Duke's Really Gifted Point Guards

[ice-9]

Coach K’s best teams have always featured a really gifted point guard. Think Tommy Amaker, Bobby Hurley, Jon Scheyer, Kyrie Irving when healthy and Tyus Jones.

I don't often disagree with the articles out front, but the above statement had me do a double take.

Jon Scheyer is a great player, but calling him a "really gifted point guard" is stretching it. Scheyer is, again, a GREAT player, but only a serviceable point guard. He had decent stats, sure, but just watch the games and it's quite obvious he's primarily asked to bring up the ball and make the safe pass. He's not the kind of point guard that truly initiates the offense, breaks defenses down and transforms average teammates into high percentage dunkers/shooters.

I'm half expecting Jumbo to jump out here and eviscerate me.

Kyrie Irving was phenomenal in the few games he played, but IMO you need more than 11 games to be part of any list of great Duke point guards.

Chris Duhon, for example, is a player who belongs on that list.

While Jay Williams isn't a natural distributor the way CDu is, there's no denying he's still a gifted point guard that made his team go.

These are just two examples that jump to mind -- I'm sure there's more.

While Scheyer will be on my list of favorite Duke players, he wouldn't be on my list of gifted point guards.

[Olympic Fan]

I don't often disagree with the articles out front, but the above statement had me do a double take.

Jon Scheyer is a great player, but calling him a "really gifted point guard" is stretching it. Scheyer is, again, a GREAT player, but only a serviceable point guard. He had decent stats, sure, but just watch the games and it's quite obvious he's primarily asked to bring up the ball and make the safe pass. He's not the kind of point guard that truly initiates the offense, breaks defenses down and transforms average teammates into high percentage dunkers/shooters.

I'm half expecting Jumbo to jump out here and eviscerate me.

Kyrie Irving was phenomenal in the few games he played, but IMO you need more than 11 games to be part of any list of great Duke point guards.

Chris Duhon, for example, is a player who belongs on that list.

While Jay Williams isn't a natural distributor the way CDu is, there's no denying he's still a gifted point guard that made his team go.

These are just two examples that jump to mind -- I'm sure there's more.

While Scheyer will be on my list of favorite Duke players, he wouldn't be on my list of gifted point guards.

Agree that Scheyer was a great player, but not a great point guard.

And I agree that Chris Duhon should be on any list of great Duke point guards (people forget his shoulder injury in 2004 -- if he's healthy, Duke clearly beats Maryland for the ACC title that year and probably beats UConn and wins the national title).

But I disagree about Duhon vs. Jason Williams. People forget what a great distributor Jay-Will. His career average of 6.0 assists per game is second only to Bobby Hurley (7.7 apg) and just ahead of third-place Chris Duhon (5.7 apg).

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

I would put N.Smitty in the next tier, but at the top of the next tier. Good PG, good leader, gritty player.

[Olympic Fan]

I would put N.Smitty in the next tier, but at the top of the next tier. Good PG, good leader, gritty player.

Smith is an interesting "point guard"

As a freshman, his primary role was a backup point guard averaging 15 minutes a game -- he did a very good job in that role.

As a sophomore, he won the starting point guard role and after a fairly strong start, he essentially collapsed and lost his job (to Scheyer, a combo guard). Smith suffered a concussion soon after losing his job and only came back for a few games at the end -- splitting time between a backup wing and a backup point.

As a junior, he starts as a wing and gets a few minutes as Scheyer's sub at the point (kind of like the role Grayson Allen should fill next season). He has a great year as Duke wins the national title, but gets very little time at the point.

He starts his senior year as the wing, alongside Kyrie Irving at the point. When Irving goes down after eight games, Smith moves back to the point for the first time since midway through his sophomore year (except for some very limited backup minutes in 2009 and 2010). He does a great job -- earning ACC player of the year honors, leading Duke to the ACC title and a No. 1 NCAA seed.

That stretch in 2011 -- all except the first eight games -- was the only time Smith really excelled at the point. Before that, he had some good backup minutes and one failed stretch in 2008.

He clearly belongs on the list of Duke's great players, but does one season (and not even a whole one at that) make him a great point guard?

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

Smith is an interesting "point guard"

As a freshman, his primary role was a backup point guard averaging 15 minutes a game -- he did a very good job in that role.

As a sophomore, he won the starting point guard role and after a fairly strong start, he essentially collapsed and lost his job (to Scheyer, a combo guard). Smith suffered a concussion soon after losing his job and only came back for a few games at the end -- splitting time between a backup wing and a backup point.

As a junior, he starts as a wing and gets a few minutes as Scheyer's sub at the point (kind of like the role Grayson Allen should fill next season). He has a great year as Duke wins the national title, but gets very little time at the point.

He starts his senior year as the wing, alongside Kyrie Irving at the point. When Irving goes down after eight games, Smith moves back to the point for the first time since midway through his sophomore year (except for some very limited backup minutes in 2009 and 2010). He does a great job -- earning ACC player of the year honors, leading Duke to the ACC title and a No. 1 NCAA seed.

That stretch in 2011 -- all except the first eight games -- was the only time Smith really excelled at the point. Before that, he had some good backup minutes and one failed stretch in 2008.

He clearly belongs on the list of Duke's great players, but does one season (and not even a whole one at that) make him a great point guard?

Well, that's why I put him in that next tier I guess. Also, you say not even one whole season as PG, I look at your notes and say "almost three seasons at PG duty."

Toe-mah-toe, I guess.

[niveklaen]

Nolan's one season should count if Tyus's and Irving's do.

I would add Avery to the list.

Wojo won NDPOY but never seems to get credit as a great pg

[MChambers]

Nolan's one season should count if Tyus's and Irving's do.

I would add Avery to the list.

Wojo won NDPOY but never seems to get credit as a great pg

These discussions tend to overlook defense. Nolan was our PG on defense in both 2010 and 2011, and was great at taking the other team's PG out of the offense. Wojo was similar, but didn't create as much as some others. Duhon usually took the other team's PG, even when he played with Williams.

I saw this simply to confuse the debate! What do we mean when we refer to a point guard?

Hurley was the best I've seen on both ends of the floor,

[DallasDevil]

I think it is fair to say Scheyer was a gifted player, and he did play point guard at the end of his career, so it's not entirely unreasonable to say he was a "gifted point guard" even though he wasn't a prototypical point guard and was a more natural shooting guard or combo guard. The thing I remember most about Scheyer was that despite his limited athleticism (comparatively speaking), he had such high basketball IQ. He just seemed to always make the right play at the right time and was so steady during the 2010 title run. His 5 assists per game and 3:1 assist to turnover ratio his senior year are also solid point guard stats.

[jimsumner]

Put me in the Scheyer camp. I don't much care who looks like a point guard. I'm more interested in results.

William Avery looked like a point guard? Okay. He averaged five assists per game in his only year as a starting point guard.

Scheyer averaged five assists per game in his only full season as a starting point guard.

But Avery averaged his five for a team that scored 91.8 points per game.

Scheyer averaged his five for a team that scored a modest--by Duke standards-77 points per game. And Avery had 50 percent more turnovers than Scheyer. And Scheyer was Duke's leading scorer and had only two other quality scorers on the court with him. It's not like he got lots of cheap assists dumping it in to Lance Thomas or Brian Zoubek.

Scheyer is fifth in career turnover/assist ratio at Duke, ahead of lots of guys who looked more like point guards. His 2.98:1 a/to ratio in 2010 is the second-best single-season mark in Duke history.

If it looks like a duck . . .

Scheyer in 2010 looked a lot like an elite point guard to me.

Still does.

[Tommac]

Back in the day, Dick Devenzio was a great point guard.

[Indoor66]

Back in the day, Dick Devenzio was a great point guard.

So was Steve Vacendak in his day.

[Tappan Zee Devil]

So was Steve Vacendak in his day.

Vacendak was special

- as was that entire Lewis, Marin, Riedy, Verga, Vacendak team

[Olympic Fan]

So was Steve Vacendak in his day.

Not really ... Vacendak played forward (off the bench) as sophomore in 1964 -- a team that took off when Denny Ferguson took over as the starting PG.

Ferguson was the starter in 1965 as Vacendak and Bob Verga started in a three guard lineup ... with Vacendak more of a small forward.

Vacendak and Verga shared the backcourt in '66, but it's hard to say which was the point guard.

Steve Vacendak was a tough, hard-nosed guard, who did a little bit over everything, but he was not really a point guard in the way we think of the position.

As for Wojo, I disagree with MChambers about his ability to create -- he's 9th all-time in Duke history in assists per game (ahead of Avery) and second all-time in career assist-to-turnover ratio ... in addition to being NDPOY.

Two guys not mentioned so far deserve some consideration -- one is Quinn Cook, who started at the point two years, then shared the backcourt on a national title team with Tyus. He's seventh all-time in total assists and first in assist-to-turnover ration.

And Quin Snyder was the point guard on two final four teams -- he's fifth in career assists (sixth in assists per game)

[wsb3]

So was Steve Vacendak in his day.

Loved Vacendak..

[jv001]

Not really ... Vacendak played forward (off the bench) as sophomore in 1964 -- a team that took off when Denny Ferguson took over as the starting PG.

Ferguson was the starter in 1965 as Vacendak and Bob Verga started in a three guard lineup ... with Vacendak more of a small forward.

Vacendak and Verga shared the backcourt in '66, but it's hard to say which was the point guard.

Steve Vacendak was a tough, hard-nosed guard, who did a little bit over everything, but he was not really a point guard in the way we think of the position.

As for Wojo, I disagree with MChambers about his ability to create -- he's 9th all-time in Duke history in assists per game (ahead of Avery) and second all-time in career assist-to-turnover ratio ... in addition to being NDPOY.

Two guys not mentioned so far deserve some consideration -- one is Quinn Cook, who started at the point two years, then shared the backcourt on a national title team with Tyus. He's seventh all-time in total assists and first in assist-to-turnover ration.

And Quin Snyder was the point guard on two final four teams -- he's fifth in career assists (sixth in assists per game)

I thought Quin(Danny Ferry's pal) turned into a fine point guard. I remember fussing at the TV set for Quin's play early in his career. Yes sir, he became a good player and a good point guard. GoDuke!

[MChambers]

As for Wojo, I disagree with MChambers about his ability to create -- he's 9th all-time in Duke history in assists per game (ahead of Avery) and second all-time in career assist-to-turnover ratio ... in addition to being NDPOY.

I stand by my statement, based both on what I remember and the statistics. As far as stats go, Wojo averaged 3.9 assists per game for his career. He played 3263 minutes and had 505 assists, or about 6.2 per 40, on teams with serious offensive talent. What I remember was that Wojo wasn't beating anyone off the dribble regularly, but he was a smart passer and shared the ball well. But a creator? Not really.

In short, Wojo was a fine Duke player, but not much of a creator for others. His best attribute was his on the ball defense.

Am putting on my asbestos clothing as I post.

[jimsumner]

Not really ... Vacendak played forward (off the bench) as sophomore in 1964 -- a team that took off when Denny Ferguson took over as the starting PG.

Ferguson was the starter in 1965 as Vacendak and Bob Verga started in a three guard lineup ... with Vacendak more of a small forward.

Vacendak and Verga shared the backcourt in '66, but it's hard to say which was the point guard.

Steve Vacendak was a tough, hard-nosed guard, who did a little bit over everything, but he was not really a point guard in the way we think of the position.

As for Wojo, I disagree with MChambers about his ability to create -- he's 9th all-time in Duke history in assists per game (ahead of Avery) and second all-time in career assist-to-turnover ratio ... in addition to being NDPOY.

Two guys not mentioned so far deserve some consideration -- one is Quinn Cook, who started at the point two years, then shared the backcourt on a national title team with Tyus. He's seventh all-time in total assists and first in assist-to-turnover ration.

And Quin Snyder was the point guard on two final four teams -- he's fifth in career assists (sixth in assists per game)

I remember 1966 much differently. Vacendak was absolutely the point guard. Verga certainly wasn't. A shooter par excellence. But not a passer.

[fuse]

Put me in the Scheyer camp. I don't much care who looks like a point guard. I'm more interested in results.

William Avery looked like a point guard? Okay. He averaged five assists per game in his only year as a starting point guard.

Scheyer averaged five assists per game in his only full season as a starting point guard.

But Avery averaged his five for a team that scored 91.8 points per game.

Scheyer averaged his five for a team that scored a modest--by Duke standards-77 points per game. And Avery had 50 percent more turnovers than Scheyer. And Scheyer was Duke's leading scorer and had only two other quality scorers on the court with him. It's not like he got lots of cheap assists dumping it in to Lance Thomas or Brian Zoubek.

Scheyer is fifth in career turnover/assist ratio at Duke, ahead of lots of guys who looked more like point guards. His 2.98:1 a/to ratio in 2010 is the second-best single-season mark in Duke history.

If it looks like a duck . . .

Scheyer in 2010 looked a lot like an elite point guard to me.

Still does.

jimsumner says it far more eloquently and with more credibility than I could have. Not sure why "but Scheyer isn't a point guard" is even a debatable point.

[sagegrouse]

Not really ... Vacendak played forward (off the bench) as sophomore in 1964 -- a team that took off when Denny Ferguson took over as the starting PG.

Ferguson was the starter in 1965 as Vacendak and Bob Verga started in a three guard lineup ... with Vacendak more of a small forward.

Vacendak and Verga shared the backcourt in '66, but it's hard to say which was the point guard.

Steve Vacendak was a tough, hard-nosed guard, who did a little bit over everything, but he was not really a point guard in the way we think of the position.

As for Wojo, I disagree with MChambers about his ability to create -- he's 9th all-time in Duke history in assists per game (ahead of Avery) and second all-time in career assist-to-turnover ratio ... in addition to being NDPOY.

Two guys not mentioned so far deserve some consideration -- one is Quinn Cook, who started at the point two years, then shared the backcourt on a national title team with Tyus. He's seventh all-time in total assists and first in assist-to-turnover ration.

And Quin Snyder was the point guard on two final four teams -- he's fifth in career assists (sixth in assists per game)

Vacendak was a good role player as a sophomore on the 1964 national finalist. He reached his zenith, IIRC (and there is always a first time) as a senior when he was named MVP of the ACC in 1966. Interestingly enough, he was MVP without being first team All-ACC -- the ultimnate "glue guy." Ya' think that awards back in the day were done by a cabal of reporters in NC?

Kindly,sage Grouse
'The late Perfesser Denny Ferguson went into the starting lineup on the 1964 team, and Duke started winning'

[chriso]

Nolan's one season should count if Tyus's and Irving's do.

I would add Avery to the list.

Wojo won NDPOY but never seems to get credit as a great pg
I loved Avery's game. I think he would have been crazy good his junior year. In some alternate universe that next year he would be throwing alley oops to Maggette. But we probably don't win the following year if those freshmen don't get all those minutes in 2000.

[YmoBeThere]

Bobby of course, but no love for Tommy A.?

[79-77]

My all-time Duke point guards, in order:

1. Hurley. Not open for discussion.

2. Jones. He has more than a little Jason Kidd in him.

3. Jason Williams. Frequently a force of nature. Multi talented and he could score from anywhere, in bunches.

4. Amaker. Not as offensively gifted as the others on this list but a fantastic defensive player with excellent court awareness who grew as a player every year.

(Kyrie is ineligible due to low number of games in a Duke uniform.)

IMHO those 4 are a cut above the rest.

[sagegrouse]

My all-time Duke point guards, in order:

1. Hurley. Not open for discussion.

2. Jones. He has more than a little Jason Kidd in him.

3. Jason Williams. Frequently a force of nature. Multi talented and he could score from anywhere, in bunches.

4. Amaker. Not as offensively gifted as the others on this list but a fantastic defensive player with excellent court awareness who grew as a player every year.

(Kyrie is ineligible due to low number of games in a Duke uniform.)

IMHO those 4 are a cut above the rest.

It's not a long list of point guards since Amaker:
Amaker
Quin Snyder
Hurley
[Grant or Capel in 1994]
Capel in 1995 and 1996, although Collins had more assists in 1996 (really?)
Wojo
Avery
JWill
Duhon
[Ewing or Dockery? in 2005]
Paulus
Scheyer [2009 and 2010]
Nolan [2011]
[Curry or Austin in 2013]
Cook
Tyus
DThornton
FJackson + ??

Some talent on this list, leading Devils to five NC's and 14 ACC titles

[ice-9]

jimsumner says it far more eloquently and with more credibility than I could have. Not sure why "but Scheyer isn't a point guard" is even a debatable point.

I believe the debate is whether Scheyer is a really gifted point guard.

He was obviously a good one. Gifted though? If not for the eye injury, would he have been able to guide a team in the NBA as PG?

[Indoor66]

I believe the debate is whether Scheyer is a really gifted point guard.

Is there any relationship between cause & effect? Gifted is as gifted does.

[Clay Feet POF]

Wojo won NDPOY but never seems to get credit as a great pg

Yep, Almost all talk Defense, Few Vote Defense.

[jimsumner]

I believe the debate is whether Scheyer is a really gifted point guard.

He was obviously a good one. Gifted though? If not for the eye injury, would he have been able to guide a team in the NBA as PG?

How many Duke point guards have guided an NBA team for any appreciable length of time?

Did Amaker? Did Snyder? Did Capel? Did Wojo? Did Avery? Did Paulus? Did Smith?

Hurley and Williams have enormous and tragic asterisks to their NBA careers.

Dawkins played mainly off the ball at Duke but had a solid career in the NBA. Could have been better had he not blown out a knee early.

Duhon had a long career, mostly as a backup.

Rivers may be duplicating Duhon's career arc. But, like Dawkins, he played mainly off the ball at Duke.

Cook spent a year plus in the D-League and Jones has had trouble getting off the bench.

So, if we're looking at guys who primarily played point guard at Duke and later became NBA starters, we're looking at Irving and maybe Duhon.

Does that rule out the rest as gifted point guards?

As an aside, K has had more NBA success with wings (Hill, Maggette, Redick, Deng, Parker, Hood, et. al.) and posts than with point guards. Remember when Duke was point-guard U and K couldn't recruit/develop big men? But Ferry, Laettner, Brand, Boozer and Mason have had good to great NBA careers and guys like Abdelnaby, Parks, S. Williams, McRoberts and Miles have had success equal to or superior to all but a few ex-Duke point guards. (Too early to tell on Okafor).

[flyingdutchdevil]

How many Duke point guards have guided an NBA team for any appreciable length of time?

Did Amaker? Did Snyder? Did Capel? Did Wojo? Did Avery? Did Paulus? Did Smith?

Hurley and Williams have enormous and tragic asterisks to their NBA careers.

Dawkins played mainly off the ball at Duke but had a solid career in the NBA. Could have been better had he not blown out a knee early.

Duhon had a long career, mostly as a backup.

Rivers may be duplicating Duhon's career arc. But, like Dawkins, he played mainly off the ball at Duke.

Cook spent a year plus in the D-League and Jones has had trouble getting off the bench.

So, if we're looking at guys who primarily played point guard at Duke and later became NBA starters, we're looking at Irving and maybe Duhon.

Does that rule out the rest as gifted point guards?

As an aside, K has had more NBA success with wings (Hill, Maggette, Deng, Parker, Hood, et. al.) and posts than with point guards. Remember when Duke was point-guard U and K couldn't recruit/develop big men? But Ferry, Laettner, Brand, Boozer and Mason have had good to great NBA careers and guys like Abdelnaby, Parks, S. Williams, McRoberts and Miles have had success equal to or superior to all but a few ex-Duke point guards. (Too early to tell on Okafor).

Paulus? Really? I mean, I agree with your overall message, but I don't think your point is enhanced by using Paulus as an example. Paulus went from really solid freshman year to excellent sophomore year to good junior year to horrific senior year.

[jimsumner]

Paulus? Really? I mean, I agree with your overall message, but I don't think your point is enhanced by using Paulus as an example. Paulus went from really solid freshman year to excellent sophomore year to good junior year to horrific senior year.


Paulus was ranked as the number one point-guard in his high-school class and led the ACC in assists as a freshman. At that point, people absolutely thought he was an elite point guard. And he did make third-team All-ACC as a junior, becoming more of a shooter, less of a passer.

Paulus was in fact an All-ACC point guard. Strange but true.

His senior year was a train wreck. But he was solid to very good for three years and more to the point (no pun intended) unlike Scheyer, he was viewed a pure point guard early in his career, someone who passed the look test.

Including or not including Paulus is beside my main point, which is that using NBA success as a barometer of college success is a flawed concept.

[niveklaen]

It's not a long list of point guards since Amaker:
Amaker
Quin Snyder
Hurley
[Grant or Capel in 1994]
Capel in 1995 and 1996, although Collins had more assists in 1996 (really?)
Wojo
Avery
JWill
Duhon
[Ewing or Dockery? in 2005]
Paulus
Scheyer [2009 and 2010]
Nolan [2011]
[Curry or Austin in 2013]
Cook
Tyus
DThornton
FJackson + ??

Some talent on this list, leading Devils to five NC's and 14 ACC titles

I have been told repeatedly that Matt Jones was our PG for the last two years...

...conversely, our leading assist man the last two years has been Grayson - at 3.5 apg each year - which is lousy for a pg, but is better than anyone on Duke's teams in 2012, 2009, or 2008.