Stick a fork in Tiger, he is done

[DUKIECB]

http://www.espn.com/golf/story/_/id/19202775/tiger-woods-another-back-surgery-alleviate-painThis is the fourth back surgery in just over three years. In my opinion he was already done but this is the nail in the coffin if you ask me. His competitive golfing days are over. I do not see him being in contention at a professional golf tournament ever again. What a shame. The cliff he plummeted off of is like none other in golfing history and most likely sporting history.

[Olympic Fan]

http://www.espn.com/golf/story/_/id/19202775/tiger-woods-another-back-surgery-alleviate-painThis is the fourth back surgery in just over three years. In my opinion he was already done but this is the nail in the coffin if you ask me. His competitive golfing days are over. I do not see him being in contention at a professional golf tournament ever again. What a shame. The cliff he plummeted off of is like none other in golfing history and most likely sporting history.

Which raises the question: If Tiger is indeed finished, is he the greatest golfer of all time? Or does that honor still reside with Jack Nicklaus?

Woods finished with 14 Majors and 79 PGA wins. You could bump that to 17 majors if you count his three US Amateur titles

Nicklaus finished with 18 majors, 73 PGA wins and 10 senior PGA wins. You can bump his majors to 20 if you count his two US Amateur titles.

Personally, I think Tiger was on track to catch the Bear, but if he's really finished, he came up just a but short.

[PackMan97]

What a great question.

What is greater? a candle that burns for longer or one that burns brighter?

There is no doubt that Tiger revolutionized the physical aspects of golf. He was a class of athlete that the game had never seen before. He forced everyone else to change the way they prepared to play the game. I wonder how much of Tiger's approach to the game resulted in his shortened career.

Sometimes I wish I could visit alternate realities where Tiger Woods grew up playing basketball, or the Williams sisters played soccer, or where Tim Duncan wasn't afraid of sharks, maybe one in which Jordan picked baseball over basketball in high school. I've always felt the elite athletes would succeed at whatever sport they play.

[DUKIECB]

Which raises the question: If Tiger is indeed finished, is he the greatest golfer of all time? Or does that honor still reside with Jack Nicklaus?

Woods finished with 14 Majors and 79 PGA wins. You could bump that to 17 majors if you count his three US Amateur titles

Nicklaus finished with 18 majors, 73 PGA wins and 10 senior PGA wins. You can bump his majors to 20 if you count his two US Amateur titles.

Personally, I think Tiger was on track to catch the Bear, but if he's really finished, he came up just a but short.

I think if you look at the totality of both careers it's hard to argue against Jack. Another stat you could add is 2nd place finishes in majors. Jack finished 2nd an astonishing 19 times giving him 37 1st or 2nd place finishes. I'm too lazy to look it up but I think Tiger only has 5 or 6 2nd place finishes.

I will say that at one point from late 1999 after winning the PGA to mid 2002 when he won the U.S. Open, Tiger was otherworldly and had a stretch that no other golfer has ever had. During that stretch he won 7 out of the 11 major championships played including the Tiger slam holding all 4 at once. That is almost unbelievable and I do not think we will ever see anything like that happen again.

[rasputin]

What a great question.

What is greater? a candle that burns for longer or one that burns brighter?

There is no doubt that Tiger revolutionized the physical aspects of golf. He was a class of athlete that the game had never seen before. He forced everyone else to change the way they prepared to play the game. I wonder how much of Tiger's approach to the game resulted in his shortened career.

Sometimes I wish I could visit alternate realities where Tiger Woods grew up playing basketball, or the Williams sisters played soccer, or where Tim Duncan wasn't afraid of sharks, maybe one in which Jordan picked baseball over basketball in high school. I've always felt the elite athletes would succeed at whatever sport they play.

Parts of the argument that Tiger's flame burned brighter are, first, all the media coverage he had, and second, the fact that he dominated the field. Jack's case was different, first, because the media that existed when Tiger emerged didn't exist in Jack's day, and second, because there was already a dominant golfer on the scene, and at his peak, when Jack emerged (I'm referring to Arnie, of course).

[FadedTackyShirt]

Sometimes I wish I could visit alternate realities where Tiger Woods grew up playing basketball, or the Williams sisters played soccer, or where Tim Duncan wasn't afraid of sharks, maybe one in which Jordan picked baseball over basketball in high school. I've always felt the elite athletes would succeed at whatever sport they play.

Jordan and Tiger had surprisingly low ceilings in gambling and womanizing...

[Tripping William]

Jordan and Tiger had surprisingly low ceilings in gambling and womanizing...

And their roofs were no higher, apparently. :rolleyes:

[OldPhiKap]

There is no doubt that Tiger revolutionized the physical aspects of golf. He was a class of athlete that the game had never seen before.

Jack did in his day as well. He was mega-long. The famous line around here in Augusta was from Bobby Jones, who said of Jack: "he plays a game with which I am not familiar."

[dudog84]

Which raises the question: If Tiger is indeed finished, is he the greatest golfer of all time? Or does that honor still reside with Jack Nicklaus?

Woods finished with 14 Majors and 79 PGA wins. You could bump that to 17 majors if you count his three US Amateur titles

Nicklaus finished with 18 majors, 73 PGA wins and 10 senior PGA wins. You can bump his majors to 20 if you count his two US Amateur titles.

Personally, I think Tiger was on track to catch the Bear, but if he's really finished, he came up just a but short.

8 of those 10 senior wins were senior majors. I assume that's about all he played after 50 from those numbers. Does anyone here really think Tiger is going to play the senior tour? I sure don't. But I also don't really count that a lot when assessing the best ever.

Jack also overcame a 54-hole deficit in 8 of his majors. It's interesting that Tiger never did. Not sure if that says more about him or his competition.

To another comment, Tiger won his 14 majors in 12 years...Jack won 14 of his in 14 years, so not that much of a difference. Though there was that short span where Tiger was almost untouchable.

I think there's no question that Jack has to be considered the best ever. Tiger could've been, but...

[OldPhiKap]

8 of those 10 senior wins were senior majors. I assume that's about all he played after 50 from those numbers. Does anyone here really think Tiger is going to play the senior tour? I sure don't. But I also don't really count that a lot when assessing the best ever.

Jack also overcame a 54-hole deficit in 8 of his majors. It's interesting that Tiger never did. Not sure if that says more about him or his competition.

To another comment, Tiger won his 14 majors in 12 years...Jack won 14 of his in 14 years, so not that much of a difference. Though there was that short span where Tiger was almost untouchable.

I think there's no question that Jack has to be considered the best ever. Tiger could've been, but...

A side question is -- which one had to face better competition? Jack, who fought Arnie and Gary and Tom? Or Tiger, who did not have a main rival but probably faced a deeper pool of talent?

[Jeffrey]

Which raises the question: If Tiger is indeed finished, is he the greatest golfer of all time? Or does that honor still reside with Jack Nicklaus?


Jack Nicklaus!

IMO, a player's career record is the measure. Just because Jordan Spieth became the youngest player to win two majors since Gene Sarazen, does not make Spieth the greatest golfer of all time.

[Jeffrey]

A side question is -- which one had to face better competition? Jack, who fought Arnie and Gary and Tom? Or Tiger, who did not have a main rival but probably faced a deeper pool of talent?

For Jack, let's add Trevino and Miller (great three year run).

IMO, Jack also faced the deeper pool of talent.

[CameronBornAndBred]

IMO, Jack also faced the deeper pool of talent.
A great debate within in its own right.

[-jk]

I don't know - did they rebuild courses to slow Jack? I seem to recall they did for Tiger...

-jk

[Tripping William]

Jack has the better overall career resume. But, at his peak (and that peak was probably a 10-year window between 1997 and 2007), Tiger was the best, most dominant golfer the planet has ever seen. Parse between those two as you will.

[duketaylor]

If Tiger doesn't return, and I think that's a big if, then Jack is easily the GOAT. I'll have to look, but how many times did Tiger finish runner-up in majors? I think Jack did 19 times. Tiger (as mentioned upthread) never came back to win a major, not that it really matters. I would argue Tiger was the best front-runner of all-time. It could also be argued (and has) that Tiger didn't have a Tom Watson (or insert another true rival). Lefty was a kinda-sorta and some young guys were coming along, but not a true rival.

Just my thoughts. Would love for Tiger to get healthy again and compete, golf is better with him. Just goes to show, IMO, that swinging so hard puts too much pressure on the back. I've always thought Tiger got too bulked-up, too strong. Seems strange, I know.

[Reilly]

... Bobby Jones, who said of Jack: "he plays a game with which I am not familiar."

"He plays third base like he came down from a higher league." umpire Ed Hurley on Brooks Robinson (http://baseballhall.org/hof/robinson-brooks).

[CDu]

Peak Tiger was the most dominant golfer ever. But if he fails to win 4 more majors (as is almost certain now) it is pretty clearly short of Nicklaus as the greatest golf career of all time.

[JasonEvans]

So, is the GOAT the best career or the best golfer? By that I mean, if you took peak Tiger, peak Arnie, and peak Jack and put them all on a course at the same time who would win? I think there is no question at all that Tiger is the answer. For a sorta brief period of time, about half a decade, Tiger Woods played the game better than anyone before or since (as CDu notes above). I think most would agree with that. So, does that make him the GOAT or does the longer career excellence of Jack push him over the top?

-Jason "this is fun" Evans

[duke79]

Peak Tiger was the most dominant golfer ever. But if he fails to win 4 more majors (as is almost certain now) it is pretty clearly short of Nicklaus as the greatest golf career of all time.

I (pretty much) agree with your succinct analysis. No doubt in my mind that, if Tiger had stayed healthy and had avoided that "accident" with his car and his then-wife wielding his 9-iron, he would have surpassed Jack in the number of majors won and would have become the universally-acclaimed GOAT.

[Tripping William]

So, is the GOAT the best career or the best golfer? By that I mean, if you took peak Tiger, peak Arnie, and peak Jack and put them all on a course at the same time who would win? I think there is no question at all that Tiger is the answer. For a sorta brief period of time, about half a decade, Tiger Woods played the game better than anyone before or since (as CDu notes above). I think most would agree with that. So, does that make him the GOAT or does the longer career excellence of Jack push him over the top?

-Jason "this is fun" Evans

One additional question with regard to this assessment: To what degree should we (must we) factor-in differences in golf club and golf ball technology between those three "eras" (Arnie, Jack, Tiger)?

[mph]

So, is the GOAT the best career or the best golfer? By that I mean, if you took peak Tiger, peak Arnie, and peak Jack and put them all on a course at the same time who would win? I think there is no question at all that Tiger is the answer. For a sorta brief period of time, about half a decade, Tiger Woods played the game better than anyone before or since (as CDu notes above). I think most would agree with that. So, does that make him the GOAT or does the longer career excellence of Jack push him over the top?

-Jason "this is fun" Evans

Granted, Tiger's peak run was more impressive than Jack's, but it's not at all clear to me that peak Tiger beats peak Jack in match play. Tiger had a huge psychological advantage over most of his contemporaries. Many of them expected to lose during Tiger's most dominant stretch. I believe Jack nullifies that advantage. Also, to the point made above, Jack's contemporaries included 5 players with 5 or more majors - Player (9), Watson (8), Palmer (7), Trevino (6), and Seve (5). Michelson (5) is the only Tiger contemporary with 5 or more majors. So while I believe that Tiger faced a deeper talent pool from top to bottom, Jack had to regularly beat legends in their own right.

It's also worth noting that 10 of Jack's 19 2nd place finishes were to golfers on the above list. The list that beat Tiger is much less impressive (Rich Beem, Zach Johnson, Ye Yang, etc.).

One more crazy statistic, but not directly relevant to the match play debate. Jack finished in the top 3 48 times. Wrap your mind around that statistic. He had 12 years worth of top-3 finishes in majors! Crazy!

(Edit: I should have said "head-to-head" instead of match play)

[dudog84]

So, is the GOAT the best career or the best golfer? By that I mean, if you took peak Tiger, peak Arnie, and peak Jack and put them all on a course at the same time who would win? I think there is no question at all that Tiger is the answer. For a sorta brief period of time, about half a decade, Tiger Woods played the game better than anyone before or since (as CDu notes above). I think most would agree with that. So, does that make him the GOAT or does the longer career excellence of Jack push him over the top?

-Jason "this is fun" Evans

Sorry Jason, I guess I'm not in the most. I immediately thought of equipment and competition, which has already been pointed out by quicker posters. And to add a little more to mph's excellent research, 2 of Phil's majors were after Tiger blew up. And another came during one of Tiger's infamous swing changes. Tiger had Phil's number.

I will agree with you that this is fun. :)

[mr. synellinden]

So, is the GOAT the best career or the best golfer? By that I mean, if you took peak Tiger, peak Arnie, and peak Jack and put them all on a course at the same time who would win? I think there is no question at all that Tiger is the answer. For a sorta brief period of time, about half a decade, Tiger Woods played the game better than anyone before or since (as CDu notes above). I think most would agree with that. So, does that make him the GOAT or does the longer career excellence of Jack push him over the top?

-Jason "this is fun" Evans

The baseball version of this is the Sandy Koufax question. Koufax had arguably the most dominant 5 year stretch any pitcher has ever had, but didn't have the longevity that, say, a Maddux had. Does that make him the best pitcher of all time or just the pitcher whose ceiling was highest? Are those different things?

My view is that Jack is the best of all time. He won the most majors. And had the longest stretch of dominance. Tiger may have dominated for a stretch in a way that Jack never did - e.g., the way he won The Masters in 97, the US Open in 2000 and winning 7 out of 11 majors. So like Koufax his ceiling may have been the highest. But I think the competitive landscape is relevant here. The stat posted above about Nicklaus finishing in the top 3 of majors 48 times is astounding, particularly considering the number of greats he was competing against - Palmer, Player, Trevino, Miller, Seve, Watson. I don't think Tiger has had the same caliber of rivals.

[PackMan97]

One additional question with regard to this assessment: To what degree should we (must we) factor-in differences in golf club and golf ball technology between those three "eras" (Arnie, Jack, Tiger)?

I don't think technology really factors into the discussion that much. Everyone played with the same technology. Now, if we were comparing who was the longest driver, or most accurate putter than the differences in technology certainly come into play.

The only way I see technology affecthing things as if a player were directly limited by the tools of the time. For example, was John Daly one dimensional enough (long-john) that if you gave him a driver that was used in the '60s would his advantage in driving distance been taken away made him just another average pro?

I certainly think players like Arnie, Jack and Tiger had such command of the game that they would be the best player of their era regardless of the tools.

[Jeffrey]

So, is the GOAT the best career or the best golfer? By that I mean, if you took peak Tiger, peak Arnie, and peak Jack and put them all on a course at the same time who would win? I think there is no question at all that Tiger is the answer.

Over the next 8 NBA seasons, peak Wilt Chamberlain would not average more than 30 PPG and 20 RPG all 8 consecutive seasons. Does that diminish Wilt's accomplishments?

[Jeffrey]

I don't think technology really factors into the discussion that much.

Did we see peak Jack play with today's technology? Do we truly know how good peak Jack would have played today?

IMO, you should not say, with certainty, Tiger would beat Jack, since you do not know how Jack would have performed with today's technology.

[PackMan97]

Did we see peak Jack play with today's technology? Do we truly know how good peak Jack would have played today?

IMO, you should not say, with certainty, Tiger would beat Jack, since you do not know how Jack would have performed with today's technology.

What I was trying to say is everyone during Jack's time played with the same technology and everyone during Tiger's time played with the same technology. I do not think that any of the players that we are discussing for GOAT were handicapped or enhanced by the technology of their era when compared to their peers at the time. Arnie, Jack and Tiger were masters of the entire game as it was played during their time.

Certainly technology makes direct comparissons across eras difficult. I would never argue otherwise.

[BD80]

So, is the GOAT the best career or the best golfer? By that I mean, if you took peak Tiger, peak Arnie, and peak Jack and put them all on a course at the same time who would win? I think there is no question at all that Tiger is the answer. For a sorta brief period of time, about half a decade, Tiger Woods played the game better than anyone before or since (as CDu notes above). I think most would agree with that. So, does that make him the GOAT or does the longer career excellence of Jack push him over the top?

-Jason "this is fun" Evans

I don't agree.

One Tiger would never have been able to get away with his swing with older equipment. The sweet spot on drivers was miniscule, Tiger would never have hit a fairway.

Two, Tiger never faced competition like Jack or Arnie and their ilk. They were killers. Lee Trevino hit balls with a Dr. Pepper bottle and beat scratch golfers. Tiger was a front runner that buried the competition by moving day. Don't think he would run away in a threesome with peak Jack and Arnie.

[OldPhiKap]

So, is the GOAT the best career or the best golfer? By that I mean, if you took peak Tiger, peak Arnie, and peak Jack and put them all on a course at the same time who would win? I think there is no question at all that Tiger is the answer.

Not sure of that. Peak Tiger also had much better technology at his disposal than peak Jack or Arnie.

Tiger was able to get out front and essentially scare off the competition -- they were beat before they teed off. Would Jack have folded to that pressure, given his history of coming from behind?

Don't know the answer, but I could make a good case that prime Jack was up to the task.


(Edit to add: should have read the second page before making this point -- already covered it seems)

[OldPhiKap]

I don't think technology really factors into the discussion that much. Everyone played with the same technology. Now, if we were comparing who was the longest driver, or most accurate putter than the differences in technology certainly come into play.



Yeah, but.

Look at the Masters, which is the only major always played at the same golf course. Gene Sarazan famously made eagle on 13 with a three wood shot from the top of the hill. Players today hit driver, eight/nine iron. Jack had an incredible short game. What if he was firing at pins with a wedge or short iron instead of a three iron? One could argue that his dominance would have been even greater because it would have played to one of his most impressive skills.

[Tripping William]

Yeah, but.

Look at the Masters, which is the only major always played at the same golf course. Gene Sarazan famously made double eagle on 15 with a four wood shot from the top of the hill. Players today hit driver, eight/nine iron. Jack had an incredible short game. What if he was firing at pins with a wedge or short iron instead of a three iron? One could argue that his dominance would have been even greater because it would have played to one of his most impressive skills.

FIFY (http://www.golfchannel.com/news/martin-davis/sarazens-double-eagle-put-masters-map/)

Question (and further to your point): These eight/nine irons? These are coming *after* they lengthened ANGC to "Tiger-proof" it, right? :o

[PackMan97]

Yeah, but.

Look at the Masters, which is the only major always played at the same golf course. Gene Sarazan famously made eagle on 13 with a three wood shot from the top of the hill. Players today hit driver, eight/nine iron. Jack had an incredible short game. What if he was firing at pins with a wedge or short iron instead of a three iron? One could argue that his dominance would have been even greater because it would have played to one of his most impressive skills.

How far was the "short" game then versus now? Today players can hit an 8-iron up to 170 yards. Besides, wasn't Jack one of the longer hitters back in his prime? That already gave him a chance to use his short game more than other players.

Courses definitely played differently back in the day, but as we've seen a lot of courses have changed their layouts and tee boxes to accomodate the "longer" game of today, so while it's a fun discussion it really is apples to oranges.

Do players actually hit more short shots today? or are they hitting greens from further away? I have no idea and don't follow golf that closely. :)

[OldPhiKap]

FIFY (http://www.golfchannel.com/news/martin-davis/sarazens-double-eagle-put-masters-map/)

Question (and further to your point): These eight/nine irons? These are coming *after* they lengthened ANGC to "Tiger-proof" it, right? :o

Thanks, that's what happens when I jump in on a quick break . . . .

[killerleft]

So, is the GOAT the best career or the best golfer? By that I mean, if you took peak Tiger, peak Arnie, and peak Jack and put them all on a course at the same time who would win? I think there is no question at all that Tiger is the answer. For a sorta brief period of time, about half a decade, Tiger Woods played the game better than anyone before or since (as CDu notes above). I think most would agree with that. So, does that make him the GOAT or does the longer career excellence of Jack push him over the top?

-Jason "this is fun" Evans

With each at his peak, I think those three would have some hellacious fights. The testosterone battle would be fierce. Arnie and Tiger would probably wear each other out trying to outdo the other, and Jack might just waltz in and take the prize. Add in Gary Player in his prime, and watch out!

If Tiger has to use a persimmon driver, and 60s irons, what then?;)

[Indoor66]

With persimmon and 60's irons, Tiger would have been elite in the 60's. Tiger had the skills AND the mind to compete. Who was best is always arguable.

[rasputin]

With persimmon and 60's irons, Tiger would have been elite in the 60's. Tiger had the skills AND the mind to compete. Who was best is always arguable.

I think there is validity to the earlier poster's comment that Tiger's aggressive swing would result in a lot of spraying with old-style clubs, and arguably he wouldn't have been able to develop the same playing style in the old days.

[Indoor66]

I think there is validity to the earlier poster's comment that Tiger's aggressive swing would result in a lot of spraying with old-style clubs, and arguably he wouldn't have been able to develop the same playing style in the old days.

And I would contend that we are discussing all of them being products of the same era so Tiger would have had a swing suited to his equipment.

[dudog84]

And I would contend that we are discussing all of them being products of the same era so Tiger would have had a swing suited to his equipment.

Which swing? Hasn't he had about 3 in his own era?

[Indoor66]

Which swing? Hasn't he had about 3 in his own era?

A straw man. All pros work on their swings.

[CDu]

And I would contend that we are discussing all of them being products of the same era so Tiger would have had a swing suited to his equipment.

I agree. No reason to assume that Tiger wouldn't have been a great golfer back then (well, ignoring the racial issues limiting minorities in golf back then, of course). Just like there is no reason to assume Nicklaus wouldn't be great today. They are both products of the era in which they played. But I firmly believe that their talent would translate to any era.

As for their competition, I think that is bogus. For one thing, Nicklaus was about a decade behind Palmer and Player, and about a decade before Watson. So while they certainly faced each other, Nicklaus' prime fell squarely after Palmer was in decline. And by the time Watson was relevant, Nicklaus was mostly done winning majors. For another thing, it is a disservice to some Hall of Fame caliber of golfers like Els, Singh, Mickelson, Harrington, Price, Faldo, etc. Tiger's dominance from 1999-2002, winning 7 of 11 majors, meant those guys didn't add to their Hall-of-Fame win totals.

Both guys had very capable rivals. Both guys bested those rivals in majors more than anyone else. Tiger had the most dominant stretch of golf ever, and the Sandy Koufax reference seems apt. Nicklaus gets the overall edge to me due to his longevity and remaining relevant for about 5-10 years longer (which is why he has the 4 more major wins).

[mph]

I agree. No reason to assume that Tiger wouldn't have been a great golfer back then (well, ignoring the racial issues limiting minorities in golf back then, of course). Just like there is no reason to assume Nicklaus wouldn't be great today. They are both products of the era in which they played. But I firmly believe that their talent would translate to any era.

As for their competition, I think that is bogus. For one thing, Nicklaus was about a decade behind Palmer and Player, and about a decade before Watson. So while they certainly faced each other, Nicklaus' prime fell squarely after Palmer was in decline. And by the time Watson was relevant, Nicklaus was mostly done winning majors. For another thing, it is a disservice to some Hall of Fame caliber of golfers like Els, Singh, Mickelson, Harrington, Price, Faldo, etc. Tiger's dominance from 1999-2002, winning 7 of 11 majors, meant those guys didn't add to their Hall-of-Fame win totals.

Both guys had very capable rivals. Both guys bested those rivals in majors more than anyone else. Tiger had the most dominant stretch of golf ever, and the Sandy Koufax reference seems apt. Nicklaus gets the overall edge to me due to his longevity and remaining relevant for about 5-10 years longer (which is why he has the 4 more major wins).

Sure Jack's peak and Palmer and Watson's peaks didn't perfectly align but they were close enough that I don't think it makes much of a difference. Jack won his first major in '62. Palmer won 3 of his 7 majors in '62 or after and he finished 2nd in 3 PGA Championships post '62. Palmer was still very good when Jack won his first 3 majors. Every one of Watson's 8 majors falls between Jacks's first and last major, even if you exclude the '86 masters. Jack won his 5 of his last 6 majors while Watson was playing championship golf.

I'm not sure why you think Player and Jack peaked at different times. 7 of Player's 9 majors came after Jack's rise, many in the late 60s and early 70s.

[elvis14]

Interesting discussion. I'm clearly in the camp that Jack was the greatest. Woods was good but the arguments that show how top heavy the field was when Jack was playing in addition to Jack's 2nd and 3rd place finishes in majors, his wins on the senior tour, etc. just give leave me believing that Jack was better. Jack had a better career and his peak was just as good at Woods.

The one bad thing about Tiger being gone is how ESPN refuses to cover golf if he's not playing.

[killerleft]

At age 58, the Golden Bear finally had his swing speed tested. He clocked in at 118 mph. At 38, Tiger's average swing speed was 115. Don't know if the 118 was Jack's best of the day or his average that day, but it would seem he could have kept up with Tiger - at least!

http://www.golfdigest.com/story/jack-nicklaus-surpsingly-fast-swing-speed

Jack's course management, and the ability to numb a course (and the rest of the field) into submission would, I think, have forced Woods to play more conservatively than he would have been comfortable doing.

It's fun to imagine what would happen if the two played at the acme of their respective careers. Unless Mr. Woods pulls off a miracle and returns to top form, though, Mr. Nicklaus will have the numbers to kick Tiger's butt and claim the title as the world's best - until the next Goliath comes along.

[Devil2]

I (pretty much) agree with your succinct analysis. No doubt in my mind that, if Tiger had stayed healthy and had avoided that "accident" with his car and his then-wife wielding his 9-iron, he would have surpassed Jack in the number of majors won and would have become the universally-acclaimed GOAT.

But he didn't

[dudog84]

A straw man. All pros work on their swings.

Clearly you don't know what a straw man or joke (which that was) is.

[arnie]

With persimmon and 60's irons, Tiger would have been elite in the 60's. Tiger had the skills AND the mind to compete. Who was best is always arguable.

I'll take peak Tiger over peak Fat Jack any day of the week. (Reference Arnie's quote after Jack beat him in 62 Open playoff). Course I'm not neutral on this subject, but Jack's incredibly slow play created massive logjams on courses in the late 60's and early 70s. All the amateurs thought lying on the greens to lineup puts and spending Sergio minutes in addressing the ball would make them better players. Loved watching Julius Boros and Lee Trevino - they played great golf and did it quickly.

[YmoBeThere]

Well, there is this:

https://www.yahoo.com/sports/news/tiger-woods-arrested-early-monday-dui-charges-florida-154440049.html

[camion]

Well, there is this:

https://www.yahoo.com/sports/news/tiger-woods-arrested-early-monday-dui-charges-florida-154440049.html

I'll take this as an indication his back is feeling better.

[OldPhiKap]

Hope it is not a mix of pain mess and alcohol. He looks pretty out of it.

[accfanfrom1970]

I'll never understand the reluctance to pay for a ride.
Even my kids know to call uber if they've been
drinking. How someone of means ends up like this?

[davekay1971]

I'll never understand the reluctance to pay for a ride.
Even my kids know to call uber if they've been
drinking. How someone of means ends up like this?

Pride; which begets vanity (the service of which forbids a very public figure calling for an Uber ride), and arrogance (the service of which allows him to tell himself that he can get himself home all right). The mother of all sins...and most stupid decisions.

[ncexnyc]

Is this a golf thread or a baseball HoF thread? I see many of the same arguements being made here that we tend to see in the HoF debates. Equipment, era, rivals, etc. A few have even let their displeasure of Tiger's extraciricular activities shape their opinion, which could be compared to PED usage or rumored PED usage.

At the end of the day we'll never agree, but it's a fun way to kill some time.

[OldPhiKap]

I'll never understand the reluctance to pay for a ride.
Even my kids know to call uber if they've been
drinking. How someone of means ends up like this?

FWIW, Tiger says that alcohol was not involved -- it was an adverse reaction to medicine:

http://www.espn.com/golf/story/_/id/19490176/tiger-woods-arrested-dui-florida

Edit to add: several media outlets have assumed that "prescription" meds means pain killers. We'll find out I guess. But IF the label says that you shouldn't operate heavy machinery, well . . . .

[swood1000]

FWIW, Tiger says that alcohol was not involved -- it was an adverse reaction to medicine:

http://www.espn.com/golf/story/_/id/19490176/tiger-woods-arrested-dui-florida

Edit to add: several media outlets have assumed that "prescription" meds means pain killers. We'll find out I guess. But IF the label says that you shouldn't operate heavy machinery, well . . . .
If he did refuse to take a Breathalyzer test, as some sources are reporting (http://nypost.com/2017/05/29/tiger-woods-arrested-for-dui-in-florida/), it's going to be a tough sell.

[OldPhiKap]

If he did refuse to take a Breathalyzer test, as some sources are reporting (http://nypost.com/2017/05/29/tiger-woods-arrested-for-dui-in-florida/), it's going to be a tough sell.

Yup. And if he's driving on powerful pain meds, that's verboten anyway (typically).

I hope he gets his personal life together, he was (and still can be) an inspiration to many.

[swood1000]

Yup. And if he's driving on powerful pain meds, that's verboten anyway (typically).

But he probably wouldn't lose as many endorsements from driving on pain meds as he would from drunk driving. That mug shot alone is going to do a number on his image of success and ability to inspire anyone, and will likely be very costly. But Forbes listed his net worth at $740 million in 2016 so I think he'll probably squeak by.

[duke79]

But he probably wouldn't lose as many endorsements from driving on pain meds as he would from drunk driving. That mug shot alone is going to do a number on his image of success and ability to inspire anyone, and will likely be very costly. But Forbes listed his net worth at $740 million in 2016 so I think he'll probably squeak by.

Yea, I know it's hard to feel sorry for someone who has made hundreds and hundreds of millions of dollars flying around the world on a private jet playing golf for a living BUT......I almost feel sorry for Tiger at this point in his life. No doubt there has been a steep downward trajectory in his (personal, at least) life since that fateful incident with the nine-iron outside his Florida home and his injuries have, more or less, ended his golf career. Some of his problems you can blame on Tiger's bad decisions (cheating on his wife, etc.) and other problems (the injuries) are beyond his control.

[swood1000]

Yea, I know it's hard to feel sorry for someone who has made hundreds and hundreds of millions of dollars flying around the world on a private jet playing golf for a living BUT...I almost feel sorry for Tiger at this point in his life. No doubt there has been a steep downward trajectory in his (personal, at least) life since that fateful incident with the nine-iron outside his Florida home and his injuries have, more or less, ended his golf career. Some of his problems you can blame on Tiger's bad decisions (cheating on his wife, etc.) and other problems (the injuries) are beyond his control.
It's been hard for me to feel sorry for him since I learned about all his cheating on his wife. Until fairly recently such a person would have been held in disgrace by the general public. I guess that these days it's all about individual freedom.

[CDu]

It's been hard for me to feel sorry for him since I learned about all his cheating on his wife. Until fairly recently such a person would have been held in disgrace by the general public. I guess that these days it's all about individual freedom.

Until fairly recently, we just would never have heard about the affairs. And/or depending on the person, the media wouldn't have buried him with it (see JFK).

Sadly, affairs amongst big stars have been going on for forever. We just learn a lot more about these guys now.

Not saying that Woods is a likeable guy, nor condoning what he did. Just that he's not alone in doing it.

[rthomas]

Woods blew a 0.00 in a breath test for alcohol.

http://www.espn.com/golf/story/_/id/19496396/tiger-woods-found-asleep-car-arrest-dui-charge

[OldPhiKap]

Woods blew a 0.00 in a breath test for alcohol.

http://www.espn.com/golf/story/_/id/19496396/tiger-woods-found-asleep-car-arrest-dui-charge

And was apparently found asleep behind the wheel. Car parked on side of road, engine running, lights on.

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

Woods blew a 0.00 in a breath test for alcohol.

http://www.espn.com/golf/story/_/id/19496396/tiger-woods-found-asleep-car-arrest-dui-charge

Well, his story holds up. I suspect he doesn't get buried for this. I am sure Stephen A. will spend the better part of this day atoning for his reactionary hot take about what a mess Tiger is.

[swood1000]

Until fairly recently, we just would never have heard about the affairs. And/or depending on the person, the media wouldn't have buried him with it (see JFK).

Sadly, affairs amongst big stars have been going on for forever. We just learn a lot more about these guys now.

Not saying that Woods is a likeable guy, nor condoning what he did. Just that he's not alone in doing it.

Right, and I'm not setting myself up as holier than anyone. Just something about his affairs rubbed me the wrong way. As recently as the 60s the mere fact that Rockefeller was divorced and married a divorcée was enough to cost him the Republican nomination (https://www.nytimes.com/2015/05/20/nyregion/happy-rockefeller-whose-marriage-to-governor-scandalized-voters-dies-at-88.html?_r=0).

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

Right, and I'm not setting myself up as holier than anyone. Just something about his affairs rubbed me the wrong way. As recently as the 60s the mere fact that Rockefeller was divorced and married a divorcée was enough to cost him the Republican nomination (https://www.nytimes.com/2015/05/20/nyregion/happy-rockefeller-whose-marriage-to-governor-scandalized-voters-dies-at-88.html?_r=0).

Yeah, well, that ship has clearly sailed...

[fidel]

I wasn't expecting a Rockefeller reference in this thread. Kennedy, maybe.

[OldPhiKap]

I wasn't expecting a Rockefeller reference in this thread. Kennedy, maybe.

Just don't bring up Woodrow Wilson, or this thread will get locked.

[rasputin]

Yeah, well, that ship has clearly sailed...

And we sail with the Pilot.

Some of us old-timers also remember when that whole divorce thing was a potential stumbling block to the political career of one Ronald Reagan.

(Redacted political content)

[DUKIECB]

It's being reported now that his car had fresh damage and the tires were flat. Doesn't sound like he just got sleepy and pulled over. Sounds like he was almost unconscious and behind the wheel of an automobile.

[DUKIECB]

http://www.espn.com/golf/story/_/id/19498988/tiger-woods-arrested-tiger-woods-lost-every-literal-figurative-way

Sorry for the double post but I thought this was a good article that pretty much sums up the way I feel about the whole thing. Just sad.

[gus]

Right, and I'm not setting myself up as holier than anyone. Just something about his affairs rubbed me the wrong way. As recently as the 60s the mere fact that Rockefeller was divorced and married a divorcée was enough to cost him the Republican nomination (https://www.nytimes.com/2015/05/20/nyregion/happy-rockefeller-whose-marriage-to-governor-scandalized-voters-dies-at-88.html?_r=0).

It's far easier to find examples throughout history of politicians and celebrities who've had affairs and not suffered for it, then it is to find ones who were punished.

I imagine there are many other reasons Rockefeller failed to win the republican nomination in the 4 times he tried (including once that predated his marriage to Happy), but even ignoring that... what angered social conservatives wasn't his infidelity, but hers (he was a "wife-stealer"), and the fact they had the audacity to divorce and re-marry. Had he had the common sense to simply cheat on his wife and not marry another woman, he'd have been fine.

Rockefeller also became veep -- so he couldn't have fallen that far out of favor.

I guess Gary Hart is a better example. But hubris might have been a contributing factor: "Follow me around. I don't care. I'm serious."

[Reilly]

Just don't bring up Woodrow Wilson ...

Wilson's Southern sympathizing led him to prefer mustard-based sauce, but as an internationalist, he eschewed PB&J.

[Reilly]

Nelson Rockefeller was elected governor of NY 4x and Tiger Woods won The Masters 4x -- coincidence?

[Atlanta Duke]

Well, his story holds up. I suspect he doesn't get buried for this. I am sure Stephen A. will spend the better part of this day atoning for his reactionary hot take about what a mess Tiger is.

Not certain if DWI from abusing painkillers while running into something while driving (2 flats and body damage to the vehicle) is going to make it much better than DWI on alcohol in terms of public sympathy

With his history of back pain and other surgeries going back for years possibly has been downing painkillers for some time to the point it could lead to dependency

[OldPhiKap]

Nelson Rockefeller was elected governor of NY 4x and Tiger Woods won The Masters 4x -- coincidence?

Nelson Rockefeller's secretary's name was Woods. Tiger Woods' secretary's name was Rockefeller.

[JasonEvans]

Nelson Rockefeller's secretary's name was Woods. Tiger Woods' secretary's name was Rockefeller.

Tiger Alphonso Woods and Nelson J. Rockefeller have the same number of letters in their names too.

[Indoor66]

Tiger Alphonso Woods and Nelson J. Rockefeller have the same number of letters in their names too.

Both walk upright (or walked), as well.

[aimo]

Not certain if DWI from abusing painkillers while running into something while driving (2 flats and body damage to the vehicle) is going to make it much better than DWI on alcohol in terms of public sympathy

With his history of back pain and other surgeries going back for years possibly has been downing painkillers for some time to the point it could lead to dependency

This.

All I know is I am tired of seeing that mug shot.

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

Not certain if DWI from abusing painkillers while running into something while driving (2 flats and body damage to the vehicle) is going to make it much better than DWI on alcohol in terms of public sympathy

With his history of back pain and other surgeries going back for years possibly has been downing painkillers for some time to the point it could lead to dependency

Well, I give more sympathy in that pain meds and their interactions are far easier to confuse/misread/misjudge than getting tanked on beers.

If you have 8 beers, you know you shouldn't drive. If you either make is mistake with your medication or misunderstand how they interact with one another, you might not realize that you are incapable of driving until you are asleep on the side of the road.

Granted, your driving is inhibited the same either way, but I will give the benefit of the doubt to someone with Tiger's health history far moreso than someone just out having a good time who decides not to call his driver.

[OldPhiKap]

Tiger Alphonso Woods and Nelson J. Rockefeller have the same number of letters in their names too.

So does this mean that Tiger should avoid Dallas, or the theater?


(What -- too soon?)

[Reilly]

I wonder if Megan Marshack ever worked at a Perkins?

[Reddevil]

So does this mean that Tiger should avoid Dallas, or the theater?


(What -- too soon?)

Was he driving a Lincoln?

[swood1000]

Tiger Alphonso Woods and Nelson J. Rockefeller have the same number of letters in their names too.
Same number as Woodrow Elmoe Wilson! This is getting scary.

[rthomas]

Same number as Woodrow Elmoe Wilson! This is getting scary.

And Richard Milhous Nixo

[weezie]

Eldrick Tont Woods.
Where did Alphonso come from?

[JasonEvans]

Eldrick Tont Woods.
Where did Alphonso come from?

It was a joke. I needed a middle name long enough to make the match with Rockefeller work.

His real middle name is Tont? Really? That's pretty darn random. Then again, Eldrick ain't exactly a mainstream first name.

[fidel]

Tiger Alphonso Woods and Nelson J. Rockefeller have the same number of letters in their names too.

Rockefeller has 5 Woods named after him. Tiger was hit by a 5 wood.

[Tripping William]

Rockefeller has 5 Woods named after him. Tiger was hit by a 5 wood.

Where does Seventh Woods fit into all of this?

[mph]

Dash cam video released here (http://m.tmz.com/#article/2017/05/31/tiger-woods-dui-arrest-dash-cam-video/). Hard to watch without feeling sorry for the guy, but someone could have been killed. He had no business behind the wheel.

[duketaylor]

If he was driving on Jupiter Island, where his house is, speed limit is like 25 or 35, max and not gonna be busy at 3 a.m., if hardly ever. I'm not saying that makes any of this ok, just that the odds of hurting someone or worse is greatly diminished. Judge won't care and shouldn't. I've heard 2 tires were flat and there was damage to multiple sides of the vehicle, so that's really bad. Not sure why he drove or anybody else let him drive.

I've been on Jupiter maybe twice, maybe the swankiest place I've ever been. Way above my pay grade, for sure. I was the fish outta water that week. Enjoyed it, none the less. Thanks to my hosts!!:cool:

[CrazyNotCrazie]

Dash cam video released here (http://m.tmz.com/#article/2017/05/31/tiger-woods-dui-arrest-dash-cam-video/). Hard to watch without feeling sorry for the guy, but someone could have been killed. He had no business behind the wheel.

I don't feel bad for anyone driving impaired. Regardless of the location and time of day. There is no excuse. There is nowhere you have to go that is so important that you have to put other people at risk. Particularly not in the age of Uber, for a multi-millionaire who can certainly afford it.

[OldPhiKap]

If (and I mean if) you are taking prescription pain killers, you can't drive, really no if, and, or but to it.

The issue for Tiger is not the penalty that comes from this, which is relatively light. It is whether he gets his life together or not.

I hope and pray that he gets his life together. Whether golf follows is secondary.

[mph]

I don't feel bad for anyone driving impaired. Regardless of the location and time of day. There is no excuse. There is nowhere you have to go that is so important that you have to put other people at risk. Particularly not in the age of Uber, for a multi-millionaire who can certainly afford it.

Sympathy and accountability aren't mutually exclusive. Yes, there's no excuse for driving impaired and he should face the legal consequences. Yes, I feel sympathy for him when I see how far he's fallen. I hope he gets the help he needs.

[aimo]

If he was driving on Jupiter Island, where his house is, speed limit is like 25 or 35, max

Yes, but how many people under the influence of anything, especially those who don't seem to realize where they are, OBEY the speed limits?

[Reilly]

If he was driving on Jupiter Island ...

The incident report places the scene at 2999 Military Trail, Jupiter, which is the mainland.

[Jeffrey]

Yes, I feel sympathy for him when I see how far he's fallen.

Taking into account "how far he's fallen", at his current level, Tiger Woods will make at least $25 million over the next 12 months and have a net worth in excess of $700 million. Tiger will end up paying a fine and continue sleeping in his $60 million mansion (or, car of choice). Millions of Americans have serious back problems and millions battle various addictions (which Tiger might not even have). What is Tiger's specific misfortune which causes you to fell sympathy for him?

I'm not trying to give you a hard time. I truly believe there are millions, if not billions, of humans more worthy and in need of sympathy.

[jacone21]

I'm not trying to give you a hard time. I truly believe there are millions, if not billions, of humans more worthy and in need of sympathy.

The beautiful thing about human compassion is that you can feel sympathy for all of them.

[Mal]

Taking into account "how far he's fallen", at his current level, Tiger Woods will make at least $25 million over the next 12 months and have a net worth in excess of $700 million. Tiger will end up paying a fine and continue sleeping in his $60 million mansion (or, car of choice). Millions of Americans have serious back problems and millions battle various addictions (which Tiger might not even have). What is Tiger's specific misfortune which causes you to fell sympathy for him?

I'm not trying to give you a hard time. I truly believe there are millions, if not billions, of humans more worthy and in need of sympathy.

Is there a limit on our capacity for sympathy? Does feeling sympathy for one individual preclude us from feeling (even more) sympathy for others?

Tiger always struck me as something less than a fully realized, whole person, in large part because of his singular focus on dominating golf in a way no one ever had from a very early age. As with many people of genius or incredible talent, his gifts, while advancing him to amazing professional heights, may have held him back in other aspects of his life. He clearly cared deeply for his parents, but didn't seem to have any close personal friends, didn't exhibit much of what seemed like an authentic personality, comfortable in his own skin, and then it eventually came out that he had been carrying on dalliances with dozens of women while married. After the 9 iron to his car and the ensuing firestorm of bad press, his way of coping with the mess he'd made of his life was to get back on the golf course as quickly as he possibly could, rather than disappearing to take stock of it all. And now this comes along.

He had the game and talent and megawatt competitive drive to stack up 14 majors and looked for all the world as though he could pass Jack Nicklaus in his sleep and go down as the undisputed greatest player golf had ever seen. Instead, he'll probably never compete at a high level again, his health is a shambles, his emotional health appears to be somewhere beyond a shambles, and his reputation is shot for good. That it's all been self-induced based on some character traits, rather than just bad luck, doesn't make it any less sad. It just makes it a different kind of sad. It's a Greek tragedy sort of sad.

I don't think, for all of his wealth and comfort and accomplishments, that Tiger Woods is a happy person. Does that alone not justify some feeling of sympathy? I feel sorry for anyone who can't be happy in this world, whatever the reason. No one's saying we should be starting a gofundme for Tiger, or organizing a group to go give him a thousand hugs in a day to cheer him up.

[DUKIECB]

Taking into account "how far he's fallen", at his current level, Tiger Woods will make at least $25 million over the next 12 months and have a net worth in excess of $700 million. Tiger will end up paying a fine and continue sleeping in his $60 million mansion (or, car of choice). Millions of Americans have serious back problems and millions battle various addictions (which Tiger might not even have). What is Tiger's specific misfortune which causes you to fell sympathy for him?

I'm not trying to give you a hard time. I truly believe there are millions, if not billions, of humans more worthy and in need of sympathy.

I agree that there are millions of people in the world who you could make the case that they are more deserving of sympathy than Tiger Woods is. However, just because the guy has money doesn't mean he doesn't have problems. The fact is he has fallen, a very long way mind you, and it is sad to see any human being in the kind of shape he's in right now. I echo the sentiment of others who wish him well and hope he gets his life together.

[Indoor66]

Is there a limit on our capacity for sympathy? Does feeling sympathy for one individual preclude us from feeling (even more) sympathy for others?

Tiger always struck me as something less than a fully realized, whole person, in large part because of his singular focus on dominating golf in a way no one ever had from a very early age. As with many people of genius or incredible talent, his gifts, while advancing him to amazing professional heights, may have held him back in other aspects of his life. He clearly cared deeply for his parents, but didn't seem to have any close personal friends, didn't exhibit much of what seemed like an authentic personality, comfortable in his own skin, and then it eventually came out that he had been carrying on dalliances with dozens of women while married. After the 9 iron to his car and the ensuing firestorm of bad press, his way of coping with the mess he'd made of his life was to get back on the golf course as quickly as he possibly could, rather than disappearing to take stock of it all. And now this comes along.

He had the game and talent and megawatt competitive drive to stack up 14 majors and looked for all the world as though he could pass Jack Nicklaus in his sleep and go down as the undisputed greatest player golf had ever seen. Instead, he'll probably never compete at a high level again, his health is a shambles, his emotional health appears to be somewhere beyond a shambles, and his reputation is shot for good. That it's all been self-induced based on some character traits, rather than just bad luck, doesn't make it any less sad. It just makes it a different kind of sad. It's a Greek tragedy sort of sad.

I don't think, for all of his wealth and comfort and accomplishments, that Tiger Woods is a happy person. Does that alone not justify some feeling of sympathy? I feel sorry for anyone who can't be happy in this world, whatever the reason. No one's saying we should be starting a gofundme for Tiger, or organizing a group to go give him a thousand hugs in a day to cheer him up.

Nicely said, Mal. Most religions that I am aware of teach concern for others over envy of others. I have always seen a failure to feel sympathy and compassion for all - even those with more than me, to be an expression of envy and not very admirable.

[Jeffrey]

I don't think, for all of his wealth and comfort and accomplishments, that Tiger Woods is a happy person. Does that alone not justify some feeling of sympathy? I feel sorry for anyone who can't be happy in this world, whatever the reason.

How have you concluded Tiger Woods is not a happy person? I'm certainly not able to judge Tiger's overall happiness.

[Jeffrey]

I have always seen a failure to feel sympathy and compassion for all - even those with more than me, to be an expression of envy and not very admirable.

I certainly do not envy Tiger. It's not a life I desire.

[rsvman]

The beautiful thing about human compassion is that you can feel sympathy for all of them.

I must spread some comments around........


Mal's post was good, too, but this one was perfect.

[swood1000]

Nicely said, Mal. Most religions that I am aware of teach concern for others over envy of others. I have always seen a failure to feel sympathy and compassion for all - even those with more than me, to be an expression of envy and not very admirable.
Is there nobody who does not deserve sympathy and compassion? Are compassion and envy the only two options?

[Jeffrey]

Is there nobody who does not deserve sympathy and compassion? Are compassion and envy the only two options?

No, I doubt anyone here has sufficient information, knowledge, and skill to determine Tiger's level of overall happiness. I also doubt anyone here has sufficient information, knowledge, and skill to determine whether Tiger was telling the truth about this incident. Tiger may have made an honest mistake with his prescription medication, not be suffering any addictions, and have solely made a very bad decision to drive while taking his prescription medication.

[Turk]

No, I doubt anyone here has sufficient information, knowledge, and skill to determine Tiger's level of overall happiness. I also doubt anyone here has sufficient information, knowledge, and skill to determine whether Tiger was telling the truth about this incident. Tiger may have made an honest mistake with his prescription medication, not be suffering any addictions, and have solely made a very bad decision to drive while taking his prescription medication.

Agreed. No one here has sufficient information, knowledge, and skill...

However, here's a piece from Wright Thompson from May 2016 that will certainly increase one's level of understanding, even if one does or does not agree with its conclusions or inferences. I think there is much truth to the hypothesis that Tiger lost his way when his dad passed, and things have been pretty much all downhill since...

http://www.espn.com/espn/feature/story/_/id/15278522/how-tiger-woods-life-unraveled-years-father-earl-woods-death

P.S. And how exactly did releasing the dashboard of Tiger's traffic stop advance the cause of justice? In what way does that contribute to society's greater good?

[Jeffrey]

And how exactly did releasing the dashboard of Tiger's traffic stop advance the cause of justice? In what way does that contribute to society's greater good?

Agreed, it does not. IMO, fame sucks! I certainly do not envy Tiger. It's not a life I desire.

[Indoor66]

Agreed, it does not. IMO, fame sucks! I certainly do not envy Tiger. It's not a life I desire.

But, But, the Public Right To Know!

[OldPhiKap]

Agreed, it does not. IMO, fame sucks! I certainly do not envy Tiger. It's not a life I desire.

"Everybody wants to be rich and famous. Rich and anonymous, that's where it's at."

-- Arlo Guthrie

[elvis14]

P.S. And how exactly did releasing the dashboard of Tiger's traffic stop advance the cause of justice? In what way does that contribute to society's greater good?

I was never a Tiger fan, always rooted against him (although he was the best of his time). But that was on a golf course. In real life, I hope he gets it together (if he needs to, I don't know). In real life, I'm rooting for him all the way (and I've never really liked the guy). I think both his $$ value and his stature as a successful minority (or a successful athlete in general) give him such great opportunities to positively effect the lives of others, especially younger people. It would be shame to waste that opportunity, IMHO (where the H was stolen by sagerouse).

As for Turk's comment about the dashboard video footage, I think that could have been kept private. Would have been better to only release it if the police came under inappropriate scrutiny.

[Jeffrey]

But, But, the Public Right To Know!

Well, then, J. Edgar, why don't we ever see the inside of your closet?

[cato]

And how exactly did releasing the dashboard of Tiger's traffic stop advance the cause of justice? In what way does that contribute to society's greater good?

I do not know Florida law on the subject, but the government may not have the right to withhold the video. Releasing this video may not contribute to society's greater good, per se, but a general requirement to record and make available video of police interactions with the public could.

[Jeffrey]

"Everybody wants to be rich and famous. Rich and anonymous, that's where it's at."

-- Arlo Guthrie

Spot on! We both, unfortunately, saw what fame did to Jerry. When I see fame, no matter how small, I run!

[Atlanta Duke]

I think there is much truth to the hypothesis that Tiger lost his way when his dad passed, and things have been pretty much all downhill since...

Arnold Palmer agreed with that hypothesis in an interview published in 2015

“After his father died, and without getting into what happened and why it happened, Tiger got into other things,” Arnold said. “He went away from the routine and the work ethic that was so natural for him. It’s happened before. It has something to do with the psychological effect of the game. If he doesn’t try to go back to where he was five or six years ago, he will get worse instead of better. Could he go back to where he was? He could. Do I think he will? No.”

http://www.golf.com/tour-and-news/arnold-palmer-unfiltered-men-green

[YmoBeThere]

Some would say a similar thing happened to Mike Tyson after Cus D'amato passed away.

[chriso]

Some would say a similar thing happened to Mike Tyson after Cus D'amato passed away.

Good point. I'm actually starting to get worried about Tiger. Hope he gets help.

[JasonEvans]

Some would say a similar thing happened to Mike Tyson after Cus D'amato passed away.

While the precipitous decline of their careers are similar, I don't think you can compare Cus' death to Earl Woods' death because Tyson was still on the rise as a boxer when Cus died while Tiger was already a great golfer, near his peak, when his father passed.

Cus died in 1985. It would be a year until Tyson won the world heavyweight title. Most would say that Tyson's peak came in 1988 when he knocked out previously undefeated Michael Spinks in 91 seconds. Tiger's peak was either 2000-01 (Tiger Slam) or 2005-06 (when he won 4 of 8 majors and came in 2nd, 4th, 3rd when he did not win). But, Earl died in 2006, right around the time of Tiger's peak. So, Tyson rose higher after his father/mentor died while Tiger's downfall began about 2 years after his father/mentor passed.

Anyway, I think the comparison isn't quite perfect, though there is little doubt that both Cus and Earl had huge influence on their "offspring" and would likely have been able to keep them focused and out of trouble had they not died.

I'll say this about Tiger and Tyson, they both went from "he could be the greatest ever" to baffling career struggles very quickly.

-Jason "the higher you rise, the further you fall... these two dudes were truly the Icarus of their sports" Evans

[OldPhiKap]

Tyson was always troubled; Cus was able to channel it.

Very different circumstances and causes for the aftermaths, IMO.

[YmoBeThere]

Tiger was the PGA Tour Player of the Year in 2013.

Kevin Rooney held Tyson together for quite some time. If my memory serves me correctly, Tyson he was trained by Rooney up to and including the Spinks fight.

Any analogy, when placed under enough light, will pale.

[sagegrouse]

Tiger Woods is one of the two or three best golfers who ever lived, based on championships and overall brilliance. His peak performance lasted 18 years.

Here is his record through 2013"


Year No. Wins Maj Pos.
1996 11 2 0 24
1997 21 4 1 1
1998 20 1 0 4
1999 21 8 1 1
2000 20 9 3 1
2001 19 5 1 1
2002 18 5 2 1
2003 18 5 0 2
2004 19 1 0 4
2005 21 6 2 1
2006 15 8 2 1
2007 16 7 1 1
2008 6 4 1 2
2009 17 6 0 1
2010 12 0 0 68
2011 9 0 0 128
2012 19 3 0 2
2013 16 5 0 1
298 79 14
He won 79 tournaments over 18 years. In his best ten years, Tiger won over 25 percent of the tournaments he entered. In 2006 he won over one-half of the tournaments. These are with fields of about 150 golfers. He won 14 majors over a 12-year period. The "Pos." stat is position on the money-winning list, on which he was #1 ten separate years (and #2 an additional three years).

So, the complaint is what, from purely a golf performance standpoint? He was done at age 37? Tiger's situation seems sad now, but in ten-to-twenty years his career will be seen as the most amazing in golf history. I expect his drive to win subsided, but I also expect that his physical ailments have been a serious problem at the end of his career.

By the way, I read recently a critique of Paul McCartney, in that he was only productive for about ten years and wrote few memorable songs after the mid-70's. It was described as a waste of talent. Can we be thankful for what we got? Same with Tiger.

[YmoBeThere]

...he was only productive for about ten years and wrote few memorable... It was described as a waste of talent.

In the places where people talk when they don't want to be heard, similar things have been said about my posts.

Though I may be confusing waste of talent with no talent.

[Indoor66]

Tiger Woods is one of the two or three best golfers who ever lived, based on championships and overall brilliance. His peak performance lasted 18 years.

Here is his record through 2013"


Year No. Wins Maj Pos.
1996 11 2 0 24
1997 21 4 1 1
1998 20 1 0 4
1999 21 8 1 1
2000 20 9 3 1
2001 19 5 1 1
2002 18 5 2 1
2003 18 5 0 2
2004 19 1 0 4
2005 21 6 2 1
2006 15 8 2 1
2007 16 7 1 1
2008 6 4 1 2
2009 17 6 0 1
2010 12 0 0 68
2011 9 0 0 128
2012 19 3 0 2
2013 16 5 0 1
298 79 14
He won 79 tournaments over 18 years. In his best ten years, Tiger won over 25 percent of the tournaments he entered. In 2006 he won over one-half of the tournaments. These are with fields of about 150 golfers. He won 14 majors over a 12-year period. The "Pos." stat is position on the money-winning list, on which he was #1 ten separate years (and #2 an additional three years).

So, the complaint is what, from purely a golf performance standpoint? He was done at age 37? Tiger's situation seems sad now, but in ten-to-twenty years his career will be seen as the most amazing in golf history. I expect his drive to win subsided, but I also expect that his physical ailments have been a serious problem at the end of his career.

By the way, I read recently a critique of Paul McCartney, in that he was only productive for about ten years and wrote few memorable songs after the mid-70's. It was described as a waste of talent. Can we be thankful for what we got? Same with Tiger.

Well said. Rare is the talent that does not ebb and flow. Staying on top - at the razors edge - is precarious. There is no margin of error and every aspect of life works to bring you down. Admire and respect for the short interim.

[BD80]

In the places where people talk when they don't want to be heard, similar things have been said about my posts.

Though I may be confusing waste of talent with no talent.

Or a talented waist?

7474

[OldPhiKap]

Or a talented waist?

7474

As that great modern-day philosopher Shakira has noted: hips don't lie.

[BD80]

... that great modern-day philosopher Shakira ...

The tiger from "Jungle Book?"

Or the "I Feel For You?" singer?

[Rich]

Here's another take from an Op Ed piece in today's NY Times

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/06/02/opinion/you-dont-know-tiger-woods.html?ref=opinion&_r=0

We don’t know Tiger Woods. We never did. That’s O.K. He has provided decades of entertainment for fans, inspired legions of athletes to push themselves to be their best and, oh, yes, made millions of dollars for many people. We don’t own him or his story, and we don’t get to ascribe a tragic narrative to him that might not even be true. He doesn’t need our faux concern. He is his own human being, not yours and not ours. His story line belongs to him and no one else. He’s not your friend. He’s not your family. You don’t know him at all. Please just let the man get old like the rest of us in peace.

[sagegrouse]

Here's another take from an Op Ed piece in today's NY Times

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/06/02/opinion/you-dont-know-tiger-woods.html?ref=opinion&_r=0

We don’t know Tiger Woods. We never did. That’s O.K. He has provided decades of entertainment for fans, inspired legions of athletes to push themselves to be their best and, oh, yes, made millions of dollars for many people. We don’t own him or his story, and we don’t get to ascribe a tragic narrative to him that might not even be true. He doesn’t need our faux concern. He is his own human being, not yours and not ours. His story line belongs to him and no one else. He’s not your friend. He’s not your family. You don’t know him at all. Please just let the man get old like the rest of us in peace.

Sensible words by Will Leitch, senior writer for "Sports on Earth," founder of "Deadspin" (it said under the story), and contributing editor for the "NY Times Magazine."

[sagegrouse]

How about Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart (27 January 1756 – 5 December 1791)? Man, if that dude had taken better care of himself, we would have had a lot more great music -- maybe twice as much.

[Indoor66]

How about Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart (27 January 1756 – 5 December 1791)? Man, if that dude had taken better care of himself, we would have had a lot more great music -- maybe twice as much.

What about Van Gogh? Call him back as well.

[OldPhiKap]

Imagine if Jimi Hendrix had a 50-year body of recorded work.

[BD80]

What about Van Gogh? Call him back as well.

When you call, try to be on his right side.


Vince was pretty used up early, pumping out 1,000 or so paintings in those last couple of years. The human wrist just wasn't meant to endure such repetitive torque.

[Indoor66]

When you call, try to be on his right side.


Vince was pretty used up early, pumping out 1,000 or so paintings in those last couple of years. The human wrist just wasn't meant to endure such repetitive torque.

But he had great, world class therapy.

[OldPhiKap]

When you call, try to be on his right side.


Vince was pretty used up early, pumping out 1,000 or so paintings in those last couple of years. The human wrist just wasn't meant to endure such repetitive torque.


But he had great, world class therapy.

Yeah, but Pablo Picasso was never called a covfefe, at least according to Jonathan Richman:


https://youtu.be/Kc2iLAubras

(If you don't know who Jonathan Richman is, well first you should. Second, he was the guitarist/singer in There's Something About Mary although he had been on the road for years before that).

[Reilly]

... he was only productive for about ten years ... It was described as a waste of talent. Can we be thankful for what we got? ....


... Rare is the talent that does not ebb and flow. Staying on top - at the razors edge - is precarious. There is no margin of error and every aspect of life works to bring you down ...

All of which highlights, for me, what an amazing outlier we have with K, as well as devildeac and the "Ymm, Beer" thread.

[devildeac]

All of which highlights, for me, what an amazing outlier we have with K, as well as devildeac and the "Ymm, Beer" thread.

I am humbled and honored to be included in the same sentence as K :o.

Hey, he's got more wins and I've got more beers. We'll call it a draw :rolleyes:.

At least no one has criticized me for not drinking enough pale ales or giving too many minutes posting time to my Russian imperial stouts. Yet.:rolleyes:

I am however, currently icing down a minor foot injury that I think is plantar fasciitis and hoping it's not a stress fracture.

(ducks)

[Indoor66]

I am humbled and honored to be included in the same sentence as K .

Hey, he's got more wins and I've got more beers. We'll call it a draw .

At least no one has criticized me for not drinking enough pale ales or giving too many minutes posting time to my Russian imperial stouts. Yet.

I am however, currently icing down a minor foot injury that I think is plantar fasciitis and hoping it's not a stress fracture.

(ducks)

Your humility becomes you. :p:rolleyes::cool:

[BD80]

I am humbled and honored to be included in the same sentence as K :o.

Hey, he's got more wins and I've got more beers. We'll call it a draw ...

Draught beers?

[devildeac]

Draught beers?

Draft/draught/draw, no matter, I'm getting thirsty. ;)

[Jeffrey]

By the way, I read recently a critique of Paul McCartney, in that he was only productive for about ten years and wrote few memorable songs after the mid-70's. It was described as a waste of talent. Can we be thankful for what we got? Same with Tiger.

IMO, most songwriters are similar to athletes. They're best from age 18-40 and the game usually takes all they have to give. IMO, expecting Paul to write his best songs in his 40's is almost as extreme as expecting Tiger to play his best golf in his 40's.

[Jeffrey]

Well said. Rare is the talent that does not ebb and flow. Staying on top - at the razors edge - is precarious. There is no margin of error and every aspect of life works to bring you down. Admire and respect for the short interim.

Yep, Johnny Miller was awesome from 1974-1976. During that period, Miller may have been the greatest ball-striker in the history of golf. Miller was playing absolutely amazing golf!

And, then, yip, Johnny was gone.