Grayson Allen points chase: to 2000 and beyond

[CDu]

I didn't expect to get to post this thread, but Grayson Allen returned for his senior year. So here we are: another exciting countdown opportunity!

Allen has 1424 career points. He is 576 away from 2000. If we play 33 games, he will need to average 17.5 ppg to get there. More games, less ppg needed obviously.

Interestingly, Scheyer currently sits at #10 on Duke's career scoring list with 2077, and Banks and JWill are just ahead at 2079.

So Allen is 653 away from Duke's top-10. A 33-game season would require 19.8 ppg to make it into the top 10.

At the ceiling? G-Man is out of reach at #5 with 2323. But Ferry sits at #6 with 2155. So Allen would need 732 to pass him. A 33-game season would require a 22.2 ppg average. But a 40-game season would only require an 18.3 ppg average.

Bottom line: if he stays healthy and incident-free, Allen stands a REALLY good chance of reaching the 2000 point club. If he does those things AND Duke plays well, Allen has has the chance to pass some pretty impressive names in Duke history too.

[superdave]

Duke has played 37, 36 and 39 games the last three seasons.

Assuming 37 games, GA would need to average 15.57 ppg to get to 2000. He averaged 14.5 last year in an injury/controversy riddled season.

Perhaps we get a poll going to see if people thinks he falls short of or surpasses Scheyer's 2077 mark. I'd say that's a 50/50 proposition.

[CDu]

Duke has played 37, 36 and 39 games the last three seasons.

Assuming 37 games, GA would need to average 15.57 ppg to get to 2000. He averaged 14.5 last year in an injury/controversy riddled season.

Perhaps we get a poll going to see if people thinks he falls short of or surpasses Scheyer's 2077 mark. I'd say that's a 50/50 proposition.

Full disclosure: Allen has never played 37 games at Duke. He has logged 35, 36, and 34. But yes, 33 was an arbitrarily low bar to set the floor.

Snd I would agree: barring injury/suspension, Allen stands a very good chance at winding up in the top 10.

[94duke]

Who likes spreadsheets?

Points needed for 2000:
576
Points needed for 2077 (Top 10):
653

Games PPG to 2000 PPG to Top 10
33 17.5 19.8
34 16.9 19.2
35 16.5 18.7
36 16.0 18.1
37 15.6 17.6
38 15.2 17.2
39 14.8 16.7
40 14.4 16.3

[flyingdutchdevil]

Full disclosure: Allen has never played 37 games at Duke. He has logged 35, 36, and 34. But yes, 33 was an arbitrarily low bar to set the floor.

Snd I would agree: barring injury/suspension, Allen stands a very good chance at winding up in the top 10.

Which would be fantastic, because I wouldn't have thought another Duke player would be a top 10 scorer under Coach K and his new OAD philosophy. Happy for Grayson to be in reach of this goal!

Sidenote: has there ever been another Duke player where we have to say "barring injury/suspension" rather than "barring injury"? I completely agree that we have to use that lingo for Grayson, but it's interesting how "unique" Grayson is.

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

I am rooting for the Grayson comeback/revenge/retribution season more than I am rooting for any of our new kids. Hoping for all the pieces to come together of course, but if I had to pick...

[Dukiedevil]

I think Graysons' swan song looks a lot more like his Sophomore year than last year due to health and the necessity of a proven scorer. His usage rate will be necessarily high and this team will need him to average 20+ points per game to be successful. We should hit the 36 game mark again and he will end up #6 on the list (Yes, I know 20 X 36 puts him slightly short. That's why I said 20+).

[grad_devil]

I was thinking about this today, and didn't realize that CDu had already started a thread - kudos to you!

In case you're wondering about the entire list ahead of Grayson, I reproduced it from last year's Media Guide (below). You'll find Grayson at #32

+----+--------------------+-------+
| Rk | Name | Total |
+----+--------------------+-------+
| 1 | JJ Redick | 2769 |
+----+--------------------+-------+
| 2 | Johnny Dawkins | 2556 |
+----+--------------------+-------+
| 3 | Christian Laettner | 2460 |
+----+--------------------+-------+
| 4 | Kyle Singler | 2392 |
+----+--------------------+-------+
| 5 | Mike Gminski | 2323 |
+----+--------------------+-------+
| 6 | Danny Ferry | 2155 |
+----+--------------------+-------+
| 7 | Mark Alarie | 2136 |
+----+--------------------+-------+
| 8 | Gene Banks | 2079 |
+----+--------------------+-------+
| 8 | Jason Williams | 2079 |
+----+--------------------+-------+
| 10 | Jon Scheyer | 2077 |
+----+--------------------+-------+
| 11 | Jim Spanarkel | 2012 |
+----+--------------------+-------+
| 12 | Art Heyman | 1984 |
+----+--------------------+-------+
| 12 | Shane Battier | 1984 |
+----+--------------------+-------+
| 14 | Shelden Willaims | 1928 |
+----+--------------------+-------+
| 15 | Trajan Langdon | 1974 |
+----+--------------------+-------+
| 16 | Grant Hill | 1924 |
+----+--------------------+-------+
| 17 | Nolan Smith | 1911 |
+----+--------------------+-------+
| 18 | Dick Groat | 1886 |
+----+--------------------+-------+
| 19 | Jeff Mullins | 1884 |
+----+--------------------+-------+
| 20 | Bob Verga | 1758 |
+----+--------------------+-------+
| 21 | Bobby Hurley | 1731 |
+----+--------------------+-------+
| 22 | Randy Denton | 1658 |
+----+--------------------+-------+
| 23 | Ronnie Mayer | 1647 |
+----+--------------------+-------+
| 24 | Cherokee Parks | 1643 |
+----+--------------------+-------+
| 25 | Jeff Capel | 1601 |
+----+--------------------+-------+
| 26 | Daniel Ewing | 1595 |
+----+--------------------+-------+
| 27 | Thomas Hill | 1594 |
+----+--------------------+-------+
| 28 | Quinn Cook | 1571 |
+----+--------------------+-------+
| 29 | David Henderson | 1570 |
+----+--------------------+-------+
| 30 | Carlos Boozer | 1506 |
+----+--------------------+-------+
| 31 | Vince Taylor | 1455 |
+----+--------------------+-------+
| 31 | Chris Carrawell | 1455 |
+----+--------------------+-------+
| 32 | Grayson Allen | 1424 |
+----+--------------------+-------+
| 33 | Mike Lewis | 1417 |
+----+--------------------+-------+

Let the chase begin!

[uh_no]

I think Graysons' swan song looks a lot more like his Sophomore year than last year due to health and the necessity of a proven scorer.

I hope it looks like his freshman year :) :)

#6

[accfanfrom1970]

Points aren't everything, but how can Kyle be #4,
have a ring, be tough as nails, and make buckets...but not be in the rafters?

[cato]

Points aren't everything, but how can Kyle be #4,
have a ring, be tough as nails, and make buckets...but not be in the rafters?

But he is. Kyle and Nolan are represented by the banner they hung with Jon, Lance, Brian at al.

Just like you couldn't raise JJ's jersey without Shelden's, you cannot raise Kyle's without Nolan's. And, frankly, Jon's.

They were standouts in the Duke program, and have some banners in the rafters to show for it.

[4Gen]

I am amazed and utterly pumped that Grayson is a four year guy, rarefied air these days. And I just like the guy anyway. I expect a him to be an indomitable monster.

[Papa John]

I was thinking about this today, and didn't realize that CDu had already started a thread - kudos to you!

In case you're wondering about the entire list ahead of Grayson, I reproduced it from last year's Media Guide (below). You'll find Grayson at #32

+----+--------------------+-------+
| Rk | Name | Total |
+----+--------------------+-------+
| 1 | JJ Redick | 2769 |
+----+--------------------+-------+
| 2 | Johnny Dawkins | 2556 |
+----+--------------------+-------+
| 3 | Christian Laettner | 2460 |
+----+--------------------+-------+
| 4 | Kyle Singler | 2392 |
+----+--------------------+-------+
| 5 | Mike Gminski | 2323 |
+----+--------------------+-------+
| 6 | Danny Ferry | 2155 |
+----+--------------------+-------+
| 7 | Mark Alarie | 2136 |
+----+--------------------+-------+
| 8 | Gene Banks | 2079 |
+----+--------------------+-------+
| 8 | Jason Williams | 2079 |
+----+--------------------+-------+
| 10 | Jon Scheyer | 2077 |
+----+--------------------+-------+
| 11 | Jim Spanarkel | 2012 |
+----+--------------------+-------+
| 12 | Art Heyman | 1984 |
+----+--------------------+-------+
| 12 | Shane Battier | 1984 |
+----+--------------------+-------+
| 14 | Shelden Willaims | 1928 |
+----+--------------------+-------+
| 15 | Trajan Langdon | 1974 |
+----+--------------------+-------+
| 16 | Grant Hill | 1924 |
+----+--------------------+-------+
| 17 | Nolan Smith | 1911 |
+----+--------------------+-------+
| 18 | Dick Groat | 1886 |
+----+--------------------+-------+
| 19 | Jeff Mullins | 1884 |
+----+--------------------+-------+
| 20 | Bob Verga | 1758 |
+----+--------------------+-------+
| 21 | Bobby Hurley | 1731 |
+----+--------------------+-------+
| 22 | Randy Denton | 1658 |
+----+--------------------+-------+
| 23 | Ronnie Mayer | 1647 |
+----+--------------------+-------+
| 24 | Cherokee Parks | 1643 |
+----+--------------------+-------+
| 25 | Jeff Capel | 1601 |
+----+--------------------+-------+
| 26 | Daniel Ewing | 1595 |
+----+--------------------+-------+
| 27 | Thomas Hill | 1594 |
+----+--------------------+-------+
| 28 | Quinn Cook | 1571 |
+----+--------------------+-------+
| 29 | David Henderson | 1570 |
+----+--------------------+-------+
| 30 | Carlos Boozer | 1506 |
+----+--------------------+-------+
| 31 | Vince Taylor | 1455 |
+----+--------------------+-------+
| 31 | Chris Carrawell | 1455 |
+----+--------------------+-------+
| 32 | Grayson Allen | 1424 |
+----+--------------------+-------+
| 33 | Mike Lewis | 1417 |
+----+--------------------+-------+

Let the chase begin!

Looking at this list, I still can't believe Kyle Singler's jersey isn't in the rafters...

[ipatent]

Pretty impressive considering his limited minutes as a freshman.

[uh_no]

Looking at this list, I still can't believe Kyle Singler's jersey isn't in the rafters...

He never had a really stellar season that stood out. He was "only" 'really good' for four years. The best he did was second team all-american, and that, only once.

I know there are players I would retire if it were up to me, but it's not. If the 2010 championship team has made anything clear, it's that

1) team accomplishments beget team banners....not jersey retirements
2) one year of even first team all american is not enough (nolan)


I think if you had kyle's career numbers PLUS a stellar season like nolan's senior effort...which would have been a first team, there might be a really strong argument.

So for grayson, I think he has to win NPOY to get his number up there. His sophomore effort was really really good, but unfortunately only netted him a third team. Even with a first team effort, his career as a whole is close to on par with nolan's.....he excellence wasn't consistent enough, I think.

[superdave]

He never had a really stellar season that stood out. He was "only" 'really good' for four years. The best he did was second team all-american, and that, only once.

I know there are players I would retire if it were up to me, but it's not. If the 2010 championship team has made anything clear, it's that

1) team accomplishments beget team banners...not jersey retirements
2) one year of even first team all american is not enough (nolan)


I think if you had kyle's career numbers PLUS a stellar season like nolan's senior effort...which would have been a first team, there might be a really strong argument.

So for grayson, I think he has to win NPOY to get his number up there. His sophomore effort was really really good, but unfortunately only netted him a third team. Even with a first team effort, his career as a whole is close to on par with nolan's....he excellence wasn't consistent enough, I think.

I think Coach K expected Kyle to take that next step and be a NPOY cailber player as a senior. Kyle had a big 3-point slump as a senior - he went from .399 to .321. If he had shot the same %, that's 15 more makes, and 1.2 points per game more, or 18 ppg. That plus a healthy Kyrie, a cold Derrick Williams and a second Final Four in a row could have put Singler over the top. But the little 3-point slump and the Sweet 16 exit made it not really that close, unfortunately.

https://www.sports-reference.com/cbb/players/kyle-singler-1.html

[uh_no]

I think Coach K expected Kyle to take that next step and be a NPOY cailber player as a senior. Kyle had a big 3-point slump as a senior - he went from .399 to .321. If he had shot the same %, that's 15 more makes, and 1.2 points per game more, or 18 ppg. That plus a healthy Kyrie, a cold Derrick Williams and a second Final Four in a row could have put Singler over the top. But the little 3-point slump and the Sweet 16 exit made it not really that close, unfortunately.

https://www.sports-reference.com/cbb/players/kyle-singler-1.html

ultimately i agree. having been a frosh at the same time as Nolan, those guys will always have a special place in my shrine.

that said, despite the clamoring here that some combination of the three should have been retired, i was pretty confident it wasn't in the works. we'll go though the same brouhaha with Grayson should he be an aa, but the result will be the same.

[Olympic Fan]

He never had a really stellar season that stood out. He was "only" 'really good' for four years. The best he did was second team all-american, and that, only once.

I know there are players I would retire if it were up to me, but it's not. If the 2010 championship team has made anything clear, it's that

1) team accomplishments beget team banners...not jersey retirements
2) one year of even first team all american is not enough (nolan)


I think if you had kyle's career numbers PLUS a stellar season like nolan's senior effort...which would have been a first team, there might be a really strong argument.

So for grayson, I think he has to win NPOY to get his number up there. His sophomore effort was really really good, but unfortunately only netted him a third team. Even with a first team effort, his career as a whole is close to on par with nolan's....he excellence wasn't consistent enough, I think.

Just one more point in Kyle's favor -- he STARTED more victories than any other player in college basketball history -- 124 (he came off the bench in a 125th win)

Shane Battier and Wayne Turner of Kentucky PLAYED in more victories, but neither started as many of those wins as Kyle.

Actually, Gonzaga's Przemek Karnowski now holds the record for most career wins (137) but he didn't start as many wins as Kyle (He started just once in 34 games as a freshman).

[uh_no]

Just one more point in Kyle's favor -- he STARTED more victories than any other player in college basketball history -- 124 (he came off the bench in a 125th win)

Shane Battier and Wayne Turner of Kentucky PLAYED in more victories, but neither started as many of those wins as Kyle.

Actually, Gonzaga's Przemek Karnowski now holds the record for most career wins (137) but he didn't start as many wins as Kyle (He started just once in 34 games as a freshman).

while a really nice stat, I think it's not the kind of thing to be used as jersey retirement criteria. It's just slightly too obscure, and so affected by other factors to be more useful than other metrics

- team must have right composition to be a starter from day 1. Using even duke as an example, there are some teams when really good incoming freshman may not get starts or even much PT. Would kyle have gotten as many starts on the 2004 team? If we had had a justice winslow on the team? hard to know. but the team was perfect for him to come in and own the starting spot from day one.
- team has to be good enough to get lots of wins over 4. this will be true for most duke teams, especially in an era of really weak ACC play outside of 15-501. Only a few schools in the country will have that many wins in a 4 year period.

I agree, it's a good stat, but it simply reinforces what we already know about kyle from other stats....that he was a really good player on some really good teams over four years. As you point out, due to circumstance, he happened to come out on top. I just don't think he NEEDS this trivia to make a case of how good a player he was. The rest of his record speaks for itself.

[Atldukie79]

There is always an argument made for the "next best player not currently in the rafters" to be in the rafters.

I love Kyle and he is a strong candidate, but no more distinctive than a number of other candidates...

The career scoring list is meaningful and representative, but not conclusive. Kyle should be acknowledged for his position on that list. How do you value Jack Marin and Bob Verga, both of whom played virtually every game they were eligible to play (ok, strep throat and too much partying lost him 2 games), yet have 1/2 the career games that Kyle had? And not because they elected to leave early, but because....well, that's all folks. For 4 year players with plenty of games played, why not Alarie as the "next best player not to be in the rafters", etc.

[Indoor66]

There is always an argument made for the "next best player not currently in the rafters" to be in the rafters.

I love Kyle and he is a strong candidate, but no more distinctive than a number of other candidates...

The career scoring list is meaningful and representative, but not conclusive. Kyle should be acknowledged for his position on that list. How do you value Jack Marin and Bob Verga, both of whom played virtually every game they were eligible to play (ok, strep throat and too much partying lost him 2 games), yet have 1/2 the career games that Kyle had? And not because they elected to leave early, but because...well, that's all folks. For 4 year players with plenty of games played, why not Alarie as the "next best player not to be in the rafters", etc.

I believe you are incorrect about that. Verga was the only starter not penalized for the New Years time party. He started and scored 38 against Penn State. (http://goduke.statsgeek.com/basketball-m/games/boxscore.php?gameid=19670103) Also, he played in the KY game but was hobbled by the strep throat.

[Olympic Fan]

Just to be clear, I think Verga is the strongest player NOT in the rafters.

In fact, his career achievements are almost the same as Jeff Mullins, who is up there.

It's true that he didn't play as many games as Singler and other recent candidates, but he averaged 21.98 points a game in his 80 career games -- which is second only to Heyman (25.11) in Duke history. He averaged 49.0 percent from the floor which is phenomenal for a guy who shot from long-range as much as Verga.

He was three-times first-team All-ACC and was a consensus first-team All-America (he not only had a better scoring average than Mullins, but neither Mullins nor Marin were ever a consensus first-team All-American). He was also first-team All-ABA with the Carolina Cougars.

Of all the guys left out, Verga is at the front of the line.

To get back on topic the question should be: Can Grayson Allen cut to the front of the line with a strong senior season?

If he finishes as national player of the year, he's a lock. If he's a first-team All-American AND leads Duke to a sixth national title, then I think he'll make it but it's debatable. The NPOY hurdle has become a key factor, even though several early honorees (Mullins) did meet that criteria. Anything less and I don't think he makes it.

[sagegrouse]

.

To get back on topic the question should be: Can Grayson Allen cut to the front of the line with a strong senior season?

If he finishes as national player of the year, he's a lock. If he's a first-team All-American AND leads Duke to a sixth national title, then I think he'll make it but it's debatable. The NPOY hurdle has become a key factor, even though several early honorees (Mullins) did meet that criteria. Anything less and I don't think he makes it.

I think Grayson is in somewhat better position for jersey retirement, Olympic Fan. I think he is in with a first-team All-American selection (consensus, natch). Second team A-A consensus -- then it gets a bit iffy. But remember, OF, Grayson not only already has a championship ring, but he was All-Final Four, and he has a Duke award in his honor (for best defensive play in the NCAA championship game).

I agree on Verga's being at the top of the list of those omitted (consensus 1st team A-A in 1967 and consensus 2nd team in 1966) -- and it's a mystery to me. As for Mullins, Jeff was added 30 years later and there was some emphasis on his later accomplishments: first Duke hoops player to win Olympic gold, ditto for NBA championship, plus three all-star teams. He was a successful coach at Charlotte, and he later became a Duke assistant AD.

[Olympic Fan]

I think Grayson is in somewhat better position for jersey retirement, Olympic Fan. I think he is in with a first-team All-American selection (consensus, natch). Second team A-A consensus -- then it gets a bit iffy. But remember, OF, Grayson not only already has a championship ring, but he was All-Final Four, and he has a Duke award in his honor (for best defensive play in the NCAA championship game).

I think you wa-a-a-y overrate Grayson's chances.

Nolan Smith was first-team All-American and he also won a national championship ring and he didn't get a sniff.

Put first-team All-American (something Grayson has never won) and a second national title on the table and, yes, I think there is a reasonable chance.

But first team All-America on a Sweet 16 team and he won't make it.

Second-team All-American and another national title and he won't make it.

[CDu]

I think you wa-a-a-y overrate Grayson's chances.

Nolan Smith was first-team All-American and he also won a national championship ring and he didn't get a sniff.

Put first-team All-American (something Grayson has never won) and a second national title on the table and, yes, I think there is a reasonable chance.

But first team All-America on a Sweet 16 team and he won't make it.

Second-team All-American and another national title and he won't make it.

The bolded is, in my opnion, absurd. If Allen lands a first-team All-American honor, he will almost certainly have ended up in the top-7 all-time scorers at Duke. He'll also have earned two All-America honors (one third-team and one first-team). And he'll have played on at least one national championship team and one ACC champion. That in and of itself should put him in the discussion.

If he does all of that AND the team wins the national title this year, and you think it is only "a reasonable chance"? Good grief! How would anyone ever get their jersey retired if a two-time All-American and two-time national title winner resume doesn't get it? He would seem to be a lock with that resume. And I would say with the second title and a 2nd- or 3rd-team All-America honor this year, he'd have a reasonable chance. Even though he was a reserve on the title team, I think it would be extremely odd to see a key contributor on a championship team, who also won multiple national All-American honors, not getting his jersey retired.

Where I think it gets iffy if the team doesn't do as well, or if he doesn't do as well individually.

I think your hypothetical comparison with Smith is bogus. Nolan Smith was a reserve for his first two years, whereas Allen was a reserve only as a freshman. Smith was a very-good-but-not-nationally-great player on the 2010 title team. Smith's senior year was comparable to Allen's sophomore year - arguably better, although not definitively so. Smith's junior year was definitely better than Allen's junior year, but Allen's junior year was definitely better than Smith's sophomore year. If we're assuming Allen gets another All-American honor (1st or 2nd team), that's going to give Allen two years about as good as Smith's best, and a third year that is much better than Smith's third-best year and worse than Smith's second-best year.

The comparison between Smith and Allen holds right now. Allen would not get in the rafters with his resume, just like Smith did not get in. Smith's resume as it stands is better than Allen's. But I think another All-American honor for Allen puts him comfortably ahead of Smith.

[uh_no]

(for best defensive play in the NCAA championship game).

IIRC, the award is for "best moment" which happened to be for his defensive play, and will only be awarded for championship teams.

[Olympic Fan]

The bolded is, in my opnion, absurd. If Allen lands a first-team All-American honor, he will almost certainly have ended up in the top-7 all-time scorers at Duke. He'll also have earned two All-America honors (one third-team and one first-team). And he'll have played on at least one national championship team and one ACC champion. That in and of itself should put him in the discussion.

If he does all of that AND the team wins the national title this year, and you think it is only "a reasonable chance"? Good grief! How would anyone ever get their jersey retired if a two-time All-American and two-time national title winner resume doesn't get it? He would seem to be a lock with that resume. And I would say with the second title and a 2nd- or 3rd-team All-America honor this year, he'd have a reasonable chance. Even though he was a reserve on the title team, I think it would be extremely odd to see a key contributor on a championship team, who also won multiple national All-American honors, not getting his jersey retired.

Where I think it gets iffy if the team doesn't do as well, or if he doesn't do as well individually.

I think your hypothetical comparison with Smith is bogus. Nolan Smith was a reserve for his first two years, whereas Allen was a reserve only as a freshman. Smith was a very-good-but-not-nationally-great player on the 2010 title team. Smith's senior year was comparable to Allen's sophomore year - arguably better, although not definitively so. Smith's junior year was definitely better than Allen's junior year, but Allen's junior year was definitely better than Smith's sophomore year. If we're assuming Allen gets another All-American honor (1st or 2nd team), that's going to give Allen two years about as good as Smith's best, and a third year that is much better than Smith's third-best year and worse than Smith's second-best year.

The comparison between Smith and Allen holds right now. Allen would not get in the rafters with his resume, just like Smith did not get in. Smith's resume as it stands is better than Allen's. But I think another All-American honor for Allen puts him comfortably ahead of Smith.

I say "good chance" and no lock because the criteria is that a player has to be a national player of the year, national defensive player of the year or a major record holder:

I know that criteria has not always been followed, but it's there.

As for his "finishing in the top seven in scoring" what does that have to do with it? Kyle Singler is fourth -- he's not up there. Gene Banks is eighth -- he's not up there. Jon Scheyer is 10th -- he's not up there.

I repeat, if Grayson is national player of the year, he'll be up there.

Win a second national title and by consensus first-team All-American, I think he will be up there (but not a lock)

Anything less -- just first-team All-America or second-team A-A on a national title team and he will fall short.

It IS hard to win retirement -- look at some of the guys who missed -- first-team All-Americans Nolan Smith, Chris Carrawell and Bob Verga (who was also a two-time All-American)

PS There are two other first-team A-A's that didn't make it -- Elton Brand (NPOY) and Jahlil Okafor. That brings up the one hard and fast criteria -- a player must graduate. I don't think that will be a problem for Grayson.

[CDu]

I say "good chance" and no lock because the criteria is that a player has to be a national player of the year, national defensive player of the year or a major record holder:

I know that criteria has not always been followed, but it's there.

Please feel free to point to where "there" is.


As for his "finishing in the top seven in scoring" what does that have to do with it? Kyle Singler is fourth -- he's not up there. Gene Banks is eighth -- he's not up there. Jon Scheyer is 10th -- he's not up there.

It's a part of the puzzle. Those other guys fell short on the other components: Singler never was an All-American; Banks never won a title and never won a consensus All-American honor; Scheyer had just the one great season.


I repeat, if Grayson is national player of the year, he'll be up there.

Obviously.


Win a second national title and by consensus first-team All-American, I think he will be up there (but not a lock)

Anything less -- just first-team All-America or second-team A-A on a national title team and he will fall short.

I disagree on both counts, as stated previously.


It IS hard to win retirement -- look at some of the guys who missed -- first-team All-Americans Nolan Smith, Chris Carrawell and Bob Verga (who was also a two-time All-American)

Verga was a two-time All-American... with no national titles. Smith as we have already discussed has just the one national honor and just two years as a starter. Carrawell was essentially Jon Scheyer-lite, minus the national championship. None of them compare to what Allen would have done in the hypothetical season. You are suggesting that a two-time All-American with two national titles isn't a lock. I think that's incorrect.

There are only three Duke players who were 2-time All-Americans AND won 2 national titles. All 3 have jerseys hanging from the rafters. It would be literally unprecedented for a player of those credentials (in the event of another All-American honor and national title) to not get his jersey retired at Duke. If Allen is a 2nd team or 1st team All-American and Duke wins its sixth title, I see no reasonable argument to keep him out. He's a lock in that scenario in my opinion.

Where it would start to get interesting is if he gets the 1st team All-American honor but doesn't win the title. There are, again, only 3 players who fit that category at Duke (the same 3), and all 3 have their jerseys retired. But then we'd be looking at a player who was only a reserve on the title team. In that case, I would think Allen would have a reasonable shot, but would certainly not bet on it. Getting a 2nd Team honor would put us further into the gray area and closer to Verga or status. He'd be ahead of Verga though - it would just be a question of how much ahead. What if we make the Final Four? The title game?

In that last scenario (no national title but a 1st team All-American), I think it just depends on how much Coach K wants to value Allen's role on the title team in the current climate. And remember that Allen is quite possibly going to be the last multi-year star player to graduate from Duke under Coach K's tutelage. In the era of early entry, being a 4-year guy with multiple nationally-prominent seasons means something. Again, it alone would not get him in, but it would be another piece of the puzzle. Whether or not it would be enough to get Allen over the hump without at least a 1st Team All-America honor, I don't know.

[sagegrouse]

I say "good chance" and no lock because the criteria is that a player has to be a national player of the year, national defensive player of the year or a major record holder:

I know that criteria has not always been followed, but it's there.

As for his "finishing in the top seven in scoring" what does that have to do with it? Kyle Singler is fourth -- he's not up there. Gene Banks is eighth -- he's not up there. Jon Scheyer is 10th -- he's not up there.

I repeat, if Grayson is national player of the year, he'll be up there.

Win a second national title and by consensus first-team All-American, I think he will be up there (but not a lock)

Anything less -- just first-team All-America or second-team A-A on a national title team and he will fall short.

It IS hard to win retirement -- look at some of the guys who missed -- first-team All-Americans Nolan Smith, Chris Carrawell and Bob Verga (who was also a two-time All-American)

PS There are two other first-team A-A's that didn't make it -- Elton Brand (NPOY) and Jahlil Okafor. That brings up the one hard and fast criteria -- a player must graduate. I don't think that will be a problem for Grayson.

We are looking at the records through different lenses, OF, which is okay. My rule-of-thumb is (a) NPOY or (b) two-time all-American - 2nd team or better (plus, of course, graduation from Duke). That explains almost everyone in the rafters: For sure, it covers Dick Groat, Heyman, Gminski, Dawkins, Ferry, Laettner, Hill, Battier, JWill and JJ. The others: Mullins (discussed upthread), Hurley (1st team A-A in 1993, some A-A teams the year before, plus two NC's), Shelden (1st team A-A in 2006, twice on some A-A teams, twice DPOY).

Carrawell and Nolan Smith only (only?) received A-A selection in one year, and neither was NPOY.

As most know who have followed this debate for years, Eddie Cameron wouldn't let Vic Bubas retire any jerseys. He said Dick Groat was the standard -- All-American in two sports!

[uh_no]

Please feel free to point to where "there" is.

Explicitly stated by K himself. Someone asked him in a pre-UNC crazie meeting about it. he said pretty much exactly what gets batted around. graduation and some sort of major national recognition (the two examples he used were some sort of NPOY or a national record)

We can argue about exceptions and what not all we want, and how previous selections have met the reqs, but those are his explicitly stated criteria.

[ipatent]

There is an argument for Kyle, Alarie and Gene Banks. Kyle's senior shooting slump didn't help, and while pro success isn't supposed to count, there may have been an impression that he wasn't quite the talent at the end of the day that some of the others were. Have standards tightened as the number of eligible jerseys dwindle?

Kyle was clutch when it counted during the '10 championship run, with the exception of the Baylor game.

In the end, K probably decides and weighs a lot of things. I think Banks's chances were hurt because he straddled two coaches and there was some friction between Foster's players and K at first.

[Bay Area Duke Fan]

Do the tripping incidents adversely affect the possibility of Grayson's jersey/number being retired?

[jv001]

Do the tripping incidents adversely affect the possibility of Grayson's jersey/number being retired?

The stomp didn't keep Christian from getting his jersey retired. GoDuke!

[Atldukie79]

I believe you are incorrect about that. Verga was the only starter not penalized for the New Years time party. He started and scored 38 against Penn State. (http://goduke.statsgeek.com/basketball-m/games/boxscore.php?gameid=19670103) Also, he played in the KY game but was hobbled by the strep throat.

Yes, Verga played against KY, but it was a "lost" game in terms of performance.

Regarding the discipline issue, I was not referring to the Penn State game, but a different game. I am relying on my memory as a 9 year old who was excited to attend only one game at Duke Indoor Stadium to see my hero Bob Verga. Instead, I watched Tony Barone play. I think. But I know Verga did not play. He sat on the bench. It might have been '66 when Verga played 28 games out of 30. Not sure. Perhaps you can recall such a game.

Regardless of my imprecise language or recollections on specifics, my point regarding judging career stats without looking at per game performance to normalize different tenures across eras stands.

[brevity]

Do the tripping incidents adversely affect the possibility of Grayson's jersey/number being retired?


The stomp didn't keep Christian from getting his jersey retired. GoDuke!

Nope. The stomp occurred later.

February 26, 1992: jersey retired (source (http://www.goduke.com/fls/4200/media-guides/mbb/2014-15/Tradition%20106-120.pdf))

March 28, 1992: alleged murder attempt of Aminu Timberlake (2012 update on him here (http://keepingscore.blogs.time.com/2012/03/14/hate-duke-catching-up-with-the-man-who-got-stomped-by-christian-laettner/))

[IrishDevil]

Kyle was clutch when it counted during the '10 championship run, with the exception of the Baylor game.

Not germane to the retirement discussion, so my apologies, but because it is such a visceral memory for me - this was generally true, though Kyle's jumper from the elbow on the inbounds out of the timeout on our final offensive possession in the title game still makes me cringe.

[JasonEvans]

Do the tripping incidents adversely affect the possibility of Grayson's jersey/number being retired?

I think the tripping incidents, especially last year, tinge his junior season (and certainly seem to have effected him during January and perhaps beyond). The frustrating junior season is one of the things holding him back from jersey retirement, IMO. But, as others have said, if his senior year is a tad above the level of his soph campaign (first team All-American) and you add in a bit more team success, I could see jersey retirement in his future.

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

I think the tripping incidents, especially last year, tinge his junior season (and certainly seem to have effected him during January and perhaps beyond). The frustrating junior season is one of the things holding him back from jersey retirement, IMO. But, as others have said, if his senior year is a tad above the level of his soph campaign (first team All-American) and you add in a bit more team success, I could see jersey retirement in his future.

If Grayson overcomes last year's complications and it comes with temporary success, I could see his jersey in the rafters. People love a redemption story.

[Jackson]

Points aren't everything, but how can Kyle be #4,
have a ring, be tough as nails, and make buckets...but not be in the rafters?

As I looked down the list, I thought the same thing. One of all-time favorite Duke players. His lack of 1st team All American honors keep him off the list, I guess, but what a great player. My enduring memory is of his last game vs Arizona, diving for a loose ball, banging onto the floor, even after the outcome was already decided.

[grad_devil]

Grayson tallied 40 points in Duke's first two games, vaulting him past Chris Carrawell and Vince Taylor on the all-time scoring list. He now stands at #31. Next up is Carlos Boozer (1506, or Grayson + 42 pts). The full list is below.

As far as his career scoring numbers, here's a brief breakdown the points he'd need to average to achieve the following milestones:


As of 11/12/2017
Min Games Remaining31
Grayson’s points1464
Avg to 2k17.29
Avg to top 1019.77
Avg to JJ42.10


JJ's total is unreachable, but the 2,000 point mark isn't far fetched, IMHO.

Duke Career Scoring Leaders

NamePts
1JJ Redick2769
2Johnny Dawkins2556
3Christian Laettner2460
4Kyle Singler2392
5Mike Gminski2323
6Danny Ferry2155
7Mark Alarie2136
8Gene Banks2079
8Jason Williams2079
10Jon Scheyer2077
11Jim Spanarkel2012
12Art Heyman1984
12Shane Battier1984
14Shelden Willaims1928
15Trajan Langdon1974
16Grant Hill1924
17Nolan Smith1911
18Dick Groat1886
19Jeff Mullins1884
20Bob Verga1758
21Bobby Hurley1731
22Randy Denton1658
23Ronnie Mayer1647
24Cherokee Parks1643
25Jeff Capel1601
26Daniel Ewing1595
27Thomas Hill1594
28Quinn Cook1571
29David Henderson1570
30Carlos Boozer1506
31Grayson Allen1464
32Vince Taylor1455
32Chris Carrawell1455

[DukieInBrasil]

Grayson tallied 40 points in Duke's first two games, vaulting him past Chris Carrawell and Vince Taylor on the all-time scoring list. He now stands at #31. Next up is Carlos Boozer (1506, or Grayson + 42 pts). The full list is below.

As far as his career scoring numbers, here's a brief breakdown the points he'd need to average to achieve the following milestones:


As of 11/12/2017
Min Games Remaining31
Grayson’s points1464
Avg to 2k17.29
Avg to top 1019.77
Avg to JJ42.10


JJ's total is unreachable, but the 2,000 point mark isn't far fetched, IMHO.

Duke Career Scoring Leaders

NamePts
1JJ Redick2769
2Johnny Dawkins2556
3Christian Laettner2460
4Kyle Singler2392
5Mike Gminski2323
6Danny Ferry2155
7Mark Alarie2136
8Gene Banks2079
8Jason Williams2079
10Jon Scheyer2077
11Jim Spanarkel2012
12Art Heyman1984
12Shane Battier1984
14Shelden Willaims1928
15Trajan Langdon1974
16Grant Hill1924
17Nolan Smith1911
18Dick Groat1886
19Jeff Mullins1884
20Bob Verga1758
21Bobby Hurley1731
22Randy Denton1658
23Ronnie Mayer1647
24Cherokee Parks1643
25Jeff Capel1601
26Daniel Ewing1595
27Thomas Hill1594
28Quinn Cook1571
29David Henderson1570
30Carlos Boozer1506
31Grayson Allen1464
32Vince Taylor1455
32Chris Carrawell1455


Grayson could get into the top 6 if he continues to score 20ppg and we play into the Final 4 (2184), but it would take a good bit more for him to break into the top 5. Grayson would have to average about 22.7ppg and play in 40 games to pass Gminski. I think that is a reasonable goal!!!

[Olympic Fan]

Grayson's stats us pretty amazing, considering he just scored 153 points as a freshman.

The only guys ahead of him on the list with less points as a freshman are three-year players Jeff Mullins, Art Heyman, Bob Verga and Randy Denton -- and Grayson should pass all of them before he's done.

Well, I just checked and Quinn Cook had just 146 points as a freshman -- but Grayson is going to blow past him soon. Nolan Smith was another late bloomer, but he had 202 points as a freshman.

[TruBlu]

Grayson's stats us pretty amazing, considering he just scored 153 points as a freshman.

The only guys ahead of him on the list with less points as a freshman are three-year players Jeff Mullins, Art Heyman, Bob Verga and Randy Denton -- and Grayson should pass all of them before he's done.

Well, I just checked and Quinn Cook had just 146 points as a freshman -- but Grayson is going to blow past him soon. Nolan Smith was another late bloomer, but he had 202 points as a freshman.

16 of those freshman points by Grayson were huge!!!

[MCFinARL]

Grayson could get into the top 6 if he continues to score 20ppg and we play into the Final 4 (2184), but it would take a good bit more for him to break into the top 5. Grayson would have to average about 22.7ppg and play in 40 games to pass Gminski. I think that is a reasonable goal!!!

A reasonable goal, sure. A reasonable expectation, maybe not. ;)

[lmb]

I always loved Daniel Ewing as a player but admit I was surprised to see how high he was on this list. So many great players have come and gone that it's easy to forget about the achievements of a few that aren't as heralded.

[DukieInBrasil]

just thought i'd point out that Grayson's next made 3 will be the 200th of his career.
I didn't bother to look up where he stands on Duke's all-time 3pt makes list.

[94duke]

just thought i'd point out that Grayson's next made 3 will be the 200th of his career.
I didn't bother to look up where he stands on Duke's all-time 3pt makes list.

from the media guide:
http://www.goduke.com/ViewArticle.dbml?&SPSID=22724&SPID=1845&DB_LANG=C&DB_OEM_ID=4200&ATCLID=211675332


3-POINT FIELD GOALS MADE
Rk Name Years 3FG
1. J.J. Redick 2003-06 457
2. Trajan Langdon 1995-99 342
3. Jason Williams 2000-02 313
4. Jon Scheyer 2007-10 297
5. Kyle Singler 2008-11 267
6. Bobby Hurley 1990-93 264
7. Shane Battier 1998-2001 246
8. Quinn Cook 2012-15 236
9. Andre Dawkins 2010-12, 2014 231
10. Seth Curry 2011-13 223

[Kedsy]

from the media guide:
http://www.goduke.com/ViewArticle.dbml?&SPSID=22724&SPID=1845&DB_LANG=C&DB_OEM_ID=4200&ATCLID=211675332


3-POINT FIELD GOALS MADE
Rk Name Years 3FG
1. J.J. Redick 2003-06 457
2. Trajan Langdon 1995-99 342
3. Jason Williams 2000-02 313
4. Jon Scheyer 2007-10 297
5. Kyle Singler 2008-11 267
6. Bobby Hurley 1990-93 264
7. Shane Battier 1998-2001 246
8. Quinn Cook 2012-15 236
9. Andre Dawkins 2010-12, 2014 231
10. Seth Curry 2011-13 223

Wow, that means Grayson has a decent shot at 3rd all time.

[flyingdutchdevil]

from the media guide:
http://www.goduke.com/ViewArticle.dbml?&SPSID=22724&SPID=1845&DB_LANG=C&DB_OEM_ID=4200&ATCLID=211675332


3-POINT FIELD GOALS MADE
Rk Name Years 3FG
1. J.J. Redick 2003-06 457
2. Trajan Langdon 1995-99 342
3. Jason Williams 2000-02 313
4. Jon Scheyer 2007-10 297
5. Kyle Singler 2008-11 267
6. Bobby Hurley 1990-93 264
7. Shane Battier 1998-2001 246
8. Quinn Cook 2012-15 236
9. Andre Dawkins 2010-12, 2014 231
10. Seth Curry 2011-13 223

My God JJ is a legend.

[DukieInBrasil]

Wow, that means Grayson has a decent shot at 3rd all time.

Yeah, if Duke plays another 38 games, Grayson would need to hit 114 to tie Jason Williams, and will need to hit 4.07 3s/game. To pass J-Will he'll need to hit 4.107 3s/game.
So if Grayson shoots 10 3s/game, he would need to hit them at ~41% rate, which is right at his So. 3FG% rate.
So far Grayson is hitting them at a rate of 5/game, shooting 7.5 3s/game, shooting a ridiculous 67%. I don't suspect his 3FG% to stay that high, but it does seem somewhat likely that his 3FG/game will go up from where it is now.

[sagegrouse]

from the media guide:
http://www.goduke.com/ViewArticle.dbml?&SPSID=22724&SPID=1845&DB_LANG=C&DB_OEM_ID=4200&ATCLID=211675332


3-POINT FIELD GOALS MADE
Rk Name Years 3FG
1. J.J. Redick 2003-06 457
2. Trajan Langdon 1995-99 342
3. Jason Williams 2000-02 313
4. Jon Scheyer 2007-10 297
5. Kyle Singler 2008-11 267
6. Bobby Hurley 1990-93 264
7. Shane Battier 1998-2001 246
8. Quinn Cook 2012-15 236
9. Andre Dawkins 2010-12, 2014 231
10. Seth Curry 2011-13 223
Just to prove I can't let anything go -- how is JWill number three on our all-time three-point list (in only three seasons) when he can't make a free throw in the final seconds against Indiana in the Sweet Sixteen?????

[DukieInBrasil]

Grayson now at 206 career 3s. Needs 108 to get to number 3 on the list. I did my math wrong earlier, he only needed to 3 3s/game to get to 3rd place (assuming 38 more games). After this one, he only needs to hit 2.91/game to get to 3rd place.
If he makes 3.7/game in 37 more games, he'll pass Trajan for #2 on the Duke career 3pt list.

[CDu]

Grayson now at 206 career 3s. Needs 108 to get to number 3 on the list. I did my math wrong earlier, he only needed to 3 3s/game to get to 3rd place (assuming 38 more games). After this one, he only needs to hit 2.91/game to get to 3rd place.
If he makes 3.7/game in 37 more games, he'll pass Trajan for #2 on the Duke career 3pt list.

And if he keeps hitting 7 per game, he has a shot to overtake Redick. Kidding, of course. Sort of kidding.

[Acymetric]

And if he keeps hitting 7 per game, he has a shot to overtake Redick. Kidding, of course. Sort of kidding.

The scary thing (about JJ) is that he would only have a shot. JJ was pretty good at basketball.

[DukieInBrasil]

The scary thing (about JJ) is that he would only have a shot. JJ was pretty good at basketball.

the man's still scorching nets in the NBA. He is pretty good.

[JNort]

Well tonight's game certainly boosted Grayson up in his points and 3s made.

[DevilFalcon]

Grayson for NPOY!

[brlftz]

My God JJ is a legend.

Also my God, JWill did all that JWill stuff and is also that high on the 3 pt list? He's underappreciated IMO.

[juise]

As shown above, Grayson needs to average 42 to catch JJ. This 37-point effort tonight is just not getting it done. It's early in the season, so I will try to withhold judgment.


:p

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

Just to prove I can't let anything go -- how is JWill number three on our all-time three-point list (in only three seasons) when he can't make a free throw in the final seconds against Indiana in the Sweet Sixteen?????

How could Trajan be #2 when all I remember is him traveling?

/s

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

As shown above, Grayson needs to average 42 to catch JJ. This 37-point effort tonight is just not getting it done. It's early in the season, so I will try to withhold judgment.


:p

My math, assuming 40 games of course, breaks down to 33.6 points to break the record. Last night he was ahead of pace.

[grad_devil]

MtnDevil is right - unless something goes terribly wrong (<knocks on wood>), we'll play more than 1 game in both tourneys. Assuming that we're a top 4 seed in the ACC, I believe we'll play a max of 37 more games this season (+5 in the NCAA tourney, +2 in the ACC tourney).

After last night's flurry of points, Grayson didn't catch CBooz, but he's only 5 points away from overtaking him and spot #30.



Points as of 11/15/2017
1501



Min
Max


Games Remaining
30
37


Avg to top 20
8.58
6.95


Avg to 2k
16.63
13.49


Avg to top 10
19.20
15.57


Avg to JJ
42.27
34.27



Duke Career Scoring Leaders


NamePts


1
JJ Redick
2769


2
Johnny Dawkins
2556


3
Christian Laettner
2460


4
Kyle Singler
2392


5
Mike Gminski
2323


6
Danny Ferry
2155


7
Mark Alarie
2136


8
Gene Banks
2079


8
Jason Williams
2079


10
Jon Scheyer
2077


11
Jim Spanarkel
2012


12
Art Heyman
1984


12
Shane Battier
1984


14
Shelden Willaims
1928


15
Trajan Langdon
1974


16
Grant Hill
1924


17
Nolan Smith
1911


18
Dick Groat
1886


19
Jeff Mullins
1884


20
Bob Verga
1758


21
Bobby Hurley
1731


22
Randy Denton
1658


23
Ronnie Mayer
1647


24
Cherokee Parks
1643


25
Jeff Capel
1601


26
Daniel Ewing
1595


27
Thomas Hill
1594


28
Quinn Cook
1571


29
David Henderson
1570


30
Carlos Boozer
1506


31
Grayson Allen
1501


32
Vince Taylor
1455


32
Chris Carrawell
1455

[NYBri]

Just to prove I can't let anything go -- how is JWill number three on our all-time three-point list (in only three seasons) when he can't make a free throw in the final seconds against Indiana in the Sweet Sixteen?????

Wow. You’ve got a python grip on that. :cool:

[BandAlum83]

MtnDevil is right - unless something goes terribly wrong (<knocks on wood>), we'll play more than 1 game in both tourneys. Assuming that we're a top 4 seed in the ACC, I believe we'll play a max of 37 more games this season (+5 in the NCAA tourney, +2 in the ACC tourney).

After last night's flurry of points, Grayson didn't catch CBooz, but he's only 5 points away from overtaking him and spot #30.



Points as of 11/15/2017
1501



Min
Max


Games Remaining
30
37


Avg to top 20
8.58
6.95


Avg to 2k
16.63
13.49


Avg to top 10
19.20
15.57


Avg to JJ
42.27
34.27



Duke Career Scoring Leaders


NamePts


1
JJ Redick
2769


2
Johnny Dawkins
2556


3
Christian Laettner
2460


4
Kyle Singler
2392


5
Mike Gminski
2323


6
Danny Ferry
2155


7
Mark Alarie
2136


8
Gene Banks
2079


8
Jason Williams
2079


10
Jon Scheyer
2077


11
Jim Spanarkel
2012


12
Art Heyman
1984


12
Shane Battier
1984


14
Shelden Willaims
1928


15
Trajan Langdon
1974


16
Grant Hill
1924


17
Nolan Smith
1911


18
Dick Groat
1886


19
Jeff Mullins
1884


20
Bob Verga
1758


21
Bobby Hurley
1731


22
Randy Denton
1658


23
Ronnie Mayer
1647


24
Cherokee Parks
1643


25
Jeff Capel
1601


26
Daniel Ewing
1595


27
Thomas Hill
1594


28
Quinn Cook
1571


29
David Henderson
1570


30
Carlos Boozer
1506


31
Grayson Allen
1501


32
Vince Taylor
1455


32
Chris Carrawell
1455



At this pace, He'll blow by Boozer, Henderson AND Quinn Cook in only 2 games!

[jimsumner]

Wow. You’ve got a python grip on that. :cool:

I still haven't gotten over Bob Verga getting strep throat in 1966.

And don't get me started on Casey Stengel not starting Whitey Ford three times in the 1960 World Series.

[rasputin]

I still haven't gotten over Bob Verga getting strep throat in 1966.

And don't get me started on Casey Stengel not starting Whitey Ford three times in the 1960 World Series.

Casey made a bunch of head-scratching decisions on WS starters. Among them was starting Larsen in gave 5 in 1956.

[SilkyJ]

Also my God, JWill did all that JWill stuff and is also that high on the 3 pt list? He's underappreciated IMO.

#3 in 3s, #8 in scoring, #4 in Assists IN JUST 3 YEARS. Crazy.

One more chart I noticed in the media guide that Grayson can climb is FT%. He's #7 entering the season and going 8-8 helped a bit. (Note: the media guide has a typo and only shows his totals through 2 years, though he is listed correctly at #7).

His 3 year total is 385-464 for a 83.0% per GoDuke StatsGeek (http://goduke.statsgeek.com/basketball-m/players/statlines.php?playerid=2757); after MSU he's now at 393-472 for 83.3%.

At his historical FT rate of 4.3/game he has an outside shot to jump to #6 (Tom Emma @ 84.3%). He'd need to shoot about 89% for the rest of the season, assuming 30 more games. At the max of 37 games he could slip to 88.2% and still make the jump. That would be a big jump in his historical FT% and 3-4 points higher than his best season at Duke: 84.9% as a frosh.

Conversely, if he matched last season's mark of 81.1%, certainly nothing to scoff at, he might slip behind Seth to #8 at 82.5%.

My guess is he's likely to shoot somewhere between the two in the 83-85% range and stay at #7. But if he stays healthy and is as good as he looks so far this year, I could see a scenario where he flirts with 90% and jumps to #6. I doubt he slips to #8.

(And not to overthink it, but the other issue is his FT rate. His historical average is 4.3/game, but as a soph he shot 7/game and last year was 4.6. He's only at 2.7 this year after 3 games and per Coach K's comments at the MSU presser: Grayson is hunting jumpers first, drives second...so tough to know if he'll see the FT line as much. The fewer he averages, the higher his average needs to be to make up for it and vice versa.)

[Newton_14]

Thanks to the guys putting in all the work to keep the numbers updated for Grayson. He is totally locked in. He was a machine last night. I think that's a glimpse of things to come...

[IrishDevil]

Also my God, JWill did all that JWill stuff and is also that high on the 3 pt list? He's underappreciated IMO.

Let's also not forget that he did all that in only 3 years. Remember Duhon's ...rough... Junior season? Had he only had his backcourt partner with him...

[peteandpete]

He would probably be number two on the list if he had been a varsity player as a freshman.

[CameronBornAndBred]

He would probably be number two on the list if he had been a varsity player as a freshman.
Think if he had been able to shoot threes.

[Olympic Fan]

Just went through the ACC book and saw that Mark Alarie stands as a significant target milestone for Grayson. The ACC lists the top 25 scorers in ACC history and as of now, Alarie is No. 25, the last guy listed.

So if Grayson can pass Alarie's 2136 (a reasonable goal), he'll be on the ACC top 25 list.

(Note: Grayson leads among active players --- almost 300 points ahead of Bonzie Colson)

[AGDukesky]

He would probably be number two on the list if he had been a varsity player as a freshman.

Yeah, it’s fun to track total points ranking but PPG is the better way to compare player scoring. Guys in the 60s were regularly playing 10+ fewer games a season. Plus the whole freshmen ineligible thing. When you add in the 3-point line and players leaving early, it is so hard to compare people across eras.

[Olympic Fan]

Yeah, it’s fun to track total points ranking but PPG is the better way to compare player scoring. Guys in the 60s were regularly playing 10+ fewer games a season. Plus the whole freshmen ineligible thing. When you add in the 3-point line and players leaving early, it is so hard to compare people across eras.

Well, Duke's top 10 in SCORING AVERAGE:

1. Heyman 25.1
2. Groat 23.0
3. Verga 22.0
4. Mullins 21.9
5. Redick 19.9
6. Denton 19.7
7. Jason Williams 19.3
8. Johnny Dawkins 19.2
9. Gminski 19.0
10. Spararkel 17.6

Actually, Jabari Parker averaged 19.1, but isn't listed (because he played just one year?)

Typing this ist reminds me once again that Randy Denton is the forgotten great in Duke history -- sixth all time in scoring average and first in rebounding (12.7 a game for his career).

The 3-point shot would also have made a huge difference for some early stars -- especially Verga, who probably average 3-6 3-pointers a game. Heyman was more a driver and a midrange shooter. I didn't see Groat, but his reputation was as a driver, not a shooter. Mullins shot some long ones, but he was mostly a mid-range shooter.

[budwom]

^ The "Curly Haired Giant."

[PirateDevil119]

^ The "Curly Haired Giant."

Randy is my brother in law's father and I can tell you he has no issue with being a forgotten great. One of the most humble people I have ever known. Doesnt even really talk about his time at Duke much, but you can find in Cameron most game days.

[Neals384]

Following Grayson's climb up the alltime list is going to be fun, especially because it may be a long time before anyone else joins the list (because of 1nDs).

[budwom]

Randy is my brother in law's father and I can tell you he has no issue with being a forgotten great. One of the most humble people I have ever known. Doesnt even really talk about his time at Duke much, but you can find in Cameron most game days.

I wrote sports for the Chronicle when Randy played, and he was a man of very few words, seemed very shy and, as you say, certainly humble.

[jv001]

I still haven't gotten over Bob Verga getting strep throat in 1966.

And don't get me started on Casey Stengel not starting Whitey Ford three times in the 1960 World Series.

I knew it, you are a Yankee fan. Well my Cardinals are a distant second in World Series Championships behind your Yankees. GoDuke!

[dukejim1]

Following Grayson's climb up the alltime list is going to be fun, especially because it may be a long time before anyone else joins the list (because of 1nDs).

Scheyer could have a great seat to watch Grayson knock him out of top 10 scorers

[curtis325]

I still haven't gotten over Bob Verga getting strep throat in 1966.

And don't get me started on Casey Stengel not starting Whitey Ford three times in the 1960 World Series.

Who was that shortstop on those 1960 World Serious champions?

Go Buccos!

[throatybeard]

Well, Duke's top 10 in SCORING AVERAGE:

1. Heyman 25.1
2. Groat 23.0
3. Verga 22.0
4. Mullins 21.9
5. Redick 19.9
6. Denton 19.7
7. Jason Williams 19.3
8. Johnny Dawkins 19.2
9. Gminski 19.0
10. Spararkel 17.6

Actually, Jabari Parker averaged 19.1, but isn't listed (because he played just one year?)

Typing this ist reminds me once again that Randy Denton is the forgotten great in Duke history -- sixth all time in scoring average and first in rebounding (12.7 a game for his career).

The 3-point shot would also have made a huge difference for some early stars -- especially Verga, who probably average 3-6 3-pointers a game. Heyman was more a driver and a midrange shooter. I didn't see Groat, but his reputation was as a driver, not a shooter. Mullins shot some long ones, but he was mostly a mid-range shooter.

So in addition to the 3 issue, what would those averages look like if you adjusted them to reflect tempo?

In stretches of the 1960s, there were a lot of games with high scores, high shot attempts, high rebounds. But at other times, like surrounding 1980, scores were lower and more keepaway was deployed, and Terry Holland and Dean Smith took turns stabbing the air out of the basketballs, with a toddler Tom Brady at their ankles, cackling maniacally.

Basically, it doesn't seem surprising that the guys at the top of that list are earlier guys except for Redick (the most 3-dependent average on the list). And then Gminski and Spanarkel are at the bottom of the top 10, when scoring averages were down in general.

If memory serves. I don't have any numbers in front of me. Points per possession, something something.

[jimsumner]

Who was that shortstop on those 1960 World Serious champions?

Go Buccos!


Dick Schofield? :)

[curtis325]

Dick Schofield? :)

Correct!

Ducky took over for MVP Dick Groat after Groat had a wrist injury.

[curtis325]

Correct!

Ducky took over for MVP Dick Groat after Groat had a wrist injury.

Groat did return for the Serious.

[DukeFanSince1990]

I saw this article about Grayson on my twitter feed. I thought is was well done.

http://www.wralsportsfan.com/hating-grayson-allen-is-a-you-problem/17117091/

[Olympic Fan]

So in addition to the 3 issue, what would those averages look like if you adjusted them to reflect tempo?


Not as much fluctuation in scoring as you'd think.

The Duke record of 92.2 ppg was set in 1965, but most of the scoring averages in that decade were in the mid-80s.

Actually, that's the norm -- somewhere from 82-88 ppg.

There have been some exceptions.

-- The last two years of Harold Bradley and the first year of Vic Bubas, Duke averaged in the mid-60s.
-- The Bucky Waters teams usually played in the mid-70s (with one year at 68.4)
-- The last two years of Bill Foster dropped off to the low 70s .. and the first two years of Coach K were in the 60s. That changed in 1983

There have been a few years in the high 70s since (an exceptional low of 70.4 in 2007), but also some years in the very high 80s and twice in the 90s (1999 and 2001).

Now, I understand that scoring average is not a total reflection of tempo (offensive efficiency plays a large part) ... still, it's a reflection of how the game was played. Heyman is interesting since the three years before his arrival were the lowest scoring stretch for Duke in the ACC era ... and in his three years, the scoring shot up to 81, 82 and 83 points a game.

[grad_devil]

Grayson scored 10 against Southern and 5 against Furman - not a great couple of games, but enough to pass Carlos Boozer into 30th place on the all-time scoring list.



Points as of 11/21/2017
1516



Min
Max


Games Remaining
28
35


Avg to top 20
8.64
6.91


Avg to 2k
17.29
13.83


Avg to top 10
20.04
16.03


Avg to JJ
44.75
35.80



Duke Career Scoring Leaders


NamePts


1
JJ Redick
2769


2
Johnny Dawkins
2556


3
Christian Laettner
2460


4
Kyle Singler
2392


5
Mike Gminski
2323


6
Danny Ferry
2155


7
Mark Alarie
2136


8
Gene Banks
2079


8
Jason Williams
2079


10
Jon Scheyer
2077


11
Jim Spanarkel
2012


12
Art Heyman
1984


12
Shane Battier
1984


14
Shelden Willaims
1928


15
Trajan Langdon
1974


16
Grant Hill
1924


17
Nolan Smith
1911


18
Dick Groat
1886


19
Jeff Mullins
1884


20
Bob Verga
1758


21
Bobby Hurley
1731


22
Randy Denton
1658


23
Ronnie Mayer
1647


24
Cherokee Parks
1643


25
Jeff Capel
1601


26
Daniel Ewing
1595


27
Thomas Hill
1594


28
Quinn Cook
1571


29
David Henderson
1570


30
Grayson Allen
1516


31
Carlos Boozer
1506

[DukeTrinity11]

I predict that Grayson will end up at #8 in our all time scoring list behind Alarie but barely nudging by Gene Banks, Jon Scheyer and Jason Williams.

[AGDukesky]

I hope he passes Quinn in Portland

[BandAlum83]

I hope he passes Quinn in Portland

Not an unreasonable hope. >55 points in 3 games? I really do hope so as well.

[CDu]

Grayson scored 10 against Southern and 5 against Furman - not a great couple of games, but enough to pass Carlos Boozer into 30th place on the all-time scoring list.



Points as of 11/21/2017
1516



Min
Max


Games Remaining
28
35


Avg to top 20
8.64
6.91


Avg to 2k
17.29
13.83


Avg to top 10
20.04
16.03


Avg to JJ
44.75
35.80




I would propose dropping the "Avg to JJ" as that simply isn't going to happen. Maybe a more interesting would be "Avg to top 5", which at least has an outside chance of happening.

[duke4ever19]

I would propose dropping the "Avg to JJ" as that simply isn't going to happen. Maybe a more interesting would be "Avg to top 5", which at least has an outside chance of happening.

I agree.

At this point Grayson would have to be putting up cartoonish/Maravich numbers from here to the end of the season in order to get there.

Remember "Jimmer fever" a few years ago? Well, Jimmer Fredette was averaging 28.9 points per game. That's a lot of points, but it still wouldn't be good enough to catch JJ.

[grad_devil]

I would propose dropping the "Avg to JJ" as that simply isn't going to happen. Maybe a more interesting would be "Avg to top 5", which at least has an outside chance of happening.

I'll leave the JJ numbers, just because it will remind us all what a scoring savant he was, but I'll add the "Avg to top 5" numbers, even though Grayson needs to find his shot again, IMHO, if he's to reach that mark.





Points as of 11/25/2017
1542



Min
Max


Games Remaining
26
33


Avg to top 20
8.31
6.55


Avg to 2k
17.62
13.88


Avg to top 10
20.58
16.21


Avg to top 5
30.04
23.67


Avg to JJ
47.19
37.18



Duke Career Scoring Leaders


NamePts


1
JJ Redick
2769


2
Johnny Dawkins
2556


3
Christian Laettner
2460


4
Kyle Singler
2392


5
Mike Gminski
2323


6
Danny Ferry
2155


7
Mark Alarie
2136


8
Gene Banks
2079


8
Jason Williams
2079


10
Jon Scheyer
2077


11
Jim Spanarkel
2012


12
Art Heyman
1984


12
Shane Battier
1984


14
Shelden Willaims
1928


15
Trajan Langdon
1974


16
Grant Hill
1924


17
Nolan Smith
1911


18
Dick Groat
1886


19
Jeff Mullins
1884


20
Bob Verga
1758


21
Bobby Hurley
1731


22
Randy Denton
1658


23
Ronnie Mayer
1647


24
Cherokee Parks
1643


25
Jeff Capel
1601


26
Daniel Ewing
1595


27
Thomas Hill
1594


28
Quinn Cook
1571


29
David Henderson
1570


30
Grayson Allen
1542


31
Carlos Boozer
1506

[grad_devil]

I've been trying to update this thread every 2 games - at least for now. It isn't getting a lot of interest at this point, but let's hope it does as the countdown to 2k gets closer.

Grayson scored 14 against Florida and 21 against Indiana, bringing his career total to 1577, and his 17-18 ppg to an even 17.0.

Along the way, he passed both David Henderson and Quinn Cook on the all-time scoring list, taking him to #28. Next on the list? Weeping Thomas Hill, only 17 points away at 1594.

Barring injury, Grayson will almost certainly make the top 20 in Duke history, needing only 7.5 ppg to pass Bob Verga, given the minimum number of contests remaining. Making the top 10 is doable, at his current clip of 17.0 ppg, but Duke needs several postseason games, or Allen needs to up his average a bit. At this point, I'd say the top 5 is out of the discussion, as he needs to average 24ppg from here on out, and Duke needs the max (31) number of games possible.



Points as of 11/30/2017
1577


PPG as of 11/30/2017
17.0



Min
Max


Games Remaining
24
31


Avg to top 20
7.54
5.84


Avg to 2k
17.63
13.65


Avg to top 10
20.83
16.13


Avg to top 5
31.08
24.06


Avg to JJ
49.67
38.45



Duke Career Scoring Leaders


NamePts


1
JJ Redick
2769


2
Johnny Dawkins
2556


3
Christian Laettner
2460


4
Kyle Singler
2392


5
Mike Gminski
2323


6
Danny Ferry
2155


7
Mark Alarie
2136


8
Gene Banks
2079


8
Jason Williams
2079


10
Jon Scheyer
2077


11
Jim Spanarkel
2012


12
Art Heyman
1984


12
Shane Battier
1984


14
Shelden Willaims
1928


15
Trajan Langdon
1974


16
Grant Hill
1924


17
Nolan Smith
1911


18
Dick Groat
1886


19
Jeff Mullins
1884


20
Bob Verga
1758


21
Bobby Hurley
1731


22
Randy Denton
1658


23
Ronnie Mayer
1647


24
Cherokee Parks
1643


25
Jeff Capel
1601


26
Daniel Ewing
1595


27
Thomas Hill
1594


28
Grayson Allen
1577


29
Quinn Cook
1571


30
David Henderson
1570


31
Carlos Boozer
1506

[CrazyNotCrazie]

I've been trying to update this thread every 2 games - at least for now. It isn't getting a lot of interest at this point, but let's hope it does as the countdown to 2k gets closer.

Grayson scored 14 against Florida and 21 against Indiana, bringing his career total to 1577, and his 17-18 ppg to an even 17.0.

Along the way, he passed both David Henderson and Quinn Cook on the all-time scoring list, taking him to #28. Next on the list? Weeping Thomas Hill, only 17 points away at 1594.

Barring injury, Grayson will almost certainly make the top 20 in Duke history, needing only 7.5 ppg to pass Bob Verga, given the minimum number of contests remaining. Making the top 10 is doable, at his current clip of 17.0 ppg, but Duke needs several postseason games, or Allen needs to up his average a bit. At this point, I'd say the top 5 is out of the discussion, as he needs to average 24ppg from here on out, and Duke needs the max (31) number of games possible.



Points as of 11/30/2017
1577


PPG as of 11/30/2017
17.0



Min
Max


Games Remaining
24
31


Avg to top 20
7.54
5.84


Avg to 2k
17.63
13.65


Avg to top 10
20.83
16.13


Avg to top 5
31.08
24.06


Avg to JJ
49.67
38.45



Duke Career Scoring Leaders


NamePts


1
JJ Redick
2769


2
Johnny Dawkins
2556


3
Christian Laettner
2460


4
Kyle Singler
2392


5
Mike Gminski
2323


6
Danny Ferry
2155


7
Mark Alarie
2136


8
Gene Banks
2079


8
Jason Williams
2079


10
Jon Scheyer
2077


11
Jim Spanarkel
2012


12
Art Heyman
1984


12
Shane Battier
1984


14
Shelden Willaims
1928


15
Trajan Langdon
1974


16
Grant Hill
1924


17
Nolan Smith
1911


18
Dick Groat
1886


19
Jeff Mullins
1884


20
Bob Verga
1758


21
Bobby Hurley
1731


22
Randy Denton
1658


23
Ronnie Mayer
1647


24
Cherokee Parks
1643


25
Jeff Capel
1601


26
Daniel Ewing
1595


27
Thomas Hill
1594


28
Grayson Allen
1577


29
Quinn Cook
1571


30
David Henderson
1570


31
Carlos Boozer
1506



Thanks for the updates - I can't spork you but they are greatly appreciated. It looks like Grayson will hopefully pass Coach Capel and make his way into the top 25 in the next week. A while ago someone posted that he was just outside the top 10 for three pointers made - periodic updates on that as well would be great!

One quick question - I think you have Shelden's total or place on the list wrong as he seems to be out of order?

[BandAlum83]

There is absolute interest in this thread from me, just not much to comment on as we watch him climb the board.

Keep up the good work, it is appreciated!

[atoomer0881]

There is absolute interest in this thread from me, just not much to comment on as we watch him climb the board.

Keep up the good work, it is appreciated!

I second this!!! Super interest from me on this thread. I like coming back every game or so to see where he stands. I'd love for him to make it to the top 10. And the nice thing about that is if he does, there's only 2 points that would separate him from being #10 and #8 on the all time scoring list. Really hoping he can make it to #8. LET'S GO DUKE!!!

Also just wanted to add how disgusting those chants were last night at Indiana. Those fans should be ashamed of themselves.

[BandAlum83]

I second this!!! Super interest from me on this thread. I like coming back every game or so to see where he stands. I'd love for him to make it to the top 10. And the nice thing about that is if he does, there's only 2 points that would separate him from being #10 and #8 on the all time scoring list. Really hoping he can make it to #8. LET'S GO DUKE!!!

Also just wanted to add how disgusting those chants were last night at Indiana. Those fans should be ashamed of themselves.

I didn't hear, or couldn't distinguish what they were saying. Care to share?

[JNort]

There is absolute interest in this thread from me, just not much to comment on as we watch him climb the board.

Keep up the good work, it is appreciated!

Same.

[chrishoke]

Think JJ chants at Cole Field House.

[BandAlum83]

Think JJ chants at Cole Field House.

Ouch. I didn't think any schools could be as terrible fans as MD.

My wife went to MD, and after attending a Duke game with me at Cole in the late 80's, she doesn't root for Maryland anymore.

[atoomer0881]

I didn't hear, or couldn't distinguish what they were saying. Care to share?

They were chanting F You Grayson. And seemed to be proud of it. But Grayson kept his cool like the leader he is, and responded by hitting daggers on the court. Brought me back to the days Maryland fans did the same to JJ. Just disgusting.
https://twitter.com/IUBarstool/status/936081731861565440

[grad_devil]

One quick question - I think you have Shelden's total or place on the list wrong as he seems to be out of order?

Good catch! I didn't even notice. The point totals were correct, the order was wrong. Here's the correct snippet:



12
Art Heyman
1984


12
Shane Battier
1984


14
Trajan Langdon
1974


15
Shelden Willaims
1928


16
Grant Hill
1924

[BandAlum83]

Good catch! I didn't even notice. The point totals were correct, the order was wrong. Here's the correct snippet:



12
Art Heyman
1984


12
Shane Battier
1984


14
Trajan Langdon
1974


15
Shelden Willaims
1928


16
Grant Hill
1924



Might as well fix the typo in Shelden's last name while you are at it...

[grad_devil]

Might as well fix the typo in Shelden's last name while you are at it...

Somewhat ironic that it's the last name, no?

Will do - and thanks!

[elvis14]

grad_devil, count me as another reader who really appreciates your efforts in the thread. Just because GA's had a couple of low scoring games doesn't mean my interest wanes.

[grad_devil]

I went ahead and compiled Grayson's 3FG stats - well, at least 3FG made. He's only 1 away from tying Daniel Ewing for #10 on the 3FGA chart, but that's less interesting (to me).

Barring injury, Grayson will make the top 10 in 3FG soon, as he only needs 7 to bump Seth Curry off of the list.

Making the top 3 isn't out of the question, assuming he picks up his pace (3.0 3FG/game) slightly, and we have deep tournament runs.

Just like the scoring title, JJ is well out of reach.



Stats as of 11/30/2017


Grayson's 3FG
216


Season Avg 3FG/Game
3.0



Min
Max


Games Remaining
24
31


Avg to top 10
0.29
0.23


Avg to top 5
2.13
1.65


Avg to top 3
4.04
3.13


Avg to JJ
10.04
7.77



Duke Career 3FG Leaders


NamePts


1
JJ Redick
457


2
Trajan Langdon
342


3
Jason Williams
313


4
Jon Scheyer
297


5
Kyle Singler
267


6
Bobby Hurley
264


7
Shane Battier
246


8
Quinn Cook
236


9
Andre Dawkins
231


10
Seth Curry
223



?
Grayson Allen
216

[Kedsy]

So Grayson has a decent shot to get to 3rd all time in made three-pointers? Not bad. Thanks for posting all this, grad_devil.

[cato]

Somewhat ironic that it's the last name, no?

Will do - and thanks!

Indeed. That took some special effort!

Another voice in the chorus here. I appreciate the updates.

[grad_devil]

Since there was a lot of movement on the career list after the game with SD, I figured I would post an update.

With 25 on Saturday, Grayson puts himself in 25th place, passing Thomas Hill, Daniel Ewing, and Associate Head Coach Jeff Capel.

Grayson still seems to be on pace top 2K for his career and, given his current average, break into the top 10. The top 5 is unlikely, and JJ's number are safe, although I wouldn't mind seeing Grayson go on a tear and threaten them :p

Also, thanks for all of the kudos - I wasn't searching for them (they're appreciated), but I was trying to explain why I was lazy, and not updating the thread after every contest :)



Points as of 12/04/2017
1602


Season PPG
17.8



Min
Max


Games Remaining
23
30


Avg to top 20
6.78
5.20


Avg to 2k
17.30
13.27


Avg to top 10
20.65
15.83


Avg to top 5
31.35
24.03


Avg to JJ
50.74
38.90



Duke Career Scoring Leaders


NamePts


1
JJ Redick
2769


2
Johnny Dawkins
2556


3
Christian Laettner
2460


4
Kyle Singler
2392


5
Mike Gminski
2323


6
Danny Ferry
2155


7
Mark Alarie
2136


8
Gene Banks
2079


8
Jason Williams
2079


10
Jon Scheyer
2077


11
Jim Spanarkel
2012


12
Art Heyman
1984


12
Shane Battier
1984


14
Trajan Langdon
1974


15
Shelden Williams
1928


16
Grant Hill
1924


17
Nolan Smith
1911


18
Dick Groat
1886


19
Jeff Mullins
1884


20
Bob Verga
1758


21
Bobby Hurley
1731


22
Randy Denton
1658


23
Ronnie Mayer
1647


24
Cherokee Parks
1643


25
Grayson Allen
1602


26
Jeff Capel
1601


27
Daniel Ewing
1595


28
Thomas Hill
1594

[Furniture]

Read this on another site.
An Indiana fans view on Grayson.

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

First off, what a great start to the season for you guys. These freshmen, especially Bagley.. just, wow. Talk about living up to the hype.

Anyway, that's not the only reason I came to your board this morning. Like many college basketball fans I expect, I had a generally negative perception of Grayson Allen. Really good player, but I saw the "lowlights" and viewed him mostly in that light.

Last night, he showed me something to enhance my view of him in both respects player and person.

1. He's clearly more than just a "really good player." Some of those shots he hit, my word. If he hit those at home I would have been amazed. At one of the toughest road venues in basketball? Goodness. His athleticism. I knew it was better than most think, but he showed it off last night. This team of talented freshmen would be very good without Allen had he chose to start making money this year, but with him - they have a chance to be special (and are well on their way).

2. His demeanor last night I thought was fantastic. It appears he's learned from his past and grown from it which is always great to see and one of the reasons I think many of us love college hoops. The students (I'm sure he's used to this) gave him tons of grief. He took (and gave) a hard foul on a fast break. Reactions both times - perfect. And now I see his post game comments with nothing but great things to say about the experience he had. He's a leader now.

Anyway, I was impressed - and wanted to post it here for some reason. I hope last night gave us Hoosier fans a glimpse of what could be with Archie Miller as coach. Only time will tell, but it was a fun game that I really enjoyed despite the loss.

[DavidBenAkiva]

Read this on another site.
An Indiana fans view on Grayson.

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

First off, what a great start to the season for you guys. These freshmen, especially Bagley.. just, wow. Talk about living up to the hype.

Anyway, that's not the only reason I came to your board this morning. Like many college basketball fans I expect, I had a generally negative perception of Grayson Allen. Really good player, but I saw the "lowlights" and viewed him mostly in that light.

Last night, he showed me something to enhance my view of him in both respects player and person.

1. He's clearly more than just a "really good player." Some of those shots he hit, my word. If he hit those at home I would have been amazed. At one of the toughest road venues in basketball? Goodness. His athleticism. I knew it was better than most think, but he showed it off last night. This team of talented freshmen would be very good without Allen had he chose to start making money this year, but with him - they have a chance to be special (and are well on their way).

2. His demeanor last night I thought was fantastic. It appears he's learned from his past and grown from it which is always great to see and one of the reasons I think many of us love college hoops. The students (I'm sure he's used to this) gave him tons of grief. He took (and gave) a hard foul on a fast break. Reactions both times - perfect. And now I see his post game comments with nothing but great things to say about the experience he had. He's a leader now.

Anyway, I was impressed - and wanted to post it here for some reason. I hope last night gave us Hoosier fans a glimpse of what could be with Archie Miller as coach. Only time will tell, but it was a fun game that I really enjoyed despite the loss.

It's amazing to see what people can notice when they take their blinders off. Great read. Thanks for posting!

I try to be objective when it comes to other teams and players. Over the past couple of seasons, I've even grown to enjoy watching Kentucky games because I recognize the weird and unique experiment in basketball happening there. Can Cal form an entirely new team that plays with effort again this year? It's a fascinating situation, and one we're getting to see happen in Durham to a certain degree (Duke tends to have a couple more older players in the rotation). It's nice to see that another fan can step back and take in an amazing basketball player.

[superdave]

It's amazing to see what people can notice when they take their blinders off. Great read. Thanks for posting!

I try to be objective when it comes to other teams and players. Over the past couple of seasons, I've even grown to enjoy watching Kentucky games because I recognize the weird and unique experiment in basketball happening there. Can Cal form an entirely new team that plays with effort again this year? It's a fascinating situation, and one we're getting to see happen in Durham to a certain degree (Duke tends to have a couple more older players in the rotation). It's nice to see that another fan can step back and take in an amazing basketball player.

This is why Espn is fading. They pick a narrative, develop it, milk it, drive it into the ground. You learn nothing and are not entertained. It's not about the sports for them, it's about driving their preferred narrative to get ratings. Humbug!

[DavidBenAkiva]

This is why Espn is fading. They pick a narrative, develop it, milk it, drive it into the ground. You learn nothing and are not entertained. It's not about the sports for them, it's about driving their preferred narrative to get ratings. Humbug!

But then, aren't you pushing a narrative on ESPN? I think the easier explanation is that ESPN hitched its wagon to cable rather than to developing its own pay-for-service streaming service. As more people cut the cord, ESPN is losing revenue. They should have started an individual streaming service, like HBO did, years ago. That explanation doesn't serve your criticism of ESPN, which I find to be valid. But I don't think it accounts for the loss in viewership.

[throatybeard]

Remember "Jimmer fever" a few years ago?


In spite of my attempts to forget it.

[superdave]

But then, aren't you pushing a narrative on ESPN? I think the easier explanation is that ESPN hitched its wagon to cable rather than to developing its own pay-for-service streaming service. As more people cut the cord, ESPN is losing revenue. They should have started an individual streaming service, like HBO did, years ago. That explanation doesn't serve your criticism of ESPN, which I find to be valid. But I don't think it accounts for the loss in viewership.

I'm not talking about cable cutters, but about how Espn went away from highlights more towards and Entertainment Tonight glitzy type of programming. I recall Dan Patrick moving back onto SportsCenter 15 years ago and badgering Mark Cuban in an interview. I thought to myself, wow, this isnt highlights or reporting but story-pushing. They did it to JJ Redick and Grayson Allen, promoted Skip Bayless and started showing music videos and tweets instead of regular highlights.

[johnb]

GA passed one of my favorite Blue Devils, David Henderson, last week. Other 1980's players were and are more visible, but Henderson (from what I remember) was K's earliest tough-as-nails wing player. Henderson might also have been K's first North Carolina player who refused to believe rival recruiters when they insisted that only middle and upper class recruits would be welcome at a place like Duke. I couldn't locate stories about his recruitment, but I do recall that he grew up in a cabin in the woods in one of NC's poorest counties, that he drove the school bus, that his principal had photos of two people in his office (his own wife and David), and that, when he signed his LOI, everyone welled up in tears, including our coaches.

In case you missed it, here's an article from earlier this year about his work as a scout for Cleveland.
http://www.delawareonline.com/story/sports/college/ud/2017/02/27/scouts-honor-ex-hen-coach-henderson-thrives-cavs/98473748/

[uh_no]

I'm not talking about cable cutters, but about how Espn went away from highlights more towards and Entertainment Tonight glitzy type of programming. I recall Dan Patrick moving back onto SportsCenter 15 years ago and badgering Mark Cuban in an interview. I thought to myself, wow, this isnt highlights or reporting but story-pushing. They did it to JJ Redick and Grayson Allen, promoted Skip Bayless and started showing music videos and tweets instead of regular highlights.

i remember when they used to get through EVERY mlb game over the course of the show. It might just be 10-20 seconds, but you would get the highlights.

Now unless some guy hits for the cycle and then instigates a bench clearing brawl by taking selfies at the plate, you're lucky if they even show the score on the bottom scroll.

Sports broadcasting in this country is in an exceptionally bad place. The only exception might be home-town broadcasters for baseball, and maybe a few select other teams in other sports. Any national game is the worst. god. joe buck? Kill me. The only national level broadcaster I'm ever excited to hear anymore is Jon Gruden.

College is undoubtedly the worst....the guys they pull out to do this minor CFB games on ESPn3? Do they pick these guys off the streets? as we all know, the state of major CBB games is pitiful as well.

[grad_devil]

Here are the updated point totals after the St. Francis and BC contests.

I've expanded the table to show the entire range of possible contests (not just the min & max), and finally excluded JJ's numbers. If Grayson starts lighting it up to the tune of 45+ a game, I'll start including them again :)

Grayson didn't pass anyone on the all-time list during this update, but Cherokee Parks (+13) and Ronnie Mayer (+17) are in his sights.



Points as of 12/10/2017
1630


Season PPG
17.2



Min






Max


Games Remaining
21
22
23
24
25
26
27
28


Avg to top 20
6.10
5.82
5.57
5.33
5.12
4.92
4.74
4.57


Avg to 2k
17.62
16.82
16.09
15.42
14.80
14.23
13.70
13.21


Avg to top 10
21.29
20.32
19.43
18.63
17.88
17.19
16.56
15.96


Avg to top 5
33.00
31.50
30.13
28.88
27.72
26.65
25.67
24.75



Duke Career Scoring Leaders


NamePts


1
JJ Redick
2769


2
Johnny Dawkins
2556


3
Christian Laettner
2460


4
Kyle Singler
2392


5
Mike Gminski
2323


6
Danny Ferry
2155


7
Mark Alarie
2136


8
Gene Banks
2079


8
Jason Williams
2079


10
Jon Scheyer
2077


11
Jim Spanarkel
2012


12
Art Heyman
1984


12
Shane Battier
1984


14
Trajan Langdon
1974


15
Shelden Williams
1928


16
Grant Hill
1924


17
Nolan Smith
1911


18
Dick Groat
1886


19
Jeff Mullins
1884


20
Bob Verga
1758


21
Bobby Hurley
1731


22
Randy Denton
1658


23
Ronnie Mayer
1647


24
Cherokee Parks
1643


25
Grayson Allen
1630


26
Jeff Capel
1601


27
Daniel Ewing
1595


28
Thomas Hill
1594

[grad_devil]

Grayson also cracked into the top 10 in 3FG this week, tying Seth Curry for 10th on list with 223. He should make the top 5, and has an outside chance at the top 3.

Not included, is Grayson's #9 ranking on the 3FGA list, with 569.




Stats as of 12/10/2017


Grayson's 3FG
223


Season Avg 3FG/Game
2.8



Min
Max


Games Remaining
21
28


Avg to top 5
2.10
1.57


Avg to top 3
4.29
3.21


Avg to JJ
11.14
8.36



Duke Career 3FG Leaders


NamePts


1
JJ Redick
457


2
Trajan Langdon
342


3
Jason Williams
313


4
Jon Scheyer
297


5
Kyle Singler
267


6
Bobby Hurley
264


7
Shane Battier
246


8
Quinn Cook
236


9
Andre Dawkins
231


10
Seth Curry
223



10
Grayson Allen
223

[arnie]

Seems we could play at least one more game than max games left in above table. We could play 4 games in ACC tourney (did that last year). Don’t think we could fall so far in standings that we play 5 in tourney. 😛

[grad_devil]

Seems we could play at least one more game than max games left in above table. We could play 4 games in ACC tourney (did that last year). Don’t think we could fall so far in standings that we play 5 in tourney. 😛

That's true. I'm assuming a top 4 ACC finish; I'll add a game to the 'max' category if it looks like that's out of the question. I just went with all of the pre-season talking heads re our ACC tournament seed.

[grad_devil]

With an efficient 16 points against Evansville, Grayson passed the Chief, and is now in 24th place, 1 point behind Ronnie Mayer.



Points as of 12/21/2017
1646


Season PPG
17.1



Min






Max


Games Remaining
20
21
22
23
24
25
26
27


Avg to top 20
5.60
5.33
5.09
4.87
4.67
4.48
4.31
4.15


Avg to 2k
17.70
16.86
16.09
15.39
14.75
14.16
13.62
13.11


Avg to top 10
21.55
20.52
19.59
18.74
17.96
17.24
16.58
15.96


Avg to top 5
33.85
32.24
30.77
29.43
28.21
27.08
26.04
25.07



Duke Career Scoring Leaders


NamePts


1
JJ Redick
2769


2
Johnny Dawkins
2556


3
Christian Laettner
2460


4
Kyle Singler
2392


5
Mike Gminski
2323


6
Danny Ferry
2155


7
Mark Alarie
2136


8
Gene Banks
2079


8
Jason Williams
2079


10
Jon Scheyer
2077


11
Jim Spanarkel
2012


12
Art Heyman
1984


12
Shane Battier
1984


14
Trajan Langdon
1974


15
Shelden Williams
1928


16
Grant Hill
1924


17
Nolan Smith
1911


18
Dick Groat
1886


19
Jeff Mullins
1884


20
Bob Verga
1758


21
Bobby Hurley
1731


22
Randy Denton
1658


23
Ronnie Mayer
1647


24
Grayson Allen
1646


25
Cherokee Parks
1643

[BandAlum83]

With an efficient 16 points against Evansville, Grayson passed the Chief, and is now in 24th place, 1 point behind Ronnie Mayer.



Points as of 12/21/2017
1646


Season PPG
17.1



Min






Max


Games Remaining
20
21
22
23
24
25
26
27


Avg to top 20
5.60
5.33
5.09
4.87
4.67
4.48
4.31
4.15


Avg to 2k
17.70
16.86
16.09
15.39
14.75
14.16
13.62
13.11


Avg to top 10
21.55
20.52
19.59
18.74
17.96
17.24
16.58
15.96


Avg to top 5
33.85
32.24
30.77
29.43
28.21
27.08
26.04
25.07



Duke Career Scoring Leaders


NamePts


1
JJ Redick
2769


2
Johnny Dawkins
2556


3
Christian Laettner
2460


4
Kyle Singler
2392


5
Mike Gminski
2323


6
Danny Ferry
2155


7
Mark Alarie
2136


8
Gene Banks
2079


8
Jason Williams
2079


10
Jon Scheyer
2077


11
Jim Spanarkel
2012


12
Art Heyman
1984


12
Shane Battier
1984


14
Trajan Langdon
1974


15
Shelden Williams
1928


16
Grant Hill
1924


17
Nolan Smith
1911


18
Dick Groat
1886


19
Jeff Mullins
1884


20
Bob Verga
1758


21
Bobby Hurley
1731


22
Randy Denton
1658


23
Ronnie Mayer
1647


24
Grayson Allen
1646


25
Cherokee Parks
1643




Top 10 is looking more remote.

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

Top 10 is looking more remote.

I would say a lot depends on how many more games are played.

[DukieInBrasil]

although not related to his quest for points or 3s, i just thought i'd point out that Grayson has made as many FTs as 3s this year; 38.
Raise your hand if you thought that would be the case this far into the year.

[Pghdukie]

Won't happen, but it would have been nice to see Grayson pass Dick Groat in Pittsburgh.

[JohnJ]

Anyone know how Ronnie Mayer played four years at Duke back in the 50’s?

[-jk]

Anyone know how Ronnie Mayer played four years at Duke back in the 50’s?

I think the freshman rule kicked in later than that. I'm sure one of our more, um, experienced members will correct me if I'm wrong...

-jk

[throatybeard]

^ Yeah, same for Belmont I think.

[Bob Green]

Anyone know how Ronnie Mayer played four years at Duke back in the 50’s?

Due to war, freshmen ineligibility rules were relaxed multiple times:

http://www.collegian.psu.edu/archives/article_51bec9ab-842c-5636-917b-b05073450caa.html


However, with the outbreak of World War I in 1917, the regulations regarding freshman participation changed. Due to declining college enrollment and increased enlistment in the army, several colleges began to allow freshmen to participate.

In 1943, the NCAA followed suit, repealing the freshman prohibition on account of World War II. When American involvement in the Korean War escalated in the early 1950s, most major conferences repealed the measure once again.

[JohnJ]

Thanks for the responses. I didn’t know all this.

[DukieInBrasil]

Top 10 is looking more remote.

Grayson jumps up to #22 on the All-Time Scoring list to 1668 pts passing Randy Denton. He now has 226 3FGs.

[DU82]

Grayson jumps up to #22 on the All-Time Scoring list to 1668 pts passing Randy Denton. He now has 226 3FGs.

And Randy was in the stands yesterday.

[sagegrouse]

Anyone know how Ronnie Mayer played four years at Duke back in the 50’s?


I think the freshman rule kicked in later than that. I'm sure one of our more, um, experienced members will correct me if I'm wrong...

-jk
-jk is correct. The 1952-53 Duke roster showed freshmen, but the 1953-54 and later rosters did not. Freshmen did not appear on the varsity roster until 1972-73 (Dave O'Connell [!!!]. Willie Hodge and Terry Chili, plus some others).

[grad_devil]

With 30 total points in the past 2 games, Grayson passes Ronnie Mayer (24) and Randy Denton (23) on the all-time scoring list, moving into 22nd place.

Currently averaging 16.8 points, making 2k is certainly possible, and there's still an outside chance he could break into the top 10, but that would only come with a deep postseason run. I removed the 'Avg to top 5' category, as Duke would need to play the maximum number of games and Grayson must average over 25ppg to make that mark.



Points as of 01/09/2018
1676


Season PPG
16.8



Min






Max


Games Remaining
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25


Avg to top 20
4.56

4.32

4.10

3.90

3.73

3.57

3.42

3.28



Avg to 2k
18.00

17.05

16.20

15.43

14.73

14.09

13.50

12.96



Avg to top 10
22.28

21.11

20.05

19.10

18.23

17.43

16.71

16.04




Duke Career Scoring Leaders


NamePts


1
JJ Redick
2769


2
Johnny Dawkins
2556


3
Christian Laettner
2460


4
Kyle Singler
2392


5
Mike Gminski
2323


6
Danny Ferry
2155


7
Mark Alarie
2136


8
Gene Banks
2079


8
Jason Williams
2079


10
Jon Scheyer
2077


11
Jim Spanarkel
2012


12
Art Heyman
1984


12
Shane Battier
1984


14
Trajan Langdon
1974


15
Shelden Williams
1928


16
Grant Hill
1924


17
Nolan Smith
1911


18
Dick Groat
1886


19
Jeff Mullins
1884


20
Bob Verga
1758


21
Bobby Hurley
1731



22
Grayson Allen
1676



23
Randy Denton
1658


24
Ronnie Mayer
1647

[grad_devil]

Stats as of 01/09/2018


Grayson's 3FG
231


Season Avg 3FG/Game
2.8



Min
Max


Games Remaining
18
25


Avg to top 5
2.00
1.44


Avg to top 3
4.56
3.28


Avg to JJ
12.56
9.04



Duke Career 3FG Leaders


NamePts


1
JJ Redick
457


2
Trajan Langdon
342


3
Jason Williams
313


4
Jon Scheyer
297


5
Kyle Singler
267


6
Bobby Hurley
264


7
Shane Battier
246


8
Quinn Cook
236


9
Andre Dawkins
231


9
Grayson Allen
231



11
Seth Curry
223

[Saratoga2]

Seems like Grad Devil has lost interest in this thread, but since the NC State game, Grayson has gone 9 for 36 from the 3 point line giving him 240 career 3's and now has 1727 points. He is poised to move up the list in the next outing or two.

[DukieInBrasil]

Seems like Grad Devil has lost interest in this thread, but since the NC State game, Grayson has gone 9 for 36 from the 3 point line giving him 240 career 3's and now has 1727 points. He is poised to move up the list in the next outing or two.

puts him at #8 in career 3s at Duke, poised to pass Shane Battier soon, but still at #21 in scoring, 4 pts behind Robert Hurley.

[grad_devil]

Seems like Grad Devil has lost interest in this thread, but since the NC State game, Grayson has gone 9 for 36 from the 3 point line giving him 240 career 3's and now has 1727 points. He is poised to move up the list in the next outing or two.

Ha! No, I haven't lost interest, I just keep hoping that there will be some movement in all-time standings. Unfortunately, due to Grayson's last several outings, that hasn't happened :( He did squeak by Bobby Hurley against UVA, putting him in 21st place all-time (1732).

Here's the post-UVA/pre-ND update:



Points as of 01/29/2018
1676


Season PPG
14.7



Min






Max


Games Remaining
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19



Avg to top 20
2.17

2.00

1.86

1.73

1.63

1.53

1.44

1.37



Avg to 2k
22.33

20.62

19.14

17.87

16.75

15.76

14.89

14.11



Avg to top 10
28.75

26.54

24.64

23.00

21.56

20.29

19.17

18.16




Duke Career Scoring Leaders


NamePts


1
JJ Redick
2769


2
Johnny Dawkins
2556


3
Christian Laettner
2460


4
Kyle Singler
2392


5
Mike Gminski
2323


6
Danny Ferry
2155


7
Mark Alarie
2136


8
Gene Banks
2079


8
Jason Williams
2079


10
Jon Scheyer
2077


11
Jim Spanarkel
2012


12
Art Heyman
1984


12
Shane Battier
1984


14
Trajan Langdon
1974


15
Shelden Williams
1928


16
Grant Hill
1924


17
Nolan Smith
1911


18
Dick Groat
1886


19
Jeff Mullins
1884


20
Bob Verga
1758



21
Grayson Allen
1732



22
Bobby Hurley
1731

[grad_devil]

Grayson passed Quinn Cook, and has claimed sole posession of 8th place all time, with 240 3FG. Shane Battier is just ahead at #7, with 246.





Stats as of 01/29/2018


Grayson's 3FG
240


Season Avg 3FG/Game
2.4



Min
Max


Games Remaining
12
19


Avg to top 5
2.25
1.42


Avg to top 3
6.08
3.84


Avg to JJ
18.08
11.42



Duke Career 3FG Leaders


NamePts


1
JJ Redick
457


2
Trajan Langdon
342


3
Jason Williams
313


4
Jon Scheyer
297


5
Kyle Singler
267


6
Bobby Hurley
264


7
Shane Battier
246



8
Grayson Allen
240



9
Quinn Cook
236


10
Andre Dawkins
231



11
Seth Curry
223

[grad_devil]

Since the last update, Grayson has officially passed Bob Verga to overtake the 20th slot on the all-time scoring list - congratulations! He needs 96 points to overtake Jeff Mullins at #19.

Scoring 2k points is looking less likely, due to his recent scoring troubles. He's averaging 14.6 ppg this season, meaning at his current rate Duke would need to
play deep into the postseason (ACC, NCAA tourneys) - make both championships, actually - for him to score 2k.



Points as of 02/12/2018
1789


Season PPG
14.6



Min






Max


Games Remaining
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15


Avg to 2k
26.38

23.44

21.10

19.18

17.58

16.23

15.07

14.07



Avg to top 10
36.00

32.00

28.80

26.18

24.00

22.15

20.57

19.20




Duke Career Scoring Leaders


NamePts


1
JJ Redick
2769


2
Johnny Dawkins
2556


3
Christian Laettner
2460


4
Kyle Singler
2392


5
Mike Gminski
2323


6
Danny Ferry
2155


7
Mark Alarie
2136


8
Gene Banks
2079


8
Jason Williams
2079


10
Jon Scheyer
2077


11
Jim Spanarkel
2012


12
Art Heyman
1984


12
Shane Battier
1984


14
Trajan Langdon
1974


15
Shelden Williams
1928


16
Grant Hill
1924


17
Nolan Smith
1911


18
Dick Groat
1886


19
Jeff Mullins
1884



20
Grayson Allen
1789


21
Bob Verga
1758

[grad_devil]

Grayson passes Shane Battier to take possession of 7th place on the all-time 3FG list.





Stats as of 02/12/2018


Grayson's 3FG
249


Season Avg 3FG/Game
2.4



Min
Max


Games Remaining
8
15


Avg to top 5
2.25
1.20


Avg to top 3
8.00
4.27


Avg to JJ
26.00
13.87



Duke Career 3FG Leaders


NamePts


1
JJ Redick
457


2
Trajan Langdon
342


3
Jason Williams
313


4
Jon Scheyer
297


5
Kyle Singler
267


6
Bobby Hurley
264




7
Grayson Allen
249



8
Shane Battier
246




9
Quinn Cook
236


10
Andre Dawkins
231



11
Seth Curry
223

[grad_devil]

Grayson broke the 1800 point barrier last night, bringing his career total to 1814. He also brought his season scoring average back up above 15ppg.

No movement on the all-time list this week, but he's now 70 points away from Jeff Mullins in spot #19.



Points as of 02/15/2018
1814


Season PPG
15.0



Min






Max


Games Remaining
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14


Avg to 2k
26.57

23.25

20.67

18.60

16.91

15.50

14.31

13.29



Avg to top 10
37.57

32.88

29.22

26.30

23.91

21.92

20.23

18.79




Duke Career Scoring Leaders


NamePts


1
JJ Redick
2769


2
Johnny Dawkins
2556


3
Christian Laettner
2460


4
Kyle Singler
2392


5
Mike Gminski
2323


6
Danny Ferry
2155


7
Mark Alarie
2136


8
Gene Banks
2079


8
Jason Williams
2079


10
Jon Scheyer
2077


11
Jim Spanarkel
2012


12
Art Heyman
1984


12
Shane Battier
1984


14
Trajan Langdon
1974


15
Shelden Williams
1928


16
Grant Hill
1924


17
Nolan Smith
1911


18
Dick Groat
1886


19
Jeff Mullins
1884



20
Grayson Allen
1814


21
Bob Verga
1758

[DukieInBrasil]

Duke Career Scoring Leaders


NamePts


1
JJ Redick
2769


2
Johnny Dawkins
2556


3
Christian Laettner
2460


4
Kyle Singler
2392


5
Mike Gminski
2323


6
Danny Ferry
2155


7
Mark Alarie
2136


8
Gene Banks
2079


8
Jason Williams
2079


10
Jon Scheyer
2077


11
Jim Spanarkel
2012


12
Art Heyman
1984


12
Shane Battier
1984


14
Trajan Langdon
1974


15
Shelden Williams
1928


16
Grant Hill
1924


17
Nolan Smith
1911


18
Dick Groat
1886


19
Jeff Mullins
1884



20
Grayson Allen
1833


21
Bob Verga
1758



no change in his ranking on the list, but an update on the points total. Grayson's been on a scoring spree lately, averaging over 20 per game since Bagley has been out. which has made the likelihood he gets to 2000 pts more likely and also raises the likelihood that maybe he breaks into the top 10.

[dukelifer]

no change in his ranking on the list, but an update on the points total. Grayson's been on a scoring spree lately, averaging over 20 per game since Bagley has been out. which has made the likelihood he gets to 2000 pts more likely and also raises the likelihood that maybe he breaks into the top 10.

Makes you wonder how many years before another player makes into the top 20. I doubt 4 unless AOC blows up next year.

[jimsumner]

Makes you wonder how many years before another player makes into the top 20. I doubt 4 unless AOC blows up next year.

A few years ago I predicted that Kennard would be the next Duke player to approach 2,000 points.

Shows how much I know.

That said, AOC would not only have to blow up next season, he also would have to pass one of Barrett, Reddish, Williamson or Jones in the rotation to get enough minutes to blow up, which seems like an awfully unlikely scenario.

[grad_devil]

DukieInBrasil already updated the career scoring list - no movement since the previous update - but I'll add the ppg-to-target chart below.



Points as of 02/19/2018
1833


Season PPG
15.1
PPG last 3
22.33



Min






Max


Games Remaining
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13


Avg to 2k
27.83

23.86

20.88

18.56

16.70

15.18

13.92

12.85



Avg to top 10
40.67

34.86

30.50

27.11

24.40

22.18

20.33

18.77

[grad_devil]

Still no movement on the all-time list, but Grayson's 28 helped him in his quest to 2k.

Next up on the all-time list is Jeff Mullins, 23 points away.




Points as of 02/21/2018
1861


Season PPG
15.61
PPG last 3
24.00



Min






Max


Games Remaining
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12



Avg to 2k
27.80

23.17

19.86

17.38

15.44

13.90

12.64

11.58



Avg to top 10
43.20

36.00

30.86

27.00

24.00

21.60

19.64

18.00




Duke Career Scoring Leaders


NamePts


1
JJ Redick
2769


2
Johnny Dawkins
2556


3
Christian Laettner
2460


4
Kyle Singler
2392


5
Mike Gminski
2323


6
Danny Ferry
2155


7
Mark Alarie
2136


8
Gene Banks
2079


8
Jason Williams
2079


10
Jon Scheyer
2077


11
Jim Spanarkel
2012


12
Art Heyman
1984


12
Shane Battier
1984


14
Trajan Langdon
1974


15
Shelden Williams
1928


16
Grant Hill
1924


17
Nolan Smith
1911


18
Dick Groat
1886


19
Jeff Mullins
1884



20
Grayson Allen
1861


21
Bob Verga
1758

[Saratoga2]

Now in a tie with obby Hurley for 6th with 264 made 3 pointers.

[moonpie23]

look at the peeps BELOW Singler...........dope...

[sagegrouse]

Starting with Dick Groat (1950-1952), here's a list of those who have held the Duke scoring record, in succession:


Career Points Player
1950-1952 1,886 Dick Groat
1961-1963 1,984 Art Heyman
1976-1979 2,012 Jim Spanarkel
1977-1980 2,323 Mike Gminski
1983-1986 2,556 Johnny Dawkins
2003-2006 2,769 JJ Redick

[drummerdevil]

According to my numbers, assuming an average of 35 games/season, one would need to average about 20 (19.78) points a game for four years to break the JJ record. Is that ever going to happen again in Duke? Will we have anyone who is capable of scoring 20ppg at Duke who is willing to stay four years?

[royalblue]

There is a chance but my chance to win the lottery is likely better

[Truth&Justise]

According to my numbers, assuming an average of 35 games/season, one would need to average about 20 (19.78) points a game for four years to break the JJ record. Is that ever going to happen again in Duke? Will we have anyone who is capable of scoring 20ppg at Duke who is willing to stay four years?

Never say never. All records are meant to be broken. A couple of things could combine to allow it to happen:

1) Current emphasis on offensive basketball leads to sustained, long-term increase in scoring across the NCAA. Averaging close to 20 ppg is no longer seen as a surefire ticket to the NBA.

2) NCAA expands the number of games in a season, and expands the tournament. Why? $$

3) Duke stops recruiting one-and-dones, either because of changes in the rules or a drop-off in recruiting after K retires. Most guys stay four years.

4) One or two lean recruiting years happen--again, could be rule changes, K retiring, or just bad luck. As a result, there are a few season where Duke is more reliant on one or two top players. (Kind of like how Luol Deng left early, Shaun Livingston never came, and top recruits like Shavlik Randolph didn't quite live up to the billing)

5) A player comes who is a really really good college player, but is seen as lacking ideal attributes for the pros. Could be someone like JJ, who was seen as physically not ideal, or someone whose skills don't mesh with the current NBA, like a future Jahlil. Extra emphasis if he was a lightly regarded recruit in high school, for whatever reason.

I wouldn't be surprised to see any or all five of those happen in the next few years. And that doesn't even include unforeseen rule changes: a four point shot? Rescission of offensive goaltending? 24 second (or less) shot clock? Major conference shakeups?

So it could happen. Hard to see it happening in current NCAA landscape, but you never know.

[DarkstarWahoo]

So speaking of Allen...some unfortunate wording in this blog headline about him. (They’ve since changed it to “cites.”)

http://imgur.com/0KNJKPZ

[proelitedota]

So speaking of Allen...some unfortunate wording in this blog headline about him. (They’ve since changed it to “cites.”)

http://imgur.com/0KNJKPZ

Shocking!

[grad_devil]

With 28 points since the last update, Grayson passes Jeff Mullins and Dick Groat for 18th all-time.



Points as of 02/27/2018
1889


Season PPG
15.5
PPG last 3
18.67



Min






Max


Games Remaining
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10



Avg to 2k
37.00

27.75

22.20

18.50

15.86

13.88

12.33

11.10



Avg to top 10
62.67

47.00

37.60

31.33

26.86

23.50

20.89

18.80




Duke Career Scoring Leaders


NamePts


1
JJ Redick
2769


2
Johnny Dawkins
2556


3
Christian Laettner
2460


4
Kyle Singler
2392


5
Mike Gminski
2323


6
Danny Ferry
2155


7
Mark Alarie
2136


8
Gene Banks
2079


8
Jason Williams
2079


10
Jon Scheyer
2077


11
Jim Spanarkel
2012


12
Art Heyman
1984


12
Shane Battier
1984


14
Trajan Langdon
1974


15
Shelden Williams
1928


16
Grant Hill
1924


17
Nolan Smith
1911


18
Grayson Allen
1889


19
Dick Groat
1886


20
Jeff Mullins
1884

[grad_devil]

Grayson passed Bobby Hurley and Kyle Single to break into the top 5, since the last update.

Personally, I'm pulling for him to play the maximum amount of games and catch JJ.



Stats as of 02/27/2018


Grayson's 3FG
268


Season Avg 3FG/Game
2.6



Min
Max


Games Remaining
3
10



Avg to top 3
15.00
4.50


Avg to JJ
63.00
18.90



Duke Career 3FG Leaders


NamePts


1
JJ Redick
457


2
Trajan Langdon
342


3
Jason Williams
313


4
Jon Scheyer
297


5
Grayson Allen
268


6
Kyle Singler
267


7
Bobby Hurley
264






8
Shane Battier
246




9
Quinn Cook
236


10
Andre Dawkins
231



11
Seth Curry
223

[DukieInBrasil]

Grayson passed Bobby Hurley and Kyle Single to break into the top 5, since the last update.

Personally, I'm pulling for him to play the maximum amount of games and catch JJ.


personally, i'd love it if he hits 190 3s in the next 10 games too!

[Tom B.]

Starting with Dick Groat (1950-1952), here's a list of those who have held the Duke scoring record, in succession:


Career Points Player
1950-1952 1,886 Dick Groat
1961-1963 1,984 Art Heyman
1976-1979 2,012 Jim Spanarkel
1977-1980 2,323 Mike Gminski
1983-1986 2,556 Johnny Dawkins
2003-2006 2,769 JJ Redick


Poor Jim Spanarkel. His reign as Duke's career scoring leader didn't last even one full season. Mike Gminski entered the 1979-80 season with 1,619 points and passed Spanarkel on January 23, 1980 -- a home loss against Virginia in which Gminski went for 20 and 10, but was bested slightly by Virginia freshman...er, first-year Ralph Sampson, who put up 23 and 13.

[DukieInBrasil]

With 28 points since the last update, Grayson passes Jeff Mullins and Dick Groat for 18th all-time.



Points as of 02/27/2018
1889


Season PPG
15.5
PPG last 3
18.67



Min






Max


Games Remaining
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10



Avg to 2k
37.00

27.75

22.20

18.50

15.86

13.88

12.33

11.10



Avg to top 10
62.67

47.00

37.60

31.33

26.86

23.50

20.89

18.80




Duke Career Scoring Leaders


NamePts


1
JJ Redick
2769


2
Johnny Dawkins
2556


3
Christian Laettner
2460


4
Kyle Singler
2392


5
Mike Gminski
2323


6
Danny Ferry
2155


7
Mark Alarie
2136


8
Gene Banks
2079


8
Jason Williams
2079


10
Jon Scheyer
2077


11
Jim Spanarkel
2012


12
Art Heyman
1984


12
Shane Battier
1984


14
Trajan Langdon
1974


15
Shelden Williams
1928


16
Grant Hill
1924


17
Nolan Smith
1911


18
Grayson Allen
1904


19
Dick Groat
1886


20
Jeff Mullins
1884




How on earth did this fall to the THIRD page?!?!?!
Grayson passed the 1900 points mark, and has his sights set solidly on 2000, only 96 points to go!!! He also added 2 3s which i think puts him at 270. Perhaps a more internet savvy DBR fiend can improve my meager offering.

[grad_devil]

How on earth did this fall to the THIRD page?!?!?!
Grayson passed the 1900 points mark, and has his sights set solidly on 2000, only 96 points to go!!! He also added 2 3s which i think puts him at 270. Perhaps a more internet savvy DBR fiend can improve my meager offering.

I wouldn't refer to myself as a fiend, but I'll post the update.




Points as of 03/04/2018
1904


Season PPG
15.5
PPG last 3
14.33



Min






Max


Games Remaining
2
3
4
6
5
7
8
9


Avg to 2k
48.00

32.00

24.00

19.20

16.00

13.71

12.00

10.67



Avg to top 10
86.50

57.67

43.25

34.60

28.83

24.71

21.63

19.22




Duke Career Scoring Leaders


NamePts


1
JJ Redick
2769


2
Johnny Dawkins
2556


3
Christian Laettner
2460


4
Kyle Singler
2392


5
Mike Gminski
2323


6
Danny Ferry
2155


7
Mark Alarie
2136


8
Gene Banks
2079


8
Jason Williams
2079


10
Jon Scheyer
2077


11
Jim Spanarkel
2012


12
Art Heyman
1984


12
Shane Battier
1984


14
Trajan Langdon
1974


15
Shelden Williams
1928


16
Grant Hill
1924


17
Nolan Smith
1911


18
Grayson Allen
1904


19
Dick Groat
1886

[TKG]

I know this is a thread dedicated to Grayson, but, holy mackerel, Dick Groat! No freshman elegibility, no three point shot and, I would guess, fewer games. He played a little baseball, too.

[CDu]

I know this is a thread dedicated to Grayson, but, holy mackerel, Dick Groat! No freshman elegibility, no three point shot and, I would guess, fewer games. He played a little baseball, too.

Fewer games and no 3s, but way more possessions and way less defense. Groat averaged 23 ppg... on 20 FGA per game (40.9 fg%).

Great player for sure. But just a totally different era.

[MCFinARL]

Fewer games and no 3s, but way more possessions and way less defense. Groat averaged 23 ppg... on 20 FGA per game (40.9 fg%).

Great player for sure. But just a totally different era.

I love Dick Groat as much as the next person--and as a Pirates fan growing up in the 50's and 60's, probably more than most. But if we are going in the the way back machine, what about Art Heyman? 1984 career points in 3 seasons of 25, 24, and 30 games, respectively, and no 3s, as for Groat. Career average of 25.1 points per game, 45.1 fg% (can't find his FGA per game)--and a career average of 10.9 rebounds per game to boot.

[westwall]

Fewer games and no 3s, but way more possessions and way less defense. Groat averaged 23 ppg... on 20 FGA per game (40.9 fg%).

Great player for sure. But just a totally different era.

On what data do you base “way more possessions”?? As well as fewer games, there also was no shot clock and, as I recall, a lot more dribbling even when there was not an outright stall. But yes, it was a totally different era.

[CDu]

On what data do you base “way more possessions”?? As well as fewer games, there also was no shot clock and, as I recall, a lot more dribbling even when there was not an outright stall. But yes, it was a totally different era.

The shots per game tell the story. Per Sports Reference, Duke attempted 78 fga and 28 fta per game in 1952. This year? 62 fga and 22 fta per game. Given how good a rebounding team we are this year, that actually understates the difference. Even if the 1952 team never turned the ball over, they would still have played more possessions. And that isn’t a 1-year blip. The Devils averaged 78 FGA and 29 FTA per game over the four years from 1950 to 1953.

Teams back then shot a lot more, and missed a lot more (team fg% varied around the 35% range). It wasn’t until more recently that teams started slowing the game down, ironically well after the invention of the shot clock.

[westwall]

The shots per game tell the story. Per Sports Reference, Duke attempted 78 fga and 28 fta per game in 1952. This year? 62 fga and 22 fta per game. Given how good a rebounding team we are this year, that actually understates the difference. Even if the 1952 team never turned the ball over, they would still have played more possessions. And that isn’t a 1-year blip. The Devils averaged 78 FGA and 29 FTA per game over the four years from 1950 to 1953.

Teams back then shot a lot more, and missed a lot more (team fg% varied around the 35% range). It wasn’t until more recently that teams started slowing the game down, ironically well after the invention of the shot clock.


I don’t question the reference but must say that I’m surprised. But then I did not matriculate until ‘55, so . . .

[CDu]

I don’t question the reference but must say that I’m surprised. But then I did not matriculate until ‘55, so . . .

Yeah, it is definitely counterintuitive. One would think that without a shot clock teams would play slower. I think I may have found myself a pet project for the offseason: analyzing the trends in possessions per game over time (or at least looking to see if someone has already done the analysis).

[lmb]

So the NCAA added the 3-pointer in '86. Not sure if that was January of '86 or the start of the next season. Either way, Johnny Dawkins is number 2 on the list without much or any benefit of the 3-point shot and his teammate, Mark Alarie, is 7th. We all remember how great Dawkins was, but I think we forget Alarie a bit. It's pretty amazing to score that much when you share the court with the national player of the year.

[jimsumner]

So the NCAA added the 3-pointer in '86. Not sure if that was January of '86 or the start of the next season. Either way, Johnny Dawkins is number 2 on the list without much or any benefit of the 3-point shot and his teammate, Mark Alarie, is 7th. We all remember how great Dawkins was, but I think we forget Alarie a bit. It's pretty amazing to score that much when you share the court with the national player of the year.

The ACC had a 17'9" 3-point shot in 1983. An experiment. Conference games only. Dawkins was 19-54, Alarie 0-2. Chip Engelland was 41-74, Tom Emma 24-55. NC State's Terry Gannon was 53-90 (58.9%).

So, 17-9 was too short.

The permanent 3-point shot came into play for 1986-'87. Duke attempted 368 3s in 33 games. How times have changed.

The pre-3-point Duke players who would have most benefited from the shot, IMO, were Bob Verga and Tate Armstrong. Verga was every bit the long-range shooter Redick was. Guys like Steve Vacendak, Jack Marin, Rick Katherman and Mark Crow also had 3-point range.

The highest-scoring team in Duke history was the 1965 team, which averaged 92.4 ppg. Verga, 21.4; Marin, 19.1; Vacendak, 16.2; Hack Tison,11.7. That team scored a school-record 136 against Virginia.

Bill Foster's 1976 team averaged 88.3 ppg and they weren't even very good.

So, yes, counter-intuitive.

It's difficult to compare cumulative stats across eras. The rules changes are a key factor. Shot-clock, 3-point shot.

But current guys also play so many more games. And it's not just freshmen eligibility. Bubas took the 1963, 1964 and 1966 teams to the Final Four. Those teams played 30, 31 and 30 games respectively.

That 1965 team lost to NC State in the ACC Tournament title game and ended its season at 25 games.

By contrast, Duke played 40 games in 1986, 39 in 1991, 1999 and 2001, 40 in 2010, 39 in 2015.

Ten games a year adds up.

Look at Kyle Singler. He ranks fourth in career points at Duke, seventh in rebounds. An all-time great?

But Singler played 148 games. Bob Verga played 80, Jeff Mullins 86, Art Heyman 79, Dick Groat 82, Randy Denton 84. That's a huge chasm.

Singler actually ranks 16th in points-per-game and is nowhere near the top-20 in rebounds per game. Mason Plumlee is fourth in career rebounds at Duke, Denton fifth. Plumlee averaged 7.7 per game, Denton averaged 12.7. Amile Jefferson averaged 6.3 rebounds per game and he's 11th. Art Heyman averaged 10.9 and he's 15th.

There's another side to the coin. Let's look at Nolan Smith. He went into the season ranked 17th in career points, with 1,911. Allen may pass him.
But Smith averaged a modest 13.4 ppg in 143 games, modest by the standards of career leaders.

But he scored 202 points as a freshman, 5.9 per game. Take away those 202 points and he's at 1,709, which would have had him at 22nd. But his ppg average would be at 15.7.

I have no idea how well Groat, Heyman, Mullins, Verga, Denton, et. al. would have played as varsity freshmen but I think it's logical to assume that, while their cumulative stats would have increased (duh), their per-game-averages would not be as high as they were while playing three years.

Comparing stats across era may not be apples and oranges. But it's at least Pink Ladies and Gala.

[DukieInBrasil]

I wouldn't refer to myself as a fiend, but I'll post the update.




Points as of 03/04/2018
1904


Season PPG
15.5
PPG last 3
14.33



Min






Max


Games Remaining
2
3
4
6
5
7
8
9


Avg to 2k
38.00

25.33

19.00

15.20

16.00

12.67

10.86

9.5



Avg to top 10
86.50

57.67

43.25

34.60

28.83

24.71

21.63

19.22




Duke Career Scoring Leaders


NamePts


1
JJ Redick
2769


2
Johnny Dawkins
2556


3
Christian Laettner
2460


4
Kyle Singler
2392


5
Mike Gminski
2323


6
Danny Ferry
2155


7
Mark Alarie
2136


8
Gene Banks
2079


8
Jason Williams
2079


10
Jon Scheyer
2077


11
Jim Spanarkel
2012


12
Art Heyman
1984


12
Shane Battier
1984


14
Trajan Langdon
1974


15
Shelden Williams
1928


16
Grayson Allen
1927


17
Grant Hill
1924


18
Nolan Smith
1911


19
Dick Groat
1886



As mentioned in the game itself, Grayson passed both Grant Hill and Nolan Smith last night with a stellar night shooting the ball, for 23 points. He also added 5 3pt FGs to his total, good for 275 (i think). I adjusted the pts to 2,000 table but was too lazy to adjust the points to to-10 table. ed.- turns out i goofed on the pts to 2,000 table a bit, but i am still too lazy to fix it and have to go dissertate, so someone else can fix it...
If he and Bagley keep clicking like this, with assistance from Trevon (see what i did there?), then Grayson will have a great shot (see what i did there?) to not only (fast)break past 2,000 career points but maybe score himself into the top 5 all-time at Duke.

[luburch]

Points as of 03/09/2018
1927


Season PPG
15.7
PPG last 3
20



Min





Max


Games Remaining
2
3
4
6
5
7
8


Avg to 2k
36.5

24.33

18.25

14.6

12.12

10.43

9.13



Avg to top 10
75

50

37.5

30

25

21.42

18.75




Duke Career Scoring Leaders


NamePts


1
JJ Redick
2769


2
Johnny Dawkins
2556


3
Christian Laettner
2460


4
Kyle Singler
2392


5
Mike Gminski
2323


6
Danny Ferry
2155


7
Mark Alarie
2136


8
Gene Banks
2079


8
Jason Williams
2079


10
Jon Scheyer
2077


11
Jim Spanarkel
2012


12
Art Heyman
1984


12
Shane Battier
1984


14
Trajan Langdon
1974


15
Shelden Williams
1928


18
Grayson Allen
1927


16
Grant Hill
1924


17
Nolan Smith
1911


19
Dick Groat
1886





Stats as of 03/09/2018


Grayson's 3FG
275


Season Avg 3FG/Game
2.7



Min
Max


Games Remaining
2
8



Avg to top 3
19
4.75


Avg to JJ
91
22.75



Duke Career 3FG Leaders


NamePts


1
JJ Redick
457


2
Trajan Langdon
342


3
Jason Williams
313


4
Jon Scheyer
297


5
Grayson Allen
275


6
Kyle Singler
267


7
Bobby Hurley
264



8
Shane Battier
246



9
Quinn Cook
236


10
Andre Dawkins
231



11
Seth Curry
223




Hopefully all of my math checks out. Can Grayson catch Scheyer on both lists?

[luburch]

Also of note:

Grayson is 18 made free throws (currently at 480) away from passing Kyle Singler for 10th place on the all time list.

Grayson currently has the 7th best free throw percentage (.838) in Duke history.

Grayson is 64 assists away (currently at 404) from tying Greg Paulus for 10th place. The list in the media guide only goes 10 spots out, so I was unable to see what place he is currently in.

Someone please correct me if I'm wrong on any of these :)

[CDu]

Not a math correction, but your column headers are slightly off. The "6" is in the "5" place and the "5" in the "6" place.

[Atldukie79]

The ACC had a 17'9" 3-point shot in 1983. An experiment. Conference games only. Dawkins was 19-54, Alarie 0-2. Chip Engelland was 41-74, Tom Emma 24-55. NC State's Terry Gannon was 53-90 (58.9%).

So, 17-9 was too short.

The permanent 3-point shot came into play for 1986-'87. Duke attempted 368 3s in 33 games. How times have changed.

The pre-3-point Duke players who would have most benefited from the shot, IMO, were Bob Verga and Tate Armstrong. Verga was every bit the long-range shooter Redick was. Guys like Steve Vacendak, Jack Marin, Rick Katherman and Mark Crow also had 3-point range.

The highest-scoring team in Duke history was the 1965 team, which averaged 92.4 ppg. Verga, 21.4; Marin, 19.1; Vacendak, 16.2; Hack Tison,11.7. That team scored a school-record 136 against Virginia.

Bill Foster's 1976 team averaged 88.3 ppg and they weren't even very good.

So, yes, counter-intuitive.

It's difficult to compare cumulative stats across eras. The rules changes are a key factor. Shot-clock, 3-point shot.

But current guys also play so many more games. And it's not just freshmen eligibility. Bubas took the 1963, 1964 and 1966 teams to the Final Four. Those teams played 30, 31 and 30 games respectively.

That 1965 team lost to NC State in the ACC Tournament title game and ended its season at 25 games.

By contrast, Duke played 40 games in 1986, 39 in 1991, 1999 and 2001, 40 in 2010, 39 in 2015.

Ten games a year adds up.

Look at Kyle Singler. He ranks fourth in career points at Duke, seventh in rebounds. An all-time great?

But Singler played 148 games. Bob Verga played 80, Jeff Mullins 86, Art Heyman 79, Dick Groat 82, Randy Denton 84. That's a huge chasm.

Singler actually ranks 16th in points-per-game and is nowhere near the top-20 in rebounds per game. Mason Plumlee is fourth in career rebounds at Duke, Denton fifth. Plumlee averaged 7.7 per game, Denton averaged 12.7. Amile Jefferson averaged 6.3 rebounds per game and he's 11th. Art Heyman averaged 10.9 and he's 15th.

There's another side to the coin. Let's look at Nolan Smith. He went into the season ranked 17th in career points, with 1,911. Allen may pass him.
But Smith averaged a modest 13.4 ppg in 143 games, modest by the standards of career leaders.

But he scored 202 points as a freshman, 5.9 per game. Take away those 202 points and he's at 1,709, which would have had him at 22nd. But his ppg average would be at 15.7.

I have no idea how well Groat, Heyman, Mullins, Verga, Denton, et. al. would have played as varsity freshmen but I think it's logical to assume that, while their cumulative stats would have increased (duh), their per-game-averages would not be as high as they were while playing three years.

Comparing stats across era may not be apples and oranges. But it's at least Pink Ladies and Gala.

Thank you Jim!

I love tracking career totals as much as anyone. But the per game averages must also be examined to consider greatness.
The 3 year era and fewer game era must not be diminished when considering career impact or performance level.

I am pulling for Grayson to hit 2000 and it is fun to watch.
At the same time, I wonder where Bagley will finish on a points per game season average list also?

[grad_devil]

Grayson made some serious moves on the all-time list since my last update, passing Nolan Smith, Grant Hill, and Shelden Williams to claim 15th.

The minimum games number will remain at one for the remainder of the season, as the NCAA Tournament begins. If Duke plays 4 games in the tournament (makes the elite 8), Grayson has a good shot to top 2k points. He has an outside shot if Duke makes the sweet 16, but will have to up his scoring average a bit (19.00 ppg).

I've removed the "Avg to Top 10" numbers; if Duke should make a deep run and Grayson is lighting it up, I'll consider reinstating them, but it's a pretty long shot at this point.



Points as of 03/10/2018
1943


Season PPG
15.7
PPG last 3
18.00



Min




Max


Games Remaining
1
2
3
4
5
6


Avg to 2k
57.00

28.50

19.00

14.25

11.40

9.50




Duke Career Scoring Leaders


NamePts


1
JJ Redick
2769


2
Johnny Dawkins
2556


3
Christian Laettner
2460


4
Kyle Singler
2392


5
Mike Gminski
2323


6
Danny Ferry
2155


7
Mark Alarie
2136


8
Gene Banks
2079


8
Jason Williams
2079


10
Jon Scheyer
2077


11
Jim Spanarkel
2012


12
Art Heyman
1984


12
Shane Battier
1984


14
Trajan Langdon
1974


15
Grayson Allen
1943


16
Shelden Williams
1928


17
Grant Hill
1924


18
Nolan Smith
1911

[CDu]

For reference, we'd pretty much have to make the title game with Allen scoring 22.3 ppg for him to catch Scheyer. Let's hope he catches Scheyer! But, the odds are against it.

[aivroadstr]

Points as of 03/15/2018
1959


Season PPG
15.7
PPG Last 3
18.33



Min



Max


Games Remaining
1
2
3
4
5


Avg to 2k
41.00
20.50
13.67
10.25
8.20



Duke Career Scoring Leaders



Name
Pts


1
JJ Redick
2769


2
Johnny Dawkins
2556


3
Christian Laettner
2460


4
Kyle Singler
2392


5
Mike Gminski
2323


6
Danny Ferry
2155


7
Mark Alarie
2136


8
Gene Banks
2079


8
Jason Williams
2079


10
Jon Scheyer
2077


11
Jim Spanarkel
2012


12
Art Heyman
1984


12
Shane Battier
1984


14
Trajan Langdon
1974


15
Grayson Allen
1959


16
Shelden Williams
1928


17
Grant Hill
1924


18
Nolan Smith
1911

[ChillinDuke]

Grayson had 16 last night, bringing him to 1959 for his career.

If we can get through on Saturday, 2000 is definitely in play in the Sweet 16 game.

- Chillin

[CDu]

Grayson had 16 last night, bringing him to 1959 for his career.

If we can get through on Saturday, 2000 is definitely in play in the Sweet 16 game.

- Chillin

Let's play 5 more and give him an outside shot at #8 all-time at Duke!

[phaedrus]

Fun fact: While Grayson is striving to be the 12th Duke player to score 2000 points, the Big Ten (which has at least 10 teams in it, maybe more) has had 14 players hit that milestone.

https://www.sports-reference.com/cbb/conferences/big-ten/leaders/pts-player-career.html

[jimsumner]

Points as of 03/15/2018
1959


Season PPG
15.7
PPG Last 3
18.33



Min



Max


Games Remaining
1
2
3
4
5


Avg to 2k
41.00
20.50
13.67
10.25
8.20



Duke Career Scoring Leaders



Name
Pts


1
JJ Redick
2769


2
Johnny Dawkins
2556


3
Christian Laettner
2460


4
Kyle Singler
2392


5
Mike Gminski
2323


6
Danny Ferry
2155


7
Mark Alarie
2136


8
Gene Banks
2079


8
Jason Williams
2079


10
Jon Scheyer
2077


11
Jim Spanarkel
2012


12
Art Heyman
1984


12
Shane Battier
1984


14
Trajan Langdon
1974


15
Grayson Allen
1959


16
Shelden Williams
1928


17
Grant Hill
1924


18
Nolan Smith
1911



When did Shelden Williams become Sheldon?

Can we correct this?

[-jk]

Fixed on this page...

-jk

[grad_devil]

No movement on the all-time list, but he only needs 6 more to pass Trajan Langdon. He's 10 points closer to 2k, needing only 31 more.



Points as of 03/17/2018
1969


Season PPG
15.57


PPG last 3
14.00



Min


Max


Games Remaining
1
2
3
4


Avg to 2k
31.00

15.50

10.33

7.75



Avg to top 10
108.00

54.00

36.00

27.00




Duke Career Scoring Leaders


NamePts


1
JJ Redick
2769


2
Johnny Dawkins
2556


3
Christian Laettner
2460


4
Kyle Singler
2392


5
Mike Gminski
2323


6
Danny Ferry
2155


7
Mark Alarie
2136


8
Gene Banks
2079


8
Jason Williams
2079


10
Jon Scheyer
2077


11
Jim Spanarkel
2012


12
Art Heyman
1984


12
Shane Battier
1984


14
Trajan Langdon
1974


15
Grayson Allen
1969

[juise]

Pulling for a repeat performance against Sparty, so he can get this out of the way and focus on winning a title. ;)

Actually, I’m pulling for the Cuse tomorrow.

[grad_devil]

Grayson is 11 3FG away from catching Coach Scheyer, #4 all-time at Duke.



Stats as of 03/17/2018


Grayson's 3FG
286


Season Avg 3FG/Game
2.77



Min
Max


Games Remaining
1
4



Avg to top 3
27.00
6.75


Duke Career 3FG Leaders


NamePts


1
JJ Redick
457


2
Trajan Langdon
342


3
Jason Williams
313


4
Jon Scheyer
297


5
Grayson Allen
286


6
Kyle Singler
267


7
Bobby Hurley
264






8
Shane Battier
246




9
Quinn Cook
236


10
Andre Dawkins
231



11
Seth Curry
223

[godins]

Pulling for a repeat performance against Sparty, so he can get this out of the way and focus on winning a title. ;)

Actually, I’m pulling for the Cuse tomorrow.

I'm also pulling for Cuse tomorrow (cleaning my mouth out with soap after saying that). Both programs disgust me. But if there's any team that can muck up a game and keep it close, it's Syracuse. Jimmy B knows how to win games the ugly way. If Michigan State is truly a low-IQ squad (Izzo's words, not mine), they'll barf it up down the stretch.

[Messimorgan17]

Pulling for a repeat performance against Sparty, so he can get this out of the way and focus on winning a title. ;)

Actually, I’m pulling for the Cuse tomorrow.


The thing about Grayson is he has turned into a mature team leader. He is all about winning and not the numbers. He took fewer shots yesterday ( 30f 6 from the field and 3-4 from 3 point land)than the rest of the starters ( tied with Carter) including Duval (3-10), although a much better shooter than Duval. He wants the title and is fueling the team’s confidence and focus.

[SupaDave]

The ACC had a 17'9" 3-point shot in 1983. An experiment. Conference games only. Dawkins was 19-54, Alarie 0-2. Chip Engelland was 41-74, Tom Emma 24-55. NC State's Terry Gannon was 53-90 (58.9%).

So, 17-9 was too short.

This is something that's been on my mind lately. Something I've been marveling at and wondering if anyone else has noticed is just how much Grayson's range has improved. He's hitting 30 footers basically consistently at this point (and on one leg too). His range has certainly made it to NBA level. If he keeps up this tear I only expect good things. That range will be a neutralizer against some of the long teams we could see - including the Cuse.

[Jim3k]

FIFY. See asterisk.




Duke Career Scoring Leaders



Name
Pts


1
JJ Redick
2769


2
Johnny Dawkins
2556


3
Christian Laettner
2460


4
Kyle Singler
2392


5
Mike Gminski
2323


6
Danny Ferry
2155


7
Mark Alarie
2136


8
Gene Banks
2079


8
Jason Williams *
2079


10
Jon Scheyer
2077


11
Jim Spanarkel
2012


12
Art Heyman *
1984


12
Shane Battier
1984


14
Trajan Langdon
1974


15
Grayson Allen
1969



* Because freshmen could not play on the Varsity team, Heyman's point total is for only 3 years play. All others on the list except Jason Williams played on the Varsity team for 4 years. Williams graduated after 3 years play.

[grad_devil]

FIFY. See asterisk.

Jason Williams only played 3 years. Are there others?

[JNort]

Jason Williams only played 3 years. Are there others?

This is partly why I think he is the best Dukie ever. If he comes back for his senior year and has 0 improvement he owns the all time scoring record even if he only plays in 35 games.

[SupaDave]

This is partly why I think he is the best Dukie ever. If he comes back for his senior year and has 0 improvement he owns the all time scoring record even if he only plays in 35 games.

ONLY 35 games!! lol! That's basically an ACC tourney championship and an Elite 8 appearance. But we all can dream. If he stays, our guard depth would have been ridiculous and we likely get to play those 35 games. Jason, JJ, Duhon, and Ewing would have just been sick.

[CDu]

ONLY 35 games!! lol! That's basically an ACC tourney championship and an Elite 8 appearance. But we all can dream. If he stays, our guard depth would have been ridiculous and we likely get to play those 35 games. Jason, JJ, Duhon, and Ewing would have just been sick.

Nah, an ACC championship game and an elite-8 appearance would be 37-38 games. There are only 2 more games a team could play than that: the Final Four and championship. A 35-game season would be a ACC semifinal loss and a second-round loss. In other words, what our season would have been this year had we lost last Saturday (we are at 35 games right now).

[SupaDave]

Nah, an ACC championship game and an elite-8 appearance would be 37-38 games. There are only 2 more games a team could play than that: the Final Four and championship. A 35-game season would be a ACC semifinal loss and a second-round loss. In other words, what our season would have been this year had we lost last Saturday (we are at 35 games right now).

The point is that it's a FULL season basically. Had he said he needed to play only 15 games I would have been impressed.

[El_Diablo]

Nah, an ACC championship game and an elite-8 appearance would be 37-38 games. There are only 2 more games a team could play than that: the Final Four and championship. A 35-game season would be a ACC semifinal loss and a second-round loss. In other words, what our season would have been this year had we lost last Saturday (we are at 35 games right now).

An ACC championship game and Elite Eight appearance in 2003 would have been 34 games (one more than the 33 we actually played that year). We would have needed to go to the ACC finals AND the Final Four to get to 35 games.

[CDu]

An ACC championship game and Elite Eight appearance in 2003 would have been 34 games (one more than the 33 we actually played that year). We would have needed to go to the ACC finals AND the Final Four to get to 35 games.

You're right. We didn't play in any preseason tournament in the 02-03 season, so our game totals were deflated by 2-3 games that year.

[The Gordog]

FIFY. See asterisk.

Grayson Allen
1985 career points, so far.

Passed Trajan, Shane and Art today.

[CDu]

Grayson Allen
1985 career points, so far.

Passed Trajan, Shane and Art today.

1984 actually.

[dukelifer]

1984 actually.

That missed front end did it- maybe he knew ;)

[84Duke]

1984 actually.

Well, then he might as well jump (jump).

[juise]

Ironically, 4 points shy of 2000. Wish he traded the OT three for the two at the end of regulation.

[drummerdevil]

Shame... if he hit those two at the end of regulation he would have gotten it on Saturday.

[luburch]

Saw a snippet of Coach K's press-conference where he referenced Grayson as a 2,000 point scorer...

[JasonEvans]

Saw a snippet of Coach K's press-conference where he referenced Grayson as a 2,000 point scorer...

Rounding.

[dukelifer]

Rounding.

The points in the championship game count double