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JasonEvans
06-20-2017, 02:33 PM
Rather than continue to pollute the NBA Finals thread, let's move the conversation about post-season trades and free agents to a new home... here.

Thanks

JasonEvans
06-20-2017, 02:39 PM
Looks like the Cavs are more interested in Jimmy Butler.

http://www.espn.com/espn/now?nowId=1-19682349

Makes perfect sense to me as Butler would seem more likely to stay in Cleveland than George. Also, Butler is under contract for 2 years while George is only locked in for 1 more season. That said, because George has made it clear he wants out of Indy, I would think a trade would be easier to facilitate with the Pacers.

All the talk is that Cleveland is trying to deal Love to someone who would send picks and younger players to Chicago. I wonder who the third team would be in these scenarios.

-Jason "I know one thing, i ain't Boston ;) " Evans

English
06-20-2017, 02:58 PM
According to Ramona Shelburne and Marc Stein (both still with the Worldwide Leader), via "league sources," the Lakers & Pacers have engaged in talks for Paul George in advance of the draft.

That protected Boston 2018 LAL draft pick appears likely to go up in smoke. It's likely on to the 2019 Sacto pick for them.

JasonEvans
06-20-2017, 03:09 PM
According to Ramona Shelburne and Marc Stein (both still with the Worldwide Leader), via "league sources," the Lakers & Pacers have engaged in talks for Paul George in advance of the draft.

So, suddenly the Lakers are in "win now!" mode? Huh? If they wait a year, they have a decent chance to get PG13 for free (cap space).

If you are Indiana, what do you want for PG13? Jordan Clarkson and D'Angelo Russell would work in terms of cap space. I can't imagine Indiana would do it, but you could do George for Deng and then throw in a ton of draft picks from the Lakers.

-Jason "I wonder if the Lakers would consider dealing the pick that will become Ball? I think that would be a mistake. Elite PGs who make everyone around them better are hard to come by" Evans

kAzE
06-20-2017, 03:19 PM
Makes perfect sense to me as Butler would seem more likely to stay in Cleveland than George. Also, Butler is under contract for 2 years while George is only locked in for 1 more season. That said, because George has made it clear he wants out of Indy, I would think a trade would be easier to facilitate with the Pacers.

All the talk is that Cleveland is trying to deal Love to someone who would send picks and younger players to Chicago. I wonder who the third team would be in these scenarios.

-Jason "I know one thing, i ain't Boston ;) " Evans

Butler to Cleveland makes sense from a feasibility and mutual interest standpoint, but he doesn't fit in as seamlessly on offense as George or even Kevin Love in my opinion. However, the George to Cleveland story seems to have died down, so Butler is probably the best they can do at this point.

Defensively, Butler is obviously a massive, massive upgrade for them. The reason to do this deal is because of his defense. He can switch 1 through 3 and is tough as nails.
Just adding Butler turns Cleveland into a top 10- defensive squad.

That said, it will be an awkward fit on offense. Butler is another ball dominant perimeter scorer on a team with 2 extremely ball dominant stars, and he doesn't have the consistent shooting that you would want in a #3 scorer.

I think we would all agree that Butler would be 3rd in the pecking order on the Cavs, and it's also widely accepted that the 3rd scorer always gets the short end of a stick on these super teams. That is, unless your 3rd scorer is a lights out shooter who knows how to move without the ball, like Ray Allen or Klay Thompson. Chris Bosh had to work hard on his perimeter shot before he finally settled in comfortably into his role as the #3 guy in that Heat offense.

Butler is not a lights out shooter, and he doesn't have a ton of experience playing without the ball in his hands. However, he does by all accounts have a ridiculous work ethic, so if he does end up with the Cavs, I would bet on him improving that jumper.

It's an interesting move, and I think it does make the Cavs more competitive with the Warriors. I still think George is the better fit from a basketball standpoint, with his ability to play some power forward, and his more accurate shooting, but I guess that ship has sailed.

DallasDevil
06-20-2017, 03:31 PM
According to Ramona Shelburne and Marc Stein (both still with the Worldwide Leader), via "league sources," the Lakers & Pacers have engaged in talks for Paul George in advance of the draft.

That protected Boston 2018 LAL draft pick appears likely to go up in smoke. It's likely on to the 2019 Sacto pick for them.

PG to LA may actually make it more likely that Boston gets the 2018 LAL pick. As long as it's not 2-5, it goes to Boston. Given that LA has traded their 2018 first round pick, there's no reason for them not to trade for George now and begin integrating him with the rest of their core.

LasVegas
06-20-2017, 03:36 PM
The problem with the love for butler trade is that it won't be enough. Too bad they couldn't nab butler AND keep love. That's gets them on the same level as the GSW super duper team, I think....

kshepinthehouse
06-20-2017, 03:42 PM
PG to LA may actually make it more likely that Boston gets the 2018 LAL pick. As long as it's not 2-5, it goes to Boston. Given that LA has traded their 2018 first round pick, there's no reason for them not to trade for George now and begin integrating him with the rest of their core.

My guess is also that they would be worried about the Cavs acquiring him and the possibility of him resigning with Lebron and the Cavs after that. I would be scared that whoever he gets traded to he may fall in love with the team and decide to stick around.

English
06-20-2017, 03:46 PM
My guess is also that they would be worried about the Cavs acquiring him and the possibility of him resigning with Lebron and the Cavs after that. I would be scared that whoever he gets traded to he may fall in love with the team and decide to stick around.

This is my suspicion--there is a nonzero likelihood that he ends up somewhere else, and by making a deal now, that likelihood is vaporized. In an era of superteams and players colluding in the offseason to play together, who knows what the landscape will look like in 18mo. Especially with the specter of Lebron leaving Cleveland, Melo ending up somewhere, CP3 leaving LAC (or staying with LAC), etc. This assumes that Magic is risk averse, but that's not a great leap of faith, pending the Pacers' asking price.

Troublemaker
06-20-2017, 03:55 PM
PG to LA may actually make it more likely that Boston gets the 2018 LAL pick. As long as it's not 2-5, it goes to Boston. Given that LA has traded their 2018 first round pick, there's no reason for them not to trade for George now and begin integrating him with the rest of their core.

That's backwards. As long as it IS 2-5, it goes to Boston. Otherwise, Boston receives the 2019 Kings pick.


The problem with the love for butler trade is that it won't be enough. Too bad they couldn't nab butler AND keep love. That's gets them on the same level as the GSW super duper team, I think...

Well, yeah. Usually you can't tack a 4th star onto your Big 3. The circumstances that allowed GSW to do it -- Curry-ankle-contract, cap spike -- do not exist for Cleveland.

CDu
06-20-2017, 04:01 PM
Butler to Cleveland makes sense from a feasibility and mutual interest standpoint, but he doesn't fit in as seamlessly on offense as George or even Kevin Love in my opinion. However, the George to Cleveland story seems to have died down, so Butler is probably the best they can do at this point.

Defensively, Butler is obviously a massive, massive upgrade for them. The reason to do this deal is because of his defense. He can switch 1 through 3 and is tough as nails.
Just adding Butler turns Cleveland into a top 10- defensive squad.

That said, it will be an awkward fit on offense. Butler is another ball dominant perimeter scorer on a team with 2 extremely ball dominant stars, and he doesn't have the consistent shooting that you would want in a #3 scorer.

I think we would all agree that Butler would be 3rd in the pecking order on the Cavs, and it's also widely accepted that the 3rd scorer always gets the short end of a stick on these super teams. That is, unless your 3rd scorer is a lights out shooter who knows how to move without the ball, like Ray Allen or Klay Thompson. Chris Bosh had to work hard on his perimeter shot before he finally settled in comfortably into his role as the #3 guy in that Heat offense.

Butler is not a lights out shooter, and he doesn't have a ton of experience playing without the ball in his hands. However, he does by all accounts have a ridiculous work ethic, so if he does end up with the Cavs, I would bet on him improving that jumper.

It's an interesting move, and I think it does make the Cavs more competitive with the Warriors. I still think George is the better fit from a basketball standpoint, with his ability to play some power forward, and his more accurate shooting, but I guess that ship has sailed.

A few things here:
1. I totally agree that Butler is less of a fit offensively on the floor with Irving and James than either Love or George. He's at his best with the ball in his hands, and is more of a scorer than a shooter. That said, he's also very good without the ball (especially on back-door alley-oops), and having facilitators like James is a nice plus. He's also a perfect guy to fill in the "LeBron" role when LeBron sits. No, he's not nearly as good as LeBron, but he can play the same position at an All-NBA level while LeBron sits, rather than having replacement-level play there.
2. He does in fact have a ton of experience without the ball in his hands, as the first several years of his career (with Rose at PG and then with Noah as "point center") he was an off-ball player. It's only in the last couple of years that he's expanded his role to be a ball-dominant player.
3. Defensively, he's a HUGE get for whoever gets him. You say "1 to 3" here, but he is more than capable of guarding PFs too, and he's not overwhelmed by most centers. He's 6'7", 220lb, and basically defensively similar to Iguodala in that he's a true Swiss army knife on defense. Plug and play almost wherever you want.

He's one of the absolute best two-way players in the league, and he is on a pretty darn cheap contract for two more years given what he can provide. He's the most valuable commodity that is potentially available this summer.

That being said, I don't think Cleveland is a match unless they can get really creative with a third team, or unless Paxson/Forman really blink. The Cavs don't have the assets to get Butler unless it involves Irving, and that isn't happening. Boston is the place that makes more sense from an assets perspective. They have the pile of high draft picks that would facilitate a rebuild for the Bulls.

Troublemaker
06-20-2017, 04:12 PM
A few things here:
1. I totally agree that Butler is less of a fit offensively on the floor with Irving and James than either Love or George. He's at his best with the ball in his hands, and is more of a scorer than a shooter. That said, he's also very good without the ball (especially on back-door alley-oops), and having facilitators like James is a nice plus. He's also a perfect guy to fill in the "LeBron" role when LeBron sits. No, he's not nearly as good as LeBron, but he can play the same position at an All-NBA level while LeBron sits, rather than having replacement-level play there.
2. He does in fact have a ton of experience without the ball in his hands, as the first several years of his career (with Rose at PG and then with Noah as "point center") he was an off-ball player. It's only in the last couple of years that he's expanded his role to be a ball-dominant player.
3. Defensively, he's a HUGE get for whoever gets him. You say "1 to 3" here, but he is more than capable of guarding PFs too, and he's not overwhelmed by most centers. He's 6'7", 220lb, and basically defensively similar to Iguodala in that he's a true Swiss army knife on defense. Plug and play almost wherever you want.

He's one of the absolute best two-way players in the league, and he is on a pretty darn cheap contract for two more years given what he can provide. He's the most valuable commodity that is potentially available this summer.

That being said, I don't think Cleveland is a match unless they can get really creative with a third team, or unless Paxson/Forman really blink. The Cavs don't have the assets to get Butler unless it involves Irving, and that isn't happening. Boston is the place that makes more sense from an assets perspective. They have the pile of high draft picks that would facilitate a rebuild for the Bulls.

CDu, what do you think of Butler's chances of slowing down (not stopping) Durant? I mean, that's what this trade would be about, essentially.

Have you seen Butler and Durant matched up enough to make a determination either way? It'd be a small sample, of course, since different conferences.

CDu
06-20-2017, 04:17 PM
CDu, what do you think of Butler's chances of slowing down (not stopping) Durant? I mean, that's what this trade would be about, essentially.

Have you seen Butler and Durant matched up enough to make a determination either way? It'd be a small sample, of course, since different conferences.

Butler is as capable as anyone against Durant. He isn't stopping Durant, of course. Nobody does that. But when not burdened with playing 40+ minutes AND carrying the offense, he is as good as it gets defensively against SG/SF/PF.

JasonEvans
06-20-2017, 04:41 PM
Butler is as capable as anyone against Durant. He isn't stopping Durant, of course. Nobody does that. But when not burdened with playing 40+ minutes AND carrying the offense, he is as good as it gets defensively against SG/SF/PF.

Kawhi Leonard might take exception to that.

That said, Butler is a remarkable defender and would be a major upgrade to the Cavs D.

-Jason "I wonder, with a lot of young talent that has value, could the Spurs get involved in some of this Butler/George talk? I actually think the Spurs are a lot closer to the Warriors than folks realize" Evans

CDu
06-20-2017, 04:50 PM
Kawhi Leonard might take exception to that.

That said, Butler is a remarkable defender and would be a major upgrade to the Cavs D.

-Jason "I wonder, with a lot of young talent that has value, could the Spurs get involved in some of this Butler/George talk? I actually think the Spurs are a lot closer to the Warriors than folks realize" Evans

Yeah, fair point. Leonard is probably better, especially against bigger guys. But after him, I would take Butler defensively over/even with anyone else in that category. He is that good and that versatile defensively.

If he was only a little better as a shooter, he would be darn near the type of perfect player. He isn't a bad shooter, but he definitely isn't a knock-down shooter.

As for the Spurs, I don't think they have the assets to make a trade for either guy.

Troublemaker
06-20-2017, 06:23 PM
Adrian Wojnarowski‏Verified account @WojVerticalNBA (https://twitter.com/WojVerticalNBA) 11m11 minutes ago (https://twitter.com/WojVerticalNBA/status/877287243236462592)
Lakers are trading Tim Mozgov and D'Angelo Russell to Nets for Brook Lopez and 27th pick Thursday, sources say.



Wow, that's the cost of signing Mozgov to a dumb contract. You have to give away a young asset like Russell* to get rid of the contract. Lopez's contract is expiring, so the Lakers are setting themselves up for 2018 free agency. I wouldn't be surprised if they dropped out of the Paul George pursuit at this point.

* While there is some reason to believe Russell won't ever live up to his #2 draft slot, it's also a bit early to be giving up on him. That's why the Nets were interested and willing to take on Mozgov.

pfrduke
06-20-2017, 06:27 PM
Adrian Wojnarowski‏Verified account @WojVerticalNBA (https://twitter.com/WojVerticalNBA) 11m11 minutes ago (https://twitter.com/WojVerticalNBA/status/877287243236462592)
Lakers are trading Tim Mozgov and D'Angelo Russell to Nets for Brook Lopez and 27th pick Thursday, sources say.



Wow, that's the cost of signing Mozgov to a dumb contract. You have to give away a young asset like Russell* to get rid of the contract. Lopez's contract is expiring, so the Lakers are setting themselves up for 2018 free agency. I wouldn't be surprised if they dropped out of the Paul George pursuit at this point.

* While there is some reason to believe Russell won't ever live up to his #2 draft slot, it's also a bit early to be giving up on him. That's why the Nets were interested and willing to take on Mozgov.

Since the Nets basically never have their first round pick again, this is the only way for them to get young talent. Eating Mozgov's salary for three years isn't a bad way to do it, and Russell seems like a worthy risk to take a flier on.

drummerdevil
06-20-2017, 06:27 PM
Adrian Wojnarowski‏Verified account @WojVerticalNBA (https://twitter.com/WojVerticalNBA) 11m11 minutes ago (https://twitter.com/WojVerticalNBA/status/877287243236462592)
Lakers are trading Tim Mozgov and D'Angelo Russell to Nets for Brook Lopez and 27th pick Thursday, sources say.



Wow, that's the cost of signing Mozgov to a dumb contract. You have to give away a young asset like Russell* to get rid of the contract. Lopez's contract is expiring, so the Lakers are setting themselves up for 2018 free agency. I wouldn't be surprised if they dropped out of the Paul George pursuit at this point.

* While there is some reason to believe Russell won't ever live up to his #2 draft slot, it's also a bit early to be giving up on him. That's why the Nets were interested and willing to take on Mozgov.

This is a terrible trade for both sides IMO. The Nets give up their best player by far for a young player who is not living up to the hype and a terrible contract. Also, might I mention that Russell is a point guard, which Lin is also? Who is the ball-dominant? Then the Lakers give up a core piece of their future for an expiring contract. Is this confirmation that they're drafting Ball? I just don't see this working out well for either side.

kshepinthehouse
06-20-2017, 06:34 PM
This is a terrible trade for both sides IMO. The Nets give up their best player by far for a young player who is not living up to the hype and a terrible contract. Also, might I mention that Russell is a point guard, which Lin is also? Who is the ball-dominant? Then the Lakers give up a core piece of their future for an expiring contract. Is this confirmation that they're drafting Ball? I just don't see this working out well for either side.

Must mean the Lakers are taking Ball.

Troublemaker
06-20-2017, 07:24 PM
This is a terrible trade for both sides IMO. The Nets give up their best player by far for a young player who is not living up to the hype and a terrible contract. Also, might I mention that Russell is a point guard, which Lin is also? Who is the ball-dominant? Then the Lakers give up a core piece of their future for an expiring contract. Is this confirmation that they're drafting Ball? I just don't see this working out well for either side.

I think the Nets made a good trade. Russell is only 21 years old and could still blossom. Lopez is expiring and isn't part of the future for a rebuilding team like the Nets anyway. But I think you're right to criticize the Lakers.


Since the Nets basically never have their first round pick again, this is the only way for them to get young talent. Eating Mozgov's salary for three years isn't a bad way to do it, and Russell seems like a worthy risk to take a flier on.

Excellent point.

BigZ
06-20-2017, 07:39 PM
Lakers have offered Pacers 27,28 plus Clarkson or Randle for George. Unless Boston offered the 3 pick that's the best deal Pacers will get

Ichabod Drain
06-20-2017, 07:40 PM
This is a terrible trade for both sides IMO. The Nets give up their best player by far for a young player who is not living up to the hype and a terrible contract. Also, might I mention that Russell is a point guard, which Lin is also? Who is the ball-dominant? Then the Lakers give up a core piece of their future for an expiring contract. Is this confirmation that they're drafting Ball? I just don't see this working out well for either side.

Not sure what people were expecting from Russell but he's been pretty darn good so far. Per 36 min: 19.6 pts 6 ast 4.5 reb. Shooting 35% from three. He's only 21.

drummerdevil
06-20-2017, 07:59 PM
Lakers have offered Pacers 27,28 plus Clarkson or Randle for George. Unless Boston offered the 3 pick that's the best deal Pacers will get

If I'm the Pacers, I take it and then go into rebuilding mode. Guess that's why I'm not a GM, though. Might want a little more value, maybe a future first as well.

Atlanta Duke
06-20-2017, 08:30 PM
I just don't see this working out well for either side.

The Ringer says Lakers clearing cap space for two contracts - George (now if Pacers will trade) and to make a run at LeBron after next season

https://theringer.com/lakers-dangelo-russell-trade-magic-johnson-paul-george-258cb7748d2d

Neals384
06-20-2017, 09:26 PM
Charlotte gets: Howard and pick #31
Atlanta gets: Miles Plumlee, Marco Belinelli and pick #41.

pfrduke
06-21-2017, 02:23 AM
Charlotte gets: Howard and pick #31
Atlanta gets: Miles Plumlee, Marco Belinelli and pick #41.

The Dwight Howard homecoming lasted exactly one painful year. It's a pretty sad reflection of how far he's fallen that Miles Plumlee and Marco Belinelli is all he can draw in return (and the Hawks even have to give up ground in a pick swap)


(also, since it's Miles, this is MP1)

kshepinthehouse
06-21-2017, 04:34 AM
The Dwight Howard homecoming lasted exactly one painful year. It's a pretty sad reflection of how far he's fallen that Miles Plumlee and Marco Belinelli is all he can draw in return (and the Hawks even have to give up ground in a pick swap)


(also, since it's Miles, this is MP1)

I really wish the Hornets wouldn't have traded for him. I think I'd rather have Plumlee and Belinelli. I loved it when Belinelli played for the Spurs. Warriors or Spurs would be perfect team for him with their superb ball movement.

flyingdutchdevil
06-21-2017, 09:32 AM
Charlotte gets: Howard and pick #31
Atlanta gets: Miles Plumlee, Marco Belinelli and pick #41.

My god Howard is worth very little in this league.

It's well known that MP1 has one of the worst contracts in the league (say what you want about Duke players, but they are excellent at negotiating! Singler and MP1 have 2 of the worst contracts in the league and they're getting paid so much to do so little).

I can't believe that Hawks couldn't get at least a first rounder for Howard. How is that possible?

kshepinthehouse
06-21-2017, 09:43 AM
My god Howard is worth very little in this league.

It's well known that MP1 has one of the worst contracts in the league (say what you want about Duke players, but they are excellent at negotiating! Singler and MP1 have 2 of the worst contracts in the league and they're getting paid so much to do so little).

I can't believe that Hawks couldn't get at least a first rounder for Howard. How is that possible?

He's a broke down player at this point and has always seemed like a cancer vs a winner.

flyingdutchdevil
06-21-2017, 09:44 AM
Fair trade by both teams. Nets get the player with more upside (he's still 21), but they are left with a terrible contract (3 years and $49M left). Lakers get a proven low-post player who can't play defense to save his life (Okafor, there is hope for you yet!)

I am really baffled by all these terrible contracts. The more I read about trades, the more I can't understand how you can pay players with PERs <10 over $10M per year.

flyingdutchdevil
06-21-2017, 09:50 AM
He's a broke down player at this point and has always seemed like a cancer vs a winner.

He averaged 13.5 points and 12.7 rebounds per year. His defense is still stellar. He's still very effective as an NBA 5.

But I agree on the cancer part. He's a horrible influence on young players.

Troublemaker
06-21-2017, 09:57 AM
Lakers have offered Pacers 27,28 plus Clarkson or Randle for George. Unless Boston offered the 3 pick that's the best deal Pacers will get

It would be supremely disappointing to Cavs backers (or Kyrie / Dahntay backers, in my case) if Cleveland doesn't beat that offer. Trade Love to a third team and you will have the assets to beat L.A.'s offer. But also, maybe the Pacers want Love and not the assets he's worth.

Re: Love, the Cavs have two guaranteed years with him remaining, and then he has a player option for a 3rd year (http://hoopshype.com/player/kevin-love/salary/). Would I trade 2 guaranteed years of Love for 1 guaranteed year of Paul George? Heck, yeah. Lebron has one year remaining with the Cavs. Gotta maximize that year. And maybe, just maybe, George learns to love the Cavs locker room culture and playing with Lebron and Kyrie and/or maybe George is the piece the Cavs need to take the Warriors to 7 games and maybe even win it, and then George and Lebron re-sign with the Cavs.



My god Howard is worth very little in this league.

It's well known that MP1 has one of the worst contracts in the league (say what you want about Duke players, but they are excellent at negotiating! Singler and MP1 have 2 of the worst contracts in the league and they're getting paid so much to do so little).

I can't believe that Hawks couldn't get at least a first rounder for Howard. How is that possible?

He turns 32 in December, is a bad offensive player, and really regressed defensively last season.

kshepinthehouse
06-21-2017, 10:05 AM
He averaged 13.5 points and 12.7 rebounds per year. His defense is still stellar. He's still very effective as an NBA 5.

But I agree on the cancer part. He's a horrible influence on young players.

I think the value of the NBA 5 overall has gone way down vs 20 years ago.

Indoor66
06-21-2017, 11:05 AM
He's a broke down player at this point and has always seemed like a cancer vs a winner.

I have never liked him and agree with this post. He reminds me of the line from Bull Durham: He has a Million Dollar Arm and a Twenty Cent Head. Howard has never been a winner and has not, really, improved on his skills during his career - beyond marginal improvement.

flyingdutchdevil
06-21-2017, 11:44 AM
I have never liked him and agree with this post. He reminds me of the line from Bull Durham: He has a Million Dollar Arm and a Twenty Cent Head. Howard has never been a winner and has not, really, improved on his skills during his career - beyond marginal improvement.

He led the Magic to the Finals. Yes - they got swept. But leading your team to the Finals is a helluva accomplishment.

He currently isn't a winner, and your quote still holds, but never calling him a winner is disingenuous (and yes yes....I understand that he didn't WIN the NBA championship with the Magic. But by that definition, every Duke player sans Ferry, Irving, and Battier is in the same boat as Howard).

JasonEvans
06-21-2017, 12:11 PM
It's well known that MP1 has one of the worst contracts in the league (say what you want about Duke players, but they are excellent at negotiating! Singler and MP1 have 2 of the worst contracts in the league and they're getting paid so much to do so little).

Let's play the "worst contract in the NBA" game.

I nominate Chandler Parsons, owed $72.3 mil over the next 3 years after putting up a PER of 7.69 this year. Of course he was injured so he has potential to be better in the future.
MP1 is owed $37.5 mil over the next 3 seasons and had a PER of 8.43
Singler is owed $9.6 over the next 2 seasons, but basically does not play. His PER was 5.93, but he only played in 32 games.
How about Luol Deng? He is owed $54 mil for the next 3 years and had a PER of 10.13.

Among non-Dukies, there's Bismack Byombo who is owed $51 mil by the Magic over the next 3 seasons. He averaged 6 ppg and had a PER of 12.2, but his playing time was plummeting late in the season. And, who can forget Joakim Noah. He's making $55.6 mil over the next 3 years... this past season he scored in double figures a grand total of 5 times.


I can't believe that Hawks couldn't get at least a first rounder for Howard. How is that possible?

It is worth noting that salaries play a huge role in a trade like this. It is not that Howard was not worth a first rounder, it is that Howard's onerous contract made him a negative asset. If we were merely constructing teams with no regard to salary cap, then Howard would have a lot more worth.

-Jason "stating the obvious, but I felt I needed to say it anyway" Evans

drummerdevil
06-21-2017, 02:57 PM
So rumor has it (I don't really trust this) that Jimmy Butler has demanded a trade to the Cavs, probably for KLove. What are y'all's thoughts on this? It would create a superteam, boost the Cavs defense and create another scoring option and probably a better team. However, would the Bulls even go for this? Does this have any chance of happening? The Bulls should do something with Butler, but is this what they should do? Is the Celtics/76ers trade because the Celtics are stocking up for Butler?

CDu
06-21-2017, 03:04 PM
So rumor has it (I don't really trust this) that Jimmy Butler has demanded a trade to the Cavs, probably for KLove. What are y'all's thoughts on this? It would create a superteam, boost the Cavs defense and create another scoring option and probably a better team. However, would the Bulls even go for this? Does this have any chance of happening? The Bulls should do something with Butler, but is this what they should do? Is the Celtics/76ers trade because the Celtics are stocking up for Butler?

Not sure where you heard that rumor, but it is inconsistent with pretty much everything that has been said regarding Butler. All the rumors I've seen say that Butler wants to stay with Chicago. This rumor sounds either made up or that you misheard what the actual rumors are.

Edouble
06-21-2017, 04:14 PM
Not sure where you heard that rumor, but it is inconsistent with pretty much everything that has been said regarding Butler. All the rumors I've seen say that Butler wants to stay with Chicago. This rumor sounds either made up or that you misheard what the actual rumors are.

Uh, yeah. There is no such rumor that Butler is demanding Cleveland.

Please provide a link or a tweet or something, drummerdevil, as I've been following closely on line all week and have seen nothing like the rumor you are referencing.

LasVegas
06-21-2017, 04:34 PM
http://m.washingtontimes.com/news/2017/jun/20/lebron-james-kyrie-irving-gauging-interest-jimmy-b/

The Chicago sun times has since deleted (altered) the orginal article, but the quote remains in this one.

From what I saw it went from....
Butler wanting to go to the cavs to butler saying he doesn't want to go to the cavs to cav players telling him to stay away. All rumors. Who knows

drummerdevil
06-21-2017, 04:34 PM
I don't even remember where I heard it. Sorry. I just thought I did hear that.

CDu
06-21-2017, 04:53 PM
http://m.washingtontimes.com/news/2017/jun/20/lebron-james-kyrie-irving-gauging-interest-jimmy-b/

The Chicago sun times has since deleted (altered) the orginal article, but the quote remains in this one.

From what I saw it went from...
Butler wanting to go to the cavs to butler saying he doesn't want to go to the cavs to cav players telling him to stay away. All rumors. Who knows

As a general rule, if it is written by Joe Cowley, it should be ignored. He is... how do I say this... not afraid to make stuff completely up to fill a column.

LasVegas
06-21-2017, 05:00 PM
As a general rule, if it is written by Joe Cowley, it should be ignored. He is... how do I say this... not afraid to make stuff completely up to fill a column.

Well, that's good to know! How does someone like that keep a job at a place like the Chicago sun times? Sad world we live in.

CDu
06-21-2017, 05:03 PM
Well, that's good to know! How does someone like that keep a job at a place like the Chicago sun times? Sad world we live in.

These are dark times for the print media industry.

JasonEvans
06-22-2017, 12:38 AM
you know all those sweeps in the NBA playoffs? Well, that cost the league ticket sales and TV revenue. As a result, next year's salary cap will be $2 million less than initially estimated.

The Cap is determined by total league revenues, with half going to the players and half going to the owners. So, with 30 teams that means that the lost playoff games cost the league $120 million!

Jason "Put another way, the Warrior and Cavs super teams were really, really bad for business" Evans

drummerdevil
06-22-2017, 10:30 AM
you know all those sweeps in the NBA playoffs? Well, that cost the league ticket sales and TV revenue. As a result, next year's salary cap will be $2 million less than initially estimated.

The Cap is determined by total league revenues, with half going to the players and half going to the owners. So, with 30 teams that means that the lost playoff games cost the league $120 million!

Jason "Put another way, the Warrior and Cavs super teams were really, really bad for business" Evans

How much does a $2 million cap difference actually change things? It's still a ridiculous amount of money that teams can spend. I think that a $2 million cap difference would just hurt teams trying to put together enough talent to compete with the warriors, and the warriors players are willing to just take small (small being a couple million) pay cuts in order to continue to sweep the playoffs.

CDu
06-22-2017, 11:56 AM
you know all those sweeps in the NBA playoffs? Well, that cost the league ticket sales and TV revenue. As a result, next year's salary cap will be $2 million less than initially estimated.

The Cap is determined by total league revenues, with half going to the players and half going to the owners. So, with 30 teams that means that the lost playoff games cost the league $120 million!

Jason "Put another way, the Warrior and Cavs super teams were really, really bad for business" Evans

To be fair, the $120 million difference isn't just a result of lost playoff revenue. It's a result of a season's worth of deviation from the expected revenue, right?

Jeffrey
06-22-2017, 12:33 PM
As a general rule, if it is written by Joe Cowley, it should be ignored. He is... how do I say this... not afraid to make stuff completely up to fill a column.

Was he one of Dan Rather's apprentices?

Indoor66
06-22-2017, 12:41 PM
Was he one of Dan Rather's apprentices?

No, but I did hear that he once got off a plane in Bosnia....

pfrduke
06-22-2017, 12:47 PM
How much does a $2 million cap difference actually change things? It's still a ridiculous amount of money that teams can spend. I think that a $2 million cap difference would just hurt teams trying to put together enough talent to compete with the warriors, and the warriors players are willing to just take small (small being a couple million) pay cuts in order to continue to sweep the playoffs.

The bolded is the key. Teams plan with a certain cap number in mind. Whereas a team might thought it could free up max cap room by moving a particular guy who had an $8 million contract, now that won't be enough because it would take $10 million to open up that room, and the team might not have a $10 million player it can move. (This is, certainly, an oversimplification, but you get the drift).

Troublemaker
06-22-2017, 01:26 PM

No, but I did hear that he once got off a plane in Bosnia...


But I have to tell you that I don't believe this country has ever practiced true capitalism, and even less so now that the court jester is in charge.

I don't mean to pick on you two since a lot of people break the PPB/political ban, but please stop making political references or taking little shots at political figures you don't like; in these two examples, Hillary and Trump, respectively.

The shots are never funny or insightful or anything that we haven't read thousands of times on facebook, and they're against the rules of this forum. Again, I'm really addressing everyone and only quoting you two because of recency. Thanks.

JasonEvans
06-22-2017, 04:32 PM
To be fair, the $120 million difference isn't just a result of lost playoff revenue. It's a result of a season's worth of deviation from the expected revenue, right?

My understanding is that there was an estimate of the cap given out to teams in April, before the playoffs started. Now that the playoffs ended, the new estimate is $2 mil per team less. So, it is all due to lost playoff revenue. We all heard that 1 NBA finals game was worth something like $12 mil to Golden State. And I am sure the NBA's TV contract calls for some kind of adjustment based on how many games the networks actually get to broadcast. I have to think that each game late in the playoffs carries some kind of significant value to the league... at least $5 mil per game, I would think.

Thanks to Cleveland and Golden State's dominance, we had a total of 14 conference finals and NBA finals games out of a possible 21 (to say nothing of sweeps in earlier rounds). Now that I have thought about it, I am not even remotely surprised that the shortened playoffs cost the league $120 million.

--Jason "as pfr points out, this is a significant difference for teams. Don't think of it as $2 mil out of a $100+ mil cap, think of it as $2 mil out of maybe $10-15 mil that most teams have available to spend on free agents" Evans

drummerdevil
06-22-2017, 05:09 PM
Is anyone else hoping the big names, such as PG13 and Butler get moved tonight, just for the sake of change? I know I am. I love seeing the entire landscape of the NBA change in a night. The NCAA never changes this much this fast.

kshepinthehouse
06-22-2017, 05:32 PM
As much as I don't like UNC players Danny Green is being discussed as an option for the Cavs. He would be a perfect addition for the Cavs. Knockdown shooter, good defender, winning pedigree.

mgtr
06-22-2017, 06:17 PM
As much as I don't like UNC players Danny Green is being discussed as an option for the Cavs. He would be a perfect addition for the Cavs. Knockdown shooter, good defender, winning pedigree.

Not to mention his dancing ability.:D

BD80
06-22-2017, 07:06 PM
As much as I don't like UNC players Danny Green is being discussed as an option for the Cavs. He would be a perfect addition for the Cavs. Knockdown shooter, good defender, winning pedigree.

It is spelled "whining"

weezie
06-22-2017, 10:20 PM
...The NCAA never changes this much this fast.

Never changes, period. Except the mystical law of verticality. I correct myself.

JasonEvans
06-23-2017, 06:00 PM
So, is our consensus that Minnesota pretty much destroyed Chicago with the Butler trade? I'm beyond stunned that Chicago did not have better offers for Butler. I can't imagine that Boston couldn't have made a better offer than that (maybe the Celtics are truly enamored of Tatum... I dunno).

Anyway, I want opinions on where Minnesota will be in the West next season. How many games will they win and what will their seed be (assuming you think they will make the playoffs)? I don't think it is at all insane to believe that Butler, Bennett, and Towns constitute a three-man core that is as good as any in the league aside from Cleveland and Golden State (they have a big four).

Minnesota has gone from 100-1 to 50-1 to win the title (according to Bovada), the biggest move of any team since odds opened in the wake of the Warriors title. Other interesting movers in the wake of the draft and other off-season news:


Boston 16-1 to 12-1
Charlotte 125-1 to 300-1 (apparently, the bettors don't like Dwight)
Indiana 100-1 to 150-1 (Paul George probably gonna leave sooner rather than later)
Lakers 100-1 to 66-1 (George may be headed here)
New Orleans 50-1 to 100-1 (apparently, Vegas hates drafting Frank)
Orlando 100-1 to 500-1 (no idea why this moved)
Philly 100-1 to 66-1 (the Fultz effect)
Golden State 1-1 to 1-1.75 (you have to bet $175 to win $100)
Cleveland 4-1 to 3.5-1

-Jason "see all the Bovada and other odds here (http://www.oddsshark.com/nba/odds/futures)" Evans

CDu
06-23-2017, 06:36 PM
I would say that Chicago destroyed itself in that trade. Gar Forman is one of the worst - if not THE worst GMs in the league. They regularly flub trades, always getting pennies on the dollar:

- traded Korver for a trade exception that they didn't use (so literally for nothing)
- traded Deng's expuring contract (at a time when he was still decent) for Andrew Bynum's nonguaranteed contract and a heavily protected pick, which seemed okay but...
- rather than using said pick in a trade over the years, they let it materialize into a late lottery pick, which they...
- packaged with their own mid-first round pick and essentially two 2nds to move up a few spots to take McDermott
- traded Gibson's expiring contract, PLUS McDermott, PLUS a second rounder for... Cameron Payne

Basically, aside from fleecing the Knicks every once in a while, the Bulls ALWAYS blow it on trades. Which explains why they don't make many: they always lose in trades. They are one of the least staffed, least tuned in organizations in basketball. Aside from Ivica Dukan (international scout), they simply don't have a capable guy in the front office.

So, yeah, Minnesota easily won that deal. I am quite sure that a real GM could get more for one of the top ten players in the game than a 23-year-old who was literally the worst shooter in the NBA last year, a talented kid who recently tore his ACL, and the chance to move up just 9 spots in a deep draft. They should have at least gotten a top-3 pick out of it. Frankly, the #3 pick (keeping their #16 pick), Smart, and Zeller's non-guaranteed contract would have been better, and surely something Boston would have considered.

Oh well, what more can you expect from a franchise that literally sold their 2nd round pick for cash?

As for Minnesota? Well, Butler just carried an AWFUL team to a .500 record last year. I think he will be able to get Minnesota into the playoffs next year. Even in the West. Butler with Towns is a good duo. They need more shooters (Rubio and Wiggins aren't that), but the two at the top are enough.

oakvillebluedevil
06-23-2017, 07:08 PM
Never changes, period. Except the mystical law of verticality. I correct myself.

Meh, even that's a bit up and down

CrazyNotCrazie
06-23-2017, 07:35 PM
So, is our consensus that Minnesota pretty much destroyed Chicago with the Butler trade? I'm beyond stunned that Chicago did not have better offers for Butler. I can't imagine that Boston couldn't have made a better offer than that (maybe the Celtics are truly enamored of Tatum... I dunno).

Anyway, I want opinions on where Minnesota will be in the West next season. How many games will they win and what will their seed be (assuming you think they will make the playoffs)? I don't think it is at all insane to believe that Butler, Bennett, and Towns constitute a three-man core that is as good as any in the league aside from Cleveland and Golden State (they have a big four).

Minnesota has gone from 100-1 to 50-1 to win the title (according to Bovada), the biggest move of any team since odds opened in the wake of the Warriors title. Other interesting movers in the wake of the draft and other off-season news:


Boston 16-1 to 12-1
Charlotte 125-1 to 300-1 (apparently, the bettors don't like Dwight)
Indiana 100-1 to 150-1 (Paul George probably gonna leave sooner rather than later)
Lakers 100-1 to 66-1 (George may be headed here)
New Orleans 50-1 to 100-1 (apparently, Vegas hates drafting Frank)
Orlando 100-1 to 500-1 (no idea why this moved)
Philly 100-1 to 66-1 (the Fultz effect)
Golden State 1-1 to 1-1.75 (you have to bet $175 to win $100)
Cleveland 4-1 to 3.5-1

-Jason "see all the Bovada and other odds here (http://www.oddsshark.com/nba/odds/futures)" Evans

I assume you are referring to Butler, Wiggins and Towns? I think they want to forget about Bennett as quickly as possible up there! Or else maybe you meant Tyus Jones...

JasonEvans
06-24-2017, 01:58 AM
I assume you are referring to Butler, Wiggins and Towns? I think they want to forget about Bennett as quickly as possible up there! Or else maybe you meant Tyus Jones...

Oh boy... of course I meant Wiggins. I got my double-consonant Cavs #1 picks who got traded for Love jumbled for a moment. Sorry.

Thanks.

BD80
06-25-2017, 05:29 PM
Milos Teodosic of Serbia reportedly could be heading to the NBA, and is linked to the Jazz ...

According to Fran Fraschilla:

"Offensively, he's the best passer in the world, ... Now, he will not guard a chair, but he's a brilliant offensive player and an ultra-competitor."

http://www.cbssports.com/nba/news/utah-jazz-reportedly-could-land-one-of-the-top-international-players-on-the-market/

Jay29
06-25-2017, 09:05 PM
Oh well, what more can you expect from a franchise that literally sold their 2nd round pick for cash?

Based on some of the other things you say in your post, you clearly know more about NBA wheeling and dealing than I do. But don't teams "sell" their 2nd round picks all the time, if they like their roster and could use the cash? You can't count on franchise-altering talent in the 2nd.

Not to say the Bulls' move you reference was a smart one at the time, but in a vacuum I don't think 2nd-for-cash is outrageously bad.

CDu
06-25-2017, 09:12 PM
Based on some of the other things you say in your post, you clearly know more about NBA wheeling and dealing than I do. But don't teams "sell" their 2nd round picks all the time, if they like their roster and could use the cash? You can't count on franchise-altering talent in the 2nd.

Not to say the Bulls' move you reference was a smart one at the time, but in a vacuum I don't think 2nd-for-cash is outrageously bad.

I wouldn't say "all the time." But yes, it does happen some. But it usually happens with teams that like their roster. Not teams starting a rebuild (as the Bulls' President admitted after the trade). When you are starting a rebuild, you want more picks, not less.

kshepinthehouse
06-26-2017, 06:42 AM
So new reports are surfacing that we could see Wade and Melo land with the Cavs. I'm my opinion that won't help them compete with the Warriors. I think it just makes them older and slower especially on the defensive end. Offense wasn't really the problem for the Cavs in the finals. What are your thoughts?

CDu
06-26-2017, 08:34 AM
So new reports are surfacing that we could see Wade and Melo land with the Cavs. I'm my opinion that won't help them compete with the Warriors. I think it just makes them older and slower especially on the defensive end. Offense wasn't really the problem for the Cavs in the finals. What are your thoughts?

Seems unlikely. I can see the Bulls (who are rebuilding) working out a buyout with Wade. At that point, I could see him signing a vet minimum deal with the Cavs. But I am not sure how Carmelo gets to Cleveland.

If it did happen, it certainly doesn't get the Cavs closer to the title. Wade is atrocious defensively these days, and can't shoot. Anthony is a bit better defensively, but is he actually an upgrade over Love?

I haven't seen this rumor anywhere, but it seems like someone just spitballing hypotheticals rather than something actually in the works.

Newton_14
06-26-2017, 08:54 AM
I wouldn't say "all the time." But yes, it does happen some. But it usually happens with teams that like their roster. Not teams starting a rebuild (as the Bulls' President admitted after the trade). When you are starting a rebuild, you want more picks, not less.
Several years back a MLB Player in the minors was traded for a batch of baseball bats. Like 400 bats or something. Anything is on the table for a trade of low value assets be it a player or a draft pick. Not uncommon.

CDu
06-26-2017, 09:29 AM
Several years back a MLB Player in the minors was traded for a batch of baseball bats. Like 400 bats or something. Anything is on the table for a trade of low value assets be it a player or a draft pick. Not uncommon.

The trade you referenced wasn't an MLB player. It was a minor leaguer in the independent (i.e., not affiliated with MLB) league. I am not sure that I would reference a trade by a cash-strapped independent league team as a comp to one of the most profitable teams in the NBA.

In the NBA, sometimes teams sell late-2nd round picks. This is occasionally done in a weak draft when a team has a maxed-out roster and can't use a guy unlikely to make a roster anyway. Neither applies in this case: the Bulls are now a rebuilding team in need of young talent to fill out the roster; their pick was early in the 2nd round; and this was a very deep draft.

fraggler
06-26-2017, 09:51 AM
Seems unlikely. I can see the Bulls (who are rebuilding) working out a buyout with Wade. At that point, I could see him signing a vet minimum deal with the Cavs. But I am not sure how Carmelo gets to Cleveland.

If it did happen, it certainly doesn't get the Cavs closer to the title. Wade is atrocious defensively these days, and can't shoot. Anthony is a bit better defensively, but is he actually an upgrade over Love?

I haven't seen this rumor anywhere, but it seems like someone just spitballing hypotheticals rather than something actually in the works.

I think in this scenario, both would be buyouts. But like you said, neither is really the defensive upgrade that the Cavs need unless Anthony goes to his Team USA ways once he's on a super team (if he even has enough left in the tank to be that effective). Bench scoring would be more potent, but Paul George really is the ideal addition as a super 2 way player. Not sure if losing Love makes it worth it unless Tristan significantly ups his play. Really wish Bogut hadn't gotten hurt. His rim protection would have been very, very useful. Shumpert is a bad basketball player in general. I'd rather have Korver take his minutes so he can get into a shooting rhythm.

kAzE
06-26-2017, 11:28 AM
So, is our consensus that Minnesota pretty much destroyed Chicago with the Butler trade? I'm beyond stunned that Chicago did not have better offers for Butler. I can't imagine that Boston couldn't have made a better offer than that (maybe the Celtics are truly enamored of Tatum... I dunno).

Anyway, I want opinions on where Minnesota will be in the West next season. How many games will they win and what will their seed be (assuming you think they will make the playoffs)? I don't think it is at all insane to believe that Butler, Bennett, and Towns constitute a three-man core that is as good as any in the league aside from Cleveland and Golden State (they have a big four).

I'm not quite as sanguine on their playoff chances as CDu. I think he's got a bit of homer bias when it comes to Jimmy Butler, who I think is closer to the 15th best player in the league than top 10.

Here's my case: Minnesota was 31-51 last year. They were a young team, with young stars. Give them a year of improvement, and I'll be generous and say they improve 4 games, to 35-47. Does this trade make them 6+ wins better? I think it's hard to say. This team still has a ton of flaws.

First, they are almost just as bad at shooting as the Bulls were last year. At least the Bulls kind of had Mirotic and McDermott. Who's the Wolves go-to shooter? Bjelica? Casspi? Tyus Jones? This team has less perimeter shooting than almost anyone else in the league. Butler can't really shoot, neither can Wiggins, Shabazz, or Rubio. The best shooters they have in their top 7 are Towns (36%) and Dieng (37%). I don't think it's in any team's best interest to have their starting big men spotting up from 3, rather than controlling the paint/glass.

Defensively, does adding Butler help them? Of course, Butler is one of the best defensive players in the league. But can he transform one of the WORST defensive teams (tied with Sacramento for 26th) in the league into a playoff defense in 1 year? I'm skeptical. Towns and Wiggins can only get better defensively, but they have been flat out terrible defensively in their young careers thus far. The bad news is, they are still really young. Towns is now 22 and Wiggins 23. They will still be terrible on defense next year.

3rd, Wiggins and Butler are kind of the same player. They both need the ball in their hands ALOT. I've seen the argument that Butler played off the ball often when Derrick Rose was on the Bulls, but since he's become the All-Star player he is now, he's been EXTREMELY ball dominant, and given that he's the star of the team, I don't see him suddenly needing the ball less. Then there's also Rubio, who also needs the ball, and who is actually USELESS off the ball. These pieces don't fit.

When you get a player like Butler, you surround him with shooting. Look at what LeBron has done with his roster. He's a guy who can get into the paint and find open guys, just like Butler. But instead, Butler has Wiggins and Rubio spotting up . . . those guys' defenders aren't staying home, they are double or triple teaming Butler in the paint.

So, they suck at defense, they can't shoot, and their 3 primary ball handlers kind of all do the same thing and all need the ball constantly (and they all can't shoot). How is this a playoff team again?

I think it's pretty hard to make the case that they are better than the top 7 in the West (as they are constituted prior to FA):

1. Golden State
2. San Antonio
3. Houston
4. Clippers
5. Utah
6. OKC
7. Memphis

I think they are in that next group of 4-5 teams hunting the 8th playoff spot: Portland, Denver, New Orleans, and Minnesota (maybe Dallas/Sacramento get into that conversation)

The Wolves are really talented, and could possibly get into the playoffs based on that alone, but I could easily see Portland, whose roster makes way more sense in the modern NBA, beating them out for the 8th playoff spot.

JasonEvans
06-26-2017, 12:42 PM
Then there's also Rubio, who also needs the ball, and who is actually USELESS off the ball. These pieces don't fit.

When you get a player like Butler, you surround him with shooting. Look at what LeBron has done with his roster. He's a guy who can get into the paint and find open guys, just like Butler. But instead, Butler has Wiggins and Rubio spotting up . . . those guys' defenders aren't staying home, they are double or triple teaming Butler in the paint.

So, they suck at defense, they can't shoot, and their 3 primary ball handlers kind of all do the same thing and all need the ball constantly (and they all can't shoot). How is this a playoff team again?

Word is coming out of Minnesota that they are intent on dealing Rubio (http://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/19741720/minnesota-timberwolves-remain-intent-dealing-point-guard-ricky-rubio)in the offseason.


Sources told ESPN that the Wolves, despite Rubio's strong second half last season, are trying to add more shooting to their lineup and continue to make the Spaniard available via trade.

Now, before you go assuming the TWolves want Tyus to be their PG, it is worth noting that the Wolves are dead set on getting a veteran PG to be their starter. It seems their intent is to get a shoot-first PG to play with Wiggins and Butler because those two guys don't really need a passer to create offense for them. You know who could be a decent fit is Austin Rivers. He knocked down 37% of his 3s last year. George Hill from Utah could also work if Utah decides to rebuild if Hayward leaves to Boston (or elsewhere). I doubt you could get Houston's Patrick Beverley or SA's Patty Mills but those guys would be ideal fits as well.

-Jason "no matter what happens, the trade of Dunn almost certainly means that Tyus plays 16+ minutes per game next season" Evans

kAzE
06-26-2017, 01:00 PM
Word is coming out of Minnesota that they are intent on dealing Rubio (http://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/19741720/minnesota-timberwolves-remain-intent-dealing-point-guard-ricky-rubio)in the offseason.

Ugh, I would get a notification that they are shopping Rubio literally seconds after I spent half an hour on that post. But that's still up in the air. I think I can answer your question with their current roster in mind.

CDu
06-26-2017, 01:32 PM
Ugh, I would get a notification that they are shopping Rubio literally seconds after I spent half an hour on that post. But that's still up in the air. I think I can answer your question with their current roster in mind.

If it makes you feel any better, I think the Wolves would make the playoffs even with Rubio. But if they replace Rubio with a "3 and D" PG, they are even more likely to make it.

Butler: I admit I'm a big fan of his, but statistically speaking I think he's top-10. Win shares (3rd), win shares per 48 min (6th), Box plus/minus (10th), real plus/minus (7th) all suggest he belongs in that category. But, even if he were, say, 12-15, that doesn't really discredit the idea that he substantially changes the equation for Minnesota.

Shooting argument: You mention that the key is putting shooters around Butler. Well, the Bulls this year... didn't. And never really have, actually. Mirotic is not a great 3pt shooter (34.2% this year, 35.0% for his career), and actually shot worse than Wiggins did this year (35.6%). As a stretch-4 and pick-and-roll/pop partner, Towns (36.7%) is WAY more valuable than Mirotic. McDermott (37.6%) is, but could never establish himself as a regular due to atrocious defense. Wiggins is a better shooter and player than Wade at this point. Rubio and Rondo are somewhat of a wash. Worth noting that the Bulls (with Butler's 36.7%) was one of the worst shooting teams in the NBA (34.0%) last year. That didn't seem to slow Butler down.

Rubio: the same argument you make against Rubio working alongside Butler could be made for Rajon Rondo, only Rubio is a better defender than Rondo is these days. And as I said, Rubio (like Rondo) would allow Butler to take some possessions off on offense, while also creating easy bucket opportunities for Butler when he is off the ball.

Wiggins: the same argument you make against Wiggins could be made for Dwyane Wade, only at least Wiggins is a better shooter and has athletic potential on defense. I'd argue that Wiggins and the Wolves would do BETTER by having the ball less. Butler (whose offensive efficiency is among the best in basketball despite being a high-volume player) is a HUGE upgrade over Wiggins as primary playmaker.

Competition: You have listed the Clippers and Utah above Minnesota. Frankly, I'm not convinced either of those two teams are playoff-bound next year. The Jazz stand a REALLY good chance of losing Hayward, while Griffin and Paul are both opting out of their contracts this summer.

Your arguments do hold water that they won't likely be an elite team next year. I completely agree that they won't be able to compete with Golden State or (as constituted) Cleveland or San Antonio. But they don't have to be elite to make the playoffs. Frankly, I don't see a reasonable argument why a team with two of the top 20 players in the NBA (Towns and Butler) would miss the playoffs. I think they are instantly well ahead of the Portland/Dallas/Denver/New Orleans (who I think will make a move up next year), and probably ahead of Memphis (their stars are all now aging), Utah (definitely if they lose Hayward, likely even if they don't), and LA (if Paul leaves).

English
06-26-2017, 01:39 PM
Word is coming out of Minnesota that they are intent on dealing Rubio (http://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/19741720/minnesota-timberwolves-remain-intent-dealing-point-guard-ricky-rubio)in the offseason.



Now, before you go assuming the TWolves want Tyus to be their PG, it is worth noting that the Wolves are dead set on getting a veteran PG to be their starter. It seems their intent is to get a shoot-first PG to play with Wiggins and Butler because those two guys don't really need a passer to create offense for them. You know who could be a decent fit is Austin Rivers. He knocked down 37% of his 3s last year. George Hill from Utah could also work if Utah decides to rebuild if Hayward leaves to Boston (or elsewhere). I doubt you could get Houston's Patrick Beverley or SA's Patty Mills but those guys would be ideal fits as well.

-Jason "no matter what happens, the trade of Dunn almost certainly means that Tyus plays 16+ minutes per game next season" Evans

I think you'd be surprised:
http://www.cbssports.com/nba/news/nba-trade-rumors-rockets-reportedly-shopping-guard-patrick-beverley/

gam7
06-26-2017, 02:17 PM
I wouldn't say "all the time." But yes, it does happen some. But it usually happens with teams that like their roster. Not teams starting a rebuild (as the Bulls' President admitted after the trade). When you are starting a rebuild, you want more picks, not less.

The Warriors in the Joe Lacob era have done this a lot, and it hasn't always worked out. In 2011, they bought the 39th pick for $2M and used it to draft Jeremy Tyler. In 2013, they bought Nemanja Nedovic (30th pick) on draft night from the Suns. Of course, they famously (well, famous among Bay Area basketball fans) bought the 38th pick last year for $2.4M to pick up Patrick McCaw, which was, and will continue to prove to be, a tremendous success. Bell also was the 38th pick.

So, it doesn't always work, but given the current, high profile nature of the Warriors, if Jordan Bell is a success (making two successes in a row with this strategy), you can bet more teams will try to buy picks (and more teams will hesitate to get rid of them) going forward. And teams will hesitate to sell picks to the Warriors. I would imagine the source of the $3.5M maximum cash payment for draft picks is the CBA, and if more teams want to employ the strategy, I bet that figure will go up in the next CBA negotiations.

The move makes a lot of sense for the Warriors this year, where the team has only five players under contract at the moment. They need to find some low cost bodies, and paying $3.5M (that I don't think counts against the cap) for a player who will make the league minimum for a year and then a little more than the league minimum in year 2 is kind of a no-brainer.

CDu
06-26-2017, 02:18 PM
I think you'd be surprised:
http://www.cbssports.com/nba/news/nba-trade-rumors-rockets-reportedly-shopping-guard-patrick-beverley/

To be clear, the Wolves would LOVE to get Beverley. That would have to be in a separate deal from Rubio though, as the Rockets are trying to dump salary rather than take on salary.

kAzE
06-26-2017, 04:20 PM
Your arguments do hold water that they won't likely be an elite team next year. I completely agree that they won't be able to compete with Golden State or (as constituted) Cleveland or San Antonio. But they don't have to be elite to make the playoffs. Frankly, I don't see a reasonable argument why a team with two of the top 20 players in the NBA (Towns and Butler) would miss the playoffs. I think they are instantly well ahead of the Portland/Dallas/Denver/New Orleans (who I think will make a move up next year), and probably ahead of Memphis (their stars are all now aging), Utah (definitely if they lose Hayward, likely even if they don't), and LA (if Paul leaves).

I'm very aware that the Bulls were a terrible shooting team. Actually, that was my very first point:


First, they are almost just as bad at shooting as the Bulls were last year.

My point was that those 2 teams are really similar. Non-shooting point guard, and non-shooting wings. The only difference is that the Bulls were the #6 defensive team, and Minnesota was #26. IMO, Butler does not transform Minnesota into the #6 defensive team. Those other guys are just too young.

That Bulls team would not have made the playoffs in the West. They were the 8th seed in the East. Now, Butler is on a Western team with more or less the same configuration if they don't find a suitor for Rubio. The Bulls had less talent, but the Wolves are much younger, so I think it's a wash.

Yes, your point about the Clippers and Jazz is valid, but that's why I put that caveat in there (before FA). The Clips are a total mystery right now, but IMO, the Jazz can still easily be better than the Timberwolves even minus Hayward. The George Hill situation will be a factor, but Gobert is the best center in the league, and Hood will only get better with Hayward out of the picture.

CDu
06-26-2017, 04:41 PM
I'm very aware that the Bulls were a terrible shooting team. Actually, that was my very first point:



My point was that those 2 teams are really similar. Non-shooting point guard, and non-shooting wings. The only difference is that the Bulls were the #6 defensive team, and Minnesota was #26. IMO, Butler does not transform Minnesota into the #6 defensive team. Those other guys are just too young.

That Bulls team would not have made the playoffs in the West. They were the 8th seed in the East. Now, Butler is on a Western team with more or less the same configuration if they don't find a suitor for Rubio. The Bulls had less talent, but the Wolves are much younger, so I think it's a wash.

Yes, your point about the Clippers and Jazz is valid, but that's why I put that caveat in there (before FA). The Clips are a total mystery right now, but IMO, the Jazz can still easily be better than the Timberwolves even minus Hayward. The George Hill situation will be a factor, but Gobert is the best center in the league, and Hood will only get better with Hayward out of the picture.

There is one otber glaring difference: the Wolves have Towns. The Bulls have nothing remotely comparable to him. I would argue that the Bulls' supporting cast this year was comparable to the Wolves... except for Towns. Put Towns on last year's Bulls team and they win 50+ games. Now put Butler with Thibs and a year-older Towns and Wiggins, and I think that is a 45-win team. Even in the West.

And sorry, but there is absolutely no way the Jazz without Hayward are better than the Wolves with Butler. Hood, Hill, and Gobert are nice complementary players. But not difference makers as first options.

JasonEvans
06-26-2017, 07:03 PM
I think you'd be surprised:
http://www.cbssports.com/nba/news/nba-trade-rumors-rockets-reportedly-shopping-guard-patrick-beverley/

I'm stupefied.

Houston wants to get rid of Patrick Beverley...

Wow...

There must be something I am missing. Beverley is the ultimate 3-and-D player. He was 1st Team All-NBA Defensive Team this year... HE IS ONE OF THE 5 BEST DEFENDERS IN BASKETBALL!! He hits 3s at a very nice 37.5% rate over his career. He's 28 so he is in the middle of his prime. Of course, in today's NBA is seems everything is about cap space and contracts. Goodness knows there are a lot of wretched contracts around the league. So, what does his contract look like?

Beverly is due to make $5.5 mil in 2017-18. After that, there is a team option year at $5.0 million (yes, his contract actually goes down in the team option year?!?!?!). To call that a bargain is a massive understatement. I think there are folks who compute the value of players in the NBA and I bet Beverley is worth over $10 mil a season.

But Houston wants to deal him so they can clear another $5 mil in contract space. To be clear, this extra $5 mil won't get them to the max, where they could make a run at Gordon Hayward or Chris Paul or Blake Griffin or Paul Milsaps... it would probably just allow them to overspend on some other good, but not great free agent.

If I were the Minnesota GM, I would run to Houston to make a deal for Beverley. Add him to the TWolves and I think they instantly become a contender for a top 4 seed in the West.

-Jason "I just do not understand the NBA sometimes" Evans

kAzE
06-26-2017, 07:19 PM
There is one otber glaring difference: the Wolves have Towns. The Bulls have nothing remotely comparable to him. I would argue that the Bulls' supporting cast this year was comparable to the Wolves... except for Towns. Put Towns on last year's Bulls team and they win 50+ games. Now put Butler with Thibs and a year-older Towns and Wiggins, and I think that is a 45-win team. Even in the West.

So, the one thing that I could see happening for them to get 50 wins is Wiggins and Towns making leaps. They obviously have immense potential, but I'm basically betting that they don't get there in 2018 just yet. Towns is particularly awful on defense. He had an abysmal 117.3 defensive rating in the 4th quarter of games. He'll get there eventually, but probably when he's like 24 or 25, not this year. You gotta at least not be terrible before you can be good.


And sorry, but there is absolutely no way the Jazz without Hayward are better than the Wolves with Butler. Hood, Hill, and Gobert are nice complementary players. But not difference makers as first options.

Yeah, the Jazz need a star offensive guy for sure, but they have a TON of B to B+ players. Gobert is an A, he's going to be their star next year. Hood, Favors, Hill, Ingles, Johnson, Mack, and Diaw are all competent. Johnson seems to still be capable of running an offense at times. Maybe even Exum finally gets healthy and becomes something. They also got Donovan Mitchell and Tony Bradley in the draft, both of whom are pretty solid defensively. Mitchell projects to be a VERY good perimeter defender with some scoring upside. That's a lot of really solid guys, and I wouldn't be surprised if they make a move to upgrade the roster.

The Wolves do have the 2 best players between the teams, but their depth is pretty questionable. Not sure what happens in free agency just yet (who knows, Hayward might stay), but I'd feel fairly confident saying Utah will have a better record. Depth matters in the regular season.

CDu
06-26-2017, 08:13 PM
So, the one thing that I could see happening for them to get 50 wins is Wiggins and Towns making leaps. They obviously have immense potential, but I'm basically betting that they don't get there in 2018 just yet. Towns is particularly awful on defense. He had an abysmal 117.3 defensive rating in the 4th quarter of games. He'll get there eventually, but probably when he's like 24 or 25, not this year. You gotta at least not be terrible before you can be good.



Yeah, the Jazz need a star offensive guy for sure, but they have a TON of B to B+ players. Gobert is an A, he's going to be their star next year. Hood, Favors, Hill, Ingles, Johnson, Mack, and Diaw are all competent. Johnson seems to still be capable of running an offense at times. Maybe even Exum finally gets healthy and becomes something. They also got Donovan Mitchell and Tony Bradley in the draft, both of whom are pretty solid defensively. Mitchell projects to be a VERY good perimeter defender with some scoring upside. That's a lot of really solid guys, and I wouldn't be surprised if they make a move to upgrade the roster.

The Wolves do have the 2 best players between the teams, but their depth is pretty questionable. Not sure what happens in free agency just yet (who knows, Hayward might stay), but I'd feel fairly confident saying Utah will have a better record. Depth matters in the regular season.

We will see.

NSDukeFan
06-26-2017, 08:56 PM
So, the one thing that I could see happening for them to get 50 wins is Wiggins and Towns making leaps. They obviously have immense potential, but I'm basically betting that they don't get there in 2018 just yet. Towns is particularly awful on defense. He had an abysmal 117.3 defensive rating in the 4th quarter of games. He'll get there eventually, but probably when he's like 24 or 25, not this year. You gotta at least not be terrible before you can be good.



Yeah, the Jazz need a star offensive guy for sure, but they have a TON of B to B+ players. Gobert is an A, he's going to be their star next year. Hood, Favors, Hill, Ingles, Johnson, Mack, and Diaw are all competent. Johnson seems to still be capable of running an offense at times. Maybe even Exum finally gets healthy and becomes something. They also got Donovan Mitchell and Tony Bradley in the draft, both of whom are pretty solid defensively. Mitchell projects to be a VERY good perimeter defender with some scoring upside. That's a lot of really solid guys, and I wouldn't be surprised if they make a move to upgrade the roster.

The Wolves do have the 2 best players between the teams, but their depth is pretty questionable. Not sure what happens in free agency just yet (who knows, Hayward might stay), but I'd feel fairly confident saying Utah will have a better record. Depth matters in the regular season.

Without Hayward, I think I would rather have Denver's roster - Jokic, Plumlee, Gallinari, Wilson Chandler, Trey Lyles, Tyler Lydon, Gary Harris, Jamaal Murray, Mudiay, Jameer Nelson, Will Barton.

duke74
06-26-2017, 09:13 PM
JJ rumors to the Nets today in the NY Post. Owns a penthouse in DUMBO (hot area in Bklyn for the non-NYers)


http://nypost.com/2017/06/26/nets-dream-backcourt-duo-has-been-working-out-in-brooklyn/?utm_campaign=iosapp&utm_source=pasteboard_app

kshepinthehouse
06-26-2017, 09:43 PM
I'm stupefied.

Houston wants to get rid of Patrick Beverley...

Wow...

There must be something I am missing. Beverley is the ultimate 3-and-D player. He was 1st Team All-NBA Defensive Team this year... HE IS ONE OF THE 5 BEST DEFENDERS IN BASKETBALL!! He hits 3s at a very nice 37.5% rate over his career. He's 28 so he is in the middle of his prime. Of course, in today's NBA is seems everything is about cap space and contracts. Goodness knows there are a lot of wretched contracts around the league. So, what does his contract look like?

Beverly is due to make $5.5 mil in 2017-18. After that, there is a team option year at $5.0 million (yes, his contract actually goes down in the team option year?!?!?!). To call that a bargain is a massive understatement. I think there are folks who compute the value of players in the NBA and I bet Beverley is worth over $10 mil a season.

But Houston wants to deal him so they can clear another $5 mil in contract space. To be clear, this extra $5 mil won't get them to the max, where they could make a run at Gordon Hayward or Chris Paul or Blake Griffin or Paul Milsaps... it would probably just allow them to overspend on some other good, but not great free agent.

If I were the Minnesota GM, I would run to Houston to make a deal for Beverley. Add him to the TWolves and I think they instantly become a contender for a top 4 seed in the West.

-Jason "I just do not understand the NBA sometimes" Evans

If JR smith is worth 14 million surely Beverly is worth at least half that lol.

elvis14
06-26-2017, 09:48 PM
JJ rumors to the Nets today in the NY Post. Owns a penthouse in DUMBO (hot area in Bklyn for the non-NYers)


http://nypost.com/2017/06/26/nets-dream-backcourt-duo-has-been-working-out-in-brooklyn/?utm_campaign=iosapp&utm_source=pasteboard_app

I really hope that doesn't happen. Unless they over pay him, I seems odd to me that JJ would sign with the hapless Nets. He's the type of guy that could be the last piece to a playoff puzzle.

CDu
06-26-2017, 09:51 PM
I really hope that doesn't happen. Unless they over pay him, I seems odd to me that JJ would sign with the hapless Nets. He's the type of guy that could be the last piece to a playoff puzzle.

The problem is that he would have to take a substantial paycut to go to a contender. This is probably his last chance to sign a big contract. But contenders don't have cap space, and are not likely to overpay for a role player (which is what he would be on a contender).

Newton_14
06-26-2017, 10:08 PM
I'm stupefied.

Houston wants to get rid of Patrick Beverley...

Wow...

There must be something I am missing. Beverley is the ultimate 3-and-D player. He was 1st Team All-NBA Defensive Team this year... HE IS ONE OF THE 5 BEST DEFENDERS IN BASKETBALL!! He hits 3s at a very nice 37.5% rate over his career. He's 28 so he is in the middle of his prime. Of course, in today's NBA is seems everything is about cap space and contracts. Goodness knows there are a lot of wretched contracts around the league. So, what does his contract look like?

Beverly is due to make $5.5 mil in 2017-18. After that, there is a team option year at $5.0 million (yes, his contract actually goes down in the team option year?!?!?!). To call that a bargain is a massive understatement. I think there are folks who compute the value of players in the NBA and I bet Beverley is worth over $10 mil a season.

But Houston wants to deal him so they can clear another $5 mil in contract space. To be clear, this extra $5 mil won't get them to the max, where they could make a run at Gordon Hayward or Chris Paul or Blake Griffin or Paul Milsaps... it would probably just allow them to overspend on some other good, but not great free agent.

If I were the Minnesota GM, I would run to Houston to make a deal for Beverley. Add him to the TWolves and I think they instantly become a contender for a top 4 seed in the West.

-Jason "I just do not understand the NBA sometimes" Evans

Haven't you heard? The right thing for the teams with winning records, but not good enough to win titles to do is trade their best player for little to nothing in return, or get rid of one of their other top players for little to nothing. It's a really great strategy too. Everyone is doing it now. It's all the rage J-Dawg!

elvis14
06-26-2017, 11:39 PM
The problem is that he would have to take a substantial paycut to go to a contender. This is probably his last chance to sign a big contract. But contenders don't have cap space, and are not likely to overpay for a role player (which is what he would be on a contender).

I was afraid that was the case. If he can get one more big contract, a move to a contender will have to wait a couple of years.

JasonEvans
06-27-2017, 12:29 AM
I was afraid that was the case. If he can get one more big contract, a move to a contender will have to wait a couple of years.

It is easy to forget that JJ has never had a mega-payday in the NBA. Sure, he has made about $7 mil a year for the past several years, but he has never been in even the $10-15 mil kind of range where most starters on contenders tend to be.

His career earnings are $56 mil. I would not blame him for taking a big payday at this point... though it does probably mean he will never play in a conference finals. If he is content making $5 mil, then he can probably find a home on a contender. One team really interested in him is the 76ers, and they may have a fairly bright future in a couple seasons when the youngsters mature. That could be his best option. They could use a shooter around Simmons.

-Jason "I would love to see JJ on the Cavs... but no way to make that happen, I suspect" Evans

cato
06-27-2017, 12:57 AM
I would not blame him for taking a big payday at this point... though it does probably mean he will never play in a conference finals.

Didn't he play in the conference finals with Orlando? Or do you mean "play" as in "play a meaningful role," since that was before he fought his way into real minutes.

luburch
06-27-2017, 07:03 AM
He played in the finals with the Magic.

JJ is in a bit of a tough spot. He's talked on his podcast about this being has last big contract. Not a lot of contenders can give him big money. I've seen rumors of the Wolves and 76ers...neither fits his timeline for winning a ring.

Troublemaker
06-27-2017, 07:54 AM
Didn't he play in the conference finals with Orlando? Or do you mean "play" as in "play a meaningful role," since that was before he fought his way into real minutes.

JJ was in the rotation for 4 of the 5 Finals games against the Lakers (albeit as an 8th or 9th man), and he played a lot during the series in which Orlando eliminated the defending champs Boston (who were without Garnett). He usually did a great job guarding Ray Allen. 2008-9 Game Logs for JJ (http://www.espn.com/nba/player/gamelog/_/id/3024/year/2009/jj-redick). I'd say those minutes were meaningful enough.



It is easy to forget that JJ has never had a mega-payday in the NBA. Sure, he has made about $7 mil a year for the past several years, but he has never been in even the $10-15 mil kind of range where most starters on contenders tend to be.

His career earnings are $56 mil. I would not blame him for taking a big payday at this point...



JJ is in a bit of a tough spot. He's talked on his podcast about this being has last big contract. Not a lot of contenders can give him big money. I've seen rumors of the Wolves and 76ers...neither fits his timeline for winning a ring.

To me the choice is easy not tough. If the 76ers offer him something like 3 years - 45 million, he should take that considering, as Jason mentioned, his career earnings are "only" $56M. For a franchise to trust in JJ to mentor and provide spacing for their young studs is a great responsibility and an honor. AND they'll pay you $45 million to do it? That's the place to go.

What's the alternative? Beg the Warriors to put you on their roster at the vet minimum so you can ring-chase even though they're not going to play you during the playoffs because their system prefers switchable athletes. That's more fulfilling?

Or beg the Cavs to take you in at the mid-level exception to play Kyle Korver's role without knowing whether Lebron will leave after one season?

CDu
06-27-2017, 08:37 AM
JJ was in the rotation for 4 of the 5 Finals games against the Lakers (albeit as an 8th or 9th man), and he played a lot during the series in which Orlando eliminated the defending champs Boston (who were without Garnett). He usually did a great job guarding Ray Allen. 2008-9 Game Logs for JJ (http://www.espn.com/nba/player/gamelog/_/id/3024/year/2009/jj-redick). I'd say those minutes were meaningful enough.






To me the choice is easy not tough. If the 76ers offer him something like 3 years - 45 million, he should take that considering, as Jason mentioned, his career earnings are "only" $56M. For a franchise to trust in JJ to mentor and provide spacing for their young studs is a great responsibility and an honor. AND they'll pay you $45 million to do it? That's the place to go.

What's the alternative? Beg the Warriors to put you on their roster at the vet minimum so you can ring-chase even though they're not going to play you during the playoffs because their system prefers switchable athletes. That's more fulfilling?

Or beg the Cavs to take you in at the mid-level exception to play Kyle Korver's role without knowing whether Lebron will leave after one season?

Yeah, the 76ers and TWolves make sense as teams that will be semi-competitive/competitive now but could develop into a contender in the next few years and can offer him decent money.

JasonEvans
06-27-2017, 10:12 AM
Yeah, the 76ers and TWolves make sense as teams that will be semi-competitive/competitive now but could develop into a contender in the next few years and can offer him decent money.

There are other teams that could develop nicely too, but none of them have an immediate need for an outside shooter the way the TWolves and 76ers do. Of course, the TWolves only available spot in the lineup is at PG, because they just brought in one of the top few SGs in all of basketball in Butler. But, NBA teams have been getting pretty creative with positions -- they could maybe decide to move Butler to PG if they wanted to go after JJ's elite outside shooting.

Miami could be another possibility if they lose Dion Waiters to free agency. He was an excellent SG for them last season and will probably command $15 mil or so per season in the free agent market. But, he sounds like he wants to stay there and I am betting they would rather have him for $15 mil a season than JJ for the same price.

Milwaukee (Kris Middleton) and Denver (Gary Harris), both of whom seem to have promising futures, are set at SG.

Here is another possibility -- Memphis. They had Tony Allen and Vince Carter at SG last season, both of whom qualify for an AARP discount. They are both free agents so maybe the Grizz are looking for some SG help. Of course, while the Grizz are a playoff team in the West, it is sorta hard to see how that take the leap to be a contender.

-Jason "The more I think about it, the more I think the 76ers are the best fit in terms of moolah and maybe playing for a team on the rise" Evans

CDu
06-27-2017, 10:39 AM
There are other teams that could develop nicely too, but none of them have an immediate need for an outside shooter the way the TWolves and 76ers do. Of course, the TWolves only available spot in the lineup is at PG, because they just brought in one of the top few SGs in all of basketball in Butler. But, NBA teams have been getting pretty creative with positions -- they could maybe decide to move Butler to PG if they wanted to go after JJ's elite outside shooting.

Miami could be another possibility if they lose Dion Waiters to free agency. He was an excellent SG for them last season and will probably command $15 mil or so per season in the free agent market. But, he sounds like he wants to stay there and I am betting they would rather have him for $15 mil a season than JJ for the same price.

Milwaukee (Kris Middleton) and Denver (Gary Harris), both of whom seem to have promising futures, are set at SG.

Here is another possibility -- Memphis. They had Tony Allen and Vince Carter at SG last season, both of whom qualify for an AARP discount. They are both free agents so maybe the Grizz are looking for some SG help. Of course, while the Grizz are a playoff team in the West, it is sorta hard to see how that take the leap to be a contender.

-Jason "The more I think about it, the more I think the 76ers are the best fit in terms of moolah and maybe playing for a team on the rise" Evans

Yeah, the Grizz don't look appealing to me at all. They are old, with all of their key players on the back end of their careers. They are also glacial, which doesn't help in the "space and pace" era. They were barely a playoff team the last two years, and I don't see them getting better. I could see them missing the playoffs this year. And they don't have cap space as Gasol, Randolph, Parsons, and Conley all have big contracts.

Philly and Minnesota are MUCH better situations to go to. Philly has the obvious need of course. But Minnesota does too, and can certainly accommodate Redick with Butler playing PG and defending wherever. And Redick would play his more natural spot whenever Wiggins or Butler is sitting (the other of whom would play SF), which should be 20-25 mpg anyway. So it's not like Redick would be stuck as a de facto PG very much anyway.

superdave
06-27-2017, 05:56 PM
http://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/19751422/nba-free-agency-2017-latest-news-buzz-rumors

Interesting stuff in this NBA thread on Espn -

Melo is seeking a buyout with the Knicks who may try to re-sign Derrick Rose. What a franchise!

Igoudala will have no shortage of offers, which could be trouble for GSW.


http://nypost.com/2017/06/27/one-of-john-walls-teammates-wont-love-paul-george-recruitment/

John Wall is recruiting Paul George which may not help with Otto Porter. But a Wall, Beal, Porter, George, Gortat lineup would be awesome, right?

wsb3
06-27-2017, 06:12 PM
It is easy to forget that JJ has never had a mega-payday in the NBA. Sure, he has made about $7 mil a year for the past several years, but he has never been in even the $10-15 mil kind of range...

JJ is my top choice of any player I would love to see get a ring but this is a great post Jason. JJ has limited time & appears to be in position for his biggest contract ever. Can't fault him one bit.

I kind of hope it is the Sixers. They have accumulated some great young talent. His work ethic hopefully would rub off..

I really admire how hard JJ has worked to have a good long NBA career.

duke74
06-27-2017, 10:09 PM
http://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/19751422/nba-free-agency-2017-latest-news-buzz-rumors

Interesting stuff in this NBA thread on Espn -

Melo is seeking a buyout with the Knicks who may try to re-sign Derrick Rose. What a franchise!

Igoudala will have no shortage of offers, which could be trouble for GSW.


http://nypost.com/2017/06/27/one-of-john-walls-teammates-wont-love-paul-george-recruitment/

John Wall is recruiting Paul George which may not help with Otto Porter. But a Wall, Beal, Porter, George, Gortat lineup would be awesome, right?

Don't think it's happening. While MElo holds the no-trade clause trump card, Knicks want to at least try to get something back. Or can do the stretch provision for the cap space "asset."

I am more concerned with the Porzingis situation. He acted like a big baby by not meeting with Phil, and per the Knicks has not responded to calls or texts. Anyone in business pulling that crap would be looking for another job. Granted the Knicks are in chaos, but that's not the way to be professional.

After I posted the article on JJ and the Nets on FB, a client of mine (CFO) commented that perhaps I should switch to the Nets. (He's a big Nets fan) I said only if they put Dr. J back into the line-up.

cato
06-27-2017, 11:30 PM
I am more concerned with the Porzingis situation. He acted like a big baby by not meeting with Phil, and per the Knicks has not responded to calls or texts. Anyone in business pulling that crap would be looking for another job. Granted the Knicks are in chaos, but that's not the way to be professional.

Huh? Porzingis is in business. And he would have no problem finding a better job if his employer fired him.

Eternal Outlaw
06-27-2017, 11:40 PM
Don't think it's happening. While MElo holds the no-trade clause trump card, Knicks want to at least try to get something back. Or can do the stretch provision for the cap space "asset."

I am more concerned with the Porzingis situation. He acted like a big baby by not meeting with Phil, and per the Knicks has not responded to calls or texts. Anyone in business pulling that crap would be looking for another job. Granted the Knicks are in chaos, but that's not the way to be professional.

After I posted the article on JJ and the Nets on FB, a client of mine (CFO) commented that perhaps I should switch to the Nets. (He's a big Nets fan) I said only if they put Dr. J back into the line-up.

Not saying I agree with how Porzingis handled it but attitude reflects leadership and that's the type of attitude that gets bred under Phil. Not sure how business applies here, if this was normal business where employees aren't drafted, someone as skilled at their craft as Porzingis would get to have their pick of employer who would treat him and his fellow coworkers with respect. Phil is the ultimate big baby that trashes him employees to the media, often not directly by using Rosen. Even the recent trade talks are being looked at by many as a public spanking rather than actually want to trade him. If this was a normal business, any decent owner would have canned or re-trained a manager that treats his employees the way Phil does.

And that's really should be where the blame goes now. Dolan is trying so hard to not be the meddling owner that he's refusing to do anything and maybe even wants Knicks fans to beg for him to get more involved as a told you so that I wan't the problem.

duke74
06-28-2017, 01:29 AM
Huh? Porzingis is in business. And he would have no problem finding a better job if his employer fired him.

So you think his behavior was appropriate? I don't. Nor do any of the local (former pros) on the local media.

I understand his frustration. Phil is awful on so many levels. But you show respect and meet with your boss at season's end. And you certainly return phone calls.

moonpie23
06-28-2017, 07:52 AM
So you think his behavior was appropriate? I don't. Nor do any of the local (former pros) on the local media.

I understand his frustration. Phil is awful on so many levels. But you show respect and meet with your boss at season's end. And you certainly return phone calls.

up to a point...but when your boss is being a complete and utter jerk, making everyone mad, poisoning the company, and killing it's chances at getting better, you need to take a stand.

Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15
06-28-2017, 09:06 AM
Well, it seems that Phil is getting an early retirement.

ChillinDuke
06-28-2017, 09:37 AM
Well, it seems that Phil is getting an early retirement.

Initial reactions from locals are mixed. Most are happy that Phil is leaving, but if the cost is Carmelo staying then the tangible impact is questionable - insofar as on-the-court results are the be-all end-all.

- Chillin

CDu
06-28-2017, 09:44 AM
Initial reactions from locals are mixed. Most are happy that Phil is leaving, but if the cost is Carmelo staying then the tangible impact is questionable - insofar as on-the-court results are the be-all end-all.

- Chillin

I'm not sure I see how keeping Jackson and getting rid of Anthony (and to be clear, the only way that would realistically happen would be a very expensive buyout, as Anthony will veto most trades) is a desirable outcome for Knicks fans. Getting rid of Jackson is a great outcome.

Worst case, you are stuck with Anthony for 2 more years, but have a new GM. Best case, the next GM still works out a way to move Anthony that works for the team.

But getting rid of Anthony isn't going to make the team better in and of itself.

ChillinDuke
06-28-2017, 09:51 AM
I'm not sure I see how keeping Jackson and getting rid of Anthony (and to be clear, the only way that would realistically happen would be a very expensive buyout, as Anthony will veto most trades) is a desirable outcome for Knicks fans. Getting rid of Jackson is a great outcome.

Worst case, you are stuck with Anthony for 2 more years, but have a new GM. Best case, the next GM still works out a way to move Anthony that works for the team.

But getting rid of Anthony isn't going to make the team better in and of itself.

Not speaking for anyone but myself on this one, I think getting rid of Anthony is more about a cleansing than any in-and-of-itself net benefit.

Anthony is an anchor on a sinking ship. He's not helping anything and he's just prolonging the pain. I (and I think more loyal Knicks fans than I) want to just rip the bandaid at this point and move on.

- Chillin

flyingdutchdevil
06-28-2017, 10:04 AM
Not speaking for anyone but myself on this one, I think getting rid of Anthony is more about a cleansing than any in-and-of-itself net benefit.

Anthony is an anchor on a sinking ship. He's not helping anything and he's just prolonging the pain. I (and I think more loyal Knicks fans than I) want to just rip the bandaid at this point and move on.

- Chillin

Right, but the $20M per year the Knicks will pay Rose is going to make the Anthony situation look like the Seth Curry situation (ie a bargain).

The new Knicks GM better not pay for Rose. But he will.

CDu
06-28-2017, 10:26 AM
Right, but the $20M per year the Knicks will pay Rose is going to make the Anthony situation look like the Seth Curry situation (ie a bargain).

The new Knicks GM better not pay for Rose. But he will.

Yeah, at least Anthony is somewhat remotely worth the money he's making. Rose and Noah are much bigger problems relative to their salary.

Turk
06-28-2017, 11:11 AM
Today's obligatory link to the Ringer describes how "The Process" will always live on at the Sixers new practice facility:
https://theringer.com/sixers-sam-hinkie-process-graffiti-90df7643e8b1

However, this delightful story planted a seed of doubt. Mrs. Turk had the kitchen blown up at Stately Turk Manor a couple summers back. One day, I noticed one of the crew had a Carolina shirt on. Do I start pulling out appliances, cabinets, and fixtures looking for "Duke Sucks" written in sharpie?

cato
06-28-2017, 11:14 AM
So you think his behavior was appropriate? I don't. Nor do any of the local (former pros) on the local media.

I understand his frustration. Phil is awful on so many levels. But you show respect and meet with your boss at season's end. And you certainly return phone calls.

Kristap's move seems to have worked for the benefit of the Knicks.

Growing up in the NYC area, I learned as a child not to take the local media and their opinions too seriously.

ChillinDuke
06-28-2017, 11:23 AM
Right, but the $20M per year the Knicks will pay Rose is going to make the Anthony situation look like the Seth Curry situation (ie a bargain).

The new Knicks GM better not pay for Rose. But he will.


Yeah, at least Anthony is somewhat remotely worth the money he's making. Rose and Noah are much bigger problems relative to their salary.

Listen, I agree with both of you. But I don't think the point is who is relatively a better bargain than who else.

The issue is that the Knicks need to build this back up. And Anthony, Rose, Noah, they are all part of the problem: old, overpaid vets past their golden years. The Seth Curry's of the world are the players that the Knicks should be seeking out - not Derrick Rose. And Carmelo Anthony should just be bought out, IMO. We won 31 games last year, what's the point of keeping Anthony?

- Chillin

Troublemaker
06-28-2017, 11:35 AM
Hmmm, David Griffin is recently out of a job, and he's well-regarded around the league...

Troublemaker
06-28-2017, 11:38 AM
I'm stupefied.

Houston wants to get rid of Patrick Beverley...

Wow...

There must be something I am missing. Beverley is the ultimate 3-and-D player. He was 1st Team All-NBA Defensive Team this year... HE IS ONE OF THE 5 BEST DEFENDERS IN BASKETBALL!! He hits 3s at a very nice 37.5% rate over his career. He's 28 so he is in the middle of his prime. Of course, in today's NBA is seems everything is about cap space and contracts. Goodness knows there are a lot of wretched contracts around the league. So, what does his contract look like?

Beverly is due to make $5.5 mil in 2017-18. After that, there is a team option year at $5.0 million (yes, his contract actually goes down in the team option year?!?!?!). To call that a bargain is a massive understatement. I think there are folks who compute the value of players in the NBA and I bet Beverley is worth over $10 mil a season.

But Houston wants to deal him so they can clear another $5 mil in contract space. To be clear, this extra $5 mil won't get them to the max, where they could make a run at Gordon Hayward or Chris Paul or Blake Griffin or Paul Milsaps... it would probably just allow them to overspend on some other good, but not great free agent.

If I were the Minnesota GM, I would run to Houston to make a deal for Beverley. Add him to the TWolves and I think they instantly become a contender for a top 4 seed in the West.

-Jason "I just do not understand the NBA sometimes" Evans

Yeah, it's Chris Paul they're after (http://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/19754916/houston-rockets-emerge-serious-contenders-chris-paul-la-clippers) primarily. Let's see if Morey can pull it off.

CDu
06-28-2017, 11:42 AM
Yeah, it's Chris Paul they're after (http://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/19754916/houston-rockets-emerge-serious-contenders-chris-paul-la-clippers). Let's see if Morey can pull it off.

I'll give Morey credit: the guy goes after it. As a Bulls fan, it is frustrating watching our GM do nothing and try to justify it for years, then when they occasionally make a move, they trade assets for pennies on the dollar and talk about working to have flexibility.

Morey is constantly making moves. Sometimes they work out great, sometimes they don't. But he is never handcuffed by his decisions and is more than willing to try to rectify mistakes.

I don't know if he'll be able to pull of getting Chris Paul. And to be honest, it wouldn't put the Rockets in competition with the Warriors anyway. But it'll be fun to see if he can get it done.

EDIT: and apparently Paul just negotiated a sign-and-trade with LA to go to Houston.

flyingdutchdevil
06-28-2017, 11:47 AM
I'll give Morey credit: the guy goes after it. As a Bulls fan, it is frustrating watching our GM do nothing and try to justify it for years, then when they occasionally make a move, they trade assets for pennies on the dollar and talk about working to have flexibility.

Morey is constantly making moves. Sometimes they work out great, sometimes they don't. But he is never handcuffed by his decisions and is more than willing to try to rectify mistakes.

I don't know if he'll be able to pull of getting Chris Paul. And to be honest, it wouldn't put the Rockets in competition with the Warriors anyway. But it'll be fun to see if he can get it done.

Morey's appetite for risk is impressive. However, Chris Paul is not risky. There are very few players who are risky in the league (Lebron and KD come to mind) who can join a team and instantly make them better. Paul is one of those players. The only thing stopping Paul from succeeding is health.

I would love this move, despite not liking Harden. But, in terms of support, I'll take the Harden over the Dubs any day. Hell, I'll rally around a 6-day old sandwich over the Dubs.

CDu
06-28-2017, 11:48 AM
Morey's appetite for risk is impressive. However, Chris Paul is not risky. There are very few players who are risky in the league (Lebron and KD come to mind) who can join a team and instantly make them better. Paul is one of those players. The only thing stopping Paul from succeeding is health.

I would love this move, despite not liking Harden. But, in terms of support, I'll take the Harden over the Dubs any day. Hell, I'll rally around a 6-day old sandwich over the Dubs.

It's happening:
https://twitter.com/WojVerticalNBA?ref_src=twsrc%5Egoogle%7Ctwcamp%5Es erp%7Ctwgr%5Eauthor

flyingdutchdevil
06-28-2017, 11:51 AM
It's happening:
https://twitter.com/WojVerticalNBA?ref_src=twsrc%5Egoogle%7Ctwcamp%5Es erp%7Ctwgr%5Eauthor

Yeah. For Dekker, Beverly, and Williams plus a draft pick or two. Massive steal for the Rockets, who retain Anderson, Ariza, and Gordon. Holy cow.

FYI, the Clippers are now filled with a ton of sixth men: Rivers, Crawford, and Williams. 3 dudes best playing off the bench. Lol...

CDu
06-28-2017, 11:53 AM
Yeah. For Dekker, Beverly, and Williams plus a draft pick or two. Massive steal for the Rockets, who retain Anderson, Ariza, and Gordon. Holy cow.

FYI, the Clippers are now filled with a ton of sixth men: Rivers, Crawford, and Williams. 3 dudes best playing off the bench. Lol...

Yeah, the Clippers were stuck in a bad place. Paul convinced them he was going to walk this summer (and sign with Houston) if they didn't trade him. So they had just a couple of days to make a deal to get anything back.

I would expect a similar move to be made by the Clippers with Griffin in the near future. The dynamics of the also-rans in the West are changing quickly.

flyingdutchdevil
06-28-2017, 11:55 AM
Yeah, the Clippers were stuck in a bad place. Paul convinced them he was going to walk this summer (and sign with Houston) if they didn't trade him. So they had just a couple of days to make a deal to get anything back.

I would expect a similar move to be made by the Clippers with Griffin in the near future. The dynamics of the also-rans in the West are changing quickly.

And DeAndre. Just blow up the team. Get first round picks. Pull a TWolves and just start afresh. Trade Griffin and DeAndre to the Celts for all of their first round picks for the next 2 years?

CDu
06-28-2017, 11:59 AM
And DeAndre. Just blow up the team. Get first round picks. Pull a TWolves and just start afresh. Trade Griffin and DeAndre to the Celts for all of their first round picks for the next 2 years?

Well, I don't think the Celtics would want them both. Jordan would make sense though. But that would probably hurt their chances of getting Hayward (they are already short on cap space as is). Is Jordan or Griffin more valuable than Hayward for their long-term plan?

NSDukeFan
06-28-2017, 12:03 PM
Yeah. For Dekker, Beverly, and Williams plus a draft pick or two. Massive steal for the Rockets, who retain Anderson, Ariza, and Gordon. Holy cow.

FYI, the Clippers are now filled with a ton of sixth men: Rivers, Crawford, and Williams. 3 dudes best playing off the bench. Lol...

If this was baseball, the Clippers would be set in the bullpen for the 7th, 8th and 9th innings. They would need some starters though.

flyingdutchdevil
06-28-2017, 12:06 PM
Well, I don't think the Celtics would want them both. Jordan would make sense though. But that would probably hurt their chances of getting Hayward (they are already short on cap space as is). Is Jordan or Griffin more valuable than Hayward for their long-term plan?

Good question. I like Hayward, but I think Tatum can turn into a Hayward in a few years (excellent on O, mediocre on D, amazing teammate and lovable guy). The Celts are set at the 2 (Avery, Smart), the 3 (Crowder, Brown, Tatum), and one the 4/5 (Horford) for the next few years. I like Thomas, but he's not a max player and doesn't make the Celts better. My opinion? Get Griffin and DeAndre, trade Horford for a really good 2-way PG (like George Hill), and work with that team.

You have 3 of the top 15 defensive players in the country on one team (Bradley, Crowder, DeAndre) and some really nice offensive pieces (Tatum, Griffin, Hill, Thomas). Your cap? Yeah, that's an issue.

nmduke2001
06-28-2017, 12:33 PM
I donít understand why Houston would want Chris Paul. I know this sounds strange, but despite his passing skills, Chris Paul really is a ball dominate guard. James Harden just came off an incredible season being a ball dominate guard. Now you have two ball dominate guards. Isnít Patrick Beverly a great option for a team with James Harden? Beverly plays solid D and makes open jump shots. Harden with the ball less isnít the right option in my mind.

flyingdutchdevil
06-28-2017, 12:38 PM
I donít understand why Houston would want Chris Paul. I know this sounds strange, but despite his passing skills, Chris Paul really is a ball dominate guard. James Harden just came off an incredible season being a ball dominate guard. Now you have two ball dominate guards. Isnít Patrick Beverly a great option for a team with James Harden? Beverly plays solid D and makes open jump shots. Harden with the ball less isnít the right option in my mind.

Chris Paul makes everyone better, and he has an elite 3pt shot. Plus he's an amazing defender. The only thing he does subpar is iso plays, and that's where Harden may be top 3 in the NBA.

By giving the ball to Paul, you cut down on Harden's TOs (5.4 per game), over-reliance on Harden's isos, and players just standing around waiting for Harden to shoot. Paul is a rare player who makes EVERYONE better. Insanely good trade for the Rockets. They aren't the Dubs, but I think they are now better than the Spurs.

nmduke2001
06-28-2017, 12:47 PM
Chris Paul makes everyone better, and he has an elite 3pt shot. Plus he's an amazing defender. The only thing he does subpar is iso plays, and that's where Harden may be top 3 in the NBA.

By giving the ball to Paul, you cut down on Harden's TOs (5.4 per game), over-reliance on Harden's isos, and players just standing around waiting for Harden to shoot. Paul is a rare player who makes EVERYONE better. Insanely good trade for the Rockets. They aren't the Dubs, but I think they are now better than the Spurs.

I couldn't disagree more. Chris Paul is a 5'-11" 32-year old PG. When is the last time that combination aged well? So now instead of Harden creating, you'll have him standing around waiting for a pass from Paul?

duke74
06-28-2017, 12:50 PM
up to a point...but when your boss is being a complete and utter dickehead, making everyone mad, poisoning the company, and killing it's chances at getting better, you need to take a stand.

Not his place...he's a hired employee. Be the better man. Meet with the guy and discuss the situation and your feelings. Then go to the owner if not satisfied. Sorry, but I disagree with you.

I've worked for those types you describe (in somewhat hyperbolic terms) - I would never have blown off meetings and shut down communications.

But all moot. Diaper being changed on Zinger and Phil is now rightfully out.

flyingdutchdevil
06-28-2017, 12:54 PM
I couldn't disagree more. Chris Paul is a 5'-11" 32-year old PG. When is the last time that combination aged well? So now instead of Harden creating, you'll have him standing around waiting for a pass from Paul?

That 5'11" 32-year old PG just averaged 18+ points, 9+ assists, and 5 rebounds for a PER of 26.25. And John Stockton aged pretty damn well. Chris Paul isn't overly athletic nor does he need to be; he will age pretty well.

Amazing trade for the Rockets.

duke74
06-28-2017, 12:58 PM
Initial reactions from locals are mixed. Most are happy that Phil is leaving, but if the cost is Carmelo staying then the tangible impact is questionable - insofar as on-the-court results are the be-all end-all.

- Chillin

I'd go so far as saying ALL are happy. Carmelo would be staying either way, I think, given the no-trade clause and the Knicks' refusal to buy out the contract.

Perhaps with the triangle in a geometry cemetery, Hornacek can make better use of MElo's current skillset - iso ... then chuck up a shot with 2 seconds left... or pass it to our 7'3' perimeter player who stagnated last year when he actually was on the court.

Geesh.

cato
06-28-2017, 01:08 PM
Not his place...he's a hired employee. Be the better man. Meet with the guy and discuss the situation and your feelings. Then go to the owner if not satisfied. Sorry, but I disagree with you.

I've worked for those types you describe (in somewhat hyperbolic terms) - I would never have blown off meetings and shut down communications.

But all moot. Diaper being changed on Zinger and Phil is now rightfully out.

His place? Kind of you to opine on that.

Athletes have a very short career. I completely understand if they do not want to sit by and watch their future toyed with by old men who cannot adapt to reality.

Big Chief Triangle and his boss are the ones who deserve scorn here. What competent manager trashes his employees in the press. I must have missed that piece of advice along the way.

nmduke2001
06-28-2017, 01:15 PM
That 5'11" 32-year old PG just averaged 18+ points, 9+ assists, and 5 rebounds for a PER of 26.25. And John Stockton aged pretty damn well. Chris Paul isn't overly athletic nor does he need to be; he will age pretty well.

Amazing trade for the Rockets.

We'll have to agree to disagree and check back next year to see who was right. I'm sticking with my thought that they don't fit well together. I'm guessing CP will continue to be the guy that hasn't won a conference final. CP will NOT age well and this contract will drag on Houston and ruin Harden's prime years. Not that it really matters, no one is challenging GS for a few more years anyway.

Billy Dat
06-28-2017, 01:45 PM
Big Chief Triangle and his boss are the ones who deserve scorn here. What competent manager trashes his employees in the press. I must have missed that piece of advice along the way.

Amen. Aside from a mostly excellent draft record, Phil was a disaster. KP's rebellion got us to today so THANK GOD he skipped his exit interview.

Now, we see who Dolan hires. The only thing that gives me any hope is that he mostly stays out of the Rangers affairs and lets Glen Sather operate. Naturally, this should have happened before the draft because we probably would have chosen differently, but I hope Frankie Smokes works out.

As for Melo, it's a mixed bag. His primary deficiency is ball hogging and not getting KP involved at the end of tight games. But, he seems like a good locker room guy and spiritual leader/mentor to the young pups. He can still fill it up so I am inclined to keep him rather than buy him out. Hopefully Hornacek will have the freedom to design an offense to fit the skills of his players and PLEASE can we send Rambis packing?

As for CP3 and the Rockets, Morey has a habit of ignoring chemistry/fit as he collects talent. I don't think CP3 and Harden and a good match, and CP3 is known as a real jerk to his teammates. Don't get me wrong, the guy is great, but that roster doesn't seem like a good fit to me. I guess we'll see.

ChillinDuke
06-28-2017, 01:47 PM
That 5'11" 32-year old PG just averaged 18+ points, 9+ assists, and 5 rebounds for a PER of 26.25. And John Stockton aged pretty damn well. Chris Paul isn't overly athletic nor does he need to be; he will age pretty well.

Amazing trade for the Rockets.

Agree with FDD here. Paul is fantastic.

Gary Payton also played pretty well at age 32 (23.1 ppg, 8.1 apg, 4.6 rpg, 1.6 spg). Payton continued to put up 20/8/4/1 for 2 more years across 3 different teams. And then went better than 14/5/4/1 in his age 35 season which was good for the 3rd leading scorer and top assist man on a Lakers team that featured ball-dominant Kobe and Shaq (and 40-year-old Karl Malone).

Paul easily has 3 years left in the tank to be a top-flight PG.

- Chillin

Billy Dat
06-28-2017, 01:55 PM
@CVivlamoreAJC (AJC reporter)
The Hawks are nearing a deal to trade Ryan Kelly to the Rockets for cash considerations. Could be completed today.

Truth&Justise
06-28-2017, 02:17 PM
@CVivlamoreAJC (AJC reporter)
The Hawks are nearing a deal to trade Ryan Kelly to the Rockets for cash considerations. Could be completed today.

I guess Kelly replaces Sam Dekker? Do they intend to keep him?

phaedrus
06-28-2017, 02:23 PM
By giving the ball to Paul, you cut down on Harden's TOs (5.4 per game), over-reliance on Harden's isos, and players just standing around waiting for Harden to shoot. Paul is a rare player who makes EVERYONE better. Insanely good trade for the Rockets. They aren't the Dubs, but I think they are now better than the Spurs.

Too bad. I was looking forward to seeing how many seasons in a row Harden could set a new all-time turnover record.

SCMatt33
06-28-2017, 02:31 PM
I guess Kelly replaces Sam Dekker? Do they intend to keep him?

No. At least as reported, the existing Paul trade doesn't meet salary matching so the Rockets are buying players to add to the deal. Kelly is very likely to be flipped to he Clippers. Furthermore, most of the players the rockets are getting (including Kelly) have little if any guaranteed money, so there's a good chance he ends up as a free agent very soon, although it's possible with such heavy roster changes that the Clippers hold on to some of them through camp at least

duke79
06-28-2017, 02:35 PM
Amen. Aside from a mostly excellent draft record, Phil was a disaster. KP's rebellion got us to today so THANK GOD he skipped his exit interview.

Now, we see who Dolan hires. The only thing that gives me any hope is that he mostly stays out of the Rangers affairs and lets Glen Sather operate. Naturally, this should have happened before the draft because we probably would have chosen differently, but I hope Frankie Smokes works out.

As for Melo, it's a mixed bag. His primary deficiency is ball hogging and not getting KP involved at the end of tight games. But, he seems like a good locker room guy and spiritual leader/mentor to the young pups. He can still fill it up so I am inclined to keep him rather than buy him out. Hopefully Hornacek will have the freedom to design an offense to fit the skills of his players and PLEASE can we send Rambis packing?

As for CP3 and the Rockets, Morey has a habit of ignoring chemistry/fit as he collects talent. I don't think CP3 and Harden and a good match, and CP3 is known as a real jerk to his teammates. Don't get me wrong, the guy is great, but that roster doesn't seem like a good fit to me. I guess we'll see.

The firing of Phil Jackson (and the open job) makes me wonder if Danny Ferry is blackballed from any high-level NBA job?

BD80
06-28-2017, 02:52 PM
The firing of Phil Jackson (and the open job) makes me wonder if Danny Ferry is blackballed from any high-level NBA job?

Ironic choice of terminology

Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15
06-28-2017, 02:57 PM
Ironic choice of terminology

He has a little GM in him

kAzE
06-28-2017, 03:08 PM
I don’t understand why Houston would want Chris Paul. I know this sounds strange, but despite his passing skills, Chris Paul really is a ball dominate guard. James Harden just came off an incredible season being a ball dominate guard. Now you have two ball dominate guards. Isn’t Patrick Beverly a great option for a team with James Harden? Beverly plays solid D and makes open jump shots. Harden with the ball less isn’t the right option in my mind.

I think it helps them. Not enough to beat the Warriors, but it helps them. People who see Harden's assist numbers and assume he's a great PG aren't real basketball analysts. He's just the PG on Mike D'Antoni's team.

Harden led the league in turnovers, with 5.7 a game. Westbrook was 2nd, with 5.4. Harden's A/TO ratio was 1.95, which isn't even top 50. His A/TO was 1.58 in the playoffs. Good teams know how to stop the Rockets, just stop Harden. It's such a predictable offense. He's a dominant scorer, but a mediocre point guard.

Chris Paul is the best point guard of this generation, and he will run the team. Harden will get his points and be more efficient with Paul running the team. Paul makes everyone better.

Troublemaker
06-28-2017, 03:11 PM
To anyone questioning that this is a good trade/signing from Houston's perspective, consider the market. These are the top 10 free agents this summer according to the analytical (and very prolific) Kevin Pelton of espn:

1. Curry
2. Durant
3. Paul
4. Lowry
5. Millsap
6. Hayward
7. Griffin
8. Otto Porter
9. Gallinari
10. Jeff Teague

Curry and Durant are not really available and will resign with GSW. So, what Morey did was sign the best player available on the free agent market while starting off with little cap room. That's really good!

I won't say it's a great signing/trade necessarily because Paul is 32 and Houston's going to hate his salary in his age 35, 36, and 37 seasons in which he'll be paid $40 million with the contract that he's likely to sign (a 5-year super max extension next summer). But this is all about James Harden being 27, in his prime, and now he'll have a co-star for the next 3 seasons in the form of Chris Paul's age 32, 33, and 34 seasons. I do think Paul will be in slow instead of accelerated decline.

This was about as good as they could do. I'm not worried about the fit since they can both shoot and therefore play off the ball when the other is creating. Yes, they'll have to share creation duties, but I think that's a feature, not a bug. Next season in the playoffs, if the Spurs put Kawhi on Harden and focus in on stopping him, the Rockets will have Chris Paul to go to.

CDu
06-28-2017, 03:14 PM
I think it helps them. Not enough to beat the Warriors, but it helps them. People who see Harden's assist numbers and assume he's a great PG aren't real basketball analysts. He's just the PG on Mike D'Antoni's team.

Harden led the league in turnovers, with 5.7 a game. Westbrook was 2nd, with 5.4. Harden's A/TO ratio was 1.95, which isn't even top 50. His A/TO was 1.58 in the playoffs. Teams know how to stop the Rockets, just stop Harden. It's such a predictable offense. He's a dominant scorer, but a mediocre point guard.

Chris Paul is the best point guard of this generation, and he will run the team. Harden will get his points and be more efficient with Paul running the team. Paul makes everyone better.

Yeah, remember how amazing Steve Nash was with D'Antoni in Phoenix? Well, Paul is arguably a better player than Nash, and Harden is better than anyone D'Antoni has had as a #2.

We have seen two high-volume ballhandlers co-exist before in LeBron and Kyrie and LeBron and Wade before that. Well, Harden is better off ball than Irving or Wade, and Paul is a better passer than Irving or Wade.

And just as importantly, Paul and Wade will share the court for only around half the game. What this does is allow D'Antoni to have Harden run the second unit when Paul sits and to rarely ever have to settle for a second-tier shotcreator/playmaker on the floor.

JasonEvans
06-28-2017, 03:16 PM
Part of the calculus in this trade -- for both Paul and the Rockets -- is that it could be a short-term rental. Paul opted in to the final year of his deal ($24.4 mil) rather than becoming a free agent. So, he becomes a free agent after next season. If things work out in Houston and Paul/Harden are a good fit, Paul signs with Houston for the super max (more than $200 mil over 5 seasons) and everyone is happy (for now, by the time that super max deal is in its final couple seasons and Paul is in his mid-30s, it will be an albatross of a contract). If, things don't work out then Paul goes elsewhere (probably for $130 mil over 4 years).

-Jason "I have no idea how the Rockets pull off the deal for Paul George. Where do they find the cap space?" Evans

JasonEvans
06-28-2017, 03:21 PM
No. At least as reported, the existing Paul trade doesn't meet salary matching so the Rockets are buying players to add to the deal. Kelly is very likely to be flipped to he Clippers. Furthermore, most of the players the rockets are getting (including Kelly) have little if any guaranteed money, so there's a good chance he ends up as a free agent very soon, although it's possible with such heavy roster changes that the Clippers hold on to some of them through camp at least

Here is a cool explanation (https://www.sbnation.com/nba/2017/6/28/15886854/chris-paul-houston-rockets-trade-no-cap-space-nba-free-agency)for how the Rockets made this deal work under the cap.


Paul is slated to make $24.2 million next season by virtue of opting in, plus he has a 15 percent trade kicker that would bump his salary up more. The combined salaries of Williams, Beverley, and Dekker add up to $14.3 million, which isn’t enough to complete the trade by NBA rules.

To solve that problem, the Rockets have canvassed the league for non-guaranteed minimum contracts that can be included to make the money work. They have two on their roster already in Kyle Wiltjer and Isaiah Taylor, and they’ve reportedly acquired DeAndre Liggins from the Mavericks, Tim Quarterman from the Blazers, and Ryan Kelly from the Hawks for cash considerations. Houston also has two guaranteed minimum-salary players they can include in the deal in Montrezl Harrell and Chinanu Onuaku. Harrell is indeed in the deal, according to Brad Turner of the Los Angeles Times.

Some combination of those seven players together should be enough to reach 75 percent of Paul’s incoming salary, which is the necessary threshold for over-the-cap teams to complete trades.

So, this appears to quite literally be something like a 9-for-1 deal... wow!" Evans

CDu
06-28-2017, 03:27 PM
Part of the calculus in this trade -- for both Paul and the Rockets -- is that it could be a short-term rental. Paul opted in to the final year of his deal ($24.4 mil) rather than becoming a free agent. So, he becomes a free agent after next season. If things work out in Houston and Paul/Harden are a good fit, Paul signs with Houston for the super max (more than $200 mil over 5 seasons) and everyone is happy (for now, by the time that super max deal is in its final couple seasons and Paul is in his mid-30s, it will be an albatross of a contract). If, things don't work out then Paul goes elsewhere (probably for $130 mil over 4 years).

-Jason "I have no idea how the Rockets pull off the deal for Paul George. Where do they find the cap space?" Evans

Cap space isn't the challenge to get George. They can find takers for Anderson or Ariza and others to clear enough space to absorb George's contract in a trade. What they lack are the assets needed to get him from Indiana. The Lakers and Boston can both easily out-do Houston in assets. Heck, even Love is a better return than what Houston could send.

I won't rule anything out with Morey, but realistically their hope would have to be to present an appealing option for George as a free agent next summer. At that point they would just need to move one piece to have the cap space.

Just a technical note, but Paul won't qualify for the super max if/once he is traded.

JasonEvans
06-28-2017, 03:57 PM
Cap space isn't the challenge to get George. They can find takers for Anderson or Ariza and others to clear enough space to absorb George's contract in a trade. What they lack are the assets needed to get him from Indiana. The Lakers and Boston can both easily out-do Houston in assets. Heck, even Love is a better return than what Houston could send.

I agree about the desirable assets, but I'm not so sure they will be able to move Anderson's contract. He's due $60 mil over the next 3 seasons, a big number for a stretch 4 who does not rebound or play D. I'm hard pressed to think of a GM looking to make their team better (less than half the league is looking to get better, everyone else is looking to get worse and get draft picks while clearing cap space) who would think Anderson and his $20 mil/season deal are the way to do that. Ariza's $7.4 mil for 1 season can be moved... but Anderson's $60 mil is a lot tougher.


Just a technical note, but Paul won't qualify for the super max if/once he is traded.

He won't? What am I missing about the qualifications? I did not think being traded was one of the ways to undo the Super Max? Paul did fail to make the 3 All-NBA teams this year, which (I think) would make him ineligible for the Super Max next season if he did not make one.

-Jason "the Super Max is a nice idea, but I'm not sure anyone will sign one any time soon because the big stars are keen to keep their team out of salary cap hell" Evans

kAzE
06-28-2017, 04:02 PM
Just a technical note, but Paul won't qualify for the super max if/once he is traded.

Quote from the ESPN article (http://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/19758509/la-clippers-trade-chris-paul-houston-rockets): "Because he is being acquired in a trade, Paul will be eligible for a five-year deal worth an estimated $205 million from the Rockets after this season."

$41 mil a year is definitely the "super max." Sounds like the incumbent team can do it as long they don't acquire the player through free agency.

A-Tex Devil
06-28-2017, 04:20 PM
To anyone questioning that this is a good trade/signing from Houston's perspective, consider the market. These are the top 10 free agents this summer according to the analytical (and very prolific) Kevin Pelton of espn:

1. Curry
2. Durant
3. Paul
4. Lowry
5. Millsap
6. Hayward
7. Griffin
8. Otto Porter
9. Gallinari
10. Jeff Teague

Curry and Durant are not really available and will resign with GSW. So, what Morey did was sign the best player available on the free agent market while starting off with little cap room. That's really good!

I won't say it's a great signing/trade necessarily because Paul is 32 and Houston's going to hate his salary in his age 35, 36, and 37 seasons in which he'll be paid $40 million with the contract that he's likely to sign (a 5-year super max extension next summer). But this is all about James Harden being 27, in his prime, and now he'll have a co-star for the next 3 seasons in the form of Chris Paul's age 32, 33, and 34 seasons. I do think Paul will be in slow instead of accelerated decline.

This was about as good as they could do. I'm not worried about the fit since they can both shoot and therefore play off the ball when the other is creating. Yes, they'll have to share creation duties, but I think that's a feature, not a bug. Next season in the playoffs, if the Spurs put Kawhi on Harden and focus in on stopping him, the Rockets will have Chris Paul to go to.

One or more of the bolded players or 'Melo or Paul George [edit to ad 'Melo] will end up on the Rockets before the end of July. Mark my words. Morey isn't done. It will take some scheming with multiple teams. But look what he is doing today (with the encouragement of his owner). He didn't have enough to match salaries with Paul, so instead of giving up other assets (Anderson, Capela, Gordon) he just went out and bought a bunch of less than 12th men to make it work.

Between all of this, the Osweiler salary dump in the NFL, and the Astros redefining the MLB rebuild, Houston teams have made the offseason rather interesting in all of the sports.

CDu
06-28-2017, 04:23 PM
He won't? What am I missing about the qualifications? I did not think being traded was one of the ways to undo the Super Max? Paul did fail to make the 3 All-NBA teams this year, which (I think) would make him ineligible for the Super Max next season if he did not make one.

-Jason "the Super Max is a nice idea, but I'm not sure anyone will sign one any time soon because the big stars are keen to keep their team out of salary cap hell" Evans


Quote from the ESPN article (http://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/19758509/la-clippers-trade-chris-paul-houston-rockets): "Because he is being acquired in a trade, Paul will be eligible for a five-year deal worth an estimated $205 million from the Rockets after this season."

$41 mil a year is definitely the "super max." Sounds like the incumbent team can do it as long they don't acquire the player through free agency.

The "super max contract" (the slang for the designated player exception) is available for players as follows:
- must have won an All-NBA honor; and
- must be with his original team OR on a team that traded for him during his rookie contract

That's why Jimmy Butler will now no longer be eligible for the super max in two years. If he'd still been with the Bulls, he could get the super max. He got traded during his second contract, so he can't get it.

The article writer doesn't quite understand the rules. Paul actually doesn't qualify for the DPE regardless of whether or not he stayed with the Clippers. He was not a Clipper originally (so he wouldn't qualify if he stayed), and is well past his rookie contract (so he won't qualify via the trade). What Paul is eligible for is the standard max contract for a player with 10+ years of experience (35% of the cap). The trade (or no trade) has no impact on his max salary eligibility.

As I said, it is a technical point, since I believe that the DPE value is the same as the max contract for a 10+ year player. But Paul doesn't qualify in any way for the "super max". He will qualify for the 10+ year player max.

CDu
06-28-2017, 04:42 PM
Just to clarify, as I incorrectly my have bashed the article.

The standard max contract is subject to trade rules. Paul would not be able to sign the max as a free agent going from LA to Houston. He would be able to sign to a lower max as a true free agent. But he WILL be able to sign a standard max contract (via Bird's rights) next year because he was traded.

The "super max" applies to a very select group of players: those players entering their second or third contract (before their 10th year) that meet the criteria mentioned (all NBA and on their original team or traded on their rookie deal). It allows them to skip over the standard max contract for a player of their service time.

Paul is beyond the service time for which that would matter, so the standard max is what he is looking at.

The article doesn't actually talk about the super max (that was inferred by a previous poster), so the writer was correct.

Billy Dat
06-28-2017, 04:48 PM
There's some embarrassing stories leaking about Doc the GM doing what was best for Doc the Dad not Doc the Coach.

http://deadspin.com/report-chris-paul-hated-austin-and-doc-rivers-1796493696

FWIW, Austin transformed himself from a punchline to a solid second unit player over the past few years, and odds are that may not have happened had his Dad not been his coach and given him the chance.

Blue in the Face
06-28-2017, 05:05 PM
To solve that problem, the Rockets have canvassed the league for non-guaranteed minimum contracts that can be included to make the money work. They have two on their roster already in Kyle Wiltjer and Isaiah Taylor, and theyíve reportedly acquired DeAndre Liggins from the Mavericks, Tim Quarterman from the Blazers, and Ryan Kelly from the Hawks for cash considerations.
I know Chris Paul is dominating the talk of this trade, but the Blazers are pretty fired up about their side of things too (https://twitter.com/trailblazers/status/880133241813876736).

http://i.imgur.com/RQSHmkm.png


http://i.imgur.com/SB0poSy.png

Olympic Fan
06-28-2017, 05:09 PM
There's some embarrassing stories leaking about Doc the GM doing what was best for Doc the Dad not Doc the Coach.

http://deadspin.com/report-chris-paul-hated-austin-and-doc-rivers-1796493696

FWIW, Austin transformed himself from a punchline to a solid second unit player over the past few years, and odds are that may not have happened had his Dad not been his coach and given him the chance.

Interesting note: One ex-Duke player got votes for the NBA all-defensive team this year. Want to guess who that was?

kAzE
06-28-2017, 05:42 PM
Just to clarify, as I incorrectly my have bashed the article.

The standard max contract is subject to trade rules. Paul would not be able to sign the max as a free agent going from LA to Houston. He would be able to sign to a lower max as a true free agent. But he WILL be able to sign a standard max contract (via Bird's rights) next year because he was traded.

The "super max" applies to a very select group of players: those players entering their second or third contract (before their 10th year) that meet the criteria mentioned (all NBA and on their original team or traded on their rookie deal). It allows them to skip over the standard max contract for a player of their service time.

Paul is beyond the service time for which that would matter, so the standard max is what he is looking at.

The article doesn't actually talk about the super max (that was inferred by a previous poster), so the writer was correct.

My bad . . . I saw $41 million a year and assumed that had to a be a super max deal. I was not aware that the "super max" was a very specific type of contract for which you had to meet so many criteria to become eligible. But if he were a player eligible for the super max, it would still be for around the same amount as this reported deal, right? The way you're describing it seems to me like the "super max" is just a way to get the 10 year veteran max without needing to have been in the league for 10 years.

So in other words, the super max is only more than the standard max if the player has less than 10 years of service, right?

mph
06-28-2017, 06:40 PM
Interesting note: One ex-Duke player got votes for the NBA all-defensive team this year. Want to guess who that was?

Does that mean Doc Rivers is coach, GM, and a sportswriter with an all-NBA vote????

I kid. Nothing but love for Austin.

BD80
06-28-2017, 06:58 PM
There's some embarrassing stories leaking about Doc the GM doing what was best for Doc the Dad not Doc the Coach.

http://deadspin.com/report-chris-paul-hated-austin-and-doc-rivers-1796493696

FWIW, Austin transformed himself from a punchline to a solid second unit player over the past few years, and odds are that may not have happened had his Dad not been his coach and given him the chance.

"If Austin Rivers cost his team both Carmelo Anthony and Chris Paul, then he has already cemented himself as an all-time NBA heel."

A heel? Really? What a low blow!

But I guess that is just about the most despicable thing in the English language.

CDu
06-28-2017, 08:33 PM
My bad . . . I saw $41 million a year and assumed that had to a be a super max deal. I was not aware that the "super max" was a very specific type of contract for which you had to meet so many criteria to become eligible. But if he were a player eligible for the super max, it would still be for around the same amount as this reported deal, right? The way you're describing it seems to me like the "super max" is just a way to get the 10 year veteran max without needing to have been in the league for 10 years.

So in other words, the super max is only more than the standard max if the player has less than 10 years of service, right?

Exactly. It is purely a terminology difference. The "super max" is just a mechanism of the new CBA that allows the bumping up of a younger player to the true max salary, which a sub-10 year guy couldn't otherwise get. Same dollar amount, just different terminology.

BigZ
06-28-2017, 10:55 PM
Chris Paul is the most overrated PG of all time. I'd say he was the most overrated player but Melo gets that award.

BigZ
06-28-2017, 10:58 PM
Harden and Paul will do what they all ways do choke in the playoffs

Ichabod Drain
06-28-2017, 11:00 PM
Chris Paul is the most overrated PG of all time. I'd say he was the most overrated player but Melo gets that award.

At this point right now I feel Chris Paul is somewhat underrated.

BigZ
06-28-2017, 11:09 PM
DeAndre Jordan is getting what deserves for screwing over Dallas

nmduke2001
06-28-2017, 11:26 PM
Fivethirtyeight tackles if CP and Harden can play together.
http://fivethirtyeight.com/features/can-chris-paul-and-james-harden-play-together/?addata=espn:frontpage

Edouble
06-29-2017, 08:20 AM
Harden and Paul will do what they all ways do choke in the playoffs

always


DeAndre Jordan is getting what deserves for screwing over Dallas

what he deserves?

getting just desserts?

Indoor66
06-29-2017, 08:49 AM
always



what he deserves?

getting just desserts?

Talking about Shaun May again?

Olympic Fan
06-29-2017, 02:19 PM
Looks like the Gordon Hayward free agent battle has divided the Ainge family:

http://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/19767673/ainge-family-public-tug-war-gordon-hayward

JNort
06-29-2017, 02:59 PM
Chris Paul is the most overrated PG of all time. I'd say he was the most overrated player but Melo gets that award.


Harden and Paul will do what they all ways do choke in the playoffs

Good Lord you need some education on NBA basketball. CP3 is perhaps more underrated than anything. Only thing that's ever held him back was a crap team when he was with Nola and injuries in LA. Not sure what you mean by him "choking" in the playoffs since his stats and efficiency all raise in the playoffs despite facing tougher competition.

CP3 is/was the stereotypical pg that could score, pass, shoot, lead, didnt turn the ball over, made others better and played good defense. He always looked for balance between his scoring and creating for other. He probably could have scored 27 a game like Steph and Russ or dropped 15 assists a game if he chose to do so.

SCMatt33
06-29-2017, 02:59 PM
Looks like the Gordon Hayward free agent battle has divided the Ainge family:

http://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/19767673/ainge-family-public-tug-war-gordon-hayward

Not sure that pointing out the tax situation is the best idea for the younger Ainge. After all, the third team in the mix, Miami, is in a place with no state income tax...

CDu
06-29-2017, 03:13 PM
Not sure that pointing out the tax situation is the best idea for the younger Ainge. After all, the third team in the mix, Miami, is in a place with no state income tax...

Worth noting that Miami also actually has the cap space available to sign Hayward to a max deal once they waive Bosh for medical reasons. Boston will still need to make some moves to get a max offer for Hayward, including renouncing the qualifying offer for Olynyk. Given their second half last year, Miami seems to be a sneaky player for Hayward's services.

Truth&Justise
06-29-2017, 03:24 PM
There's some embarrassing stories leaking about Doc the GM doing what was best for Doc the Dad not Doc the Coach.

http://deadspin.com/report-chris-paul-hated-austin-and-doc-rivers-1796493696

FWIW, Austin transformed himself from a punchline to a solid second unit player over the past few years, and odds are that may not have happened had his Dad not been his coach and given him the chance.

I find it difficult to believe that the offer on the table was Anthony and Vujacic for Pierce, Crawford and Rivers. That just doesn't make any sense for NY (sure sure, insert jokes about the Knicks here). Hence, I'm taking this report with a huge grain of salt, especially as it seems to come from a single reporter's facebook post, without corroboration.

flyingdutchdevil
06-29-2017, 03:46 PM
I find it difficult to believe that the offer on the table was Anthony and Vujacic for Pierce, Crawford and Rivers. That just doesn't make any sense for NY (sure sure, insert jokes about the Knicks here). Hence, I'm taking this report with a huge grain of salt, especially as it seems to come from a single reporter's facebook post, without corroboration.

You have a point. But stories about Austin's arrogance, Clippers nepotism, and infighting between Paul and Doc seem realistic. Most - if not all - on this board support Austin, but many of us firmly believe that he is one of the most arrogant players to ever come through Duke's doors.

devildeac
06-29-2017, 03:55 PM
You have a point. But stories about Austin's arrogance, Clippers nepotism, and infighting between Paul and Doc seem realistic. Most - if not all - on this board support Austin, but many of us firmly believe that he is one of the most arrogant players to ever come through Duke's doors.

JE likely waiting the conclusion to your post...

;)

flyingdutchdevil
06-29-2017, 03:56 PM
JE likely waiting the conclusion to your post...

;)

Jason Evans is the anti-Rivers: sincere, lovable, gets along with everyone, and he didn't get here riding his daddy's coattails

devildeac
06-29-2017, 04:01 PM
Jason Evans is the anti-Rivers: sincere, lovable, gets along with everyone, and he didn't get here riding his daddy's coattails

Much better. Ends tomorrow, correct? ;)

Cheaper than beer. :rolleyes:

sagegrouse
06-29-2017, 04:17 PM
You have a point. But stories about Austin's arrogance, Clippers nepotism, and infighting between Paul and Doc seem realistic. Most - if not all - on this board support Austin, but many of us firmly believe that he is one of the most arrogant players to ever come through Duke's doors.

Speak for yourself and not for the rest of us. Or, better yet, don't speak at all if you don't have something constructive to say.

flyingdutchdevil
06-29-2017, 04:27 PM
Speak for yourself and not for the rest of us. Or, better yet, don't speak at all if you don't have something constructive to say.

No thank you. I'll happily speak my mind.

Atlanta Duke
06-29-2017, 07:10 PM
At end of SportsCenter this evening Michael Smith said Calipari allegedly has reached out through an intermediary to express an interest in the Knicks presidency - no surprise since so many kids can be helped by Cal heading up a NBA team

brevity
06-29-2017, 07:34 PM
At end of SportsCenter this evening Michael Smith said Calipari allegedly has reached out through an intermediary to express an interest in the Knicks presidency - no surprise since so many kids can be helped by Cal heading up a NBA team

"This is the greatest day in the history of Kentucky basketball."

- University of Kentucky NCAA Compliance Office (http://www.ukathletics.com/page/compliance)

JetpackJesus
06-29-2017, 07:41 PM
At end of SportsCenter this evening Michael Smith said Calipari allegedly has reached out through an intermediary to express an interest in the Knicks presidency - no surprise since so many kids can be helped by Cal heading up a NBA team

And here's a write up on the story (http://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/19770044/john-calipari-kentucky-wildcats-makes-inquiry-new-york-knicks-sources-say).

nmduke2001
06-29-2017, 08:06 PM
With Cal wanting to go to the Knicks, I thought it would be fun to mess around with some trades. According to ESPNs trade machine the following trade works. Unfortunately, the tool does not consider draft picks so CDu I'll need your help on the draft picks.

Cleveland knows LeBron is gone next year. Why not get something. So here goes

New York Knicks get:
LeBron James

Cleveland Cavs get:
Prozingis
Noah
Lance Thomas
NY 2020 and 2021 first round picks

I think that trade works for both teams. NYC becomes relevant and Cleveland gets a really good young player and 2 future pieces before LeBron bails. LeBron gets to NYC with his buddy. Maybe the Knicks can get some vets on the cheap to join them.

http://www.espn.com/nba/tradeMachine?tradeId=y7grgapq

BD80
06-29-2017, 10:42 PM
... Calipari allegedly has reached out through an intermediary to express an interest in the Knicks presidency ...

Would he have to give up his current position?

Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15
06-29-2017, 10:52 PM
Would he have to give up his current position?

Given my respective interest in college ball and the NBA... can I write a reference letter for him?

JasonEvans
06-30-2017, 12:12 AM
And here's a write up on the story (http://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/19770044/john-calipari-kentucky-wildcats-makes-inquiry-new-york-knicks-sources-say).

The Knicks have supposedly said they are not interested in Cal... so Cal is denying he ever reached out to them in the first place.

Ichabod Drain
06-30-2017, 12:16 AM
You have a point. But stories about Austin's arrogance, Clippers nepotism, and infighting between Paul and Doc seem realistic. Most - if not all - on this board support Austin, but many of us firmly believe that he is one of the most arrogant players to ever come through Duke's doors.

What are some of the stories that were out there before yesterday?

subzero02
06-30-2017, 12:47 AM
What are some of the stories that were out there before yesterday?

A few weeks ago, Big Baby made some negative public comments regarding the doc/Austin relationship. He essentially called Austin spoiled and kept saying that "...your father gave you your money..." in an online video.

https://www.google.com/amp/ftw.usatoday.com/2017/05/glen-big-baby-davis-austin-rivers-comments-doc-instagram-video-rant-money-father-shut-up-lies-response-angry/amp

On a side note, I stumbled across how Doc rivers got his nickname (his real first name is Glenn). The late great Rick Majerus called Rivers "Doc" because he was wearing a Julius Irving shirt at a basketball camp. I don't know exactly when this camp took place but Rick Majerus was an assistant coach for Marquette at the time, so it was between 1971 and 1983.

Ichabod Drain
06-30-2017, 12:55 AM
A few weeks ago, Big Baby made some negative public comments regarding the doc/Austin relationship. He essentially called Austin spoiled and kept saying that "...your father gave you your money..." in an online video.

https://www.google.com/amp/ftw.usatoday.com/2017/05/glen-big-baby-davis-austin-rivers-comments-doc-instagram-video-rant-money-father-shut-up-lies-response-angry/amp

On a side note, I stumbled across how Doc rivers got his nickname (his real first name is Glenn). The late great Rick Majerus called Rivers "Doc" because he was wearing a Julius Irving shirt at a basketball camp. I don't know exactly when this camp took place but Rick Majerus was an assistant coach for Marquette at the time, so it was between 1971 and 1983.

Yea but that's just big baby's opinion... not really a story that illustrates his opinion.

cato
06-30-2017, 02:04 AM
Most - if not all - on this board support Austin, but many of us firmly believe that he is one of the most arrogant players to ever come through Duke's doors.

Arrogant enough to knock this one down, and I thank him for that.
7514

Ichabod Drain
06-30-2017, 09:41 AM
A few weeks ago, Big Baby made some negative public comments regarding the doc/Austin relationship. He essentially called Austin spoiled and kept saying that "...your father gave you your money..." in an online video.


Also I would point out there were plenty of teams offering to pay Austin during his last free agency but he liked the team they had in LA. So his "your father gave you your money" line doesn't hold up.

flyingdutchdevil
06-30-2017, 09:55 AM
What are some of the stories that were out there before yesterday?

Find attached:

http://ftw.usatoday.com/2017/05/glen-big-baby-davis-austin-rivers-comments-doc-instagram-video-rant-money-father-shut-up-lies-response-angry
http://www.slamonline.com/nba/austin-rivers-i-want-to-destroy-lebron-on-the-court-one-day/#gxmZ6FRed4DLcjjJ.97
https://www.clipsnation.com/2015/8/14/9154311/twitter-austin-rivers-thinks-he-is-better-than-a-lot-of-dudes-who

There is a lot of negative press on Austin Rivers since before he even step foot on Duke. To me, most is unfounded. But the arrogance? That's indisputable.

JasonEvans
06-30-2017, 10:00 AM
Also I would point out there were plenty of teams offering to pay Austin during his last free agency but he liked the team they had in LA. So his "your father gave you your money" line doesn't hold up.

Yeah, Austin has absolutely shown he belongs in the NBA and that he is worthy of significant playing time for pretty much any team. I don't recall any outcry that he was being overpaid or that his father only signed him due to nepotism when Rivers got his 3-year, $35 mil deal before last season.

I am pretty skeptical of these stories that his dad refused to make important trades in an effort to keep his son on the team. It seems word about trade requests would probably filter out to others in the organization including the owners. If Doc was making clearly biased moves, the owners would step in and remove him from his job, I would think. Steve Balmer has no special allegiance to Austin Rivers.

That said, there will be a large segment of the population who will believe all this stuff. I suspect Austin will deal with it for a while and that he and Doc will get blamed for the Clippers being worse next season (they will be worse). That said, I don't find the stories that Doc played favorites with his son all that surprising and I sorta think it was always a bad idea to have a dad coaching his son at this level of basketball.

-Jason "with Paul gone, Austin will likely see his role on the Clips expand a bit -- though I would expect Beverley to be the new starting PG" Evans

TKG
06-30-2017, 10:06 AM
At end of SportsCenter this evening Michael Smith said Calipari allegedly has reached out through an intermediary to express an interest in the Knicks presidency - no surprise since so many kids can be helped by Cal heading up a NBA team

As I posted in the MBB Coaching Carousel thread, what are the odds that the "intermediary" is Adrian Wojnarowski? Isn't he a staff member of the Calipari self-promotion team?

flyingdutchdevil
06-30-2017, 10:16 AM
Yeah, Austin has absolutely shown he belongs in the NBA and that he is worthy of significant playing time for pretty much any team. I don't recall any outcry that he was being overpaid or that his father only signed him due to nepotism when Rivers got his 3-year, $35 mil deal before last season.

I am pretty skeptical of these stories that his dad refused to make important trades in an effort to keep his son on the team. It seems word about trade requests would probably filter out to others in the organization including the owners. If Doc was making clearly biased moves, the owners would step in and remove him from his job, I would think. Steve Balmer has no special allegiance to Austin Rivers.

That said, there will be a large segment of the population who will believe all this stuff. I suspect Austin will deal with it for a while and that he and Doc will get blamed for the Clippers being worse next season (they will be worse). That said, I don't find the stories that Doc played favorites with his son all that surprising and I sorta think it was always a bad idea to have a dad coaching his son at this level of basketball.

-Jason "with Paul gone, Austin will likely see his role on the Clips expand a bit -- though I would expect Beverley to be the new starting PG" Evans

Good post, Jason.

There are two major issues that open this door to massive speculation on the Clippers.

The first, that you pointed out, is that it's always a bad idea to have dads/uncles/moms coaching sons/daughters/neices/nephews. The second is that Doc is both head coach and Head of Basketball Operations, which means he has the final say on everything. Hence, every decision - good or bad - is put on Doc. On the surface, it completely looks like Doc is prioritizing his son. And with only Steve Balmer above Doc, there isn't a system of checks & balances.

Ichabod Drain
06-30-2017, 10:28 AM
Find attached:

http://ftw.usatoday.com/2017/05/glen-big-baby-davis-austin-rivers-comments-doc-instagram-video-rant-money-father-shut-up-lies-response-angry
http://www.slamonline.com/nba/austin-rivers-i-want-to-destroy-lebron-on-the-court-one-day/#gxmZ6FRed4DLcjjJ.97
https://www.clipsnation.com/2015/8/14/9154311/twitter-austin-rivers-thinks-he-is-better-than-a-lot-of-dudes-who

There is a lot of negative press on Austin Rivers since before he even step foot on Duke. To me, most is unfounded. But the arrogance? That's indisputable.

Oh I know he's arrogant. I should have clarified that I was mainly looking for stories of nepotism. Other than people's unfounded opinions I haven't seen any actual evidence of it.

Troublemaker
06-30-2017, 11:43 AM
Oh man, NBA free agency starts at 12:01am tonight. This offseason is going to continue to be fun, methinks.

Between this, the upcoming Wimbledon, and NBA Summer League, I'll get my sports fix for the next couple of weeks. After that, though, the summer becomes sort of a drag (unless you're into baseball or other summer sports).

Jeffrey
06-30-2017, 12:08 PM
Arrogant enough to knock this one down, and I thank him for that.
7514

IMO, this is a very good point. There is a fine line between arrogant and confident. My comfort zone with arrogance is whether it can be backed up. For example, I consider Michael Joran arrogant for cause.

JasonEvans
06-30-2017, 12:18 PM
Yeah, Austin has absolutely shown he belongs in the NBA and that he is worthy of significant playing time for pretty much any team. I don't recall any outcry that he was being overpaid or that his father only signed him due to nepotism when Rivers got his 3-year, $35 mil deal before last season.

So, here is an article from ClipsNation (https://www.clipsnation.com/2016/7/19/12220666/grade-the-signing-clippers-keep-austin-rivers-for-3-years-35-million) about Austin's contract when it was signed about a year ago. The 5 writers who cover the Clippers for the site all chime in about the signing and though a couple of them think the deal might be a tad rich, no one seems even mildly upset about it. There is no talk that this is a sweetheart deal given because of Austin's relationship with Doc. Everyone agrees that it is somewhere between a B- and a B+ deal... and there were a lot of C, D, and F deals handed out last summer.

What's more, more than 1000 fans voted on the deal in a poll on the site. 55% give it and A or B; 20% say C; and 25% judge it a D or F. That's not overwhelming support, but isn't nearly a loud outcry of anger.

--Jason "Austin is fairly paid, there's no question about that, IMO. But, I have no idea if Doc treats him differently from other players at practice and in the locker room, as Chris Paul apparently thinks" Evans

Indoor66
06-30-2017, 12:21 PM
IMO, this is a very good point. There is a fine line between arrogant and confident.

IMO, it ain't arrogance if you can consistently perform.

Jeffrey
06-30-2017, 12:29 PM
IMO, it ain't arrogance if you can consistently perform.

Exactly! Many consider Duke arrogant, but the banners tell a different story!

Troublemaker
06-30-2017, 03:38 PM
Various pieces of news, with my Duke spin on them:


Derek Bodner‏Verified account @DerekBodnerNBA (https://twitter.com/DerekBodnerNBA) 6h6 hours ago (https://twitter.com/DerekBodnerNBA/status/880788274796777472)
"The Sixers have told agents they will seek one-year deals this summer to preserve future space" per @ZachLowe_NBA (https://twitter.com/ZachLowe_NBA).


I can't see JJ signing just a 1-year deal, so maybe the Sixers aren't the favorite to get him.



Marc Stein‏Verified account @ESPNSteinLine (https://twitter.com/ESPNSteinLine) 3h3 hours ago (https://twitter.com/ESPNSteinLine/status/880820092442783744)
League sources: Growing resignation among interested teams that New Orleans comes to terms quickly with Jrue Holiday on rich five-year deal


So New Orleans' PG rotation won't be Duke-Duke in the form of Quinn and Frank, not that that should've been the expectation. I was hoping, though.



Zach Lowe‏Verified account @ZachLowe_NBA (https://twitter.com/ZachLowe_NBA) 2h2 hours ago (https://twitter.com/ZachLowe_NBA/status/880845209428471808)
As of now, the Warriors and Andre Iguodala have no meeting scheduled, sources say. Could change any minute. Sides are optimistic.


You know, even if the Cavs can't trade for Paul George (and they should do everything in their power to get that done), it's possible that Kyrie/Dahntay's chances of winning another NBA ring tick up just a bit if GSW loses Iguodala. But doesn't look like that's the case here.

kAzE
06-30-2017, 05:18 PM
Ricky Rubio was just traded to the Jazz for a 2018 first round pick. Does that mean Tyus Jones is now the Timberwolves' nominal starting point guard?

If so . . . sign me up for some T-Wolves on league pass next year!

Troublemaker
06-30-2017, 05:28 PM
Ricky Rubio was just traded to the Jazz for a 2018 first round pick. Does that mean Tyus Jones is now the Timberwolves' nominal starting point guard?

If so . . . sign me up for some T-Wolves on league pass next year!

This might mean Kyle Lowry to the Wolves at a bit of a discount, but I do think Thibs is comfortable with Tyus as a backup PG now. Being in the rotation for a contending team is pretty good for a late first-round draft pick like Tyus.

JasonEvans
06-30-2017, 05:30 PM
Ricky Rubio was just traded to the Jazz for a 2018 first round pick. Does that mean Tyus Jones is now the Timberwolves' nominal starting point guard?

If so . . . sign me up for some T-Wolves on league pass next year!

I think it is more likely the T-Wolves try to turn Jimmy Butler into a bit of a James Harden point-forward by putting the ball in Butler's hands as much as possible. There is little question they will be seeking a shooter in the backcourt... maybe JJ? The Rubio deal clears a lot of salary cap space for them. Maybe I am missing something, but I think they have $25+ mil to go after a max free agent. Could they make a bid for Hayward?

Troublemaker
06-30-2017, 05:32 PM
David Aldridge‏Verified account @daldridgetnt (https://twitter.com/daldridgetnt) 25m25 minutes ago (https://twitter.com/daldridgetnt/status/880895107159011328)
Sixers announce they’ve waived veteran G Gerald Henderson. His $9M 2017-18 salary was guaranteed if he wasn’t waived by today.

JasonEvans
06-30-2017, 05:38 PM
I think it is more likely the T-Wolves try to turn Jimmy Butler into a bit of a James Harden point-forward by putting the ball in Butler's hands as much as possible. There is little question they will be seeking a shooter in the backcourt... maybe JJ? The Rubio deal clears a lot of salary cap space for them. Maybe I am missing something, but I think they have $25+ mil to go after a max free agent. Could they make a bid for Hayward?

Lots of talk on Twitter that Minnesota is going to after Kyle Lowry. Whew, a lineup of Lowry, Butler, Wiggins, Dieng, and Towns is really strong... top 5 in the NBA, I think.

Troublemaker
06-30-2017, 05:47 PM
Blah. It might turn out to only be Jeff Teague actually.

Sam Amick‏Verified account @sam_amick (https://twitter.com/sam_amick) 25m25 minutes ago (https://twitter.com/sam_amick/status/880899047313219584)
Updated intel on Minnesota front: expectation from folks who would know is that Jeff Teague is heavy, heavy favorite with T-Wolves.

DukeTrinity11
06-30-2017, 05:48 PM
Kyle Lowry or Jeff Teague will probably end up on the Wolves but if not...the Tyus Jones era will begin in Minnesota!! :cool:

DukeTrinity11
06-30-2017, 05:49 PM
Lots of talk on Twitter that Minnesota is going to after Kyle Lowry. Whew, a lineup of Lowry, Butler, Wiggins, Dieng, and Towns is really strong... top 5 in the NBA, I think.
Strongly disagree Jason, they don't have enough 3 point shooting still to be a serious contender IMHO.

JasonEvans
06-30-2017, 07:22 PM
Strongly disagree Jason, they don't have enough 3 point shooting still to be a serious contender IMHO.

Lowry hit 41% of his 3s last year.
Butler hit 36%.
Town, one of the best outside shooting big men in the game, hit 37%.

Yes, they need some outside shooting off the bench (Tyus hit 35% of his 3s and figures to be a key reserve for the TWolves this season), but if they land Lowry, this is going to be a heck of a good team.

-Jason "agree to disagree... but I think it will be moot as it seems they want Teague more than Lowry for some reason" Evans

kshepinthehouse
06-30-2017, 07:24 PM
Lowry hit 41% of his 3s last year.
Butler hit 36%.
Town, one of the best outside shooting big men in the game, hit 37%.

Yes, they need some outside shooting off the bench (Tyus hit 35% of his 3s and figures to be a key reserve for the TWolves this season), but if they land Lowry, this is going to be a heck of a good team.

They will be better. But I think top 5 is a stretch.

JasonEvans
06-30-2017, 07:30 PM
They will be better. But I think top 5 is a stretch.

I get the skepticism... but aside from GS, SA, Cle, and Bos... who will be better? Maybe Miami if they get Hayward. Any other candidates? In terms of teams current rosters, who else is better?

This all may be moot as it appears Minn is getting Teague, not Lowry. I think there is a HUGE difference in those two players

-Jason "Win Shares says Lowry (10.1 last season) is worth 2 more games than Teague (8.1 last year)... and Lowry played 25% fewer games" Evans

COYS
06-30-2017, 07:45 PM
I get the skepticism... but aside from GS, SA, Cle, and Bos... who will be better? Maybe Miami if they get Hayward. Any other candidates? In terms of teams current rosters, who else is better?

This all may be moot as it appears Minn is getting Teague, not Lowry. I think there is a HUGE difference in those two players

-Jason "Win Shares says Lowry (10.1 last season) is worth 2 more games than Teague (8.1 last year)... and Lowry played 25% fewer games" Evans

I guess the Wolves value Teague's age, but Teague is still old enough that he has probably reached or is currently at his peak, just like Lowry. And Lowry is significantly better. Seems like an odd decision from where I'm sitting, assuming they had an equal shot at Teague and Lowry for roughly the same price.

BigZ
06-30-2017, 08:37 PM
If I'm the Sixers I sign JJ then package Oak and picks to the Pacers in 3 team deal with Cavs to bring Love to Philly. Fultz-Redick-Simmons-Embied is a damn good five.

JasonEvans
06-30-2017, 10:03 PM
Blake Griffin is reportedly signing with the Clippers for 5 years and $183 mil. Wow!

I was going to add a comment about the Clips regretting that deal when Blake is in his upper 30s, but I looked it up and he is just 28. I could have sworn he was 30+.

Troublemaker
06-30-2017, 10:03 PM
Paul George to OKC for Oladipo and Sabonis.

lol, how are the Celtics and Cavs getting outbid on these paltry trade packages for Butler and now George? Ridiculous. Boston in particular should never be getting outbid with all their assets.

JasonEvans
06-30-2017, 10:05 PM
And now comes news that Paul George is going to the Thunder for Domantas Sabonis and Victor Oladipo. WOWOWOWWOW!!

Troublemaker
06-30-2017, 10:08 PM
And now comes news that Paul George is going to the Thunder for Domantas Sabonis and Victor Oladipo. WOWOWOWWOW!!

This offseason's been fantastic.

Alex Kennedy‏Verified account @AlexKennedyNBA (https://twitter.com/AlexKennedyNBA) 8m8 minutes ago (https://twitter.com/AlexKennedyNBA/status/880969011500109826)
In the last 10 days, Chris Paul, Jimmy Butler, Paul George, Ricky Rubio, Dwight Howard, Brook Lopez, D'Angelo Russell, #1 pick were traded.

JasonEvans
06-30-2017, 10:08 PM
lol, how are the Celtics and Cavs getting outbid on these paltry trade packages for Butler and now George? Ridiculous. Boston in particular should never be getting outbid with all their assets.

I guess Ainge wants to save his cap space for Heyward... but I'm not sure what he is doing. It could also be that in this era of mega contracts he just wants to collect cheap rookies and not trade for high dollar vets.

Regardless, the East just of easier and the West tougher... again.

TKG
06-30-2017, 10:09 PM
Paul George to OKC for Oladipo and Sabonis.

lol, how are the Celtics and Cavs getting outbid on these paltry trade packages for Butler and now George? Ridiculous. Boston in particular should never be getting outbid with all their assets.

My guess is the Celtics are going all in on Hayward. Their salary cap space matches what they can off him.

Troublemaker
06-30-2017, 10:18 PM
I guess Ainge wants to save his cap space for Heyward... but I'm not sure what he is doing. It could also be that in this era of mega contracts he just wants to collect cheap rookies and not trade for high dollar vets.

Regardless, the East just of easier and the West tougher... again.


My guess is the Celtics are going all in on Hayward. Their salary cap space matches what they can off him.

Boston's plan was to get BOTH Hayward and George by sequencing the transactions correctly (http://www.csnne.com/boston-celtics/report-celtics-plan-sequencing-acquisitions-hayward-george). Basically, what they had to do was beat the OKC offer, then execute the trade AFTER signing Hayward.

But either (a) Boston was unwilling to beat the package of Oladipo and Sabonis and/or (b) the Pacers GM way overvalued Oladipo and Sabonis relative to Boston's best offer.

Troublemaker
06-30-2017, 10:23 PM
Joel Embiid‏Verified account @JoelEmbiid (https://twitter.com/JoelEmbiid) 32m32 minutes ago (https://twitter.com/JoelEmbiid/status/880966827530211328)
Playoffs spots are opening up hehehehe #TheProcess (https://twitter.com/hashtag/TheProcess?src=hash)

TKG
06-30-2017, 10:28 PM
Boston's plan was to get BOTH Hayward and George by sequencing the transactions correctly (http://www.csnne.com/boston-celtics/report-celtics-plan-sequencing-acquisitions-hayward-george). Basically, what they had to do was beat the OKC offer, then execute the trade AFTER signing Hayward.

But either (a) Boston was unwilling to beat the package of Oladipo and Sabonis and/or (b) the Pacers GM way overvalued Oladipo and Sabonis relative to Boston's best offer.

Take if for want it's worth, but Boston sports radio and some of the local print media were suggesting that the George trade would have to include Tatum. Perhaps Ainge wasn't really willing to part with Tatum for the chance (remote?) of convincing George to remain in Boston after the 17-18 season. Bird in the hand (no pun intended).

TKG
06-30-2017, 10:36 PM
From Jeff Goodman:

Celtics offer on draft night for Paul George, per league source, was 3 first-round picks (not the Nets pick next year or the Lakers/Kings pick) and two starters (Crowder being one).

Found via Team Stream by Bleacher Report.

pfrduke
06-30-2017, 10:37 PM
Boston's plan was to get BOTH Hayward and George by sequencing the transactions correctly (http://www.csnne.com/boston-celtics/report-celtics-plan-sequencing-acquisitions-hayward-george). Basically, what they had to do was beat the OKC offer, then execute the trade AFTER signing Hayward.

But either (a) Boston was unwilling to beat the package of Oladipo and Sabonis and/or (b) the Pacers GM way overvalued Oladipo and Sabonis relative to Boston's best offer.

Report is that Boston put 3 1sts (but not the Brooklyn one) and two starters (unnamed) on the table on draft night and Indiana turned them down. Which leads me to three possible (and not necessarily mutually exclusive) conclusions: (a) Pritchard really didn't want George in the east; (b) when you get a rep as the "smartest" team on trades, people stop wanting to trade with you to avoid being the punch line in yet another "Boston fleeced someone" story; or (c) your point b above.

Troublemaker
07-01-2017, 12:16 AM
JJ meeting with Sixers first after midnight:

Adrian Wojnarowski‏Verified account @wojespn (https://twitter.com/wojespn) 4m4 minutes ago (https://twitter.com/wojespn/status/881002173403873281)
Free agent JJ Redick is meeting with the 76ers, league sources tell ESPN.

Furniture
07-01-2017, 12:42 AM
http://forums.dukebasketballreport.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=7515&stc=1

JasonEvans
07-01-2017, 12:43 AM
I get the skepticism... but aside from GS, SA, Cle, and Bos... who will be better? Maybe Miami if they get Hayward. Any other candidates? In terms of teams current rosters, who else is better?

I'm an idiot... I forgot about Chris Paul in Houston.

Ok, I think Minny is top 6 ;)

JasonEvans
07-01-2017, 12:46 AM
Side note - I bet Lebron is throwing stuff at the wall in anger at all the moves happening... none of which involve his team getting any better.

His only consolation is that it seems no one in the East is getting better. Houston, Minnesota, and OKC seem to be the big winners thus far...

kshepinthehouse
07-01-2017, 05:57 AM
Side note - I bet Lebron is throwing stuff at the wall in anger at all the moves happening... none of which involve his team getting any better.

His only consolation is that it seems no one in the East is getting better. Houston, Minnesota, and OKC seem to be the big winners thus far...

Yea I was gonna say...what about Houston.

I really feel the cavs just lost their chance to make a vast improvement. I still think they can improve but not enough to come close to the Warriors. I wouldn't consider myself a Warriors fan per se but I am definitely enjoying watching them play and love to see Lebron get crushed. Paul George scares me a little if they would have added him. Jimmy Butler also would have been a nice addition. I can't see anyone else out there moving the needle for them. I don't think Carmelo or Wade will make them that much, if at all better.

One interesting article I read is that teams around the league have realized that they can't win in an arms race with the Warriors. They felt their best chance to compete was to try to break up the team by signing some of their players. Iggy looks to be the first they have a shot at poaching. I think this will hurt the Warriors a little but not as much as people are making it out to be. He has been great for them but his body is showing signs of breaking down. Plus Curry and Durant will only get better together over time. This could mark the end of the death lineup which she been one of the most lethal lineups in NBA history.

Recent reports say Rudy Gay may be a backup play if Iggy decides to go elsewhere.

dukelifer
07-01-2017, 06:47 AM
Blake Griffin is reportedly signing with the Clippers for 5 years and $183 mil. Wow!

I was going to add a comment about the Clips regretting that deal when Blake is in his upper 30s, but I looked it up and he is just 28. I could have sworn he was 30+.

His body is much older than his age.

Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15
07-01-2017, 07:13 AM
His body is much older than his age.

Sounds like me.

superdave
07-01-2017, 07:24 AM
JJ meeting with Sixers first after midnight:

Adrian Wojnarowski‏Verified account @wojespn (https://twitter.com/wojespn) 4m4 minutes ago (https://twitter.com/wojespn/status/881002173403873281)
Free agent JJ Redick is meeting with the 76ers, league sources tell ESPN.


Gerald Henderson's departure makes room for JJ Redick. JJ can stretch the floor, Henderson cannot. Henderson really needs to hit 3's if he's going to be a major rotation player going forward.

superdave
07-01-2017, 07:35 AM
Paul George to OKC for Oladipo and Sabonis.

lol, how are the Celtics and Cavs getting outbid on these paltry trade packages for Butler and now George? Ridiculous. Boston in particular should never be getting outbid with all their assets.


And now comes news that Paul George is going to the Thunder for Domantas Sabonis and Victor Oladipo. WOWOWOWWOW!!


I guess Ainge wants to save his cap space for Heyward... but I'm not sure what he is doing. It could also be that in this era of mega contracts he just wants to collect cheap rookies and not trade for high dollar vets.

Regardless, the East just of easier and the West tougher... again.


My guess with this price tag for George - low to very low - is because George's agent made known this was a one-year rental not a purchase. If George plans to flee to the Lakers after one season, then doing what you can to make Russell Westbrook happy for a year may be a good move. Oladipo/Sabonis is worth that price.

But from the Pacers perspective, shouldnt they have gotten draft picks in return? I guess Oladipo is a pretty solid building block - 36% from 3, 16 per game, age 25. Sabonis had a tough year though. Seems like cap filler. I'd have gotten at least a first rounder in addition to this.

kshepinthehouse
07-01-2017, 07:40 AM
My guess with this price tag for George - low to very low - is because George's agent made known this was a one-year rental not a purchase. If George plans to flee to the Lakers after one season, then doing what you can to make Russell Westbrook happy for a year may be a good move. Oladipo/Sabonis is worth that price.

But from the Pacers perspective, shouldnt they have gotten draft picks in return? I guess Oladipo is a pretty solid building block - 36% from 3, 16 per game, age 25. Sabonis had a tough year though. Seems like cap filler. I'd have gotten at least a first rounder in addition to this.

Oladipo is okay. If for some reason the Thunder can convince Paul George to resign this is the steal of the century. Sounds like the Pacers didn't want to solidify any teams in the East. I would have personally preferred draft picks as well.

devildeac
07-01-2017, 08:18 AM
Just saw on CNN that Steph Curry will be signing a 5Y/$201M deal:eek:. I shoulda had a better vertical :rolleyes:.

Indoor66
07-01-2017, 08:40 AM
Just saw on CNN that Steph Curry will be signing a 5Y/$201M deal:eek:. I shoulda had a better vertical :rolleyes:.

I'd bet the issue is more related to ball handling and shooting & scoring skills! :D

That said, congrats to Steph. He has earned it with his play. I do believe that $40,000,000 per year is a little excessive for bouncing a ball on a court while wearing short pants - for anyone!

TKG
07-01-2017, 08:59 AM
Jeff Teague signs 3-year, $57 million deal with the Wolves.

Troublemaker
07-01-2017, 09:46 AM
One interesting article I read is that teams around the league have realized that they can't win in an arms race with the Warriors. They felt their best chance to compete was to try to break up the team by signing some of their players.

As long as contenders still make the attempt to try to beat the Warriors, then I am sated. This past week of NBA transactions tells me that teams are not just going to turtle and wait out the Warriors. They're making moves to try to improve, to try to beat GSW. I'm proud of those teams making moves like the Rockets, OKC, Minnesota, etc.

Troublemaker
07-01-2017, 09:51 AM
Oladipo is okay. If for some reason the Thunder can convince Paul George to resign this is the steal of the century. Sounds like the Pacers didn't want to solidify any teams in the East. I would have personally preferred draft picks as well.

Even if George leaves after 1 year, it's still a steal. Oladipo is a negative asset (an average player that's overpaid), and OKC was able to dump him on the Pacers.

One of the NBA beat reporters on twitter said that a team's executive told him that OKC executed the greatest salary dump ever.

TKG
07-01-2017, 10:13 AM
https://www.sbnation.com/nba/2017/7/1/15907324/paul-george-trade-pacers-what-about-the-celtics

One man's take on the Celtics' use of their stockpile of assets (or, more accurately, their attempts to use the stockpile).

Troublemaker
07-01-2017, 10:34 AM
An alternative take (in form of a tweet) here:

Nate Duncan‏Verified account @NateDuncanNBA (https://twitter.com/NateDuncanNBA) 8h8 hours ago (https://twitter.com/NateDuncanNBA/status/881037014946074628)
It is pretty curious how the Celtics keep making these massive offers and keep falling short isn't it? Either other teams real dumb, or...



I actually believe teams CAN be that dumb, but it's important to note that the Celtics don't actually have to be telling the truth about what they offered, after the fact.

cato
07-01-2017, 11:56 AM
Good for Steph. I've liked him since the Davidson days, but Seth really made me a fan of the whole Curry family.

Indoor66
07-01-2017, 12:10 PM
Good for Steph. I've liked him since the Davidson days, but Seth really made me a fan of the whole Curry family.

And I thought it was Sonya. 😀😎

JasonEvans
07-01-2017, 12:17 PM
Even if George leaves after 1 year, it's still a steal. Oladipo is a negative asset (an average player that's overpaid), and OKC was able to dump him on the Pacers.

One of the NBA beat reporters on twitter said that a team's executive told him that OKC executed the greatest salary dump ever.

I just realized that Oladiplo's extension kicks in starting next year. So, thought OKC paid him just $6.5 mil last season, he is due to make $21 mil a season for the next 4 years, until 2021. Whoa... that is a seriously bloated contract for a decent, but not great player. What the heck was Indiana thinking bringing in a $21 mil/season player who is nowhere near All-Star caliber?!?! Are you planning to build your franchise around Victor Oladipo?!?!

So, if the reports are true and Indiana took this deal over clearly better ones offered by Boston because they could not bear to see George in the East... well... all I know is that Indiana does not need to worry about how good Boston might be because the Pacers are not going to be challenging the Celtics in any way for quite some time.

-Jason "this isn't even good tanking strategy by Indiana because they are tying up precious salary cap space... baffling" Evans

wsb3
07-01-2017, 12:18 PM
And I thought it was Sonya. 😀😎

There is that...😄

JasonEvans
07-01-2017, 12:27 PM
Curry's deal looks amazing ($34.6 mil next year rising to $45.7 mil in 2022), an average of $40 mil per season... but John Wall is about to eclipse it in terms of per-year salary when he signs the Wizards 4-year, $170 mil super max extension offer. Wall will just be 31 when that deal is done with career earnings of almost $280 million. By the time his career is over, it is likely that he will have earned more than half a billion dollars from just playing basketball (to say nothing of his endorsement deals).

-Jason "if only I was a lot quicker, a lot more coordinated, and really dedicated to improving myself athletically... I too could have made a mint ;) " Evans

SCMatt33
07-01-2017, 02:16 PM
I just realized that Oladiplo's extension kicks in starting next year. So, thought OKC paid him just $6.5 mil last season, he is due to make $21 mil a season for the next 4 years, until 2021. Whoa... that is a seriously bloated contract for a decent, but not great player. What the heck was Indiana thinking bringing in a $21 mil/season player who is nowhere near All-Star caliber?!?! Are you planning to build your franchise around Victor Oladipo?!?!

So, if the reports are true and Indiana took this deal over clearly better ones offered by Boston because they could not bear to see George in the East... well... all I know is that Indiana does not need to worry about how good Boston might be because the Pacers are not going to be challenging the Celtics in any way for quite some time.

-Jason "this isn't even good tanking strategy by Indiana because they are tying up precious salary cap space... baffling" Evans

The only rationale I can think of for this is that ownership in Indiana is unwilling to go full blown tank and would rather try to keep a team that has some chance of making the playoffs even if there's no legit chance of title contention. Because of his history with IU, I imagine that more than anywhere else, Oladipo can help sell some tickets that wouldn't get sold during a full blown tank.

sagegrouse
07-01-2017, 02:28 PM
The only rationale I can think of for this is that ownership in Indiana is unwilling to go full blown tank and would rather try to keep a team that has some chance of making the playoffs even if there's no legit chance of title contention. Because of his history with IU, I imagine that more than anywhere else, Oladipo can help sell some tickets that wouldn't get sold during a full blown tank.

Really odd. You have to believe the Indiana Hoosier connection had something to do with the Pacers' deal -- but $21 million per year worth of "local hero?"

JasonEvans
07-01-2017, 03:57 PM
A lot of being written and said this weekend about the flight of talent from the East to the West. A very interesting tweet (https://twitter.com/NickVanExit/status/880971718600396800) pointed out the following:


3 of these players will not be All-Stars:

Curry
Durant
Klay
Dray
Kawhi
Harden
CP3
Westbrook
George
Gasol (Marc)
Butler
Towns
Davis
Cousins
Lillard

He forgot to mention Jordan, Griffin, Wiggins, Aldridge, McCollum, Booker, Conley and perhaps some other guys who rise up. And what if Hayward decides to stay in Utah? Wow!!

How many guys in the East would even have a shot at making All-Star in the West? Lebron, Kyrie, Thomas, DeRozan, Wall, Freak... anyone else?

-Jason "Milsap is probably headed out West too... man, OKC could really use his floor spacing but there's no way they could make it work under the cap, could they?" Evans

Troublemaker
07-01-2017, 04:12 PM
JJ to the Sixers, accepting their one year offer (for a lot of money, mind you):

Adrian Wojnarowski‏Verified account @wojespn (https://twitter.com/wojespn) 2m2 minutes ago (https://twitter.com/wojespn/status/881243180880076803)More
JJ Redick has agreed to a one-year, $23 million deal with the 76ers, league sources tell ESPN.

cato
07-01-2017, 04:12 PM
A lot of being written and said this weekend about the flight of talent from the East to the West. A very interesting tweet (https://twitter.com/NickVanExit/status/880971718600396800) pointed out the following:



He forgot to mention Jordan, Griffin, Wiggins, Aldridge, McCollum, Booker, Conley and perhaps some other guys who rise up. And what if Hayward decides to stay in Utah? Wow!!

How many guys in the East would even have a shot at making All-Star in the West? Lebron, Kyrie, Thomas, DeRozan, Wall, Freak... anyone else?

-Jason "Milsap is probably headed out West too... man, OKC could really use his floor spacing but there's no way they could make it work under the cap, could they?" Evans

It just hit me: get rid of the East and West Conferences and replace them with Division 1 and Division 2. Division 1 is the top half from the prior season and Division 2 is the bottom.

At playoff time, build the bracket based on final rankings, with Division 1 getting preferential seeding.

At the end of the year, you reshuffle. Maybe do it relegation/promotion style, with only a certain number of teams moving up or down a year.

This would fix a structure where one team can dominate a bad conference while talent stockpiles in the other.