destined for long term success! (As a past season ticket holder)

[darthur]

I actually think it can be both.
It isn't a great look. As the league is increasingly about players making teams more than owners and GM, with some players sacrificing money to make winning happen, KI is looking to leave the second best situation in the league. Not a good look. The super stars he believes (as do I) that he belongs to are working together to make super teams and KI is looking to leave as good of a situation as there is east of GS. Plus he has the player that everyone supposedly wants to play with.)

He's not wrong to want to leave at all.

You explain exactly why Kyrie's situation in Cleveland has problems, and the only good thing you can offer is the team wins. Yes that matters but Kyrie's now been there done that after starring in a championship run. And it's not the only thing that matters. If Kyrie wants to experience some of those other things while he still can, that's his business and it is a perfectly fine thing. Yes, it decreases his chance of winning more rings. But KD isn't a better player/person because he opted to take an easy road to a ring, and Kyrie isn't a worse player/person for doing something different.

[YmoBeThere]

Why would he want to go to the Spurs? He definitely wouldn't be the focal point...

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

Why would he want to go to the Spurs? He definitely wouldn't be the focal point...

Perhaps he is just sick of LBJ. I would say that James is one of the most loud and catered to athletes on the planet (and admittedly one of the most talented) whereas Leonard is one of the least visible and most soft-spoken stars the NBA has seen since, well, Duncan?

I would get tired of the "Real Housewives of Lebron" show after a few years. The Spurs have historically been the polar opposite. Win games, get rings, don't land on magazine covers - or whatever today's social media equivalent is.

[rocketeli]

Screw that -- it's a fine look.

Just stop for a second and remember this is Kyrie's life here. If you have a friend working at a company where he's "succeeding" career-wise but isn't happy, would you blame him for wanting to switch jobs? I hope not. Why would Kyrie be any different? He has been plenty loyal to the Cavs and he has been incredible for them on the biggest stage repeatedly. If he's not happy, he should ask to switch teams, and good for him.

LeBron is an absolutely incredible basketball player. But he also comes in, warps an entire team both on and off the court around him in a way that no other NBA player does, then walks out when he pleases. LeBron sure does win championships, but there's lots of reasons I can think of why Kyrie or anyone else might not enjoy being a part of it. And it doesn't have anything to do with selfishness. So many people criticize KD for leaving his star role on the Thunder to join a team where he could be just another guy and produce greatness on the court, but now we should criticize Kyrie for doing the exact opposite? Again -- screw that.

On the court, I expect great players to play their hearts out until the bitter end. When the season's over, they should choose to do what will make them happy. After all, if you're a professional athlete, you don't get that many chances. Yeah, maybe I'll cheer against someone if I don't like their choice, but I'll never actually think less of them as a human being or as a player.

I said this on this forum before, a few years ago, that one thing the Cavs organization does well is smear players who have the gall to want to leave. Remember how they made Boozer out to be such a villain for refusing to take a contract that underpaid him by about 20 million dollars? Remember all the crap Lebron got? Remember how Irving wasn't a team player etc, etc, when they thought he would leave a few yeas ago? Don't get sucked into their drama.

[CDu]

Irving is totally within his right to want to play elsewhere. It probably won't be a good career move for him, as LeBron covers up a lot of Irving's defenciencies (poor PG instincts, awful defense). But if Irving wants to be the BMOC on a team that isn't nearly as good as the Cavs, that is his prerogative.

[LasVegas]

It's crazy how some will defend kyrie for requesting a trade while bashing the crap out of Lebron for going to a different team in free agency.

[CDu]

It's crazy how some will defend kyrie for requesting a trade while bashing the crap out of Lebron for going to a different team in free agency.

Totally agree. Both are well within their rights to do what they want with their lives/careers. Though I think many/most who bash LeBron do so for "The Decision", not actually leaving. As for Irving, I think a Duke message board is pretty much the only place where he is getting defended on this.

The thing that gets me about this for Irving is the timing. The window to make trades was before the draft and before free agency when teams were making deals. Instead, he waited until after, which greatly limits his and the Cavs' opportunities. It is a bad look. And without a no-trade clause, he has no leverage to pick his landing spot. So most likely - if a deal is made - he will end up on a bad team. Basically in the same spot he was pre-LeBron. He would undoubtedly get all the opportunities to star, but if he can't lead said team to the playoffs, his rep will potentially return to what it was before LeBron went home.

This isn't likely to work out well for Irving. Topping off a rough 2017 for him with the "world is flat" nonsense.

I hope it works out for him, but I am not overly optimistic about it.

[sagegrouse]

It's crazy how some will defend kyrie for requesting a trade while bashing the crap out of Lebron for going to a different team in free agency.

A couple of potential irritants for Kyrie, although from a team standpoint, LeBron has so far been worth the price. For one, we have essentially a power forward taking over as point guard for long stretches. This is not great if you're the point guard. Second, it appears that not only is LeBron a "coach on the floor," but sometimes he just acts as coach -- period. It was obvious in the former regime of David Blatt, and less so now with Tyronn Lue -- but let's remember that Lebron picked Lue as coach. Moreover, trades appear to get cleared with LeBron -- so is LBJ also the de facto GM?

[darthur]

Totally agree. Both are well within their rights to do what they want with their lives/careers. Though I think many/most who bash LeBron do so for "The Decision", not actually leaving. As for Irving, I think a Duke message board is pretty much the only place where he is getting defended on this.

I also read reddit NBA fwiw and he's not really getting bashed there. That may come later though -- I think people are mostly still just surprised/shocked. :)

[dukebluesincebirth]

Not surprised at all and support Kyrie 100%. He hit the 3 that brought the trophy to a desperate Cleveland fan base. They don't have the firepower to beat GS now, and then Lebron is gone. You think Kyrie wants to stay in Cleveland, Ohio and play with what's left? No way. Cleveland should thank him for the trophy and wish him well. It's not about money anymore for Kyrie. It's about his professional happiness.

[kAzE]

This is bad timing and bad messaging (saying he wants to be the focal point of the offense), but I can definitely see some potential scenarios where this makes sense. I can't possibly imagine that Kyrie meant for this to go public, so he is probably just as upset over the optics of it as anyone. My best guess is that he found out LeBron is gone after this year and he wants to get out before that happens.

He knows better than anyone what Dan Gilbert and the Cavs organization is like (they would be like the Kings if not for LeBron), and came to the conclusion that if he were stuck in Cleveland with no LeBron, it would be miserable. They would be a team with a ton of bad contracts, no draft picks, and over the salary cap for the entirety of Kyrie's prime.

But now that it's done, I'm a BIG fan of Kyrie in San Antonio. He's Tony Parker on super-soldier serum. Popovich would turn him into an MVP candidate, and Kawhi is the perfect superstar teammate for him. He's basically LeBron without the ego. I hope it happens.

[SilkyJ]

This sounds like Kyrie is just beating Lebron to the punch. Classic relationship breakup strategy: "you're going to break up with me down the road, so I'll just break up with you now."

For all the same reasons Lebron is probably gone from Cleveland after next year (disfunctional org, probably can't beat the dubs as currently constructed, already won a championship), Kyrie should want out.

Lebron is chasing championships and is willing to bounce around to do it. No reason Kyrie shouldn't as well.

[kAzE]

This sounds like Kyrie is just beating Lebron to the punch. Classic relationship breakup strategy: "you're going to break up with me down the road, so I'll just break up with you now."

For all the same reasons Lebron is probably gone from Cleveland after next year (disfunctional org, probably can't beat the dubs as currently constructed, already won a championship), Kyrie should want out.

Lebron is chasing championships and is willing to bounce around to do it. No reason Kyrie shouldn't as well.

100% agree. Kyrie is 25, so his next 5 years are going to be his absolute peak. He's doesn't have any leverage in this situation, but he has every right to want to be in the best situation for his career, rather than wasting 2 years of his prime playing for a crappy Cavs franchise when LeBron leaves.

[superdave]

SI article on why KI's trade rumors "kinda" makes sense...

https://www.si.com/nba/2017/07/21/kyrie-irving-trade-rumors-cavaliers-knicks-heat-spurs-lebron-james

I really like Kyrie... I hope he ends up in a place he really wants to be.

Key part of this article -

Why should Irving commit to Cleveland when James himself won’t? Tying yourself to LeBron also means tying yourself to someone who wants to maximize his leverage and always have an escape plan ready at all times. Irving’s trade demand could be as much about on-court fit as it is about LeBron’s unparalleled control over the organization.

[jbay201]

only reason for all the hate outside this board is because lebron has been put on a pedestal and worshipped by the media as a god. He even has a reporter whose only job is follow him around 24/7 and report anything he does (Brian Wordhorst).

Kyrie hit the game winning shot in game 7 not lebron, ray allen hit the game tying shot in game 6 (lebron missed the previous attempt) but as long as lebron's team wins its only because of him. People forget how Lebron in the prime of his career failed to win against Mavs with a 35 year old Dirk and 40 year old Jason Kidd and how he simply quit against Orlando the season before he came to Miami. Lebron isn't the greatest player of all time (not even close) and especially now when shooting and 3 pointers are much more important. His defense has become average at best as seen this finals by KD driving past him multiple times with ease as well as launching 3's over him at will.

I fully support Kyrie's decision to get off Cavs now and demand a trade. It will be good for his career and I believe he can actually greatly improve all aspects of his game including passing and defense if he gets a great coach (Lue is just a yes man for LBJ and doesn't know anything about basketball strategy). The fact he is considering Spurs means he knows he will need to adapt his game. I think the real reason he wants to leave is because he can't stand lebron james and his arrogance. I am sure LBJ blames Kyrie for losing to the warriors. Even in Miami, LBJ had issues with Dwade and the two of them are best friends. LBJ is a jerk and only cares about himself and his legacy.

Cleveland sucks as a place to live. LBJ is a god there and everyone else is to blame if they ever lose. I'm sure LBJ will leave to ring chase after a year and can't wait to see all the dumb cavs fans burn his jersey again.

[FadedTackyShirt]

I said this on this forum before, a few years ago, that one thing the Cavs organization does well is smear players who have the gall to want to leave. Remember how they made Boozer out to be such a villain for refusing to take a contract that underpaid him by about 20 million dollars? Remember all the crap Lebron got? Remember how Irving wasn't a team player etc, etc, when they thought he would leave a few yeas ago? Don't get sucked into their drama.

Starts at the top with Dan Gilbert. LBJ's Heat intro was in extremely poor taste, but Gilbert's response was worse. He trashed the best pro athlete Cleveland has ever had and was very fortunate that LBJ returned.

'Dubs are extremely talented, but they also have a seamless organization from ownership to Bob Myers to Kerr to the players.

[Indoor66]

Starts at the top with Dan Gilbert. LBJ's Heat intro was in extremely poor taste, but Gilbert's response was worse. He trashed the best pro athlete Cleveland has ever had and was very fortunate that LBJ returned.

'Dubs are extremely talented, but they also have a seamless organization from ownership to Bob Myers to Kerr to the players.

Jim Brown is waving hello re best.

[LasVegas]

Cleveland sucks as a place to live. LBJ is a god there and everyone else is to blame if they ever lose. I'm sure LBJ will leave to ring chase after a year and can't wait to see all the dumb cavs fans burn his jersey again.

Have you ever lived there?

[budwom]

The Cavs thought seriously about trading Kyrie around draft time, so why shouldn't he tell them he wants to leave?

[SilkyJ]

Key part of this article -

Why should Irving commit to Cleveland when James himself won’t? Tying yourself to LeBron also means tying yourself to someone who wants to maximize his leverage and always have an escape plan ready at all times. Irving’s trade demand could be as much about on-court fit as it is about LeBron’s unparalleled control over the organization.

While I basically agree, the argument against the bolded part is that he has already committed himself, literally, to Cleveland by signing a large 5 year deal a few years ago.

The counter-argument to that, which Brian Windhorst made on PTI, is that Kyrie signed the contract before Lebron was there and without knowing that Lebron would be coming there.

He embraced Lebron for 3 years and gave everything he had to Cleveland in that time, including winning a championship. I'm fine if he wants a different look now.

I also think this goes overlooked: if Kyrie wants out, doesn't asking for a trade now actually HELP Cleveland, especially b/c he has 2 years left on his deal? If you're a fan base and you know a guy is going to leave, would you rather:

1) lose him in free agency like Utah did with Hayward
2) get 60 cents on the dollar like Indy did with Paul George b/c he has 1 year left
3) get 40 cents on the dollar as the Clippers did with CP3, b/c he was going to opt-out
4) get a ton of assets, or maybe 90-100 cents on the dollar, for Kyrie b/c he still has 2 years left?

While clearly option "5" -- stay in Cleveland -- is the best option, if he wants out then I would think asking for a trade with 2 years left gives Cleveland the best negotiating leverage in a trade.

Most everyone agrees that CP3 and Paul George did their team a little favor by alerting them that they were going to leave. Kyrie is doing the same thing but gives the organization a ton of leverage to find a fair trade.

Kyrie is a top 10 player in the league and its an arms race to catch the dubs. They should be able to get a ton of value in a trade with 2 years left on his deal.

[Neals384]

Irving is totally within his right to want to play elsewhere. It probably won't be a good career move for him, as LeBron covers up a lot of Irving's defenciencies (poor PG instincts, awful defense). But if Irving wants to be the BMOC on a team that isn't nearly as good as the Cavs, that is his prerogative.

Generally agree re. Kyrie's defense, but there was this:

https://thumbs.gfycat.com/WellmadeValidKouprey-size_restricted.gif

[CDu]

Kyrie is a top 10 player in the league and its an arms race to catch the dubs. They should be able to get a ton of value in a trade with 2 years left on his deal.

Irving is not a top-10 player in the league. He is an elite dribbler and very good scorer at all levels. But that is pretty much all he brings at even an above-average level. He has very poor PG instincts, and is abysmal on defense. Getting LeBron was a perfect thing for Cleveland to do because it allowed Irving to stop playing PG and focus on what he does best. But honestly, I would have trouble putting Irving in the top-20, and definitely nowhere near top-10.

Guys easily ahead of Irving: LeBron, Durant, Curry, Leonard, Paul, Westbrook, Harden, Davis, Butler, George, Green, Greek freak, Wall, Towns, Jordan, and Cousins. Other guys I wouldn't bat an eye at if they were above Irving: Lillard, Griffin, Conley, Millsap, and Gasol.

If we ignore positional needs and only look at the offensive half of the game, Irving could be top-10. When you take into account roles (PG need to pass, bigs need to rebound/defend the lane) and consider both ends of the court, Irving's rank drops quickly.

[CDu]

Generally agree re. Kyrie's defense, but there was this:

https://thumbs.gfycat.com/WellmadeValidKouprey-size_restricted.gif

Yep. Irving's defense in those last three games of 2016 were solid. No doubt he has the physical tools to be a decent defender. He just has never shown even the slightest long-term commitment on that end.

[dudog84]

This sounds like Kyrie is just beating Lebron to the punch. Classic relationship breakup strategy: "you're going to break up with me down the road, so I'll just break up with you now."

For all the same reasons Lebron is probably gone from Cleveland after next year (disfunctional org, probably can't beat the dubs as currently constructed, already won a championship), Kyrie should want out.

Lebron is chasing championships and is willing to bounce around to do it. No reason Kyrie shouldn't as well.

A man without hand is not a man. (sorry, can never resist a chance for a Seinfeld reference)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=887bIe0hXyc

And Indoor66 beat me to it. Jim Brown wants to talk to a lot of people who don't think sports existed before they were born.

[SilkyJ]

Guys easily ahead of Irving: LeBron, Durant, Curry, Leonard, Paul, Westbrook, Harden, Davis, Butler, George, Green, Greek freak, Wall, Towns, Jordan, and Cousins. Other guys I wouldn't bat an eye at if they were above Irving: Lillard, Griffin, Conley, Millsap, and Gasol.


Reasonable minds can differ, but John Wall, Damian Lillard, and Mike Conley are all guys who couldn't make Team USA ahead of Kyrie. At some point they've ALL been cut or dropped out in favor of Kyrie. Kyrie was the starting PG in '14 & '16. And it wouldn't be crazy to take him over Paul at this stage in CP3s career (and I'm a big CP3 defender/fan).

Millsap is solid, but another guy who can't make Team USA. 37 year old Pau Gasol? Please.

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

A man without hand is not a man.

The Lannisters send their regards.

[DukeTrinity11]

Irving is not a top-10 player in the league. He is an elite dribbler and very good scorer at all levels. But that is pretty much all he brings at even an above-average level. He has very poor PG instincts, and is abysmal on defense. Getting LeBron was a perfect thing for Cleveland to do because it allowed Irving to stop playing PG and focus on what he does best. But honestly, I would have trouble putting Irving in the top-20, and definitely nowhere near top-10.

Guys easily ahead of Irving: LeBron, Durant, Curry, Leonard, Paul, Westbrook, Harden, Davis, Butler, George, Green, Greek freak, Wall, Towns, Jordan, and Cousins. Other guys I wouldn't bat an eye at if they were above Irving: Lillard, Griffin, Conley, Millsap, and Gasol.

If we ignore positional needs and only look at the offensive half of the game, Irving could be top-10. When you take into account roles (PG need to pass, bigs need to rebound/defend the lane) and consider both ends of the court, Irving's rank drops quickly.
Kyrie Irving is better than John Wall, Draymond Green, KAT, Jordan and Cousins.

We're talking about the 3rd best scorer in the NBA here behind Curry and Durant.

I reject the notion that defense is equally as important as offense, especially the ability to create your own shot.

If offense and defense were to be weighed equally would you say,

Tony Allen is as good as Kyrie Irving?
Patrick Beverley is as good as Kyrie Irving?

Those 2 guys get a 10/10 on defense while Irving gets a 10/10 on offense.

Give me the best offensive talents in the league any day of the week and I'll find a smart GM who can put elite defenders around them.

Vice versa? Not so much.

[CDu]

Reasonable minds can differ, but John Wall, Damian Lillard, and Mike Conley are all guys who couldn't make Team USA ahead of Kyrie. At some point they've ALL been cut or dropped out in favor of Kyrie. Kyrie was the starting PG in '14 & '16. And it wouldn't be crazy to take him over Paul at this stage in CP3s career (and I'm a big CP3 defender/fan).

I would put more stock in NBA performance last year than a semi-tryout for essentially an All-Star team in which the decisionmaker was his former coach. And in terms of NBA performance, yeah, all of those guys were better.

And even if you took those guys away (which as I said I wouldn't), I still count easily more than 10.


37 year old Pau Gasol? Please.

No, I was referring to the other Gasol, who is one of the best two-way bigs in the NBA.

[CDu]

Kyrie Irving is better than John Wall, Draymond Green, KAT, Jordan and Cousins.

We're talking about the 3rd best scorer in the NBA here behind Curry and Durant.

I reject the notion that defense is equally as important as offense, especially the ability to create your own shot.

If offense and defense were to be weighed equally would you say,

Tony Allen is as good as Kyrie Irving?
Patrick Beverley is as good as Kyrie Irving?

Those 2 guys get a 10/10 on defense while Irving gets a 10/10 on offense.

Give me the best offensive talents in the league any day of the week and I'll find a smart GM who can put elite defenders around them.

Vice versa? Not so much.

No, Irving is not hetter than those guys. And absolutely no, he is not the third best scorer in the NBA. Durant, Westbrook, Harden, James, Curry, Davis, Thomas, Leonard, and Towns are better scorers. Irving is in a category with Lillard, Cousins, George, and Butler as a scorer. Very good at scoring, maybe even top-10. But no, not top-5 and definitely not top-3.

And I agree that offense should be weighted more than defense. Just not to the degree you do, apparently. Defense matters. It is why Thomas (a better scorer than Irving) also doesn't crack my top-10 as a player, and probably not top-20. There are just too many really good scorers who also play on the other end of the floor.

That isn't to say Irving isn't good. He is one of the top 20 or so players on the planet, and at 25 could move up as some guys age out. That is fantastic. But let's not get carried away here. Irving is a guy who has benefited greatly from playing alongside the best player in the world, which has taken defensive focus away from him. Not that he would be bad without James, but LeBron has a way of masking one's deficiencies.

[vick]

Kyrie Irving is better than John Wall, Draymond Green, KAT, Jordan and Cousins.

We're talking about the 3rd best scorer in the NBA here behind Curry and Durant.

I reject the notion that defense is equally as important as offense, especially the ability to create your own shot.

If offense and defense were to be weighed equally would you say,

Tony Allen is as good as Kyrie Irving?
Patrick Beverley is as good as Kyrie Irving?

Those 2 guys get a 10/10 on defense while Irving gets a 10/10 on offense.

Give me the best offensive talents in the league any day of the week and I'll find a smart GM who can put elite defenders around them.

Vice versa? Not so much.

Kyrie vs. Draymond is not close; Draymond is much, much better (https://espn.go.com/nba/statistics/rpm/_/sort/RPM). Defense matters.

Look, I like Kyrie, but let's get real for a second. The Cavs were legitimately terrible with Kyrie and without Lebron-- -120 over 635 minutes (https://twitter.com/tomhaberstroh/status/888490238020014080) (and in case anyone is wondering, that's more possessions of basketball than an entire ACC season, so not a small sample). There's just no evidence from actual performance that he's anywhere near a top-10 player in the league--even stats that do a poor job accounting for defense (win shares, PER, etc.) don't claim that. Once you account for defense, there's really no case at all.

[sagegrouse]

Irving is not a top-10 player in the league. He is an elite dribbler and very good scorer at all levels. But that is pretty much all he brings at even an above-average level. He has very poor PG instincts, and is abysmal on defense. Getting LeBron was a perfect thing for Cleveland to do because it allowed Irving to stop playing PG and focus on what he does best. But honestly, I would have trouble putting Irving in the top-20, and definitely nowhere near top-10.

Guys easily ahead of Irving: LeBron, Durant, Curry, Leonard, Paul, Westbrook, Harden, Davis, Butler, George, Green, Greek freak, Wall, Towns, Jordan, and Cousins. Other guys I wouldn't bat an eye at if they were above Irving: Lillard, Griffin, Conley, Millsap, and Gasol.

If we ignore positional needs and only look at the offensive half of the game, Irving could be top-10. When you take into account roles (PG need to pass, bigs need to rebound/defend the lane) and consider both ends of the court, Irving's rank drops quickly.

I dunno, CDu. Who picks the All-Star teams? Kyrie has made it four of the last five years, missing only when he was hurt in 2015-2016, which was the year he won an NBA championship. Who was it that said: "Scoring is really important. Lots of people can play defense."

[DevilFalcon]

This just means Bron Bron is gone gone, again.

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

I wonder if this sort of spirited debate over whether Kyrie is top ten or if he is top 25 is part of why he wants to make his own mark? Whichever side you are on, it might be a different conversation in 18 months.

[Indoor66]

I wonder if this sort of spirited debate over whether Kyrie is top ten or if he is top 25 is part of why he wants to make his own mark? Whichever side you are on, it might be a different conversation in 18 months.

Not trying to be a smart a....leck, but all these conversations WILL be different in 18 months.

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

Not trying to be a smart a...leck, but all these conversations WILL be different in 18 months.

Well, sure. But my point is that conversations like this, with some people saying he is a top five talent, top scorer, etc, and other saying he's not even close to that level - well, we will find out when/if he strikes out on his own.

I think it is a smart move for Kyrie. LBJ is going to leave a steaming mess in Cleveland when he leaves, and Irving doesn't want to deal with whatever the next process is with that repugnant ownership.

Additionally, I think the microscope that LeBron brings with him to any situation is exhausting. Every quote/Tweet/gesture is analyzed on ESPN for a week.

I haven't heard much negative discussion about this in regards to Kyrie. I think most folks understand him wanting to get the heck outta Dodge.

[superdave]

only reason for all the hate outside this board is because lebron has been put on a pedestal and worshipped by the media as a god. He even has a reporter whose only job is follow him around 24/7 and report anything he does (Brian Wordhorst).

Kyrie hit the game winning shot in game 7 not lebron, ray allen hit the game tying shot in game 6 (lebron missed the previous attempt) but as long as lebron's team wins its only because of him. People forget how Lebron in the prime of his career failed to win against Mavs with a 35 year old Dirk and 40 year old Jason Kidd and how he simply quit against Orlando the season before he came to Miami. Lebron isn't the greatest player of all time (not even close) and especially now when shooting and 3 pointers are much more important. His defense has become average at best as seen this finals by KD driving past him multiple times with ease as well as launching 3's over him at will.

I fully support Kyrie's decision to get off Cavs now and demand a trade. It will be good for his career and I believe he can actually greatly improve all aspects of his game including passing and defense if he gets a great coach (Lue is just a yes man for LBJ and doesn't know anything about basketball strategy). The fact he is considering Spurs means he knows he will need to adapt his game. I think the real reason he wants to leave is because he can't stand lebron james and his arrogance. I am sure LBJ blames Kyrie for losing to the warriors. Even in Miami, LBJ had issues with Dwade and the two of them are best friends. LBJ is a jerk and only cares about himself and his legacy.

Cleveland sucks as a place to live. LBJ is a god there and everyone else is to blame if they ever lose. I'm sure LBJ will leave to ring chase after a year and can't wait to see all the dumb cavs fans burn his jersey again.

My problem with this is Kyrie should handle this more quietly. Part of this narrative in the media now is likely due to the Cavs leaking it to make Kyrie look bad. I really dont like Kyrie wanting to be the man; he should be more concerned about winning. He has not shown he can carry a 50+ win team. My other problem is that Kyrie should stick it out for another year and make one last title run. He seems to want to bail now because he has more leverage, which makes sense for him.

As others have said, his timing is bad. He missed his window pre-draft where big trades happen. So he is going to be in a locker room that knows he does not want to be there and knows Lebron didnt recruit free agents all summer because he's leaving in 2018. Going to be ugly.

[CDu]

I dunno, CDu. Who picks the All-Star teams? Kyrie has made it four of the last five years, missing only when he was hurt in 2015-2016, which was the year he won an NBA championship. Who was it that said: "Scoring is really important. Lots of people can play defense."

Fans pick All-Star starters.

Also, the talent distribution is not equal between conferences. Especially at PG. Irving, IS a top-12 guy and top 2-3 PG in the East. He is at best a borderline top 12 if in the West, and is at best the 4th best PG over there.

And again, I am not saying he isn't a top-25 guy. Just that he isn't nearly a top-10 player.

Vick makes the case pretty well: Irving has REALLY benefited from having LeBron take defensive attention off Irving. When LeBron isn't on the floor but Irving is, the Cavs are a train wreck.

And that is ok. Irving is just 25 and can get better. But let's not overstate his greatness at the moment.

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

My problem with this is Kyrie should handle this more quietly. Part of this narrative in the media now is likely due to the Cavs leaking it to make Kyrie look bad.

How is it Kyrie's fault that he didn't handle it quietly if people seem to agree that Gilbert leaked this to make Irving look bad?

Cavs management is a poop-show that got lucky LeBron was determined to take a trophy home. I suspect the franchise is headed back into the basement for the foreseeable future.

[CDu]

I wonder if this sort of spirited debate over whether Kyrie is top ten or if he is top 25 is part of why he wants to make his own mark? Whichever side you are on, it might be a different conversation in 18 months.

Well, at the risk of joining Indoor66 in possibly sounding smart-a...lecky, of course it will be different in 18 months. Some young players will improve and move up (or onto) the list. Some older players will hit their decline phase and fall down or off the list. Irving is just 25, so improvement is definitely still available to him. Guys like Towns, Davis, Porzingis, and Booker could join Irving on the rise (not to mention guys from more recent classes). Guyslike Gasol and Paul could fall down. But we are talking about rankings right now, so 18 months from now isn't going to tell us much about right now.

[dukebluesincebirth]

FWIW, Avery Bradley (considered one of the best young defenders in the NBA), was asked in a recent interview about which players were the hardest to defend. He said Kyrie, and said it wasn't even close. The dude is a phenomenal scorer who can't be stopped when he's at his best. He also showed clutch scoring ability with the dagger 3 in the Finals, bringing his squad the trophy. Clutch is something not every NBA scorer has proven. Let's give Mr. Irving (a Dukie don't forget) a little more love!

[ice-9]

Fans pick All-Star starters.

Also, the talent distribution is not equal between conferences. Especially at PG. Irving, IS a top-12 guy and top 2-3 PG in the East. He is at best a borderline top 12 if in the West, and is at best the 4th best PG over there.

And again, I am not saying he isn't a top-25 guy. Just that he isn't nearly a top-10 player.

Vick makes the case pretty well: Irving has REALLY benefited from having LeBron take defensive attention off Irving. When LeBron isn't on the floor but Irving is, the Cavs are a train wreck.

And that is ok. Irving is just 25 and can get better. But let's not overstate his greatness at the moment.

Well, as others have pointed out, this kind of thinking might be exactly why Kyrie wants out.

Is Harden a better offensive player than Kyrie? I don't think they're far apart, and a good argument can be made that individually Kyrie is more talented.

You use the LeBron-less Cavs as an argument for why Kyrie isn't that great -- but that's a team built specifically for LeBron, not for Kyrie.

Substitute Harden for Kyrie in the Rockets under D'Antoni and will we really be arguing about whether Kyrie is a top 10 offensive player? Or a top 25 overall player?

I specifically picked Harden as the example because he's a terrible defender too. And in the first few years of being the league he wasn't a great distributor either.

Anyway, we'll see.

[CDu]

Well, as others have pointed out, this kind of thinking might be exactly why Kyrie wants out.

Is Harden a better offensive player than Kyrie? I don't think they're far apart, and a good argument can be made that individually Kyrie is more talented.

You use the LeBron-less Cavs as an argument for why Kyrie isn't that great -- but that's a team built specifically for LeBron, not for Kyrie.

Substitute Harden for Kyrie in the Rockets under D'Antoni and will we really be arguing about whether Kyrie is a top 10 offensive player? Or a top 25 overall player?

I specifically picked Harden as the example because he's a terrible defender too. And in the first few years of being the league he wasn't a great PG either.

Anyway, we'll see.

Umm, YES Harden is a better offensive player than Irving. Despite being the focal point of every defense he faces (Irving is a distant second on his team in terms of facing defensive focus), and despite taking on a higher volume of shots, Harden was a more efficient scorer than Irving. And Harden is a better passer. Harden is also a bad on-ball defender, but is a FAR better rebounder. And all of this was true before D'Antoni arrived in Houston this past year.

Irving is not in Harden's category. And again, that is fine. Irving is still REALLY good. Just not quite THAT good.

[drummerdevil]

Umm, YES Harden is a better offensive player than Irving. Despite being the focal point of every defense he faces (Irving is a distant second on his team in terms of facing defensive focus), and despite taking on a higher volume of shots, Harden was a more efficient scorer than Irving. And Harden is a better passer. Harden is also a bad on-ball defender, but is a FAR better rebounder. And all of this was true before D'Antoni arrived in Houston this past year.

Irving is not in Harden's category. And again, that is fine. Irving is still REALLY good. Just not quite THAT good.

However, James Harden is the focal point of defenses because he has no one else good on his team. Kyrie has LeBron on his team, and no matter how good you are, LeBron is the focal point of the defense. LeBron is the focal point over Kyrie like he would be over Harden, like he was over prime D Wade, who was arguably better than James Harden is now. Irving is arguably the better shooter, and arguably more difficult to guard. He has better handles and is a better, craftier finisher.

Either way, it's a difficult comparison to make. Kyrie is the second option on his team, whereas Harden is indisputably the best on his. Maybe next year, when Kyrie is leading a team, he will be MVP. Or maybe, he'll get traded and be part of, I don't know, the timberwolves or the spurs where he is again in elite company and won't get as many shots.

The best ways to make that comparison are:

If Kyrie is still on the cavs, next year's Kyrie vs next year's Harden

If Kyrie is leading a team, next year's Kyrie vs this year's Harden

If Kyrie is still on a team where he isn't the first option and Harden/Paul don't work out, causing harden to be his old ball-dominant self, this year's Kyrie vs Harden on the Thunder.

[CDu]

However, James Harden is the focal point of defenses because he has no one else good on his team. Kyrie has LeBron on his team, and no matter how good you are, LeBron is the focal point of the defense. LeBron is the focal point over Kyrie like he would be over Harden, like he was over prime D Wade, who was arguably better than James Harden is now. Irving is arguably the better shooter, and arguably more difficult to guard. He has better handles and is a better, craftier finisher.

Either way, it's a difficult comparison to make. Kyrie is the second option on his team, whereas Harden is indisputably the best on his. Maybe next year, when Kyrie is leading a team, he will be MVP. Or maybe, he'll get traded and be part of, I don't know, the timberwolves or the spurs where he is again in elite company and won't get as many shots.

The best ways to make that comparison are:

If Kyrie is still on the cavs, next year's Kyrie vs next year's Harden

If Kyrie is leading a team, next year's Kyrie vs this year's Harden

If Kyrie is still on a team where he isn't the first option and Harden/Paul don't work out, causing harden to be his old ball-dominant self, this year's Kyrie vs Harden on the Thunder.

I am pretty sure you missed the point of my "focal point" argument. It has nothing to do with who is better by itself.

Being the focal point of the defense makes it harder to score efficiently than being the #2 option. So for Harden to be more efficient than Irving despite Harden being the focal point while Irving was not further illustrates that Harden is the better offensive player. He had to face more defensive focus and STILL scored more efficiently than Irving.

[ice-9]

Umm, YES Harden is a better offensive player than Irving. Despite being the focal point of every defense he faces (Irving is a distant second on his team in terms of facing defensive focus), and despite taking on a higher volume of shots, Harden was a more efficient scorer than Irving. And Harden is a better passer. Harden is also a bad on-ball defender, but is a FAR better rebounder. And all of this was true before D'Antoni arrived in Houston this past year.

Irving is not in Harden's category. And again, that is fine. Irving is still REALLY good. Just not quite THAT good.

I'm not ready to anoint Irving as top 10 either just yet but it's still worth pointing out that you're comparing Harden and a team built specifically for Harden with Kyrie and a team specifically built for LeBron.

[CDu]

I'm not ready to anoint Irving as top 10 either just yet but it's still worth pointing out (again) that you're comparing Harden and a team built specifically for Harden with Kyrie and a team specifically built for LeBron.

Irving and James play the same perimeter-based iso game. You want floor-spacers around them. So the Cavs are built for Irving just as much as they are built for James. And again, Irving benefits greatly from James taking away the defense's focus. I would say that way more than offsets any potential challenges introduced by the team potentially not being built around his strengths.

Also, Harden has pretty much always been the more efficient player. Not just the past two years.

This is all silly. Comparing Irving to the very best players in the game is setting him up for unnecessary criticism. The guy is better than at least 95% of NBA players and 99.9% of professional basketball players. That he isn't quite as good as the top 15 or so players at the moment isn't some sort of bad thing.

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

I am pretty sure you missed the point of my "focal point" argument. It has nothing to do with who is better by itself.

Being the focal point of the defense makes it harder to score efficiently than being the #2 option. So for Harden to be more efficient than Irving despite Harden being the focal point while Irving was not further illustrates that Harden is the better offensive player. He had to face more defensive focus and STILL scored more efficiently than Irving.

Sure, but you are also neglecting that Irving is the second focus of the defense for the explicit reason that he is the second focus of the offense.

May or may not balance out. Perhaps we will see (in the next 18 months).

[drummerdevil]

I still have to think you can't make the Irving/Harden comparison. They don't play the same role. Look at Harden on the Thunder, with players better than him. And look at him now. We can't truly solve this debate until Kyrie can have his own team.

(Hey Kyrie! Come to the T'Wolves! You can shoot whenever you want!)

[Duke79UNLV77]

Kyrie vs. Draymond is not close; Draymond is much, much better (https://espn.go.com/nba/statistics/rpm/_/sort/RPM). Defense matters.

To me, Kyrie is the most underrated and Draymond is the most overrated star in the NBA now. Offense also matters, and Draymond is a really, really bad scorer. Draymond never has to take any shot other than a wide open practice jumper, a dunk or layup, or a very occasional post move if someone 6'5" or smaller gets matched up on him. And yet he still shoots a very poor percentage from 2 and 3. I'd expect Curry to hit 75% or better if he could just take the 3s Draymond takes. Draymond is a great fit as a role player on the most talented team in basketball, but I think if you put him on a really bad team, he wouldn't help that much. Plus, stupid technicals and fouls aren't an excuse that some offer for Draymond's no-shows in big games; they are who he is.

Kyrie doesn't get enough credit for shooting much better percentages and having many fewer turnovers than almost all of the other elite guards. He doesn't have as many assists, but I don't think any point guard playing with LeBron would average 10 assists. I think his bad defense also has become a bit of a group think truism. When they won the title, he had the 3rd or 4th best defensive efficiency rating in the series. Sure, his defense has lapses over the course of an overlong regular season on a team that knows it's going to the Finals. In the Playoffs over the past 3 years, he has consistently clearly outplayed a bunch of point guards whom people claim are better than he is, with the one exception of this year's Finals, and he was still stellar in that. Plus, clutch is who Kyrie is.

All of that said, I think Kyrie would be wiser to play with LeBron as long as he can. He can create more of a legacy as LeBron's Robin than he can as Batman on a team that's not a true contender.

[Duke79UNLV77]

Umm, YES Harden is a better offensive player than Irving. Despite being the focal point of every defense he faces (Irving is a distant second on his team in terms of facing defensive focus), and despite taking on a higher volume of shots, Harden was a more efficient scorer than Irving. And Harden is a better passer. Harden is also a bad on-ball defender, but is a FAR better rebounder. And all of this was true before D'Antoni arrived in Houston this past year.

Irving is not in Harden's category. And again, that is fine. Irving is still REALLY good. Just not quite THAT good.

Harden shot 44% from 2, 34.7% from 3, and averaged 5.7 turnovers per game. Kyrie shot 47.3%, 40.1% from 3, and averaged 2.5 turnovers. Harden's assists would take a big hit if he had LeBron on his team. Harden has the huge edge in free throws, but to me he gets a ridiculous number of favorable calls. I like Harden, but I don't really like watching him play that much because of how his flailing constantly gets rewarded, like a much, much higher level guard version of Hansblabla in college.

Plus, Harden's efficiency goes down significantly in the postseason, while Kyrie's goes up. Given the length and significance of the NBA season and postseason, postseason numbers should weigh more heavily in comparing players.

[Wander]

I still have to think you can't make the Irving/Harden comparison.

A Duke message board is probably the only place on the internet where you wouldn't find near unanimous agreement that Harden is better than Irving. I mean, Harden would probably have won MVP last year if we lived in a society that used a Base 8 number system.

The thing that's missing to me in the discussion of "he's trying to get ahead of Lebron leaving next year" is.... just the fact that that's next year, not this year. That one year is not trivial. It's Kyrie's best chance to get another ring, especially if the Warriors have an injury or something. Those chances are rare.

[sagegrouse]

All of that said, I think Kyrie would be wiser to play with LeBron as long as he can. He can create more of a legacy as LeBron's Robin than he can as Batman on a team that's not a true contender.

I agree with your first two paragraphs. "Kyrie would be wiser" advice falls a little flat with me. Kyrie is a global basketball star, who has legendary offensive moves. He has all the money he needs, and he has a championship. Something is wrong for him in Cleveland -- maybe the future, maybe the past -- and he sincerely wants to be elsewhere. Whether it's new challenges or new teammates -- he's earned the right to decide his future.

[CDu]

I agree with your first two paragraphs. "Kyrie would be wiser" advice falls a little flat with me. Kyrie is a global basketball star, who has legendary offensive moves. He has all the money he needs, and he has a championship. Something is wrong for him in Cleveland -- maybe the future, maybe the past -- and he sincerely wants to be elsewhere. Whether it's new challenges or new teammates -- he's earned the right to decide his future.

Totally agree. While I think it is a bad career move for him, it is his choice to make. Well, technically, it is the Cavs choice. And if they move him, it likely won't be to a place he will want to go. But voicing his desire to leave is well within his right. Hopefully it works out for him.

[CDu]

Harden shot 44% from 2, 34.7% from 3, and averaged 5.7 turnovers per game. Kyrie shot 47.3%, 40.1% from 3, and averaged 2.5 turnovers. Harden's assists would take a big hit if he had LeBron on his team. Harden has the huge edge in free throws, but to me he gets a ridiculous number of favorable calls. I like Harden, but I don't really like watching him play that much because of how his flailing constantly gets rewarded, like a much, much higher level guard version of Hansblabla in college.

Plus, Harden's efficiency goes down significantly in the postseason, while Kyrie's goes up. Given the length and significance of the NBA season and postseason, postseason numbers should weigh more heavily in comparing players.

Harden's ability to draw fouls is a huge part of what makes him more valuable. Also, he shoots better than Irving on 2s, and takes a higher % of 3s. The two had virtually identical eFG% as a result, but Harden had the better TS%. Harden also averaged nearly double the assists. And he did all of this with much worse teammates than Irving (making it more difficult for him to score efficiently AND more difficult to get assists).

Harden was unequivocally the better offensive player.

No disagreement from me that Irving is more fun to watch. But Harden is better.

[SilkyJ]

I would put more stock in NBA performance last year than a semi-tryout for essentially an All-Star team in which the decisionmaker was his former coach. And in terms of NBA performance, yeah, all of those guys were better.

I wouldn't. The Cavs mailed it in last year and were .500 after the all-star break. They weren't even the 1 seed in the east despite being leaps and bounds better than everyone else.

They were coasting until the playoffs, and really until the finals when Kyrie averaged 30ppg and looked like the best scoring guard in the world. I thought he looked better than Steph in the finals.

You can prefer Wall of course, but for me the Team USA try-out is the only true head to heads comparison. I place a ton of emphasis on it, especially at the PG position. John Wall can't even make the team, but you think he's "easily ahead" of Irving? You're welcome to prefer the guy who lost the position battle, shoots 32% from 3, and has never won anything. I'll take the guy who won the position battle, is a way better shooter, averaged 30ppg in the finals, and was America's PG in the last olympics (I also own Kyrie's Team USA jersey, which contributes heavily to my personal agenda & bias :cool:)

To suggest that someone like Wall is "easily" ahead of Irving as if its some indisputable fact is nuts. Its easily disputable and lots of people agree with me: Irving started over Wall in most recent All-Star game



And even if you took those guys away (which as I said I wouldn't), I still count easily more than 10.

I could easily poke another 10 holes in your list

- Greek Freak and Towns have made 1 all-star team combined. Kyrie has 4
- Jimmy Butler isn't indisputably better than kyrie. Kyrie is a much better scorer.
- Deandre Jordan rebounds and dunks, but is not well rounded and is a liability on the FT line
- Blake Griffin used to be a top 5 player, but his legs don't work, he's lost some bounce, and hasn't made an all-start team in 2 years
- Paul Millsap! Another guy who couldn't make Team USA
- Love Marc Gasol, but don't think he's better


Fans pick All-Star starters.

Also, the talent distribution is not equal between conferences. Especially at PG. Irving, IS a top-12 guy and top 2-3 PG in the East. He is at best a borderline top 12 if in the West, and is at best the 4th best PG over there.

And again, I am not saying he isn't a top-25 guy. Just that he isn't nearly a top-10 player.

Vick makes the case pretty well: Irving has REALLY benefited from having LeBron take defensive attention off Irving. When LeBron isn't on the floor but Irving is, the Cavs are a train wreck.

And that is ok. Irving is just 25 and can get better. But let's not overstate his greatness at the moment.

Well, first you said "I would have trouble putting Irving in the top-20." Now he's definitely top-25. I think the issue is that you're being so definitive that X is clearly better than Y and I don't think its all that clear. Top of the list is Lebron, Durant, Curry...then it gets murky. How do compare Deandre Jordan vs Kyrie vs Butler vs Cousins vs Draymond? Who should have won the MVP this year? Was Russ clearly ahead of Harden? Its all shades of gray in there.

For me, I think he's close to top 10, definitely top 15 b/c I think he's the best scoring guard in all of basketball. I think he's on par with Steph and was better than him in the finals. He's not a good 3 point shooter--he's an ELITE 3 point shooter and has been ever since he joined the league, which is rare. He's even won the 3 point contest. He is one of the best finishers at the rim in all of basketball with both hands. To watch him do what he did against Klay in the finals was incredible. Given his 3 point shooting I think he's even better than Harden or Westbrook as a scorer--Harden is a mediocre 35% 3 pt shooter and Russ is abysmal from 3, and neither guy was won squat. Harden is already known as a playoff choker and kyrie gets better on the big stage.

So yea, I think the best scoring guard in bball should probably be in the top 10. Some folks prefer Russ, some thought Harden should be MVP...and I think Kyrie is a better scorer than both of them. Different strokes for different folks, but I don't think its clear cut who goes where.

[CDu]

I wouldn't. The Cavs mailed it in last year and were .500 after the all-star break. They weren't even the 1 seed in the east despite being leaps and bounds better than everyone else.

They were coasting until the playoffs, and really until the finals when Kyrie averaged 30ppg and looked like the best scoring guard in the world. I thought he looked better than Steph in the finals.

You can prefer Wall of course, but for me the Team USA try-out is the only true head to heads comparison. I place a ton of emphasis on it, especially at the PG position. John Wall can't even make the team, but you think he's "easily ahead" of Irving? You're welcome to prefer the guy who lost the position battle, shoots 32% from 3, and has never won anything. I'll take the guy who won the position battle, is a way better shooter, averaged 30ppg in the finals, and was America's PG in the last olympics

To suggest that Wall is "easily" ahead of Irving as if its some indisputable fact is nuts. Its easily disputable and lots of people agree with me: Irving started over Wall in most recent All-Star game



I could easily poke another 10 holes in your list

- Greek Freak and Towns have made 1 all-star team combined. Kyrie has 4
- Jimmy Butler isn't indisputably better than kyrie. Kyrie is a much better scorer.
- Deandre Jordan rebounds and dunks, but is not well rounded and is a liability on the FT line
- Blake Griffin used to be a top 5 player, but his legs don't work, he's lost some bounce, and hasn't made an all-start team in 2 years
- Paul Millsap! Another guy who couldn't make Team USA
- Love Marc Gasol, but don't think he's better



Well, first you said "I would have trouble putting Irving in the top-20." Now he's definitely top-25. I think the issue is that you're being so definitive that X is clearly better than Y and I don't think its all that clear. Top of the list is Lebron, Durant, Curry...then it gets murky. How do compare Deandre Jordan vs Kyrie vs Butler vs Cousins vs Draymond? Who should have won the MVP this year? Was Russ clearly ahead of Harden? Its all shades of gray in there.

For me, I think he's close to top 10, definitely top 15 b/c I think he's the best scoring guard in all of basketball. I think he's on par with Steph and was better than him in the finals. He's not a good 3 point shooter--he's an ELITE 3 point shooter and has been ever since he joined the league, which is rare. He's even won the 3 point contest. He is one of the best finishers at the rim in all of basketball with both hands. To watch him do what he did against Klay in the finals was incredible. Given his 3 point shooting I think he's even better than Harden or Westbrook as a scorer--Harden is a mediocre 35% 3 pt shooter and Russ is abysmal from 3, and neither guy was won squat. Harden is already known as a playoff choker and kyrie gets better on the big stage.

So yea, I think the best scoring guard in bball should probably be in the top 10. Some folks prefer Russ, some thought Harden should be MVP...and I think Kyrie is a better scorer than both of them. Different strokes for different folks, but I don't think its clear cut who goes where.

There are just so many things wrong in this post that it isn't worth discussing further. Suffice to say that I disagree with almost everything you have said in this post and on this topic.

I think you are letting your Duke fandom outway your sense here. Either that or you don't follow the NBA closely enough (which is definitely possible since you thought I was talking about Pau Gasol earlier, when he has been the second-best Gasol in the league for a few years now). Outside of a Duke message board and a Cavs message board and Irving's family, nobody else is suggesting he is a top-10 player or the top scoring guard in the league.

[Duke79UNLV77]

Harden's ability to draw fouls is a huge part of what makes him more valuable. Also, he shoots better than Irving on 2s, and takes a higher % of 3s. The two had virtually identical eFG% as a result, but Harden had the better TS%. Harden also averaged nearly double the assists. And he did all of this with much worse teammates than Irving (making it more difficult for him to score efficiently AND more difficult to get assists).

Harden was unequivocally the better offensive player.

No disagreement from me that Irving is more fun to watch. But Harden is better.

Harden did draw a lot more fouls, but I think a lot of those calls were ridiculous, like the sweep-through move that can make games almost unwatchable. It's like saying Hansblabla was the best power forward ever in the ACC because he drew so many fouls. He shouldn't have gotten to the line nearly as much as he did, and neither should Harden.

Harden averaged nearly double the assists as Kyrie, but well over twice the turnovers, which is a too overlooked number for star players in the NBA. Do you really think Harden's assist numbers wouldn't go down if he were playing with LeBron? He wouldn't be handling the ball nearly as much. Kyrie had a much better teammate, not teammates, than Harden. After the top 3, the Cavs would be a high lottery team. After the top 2, they'd be a lottery team.

Again, look at their numbers in the playoffs over the past 3 years? Kyrie has been much, much better than Harden when it counts, and they've played enough games over that time for it to be statistically significant and not just a fluke.

[CDu]

Harden did draw a lot more fouls, but I think a lot of those calls were ridiculous, like the sweep-through move that can make games almost unwatchable. It's like saying Hansblabla was the best power forward ever in the ACC because he drew so many fouls. He shouldn't have gotten to the line nearly as much as he did, and neither should Harden.

Harden averaged nearly double the assists as Kyrie, but well over twice the turnovers, which is a too overlooked number for star players in the NBA. Do you really think Harden's assist numbers wouldn't go down if he were playing with LeBron? He wouldn't be handling the ball nearly as much. Kyrie had a much better teammate, not teammates, than Harden. After the top 3, the Cavs would be a high lottery team. After the top 2, they'd be a lottery team.

Again, look at their numbers in the playoffs over the past 3 years? Kyrie has been much, much better than Harden when it counts, and they've played enough games over that time for it to be statistically significant and not just a fluke.

Irving had two teammates MUCH better than anyone else on the Rockets. Aside from Harden, the Rockets would be a high lottery team. Irving was in a MUCH easier situation.

And yes, if LeBron played with Harden, Harden's assists would go down. You know what else would happen? His turnovers would ALSO go down. And his scoring efficiency would go up because LeBron would get him plenty of wide open looks like he does for Irving.

[JNort]

There are just so many things wrong in this post that it isn't worth discussing further. Suffice to say that I disagree with almost everything you have said in this post and on this topic.

I think you are letting your Duke fandom outway your sense here. Either that or you don't follow the NBA closely enough (which is definitely possible since you thought I was talking about Pau Gasol earlier, when he has been the second-best Gasol in the league for a few years now). Outside of a Duke message board and a Cavs message board and Irving's family, nobody else is suggesting he is a top-10 player or the top scoring guard in the league.

Agreed. Kyrie is great but I'd probably put him around 15. Just a guess because I don't have a list in front of me but I doubt he would be better than 12 or worse than 18.


I would love to see Kyrie play sg. It's definitely more his mentality and it's not like he would have bad size since most teams are playing smaller and faster. Besides sg is so weak in the man today that Kyrie playing the 2 would probably make him the best sg in the league or at least top 3.

[Duke79UNLV77]

Irving had two teammates MUCH better than anyone else on the Rockets. Aside from Harden, the Rockets would be a high lottery team. Irving was in a MUCH easier situation.

And yes, if LeBron played with Harden, Harden's assists would go down. You know what else would happen? His turnovers would ALSO go down. And his scoring efficiency would go up because LeBron would get him plenty of wide open looks like he does for Irving.

If you think Kyrie was living off wide open looks from LeBron, you weren't watching the same games I did. That would be everyone else on the team other than LeBron and Kyrie because that's how defenses play the Cavs.

2016 postseason: Kyrie 47.5% 2, 44.0%3, 2.3 turnovers, 1 epic dagger. Harden: 41.0% 2, 31.0% 3, 5.2 turnovers, team flop.
2017 postseason: Kyrie 46.8% 2, 37.3% 3, 2.7 turnovers, took over a number of games. Harden: 41.3% 2, 27.8% 3, 5.4 turnovers. Awful in the Rockets' last losses.

I'm not saying Harden is bad. He's a fantastic player, though his numbers are inflated by officiating. Just that Kyrie is in the same elite class.

I hope that he doesn't do something like go to the Knicks, though, because I think only LeBron, and possibly Durant, could make the Knicks serious players next year.

[darthur]

They were coasting until the playoffs, and really until the finals when Kyrie averaged 30ppg and looked like the best scoring guard in the world. I thought he looked better than Steph in the finals.

I'm a Kyrie fan, but I'm also a Steph fan, and I really, really don't agree with the last part.

It's true that Kyrie steps it up in the finals, and in 2016, he really did outplay Steph. In 2017, no way IMO. Kyrie scored more points but not many more, especially per minute, and he did it much less efficiently (look at efg% and ts%). He also was way worse on assists and rebounding. But these numbers just don't do Steph's impact justice. With the possible exception of LeBron in playoff mode, Steph is the single best guy in the NBA right now at making his teammates better just because of his gravity. Remember those wide open dunks from KD early in the series because the Cavs elected to defend Curry off-ball at the 3 point line instead of KD going straight to the rim? Even though they still have KD out there too, the Cavs warp their entire defense around Steph in a way that GS does not do for Kyrie.

Kyrie's game is incredibly impressive to watch, certainly more so than Steph's most of the time, but Steph is better than he looks and Kyrie is not quite as good as he looks. I personally agree with cdu that Kyrie has not shown himself to be top-15 yet, and I also think someone like Jimmy Butler is clearly above Kyrie. Hopefully he'll get the trade though and we can really see the Kyrie show in action next year. He would have been an absolute legend if he played 10-20 years ago in the iso era.

[CDu]

Agreed. Kyrie is great but I'd probably put him around 15. Just a guess because I don't have a list in front of me but I doubt he would be better than 12 or worse than 18.

I would say 20-25 personally, but wouldn't be overly offended with someone saying 15-25. The one thing I do agree with Silky on is that it gets murkier the further you get from the top. I just think there is a distinct second-tier above Irving after the top 5-6. Guys who are similar or close to Irving in offensive value but MUCH better defensively, or just simply better value offensively.


I would love to see Kyrie play sg. It's definitely more his mentality and it's not like he would have bad size since most teams are playing smaller and faster. Besides sg is so weak in the man today that Kyrie playing the 2 would probably make him the best sg in the league or at least top 3.

Well, he basically has been playing SG the last 2 years in Cleveland. LeBron runs that offense.

The problem is that if you put him at SG with another PG-sized player it becomes that much harder to hide Irving defensively. The Cavs could play two bigger, defensive-minded wings, LeBron, and Thompson, and make it very hard to iso Irving. But add another smaller player and it is that much easier to get Irving on a bigger guy who can punish him on the blocks.

If you can pair him with a bigger guy who can play PG, like LeBron (or Butler for example), he can fluorish as a scorer and you don't cause as much trouble defensively). The problem is just that there are not enough two-way wings who can also play PG.

And again, this problem is still a marginal problem. Irving is still REALLY good. Just not quite as good as some here seem to think.

[vick]

Again, look at their numbers in the playoffs over the past 3 years? Kyrie has been much, much better than Harden when it counts, and they've played enough games over that time for it to be statistically significant and not just a fluke.

No (https://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/psl_finder.cgi?request=1&match=combined&type=totals&per_minute_base=36&per_poss_base=100&season_start=1&season_end=-1&lg_id=NBA&age_min=0&age_max=99&is_playoffs=Y&height_min=0&height_max=99&year_min=2015&year_max=2017&birth_country_is=Y&as_comp=gt&as_val=0&pos_is_g=Y&pos_is_gf=Y&pos_is_f=Y&pos_is_fg=Y&pos_is_fc=Y&pos_is_c=Y&pos_is_cf=Y&c1stat=mp&c1comp=gt&c1val=500&order_by=bpm). Even in the playoffs, Harden has scored more (and more efficiently), rebounded more, and assisted more than Kyrie. At best they have been about equal in the playoffs (Harden's stats are pretty clearly better, though team performance worse).

[CDu]

No (https://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/psl_finder.cgi?request=1&match=combined&type=totals&per_minute_base=36&per_poss_base=100&season_start=1&season_end=-1&lg_id=NBA&age_min=0&age_max=99&is_playoffs=Y&height_min=0&height_max=99&year_min=2015&year_max=2017&birth_country_is=Y&as_comp=gt&as_val=0&pos_is_g=Y&pos_is_gf=Y&pos_is_f=Y&pos_is_fg=Y&pos_is_fc=Y&pos_is_c=Y&pos_is_cf=Y&c1stat=mp&c1comp=gt&c1val=500&order_by=bpm). Even in the playoffs, Harden has scored more (and more efficiently), rebounded more, and assisted more than Kyrie. At best they have been about equal in the playoffs (Harden's stats are pretty clearly better, though team performance worse).

Yep, as one would expect with (1) having much worse teammates and (2) playing in a much tougher conference.

[CDu]

No (https://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/psl_finder.cgi?request=1&match=combined&type=totals&per_minute_base=36&per_poss_base=100&season_start=1&season_end=-1&lg_id=NBA&age_min=0&age_max=99&is_playoffs=Y&height_min=0&height_max=99&year_min=2015&year_max=2017&birth_country_is=Y&as_comp=gt&as_val=0&pos_is_g=Y&pos_is_gf=Y&pos_is_f=Y&pos_is_fg=Y&pos_is_fc=Y&pos_is_c=Y&pos_is_cf=Y&c1stat=mp&c1comp=gt&c1val=500&order_by=bpm). Even in the playoffs, Harden has scored more (and more efficiently), rebounded more, and assisted more than Kyrie. At best they have been about equal in the playoffs (Harden's stats are pretty clearly better, though team performance worse).

If you sort that list by OBPM (i.e., exclude defense), Irving moves up to 8th. Much better, but still comfortably behind Harden (6th, but a full 2 pts clear of 7th and 8th). But with defense he falls to 18th.

And of course that excludes some really good players like Anthony Davis, Towns, and Cousins - good players stuck on bad teams.

[darthur]

Btw, espn's NBARank is probably the most comprehensive attempt at ranking contemporary players:

http://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/page/nbarankindex/counting-nba-top-200

As of a year ago, the ranking was:

1) LeBron
2) Steph
3) KD
4) Kawhi
5) Westbrook
6) Davis
7) Chris Paul
8) Harden
9) Paul George
10) Lillard
11) Towns
12) Griffin
13) Cousins
14) Draymond
15) Kyrie
16) Klay
17) John Wall
18) Lowry
19) Greek freek
20) Andre Drummond

Butler was 21 so I guess they disagreed with me there :).

If they do it this year, KD will probably jump Steph, Harden will definitely go up, Giannis will go up, Drummond will go down. Not sure where Kyrie will land. He was riding an incredible playoff performance last year but his season overall was better this year.

[SilkyJ]

There are just so many things wrong in this post that it isn't worth discussing further. Suffice to say that I disagree with almost everything you have said in this post and on this topic.

I think you are letting your Duke fandom outway your sense here. Either that or you don't follow the NBA closely enough (which is definitely possible since you thought I was talking about Pau Gasol earlier, when he has been the second-best Gasol in the league for a few years now). Outside of a Duke message board and a Cavs message board and Irving's family, nobody else is suggesting he is a top-10 player or the top scoring guard in the league.

Your definitiveness is bordering on obnoxious, isn't warranted, and is inaccurate. I can produce countless articles with people suggesting just that.

In fact, here's a 2015 article from Bill Simmons Grantland/Ringer that discuss Kyrie as a top 10 player (https://theringer.com/cleveland-cavaliers-kyrie-irving-olympics-how-to-rate-7f3849043347)! These are neither Duke nor Cleveland homer articles.

Some $$$ quotes:


I asked Kobe if he had any “new” favorite players. You know how great chefs always identify the other up-and-coming great chefs? Kobe fancies himself as that guy for the NBA alpha dog/badass/overcompetitive mf’er corner. Knows it when he sees it. Even brags about being able to see it. He sniffed it out early with Westbrook (his favorite current star) in 2012 and — to my surprise — he’s sniffing it with Kyrie now and said as much. He loves Kyrie. So that was a game changer for me. When Chef Kobe blessed Chef Kyrie, I knew it was time to wipe my Kyrie Opinion Hard Drive and start over.

You know who loved hearing Kobe praise Kyrie? Jalen. We had been arguing about Kyrie’s potential for months.

At the same time, Jalen has raved about Kyrie’s ceiling for three years and learned to discount MY unenthusiastic opinion; Jalen knew that I wasn’t totally seeing what he saw. I wanted Kyrie to be something that he could never be: basically, late-’80s Isiah or Right Now Chris Paul, the point guard who spends 42 minutes making everyone better before taking over in the final six minutes. Jalen maintained that Kyrie wasn’t that guy. I maintained that, until anyone proved they could win with him, I was out on him. We were in no-man’s-land.

So there's Jalen Rose and Simmons, two of the better NBA analysts that I respect, having this same debate. Kobe as well. Don't tell me its only Duke and Cleveland homers defending Kyrie--Jalen and Kobe are neither.

In addition to rating him #10 most untradeable that year, they discuss how its difficult to rank him (https://theringer.com/cleveland-cavaliers-kyrie-irving-olympics-how-to-rate-7f3849043347) and rate him and they basically lay out the arguments for both sides: why he arguably is a top 10 player and why he arguably isn't. The point is that people all over are having this debate and to suggest that Duke and Cleveland fans are the only ones defending Kyrie is ridiculous...and wrong.

I'll admit to being over-indexed on Bill Simmons, but if you listen to his podcast he said a) he thought kyrie looked better than steph in the finals and b) he thinks Kyrie is the best scoring guard (his words may have been "best scoring PG" or "best scoring guard," but it was superlative either way) in the league.

We can agree to disagree, but there are plenty of folks on both sides of this table.

[darthur]

I'll admit to being over-indexed on Bill Simmons, but if you listen to his podcast he said a) he thought kyrie looked better than steph in the finals and b) he thinks Kyrie is the best scoring guard (his words may have been "best scoring PG" or "best scoring guard," but it was superlative either way) in the league.

Just my 2c but I think Bill Simmons is more entertaining than correct in most of what he says. :)

[SilkyJ]

Just my 2c but I think Bill Simmons is more entertaining than correct in most of what he says. :)

Good news for me since Jalen was the one who made the argument for Kyrie originally. If you look at the article and quotes, Simmons originally ranked him 25th, around where CDu would, but he has since become a convert.

I'll keep proselytizing :)

[MartyClark]

Getting away from the immediate argument, I had posted my disappointment with Kyrie demanding a trade and several people politely disagreed.

It's interesting what a difference one word can make. Did Kyrie "demand" a trade? I don't know and if he did, I'm not that enthused about the demand. Did he "request" a trade? I don't know but, if so, that seems reasonable.

I've probably chased a bunny trail here but words are so important, in politics and in my business world, I'm just a bit interested in what Kyrie or his agent really said.

[CDu]

Your definitiveness is bordering on obnoxious, isn't warranted, and is inaccurate. I can produce countless articles with people suggesting just that.

In fact, here's a 2015 article from Bill Simmons Grantland/Ringer that discuss Kyrie as a top 10 player (https://theringer.com/cleveland-cavaliers-kyrie-irving-olympics-how-to-rate-7f3849043347)! These are neither Duke nor Cleveland homer articles.

Some $$$ quotes:





So there's Jalen Rose and Simmons, two of the better NBA analysts that I respect, having this same debate. Kobe as well. Don't tell me its only Duke and Cleveland homers defending Kyrie--Jalen and Kobe are neither.

In addition to rating him #10 most untradeable that year, they discuss how its difficult to rank him (https://theringer.com/cleveland-cavaliers-kyrie-irving-olympics-how-to-rate-7f3849043347) and rate him and they basically lay out the arguments for both sides: why he arguably is a top 10 player and why he arguably isn't. The point is that people all over are having this debate and to suggest that Duke and Cleveland fans are the only ones defending Kyrie is ridiculous...and wrong.

I'll admit to being over-indexed on Bill Simmons, but if you listen to his podcast he said a) he thought kyrie looked better than steph in the finals and b) he thinks Kyrie is the best scoring guard (his words may have been "best scoring PG" or "best scoring guard," but it was superlative either way) in the league.

We can agree to disagree, but there are plenty of folks on both sides of this table.

Bill Simmons is not a good bball analyst. He is no more of a bball analyst than you or me. What he is is a talented writer and good self-promoter. And Rose is no expert, just a guy with a good personality and strong opinions. And Kobe was asked who he enjoyed watching, not who he thought was best. A very different discussion. Irving would make my short list of most enjoyable to watch.

Also, the article that you referenced from the Ringer (did you send the wrong link first? both links go to the same article) points out the Cavs actually played better in the 2015-16 season without Irving on the floor. And they came to the conclusion that Irving was a top-10 player... for 2 games in a 7-game series.

And, honestly, that feels about right. When he is hitting shots, Irving can absolutely be a top-10 player. Mainly because he is such a good dribbler. But the problem is that Irving's value is linked so entirely to making shots. And that is because he gives you very little else offensively, and he actively (or should I say passively?) hurts you defensively. And sure enough, with a .321 3pt % in 2016, the Cavs played better with Irving off the floor. And for the first four games of that series, he stunk. But he finished strong in the last three games.

At peak Irving? Yeah, he might be the best one-on-one scoring guard in the league. But he fluctuates a lot. And because he doesn't give you anything above average but his ability to score, when he is struggling with his shot he is a hindrance. That is why I am so emphatic about this. On average, he just isn't a top-10 player. Too one-dimensional (albeit a really nice dimension), and not consistent rnough at that one dimension.

In 14 career playoff games against the Warriors, Irving has shot 146/310 (47.1%), 376 points (26.9 per), 60 assists (4.3 per), 38 turnovers (2.7 per). Those scoring numbers look pretty good, right?

Well, the problem is that the value pretty much all came in 5 games, in which he averaged 36.6 ppg while shooting 55.6% from the field. In those games, we see peak-value Kyrie, arguably the best scorer in the NBA. The other 9 games? He barely averaged 1 point per shot (that is mediocre) in averaging just over 22 ppg. So he gave the Cavs a somewhat, high-volume inefficient scorer, nothing else offensively, and a big negative defensively. So on average we see a fairly efficient scorer who doesn't give you much else, and a really bad defender.

And that is Irving in a nutshell: when he is on (and that is about once every three games), he can be absolutely unstoppable as a scorer. But when he isn't on (and that tends to be at more over half the time), he is just a mediocre scorer (not awful, just not very efficient) who doesn't provide value anywhere else. And he is a huge detriment defensively, as noted in that Ringer article.

Fun to watch? Absolutely. Capable of unparalleled brilliance? Certainly. But his inconsistency as a scorer combined with not providing other value on offense and being a big negative defensively makes him not a top-10 player.

Could he get there? Sure. If he improves defensively (and this seems to be more about focus/effort rather than physical ability) he will be there. If he finds a way to improve his value offensively in games where he isn't "on", either as a passer or in other ways, he would bump up. Or if he became more consistent as a scorer. But when all your value is as a scorer and you don't do it consistently, it makes it really hard to be among the top-10.

[SilkyJ]

Bill Simmons is not a good bball analyst. He is no more of a bball analyst than you or me. What he is is a talented writer and good self-promoter. And Rose is no expert, just a guy with a good personality and strong opinions. And Kobe was asked who he enjoyed watching, not who he thought was best. A very different discussion. Irving would make my short list of most enjoyable to watch.


Ha, whatever. You can like who you want to like, but clearly prominent NBA analysts are having this discussion, not just Duke and Cleveland homers as you suggested...which was clearly the point of my post.

If I mislinked, here are the articles. #1 (http://grantland.com/the-triangle/nba-trade-value-sneak-peek-no-10-kyrie-irving/#fn-2) & #2 (https://theringer.com/cleveland-cavaliers-kyrie-irving-olympics-how-to-rate-7f3849043347)

(you're extremely definitive again with "Simmons is not good" and "Rose is no expert." Lots of people would disagree with those statements. Jalen is ESPN's lead NBA analyst, which would seem to make him an expert...even if I hated him in the Fab5 documentary.)

[Duke79UNLV77]

No (https://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/psl_finder.cgi?request=1&match=combined&type=totals&per_minute_base=36&per_poss_base=100&season_start=1&season_end=-1&lg_id=NBA&age_min=0&age_max=99&is_playoffs=Y&height_min=0&height_max=99&year_min=2015&year_max=2017&birth_country_is=Y&as_comp=gt&as_val=0&pos_is_g=Y&pos_is_gf=Y&pos_is_f=Y&pos_is_fg=Y&pos_is_fc=Y&pos_is_c=Y&pos_is_cf=Y&c1stat=mp&c1comp=gt&c1val=500&order_by=bpm). Even in the playoffs, Harden has scored more (and more efficiently), rebounded more, and assisted more than Kyrie. At best they have been about equal in the playoffs (Harden's stats are pretty clearly better, though team performance worse).

Only with some creative new math could Harden's numbers be considered "pretty clearly better," or for that matter remotely close, to Kyrie's over the last 2 playoffs:

2016 postseason: Kyrie 47.5% 2, 44.0%3, 2.3 turnovers, 1 epic dagger. Harden: 41.0% 2, 31.0% 3, 5.2 turnovers, team flops.
2017 postseason: Kyrie 46.8% 2, 37.3% 3, 2.7 turnovers, took over a number of games. Harden: 41.3% 2, 27.8% 3, 5.4 turnovers. Awful in the Rockets' last loss.

[CDu]

Ha, whatever. You can like who you want to like, but clearly prominent NBA analysts are having this discussion, not just Duke and Cleveland homers as you suggested...which was clearly the point of my post.

If I mislinked, here are the articles. #1 (http://grantland.com/the-triangle/nba-trade-value-sneak-peek-no-10-kyrie-irving/#fn-2) & #2 (https://theringer.com/cleveland-cavaliers-kyrie-irving-olympics-how-to-rate-7f3849043347)

(you're extremely definitive again with "Simmons is not good" and "Rose is no expert." Lots of people would disagree with those statements. Jalen is ESPN's lead NBA analyst, which would seem to make him an expert...even if I hated him in the Fab5 documentary.)

I mean, I am sorry if my strong opinions offend. But Simmons is definitely just a fan with a platform. Want evidence? When the Celtics were old and mediocre, they traded the aging Pierce (heading to 36) and Garnett (going on 37) to the Nets for a bazillion picks. It was an amazing coup at the time for a franchise headed towards Atlanta Hawks territory (sorry Jason). Simmons was furious about the trade. The guy is just a fan. He watches a lot of basketball, but he is no more an expert than anyone else who watches a lot of basketball. I refuse to call him any more an expert than plenty of folks on this board just because he is a better writer than us.

But, you're right. Not literally only Duke and Cavs fans are having the discussion. Kudos. Still doesn't put him in the top 10.

[vick]

Only with some creative new math could Harden's numbers be considered "pretty clearly better," or for that matter remotely close, to Kyrie's over the last 2 playoffs:

2016 postseason: Kyrie 47.5% 2, 44.0%3, 2.3 turnovers, 1 epic dagger. Harden: 41.0% 2, 31.0% 3, 5.2 turnovers, team flops.
2017 postseason: Kyrie 46.8% 2, 37.3% 3, 2.7 turnovers, took over a number of games. Harden: 41.3% 2, 27.8% 3, 5.4 turnovers. Awful in the Rockets' last loss.

No. Harden's ability to get to the line is an incredibly valuable skill which you've just ignored. That's why his true shooting is (slightly) above (https://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/psl_finder.cgi?request=1&match=combined&type=totals&per_minute_base=36&per_poss_base=100&season_start=1&season_end=-1&lg_id=NBA&age_min=0&age_max=99&is_playoffs=Y&height_min=0&height_max=99&year_min=2016&year_max=2017&birth_country_is=Y&as_comp=gt&as_val=0&pos_is_g=Y&pos_is_gf=Y&pos_is_f=Y&pos_is_fg=Y&pos_is_fc=Y&pos_is_c=Y&pos_is_cf=Y&c1stat=mp&c1comp=gt&c1val=500&order_by=ts_pct) Kyrie's over the last two playoffs, and despite the fact that he carries a higher burden (https://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/psl_finder.cgi?request=1&match=combined&type=totals&per_minute_base=36&per_poss_base=100&season_start=1&season_end=-1&lg_id=NBA&age_min=0&age_max=99&is_playoffs=Y&height_min=0&height_max=99&year_min=2016&year_max=2017&birth_country_is=Y&as_comp=gt&as_val=0&pos_is_g=Y&pos_is_gf=Y&pos_is_f=Y&pos_is_fg=Y&pos_is_fc=Y&pos_is_c=Y&pos_is_cf=Y&c1stat=mp&c1comp=gt&c1val=500&order_by=usg_pct). Nothing "creative" about it; these are pretty basic stats.

[darthur]

Only with some creative new math could Harden's numbers be considered "pretty clearly better," or for that matter remotely close, to Kyrie's over the last 2 playoffs:

2016 postseason: Kyrie 47.5% 2, 44.0%3, 2.3 turnovers, 1 epic dagger. Harden: 41.0% 2, 31.0% 3, 5.2 turnovers, team flops.
2017 postseason: Kyrie 46.8% 2, 37.3% 3, 2.7 turnovers, took over a number of games. Harden: 41.3% 2, 27.8% 3, 5.4 turnovers. Awful in the Rockets' last loss.

I don't have a strong opinion about who played better in the playoffs over the last few seasons, but I think your stats are pretty misleading.

If you are going to emphasize efficiency via shooting percentages, you should IMO list only one stat: TS%. This is what matters in games and everything else is an approximation. Harden's value is heavily based on his ability to draw fouls and then make free throws, but you excluded this completely from your stats. By TS%, Harden was better in '15 and '17 but worse in '16. It also seems dubious to highlight turnovers but ignore assists when Harden has a PG role and Irving has a SG role. Irving is still better on A/TO though.

[SilkyJ]

I mean, I am sorry if my strong opinions offend.

They don't offend. When you state a highly disputable opinion as fact, like ESPN's lead NBA analyst "is no expert," or say "no one thinks kyrie is a top 10 player," which just isn't true, it seems warranted to call it out.



But Simmons is definitely just a fan with a platform. Want evidence? When the Celtics were old and mediocre, they traded the aging Pierce (heading to 36) and Garnett (going on 37) to the Nets for a bazillion picks. It was an amazing coup at the time for a franchise headed towards Atlanta Hawks territory (sorry Jason). Simmons was furious about the trade. The guy is just a fan. He watches a lot of basketball, but he is no more an expert than anyone else who watches a lot of basketball. I refuse to call him any more an expert than plenty of folks on this board just because he is a better writer than us.

But, you're right. Not literally only Duke and Cavs fans are having the discussion. Kudos. Still doesn't put him in the top 10.

Your evidence is that he didn't like a trade so he's not an expert? Case closed!

Who says you can't be a fan and still be an expert? That's what I tell myself when I look in the mirror.

[Duke79UNLV77]

No. Harden's ability to get to the line is an incredibly valuable skill which you've just ignored. That's why his true shooting is (slightly) above (https://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/psl_finder.cgi?request=1&match=combined&type=totals&per_minute_base=36&per_poss_base=100&season_start=1&season_end=-1&lg_id=NBA&age_min=0&age_max=99&is_playoffs=Y&height_min=0&height_max=99&year_min=2016&year_max=2017&birth_country_is=Y&as_comp=gt&as_val=0&pos_is_g=Y&pos_is_gf=Y&pos_is_f=Y&pos_is_fg=Y&pos_is_fc=Y&pos_is_c=Y&pos_is_cf=Y&c1stat=mp&c1comp=gt&c1val=500&order_by=ts_pct) Kyrie's over the last two playoffs, and despite the fact that he carries a higher burden (https://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/psl_finder.cgi?request=1&match=combined&type=totals&per_minute_base=36&per_poss_base=100&season_start=1&season_end=-1&lg_id=NBA&age_min=0&age_max=99&is_playoffs=Y&height_min=0&height_max=99&year_min=2016&year_max=2017&birth_country_is=Y&as_comp=gt&as_val=0&pos_is_g=Y&pos_is_gf=Y&pos_is_f=Y&pos_is_fg=Y&pos_is_fc=Y&pos_is_c=Y&pos_is_cf=Y&c1stat=mp&c1comp=gt&c1val=500&order_by=usg_pct). Nothing "creative" about it; these are pretty basic stats.

I discussed Harden's free throw rate at length above. While he's very smart and crafty, I also think he gets a ridiculous number of beneficial calls for flailing, much like Hansblahblah did in college. I also think EFG overly rewards very high volume, very mediocre percentage 3-point shooters, like Harden. I am hoping the new NBA rules on the sweep-through will limit some of the Harden free throws, not because I don't like him personally but because I find it barely watchable and not true to the sport.

[CDu]

They don't offend. When you state a highly disputable opinion as fact, like ESPN's lead NBA analyst "is no expert," or say "no one thinks kyrie is a top 10 player," which just isn't true, it seems warranted to call it out.



Your evidence is that he didn't like a trade so he's not an expert? Case closed!

Who says you can't be a fan and still be an expert? That's what I tell myself when I look in the mirror.

I mean, he isn't an expert. He is a sports columnist who happens to really like basketball and is clever at meshing sports with pop culture references. There are certainly writers who are experts. Zach Lowe for example. But Simmons is not an expert.

Rose isn't really either, though he certainly knows way more than Simmons. ESPN doesn't select on-air folks for their expertise. They choose them for their personalities. Rose knows enough that his personality can play.

Also worth noting that the column you referenced is not even a true player ranking, but a "trade value" ranking. Simmons makes that clear every year. As in, it is a measure of how willing to trade this guy is his team. Sometimes, better players are more tradeable, either due to contract, age, or the team's situation. For reference, he listed Butler at 29, George at 23, and Andrew Wiggins at 22. And that may have made sense at the time. Wiggins definitely wasn't nearly as good as either Butler or George, but he was just one year into his career and on a rebuilding team needing a piece to build around. And he was really cheap.

Irving in 2015 was a perfect #2 to LeBron, and he was a key piece in the Cavs' hopes of a title. And he was/is on a reasonably team-friendly deal. So age, team circumstance, and contract were all positive impacts on Irving's trade value to the Cavs, and thus inflate his ranking.

If Simmons were to write the column today, with Irving requesting a trade, you can be sure that Irving's rank in the article would be well below his true player rank.

But, again, you are absolutely correct that there were more than zero people outside of Duke/Cleveland circles wondering aloud whether Irving was a top-10 player.

[Duke79UNLV77]

But, again, you are absolutely correct that there were more than zero people outside of Duke/Cleveland circles wondering aloud whether Irving was a top-10 player.

http://www.gq.com/story/how-kyrie-irving-is-still-underrated-explained

http://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/19637444/kevin-durant-golden-state-warriors-says-kyrie-irving-better-allen-Iverson

[CDu]

http://www.gq.com/story/how-kyrie-irving-is-still-underrated-explained

http://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/19637444/kevin-durant-golden-state-warriors-says-kyrie-irving-better-allen-Iverson

Like I said, SilkyJ was correct that more than zero people are talking about how good Irving is.

But that first article (by noted bball experts at GQ) kind of makes my point. It says that Irving's ceiling is what makes him underrated. I totally agree that his ceiling is among the absolute best. My point is that he doesn't reach said ceiling often enough to make him a top-10 player. Even in the playoffs. And when he isn't "on", he doesn't bring much else to the table.

He is unbelievably talented, but not quite as good relative to the league as some here think.

But, I have repeated myself enough. I am not going to convince you or Silky, so I will move on.

[sagegrouse]

I mean, I am sorry if my strong opinions offend. But Simmons is definitely just a fan with a platform. Want evidence? When the Celtics were old and mediocre, they traded the aging Pierce (heading to 36) and Garnett (going on 37) to the Nets for a bazillion picks. It was an amazing coup at the time for a franchise headed towards Atlanta Hawks territory (sorry Jason). Simmons was furious about the trade. The guy is just a fan. He watches a lot of basketball, but he is no more an expert than anyone else who watches a lot of basketball. I refuse to call him any more an expert than plenty of folks on this board just because he is a better writer than us.

But, you're right. Not literally only Duke and Cavs fans are having the discussion. Kudos. Still doesn't put him in the top 10.

What I used to say (privately) in government was that there is a difference between "certitude" and "certainty" -- and the Congressman doesn't realize it.

What I would offer is that Kyrie in the post-season the past two years is one of the most amazing offensive players I have ever seen -- ACROSS A FAIRLY WIDE RANGE OF SKILLS AND ABILITIES. Does he fail to show some more traditional point-guard skills -- passing, e.g. -- yep, although his court vision appears to be very, very good. Where does he rank? I dunno -- there are other guards with offensive game that are more powerful and much better defensively. But Kyrie is absolutely brilliant in much of his offensive play -- "unguardable," was the term. OK, so he gets some dings on defense, but he is in the conversation for being one of the best players in the league, IMHO (where the H ran away with the spoon a long time ago), because he can do so many things that no one else can.

I would offer a caveat that I am judging him by his playoff performances, since I don't see as many cavs games in the regular season.

[ice-9]

A Duke message board is probably the only place on the internet where you wouldn't find near unanimous agreement that Harden is better than Irving. I mean, Harden would probably have won MVP last year if we lived in a society that used a Base 8 number system.

The thing that's missing to me in the discussion of "he's trying to get ahead of Lebron leaving next year" is... just the fact that that's next year, not this year. That one year is not trivial. It's Kyrie's best chance to get another ring, especially if the Warriors have an injury or something. Those chances are rare.

Note that no one is saying Kyrie has achieved as much as Harden has individually, only that he has the potential to given the right situation. Perhaps that's why given all that's happened he wants out.

Agree that if I were Kyrie I'd prefer to continue playing with LeBron with a shot at the championship, but we are sitting in our arm chairs and don't have complete information.

[CDu]

Note that no one is saying Kyrie has achieved as much as Harden has individually, only that he has the potential to given the right situation. Perhaps that's why given all that's happened he wants out.

Agree that if I were Kyrie I'd prefer to continue playing with LeBron with a shot at the championship, but we are sitting in our arm chairs and don't have complete information.

If we are talking about potential, then definitely I can see a very solid case for Irving as top-10. It is all about whether he improves. One thing to note though, and I think you agree given your last sentence: be careful what you wish for. Irving may be champing at the bit to be "the man." But it is a lot easier to look like a superstar with LeBron paving the way and carrying the burden of running the show. Irving runs the risk of winding up in a slightly better version of his pre-LeBron days: a flashy scorer on a bad team.

[SilkyJ]

I would offer a caveat that I am judging him by his playoff performances, since I don't see as many cavs games in the regular season.

I'm largely judging him on his playoff performances as well and I think that's the right place to judge him. If the last 2 years has taught us anything, its that the regular season kind of doesn't matter.

Last year, the Cavs coasted through half of the regular season, going .500 in the 2nd half of the year. 2 years ago the warriors won 73 games but the Cavs still won it all. They turn it on in the playoffs when it matters so that's when you are seeing him with max effort and his true ability.

I think everyone should be judged by the postseason. Who wants someone that plays great in the regular season and sucks in the postseason?

Edit: I guess Kyrie was probably trying when he played the Warriors on Xmas this year (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oragndFFa8o) :)

[darthur]

Last year, the Cavs coasted through half of the regular season, going .500 in the 2nd half of the year. 2 years ago the warriors won 73 games but the Cavs still won it all. They turn it on in the playoffs when it matters so that's when you are seeing him with max effort and his true ability.

There is some truth to this for Kyrie but thankfully, I think the Cavs are really the only team right now that sleepwalks through the regular season. Good thing since regular season NBA represents most of my basketball watching in general and I'd hate to get just exhibitions. Duke games are hard to catch on the west coast, and who wants to watch the pac-12? :rolleyes: It's also worth noting that the playoffs differ for reasons other than effort too. The refs allow much more contact in the playoffs in general, and also teams can prepare better for their specific opponent (which probably has something to do with why Harden's effectiveness dips).

I am biased since I'm a Bay Area native, but I think the Cavs' championship 2 years ago is also partly due to Steph's injuries, since for whatever reason, he never regained regular season form after it that year. Of course, the Cavs got screwed the year before by injury, so it all evens out kinda sorta.

[jbay201]

its funny how most of you go into all these advanced stats about how player x is better due to slightly better FG percentage or whatever. You know the only thing that matters is championships right. Sure kyrie had lebron but lets not forgot that lebron had kyrie. Lebron had horrible efficiency stats the one series without him and was super lucky to even win 2 games against the warriors. The series wasn't even close if you actually watched it despite the 4-2 record. Kyrie won Lebron a championship because I guarantee if Lebron shot that 3 or a long 2 he would miss like he has many times when a critical game is on the line (Ray Allen saved him in game 6 after he MISSED the biggest shot of his life).

In my opinion, it isn't even a question Kyrie Irving is a top 10 player in the league and 2nd best PG in the league (behind Steph Curry). John Wall, Chris Paul, etc don't have rings and many haven't even made the conference finals after all these years which is pathetic. No one cares if you jump higher or score a slightly higher percentage or guard someone slightly better (none of the top PGs are good defenders as they are too short to block shots or guard multiple positions), all that matters is championships and what role you played in WINNING THEM (not a benchwarmer like mcadoo).

By the way, Harden sucks and gets half his points by drawing fouls which doesn't work in the playoffs. His abysmal performance in the playoffs every year knocks him off as a top 10 player in the NBA IMO. It's an insult to put Kyrie below him.

Kyrie is making the absolute best decision because we all know lebron is going to leave after this year. Even if they make the finals what's the point because they will lose 4-0 or 4-1 to the warriors again. Then kyrie is left with k-love and richard jefferson as his next best players lol.

[DukeTrinity11]

If we are talking about potential, then definitely I can see a very solid case for Irving as top-10. It is all about whether he improves. One thing to note though, and I think you agree given your last sentence: be careful what you wish for. Irving may be champing at the bit to be "the man." But it is a lot easier to look like a superstar with LeBron paving the way and carrying the burden of running the show. Irving runs the risk of winding up in a slightly better version of his pre-LeBron days: a flashy scorer on a bad team.
I don't believe Kyrie is a top 10 player or the 2nd best PG/SG in the NBA. I do believe he's the 3rd best scorer in the world behind Kevin Durant and Steph Curry.

You argue that Kyrie doesn't bring much else to the table when he "isn't on"...but do share what Steph Curry and James Harden bring to the table when they're having bad nights? Both Curry and Harden tend to turn the ball over at an alarmingly high rate and ball watch in the corner when they're having a bad shooting game.

Due to Steph being a superior passer, rebounder and shooter than Kyrie, I do consider him better. Same with Harden...he's an amazing rebounder and creative passer for his position.

I just personally feel like the young superstars in the league like Jokic, Gobert, Porzingis, Booker and Wiggins are being overrated with regards to their prospects compared to Irving. The fact that Phoenix thinks Booker is untouchable and the Wolves don't want to deal Wiggins for Kyrie is silly.

In many ways, NBA players are like women. The younger you are and the more mysterious you are, the more attractive you become. :D

[darthur]

I don't believe Kyrie is a top 10 player or the 2nd best PG/SG in the NBA. I do believe he's the 3rd best scorer in the world behind Kevin Durant and Steph Curry.

You argue that Kyrie doesn't bring much else to the table when he "isn't on"...but do share what Steph Curry and James Harden bring to the table when they're having bad nights? Both Curry and Harden tend to turn the ball over at an alarmingly high rate and ball watch in the corner when they're having a bad shooting game.

Due to Steph being a superior passer, rebounder and shooter than Kyrie, I do consider him better. Same with Harden...he's an amazing rebounder and creative passer for his position.

Steph doesn't need to be on to have defenses contort themselves into circles to try to guard his jumpshot. Even without the ball, he moves extremely well and teams go to ridiculous lengths against him, such as Cleveland having one person face-guard him at all times no matter what (see here: https://www.sbnation.com/2017/1/16/14229548/stephen-curry-stats-cavaliers-defense-analysis) and not even look at the other people on the floor. On the ball, teams double team him almost constantly when he does pick-and-rolls leaving the rest of the team to run 4-vs-3. Neither of these things require him to make a single shot and they still have huge effect. He also has two extremely high efficiency ways of creating his own shot -- jump shots and drives. Usually he can still drive even if his jumper isn't falling. Oh yeah, and he's a solid passer and is by far the main driver of the pace in Golden State's pace-and-space offense. His defense is of course a weak point given his size, but he's generally considered quite passable. Espn's real plusminus ranks him at least above average every year, thanks partly to his knack for steals.

Kyrie has one ridiculously elite skill -- the ability to drive on anyone and make insane shots around the rim. He's an excellent outsider shooter but I think (don't know) this is mostly off the catch, rather than off the dribble. Perhaps because he doesn't move off the ball much, he certainly can't manufacture outside shots at anywhere near the rate that Steph does. He plays shooting guard more than point guard with LeBron, so does not get a ton of assists and is not the team's floor general. And his defense (at least on aggregate) is generally considered significantly worse than Steph's. I actually think Kyrie is very consistent at finding ways to score -- all of these guys are -- but I also think he does less to make his teammates better than Curry+Harden.

Harden I have less to say about since I try to avoid watching him whenever possible. He does put up some real stinkers sometimes, but his game is predicated around free throws and that's usually much more reliable than hitting impossible shots. And he, like Steph, absolutely runs his team's offense, racking up assists if nothing else.

PS: Do we really think LeBron is a worse scorer than Steph, KD, and Kyrie? Just because he's good at other stuff doesn't mean he's not a fricking incredible scorer.

[LasVegas]

its funny how most of you go into all these advanced stats about how player x is better due to slightly better FG percentage or whatever. You know the only thing that matters is championships right. Sure kyrie had lebron but lets not forgot that lebron had kyrie. Lebron had horrible efficiency stats the one series without him and was super lucky to even win 2 games against the warriors. The series wasn't even close if you actually watched it despite the 4-2 record. Kyrie won Lebron a championship because I guarantee if Lebron shot that 3 or a long 2 he would miss like he has many times when a critical game is on the line (Ray Allen saved him in game 6 after he MISSED the biggest shot of his life).

In my opinion, it isn't even a question Kyrie Irving is a top 10 player in the league and 2nd best PG in the league (behind Steph Curry). John Wall, Chris Paul, etc don't have rings and many haven't even made the conference finals after all these years which is pathetic. No one cares if you jump higher or score a slightly higher percentage or guard someone slightly better (none of the top PGs are good defenders as they are too short to block shots or guard multiple positions), all that matters is championships and what role you played in WINNING THEM (not a benchwarmer like mcadoo).

By the way, Harden sucks and gets half his points by drawing fouls which doesn't work in the playoffs. His abysmal performance in the playoffs every year knocks him off as a top 10 player in the NBA IMO. It's an insult to put Kyrie below him.

Kyrie is making the absolute best decision because we all know lebron is going to leave after this year. Even if they make the finals what's the point because they will lose 4-0 or 4-1 to the warriors again. Then kyrie is left with k-love and richard jefferson as his next best players lol.

The data doesn't agree with you. (Missing 2 most recent seasons)

"In the playoffs LeBron has now taken 10 potential go-ahead shots in the final five seconds of the fourth quarter or overtime. He's connected on six of them, according to ESPN's Brian Windhorst. Jordan was 5-of-11 in such situations during his career.

And let's not leave Kobe Bryant out of this conversation either. LeBron is now 8-of-19 on potential game-tying or go-ahead shots taken in the final 24 seconds of the fourth quarter or overtime during postseason games, per ESPN's Aloki Pattani. Bryant has hit less (7) despite taking more (28)."
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.sbnation.com/platform/amp/nba/2015/5/11/8584749/lebron-james-michael-jordan-game-winning-shots

I also would like to know where in Cleveland you have lived since you stated that it sucks to live there earlier in this thread. I assume you actually HAVE lived there....right?

[Matches]

Kyrie won Lebron a championship because I guarantee if Lebron shot that 3 or a long 2 he would miss like he has many times when a critical game is on the line (Ray Allen saved him in game 6 after he MISSED the biggest shot of his life).

In my opinion, it isn't even a question Kyrie Irving is a top 10 player in the league and 2nd best PG in the league (behind Steph Curry). John Wall, Chris Paul, etc don't have rings and many haven't even made the conference finals after all these years which is pathetic. No one cares if you jump higher or score a slightly higher percentage or guard someone slightly better (none of the top PGs are good defenders as they are too short to block shots or guard multiple positions), all that matters is championships and what role you played in WINNING THEM (not a benchwarmer like mcadoo).



By that logic, Tony Parker >> Kyrie. Multiple rings, key role in winning them.

It's not just about rings. If Lebron hadn't returned to Cleveland, Kyrie wouldn't have a ring either, nor would he have been likely to sniff a conference final. But he'd still be an elite player. Put Lebron on the Wizards or Clippers for the last few years and Wall and CP3's resumes would look a lot different.

[Jeffrey]

Kawhi is the perfect superstar teammate for him. He's basically LeBron without the ego.

Really?

[Jeffrey]

Full and fair disclosure, I agree with CDu's stated opinions about KI's current NBA ranking. However, I truly have tried to not let that affect my opinion below.

IMO, CDu has been going one-on-many, for many posts, with great class and dignity. I have debated with him, on multiple occasions, and he has always shown great class and dignity. I think some of the comments about his posts are inappropriate.

[kAzE]

Really?

You're gonna have to give me more than that to respond to. Yeah, Kawhi is basically LeBron without the pettiness and drama. Of course he's not peak LeBron, who could carry teams to the finals single-handedly, but he will surpass LeBron as an NBA player within the next 2-3 years. He's already a better regular season player. This is probably why Kyrie wants to play with him and be a part of the Spurs' organization. Stuff like this trade request leak NEVER would have happened in San Antonio.

[PackMan97]

Would the Spurs be willing to give up enough to get Kyrie?

[flyingdutchdevil]

You're gonna have to give me more than that to respond to. Yeah, Kawhi is basically LeBron without the pettiness and drama. Of course he's not peak LeBron, who could carry teams to the finals single-handedly, but he will surpass LeBron as an NBA player within the next 2-3 years. He's already a better regular season player. This is probably why Kyrie wants to play with him.

I see what you're saying, but you're going giving Lebron enough credit as a playmaker. And to me, that is what makes Lebron so ruthless and efficient as a basketball player. Kawhi is indisputably the better defender. He's by far the better shooter. He may be even as a rebounder, even though Lebron has better rebounding stats. But as a playmaker? There is no way I can buy that. Lebron's assists have been pretty amazing since he joined the league, even though his TOs reached an all time high this year (4.1). Even with that insane number, he has a better A-to-TO ratio than Kawhi.

Kawhi is the ideal teammate. He's such a good two-way player. He tries all the time. By all accounts, he's a really good leader. But I'm not buying he's Lebron without the pettiness and drama. Lebron without the pettiness and drama would still be the #1 player in the NBA, bar none.

[Jeffrey]

Yeah, Kawhi is basically LeBron without the pettiness and drama.

I strongly disagree. IMO, LeBron is the best of his generation and is capable of doing whatever it takes to get his team in the NBA Finals.

[DukieInKansas]

I strongly disagree. IMO, LeBron is the best of his generation and is capable of doing whatever it takes to get his team in the NBA Finals.

Has he ever won a championship without a former Duke player on the roster with him?

[atoomer0881]

Has he ever won a championship without a former Duke player on the roster with him?

And that's why Cleveland should have never traded Dunleavy for Korver this year....

[kAzE]

I see what you're saying, but you're going giving Lebron enough credit as a playmaker. And to me, that is what makes Lebron so ruthless and efficient as a basketball player. Kawhi is indisputably the better defender. He's by far the better shooter. He may be even as a rebounder, even though Lebron has better rebounding stats. But as a playmaker? There is no way I can buy that. Lebron's assists have been pretty amazing since he joined the league, even though his TOs reached an all time high this year (4.1). Even with that insane number, he has a better A-to-TO ratio than Kawhi.

Kawhi is the ideal teammate. He's such a good two-way player. He tries all the time. By all accounts, he's a really good leader. But I'm not buying he's Lebron without the pettiness and drama. Lebron without the pettiness and drama would still be the #1 player in the NBA, bar none.

Huh? That's like saying if beer didn't make you fat, it would still taste really good. Of course LeBron would still be good if he wasn't always so passive aggressive, no one is arguing against that.

All I'm saying is, LeBron is in the twilight of his prime. Kawhi is just hitting his. What they were in the past is irrelevant. What matters is how good they will be in the next 5 years, which will be Kyrie's peak years. I think it's absolutely fair to say Kawhi will be the better player for the next 5 years. He and LeBron are not that far apart right now, and that gap will continue to shrink as LeBron ages. Kawhi is not done growing, either.

Remember, I'm the one who has been saying LeBron should be in the same conversation as Jordan. You don't have to sell me on LeBron's greatness. But LeBron's greatness comes with a lot of baggage. Just because he's LeBron doesn't mean there aren't better places for Kyrie to grow his career. Kyrie is tired of LeBron dictating his career path, and having an uncertain future. I understand why there is so much backlash over this, but there really shouldn't be. Every professional has the right to obtain some security with regards to their career.

Selfishly, I kind of wish Kyrie would consider a career in Milwaukee with Giannis (Kyrie for Jabari/Brogdon/1st rounder?). Giannis actually is a high level playmaker and also doesn't cause drama. Unfortunately, I'm guessing Kyrie is more interested in big TV markets.

[flyingdutchdevil]

I don't want to get into a ranking argument on Kyrie. I view Kyrie very similarly to CDu, although I think he's incredibly valuable to any franchise (will comment on that later).

Kyrie's pros:
-He's a great scorer. His 3pt shooting is really good, he's excellent in the mid-range, and he can get to the rim at will. I tend to agree that he's one of the best scorers in the NBA and arguably top 5 (there I go with rankings...)
-He's clutch. It's not just the "shot". Kyrie shines brightest when the stakes are the highest. Playoffs. Battles against GSW. He's so good at one-on-one that this enables him to be clutch.
-He's a good teammate. You kinda have to be if Lebron is your teammate. Lebron expects a ton out of you and will publicly humiliate you if you don't listen (Kevin Love, how have you not requested a trade by now?). Also, it's not easy when you're the man of the city to not be the man of the city over night.
-He has an unbelievable handle. To me, best in the game. And I don't think it's close. But what does a handle actually get you? Well, it makes scoring easier. That's about it...

Kyrie's cons:
-He's an okay distributor. Kyrie has averaged 5.8 assists throughout his career while averaging 34.2 minutes. This year, his assists per minute who rank #45. Yup. You heard that right. #45. I don't buy that his assists took a huge hit with Lebron coming on board. As a matter of fact, his assists per game only went down only 0.5. I firmly believe that if Kyrie were on another team as the lead ball handler, his assists per game wouldn't go over 7. Kyrie is an okay distributor, but he's not even close to the same league as Paul, Harden, Wall, Westbrook, Rubio, etc etc.
-He's an abysmal defender. IMO, I think it's a product of both effort and skill. He doesn't care much and he's likely not very good. He's tall for a PG, but he's not particularly strong. He's quick in every direction, but he doesn't read his defender well. He doesn't care about team D. He's sometimes very lazy. Without LBJ shouting and encouraging Kyrie on D, I'm not sure Kyrie can get better.
-He's statistically okay/bad in everything else. Steals, blocks, A-to-TO...he's not exactly providing much value in these fields.

What makes Kyrie great
The thing that makes Kyrie so attractive to a franchise, IMO, is his popularity. This year, Kyrie had the #5 best selling jersey. Yes - the Cavs won and are the best team in the East. But the top 10 selling jerseys are as follows:

1. Curry
2. LBJ
3. Durant
4. Westbrook
5. Irving
6. Leonard
7. Porzingis
8. Butler
9. Giannis
10. Harden

So you have 5 players from huge markets (SF/Oakland, NYC, Chicago, Houston), 2 additional MVPs (LBJ, Westbrook), 2 athlete freaks who are going to be relevant for the next 10 years and extremely likeable (Giannis, Leonard), and Kyrie. To me, Kyrie belongs with Giannis and Kawhi: young, likeable, does things on the court that are insane.

Kyrie's handle enables him to get so many highlight reels, so many Sports Center clips, so many likes on Youtube, etc etc etc. He is a magician with the ball. Also, he treats the media with respect and does a lot of commercials. The dude is straight up likeable!

Also, how many Nike NBA players have their own Nike brand? No, not under a sub-brand like Jordan or Nike Air, but their own brand? Am I right in assuming it's only Lebron, Durant, and Kyrie? Are there any others? To me, that speaks volumes about Kyrie's popularity.

And that popularity will sell a ton of tickets. And that is very important.

[Jeffrey]

Remember, I'm the one who has been saying LeBron should be in the same conversation as Jordan.

IMO, Kawhi will never be in that conversation and is not...


... basically LeBron without the ego.

You appear to be backpedaling on your statement when you now introduce for the next five seasons, given their six year age difference.


I think it's absolutely fair to say Kawhi will be the better player for the next 5 years.


I'm not even sure that will be true. Want to wager which one plays in more NBA Finals during the next 3 years?

[drummerdevil]

IMO, Kawhi will never be in that conversation and is not...



You appear to be backpedaling on your statement when you now introduce for the next five seasons, given their six year age difference.



I'm not even sure that will be true. Want to wager which one plays in more NBA Finals during the next 3 years?

You can't do that until Kawhi is in the East or LeBron is in the west. Kawhi is in a much tougher situation in the west, as the west is only getting weaker and the spurs are only getting older. Next season, they might well lose Tony Parker and Manu Ginobili, leaving them without as much veteran leadership. However, the Spurs will never tank to get better, because, well, they're the Spurs. LeBron, on the other hand, will walk to three more finals because the east has almost nothing left to throw at him.

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

Everyone on this thread is making me feel a little crazy.

Sports talk isn't killing Kyrie today, but it sure is a big topic of conversation. Consensus seems to be that the real loser here is Cleveland fans, who will return to the cellar post-haste and wonder how it all went so fast.

[kAzE]

IMO, Kawhi will never be in that conversation and is not...

You appear to be backpedaling on your statement when you now introduce for the next five seasons, given their six year age difference.

I'm not even sure that will be true. Want to wager which one plays in more NBA Finals during the next 3 years?

I already "backpedaled" 2 posts ago when I said "of course Kawhi isn't peak LeBron." We're not talking about peak LeBron. We're talking about Kawhi and LeBron in relation to Kyrie 's career. Nobody except you is comparing overall careers. For the second time, what these players were in the past is irrelevant. I also never mentioned Kawhi in the same sentence as Jordan. Stop trying to put words in my mouth. I only mentioned the Jordan thing to prove that I'm not a LeBron hater, and I do think his overall career is great.

However, there was nothing to "backpedal" from. I said (in the context of the Kyrie situation) Kawhi is "basically LeBron," which is true, because I don't see a huge amount of difference between the 2 when it comes to Kyrie's career for the foreseeable future. Kahwi should have been the MVP this year in my opinion. You're letting his ankle injury in the playoffs affect your view of him. He's a top 3 player. If I were Kyrie, Kawhi is absolutely a more desirable teammate. Why do you think he wants out? If Kyrie had your opinions, there's no way he'd be trying to leave Cleveland.

And yeah, I echo drummerdevil's post. It's idiotic to compare finals appearances accross conferences. The Cavs wouldn't have made the finals this year in the west. That's pretty obvious.

[superdave]

Everyone on this thread is making me feel a little crazy.

Sports talk isn't killing Kyrie today, but it sure is a big topic of conversation. Consensus seems to be that the real loser here is Cleveland fans, who will return to the cellar post-haste and wonder how it all went so fast.

Seems like the Knicks are the most likely landing spot. KI is from the area and NY could include Carmelo in a deal.

I dont know what the Spurs could put together unless someone really wants Aldridge (which was not the case around draft time).

Would the Clippers deal DeAndre for Kyrie?

Have any packages with Minnesota been floated? Jeff Teague cant be traded for a while.

[Jeffrey]

Has he ever won a championship without a former Duke player on the roster with him?

Definitely not. The Heat could not win a championship without Shane! LeBron only dreams of shooting 3's as well as Shane in the NBA Finals.

[Jeffrey]

Stop trying to put words in my mouth.

I quoted you verbatim.


Kawhi is "basically LeBron," which is true, because I don't see a huge amount of difference between the 2 when it comes to Kyrie's career for the foreseeable future.

You appear to be backpedaling further with the introduction of "huge amount of difference between the 2".

Words are cheap. Want to wager which one plays in more NBA Finals during the next 3 years?

[CDu]

Seems like the Knicks are the most likely landing spot. KI is from the area and NY could include Carmelo in a deal.

I dont know what the Spurs could put together unless someone really wants Aldridge (which was not the case around draft time).

Would the Clippers deal DeAndre for Kyrie?

Have any packages with Minnesota been floated? Jeff Teague cant be traded for a while.

The Timberwolves can't trade Teague until around the start of the season I think. But yeah, it would have to involve Teague. Or Wiggins plus filler. Most likely, it would have to be a multi-player deal (guys from both sides) with picks included to make it work.

But, again, Cleveland has no obligation to send Irving to a contender. They can send him to the highest bidder. And I imagine that there would be some bad teams willing to fork over assets to acquire Irving in hopes of building around him, moreso than any contender can offer.

[kAzE]

I quoted you verbatim.

You appear to be backpedaling further with the introduction of "huge amount of difference between the 2".

Words are cheap. Want to wager which one plays in more NBA Finals during the next 3 years?

You seem to be bad at understanding words. I could spend a ton of effort and school you, but I'm done with this pointless debate. Not worth my time to argue with someone who doesn't listen.

[Jeffrey]

You can't do that until Kawhi is in the East or LeBron is in the west. Kawhi is in a much tougher situation in the west, as the west is only getting weaker and the spurs are only getting older. Next season, they might well lose Tony Parker and Manu Ginobili, leaving them without as much veteran leadership. However, the Spurs will never tank to get better, because, well, they're the Spurs. LeBron, on the other hand, will walk to three more finals because the east has almost nothing left to throw at him.

IMO, it's relevant since kAzE is addressing things.....


in the context of the Kyrie situation

[DukeTrinity11]

I quoted you verbatim.



You appear to be backpedaling further with the introduction of "huge amount of difference between the 2".

Words are cheap. Want to wager which one plays in more NBA Finals during the next 3 years?
What kAzE is trying to explain to you is that Kawhi has a much more difficult path to the NBA Finals being in the Western Conference so the answer to this question will obviously be LeBron unless he moves West as well.

Kyrie Irving has 5 more years left in his "prime" till he turns 30. Do you not think Kawhi will eclipse LeBron as a basketball player by 2021?

Kawhi just turned 26 so him and Irving could wreak havoc on the league for the next 5 years.

I do believe the Spurs with Irving would have a better shot at upsetting the Warriors than this Finals version of the Cavs did, albeit still unlikely.

[Matches]

Kyrie Irving has 5 more years left in his "prime" till he turns 30. Do you not think Kawhi will eclipse LeBron as a basketball player by 2021?


If it were anyone else, I'd say "yes" without hesitation. Lebron is an unparalleled physical freak though. When you consider that he's played 14 NBA seasons, almost all of which involved deep playoff runs, rarely gotten hurt, and often played huge minutes - the tread on that guy's tires, he ought to be declining already.

And maybe he is, a little, but it's really subtle. I'm not saying he won't decline in the next few years, or that Kawhi won't pass him at some point, but I also wouldn't be surprised if that doesn't happen.

[moonpie23]

everyone has a take on this situation, but it's still kind of depressing to watch....i want him to do whatever he feels like he has to do for his career, i just hope that he's hasn't fallen victim to some flat earth advisors and counselors.....

i don't mean to say that they are intertwined, but, if his flat earth thing is true, (that he bought it) it might point to how he looks at the advice, and the advisors...


:(


regardless, that's gonna be a stinky locker room if he's not traded....

[Jeffrey]

Kyrie Irving has 5 more years left in his "prime" till he turns 30. Do you not think Kawhi will eclipse LeBron as a basketball player by 2021?


One man's prime is another man's time. This is LeBron's time and he owns the game.

I would have preferred to be on Jordan's team, when he was 33-35, than whoever was the 3rd, 4th, or 5th best player, in the NBA, from 1996-1998.

I sure hope KI is not as focused on 2021 as you and kAzE. IMO, sports careers are short and time is of the essence. Kawhi and/or KI may not even be playing basketball in 2021.


What kAzE is trying to explain to you is that Kawhi has a much more difficult path to the NBA Finals being in the Western Conference so the answer to this question will obviously be LeBron unless he moves West as well.


It should have been obvious, my wager offer was based upon LeBron's superiority and the relative ease of the eastern path. IMO, if KI's primary focus is winning titles (like KD's), then LeBron (not Kawhi) is his best bet. If KI's primary focus is ego, then he probably does not want to play for Pop.

[subzero02]

everyone has a take on this situation, but it's still kind of depressing to watch...i want him to do whatever he feels like he has to do for his career, i just hope that he's hasn't fallen victim to some flat earth advisors and counselors....

i don't mean to say that they are intertwined, but, if his flat earth thing is true, (that he bought it) it might point to how he looks at the advice, and the advisors...


:(


regardless, that's gonna be a stinky locker room if he's not traded...

Really? His flat earth comment was an attempt to toy with the media and public perception. He was mocking the fake news phenomenon.

Some of the posts in this thread indicate this is going to be a very long and peculiar off season. Lots of bickering. I am ready for football to start.

I hope Kyrie goes to San Antonio. I think that squad could be wonderful, depending on what they have to give up. For what it's worth, I'm in the camp that thinks Kyrie is a top 10 player in the league.

[moonpie23]

Really? His flat earth comment was an attempt to toy with the media and public perception. He was mocking the fake news phenomenon.

.

are you sure? he has not walked that back one single step.......

[subzero02]

are you sure? he has not walked that back one single step....





"It would be scientifically impossible, which I'm totally aware of that," Irving said after the East's All-Star practice on Saturday.

" i just feel like the fact that it's even a conversation is hilarious," he said. "That that could actually be news. It's hilarious."

http://www.cleveland.com/cavs/index.ssf/2017/02/kyrie_irving_admits_science_su.html

[moonpie23]

http://www.cleveland.com/cavs/index.ssf/2017/02/kyrie_irving_admits_science_su.html

i hadn't seen that....it's still not completely clear. ....but i'll give him the benefit...I'm not sure what kind of "political statement" you're trying to make by saying "i'm dumb enough to think that the earth is flat"...

the FLAT EARTH SOCIETY's annual meeting is here in Cary, NC this november...I'll be skulking around the hotel to see if he shows up...

[arnie]

Really? His flat earth comment was an attempt to toy with the media and public perception. He was mocking the fake news phenomenon.

Some of the posts in this thread indicate this is going to be a very long and peculiar off season. Lots of bickering. I am ready for football to start.

I hope Kyrie goes to San Antonio. I think that squad could be wonderful, depending on what they have to give up. For what it's worth, I'm in the camp that thinks Kyrie is a top 10 player in the league.

A good fit for Kyrie since the earth appears flatter in San Antonio than say Denver or Utah.

[CDu]

i hadn't seen that...it's still not completely clear. ...but i'll give him the benefit...I'm not sure what kind of "political statement" you're trying to make by saying "i'm dumb enough to think that the earth is flat"...

the FLAT EARTH SOCIETY's annual meeting is here in Cary, NC this november...I'll be skulking around the hotel to see if he shows up...

Yeah, it seems to be a case of a guy trying to come off as enlightened. But he just came off looking like a buffoon. I think he was trying to show how "woke" he is by saying don't believe everything you are told. But he chose a stupid example. And afterwards, he tried to play it off as an example of the fake news phenomenon. Well, of COURSE it was news. A famous athlete - from Duke - said he thought the world might be flat. If he is surprised or amused that such a thing made the news, he is far less woke than he thinks.

He appeared to be trying to be clever and stubbed his toe. That is ok - he appears to have recovered nicely.

That said, I fear he is making a bad career move by demanding a trade. Odds are good he will be going to a bad team if traded. So he will spend two years just trying to avoid regaining his pre-LeBron rep. And I suspect he will find life on the court not so easy without LeBron there to draw away defenses and to shoulder the PG duties. Or worse, he won't get traded, and will spend the year getting made out to be a scapegoat by LeBron all season whenever things go wrong.

I certainly hope things work out, but the margin for error seems so thin.

[darthur]

IMO, if KI's primary focus is winning titles (like KD's), then LeBron (not Kawhi) is his best bet. If KI's primary focus is ego, then he probably does not want to play for Pop.

Those aren't the only options. :( Btw, some of the stories were claiming he specifically did want to play for Pop.

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

He appeared to be trying to be clever and stubbed his toe.


Sorry brother, still too soon.

[CDu]

Sorry brother, still too soon.

Oof, that was totally accidental. I can't believe I didn't put that together. I done bad.

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

Oof, that was totally accidental. I can't believe I didn't put that together. I done bad.

My wife, who cares very little about sports in general, still refers to Kyrie as "Turf Toe."

[nmduke2001]

Here's a few trades that work. Since Kyrie has no say, New Orleans could be a destination. Also, one sending him to NYC. Both trades get Melo to Cleveland.

http://www.espn.com/nba/tradeMachine?tradeId=y7tcodbv

http://www.espn.com/nba/tradeMachine?tradeId=yctc34x3

[JNort]

Here's a few trades that work. Since Kyrie has no say, New Orleans could be a destination. Also, one sending him to NYC. Both trades get Melo to Cleveland.

http://www.espn.com/nba/tradeMachine?tradeId=y7tcodbv

http://www.espn.com/nba/tradeMachine?tradeId=yctc34x3

Would love to see Bledsoe with the LeBron/Melo. He's one of my favorite pgs (when he plays)

[JNort]

Well Cavs just got Rose for the ridiculously cheap price of 2.1 mil. That's a steal!

[lotusland]

Cavs got Rose for one year. Whither Kyrie?
https://www.yahoo.com/sports/rose-cavaliers-meet-discuss-one-deal-182135263--nba.html

[cato]

He appeared to be trying to be clever and stubbed his toe.

Please, no. Anything but the toe!

[subzero02]

ESPN's front page quotes an unnamed source that states Lebron is tempted to kick Kyrie's "bottom" for dragging his name into the trade discussions. I hope these two wind up facing each other in a playoff series. Given the competitive streak both possess, it would be some very entertaining basketball. Clash of the egos...

[Old Gold 89]

Kyrie's trade demand just strikes me as idiotic. Apparently, things aren't perfect in Cleveland. Oh, really? Where are things perfect outside of Golden State?

This is just a dumb career move. Super dumb. He's one of my favorite Duke players of all time. I was at the game in which he hurt his toe. I remember watching him play in high school. I love his game, love his spirit, love his moxie.

Still, demanding a trade from Cleveland, leaving LeBron James -- I just don't get it. He should be thanking God every day that he has a chance to play with one of the greatest players and leaders of all time. The more I think about it, the stupider it seems to me. Can you imagine any minor superstar (like Kyrie is) demanding to be traded away from a team led by Larry Bird, Magic Johnson, Bill Russell or Michael Jordan???

Sure, Shaq got sick of Kobie. 1. Shaq is way, way, way better than Kyrie. 2. LeBron is a better leader than Kobie. Kobie strikes me as a flat-out jerk. 3. Shaq never should have left LA. Worst move of his career, by far.

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

Kyrie's trade demand just strikes me as idiotic. Apparently, things aren't perfect in Cleveland. Oh, really? Where are things perfect outside of Golden State?

This is just a dumb career move. Super dumb. He's one of my favorite Duke players of all time. I was at the game in which he hurt his toe. I remember watching him play in high school. I love his game, love his spirit, love his moxie.

Still, demanding a trade from Cleveland, leaving LeBron James -- I just don't get it. He should be thanking God every day that he has a chance to play with one of the greatest players and leaders of all time. The more I think about it, the stupider it seems to me. Can you imagine any minor superstar (like Kyrie is) demanding to be traded away from a team led by Larry Bird, Magic Johnson, Bill Russell or Michael Jordan???

Sure, Shaq got sick of Kobie. 1. Shaq is way, way, way better than Kyrie. 2. LeBron is a better leader than Kobie. Kobie strikes me as a flat-out jerk. 3. Shaq never should have left LA. Worst move of his career, by far.

Reasons listed earlier in this thread that Kyrie might want to leave (all conjecture, as nothing has been definitively stated) :

- Kyrie knows LeBron will be leaving and wants no part of a rebuilding process
- Kyrie is tired of the attention and drama that accompanies being on LeBron's team
- Kyrie is tired of living in Cleveland
- Kyrie wants the chance to be the number one option on offense again
- Kyrie is tired of playing for a team where the de facto GM/coach is a teammate
- Kyrie was upset that the Cavs were reportedly shopping him prior to the draft and decided he didn't want to stay with a franchise that would ship him off
- Kyrie got a ring, and has decided that the LeBron circus isn't worth hoping the Warriors fall victim to injuries so he might get another this year
- Kyrie feels undervalued in Cleveland, and will never get proper credit as LeBron's #2

Fact is, Kyrie is sort of bluffing. He has another two years on his contract, and didn't negotiate any trade restrictions. Cavs can keep him for two more years until his contract expires, or they can trade him to the Sacramento Kings for magic beans.

But, unlike you, I don't have any issue with Kyrie making what is, for all intents and purposes, his own business decisions.

[budwom]

LBJ is a PreMadonna

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

LBJ is a PreMadonna

He isn't THAT old

[Edouble]

Kyrie's trade demand just strikes me as idiotic. Apparently, things aren't perfect in Cleveland. Oh, really? Where are things perfect outside of Golden State?

This is just a dumb career move. Super dumb. He's one of my favorite Duke players of all time. I was at the game in which he hurt his toe. I remember watching him play in high school. I love his game, love his spirit, love his moxie.

Still, demanding a trade from Cleveland, leaving LeBron James -- I just don't get it. He should be thanking God every day that he has a chance to play with one of the greatest players and leaders of all time. The more I think about it, the stupider it seems to me. Can you imagine any minor superstar (like Kyrie is) demanding to be traded away from a team led by Larry Bird, Magic Johnson, Bill Russell or Michael Jordan???

Sure, Shaq got sick of Kobie. 1. Shaq is way, way, way better than Kyrie. 2. LeBron is a better leader than Kobie. Kobie strikes me as a flat-out jerk. 3. Shaq never should have left LA. Worst move of his career, by far.

Kobe

[Matches]

Still, demanding a trade from Cleveland, leaving LeBron James -- I just don't get it. He should be thanking God every day that he has a chance to play with one of the greatest players and leaders of all time. The more I think about it, the stupider it seems to me. Can you imagine any minor superstar (like Kyrie is) demanding to be traded away from a team led by Larry Bird, Magic Johnson, Bill Russell or Michael Jordan???



He's probably only got one more year of playing with Lebron, though, before LBJ bolts and Kyrie is left on a roster with Love, a bunch of overpaid spare parts, no cap room, poor draft position and an inept front office. It's all conjecture as he hasn't said anything publicly, but it wouldn't be a crazy decision to jump off the ship before it sinks rather than after.

Also worth noting that Kyrie "demanding" a trade is language that comes from the media and/or whoever is leaking this stuff, which is most definitely NOT Kyrie or his agent. KI has no standing to "demand" a trade but he's well within his rights to ASK for one. The Cavs can decide whether to accommodate his request.

And no, it's hard to imagine a McHale, a Worthy etc wanting to be traded away from Bird, Magic etc - because as far as we know, it didn't ever happen. But Bird and Magic were never flight risks either. It was just a different era.

[Troublemaker]

LBJ is a PreMadonna


He isn't THAT old

Perhaps not, but neither is he like a virgin when it comes to business decisions and a player looking out for his own interests.

[Indoor66]

He isn't THAT old

Nobody is.😀

[Jeffrey]

Btw, some of the stories were claiming he specifically did want to play for Pop.

I certainly doubt KI would want to play for Pop. I think Grant and Shane would have been much better fits with Pop.

[kAzE]

I've been reading a lot and listening to various podcasts debate this topic, and to me, Kyrie's position is totally justified in my eyes. I might not have done the same thing were I in his shoes necessarily, but I also don't know what his personal relationships with LeBron and the Cavs organization are like. But since we probably will never get the full details, we can only speculate on those things. In my opinion, here are some other, logical reasons why I think he made this decision:

1. He wants to be a real point guard. He's tired of people saying he sucks at passing and is not a distributor. Well, has he really been given a chance to develop as a point guard? His first 3 years were under 2 of the worst offensive coaches in the league: Byron Scott (who tried, and failed spectacularly to implement the triangle offense in LA after he was fired from the Cavs), and Mike Brown . . .

Ever since LeBron came to the Cavs, Kyrie has been mostly a glorified shooting guard. He's tired of his critics always saying he's not a point guard, and wants a chance to develop as the lead ball handler. Everyone constantly says he doesn't make other players better. He wants a chance to prove them wrong.

2. He believes he's a top 10 player (debatable, but you can't fault him for believing it), and yet has only made All-NBA 3rd team once. Isaiah Thomas made 2nd team last season. John Wall and DeMar DeRozan were 3rd team. Damian Lillard was 2nd team last year, and Kyle Lowry made 3rd team. You might say it's because his defense is terrible. It absolutely is. But Isaiah Thomas, Damian Lillard, and Russell Westbrook are all just as bad, yet they are considered All-NBA and Kyrie is not. In my opinion, he's better than all those guys (other than Westbrook), and yet voters don't even think of him when it comes to All-NBA. Why? Because LeBron is on his team. Kyrie will never get the credit he deserves because LeBron is on his team. He saw Westbrook get his own team this year and become 1st Team All-NBA and the MVP. Right or wrong, Kyrie wants to get out of LeBron's shadow.

3. He's already won a championship. Right now the NBA culture is way, way too focused on rings. It's like nothing matters but rings. The more, the better. When in reality, there's a lot more to a great NBA career than winning championships. Most players will never win a ring, but Kyrie already has one. He earned that ring, he didn't get it from LeBron. Now, he just wants to become the best player he can be. He will never be able to truly spread his wings as long as he's playing with LeBron. It's not that he doesn't want to win another championship. I'm sure he knows the best chance he has to win a 2nd title is to stick with LeBron. That's just not the most important thing to him. He wants to win on his own terms. You might think it's stupid, but it's his career, not yours. People leave their jobs at successful companies to go to smaller companies for a more prominent position all the time. Because of the ring obsessed culture, this is looked down upon for some reason?

4. He's tired of LeBron getting everything he wants from the Cavs, and Kyrie is treated as secondary. LeBron gets to have a no-trade clause, signs 2 year deals every year with an opt-out after one year, and basically runs the team as the unofficial GM. He gets to invite his personal buddies on to the team plane, etc., etc.

LeBron always has an escape plan and holds the Cavs hostage. I don't necessarily blame LeBron for doing this, because he has to do what's best for his career, too. However, this has to have a divisive effect on his teammates. He never seems to be fully committed to the long term success of the Cavs. He's only with them as long as they can be used as a means to an end. I can absolutely see why this would make Kyrie unhappy. If LeBron's intentions are to leave the team next offseason, he would leave the Cavs in a world of hurt. They would lack draft picks, cap space, or any young assets to rebuild. Kyrie's prime years would be wasted on a team struggling to become relevant again, like the Nets. Kyrie doesn't want to waste away on a team full of old geezers. Who would want that?

Anyways, those are my theories. I'm most likely biased, because Kyrie is my favorite NBA player, but I believe he's been unjustly ostracized by the media and on social media over this situation, and in my opinion, is justified in this decision. I do not believe this came on a whim, and that he has been unhappy for some time. I'll be rooting for him wherever he goes.

[Jeffrey]

Well, has he really been given a chance to develop as a point guard?

Yes, but he chose to turn pro.

[nmduke2001]

Would love to see Bledsoe with the LeBron/Melo. He's one of my favorite pgs (when he plays)

I think it's a "fair" trade. I'm not sure Cleveland would let go of both Love and Irving to get Melo and Bledsoe in return, but Cleveland doesn't have a lot of leverage right now.

Here's the trade again.
Cleveland gets: Melo and Bledsoe
Phoenix gets: Love
New York gets: Kyrie and Jared Dudley

I actually think the one with NO works a bit better but I don't really think NY wants Kevin Love.
Here's the trade:
Cleveland gets: Melo and D. Cousins
NOLA gets: Kyrie and Hernangomez
New York gets: Love and Shumpert

[flyingdutchdevil]

I think it's a "fair" trade. I'm not sure Cleveland would let go of both Love and Irving to get Melo and Bledsoe in return, but Cleveland doesn't have a lot of leverage right now.

Here's the trade again.
Cleveland gets: Melo and Bledsoe
Phoenix gets: Love
New York gets: Kyrie and Jared Dudley

I actually think the one with NO works a bit better but I don't really think NY wants Kevin Love.
Here's the trade:
Cleveland gets: Melo and D. Cousins
NOLA gets: Kyrie and Hernangomez
New York gets: Love and Shumpert

Bledsoe for Kyrie makes sense. He's a really good scorer, similar assist man to Kyrie, and 10x the defender (maybe 20x? Regardless, Bledsoe is a really good defender). That's a good return for Cleveland.

Melo for Love makes zero sense. Melo's numbers have been falling since '13-'14. He hasn't shot over 40% from 3 since '13-'14. His rebounding rate is the lowest in ten years. And his defense is comparable to Love. I make fun of Love a lot, but at least Love's stats haven't been declining over the last 3 years. If anything, Love has increased his value this year.

[Jeffrey]

Bledsoe for Kyrie makes sense. He's a really good scorer, similar assist man to Kyrie, and 10x the defender (maybe 20x? Regardless, Bledsoe is a really good defender). That's a good return for Cleveland.


Agreed. It's especially nice with Rose subbing for Bledsoe. KI's decision may actually help Cleveland.

[nmduke2001]

Bledsoe for Kyrie makes sense. He's a really good scorer, similar assist man to Kyrie, and 10x the defender (maybe 20x? Regardless, Bledsoe is a really good defender). That's a good return for Cleveland.

Melo for Love makes zero sense. Melo's numbers have been falling since '13-'14. He hasn't shot over 40% from 3 since '13-'14. His rebounding rate is the lowest in ten years. And his defense is comparable to Love. I make fun of Love a lot, but at least Love's stats haven't been declining over the last 3 years. If anything, Love has increased his value this year.

That's the issue...no way you trade Kyrie straight up for Bledsoe. You need other moving parts. My thinking is that LeBron likes Melo and might approve of this trade. If Olympic Melo shows up, it might not be a bad fit (full disclosure, if I were a GM I would go 75 deep before I picked Melo. I think he's awful).

[atoomer0881]

3. He's already won a championship. Right now the NBA culture is way, way too focused on rings. It's like nothing matters but rings. The more, the better. When in reality, there's a lot more to a great NBA career than winning championships. Most players will never win a ring, but Kyrie already has one. He earned that ring, he didn't get it from LeBron. Now, he just wants to become the best player he can be. He will never be able to truly spread his wings as long as he's playing with LeBron. It's not that he doesn't want to win another championship. I'm sure he knows the best chance he has to win a 2nd title is to stick with LeBron. That's just not the most important thing to him. He wants to win on his own terms. You might think it's stupid, but it's his career, not yours. People leave their jobs at successful companies to go to smaller companies for a more prominent position all the time. Because of the ring obsessed culture, this is looked down upon for some reason

This. 1000x this. Couldn't agree with you more.

[superdave]

LeBron always has an escape plan and holds the Cavs hostage. I don't necessarily blame LeBron for doing this, because he has to do what's best for his career, too. However, this has to have a divisive effect on his teammates. He never seems to be fully committed to the long term success of the Cavs. He's only with them as long as they can be used as a means to an end. I can absolutely see why this would make Kyrie unhappy. If LeBron's intentions are to leave the team next offseason, he would leave the Cavs in a world of hurt. They would lack draft picks, cap space, or any young assets to rebuild. Kyrie's prime years would be wasted on a team struggling to become relevant again, like the Nets. Kyrie doesn't want to waste away on a team full of old geezers. Who would want that?


Nice post. I think Lebron's escape plan for next summer and Kyrie getting shopped quietly this summer are the two biggest reasons Kyrie is demanding a trade. I would be chafed too.

The problem really is the timing. Kyrie waited until July 7th to demand a trade; he should have done it in the 10 days between the Finals ending (June 12) and the NBA Draft (June 22).

Look at how quickly Butler got moved around draft time. It's just a really feverish time for deals to get done. Going into training camp is a little tougher because looming draft picks help grease the wheels. The trade deadline can be good too, but the Cavs locker room would suck for the months leading up to that period. Lebron and Kyrie need to bury the hatchet or Kyrie needs to get moved before camp starts.

[cato]

Agreed. It's especially nice with Rose subbing for Bledsoe. KI's decision may actually help Cleveland.

Maybe. One think LeBron needs is another true number 1 option on offense to take the load off when the others are not adding anything.

To put it another way, LeBron would not let rumors fly that he wants to beat up KI (real mature, Bron Bron) if he thought the Cavs would improve by trading Kyrie.

[Indoor66]

I think it's a "fair" trade. I'm not sure Cleveland would let go of both Love and Irving to get Melo and Bledsoe in return, but Cleveland doesn't have a lot of leverage right now.

Here's the trade again.
Cleveland gets: Melo and Bledsoe
Phoenix gets: Love
New York gets: Kyrie and Jared Dudley

I actually think the one with NO works a bit better but I don't really think NY wants Kevin Love.
Here's the trade:
Cleveland gets: Melo and D. Cousins
NOLA gets: Kyrie and Hernangomez
New York gets: Love and Shumpert

Does Melo come with an extra ball?

[Jeffrey]

Maybe. One think LeBron needs is another true number 1 option on offense to take the load off when the others are not adding anything.

To put it another way, LeBron would not let rumors fly that he wants to beat up KI (real mature, Bron Bron) if he thought the Cavs would improve by trading Kyrie.

There are a lot of things LeBron needs if he wants to beat, IMO, the greatest team in NBA history.

[superdave]

There are a lot of things LeBron needs if he wants to beat, IMO, the greatest team in NBA history.

LeBron wont be playing the 96 Bulls, the 86 Celtics or the 72 Lakers. They are all long-retired.

[dukebluesincebirth]

Maybe. One think LeBron needs is another true number 1 option on offense to take the load off when the others are not adding anything.

To put it another way, LeBron would not let rumors fly that he wants to beat up KI (real mature, Bron Bron) if he thought the Cavs would improve by trading Kyrie.

Just to clarify, Lebron already tweeted that he said nothing about beating up Kyrie, and even responded to the reports of him wanting Kyrie gone from Cleveland:

#NotFactspeople! Boooooo!! Get another source.#enjoyingmysummer

Could it be the media is fueling this fire a little more than what actually exists? A down time for sports, create controversy, get people debating and clicking? Interesting that I'm yet to hear a direct quote from Kyrie OR Lebron on this matter. Kyrie is trying to make the smartest career choice for himself as he knows Lebron is gone after one year. Absolutely nothing wrong with that. He hasn't smeared Lebron in the least. Don't let the media twist this into something it's not!

[Jeffrey]

LeBron wont be playing the 96 Bulls, the 86 Celtics or the 72 Lakers. They are all long-retired.

IMO, if LeBron wants to beat the '18 Warriors, then he needs to find his Pip. It appears KI may have too much ego, and definitely too little D, for the role.

[Jeffrey]

Could it be the media is fueling this fire a little more than what actually exists?

Never! Our media tells the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth!

[Indoor66]

Just to clarify, Lebron already tweeted that he said nothing about beating up Kyrie, and even responded to the reports of him wanting Kyrie gone from Cleveland:

#NotFactspeople! Boooooo!! Get another source.#enjoyingmysummer

Could it be the media is fueling this fire a little more than what actually exists? A down time for sports, create controversy, get people debating and clicking? Interesting that I'm yet to hear a direct quote from Kyrie OR Lebron on this matter. Kyrie is trying to make the smartest career choice for himself as he knows Lebron is gone after one year. Absolutely nothing wrong with that. He hasn't smeared Lebron in the least. Don't let the media twist this into something it's not!

Not the media! No way they would ever make up something to stir up a situation. Not the honest, honorable press. 😡😠👿

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

Maybe. One think LeBron needs is another true number 1 option on offense to take the load off when the others are not adding anything.

To put it another way, LeBron would not let rumors fly that he wants to beat up KI (real mature, Bron Bron) if he thought the Cavs would improve by trading Kyrie.

I would suggest that be definition, you can't have two "true number one options," on the same team.

[vick]

He believes he's a top 10 player (debatable, but you can't fault him for believing it), and yet has only made All-NBA 3rd team once. Isaiah Thomas made 2nd team last season. John Wall and DeMar DeRozan were 3rd team. Damian Lillard was 2nd team last year, and Kyle Lowry made 3rd team. You might say it's because his defense is terrible. It absolutely is. But Isaiah Thomas, Damian Lillard, and Russell Westbrook are all just as bad, yet they are considered All-NBA and Kyrie is not. In my opinion, he's better than all those guys (other than Westbrook), and yet voters don't even think of him when it comes to All-NBA. Why? Because LeBron is on his team. Kyrie will never get the credit he deserves because LeBron is on his team. He saw Westbrook get his own team this year and become 1st Team All-NBA and the MVP. Right or wrong, Kyrie wants to get out of LeBron's shadow.

I agree with a lot of what you say (particularly that the rings obsession among some has become crazy). I would push back on the All-NBA recognition question though. LeBron's shadow didn't prevent Wade from rightly being awarded all-NBA in 2011, 2012, and 2013. The difference is, Wade's regular season performance deserved that level of recognition, and Kyrie's didn't.

[kAzE]

I agree with a lot of what you say (particularly that the rings obsession among some has become crazy). I would push back on the All-NBA recognition question though. LeBron's shadow didn't prevent Wade from rightly being awarded all-NBA in 2011, 2012, and 2013. The difference is, Wade's regular season performance deserved that level of recognition, and Kyrie's didn't.

I think the difference with Wade is that he was just a better all-around player than Kyrie. Even the most die hard Kyrie fans would not dispute that. When LeBron joined the Heat in 2010, in my opinion, Wade was the 3rd best player in the league, behind only LeBron and Kobe. Kyrie is a borderline top 15 player, so his All-NBA inclusion is more in question.

Regardless, going back to my post, do you think Isaiah Thomas or Damian Lillard are demonstrably better players than Kyrie Irving? Because both of those guys have now been All-NBA 2nd team, which is something Kyrie has never achieved.

[vick]

I think the difference with Wade is that he was just a better all-around player than Kyrie. Even the most die hard Kyrie fans would not dispute that. When LeBron joined the Heat in 2010, in my opinion, Wade was the 3rd best player in the league, behind only LeBron and Kobe. Kyrie is a borderline top 15 player, so his All-NBA inclusion is more in question.

Regardless, going back to my post, do you think Isaiah Thomas or Damian Lillard are demonstrably better players than Kyrie Irving? Because both of those guys have now been All-NBA 2nd team, which is something Kyrie has never achieved.

I think he's in the same basic tier and wouldn't really venture a strong opinion either way. At his peak, Kyrie can outplay either, but he's never shown the ability to maintain that level of performance for 82 games (or even for a full playoff series, as shown earlier in this thread).

[kAzE]

I think he's in the same basic tier and wouldn't really venture a strong opinion either way. At his peak, Kyrie can outplay either, but he's never shown the ability to maintain that level of performance for 82 games (or even for a full playoff series, as shown earlier in this thread).

Right, it's pretty debatable. I'd probably say Kyrie has the highest ceiling of those guys, but it's not clear in a black and white way that any of them are significantly better or worse. Kyrie clearly thinks he's better (or at the very least, equal), so it's easy to understand how watching those guys get these accolades over him could be frustrating. That's all I meant by that portion of my post.

[subzero02]

I think he's in the same basic tier and wouldn't really venture a strong opinion either way. At his peak, Kyrie can outplay either, but he's never shown the ability to maintain that level of performance for 82 games (or even for a full playoff series, as shown earlier in this thread).

I don't think any NBA gm would take Thomas over Irving. While Irving's defense is flawed due to a lack of consistent effort, Thomas has proven to be an even greater defensive liability during playoff basketball.

[DukeTrinity11]

Right, it's pretty debatable. I'd probably say Kyrie has the highest ceiling of those guys, but it's not clear in a black and white way that any of them are significantly better or worse. Kyrie clearly thinks he's better (or at the very least, equal), so it's easy to understand how watching those guys get these accolades over him could be frustrating. That's all I meant by that portion of my post.
I do think that Kyrie is a better player than Isaiah, Lillard, Kemba and Lowry. I don't use regular season advanced stats as a point of reference in this case because its well known that the Cavs "don't try" in the regular season and that laid back attitude that Lebron has during the regular season is infectious and spreads to the rest of his Cavs teammates, most notably Irving, so they don't play up to their true ability.

Based on my eye test during the playoffs, I would divide the prominent point guards into the following tiers:

Tier 1
Chris Paul
Russell Westbrook
Stephen Curry

Tier 2
John Wall
Kyrie Irving

Tier 3
Mike Conley
Damian Lillard
Isaiah Thomas
Kyle Lowry
Kemba Walker

Tier 4
George Hill
Eric Bledsoe
Jeff Teague
Jrue Holiday
Ricky Rubio

[dudog84]

From behind my Duke Blue glasses...

Kyrie asked for the trade because LeBron won't commit to the Cavs and will almost assuredly leave after next year, which would leave Kyrie in a terrible situation. But he didn't want to say that to the front office because (a/b) he's a good guy and didn't want to throw shade at LeBron/he knew it would get back to and anger LeBron (2 sides of same coin). So he says some version of wanting to be The Man on his own team, which gets back to/angers Lebron and is leaked. I am in awe of LeBron's abilities on the court but have never been a big fan.

If Kyrie was all about the money he would suck it up and sign a supermax deal in 2 years (as I understand it). If he was all about the rings his best chance is probably with LeBron for one more year (although I think the Celtics will give the Cavs a much better run next year...and they still won't beat the Warriors). Maybe he just wants to be happy and isn't in Cleveland (and he already has plenty of money and a ring).

Was it the right move? Who knows, time may tell. But it's Kyrie's life and career, let him live it.

[vick]

I don't think any NBA gm would take Thomas over Irving. While Irving's defense is flawed due to a lack of consistent effort, Thomas has proven to be an even greater defensive liability during playoff basketball.

FWIW, I wouldn't take Thomas over Irving either, as Irving clearly has more upside.

I think you can overweight Irving's playoff defensive improvement, though. There were basically three teams last year--the Warriors, the Spurs, and the Cavs--that were realistically good enough to not worry about the regular season at all. It's one thing to rest when you are LeBron, Duncan, etc.. There's no guarantee--in fact it's relatively unlikely--Irving's going to be in a place where the team isn't concerned about the regular season. His poor defensive effort during the season is a legit issue.

[superdave]

I do think that Kyrie is a better player than Isaiah, Lillard, Kemba and Lowry. I don't use regular season advanced stats as a point of reference in this case because its well known that the Cavs "don't try" in the regular season and that laid back attitude that Lebron has during the regular season is infectious and spreads to the rest of his Cavs teammates, most notably Irving, so they don't play up to their true ability.

Based on my eye test during the playoffs, I would divide the prominent point guards into the following tiers:

Tier 1
Chris Paul
Russell Westbrook
Stephen Curry

Tier 2
John Wall
Kyrie Irving

Tier 3
Mike Conley
Damian Lillard
Isaiah Thomas
Kyle Lowry
Kemba Walker

Tier 4
George Hill
Eric Bledsoe
Jeff Teague
Jrue Holiday
Ricky Rubio



Kyrie and Shumpert for Mike Conley and a future 1st round pick: http://www.espn.com/nba/tradeMachine?tradeId=yab9lod7

Cleveland can dump Shumpert's deal and still contend for 2018.

Conley averaged 21 and 6, 41% from 3. He's 29 and under contract through 2021 (age 34 at the end). Kyrie can go be the man on a .500 team.

Otherwise, you are looking at funky 3-team trades.

[CDu]

Kyrie and Shumpert for Mike Conley and a future 1st round pick: http://www.espn.com/nba/tradeMachine?tradeId=yab9lod7

Cleveland can dump Shumpert's deal and still contend for 2018.

Conley averaged 21 and 6, 41% from 3. He's 29 and under contract through 2021 (age 34 at the end). Kyrie can go be the man on a .500 team.

Otherwise, you are looking at funky 3-team trades.

Or trades to bad teams with draft picks and cap space.

[cato]

I would suggest that be definition, you can't have two "true number one options," on the same team.

Well, not at the same time on the same team. But KD is unquestionably a true number one scoring option. So is Steph. They are now on the same team, but each retains the ability to take over any given game.

[JNort]

Well, not at the same time on the same team. But KD is unquestionably a true number one scoring option. So is Steph. They are now on the same team, but each retains the ability to take over any given game.

So was Russ and KD and now Russ and PG13. Heck probably the best duo ever Shaq and Kobe

[JNort]

Well based on my eye test it's:

Tier 1
Chris Paul
Russell Westbrook
Stephen Curry
John Wall

Tier 2
James Harden
Kyrie Irving

Tier 3
Mike Conley
Eric Bledsoe
Kyle Lowry


Tier 4
Damian Lillard
Kemba Walker
Isaiah Thomas


Tier 5
George Hill
Derrick Rose
Jeff Teague
Jrue Holiday
Ricky Rubio

[nmduke2001]

Any trade that would include Bledsoe without getting Kyrie to Phoenix is likely out. Brandon Knight out for the season with torn acl. Maybe a landing spot for Quinn?

[cato]

So was Russ and KD and now Russ and PG13. Heck probably the best duo ever Shaq and Kobe

What about Russ, Harden and KD? I never understood why that got broken up.

[CDu]

What about Russ, Harden and KD? I never understood why that got broken up.

OKC got nervous about paying Harden with Westbrook and Durant, so they dealt him preemptively. Talk about your all-time bad calls.

[subzero02]

Apparently Kyrie has unfollowed LeBron on twitter.... we are through the looking glass now.

[Indoor66]

Apparently Kyrie has unfollowed LeBron on twitter... we are through the looking glass now.

The ULTIMATE insult! LOL

[DukeTrinity11]

The ULTIMATE insult! LOL
Apparently he unfollowed him on Instagram early yesterday too. Wow!

[kAzE]

Well based on my eye test it's:

Tier 1
John Wall

Tier 2
Kyrie Irving


I've heard a pretty good amount of debate over where these 2 fall in the pecking order, but I'm pretty firmly on team Kyrie when it comes to these two. My main argument for Kyrie is this:

John Wall career playoffs stats (31 games):

21.1 points
9.5 assists
4.0 rebounds
3.8 turnovers
41.4% FG%
28.3% 3FG%
81.5% FT%

Kyrie Irving career playoff stats (52 games):

23.9 points
4.7 assists
3.1 rebounds
2.2 turnovers
46.5% FG%
41.5% 3FG%
87.6% FT%

How about the 2017 playoffs, against the same team (Boston Celtics), being guarded by the same guy (Avery Bradley)?

Kyrie: 25.8 points, 5.4 assists, 2.0 rebounds, 3.0 turnovers, 62.2% FG%, 50% 3FG%
Wall: 25.1 points, 10.3 assists, 3.4 rebounds, 4.0 turnovers, 39.8% FG%, 28.6% 3FG%

Playoff basketball slows the game down, meaning more half court possessions, and far fewer fast break opportunities than in regular season basketball. How do these guys compare when it comes to points per possession in the halfcourt over their careers thus far?

Kyrie: 1.2 PPP in halfcourt
Wall: 0.7 PPP in halfcourt

Wall is clearly a better facilitator, slightly better defender, and more dangerous in the open court, but I'll happily take Kyrie's incredible efficiency over Wall's assists any day. More importantly, Wall plays worse in the postseason than in the regular season, while Kyrie's number actually improve. You can maybe talk me into putting them in the same tier, but Wall ahead of Kyrie on any tier list doesn't make sense to me.

[Indoor66]

Apparently he unfollowed him on Instagram early yesterday too. Wow!

I DoubleDamnDare you to do that on Facebook. What a joke is this social media and the reactions to it. What difference does it make?

[drummerdevil]

Well based on my eye test it's:

Tier 1
John Wall

Tier 2
James Harden

Tier 3
Eric Bledsoe


Tier 4
Damian Lillard
Kemba Walker
Isaiah Thomas



I have to disagree with a couple of these. James Harden was an MVP candidate and John Wall wasn't for a reason. Yet you have ranked Wall ahead of Harden. I also have to disagree with the Bledsoe ranking. You are ranking him above Damian Lillard, Kemba Walker, and Isaiah Thomas. The three guys in tier 4 were clearly the first scoring option on their teams, whereas Bledsoe was not. Those three indisputably led their teams, whereas Bledsoe arguably did not. Also, Lillard and Thomas made the playoffs, whereas Bledsoe did not.

My biggest issue is with IT4. He was fifth in MVP voting this year, yet you have placed him behind someone who wasn't an all star. Sorry, but I don't think that your ranking is correct, and I don't think I stand alone here.

[CDu]

I have to disagree with a couple of these. James Harden was an MVP candidate and John Wall wasn't for a reason. Yet you have ranked Wall ahead of Harden. I also have to disagree with the Bledsoe ranking. You are ranking him above Damian Lillard, Kemba Walker, and Isaiah Thomas. The three guys in tier 4 were clearly the first scoring option on their teams, whereas Bledsoe was not. Those three indisputably led their teams, whereas Bledsoe arguably did not. Also, Lillard and Thomas made the playoffs, whereas Bledsoe did not.

My biggest issue is with IT4. He was fifth in MVP voting this year, yet you have placed him behind someone who wasn't an all star. Sorry, but I don't think that your ranking is correct, and I don't think I stand alone here.

Thomas is sort of a more extreme version of Irving: phenomenal offensive talent but awful defender. In fact, Thomas might be better offensively than Irving (he certainly was this year, but quietly he's always been on par with or better than Irving offensively). But he's probably worse defensively as well. Or at least as bad.

If you ignore his defense, Thomas is an All-NBA guy. And, essentially, that's what voters did. I don't think he was the fifth best player this year. But I agree he shouldn't be in tier 4 either.

[Matches]

I'm glad I'm not the guy whose job it is to keep track of which athletes unfollow which other athletes on Instagram.

[Mabdul Doobakus]

Well based on my eye test it's:

Tier 1
Chris Paul
Russell Westbrook
Stephen Curry
John Wall

Tier 2
James Harden
Kyrie Irving

Tier 3
Mike Conley
Eric Bledsoe
Kyle Lowry


Tier 4
Damian Lillard
Kemba Walker
Isaiah Thomas


Tier 5
George Hill
Derrick Rose
Jeff Teague
Jrue Holiday
Ricky Rubio

Can we put Goran Dragic in a tier? This may be my inner Miami Heat fan talking here, but I'd take him over any of those Tier 5 guys. His PER was 12th among PGs last year.

[Fish80]

Can we put Goran Dragic in a tier?.

No. We can't.

[MartyClark]

Good luck to Kyrie. The media obsession with the alleged spat between Kyrie and LeBron is amusing.

Blowhard Stephen Smith called in to blowhard Dan LeBatard's show today to complain about LeBatard's evaluation of Smith's role in the media frenzy. Some call it journalism but I think it's junior high level gossip and petty disputes.

[DukeTrinity11]

Thomas is sort of a more extreme version of Irving: phenomenal offensive talent but awful defender. In fact, Thomas might be better offensively than Irving (he certainly was this year, but quietly he's always been on par with or better than Irving offensively). But he's probably worse defensively as well. Or at least as bad.

If you ignore his defense, Thomas is an All-NBA guy. And, essentially, that's what voters did. I don't think he was the fifth best player this year. But I agree he shouldn't be in tier 4 either.

Isaiah Thomas career playoffs stats (25 games):

22.6 points
6.3 assists
3.1 rebounds
3.1 turnovers
40.6% FG%
30.2% 3FG%
84.2% FT%
46.5% eFG%

Kyrie Irving career playoff stats (52 games):

23.9 points
4.7 assists
3.1 rebounds
2.2 turnovers
46.5% FG%
41.5% 3FG%
87.6% FT%
52.8% eFG%

Thomas is definitely at least a Tier 3 guy but he's no KI offensively.

Again, I firmly believe that Irving is the 3rd best offensive player in the NBA after Steph Curry and Kevin Durant.

[Jeffrey]

Again, I firmly believe that Irving is the 3rd best offensive player in the NBA after Steph Curry and Kevin Durant.

I'd take LeBron before KI. If LeBron really wants to score, good luck stopping him.

[drummerdevil]

You're stuck in 2010. If 2017 LeBron was a better scorer than Kyrie, Kyrie wouldn't be the Cavs' closer. LeBron's shooting is extremely streaky/unreliable and he's pretty mediocre at the free throw line.

Kyrie is a better scorer than LeBron. Hands down. You might be the only one here who thinks otherwise.

I would say they're about equal. They're just different. Kyrie has handles, is craftier, and a better shooter. However, not many can stop LeBron if he's driving at you full speed.

[CDu]

Isaiah Thomas career playoffs stats (25 games):

22.6 points
6.3 assists
3.1 rebounds
3.1 turnovers
40.6% FG%
30.2% 3FG%
84.2% FT%
46.5% eFG%

Kyrie Irving career playoff stats (52 games):

23.9 points
4.7 assists
3.1 rebounds
2.2 turnovers
46.5% FG%
41.5% 3FG%
87.6% FT%
52.8% eFG%

Thomas is definitely at least a Tier 3 guy but he's no KI offensively.

Again, I firmly believe that Irving is the 3rd best offensive player in the NBA after Steph Curry and Kevin Durant.

Thomas has a higher TS%, higher win shares/48, higher OBM and BPM, and ORPM, both in the regular season and postseason. And that is despite having to carry his team's offense, whereas Irving gets nowhere near the same defensive pressure playing next to LeBron.

And no, Irving is most certainly not the third best offensively player in the game. Not even close. He isn't even the third best scorer in the game, and that is the only thing he gives at an even above-average level.

[Billy Dat]

From behind my Duke Blue glasses...

Kyrie asked for the trade because LeBron won't commit to the Cavs and will almost assuredly leave after next year, which would leave Kyrie in a terrible situation. But he didn't want to say that to the front office because (a/b) he's a good guy and didn't want to throw shade at LeBron/he knew it would get back to and anger LeBron (2 sides of same coin). So he says some version of wanting to be The Man on his own team, which gets back to/angers Lebron and is leaked. I am in awe of LeBron's abilities on the court but have never been a big fan.

If Kyrie was all about the money he would suck it up and sign a supermax deal in 2 years (as I understand it). If he was all about the rings his best chance is probably with LeBron for one more year (although I think the Celtics will give the Cavs a much better run next year...and they still won't beat the Warriors). Maybe he just wants to be happy and isn't in Cleveland (and he already has plenty of money and a ring).

Was it the right move? Who knows, time may tell. But it's Kyrie's life and career, let him live it.

It's been really interesting to follow the various theories as to why Kyrie had this sit down with Cavs ownership. Each day that passes, more pundits are sharing theories which are informed by people the know on the inside of these organizations - the Cavs, the Lebrons, the Kyries...and each is, no question, a multi-person organization. I'm not a businessman, I'm a BUSINESS, man.

The best theory I have heard is that if Lebron is a teacher, then Kyrie is a great student. He sees how Lebron the off-court chessmaster manipulates the environment to his own ends and decided to pull his own power move. Perhaps it was fueled by his finding out that he was being included in trade talks, perhaps it was his failure to make All NBA and his perception that being in Bron's shadow is the reason, mostly I think it is because he think's he's as good as anyone in the league and wants the ball in his hands more to show just that (ignoring the other side of the ball). The talk of him being close to Kobe and wanting to be like Kobe (again, ignoring defense) adds interesting depth to the idea. Musecage!

There's also a lot of talk about him wanting a stable organization in terms of ownership/front office alignment and culture, that seems to be where the Miami, San Antonio, Utah talk originated. The Knicks talk can only be about the market.

There's a lot of speculation that his playmaking for others has been stunted by Lebron playing that role, that he has passing skills ready to be unleashed (when he's not pounding the ball trying to amaze with breakdown moves)

Kyrie is still young, young enough to have another chapter or two...but he's got to play D.

[JNort]

I've heard a pretty good amount of debate over where these 2 fall in the pecking order, but I'm pretty firmly on team Kyrie when it comes to these two. My main argument for Kyrie is this:

John Wall career playoffs stats (31 games):

21.1 points
9.5 assists
4.0 rebounds
3.8 turnovers
41.4% FG%
28.3% 3FG%
81.5% FT%

Kyrie Irving career playoff stats (52 games):

23.9 points
4.7 assists
3.1 rebounds
2.2 turnovers
46.5% FG%
41.5% 3FG%
87.6% FT%

How about the 2017 playoffs, against the same team (Boston Celtics), being guarded by the same guy (Avery Bradley)?

Kyrie: 25.8 points, 5.4 assists, 2.0 rebounds, 3.0 turnovers, 62.2% FG%, 50% 3FG%
Wall: 25.1 points, 10.3 assists, 3.4 rebounds, 4.0 turnovers, 39.8% FG%, 28.6% 3FG%

Playoff basketball slows the game down, meaning more half court possessions, and far fewer fast break opportunities than in regular season basketball. How do these guys compare when it comes to points per possession in the halfcourt over their careers thus far?

Kyrie: 1.2 PPP in halfcourt
Wall: 0.7 PPP in halfcourt

Wall is clearly a better facilitator, slightly better defender, and more dangerous in the open court, but I'll happily take Kyrie's incredible efficiency over Wall's assists any day. More importantly, Wall plays worse in the postseason than in the regular season, while Kyrie's number actually improve. You can maybe talk me into putting them in the same tier, but Wall ahead of Kyrie on any tier list doesn't make sense to me.


You are valuing scoring way too much imo. Wall is among the best at pg on defense and and also at distributing the ball. He is also a good rebounder and leads the league in blocks at pg. Wall also hasn't had the teammates Kyrie has had. You're also under selling how bad Kyrie is on defense.

[JNort]

Can we put Goran Dragic in a tier? This may be my inner Miami Heat fan talking here, but I'd take him over any of those Tier 5 guys. His PER was 12th among PGs last year.

Yeah I would have and I knew I was forgetting someone but couldn't remember who.

[JNort]

I have to disagree with a couple of these. James Harden was an MVP candidate and John Wall wasn't for a reason. Yet you have ranked Wall ahead of Harden. I also have to disagree with the Bledsoe ranking. You are ranking him above Damian Lillard, Kemba Walker, and Isaiah Thomas. The three guys in tier 4 were clearly the first scoring option on their teams, whereas Bledsoe was not. Those three indisputably led their teams, whereas Bledsoe arguably did not. Also, Lillard and Thomas made the playoffs, whereas Bledsoe did not.

My biggest issue is with IT4. He was fifth in MVP voting this year, yet you have placed him behind someone who wasn't an all star. Sorry, but I don't think that your ranking is correct, and I don't think I stand alone here.

I went off of what I value at pg combined with situation and talent around them. Hardens defense is so bad it drops him down a tier as it does with Kyrie for me. Harden also has a turnover problem.

Bledsoe I think is in the appropriate spot but we haven't got to see him as much as we should due to injuries and his awful team so he gets under appreciated.

I got near 0 respect for IT4, Kemba and Lillard all of whom I would never want on my team. Unfortunately my team does have Kemba :( and its dreadful.


If I had to make a team I would want one of the 3 guys I had in tier 3, Wall or Curry.

[JasonEvans]

So, ya'll are saying that the best player on my hometown Atlanta Hawks (Denis Schroeder) is, at best, in the bottom half of NBA starters at his position. Do I have that right?

-Jason "the Hawks better get a top 3 pick next season... grrrr" Evans

[devilsince1977]

So, ya'll are saying that the best player on my hometown Atlanta Hawks (Denis Schroeder) is, at best, in the bottom half of NBA starters at his position. Do I have that right?

-Jason "the Hawks better get a top 3 pick next season... grrrr" Evans

I was wondering where Schroeder was also.

I also think you can ask the questions: Would Cleveland be better with Wall? I think not. Would Washington be better with KI? Probably not. Good teams are built by matching complementary players.

[CDu]

So, ya'll are saying that the best player on my hometown Atlanta Hawks (Denis Schroeder) is, at best, in the bottom half of NBA starters at his position. Do I have that right?

-Jason "the Hawks better get a top 3 pick next season... grrrr" Evans

Sadly as a Bulls fan, I would probably put the 23 year old Schroder ahead of Rose in tier 5. But, yeah, he is still probably in the bottom half of the league among PGs.

But hey, it could be worse. The Bulls have three or four bodies attempting to fill the position, but they don't have a PG in the top-40.

[darthur]

I got near 0 respect for IT4, Kemba and Lillard all of whom I would never want on my team. Unfortunately my team does have Kemba :( and its dreadful.

Why? I don't watch the east coast teams as much, but I'm a big fan of the two Portland guards.

[sagegrouse]

Here's a story that says so (http://bleacherreport.com/articles/2724159-kyrie-irving-reportedly-wants-trade-to-new-york-knicks-very-badly?utm_source=twitter.com&utm_medium=referral&utm_campaign=programming-national).

Of course, I am not sure Kyrie has much say in where he goes.

[subzero02]

Here's a story that says so (http://bleacherreport.com/articles/2724159-kyrie-irving-reportedly-wants-trade-to-new-york-knicks-very-badly?utm_source=twitter.com&utm_medium=referral&utm_campaign=programming-national).

Of course, I am not sure Kyrie has much say in where he goes.

If he can win there... he can win anywhere...

[sagegrouse]

Story by Adrian Wojnaworski (http://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/20177155/kyrie-irving-trade-talks-show-how-much-teams-including-cleveland-cavaliers-value-him)on the Kyrie sweepstakes. Interesting perspectives and some data.

Substantive paragraph (Fair Use only, of course):

So far, these are among the teams who've made offers to the Cavaliers for Irving, league sources tell ESPN: The San Antonio Spurs, LA Clippers, Phoenix Suns, Minnesota Timberwolves, New York Knicks and Miami Heat. There were approximately 20 teams that inquired with Cleveland upon the news of Irving's trade request, league sources said, but far fewer have registered legitimate proposals. More loom in the shadows, and many interested simply don't have the assets to make a deal happen.

Marred, however, by this sentence: "Irving is the most unique player to reach the trade market in years." Aaargghhh!!! Unique means "one and only;" how could there be a "most one and only?"

[gus]

If he can win there... he can win anywhere...

The last time the Knicks won the title, Irving was 7. Maybe they're due.




(Drederick Irving I mean)

[atoomer0881]

The last time the Knicks won the title, Irving was 7. Maybe they're due.




(Drederick Irving I mean)

And the last time the Knicks were even in the Finals was back in 1999... when Kyrie was 7. Hmmm interesting.

[mph]

Marred, however, by this sentence: "Irving is the most unique player to reach the trade market in years." Aaargghhh!!! Unique means "one and only;" how could there be a "most one and only?"

The OED provides a more complete picture :p: "Words like unique have a core sense but they often also have a secondary, less precise sense: in this case, the meaning ‘very remarkable or unusual’, as in a really unique opportunity. In its secondary sense, unique does not relate to an absolute concept, and so the use of submodifying adverbs is grammatically acceptable."

[CDu]

The OED provides a more complete picture :p: "Words like unique have a core sense but they often also have a secondary, less precise sense: in this case, the meaning ‘very remarkable or unusual’, as in a really unique opportunity. In its secondary sense, unique does not relate to an absolute concept, and so the use of submodifying adverbs is grammatically acceptable."

In other words, we live in a world of gray, not black and white. "Most unique" just means there are fewer players similar to him than any other player. In a probabilistic sense, he's the most likely to have nobody the same as him.

[sagegrouse]

The OED provides a more complete picture :p: "Words like unique have a core sense but they often also have a secondary, less precise sense: in this case, the meaning ‘very remarkable or unusual’, as in a really unique opportunity. In its secondary sense, unique does not relate to an absolute concept, and so the use of submodifying adverbs is grammatically acceptable."

How dare you question my grammatical nit-picking!! Why else would I come to this Board? And citing the Oxford English Dictionary? "The OED is the definitive record of the English language, featuring 600,000 words, 3 million quotations, and over 1,000 years of English." Is this using a nuclear weapon against an insect -- or better, a helpless grouse? Anyway, thanks for finding this -- from a usage perspective, I find "most unique" to be horribly grating. For years I worked to stop our sales team from using this and other terms that meant nothing.

[rasputin]

How dare you question my grammatical nit-picking!! Why else would I come to this Board? And citing the Oxford English Dictionary? "The OED is the definitive record of the English language, featuring 600,000 words, 3 million quotations, and over 1,000 years of English." Is this using a nuclear weapon against an insect -- or better, a helpless grouse? Anyway, thanks for finding this -- from a usage perspective, I find "most unique" to be horribly grating. For years I worked to stop our sales team from using this and other terms that meant nothing.

Literally.

[BD80]

Story by Adrian Wojnaworski (http://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/20177155/kyrie-irving-trade-talks-show-how-much-teams-including-cleveland-cavaliers-value-him)on the Kyrie sweepstakes. Interesting perspectives and some data. ...

The Heat are willing to dispense Justise:

https://www.cbssports.com/nba/news/report-heat-willing-to-part-with-goran-dragic-justise-winslow-for-kyrie-irving/

[BD80]

I was wondering where Schroeder was also. ...

Is he the guy with the cat?

Or the cartoon kid that plays piano?

[GGLC]

I got near 0 respect for IT4, Kemba and Lillard all of whom I would never want on my team. Unfortunately my team does have Kemba :( and its dreadful.


What? Dame is fricking awesome. And a huge character guy and leader behind the scenes, too. Your loss.

[atoomer0881]

I got near 0 respect for IT4, Kemba and Lillard all of whom I would never want on my team. Unfortunately my team does have Kemba :( and its dreadful.


What? Dame is fricking awesome. And a huge character guy and leader behind the scenes, too. Your loss.

I was wondering the same thing. It's one thing to think that IT4, Kemba, and Lillard aren't talented (in comparison to other guards). But the 0 respect part? I don't get that at all. From what I've seen all 3 of those guys seem to be high character guys.

[Edouble]

Story by Adrian Wojnaworski (http://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/20177155/kyrie-irving-trade-talks-show-how-much-teams-including-cleveland-cavaliers-value-him)on the Kyrie sweepstakes. Interesting perspectives and some data.

Substantive paragraph (Fair Use only, of course):


Marred, however, by this sentence: "Irving is the most unique player to reach the trade market in years." Aaargghhh!!! Unique means "one and only;" how could there be a "most one and only?"


In other words, we live in a world of gray, not black and white. "Most unique" just means there are fewer players similar to him than any other player. In a probabilistic sense, he's the most likely to have nobody the same as him.

Sage is 100% correct.

The highest authority on proper usage is still Strunk and White's The Elements of Style, which states in the chapter on Misused Words and Expressions, on page 62:

"Unique. Means 'without like or equal.' Hence, there can be no degrees of uniqueness."

[Acymetric]

Sage is 100% correct.

The highest authority on proper usage is still Strunk and White's The Elements of Style, which states in the chapter on Misused Words and Expressions, on page 62:

"Unique. Means 'without like or equal.' Hence, there can be no degrees of uniqueness."

It would seem that usage would render the term almost impossible to use accurately (and in most cases would be subjective for both the communicator and the audience as to whether something can really be considered unique). What would be the correct way to say what is intended when someone refers to qualified degrees of uniqueness?

[Troublemaker]

It would seem that usage would render the term almost impossible to use accurately (and in most cases would be subjective for both the communicator and the audience as to whether something can really be considered unique). What would be the correct way to say what is intended when someone refers to qualified degrees of uniqueness?

I would just change terms at that point. Kyrie has one of the most distinctive games to come on the trade market in some time...

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

How dare you question my grammatical nit-picking!! Why else would I come to this Board? And citing the Oxford English Dictionary? "The OED is the definitive record of the English language, featuring 600,000 words, 3 million quotations, and over 1,000 years of English." Is this using a nuclear weapon against an insect -- or better, a helpless grouse? Anyway, thanks for finding this -- from a usage perspective, I find "most unique" to be horribly grating. For years I worked to stop our sales team from using this and other terms that meant nothing.

Truly a case of a pedant calling a pedant a pedant. We are through the looking glass. This must be the nadir of the off-season.

[budwom]

Sage is 100% correct.

The highest authority on proper usage is still Strunk and White's The Elements of Style, which states in the chapter on Misused Words and Expressions, on page 62:

"Unique. Means 'without like or equal.' Hence, there can be no degrees of uniqueness."

Regrettably, I've had an ace linguist (college prof) explain to me that when words are used or misused frequently enough, they become acceptable...e.g. irregardless, a hideous non-word, has achieved word-dom because
enough people have (mis)used it.

[Acymetric]

Regrettably, I've had an ace linguist (college prof) explain to me that when words are used or misused frequently enough, they become acceptable...e.g. irregardless, a hideous non-word, has achieved word-dom because
enough people have (mis)used it.

I feel differently about variation in usage than about bad made up words...irregardless is terrible. But let's get this conversation about Kyrie untracked, shall we? ;)

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

Regrettably, I've had an ace linguist (college prof) explain to me that when words are used or misused frequently enough, they become acceptable...e.g. irregardless, a hideous non-word, has achieved word-dom because
enough people have (mis)used it.

"Word Domination" sounds like the goal of a librarian Bond villain.

[mph]

The highest authority on proper usage is still Strunk and White's The Elements of Style...

Depends on who you ask.

Geoffrey Pullum, head of linguistics and English language at the University of Edinburgh and co-author of The Cambridge Grammar of the English Language, wrote the following in his 2009 article, 50 years of Stupid Grammar Advice (http://www.lel.ed.ac.uk/~gpullum/50years.pdf):


So I won't be spending the month of April toasting 50 years of the overopinionated and underinformed little book that put so many people in this unhappy state of grammatical angst. I've spent too much of my scholarly life studying English grammar in a serious way. English syntax is a deep and interesting subject. It is much too important to be reduced to a bunch of trivial don't-do-this prescriptions by a pair of idiosyncratic bumblers who can't even tell when they've broken their own misbegotten rules.

Linguistic shots fired!

[Indoor66]

Sage is 100% correct.

The highest authority on proper usage is still Strunk and White's The Elements of Style, which states in the chapter on Misused Words and Expressions, on page 62:

"Unique. Means 'without like or equal.' Hence, there can be no degrees of uniqueness."

That is the most unique definition I have ever seen. :o:p:cool:

[NSDukeFan]

That is the most unique definition I have ever seen. :o:p:cool:

Or at least one of.

[JNort]

Why? I don't watch the east coast teams as much, but I'm a big fan of the two Portland guards.

I just don't value the play style at all for a pg unless you can take it to a whole other lvl like Russ has.


What? Dame is fricking awesome. And a huge character guy and leader behind the scenes, too. Your loss.


I was wondering the same thing. It's one thing to think that IT4, Kemba, and Lillard aren't talented (in comparison to other guards). But the 0 respect part? I don't get that at all. From what I've seen all 3 of those guys seem to be high character guys.

Not sure why y'all both referenced their characters in a conversation that has nothing to do with character and all about talent. All 3 of those guys imo just bring nothing of real value to their teams and all 3 teams would be better trading them and building around someone else.

Now granted their play styles are among the most highlight worthy and fun to watch but I don't want them leading my team.

[darthur]

I just don't value the play style at all for a pg unless you can take it to a whole other lvl like Russ has.

I think Lillard is much closer to Steph's game than Russ's game personally.

Perhaps we'll just have to agree to disagree on him but after 2015, the Blazers lost 4 of 5 starters with Lillard being their only returning starter and their only returning double-digit scorer. Pretty much nobody expected them to make the playoffs, but they did so comfortably and even beat the Clippers (aided by injury, but the series was neck-and-neck before the injuries). This year, they were pretty awful to start the season but again finished very strong and made the playoffs: 18-8 after the all-star break. Portland is not an elite team but they are quite solid and they really have no star power at all outside Lillard+McCollum. I think they would be nowhere near as good without Lillard.

[Neals384]

The OED provides a more complete picture :p: "Words like unique have a core sense but they often also have a secondary, less precise sense: in this case, the meaning ‘very remarkable or unusual’, as in a really unique opportunity. In its secondary sense, unique does not relate t o an absolute concept, and so the use of submodifying adverbs is grammatically acceptable."

Continuing the OT thread...fans of the OED will enjoy Simon Winchester's wonderful The Professor and the Madman. The book, that is. Movie due out soon.

[GGLC]

I just don't value the play style at all for a pg unless you can take it to a whole other lvl like Russ has.





Not sure why y'all both referenced their characters in a conversation that has nothing to do with character and all about talent. All 3 of those guys imo just bring nothing of real value to their teams and all 3 teams would be better trading them and building around someone else.

Now granted their play styles are among the most highlight worthy and fun to watch but I don't want them leading my team.

I think this is a ridiculous post and that you don't have an accurate understanding of how Damian Lillard plays or the contribution he makes on and off the court.

And I referenced character because "respect" connotes a value judgment. As does saying that he brings nothing of real value to his team. I'll keep Lillard for the Blazers, thanks.

[GGLC]

...Meanwhile, Dame has averaged 10 win shares per year and a 4.2 VORP the last four seasons.

Significantly more than Kyrie (who I love) in both cases.

No value, indeed.

[cspan37421]

Continuing the OT thread...fans of the OED will enjoy Simon Winchester's wonderful The Professor and the Madman. The book, that is. Movie due out soon.

AKA The Surgeon of Crowthorne. BTW, are you serious about the movie?