Welcome to Duke, Trevon Duval!

[Native]

Duval commits to Duke with a Players' Tribune video (https://twitter.com/playerstribune/status/864103463755464704).

[MPandolfi]

Happy Monday!

[NM Duke Fan]

Of immense importance, what a great headline to start the day! Amps up the potential for a genuine top 10 team next year, with enough ball handling, distributing and shooting.

[kAzE]

Good news to wake up to!

Welcome to Duke Trevon!!

[bob blue devil]

welcome to duke, trevon.

[arnie]

welcome to duke, trevon.

Good news and glad he didn't need a pre-announcement.

[kAzE]

I guess we know why it took so long now, that little cartoon probably wasn't done yet ;)

[brlftz]

Yes!!! Welcome, Trevon!

[toughbuff1]

Fantastic news. Welcome to Duke!!!

[Mike Corey]

Welcome to Duke. Hope it's the best year of your life so far.

[Billy Dat]

Excellent news...a tumultuous early off-season ends on a very high note. Welcome to Duke, Trevon...squeeze as much juice out of the orange as you can.

[DevilDan2016]

Welcome aboard, glad to have the PG that we needed

[budwom]

We now will have one of the most interesting rosters we've ever had....can't remember when we had fewer returning veterans (who play).
Chemistry will be key, along with LEI of course (lower extremity issues).

[Jackson]

Really needed him! Huge piece to the puzzle. Duval, Allen, Trent, Carter and Bolden is an amazing starting lineup at least on paper!

[devildeac]

That's pretty cool. And, waaaaay shorter than T. Parker's manifesto :rolleyes:.

Welcome!

[MChambers]

Excellent news...a tumultuous early off-season ends on a very high note. Welcome to Duke, Trevon...squeeze as much juice out of the orange as you can.

Agreed, except that the off-season hasn't ended. I still have hope that Bamba comes to Duke.

[curtis325]

Just what the doctor ordered.

[DevilDan2016]

I've heard that he was taking the only remaining scholarship that we have; assuming if that is the case than no room for Bamba

[DukeFanSince1990]

The animated announcement was very well done. Very impressive.

[Jackson]

Agreed, except that the off-season hasn't ended. I still have hope that Bamba comes to Duke.

I love Bamba's talent. Not sure how he would affect team chemistry. Seems like a good kid but how would he mesh with Bolden? I'm just so happy to have Duval. Finally feels like next year will be a real team now.

[FerryFor50]

Great news, but did anyone else feel a little dirty hearing he was traveling with AAU teams at age six?

[Ima Facultiwyfe]

Agreed, except that the off-season hasn't ended. I still have hope that Bamba comes to Duke.
Me tooooooooo. Let's hope he has been just waiting to see what PG would be out there finding him. Now he knows.
Love, Ima

[ChillinDuke]

There it is!!!

Welcome, Trevon!

We are back on solid ground for next year. Big pick up.

- Chillin

[flyingdutchdevil]

Best news I've heard in a while. Don't care he's an OAD, just care he can dribble the ball up the court and try to play defense (focus on the word "try". Doesn't matter if he succeeds, just want to see effort).

Trevon, I'm changing my profile pic for you. You are our most important recruit since Kyrie.

[Troublemaker]

Welcome to Duke, Trevon! Nice video and narration, including pace of narration. (Important if you're going to announce on a Monday morning!)



I guess we know why it took so long now, that little cartoon probably wasn't done yet ;)

Had to wait until after (Derek) Jeter's jersey retirement yesterday. Didn't want to upstage the Players Tribune's founder.


I've heard that he was taking the only remaining scholarship that we have; assuming if that is the case than no room for Bamba

You were given incorrect info. Including Trevon, Duke now has 11 scholarship players. So two open slots.

[Edouble]

Wow, great to see this news! Haven't even had coffee yet!

[CrazyNotCrazie]

Awesome news - exactly what we need to fill out the team next year - I'm very excited to have him join the Duke family.

In his video he referenced "Hungry and Humble." That was Kyrie's mantra - I believe he has it tattooed on him. I'm wondering if Kyrie's experience as a one and done point guard at Duke had some influence on Duval.

[dukebluesincebirth]

We always seem to have so much trouble keeping opposing PGs out of the lane... now they'll have to stop ours!! Having a PG like Duval drastically improves this team. Not only can he add points, but he'll create so many open looks and dunks for Grayson/Bolden/Carter. He also has the speed and control to push the ball in transition. I hope he'll have the desire to play hard defense, as we'll be relying heavily on him on both ends of the court. This gives me some real excitement for next year! Welcome to Duke Trevon!!! LETS GO DEVILS!

[Billy Dat]

Wow, great to see this news! Haven't even had coffee yet!

This announcement is the equivalent of a double espresso...as I expect Trevon will be for our transition offense.

How is Grayson going to relate to all of these kids? He better start brushing up on the latest [insert whatever makes sense]. The gulf between 22 and 18 in college basketball may as well be decades. In all seriousness, Grayson, when we secure the rebound, just start sprinting down the wing and good things will happen.

[Duke76]

The animated announcement was very well done. Very impressive.

"and for now and forever a Duke Blue Devil"...pretty much sums it up!!

[Troublemaker]

In his video he referenced "Hungry and Humble." That was Kyrie's mantra - I believe he has it tattooed on him. I'm wondering if Kyrie's experience as a one and done point guard at Duke had some influence on Duval.

Definitely. I've watched/read a bunch of Duval interviews, and he commonly references Kyrie as one of his favorite players growing up. In practice, like Kyrie, he has great dribbling skills, though not quite at Kyrie's level yet.


This announcement is the equivalent of a double espresso...as I expect Trevon will be for our transition offense.

Oh my gosh, that's what I might be most excited for. Last season, Duke's fastbreak offense at times helped the opponent more than it helped Duke. With Trevon on board, I'm hoping a Duke fastbreak will be feared by all opponents.

[MChambers]

Awesome news - exactly what we need to fill out the team next year - I'm very excited to have him join the Duke family.

In his video he referenced "Hungry and Humble." That was Kyrie's mantra - I believe he has it tattooed on him. I'm wondering if Kyrie's experience as a one and done point guard at Duke had some influence on Duval.

Let's hope for more than 11 games at Duke!

[Dr. Rosenrosen]

Let's hope for more than 11 games at Duke!
If you're going to post something like that, can you please give us all some notice so we can first cross our fingers, knock on some wood, grab our lucky rabbit feet, cast a spell, etc.?

[miramar]

I know we have lost 81% of our minutes from last year and that we have to cut down on the number of one and dones, but for the time being we have the #1 PF, SG, and PG coming in, along with Grayson and the #1 C from last year, as well some quality guys who should stay around for a while. Can't wait for November.

[texasdevil06]

What great news on a Monday morning! Good luck, young man.

Could this be the last piece in the "business decision" puzzle for Mo Bamba? Hope is still alive (for me, at least.)

[79-77]

OK, I just watched this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tcVKvvOfsr4

I don't think Duke has ever had a PG like this kid. Size, strength, outstanding athleticism, not much of a jump shot, likes to fly down the lane and dunk, good passer but more of a lead guard than a distributor.

The comparable I saw mentioned somewhere was Derrick Rose. While I don't think any of us wants 2017 Derrick Rose, 2010 Derrick Rose was a monster. And based on his announcement video, he seems like a pretty good kid -- not a nut case like Rose.

I'm going to predict that the kid is coachable and will play hard on D -- and that next year's team is going to be a lot of fun.

GTHC!

[elvis14]

What a great way to start my week. A couple of months ago I watched some video on this kid and I've really wanted to him ever since. Good luck to anyone that has to guard this guy.

We've had some foster puppies in the house for a couple of weeks. Today is the day they go back to the shelter to get adopted out (Saving Grace is great). So it's been a sad morning watching my kids say goodbye to these little fur balls. This announcement really helps even out my day. I'll have to re-watch that announcement video in about an hour after I drop off the pups (no those are not tears...I'm a grown man...I have onions in my truck).

[miramar]

OK, I just watched this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tcVKvvOfsr4

GTHC!

They're going to have to park an ambulance outside of Cameron for all of the ankles this kid is going to break.

[Edouble]

They're going to have to park an ambulance outside of Cameron for all of the ankles this kid is going to break.

Legs, arms, clavicles... there will be many broken body parts from this kid just getting nasty on the dunks over ACC opponents.

[flyingdutchdevil]

They're going to have to park an ambulance outside of Cameron for all of the ankles this kid is going to break.

No, our players do that to themselves (sorry, I had to. Hopefully this is the year but doesn't run into any lower-extremity issues).

[wsb3]

Woken by a sick puppy early this morning. Sitting in a dental chair..

The day just turned remarkably brighter.

[DukeFanSince1990]

Let's hope for more than 11 games at Duke!

You can see yourself out sir. :)

[duke74]

Duval commits to Duke with a Players' Tribune video (https://twitter.com/playerstribune/status/864103463755464704).

Great video. And I learned something (maybe I should have known it...). BB DNA from Queens! My home turf.

Just another reason to root for the kid. Welcome Tre!

[budwom]

Woken by a sick puppy early this morning. Sitting in a dental chair..

The day just turned remarkably brighter.

speaking of dogs and dentists...my hygienist had a black lab with a tooth problem, and after hours the dentist (lab lover) put
him in the chair, x-rayed him and fixed him right up.

[flyingdutchdevil]

Is Trevon a near clone of Dennis Smith? Hyper-athletic, excellent handle, ability to get to the rim at will, shaky shot (but likely better than advertised), better than advertised distribution skills, jury out on defense?

Kinda sounds like it, right?

The Kyrie comparisons aren't right to me because Kyrie wasn't this athletic but had one of the best shots in college. Duval's athleticism is off the charts for college.

[weezie]

Trevon was "straight crossing those toddlers up!!"

Love him already! Go Trevon, GO!

[kAzE]

OK, I just watched this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tcVKvvOfsr4

I don't think Duke has ever had a PG like this kid. Size, strength, outstanding athleticism, not much of a jump shot, likes to fly down the lane and dunk, good passer but more of a lead guard than a distributor.

The comparable I saw mentioned somewhere was Derrick Rose. While I don't think any of us wants 2017 Derrick Rose, 2010 Derrick Rose was a monster. And based on his announcement video, he seems like a pretty good kid -- not a nut case like Rose.

I'm going to predict that the kid is coachable and will play hard on D -- and that next year's team is going to be a lot of fun.

GTHC!

I believe I may have been the poster who brought up the D Rose comparison in the 2017 recruiting thread, but I think I need to revise that a little bit. Because of Tre's enormous volume of dunks in his highlight tapes, it's easy to assume that he's a score first point guard. This is actually not the case. I did some more digging, and he's actually a pass-first guy, believe it or not. He's a perfect fit for this team, and we desperately needed him. Thank God he picked Duke.

And yeah, I would agree, we've never had a kid like this. We've had pass first point guards, and we've had crazy explosive athletes, but never both in one package. Not like this.

[chriso]

Happy Monday!

To quote Kevin McCalister from Home Alone "aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaahh". Now we're ready to rumble my friends! :) :) Trevon is the straw that stirs the drink. Super news.

[bluedev_92]

Welcome Trevon! Great to have another Delaware Guy on board!! (it's been a while!)

[kAzE]

Is Trevon a near clone of Dennis Smith? Hyper-athletic, excellent handle, ability to get to the rim at will, shaky shot (but likely better than advertised), better than advertised distribution skills, jury out on defense?

Kinda sounds like it, right?

The Kyrie comparisons aren't right to me because Kyrie wasn't this athletic but had one of the best shots in college. Duval's athleticism is off the charts for college.

Nah, I don't think Smith or Kyrie are the right comparison. Or even D-Rose. Tre has excellent measurables on defense, which none of those guys are known for. And he's a distributor first, while all of those guys are scorers.

I think my new best NBA comp is John Wall. Tre's got that type of size and defensive potential, with his 6'9.5" wingspan (Dennis Smith has a 6'3" wingspan) and explosive athleticism. He's an inch shorter, and might not be as fast as Wall, but they are both pass first guys, and have similar athletic ability.

[Dr. Rosenrosen]

His passing skills remind me of one Pistol Pete Maravich. Very exciting! Welcome Trevon!

[moonpie23]

holy moley!!!!! What great news...... BRING IT YOUNG MAN!!!! Welcome to the fracas......



Loved the cartoon.....loved his method of announcing...



eff HWMFNSNBM......

[79-77]

Nah, I don't think Smith or Kyrie are the right comparison. Or even D-Rose. Tre has excellent measurables on defense, which none of those guys are known for. And he's a distributor first, while all of those guys are scorers.

I think my new best NBA comp is John Wall. Tre's got that type of size and defensive potential, with his 6'9.5" wingspan (Dennis Smith has a 6'3" wingspan) and explosive athleticism. He's an inch shorter, and might not be as fast as Wall, but they are both pass first guys, and have similar athletic ability.


I just got what the Frenchies refer to as a frisson.

[azzefkram]

I really like this addition. Welcome to Duke Trevon.

[MChambers]

You can see yourself out sir. :)

In my defense, I was replying to a post that stated "I'm wondering if Kyrie's experience as a one and done point guard at Duke had some influence on Duval."

All I could think was I sure hope not!

[MarkD83]

OK...I am less negative now. Trevon handling the ball and Grayson being able to move to a more natural shooting guard position....Lots of back-ups in both the back court and front court...

I still hope to see the Easter Bunny / Santa Claus and a 9 or 10 man rotation....

[Indoor66]

OK...I am less negative now. Trevon handling the ball and Grayson being able to move to a more natural shooting guard position...Lots of back-ups in both the back court and front court...

I still hope to see the Easter Bunny / Santa Claus and a 9 or 10 man rotation...

I bet on the Easter Bunny. 😂😊😎

[NSDukeFan]

OK, I just watched this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tcVKvvOfsr4

I don't think Duke has ever had a PG like this kid. Size, strength, outstanding athleticism, not much of a jump shot, likes to fly down the lane and dunk, good passer but more of a lead guard than a distributor.

The comparable I saw mentioned somewhere was Derrick Rose. While I don't think any of us wants 2017 Derrick Rose, 2010 Derrick Rose was a monster. And based on his announcement video, he seems like a pretty good kid -- not a nut case like Rose.

I'm going to predict that the kid is coachable and will play hard on D -- and that next year's team is going to be a lot of fun.

GTHC!

Oh my! He should be fun to watch. Thank goodness I don't have to suffer through a season with a team only projected to be top 20. 😉

[devildeac]

OK...I am less negative now. Trevon handling the ball and Grayson being able to move to a more natural shooting guard position...Lots of back-ups in both the back court and front court...

I still hope to see the Easter Bunny / Santa Claus and a 9 or 10 man rotation...

Elvis will gladly take you, EB and SC out to dinner with his unicorn and pot of gold. ;)

[camion]

I bet on the Easter Bunny. 😂😊😎

I hear the Bunny has hops.

[devildeac]

I hear the Bunny has hops.

And great quickness.

[proelitedota]

All these comparisons to drose is making me nervous. 😐😅

[Indoor66]

And great quickness.

But he lacks endurance. That will kill his minutes.

[atoomer0881]

This was the absolute best news to wake up to this morning. Here I was hoping today we'd get the announcement of when Duval was going to be making his announcement. This was so much better!

Between having Duval next year, hopefully getting Tre Jones for 2018-19 and beyond, and having Jordan Goldwire, here's hoping we don't have any "lack of a true PG" issues for the next couple of years! And a little health on our side wouldn't be too much to ask for after what we went through the last 2 seasons haha.

[atoomer0881]

But he lacks endurance. That will kill his minutes.

Wait, but I thought all bunnies have endurance...
https://img.memesuper.com/8175c741c19bf1f274bf952a8116895a_the-energizer-bunny-energizer-bunny-meme_725-267.png

[Indoor66]

Wait, but I thought all bunnies have endurance...
https://img.memesuper.com/8175c741c19bf1f274bf952a8116895a_the-energizer-bunny-energizer-bunny-meme_725-267.png

Not in races. You know that. Only over at the dump do they not know that.

[flyingdutchdevil]

...will be the best dunking backcourt in college. Maybe ever at Duke.

Grayson: complete and utter disregard for his or any else's safety. Makes more amazing dunks. Witness: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nHMebeKHpRc

Duval: Hard to imagine how you get this much athleticism in one package. Witness: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cew99uO-1UA

[atoomer0881]

Not in races. You know that. Only over at the dump do they not know that.

Crap, silly me. You're right haha

[sagegrouse]

Is this the way the roster for next year is shaping up?

Recruits:
PF 6-10 Wendell Carter
PG 6-03 Trevon Duval
SG 6-05 Gary Trent Jr.
SF 6-07 Jordan Tucker
SG 6-05 Alex O'Connell
SG 6-02 Jordan Goldwire

Returning:
G 6-05 Grayson Allen
C 6-11 Marques Bolden
C 7-00 Antonio Vrankovich
F 6-10 Javin DeLaurier
F 6-07 Jack White
F 6-08 Justin Robinson
G 6-05 Brennan Besser

Plus, there's room for C 7-0 Mohamed Bamba.

Assumption is we will start Grayson, Marques, Wendell, Trevon and Gary? One senior, one sophomore, and three freshmen.

[miramar]

Yes, it seems that the starting five could be Allen, Bolden, Carter, Duval, and Trent. That is a great unit, but all five could be gone a year from now, so we have to enjoy it while it lasts.

If Trevon is indeed a one and done, then that would be the fourth straight year that a freshman guard leaves after one season (previously Tyus Jones, Thornton, and Jackson).

May you live in interesting times and all that, I guess.

[OZZIE4DUKE]

Welcome to Duke! May your success exceed your dreams! LGD GTHc!

[gam7]

Is Trevon a near clone of Dennis Smith? Hyper-athletic, excellent handle, ability to get to the rim at will, shaky shot (but likely better than advertised), better than advertised distribution skills, jury out on defense?

Kinda sounds like it, right?

The Kyrie comparisons aren't right to me because Kyrie wasn't this athletic but had one of the best shots in college. Duval's athleticism is off the charts for college.

The two similarities to Kyrie that I see are (1) a great behind the back crossover, and (2) craftiness around the rim. The shot is nowhere close to Kyrie's, but when people talk about players who are able to just get wherever they want on the floor, Tre is that guy.

[flyingdutchdevil]

Yes, it seems that the starting five could be Allen, Bolden, Carter, Duval, and Trent. That is a great unit, but all five could be gone a year from now, so we have to enjoy it while it lasts.

If Trevon is indeed a one and done, then that would be the fourth straight year that a freshman guard leaves after one season (previously Tyus Jones, Thornton, and Jackson).

May you live in interesting times and all that, I guess.

Two things:

1) I don't think it's "could be". Right now, assuming Bamba doesn't come and there are no injuries, it's "most definitely".

2) I think at least 4 of the starting 5 will not be at Duke for '18-'19. Enjoy em while you can.

[gam7]

Two things:

1) I don't think it's "could be". Right now, assuming Bamba doesn't come and there are no injuries, it's "most definitely".

2) I think at least 4 of the starting 5 will not be at Duke for '18-'19. Enjoy em while you can.

This is probably the right assumption on Bamba, but this thought just occurred to me: didn't he say earlier in his recruitment that he did not want to be stuck under the basket and be more like a wing player (which seems wrong - kind of like Knox wanting to be a shooting guard)? Guess what, we have an open spot on the wing. Would it be weirder that Knox will be a 2 in college, or Bamba a 3?

Having said that, even though Coach K lets his plants grow all crazy or whatever, this would be a big-time stretch...

[BD80]

I've heard that he was taking the only remaining scholarship that we have; assuming if that is the case than no room for Bamba

3 OAD'S. 1 other early entry. 3 grads. 1 transfer. Room for 8.


"and for now and forever a Duke Blue Devil"...pretty much sums it up!!

He gets it. Welcome Trevon!

[elvis14]

Elvis will gladly take you, EB and SC out to dinner with his unicorn and pot of gold. ;)

As happy as I am about the Duval signing, that pot-o-gold will be shared, as soon as I find it. I just hope MarkD83 doesn't hate me for that crack (but an 11 man rotation, come on)!

I just realized that I told myself I would not get all fired up about our recruiting success and projections after this last season....apparently I lied to myself. I'm all fired up! Here comes Duke!

[Hauerwas]

K always thrives with a true PG at the helm and Duval's handles, quickness, and pass first mentality are things we just haven't had the last two years. Plus, he seems to have a little nastiness in him which nobody on last year's team really had except Grayson. I always felt like they didn't mind losing, which is never a good quality for a team.

Duval will free up Allen and Trent to be playmakers and I can see Carter and Boldin making a killing off drive, dish, and dunks, again, something we just haven't had the last two years. We've lacked a ball hawker and a guy that, when the shot clock is expiring, can just take it to the hole and make something happen. Duval is that guy, and he seems to have the hops and athleticism to finish at the rim himself. He can jump higher than Kyrie. and seems to be on track to have the same kind of handles that Kyrie had in college.

he pounds the ball into the ground too much, but so does everyone in HS.

Welcome to the program.

[ChillinDuke]

Two things:

1) I don't think it's "could be". Right now, assuming Bamba doesn't come and there are no injuries, it's "most definitely".

2) I think at least 4 of the starting 5 will not be at Duke for '18-'19. Enjoy em while you can.

Yeah, and 5 out of 5 is a strong possibility.

I'm not going to worry about that right now because you gotta play with what ya got. But man, losing the full starting lineup AGAIN would suck.

- Chillin

[Olympic Fan]

Duval's arrival solidifies the starting lineup in away it hasn't been solidified since 2014-15.

A true point guard. Two big athletic wings and two very talented post players.

It actually fits for a change.

The starting lineup is so strong (on paper) that I think the "deep bench" advocates are going to be very disappointed next year. There is a huge dropoff between the starting five and the next five. In fact, as of now, the biggest question mark will be developing a post backup (DeLaurier?) and at least one, maybe two wing backups (Tucker? O'Connell? White?).

I suspect that the starting five will play every minute they can in competitive games.

[Henderson]

Dear Mr. Duval:

I was watching tapes of you this morning, and my ankle broke.

Welcome!

[sagegrouse]

Duval's arrival solidifies the starting lineup in away it hasn't been solidified since 2014-15.

A true point guard. Two big athletic wings and two very talented post players.

It actually fits for a change.

The starting lineup is so strong (on paper) that I think the "deep bench" advocates are going to be very disappointed next year. There is a huge dropoff between the starting five and the next five. In fact, as of now, the biggest question mark will be developing a post backup (DeLaurier?) and at least one, maybe two wing backups (Tucker? O'Connell? White?).

I suspect that the starting five will play every minute they can in competitive games.

If "the starting five will play every minute" means there are no injuries next year, then sign me up!

[BD80]

Duval's arrival solidifies the starting lineup in away it hasn't been solidified since 2014-15.

A true point guard. Two big athletic wings and two very talented post players.

It actually fits for a change.

The starting lineup is so strong (on paper) that I think the "deep bench" advocates are going to be very disappointed next year. There is a huge dropoff between the starting five and the next five. In fact, as of now, the biggest question mark will be developing a post backup (DeLaurier?) and at least one, maybe two wing backups (Tucker? O'Connell? White?).

I suspect that the starting five will play every minute they can in competitive games.

How long can Bolden play before getting 5 fouls?

[UrinalCake]

As someone who was fortunate enough to attend last year's game against the CHeats from the grad student section, I take partial responsibility for securing this commitment


The visit I took there was really good. They played against North Carolina and I feel as if their atmosphere was off the charts.

link (http://duke.247sports.com/Article/Nations-Best-PG-Trevon-Duval-Has-Committed-To-Duke-52759046)

[Doria]

Awesome news! Can't wait to see what he can do, and I really liked his little announcement video.

Welcome to Duke, Trevon. I'm sure you'll really enjoy it, for however long you can stay!

[flyingdutchdevil]

Yeah, and 5 out of 5 is a strong possibility.

I'm not going to worry about that right now because you gotta play with what ya got. But man, losing the full starting lineup AGAIN would suck.

- Chillin

Grayson is back.

Next year, yeah. The reality is that all five could be gone.

[COYS]

The announcement video was extremely tasteful. Nicely done. One note: Trevon should contact me, Moonpie, or one of DBR's other music producers/audio engineers to do his voice-over work ;). The background sounds were nicely done, but his narration sounded like it was recorded in a hallway.

If Duke spent the previous season trying endlessly to establish consistent roles for players, I feel as if the 2017 season will be far more straightforward, if only for lack of options. There is no doubt that this team will be Trevon's to run on offense, with Grayson and Gary filling up the wings and Marques and Wendell occupying the post. Talent will not be an issue, as all five of those guys will probably be playing in the NBA . . . possibly as soon as late October, 2018. However, I see outside shooting, defense, and leadership as the three biggest question marks.

My hope is that the relationship between Grayson and Trevon is similar to that of Quinn and Tyus. Quinn took on the role of emotional leader, shaking off the immaturity of his younger days to become a rock for a championship team. Meanwhile, Tyus clearly took charge of the offense. I think Grayson will play more of a scoring role than Quinn did, of course, but I still see some parallels. Grayson has a chance to upend his reputation as a petulant player (even though much of that is undeserved) and end his Duke career on another high note as a key leader on a special Duke team, much like Quinn. Meanwhile, I hope that Trevon is able to channel Tyus and his uncanny confidence and basketball IQ. Trevon probably projects as a better player than Tyus down the road, but Tyus was so refined as a freshman. If Trevon can copy some of Tyus freshman year mojo, Duke really will be in good shape.

[ChillinDuke]

Grayson is back.

Next year, yeah. The reality is that all five could be gone.

Grayson did not start last year, at least toward the end of the season.

- Chillin

[COYS]

Grayson is back.

Next year, yeah. The reality is that all five could be gone.

To be fair to Chillin, Grayson was coming off the bench by the end of the year. Amile, Luke, Frank, Matt, and Jayson are all gone. However, it's true that Grayson did start the majority of the games.

[flyingdutchdevil]

Grayson did not start last year, at least toward the end of the season.

- Chillin

Grayson started 25 of the 34 games he played in. I'm pretty sure that constitutes a starter. He also started 35 of the 36 games he played in the '15-'16. In today's version of Duke basketball, that is as "starter-y" as you can get.

[Trey21]

This was a huge get. This immediately raises expectations and the stakes for next year. Glad after such a weird off season that K and the Staff were able to put together a nice unit here in the home stretch.

Duval, Carter, and Trent is a pretty mega trio. The highest ranked back court and the best power forward (according to ESPN). With nice projection players in Tucker and O'Connnell. An interesting and hyped class for sure. Let's hope they have better luck than last year's team.

Duval - don't think Duke's ever had a PG like this. Can see the Rose and Wall comparisons, but he isn't really as explosive as the former, nor quick as the latter. He definitely slices up through defenders like them though. Definitely some Kyrie influence on the handles. He also kinda reminds Eric Bledsoe in some ways, maybe because of his defensive potential?

Starting line up will be interesting. 1. Duval 2. Grayson 3. Trent 4. Carter 5. Bolden Look's pretty strong and scary if you ask me. Maybe not the best shooting though? We'll see I guess. With a year of experience and another summer under their belts I expect Javin DeLaurier and Jack White to be pretty steady contributors off the bench. Also hope too see something from Antonio Vrankovic.

Hoping that this team can push pace now that we'll have a legit PG. Duval is arguably, well actually, I'm just gonna say it - he's probably most athletic PG in our school's history by the looks of these highlights. If he can develop a shot, he'll be a nasty man in the NBA.

[ChillinDuke]

Grayson started 25 of the 34 games he played in. I'm pretty sure that constitutes a starter. He also started 35 of the 36 games he played in the '15-'16. In today's version of Duke basketball, that is as "starter-y" as you can get.

You're right - I certainly agree Grayson is "starter-y". But definitionally, our starting lineup at the end of last year is all gone. 5 out of 5.

Granted it's nitpicky, but it's a fact.

- Chillin

[flyingdutchdevil]

You're right - I certainly agree Grayson is "starter-y". But definitionally, our starting lineup at the end of last year is all gone. 5 out of 5.

Granted it's nitpicky, but it's a fact.

- Chillin

To be nitpicky, you never said "end of last year" until now. I consider Grayson to be more of a starter last year than Frank Jackson.

[kAzE]

You're right - I certainly agree Grayson is "starter-y". But definitionally, our starting lineup at the end of last year is all gone. 5 out of 5.

Granted it's nitpicky, but it's a fact.

- Chillin

It doesn't matter who starts the game, what matters is who ends the game.

[Edouble]

You're right - I certainly agree Grayson is "starter-y". But definitionally, our starting lineup at the end of last year is all gone. 5 out of 5.

Granted it's nitpicky, but it's a fact.

- Chillin

I agree


To be nitpicky, you never said "end of last year" until now. I consider Grayson to be more of a starter last year than Frank Jackson.

He said the "full starting lineup". Have we ever had a year where the starting lineup was the same every game? I'd wager no, and I would think that most would consider the end of the year starting lineup to be the starting lineup of historic record. Obviously there are exceptions, but the 2016-17 Blue Devils really made their mark at the end of the season in the ACC Tournament, where the overall team health was at its peak.

[Olympic Fan]

To be nitpicky, you never said "end of last year" until now. I consider Grayson to be more of a starter last year than Frank Jackson.

To be fair, the official definition of a "returning starter" is one of the five players who had the most starts in the previous season.

For Duke in 2017 that's

Kennard 36 starts
Jefferson 35 starts
Jones 33 starts
Tatum 27 starts
Allen 25 starts


Jackson 16 starts
Giles 6 starts
Jeter 6 starts
Bolden 1 start

Technically, Allen is a returning starter

[MrPoon]

Wait, I was just reading here last night that the sky was falling and that Duke may need to reconsider its recruiting strategy. Now we have a class that represents the #1 PF, #1 SG, and #1 PG in the class. Plus we are still having talks with the #1 C. All because some "experts" were wrong in saying Knox was coming to Duke. ESPN is reporting that Duke has 1 more top five player in the history of its Top 100 list than even the amazing recruiting machine at Kentucky.

I'm pleased Duval picked Duke, seems like a really exciting player. Should make for a fun year. His and a healthy GA's athleticism should be a lot of fun. It can't be the emotional roller coaster of last year but I expect a team this young to take us on some wild rides. I suspect there will be at least one loss that doesn't make any sense but some wins that will be awesome (just hope the last win is the most awesome).

[mr. synellinden]

The two similarities to Kyrie that I see are (1) a great behind the back crossover, and (2) craftiness around the rim. The shot is nowhere close to Kyrie's, but when people talk about players who are able to just get wherever they want on the floor, Tre is that guy.

One thing that is underestimated in my opinion, particularly for guards, is the ability to finish with your off (in this case, left) hand. Duval seems to be like Kyrie in that regard in that he's comfortable finishing with both hands. Although Kyrie is the best I've ever seen at that skill.

[Indoor66]

IRRC, Grayson coming off the bench rather than starting was directly related to his injury status not his on-court performances.

[Troublemaker]

Duval's arrival solidifies the starting lineup in away it hasn't been solidified since 2014-15.

There's even more clarity here than with 14-15. In the offseason leading up to the 14-15 season, I remember there being a healthy debate over who would start at 2-guard: Quinn, Rasheed, or perhaps even Matt. Then, there was also a minor faction who couldn't believe that a freshman PG would start over a senior Quinn, and they believed that Tyus would come off the bench with Quinn the starter at PG. There may have been other minor disagreements as well that I can't remember now.

With this upcoming season, I'm guessing 95% of the community agree on who the starting 5 will be.

[flyingdutchdevil]

There's even more clarity here than with 14-15. In the offseason leading up to the 14-15 season, I remember there being a healthy debate over who would start at 2-guard: Quinn, Rasheed, or perhaps even Matt. Then, there was also a minor faction who couldn't believe that a freshman PG would start over a senior Quinn, and they believed that Tyus would come off the bench with Quinn the starter at PG. There may have been other minor disagreements as well that I can't remember now.

With this upcoming season, I'm guessing 95% of the community agree on who the starting 5 will be.

Yeah. DeLaurier is gonna be outstanding at the 4. ;)

[BD80]

There's even more clarity here than with 14-15. In the offseason leading up to the 14-15 season, I remember there being a healthy debate over who would start at 2-guard: Quinn, Rasheed, or perhaps even Matt. Then, there was also a minor faction who couldn't believe that a freshman PG would start over a senior Quinn, and they believed that Tyus would come off the bench with Quinn the starter at PG. There may have been other minor disagreements as well that I can't remember now.

With this upcoming season, I'm guessing 95% of the community agree on who the starting 5 will be.

Mo Bamba may not agree

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

It doesn't matter who starts the game, what matters is who ends the game.

Then we should call them "enders."

[miramar]

The starting lineup is so strong (on paper) that I think the "deep bench" advocates are going to be very disappointed next year. There is a huge dropoff between the starting five and the next five. In fact, as of now, the biggest question mark will be developing a post backup (DeLaurier?) and at least one, maybe two wing backups (Tucker? O'Connell? White?).

I suspect that the starting five will play every minute they can in competitive games.

That's a good point, but considering that four or even five starters could leave next year, the coaches may decide that they need to develop the roster for 2018-2019 as well. Not to mention that guys who don't get what they consider to be sufficient playing time leave very quickly, as we have seen with talented players such as Thornton, Gbinije, and Ojeyele.

We all know that Coach K likes to play with 7-8 guys, but we can't lose eight guys next season as well, so this could get interesting.

[Olympic Fan]

That's a good point, but considering that four or even five starters could leave next year, the coaches may decide that they need to develop the roster for 2018-2019 as well. Not to mention that guys who don't get what they consider to be sufficient playing time leave very quickly, as we have seen with talented players such as Thornton, Gbinije, and Ojeyele.

We all know that Coach K likes to play with 7-8 guys, but we can't lose eight guys next season as well, so this could get interesting.

I think you are deluding yourself if you think that Coach K will sacrifice this year to prepare for the next. There will be significant time available for a backup in the post (I doubt that young big men can play 30 minutes a game) and for at least one on the wing. But don't think we'll see a lot of playing time for the subs -- certainly not in competitive situations.

I suspect we'll see an almost entirely new team in 2018-19 -- if K can land Garland and Jones and Reddish (the three most promising early targets) and add a couple of big guys (including one of Bagley or Williamson), Duke will be fine ... but very, very young again.

[cato]

Then we should call them "enders."

Note that enders' game is best viewed from a safe distance.

[Troublemaker]

I did some more digging, and he's actually a pass-first guy, believe it or not. He's a perfect fit for this team, and we desperately needed him. Thank God he picked Duke.


And he's a distributor first, while all of those guys are scorers.

I think my new best NBA comp is John Wall. Tre's got that type of size and defensive potential, with his 6'9.5" wingspan (Dennis Smith has a 6'3" wingspan) and explosive athleticism. He's an inch shorter, and might not be as fast as Wall, but they are both pass first guys, and have similar athletic ability.

Yeah, I had posted this a couple weeks ago, but in case anyone hasn't seen it, this is Trevon's high school coach raving about his passing (https://youtu.be/uJzm9CzKQwA?t=10m29s). It's possible the coach is overstating it a bit, but I think we can count on Duval to be a very good passer (and possibly great).

[MarkD83]

As happy as I am about the Duval signing, that pot-o-gold will be shared, as soon as I find it. I just hope MarkD83 doesn't hate me for that crack (but an 11 man rotation, come on)!

I just realized that I told myself I would not get all fired up about our recruiting success and projections after this last season...apparently I lied to myself. I'm all fired up! Here comes Duke!

I won't hate you for the crack about the easter bunny as long as you share the pot-o-gold....this reminds me of a true story about when I left my youngest off at college.

My son was a senior at VT when my daughter started her freshman year at VT. During orientation week while we were leaving them off at school there was a rain storm and a beautiful double rainbow. As we were looking at the rainbow my phone altered me to an email that tuition was due. Looking closely at the rainbows I swear they started at my car and ended at the bursar's office...so I believe Allen Building at Duke is where you might find a pot-o-gold on Duke's campus.

[Olympic Fan]

As long as we're looking for comps, it should be noted that ESPN's Adam Finklestein suggests (it's an Insider article) that the best comp for Duval is Russell Westbrook. Again, not saying he's as good as Westbrook, just that his game is most similar.

[flyingdutchdevil]

As long as we're looking for comps, it should be noted that ESPN's Adam Finklestein suggests (it's an Insider article) that the best comp for Duval is Russell Westbrook. Again, not saying he's as good as Westbrook, just that his game is most similar.

Same size, Duval's athleticism looks off the charts (although Russell Westbrook may be in a league by himself), solid passer, iffy shot...makes sense.

If Duval can match Westbrooks passing and intensity, then we have an absolute gem.

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

Note that enders' game is best viewed from a safe distance.

Don't go buggering my new terminology. You'll upset the hegemony.

[kAzE]

Don't go buggering my new terminology. You'll upset the hegemony.

He's just speaking for the dead. The guys who are on the floor at the end of a tight game all know the the enemy's gate is "down."

[kAzE]

Same size, Duval's athleticism looks off the charts (although Russell Westbrook may be in a league by himself), solid passer, iffy shot...makes sense.

If Duval can match Westbrooks passing and intensity, then we have an absolute gem.

I think Tre will have a better freshman year than Westbrook did at UCLA.

[COYS]

Yeah, I had posted this a couple weeks ago, but in case anyone hasn't seen it, this is Trevon's high school coach raving about his passing (https://youtu.be/uJzm9CzKQwA?t=10m29s). It's possible the coach is overstating it a bit, but I think we can count on Duval to be a very good passer (and possibly great).

He made some nifty passes in the video from the Jordan Brand workouts posted in the front page of DBR. Those workouts are arguably a better indicator than the actual games. Regardless of whether he's pass first or score first, he definitely seem to be capable of making impressive passes.

[Saratoga2]

Yeah. DeLaurier is gonna be outstanding at the 4. ;)

I have been of the opinion that Bolden and Carter, both true big men with limited experiece will only see about 25 minutes each. That will leave significant opportunity for DeLauier and some for Vrankovic. I think Javin will make a big step forward this year and be quite valuable to the team although probably not a starter. We may also use wing players inside at times.

[BD80]

I have been of the opinion that Bolden and Carter, both true big men with limited experiece will only see about 25 minutes each. That will leave significant opportunity for DeLauier and some for Vrankovic. I think Javin will make a big step forward this year and be quite valuable to the team although probably not a starter. We may also use wing players inside at times.

And the sun "may" rise in the east tomorrow.

[Kedsy]

And the sun "may" rise in the east tomorrow.

Actually, unless two of Tucker/White/O'Connell show enough to get significant minutes, I doubt we'll play a wing at PF except possibly at the very end of games. Sort of like 2010, when we just didn't have enough wing players to slide Singler over to PF.

[flyingdutchdevil]

Actually, unless two of Tucker/White/O'Connell show enough to get significant minutes, I doubt we'll play a wing at PF except possibly at the very end of games. Sort of like 2010, when we just didn't have enough wing players to slide Singler over to PF.

Yeah, but we had two Plumlees - one who was a 4-star recruit and insanely athletic, the other a 5-star recruit and all most as athletic. The question is who will be ahead of the learning curve: a junior Vrank, a sophomore DeLaurier, a sophomore White, or a freshman Tucker?

[BigZ]

Never saw anything here about this but we're there issues with his academic eligibility?

[Oshima25]

Never saw anything here about this but we're there issues with his academic eligibility?

If you haven't seen anything about it, I'm not sure why ask - at least phrase it as "Any word on his academics?" or something. This phrasing puts it in people's heads that he had trouble getting in or something, which, if based on nothing, is unfair to our new point guard.

[westwall]

I think you are deluding yourself if you think that Coach K will sacrifice this year to prepare for the next.


Very true! Perhaps the issue should stated: would Coach K sacrifice games in November/December to prepare for March?

[Indoor66]

Very true! Perhaps the issue should stated: would Coach K sacrifice games in November/December to prepare for March?

No, he will not. He is in every game to win. Winning is what it is about.

[Troublemaker]

Mrs. Duval (https://www.instagram.com/p/BUHxNIhgHfo/) (apparently her birthday, today? maybe that was the holdup for the announcement?):

https://scontent.cdninstagram.com/t51.2885-15/e35/18444356_1543094099055355_959691514370326528_n.jpg

[elvis14]

Mrs. Duval (https://www.instagram.com/p/BUHxNIhgHfo/) (apparently her birthday, today? maybe that was the holdup for the announcement?):



Interesting...it's her birthday we get a gift! She looks great in that Duke shirt, BTW.

[Dukehky]

And all is right with the world again.

Well, maybe not all, but a lot. Well, maybe not a lot, but Duke basketball got righter. YEAH, DDMF!!!!

[English]

Never saw anything here about this but we're there issues with his academic eligibility?

To my understanding, there were some questions about academics but they weren't associated with Duval personally. Rather, it was suggested that Duke got involved in his recruitment late because he he was initially playing at Advanced Prep International, which is essentially a basketball factory under the guise of a high school. Duval transferred to IMG Academy in FL, and the rest is history. I don't have a link to that narrative, but it was commonly known. I do have this link that explains API: https://www.si.com/college-basketball/2016/06/22/api-high-school-attracting-top-prospects-despite-ncaa-questions

You haven't heard any rumblings about academics because there aren't any rumblings about academics WRT Duval joining the Duke men's basketball program, nor Duke University.

[BER6493]

If you haven't seen anything about it, I'm not sure why ask - at least phrase it as "Any word on his academics?" or something. This phrasing puts it in people's heads that he had trouble getting in or something, which, if based on nothing, is unfair to our new point guard.

I have read DBR every day for over 8 years, and I believe this is one of the absolute best message boards around. However, I very very rarely post because of responses like this. The person is just asking a question. I would expect there is no problems with Duval's academic standing, but there is plenty of basis for the question considering Duke did not originally recruit Duval until after he transferred from API to IMG, and even still they were not serious about recruiting him until after it was clear that his academic situation was in order. if you did not know that this was the case just ignore the OP's question but regardless there isn't a reason to make it seem that he shouldn't post or should restate his question.

[BD80]

Mrs. Duval (https://www.instagram.com/p/BUHxNIhgHfo/) (apparently her birthday, today? maybe that was the holdup for the announcement?):

https://scontent.cdninstagram.com/t51.2885-15/e35/18444356_1543094099055355_959691514370326528_n.jpg

A new favorite mom in the stands?

[wsb3]

No, he will not. He is in every game to win. Winning is what it is about.

Funny had this same conversation with my sister today.

[wsb3]

A new favorite mom in the stands?

Welcome to Duke Mrs. Duval...

[jv001]

A new favorite mom in the stands?

Love those great Duke Moms. Welcome Tre and family. God bless and GoDuke!

[Tripping William]

No, he will not. He is in every game to win. Winning is what it is about.

Correct. Mike Krzyzewski comes from the Herm Edwards School (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b5-iJUuPWis).

[wsb3]

Correct. Mike Krzyzewski comes from the Herm Edwards School (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b5-iJUuPWis).

Well done Sir...

[UNCfan]

Maybe this kid will add a dimension for Duke that you were missing last year, but IMHO, he isn't the player Jackson is. You will have far less firepower 1-4 than I can remember in recent history. Maybe you will be better balanced by improved post play, which will be interesting, but an unproven player will really have to step up and be a second perimeter scorer. Allen will get all the shots he can handle next year, so he is set up to improve his draft stock.

[CDu]

Maybe this kid will add a dimension for Duke that you were missing last year, but IMHO, he isn't the player Jackson is. You will have far less firepower 1-4 than I can remember in recent history. Maybe you will be better balanced by improved post play, which will be interesting, but an unproven player will really have to step up and be a second perimeter scorer. Allen will get all the shots he can handle next year, so he is set up to improve his draft stock.

Duval is actually a higher-rated recruit than Jackson was.

And I think you are underestimating Carter and Trent. I think we will find that Duval, Allen, Trent, and Carter will make a very potent 1-4. I have little doubt we will be good offensively. Defense is my main concern.

[Oshima25]

I have read DBR every day for over 8 years, and I believe this is one of the absolute best message boards around. However, I very very rarely post because of responses like this. The person is just asking a question. I would expect there is no problems with Duval's academic standing, but there is plenty of basis for the question considering Duke did not originally recruit Duval until after he transferred from API to IMG, and even still they were not serious about recruiting him until after it was clear that his academic situation was in order. if you did not know that this was the case just ignore the OP's question but regardless there isn't a reason to make it seem that he shouldn't post or should restate his question.

You're doing the same to me bud. Anyway - we're all Duke fans here, all want the best for each other and our team and school. If my comment was taken as a suggestion that the original poster had any kind of ill intent, my apologies to said poster - I certainly don't think that. I just know little details about players like that tend to stick with us as fans, and I'd hate to see any kind of implication or speculation give people any kind of negative impression about a player if it's not based on anything - as the poster himself said it wasn't. Your point about API/IMG is perfectly fair, but when the language is "I haven't seen anything about it but..." it makes the question seem kinda baseless in context.

At any rate - Not trying to police the board or put anyone down, just discussing. I'm glad there weren't such questions about eligibility and thrilled Duval is a Blue Devil, and I'm sure we can all agree on that regardless.

[UNCfan]

Duval is actually a higher-rated recruit than Jackson was.

And I think you are underestimating Carter and Trent. I think we will find that Duval, Allen, Trent, and Carter will make a very potent 1-4.

You may be correct, you may have an unbelievably good group. They may end up to be a sum greater than their parts where last years group where the parts were greater than their sum.

[kAzE]

Duval is actually a higher-rated recruit than Jackson was.

And I think you are underestimating Carter and Trent. I think we will find that Duval, Allen, Trent, and Carter will make a very potent 1-4. I have little doubt we will be good offensively. Defense is my main concern.

Defense is also my main concern, but I also have reservations about possible spacing issues that the assumed starting 5 could have, with just 1 reliable shooter (Grayson). I think Trent is actually more of a inside/post up scorer rather than a pure shooter. His perimeter shooting stats from high school are rather pedestrian for a shooting guard, and Tre Duval is not known for being a knockdown shooter, either.

Hopefully those 2 guys end up being better shooters than I think they are, because Bolden and Carter aren't drawing any defenders out of the paint. The best offense may be to play inside-out, using Carter and Bolden to draw double teams and kick out to shooters and cutters. That would of course depend on how good Carter and Bolden's post offense can be.

[dukelifer]

Maybe this kid will add a dimension for Duke that you were missing last year, but IMHO, he isn't the player Jackson is. You will have far less firepower 1-4 than I can remember in recent history. Maybe you will be better balanced by improved post play, which will be interesting, but an unproven player will really have to step up and be a second perimeter scorer. Allen will get all the shots he can handle next year, so he is set up to improve his draft stock.

Much less proven firepower. A lot of unknowns with this group on both sides of the ball. But there is talent on the team- so it will be interesting to watch how they blend together. My gut says it will be a mixed bag for a while.

[UNCfan]

You may struggle to score consistently with this young group. Your expectations will start out lower than last years, same with UNC. To me, it makes the ride much more fun. Nothing is a rough as not living up to expectations!

[CDu]

You may be correct, you may have an unbelievably good group. They may end up to be a sum greater than their parts where last years group where the parts were greater than their sum.

I disagree with this a bit. I don't think it was an issue of the parts being greater than the sum this year. The issue was that the parts were never healthy together for any length of time.

Bolden, Giles, and Tatum missed several weeks in the preseason, which is awful for freshmen. Giles also missed several weeks of the season. Then, right when those guys got healthy, Jefferson got hurt and Coach K had surgery. Then, Allen got hurt. Then, Allen got hurt again.

Health doomed this past season for Duke. If we had been healthy, I think we would have seen a much different Duke team.

[MChambers]

Defense is also my main concern, but I also have reservations about possible spacing issues that the assumed starting 5 could have, with just 1 reliable shooter (Grayson). I think Trent is actually more of a inside/post up scorer rather than a pure shooter. His perimeter shooting stats from high school are rather pedestrian for a shooting guard, and Tre Duval is not known for being a knockdown shooter, either.

Hopefully those 2 guys end up being better shooters than I think they are, because Bolden and Carter aren't drawing any defenders out of the paint. The best offense may be to play inside-out, using Carter and Bolden to draw double teams and kick out to shooters and cutters. That would of course depend on how good Carter and Bolden's post offense can be.

I can't remember the last time defense wasn't my biggest concern about a Duke team. With the one and dones, and the offensive talent, the defense hasn't been very good for a while, except in stretches, like in the 2015 NCAAs.

I think Carter will be able to shoot a foul line jumper, which none of our bigs could do last year, so that will help some.

[Edouble]

You're doing the same to me bud. Anyway - we're all Duke fans here, all want the best for each other and our team and school. If my comment was taken as a suggestion that the original poster had any kind of ill intent, my apologies to said poster - I certainly don't think that. I just know little details about players like that tend to stick with us as fans, and I'd hate to see any kind of implication or speculation give people any kind of negative impression about a player if it's not based on anything - as the poster himself said it wasn't. Your point about API/IMG is perfectly fair, but when the language is "I haven't seen anything about it but..." it makes the question seem kinda baseless in context.

At any rate - Not trying to police the board or put anyone down, just discussing. I'm glad there weren't such questions about eligibility and thrilled Duval is a Blue Devil, and I'm sure we can all agree on that regardless.

Yeah, the lack of specifics and the typo in the OP's question didn't sit well with me either. If you are going to bring up a topic as sensitive as academic eligibility, please use a minimal amount of care.

[ncexnyc]

I disagree with this a bit. I don't think it was an issue of the parts being greater than the sum this year. The issue was that the parts were never healthy together for any length of time.

Bolden, Giles, and Tatum missed several weeks in the preseason, which is awful for freshmen. Giles also missed several weeks of the season. Then, right when those guys got healthy, Jefferson got hurt and Coach K had surgery. Then, Allen got hurt. Then, Allen got hurt again.

Health doomed this past season for Duke. If we had been healthy, I think we would have seen a much different Duke team.

In the Army we had a saying, "The maximum effective range of an excuse is zero meters." I'm sorry, but UNCFan is correct, we were definitely less than the sum of our parts last year.

As far as health goes, yes it did have an effect on total wins, but we were certainly healthy enough to win the AAC Championship

The actual story of last season was that we had a lot of talent from 1-3, but beyond Tatum and Jefferson, (a PF disguised as a C) the frontcourt was wafer thin.

[CDu]

In the Army we had a saying, "The maximum effective range of an excuse is zero meters." I'm sorry, but UNCFan is correct, we were definitely less than the sum of our parts last year.

As far as health goes, yes it did have an effect on total wins, but we were certainly healthy enough to win the AAC Championship

The actual story of last season was that we had a lot of talent from 1-3, but beyond Tatum and Jefferson, (a PF disguised as a C) the frontcourt was wafer thin.

Yeah, we are going to have to agree to disagree here. Injuries most certainly resulted in several of our early-season losses. That got us stuck in a 2-seed, which got us the misfortune of playing SC in SC.

And we didn't lose that game because of our frontcourt. We lost that game because our backcourt was thin, and got excessive foul trouble.

Doesn't change the result. The NCAA didn't go the way we wanted. You can feel free to ignore real factors that led to the situation if you want to do so, but injuries were unquestionably a HUGE part of the end result.

[Ultrarunner]

Maybe this kid will add a dimension for Duke that you were missing last year, but IMHO, he isn't the player Jackson is. You will have far less firepower 1-4 than I can remember in recent history. Maybe you will be better balanced by improved post play, which will be interesting, but an unproven player will really have to step up and be a second perimeter scorer. Allen will get all the shots he can handle next year, so he is set up to improve his draft stock.

I think you're probably right about firepower. However, with Duval, we have a chance to bring it to bear far more effectively. Add in Grayson who showed some good instincts dishing last year, and I expect the Duke bigs to make a living off of dunks. If Trent and Jordan (Tucker) can drop threes at an effective rate, the offense could be more efficient and consistent, even if less explosive.

[Olympic Fan]

Was just watching Trevon's commitment video again ... did it remind anybody else of this classic:

https://www.dailymotion.com/video/xdzljz_cheech-and-chong-basketball-jones-w_shortfilms

The bit about how he was born and given a basketball .. and how as a two year old, he dribbled through all the four-year-olds ...

[lotusland]

Was just watching Trevon's commitment video again ... did it remind anybody else of this classic:

https://www.dailymotion.com/video/xdzljz_cheech-and-chong-basketball-jones-w_shortfilms

The bit about how he was born and given a basketball .. and how as a two year old, he dribbled through all the four-year-olds ...

That was my first thought.

[whereinthehellami]

Pretty cool youtube video of Tricky Tre (https://youtu.be/uJzm9CzKQwA). Sorry if this has already been posted. It is an hour long documentary with decent production.

[sammy3469]

Defense is also my main concern, but I also have reservations about possible spacing issues that the assumed starting 5 could have, with just 1 reliable shooter (Grayson). I think Trent is actually more of a inside/post up scorer rather than a pure shooter. His perimeter shooting stats from high school are rather pedestrian for a shooting guard, and Tre Duval is not known for being a knockdown shooter, either.

Hopefully those 2 guys end up being better shooters than I think they are, because Bolden and Carter aren't drawing any defenders out of the paint. The best offense may be to play inside-out, using Carter and Bolden to draw double teams and kick out to shooters and cutters. That would of course depend on how good Carter and Bolden's post offense can be.

I actually think the team has the potential to be one of the better defensive teams. Teams have historically resorted to PnR with our big showing which caused all types of problems with the opposing PG penetrating. Duval is strong and quick enough to get over that double and keep the defense from having to help. Granted it remains to be seen what really happens, but K hasn't never had a PG with these physical gifts (Jay Williams is probably the closest in strength, but he wasn't nearly as long and that 15 years ago).

[sagegrouse]

In the Army we had a saying, "The maximum effective range of an excuse is zero meters." I'm sorry, but UNCFan is correct, we were definitely less than the sum of our parts last year.

As far as health goes, yes it did have an effect on total wins, but we were certainly healthy enough to win the AAC Championship

The actual story of last season was that we had a lot of talent from 1-3, but beyond Tatum and Jefferson, (a PF disguised as a C) the frontcourt was wafer thin.


Yeah, we are going to have to agree to disagree here. Injuries most certainly resulted in several of our early-season losses. That got us stuck in a 2-seed, which got us the misfortune of playing SC in SC.

And we didn't lose that game because of our frontcourt. We lost that game because our backcourt was thin, and got excessive foul trouble.

Doesn't change the result. The NCAA didn't go the way we wanted. You can feel free to ignore real factors that led to the situation if you want to do so, but injuries were unquestionably a HUGE part of the end result.
Hey, we were preseason number one, deservedly or not. Then, we finished in fifth place in the ACC regular season with some bad losses. We rallied to win the ACC tournament, with an intense and gritty display of hoops on four consecutive days. Then we got poleaxed by a super-aggressive SC team in Greenville, SC, failing to even make the Sweet Sixteen.

Is there an alternate, injury-free universe where we would have won the NC? Yeah, possibly -- the NCAA tournament is a one-loss crapshoot. But, weren't we injury-free by the end of the year? And didn't the team have a full month when all players were available (although Grayson was sub-par for a couple of weeks)? Although Jayson, Luke, Grayson and Frank were terrific, we were nowhere as good on the inside as we expected.

[CDu]

Hey, we were preseason number one, deservedly or not. Then, we finished in fifth place in the ACC regular season with some bad losses. We rallied to win the ACC tournament, with an intense and gritty display of hoops on four consecutive days. Then we got poleaxed by a super-aggressive SC team in Greenville, SC, failing to even make the Sweet Sixteen.

Is there an alternate, injury-free universe where we would have won the NC? Yeah, possibly -- the NCAA tournament is a one-loss crapshoot. But, weren't we injury-free by the end of the year? And didn't the team have a full month when all players were available (although Grayson was sub-par for a couple of weeks)? Although Jayson, Luke, Grayson and Frank were terrific, we were nowhere as good on the inside as we expected.

Injury-free at the end of the season? Possibly, although I think Bolden was out sick for the tournament. A month together fully-healthy? No, because Allen was playing hurt. It is also worth noting that that month of almost full health was when we beat UNC, UVa on the road, Notre Dame on the road, etc.

But aside from all that, I don't think we were ever really fully healthy. Giles was still a shell of himself all year. He had some nice moments here and there, but the 3-4 months of work that he missed at the beginning of the year (combined with the 6-7 months off prior to that) meant he just was never ready to be the elite player folks saw as a junior in hign school. If we had that guy as hopef, our season looks a lot different. And on top of that, we battled other injuries all year (Bolden, Allen three times - one hip early, the ankles twice late; Jefferson's foot; Coach K's surgery). Not only did injuries lower the team's ceiling by robbing us of our best player, they took a toll on continuity and on our eventual seeding (by costing us some losses).

To write things off as "the team just wasn't as good as the sum of its parts" in incorrect in my opinion. Because its parts were not what they should/could have been due to injuries. I might agree with a statement that the team was not as good as the expected sum value of its individual parts. But several of the parts were not able to reach their expected value individually due to injury.

[Troublemaker]

I actually think the team has the potential to be one of the better defensive teams. Teams have historically resorted to PnR with our big showing which caused all types of problems with the opposing PG penetrating. Duval is strong and quick enough to get over that double and keep the defense from having to help. Granted it remains to be seen what really happens, but K hasn't never had a PG with these physical gifts (Jay Williams is probably the closest in strength, but he wasn't nearly as long and that 15 years ago).

That's what I'm hoping for, too. If Trevon can get over the screens and quickly re-attach to the ball-handler, Coach K might have enough confidence to drop Marques and Wendell back instead of using them for either a soft/lateral show or a hard hedge.

I also think on the side PnRs, he's going to be a terror with his length stripping ball-handlers when we ice.

[Troublemaker]

I also think on the side PnRs, he's going to be a terror with his length stripping ball-handlers when we ice.

Big version here (https://gfycat.com/DownrightGlossyAfricanrockpython). Also, good job by Wendell to force Sexton to make a spin move back inside.

https://thumbs.gfycat.com/DownrightGlossyAfricanrockpython-size_restricted.gif

[English]

Hey, we were preseason number one, deservedly or not. Then, we finished in fifth place in the ACC regular season with some bad losses. We rallied to win the ACC tournament, with an intense and gritty display of hoops on four consecutive days. Then we got poleaxed by a super-aggressive SC team in Greenville, SC, failing to even make the Sweet Sixteen.

Is there an alternate, injury-free universe where we would have won the NC? Yeah, possibly -- the NCAA tournament is a one-loss crapshoot. But, weren't we injury-free by the end of the year? And didn't the team have a full month when all players were available (although Grayson was sub-par for a couple of weeks)? Although Jayson, Luke, Grayson and Frank were terrific, we were nowhere as good on the inside as we expected.

Do you mean by the end of the year when folks around here were debating endlessly about whether Coach K should rest Grayson & Amile because they very obviously weren't 100%? No, I don't think it's fair to say we had a month, or even a couple of weeks, at the end of the year when everyone was 100% healthy.

Now, if you want to argue that injuries are a part of the game and not a valid excuse for failing to meet expectations, or to reach a sum-of-the-parts whole, that's a separate argument, IMO.

[weezie]

Well, I am SUPER-AMPED!!!

Look at these riches in our new young players, and our hungry bench, and our seasoned, dead-eye shooting senior!!!
Think about how opposing teams will have to spread their defenses....

Coach K and his staff, WOW! It's pretty much a spectacular post-season coup.

[chriso]

Well, I am SUPER-AMPED!!!

Look at these riches in our new young players, and our hungry bench, and our seasoned, dead-eye shooting senior!!!
Think about how opposing teams will have to spread their defenses...

Coach K and his staff, WOW! It's pretty much a spectacular post-season coup.

Agreed. I'm tempering my expectations but that video of Duval is crazy. Some of his moves made my jaw drop. Does anyone else see some Iverson in his game?

[NSDukeFan]

Agreed. I'm tempering my expectations but that video of Duval is crazy. Some of his moves made my jaw drop. Does anyone else see some Iverson in his game?

I'm hoping Duval is a better practice player. 😀

[jimsumner]

Interesting how this all worked out. Duke missed on Tremont Walters (the first time), Quade Green and Matt Coleman and somehow ended up with the top-ranked point guard in the class.

[flyingdutchdevil]

Interesting how this all worked out. Duke missed on Tremont Walters (the first time), Quade Green and Matt Coleman and somehow ended up with the top-ranked point guard in the class.

Waters ;)

I agree; funny how things work out. It would be funnier if UK ends up with Knox and Duke with Bamba.

[WVDUKEFAN]

Interesting how this all worked out. Duke missed on Tremont Walters (the first time), Quade Green and Matt Coleman and somehow ended up with the top-ranked point guard in the class.

I wanted us to land Duval more so than any other recruit. We've desperately needed a point guard. No disrespect to Allen, Jackson, or anyone else who attempted to run the show last year, but, they were out of position. This team is going to be incredibly dangerous. We have a point guard who can shoot, drive, and defend in Duval, a couple of options at the other guard position in Trent and Allen, a great power forward in Carter, and a big man in Bolden. I think he's going to be a beast next year. I'm not sure about the small forward position - I think we have some options with Tucker and some of the others. This team could be scary good.

[jimsumner]

I wanted us to land Duval more so than any other recruit. We've desperately needed a point guard. No disrespect to Allen, Jackson, or anyone else who attempted to run the show last year, but, they were out of position. This team is going to be incredibly dangerous. We have a point guard who can shoot, drive, and defend in Duval, a couple of options at the other guard position in Trent and Allen, a great power forward in Carter, and a big man in Bolden. I think he's going to be a beast next year. I'm not sure about the small forward position - I think we have some options with Tucker and some of the others. This team could be scary good.



Waters.

I think Trent projects as a Duke 3. He's now about 6-6, 210.

Of course, if Duval, Allen and Trent start--which I expect--than at least one of O'Connell, Tucker or White needs to be able to play significant minutes off the bench.

[English]

Interesting how this all worked out. Duke missed on Tremont Walters (the first time), Quade Green and Matt Coleman and somehow ended up with the top-ranked point guard in the class.

Perhaps funnier still, Tremont Waters (No. 10 ranked PG, per 247) is still available after a decommitting from Georgetown following the JTIII ouster.

ETA: Oops, I realize that your parenthetical was likely in reference to Waters opening his recruitment, so we missed the first time. Apologies.

[sagegrouse]

Injury-free at the end of the season? Possibly, although I think Bolden was out sick for the tournament. A month together fully-healthy? No, because Allen was playing hurt. It is also worth noting that that month of almost full health was when we beat UNC, UVa on the road, Notre Dame on the road, etc.

But aside from all that, I don't think we were ever really fully healthy. Giles was still a shell of himself all year. He had some nice moments here and there, but the 3-4 months of work that he missed at the beginning of the year (combined with the 6-7 months off prior to that) meant he just was never ready to be the elite player folks saw as a junior in hign school. If we had that guy as hopef, our season looks a lot different. And on top of that, we battled other injuries all year (Bolden, Allen three times - one hip early, the ankles twice late; Jefferson's foot; Coach K's surgery). Not only did injuries lower the team's ceiling by robbing us of our best player, they took a toll on continuity and on our eventual seeding (by costing us some losses).

To write things off as "the team just wasn't as good as the sum of its parts" in incorrect in my opinion. Because its parts were not what they should/could have been due to injuries. I might agree with a statement that the team was not as good as the expected sum value of its individual parts. But several of the parts were not able to reach their expected value individually due to injury.

Good points, CDu. Of course, someone else (UNCFan?) made the point about the "sum of the individual parts." I would say that some of the parts weren't nearly as good as expected: Giles was pretty much a loss for the year. Maybe it was the October surgery, but maybe it was the previous surgeries and long layout. Bolden wasn't quite ready, even allowing for his injury problems. I am looking forward to Marques having the season we anticipated last year, and I am grateful he will be here in 2018.

Jayson really came on at the end of the year. I remember. nevertheless, the chorus here in January asking for him to be benched, because of defense and because of his go-it-alone approach on the offensive end. Thankfully, the gears clicked into place (you're the engineer, CDu -- please correct my terminology), and we have him to thank for the ACC championship.

I got no complaints about Frank Jackson -- I thought he was a good player all year and amazing at times. Good luck in the NBA.

With fewer injuries, psychic and physical, to my man Grayson, we could have done better, but I don't think we had the inside strength we anticipated and were unlikely to make the Final Four. We had a good season with some good wins (two of three over UNC, for instance) and an ACC championship, but were not really a national contender as the the fifth-place finisher in the regular season ACC.

[Olympic Fan]

Hey, we were preseason number one, deservedly or not. Then, we finished in fifth place in the ACC regular season with some bad losses. We rallied to win the ACC tournament, with an intense and gritty display of hoops on four consecutive days. Then we got poleaxed by a super-aggressive SC team in Greenville, SC, failing to even make the Sweet Sixteen.

Is there an alternate, injury-free universe where we would have won the NC? Yeah, possibly -- the NCAA tournament is a one-loss crapshoot. But, weren't we injury-free by the end of the year? And didn't the team have a full month when all players were available (although Grayson was sub-par for a couple of weeks)? Although Jayson, Luke, Grayson and Frank were terrific, we were nowhere as good on the inside as we expected.

Not even close.

(1) As you say, Grayson was still hobbled to some extent.

(2) Amile was never the same player after he hurt his foot against Boston College Jan 7. Before that injury, he was averaging almost 15 points and 11 rebounds and shooting 67 percent from the floor. After he returned, he averaged barely 11 points and seven rebounds and just over 50 percent from the floor. No numbers, but I would argue that his defense took a similar hit.

(3) Bolden never got a chance to develop. HE was never the same player after his foot injury -- one that kept him out for the first eight games of the season. Before his injury, he was a quick, active big. Afterwards, he was slow and sluggish. Plus, he was out for the NCAA Tournament with the flu (and several other players, including Kennard, were just coming off the flu, which had to weaken them).

(4) But the biggest factor was Harry Giles. He never got a chance to develop into the player he was before his second ACL. Should we have seen that in preseason when all those bright predictions were out there? Absolutely. But the physical problems that turned the No. 1 talent in his class into a minor contributor was one of the biggest reasons that Duke failed to develop into the superteam hat we all expected.

Call it an excuse if you want, but the incredible succession of injuries that plagued this team was absolutely the explanation for Duke's struggles. The injuries that plagued Grayson all season, the injury that turned Jefferson from an All-ACC level player to a barely serviceable ACC post player, the injuries that slowed the development of Giles and Bolden -- not to mention injuries that sidelined Jeter, DeLaurier and Jackson at times -- all turned a potential super team into one that finished fifth in the ACC and made a quick exit from the NCAA Tournament.

There's a thread debating whether next year's team will be better or worse than last year's team. Interesting question -- to me, there's no doubt that last year's team had a greater ceiling, but one that was not realized because of the succession of injuries. Next year's team isn't nearly as deep or talented, but if it stays relatively injury free, it could easily surpass the accomplishments of the 2017 team.

[Kedsy]

But the physical problems that turned the No. 1 talent in his class into a minor contributor was one of the biggest reasons that Duke failed to develop into the superteam hat we all expected.

Call it an excuse if you want, but the incredible succession of injuries that plagued this team was absolutely the explanation for Duke's struggles.

I completely agree. The way I see it, the injuries more or less turned the 2017 version of Duke into the 2016 version of Duke (post-Amile injury) -- Jayson Tatum == Brandon Ingram; 2017 Grayson Allen == 2016 Luke Kennard; 2017 Luke Kennard == 2016 Grayson Allen; diminished Amile Jefferson == Marshall Plumlee; Frank Jackson == Derryck Thornton; 2017 Matt Jones == 2016 Matt Jones; diminished Harry Giles == 2016 Chase Jeter; diminished Marques Bolden == non-factor.

It's not a perfect analogy, because Frank was better than Derryck and Harry was better than 2016 Chase (though not by huge amounts in either case). 2017 Matt was a better defensive player than 2016 Matt, but not as good an offensive player.

But my point is that the 2017 team should have been much better than the 2016 team, and pre-season we certainly expected the 2017 team to be better, but because of the injuries we got a diminished frontcourt and basically the same team that was lucky to make the Sweet 16 in 2016.

[budwom]

I can't argue about the injury stuff, there are a lot of different points that can be made. But I do think it's fair to observe that this team had other big problems as well, primarily absolutely putrid backcourt defense (except for Matt).
We couldn't stop dribble penetration all year, and as wonderful a year as Kennard had, his on the ball defense was just horrendous. I'm hopeful we can improve on this next year, as inexperienced as we'll be.

[elvis14]

I wanted us to land Duval more so than any other recruit. We've desperately needed a point guard. No disrespect to Allen, Jackson, or anyone else who attempted to run the show last year, but, they were out of position. This team is going to be incredibly dangerous. We have a point guard who can shoot, drive, and defend in Duval, a couple of options at the other guard position in Trent and Allen, a great power forward in Carter, and a big man in Bolden. I think he's going to be a beast next year. I'm not sure about the small forward position - I think we have some options with Tucker and some of the others. This team could be scary good.

I'm with in you in that Duval was the recruit I really wanted to land. Not just because we need better PG play but because he's an absolute beast of a PG. I know hype videos are made to make you go 'wow' but there's a difference between making a guy seem like a good shooter by showing shot after shot going in vs. watching a guy like Duval who's athleticism is hard to hide.

It's kind of cute how you list Grayson Allen as one of "a couple of options at the other guard position". A senior NPOY-level player on the court with a guy like Duval can be so ridiculously effective if they work together. A healthy Grayson Allen is also a beast.

Duval has me looking forward to next season (I was kind of bummed and apathetic after last season and all the defections).

[flyingdutchdevil]

I can't argue about the injury stuff, there are a lot of different points that can be made. But I do think it's fair to observe that this team had other big problems as well, primarily absolutely putrid backcourt defense (except for Matt).
We couldn't stop dribble penetration all year, and as wonderful a year as Kennard had, his on the ball defense was just horrendous. I'm hopeful we can improve on this next year, as inexperienced as we'll be.

As you said, it's addition by subtraction on the defensive end without Kennard. Next year, the question will be a) desire and b) Coach K's ability to build a workable, easy to understand defense for the youngins. We have the tools (Duval, Trent, Bolden, DeLaurier) to be a really good defensive team.

[NSDukeFan]

As you said, it's addition by subtraction on the defensive end without Kennard. Next year, the question will be a) desire and b) Coach K's ability to build a workable, easy to understand defense for the youngins. We have the tools (Duval, Trent, Bolden, DeLaurier) to be a really good defensive team.

I don't think there is any such thing as addition by subtraction when talking about Kennard. He was fantastic last year. I think individual players sometimes get overly blamed when our team's defence is weaker than we would like. I believe he could have been an effective defensive player on a team with a solid defence as well. Injuries ruined last year's team's potential, especially defensively.

[budwom]

I don't think there is any such thing as addition by subtraction when talking about Kennard. He was fantastic last year. I think individual players sometimes get overly blamed when our team's defence is weaker than we would like. I believe he could have been an effective defensive player on a team with a solid defence as well. Injuries ruined last year's team's potential, especially defensively.

I have ingrained in my mind the recurring scene of Luke getting beat by his man and responding with an unhappy shrug. I don't doubt his effort, but he really did not play adequate defense.

[flyingdutchdevil]

I don't think there is any such thing as addition by subtraction when talking about Kennard. He was fantastic last year. I think individual players sometimes get overly blamed when our team's defence is weaker than we would like. I believe he could have been an effective defensive player on a team with a solid defence as well. Injuries ruined last year's team's potential, especially defensively.

Then we'll have to agree to disagree. Kennard was a really bad defender last year. I obviously would rather have Kennard next year (cus his O >>>>>>> his D), but he doesn't add value on that end of the court.

[kAzE]

Then we'll have to agree to disagree. Kennard was a really bad defender last year. I obviously would rather have Kennard next year (cus his O >>>>>>> his D), but he doesn't add value on that end of the court.

Well, in any case, losing Matt and Amile was subtraction by subtraction (lots of math language on DBR today).

Perhaps you are right that Gary, Tre, Javin, and Marques are pretty good individual defenders, but defense more than anything else in basketball is a team skill more than an individual skill. All 5 guys need to be connected and in constant communication. You could have 5 excellent 1-on-1 defenders who still suck at 5 on 5 defense quite easily.

IMO, losing Amile and Matt hurts us way more than losing Luke helps us on defense. (I hope that makes sense)

[elvis14]

I don't think there is any such thing as addition by subtraction when talking about Kennard. He was fantastic last year. I think individual players sometimes get overly blamed when our team's defence is weaker than we would like. I believe he could have been an effective defensive player on a team with a solid defence as well. Injuries ruined last year's team's potential, especially defensively.


Then we'll have to agree to disagree. Kennard was a really bad defender last year. I obviously would rather have Kennard next year (cus his O >>>>>>> his D), but he doesn't add value on that end of the court.

I love me some Luke Kennard but I'm going to have to side with flyingdutchdevil on this one. I was talking with a a good friend and fellow Duke fan and he was complaining about Luke's defense. I told him it wasn't that bad. After that I started to focus on Luke's defense (like backing up the DVR and seeing what happened when rewatching games). Holy crap, my friend was so right. Luke could score all day long but my goodness his defense was really bad. I was really bummed when I realized that my friend was right (and yes, I did eventually tell him he was right and I was wrong because that's how I roll).

[budwom]

fair point, kaze. Given our amazing lack of experience, I hope K simplifies the defense so it suits the young team. Last year for example, I never thought Bolden (when he played) looked comfortable constantly hedging, then scrambling to get back to the lane...

[flyingdutchdevil]

Well, in any case, losing Matt and Amile was subtraction by subtraction (lots of math language on DBR today).

Perhaps you are right that Gary, Tre, Javin, and Marques are pretty good individual defenders, but defense more than anything else in basketball is a team skill more than an individual skill. All 5 guys need to be connected and in constant communication. You could have 5 excellent 1-on-1 defenders who still suck at 5 on 5 defense quite easily.

IMO, losing Amile and Matt hurts us way more than losing Luke helps us on defense. (I hope that makes sense)

Without question on the bolded. Losing Matt and Amile hurts on D, but both were excellent on-ball defenders and not rim protectors. So if someone got beaten off the dribble (looking at everyone in the backcourt not named Matt. Okay, Matt got beaten once in a while), no one acted as an imposing rim protector.

Your last comment is interesting, and I'm not too sure. I'm not sold on us being better defensively next year, but the tools are at least there to make us better. Furthermore, if every player can do at least an okay job preventing penetration, we should be better. Also, if Carter and Bolden can acts as intimidating twin towers, we have an insurance policy. Unfortunately, there are a lot of "maybes".

[weezie]

fair point, kaze. Given our amazing lack of experience, I hope K simplifies the defense so it suits the young team. Last year for example, I never thought Bolden (when he played) looked comfortable constantly hedging, then scrambling to get back to the lane...

Ding ding ding. We have a winner. I sure hope that play goes away. Or maybe it works for a change.

[Troublemaker]

fair point, kaze. Given our amazing lack of experience, I hope K simplifies the defense so it suits the young team. Last year for example, I never thought Bolden (when he played) looked comfortable constantly hedging, then scrambling to get back to the lane...

Hedging was actually the only thing Marques did well last season, and he was a much more effective pick-and-roll defender than Harry.

In any case, we didn't use the hedge in either the 14-15 season or the 15-16 season before it suddenly reappeared in 16-17. Because, I imagine, the staff was trying various things to see if they could fix our PnR defense, which unfortunately they never WERE able to. But I suspect we'll return to the recent status quo of not hedging next season. I think what Duke WANTS to do regularly is to ice the side PnRs and do a soft show on the middle PnRs, but I'd like us to do a straight dropback on the middle PnRs instead; however, as mentioned before, that will require our guards to get over screens better, and there IS potential for that this season with better defensive talent out front.

I don't think Duke's defense is complicated. It's possible that Duke's defense focuses too much on guarding 3s at the expense of giving up 2s too easily. But it's not complex.

Also, note that UVA performs a hard hedge close to 100% of the time, and they have a great defense every year. The hedge, like any other tactic, can be a positive if you have the talent to execute it.

[kAzE]

Also, note that UVA performs a hard hedge close to 100% of the time, and they have a great defense every year. The hedge, like any other tactic, can be a positive if you have the talent to execute it.

UVA also has tons of upperclassmen in their rotation who have been with Tony Bennett for years. They do not typically have as many young players as we do.

[Troublemaker]

UVA also has tons of upperclassmen in their rotation who have been with Tony Bennett for years. They do not typically have as many young players as we do.

Well, last season, UVA's center rotation consisted of a soph (Salt) and a frosh (Diakite), and Duke's best hedger was a frosh. A lot of it just comes down to recruiting good defensive talent (and then having them stay healthy).

But, like I said, I do prefer we do a dropback rather than a hedge on the middle ball screens. And I like icing the side ball screens.

[SlapTheFloor]

I think we've grown a little spoiled expecting Coach K to always find a way to tweak our system for the current personnel. We had a lot of talent this past season, and a decent amount of experience, but there were glaring holes in the roster (mainly at center and point guard). Maybe in a season where Coach K was, himself, healthy, he would have found a way to cover up those deficiencies. As it were, we had a solid season but certainly not the one most of us were expecting.

[hsheffield]

OK, I just watched this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tcVKvvOfsr4

I don't think Duke has ever had a PG like this kid. Size, strength, outstanding athleticism, not much of a jump shot, likes to fly down the lane and dunk, good passer but more of a lead guard than a distributor.

The comparable I saw mentioned somewhere was Derrick Rose. While I don't think any of us wants 2017 Derrick Rose, 2010 Derrick Rose was a monster. And based on his announcement video, he seems like a pretty good kid -- not a nut case like Rose.

I'm going to predict that the kid is coachable and will play hard on D -- and that next year's team is going to be a lot of fun.

GTHC!

OMG, I didn't realize how much I've missed our having a real PG until watching this. It was so beautiful it made me tear up.

[Oshima25]

fair point, kaze. Given our amazing lack of experience, I hope K simplifies the defense so it suits the young team. Last year for example, I never thought Bolden (when he played) looked comfortable constantly hedging, then scrambling to get back to the lane...

I actually disagree - I thought the strategy as a whole looked rough because Harry was told to do it also and clearly didn't have the lateral quickness back to pull it off. Bolden was pretty quick about it and seemed to be able to create a bit of havoc on D.

That said, I do think we should probably avoid making that high hedge too predictable. Should be a now and then thing, methinks.

[DaleDuke7]

It's kind of cute how you list Grayson Allen as one of "a couple of options at the other guard position". A senior NPOY-level player on the court with a guy like Duval can be so ridiculously effective if they work together. A healthy Grayson Allen is also a beast.

Duval has me looking forward to next season (I was kind of bummed and apathetic after last season and all the defections).

Agreed. Allen is spectacular by himself but having a true point guard to find him could be special. Here's to hoping that combo leads to Allen's jersey in the rafters. One of my favorite players to ever wear a Duke jersey.

[Indoor66]

I think we've grown a little spoiled expecting Coach K to always find a way to tweak our system for the current personnel. We had a lot of talent this past season, and a decent amount of experience, but there were glaring holes in the roster (mainly at center and point guard). Maybe in a season where Coach K was, himself, healthy, he would have found a way to cover up those deficiencies. As it were, we had a solid season but certainly not the one most of us were expecting.

To be honest with the situation, there were glaring injuries that led to glaring holes in the roster and the defense. I do not recall any season at Duke with the breadth and depth and term of injuries as we saw last year. It is hard to tweak every week.

[elvis14]

Everytime I bring up DBR and I see the thread title "Welcometo Duke, Trevon Duval" is makes me smile. :)
Just thought you all would want to know.

[jv001]

I have ingrained in my mind the recurring scene of Luke getting beat by his man and responding with an unhappy shrug. I don't doubt his effort, but he really did not play adequate defense.

I remember seeing the same scene many times regarding Luke's defense. That unhappy shrug and times where he looked at other players, like he was blaming them. It made me go back and watch the games to see how Luke performed on defense and it wasn't pretty. There were many times that he failed to switch on defense. There were other times that he failed to block out because he was running out for the fast break. One such time, he was pulled out of the game at the next time out. I took it as a teaching moment from Coach K but I wasn't on the bench, so I don't know that for a fact. I loved Luke and he really came through on the offensive end. Matter of fact, we would have been in big trouble without his great year shooting the ball. But we're discussing defense and this how I saw it play out.
Good luck Luke with your pro career and GoDuke!

[English]

I actually disagree - I thought the strategy as a whole looked rough because Harry was told to do it also and clearly didn't have the lateral quickness back to pull it off. Bolden was pretty quick about it and seemed to be able to create a bit of havoc on D.

That said, I do think we should probably avoid making that high hedge too predictable. Should be a now and then thing, methinks.

I co-sign this, and it actually reminds me of the game a couple seasons ago when Miami walloped us and, post-game, their PG made a comment about how Larranaga prepped his team on offense against Duke. The PG said they knew exactly what defense Duke was going to run, how they would guard the PnR, and the Miami players absolutely annihilated it. That was, IIRC, just before Coach K added wrinkles of zone and mixed things up on that end to great results.

Now, I acknowledge that adding wrinkles like this, or a variety of defensive looks, complicates things for a young team learning the system. I'm not sophisticated enough in Xs & Os hoops defense to suggest whether the investment would be worth the return or if it would lead to messy, defensive breakdowns. I'll leave that to the more technically inclined.

[TruBlu]

Last year I personally favored the 2-3-2 zone.

[flyingdutchdevil]

Last year I personally favored the 2-3-2 zone.

But even with 7 players on the court, I don't our defense would have been top 20.

[devildeac]

But even with 7 players on the court, I don't our defense would have been top 20.

K still wouldn't have gone 7 deep...

:o

[flyingdutchdevil]

K still wouldn't have gone 7 deep...

:o

What about 6.5? Or does Luke's D count as 0.5?

[devildeac]

What about 6.5? Or does Luke's D count as 0.5?

1. I think 6.5 only works in DBR discussions :rolleyes:.

2. You're being generous with the 0.5 :o.

[AtlDuke72]

[QUOTE=flyingdutchdevil;981605]As you said, it's addition by subtraction on the defensive end without Kennard.

You have got to be kidding. Kennard would have been first team All American this year.

[flyingdutchdevil]

[QUOTE=flyingdutchdevil;981605]As you said, it's addition by subtraction on the defensive end without Kennard.

You have got to be kidding. Kennard would have been first team All American this year.

You clearly didn't read the word "defensively" in my post.

[brlftz]

OMG, I didn't realize how much I've missed our having a real PG until watching this. It was so beautiful it made me tear up.

I'm really hoping this is a life-changing circumstance for Marquise - having a PG who can get him the ball while he's in a position to score

[flyingdutchdevil]

I'm really hoping this is a life-changing circumstance for Marquise - having a PG who can get him the ball while he's in a position to score

Marques. I have to agree. If Duval is half as good as we think he is, Bolden and Carter should get plenty of easy buckets. Also, our alley-oops and transition points should go up 3-fold.

[dukebluesincebirth]

I'm really looking forward to this as well. There's nothing like a PG who can push the ball in transition with speed and precision. It's very difficult to contain. And Tricky Tre is strong and athletic enough to get some defensive rebounds, which can automatically turn into a fast break. He just needs some fast athletes to run the lanes alongside him on the break. I hope Bolden and Carter are up to speed for it. I could also see Delaurier being really good with Duval on fast breaks because it enables him to use his athleticism without having to have polished low post moves.

[thedukelamere]

I'm really looking forward to this as well. There's nothing like a PG who can push the ball in transition with speed and precision. It's very difficult to contain. And Tricky Tre is strong and athletic enough to get some defensive rebounds, which can automatically turn into a fast break. He just needs some fast athletes to run the lanes alongside him on the break. I hope Bolden and Carter are up to speed for it. I could also see Delaurier being really good with Duval on fast breaks because it enables him to use his athleticism without having to have polished low post moves.

^^This^^

With Tre on board, assuming they mesh and it's in Coach's gameplan for our offensive tempo, I think Javin could have a breakout year with plenty of Top 10 dunks (assuming SportsCenter still does those somewhere in between their witch-hunts and Lavar Ball coverage).

[jv001]

I'm really looking forward to this as well. There's nothing like a PG who can push the ball in transition with speed and precision. It's very difficult to contain. And Tricky Tre is strong and athletic enough to get some defensive rebounds, which can automatically turn into a fast break. He just needs some fast athletes to run the lanes alongside him on the break. I hope Bolden and Carter are up to speed for it. I could also see Delaurier being really good with Duval on fast breaks because it enables him to use his athleticism without having to have polished low post moves.

And don't leave out Grayson who was pretty fast at getting down the court with the basketball. I believe defensive rebounding will be key in our getting out on the fast break. GoDuke!

[COYS]

And don't leave out Grayson who was pretty fast at getting down the court with the basketball. I believe defensive rebounding will be key in our getting out on the fast break. GoDuke!

The strangest thing about last season was how poor our fast-break offense was, especially after Grayson got hurt. With a hobbled Grayson alongside the relatively slow Luke and Matt, our guards just couldn't push the ball. Frank didn't have many opportunities for fast breaks and even when he did, he was much more of a scorer rather than a passer. Next season will be different. Trevon is born to run. Grayson should be healthy. I really hope we see an uptick in easy transition buckets.

[Devilwin]

To be honest with the situation, there were glaring injuries that led to glaring holes in the roster and the defense. I do not recall any season at Duke with the breadth and depth and term of injuries as we saw last year. It is hard to tweak every week.

The team never really got a chance to jell into a solid unit this past season. Hopefully, this team can avoid the stuff that hurt us last season. Certainly enough talent on hand to compete now.

[CDu]

The strangest thing about last season was how poor our fast-break offense was, especially after Grayson got hurt. With a hobbled Grayson alongside the relatively slow Luke and Matt, our guards just couldn't push the ball. Frank didn't have many opportunities for fast breaks and even when he did, he was much more of a scorer rather than a passer. Next season will be different. Trevon is born to run. Grayson should be healthy. I really hope we see an uptick in easy transition buckets.

When you don't get stops, you don't get transition baskets. And when you don't have ballhandlers capable of pushing pace on top of that, you really don't get transition baskets.

[DukieInBrasil]

The team never really got a chance to jell into a solid unit this past season. Hopefully, this team can avoid the stuff that hurt us last season. Certainly enough talent on hand to compete now.

There was something tragically inept about our fast-break offense last year, it was atrociously offensive. Healthy Grayson can run the break pretty well, hobbled Grayson not so much. I remember on multiple occasions last year when Grayson had the ball in the lane on the f.b. and decided he didn't want to try for the bucket over a defender (possibly a wise move) and tried to pass out and ended up turning the ball over for a easy transition bucket for the other team. Maybe even multiple times in the same game. My memory is that our f.b. offense actually hurt us more than it helped us, via turnovers like i just described, via bricked shots that ended up as f.b. for the other team and also just the deflation of momentum caused by knowing that they had really messed up a good opportunity.
Luke seldom made bad passes on the break, but he's not fast enough to run it effectively. He's perfectly fast enough to run a Jon Scheyer break, but then again, he's not Jon Scheyer. Frank could step on the gas, and with clear lanes he finished pretty well, but his court vision was not very good. Let's not talk about Matt Jones running the break.
Overall, our fast break offense probably graded out somewhere around a D-

[dukefan_828]

There was something tragically inept about our fast-break offense last year, it was atrociously offensive. Healthy Grayson can run the break pretty well, hobbled Grayson not so much. I remember on multiple occasions last year when Grayson had the ball in the lane on the f.b. and decided he didn't want to try for the bucket over a defender (possibly a wise move) and tried to pass out and ended up turning the ball over for a easy transition bucket for the other team. Maybe even multiple times in the same game. My memory is that our f.b. offense actually hurt us more than it helped us, via turnovers like i just described, via bricked shots that ended up as f.b. for the other team and also just the deflation of momentum caused by knowing that they had really messed up a good opportunity.
Luke seldom made bad passes on the break, but he's not fast enough to run it effectively. He's perfectly fast enough to run a Jon Scheyer break, but then again, he's not Jon Scheyer. Frank could step on the gas, and with clear lanes he finished pretty well, but his court vision was not very good. Let's not talk about Matt Jones running the break.
Overall, our fast break offense probably graded out somewhere around a D-

Yes it was quite atrocious!!! But we will leave the past in the past. I think Grayson was still an elite level wing player most of last year even through the injuries definatly limited his explosiveness and lift on the jumper which is what makes him such a special talent. Look for him to have a MUCH improved sr campaign and boy how nice will it be to have a true PG with such athleticism!!! I'm expecting alot of lobs and nasty dunks for GA, Marques, Javin the human Dunk Machine, Vrank and Co. Can't wait to see these guys get out and run on the break!!!!!! WOOOOOOOOOH

[Troublemaker]

Nice breakdown of Duval's offensive game:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dAZWalAT98o

[dukelifer]

Nice breakdown of Duval's offensive game:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dAZWalAT98o

The kid is very good. The big guys are going to be better with him running the show as he can get them the ball. Not sure he is in Tyus's league in controlling tempo but he is more athletic. Seems to have everything but a consistent jumper from deep. Still he will complement Allen very well. Duke could use another reliable shooter from deep. It will be interesting to see who emerges.

[Jim3k]

The Kyrie comparisons aren't right to me because Kyrie wasn't this athletic but had one of the best shots in college. Duval's athleticism is off the charts for college.

Huh? Kyrie wasn't this athletic? Yes, he was...and is. Trevon and Kyrie are in the same college category, a category that very few have the good fortune to attain. Objectively, though, Trevon is not clearly more athletic than the same-age Kyrie. (Today's Kyrie...well, he's the Cavs' point guard starting in the NBA finals, and in possession of a ring from last year.) Who's better, Irving or Curry? The answer to that question is meaningless in assessing Duval or his future. Duval does have the athleticism to get there. Will he? I sure hope so. But asserting he is better than Curry is premature.

[CDu]

Huh? Kyrie wasn't this athletic? Yes, he was...and is. Trevon and Kyrie are in the same college category, a category that very few have the good fortune to attain. Objectively, though, Trevon is not clearly more athletic than the same-age Kyrie. (Today's Kyrie...well, he's the Cavs' point guard starting in the NBA finals, and in possession of a ring from last year.) Who's better, Irving or Curry? The answer to that question is meaningless in assessing Duval or his future. Duval does have the athleticism to get there. Will he? I sure hope so. But asserting he is better than Curry is premature.

Irving is not the same sort of run-jump athlete as Duval. He wasn't, and isn't, a guy who will dunk on you. But he was/is incredibly clever and crafty with both his dribble and his touch around the hoop.

Both guys are athletic in their own ways, but not all that similar.

[COYS]

Nice breakdown of Duval's offensive game:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dAZWalAT98o

Very cool. Thanks for sharing. I liked seeing so many nifty lefty finishes. A guy with his athleticism and quickness who can also finish with his left hand is going to be devastating on drives to the hoop. I can't wait to see him suit up for Duke.

[sagegrouse]

Irving is not the same sort of run-jump athlete as Duval. He wasn't, and isn't, a guy who will dunk on you. But he was/is incredibly clever and crafty with both his dribble and his touch around the hoop.

Both guys are athletic in their own ways, but not all that similar.

IMHO (where the H ran away with spoon in early 2007), Kyrie is one of the best athletes on the planet. His coordination, reflexes, quickness, and ability to see the court and react to the play are off the charts, and they were on display in his first college game. By the way, I don't discount his jumping ability, but dunking is not his style of play -- good -- fewer injuries.

[53n206]

The kid is very good. The big guys are going to be better with him running the show as he can get them the ball. Not sure he is in Tyus's league in controlling tempo but he is more athletic. Seems to have everything but a consistent jumper from deep. Still he will complement Allen very well. Duke could use another reliable shooter from deep. It will be interesting to see who emerges.

Goodness gracious! Can't wait. We've been missing this talent for a few years. If our defense and rebounding can improve we'll be really strong

[Edouble]

IMHO (where the H ran away with spoon in early 2007), Kyrie is one of the best athletes on the planet. His coordination, reflexes, quickness, and ability to see the court and react to the play are off the charts, and they were on display in his first college game. By the way, I don't discount his jumping ability, but dunking is not his style of play -- good -- fewer injuries.

Of these, I would only consider quickness to be part of the definition of athleticism.

[Olympic Fan]

Of these, I would only consider quickness to be part of the definition of athleticism.

My definition of athleticism would include:

1 -- quickness

2. -- hops

3. -- strength

4. -- reflexes

5. -- hand-eye coordination

The ability to see the court and the understanding of the game are qualities I prize, but I don't consider them athleticism.

[sagegrouse]

Of these, I would only consider quickness to be part of the definition of athleticism.

Lessee.... coordination and reflexes are not part of athleticism. Hunh? Coordination and reflexes are the core of athleticism.

[CDu]

Irving was/is definitely athletic. Duval is definitely athletic. The two are not athletic in similar ways.

[NM Duke Fan]

Irving was/is definitely athletic. Duval is definitely athletic. The two are not athletic in similar ways.

Agreed! Watching videos of Duval what jumps out at me is explosive POWER, he seems to really relish slamming the ball down defender's throats in a sudden explosion backed by a lot of strength and sheer indomitable will. Irving is and was incredibly crafty, shifty, quick, but does not have that level of intimidating power. I am trying to remember a Duke point guard quite at the same level of power, but Duval at least on video seems a cut above. Like a super-charged sports car that almost breaks your neck if you floor it!

[CDu]

Agreed! Watching videos of Duval what jumps out at me is explosive POWER, he seems to really relish slamming the ball down defender's throats in a sudden explosion backed by a lot of strength and sheer indomitable will. Irving is and was incredibly crafty, shifty, quick, but does not have that level of intimidating power. I am trying to remember a Duke point guard quite at the same level of power, but Duval at least on video seems a cut above. Like a super-charged sports car that almost breaks your neck if you floor it!

In terms of athleticism, the closest Duke comp would be Jason Williams. But Duval is taller and not as strong (not weak, mind you; just that Williams was a bulldozer). Physically, Derrick Rose is the comp that makes the most sense.

[Jim3k]

When Kyrie came to Duke in 2010, he was listed at 6-2, 180. The Cavs have him listed at 6-3, 193. Sizewise, there's not much difference as Duval is listed at 6-3, 191. As I see it, those 10 fewer freshman pounds with which Kyrie arrived were generally meaningless in terms of his power. He was an excellent dunker when he wanted to be. But that was not his role and I suspect some of us here mostly recall his wizardry with the ball, leaving his leaping ability in the recesses of our minds. Similarly, Duval's role will not require him to try to bull his way to the basket, but to be the lead guard. Like Kyrie, he will be starting the offense, involving his teammates. Just because Duval can leap, doesn't mean he will.

I don't know if Duval will demonstrate wizard-level ball handling to Kyrie's level, but he will likely be close. So, I really don't think there is any basis to conclude that he's a better athlete or even a much different style athlete than Irving. IMO, this whole argument is kind of feckless.

As Sage said, Irving is one of the best athletes on the planet. Duval may be as well. But let's wait and see before heightening expectations without evidence. College basketball will prove it one way or another.

[CDu]

When Kyrie came to Duke in 2010, he was listed at 6-2, 180. The Cavs have him listed at 6-3, 193. Sizewise, there's not much difference as Duval is listed at 6-3, 191. As I see it, those 10 fewer freshman pounds with which Kyrie arrived were generally meaningless in terms of his power. He was an excellent dunker when he wanted to be. But that was not his role and I suspect some of us here mostly recall his wizardry with the ball, leaving his leaping ability in the recesses of our minds. Similarly, Duval's role will not require him to try to bull his way to the basket, but to be the lead guard. Like Kyrie, he will be starting the offense, involving his teammates. Just because Duval can leap, doesn't mean he will.

I don't know if Duval will demonstrate wizard-level ball handling to Kyrie's level, but he will likely be close. So, I really don't think there is any basis to conclude that he's a better athlete or even a much different style athlete than Irving. IMO, this whole argument is kind of feckless.

As Sage said, Irving is one of the best athletes on the planet. Duval may be as well. But let's wait and see before heightening expectations without evidence. College basketball will prove it one way or another.

Nobody is saying Irving wasn't a great athlete. But he does not have the same vertical that Duval has. Irving was certainly a capable dunker. But he was not - and is not - in Duval's category as a leaper/dunker. Conversely, Duval doesn't have some of Irving's attributes. I think Irving's quickness was better, and certainly his ballhandling/dribbling skill was better.

The two are different types of great athlete.

Irving was also more skilled - especially as a shooter - than Duval.

None of this discussion is meant to compare the two as basketball players. I feel quite strongly that Irving was a better prospect than Duval is. But the two have quite different athletic gifts. It is okay to admit that Duval does some things better than Irving while also understanding that he isn't the same level prospect that Irving was.

[flyingdutchdevil]

When Kyrie came to Duke in 2010, he was listed at 6-2, 180. The Cavs have him listed at 6-3, 193. Sizewise, there's not much difference as Duval is listed at 6-3, 191. As I see it, those 10 fewer freshman pounds with which Kyrie arrived were generally meaningless in terms of his power. He was an excellent dunker when he wanted to be. But that was not his role and I suspect some of us here mostly recall his wizardry with the ball, leaving his leaping ability in the recesses of our minds. Similarly, Duval's role will not require him to try to bull his way to the basket, but to be the lead guard. Like Kyrie, he will be starting the offense, involving his teammates. Just because Duval can leap, doesn't mean he will.

I don't know if Duval will demonstrate wizard-level ball handling to Kyrie's level, but he will likely be close. So, I really don't think there is any basis to conclude that he's a better athlete or even a much different style athlete than Irving. IMO, this whole argument is kind of feckless.

As Sage said, Irving is one of the best athletes on the planet. Duval may be as well. But let's wait and see before heightening expectations without evidence. College basketball will prove it one way or another.

Do you consider Irving to be on the same athletic scale as Russell Westbrook? Because if you do, you may be on a lonely island.

As CDu has mentioned 3 times now, Irving is a different type of athlete. He's arguably the most agile PG in the game. He's insanely quick (although I'm not sure how fast he really is). On those athletic scales, he's clearly at or near the top. But in terms of strength, leaping ability, and length, Irving is not near the top. As a matter of fact, he's likely in the bottom 50%. And that's okay. Because Kyrie has clearly overcome these weaknesses on offense.

Duval doesn't have the agility/dexterity of Irving (yet). But his strength, leaping ability, and length (6'9" compared to Kyrie's 6'3-4") give Duval the genetic tools to be more athletic is those metrics. If this has a Decathlon, I'd take Duval over Irving.

And no, I don't think this argument is feckless. I think it's interesting.

[NM Duke Fan]

Do you consider Irving to be on the same athletic scale as Russell Westbrook? Because if you do, you may be on a lonely island.

As CDu has mentioned 3 times now, Irving is a different type of athlete. He's arguably the most agile PG in the game. He's insanely quick (although I'm not sure how fast he really is). On those athletic scales, he's clearly at or near the top. But in terms of strength, leaping ability, and length, Irving is not near the top. As a matter of fact, he's likely in the bottom 50%. And that's okay. Because Kyrie has clearly overcome these weaknesses on offense.

Duval doesn't have the agility/dexterity of Irving (yet). But his strength, leaping ability, and length (6'9" compared to Kyrie's 6'3-4") give Duval the genetic tools to be more athletic is those metrics. If this has a Decathlon, I'd take Duval over Irving.

And no, I don't think this argument is feckless. I think it's interesting.

I also think it is interesting, that is why I bothered to post! Great point about the comparative wingspan, huge difference.

Re the comparison with Rose that CDu mentioned, I don't watch enough pro ball to make good comparisons, and since you know a lot about the pro game, I will accept that comparison gladly.

[flyingdutchdevil]

I also think it is interesting, that is why I bothered to post! Great point about the comparative wingspan, huge difference.

Re the comparison with Rose that CDu mentioned, I don't watch enough pro ball to make good comparisons, and since you know a lot about the pro game, I will accept that comparison gladly.

ESPN made the Duval/Westbrook comparison. I think it's a little far fetched (it's like comparing Jabari Parker to Lebron. Sure - same size and incredibly athleticism, but they aren't in the same league). But the body-types are similar and the athleticism looks to be on the same page. You don't see PGs zig-zagging through defenses and then dunking on PFs/Cs.

[DukieInBrasil]

ESPN made the Duval/Westbrook comparison. I think it's a little far fetched (it's like comparing Jabari Parker to Lebron. Sure - same size and incredibly athleticism, but they aren't in the same league). But the body-types are similar and the athleticism looks to be on the same page. You don't see PGs zig-zagging through defenses and then dunking on PFs/Cs.

Well, obviously, Duval is an exact perfect hybrid between Kryrie and Westbrook. :cool:

[English]

When Kyrie came to Duke in 2010, he was listed at 6-2, 180. The Cavs have him listed at 6-3, 193. Sizewise, there's not much difference as Duval is listed at 6-3, 191. As I see it, those 10 fewer freshman pounds with which Kyrie arrived were generally meaningless in terms of his power. He was an excellent dunker when he wanted to be. But that was not his role and I suspect some of us here mostly recall his wizardry with the ball, leaving his leaping ability in the recesses of our minds. Similarly, Duval's role will not require him to try to bull his way to the basket, but to be the lead guard. Like Kyrie, he will be starting the offense, involving his teammates. Just because Duval can leap, doesn't mean he will.

I don't know if Duval will demonstrate wizard-level ball handling to Kyrie's level, but he will likely be close. So, I really don't think there is any basis to conclude that he's a better athlete or even a much different style athlete than Irving. IMO, this whole argument is kind of feckless.

As Sage said, Irving is one of the best athletes on the planet. Duval may be as well. But let's wait and see before heightening expectations without evidence. College basketball will prove it one way or another.

Sorry to re-initiate a feckless argument, but I'm thoroughly confused by the bolded--certainly Duval/s role won't be exclusively putting his head down and forcing his way to the tin, but getting to the basket has been universally noted as a strength of his game. Yes, his role on the team will be both as a lead guard/distributor, as well as helping Duke do what it needs to win games, including scoring at the rim (occasionally with monster dunks). I'm hoping Duval does, many times throughout the season, use his prowess as an explosive leaper to dunk on opposing teams.

Further, Trevon Duval has been noted as having a questionable jumper. The strength of his game is getting into the lane and finishing or distributing. He's more Derrick Rose or Westbrook than Chris Paul or Kemba Walker. If he's not getting into the lane with his size and athleticism, he's neglecting a major advantage of his game.

[yancem]

Sorry to re-initiate a feckless argument, but I'm thoroughly confused by the bolded--certainly Duval/s role won't be exclusively putting his head down and forcing his way to the tin, but getting to the basket has been universally noted as a strength of his game. Yes, his role on the team will be both as a lead guard/distributor, as well as helping Duke do what it needs to win games, including scoring at the rim (occasionally with monster dunks). I'm hoping Duval does, many times throughout the season, use his prowess as an explosive leaper to dunk on opposing teams.

Further, Trevon Duval has been noted as having a questionable jumper. The strength of his game is getting into the lane and finishing or distributing. He's more Derrick Rose or Westbrook than Chris Paul or Kemba Walker. If he's not getting into the lane with his size and athleticism, he's neglecting a major advantage of his game.

I've also heard John Wall as a possible comparison. As for the Irving comparison/debate, the one area where I have heard a comparison between the two is in the area of ball handling. Duval is not at Irving's current level but probably isn't too far behind senior high school/freshman college Irving. Duval has a really tight handle and routinely makes defenders look foolish with how he moves the ball around.

[flyingdutchdevil]

I've also heard John Wall as a possible comparison. As for the Irving comparison/debate, the one area where I have heard a comparison between the two is in the area of ball handling. Duval is not at Irving's current level but probably isn't too far behind senior high school/freshman college Irving. Duval has a really tight handle and routinely makes defenders look foolish with how he moves the ball around.

The most important thing about Duval's dribbling is that he keeps his head up, which few PGs do. The vast majority of elite college guards - especially freshman - keep their heads down. Keeping your head up allows for easy distribution. It's what will make Duval so good at passing.

[cato]

I've also heard John Wall as a possible comparison. As for the Irving comparison/debate, the one area where I have heard a comparison between the two is in the area of ball handling. Duval is not at Irving's current level but probably isn't too far behind senior high school/freshman college Irving. Duval has a really tight handle and routinely makes defenders look foolish with how he moves the ball around.

If true, I'll be ecstatic. Recall Kyrie on the USA Select team, one year removed from his freshman year at Duke? In case not:
https://youtu.be/a9MfQKnvEkk

[sagegrouse]

I've also heard John Wall as a possible comparison. As for the Irving comparison/debate, the one area where I have heard a comparison between the two is in the area of ball handling. Duval is not at Irving's current level but probably isn't too far behind senior high school/freshman college Irving. Duval has a really tight handle and routinely makes defenders look foolish with how he moves the ball around.

We should know if Duval is in Kyrie's league after only a few games games next fall. Kyrie dismantled a preseason All-American and SI cover guy, Jacob Pullen of #4 Kansas State, in game #5.

[CDu]

We should know if Duval is in Kyrie's league after only a few games games next fall. Kyrie dismantled a preseason All-American and SI cover guy, Jacob Pullen of #4 Kansas State, in game #5.

As a player? I have no belief that Duval will be as good as Irving was. I think Duval will be quite good, just not Irving good.

[Troublemaker]

As a player? I have no belief that Duval will be as good as Irving was. I think Duval will be quite good, just not Irving good.

Yeah, even though I've posted many times how badly I wanted Duval on this team, I don't expect him to be as good as Kyrie or even Tyus. I think he'll be very good and better than Derryck as a freshman, though. I'm hoping for something like what De'Aaron Fox brought to Kentucky last season.

[UrinalCake]

Kyrie definitely has lateral quickness and shiftiness and can read his defender and elude the block; but he isn't the run/jump athlete that Duval is, as others have mentioned. The longer wingspan and greater athleticism give me hope that Duval may be a better defender - we tend to forget but Kyrie was a pretty bad defender in his short Duke career, and that label has followed him into the pros. I also think Duval has the tools to be a better distributor than Kyrie, he seems to see the floor well and stay under control, although they are both score-first point guards.

I hesitate to make too many judgments based on high school mix tapes though. If I recall, Kyrie wasn't even the highest rated point guard in his class, that was either Josh Selby or Brandon Knight, both of whom were bigger and more athletic. And I remember some of Derryck's mixtapes made him look awesome, some people thought he had OAD potential based on his moves and dunking ability.

[Jim3k]

The strength of his [Duval's] game is getting into the lane and finishing or distributing.


Hmm. Curious comment. Seems to me that is one of Kyrie's well-honed skills. He finishes inside--any way he can--driving, slick shot, dunk, passing off, whatever works. And, he showed it as a freshman.

[CDu]

Kyrie definitely has lateral quickness and shiftiness and can read his defender and elude the block; but he isn't the run/jump athlete that Duval is, as others have mentioned. The longer wingspan and greater athleticism give me hope that Duval may be a better defender - we tend to forget but Kyrie was a pretty bad defender in his short Duke career, and that label has followed him into the pros. I also think Duval has the tools to be a better distributor than Kyrie, he seems to see the floor well and stay under control, although they are both score-first point guards.

I hesitate to make too many judgments based on high school mix tapes though. If I recall, Kyrie wasn't even the highest rated point guard in his class, that was either Josh Selby or Brandon Knight, both of whom were bigger and more athletic. And I remember some of Derryck's mixtapes made him look awesome, some people thought he had OAD potential based on his moves and dunking ability.

Irving was the #1 PG by the final scouting composite rankings. He trailed Knight earlier on, but eventually overtook Knight. Only Sullinger and Barnes were ranked above Irving.

Thornton, on the other hand, wasn't quite on the same level. He was in the teens in a weaker recruiting class. But a big part of why Thornton struggled was because he missed the summer finishing his high school credits. So he was behind the curve by a good bit. And for a young-ish PG trying to learn the system, that was a big problem.

I think Duval will be notably better than Thornton but not as good as Irving.

[NSDukeFan]

Kyrie definitely has lateral quickness and shiftiness and can read his defender and elude the block; but he isn't the run/jump athlete that Duval is, as others have mentioned. The longer wingspan and greater athleticism give me hope that Duval may be a better defender - we tend to forget but Kyrie was a pretty bad defender in his short Duke career, and that label has followed him into the pros. I also think Duval has the tools to be a better distributor than Kyrie, he seems to see the floor well and stay under control, although they are both score-first point guards.

I hesitate to make too many judgments based on high school mix tapes though. If I recall, Kyrie wasn't even the highest rated point guard in his class, that was either Josh Selby or Brandon Knight, both of whom were bigger and more athletic. And I remember some of Derryck's mixtapes made him look awesome, some people thought he had OAD potential based on his moves and dunking ability.

I thought Kyrie was a very good defender in his short time at Duke. He went up against some of the best point guards in the country and more than held his own.

[moonpie23]

i'm pretty sure that Duval will have a massive chip on his shoulder from reading this thread......


we'll know by thanksgiving...

[CDu]

I thought Kyrie was a very good defender in his short time at Duke. He went up against some of the best point guards in the country and more than held his own.

Well, he only faced two teams with good PGs prior to his injury: KSU and MSU. And my memory is that Nolan Smith did the heavy lifting defensively on PGs in those games. I don't think Irving really had much of any resume defensively at Duke, neither good nor bad.

[CDu]

i'm pretty sure that Duval will have a massive chip on his shoulder from reading this thread...


we'll know by thanksgiving...

Why? Because some folks have the audacity to say he probably won't be quite as good as one of the most talented players in the NBA? If anything, I would say this thread is pretty vomplimentary to Duval.

[moonpie23]

i can't imagine anyone on Duval's talent level being told he "won't be as good as _______" and take it as a vompliment...

[Edouble]

Lessee... coordination and reflexes are not part of athleticism. Hunh? Coordination and reflexes are the core of athleticism.

No, they are not. It's pretty much a cliché to see a young, athletic big man who can run and jump, but has no coordination or reflexes.

[jv001]

No, they are not. It's pretty much a cliché to see a young, athletic big man who can run and jump, but has no coordination or reflexes.

Yeh, I still believe there should be an NBA league for 6 foot and under players. Spud Webb would have been a great center. Matter of fact, there should be a college league for 6 foot and under players. :cool: GoDuke!

[Indoor66]

i can't imagine anyone on Duval's talent level being told he "won't be as good as _______" and take it as a vompliment...

Please.

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

Yeh, I still believe there should be an NBA league for 6 foot and under players. Spud Webb would have been a great center. Matter of fact, there should be a college league for 6 foot and under players. :cool: GoDuke!

Were that true, I would have steadfastly insisted my true height to be 5'11.5.

[killerleft]

Hedging was actually the only thing Marques did well last season, and he was a much more effective pick-and-roll defender than Harry.

In any case, we didn't use the hedge in either the 14-15 season or the 15-16 season before it suddenly reappeared in 16-17. Because, I imagine, the staff was trying various things to see if they could fix our PnR defense, which unfortunately they never WERE able to. But I suspect we'll return to the recent status quo of not hedging next season. I think what Duke WANTS to do regularly is to ice the side PnRs and do a soft show on the middle PnRs, but I'd like us to do a straight dropback on the middle PnRs instead; however, as mentioned before, that will require our guards to get over screens better, and there IS potential for that this season with better defensive talent out front.

I don't think Duke's defense is complicated. It's possible that Duke's defense focuses too much on guarding 3s at the expense of giving up 2s too easily. But it's not complex.

Also, note that UVA performs a hard hedge close to 100% of the time, and they have a great defense every year. The hedge, like any other tactic, can be a positive if you have the talent to execute it.

That's what I thought, too. He may have looked awkward, but Marques has the height and long arms to dissuade the passer from taking the chance to beat him back inside. I would be surprised if this was NOT a feature of our defense in the coming season.

[sagegrouse]

No, they are not. It's pretty much a cliché to see a young, athletic big man who can run and jump, but has no coordination or reflexes.

Then he is not an athlete. He's a bozo.

[jimsumner]

No, they are not. It's pretty much a cliché to see a young, athletic big man who can run and jump, but has no coordination or reflexes.

Also known as Casey Sanders.

The object lesson in how running fast and jumping high does not equate to great athleticism.

[CDu]

Also known as Casey Sanders.

The object lesson in how running fast and jumping high does not equate to great athleticism.

Well, yes and no. Running fast and jumping high DOES equate to great athleticism. Just not necessarily great functional athleticism as it pertains to basketball.

Usain Bolt is an unbelievable athlete. I'd venture that he is probably a pretty terrible basketball player. His running fast doesn't translate to functional basketball athleticism. But it would be folly to suggest he is not a great athlete.

[sagegrouse]

Well, yes and no. Running fast and jumping high DOES equate to great athleticism. Just not necessarily great functional athleticism as it pertains to basketball.

Usain Bolt is an unbelievable athlete. I'd venture that he is probably a pretty terrible basketball player. His running fast doesn't translate to functional basketball athleticism. But it would be folly to suggest he is not a great athlete.

He looks pretty athletic to me -- and I don't mean "fast." Guys that can run and jump at a world class level are almost always outstanding athletes.

For example, I just found this story:


Olympic legend Usain Bolt is considering a post-running career in soccer, according to The Guardian.

The 30-year-old Jamaican is a big Manchester United fan and said he has been talking with people about playing soccer, also saying that he will train with Borussia Dortmund.

He is set to spend two days training with the Bundesliga club in the coming weeks, and will "see what happens."

Bolt is one of the world's most iconic sports figures and took home three gold medals this summer at the Rio Olympics. As for soccer, his insane speed would likely see him play on the wing while training, but it's hard to envision him just jumping from a sprinter to a pro soccer player. But hey, it doesn't hurt to try.

Closer to home, Duke legend and six-time world-record holder Dave Sime led the ACC in batting, and -- during my tenure at Duke -- scored 30+ points in a charity basketball game with other college athletes.

I urge you to look for a world-class athlete who doesn't excel in a variety of sports.

[Troublemaker]

That's what I thought, too. He may have looked awkward, but Marques has the height and long arms to dissuade the passer from taking the chance to beat him back inside. I would be surprised if this was NOT a feature of our defense in the coming season.

I sort of doubt it because I don't think we want to hedge as our default coverage; like I wrote, we didn't use it much at all the previous two seasons. Another factor is whether Wendell can hedge well; in a limited sample from high school all-star games when he was asked to hedge, it didn't look promising.

What I'd like to see us do next season is put the onus on the athletic and long Duval to get over screens. If he can do that, then the big can drop back. See the below example video of great NBA PG defenders getting over screens, which allows their bigs to drop. In any case, whatever we do, the PNR defense has to be much better next season. It was probably our single biggest weakness last season, imo. Even with the poor transition D and poor 1-on-1 penetration defense at times, if we had just played the PNR well, we'd probably have been a top-25 defense.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TmrxZTxvz0w

[CrazyNotCrazie]

He looks pretty athletic to me -- and I don't mean "fast." Guys that can run and jump at a world class level are almost always outstanding athletes.

For example, I just found this story:



Closer to home, Duke legend and six-time world-record holder Dave Sime led the ACC in batting, and -- during my tenure at Duke -- scored 30+ points in a charity basketball game with other college athletes.

I urge you to look for a world-class athlete who doesn't excel in a variety of sports.

I always defined a great athlete as one who could pick up a random sport they have never played before and quickly excel at it. I always mentally use the example of Team Handball, which they play in the Olympics. It involves running, jumping, throwing and catching. It is generally not played in the US, though it is a lot of fun to watch. But I'm guessing if you stuck LeBron James out there he would be excellent at it very quickly. This compares to someone who masters a skill very specific to their sport, but that is the extent of their athletic abilities.

[Edouble]

Well, yes and no. Running fast and jumping high DOES equate to great athleticism. Just not necessarily great functional athleticism as it pertains to basketball.

My point exactly.

I actually typed out a few examples: Casey Sanders, young Miles Plumlee, Javin DeLaurier, although ultimately decided against naming names. But now that Casey Sanders has been mentioned, I may as well spill.

I am not sure that you can say that any of these guys are unathletic. Also not sure that you can say they have high level coordination or reflexes.