2017 NBA Finals

[pfrduke]

The threematch deserves its own thread, plus a poll!

[luburch]

Rooting for the Cavs, but I think the Warriors simply have too much.

[chriso]

Rooting for the Cavs, but I think the Warriors simply have too much.

I think LeBron wills the Cavs to the title. Guy is a beast.

[flyingdutchdevil]

Rooting for the Cavs, but I think the Warriors simply have too much.

Yeah. I think this too. Lebron will need to play like Lebron and Kyrie/Love/[JR/Frye/Williams] will have to have great games for at least half of he games.

This will be an amazing series.

[chriso]

Yeah. I think this too. Lebron will need to play like Lebron and Kyrie/Love/[JR/Frye/Williams] will have to have great games for at least half of he games.

This will be an amazing series.

Agreed! Clash of the titans. :)

[Troublemaker]

Yeah. I think this too. Lebron will need to play like Lebron and Kyrie/Love/[JR/Frye/Williams] will have to have great games for at least half of he games.

They would additionally need one of GSW's stars to have a bad series and be a goat, imo.

Picked GSW in 6. Would've picked a sweep prior to the playoffs.

[budwom]

you never know when Curry is apt to tweak an ankle or something...

[LasVegas]

If the warriors wouldn't of added yet another superstar, I would have said the cavs in 4. But Lebron is loose. All the pressure is on GSW. They SHOULD win with that roster. Heck, they should sweep with that roster. But LBJ is playing the best basketball of his career. Kyrie is better than last year and Love has flippped a switch in the playoffs. With all that said, I'm taking the cavs in 6.
LBJ is good for at least 2 wins by himself and I think the supporting cast can come up with another 2. Defend the LAND!

[NM Duke Fan]

Cavs in 7. The tremendous trio of James, Irving, Love will just tip the scales, they all are playing better than last year, while Curry has not been doing so overall. And the Cavs are always physical with him. He also is a bit injury prone. A big key is how do Kyrie's ankles hold up. A key if it happens: Durant will vanish during one critical game.

[Troublemaker]

If the warriors wouldn't of added yet another superstar, I would have said the cavs in 4. But Lebron is loose. All the pressure is on GSW. They SHOULD win with that roster. Heck, they should sweep with that roster. But LBJ is playing the best basketball of his career. Kyrie is better than last year and Love has flippped a switch in the playoffs. With all that said, I'm taking the cavs in 6.
LBJ is good for at least 2 wins by himself and I think the supporting cast can come up with another 2. Defend the LAND!

Will be rooting for your Cavs, Vegas.

It would be amazing for Cleveland to go back-to-back by beating the greatest team of all-time two years in a row.

[flyingdutchdevil]

They would additionally need one of GSW's stars to have a bad series and be a goat, imo.

Picked GSW in 6. Would've picked a sweep prior to the playoffs.

GSW holds the wildcards. Curry can get locked up again by the Cavs. Or Draymond could do some Draymond things.

I'm expecting LBJ to average 35/10/8 for the series and Kyrie to have at least one 40+ game. I'm also expecting Love to get shut down.

[kAzE]

Absolutely rooting for the Cavs, but I just don't think they have the defense to stop the Warriors. They would need an injury/illness/suspension for KD, Steph, or Draymond to pull off the upset.

This Warriors team is the best basketball team I've ever seen. Period.

[fraggler]

My heart wants to say Cavs in 6, but my head says GS in 6. Unless some weird shenanigans happens (injury or suspension on either side), I think GS just has the better team offensively and defensively. Then again, they do seem to be a little fragile mentally, and the Cavs are on a roll (not that GS isn't as well). If the Cavs can come together defensively even more (would have been easier if Bogut hadn't broken his leg a minute into his Cavs career), and Kevin Love keeps his play up, then they could repeat. A bit of a toss up as I could see either team win it. But the Cavs have Kyrie (and Dahntay) and GS has Green (my least favorite player, ever), so go Cavs!

[kAzE]

If the Spurs had been whole and given the Warriors a competitive 7 game series, I could see the Cavs maybe pulling the upset, but not when the Warriors have played 12 games in the past month and are fully rested and healthy. They played 5 extra games up to this point last year, including a grueling 7 game series against the Thunder in the conference finals, and the Cavs still needed a Draymond Green suspension to get back momentum in the series.

I don't think the Warriors are going to lose this one. They also have the chip on their shoulder from losing last year. They will take care of business, and this probably will go down as one of the most predictable NBA playoffs ever.

[dukelifer]

Cavs need to win game 1 to have a chance. Warriors are very tough but the Cavs are fully capable of staying close and then anything can happen. But I think the first game will be very telling.

[DukieInBrasil]

I'm pulling for the Cavs to win (Kyrie + Dhantay!!!), but i have a feeling that GSW is gonna pull this one out. GSW added one of the best players in the game to their roster and the Cavs will have a healthy K-Love. Other than that the two teams are very similar to last year, which GSW would have won if Draymond hadn't been a total fool.
On paper at least, it seems GSW has too many weapons: Curry, Thompson, Durant and Green are all either among the best players in the NBA at their position or the best. OTOH, the Cavs' big 3 are all playing excellent basketball at the same time.
Iguodala is an excellent defender, but i don't see him doing too much damage to LBJ, he might slow him down some. Kyrie is a blur, and i don't see how anybody on the GSW roster can really contain him (he's improved even since last year). On the flip side, who do the Cavs have that can guard Curry? KT? Durant?
I don't have any analysis really, but it seems that the Cavs' best shot is that their physicality can overwhelm GSW. GSW's shooting and elite skill at 4 positions has carried them all year, and if the Cavs can't deny those aspects, i don't see how they top GSW.

[LasVegas]

On a side note, this super team stuff has got to go. Now way in heck should a team who went to the finals be able to add a 4th superstar,who is top 5 in the league, for the next season.

[cato]

On a side note, this super team stuff has got to go. Now way in heck should a team who went to the finals be able to add a 4th superstar,who is top 5 in the league, for the next season.

Why not? I like seeing the players have a say in team construction.

[LasVegas]

Why not? I like seeing the players have a say in team construction.

I like parity. It's hard to get invested in the NBA as a whole when there are only 2-3 teams who have a chance to win it. I watched the cavs a lot this year but it was all wasted time. Everyone knew it would be them vs. GSW or maybe the spurs.

[BlueDevilBrowns]

Cleveland wins 4-2.

The Cavs have Lebron and Golden State doesn't.

[mgtr]

Cleveland wins 4-2.

The Cavs have Lebron and Golden State doesn't.

So that would seem to favor Golden State!:D

[Furniture]

Warriors in 6. Reverse jinx?

[elvis14]

I'll be rooting for the GSW and I think they win in 6. I hope Kyrie has a great series anyway. Really like the style of play from Golden State and just can't root for Lebron.

[moonpie23]

just can't root for Lebron.

don't worry...i'll take care of that for you....

[ice-9]

Last year's series felt lucky for the Cavs. Not really the Draymond suspension, though that helped, more on the Black Falcon having a horrible series. If Barnes played like he did the regular season, the Warriors would have beaten the Cavs.

So what did the Warriors do? They replaced the Falcon with Kevin Durant, one of the best players in the league.

I'll be rooting hard for Kyrie, but I've got Warriors winning in 5.

[rsvman]

Warriors in five. Rooting for the Cavs, though.

[dukelifer]

Last year's series felt lucky for the Cavs. Not really the Draymond suspension, though that helped, more on the Black Falcon having a horrible series. If Barnes played like he did the regular season, the Warriors would have beaten the Cavs.

So what did the Warriors do? They replaced the Falcon with Kevin Durant, one of the best players in the league.

I'll be rooting hard for Kyrie, but I've got Warriors winning in 5.

I think people forget that the championship games bring a pressure that affects performance. Not everyone handles pressure well-some rise up and some fail. Steph Curry has struggled in big games and so has Durant. In some ways- Irving plays his best under pressure. And the pressure is off James to deliver a championship to Cleveland. The key is to keep games close so the pressure is there. Game 1 is key. It will set the tone for the series. If the Warriors go off and get big leads - it will be very hard for the Cavs. The Cavs only chance is to play physical D and hope the refs do not call it close. The Cavs bench also needs to be much better. I am just hoping for some competitive games that come down to the last minute.

[BlueDevilBrowns]

Last year's series felt lucky for the Cavs. Not really the Draymond suspension, though that helped, more on the Black Falcon having a horrible series. If Barnes played like he did the regular season, the Warriors would have beaten the Cavs.

So what did the Warriors do? They replaced the Falcon with Kevin Durant, one of the best players in the league.

I'll be rooting hard for Kyrie, but I've got Warriors winning in 5.

And the 2015 NBA finals felt lucky for the Warriors.

They managed to beat Cleveland in 6 games without Love and Kyrie...

If the Cavs were fully healthy that series, Cavs likely win that one, imo.

So I'd say the teams are a lot more evenly matched than most people think.

[LasVegas]

My dream scenario is Lebron pulls off a sweep averaging crazy numbers and cements himself as #1a/1b

[darthur]

On a side note, this super team stuff has got to go. Now way in heck should a team who went to the finals be able to add a 4th superstar,who is top 5 in the league, for the next season.

Geez, double standards much? You are picking Cleveland to beat Golden State but then are saying Golden State needs to be blown up because they are too good and it's unfair. Oh any you're saying Cleveland would sweep GS if it weren't for KD.

Some things to chew on:

- Cleveland sleep walks through the regular season but has been every bit as unfair in the playoffs as GS has been. They have a better record and unlike GS, have never been even remotely challenged in the playoffs before the finals. LeBron in particular has been unfair in the playoffs for far longer than GS ever has been.
- Going into 2015, ESPN experts picked Cleveland to win the championship and GS... to make it to the first round. Not because they were expected to be upset, but because nobody, and I mean nobody, would have said GS's talent was anywhere close to Cleveland's at that time. GS had had 2 all-star selections total since Latrell Sprewell: Curry once, and David Lee once. They became great because (a) they picked up a really good coach, and (b) because a bunch of home-grown talent all exceeded expectations and hit their prime at the same time.
- Cleveland became great because LeBron left a top tier team, allowing them to collect picks that went into Kyrie, Tristan Thompson, and Dion Waiters (traded for JR Smith) all of which were higher picks than any of the homegrown GS stars. Then LeBron came back, and KLove -- widely considered a franchise level player at the time -- joined with the specific intent of creating a super team.
- Yes KD joined an already great team last year, but it was certainly not too different from what KLove did, and the rest of the team built up naturally instead of the LeBron effect where a great team will follow him wherever he goes as people chase rings.

Cleveland (and Miami) fans are the one group of fans who have zero business citing unfairness right now.

[darthur]

- Cleveland became great because LeBron left a top tier team, allowing them to collect picks that went into Kyrie, Tristan Thompson, and Dion Waiters (traded for JR Smith) all of which were higher picks than any of the homegrown GS stars. Then LeBron came back, and KLove -- widely considered a franchise level player at the time -- joined with the specific intent of creating a super team.

Ah oops. I brain-farted I guess and forgot that KLove came to Cleveland via a trade for #1 overall pick, rather than signing. But I do stick by my premise that Cleveland is every bit the super team that GS is, and actually one that came about less naturally and less as a result of savvy front office work.

[LasVegas]

Geez, double standards much? You are picking Cleveland to beat Golden State but then are saying Golden State needs to be blown up because they are too good and it's unfair. Oh any you're saying Cleveland would sweep GS if it weren't for KD.

Some things to chew on:

- Cleveland sleep walks through the regular season but has been every bit as unfair in the playoffs as GS has been. They have a better record and unlike GS, have never been even remotely challenged in the playoffs before the finals. LeBron in particular has been unfair in the playoffs for far longer than GS ever has been.
- Going into 2015, ESPN experts picked Cleveland to win the championship and GS... to make it to the first round. Not because they were expected to be upset, but because nobody, and I mean nobody, would have said GS's talent was anywhere close to Cleveland's at that time. GS had had 2 all-star selections total since Latrell Sprewell: Curry once, and David Lee once. They became great because (a) they picked up a really good coach, and (b) because a bunch of home-grown talent all exceeded expectations and hit their prime at the same time.
- Cleveland became great because LeBron left a top tier team, allowing them to collect picks that went into Kyrie, Tristan Thompson, and Dion Waiters (traded for JR Smith) all of which were higher picks than any of the homegrown GS stars. Then LeBron came back, and KLove -- widely considered a franchise level player at the time -- joined with the specific intent of creating a super team.
- Yes KD joined an already great team last year, but it was certainly not too different from what KLove did, and the rest of the team built up naturally instead of the LeBron effect where a great team will follow him wherever he goes as people chase rings.

Cleveland (and Miami) fans are the one group of fans who have zero business citing unfairness right now.

Double standards? I never said what the cavs did was right in regards to their "super" team. I think you made a big assumption there to base your entire post on. I'm for parity. 100%.

[CDu]

Double standards? I never said what the cavs did was right in regards to their "super" team. I think you made a big assumption there to base your entire post on. I'm for parity. 100%.

So you aren't happy that Cleveland has James, Irving, and Love?

[LasVegas]

So you aren't happy that Cleveland has James, Irving, and Love?

It's a tough situation. Am I happy the cavs are one of the top 2-3 dominating teams? Sure. Am I happy with how it happened? No.

This same situation occurs with the current state of Duke basketball for me. Would I like to have more 3-4 year players that I can follow? Yes. Do I like the one and done model? No. Was I happy Duke won it all in 2015? Yes.

[ice-9]

And the 2015 NBA finals felt lucky for the Warriors.

They managed to beat Cleveland in 6 games without Love and Kyrie...

If the Cavs were fully healthy that series, Cavs likely win that one, imo.

So I'd say the teams are a lot more evenly matched than most people think.

I guess it depends on the POV.

The 2015 Warriors were on track in the regular season to be one of the best teams of all time. They didn't get much hype for it because...c'mon, this was the Golden State Warriors. The 2015 playoffs changed that perception.

In my view, that Cavs team without Love and Kyrie played out of their minds given what they had. Those 6 games were over-performance. If those two Finals teams played 50 games I don't think the Cavs would be able to maintain their 33% win percentage.

Anyway I guess what I'm saying is that I disagree the two teams are evenly matched. The good thing is this is sports and on court results matter more than what the numbers say.

And for the record I put my money on the Cavs last year. But I just don't see KD playing as badly as the Black Falcon this year.

[kshepinthehouse]

I guess it depends on the POV.

The 2015 Warriors were on track in the regular season to be one of the best teams of all time. They didn't get much hype for it because...c'mon, this was the Golden State Warriors. The 2015 playoffs changed that perception.

In my view, that Cavs team without Love and Kyrie played out of their minds given what they had. Those 6 games were over-performance. If those two Finals teams played 50 games I don't think the Cavs would be able to maintain their 33% win percentage.

Anyway I guess what I'm saying is that I disagree the two teams are evenly matched. The good thing is this is sports and on court results matter more than what the numbers say.

And for the record I put my money on the Cavs last year. But I just don't see KD playing as badly as the Black Falcon this year.

If Harrison Barnes could only have hit a couple wide open shots...

[superdave]

Curry averaged 22.6 in the Finals last year, including four games below 20 points and 17 in Game 7. That is 6 ppg off his playoff average last year and 8 off his regular season average.

Was it pressure? Cavs physical defense? Was he banged up?

Lebron averaged 31 in the Finals last season including back to back 41 point showings in elimination games. The prior Finals, he averaged 35.8/11.5/9 with a usage rate of infinity.

Curry has put it all together about once or twice per playoff series. He's just not quite capable to carrying his team every single night in the playoffs. But he does not have too. The issue here is whether GSW has enough on-court chemistry having added Durant and losing Bogut/Barnes to overcome a Cavs team that has been intact for 3 years and Lebron playing at a level we have not seen since Jordan.

If I had to bet, I'd think the Cavs play physical to scare the Warriors off the 3-point line and control the boards. Unless the Warriors can run and gun, Cavs win in 7. My gut tells me to bet on Lebron, and that this GSW team still has some Year 1 superteam chemistry issues (think Heat, Lebron's first year when they lost to the Dirk/Cuban 1-2 punch). But there's very little difference between the two teams.

[NM Duke Fan]

Curry averaged 22.6 in the Finals last year, including four games below 20 points and 17 in Game 7. That is 6 ppg off his playoff average last year and 8 off his regular season average.

Was it pressure? Cavs physical defense? Was he banged up?

Lebron averaged 31 in the Finals last season including back to back 41 point showings in elimination games. The prior Finals, he averaged 35.8/11.5/9 with a usage rate of infinity.

Curry has put it all together about once or twice per playoff series. He's just not quite capable to carrying his team every single night in the playoffs. But he does not have too. The issue here is whether GSW has enough on-court chemistry having added Durant and losing Bogut/Barnes to overcome a Cavs team that has been intact for 3 years and Lebron playing at a level we have not seen since Jordan.

If I had to bet, I'd think the Cavs play physical to scare the Warriors off the 3-point line and control the boards. Unless the Warriors can run and gun, Cavs win in 7. My gut tells me to bet on Lebron, and that this GSW team still has some Year 1 superteam chemistry issues (think Heat, Lebron's first year when they lost to the Dirk/Cuban 1-2 punch). But there's very little difference between the two teams.

That was my prediction as well, Cavs in 7, and due to similiar reasoning. Closely matched teams, but with James even better than last year, Love playing better, Kyrie moving to another level. The main question I have is will they get just enough from the supporting cast to support The Trio, including some better shooting off the bench from Korver. IF, however, Durant plays stellar games with no vanishing act, and Curry does not get overly pushed around, I could see it going the other way. I just feel that Cleveland is a better integrated team overall right now, and with a Trio that is hitting its peak at the right time. We will see...

[kshepinthehouse]

Curry averaged 22.6 in the Finals last year, including four games below 20 points and 17 in Game 7. That is 6 ppg off his playoff average last year and 8 off his regular season average.

Was it pressure? Cavs physical defense? Was he banged up?

Lebron averaged 31 in the Finals last season including back to back 41 point showings in elimination games. The prior Finals, he averaged 35.8/11.5/9 with a usage rate of infinity.

Curry has put it all together about once or twice per playoff series. He's just not quite capable to carrying his team every single night in the playoffs. But he does not have too. The issue here is whether GSW has enough on-court chemistry having added Durant and losing Bogut/Barnes to overcome a Cavs team that has been intact for 3 years and Lebron playing at a level we have not seen since Jordan.

If I had to bet, I'd think the Cavs play physical to scare the Warriors off the 3-point line and control the boards. Unless the Warriors can run and gun, Cavs win in 7. My gut tells me to bet on Lebron, and that this GSW team still has some Year 1 superteam chemistry issues (think Heat, Lebron's first year when they lost to the Dirk/Cuban 1-2 punch). But there's very little difference between the two teams.

Curry was banged up in the finals. When fully healthy Currry is more than capable of leading his team. That is silly. Chemistry issues? 538 has this warriors team elo rating as the second best team of all time. They seem to have chemistry to me.

[LasVegas]

Curry was banged up in the finals. When fully healthy Currry is more than capable of leading his team. That is silly. Chemistry issues? 538 has this warriors team elo rating as the second best team of all time. They seem to have chemistry to me.

The same Elo rating that Nate silver just tore apart in an article because it ALWAYS underestimates the cavs? Yeah, no thanks. The warriors are a great team but 2nd best of ALL TIME? Come on.

I always base my judgements on sports teams with a ratio of 90% eye test and 10% advanced nerd stats.

[darthur]

The same Elo rating that Nate silver just tore apart in an article because it ALWAYS underestimates the cavs? Yeah, no thanks. The warriors are a great team but 2nd best of ALL TIME? Come on.

I always base my judgements on sports teams with a ratio of 90% eye test and 10% advanced nerd stats.

- Huh? Here's the article: https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/lebron-james-destroyed-our-elo-ratings-but-can-he-beat-the-warriors-again/. The main criticism Nate Silver had about ELO was that it was misled by the fact that the Cavs consistently sleepwalk through the regular season. That's hardly tearing it apart, and is relevant only to the Cavs. Of course the Warriors benefited from luck with the Kawhi injury, so yes their rating is inflated too, but not thaaat much.
- This series is very important for the legacy of both the Warriors and LeBron. It's stupid, but it's true. Both teams are dominating the field at unprecedented levels in making it to the finals. But if the Warriors lose, "obviously" they were exposed and are nowhere near as good as all their all-time win records over the last 3 years show. And if the Cavs lose, "obviously" LeBron is not GOAT level as he comes up short against the West yet again. If one team wins convincingly though (say <6 games), yes that team/person will feature prominently in their respective GOAT debates for years to come, like it or not. The narrative around the Warriors right now would already be very very different if just the last minute of 1 game in the finals last year had played out differently.

[LasVegas]

- Huh? Here's the article: https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/lebron-james-destroyed-our-elo-ratings-but-can-he-beat-the-warriors-again/. The main criticism Nate Silver had about ELO was that it was misled by the fact that the Cavs consistently sleepwalk through the regular season. That's hardly tearing it apart, and is relevant only to the Cavs. Of course the Warriors benefited from luck with the Kawhi injury, so yes their rating is inflated too, but not thaaat much.
- This series is very important for the legacy of both the Warriors and LeBron. It's stupid, but it's true. Both teams are dominating the field at unprecedented levels in making it to the finals. But if the Warriors lose, "obviously" they were exposed and are nowhere near as good as all their all-time win records over the last 3 years show. And if the Cavs lose, "obviously" LeBron is not GOAT level as he comes up short against the West yet again. If one team wins convincingly though (say <6 games), yes that team/person will feature prominently in their respective GOAT debates for years to come, like it or not. The narrative around the Warriors right now would already be very very different if just the last minute of 1 game in the finals last year had played out differently.

I took the article completely different. I assumed silver was talking about how the elo ratings turn to goo when discussing teams that perform better in the playoffs. Which happens. The money quote from the article being "Elo doesn’t account for teams SUCH as Cleveland finding a higher “gear” in the playoffs." So it's hardly just relevant to the Cavs. Here is Nate silver discussing that.
"It’s not hard to recall examples of defending champions that lollygagged their way through the regular season, only to show up as the best version of themselves in the playoffs. In 2000-01, Shaquille O’Neal, Kobe Bryant and the Los Angeles Lakers finished with a 56-26 record — better than the Cavs this year, but not by that much — before winning 15 of 16 playoff games and repeating as NBA champion. And Hakeem Olajuwon and the 1994-95 Houston Rockets finished at 47-35 before winning the title despite being the No. 6 seed. In his last season in Miami, James and the 2013-14 Miami Heat had an uninspired regular season, going 54-28. But they made the NBA finals before losing to San Antonio".

I'll stick with my eyes. Kenpom and 538 and everything are great tools. But I trust my eyes more than anything else with a few sprinkles of these systems.

[darthur]

I took the article completely different. I assumed silver was talking about how the elo ratings turn to goo when discussing teams that perform better in the playoffs. Which happens. The money quote from the article being "Elo doesn’t account for teams SUCH as Cleveland finding a higher “gear” in the playoffs." So it's hardly just relevant to the Cavs. Here is Nate silver discussing that.
"It’s not hard to recall examples of defending champions that lollygagged their way through the regular season, only to show up as the best version of themselves in the playoffs. In 2000-01, Shaquille O’Neal, Kobe Bryant and the Los Angeles Lakers finished with a 56-26 record — better than the Cavs this year, but not by that much — before winning 15 of 16 playoff games and repeating as NBA champion. And Hakeem Olajuwon and the 1994-95 Houston Rockets finished at 47-35 before winning the title despite being the No. 6 seed. In his last season in Miami, James and the 2013-14 Miami Heat had an uninspired regular season, going 54-28. But they made the NBA finals before losing to San Antonio".

I'll stick with my eyes. Kenpom and 538 and everything are great tools. But I trust my eyes more than anything else with a few sprinkles of these systems.

I guess I just don't think this phenomenon is as common as you think, and so ELO is still a pretty solid measure. Nate definitely doesn't seem to be throwing up his hands at it or anything either. He does say he trusts Vegas more, which is probably fair. But Vegas isn't good for cross-era comparisons alas and I certainly don't trust my eyes comparing a team now to one I barely remember from 15 years ago or one from even earlier that I never watched at all.

The 95 Rockets were before my time, but both LeBron and the 01 Lakers came from teams that were so good that anything less than a championship is a waste of time to them and so they don't really put much effort into the regular season. Teams like this aren't that common. That Lakers team is legendary for precisely this. LeBron is getting to be that way. Other than that, who else? The Spurs had a reputation for this at their peak but I'm not sure the regular season / playoff difference for them was all that stark. And honestly, maybe this Warriors team is starting down the same road despite their 67 wins. After all, if you exclude the one game right after they clinched the #1 seed where they rested one star all game and all stars in the 4th quarter, they are on a fricking 27 game win streak to close the season! But not sure I can name anyone else who has done the turn-it-on-in-the-playoffs thing in the last 15-20 years.

I will grant you that if you are ranking GOAT teams, this phenomenon would surely become a lot more common. But if the Warriors beat the Cavs, I do think this year's team will be remembered as being in that picture. But so much can change so quickly -- it's sad to see a team be so good all year long and then risk being dismissed if they have one bad stretch at the end. Such is the nature of sports and how we look at them though. :)

[kshepinthehouse]

The same Elo rating that Nate silver just tore apart in an article because it ALWAYS underestimates the cavs? Yeah, no thanks. The warriors are a great team but 2nd best of ALL TIME? Come on.

I always base my judgements on sports teams with a ratio of 90% eye test and 10% advanced nerd stats.

What exactly do your eyes say about the Warriors? Lol

[NM Duke Fan]

http://www.cbssports.com/nba/news/2017-nba-finals-how-cavaliers-will-try-to-slow-down-a-healthy-stephen-curry/

[LasVegas]

I guess I just don't think this phenomenon is as common as you think, and so ELO is still a pretty solid measure. Nate definitely doesn't seem to be throwing up his hands at it or anything either. He does say he trusts Vegas more, which is probably fair. But Vegas isn't good for cross-era comparisons alas and I certainly don't trust my eyes comparing a team now to one I barely remember from 15 years ago or one from even earlier that I never watched at all.

The 95 Rockets were before my time, but both LeBron and the 01 Lakers came from teams that were so good that anything less than a championship is a waste of time to them and so they don't really put much effort into the regular season. Teams like this aren't that common. That Lakers team is legendary for precisely this. LeBron is getting to be that way. Other than that, who else? The Spurs had a reputation for this at their peak but I'm not sure the regular season / playoff difference for them was all that stark. And honestly, maybe this Warriors team is starting down the same road despite their 67 wins. After all, if you exclude the one game right after they clinched the #1 seed where they rested one star all game and all stars in the 4th quarter, they are on a fricking 27 game win streak to close the season! But not sure I can name anyone else who has done the turn-it-on-in-the-playoffs thing in the last 15-20 years.

I will grant you that if you are ranking GOAT teams, this phenomenon would surely become a lot more common. But if the Warriors beat the Cavs, I do think this year's team will be remembered as being in that picture. But so much can change so quickly -- it's sad to see a team be so good all year long and then risk being dismissed if they have one bad stretch at the end. Such is the nature of sports and how we look at them though. :)


What exactly do your eyes say about the Warriors? Lol

I think the warriors are a really really good team. Top 2? No. Are they better than the cavs? Yeah. Would they beat them in a 21 game series? Yeah. I just think the cavs can and will find enough mojo to win this thing. If I had to put a percent on it. I would say cavs win at probably 55% and warriors at 45%. One thing I don't think will happen is the cavs losing in a longgg series. If the warriors take it, I think it will be a beat down.

[Troublemaker]

Double standards? I never said what the cavs did was right in regards to their "super" team. I think you made a big assumption there to base your entire post on. I'm for parity. 100%.


It's a tough situation. Am I happy the cavs are one of the top 2-3 dominating teams? Sure. Am I happy with how it happened? No.

Wait, what did the Cavs do wrong?

As for desiring parity, the NBA is just not the league for you. Historically, it's had much less parity than MLB, NHL, and NFL. Great NBA get assembled, stay together, and dominate. It helps that there is less randomness built into basketball than there is in baseball and hockey. And as for football, they play a 1-and-done tournament compared to the NBA's 7-game series that makes it really hard for an upset to occur. If you're a great team, the league you want to be in is the NBA.

[LasVegas]

Wait, what did the Cavs do wrong?

As for desiring parity, the NBA is just not the league for you. Historically, it's had much less parity than MLB, NHL, and NFL. Great NBA get assembled, stay together, and dominate. It helps that there is less randomness built into basketball than there is in baseball and hockey. And as for football, they play a 1-and-done tournament compared to the NBA's 7-game series that makes it really hard for an upset to occur. If you're a great team, the league you want to be in is the NBA.


And the NBA isn't one of my favorite leagues. I'm a fan of the cavs and that's about it. I probably only watch 50% of the cav games. Sprinkle in some of the west coast teams in there as well. But that's really it. I enjoy the cavs because they are my hometown team and there really isn't much else to it. Trust me, I would much rather watch a local college team or the browns dominate but that's just not the reality in Cleveland.

[DukeTrinity11]

What exactly do your eyes say about the Warriors? Lol
My eyes tell me that the Warriors are a juggernaut on both ends of the floor but haven't been challenged enough to know how to respond when the going gets tough as it almost definitely will in a few games in these NBA Finals.

I also question Curry and Durant's mental makeup and toughness; I truly believe that Kyrie and JR Smith are more "clutch" players who don't get tense and choke in the big moments.

[flyingdutchdevil]

My eyes tell me that the Warriors are a juggernaut on both ends of the floor but haven't been challenged enough to know how to respond when the going gets tough as it almost definitely will in a few games in these NBA Finals.

I also question Curry and Durant's mental makeup and toughness; I truly believe that Kyrie and JR Smith are more "clutch" players who don't get tense and choke in the big moments.

And the Cavs have? I think both teams are completely untested this year, especially in the playoffs. I want the Cavs to win, but the Warriors are such a juggernut. It'll take the Cavs playing a bunch of flawless games to win.

[NSDukeFan]

My eyes tell me that the Warriors are a juggernaut on both ends of the floor but haven't been challenged enough to know how to respond when the going gets tough as it almost definitely will in a few games in these NBA Finals.

I also question Curry and Durant's mental makeup and toughness; I truly believe that Kyrie and JR Smith are more "clutch" players who don't get tense and choke in the big moments.


And the Cavs have? I think both teams are completely untested this year, especially in the playoffs. I want the Cavs to win, but the Warriors are such a juggernut. It'll take the Cavs playing a bunch of flawless games to win.

Neither of these teams have players who have been tested. Talk to me when some of these players have played in a championship series or shown what it takes to win one. Oh, wait. JR Smith is more of a clutch player than Curry or Durant? I'll take the guys who are depended on to produce every game instead of a guy who makes some big shots every once in awhile as the fourth to sixth option on his team.

Is the season over? Nobody has played since last week. Are they going to play anymore this year?

[PackMan97]

I'm confused, this marks the THIRD TRIP IN A ROW to the NBA Finals for both teams (with the record tied at one series win each)....and we are arguing whether or not the teams and/or players are clutch?

[NSDukeFan]

- Huh? Here's the article: https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/lebron-james-destroyed-our-elo-ratings-but-can-he-beat-the-warriors-again/. The main criticism Nate Silver had about ELO was that it was misled by the fact that the Cavs consistently sleepwalk through the regular season. That's hardly tearing it apart, and is relevant only to the Cavs. Of course the Warriors benefited from luck with the Kawhi injury, so yes their rating is inflated too, but not thaaat much.
- This series is very important for the legacy of both the Warriors and LeBron. It's stupid, but it's true. Both teams are dominating the field at unprecedented levels in making it to the finals. But if the Warriors lose, "obviously" they were exposed and are nowhere near as good as all their all-time win records over the last 3 years show. And if the Cavs lose, "obviously" LeBron is not GOAT level as he comes up short against the West yet again. If one team wins convincingly though (say <6 games), yes that team/person will feature prominently in their respective GOAT debates for years to come, like it or not. The narrative around the Warriors right now would already be very very different if just the last minute of 1 game in the finals last year had played out differently.

I don't think it's stupid that a series is very important for the legacy of both teams. Championships are what "legacies " are all about. It might not be the best to change your overall evaluation of players based on how the ball bounces in a game or series but championships trump everything. I think LeBron has put himself in GOAT discussion no matter what happens in this series based on how often he has gotten to the finals and how well he has been playing. I don't think Curry or Durant are anywhere near the same level even if the Warriors win, though maybe you were just talking about their team, in which case I would again agree with you.
I also agree with you that the Cavs flipping the switch in the playoffs is not normal. I don't remember Hakeem's Rockets being thought of as a powerhouse before they won the title and I don't remember Hakeem ever playing as well as he did during those playoff runs. He was something else as a player.

I don't watch every game, so I don't trust my eyes as much as data from all games, realizing that no data system incorporates everything into it.

[kshepinthehouse]

I don't think it's stupid that a series is very important for the legacy of both teams. Championships are what "legacies " are all about. It might not be the best to change your overall evaluation of players based on how the ball bounces in a game or series but championships trump everything. I think LeBron has put himself in GOAT discussion no matter what happens in this series based on how often he has gotten to the finals and how well he has been playing. I don't think Curry or Durant are anywhere near the same level even if the Warriors win, though maybe you were just talking about their team, in which case I would again agree with you.
I also agree with you that the Cavs flipping the switch in the playoffs is not normal. I don't remember Hakeem's Rockets being thought of as a powerhouse before they won the title and I don't remember Hakeem ever playing as well as he did during those playoff runs. He was something else as a player.

I don't watch every game, so I don't trust my eyes as much as data from all games, realizing that no data system incorporates everything into it.

Lebron is definitely one of the greatest of all time, but I disagree that being in the finals a lot is why. He has been in the finals a lot for 2 reasons:

1. And a huge one is because he has always played in the East. Lebron wouldn't have sniffed the finals some of those years if his teams would have been in the West. This is obviously the case because he has also lost a lot in the finals.

2. He went to the finals a lot as the result of free agency. Jordan didn't have the benefit of building a super team through free agency. His Heat team and his latest Cavs team have been to the Finals with a stacked roster. Golden State also has a stacked roster but was mostly grown organically until adding Durant this year. I have a lot more respect for how Curry and Jordan have made it to the finals rather than what Lebron has done. Lebron has had A LOT of help!

[DukieInBrasil]

Lebron is definitely one of the greatest of all time, but I disagree that being in the finals a lot is why. He has been in the finals a lot for 2 reasons:

1. And a huge one is because he has always played in the East. Lebron wouldn't have sniffed the finals some of those years if his teams would have been in the West. This is obviously the case because he has also lost a lot in the finals.

2. He went to the finals a lot as the result of free agency. Jordan didn't have the benefit of building a super team through free agency. His Heat team and his latest Cavs team have been to the Finals with a stacked roster. Golden State also has a stacked roster but was mostly grown organically until adding Durant this year. I have a lot more respect for how Curry and Jordan have made it to the finals rather than what Lebron has done. Lebron has had A LOT of help!

Free agency existed in Jordan's era too. Don't pretend that it didn't. However, the Bulls' main power came from the dynamism of the duo of Jordan (primarily) and Pippen, both of whom were home-grown talents. After them? I guess Rodman was probably the other most influential player they had, and he came from the Pistons, definitely not home-grown and Rodman was definitely free-agent eligible (FAE). Kukoc was a nice complementary player, and he started his NBA career withe Bulls, but he was a star in Europe prior. Kerr came to the Bulls and was FAE. Ron Harper, ditto. Horace Grant was homegrown, as was Stacey King. Beyond them, I don't even know who else on those teams you would consider essential, but the Bulls definitely got lots of their complementary pieces via free agency or FAE players. Their first championship team was largely home grown, but after that they began getting more and more players from other teams.

[kshepinthehouse]

Free agency existed in Jordan's era too. Don't pretend that it didn't. However, the Bulls' main power came from the dynamism of the duo of Jordan (primarily) and Pippen, both of whom were home-grown talents. After them? I guess Rodman was probably the other most influential player they had, and he came from the Pistons, definitely not home-grown and Rodman was definitely free-agent eligible (FAE). Kukoc was a nice complementary player, and he started his NBA career withe Bulls, but he was a star in Europe prior. Kerr came to the Bulls and was FAE. Ron Harper, ditto. Horace Grant was homegrown, as was Stacey King. Beyond them, I don't even know who else on those teams you would consider essential, but the Bulls definitely got lots of their complementary pieces via free agency or FAE players. Their first championship team was largely home grown, but after that they began getting more and more players from other teams.

I was specifically referring to the super team that Lebron Bosh and Wade built. This was unprecedented.

[cato]

I was specifically referring to the super team that Lebron Bosh and Wade built. This was unprecedented.

Because the players played a role in its creation, instead of management?

[kshepinthehouse]

Because the players played a role in its creation, instead of management?

Name a team that was built similarly where 3 of the top free agents if not THE top 3 all decided to sign with the same team at the same time.

[darthur]

I don't think it's stupid that a series is very important for the legacy of both teams. Championships are what "legacies " are all about. It might not be the best to change your overall evaluation of players based on how the ball bounces in a game or series but championships trump everything. I think LeBron has put himself in GOAT discussion no matter what happens in this series based on how often he has gotten to the finals and how well he has been playing. I don't think Curry or Durant are anywhere near the same level even if the Warriors win, though maybe you were just talking about their team, in which case I would again agree with you.
I also agree with you that the Cavs flipping the switch in the playoffs is not normal. I don't remember Hakeem's Rockets being thought of as a powerhouse before they won the title and I don't remember Hakeem ever playing as well as he did during those playoff runs. He was something else as a player.

I don't watch every game, so I don't trust my eyes as much as data from all games, realizing that no data system incorporates everything into it.

I guess what I'm saying is there's a lot of luck that goes into these discussions, and I think that's unfortunate.

Like you, I think LeBron should be somewhere in GOAT discussion regardless of this series, and I think this Warriors teams should be somewhere in there as a team too (definitely not as individuals). I don't like how one lucky/unlucky bounce in one game can change so drastically how we perceive these legacies. I get why we do it (somewhere on TNT, Shaq is saying "rings, Erneh!"), but it still annoys me and feels a little too luck-based if we are talking about "best" players/teams ever. Shrug.

How many people remember Duke 99 for example outside Duke? It's only a matter of time before we forget the insane dominance of that crazy Kentucky team too. But those were incredibly good teams.

[cato]

Name a team that was built similarly where 3 of the top free agents if not THE top 3 all decided to sign with the same team at the same time.

You didn't answer my question. Is your objection to the players helping put together a team? Would you be okay with a team that acquired those players via draft and trade and simple resigned them?

[Troublemaker]

I guess what I'm saying is there's a lot of luck that goes into these discussions, and I think that's unfortunate.

Like you, I think LeBron should be somewhere in GOAT discussion regardless of this series, and I think this Warriors teams should be somewhere in there as a team too (definitely not as individuals). I don't like how one lucky/unlucky bounce in one game can change so drastically how we perceive these legacies. I get why we do it (somewhere on TNT, Shaq is saying "rings, Erneh!"), but it still annoys me and feels a little too luck-based if we are talking about "best" players/teams ever. Shrug.

How many people remember Duke 99 for example outside Duke? It's only a matter of time before we forget the insane dominance of that crazy Kentucky team too. But those were incredibly good teams.

In this case, it wouldn't just be one game, though, and I don't like the comparison to teams that lost in the single-elimination NCAA tourney.

I mean, if the Cavs beat GSW 4 times to win the championship, GSW is NOT the greatest team of all time. (They would still belong in "one of the greatest teams" conversations probably, but they would be eliminated from "greatest" conversations.)

This isn't to say that injuries or suspension can't impact a series. Even though I rooted for the Cavs last season, I recognize that if Green didn't get suspended, the most likely outcome is that GSW ends the series in 5 games. I also believe Curry was playing banged up.

But unless some injury or suspension crops up again, GSW really shouldn't be losing 4 times in 7 games (while holding homecourt advantage for the series) if it's the greatest team of all-time.

[kshepinthehouse]

In this case, it wouldn't just be one game, though, and I don't like the comparison to teams that lost in the single-elimination NCAA tourney.

I mean, if the Cavs beat GSW 4 times to win the championship, GSW is NOT the greatest team of all time. (They would still belong in "one of the greatest teams" conversations probably, but they would be eliminated from "greatest" conversations.)

This isn't to say that injuries or suspension can't impact a series. Even though I rooted for the Cavs last season, I recognize that if Green didn't get suspended, the most likely outcome is that GSW ends the series in 5 games. I also believe Curry was playing banged up.

But unless some injury or suspension crops up again, GSW really shouldn't be losing 4 times in 7 games (while holding homecourt advantage for the series) if it's the greatest team of all-time.

Your analysis is spot on. I agree with all of your points. The difference between 7 game series and a single elimination event is huge!!! In the first 4 games of the Finals last year it was pretty evident who the better team was, even with a banged up Curry. Both teams are even better this year so we will see how they stack up. Talent wise, Golden State is the better team. I hope we have an injury/suspension free finals so we can enjoy some great basketball. I feel like we have been robbed this postseason. Warriors vs Spurs could have been an all time great series 😞

[DukeTrinity11]

Lebron is definitely one of the greatest of all time, but I disagree that being in the finals a lot is why. He has been in the finals a lot for 2 reasons:

1. And a huge one is because he has always played in the East. Lebron wouldn't have sniffed the finals some of those years if his teams would have been in the West. This is obviously the case because he has also lost a lot in the finals.

2. He went to the finals a lot as the result of free agency. Jordan didn't have the benefit of building a super team through free agency. His Heat team and his latest Cavs team have been to the Finals with a stacked roster. Golden State also has a stacked roster but was mostly grown organically until adding Durant this year. I have a lot more respect for how Curry and Jordan have made it to the finals rather than what Lebron has done. Lebron has had A LOT of help!
Why does it matter how a team is assembled? Nearly all teams that make it to the Finals have multiple All-Stars and in the case of the Warriors they have 4.

LeBron has arguably never played with someone as good as Scottie Pippen during these last 7 NBA Finals runs (maybe 2011 Dwayne Wade was as good?) and Dennis Rodman is basically a much better version of what Tristan Thompson is today.

Jordan was getting walloped by the Celtics and Bad Boy Pistons before Scottie came around. It's a team sport and you need a great team to win a championship period.

[kshepinthehouse]

Why does it matter how a team is assembled? Nearly all teams that make it to the Finals have multiple All-Stars and in the case of the Warriors they have 4.

LeBron has arguably never played with someone as good as Scottie Pippen during these last 7 NBA Finals runs (maybe 2011 Dwayne Wade was as good?) and Dennis Rodman is basically a much better version of what Tristan Thompson is today.

Jordan was getting walloped by the Celtics and Bad Boy Pistons before Scottie came around. It's a team sport and you need a great team to win a championship period.

I agree. So let's not make it sound like Lebron has done it single handedly.

[darthur]

In this case, it wouldn't just be one game, though, and I don't like the comparison to teams that lost in the single-elimination NCAA tourney.

I mean, if the Cavs beat GSW 4 times to win the championship, GSW is NOT the greatest team of all time. (They would still belong in "one of the greatest teams" conversations probably, but they would be eliminated from "greatest" conversations.)

What bothers me is the huge distinction we place between winning in 7 and losing in 7.

To me, these scenarios really are very very close and if a series goes to 7 games, it means the outcome could easily have gone either way. Last year, I think luck played a non-trivial role in GS losing to Cleveland and an equally non-trivial role in GS beating OKC. The legacy of the team changes so much in each of the 3 different outcomes but it's all so close in reality.

I do agree that 7-game series often are not close so maybe you are right to question my NCAA tourney comparison but meh. Not worth debating though either way. Either way, I also definitely don't want to get into a debate of where this team places in the overall pantheon since (a) I'm biased, and (b) we risk looking really really dumb based on how the next couple weeks play out. :)

[Troublemaker]

What bothers me is the huge distinction we place between winning in 7 and losing in 7.

To me, these scenarios really are very very close and if a series goes to 7 games, it means the outcome could easily have gone either way. Last year, I think luck played a non-trivial role in GS losing to Cleveland and an equally non-trivial role in GS beating OKC. The legacy of the team changes so much in each of the 3 different outcomes but it's all so close in reality.

I definitely agree with you there, but since the context of the discussion is GOAT status, I would say this healthy GSW team shouldn't be playing a 7-games series that "could go either way," win or lose, if it's the GOAT. Show me something here by playing a great Finals. This Cavs team shouldn't be able to guard GSW at all.

On that note, I'm surprised nobody has picked GSW to sweep. I still think it's on the table despite how good the Cavs have looked.

[rsvman]

....
On that note, I'm surprised nobody has picked GSW to sweep. I still think it's on the table despite how good the Cavs have looked.

I thought hard about it. Ultimately, I decided that LeBron + Kyrie would mean that the Cavs would likely take one game.

[cato]

I definitely agree with you there, but since the context of the discussion is GOAT status, I would say this healthy GSW team shouldn't be playing a 7-games series that "could go either way," win or lose, if it's the GOAT. Show me something here by playing a great Finals. This Cavs team shouldn't be able to guard GSW at all.

On that note, I'm surprised nobody has picked GSW to sweep. I still think it's on the table despite how good the Cavs have looked.

LeBron has not been swept in a decade. He is much better today, and his team is also much better.

I would be shocked if LeBron and Kyrie were swept.

[LasVegas]

LeBron has not been swept in a decade. He is much better today, and his team is also much better.

I would be shocked if LeBron and Kyrie were swept.

I'll take it a step further and say I'll be surprised if the cavs don't at least win 2 games. I think this is a guaranteed 6-7 game series.

[NM Duke Fan]

I'll take it a step further and say I'll be surprised if the cavs don't at least win 2 games. I think this is a guaranteed 6-7 game series.

Most of you will quite disagree, but I will take it even another step further, and state that I will not be shocked if it is Cavs leading 3-1 after 4 games . To me they are pretty evenly matched teams, but if a game is extremely close in GS in the first two, my money would be on Kyrie and/or LeBron pulling it off.

[superdave]

Curry was banged up in the finals. When fully healthy Currry is more than capable of leading his team. That is silly. Chemistry issues? 538 has this warriors team elo rating as the second best team of all time. They seem to have chemistry to me.

President Hillary agrees with 538's Finals assessment....

Juuuust kidding.

GSW can get going, but they dont seem to have been able to keep it going for multiple game stretches in the Finals vs the Cavs. Is that a chemistry issue? Also, Curry injury excuses are lame. Everyone is banged up and tired 100 games in. And he's got a lot less mileage than Lebron. Curry has had a very lucky run to avoid most Western conference opponents at full strength the last few years. Let's simmer down on crowning them the second greatest team ever for a few years.

[darthur]

President Hillary agrees with 538's Finals assessment...

Juuuust kidding.

For the record, 538 actually came out of the election looking pretty good again IMO -- they gave Clinton an edge but were one of the few polling sites to say the election was still very much up in the air. One article that looks really, really dumb in retrospect:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/whats-wrong-with-538_us_581ffe18e4b0334571e09e74

It railed on 538 for giving Clinton only a 64.5% chance of winning, when they were giving her a 98% chance. Oops.

PS: I'm disappointed that nobody has quoted Memphis coach Fizdale's awesome line "take that for data!" in any of these analytics discussion. :)

[JNort]

Stephen A. has picked the Warriors to win this year, so naturally that means the Cavs are gonna pull it out.


http://dailysnark.com/stephen-smith-whos-gotten-every-single-finals-prediction-since-2011-wrong-makes-pick/

[Billy Dat]

I just read through the thread...good stuff.

No one brought up the absence of Steve Kerr. The Warriors have been fine without him, but haven't been pushed at all. I wonder if, in a pinch, Mike Brown will push the right buttons?

The Cavs also have better continuity with their roster, and probably better depth.

Kevin Love has looked fantastic in the playoffs. The Cavs are finally operating with all 3 stars healthy and having definitive roles.

The Warriors have Durant - oh yee gods.

I am rooting hard for Cleveland. Most pundits think Warriors in less than 7. I feel like Cleveland is going to find a way.

Here's Zach Lowe's finals preview
http://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/19500294/zach-lowe-2017-nba-finals-preview-prediction-golden-state-warriors-vs-cleveland-cavaliers

[kshepinthehouse]

President Hillary agrees with 538's Finals assessment...

Juuuust kidding.

GSW can get going, but they dont seem to have been able to keep it going for multiple game stretches in the Finals vs the Cavs. Is that a chemistry issue? Also, Curry injury excuses are lame. Everyone is banged up and tired 100 games in. And he's got a lot less mileage than Lebron. Curry has had a very lucky run to avoid most Western conference opponents at full strength the last few years. Let's simmer down on crowning them the second greatest team ever for a few years.

???? They made the Cavs look silly 3 out of 4 games last year until Draymond got suspended. Curry actually was injured last year, it wasn't being banged up. He sprained his MCL earlier in the playoffs and never was quite the same.

[LasVegas]

???? They made the Cavs look silly 3 out of 4 games last year until Draymond got suspended. Curry actually was injured last year, it wasn't being banged up. He sprained his MCL earlier in the playoffs and never was quite the same.

Not directed at you specifically but.....I'm just tired of all the excuses. Cav fans make them for 2015 and warrior fans make them for 2016. Excuses everywhere. It's exhausting. I only hope this series is somehow won without any excuses being possible to defend the loser. (Which is impossible)

[CDu]

Not directed at you specifically but...I'm just tired of all the excuses. Cav fans make them for 2015 and warrior fans make them for 2016. Excuses everywhere. It's exhausting. I only hope this series is somehow won without any excuses being possible to defend the loser. (Which is impossible)

But significant injuries do matter. Obviously the 2015 Cavs were compromised with no Love and no Irving. That's not an excuse. That is reality. The 2016 Warriors were compromised (less so, but still compromised) with the MCL sprain for Curry and the knee injury to Bogut in game 5. That's not an excuse. It is reality. I mean, you yourself were talking about the injury to Leonard in the Warriors/Spurs series being THE story. Again - the injury to Leonard changed that series. Not an excuse, just reality.

It would be fabulous if the two teams had faced in the Finals fully healthy both times. But they didn't. The Warriors didn't beat a full-strength Cavs team and the Cavs didn't beat a full-strength Warriors team. Hopefully both teams go injury free in this series.

[dukelifer]

But significant injuries do matter. Obviously the 2015 Cavs were compromised with no Love and no Irving. That's not an excuse. That is reality. The 2016 Warriors were compromised (less so, but still compromised) with the MCL sprain for Curry and the knee injury to Bogut in game 5. That's not an excuse. It is reality. I mean, you yourself were talking about the injury to Leonard in the Warriors/Spurs series being THE story. Again - the injury to Leonard changed that series. Not an excuse, just reality.

It would be fabulous if the two teams had faced in the Finals fully healthy both times. But they didn't. The Warriors didn't beat a full-strength Cavs team and the Cavs didn't beat a full-strength Warriors team. Hopefully both teams go injury free in this series.
I think injuries will play a role here I am afraid. It seems to be the theme of this playoffs. Rondo, Lowrey, Thomas, Griffin, Leonard all were injured or out and that changed the playoffs. We shall see but I suspect someone is not going to be available after game 1 or 2.

[Dr. Rosenrosen]

I think injuries will play a role here I am afraid. It seems to be the theme of this playoffs. Rondo, Lowrey, Thomas, Griffin, Leonard all were injured or out and that changed the playoffs. We shall see but I suspect someone is not going to be available after game 1 or 2.
That's quite an ominous prediction. Is Tonya Harding going to be in attendance at one of these games?

[Troublemaker]

NBA Finals start tonight. Here are the picks from ESPN "experts" (http://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/19473820/2017-nba-finals-expert-predictions-golden-state-warriors-cleveland-cavaliers-finals-matchup). Collectively, they believe in the Cavs less than DBR posters. Just eyeballing, it's probably about 85% of their experts who have picked GSW. In our poll, only about 60% of DBR posters picked GSW.

It's been a long wait for the Finals but this basketball fan is pretty excited. Hoping for a long series at least.

[LasVegas]

So I think the cavs drop this one tonight by at least 10 points and then come back and steal game 2. I just don't see the warriors losing game 1 at home

[RepoMan]

Really surprised at all the people who pick GS in 6. Hard for me to imagine Lebron going out at home under those circumstances.

[moonpie23]

is Kerr a go for tonight?

[Ichabod Drain]

So I think the cavs drop this one tonight by at least 10 points and then come back and steal game 2. I just don't see the warriors losing game 1 at home

Lebron coming off rest is pretty amazing. Also the Warriors would have dropped game 1 at home vs the Spurs if Sensei Draymond hadn't told Zaza to sweep the leg.

That said it's going be really difficult for the Cavs to steal one at Oracle.

[LasVegas]

Lebron coming off rest is pretty amazing. Also the Warriors would have dropped game 1 at home vs the Spurs if Sensei Draymond hadn't told Zaza to sweep the leg.

That said it's going be really difficult for the Cavs to steal one at Oracle.

Good points but my gut is telling me the warriors will be more than ready. I think the cavs need to steal at least one of the first 2 to have a chance here and I think they will .

[JasonEvans]

Really surprised at all the people who pick GS in 6. Hard for me to imagine Lebron going out at home under those circumstances.

Yeah, I went with Warriors in 7. I think Warriors in 6 -- a scenario where the teams are evenly matched enough so that it is a long series but also a scenario where Lebron loses the clinching game on his home floor -- is highly unlikely.

Meanwhile, I think rust could be the huge under-reported factor in tonight's game. The Warriors have not played in 10 days. The Cavs have not played in 7 days. I know everyone has been practicing and attempting to simulate game circumstances, but nothing compares to actual game action and these players have not had a break like this since September. I actually really like the Cavs chances tonight as they may have a bit less rust and a fully rested Lebron is a terrifying thing!

-Jason "I sorta want to be proven wrong and see LeBron and company win... just to show Durant that going to the super team wouldn't get him an easy ring" Evans

[Troublemaker]

Lebron coming off rest is pretty amazing. Also the Warriors would have dropped game 1 at home vs the Spurs if Sensei Draymond hadn't told Zaza to sweep the leg.


Good points but my gut is telling me the warriors will be more than ready. I think the cavs need to steal at least one of the first 2 to have a chance here and I think they will .



Meanwhile, I think rust could be the huge under-reported factor in tonight's game. The Warriors have not played in 10 days. The Cavs have not played in 7 days. I know everyone has been practicing and attempting to simulate game circumstances, but nothing compares to actual game action and these players have not had a break like this since September. I actually really like the Cavs chances tonight as they may have a bit less rust and a fully rested Lebron is a terrifying thing!

Yeah I've noticed what Ichabod has noticed, too. It's only anecdotal, but the Cavs seem to somehow not be rusty coming off long rests, and that's part of the reason why I picked GSW in 6. I think Cleveland will win Games 1 and 4. I'm also just in general rooting for the Cavs and really hope they win tonight. I'm not confident in a long series if they can't grab the W tonight.

[kshepinthehouse]

Really surprised at all the people who pick GS in 6. Hard for me to imagine Lebron going out at home under those circumstances.

He can't guard everyone.

[LasVegas]

He can't guard everyone.

How dare you underestimate The King. #DefendTheLand

[moonpie23]

jitters, missed shots, big dunks on both sides so far...


24-24

[BigZ]

Lebron playing no defense, just letting Durant blow by him

[Troublemaker]

The wrong team is winning the offensive rebounding battle right now if we want a competitive series

Still, this is fun so far. Great atmosphere.

[LasVegas]

Cavs rebound and they are up by 5-10. Weird stuff. The crowd is into it big time.

And the cavs can't buy a call in this 2nd quarter so far......warriors being physical and getting away with it.

[dukelifer]

The wrong team is winning the offensive rebounding battle right now if we want a competitive series

Still, this is fun so far. Great atmosphere.

Cav's bench is giving them little. Cavs in a bit of trouble. Need to keep it close. Must say that Durant is no Harrison Barnes and that is not good for the Cavs.

[Duke79UNLV77]

The Cavs' efforts to stop Durant on the break looks like they've been studying film from our losses.

[moonpie23]

as long as the refs allow durant to step out of bounds and carry the ball without calling him......it's gonna be tough

[LasVegas]

The Cavs' efforts to stop Durant on the break looks like they've been studying film from our losses.

Lol this is good.

I think the cavs have to be happy so far only down
8 with giving up so many O rebounds.

[Duke79UNLV77]

Korver has missed 3 wide open 3's. They can't have that. If he made 2 of those, which he should given how open they were and how good a shooter he is, it would be a 1 possession game.

[kshepinthehouse]

Cavs rebound and they are up by 5-10. Weird stuff. The crowd is into it big time.

And the cavs can't buy a call in this 2nd quarter so far...warriors being physical and getting away with it.

Funny. Looks to me like GS is toying with the Cavs. Warriors are a couple missed layups away from blowing them out in the first half.

[LasVegas]

Funny. Looks to me like GS is toying with the Cavs. Warriors are a couple missed layups away from blowing them out in the first half.

And the cavs are a couple of wide open threes and rebounds from being up. (We can do this all night if you want). If and buts....

[sagegrouse]

Ky-RIEEEE!
Four-point playeeee!
Hee-Hee!

[kshepinthehouse]

And the cavs are a couple of wide open threes and rebounds from being up. (We can do this all night if you want). If and buts...

Right so what's the score?

[LasVegas]

Right so what's the score?

What are you trying to accomplish here? This isn't some drunk debate at a bar.

You directly quoted me and addressed me. I said yeah if and buts yada yada, then you say scoreboard? Sorry man, I don't get into debates like that. Warriors are a few ifs from blowing the lid off this things and the cavs are a few ifs from having the lead.

[BigZ]

Tristian Thompson would be a nobody if he was on an average team.

[LasVegas]

Cavs look out of sorts here. I thought they would lose this one but didn't think they wouldn't be able to grab a rebound or not turn the ball over. Game 2 will be very very interesting......

[dukelifer]

Cavs look out of sorts here. I thought they would lose this one but didn't think they wouldn't be able to grab a rebound or not turn the ball over. Game 2 will be very very interesting...

Cavs can't defend them when they are rested. Too many weapons.

[rsvman]

Getting rid of HWMNBN in favor of Durant is looking pretty genius at this point.

[BigZ]

Getting rid of HWMNBN in favor of Durant is looking pretty genius at this point.

Is it genius if it's obvious ?

[duke96]

It's definitely just not fair ....

[kshepinthehouse]

Cavs look out of sorts here. I thought they would lose this one but didn't think they wouldn't be able to grab a rebound or not turn the ball over. Game 2 will be very very interesting...

Warriors are better offensively and defensively. This will be a tough series for the Cavs.

[LasVegas]

Warriors are better offensively and defensively. This will be a tough series for the Cavs.

I don't think all hope is lost. I still think the cavs could win the series but game 2 is a must win.
It's just hard to beat any time that has assembled 4 all stars that fit very well together. A tallllll task.

[kshepinthehouse]

I don't think all hope is lost. I still think the cavs could win the series but game 2 is a must win.
It's just hard to beat any time that has assembled 4 all stars that fit very well together. A tallllll task.

The Warriors all stars happen to be better defenders as well.

[darthur]

I don't think all hope is lost. I still think the cavs could win the series but game 2 is a must win.
It's just hard to beat any time that has assembled 4 all stars that fit very well together. A tallllll task.

I'm not losing hope at all while watching this, but I have different goals than you. :)

A few things here to keep in mind:

- Golden State has looked 100% completely locked in almost all game. Even in the NBA finals, it's hard to maintain that all game and likely can't do it every time.
- Cleveland lost its poise when it started running with GS at one point (3rd quarter?). I doubt that'll happen often.
- GS has almost no turnovers. Turnovers are a weakness for them and I doubt that'll keep up consistently.
- After even 2 games last year, this series looked like it would be GS rolling. Obviously it didn't turn out that way. Lots of time for adjustments and Cleveland could definitely stand to have some of those.

Still, this is very much the start GS was hoping for.

[kshepinthehouse]

I'm not losing hope at all while watching this, but I have different goals than you. :)

A few things here to keep in mind though:

- Golden State has looked 100% completely locked in almost all game. Even in the NBA finals, it's hard to maintain that all game and likely can't do it every time.
- Cleveland lost its poise when it started running with GS at one point (3rd quarter?). I doubt that'll happen often.
- GS has almost no turnovers. Turnovers are a weakness for them and I doubt that'll keep up consistently.
- After even 2 games last year, this series looked like it would be GS rolling. Obviously it didn't turn out that way. Lots of time for adjustments and Cleveland could definitely stand to have some of those.

Still, this is very much the start GS was hoping for.

With no injury or suspension I see GS doing what it does best. It won 3/4 last year to start. Too many factors are in GS's favor for the Cavs to overcome.

[CDu]

With no injury or suspension I see GS doing what it does best. It won 3/4 last year to start. Too many factors are in GS's favor for the Cavs to overcome.

Don't discount the potential impact of Dahntay Jones entering the game soon.

[Troublemaker]

The Warriors all stars happen to be better defenders as well.

Yeah, in addition to having an all-time great offense, the Warriors probably have the best defense in the NBA, too. So many strips, deflections, and interceptions. The Cavs have 20 turnovers.

[dukelifer]

Yeah, in addition to having an all-time great offense, the Warriors probably have the best defense in the NBA, too. So many strips and deflections. The Cavs have 20 turnovers.

Doesn't look good for the Cavs- but nothing interesting until the first team loses at home. Unfortunately, another boring playoff game.

[Troublemaker]

Doesn't look good for the Cavs- but nothing interesting until the first team loses at home. Unfortunately, another boring playoff game.

I don't think a 3-0 lead would be too interesting :-)

[Troublemaker]

I'm not losing hope at all while watching this, but I have different goals than you. :)

A few things here to keep in mind:

- Golden State has looked 100% completely locked in almost all game. Even in the NBA finals, it's hard to maintain that all game and likely can't do it every time.
- Cleveland lost its poise when it started running with GS at one point (3rd quarter?). I doubt that'll happen often.
- GS has almost no turnovers. Turnovers are a weakness for them and I doubt that'll keep up consistently.
- After even 2 games last year, this series looked like it would be GS rolling. Obviously it didn't turn out that way. Lots of time for adjustments and Cleveland could definitely stand to have some of those.

Still, this is very much the start GS was hoping for.

It's weird, but I would actually prefer you to be boastful and arrogant instead of being level-headed and downplaying your Warriors most of the time.

[duke4ever19]

Doesn't look good for the Cavs- but nothing interesting until the first team loses at home. Unfortunately, another boring playoff game.

At least the first quarter was competitive.

The amount of blowout wins this playoffs seems rather high. I wouldn't be surprised if this year's playoffs has the highest occurrence of win margins of at least 12-13 points and higher in NBA history.

Even some teams that lost their series were getting some of their wins in blowout fashion. The Mil. Bucks won their two lone games against the Raptors in blowouts. The Rockets also won their two games against the Spurs in blowouts. The Boston vs. Washington matchup had several blowouts by both teams. Of course, both the Warriors and Cavs accounted for a lot of blowout victories which I think solidifies this year's playoffs as the least competitive (margin of victory-wise) I can remember.

[darthur]

It's weird, but I would actually prefer you to be boastful and arrogant instead of being level-headed and downplaying your Warriors most of the time.

Ra ra! LeBron, Kyrie, and the entire state of Cleveland just got exposed!! Steph is GOAT, KD is 2nd GOAT, Draymond is GOAT defender and has never done anything wrong. The team is GOAT team in all sports evar. Series is over. Actually the series was over when the season began!!

There. Is that better? I love them Warriors but talking trash not really my thing. Also, I'm not risking anything with a jinx on this team. :)

[Edouble]

I've seen enough. Just voted for Cavs in 6.

[moonpie23]

I've seen enough. Just voted for Cavs in 6.

can we get a "like" button please?

[Indoor66]

I've seen enough. Just voted for Cavs in 6.

Join those of us who voted W's in 6 before the series started. 😊😎

[kAzE]

This Warriors team is the most talented NBA team ever. Anybody disagree?

[Troublemaker]

Ra ra! LeBron, Kyrie, and the entire state of Cleveland just got exposed!! Steph is GOAT, KD is 2nd GOAT, Draymond is GOAT defender and has never done anything wrong. The team is GOAT team in all sports evar. Series is over. Actually the series was over when the season began!!

There. Is that better? I love them Warriors but talking trash not really my thing. Also, I'm not risking anything with a jinx on this team. :)

Haha, good attempt, and you're a good sport. I suppose I can identify with being overly nervous for one of my teams. It's just gonna be weird if GSW finishes a dominant, 16-0 postseason (and that's for sure what they're aiming for), and we'll have a record of you being concerned about the Spurs second-stringers.

[NM Duke Fan]

This Warriors team is the most talented NBA team ever. Anybody disagree?

I don't watch enough NBA any longer to have a firm opinion. I hesitate to agree. Perhaps via living in Socal during the Laker's Showtime era I am also prejudiced, since I got to see quite a bit of action back then, and those teams were amazingly talented as well.

[NSDukeFan]

It's weird, but I would actually prefer you to be boastful and arrogant instead of being level-headed and downplaying your Warriors most of the time.

Wouldn't that be hard after what LeBron did last year?

[Troublemaker]

This Warriors team is the most talented NBA team ever. Anybody disagree?

It's very possible. The Warriors have:

* 2 of the top-4 players in the league. Forget MVP talk, which takes into account teammate strength and thus inflates guys like Westbrook and Harden. Just, flat out, who are the best players in the NBA? I would have them ranked 1. Lebron, 2. Curry, 3. Kawhi, 4. Durant. Maybe one can quibble and slide Kawhi into the 2-spot but it's hard to argue against Curry and Durant being top-4.

* Another top-15 player in Green, who is also one of the best defensive players ever.

* Another All-Star and top-20 player in Klay, who is one of the great shooters ever and can also defend.

* One of the best perimeter defenders in Iggy


They fit together perfectly, too, and those 4 All-Stars are in their prime. It's hard to top.

[gam7]

It's very possible. The Warriors have:

* 2 of the top-4 players in the league. Forget MVP talk, which takes into account teammate strength and thus inflates guys like Westbrook and Harden. Just, flat out, who are the best players in the NBA? I would have them ranked 1. Lebron, 2. Curry, 3. Kawhi, 4. Durant. Maybe one can quibble and slide Kawhi into the 2-spot but it's hard to argue against Curry and Durant being top-4.

* Another top-15 player in Green, who is also one of the best defensive players ever.

* Another All-Star and top-20 player in Klay, who is one of the great shooters ever and can also defend.

* One of the best perimeter defenders in Iggy


They fit together perfectly, too, and those 4 All-Stars are in their prime. It's hard to top.

Yes, GS is good, healthy, under control emotionally (I'm looking at you, Draymond), and appear focused. They will be hard to beat. But I will also point out that last year they were up 2-0 and coming off of a 33-point win heading to Cleveland. It is not over.

[kAzE]

It's very possible. The Warriors have:

* 2 of the top-4 players in the league. Forget MVP talk, which takes into account teammate strength and thus inflates guys like Westbrook and Harden. Just, flat out, who are the best players in the NBA? I would have them ranked 1. Lebron, 2. Curry, 3. Kawhi, 4. Durant. Maybe one can quibble and slide Kawhi into the 2-spot but it's hard to argue against Curry and Durant being top-4.

* Another top-15 player in Green, who is also one of the best defensive players ever.

* Another All-Star and top-20 player in Klay, who is one of the great shooters ever and can also defend.

* One of the best perimeter defenders in Iggy


They fit together perfectly, too, and those 4 All-Stars are in their prime. It's hard to top.

The core of Steph/KD/Klay/Draymond are all between 27 and 29 years old, they are all top 25-ish players in the league. Steph and KD are absolutely 2 of the 4 or 5 best players in the world, they can all shoot, they can all dribble/pass, and 3 of them are great defenders. Draymond is an all-time great defensive player. Curry is the best shooter of all time.

These guys are going to be ruining balance in the league for the next 5+ years. It's an absolute travesty that this team was allowed to happen.

[mgtr]

Shades of "break up the Celtics" from years ago. I don't think that the management of the Warriors should be punished because they are cleverer or better strategic thinkers or better talent analysts than others. The only thing I don't understand is how 29 other teams let the Warriors sign KD, who is clearly one of the very top basketball players in the world.

[Indoor66]

It's an absolute travesty that this team was allowed to happen.

Why a travesty? Don't teams attempt to assemble the best team possible? I do not understand the consternation at a team succeeding at the effort. I think the organization is deserving of praise for a job well done.

[kAzE]

Shades of "break up the Celtics" from years ago. I don't think that the management of the Warriors should be punished because they are cleverer or better strategic thinkers or better talent analysts than others. The only thing I don't understand is how 29 other teams let the Warriors sign KD, who is clearly one of the very top basketball players in the world.


Why a travesty? Don't teams attempt to assemble the best team possible? I do not understand the consternation at a team succeeding at the effort. I think the organization is deserving of praise for a job well done.


I didn't say the Warriors should be punished. I said it's travesty that this was even possible within the rules of the CBA at all. The goal of any CBA should be the promote competitive balance, not create super teams that result in incredibly boring and predictable postseasons. Does anybody think this is good for the league? It's absolutely awful for the league.

[cato]

I didn't say the Warriors should be punished. I said it's travesty that this was even possible within the rules of the CBA at all. The goal of any CBA should be the promote competitive balance, not create super teams that result in incredibly boring and predictable postseasons. Does anybody think this is good for the league? It's absolutely awful for the league.

Forced mediocrity?

Let's wait until Golden State gets to championship #2 before we worry about anything else.

[kAzE]

Forced mediocrity?

Huh? How does competitive balance translate to "forced mediocrity"?

[CDu]

Huh? How does competitive balance translate to "forced mediocrity"?

That is kind of the definition. If you strive for balance among the teams, by definition you are trying to keep all teams closer to the median. In other words, mediocre. The goal can still be to improve the median, i.e., improve mediocrity. But achieving competitive balance is by definition the same thing as achieving more mediocrity.

[Troublemaker]

Yes, GS is good, healthy, under control emotionally (I'm looking at you, Draymond), and appear focused. They will be hard to beat. But I will also point out that last year they were up 2-0 and coming off of a 33-point win heading to Cleveland. It is not over.

Agreed that it's not over. As great as GSW is, they are not 20 points better than the Cavs.

Cleveland needs to control the boards much better, which should be doable, and they need to be more careful with their passing and adjust to how GSW is anticipating and jumping the passing lanes.

There are likely rotational/strategical adjustments that can make the games more competitive as well. Lebron probably should not be guarding Durant. As I've written before, what OKC and the Cavs discovered last season was that it's better to put Durant and Lebron respectively on Green to switch the pick-and-rolls and play free safety. I know GSW then added Durant, but it's not like Lebron is going to stop KD anyway. Lebron's being wasted covering Durant. It's RJeff time once again, and he needs to play more. Not sure he'll do all that great on Durant, but at least it frees up Lebron to play Green.

[CDu]

Agreed that it's not over. As great as GSW is, they are not 20 points better than the Cavs.

Cleveland needs to control the boards much better, and they need to be more careful with their passing and adjust to how GSW is anticipating and jumping the passing lanes.

There are likely rotational/strategical adjustments that can make the games more competitive as well. Lebron probably should not be guarding Durant. As I've written before, what OKC and the Cavs discovered last season was that it's better to put Durant and Lebron respectively on Green to switch the pick-and-rolls and play free safety. I know GSW then added Durant, but it's not like Lebron is going to stop KD anyway. Lebron's being wasted covering Durant. It's RJeff time once again, and he needs to play more. Not sure he'll do all that great on Durant, but at least it frees up Lebron to play Green.

The problem, though, is that whomever LeBron isn't guarding (Green or Durant) immediately becomes Curry's partner in a two-man game.

But the reality is that nobody is stopping the Warriors on offense. The Cavs basically have to outscore the Warriors. They have to get more offensive rebounding from Thompson. They have to have Smith/Shumpert/Williams/Korver make shots. Their big three alone isn't enough. They have to have help.

[kAzE]

That is kind of the definition. If you strive for balance among the teams, by definition you are trying to keep all teams closer to the median. In other words, mediocre. The goal can still be to improve the median, i.e., improve mediocrity. But achieving competitive balance is by definition the same thing as achieving more mediocrity.

This is basically semantics, but "mediocrity" has a definite negative connotation, implying competitive balance is somehow a bad thing. The NBA is entertainment. Does anyone think putting all the best players on 1 team is entertaining? In that case, why don't we just get rid of the salary cap/luxury tax and have 8 all-stars join up and go 16-0 in the playoffs every year. It would be like the Harlem Globetrotters, just with 29 Washington Generals squads.

I don't think this series is over, but the Cavs are another super team. LeBron's Heat were a super team. I don't begrudge any of these players or teams for doing what they did, because they only did the best they could under what the rules allowed, but the rules are clearly flawed. This Warriors team is pretty egregious. They have 2 MVPs in their primes. That should not be possible.

[Troublemaker]

This is basically semantics, but "mediocrity" has a definite negative connotation, implying competitive balance is somehow a bad thing. The NBA is entertainment. Does anyone think putting all the best players on 1 team is entertaining? In that case, why don't we just get rid of the salary cap/luxury tax and have 8 all-stars join up and go 16-0 in the playoffs every year. It would be like the Harlem Globetrotters, just with 29 Washington Generals squads.

I don't think this series is over, but the Cavs are another super team. LeBron's Heat were a super team. I don't begrudge any of these players or teams for doing what they did, because they only did the best they could under what the rules allowed, but the rules are clearly flawed. This Warriors team is pretty egregious. They have 2 MVPs in their primes. That should not be possible.

It wouldn't have been possible without the salary cap spiking $25 million last year, just as Durant became a free agent. So there's an element of luck here -- good luck for GSW, bad luck for the rest of the league. I believe I've read that future CBAs won't allow the salary cap to spike so much in one offseason again. Still, GSW deserves some credit for being a class organization that was attractive to Durant.

[WHOneedsSOX]

It wouldn't have been possible without the salary cap spiking $25 million last year, just as Durant became a free agent. So there's an element of luck here -- good luck for GSW, bad luck for the rest of the league. I believe I've read that future CBAs won't allow the salary cap to spike so much in one offseason again. Still, GSW deserves some credit for being a class organization that was attractive to Durant.

Curry also in the final year of a 4 year, $44 million deal. I think Klay making around $16 million and Draymond around $15 million this season.

[WHOneedsSOX]

Agreed that it's not over. As great as GSW is, they are not 20 points better than the Cavs.

Cleveland needs to control the boards much better, which should be doable, and they need to be more careful with their passing and adjust to how GSW is anticipating and jumping the passing lanes.

There are likely rotational/strategical adjustments that can make the games more competitive as well. Lebron probably should not be guarding Durant. As I've written before, what OKC and the Cavs discovered last season was that it's better to put Durant and Lebron respectively on Green to switch the pick-and-rolls and play free safety. I know GSW then added Durant, but it's not like Lebron is going to stop KD anyway. Lebron's being wasted covering Durant. It's RJeff time once again, and he needs to play more. Not sure he'll do all that great on Durant, but at least it frees up Lebron to play Green.

It's not like the Warriors played all that well either though. Missed 16 layups and shot 43% from the field. Of course that 4 turnover thing is an anomaly though. Plus Klay is playing terribly offensively right now. No Warriors player outside KD and Curry scored in double figures. I think Zaza was closed at 8.

More Shumpert. Not Jefferson. I'd bring Love off the bench and start Shumpert. Rest LeBron on defense and just let him go crazy on offense. Can't have him guarding KD, initiating the offense, and playing 45 minutes a game. Just too much to do.

[kAzE]

It's not like the Warriors played all that well either though. Missed 16 layups and shot 43% from the field. Of course that 4 turnover thing is an anomaly though. Plus Klay is playing terribly offensively right now. No Warriors player outside KD and Curry scored in double figures. I think Zaza was closed at 8.

More Shumpert. Not Jefferson. I'd bring Love off the bench and start Shumpert. Rest LeBron on defense and just let him go crazy on offense. Can't have him guarding KD, initiating the offense, and playing 45 minutes a game. Just too much to do.

Hate to break it to you, but LeBron resting on defense pretty much means a 4-0 sweep. If the Cavs are going to win the series, LeBron has to be superhuman every single game. He does have to play 45 minutes a game and play both ends. There's no other way they can win it.

[cato]

This is basically semantics, but "mediocrity" has a definite negative connotation, implying competitive balance is somehow a bad thing. The NBA is entertainment. Does anyone think putting all the best players on 1 team is entertaining? In that case, why don't we just get rid of the salary cap/luxury tax and have 8 all-stars join up and go 16-0 in the playoffs every year. It would be like the Harlem Globetrotters, just with 29 Washington Generals squads.

I don't think this series is over, but the Cavs are another super team. LeBron's Heat were a super team. I don't begrudge any of these players or teams for doing what they did, because they only did the best they could under what the rules allowed, but the rules are clearly flawed. This Warriors team is pretty egregious. They have 2 MVPs in their primes. That should not be possible.

The Heat are still waiting for several of those promised rings. If they were a super team, it didn't last very long.

Players like LeBron, KD and Steph do not come along every year. Whenever they team up with complementary players, should the NBA tweak the rules to blow up the team? Perhaps adopt a rule requiring teams to get rid of their best player after they have won a certain number of titles?

Remember when OKC seemed like it was going to dominate?

Kobe and Shaq played together in their prime. Should that have been permitted? If they had gotten along like the Warriors appear to get along, should the NBA have some up with a way to blow that team up?

Those loaded Spurs teams were not very fair. Jordan and Pippen on the same team? Not fair.

[kAzE]

The Heat are still waiting for several of those promised rings. If they were a super team, it didn't last very long.

Players like LeBron, KD and Steph do not come along every year. Whenever they team up with complementary players, should the NBA tweak the rules to blow up the team? Perhaps adopt a rule requiring teams to get rid of their best player after they have won a certain number of titles?

Remember when OKC seemed like it was going to dominate?

Kobe and Shaq played together in their prime. Should that have been permitted? If they had gotten along like the Warriors appear to get along, should the NBA have some up with a way to blow that team up?

Those loaded Spurs teams were not very fair. Jordan and Pippen on the same team? Not fair.

None of your references are relevant to this discussion. This Warriors team would be like if Magic Johnson teamed up with MJ and Scottie. Even the best Bulls teams were not even close to this level of talent. Maybe if Dennis Rodman could handle and dish like Draymond, and Ron Harper could light it up from 3, and Toni Kukoc was an All-Star coming off the bench. Comparing this Warriors team to anything that has happened in the past is laughable.

3 all-stars on the same team happens all the time. There's almost always a few teams every year who have that. That's fine. But this is 4 top 25 players all in their primes on the same team, including 2 top 4 players who are both former MVPs. This type of team has never happened before.

[JayZee]

None of your references are relevant to this discussion. This Warriors team would be like if Magic Johnson teamed up with MJ and Scottie. Even the best Bulls teams were not even close to this level of talent. Maybe if Dennis Rodman could handle and dish like Draymond, and Ron Harper could light it up from 3, and Toni Kukoc was an All-Star coming off the bench. Comparing this Warriors team to anything that has happened in the past is laughable. This type of team has never happened before.

Not sure about that. Jordan >> KD or Curry. Pippen is top 50 ever. Rodman is not too far off Draymond. Kukoc was an amazing player and maybe Klay's equal on O, though in different ways. I think the biggest difference might come down to Klay's D. He is so good, and between him and Draymond just take GS's team D to such an incredible level. He caught some flak for his shooting these playoffs, but seeing him smother K Love then pressuring Kyrie - who else could do that?

But to say that the Warriors are materially more talented than the 95-96 Bulls? Not sure I can agree.

[kAzE]

Not sure about that. Jordan >> KD or Curry. Pippen is top 50 ever. Rodman is not too far off Draymond. Kukoc was an amazing player and maybe Klay's equal on O, though in different ways. I think the biggest difference might come down to Klay's D. He is so good, and between him and Draymond just take GS's team D to such an incredible level. He caught some flak for his shooting these playoffs, but seeing him smother K Love then pressuring Kyrie - who else could do that?

But to say that the Warriors are materially more talented than the 95-96 Bulls? Not sure I can agree.

No disrespect, and you're entitled to your own opinion of course, but that is flat out wrong. Jordan is obviously better than any 1 of those players but, is he better than KD and Curry combined? Hell no.

Rodman is better than Draymond? Are you effing kidding me? Draymond is 1000 times the offensive player that Rodman was, while simultaneously being 90% of the defensive player that Rodman was.

Oh and Kukoc is somehow better than Klay or even Iguodala? Both of those guys are all-stars. Kukoc never made 1 all-star team. Klay by himself is a 3 time all-star, twice named All-NBA 3rd team.

Jordan is the greatest of all time, but the Bulls were not as good of a team as these guys.

It's easy to remember how great the Bulls were in their time, but when did they ever play a team capable of stretching defenses like this? Nobody was draining pull up 28 footers in transition like Stephen Curry in the 1990s. Pippen and Jordan were both lousy from 3, and Dennis Rodman couldn't shoot from 10 feet out. That team was the greatest team of their era, but they would have serious issues in today's NBA.

[WHOneedsSOX]

Hate to break it to you, but LeBron resting on defense pretty much means a 4-0 sweep. If the Cavs are going to win the series, LeBron has to be superhuman every single game. He does have to play 45 minutes a game and play both ends. There's no other way they can win it.

Yeah, that's a great point. Lose-lose situation. 2 days off between games will help him a bit but not much. But I didn't mean full on rest. Just meant play center field like he did in the first 3 rounds and like Draymond is doing. LeBron isn't going to stop KD anyways. Let him guard Green who doesn't do a whole lot offensively other than pass and let Shumpert chase KD around for 40 minutes.

[JayZee]

No disrespect, and you're entitled to your own opinion of course, but that is flat out wrong. Jordan is obviously better than any 1 of those players but, is he better than KD and Curry combined? Hell no.

Rodman is better than Draymond? Are you effing kidding me? Draymond is 1000 times the offensive player that Rodman was, while simultaneously being 90% of the defensive player that Rodman was.

Oh and Kukoc is somehow better than Klay or even Iguodala? Both of those guys are all-stars. Kukoc never made 1 all-star team. Klay by himself is a 3 time all-star, twice named All-NBA 3rd team.

Jordan is the greatest of all time, but the Bulls were not as good of a team as these guys.

It's easy to remember how great the Bulls were in their time, but when did they ever play a team capable of stretching defenses like this? Nobody was draining pull up 28 footers in transition like Stephen Curry in the 1990s. Pippen and Jordan were both lousy from 3, and Dennis Rodman couldn't shoot from 10 feet out. That team was the greatest team of their era, but they would have serious issues in today's NBA.

I said Jordan >> KD OR Curry, not both.

I said Rodman not too far from Draymond, meaning that Draymond is better. Rodman was a force though.

I didn't even say that the Bulls were better. I just said that it wasn't obvious that the Warriors were light years more talented.

AND I called out Klay's 2-way play as being incredible and a driving force behind the Warriors sometimes overlooked defensive dominance.

This Warriors team is truly incredible, and it's not just the talent, but the coaching and the culture.

[kAzE]

I said Jordan >> KD OR Curry, not both.

I said Rodman not too far from Draymond, meaning that Draymond is better. Rodman was a force though.

I didn't even say that the Bulls were better. I just said that it wasn't obvious that the Warriors were light years more talented.

AND I called out Klay's 2-way play as being incredible and a driving force behind the Warriors sometimes overlooked defensive dominance.

This Warriors team is truly incredible, and it's not just the talent, but the coaching and the culture.

Sorry if I was a little aggressive, I've been having this argument with a few people lately, and I may have projected some of their talking points on to you . . .

But also, I'd like to add that I am old enough to remember the 95-56 Bulls, so I fully understand how good they were. I hated those Bulls teams as much as I hate this Warriors team now, because they were so good. But this is on another level, as far as I'm concerned.

[JayZee]

Sorry if I was a little aggressive, I've been having this argument with a few people lately :)

And also, I'd like to add that I am old to remember the 95-56 Bulls, so I fully understand how good they were. I hated those Bulls teams as much as I hate this Warriors team now, because they were so good. But this is on another level, as far as I'm concerned.

No worries at all. FWIW, I really didn't like those Bulls teams, or Jordan. And I love the Warriors, being from the Bay Area. Though, additionally, the players are eminently likeable and Steve Kerr is an inspiration.

[JayZee]

Sorry if I was a little aggressive, I've been having this argument with a few people lately, and I may have projected some of their talking points on to you . . .

But also, I'd like to add that I am old enough to remember the 95-56 Bulls, so I fully understand how good they were. I hated those Bulls teams as much as I hate this Warriors team now, because they were so good. But this is on another level, as far as I'm concerned.

Oh, and I am old enough to remember the pre-Jordan NBA. It would have been interesting to see some of those Lakers/Celtics 80s teams in this era given a year or two of adjustments. How many 3s would Larry Bird have shot, for one?

[kshepinthehouse]

None of your references are relevant to this discussion. This Warriors team would be like if Magic Johnson teamed up with MJ and Scottie. Even the best Bulls teams were not even close to this level of talent. Maybe if Dennis Rodman could handle and dish like Draymond, and Ron Harper could light it up from 3, and Toni Kukoc was an All-Star coming off the bench. Comparing this Warriors team to anything that has happened in the past is laughable.

3 all-stars on the same team happens all the time. There's almost always a few teams every year who have that. That's fine. But this is 4 top 25 players all in their primes on the same team, including 2 top 4 players who are both former MVPs. This type of team has never happened before.

I'm not sure what your argument is. Essentially the Warriors organically grew their super team. Then added one free agent piece, albeit it as top 3 player. This is a lot different from how LeBron grew his super team.

[kAzE]

Oh, and I am old enough to remember the pre-Jordan NBA. It would have been interesting to see some of those Lakers/Celtics 80s teams in this era given a year or two of adjustments. How many 3s would Larry Bird have shot, for one?

Despite the argument that I made, I'm pretty certain that MJ would have been a much better 3 point shooter in today's NBA. He would have focused on improving that aspect of his game much more had it been more relevant in his time. Same goes for Pippen, but I just don't think either of them were as naturally gifted at shooting the ball as Curry or Durant are.

Those 2 guys are amazing. It's well documented that Curry is likely the best shooter ever, and KD is a legit 7-footer who handles and shoots like a guard. He has to be the most skilled 7 footer of all time.


I'm not sure what your argument is. Essentially the Warriors organically grew their super team. Then added one free agent piece, albeit it as top 3 player. This is a lot different from how LeBron grew his super team.

Iguodala, Pachulia, Livingston, West, and McGee are also free agent signings, by the way. My argument was nothing disparaging about how they built their team. It was about how the rules are pretty stupid if a team like this is possible in the first place. But even within the framework of the CBA, signing KD was only possible because Stephen Curry was on a cheapo contract because of his early career injuries, and the cap went up at exactly the perfect time. So basically, they hit the jackpot and everything happened perfectly.

I'm basically arguing that this type of team sucks for the league, and that there needs to be a provision in place so that the next time something unusual with the salary cap happens, something like this can't happen again. I had no problem with their team last year, but a NBA finals team should not be able to add another former MVP in free agency.

[LasVegas]

I'm not sure what your argument is. Essentially the Warriors organically grew their super team. Then added one free agent piece, albeit it as top 3 player. This is a lot different from how LeBron grew his super team.

I don't understand this way of thinking at all. Didnt curry, green, and klay all resign with the warriors? It's not like these guys are all in their first contracts here. Right? So what's the difference between resigning a player and signing a free agent from another team?

Free agent signings are a part of sports. Just the way it is. Resign or look to the market, doesn't matter to me. It's just crazy how a 70+ win team was able to sign a top 4 player in the league. The warriors have 4 top 25 players that can play both ways and signed a bunch of good complimentary free agents. It's nuts.

[kshepinthehouse]

It's good drafting by the Warriors.

[kshepinthehouse]

Let's compare it to the Yankees. I always hated how the Yankees signed the best free agents every year and threw money at players to build their teams. I always had more respect for the small market clubs who relied on building their teams through draft and development. The Warriors mostly drafted well and developed their players. I can't fault them for that as Kaze is doing. Yes, I do feel it is different if you build your team mainly through free agency/trades. I'm not saying it's bad but it's different. It's not like the Warriors are doing what the Yankees did in baseball. I can see why people may be annoyed that Kevin Durant was able to sign but most of the rest of their team was built over time.

[cato]

None of your references are relevant to this discussion. This Warriors team would be like if Magic Johnson teamed up with MJ and Scottie. Even the best Bulls teams were not even close to this level of talent. Maybe if Dennis Rodman could handle and dish like Draymond, and Ron Harper could light it up from 3, and Toni Kukoc was an All-Star coming off the bench. Comparing this Warriors team to anything that has happened in the past is laughable.

3 all-stars on the same team happens all the time. There's almost always a few teams every year who have that. That's fine. But this is 4 top 25 players all in their primes on the same team, including 2 top 4 players who are both former MVPs. This type of team has never happened before.

Laughable? This team has not even won a Championship yet. Maybe wait to see how things play out before getting all out of balance about it.

[LasVegas]

Let's compare it to the Yankees. I always hated how the Yankees signed the best free agents every year and threw money at players to build their teams. I always had more respect for the small market clubs who relied on building their teams through draft and development. The Warriors mostly drafted well and developed their players. I can't fault them for that as Kaze is doing. Yes, I do feel it is different if you build your team mainly through free agency/trades. I'm not saying it's bad but it's different. It's not like the Warriors are doing what the Yankees did in baseball. I can see why people may be annoyed that Kevin Durant was able to sign but most of the rest of their team was built over time.

Put it this way, Durant signs with the cavs and they sweep the living crap out of GSW. So Durant is the problem. The teams last year were much more evenly matched on paper. Cavs added no one. GSW added a top 4 player. Maybe the cavs should add Anthony Davis in the offseason...

[kshepinthehouse]

Put it this way, Durant signs with the cavs and they sweep the living crap out of GSW. So Durant is the problem. The teams last year were much more evenly matched on paper. Cavs added no one. GSW added a top 4 player.

I'm not sure why you're complaining about them signing a free agent then if you said you have no problem with free agency?

And your sentence about them being evenly matched is essentially not true. Warriors jumped out to a 3-1 lead and no one at that point thought the teams were evenly matched. After the Green suspension and the Bogut injury then maybe they were evenly matched but the Warriors when fully healthy were much better than the Cavs last year.

[LasVegas]

I'm not sure why you're complaining about them signing a free agent then if you said you have no problem with free agency?

And your sentence about them being evenly matched is essentially not true. Warriors jumped out to a 3-1 lead and no one at that point thought the teams were evenly matched. After the Green suspension and the Bogut injury then maybe they were evenly matched but the Warriors when fully healthy were much better than the Cavs last year.

I have no problem with building a team via picks vs. free agency. What I have a problem with is a 70+ win team only being able to add another superstar due to some weird circumstances.

So if you believe GSW was the better team last year, do you think it was right for them to be able to add another top 4 player?

And the bogut injury? Please. Draymon suspension? Ok but he wasn't suspended the whole series. Cavs still won 4. Including 7 in their house. But this is like beating a dead horse and is offf topic.

[kAzE]

Let's compare it to the Yankees. I always hated how the Yankees signed the best free agents every year and threw money at players to build their teams. I always had more respect for the small market clubs who relied on building their teams through draft and development. The Warriors mostly drafted well and developed their players. I can't fault them for that as Kaze is doing. Yes, I do feel it is different if you build your team mainly through free agency/trades. I'm not saying it's bad but it's different. It's not like the Warriors are doing what the Yankees did in baseball. I can see why people may be annoyed that Kevin Durant was able to sign but most of the rest of their team was built over time.

Dude, have you read a single one of my posts??


I didn't say the Warriors should be punished. I said it's travesty that this was even possible within the rules of the CBA at all. The goal of any CBA should be the promote competitive balance, not create super teams that result in incredibly boring and predictable postseasons. Does anybody think this is good for the league? It's absolutely awful for the league.


I don't begrudge any of these players or teams for doing what they did, because they only did the best they could under what the rules allowed, but the rules are clearly flawed.


My argument was nothing disparaging about how they built their team. It was about how the rules are pretty stupid if a team like this is possible in the first place.

Oh, I guess not.

[kshepinthehouse]

I have no problem with building a team via picks vs. free agency. What I have a problem with is a 70+ win team only being able to add another superstar due to some weird circumstances.

So if you believe GSW was the better team last year, do you think it was right for them to be able to add another top 4 player?

I have no problem with teams signing anyone within the rules. They also gave up some key pieces to get Durant. I thought losing Bogut would hurt them more than it did. McGee and Zara have filled in admirably.

[LasVegas]

I have no problem with teams signing anyone within the rules.

Well that's what the disssuion is about. Changing the rules so that this weird circumstance can't occur again.
And I would give away all my role players for a top 4 player. That's a no brainer

[kshepinthehouse]

Well that's what the disssuion is about. Changing the rules so that this weird circumstance can't occur again.
And I would give away all my role players for a top 4 player. That's a no brainer

They actually shipped off 2 starters. Lol. But yea I would do it 100 times out of 100

[kAzE]

Laughable? This team has not even won a Championship yet. Maybe wait to see how things play out before getting all out of balance about it.

I'm sorry, but this is is a pretty weak point. Why are championships the only thing that matters? It doesn't even matter if they win the championship or not. The damage has already been done. They went 12-0 in the Western conference playoffs. They gutted the only team that stood a chance against them (remember that incredibly entertaining 7 game series in the western finals?) by basically taking their best player. That is terrible for the average NBA watching fan. The Cavs went 12-1. I watch the NBA to be entertained, and these playoffs have been a formality. The entire regular season was meaningless. I don't care if they win or not, they've already destroyed any semblance of competition in these playoffs.

[cato]

I'm sorry, but this is is a pretty weak point. Why are championships the only thing that matters? It doesn't even matter if they win the championship or not. The damage has already been done. They went 12-0 in the Western conference playoffs. They gutted the only team that stood a chance against them (remember that incredibly entertaining 7 game series in the western finals?) by basically taking their best player. That is terrible for the average NBA watching fan. The Cavs went 12-1. I watch the NBA to be entertained, and these playoffs have been a formality. The entire regular season was meaningless. I don't care if they win or not, they've already destroyed any semblance of competition in these playoffs.

Don't be sorry. Just relax.

[kshepinthehouse]

I'm sorry, but this is is a pretty weak point. Why are championships the only thing that matters? It doesn't even matter if they win the championship or not. The damage has already been done. They went 12-0 in the Western conference playoffs. They gutted the only team that stood a chance against them (remember that incredibly entertaining 7 game series in the western finals?) by basically taking their best player. That is terrible for the average NBA watching fan. The Cavs went 12-1. I watch the NBA to be entertained, and these playoffs have been a formality. The entire regular season was meaningless. I don't care if they win or not, they've already destroyed any semblance of competition in these playoffs.

At least it makes for an epic matchup
In the finals.

[kAzE]

At least it makes for an epic matchup
In the finals.

Still waiting for that. I'm not sure it will live up to the hype anymore.

[kshepinthehouse]

Still waiting for that. I'm not sure it will live up to the hype anymore.

I agree. But it's the best matchup we could have gotten. Spurs/Cavs would have been entertaining too.

[CDu]

Put it this way, Durant signs with the cavs and they sweep the living crap out of GSW. So Durant is the problem. The teams last year were much more evenly matched on paper. Cavs added no one. GSW added a top 4 player. Maybe the cavs should add Anthony Davis in the offseason...

The Cavs already added their big free agent. LeBron is the only reason the franchise is relevant. Despite having a TON of high draft picks over several years. They have Irving at a below-market deal, much like Golden State has Curry below-market. If the Cavs had drafted better, they would be the juggernaut now. And heck, they aren't far off it as is.

Why should the Warriors be penalized for drafting well and making shrewd trades? Yes, they were fortunate that Curry's injury history suppressed his value, and that as a result they had the cap space to sign Durant. But guess what? They were the team that drafted Curry and Thompson later in the lottery. They were the team to grab Green in the second round. Instead of drafting Waiters in 2012, they could had Andre Drummond or Dame Lillard. They traded up to get Tyler Zeller when they could have drafted Green and Jae Crowder. In 2013 they took Bennett over Oladipo, McCollum, Noel, and the Greak Freak. In 2014 they lucked into a third #1 pick in four years, AND got the free agent coup of free agent coups.

This all just seems like sour grapes. I doubt you would be complaining if Cleveland had drafted better and had the Superteam of Irving, Oladipo, LeBron, Green, and Drummond, with Thompson and Crowder on the bench.

[JayZee]

Still waiting for that. I'm not sure it will live up to the hype anymore.

I sure does seems like this years' playoffs are destined to be one of the least exciting ever. Though I don't think you can place the blame squarely on the Cavs and Warriors.

If the Wizards had advanced, they probably matched up better with the Celtics who also proceeded to lose Thomas.

Houston looked like they were primed to beat the Spurs until Pop just totally out classed D'Antoni.

And remember that first Spurs/Warriors game?? That was a dominant performance, by the Spurs! If Kawhi doesn't get hurt, that was shaping up to be a series.

As for the finals? We will see. Warriors looked pretty comfortable. But, again, I go back to Houston/Spurs game 1. The Spurs looked old and done. Houston is GS lite with all their floor spreading and 3-pt shooting. That turned quickly.

As for the Warriors, I just think that one can't underestimate how their culture has contributed to their success. Think McGee could have found success anywhere else? The guy has gone from a laughingstock to a +/- monster. Sure KD wanted to win a championship, but he also wanted to have fun and play the right way.

[LasVegas]

The Cavs already added their big free agent. LeBron is the only reason the franchise is relevant. Despite having a TON of high draft picks over several years. They have Irving at a below-market deal, much like Golden State has Curry below-market. If the Cavs had drafted better, they would be the juggernaut now. And heck, they aren't far off it as is.

Why should the Warriors be penalized for drafting well and making shrewd trades? Yes, they were fortunate that Curry's injury history suppressed his value, and that as a result they had the cap space to sign Durant. But guess what? They were the team that drafted Curry and Thompson later in the lottery. They were the team to grab Green in the second round. Instead of drafting Waiters in 2012, they could had Andre Drummond or Dame Lillard. They traded up to get Tyler Zeller when they could have drafted Green and Jae Crowder. In 2013 they took Bennett over Oladipo, McCollum, Noel, and the Greak Freak. In 2014 they lucked into a third #1 pick in four years, AND got the free agent coup of free agent coups.

This all just seems like sour grapes. I doubt you would be complaining if Cleveland had drafted better and had the Superteam of Irving, Oladipo, LeBron, Green, and Drummond, with Thompson and Crowder on the bench.

No sour grapes at all with how draft picks have gone in recent years. Sometimes you hit and sometimes you miss. It's mostly luck unless you get to draft a talent like LBJ. My issue is that a 70+ win team was able to add a top 4 player. That's largely it. Lebron was drafted by the cavs and was always going to head back. Could the cavs have assembled a better team with better draft picks. Sure. But that's not really my issue. I mean, I'm used to the browns draft picks. At least the cavs put some effort into it.

And I haven't lost my optimism on the cavs winning this thing. Let's see how games 2 and 3 go. If the cavs do win this thing it will cement LBJ as the goat. For me at least.

[Troublemaker]

The Heat are still waiting for several of those promised rings. If they were a super team, it didn't last very long.

Players like LeBron, KD and Steph do not come along every year. Whenever they team up with complementary players, should the NBA tweak the rules to blow up the team? Perhaps adopt a rule requiring teams to get rid of their best player after they have won a certain number of titles?

Remember when OKC seemed like it was going to dominate?

Kobe and Shaq played together in their prime. Should that have been permitted? If they had gotten along like the Warriors appear to get along, should the NBA have some up with a way to blow that team up?

Those loaded Spurs teams were not very fair. Jordan and Pippen on the same team? Not fair.

Injury or a sudden bout of selfishness causing a breakup of the Big 4 could derail things, sure. And wrt injury, it should be noted that Curry and Durant don't have picture-perfect injury histories. But, man, if the Big 4 are healthy and stay together, it doesn't look good for the rest of the league for the next 3-4 years. I'm not saying anything should be conceded to them. By all means, other contenders should try their best to topple the giant. But this GSW team is more loaded than any of those examples you listed, imo.



Iguodala, Pachulia, Livingston, West, and McGee are also free agent signings, by the way. My argument was nothing disparaging about how they built their team. It was about how the rules are pretty stupid if a team like this is possible in the first place. But even within the framework of the CBA, signing KD was only possible because Stephen Curry was on a cheapo contract because of his early career injuries, and the cap went up at exactly the perfect time. So basically, they hit the jackpot and everything happened perfectly.

Yeah, a reminder of how historical this cap increase was below. That said, GSW still had to out-compete other franchises to win Durant's services. And as JayZee mentioned above, I'm sure their culture and status as a first-class organization played a role in his decision.

I wouldn't support breaking up the Warriors, not that you or anyone has suggested that. Those were the rules at the time, and GSW took advantage. And I believe the NBA will never allow the cap to spike like that again.


https://cdn-s3.si.com/s3fs-public/2016/07/02/salary-cap-increase.jpg



I'm basically arguing that this type of team sucks for the league,

It stinks for the fans and it really stinks for the front offices of contending teams. While it's fair to expect a front office to put together a great team in order to win a championship, everyone is now in the position of needing to put together the best team of all-time in order to win one.

Look at Boston, who has received deserved praise for shrewd trades and signings and holds tons of desirable assets. They are the envy of most in the league in terms of assets, and yet as of right now, they arguably don't have a single player as good as GSW's fourth-best player Klay. Good luck turning those assets into something that can beat GSW.

[JasonEvans]

It's good drafting by the Warriors.

This cannot be stressed enough.

Curry - 7th pick, 2009
Klay - 11th pick, 2011
Draymond - 35th pick, 2012 (5th pick of the 2nd round)

It is extremely difficult to get perennial all-stars - guy who are among the top 20 players in the game -- out of picks in the 2nd half of the lottery. To get one in the 2nd round is so rare, it only happens like once a decade. Somehow, the Warriors managed to get the best player in the 2009 draft with the 7th pick, the 3rd or 4th best player in the 2011 draft with the 11th pick (Kyrie, Kawhi, and Jimmy Butler also went in that draft), and the 2nd best player in the 2012 draft with the 35th pick (Anthony Davis... is Damien Lillard better than Draymond?).

Let's be honest, the Warriors just plain got crazy lucky. Yeah, they drafted well, but a lot of this is pure luck. It is not like the Warriors would have drafted Steph if they had the 2nd pick in 2009. Every team takes Hasheem Thabeet with the #2 pick in that draft. To their credit, I think most folks thought Steph would go around #10, IIRC, and the Warriors reached a tiny bit to get him. But, if they had been picking 5th instead of 7th, I bet they take Ricky Rubio or Jonny Flynn, not Steph.

And before anyone goes ahead and says all this shows the Warriors are just better at drafting than everyone else, we should look at the highest draft pick the Warriros have had in the past 15 years. It was 2010 and they were drafting 6th. The guys who went right after the 6th pick include Gordon Hayward, Paul George, and Greg Monroe. But, with the 6th pick, the Warriors took Ekpe Udoh.

They got lucky... crazy lucky. And it resulted in a super team. They also got insanely lucky that Curry had an injury-filled, down year in his 3rd season. As a result, they were able to sign him to a ridiculously cheap contract extension that only pays him $12 million this season. They've had one of the best players in the game for 4 years at about 30% of what he is really worth.

-Jason "I say none of this to criticize the Warriors... just to point out the massive luck it took to make all this happen... and I ain't even talking about the salary cap magic that allowed them to sign Durant" Evans

[darthur]

Some random thoughts:

- I think it is a little much to say this is obviously the most talented team ever assembled. Before this game, people were saying the exact opposite. Yes, it can make a case, but uh Jordan basically won 6 rings in a row right? I do legitimately believe the Curry injury last year was a big deal, but they still lost last year to the Cavs and almost lost last year to the Thunder. They were hardly invincible. This year, they are looking pretty great but they sure weren't looking so great right before the Kawhi injury.

- GS has many free agents, but other than KD, it's not like they are marquee talents flocking to join a super-team.
Iguodala: A legitimate very good player, but he joined the Warriors long before they were anything special -- a young team on the rise that nobody seriously expects to compete for a championship, similar to Portland now.
Pachulia: An aging journeyman center, a cheaper less heralded version of Andrew Bogut who they had to give up precisely because of salary cap rules.
Livingston: A low-assist non-3-shooting backup point guard that no team wanted before GS signed him (again before they were anything special)
West: A legitimate ring chaser, an older player going cheap to get a chance on a relevant team. But (a) he did it first with San Antonio, and (b) I doubt anyone would really pay him significantly more right now either. He's a long way from his former all star self.
McGee: A signing that looks really good right now, but again literally nobody else wanted him. Even the Warriors were supposedly very dubious and tried him out only because Iguodala vouched for him.
By and large, these players aren't anything super talents playing for the Warriors on the cheap. They are, for the most prat, pretty generic journeymen who fit the system and look good because of the system and because of who they play with.

- What do you guys think of CP3 considering signing with San Antonio? If you legitimately believe Cleveland last year was clearly better than GS, is this all far off from KD signing with GS?

- I agree completely with JE's post. GS got very lucky with Curry's early career injuries, but they are where they are first and foremost because they drafted (by skill and/or luck) great players at mid-level spots and because the players+coach together developed a culture that other people wanted to join.

- Btw on the previous thread, there was some discussion of whether the team would blow up. I doubt anything crazy. Curry has said he cannot imagine signing anywhere else. KD has said it was absolutely the right call to sign at GS and apparently he'd be willing to consider taking below max to help keep the team together. Klay Thompson: "If I could score 6 pts a game and it gets us 4 wins and an NBA chip, I can do that every year." All this would change if they stopped winning or if the CBA starts forcing major pay cuts, but for now, I think these guys are all exactly where they want to be.

[sagegrouse]

Last night, the Warriors had 31 assists and four turnovers. The Cavs had 15 assists and 20 turnovers. In rough numbers (correct me if I'm wa-a-a-y off), each of these stats is worth about one point. So, let's give the Warriors +27 and the Cavs -5. The algebraic difference is 32 points. Golden State won by 22. Regression toward the two teams respective means in assists and turnovers would make a huge difference. Admittedly, Golden State earned their assist-turnover differential, but it is hard to believe that these margins won't be closed substantially in subsequent games.

I don't know how this will turn out -- maybe the Warriors win four straight, which would make my grandsons very happy, but I doubt we see the same assist-turnover differentials in future games.

Thanks for listening,
Sage

[Philadukie]

This cannot be stressed enough.

Curry - 7th pick, 2009
Klay - 11th pick, 2011
Draymond - 35th pick, 2012 (5th pick of the 2nd round)

Let's be honest, the Warriors just plain got crazy lucky. Yeah, they drafted well, but a lot of this is pure luck.

They got lucky... crazy lucky. And it resulted in a super team. They also got insanely lucky that Curry had an injury-filled, down year in his 3rd season. As a result, they were able to sign him to a ridiculously cheap contract extension that only pays him $12 million this season. They've had one of the best players in the game for 4 years at about 30% of what he is really worth.

-Jason "I say none of this to criticize the Warriors... just to point out the massive luck it took to make all this happen... and I ain't even talking about the salary cap magic that allowed them to sign Durant" Evans

Yes, luck. But I think the central point here is what they were allowed/able to do AFTER they got lucky, which is sign one of the best players in the league in his prime.

This isn't like the Bulls getting lucky with drafting Jordan as the all-time greatest and then Scottie Pippen as the perfect complement (via the Sonics draft pick, but traded right away). This is like the Bulls having Jordan and Pippen in their prime and THEN getting, say, Magic Johnson (I know the dates are a bit off) also in his prime.

The Bulls were great enough but still had to win some tough games, over extended series', in the post season. If this GSW team stays together, and stays healthy, they could run the post season table for the next 5 years - easy. They're good enough and they're young enough.

But it's not good for the NBA.

[Bluedog]

RE: This talk about competitive balance and how it's critical for viewership/ratings. For some reason, US sports leagues think making teams more similar in ability will lead to more exciting outcomes and more viewership and thus implement policies like the salary cap and giving the worst teams top draft choices in an effort to "level the playing field." However, European soccer leagues do no such things, have a more clear hierarchy of the "haves" and "have nots" and people in Europe care more about football (soccer) than ever. Their enthusiasm hasn't dampened even though the top teams spend 10x the amount on players and rake in so much more revenue than oother clubs. A bit ironic given that the US economic system is the most capitalist of the bunch, yet sports leagues have socialist policies, while European sports leagues are more capitalist. Basically, what I'm saying is dynasties/consistent power teams are not necessarily detrimental to fan interest, which may fly in the face of conventional wisdom. There was a Freakonomics podcast about this exact topic where they made this argument actually.

[LasVegas]

A lot of good stuff here recently. The large issue here is what happens if the warriors beat the cavs relatively easily. What team could possibly match what they have? Should we just sit back and not watch the NBA for 5 years? I don't fault the warriors for what they did. They got pretty dang lucky with their picks and then went out and signed KD at the PERFECT time. But does anyone think another team can come close to competing with them if they win this year and prove they really are THAT good?

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

Some random thoughts:

- I think it is a little much to say this is obviously the most talented team ever assembled. Before this game, people were saying the exact opposite.

Anyone who was saying the exact opposite... that Golden State is the least talented team ever assembled, should get their heads examined.

[cato]

If this GSW team stays together, and stays healthy, they could run the post season table for the next 5 years - easy. They're good enough and they're young enough.

But it's not good for the NBA.

The next 5(!) years? Shall we let them get to 2 championships before we start worrying about the next 5 years?

[NSDukeFan]

The next 5(!) years? Shall we let them get to 2 championships before we start worrying about the next 5 years?

I agree. I'll take Golden State winning fewer than 4 out of the next 5 NBA titles.

[YmoBeThere]

should get their heads examined.

I've often thought I needed to have this done.

[Indoor66]

I've often thought I needed to have this done.

Not me. I'm always afraid of what they might (or might not) find! :mad::p:cool:

[Troublemaker]

- What do you guys think of CP3 considering signing with San Antonio? If you legitimately believe Cleveland last year was clearly better than GS, is this all far off from KD signing with GS?

Yes, it's very different. Chris Paul is 32 and probably only has 1 more season (if that) of being a top-10 player; frankly, he's past due for a decline. And for that 1 season, San Antonio would still only have Kawhi + Paul, but they'd be missing that 3rd and 4th top-20 player (Draymond and Klay) unless Aldridge reverses his decline. Durant joined a 73-win, 3-All Star team at the peak of its powers, with everyone involved being in their primes. Paul would be joining an overachieving Spurs team that's heavily reliant on 1 superstar.

But, the biggest issue is that you're operating on a faulty premise that Durant's decision needs to be defended. The dude wanted to win championships, and GSW remarkably had the proper cap space thanks to the cap spike and Curry's contract. Durant made a great decision, the right decision, and he's now living up to his contract and his reputation. I don't see anything to criticize.

If I were going to criticize anybody, and I wrote this at the time of his signing, it would be to criticize the media and fans that have created a rings-obsessed culture. If you don't win a ring (e.g. Malone, Barkley, Ewing), then you're some sort of loser. If you win lots of rings (e.g. Jordan), you are revered despite sometimes being a not-so-great human being. If I were Durant, I wouldn't have taken any chances either.


A lot of good stuff here recently. The large issue here is what happens if the warriors beat the cavs relatively easily. What team could possibly match what they have? Should we just sit back and not watch the NBA for 5 years? I don't fault the warriors for what they did. They got pretty dang lucky with their picks and then went out and signed KD at the PERFECT time. But does anyone think another team can come close to competing with them if they win this year and prove they really are THAT good?

I'm going to watch the NBA regardless. I like the product. It's just that I'll know the ending to the season for the next several years.

[kAzE]

RE: This talk about competitive balance and how it's critical for viewership/ratings. For some reason, US sports leagues think making teams more similar in ability will lead to more exciting outcomes and more viewership and thus implement policies like the salary cap and giving the worst teams top draft choices in an effort to "level the playing field." However, European soccer leagues do no such things, have a more clear hierarchy of the "haves" and "have nots" and people in Europe care more about football (soccer) than ever. Their enthusiasm hasn't dampened even though the top teams spend 10x the amount on players and rake in so much more revenue than oother clubs. A bit ironic given that the US economic system is the most capitalist of the bunch, yet sports leagues have socialist policies, while European sports leagues are more capitalist. Basically, what I'm saying is dynasties/consistent power teams are not necessarily detrimental to fan interest, which may fly in the face of conventional wisdom. There was a Freakonomics podcast about this exact topic where they made this argument actually.

I agree with some of this to an extent, but capitalism still includes anti-trust laws. This Warriors team has a monopoly on top 20 talent in the NBA right now. When you have two of the top 4 players in the world, that's like if Microsoft merged with Apple, or Walgreens merged with CVS. Right now, the Warriors are the huge corporation and everyone else is a mom and pop store (OK fine, maybe the Cavs are like Dell Computer). The rules in place with American sports leagues are there to promote competition, much like our economy.

I mean, yes I see the similarities to socialism, but a sport like basketball, where stars are pretty much the only thing that matters, these "socialist" style rules, such as the salary cap, luxury tax, and draft lottery (designed to spread the wealth) are 100% necessary to maintain a good product. No other sports league is dominated by stars quite like the NBA. Especially when you're talking about the top 5 players. LeBron has made 7 straight finals. That should tell you all you need to know about how important it is to have a top 5 player. There has probably only been 1 or 2 teams in the past 20 years who even made the finals without a top 5 player. It's more important than anything else. Period. And the Warriors have 2 of them.

[kshepinthehouse]

I agree with some of this to an extent, but capitalism still includes anti-trust laws. This Warriors team has a monopoly on top 20 talent in the NBA right now. When you have two of the top 4 players in the world, that's like if Microsoft merged with Apple, or Walgreens merged with CVS. Right now, the Warriors are the huge corporation and everyone else is a mom and pop store (OK fine, maybe the Cavs are like Dell Computer). The rules in place with American sports leagues are there to promote competition, much like our economy.

I mean, yes I see the similarities to socialism, but a sport like basketball, where stars are pretty much the only thing that matters, these "socialist" style rules, such as the salary cap, luxury tax, and draft lottery (designed to spread the wealth) are 100% necessary to maintain a good product. No other sports league is dominated by stars quite like the NBA. Especially when you're talking about the top 5 players. LeBron has made 7 straight finals. That should tell you all you need to know about how important it is to have a top 5 player. There has probably only been 1 or 2 teams in the past 20 years who even made the finals without a top 5 player. It's more important than anything else. Period. And the Warriors have 2 of them.

Or maybe he's made 7 straight finals because he plays in the east.

Pistons did very well for years and won multiple championships without a top 10 player. Chauncey Billups, Ben Wallace, Rasheed, Rip, etc.

[kAzE]

Or maybe he's made 7 straight finals because he plays in the east.

Pistons did very well for years and won multiple championships without a top 10 player. Chauncey Billups, Ben Wallace, Rasheed, Rip, etc.

They won 1 championship (2004), and they were 1 of the teams I had in mind when I said only 1 or 2 teams in the past 20 years have even made the finals without a top 5 player.

[kshepinthehouse]

They won 1 championship (2004), and they were 1 of the teams I had in mind when I said only 1 or 2 teams in the past 20 years have even made the finals without a top 5 player.

You're right, sure seems like they won more than that.

[sagegrouse]

They won 1 championship (2004), and they were 1 of the teams I had in mind when I said only 1 or 2 teams in the past 20 years have even made the finals without a top 5 player.


You're right, sure seems like they won more than that.

I suppose that the 1989 and 1990 Detroit Pistons don't count because Isiah Thomas counts as a top ten player? Do "McFilthy" and "McNasty" (Laimbeer and Mahorn) get credit as "top-ten dirty?"

[kAzE]

I suppose that the 1989 and 1990 Detroit Pistons don't count because Isiah Thomas counts as a top ten player? Do "McFilthy" and "McNasty" (Laimbeer and Mahorn) get credit as "top-ten dirty?"

That was more than 20 years ago. My caveats are bulletproof!

[sagegrouse]

That was more than 20 years ago. My caveats are bulletproof!

Seems like only yesterday....

[dukelifer]

Yes, it's very different. Chris Paul is 32 and probably only has 1 more season (if that) of being a top-10 player; frankly, he's past due for a decline. And for that 1 season, San Antonio would still only have Kawhi + Paul, but they'd be missing that 3rd and 4th top-20 player (Draymond and Klay) unless Aldridge reverses his decline. Durant joined a 73-win, 3-All Star team at the peak of its powers, with everyone involved being in their primes. Paul would be joining an overachieving Spurs team that's heavily reliant on 1 superstar.

But, the biggest issue is that you're operating on a faulty premise that Durant's decision needs to be defended. The dude wanted to win championships, and GSW remarkably had the proper cap space thanks to the cap spike and Curry's contract. Durant made a great decision, the right decision, and he's now living up to his contract and his reputation. I don't see anything to criticize.

If I were going to criticize anybody, and I wrote this at the time of his signing, it would be to criticize the media and fans that have created a rings-obsessed culture. If you don't win a ring (e.g. Malone, Barkley, Ewing), then you're some sort of loser. If you win lots of rings (e.g. Jordan), you are revered despite sometimes being a not-so-great human being. If I were Durant, I wouldn't have taken any chances either.



I'm going to watch the NBA regardless. I like the product. It's just that I'll know the ending to the season for the next several years.
It was also a good fit for Durant. He is a much better version of Harrison Barnes. It was an easy plug and play. A key issue for GS is the quality of their bench long term. But I suspect they will always attract the aging former star looking for a ring.

[Indoor66]

Seems like only yesterday...

It is Yesterday Once More (https://www.google.com/search?q=yesterday+once+more&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8)....

[rsvman]

It was also a good fit for Durant. He is a ridiculously, staggeringly, almost unimaginably better version of Harrison Barnes. It was an easy plug and play. A key issue for GS is the quality of their bench long term. But I suspect they will always attract the aging former star looking for a ring.
FIFY.

[cato]

I agree with some of this to an extent, but capitalism still includes anti-trust laws. This Warriors team has a monopoly on top 20 talent in the NBA right now. When you have two of the top 4 players in the world, that's like if Microsoft merged with Apple, or Walgreens merged with CVS. Right now, the Warriors are the huge corporation and everyone else is a mom and pop store (OK fine, maybe the Cavs are like Dell Computer). The rules in place with American sports leagues are there to promote competition, much like our economy.

I mean, yes I see the similarities to socialism, but a sport like basketball, where stars are pretty much the only thing that matters, these "socialist" style rules, such as the salary cap, luxury tax, and draft lottery (designed to spread the wealth) are 100% necessary to maintain a good product. No other sports league is dominated by stars quite like the NBA. Especially when you're talking about the top 5 players. LeBron has made 7 straight finals. That should tell you all you need to know about how important it is to have a top 5 player. There has probably only been 1 or 2 teams in the past 20 years who even made the finals without a top 5 player. It's more important than anything else. Period. And the Warriors have 2 of them.

The monopoly analogy does not work. The Warriors are no bigger than other teams and do not control the NBA market. They just put together a special team and lucked into the situation where a top 5 player was a free agent, they had space to sign him and he fits the team perfectly.

They were unique circumstances for a unique team.

[JasonEvans]

Everyone wants a ring.

If the Warriors dominate the Cavs, I bet you will see some other stars find a way to get onto the Cavs team to give them a chance to beat the Warriors. We are already hearing about Chris Paul going to the Spurs to make them more competitive with the Warriors (with a healthy Kwahi, I am certain the Spurs take multiple games off the Warriors this year). What will happen is we will see stars making cap-friendly deals in tandem with each other and stuff like that to build 2 or maybe 3 super teams. And while that may make for fun NBA Finals, it is going to lead to even more of what we saw this year with a couple/few dominant teams and the rest of the league utterly incapable of even competing. And that is bad for the NBA, IMO.

Even when the Celtics, Lakers, and Bulls of the 80s and 90s were dominating, they had plenty of series that went 6 or 7 games throughout the playoffs. 4 or 5-game sweeps where few of the games are even competitive is really bad for the NBA.

[Richard Berg]

Can we just acknowledge how ironic it is for this conversation to emerge on a Duke board?

[JNort]

Even if all the talent was distributed more (2 stars per team maybe) it would probably be even more unbalanced as far as championships go.

LeBron on his own was almost able to take out a healthy Warriors team with 3 top 20 guys and a top 2 bench. If you spread the talent around more I think LeBron wins more rings. Sure the rest of the league would be more entertaining but I don't see how people will stop LeBron and Kyrie.

Only possible duos that may pose a threat are:
KD back with Russ
Leonard + CP3
Harden + Klay (if we assume only 2 stars per team and Steph and Draymond stay together)


I could come up with dream scenarios but those to me seemed more realistic.

[Troublemaker]

Can we just acknowledge how ironic it is for this conversation to emerge on a Duke board?

Why? The 1-and-done postseason in college basketball gives every contender a chance.


Everyone wants a ring.

If the Warriors dominate the Cavs, I bet you will see some other stars find a way to get onto the Cavs team to give them a chance to beat the Warriors. We are already hearing about Chris Paul going to the Spurs to make them more competitive with the Warriors (with a healthy Kwahi, I am certain the Spurs take multiple games off the Warriors this year). What will happen is we will see stars making cap-friendly deals in tandem with each other and stuff like that to build 2 or maybe 3 super teams. And while that may make for fun NBA Finals, it is going to lead to even more of what we saw this year with a couple/few dominant teams and the rest of the league utterly incapable of even competing. And that is bad for the NBA, IMO.

I could see that. Just as the idea of creating a super-team didn't stop with Lebron and the Heat, it won't stop with Durant and the Warriors.

The Spurs would have to gut most of their depth to sign Paul (http://www.poundingtherock.com/2017/5/25/15688168/nba-free-agency-chris-paul-spurs-sacrifice). But, assuming they do that, Lebron is only tied up with the Cavs for one more season (player-option for 18-19). He could then follow Paul to the Spurs the following offseason for a discount; Lebron has said in the past he would love to play with his friend Paul, and he considers Pop to be the greatest coach of all-time. A Spurs team with prime Kawhi, 34-yr-old Lebron, and 34-yr-old Chris Paul might be the best chance we have of toppling the Warriors.

[JNort]

Even if all the talent was distributed more (2 stars per team maybe) it would probably be even more unbalanced as far as championships go.

LeBron on his own was almost able to take out a healthy Warriors team with 3 top 20 guys and a top 2 bench. If you spread the talent around more I think LeBron wins more rings. Sure the rest of the league would be more entertaining but I don't see how people will stop LeBron and Kyrie.

Only possible duos that may pose a threat are:
KD back with Russ
Leonard + CP3
Harden + Klay (if we assume only 2 stars per team and Steph and Draymond stay together)


I could come up with dream scenarios but those to me seemed more realistic.
Anyway all this aside what would y'all suggest to stop stuff like "super teams" from happening?

[JNort]

Why? The 1-and-done postseason in college basketball gives every contender a chance.



I could see that. Just as the idea of creating a super-team didn't stop with Lebron and the Heat, it won't stop with Durant and the Warriors.

The Spurs would have to gut most of their depth to sign Paul (http://www.poundingtherock.com/2017/5/25/15688168/nba-free-agency-chris-paul-spurs-sacrifice). But, assuming they do that, Lebron is only tied up with the Cavs for one more season (player-option for 18-19). He could then follow Paul to the Spurs the following offseason for a discount; Lebron has said in the past he would love to play with his friend Paul, and he considers Pop to be the greatest coach of all-time. A Spurs team with prime Kawhi, 34-yr-old Lebron, and 34-yr-old Chris Paul might be the best chance we have of toppling the Warriors.
LeBron is no way going to the Spurs. That's probably the least likely star to go there. More likely CP3 would try to join Bron at some point.

I really wish that would happen too. Kyrie playing the 2 guard would be awesome because he gets to actively due what he wants to do and that's score. It also takes pressure off of Bron to create all the time. CP3 now guards the point (which is an upgrade from Kyrie) and Kyrie guards the 2 which is probably the weakest position in the NBA right now.

Dump Love and his contract, trade TT while his value is kinda high (plus that contract unless they can make it work) and fill out the team with role guys/veterans who want a ring for less $$$

[CDu]

Anyway all this aside what would y'all suggest to stop stuff like "super teams" from happening?

Well, a "hard cap" would make it nearly impossible for teams to keep multiple star players for long. But even that wouldn't prevent it completely. And it would have the negative byproduct of forcing teams to break up their rosters as their home-grown talent gets too expensive. But short of completely changing or removing free agency, there isn't much that can be done.

[-jk]

Well, a "hard cap" would make it nearly impossible for teams to keep multiple star players for long. But even that wouldn't prevent it completely. And it would have the negative byproduct of forcing teams to break up their rosters as their home-grown talent gets too expensive. But short of completely changing or removing free agency, there isn't much that can be done.

Except the money has gotten so silly, they really don't need to max out if they want rings.

-jk

[kAzE]

Even if all the talent was distributed more (2 stars per team maybe) it would probably be even more unbalanced as far as championships go.

LeBron on his own was almost able to take out a healthy Warriors team with 3 top 20 guys and a top 2 bench. If you spread the talent around more I think LeBron wins more rings. Sure the rest of the league would be more entertaining but I don't see how people will stop LeBron and Kyrie.

Only possible duos that may pose a threat are:
KD back with Russ
Leonard + CP3
Harden + Klay (if we assume only 2 stars per team and Steph and Draymond stay together)


I could come up with dream scenarios but those to me seemed more realistic.

Well, that scenario is pretty close to the 90s. Jordan and Pippen vs. Malone and Stockon. And Kemp and Payton. Alonzo and Tim Hardaway. Barkley and Kevin Johnson. Olajuwon and Drexler. Ewing and Starks. Shaq and Penny. Thomas and Dumars.

And hey, guess what? Jordan won a bunch of rings. But we weren't complaining about it being unfair. The Bulls still had to fight hard for those rings, and the playoffs were mostly fun to watch. Jordan's greatness even in dominance was entertaining, because we got to see greatness challenged. 13-0 in the playoffs, and not even being remotely challenged yet is just ridiculous.

[JNort]

Well, that scenario is pretty close to the 90s. Jordan and Pippen vs. Malone and Stockon. And Kemp and Payton. Alonzo and Tim Hardaway. Barkley and Kevin Johnson. Olajuwon and Drexler. Ewing and Starks. Shaq and Penny. Thomas and Dumars.

And hey, guess what? Jordan won a bunch of rings. But we weren't complaining about it being unfair. The Bulls still had to fight hard for those rings, and the playoffs were mostly fun to watch. Jordan's greatness even in dominance was entertaining, because we got to see greatness challenged. 13-0 in the playoffs, and not even being remotely challenged yet is just ridiculous.

True, hence why I also said LeBron and Kyrie would win a ton of rings. Those other pairs would be the great matchups that could challenge them perhaps and give us a few good series

[JayZee]

Even if all the talent was distributed more (2 stars per team maybe) it would probably be even more unbalanced as far as championships go.

LeBron on his own was almost able to take out a healthy Warriors team with 3 top 20 guys and a top 2 bench. If you spread the talent around more I think LeBron wins more rings. Sure the rest of the league would be more entertaining but I don't see how people will stop LeBron and Kyrie.

Only possible duos that may pose a threat are:
KD back with Russ
Leonard + CP3
Harden + Klay (if we assume only 2 stars per team and Steph and Draymond stay together)


I could come up with dream scenarios but those to me seemed more realistic.

Exactly. I think LeBron's greatness also was a factor with KD signing with the Warriors. All the great players want to win a 'ship. And they know that LeBron himself can carry a team, even without other top tier stars. Look at 2015 when Kyrie went down. LeBron alone made the Cavs competitive. The next level of players (Curry, KD, CPaul) know that they have no chance unless they team up.

[kshepinthehouse]

Exactly. I think LeBron's greatness also was a factor with KD signing with the Warriors. All the great players want to win a 'ship. And they know that LeBron himself can carry a team, even without other top tier stars. Look at 2015 when Kyrie went down. LeBron alone made the Cavs competitive. The next level of players (Curry, KD, CPaul) know that they have no chance unless they team up.

Lebron isn't THAT much better than KD. Is he?

[JNort]

Lebron isn't THAT much better than KD. Is he?

I would say so. Imo KD isn't even the 2nd best player in the NBA, give me Leonard instead then KD. Part of what makes Bron so great is his versatility, ability to make his teammates better, his basketball IQ, and his ability to impact games even when not scoring. If KD isn't scoring then he's not helping very much.

[kshepinthehouse]

I would say so. Imo KD isn't even the 2nd best player in the NBA, give me Leonard instead then KD. Part of what makes Bron so great is his versatility, ability to make his teammates better, his basketball IQ, and his ability to impact games even when not scoring. If KD isn't scoring then he's not helping very much.

When is he ever not scoring? 😂 And I'm going to have to disagree, the gap between KD and Lebron isn't as wide as people think. KD is underrated in a lot of other aspects of his game that don't involve scoring.

For all you Lebron haters, go back and watch game 1 and count how many times Lebron gets burned on D or gives up on D. Curry/Durant made him look silly a couple times.

[darthur]

When is he ever not scoring? �� And I'm going to have to disagree, the gap between KD and Lebron isn't as wide as people think. KD is underrated in a lot of other aspects of his game that don't involve scoring.

For all you Lebron haters, go back and watch game 1 and count how many times Lebron gets burned on D or gives up on D. Curry/Durant made him look silly a couple times.

LeBron is significantly better than KD and everyone else IMO, and I still fully stand by my claim earlier that KD is not even the best player on his own team (although he does match up better against the Cavs than Steph).

Despite all the hype around KD's offense in game 1, his defense on LeBron looked really good to me. I think his offensive game was actually not clearly better than Steph's though. They were very similar efficiency and Steph, like normal, had better +-. KD had higher usage but he also got multiple wide-open dunks mainly because the Cavs defense thought a Curry 3 more dangerous than an uncontested KD rim run. In other words, I think KD benefited from Steph's presence much more than the opposite.

[kshepinthehouse]

Maybe over the course of their careers Lebron has been significantly better, but at this point, no, Lebron is not significantly better than KD. By the way, the 2012-2013 season is the last time ESPN's player efficiency rating would agree with that premise. And Lebron was 1 with KD coming in a distant second lol.

[JNort]

When is he ever not scoring? �� And I'm going to have to disagree, the gap between KD and Lebron isn't as wide as people think. KD is underrated in a lot of other aspects of his game that don't involve scoring.

For all you Lebron haters, go back and watch game 1 and count how many times Lebron gets burned on D or gives up on D. Curry/Durant made him look silly a couple times.
Durant struggled when LeBron was on him. Most of his points came in transition or on bad switches. You are just utterly underestimating what LeBron does.

[kshepinthehouse]

Durant struggled when LeBron was on him. Most of his points came in transition or on bad switches. You are just utterly underestimating what LeBron does.

Go back and watch the tape. Lebron defense was bad Thursday night. I suspect it will be much better tonight, but in no way shape or form did Lebron have a good night defensively.

[Troublemaker]

Maybe over the course of their careers Lebron has been significantly better, but at this point, no, Lebron is not significantly better than KD. By the way, the 2012-2013 season is the last time ESPN's player efficiency rating would agree with that premise. And Lebron was 1 with KD coming in a distant second lol.

I tend to agree but would put the focus more on Durant's improvement in recent years, as he is now a very good defender whose rim protection is a key part of GSW's defense, and he is capable of assisting open teammates and running pick-and-roll in addition to being perhaps the best scorer in the league. It's just hard for anyone to be much better than Durant.

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

Maybe over the course of their careers Lebron has been significantly better, but at this point, no, Lebron is not significantly better than KD. By the way, the 2012-2013 season is the last time ESPN's player efficiency rating would agree with that premise. And Lebron was 1 with KD coming in a distant second lol.

Are you suggesting Lebron isn't playing some of the best basketball of his career right now? Because pretty much any metric would say otherwise.

Durant is one of the best players in the world, right now. Lebron is one of the best players in history. Right now.

[kshepinthehouse]

Are you suggesting Lebron isn't playing some of the best basketball of his career right now? Because pretty much any metric would say otherwise.

Durant is one of the best players in the world, right now. Lebron is one of the best players in history. Right now.

I'm suggesting that Durant has improved like troublemaker said and Lebron is not SIGNIFICANTLY better than Durant. I'm fine with anyone making the argument that Lebron is better, but he is not better by a significant margin.

[kshepinthehouse]

I tend to agree but would put the focus more on Durant's improvement in recent years, as he is now a very good defender whose rim protection is a key part of GSW's defense, and he is capable of assisting open teammates and running pick-and-roll in addition to being perhaps the best scorer in the league. It's just hard for anyone to be much better than Durant.

You're exactly right, Durant has closed the gaps on a lot of the skills Lebron once had over him. Lebron has always been a great passer since he came into the league and Durant is much improved in that aspect as well as rim protection like you said.

[cato]

Well, a "hard cap" would make it nearly impossible for teams to keep multiple star players for long. But even that wouldn't prevent it completely. And it would have the negative byproduct of forcing teams to break up their rosters as their home-grown talent gets too expensive. But short of completely changing or removing free agency, there isn't much that can be done.

And I don't see either of these two options happening in the current landscape. A hard cap takes money out of the players' pockets and puts it in the owners', as does free agency. Both restrict players ability to control their own destiny.

The players worked hard to get the concessions they were able to get, and I don't see them giving them up easily.

[JayZee]

You're exactly right, Durant has closed the gaps on a lot of the skills Lebron once had over him. Lebron has always been a great passer since he came into the league and Durant is much improved in that aspect as well as rim protection like you said.

KD is great, but Lebron is just on a different level. And it's not the passing, but the playmaking. KD has surely improved his passing, but LeBron just plain makes the game different with his ability to play any number of styles and positions.

We will see how things change tonight, but clearly the Warriors played LeBron with a unique style in game 1, goading him into driving KD 1 on 1 and staying home on shooters. As K said, LeBron is a basketball genius, so it will be interesting to see the counters the Cavs come up with. I just know that the counters will center around LeBron as there hasn't been a player ever (except for maybe Magic) who is so flexible in how they can affect the game. Passer, Scorer, D, Rebounding, PG, Center, anything.

[JNort]

And I don't see either of these two options happening in the current landscape. A hard cap takes money out of the players' pockets and puts it in the owners', as does free agency. Both restrict players ability to control their own destiny.

The players worked hard to get the concessions they were able to get, and I don't see them giving them up easily.
What if it was a tier based system

$20 million +

No more than 2 people on a roster can make this much

$15 million +
No more than 3 people on a roster

$10 million +
No more than 6 on a roster

That would give you at best 2 max players, 1 border line all star or just a great starter, 2 solid starting NBA role players and 1 top 6th man.

Basically the average starter or role player in the NBA would make more than they do now and if you truly believe you deserve a max deal then you must go to a team that can fit it under those rules.

Obviously there aren't 60 guys (2 per team) worth the max but that just means you can get more mid level talent loaded onto a roster to challenge a team with 2 stars. I'm just spit balling here, its not perfect so perhaps one of you can build off of this to make it more balanced.

[darthur]

Maybe over the course of their careers Lebron has been significantly better, but at this point, no, Lebron is not significantly better than KD. By the way, the 2012-2013 season is the last time ESPN's player efficiency rating would agree with that premise. And Lebron was 1 with KD coming in a distant second lol.

Player efficiency rating is a pretty flawed stat IMO. It's all very mysterious because the formula is so complicated, but here's a pretty good approximation:

[ FGM x 85.910 + Steals x 53.897 + 3PTM x 51.757 + FTM x 46.845 + Blocks x 39.190 + Offensive_Reb x 39.190 + Assists x 34.677 + Defensive_Reb x 14.707 - Foul x 17.174 - FT_Miss x 20.091 - FG_Miss x 39.190 - TO x 53.897 ] x (1 / Minutes).

See here: http://bleacherreport.com/articles/113144-cracking-the-code-how-to-calculate-hollingers-per-without-all-the-mess

Why I don't like it:

- It tries to include defense but does a crap job, including only blocks and steals.
- It way overvalues uncontested defensive rebounds.
- Despite its name, it far, far prefers volume shooting over efficient shooting. Every time you jack up a bad 2 point FGA with 35% chance of success, PER will increase your score.
- It completely fails to account for ways you can make a team better that aren't in the box score. LeBron is very good at this, and KD is not IMO.

And in this case, it (forgivably) doesn't account for the fact that LeBron plays far better in the playoffs.

If you want an all-in-one stat, I'd argue you should use Real Plus Minus, even though it also seems questionable on defense at times, e.g. Klay being a net negative defender. LeBron's finishes in that over last 4 years: 1, 1, 2, 1. Curry's finishes in that over last 4 years: 3, 4, 1, 6. KD's finishes in that over last years: 11, 8, 24 (injured), 4. KD has never been close to LeBron and has never been ahead of Curry in the Kerr era.

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

Steve Kerr returns tonight. No matter who you are rooting for, you have to feel good about that.

[dukelifer]

Steve Kerr returns tonight. No matter who you are rooting for, you have to feel good about that.

Cavs not going to win tonight.

[darthur]

Weird game so far -- major sloppiness combined with some individual brilliance on both sides. Whoever pulls it together first will be in a very good position.

[elvis14]

Wow they scored 74 points in the first quarter!!!

[LasVegas]

A ton of fouls and no defense so far from either team. Yuck.

[Troublemaker]

Cavs are playing much better than in Game 1, much more active defensively, but still trailing after 1Q.

I think they can win the game if they cut down on the turnovers. 5 in that quarter, feeding GSW's deadly fastbreak. Kyrie was bad, unfortunately.

[darthur]

A ton of fouls and no defense so far from either team. Yuck.

I disagree that there is no defense. Cleveland is scoring a ton primarily because GS is turning it over a ton. GS is scoring a ton primarily because Cleveland is fouling a ton. I think the effort is there.

[LasVegas]

I disagree that there is no defense. Cleveland is scoring a ton primarily because GS is turning it over a ton. GS is scoring a ton primarily because Cleveland is fouling a ton. I think the effort is there.

Isn't committing a ton of fouls bad defense?

[elvis14]

Isn't committing a ton of fouls bad defense?

When playing against Curry, Kyrie, KD, LBJ...not necessarily.

[darthur]

Isn't committing a ton of fouls bad defense?

It's definitely unwise defense.

"No defense" normally implies people just being lazy, which I don't think is happening. It sure isn't a pretty game though. Curry has just been awful after a strong start.

[LasVegas]

It's definitely unwise defense.

"No defense" normally implies people just being lazy, which I don't think is happening. It sure isn't a pretty game though. Curry has just been awful after a strong start.

I'll tell you what, I'm impressed with the warriors ability to protect their lead in this series so far. Every time Cleveland comes close, the warriors just turn it on and go back up by 10.

[Troublemaker]

Halftime. GSW 67, Cavs 64.

Cleveland really, really needs to emerge victorious in this game. They've played so much better than in Game 1. Playing Love and Frye at center more has helped open up the offense and limit turnovers; they actually outscored GSW in 2Q because they only had 2 turnovers. It'll be interesting to see if Tristan plays much in 2H and for the rest of the series, really. And on defense, they finally started allowing Lebron to play free safety, where he's much more disruptive. To do that, they finally stuck Shump on Durant. I don't know if Shump can really hold down KD (huge height difference) but it's better than having Lebron wasted guarding him.

Of course, Cavs starting lineup goes against these adjustments. Tristan would be in the game, and Lebron would be guarding Durant. So, I wouldn't expect the starting lineup to get too much run.

[moonpie23]

as a huge cavs fan, it's just bumming me out....no matter what the cavs do, the warriors just run back down and score.....


unless the cavs can get some stops, i just dont see them getting this win....

[Troublemaker]

Wow, both teams going super small now. Lebron at C, Durant at C.

Neither side willing to be out-smalled by the other.

[dukelifer]

Wow, both teams going super small now. Lebron at C, Durant at C.

Nice Cavs run there - beautiful pass by Lebron to Kyrie. Cav's big three need to be spectacular in the 4th quarter. It is possible but not going to be easy.

[Rich]

Tyronn Lue always looks like he's about to say something, but never does.

[dukelifer]

Nice Cavs run there - beautiful pass by Lebron to Kyrie. Cav's big three need to be spectacular in the 4th quarter. It is possible but not going to be easy.

And just like that it is a double digit lead by the Warriors.

[darthur]

This is about a frenetic game as I've ever seen.

I love plays like the Curry->Livingston no-look pass before the break there where I don't even understand what happened until the ball goes in the net.

Fun fact: Curry has a good shot at a quadruple double. :)

[Troublemaker]

lol, Coach K would love coaching in the NBA these days. I repeat: Durant at center vs Lebron at center lineups.

[Duke79UNLV77]

Cavs have hit the panic button.

[dukelifer]

Cavs have hit the panic button.

The Warriors are hitting shots from 8 feet behind the three point line. Just not fair when Curry is on.

[Dr. Rosenrosen]

I don't know what you call those so-calls screens the warriors are setting out top. They look like well sustained blocks at the line of scrimmage. They're certainly nothing close to a legal basketball screen.

[darthur]

The Warriors are hitting shots from 8 feet behind the three point line. Just not fair when Curry is on.

He's playing confidently and aggressively, but his shooting isn't even really on that much.

He's shooting 3 for 10, well below his average, and has missed several completely wide open ones. It's just his percentages on open super-long 3s isn't that much less than his percentage on normal 3s.

[dukelifer]

He's playing confidently and aggressively, but his shooting isn't even really on that much.

He's shooting 3 for 10, well below his average, and has missed several completely wide open ones. It's just his percentages on open super-long 3s isn't that much less than his percentage on normal 3s.
Only starting watching since the 3rd quarter where he made 2. Now Thompson is making his threes.

[elvis14]

Finally! They are finally starting to pull away. Thank goodness.

Also, I've watched KD for years and I really think his defense is much improved and it's making a difference.

[kAzE]

Well, that's ball game. The Cavs better win both games at home. Warriors will win in 5 if they take one in Cleveland.

Dunno what people are talking about saying KD can't defend. He's been the best defensive player on the floor in both games.