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kAzE
05-26-2017, 11:31 AM
Wasn't sure where to talk about this, so new thread. If a moderator wants to move this into another thread, feel free.

http://www.espn.com/mens-college-basketball/story/_/id/19445380/grayson-allen-again-leads-list-top-25-players-college-basketball

Duke has 3 players in the top 14. Grayson comes in at #1, Wendell at #10, and Trevon at #14. Only 1 Kentucky player, Diallo (#21), and Joel Berry is the lone Tar Heel (#19).

That's some pretty lofty expectations for that trio. I have no problem with Grayson being #1, but I'm permanently in wait and see mode with these freshmen.

Miles Bridges at #8 seems low. He looked like a monster when he was healthy last year. Jalen Brunson was pretty good the last 2 years . . . but #5 seems way too high. I'll admit I haven't watched too much WCC basketball, but this is maybe the 2nd or 3rd time I've even heard mention of Jock Landale, who is #6? Seriously? Joel Berry is #19 and some guy who plays for St. Mary's is #6?

This guy seems like a Duke homer if I'm going to be honest. I like seeing pro-Duke stuff, but this is probably a bit too optimistic. I'm buying in that we are likely a top 10 team, but if we really have 3 of the top 14 players in the country, including the best player in the country, we should be the overwhelming national title favorites.

flyingdutchdevil
05-26-2017, 11:37 AM
Wasn't sure where to talk about this, so new thread. If a moderator wants to move this into another thread, feel free.

http://www.espn.com/mens-college-basketball/story/_/id/19445380/grayson-allen-again-leads-list-top-25-players-college-basketball

Duke has 3 players in the top 14. Grayson comes in at #1, Wendell at #10, and Trevon at #14. Only 1 Kentucky player, Diallo (#21), and Jeol Berry is the lone Tar Heel (#19).

That's some pretty lofty expectations for that trio. I have no problem with Grayson being #1, but I'm permanently in wait and see mode with these freshmen.

Miles Bridges at #8 seems a bit low. He looked like a monster when he was healthy last year. Jalen Brunson was pretty good the last 2 years . . . but #5 seems way too high. I'll admit I haven't watched too much WCC basketball, but this is the first time I've even heard of Jock Landale, who is #6? Seriously? Joel Berry is #19 and some guy in the WCC is #6?

This guy seems like a Duke homer if I'm going to be honest. I like seeing pro-Duke stuff, but this is probably a bit too optimistic. I'm buying in that we are likely a top 10 team, but if we really have 3 of the top 14 players in the country, including the best player in the country, we should be the prohibitive national title favorites.

Grayson at #1 makes a ton of sense, and I think the write-up is incredibly fair. No suspension + no injury = best player in the country.

Carter at 10 and Duval at 14 are pretty insane, however. Gasaway has a problem with loving rookies, so I'm not surprised to see that. But I'd be surprised if Carter and Duval end of anywhere near 1st or 2nd team All-ACC teams, not to mention All-American.

I do agree with his 1, 2, 3. Grayson makes sense, Colson is obviously a proven beast, and Michael Porter should be the #1 draft pick next year. He's Jayson Tatum with better length and athleticism. He's a beast and the perfect Duke 4.

CDu
05-26-2017, 11:45 AM
Weirdly, Gasaway bumped Berry down from #10. So for some reason Carter, Devonte Graham, Duval, Kelan Martin, Landry Shamet, Nick Ward, and Mo Bamba all passed Berry in the last month.

Maybe it is because Tony Bradley stayed in the draft, which hurts UNC's chances?

kAzE
05-26-2017, 11:53 AM
Grayson at #1 makes a ton of sense, and I think the write-up is incredibly fair. No suspension + no injury = best player in the country.

Carter at 10 and Duval at 14 are pretty insane, however. Gasaway has a problem with loving rookies, so I'm not surprised to see that. But I'd be surprised if Carter and Duval end of anywhere near 1st or 2nd team All-ACC teams, not to mention All-American.

I do agree with his 1, 2, 3. Grayson makes sense, Colson is obviously a proven beast, and Michael Porter should be the #1 draft pick next year. He's Jayson Tatum with better length and athleticism. He's a beast and the perfect Duke 4.

In 2015 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2015_NCAA_Men%27s_Basketball_All-Americans), we had one consensus 1st teamer: Jahlil Okafor. Quinn Cook got a little bit of love, but did not make any consensus AA teams. Tyus and Justise were not on any publication's 1st, 2nd, or 3rd teams.

In 2010 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2010_NCAA_Men%27s_Basketball_All-Americans), we had one consensus 2nd teamer: Jon Scheyer. Kyle Singler and Nolan Smith did not make 1st, 2nd, or 3rd team on any publication.

In 2001 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2001_NCAA_Men%27s_Basketball_All-Americans), we had 2 consensus 1st team AA's with Shane Battier and Jason Williams. I think it's fair to say that we had the best team in the country that year, and were national title favorites.

So, if what the Gasaway article says is true, then Grayson will be 1st team, Wendell will be 2nd team, and Trevon will be 3rd team. Not All-ACC. All-American. That would be the best Duke team since 2001, basically. (Or maybe 2002, that was team was awesome)

There's no way that happens. I think even my most wildly optimistic expectations would be Grayson on 1st team, and MAYBE Trevon or Wendell on 3rd team.

TruBlu
05-26-2017, 11:54 AM
Weirdly, Gasaway bumped Berry down from #10. So for some reason Carter, Devonte Graham, Duval, Kelan Martin, Landry Shamet, Nick Ward, and Mo Bamba all passed Berry in the last month.

Possibly due to loosing Bradley? Teams will be able to concentrate on stopping his low release jump shot better. It is surprising to me that he didn't have more 3 pointers blocked last year, but that was probably due to teams having to play off of him due to their front court.

Would be nice to see him get many, many, many swatted back this coming year.

GTHC!!!

Troublemaker
05-26-2017, 12:12 PM
Awards (All-ACC, All-American) do not have to correlate all that well with how good players are.

For example, Luke was 2nd-team All-American last season, but I think senior Quinn Cook (merely 2nd-team All-ACC) was clearly a better player because he played both ends of the court. Highly efficient offense PLUS defense wins.

I think Wendell will be one of the 10 best players in the country, based on my own scouting and the scouting of some folks that I trust. My only concern is that he might be a better center than a power forward, and so to maximize his time spent playing his best position, we'll need Javin or Jack to step up.

DukeTrinity11
05-26-2017, 12:19 PM
Miles Bridges at #8 and Allonzo Trier at #9 is a joke. They would be my top 3 players in the country along with Grayson Allen. I also think Ethan Happ is overrated since he doesn't really have any range and won't have good perimeter options to swing the ball out to on the perimeter with Hayes, Showalter, Koenig and Vitto Brown graduating.

My Top 10
1. Miles Bridges
2. Grayson Allen
3. Allonzo Trier
4. Michael Porter
5. Bonzie Colson
6. Trevon Bluiett
7. Jevon Carter
8. DeAndre Ayton
9. Joel Berry
10. Nick Ward

pfrduke
05-26-2017, 12:51 PM
Awards (All-ACC, All-American) do not have to correlate all that well with how good players are.

To illustrate, Jayson Tatum was not on any of the three all-american teams or even among the AP honorable mentions. Luke Nelson of UC-Irvine was an AP honorable mention All-American; Tatum was not. But, perhaps aside from a few deluded 'eater die-hards, I think it would be unanimous that Tatum is better.

kAzE
05-26-2017, 12:52 PM
Miles Bridges at #8 and Allonzo Trier at #9 is a joke. They would be my top 3 players in the country along with Grayson Allen. I also think Ethan Happ is overrated since he doesn't really have any range and won't have good perimeter options to swing the ball out to on the perimeter with Hayes, Showalter, Koenig and Vitto Brown graduating.

My Top 10
1. Miles Bridges
2. Grayson Allen
3. Allonzo Trier
4. Michael Porter
5. Bonzie Colson
6. Trevon Bluiett
7. Jevon Carter
8. DeAndre Ayton
9. Joel Berry
10. Nick Ward

I don't think he's overrated at all, he's probably going to be as good or better than Jahlil Okafor was in his freshman year. I dunno how much Ethan Happ you've watched, but he's incredibly skilled. His only weakness is that his shot is terrible, and he struggles at the free throw line. But other than that, he is a really good ball handler for a big man, a really good passer, an elite defensive player and rebounder, and has Okafor-esque moves in the post as a scorer. I think he's absolutely deserving of a top 5 ranking. I think he's almost a lock for 1st team all Big Ten (he was 1st team last year, and 1st team all-defense), and will likely be an All-American.

whereinthehellami
05-26-2017, 01:07 PM
Possibly due to loosing Bradley? Teams will be able to concentrate on stopping his low release jump shot better. It is surprising to me that he didn't have more 3 pointers blocked last year, but that was probably due to teams having to play off of him due to their front court.

Would be nice to see him get many, many, many swatted back this coming year.

GTHC!!!

Obviously Berry was very good last year but I was surprised at his stats. 43% from 2, 38% from 3, and 3.6 APG are not special numbers. Has he leveled out due to his height and low release on his shot? If teams are able to focus their D on him this year and those numbers fall off, is he All-ACC?
7437

whereinthehellami
05-26-2017, 01:15 PM
I think Wendell will be one of the 10 best players in the country, based on my own scouting and the scouting of some folks that I trust. My only concern is that he might be a better center than a power forward, and so to maximize his time spent playing his best position, we'll need Javin or Jack to step up.

Interior passing is one area that I'm excited about with regards to Carter at the 4 being paired with Bolden at the 5. Not only is Carter a gifted interior passer but he looks/likes to share the ball. There should be a lot of easy dunks for Bolden and DeLaulier (when Carter goes 5) thanks to Carter.

I hope Duke focuses on getting Carter a touch every time down the floor. Carter could get over 3 APG. Does Ferry have the APG record for bigs?

Dukehky
05-26-2017, 01:18 PM
Awards (All-ACC, All-American) do not have to correlate all that well with how good players are.

For example, Luke was 2nd-team All-American last season, but I think senior Quinn Cook (merely 2nd-team All-ACC) was clearly a better player because he played both ends of the court. Highly efficient offense PLUS defense wins.

I think Wendell will be one of the 10 best players in the country, based on my own scouting and the scouting of some folks that I trust. My only concern is that he might be a better center than a power forward, and so to maximize his time spent playing his best position, we'll need Javin or Jack to step up.

Really? You think Quinn was CLEARLY a better player than Luke Kennard? There is no way that's true. I know Quinn was a really good defender and a knock down shooter his senior year, but Luke should have been the ACC POY and first team AA over Jackson last year. He was the best shooting guard in the country, and is going to be a mid first round draft pick. Quinn was no where close to that, and I LOVE Quinn Cook.

I know Luke didn't stay all four years so we want to prop up the four year guys, but Luke Kennard just had one of the greatest offensive seasons any Duke player has ever had, especially from an efficiency standpoint.

Duval is also going to be in the running for first team all ACC, I think, which corresponds to someone else's post.

flyingdutchdevil
05-26-2017, 01:57 PM
Really? You think Quinn was CLEARLY a better player than Luke Kennard? There is no way that's true. I know Quinn was a really good defender and a knock down shooter his senior year, but Luke should have been the ACC POY and first team AA over Jackson last year. He was the best shooting guard in the country, and is going to be a mid first round draft pick. Quinn was no where close to that, and I LOVE Quinn Cook.

I know Luke didn't stay all four years so we want to prop up the four year guys, but Luke Kennard just had one of the greatest offensive seasons any Duke player has ever had, especially from an efficiency standpoint.

Duval is also going to be in the running for first team all ACC, I think, which corresponds to someone else's post.

Luke is an offensive genius, but he's also a defensive nightmare. Cook had really good offense, exceptional defense during his senior year, and some of the best leadership under Coach K. I'd take Senior Cook over Sophomore Kennard any day of the week and twice on Sunday.

As for Duval, he may be in the running - like Bolden, Carter, Trent, and Allen are - but I'd argue that he's got the third likeliest chance to be on the 1st team outside of Allen and Carter.

kAzE
05-26-2017, 02:10 PM
Luke is an offensive genius, but he's also a defensive nightmare. Cook had really good offense, exceptional defense during his senior year, and some of the best leadership under Coach K. I'd take Senior Cook over Sophomore Kennard any day of the week and twice on Sunday.

As for Duval, he may be in the running - like Bolden, Carter, Trent, and Allen are - but I'd argue that he's got the third likeliest chance to be on the 1st team outside of Allen and Carter.

First of all, I love Quinn Cook, and IMO, he was the 2nd best player on a national championship team. That said, I'm going with Dukehky on this one . . . without Luke, last year's team would have probably lost 3-4 more games than they did, and probably would have been more like a 6 seed. He was that good. Quinn was excellent his senior year, but that team had a killer point guard and a dominant scoring big man to draw defenders in to the paint. Quinn was more of a complimentary ball handler when Tyus was on the floor, and many of his 3 pointers were wide open shots. Luke didn't have those luxuries, was the focal point of the offense/opposing defense, and still put up incredibly efficient numbers.

He was not a good defender, but I think folks around here are blowing that aspect of his game up a little too harshly. Yes, he could have tried harder on defense, but the guy was playing 38+ minutes every game and carrying the team on offense. He also played every single game. It's not hard to figure out why he was conserving energy on D. Cut him some slack.

If we're comparing Luke Kennard and Quinn Cook, one is clearly more talented by a LOT, and I'll take the superior talent any day.

scottdude8
05-26-2017, 02:36 PM
Mo Wagner should be higher on this list. I had to say it. Now I'll shut up about Michigan for a couple days.

Olympic Fan
05-26-2017, 03:07 PM
Okay, no major problems with the list ... although a few minor disagreements.

-- His rationale for Grayson at No. 1 is fair. He explains it well -- essentially, take Grayson's 2016 season and have no incidents and no health issues and he's a strong No. 1 -- as Gasaway had him last year. The only thing I didn't like was his comment about "repeated tripping incidents" -- obviously Grayson has had three tripping incidents, but in the context of Gasaway's comments, it made it sound like Grayson had those repeated incidents after Gasaway picked him No. 1 in 2017 -- he had one such incident last year. Poorly written.

-- The inclusion of freshmen is rational. In this era of OAD, freshmen players obviously have a HUGE role in college basketball. Sure, you're taking a chance projecting the transition from high school to college ball, but on the whole prep rankings have been a very good guide over the last few years. Gasaway's freshmen are ranked exactly like ESPN's prep rankings with one exception. Mo Bamba (No. 3 among ESPN's preps) should be ranked between Ayton and Carter ... instead, he's No. 18 (behind Duval). But Porter at No. 2 overall, Ayton at No. 7, Carter at No. 10 and Duval at No. 15 all seem like reasonable placements.

-- I agree that Bridges is too low by three or four places.

-- Joel Berry ... a difficult ranking. I was curious that Gasaway called him an "efficient" scorer when he's not -- he's a poor 42.6 percent shooter, a so-so .383 percent on 230 3-point attempts and even a decent, but not exceptional 77.4 percent from the foul line. His assists are very low for a point guard (3.6 a game) and his assist/turnover rate is a mediocre 1.9 to 1.

In terms of offensive efficiency, Matt Farrell is significantly better in every category. Heck, Clemson's Sheldon Mitchell doesn't score quite as much, but he's significantly more efficient than Berry in almost every offensive category. So why is Berry as high as No. 19 nationally?

Well, I assume it's because Berry was the heart and soul of the 2017 national champs. He's not a great player, but he's a great floor leader on a talented team. But how does that translate to a non-contending team (which UNC will be next season)? Losing that massive and effective front line and top scorer Justin Jackson changes everything. Berry has to become the team's first scoring option -- and he's NOT a very efficient offensive player. If you could trade him to Arizona or Kansas or Michigan State for next season, I could see Berry as a top 5 player going into next year. Gasaway has Duval at No. 15 and Berry No. 19 -- but, be honest, who would do a better job of leading Duke next season -- freshman Duval or senior Berry?

That said, I think Gasaway's relative ranking of the two points guards is right -- Duval will be quarterbacking a contending team ... Berry will be trying to carry a far less relevant team.

Still, it's probably the most interesting player ranking in his top 25.

MrPoon
05-26-2017, 03:20 PM
These lists are classic click bait... and I do it every time!
For a list that is heavy on incoming freshman, it is really interesting that Kentucky's #1 class has no players on it. They only have one player on this list and he's that odd case of came last year but didn't play (I'm not going to try and spell his name based on memory).