Frank Jackson Reportedly Declares But Not Hiring Agent

[mr. synellinden]

Gary Parrish just tweeted (https://twitter.com/GaryParrishCBS/status/854482284627546112):

No announcement is imminent. But Frank Jackson is planning to return to Duke for his sophomore season, a source told @CBSSports.


4/22- Moderator Note: Numerous sources now reporting Frank Jackson has declared but will not hire agent, so possibly just testing the waters.

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/2705218-duke-pg-frank-jackson-reportedly-declares-for-2017-nba-draft-wont-hire-agent
http://www.sltrib.com/sports/5091427-155/nba-dukes-frank-jackson-a-lone

[NM Duke Fan]

I never put any stock in that rumor from one site, and it just seemed to make perfect sense to return for at least one more year. But good to get some more evidence!

[richardjackson199]

This is great to hear!

Goodman's article on ESPN below about Grayson returning (pretty annoying, I recommend not reading it!) also alludes to Frank's status being unclear. So that rumor was out there.

http://www.espn.com/mens-college-basketball/story/_/id/19187876/grayson-allen-duke-blue-devils-return-senior-season

[flyingdutchdevil]

This is great to hear!

Goodman's article on ESPN below about Grayson returning (pretty annoying, I recommend not reading it!) also alludes to Frank's status being unclear. So that rumor was out there.

http://www.espn.com/mens-college-basketball/story/_/id/19187876/grayson-allen-duke-blue-devils-return-senior-season

What's annoying about it? This?


The 6-foot-5 Allen had a disappointing campaign both on and off the court. He battled numerous injuries, was suspended for a game due to a tripping incident -- and also saw his NBA stock take a hit.

The latter part of the paragraph is 100% accurate. The first part is debatable. I think the question should be, "Do you think Grayson was happy with how the season went?" If you think "Yes!", then you think Goodman is wrong. If you think, "Probably not", then you'll agree with Goodman. I tend to think, "Probably not".

[CDu]

Best SG/SF rotation in the nation with Jackson, Allen, and Trent. Hopefully we add a PG to make it all hum. I wasn't worried Jackson would go, but nice to have confirmation.

[flyingdutchdevil]

Best SG/SF rotation in the nation with Jackson, Allen, and Trent. Hopefully we add a PG to make it all hum. I wasn't worried Jackson would go, but nice to have confirmation.

It's a nasty collection of wings. But I really want Duval. He would take so much pressure off of Grayson and (especially) Jackson.

[richardjackson199]

What's annoying about it? This?



The latter part of the paragraph is 100% accurate. The first part is debatable. I think the question should be, "Do you think Grayson was happy with how the season went?" If you think "Yes!", then you think Goodman is wrong. If you think, "Probably not", then you'll agree with Goodman. I tend to think, "Probably not".

I guess I'm just focusing on different things than Goodman.

I'm looking to put the past season, when Grayson wasn't healthy and was unfairly vilified by the media, in the rear-view. I'm really looking forward to what senior captain Grayson will do next season. I expect Grayson to earn first round draft status, be an All American, and complete the kind of senior year that earns his jersey hanging in Cameron's rafters forever.

I'm excited about this decision because having a player like Grayson Allen for 4 years is pretty rare and pretty cool.

[Troublemaker]

Best SG/SF rotation in the nation with Jackson, Allen, and Trent. Hopefully we add a PG to make it all hum. I wasn't worried Jackson would go, but nice to have confirmation.

Maybe I'm overly superstitious, but let's not jinx this. "Planning to return" is different from "return." Plus, an unnamed source.

April 23rd is Sunday. Once that day passes and there is no declaration, then that's confirmation.

[ndkjr70]

Maybe I'm overly superstitious, but let's not jinx this. "Planning to return" is different from "return." Plus, an unnamed source.

April 23rd is Sunday. Once that day passes and there is no declaration, then that's confirmation.

I'm in the same boat. Granted, I'll say Gary Parrish has a lot more insider info than some of the other guys we've been following, but in the past few weeks we've been told that Bolden was transferring, Jackson was declaring, Duval was visiting today, and Knox was leaving UNC off his visit list.

I'll take this as good news, but I'll go ahead and do so with cautious optimism.

[Wander]

Best SG/SF rotation in the nation with Jackson, Allen, and Trent. Hopefully we add a PG to make it all hum.

Perhaps. But if we get Duval and miss on Knox, I forsee 4 guard lineups in our future.

[Newton_14]

Looking forward to Frank's Sophomore campaign. Lots of potential there. I think we only saw the tip of the surface this season.

With Grayson and Frank on the wings and Trent spelling them off the bench, we should once again have a strong offensive backcourt. Grayson will slide right back into the role he played his Soph season and Luke played this season. He will thrive in that role as a Senior as will Frank on the other wing.

Awesome to have them both back.

[ncexnyc]

I'm not sure why some people want to continue shortchanging Frank, but he is definitely our starting point guard next season. I firmly believe he earned that right by the way he performed down the stretch last season.

[WiJoe]

I'm not sure why some people want to continue shortchanging Frank, but he is definitely our starting point guard next season. I firmly believe he earned that right by the way he performed down the stretch last season.

Even if Duval comes?

[Troublemaker]

I'm not sure why some people want to continue shortchanging Frank, but he is definitely our starting point guard next season. I firmly believe he earned that right by the way he performed down the stretch last season.

Newton_14 is assuming that Duval comes. It's a double jinx (assuming both Frank and Duval), but if true, Duval would be the primary PG, yes.

Please, basketball gods, let this happen. The quickness, ball-handling, and passing of a Duval-Jackson-Allen perimeter, wow. With a really good, top-15 frosh in Trent off the bench. That's what I've been rooting for since the offseason started.

[richardjackson199]

I'm not sure why some people want to continue shortchanging Frank, but he is definitely our starting point guard next season. I firmly believe he earned that right by the way he performed down the stretch last season.

I love Frank, I think he starts for us next year, I think he has a breakout season, and I hope Duval starts as our point guard. IMO Frank is a scorer and is at his best when playing as a scorer in an off guard position. Frank is not at his best when his primary role is trying to create for his teammates. But Duval can certainly do that.

If we start Duval at point, Grayson and Frank as scoring guards, Carter at 4, and Bamba or Bolden at 5, we will be fun to watch. With Trent and Knox off the bench, that team becomes a title contender.

We'll see, but I'd sure love to see 2-3 more recruits join this exciting team.

[lotusland]

I'm not sure why some people want to continue shortchanging Frank, but he is definitely our starting point guard next season. I firmly believe he earned that right by the way he performed down the stretch last season.

Allen was more effective at PG than Jackson last year at least from an offensive standpoint. I'm sure Duvall will be great if he comes but I'm not worried as much about generating points either way. Frank and Grayson should compliment each other well. Frank did s good job of getting to the rim at times but he can improve at dropping the ball off to the open bigs when the defense rotates over.

[CDu]

Newton_14 is assuming that Duval comes. It's a double jinx (assuming both Frank and Duval), but if true, Duval would be the primary PG, yes.

Please, basketball gods, let this happen. The quickness, ball-handling, and passing of a Duval-Jackson-Allen perimeter, wow. With a really good, top-15 frosh in Trent off the bench. That's what I've been rooting for since the offseason started.

Yep. If we are fortunate to pair Allen with both Duval and Jackson, with a frontcourt rotation of - at least - Bolden, Carter, and DeLaurier, that is a wealth of talent.

[Troublemaker]

I love Frank, I think he starts for us next year, I think he has a breakout season, and I hope Duval starts as our point guard. IMO Frank is a scorer and is at his best when playing as a scorer in an off guard position. Frank is not at his best when his primary role is trying to create for his teammates. But Duval can certainly do that.

If we start Duval at point, Grayson and Frank as scoring guards, Carter at 4, and Bamba or Bolden at 5, we will be fun to watch. With Trent and Knox off the bench, that team becomes a title contender.

We'll see, but I'd sure love to see 2-3 more recruits join this exciting team.

I think if Duke hangs onto Frank and lands Duval, we'll be a title contender even without Bamba and Knox. We probably wouldn't be the strongest contender, but we'll be up there.


Yep. If we are fortunate to pair Allen with both Duval and Jackson, with a frontcourt rotation of - at least - Bolden, Carter, and DeLaurier, that is a wealth of talent.

Yup. We'd just need health.

[szstark]

Perhaps. But if we get Duval and miss on Knox, I forsee 4 guard lineups in our future.

With Bolden, Carter, DeLaurier, and Vrank already available, why would this happen?

[rtnorthrup]

I'm not sure why some people want to continue shortchanging Frank, but he is definitely our starting point guard next season. I firmly believe he earned that right by the way he performed down the stretch last season.

I don't think it is any way shortchanging Frank. Frank has the potential to be an elite scoring wing player at Duke. In his FR year, he did not demonstrate natural PG tendencies, but that isn't shortchanging him. If we land a PG in this class I think you will see a breakout Soph season from Frank.

[flyingdutchdevil]

With Bolden, Carter, DeLaurier, and Vrank already available, why would this happen?

Cus we had Jefferson, Giles, Bolden, Jeter, DeLaurier, and Vrank last year. And Tatum pretty much exclusively played the 4.

[Wander]

With Bolden, Carter, DeLaurier, and Vrank already available, why would this happen?

I think people on this thread are vastly overrating our frontcourt. Or maybe to be more precise, overrating the certainty to which our frontcourt will be good. It certainly has the possibility of turning out really well, but we have zero players who we know for sure are going to be ACC-level good. DeLaurer and Vrank weren't even rotation players, and people are forgetting that Bolden wasn't either in their (justifiable) excitement over his coming back.

I do think the most likely scenario is Bolden improves a lot and we have at least one freshman who is also really good. But even in that case, if there's no one else ready to contribute at an ACC level, that will lead to 4 guard lineups reasonably often.

[duketaylor]

Wendell Carter should be able to contribute immediately. IMO.

[CDu]

I think people on this thread are vastly overrating our frontcourt. Or maybe to be more precise, overrating the certainty to which our frontcourt will be good. It certainly has the possibility of turning out really well, but we have zero players who we know for sure are going to be ACC-level good. DeLaurer and Vrank weren't even rotation players, and people are forgetting that Bolden wasn't either in their (justifiable) excitement over his coming back.

I do think the most likely scenario is Bolden improves a lot and we have at least one freshman who is also really good. But even in that case, if there's no one else ready to contribute at an ACC level, that will lead to 4 guard lineups reasonably often.

I think there is certainly the possibility that we see a decent amount of 4-guard lineups (with Trent at PF) if we get Duval, keep Jackson, and don't get Knox. Then, it comes down to how ready Bolden, Carter, and DeLaurier are ready to contribute. If any are not, then we'll very likely see a sizeable chunk of time with 4 guards.

Basically, the biggest question mark I see is DeLaurier. He is the guy who would have to prove he can handle major minutes to avoid a 4-guard lineup being the norm. I suspect that Carter will be good, as we've not had a healthy top-5 player miss the rotation before. And if that's the case, then Bolden is at worst a backup to Carter. But if DeLaurier isn't ready to play 15-20 mpg at PF, we likely aren't going to have an option other than the 4-guard lineup.

That being said, DeLaurier was a top-40 recruit in a pretty strong recruiting class who was buried behind Jefferson, Tatum, and Giles as an option at PF. He has the size and athleticism to be a contributor - it's just a matter of him proving to Coach K that he is ready to handle the minutes.

[flyingdutchdevil]

Wendell Carter should be able to contribute immediately. IMO.

I would change that to "will" be able to contribute immediately. Carter is a top 4 player who scouts argue is the most "college ready". He doesn't have the NBA potential of Ayton or Bamba, but he'll be high-impact for Duke from Day 1.

I'm sure I'm in the minority here, but I'm more unsure about the improvement of Bolden from this year to next.

[pfrduke]

Cus we had Jefferson, Giles, Bolden, Jeter, DeLaurier, and Vrank last year. And Tatum pretty much exclusively played the 4.

Tatum isn't a guard, though. Tatum was quite comfortably a college 4 - at the very least, a hybrid 3/4 - he lost very few size matchups. That's a different story from Gary Trent (and I know Trent somehow measures out the same size as Winslow, but in the games I've seen thus far, he doesn't look it).

[flyingdutchdevil]

Tatum isn't a guard, though. Tatum was quite comfortably a college 4 - at the very least, a hybrid 3/4 - he lost very few size matchups. That's a different story from Gary Trent (and I know Trent somehow measures out the same size as Winslow, but in the games I've seen thus far, he doesn't look it).

Oh, I don't disagree with you. Trent is a Duke 3 whilst Tatum is a Duke 4.

But the poster asked why we'd play Trent at the 4 instead of our big men. I responded to the point that, despite a plethora of non-shooting big men last year, Coach K relied on 1.5 of them. Could happen next year as well.

[rtnorthrup]

Oh, I don't disagree with you. Trent is a Duke 3 whilst Tatum is a Duke 4.

But the poster asked why we'd play Trent at the 4 instead of our big men. I responded to the point that, despite a plethora of non-shooting big men last year, Coach K relied on 1.5 of them. Could happen next year as well.

Did we ever really have a plethora of healthy non-shooting big men last year? It appeared at times that K desperately wanted either Giles or Boldon to play alongside Jefferson at least for certain spells, but neither of them were ever completely healthy or ready to play big minutes. The most we ever could get out of either of them was to spell Jefferson when he got in foul trouble.

Assuming Bolden gets healthy and develops this offseason, I think the combination of he and Carter is a completely different scenario than we had last year.

[JNort]

I don't think it is any way shortchanging Frank. Frank has the potential to be an elite scoring wing player at Duke. In his FR year, he did not demonstrate natural PG tendencies, but that isn't shortchanging him. If we land a PG in this class I think you will see a breakout Soph season from Frank.

I'd rather see Frank at point more if anything. He was the best at it on the roster this past season but for some reason we kept trying to let Grayson run point. His future imo is at pg anyway

[flyingdutchdevil]

I'd rather see Frank at point more if anything. He was the best at it on the roster this past season but for some reason we kept trying to let Grayson run point. His future imo is at pg anyway

We saw a very different Frank Jackson at the point last year. I'm not suggesting don't start Jackson at the 1 next year. But Jackson at the 1 last year was a horrible experiment. He's not a natural passer and makes easy passes look hard. He's great at penetrating, but his handle needs improvement.

[cato]

Oh, I don't disagree with you. Trent is a Duke 3 whilst Tatum is a Duke 4.

But the poster asked why we'd play Trent at the 4 instead of our big men. I responded to the point that, despite a plethora of non-shooting big men last year, Coach K relied on 1.5 of them. Could happen next year as well.

And it's a solid point, but really the point is this: K is going to play the player that fits best at the 4. When you have an NBA 3/lottery pick, that guy is likely to be the best at the 4, unless you have two exceptional NBA bigs.

Recall that it took Winslow a large part of the season to secure the 4 spot, pushing Amile to the bench. K first tried to play Jefferson and Okafor together in the starting lineup.

With the current roster, I don't think we have a duo as strong as Junior Jefferson and Okafor, but I am not sure we have someone like Winslow who can fit at the 4 so well.

In other words, I agree that no Knox means a strong possibility of small ball as the main lineup. But I think K will try everything before settling on that.

[kAzE]

I think people on this thread are vastly overrating our frontcourt. Or maybe to be more precise, overrating the certainty to which our frontcourt will be good. It certainly has the possibility of turning out really well, but we have zero players who we know for sure are going to be ACC-level good. DeLaurer and Vrank weren't even rotation players, and people are forgetting that Bolden wasn't either in their (justifiable) excitement over his coming back.

I do think the most likely scenario is Bolden improves a lot and we have at least one freshman who is also really good. But even in that case, if there's no one else ready to contribute at an ACC level, that will lead to 4 guard lineups reasonably often.

Who is overrating the front court? And how so?

I think Carter is about as can't miss as it gets for a freshman. He was an early bloomer physically, and knows how to use his massive frame to be effective. I also think he will surprise a lot of folks as a better defender than people realize. He is very coordinated for such a huge human being. I think there's a very good chance he will lead the team in rebounds next year, even with Bolden on the roster.

I won't mince words, Bolden was a disappointment in his freshman year, but we seem to all think he will improve next year. His plan is obviously to make it to the NBA after his sophomore year, so if that's his goal, I think we have to expect massive improvement, especially as a rim protector.

Presumably, that's 2 NBA big men. And that's before you factor in potentially getting Kevin Knox, who would be our 3rd NBA big man. That's a pretty stacked front court with just those 3. Then there's also Vrankovic and DeLaurier.

I'm not quite as sold on Vrankovic as some others, I think he's a solid, if unspectacular, player who can come in and get some rebounds. I think his defense will need to improve if he ever wants to become a rotation player. DeLaurier has a ton of potential. Some of us are VERY optimistic about his ceiling, but it remains to be seen if he will capitalize on that potential.

I think everyone is a bit on edge because of how last year turned out. Last year was a pretty huge aberration, and has no relevance to next year in my opinion. Harry's situation with his knee injuries was totally unique, and Bolden's entire season was a head scratcher from start to finish. Big men develop more slowly to begin with, and missing all of those practices to start out the season was a huge disadvantage.

I'm of the opinion that Carter is a sure thing as an elite rebounder and interior scorer, and Bolden should be MUCH improved. That should be the best 1-2 big man combo in the ACC, with solid depth. I don't think that's overrating them. The key thing is whether or not those 2 guys can play together effectively, and whether or not we get Knox, who opens up more options for smaller lineups.

Edit: I meant for this to be a much shorter post, and after I made it much longer, and realized it was in the Frank Jackson thread, now I feel bad. But I'm obviously very happy that Frank is returning for his sophomore year.

[Troublemaker]

In other words, I agree that no Knox means a strong possibility of small ball as the main lineup. But I think K will try everything before settling on that.

Yep. Last week I argued that 4-guard lineups were possible without Knox. But, Bolden will get first dibs to be the starter alongside Carter. And DeLaurier/White will get first dibs to be the backup PF. If all of them fail to impress Coach K, THEN we'll see lots of 4-guard lineups. (We'll probably see some in end-of-game FT-shooting lineups, regardless.)

[Ichabod Drain]

Did we ever really have a plethora of healthy non-shooting big men last year?

In short, yes.

[Wander]

Who is overrating the front court? And how so?

Presumably, that's 2 NBA big men. And that's before you factor in potentially getting Kevin Knox, who would be our 3rd NBA big man. That's a pretty stacked front court with just those 3. Then there's also Vrankovic and DeLaurier.

Anyone who's talking about our frontcourt being a definite strength of the team is overrating it IMO. That could happen, but some pieces need to fall into place.



Presumably, that's 2 NBA big men. And that's before you factor in potentially getting Kevin Knox, who would be our 3rd NBA big man. That's a pretty stacked front court with just those 3. Then there's also Vrankovic and DeLaurier.


I think you're answering your own question here. If we don't get Knox, and Vrankovic/DeLaurier don't turn into rotation players, we're going to see a bunch of 4 guard lineups because Bolden and Carter aren't going to play 40 minutes a game. Right?

[kAzE]

Anyone who's talking about our frontcourt being a definite strength of the team is overrating it IMO. That could happen, but some pieces need to fall into place.

Well, there's always going to be uncertainty in any situation. There could be injuries yet again (hopefully not), and you're right, getting Knox is very important. That's a position of need for sure. We have a lot of big guys and little guys, but no in-between guys right now. And also, I think our perimeter players are going to be the #1 strength of the team, because Grayson and Frank are likely to be the best 2 college players on the team. Still, I don't think we're overrating the big guys. Carter and Bolden are really good.


I think you're answering your own question here. If we don't get Knox, and Vrankovic/DeLaurier don't turn into rotation players, we're going to see a bunch of 4 guard lineups because Bolden and Carter aren't going to play 40 minutes a game. Right?

Not really . . . I'm one of the people who thinks Javin is going to be really, really good. He'll be a rotation player next year. The main concern with a Bolden/Carter front court has more to do with defense than offense, and I think Javin is versatile enough to cover 4s on defense if that pair doesn't work out. I would not be surprised to see Javin start some games if we don't get Knox.

[ChillinDuke]

Yep. Last week I argued that 4-guard lineups were possible without Knox. But, Bolden will get first dibs to be the starter alongside Carter. And DeLaurier/White will get first dibs to be the backup PF. If all of them fail to impress Coach K, THEN we'll see lots of 4-guard lineups. (We'll probably see some in end-of-game FT-shooting lineups, regardless.)

This is exactly how I see it. It's not formulaic; it's not "oh we need a shooter at the 4" or "we need a wing at the 4". They will try whatever makes the most sense given the circumstances. And if that fails, they will correspondingly go down the ladder of sensical moves until they land at what they deem is the most advantageous lineup to put us in a competitive position to win games.

Does that mean Trent-at-the-four is impossible? Or that we won't see it, even in the early days of the season? Of course not. But I am nowhere near convinced that Trent-at-the-four will be a "likely" go-to lineup this year, even at the end of the year. Too many things would have to go wrong for that to happen. So, possible? Yes. But I wouldn't bet on it (unless I got great odds).

- Chillin

[CDu]

Anyone who's talking about our frontcourt being a definite strength of the team is overrating it IMO. That could happen, but some pieces need to fall into place.



I think you're answering your own question here. If we don't get Knox, and Vrankovic/DeLaurier don't turn into rotation players, we're going to see a bunch of 4 guard lineups because Bolden and Carter aren't going to play 40 minutes a game. Right?

Yeah, the frontcourt depth/quality depends on either getting Knox or having DeLaurier or Vrankovic (less likely as he's the third center option rather than a PF) step up. Otherwise, as you said, it's a minutes issue. In that scenario, unless Carter and Bolden can play 40 minutes each, we'll have to play some substantive minutes with a small ball lineup.

Here's hoping that we either land Knox or DeLaurier (and to a lesser degree Bolden) are ready to step up and fill the void in the frontcourt rotation.

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

With Bolden, Carter, DeLaurier, and Vrank already available, why would this happen?

We had three of those four last year and they were minimum contributers at best. Our frontcourt might be great, but if so, it means some guys have drastically improved.

I am a bit gunshy about predictions this off-season.

[El_Diablo]

Rotation discussion thread: http://forums.dukebasketballreport.com/forums/showthread.php?40010-Duke-Rotation-Discussion-for-2017-18

[jv001]

We had three of those four last year and they were minimum contributers at best. Our frontcourt might be great, but if so, it means some guys have drastically improved.

I am a bit gunshy about predictions this off-season.

Count me in the gunshy group as well. My concern is not about our offense because Jackson at SG and Grayson at SF give us a bunch of points. My worry or concern is Bolden and DeLaurier getting so many quick fouls. I think that came from being in the wrong place on defense. If either or both don't improve in that area, we will see 4 guard lineups, if we get Duval or land a grad PG. GoDuke!

[Troublemaker]

But I am nowhere near convinced that Trent-at-the-four will be a "likely" go-to lineup this year, even at the end of the year. Too many things would have to go wrong for that to happen. So, possible? Yes. But I wouldn't bet on it (unless I got great odds).

I think you can get great odds from FDD right now, based on how down he's been since the season ended.

How 'bout this? A devildeac beer bet between Chillin' and FDD on how many minutes per game Trent will play at the 4 next season.

Chillin' says < 10 mpg. FDD -- do you want to take the other side to win a delicious devildeac 6-pack?

[ncexnyc]

Even if Duval comes?

Yes, I guess I'm more impressed with what a kid has actually shown while wearing DUKE across his chest than I am with someone who hasn't played a minute for us. Again, I keep seeing people on this forum so infatuated with the new shiny toy that's on display.

I know that some on here believe you can't tell just how good a player is my their performance in the HS All-Star games, but when I saw Kyrie and Tyus I knew they had that special something necessary to be outstanding PG's. Duval really didn't impress me all that much in what little I've seen of him.

People keep pointing out that Frank isn't a natural PG, but he didn't embarrass himself out there last season and he has all the tools to develop into an outstanding one and quite honestly we did pretty well without one in 2010.

[ChillinDuke]

I think you can get great odds from FDD right now, based on how down he's been since the season ended.

How 'bout this? A devildeac beer bet between Chillin' and FDD on how many minutes per game Trent will play at the 4 next season.

Chillin' says < 10 mpg. FDD -- do you want to take the other side to win a delicious devildeac 6-pack?

Someone else brokering my bets.

A new low...

Or high?

Nonetheless, I'm obviously going to agree to this at any price.

- Chillin

[Merlindevildog91]

Someone else brokering my bets.

- Chillin

That's why his name is Troublemaker....

[devildeac]

I think you can get great odds from FDD right now, based on how down he's been since the season ended.

How 'bout this? A devildeac beer bet between Chillin' and FDD on how many minutes per game Trent will play at the 4 next season.

Chillin' says < 10 mpg. FDD -- do you want to take the other side to win a delicious devildeac 6-pack?

I'm in. Usual advisory fees apply. ;)

[Olympic Fan]

I hate minutes discussions (glad there is now a separate thread so I can ignore it)

But I can't help being sucked into this one.

The question of how much (or whether) Gary Trent will play the four next season pretty much depends on how our recruiting goes. Add Knox and/or Bomba and I think he'll see very little action at the four. Maybe a few late-game situations when we're trying to get the best FT shooters on the court,

But add Duval and miss on Knox and Bomba and suddenly we have four prime guards (Allen, Jackson, Duval and Trent) and just two prime post players (Bolden and Carter). Sure, DeLaurier would get major backup minutes at the four in that scenario, but I think Trent would also get a lot (in that he's the biggest and the strongest of the guards).

If K misses on all of his remaining targets, then we have just three prime guards and I think Trent would get very little time at the four -- he would be our primary 3 (in a three-guard offense).

So the one scenario that has Trent playing significant minutes at the 4 is the one where we get Duval and nobody else.

[niveklaen]

If 2 of Frank/Duval/Grayson are on the court with Trent and White - will that count as time with Trent at the 4?
(sorta like when Nelson and Henderson were on the floor together with 2 of Paulus/dockery/scheyer - there was no apparent consensus as to which was playing the 4 and it is now common to hear that both spent most of the season playing the 4....)

[COYS]

I hate minutes discussions (glad there is now a separate thread so I can ignore it)

But I can't help being sucked into this one.

The question of how much (or whether) Gary Trent will play the four next season pretty much depends on how our recruiting goes. Add Knox and/or Bomba and I think he'll see very little action at the four. Maybe a few late-game situations when we're trying to get the best FT shooters on the court,

But add Duval and miss on Knox and Bomba and suddenly we have four prime guards (Allen, Jackson, Duval and Trent) and just two prime post players (Bolden and Carter). Sure, DeLaurier would get major backup minutes at the four in that scenario, but I think Trent would also get a lot (in that he's the biggest and the strongest of the guards).

If K misses on all of his remaining targets, then we have just three prime guards and I think Trent would get very little time at the four -- he would be our primary 3 (in a three-guard offense).

So the one scenario that has Trent playing significant minutes at the 4 is the one where we get Duval and nobody else.

Coach K loves floor spacing, but he also loves players who are able to defend their position. When Duke has played a 6-5 or under player at PF in the recent past, it is usually due to a combination of roster construction AND the strength/athleticism of the guard. DeMarcus Nelson was a monster athlete and ace defender at Duke. Justise Winslow is a monster athlete and ace defender (and I guess he doesn't even fit because he is 6-6). Gerald Henderson, who occasionally played a little at the 4, was a great athlete with lots of strength who was a very good defender, especially against bigger players. I haven't seen much of Trent outside of the all star games, but my impression is that while he is as strong or stronger as those guys as freshmen, he isn't quite the athlete in terms of leaping ability that those guys were. In 2008, DMarc had a better defensive rebounding rate than Kyle Singler. Justise actually had a better rebound rate than Jahlil Okafor did. Those guys might have been short, but they were excellent at doing the basic things a power forward is supposed to do.

Maybe I'm wrong and Trent actually is a better athlete than I realized. But there's a reason coach K picked Gerald and DeMarcus to deputize at the 4 instead of the 6-6 Jon Scheyer. Jon, despite all of his other gifts, just didn't have the strength and athleticism to compete in the paint. I am unwilling to wager on how much time Trent spends at the 4 outside of end-of-game situations until we see what kind of athlete he is and if rebounding and athleticism will be a strength of his.

[kAzE]

Coach K loves floor spacing, but he also loves players who are able to defend their position.

Being able to defend your position is nice, but Coach K (and I suspect ALL coaches) prefer players who can defend multiple positions. Coach K especially values this, because he would prefer to switch on screens 1 through 5 if he could.

[CDu]

Being able to defend your position is nice, but Coach K (and I suspect ALL coaches) prefer players who can defend multiple positions. Coach K especially values this, because he would prefer to switch on screens 1 through 5 if he could.

Yes, but first and foremost you need to have someone who can defend each position on the floor. He would not, for example, play 5 Brian Zoubeks. Nor would he play 5 Greg Pauluses. He's not going to play Derryck Thornton at C, because Thornton can't defend the C position. He will play Winslow at PF, because Winslow could defend PFs. Similarly, he was not afraid to play Battier anywhere, though Battier played primarily at PF (with some minutes at SF and some at C as well).

It'd be great if a guy could defend multiple positions, but the most critical thing is being capable of defending at least the position you're asked to play.

[kAzE]

Yes, but first and foremost you need to have someone who can defend each position on the floor. He would not, for example, play 5 Brian Zoubeks. Nor would he play 5 Greg Pauluses. He's not going to play Derryck Thornton at C, because Thornton can't defend the C position. He will play Winslow at PF, because Winslow could defend PFs. Similarly, he was not afraid to play Battier anywhere, though Battier played primarily at PF (with some minutes at SF and some at C as well).

It'd be great if a guy could defend multiple positions, but the most critical thing is being capable of defending at least the position you're asked to play.

Sorry, I should have been more clear. Yes, defending the position you play on offense is the most important thing. I assumed it would be a given that one of the "multiple positions" would be the position of the player in question. I was agreeing with COYS, and just wanted to expand on his point for the purposes of Coach K's preferred defensive scheme.

[DallasDevil]

I think you can get great odds from FDD right now, based on how down he's been since the season ended.

How 'bout this? A devildeac beer bet between Chillin' and FDD on how many minutes per game Trent will play at the 4 next season.

Chillin' says < 10 mpg. FDD -- do you want to take the other side to win a delicious devildeac 6-pack?

To give some context, my count of minutes logged (based on the plus/minus thread) with Allen, Kennard, Jackson, and Jones on the court at the same time this past season was about 6.4 minutes per game in which all 4 of those players were available. Not sure how many of those minutes came while Giles/Bolden/Tatum were all all injured.

[mr. synellinden]

Coach K loves floor spacing, but he also loves players who are able to defend their position. When Duke has played a 6-5 or under player at PF in the recent past, it is usually due to a combination of roster construction AND the strength/athleticism of the guard. DeMarcus Nelson was a monster athlete and ace defender at Duke. Justise Winslow is a monster athlete and ace defender (and I guess he doesn't even fit because he is 6-6). Gerald Henderson, who occasionally played a little at the 4, was a great athlete with lots of strength who was a very good defender, especially against bigger players. I haven't seen much of Trent outside of the all star games, but my impression is that while he is as strong or stronger as those guys as freshmen, he isn't quite the athlete in terms of leaping ability that those guys were. In 2008, DMarc had a better defensive rebounding rate than Kyle Singler. Justise actually had a better rebound rate than Jahlil Okafor did. Those guys might have been short, but they were excellent at doing the basic things a power forward is supposed to do.

Maybe I'm wrong and Trent actually is a better athlete than I realized. But there's a reason coach K picked Gerald and DeMarcus to deputize at the 4 instead of the 6-6 Jon Scheyer. Jon, despite all of his other gifts, just didn't have the strength and athleticism to compete in the paint. I am unwilling to wager on how much time Trent spends at the 4 outside of end-of-game situations until we see what kind of athlete he is and if rebounding and athleticism will be a strength of his.

I really think Carter is going to be our primary 4 next season. With Jackson and Allen back and Trent coming in, we will have plenty of 3 point shooting on the perimeter. Carter can shoot jump shots - he's not limited offensively like Amile or Bolden, and he appears very fluid operating outside the lane. He should excel in a motion offense even if he can't step out all the way and hit 3s (yet). I think by the time he gets to the NBA he may be able to shoot 3s. He also is a very good passer as I have seen others note in other threads. He's going to be a challenging match up for defenses even if he doesn't shoot a lot of 3s. He actually reminds me a bit of Laettner and has a soft touch. I see the following potential rotations:


I see Bolden, Carter and Knox or DeLaurier (if Knox goes elsewhere) splitting up time for the two bigs positions.

I see the guard rotation including Allen, Jackson, Trent and one or two of the following (Duval, Smith, or a grad transfer). If one or two of White and O'Connell are ready to contribute, they could see minutes as an 8th man.

[flyingdutchdevil]

I think you can get great odds from FDD right now, based on how down he's been since the season ended.

How 'bout this? A devildeac beer bet between Chillin' and FDD on how many minutes per game Trent will play at the 4 next season.

Chillin' says < 10 mpg. FDD -- do you want to take the other side to win a delicious devildeac 6-pack?

Lol. Not biting on this bet. Cus I think we're getting Knox and he's gonna eat into all the minutes that Trent may/would have at the 4.

You'all know that I love my bets at DBR. But not this one.

Any other "interesting" bets I can opt into? ;)

[Troublemaker]

Lol. Not biting on this bet. Cus I think we're getting Knox and he's gonna eat into all the minutes that Trent may/would have at the 4.

You'all know that I love my bets at DBR. But not this one.

Any other "interesting" bets I can opt into? ;)

I'm sure Chillin' is amenable to adding a stipulation that the bet is canceled if Knox commits to Duke. He just wants to lock you into what he believes is a bad bet for you and a great bet for him.

And thanks, devildeac, as always, for your consultation on these matters.

[ChillinDuke]

I'm sure Chillin' is amenable to adding a stipulation that the bet is canceled if Knox commits to Duke. He just wants to lock you into what he believes is a bad bet for you and a great bet for him.

And thanks, devildeac, as always, for your consultation on these matters.

Amenable.

Proceed.

- Chillin

[Ichabod Drain]

People keep pointing out that Frank isn't a natural PG, but he didn't embarrass himself out there last season and he has all the tools to develop into an outstanding one and quite honestly we did pretty well without one in 2010.

Frank should but that on his resume...

Duke Basketball 2016-2017
-I did not embarrass myself out there.

[ncexnyc]

Frank should but that on his resume...

Duke Basketball 2016-2017
-I did not embarrass myself out there.
LOL, ok so I wasn't exactly tactful with the way I worded that, but considering how some of the people on this forum are talking about his play last season you would think that he was awful.

I saw a young player who came on really strong at the end of the season, a player we all knew wasn't a true PG, but someone who has the tools to become an outstanding PG.

[Saratoga2]

Yes, I guess I'm more impressed with what a kid has actually shown while wearing DUKE across his chest than I am with someone who hasn't played a minute for us. Again, I keep seeing people on this forum so infatuated with the new shiny toy that's on display.

I know that some on here believe you can't tell just how good a player is my their performance in the HS All-Star games, but when I saw Kyrie and Tyus I knew they had that special something necessary to be outstanding PG's. Duval really didn't impress me all that much in what little I've seen of him.

People keep pointing out that Frank isn't a natural PG, but he didn't embarrass himself out there last season and he has all the tools to develop into an outstanding one and quite honestly we did pretty well without one in 2010.

What was obvious about Frank was his explosiveness, physical strength and decent scoring ability (good shooting mechanics and good from the line). He is one of our quicker players and should make strides in his defense and game recognition. I can see him as a very strong candidate for a second PG in a two PG system with Duval. UCONN had that and won a National championship and so did Duke(Quinn and Tyus). With Allen and Trent, we would have 4 guards for a three guard lineup which, with O'Connell as a backup, that would be a terrific backcourt to start the season.

A lot will depend on whether we get either Knox or Bamba as to how the front court will take shape. I current think Carter is a starter and that Bolden will get every chance to show he can handle a front court position. DeLaurier is also knocking on the door of getting serious PT. Assuming these players can show their value, there is still a likelihood that none will be able to provide more than 25 minutes per game. Bamba or Knox would change the dynamic since either might well become a starter inside. I prefer to wait and see what happens with the recruiting before going with hypothetical's.

[budwom]

Being able to defend your position is nice, but Coach K (and I suspect ALL coaches) prefer players who can defend multiple positions. Coach K especially values this, because he would prefer to switch on screens 1 through 5 if he could.

Last year we had a couple of excellent offensive guards who defended their position woefully and mediocrely (yes, it's a mediocre word) respectively, for what that's worth.
I have higher hopes for next year.

[flyingdutchdevil]

Last year we had a couple of excellent offensive guards who defended their position woefully and mediocrely (yes, it's a mediocre word) respectively, for what that's worth.
I have higher hopes for next year.

Luke Kennard is a huge hit to our team offensively, but his absence will be "addition by subtraction" on the defensive end. To that I am sure of. (NOTE: this isn't to say I am happy to see Kennard gone. On the contrary; his offense is so amazing and he's a net positive player, but he's terrible at D).

Grayson is interesting as I thought he's never been an above average defender, but I hope he really works on that over the summer.

And Frank Jackson clearly has the desire and the physical ability but he never really put it together. I expect much improvement on that end.

Trent looks to be good on D, but he's only a freshman.

So, in conclusion, I don't think we'll be elite at D by any means, but I think we'll be better collectively than last year.

[JNort]

Idk I felt more concerned with our inability to rebound than our man defense this past year.

[CDu]

Idk I felt more concerned with our inability to rebound than our man defense this past year.

I don't think we were a bad rebounding team actually. But we were not very good at perimeter defense (to put it mildly) other than Jones.

In many ways Kennard embodied this: pretty solid on the glass, but pretty abysmal on-ball defense and very inconsistent in off-ball defense and awareness.

[Kedsy]

Idk I felt more concerned with our inability to rebound than our man defense this past year.

In 2016-17, for the season, Duke had its best defensive rebounding percentage ever, since they started tracking offensive and defensive rebounds separately. In other words, the 2016-17 edition was the best Duke defensive rebounding team in at least the last 31 seasons, and probably a good number more than that.

Our offensive rebounding was not very good (though, despite that, we had a pretty good offense so I'm not sure how much that matters), but I don't think it's fair to characterize Duke's best ever defensive rebounding performance as an "inability to rebound."

[kAzE]

In 2016-17, for the season, Duke had its best defensive rebounding percentage ever, since they started tracking offensive and defensive rebounds separately. In other words, the 2016-17 edition was the best Duke defensive rebounding team in at least the last 31 seasons, and probably a good number more than that.

Our offensive rebounding was not very good (though, despite that, we had a pretty good offense so I'm not sure how much that matters), but I don't think it's fair to characterize Duke's best ever defensive rebounding performance as an "inability to rebound."

But it's hard to get defensive rebounds when the opponent is making every shot :rolleyes:

[Newton_14]

Luke Kennard is a huge hit to our team offensively, but his absence will be "addition by subtraction" on the defensive end. To that I am sure of. (NOTE: this isn't to say I am happy to see Kennard gone. On the contrary; his offense is so amazing and he's a net positive player, but he's terrible at D).

Grayson is interesting as I thought he's never been an above average defender, but I hope he really works on that over the summer.

And Frank Jackson clearly has the desire and the physical ability but he never really put it together. I expect much improvement on that end.

Trent looks to be good on D, but he's only a freshman.

So, in conclusion, I don't think we'll be elite at D by any means, but I think we'll be better collectively than last year.

Agree. I think of the 3, Grayson by a mile was the better defender last season despite his many injuries. Kennard bless his heart could not guard his shadow, especially off the dribble. He knew where he was supposed to be in help defense but was a step slow in getting there all the time. Frank got lost on his assignment a ton in help defense, sometimes being 10 feet or more from a guy getting an easy bucket whom Frank was supposed to have picked up on a help assignment. If Grayson can stay healthy, and Frank can better master Duke D, (He should as he is a very smart and cerebral kid) both should improve year over year with their defense.

Losing Matt is a blow, but hopefully some of the new guys bring some defensive chops. Trent sounds promising. No clue on Duvall though.

[El_Diablo]

Last year we had a couple of excellent offensive guards who defended their position woefully and mediocrely (yes, it's a mediocre word) respectively, for what that's worth.
I have higher hopes for next year.

No, that's a perfectly cromulent word.

[RepoMan]

Losing Matt is a blow, but hopefully some of the new guys bring some defensive chops. Trent sounds promising. No clue on Duvall though.


Defense is so much a TEAM activity, that having 5 competent defenders would be significantly better having a great defender, a putrid defender, and 3 competent defenders. One weak link and the whole thing falls apart.

[-jk]

Last year we had a couple of excellent offensive guards who defended their position woefully and mediocrely (yes, it's a mediocre word) respectively, for what that's worth.
I have higher hopes for next year.

I suppose if Calvin can verb (http://www.gocomics.com/calvinandhobbes/1993/01/25) words, you can adverb them...

-jk

[devildeac]

I suppose if Calvin can verb (http://www.gocomics.com/calvinandhobbes/1993/01/25) words, you can adverb them...

-jk

Or, Earl and Opal:

http://www.gocomics.com/pickles

[-jk]

Derivative, and recent...

Calvin's is a classic!

-jk

[arydolphin]

From the newspaper in Salt Lake City:
"Former Lone Peak High star Frank Jackson declared for the NBA draft, but will not hire an agent, sources have told The Tribune."

This has also been reported by Jeff Goodman on Twitter. Original link: http://www.sltrib.com/sports/5091427-155/nba-dukes-frank-jackson-a-lone

[pfrduke]

Sheesh.

[Newton_14]

Sheesh.

Sheesh indeed. Good thing Grayson is staying...

[LasVegas]

Man...there is still hope left but I'm not sure how optimistic I will be about a team that only returns Grayson and Bolden. In an alternate universe, could you imagine if DUKE lost both bolden and grayson too? My lord that would of been unprecedented.

[Troublemaker]

This is what I wrote a few days ago in another thread:


Declare doesn't have to mean gone. Frank could end up being a rare "test the waters" player for Duke.

That said, I agree with others that it's worth kicking the tires on Mark Smith as a long-term prospect regardless of Grayson's or Frank's status.

Frank's not gone yet. No agent is key.

[LasVegas]

This is what I wrote a few days ago in another thread:



Frank's not gone yet. No agent is key.

I know nothing but I'm less than 50% confident he will be back now. He gets to work out for these teams and go through the combine right? I anticipate him being very, very impressive both on the court and in the interviews.

[chriso]

Sheesh indeed. Good thing Grayson is staying...

I third that "sheesh."

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

I see thread title has changed... :-/

[Troublemaker]

I know nothing but I'm less than 50% confident he will be back now. He gets to work out for these teams and go through the combine right? I anticipate him being very, very impressive both on the court and in the interviews.

That's possible. It IS a very deep draft. I'm amazed at some of the prospects DraftExpress has listed in the 20s of their mock draft, e.g. TJ Leaf.

I don't see Frank going unless he has a first-round guarantee at least.

[scottdude8]

After this offseason I've all but given up on sport journalism as it pertains to the decision making of college athletes. First "reports" were indicating Bolden was gone, then soon after he says he's back. Now untrustworthy sources were saying Frank may be gone, then more trustworthy "reports" said he would be back, now its back up in the air. I don't know how any of these "journalists" retain much credibility. If you can't trust your sources enough to be nearly 100% confident in what they're saying, you can't report on it. First thing I learned as a STUDENT sports journalist at The Chronicle. And yet many of the same journalists make similar mistakes and incorrect reports over and over again.

Between all this draft stuff and the extra drama that is recruiting, sports journalists need to take a serious look in the mirror about how they address these topics.

On a more on topic note, this news sucks and means we have to be holding our breaths for about another month. I've got to think Frank will be coming back since there seems to be no indications he's projected to be a first rounder, let alone guaranteed to be drafted, this year. Unless someone is in his ear telling him something very different than what seems to be the consensus amongst draft "experts", this had got to be a textbook case of someone using the new rules to his benefit to get evaluated.

At least I hope. I'll be heartbroken if we lose Frank too.

[Troublemaker]

After this offseason I've all but given up on sport journalism as it pertains to the decision making of college athletes. First "reports" were indicating Bolden was gone, then soon after he says he's back. Now untrustworthy sources were saying Frank may be gone, then more trustworthy "reports" said he would be back, now its back up in the air. I don't know how any of these "journalists" retain much credibility. If you can't trust your sources enough to be nearly 100% confident in what they're saying, you can't report on it. First thing I learned as a STUDENT sports journalist at The Chronicle. And yet many of the same journalists make similar mistakes and incorrect reports over and over again.

Between all this draft stuff and the extra drama that is recruiting, sports journalists need to take a serious look in the mirror about how they address these topics.

On a more on topic note, this news sucks and means we have to be holding our breaths for about another month. I've got to think Frank will be coming back since there seems to be no indications he's projected to be a first rounder, let alone guaranteed to be drafted, this year. Unless someone is in his ear telling him something very different than what seems to be the consensus amongst draft "experts", this had got to be a textbook case of someone using the new rules to his benefit to get evaluated.

At least I hope. I'll be heartbroken if we lose Frank too.

How can you blame Gary Parrish?

This was his entire tweet:


Gary Parrish just tweeted (https://twitter.com/GaryParrishCBS/status/854482284627546112):
No announcement is imminent. But Frank Jackson is planning to return to Duke for his sophomore season, a source told @CBSSports.


I wrote at the time that his tweet was not definitive enough (nor specific enough) for Duke fans to assume that Frank wouldn't declare for the draft (without an agent).

[Furniture]

Hmmmmmm!
"Frank has always wanted to be in the NBA," his father, Al, told The Tribune in a phone interview. "He went to Duke for a variety of reasons, and we absolutely made the right decision. If he had gone anywhere else, we wouldn't have had to struggle with this decision. Frank would've been a one-and-done player with no doubt."

[Devil2]

Hmmmmmm!
"Frank has always wanted to be in the NBA," his father, Al, told The Tribune in a phone interview. "He went to Duke for a variety of reasons, and we absolutely made the right decision. If he had gone anywhere else, we wouldn't have had to struggle with this decision. Frank would've been a one-and-done player with no doubt."

Some of these people inclufing Frank's father are delusional. Frank is a good player but is a 6'3" SG at this time Lots of guys like that

[BigZ]

I'm not a moderator but can we stop having threads saying a player is returning or leaving unless the player or Duke confirms. We had two threads saying Jackson was returning but neither him or Duke was the source

[Green Wave Dukie]

Sheesh indeed. Good thing Grayson is staying...

Yeah, I'm with you Newton.

I know it is being discussed on another thread, but who would be the captain(s) if Grayson had decided to leave, and if in fact Frank does go. I've sure got no good answer.

[arnie]

Some of these people inclufing Frank's father are delusional. Frank is a good player but is a 6'3" SG at this time Lots of guys like that
This news will be even harder to take if Frank stays in and Tony Bradley comes back.

[dukelifer]

The kid wants to play in the NBA. He will get evaluated. If he dominates- he will get drafted- if he shows too many weaknesses - he won't. The key is the agent hiring which allows him to return or not. He is probably a second rounder at this point. The evaluation will likely say that he needs to work on his ball handling. From the perspective of his future - it is a smart move.

[Devilwin]

Hate this news. Appears maybe I was right with my "rumor", but still will not withdraw my apology on jumping the gun. And I vow never to watch another NBA game..Curse them!!!!!!!!!!!:mad:

[Natty_B]

Looks like maybe we owe the rando that runs ACCSports.com an apology. In '15 8 was enough to win it all. This spring 8 is enough already.

[Dr. Rosenrosen]

Will someone please wake me in June when all the dust has settled? Then I can see who is on our squad and prepare to cheer for them.

[lotusland]

I wonder why more players don't test the waters. From a players point of view what is there to lose?

With that said, Frank seemingly made the decision late while Duvall may have cryptically signaled he's leaning toward Duke (claiming not to have visited Duke when it seems he did) so I wonder if the two are related. Seems Frank's path to the NBA is at PG and Duvall presumably would move in front of Frank at lead guard. Of course Grayson's path is combo guard and he was the more effective PG last year so Frank may not get much PG burn either with or without Duvall.

[stingy]

Hmmmmmm!
"Frank has always wanted to be in the NBA," his father, Al, told The Tribune in a phone interview. "He went to Duke for a variety of reasons, and we absolutely made the right decision. If he had gone anywhere else, we wouldn't have had to struggle with this decision. Frank would've been a one-and-done player with no doubt."

At first I read his dad's comment as dissing us for not playing him enough to be a one and done but then the fact that he says "we made the right decision" and that it was a struggle makes me interpret it as he really likes Duke and while he really wants to be in the NBA, it would be hard for him to leave his coaches and teammates etc. and I agree that it doesn't hurt for him to get evaluated. I didn't fault Luke for leaving at all, but if Frank isn't going to be a first rounder and still leaves I'll be bummed.

[budwom]

I wonder why more players don't test the waters. From a players point of view what is there to lose?

With that said, Frank seemingly made the decision late while Duvall may have cryptically signaled he's leaning toward Duke (claiming not to have visited Duke when it seems he did) so I wonder if the two are related. Seems Frank's path to the NBA is at PG and Duvall presumably would move in front of Frank at lead guard. Of course Grayson's path is combo guard and he was the more effective PG last year so Frank may not get much PG burn either with or without Duvall.

I agree that Duval coming to Duke as PG would not help us in retaining Frank, though I think he'd still play a lot...and I'm sure K would tell him about Duhon/Williams, etc. The perils of the OAD era...

[miramar]

Hmmmmmm!
"Frank has always wanted to be in the NBA," his father, Al, told The Tribune in a phone interview. "He went to Duke for a variety of reasons, and we absolutely made the right decision. If he had gone anywhere else, we wouldn't have had to struggle with this decision. Frank would've been a one-and-done player with no doubt."

Every decision is different, but I'm glad that the family is pro-Duke, unlike the situation we had last year with Derrick Thornton. I think in both cases the best decision is/was to return for their sophomore season, but at least this way Frank can weigh his options in a positive and productive fashion.

I hope he stays, has a great year on and off the court, and enters the draft when he is a lock as a first-rounder.

[miramar]

This is what next year's team looks like according to the moderators, which excludes Frank for the moment as well as any additional recruits:

Grayson Allen
Javin DeLaurier
Marques Bolden
Antonio Vrankovic
Jack White
Justin Robinson
Wendell Carter
Gary Trent
Alex O’ Connell

If this is the team, what would the starting five look like, other than Grayson and Marques (and presumably Wendell Carter and Gary Trent)?

I really don't know much about the rest of the team except that Javin appears to be an exceptional athlete, although I have only seen him in warm ups. Is Justin Robinson the next late bloomer in the family?

PS. Thank you even more than before, Grayson.

[75Crazie]

And I vow never to watch another NBA game..Curse them!!!!!!!!!!!:mad:
I do not understand why you are blaming the NBA; I do not blame them one bit. They are a business and they have a ready supply of colleges that are willing to prostitute themselves to serve as a training ground for their future employees, all without having to spend a cent to maintain that proving ground. I cannot blame the athletes, either; they are not the ones that evolved the rule that you have to "attend" one year of college "classes" in order to be considered eligible for NBA employment. The system is what it is, we have all been complicit in the manner in which the system is evolved, and we are now paying the price for that. We are way beyond the point where it is feasible to create a parallel farm system (akin to baseball, and something much more relevant than the ridiculous D league) to give pedigree players an alternative for advancement that does not involve attendance in college classes; why should that happen when the NBA has an existing farm system it does not have to maintain and colleges get so much public recognition for their athletic programs that are so divorced from their primary purpose?

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

I do not understand why you are blaming the NBA; I do not blame them one bit. They are a business and they have a ready supply of colleges that are willing to prostitute themselves to serve as a training ground for their future employees, all without having to spend a cent to maintain that proving ground. I cannot blame the athletes, either; they are not the ones that evolved the rule that you have to "attend" one year of college "classes" in order to be considered eligible for NBA employment. The system is what it is, we have all been complicit in the manner in which the system is evolved, and we are now paying the price for that. We are way beyond the point where it is feasible to create a parallel farm system (akin to baseball, and something much more relevant than the ridiculous D league) to give pedigree players an alternative for advancement that does not involve attendance in college classes; why should that happen when the NBA has an existing farm system it does not have to maintain and colleges get so much public recognition for their athletic programs that are so divorced from their primary purpose?

True. If you want to blame someone for the current system, blame TV watchers, ie you and me. This is all about money, and the money comes from ESPN. ESPN has money to spend because we watch and advertisers pay huge sums.
ESPN pays NBA/NCAA huge sums because they make millions on the games and want to keep the rights. The colleges make piles of money off the players for a year, then cut them free to make piles of money in the NBA.

It is a strange system that has evolved, but as long as the bottom lines are SOOOO big, ain't nothing gonna change.

Anyways, good luck, Frank. I hope you have good people advising you.

[scottdude8]

How can you blame Gary Parrish?

This was his entire tweet:



I wrote at the time that his tweet was not definitive enough (nor specific enough) for Duke fans to assume that Frank wouldn't declare for the draft (without an agent).

Maybe this is just the (perhaps unfair) high standards I try to hold journalists to. But IMHO Parish shouldn't have even tweeted that if his source left any doubt in his mind about Frank's status. Instead he should've done everything he could to get something else confirming that source's story. If he couldn't, or if he could but there was still doubt, he shouldn't have reported it.

Again, maybe that's an unfair standard. But a lot of journalists have gotten caught up in the era of Twitter by reporting things with only one unsubstantiated source or whatnot just to be "FIRST!". It seems to be like that's what happened here, although I obviously could be wrong as I don't know what happened behind the scenes. Journalists need to be held to a higher standard than a random guy who "heard something from someone", IMHO. Hence my frustration.

[dakkon74]

.............ESPN has money to spend because we watch and advertisers pay huge sums..........

Actually, much of ESPNs money comes from the cable tv bundle. Millions of people like my parents pay about $7 of their cable bill monthly for the channel, even though they never once watch it.

[CrazyNotCrazie]

As a Duke fan I am not thrilled about this, but I think Frank is smart to do it. Other than injury, which could happen anywhere, what does he have to lose. He eventually wants to be a pro. He will spend a month working out against good players and receive feedback regarding what he needs to work on (I am assuming he will definitely be invited to the combine? If not, there is his feedback).

To butcher my least favorite analogy, it is like a freshman computer science major being invited to show her coding skills to Google for a few days then being told whether they might want to give her a job and what she needs to work on to improve her odds for the future. Seems like a smart thing to do.

[lotusland]

Actually, much of ESPNs money comes from the cable tv bundle. Millions of people like my parents pay about $7 of their cable bill monthly for the channel, even though they never once watch it.

And this model is crumbling but ironically not because cable subscribers that are the little old ladies who don't watch sports. Millennials and others cutting the cord is/will be the demise. I don't blame the NBA but I do wonder that the NCAA has been the target of lawsuits instead of the NBA. One is a volunteer, non profit amateur league while the other is a business which denies qualified applicants the right to earn a living because they don't trust their management to make wise decisions.

[azzefkram]

I hope Frank comes back but if not best of luck in the NBA and thank you for a great freshman season.

[Saratoga2]

As a Duke fan I am not thrilled about this, but I think Frank is smart to do it. Other than injury, which could happen anywhere, what does he have to lose. He eventually wants to be a pro. He will spend a month working out against good players and receive feedback regarding what he needs to work on (I am assuming he will definitely be invited to the combine? If not, there is his feedback).

To butcher my least favorite analogy, it is like a freshman computer science major being invited to show her coding skills to Google for a few days then being told whether they might want to give her a job and what she needs to work on to improve her odds for the future. Seems like a smart thing to do.

I would expect his skills will have to apply to the PG position at the next level. His physical attributes seem sufficient but to me he is unready for the next step. The experience will tell him one way or the other.

[FadedTackyShirt]

I agree that Duval coming to Duke as PG would not help us in retaining Frank, though I think he'd still play a lot...and I'm sure K would tell him about Duhon/Williams, etc. The perils of the OAD era...

Late recruitment of Mark Smith, Grayson returning, Duval's probability of coming, and Frank's timing all now make reasonable sense in context.

Bolden not exploring the draft, Luke's declaring (with K's blessing) and planning to hire an agent, and Grayson not even exploring the draft would seem to indicate K's NBA networking and honest/candid feedback to his players. Sincerely hope there's been mutual trust and honest feedback between K and the Jacksons in recent weeks.

Jeter's not going to find a better hoops/academic combo than Duke, but he wants to play. Maryland fits Obi's near term goals better than Duke. If Frank gets (multiple) assurances that he's a first round pick, he's probably gone. Not celebrating any of these developments, but also not my life, values, or ambitions either.

[Natty_B]

It's ok to say this one is weird right? The late late announcement, the contrary info from national reporters (and yes I get it's the the twitter era but guys at CBS are kinda legit), that the staff was all out recruiting other players and the fact this wasn't rolled out on Duke social media with the branding and hashtags. Six non-seniors leaving is a lot and maybe it's hyperbole to say the program is in dissary but idk maybe you could say it.

[richardjackson199]

It's ok to say this one is weird right? The late late announcement, the contrary info from national reporters (and yes I get it's the the twitter era but guys at CBS are kinda legit), that the staff was all out recruiting other players and the fact this wasn't rolled out on Duke social media with the branding and hashtags. Six non-seniors leaving is a lot and maybe it's hyperbole to say the program is in dissary but idk maybe you could say it.

Agreed - unless I'm missing something, this announcement was not made by Duke with supportive comments from our coaches. Maybe that is because he hasn't decided what he is going to do yet. But at Duke with K's NBA connections and feedback, most guys just don't decide to test the waters like this at the last minute. Although maybe it does make more sense for Frank to get more feedback. He is quite athletic, shoots well, is fast, has great character, and has plenty of potential. His dad made it clear his goal was to be OAD, so this keeps that option quite open and explores it to its fullest. Just hopefully the Jacksons have been listening and will continue to listen to good advisors.

And I'm still blown away that the ACCSports.com UNC guy had better information than Gary Parrish. Hopefully our coaches had better information, and this didn't come as a shock to them while out recruiting.

[weezie]

Color me taken aback, even if just a little bit. Even more surprised that Grayson is now staying.

Other than that, I got nuthin'.

[4Gen]

I don't post often because of the amazing hoops knowledge of the regulars. I am a grad and big fan. Having said that, my enthusiasm slowly wanes. I take zero offense at a player's decision, but old men should recognize we need to place less life emphasis on a failing model.

[richardjackson199]

It's ok to say this one is weird right? The late late announcement, the contrary info from national reporters (and yes I get it's the the twitter era but guys at CBS are kinda legit), that the staff was all out recruiting other players and the fact this wasn't rolled out on Duke social media with the branding and hashtags. Six non-seniors leaving is a lot and maybe it's hyperbole to say the program is in dissary but idk maybe you could say it.

Maybe disarray would be hyperbole. But it does feel somewhat like after the 99 year in some ways. Obviously very different eras and that team was wildly successful until losing to UConn in the title game. But unexpectedly losing Avery and Maggette along with Brand and the seniors was tough then. The guys we brought in 2000 turned out to be pretty good though, and we were ok. That could be true again this year.

[jipops]

I think this is a great and intelligent move on Frank's part. He's a kid with a load of upside looking into a league that values upside, athleticism and shooting. I'm of the opinion that this is purely for evaluation and he'll be back, but that's only based on what the draft boards say.

He's likely not a first rounder this year and would have to make a roster or spend time in D-league. Next year he is almost definitely a first rounder. Seems like there is just a little more risk to come out this year. But no way anyone could fault him for gathering info.

[Dr. Rosenrosen]

I think this is a great and intelligent move on Frank's part. He's a kid with a load of upside looking into a league that values upside, athleticism and shooting. I'm of the opinion that this is purely for evaluation and he'll be back, but that's only based on what the draft boards say.

He's likely not a first rounder this year and would have to make a roster or spend time in D-league. Next year he is almost definitely a first rounder. Seems like there is just a little more risk to come out this year. But no way anyone could fault him for gathering info.
Yes. The rules were changed to allow kids to go through this process. So if you have real NBA potential and it's your goal, why wouldn't you take advantage? It's probably the right thing to do to at least get the helpful feedback from scouts. I don't begrudge him even it makes things a bit murky for next year.

[Edouble]

Agreed - unless I'm missing something, this announcement was not made by Duke with supportive comments from our coaches. Maybe that is because he hasn't decided what he is going to do yet. But at Duke with K's NBA connections and feedback, most guys just don't decide to test the waters like this at the last minute. Although maybe it does make more sense for Frank to get more feedback. He is quite athletic, shoots well, is fast, has great character, and has plenty of potential. His dad made it clear his goal was to be OAD, so this keeps that option quite open and explores it to its fullest. Just hopefully the Jacksons have been listening and will continue to listen to good advisors.

And I'm still blown away that the ACCSports.com UNC guy had better information than Gary Parrish. Hopefully our coaches had better information, and this didn't come as a shock to them while out recruiting.

Agree that the announcement was made late. Very late. If Frank's goal was to be OAD all along, why announce now? Even if he is "testing the waters", it seems odd to wait until so late in the game. I will say that a picture starts to form in my head concerning this late announcement and conflicting reports of Duval's appearance on campus last week. Others have alluded to this as well.

I'd be shocked to see Frank have a successful NBA career if he leaves Duke now. I would also be surprised to see him pull out of the draft.

[FadedTackyShirt]

It's ok to say this one is weird right? The late late announcement, the contrary info from national reporters (and yes I get it's the the twitter era but guys at CBS are kinda legit), that the staff was all out recruiting other players and the fact this wasn't rolled out on Duke social media with the branding and hashtags. Six non-seniors leaving is a lot and maybe it's hyperbole to say the program is in dissary but idk maybe you could say it.

Technically, it's only 4 non-seniors. Obi's academically a senior and Frank hasn't signed with an agent. Obi's not likely a impact rotation player in surly Turtleville, but there would be an epic wankerstorm if/when a projected rotation player transfers to an ACC school as a grad student.

Timing and lack of blessing doesn't look good, but K wasn't caught flat footed either. Mark Smith would have never entered the picture if K had complete confidence at least two of Grayson, Frank, and Duval would be on the 2018 team.

Hopefully Smith is an unnecessary hedge by K, but a prolonged waiting period could end in a mess if Frank stays in the draft and both Duval and Smith go elsewhere.

[Devilwin]

I do not understand why you are blaming the NBA; I do not blame them one bit. They are a business and they have a ready supply of colleges that are willing to prostitute themselves to serve as a training ground for their future employees, all without having to spend a cent to maintain that proving ground. I cannot blame the athletes, either; they are not the ones that evolved the rule that you have to "attend" one year of college "classes" in order to be considered eligible for NBA employment. The system is what it is, we have all been complicit in the manner in which the system is evolved, and we are now paying the price for that. We are way beyond the point where it is feasible to create a parallel farm system (akin to baseball, and something much more relevant than the ridiculous D league) to give pedigree players an alternative for advancement that does not involve attendance in college classes; why should that happen when the NBA has an existing farm system it does not have to maintain and colleges get so much public recognition for their athletic programs that are so divorced from their primary purpose?

You answered your own question. Just because they are a business does not exclude them from critique. There's got to be a better way than this. If the NFL can do it, so can the NBA. I was once blasted here on the forum for saying our team was turning to ashes. How's that quote look now?

[rsvman]

I don't have a problem with him going to test the waters; I have a problem with the very last second decision to go test the waters.
Why not tell us a week ago that you're going to declare but without an agent?

[Wander]

I was once blasted here on the forum for saying our team was turning to ashes. How's that quote look now?

Unlike most people here, I think next year is going to be a big down year for us, but we are still currently one of the top 3 programs in the country (Kentucky and Kansas being the other two).

[Dr. Rosenrosen]

I don't have a problem with him going to test the waters; I have a problem with the very last second decision to go test the waters.
Why not tell us a week ago that you're going to declare but without an agent?
Maybe it wasn't last minute inside the program but it has the appearance of being last minute to those of us outside of the program. Very hard to say. It does feel a bit different and that's making many of us uncomfortable. I'll reserve all judgement until we know more.

[Troublemaker]

Unlike most people here, I think next year is going to be a big down year for us, but we are still currently one of the top 3 programs in the country (Kentucky and Kansas being the other two).

If Frank returns and Duval comes, I don't see a "big down year" at all. But we can debate that once the roster is finalized, which might not be for another month now.


Maybe this is just the (perhaps unfair) high standards I try to hold journalists to. But IMHO Parish shouldn't have even tweeted that if his source left any doubt in his mind about Frank's status. Instead he should've done everything he could to get something else confirming that source's story. If he couldn't, or if he could but there was still doubt, he shouldn't have reported it.

Again, maybe that's an unfair standard. But a lot of journalists have gotten caught up in the era of Twitter by reporting things with only one unsubstantiated source or whatnot just to be "FIRST!". It seems to be like that's what happened here, although I obviously could be wrong as I don't know what happened behind the scenes. Journalists need to be held to a higher standard than a random guy who "heard something from someone", IMHO. Hence my frustration.

Parrish's tweet is still 100% accurate if Frank's plan is to return and if he just wants to go through the process to get additional feedback and experience the process.

[bob blue devil]

I was once blasted here on the forum for saying our team was turning to ashes. How's that quote look now?

...still pretty absurd if you ask me.

[WakeDevil]

And this model is crumbling but ironically not because cable subscribers that are the little old ladies who don't watch sports. Millennials and others cutting the cord is/will be the demise. I don't blame the NBA but I do wonder that the NCAA has been the target of lawsuits instead of the NBA. One is a volunteer, non profit amateur league while the other is a business which denies qualified applicants the right to earn a living because they don't trust their management to make wise decisions.

Nobody is stopping these players from making a living. Whether the pro leagues' rules, which have been upheld by the courts, accord with our conceptions of justice and fair play is another matter.

[amat1129]

I hope he makes the best decision possible

[richardjackson199]

If Frank returns and Duval comes, I don't see a "big down year" at all. But we can debate that once the roster is finalized, which might not be for another month now.



Parrish's tweet is still 100% accurate if Frank's plan is to return and if he just wants to go through the process to get additional feedback and experience the process.

Even if Frank stays in, we still could be pretty good next year, depending on who we get.

Let's say for example we start Duval, Grayson, Trent/Knox, Carter, and Bolden/Bamba. Add White, Vrank, and DeLaurier for depth and that is an outstanding 10 man rotation. Even if we miss on Bamba and Knox, it's a pretty good, competitive team.

In the context of Frank's father's comments, I think Parrish was wrong. Frank's dad sounded like this was a tough decision for him because they love Duke, but they decided to follow his dream of being OAD and playing in the NBA now. He hasn't gone all in yet with an agent. But to me, it looks like more than just experiencing the process. I'm assuming he's gone, and I hope to be pleasantly surprised if he returns.

[79-77]

Well, as I mentioned previously, if it seems like someone might turn pro -- he usually does.

I'd be curious to see any data that anyone has about how often someone declares for the draft, doesn't hire an agent, and then returns to school. I'd expect the player returns to school well under half the time. So I think the most likely outcome is that Frank is gone.

I wouldn't be surprised if he isn't picked in the 1st round, but I think he'll develop into a good NBA player. He was terrific down the stretch for Duke this year. He's also got terrific athleticism, an excellent jumper and a ton of confidence. I'd guess he's pretty coachable too.

For those who also like the NBA and are of a certain age: he reminds me of former Knick John Starks. Similar size, stride, confidence and explosiveness.

Best of luck to you, Frank. Don't hesitate to change your mind, but if you don't, don't be a stranger.

[dukelifer]

Well, as I mentioned previously, if it seems like someone might turn pro -- he usually does.

I'd be curious to see any data that anyone has about how often someone declares for the draft, doesn't hire an agent, and then returns to school. I'd expect the player returns to school well under half the time. So I think the most likely outcome is that Frank is gone.

I wouldn't be surprised if he isn't picked in the 1st round, but I think he'll develop into a good NBA player. He was terrific down the stretch for Duke this year. He's also got terrific athleticism, an excellent jumper and a ton of confidence. I'd guess he's pretty coachable too.

For those who also like the NBA and are of a certain age: he reminds me of former Knick John Starks. Similar size, stride, confidence and explosiveness.

Best of luck to you, Frank. Don't hesitate to change your mind, but if you don't, don't be a stranger.
Didn't ACC player of the year Justin Jackson come back and didn't they just change the rules about coming back. Not sure we have enough data to draw conclusions.

[amat1129]

Frank Jackson should stay in the draft if he gets feedback that he's going to get drafted. If he doesn't get that feedback he should return to Duke.

[Hancock 4 Duke]

There's little reasoning for a player not to test the waters and get some feedback from the NBA, but I'm sure that's been discussed. I think Frank stays another year for sure.

[Olympic Fan]

Well, as I mentioned previously, if it seems like someone might turn pro -- he usually does.

I'd be curious to see any data that anyone has about how often someone declares for the draft, doesn't hire an agent, and then returns to school. I'd expect the player returns to school well under half the time. So I think the most likely outcome is that Frank is gone.

I wouldn't be surprised if he isn't picked in the 1st round, but I think he'll develop into a good NBA player. He was terrific down the stretch for Duke this year. He's also got terrific athleticism, an excellent jumper and a ton of confidence. I'd guess he's pretty coachable too.

For those who also like the NBA and are of a certain age: he reminds me of former Knick John Starks. Similar size, stride, confidence and explosiveness.

Best of luck to you, Frank. Don't hesitate to change your mind, but if you don't, don't be a stranger.

I can't give you data, but they changed the rules to make it easier for kids "to test the waters" than it used to be. Before, the window to declare and withdraw was too small -- there was not really time for players to work out for teams or participate in the pre-draft camp or get any real feedback before they had to withdraw their names. Plus, under the old rules, kids could only declare once. Now a player can declare without penalty as many times as he likes. He has almost two months to explore his NBA options before he must decide to return.

A year ago, more than half of the players who declared for the draft pulled out and returned to school. Among that group were:

Justin Jackson, UNC
Joel Berry, UNC
Jaron Blossomgame, Clemson
Dwayne Bacon, FSU (he was only in about 48 hours)
Malik-Abdul Abu, N.C. State
BeeJay Anya, N.C. State

There may have been more from the ACC, but that's off the top of my head.

I agree that Duke players do not usually put their names in and withdraw, but the new rules have only been in play two years (this is the second year). That's a pretty small sample size.

I just hope Frank makes the smart decision -- if he gets a first round guarantee, he should go ... if not, then he needs to return to Duke.

[SkyBrickey]

Unlike most people here, I think next year is going to be a big down year for us, but we are still currently one of the top 3 programs in the country (Kentucky and Kansas being the other two).

Sorry, but a starting lineup of Duval, Allen, Trent, Carter and Bolden will be one of the most talented in the country. Hate to see Jackson leaving but with or without him, and with or without Knox, we should be very, very good by the end of next season if we can stay healthy. Now, if we don't get Duval, I think the picture is a lot more concerning....

[BigZ]

I'm worried that K would not use his bench in that situation.

[CDu]

Well, if Duval wasn't a priority before, he certainly is now. We haven't typically had "water testers", so I wonder if he is going but keeping his options open or just truly testing the waters. Either way, hopefully his decision (whatever it is) works out best for him.

I very much like a backcourt rotation of Duval, Jackson, Allen, and Trent. I would be very nervous about a backcourt of Allen, Trent, White, and O'Connell.

[lotusland]

I don't do Twitter but copied this from IC:

Jeff Goodman tweet:
Frank Jackson's decision to return to Duke could well hinge whether Trevon Duval chooses Blue Devils. Duval arguably top PG in frosh class.

Not a good trade for Duke imo if true. I would drop Duvall like a hot potato for 1 more year of Jackson if that's the bargain.

[Devilwin]

...still pretty absurd if you ask me.

Ok, then let them prove me wrong......

[wavedukefan70s]

I don't do Twitter but copied this from IC:

Jeff Goodman tweet:
Frank Jackson's decision to return to Duke could well hinge whether Trevon Duval chooses Blue Devils. Duval arguably top PG in frosh class.

Not a good trade for Duke imo if true. I would drop Duvall like a hot potato for 1 more year of Jackson if that's the bargain.

I agree to a extent.id love to have both though.

[gep]

Maybe all Frank is doing is to get a handle of where he stands with respect to the NBA... like what he needs to improve on, what he should work on next year, etc at Duke. Like a "free" post-frosh/pre-soph evaluation. So not hire an agent, since he really intends to return to Duke. But, if by some chance he is first-round, then he can go. To me, seems like a good deal for Frank.

[richardjackson199]

I don't do Twitter but copied this from IC:

Jeff Goodman tweet:
Frank Jackson's decision to return to Duke could well hinge whether Trevon Duval chooses Blue Devils. Duval arguably top PG in frosh class.

Not a good trade for Duke imo if true. I would drop Duvall like a hot potato for 1 more year of Jackson if that's the bargain.

It's a reasonable opinion and I respect it. I disagree. I hope Duke recruits Duval 100% all-in regardless. Just my opinion, but I'd tell Frank that he's welcome back if he wants and expected to have an incredible year next year earning a likely first round draft contract in a less-loaded draft. Duke would be a better team IMO if we have a true point guard. Duval is not only a true point guard, he is the best one in the class and a top 5 player in the class.

Duke does not need to feel manipulated by Frank's desire to develop his point guard skills. Duke needs to do what is best for Duke. We just gave Frank a year to develop his point guard skills on a team loaded with talent. Frank developed nicely, but Duke struggled to break down defenses and had too many turnovers without a true point.

Duke has had plenty of success in the past playing line-ups with multiple guards with point guard skills. Duhon-JWill and Tyus-Cook are well documented. If Goodman's tweet is true, the difference is that Cook and J-Will as leaders gladly moved over to off guard and continued to develop and thrive. Cook made the NBA and won a National Championship. Williams was a top 2 pick in the draft and won a National Championship.

Duval seems interested in Duke, and I hope we welcome him with open arms. If Frank wants, I hope we also welcome him back with open arms. Could be an outstanding team, but IMO Duke will be better with Duval running the primary point. I think Frank thrives best when he focuses on being a scorer.

[Troublemaker]

I don't do Twitter but copied this from IC:

Jeff Goodman tweet:
Frank Jackson's decision to return to Duke could well hinge whether Trevon Duval chooses Blue Devils. Duval arguably top PG in frosh class.

Not a good trade for Duke imo if true. I would drop Duvall like a hot potato for 1 more year of Jackson if that's the bargain.

I want the player and family that wants Duke next year. At this point, if it's the Duvals, then give me the Duvals.

(Note: I'd love to have both, of course).

[budwom]

Goodman's tweet is hardly new news...Frank wants to be a PG in the NBA, and Duval would be coming in as the odds on favorite to start at PG.
Hopefully K can convince Frank that he'll get plenty of ballhandling opportunities even with Duval around.

[lotusland]

It's a reasonable opinion and I respect it. I disagree. I hope Duke recruits Duval 100% all-in regardless. Just my opinion, but I'd tell Frank that he's welcome back if he wants and expected to have an incredible year next year earning a likely first round draft contract in a less-loaded draft. Duke would be a better team IMO if we have a true point guard. Duval is not only a true point guard, he is the best one in the class and a top 5 player in the class.

Duke does not need to feel manipulated by Frank's desire to develop his point guard skills. Duke needs to do what is best for Duke. We just gave Frank a year to develop his point guard skills on a team loaded with talent. Frank developed nicely, but Duke struggled to break down defenses and had too many turnovers without a true point.

Duke has had plenty of success in the past playing line-ups with multiple guards with point guard skills. Duhon-JWill and Tyus-Cook are well documented. If Goodman's tweet is true, the difference is that Cook and J-Will as leaders gladly moved over to off guard and continued to develop and thrive. Cook made the NBA and won a National Championship. Williams was a top 2 pick in the draft and won a National Championship.

Duval seems interested in Duke, and I hope we welcome him with open arms. If Frank wants, I hope we also welcome him back with open arms. Could be an outstanding team, but IMO Duke will be better with Duval running the primary point. I think Frank thrives best when he focuses on being a scorer.

Too late to jump on the high horse imo. Duval played at 4 schools in 4 years of HS and finished up at a school considered a "basketball factory". There was also some discussion earlier as to whether NCAA would clear him to play. Not coincidentally, overseas is a legit option he is considering. Furthermore he's been very vocal about going pro asap and he's waiting on all the dominos to fall to determine the best spot to land for his NBA career to commit. I don't say this to trash Duval but rather to point out that recruiting has become transactional. Duke is concerned with who helps them win more games and our players and recruits are often most concerned with the team (not school) that best advances their NBA aspirations. Imo Jackson is the better option of the two.

[Devilwin]

Grayson and Frank and a bevy of untried players. Sounds better than Grayson and a bevy of untried players. Carter and Trent are very talented players, but neither has played a minute of college ball. If we get Duval and Knox, and maybe Bamba, I'll feel better, but again, they are untested in the college ranks. Personally, I think Frank will return. And we certainly need him to. Hopefully, Bolden develops into the rim protector we need, and the frosh pan out. These things all happen, we can be contenders.

[bob blue devil]

Ok, then let them prove me wrong...

please define "turning to ashes" - might as well understand what they will be proving wrong.

[dukelifer]

Sorry, but a starting lineup of Duval, Allen, Trent, Carter and Bolden will be one of the most talented in the country. Hate to see Jackson leaving but with or without him, and with or without Knox, we should be very, very good by the end of next season if we can stay healthy. Now, if we don't get Duval, I think the picture is a lot more concerning...

That team has great potential but little/no experience playing together. They will struggle against teams that play great team D and they will struggle developing a defensive identity. Duke will take their lumps early next year against experienced teams- but they will get better as the year progresses. That is the most likely outcome. They will be fun to watch but very raw as a team. This year's Duke team would beat that team easily.

[duketaylor]

That team has great potential but little/no experience playing together. They will struggle against teams that play great team D and they will struggle developing a defensive identity. Duke will take their lumps early next year against experienced teams- but they will get better as the year progresses. That is the most likely outcome. They will be fun to watch but very raw as a team. This year's Duke team would beat that team easily.

"Duke will take their lumps early next year against experienced teams." Please expound, which teams on our schedule will be these teams? Many will be highly inexperienced.

[Natty_B]

"Duke will take their lumps early next year against experienced teams." Please expound, which teams on our schedule will be these teams? Many will be highly inexperienced.

Michigan State in the champions classic.

[Natty_B]

Still not announced on social media. Usually that happens very quickly.

[MChambers]

Michigan State in the champions classic.

They'll be one of the best teams in the country, so I'd be surprised if Duke didn't struggle against them. Luckily, there aren't many teams that are very talented and very experienced.

[dukelifer]

"Duke will take their lumps early next year against experienced teams." Please expound, which teams on our schedule will be these teams? Many will be highly inexperienced.

All depends who stays in the draft and who doesn't. If UNC gets Bradley back- they will have experience. Same with Louisville. Not sure who is on the schedule but I have a hard time believing that the majority of the teams will have starters and a bench that will have equal or less game experience than Duke.

[atoomer0881]

Is it weird that there's still been no official statement from either Duke or from Frank regarding his decision?

[Dr. Rosenrosen]

Is it weird that there's still been no official statement from either Duke or from Frank regarding his decision?
No more weird than the first couple days of the Bolden gone/not-gone episode.

[Troublemaker]

Is it weird that there's still been no official statement from either Duke or from Frank regarding his decision?

I don't think so. I quickly looked through GoDuke's archive for the spring of 2012 (http://www.goduke.com/SportArchives.dbml?SPSID=22724&SPID=1845&DB_OEM_ID=4200&per_page=12&season=2011&spid=1845&page_num=2&page_view=show-min-list-view), and I didn't see an announcement for Mason testing the waters. There was an announcement for his return, though.

[Troublemaker]

That team has great potential but little/no experience playing together. They will struggle against teams that play great team D and they will struggle developing a defensive identity. Duke will take their lumps early next year against experienced teams- but they will get better as the year progresses. That is the most likely outcome. They will be fun to watch but very raw as a team. This year's Duke team would beat that team easily.

Quite unlikely, but I'd rather Duke's roster be finalized first before going in-depth. Next season's team, given health, will be better than this season's team.

[dukelifer]

Quite unlikely, but I'd rather Duke's roster be finalized first before going in-depth. Next season's team, given health, will be better than this season's team.

True we don't know the final roster but you are suggesting Frosh Duval (assuming he comes and Jackson leaves) > Kennard, Frosh Carter> Amile, Frosh Trent> Frosh Tatum. I will give you Soph Bolden> Frosh Bolden and Senior Allen> Junior Allen. And I am not sure who will surpass Jones on the defensive end. A lot depends on the development of the other guys but this year's team experience is > next year's experience. I don't see how next year's team is better but we shall see. It will nevertheless be an interesting team to see develop.

[Troublemaker]

True we don't know the final roster but you are suggesting Frosh Duval (assuming he comes and Jackson leaves) > Kennard, Frosh Carter> Amile, Frosh Trent> Frosh Tatum. I will give you Soph Bolden> Frosh Bolden and Senior Allen> Junior Allen. And I am not sure who will surpass Jones on the defensive end. A lot depends on the development of the other guys but this year's team experience is > next year's experience. I don't see how next year's team is better but we shall see. It will nevertheless be an interesting team to see develop.

Yes, I'm suggesting something like that, and additionally, I'm expecting Frank Jackson to still be on the team. And maybe Kevin Knox as well.

We're going to have more and better size on the inside, and we're going to have better quickness on the perimeter.

If you like the player-by-player comparisons, next season's team will win those, too. Easily.

But, again, let's wait for the finalized roster before diving too deep.

[CDu]

I don't think so. I quickly looked through GoDuke's archive for the spring of 2012 (http://www.goduke.com/SportArchives.dbml?SPSID=22724&SPID=1845&DB_OEM_ID=4200&per_page=12&season=2011&spid=1845&page_num=2&page_view=show-min-list-view), and I didn't see an announcement for Mason testing the waters. There was an announcement for his return, though.

Because Plumlee didn't actually test the waters. He just decided to come back.

[JohnJ]

Yes, Mason did test the waters:

http://www.wralsportsfan.com/duke/story/10891641/

[lotusland]

Because Plumlee didn't actually test the waters. He just decided to come back.

Yes after some negotiation with Perky and some assurance by K as I recall.

[gep]

Yes, Mason did test the waters:

http://www.wralsportsfan.com/duke/story/10891641/

So... from this article...

****************
Until then, Plumlee is taking advantage of the NBA's free service to underclassmen where they can get feedback on their draft stock from 20 NBA office personnel. A confidential report is compiled and presented to the player and his family.

"You owe it to yourself to get quality information," said Perky. "The Duke staff has been very supportive to help Mason and he is in very good standing with the program."
****************

Could this be what Frank is doing? Getting "free" feedback service?:confused: (above bolded by me)

[Devilwin]

please define "turning to ashes" - might as well understand what they will be proving wrong.

Just a saying, Bob. Losing 8 players, and trying to replace them with untested people is going to be difficult. Most of us thought this past season was going to be special, then came injury after injury, Grayson's suspension, Coach K's surgery. If we get a couple more of the three recruits we're after, and Frank comes back, we can be very good, but I am not so sure if these things don't materialize..

[Troublemaker]

Just a saying, Bob. Losing 8 players, and trying to replace them with untested people is going to be difficult. Most of us thought this past season was going to be special, then came injury after injury, Grayson's suspension, Coach K's surgery. If we get a couple more of the three recruits we're after, and Frank comes back, we can be very good, but I am not so sure if these things don't materialize..

I agree with you if those things don't materialize. But if we get Duval and Frank, we'll be golden, imo.

[Troublemaker]

Yes, Mason did test the waters:

http://www.wralsportsfan.com/duke/story/10891641/

I think that article is wrong, though. Digging into it deeper, Mason never ended up doing the private workouts and the combine, which is what is commonly understood as "testing the waters." He did gather information.

[lotusland]

What's the advantage for Frank to come back and play the off guard for Duke vs.
The D league? Seems like fewer PGs in the draft next year but there also seems to be a downgrade for "potential" with every additional year in school. I get that it's a crap shoot if you're drafted outside the first round but what does another year at Duke as a 2 guard do to move Frank to the first round next year?

[sagegrouse]

What's the advantage for Frank to come back and play the off guard for Duke vs.
The D league? Seems like fewer PGs in the draft next year but there also seems to be a downgrade for "potential" with every additional year in school. I get that it's a crap shoot if you're drafted outside the first round but what does another year at Duke as a 2 guard do to move Frank to the first round next year?

What does a year in the "No D" league accomplish, except to allow him to play some kind of basketball as he gets older, stronger, and more coordinated?

[Troublemaker]

What's the advantage for Frank to come back and play the off guard for Duke vs.
The D league? Seems like fewer PGs in the draft next year but there also seems to be a downgrade for "potential" with every additional year in school. I get that it's a crap shoot if you're drafted outside the first round but what does another year at Duke as a 2 guard do to move Frank to the first round next year?

You're taking Goodman's tweet as gospel even though he's probably just making poop up.

That said, what would playing 40 mpg at Duke as the full-time PG do for him? Look, in any scenario, he's going to have show improved passing vision, a higher assist rate, and a better handle against pressure. He can certainly demonstrate those things as a 32 mpg starter at guard for Duke playing PG part-time. We're not going to like run Frank off screens like we did with Kennard. Frank's not that type of player. He's going to have the ball in his hands plenty.

In general, I would love it if Duke fans would stop acting like playing basketball at Duke is so awful, whether it's with Grayson's decision or Frank's decision. OF COURSE you choose Duke over the D-league. What are we talking about here?

[lotusland]

What does a year in the "No D" league accomplish, except to allow him to play some kind of basketball as he gets older, stronger, and more coordinated?

Ask Quin Cook, Seth Curry and Lance Thomas that question. I'm assuming that an NBA team that drafts Frank in the second round would have him playing PG in the D league. That's no guarantee but the question is how does another year at Duke playing 2 guard put him in better position next year?

I would argue that Frank may not have an NBA career so maybe it would be wise to advance toward a degree. I think Nolan is as good comp for Frank. He actually got to play significant minutes at PG for Duke, did pretty well and still didn't make it in the NBA. He has a degree and ended up in a pretty good spot anyway. I don't know if that argument is persuasive for today's kids with the OAD mentality though.

[flyingdutchdevil]

You're taking Goodman's tweet as gospel even though he's probably just making poop up.

That said, what would playing 40 mpg at Duke as the full-time PG do for him? Look, in any scenario, he's going to have show improved passing vision, a higher assist rate, and a better handle against pressure. He can certainly demonstrate those things as a 32 mpg starter at guard for Duke playing PG part-time.

Completely agree. Color me shocked that Jackson is even considering going to the NBA right now. His PG skills are completely inadequate right now. Someone who drafts Jackson will be looking for a Jerrod Bayless-type player (SG first, PG second), not a Jay Williams-type player (PG first, SG second).

Jackson can and should do whatever he wants, but I'm shocked a) he wants to go pro and b) he thinks Duval is that much of a threat to not return. I mean, we're talking guards at Duke, not big men. I get Bamba's hesitation to come to Duke given we have 2 capable big men (I assume there is hesitation), but I don't get Jackson's.

Also, let's do the math. Let's assume Knox doesn't come or comes and only plays the 4. That leaves 120 minutes at the 1-3 positions. Slot in Grayson for 35. Slot in Duval for 30. That leaves 55 minutes. Trent will take 25, if that. That leaves 30 min - at least - for Jackson. If Jackson comes back, he'll play ~32 minutes. And, given Duval isn't playing 40 min, whatever minutes Duval doesn't play Jackson will play at the 1.

[bob blue devil]

Just a saying, Bob. Losing 8 players, and trying to replace them with untested people is going to be difficult. Most of us thought this past season was going to be special, then came injury after injury, Grayson's suspension, Coach K's surgery. If we get a couple more of the three recruits we're after, and Frank comes back, we can be very good, but I am not so sure if these things don't materialize..

Thanks. Yes, I understand something "turning to ashes" is a saying. as i understand it, it means, "is destroyed or made useless". so when you say the team is "turning to ashes", to me that is quite a bit different than saying this upcoming season will be a down year. but i see you are now hedging even that watered down critique, noting that "we can be very good". i believe that even if we get unlucky with roster developments from here, we'll be a ranked team - hardly destroyed. so again, i ask, what is your definition of "turning to ashes" and, if it is similar to my definition, how to you justify arguing that the team is turning to ashes? here is your quote unadulterated to refresh your memory:




I was once blasted here on the forum for saying our team was turning to ashes. How's that quote look now?

[lotusland]

You're taking Goodman's tweet as gospel even though he's probably just making poop up.

That said, what would playing 40 mpg at Duke as the full-time PG do for him? Look, in any scenario, he's going to have show improved passing vision, a higher assist rate, and a better handle against pressure. He can certainly demonstrate those things as a 32 mpg starter at guard for Duke playing PG part-time. We're not going to like run Frank off screens like we did with Kennard. Frank's not that type of player. He's going to have the ball in his hands plenty.

In general, I would love it if Duke fans would stop acting like playing basketball at Duke is so awful, whether it's with Grayson's decision or Frank's decision. OF COURSE you choose Duke over the D-league. What are we talking about here?

Of course? But why? Playing 3-4 years and graduating doesn't seem to be in the plan. Why is 2-yrs at Duke that much better than 1? I know why I would value it but what does it do for Frank? Why is the D league worse? It's a year of unfettered basketball no?

[flyingdutchdevil]

Of course? But why? Playing 3-4 years and graduating doesn't seem to be in the plan. Why is 2-yrs at Duke that much better than 1? I know why I would value it but what does it do for Frank? Why is the D league worse? It's a year of unfettered basketball no?

It's a great question, but the issue is that the D-League is on the players who don't get much support. A second round-drafted player does not get resources positioned towards him in terms of training, nutrition, coaching, etc. A first round pick? Vastly different story. Teams have this player on the books for 2-4 years, and they want him to improve as he's the cheap, future pipeline. Hence, they get resources.

Hence, coming back to college for a year and getting drafted in the first round is much better for a player's long-term development than being in the D-League while you still had eligibility. Unfortunately - all the players listed above - LT, Seth, Quinn - had no more eligibility left. The only option was the D-League or Europe.

[Troublemaker]

Of course? But why? Playing 3-4 years and graduating doesn't seem to be in the plan. Why is 2-yrs at Duke that much better than 1? I know why I would value it but what does it do for Frank? Why is the D league worse? It's a year of unfettered basketball no?

Earn your way to first-round money while enjoying college for another year. Get one year closer to a degree. Perhaps be part of a Final Four team. Continue to strengthen relationships with teammates, coaches, and classmates.

The only players who should choose D-league over Duke are those that aren't suited to school. Frank has never struck me as one of those kids.

[ChillinDuke]

I think people are looking at Frank's "decision" to test the waters too much as a binary decision. It's also entirely possible that some fact pattern beyond our/his control has not been resolved yet. And he would prefer visibility/resolution into these facts before firmly coming back to Duke. Thus he has kept the door open by declaring.

Said differently, it doesn't hurt Frank Jackson in the least bit to declare with no agent. It can only help him. And so long as the coaching staff is well aware of the situation (which I'm sure they are) then it won't hurt Duke either. Look, he's not my favorite guy off the court, but there's a reason Pitino sent all of his potential pro players to test the waters instantly. Smart coaching move, IMO.

But what do I know?

- Chillin

[TKG]

A philosophical question about "testing the waters" and returning to school: whose responsibility is it for developing the perceived areas of weakness? The player or the program? If we use FJ as the player in question, let's say that the NBA types evaluating FJ suggest that he needs to develop his skills as a ball handler and a distributor. If Duval (or Smith) commits, how does FJ get the reps at PG? Is it K's responsibility to insure that FJ gets time at the point so FJ becomes more attractive to NBA teams? If it is not in the team's best interest for FJ to play PG, why play him at that position? If what we need from FJ is different from PG skills and that gives the team the best chance for success, why play FJ at any other position?

Again, I am not singling FJ, his is just the most recent example. I can understand how areas such as strength can be addressed. But what I am having difficulty wrapping my head around is where the responsibility lies with trying to improve a player's deficiency when others on the team might possess a superior skill set right now (again, Duval at PG vs. FJ at PG).

[Saratoga2]

Ask Quin Cook, Seth Curry and Lance Thomas that question. I'm assuming that an NBA team that drafts Frank in the second round would have him playing PG in the D league. That's no guarantee but the question is how does another year at Duke playing 2 guard put him in better position next year?

I would argue that Frank may not have an NBA career so maybe it would be wise to advance toward a degree. I think Nolan is as good comp for Frank. He actually got to play significant minutes at PG for Duke, did pretty well and still didn't make it in the NBA. He has a degree and ended up in a pretty good spot anyway. I don't know if that argument is persuasive for today's kids with the OAD mentality though.


Very clear thinking. There is tremendous competition for NBA positions and some of the marginal players but only a few make it. Getting a Duke degree and the network it provides is certainly a valuable thing when compared to the D league experience.

Now as far as playing for Duke another year, if Duval comes, it might allow him a role like Tyus and Quinn, with Frank taking Quinn's role. That is a second good ball handler and scorer who could profit by developing more PG instincts. Of course having Grayson around complicates the issue as Grayson will get big minutes and is also probably looking to develop his PG instincts for the NBA.

[lotusland]

It's a great question, but the issue is that the D-League is on the players who don't get much support. A second round-drafted player does not get resources positioned towards him in terms of training, nutrition, coaching, etc. A first round pick? Vastly different story. Teams have this player on the books for 2-4 years, and they want him to improve as he's the cheap, future pipeline. Hence, they get resources.

Hence, coming back to college for a year and getting drafted in the first round is much better for a player's long-term development than being in the D-League while you still had eligibility. Unfortunately - all the players listed above - LT, Seth, Quinn - had no more eligibility left. The only option was the D-League or Europe.

Not to beat the dead horse here but how does coming back for a 2nd year at 2 guard for Duke get Frank to the first round? He has shiny "potential" now. He would be expected to improve drastically. Anything less could actually be seen as a disappointment.

Recently on CBS' Eye on College Basketball podcast, Gary Parrish reiterated how UK recruits better get in and get out in 1-year or they will get recruited over and devalued in future drafts. I don't see any difference between Duke and Kentucky's recruiting philosophy these days.

[rtnorthrup]

Not to beat the dead horse here but how does coming back for a 2nd year at 2 guard for Duke get Frank to the first round? He has shiny "potential" now. He would be expected to improve drastically. Anything less could actually be seen as a disappointment.

Recently on CBS' Eye on College Basketball podcast, Gary Parrish reiterated how UK recruits better get in and get out in 1-year or they will get recruited over and devalued in future drafts. I don't see any difference between Duke and Kentucky's recruiting philosophy these days.

It's a great question, and as someone who enjoys both college and pro basketball, its a bit of a headscratcher. There seems to be a giant disconnect right now between what the NBA values, and what the college experience can provide. I don't think anyone has the solution right now.

[lotusland]

A philosophical question about "testing the waters" and returning to school: whose responsibility is it for developing the perceived areas of weakness? The player or the program? If we use FJ as the player in question, let's say that the NBA types evaluating FJ suggest that he needs to develop his skills as a ball handler and a distributor. If Duval (or Smith) commits, how does FJ get the reps at PG? Is it K's responsibility to insure that FJ gets time at the point so FJ becomes more attractive to NBA teams? If it is not in the team's best interest for FJ to play PG, why play him at that position? If what we need from FJ is different from PG skills and that gives the team the best chance for success, why play FJ at any other position?

Again, I am not singling FJ, his is just the most recent example. I can understand how areas such as strength can be addressed. But what I am having difficulty wrapping my head around is where the responsibility lies with trying to improve a player's deficiency when others on the team might possess a superior skill set right now (again, Duval at PG vs. FJ at PG).

I think that is the key question. Isn't getting players to the NBA better and faster the key argument in recruiting the top guys? If they don't see the path they won't come or won't stay. Why is it worse to "recruit" the guys you have the same as the guys you want? It's a one year commitment either way. What does Duvall need to achieve his NBA aspirations? What does Frank need? If they conflict, who is better for Duke?

[ChillinDuke]

Not to beat the dead horse here but how does coming back for a 2nd year at 2 guard for Duke get Frank to the first round? He has shiny "potential" now. He would be expected to improve drastically. Anything less could actually be seen as a disappointment.

Recently on CBS' Eye on College Basketball podcast, Gary Parrish reiterated how UK recruits better get in and get out in 1-year or they will get recruited over and devalued in future drafts. I don't see any difference between Duke and Kentucky's recruiting philosophy these days.

It's a good question. Unfortunately, like so many things, the answer is complicated and situation-based. The UK guys that get "recruited over" are the ones that didn't live up to their ranking. That's a real-life concern for them and a relative con of going to UK. For Duke and in particular Frank, he absolutely lived up to his ranking last year. If he comes back and plays more minutes, with better results, and receives recognition as one of Duke's top players next season, he will have "improved drastically" and likely be a sure-fire first rounder.

The generic situation at UK and the specific situation to Frank are not all that similar. And it likely is an even more complicated compare/contrast than I've done above - but it gets more into speculation as you go farther and farther down the thought process.

- Chillin

[Troublemaker]

Not to beat the dead horse here but how does coming back for a 2nd year at 2 guard for Duke get Frank to the first round? He has shiny "potential" now. He would be expected to improve drastically. Anything less could actually be seen as a disappointment.


Shallower draft. Show improvement in passing and ball-handling. Have a big year.

I don't agree with the Nolan Smith comparison, btw. Frank has better physical tools and will have a long career in the NBA.

[Owen Meany]

Jackson declaring has been mentioned for weeks now on other boards, so this was not necessarily as unexpected as it seems. Given that this came to pass, despite seeming surprising on the surface, lends some credibility to those previous reports. FWIW, some people were saying that Jackson's father really wanted him to declare. In the father's statement about choosing Duke and declaring he said "we" made a decision, etc. So Jackson's father is likely very involved in this (as a father,he should be) and reportedly feels strongly Jackson can make it (supported by his comments that if Frank was somewhere else he would be gone "no doubt"). So its possible Jackson could declare even if he is not a guaranteed first round pick.


This shows how very difficult (or impossible) it is to recruit highly regarded players who will not choose to leave after 1 year. Jackson has not shown the ability yet to play point guard in college, let alone the NBA. He doesn't have the size, unique skill, etc that makes him a certain high pick based on potential alone. So I would not have identified him as a OAD candidate. But if he chooses to leave he will be lumped with other players such as Okafor and Parker who were known OAD's coming in. And people will question why the staff doesn't have another player waiting to step in for Jackson (even if Duval comes). There is just a tremendous amount of luck involved now and the staff can not anticipate a kid like Jackson leaving after one year, or someone like Thornton leaving despite playing major minutes as a frosh and having a major role waiting the next year.

Since hearing that Jackson might declare, my concern (since I don't see him as a first round pick this year) has been that he might be more attractive to Utah (and their fan base) as both a home town kid and a rare Mormon NBA talent. He has added value in Utah that might make him worth a late 1st round pick. And Mr. Jackson specifically mentioned that Frank is a long-time Jazz fan and that they hope to get a work out with the team.

[Furniture]

Lots of guess work going on in this thread at the moment.

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

Just a question for the enthusiasts here... isn't the concept of testing the waters a positive? Shows that Frank is motivated, has big goals, and can get some top-tier feedback on where he needs to focus his off-season to attain his dream of playing in the NBA.

If the comments come back "you're ready for the big party now!" then congrats, Frank! You are about to become a very wealthy young man in the best basketball league in the universe. If it is more "work on the ball-handling skills and how you hedge on screens," then great, he can dial in on some needed work to be the best Duke player he can be.

Personally, I don't think Jackson is a first round pick, but no one pays me millions of dollars to make those sorts of decisions.

Am I going to be disappointed if Frank isn't at Duke next year? Of course. But, if he's NBA ready, who the hell am I to tell him he needs to attend his 200 level Psych class or whatever...

Honestly, my biggest concern for guys "testing the waters" is their ability to find a fair assessment. The kids that concern me are the ones who are reassured that they are NBA ready, but find themselves undrafted and with no more NCAA eligibility. Those are the sad stories.

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

Lots of guess work going on in this thread at the moment.

Well, it's the off-season and we are given precious few facts to work with.

[lotusland]

It's a good question. Unfortunately, like so many things, the answer is complicated and situation-based. The UK guys that get "recruited over" are the ones that didn't live up to their ranking. That's a real-life concern for them and a relative con of going to UK. For Duke and in particular Frank, he absolutely lived up to his ranking last year. If he comes back and plays more minutes, with better results, and receives recognition as one of Duke's top players next season, he will have "improved drastically" and likely be a sure-fire first rounder.

The generic situation at UK and the specific situation to Frank are not all that similar. And it likely is an even more complicated compare/contrast than I've done above - but it gets more into speculation as you go farther and farther down the thought process.

- Chillin

Yep I agree it's complicated and every situation is different. Joel Berry looks like a much more likely NBA backup PG to me than Frank and I would think Joel has almost no chance of improving his stock by returning yet he is. My guess is that Berry realizes he has a Quinn Cook shot but he may not make it so why enjoy another year, graduate, then give it a shot.

[moonpie23]

so, just to be clear.......there has been no statement from duke or frank regarding this, correct?

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

so, just to be clear....there has been no statement from duke or frank regarding this, correct?

I tend to take thread titles at their word, but that hasn't treated me too kindly over the last month, so I am not the one to ask.

[Newton_14]

so, just to be clear...there has been no statement from duke or frank regarding this, correct?

Correct and to be honest I find that really odd.

Also odd is that apparently the NBA does not put out an official list of players on the Early Entry list. Given the 4/23 deadline is a NBA deadline, you would think the NBA would put out such a list on 4/24 but apparently that makes too much sense or something.

So outside of the hometown paper, there are no other confirmations that Frank actually declared. The "piggy-back" tweets & what nots all point to the hometown paper as their "source"..

[ChillinDuke]

Yep I agree it's complicated and every situation is different. Joel Berry looks like a much more likely NBA backup PG to me than Frank and I would think Joel has almost no chance of improving his stock by returning yet he is. My guess is that Berry realizes he has a Quinn Cook shot but he may not make it so why enjoy another year, graduate, then give it a shot.

I think part of the issue is also that the whole OAD dynamic is still sorting itself out. The culture of it, the expectations, the resulting career paths - it's all still so new (relatively) so the inherent desire of humans to get things into a "formulaic" sort of construct is still playing itself out. For now, for right now, you still have kids that are uber-focused on getting to the NBA. We're only 10 years into this, and even then, the first few years of OAD was a culture adjustment where you had kids still leery of taking the OAD path that, compared to the last 5 or 6 years or so, doesn't exist as much today. Until it becomes readily apparent, marketable, presentable, and understandable what the likelihoods and probabilities are for kids to "stick" in the NBA after being OAD, there will be an inherent skew that leads potential OADs to actually declare as a OAD. IMO, there will be a correction at some point, after the glut of OAD is too much for the market to bear. There will be more "failures" (not in life, but in NBA life), and the decision will become more about lasting in the NBA and not just achieving their dream of getting into the draft.

These sorts of culture shifts take time. People have to live through them and then tell the tales to the next generation. The OAD phenomenon is still in its trail-blazing stage. I don't believe the kids and the families fully understand it yet. But they look at it and see the NBA boat leaving the dock, and they'll be damned if they miss that boat when there's no guarantee of ever getting on it again.

It's all super interesting to me. And super complicated.

- Chillin

[CDu]

so, just to be clear....there has been no statement from duke or frank regarding this, correct?

No, just the quotes from his dad.

[Jeffrey]

Correct and to be honest I find that really odd.


I also find the concept of Frank declaring really odd. No way he goes in the 1st round and it's unlikely he goes in the 2nd. If he declared, then Duke has no option but to spend the next two months finding other alternatives and making other plans. That probably does not help Frank's future, if he returns.

IMO, if Frank truly declared, then he needs better advisors.

[richardjackson199]

I also find the concept of Frank declaring really odd. No way he goes in the 1st round and it's unlikely he goes in the 2nd. If he declared, then Duke has no option but to spend the next two months finding other alternatives and making other plans. That probably does not help Frank's future, if he returns.

IMO, if Frank truly declared, then he needs better advisors.

I think Frank would be a second round pick, which means I think he should return to Duke this year. I think it's pretty likely that after a great year next year he would be a first round pick in a weaker draft. But I'm not Frank, so he should get the best advice he can and do what is best for him.

Draft Express agrees: Next year they have him as a first round pick, and I think he would improve that stock with a great year a Duke:

http://www.draftexpress.com/nba-mock-draft/2018/

[Hauerwas]

First the positive: K encouraged Frank to declare, basically giving him the opportunity to be evaluated on his strengths/weaknesses, get exposed to the 'business', build his brand for next year's draft and basically do an internship prior to jumping into he job waters next year. If so, this is a win for Duke and for Frank because both will benefit from this exposure.

Now the Negative: Frank and his dad are hell bent on one-and-done and not matter the results or feedback they are bound and determined to cash in this year. I can't imagine that K is telling them that Frank is NBA ready but from his dad's quotes it slightly appears that they were going the one-and-done route regardless. I find that weird on so many levels. Will Avery comes to mind. Right now, Frank is a lead guard that doesn't do anything exceptionally well or consistent. He's very well rounded but he doesn't have a great handle, his shot is somewhat inconsistent, he's short for a two guard and not quick enough for a pg.

Itching ears hear what they want to hear. If the family is determined to make the jump there is no sound argument or reason that is going to convince them otherwise. Hopefully he's just utilizing this as an opportunity to assess his current skill set for next year, otherwise, I can't see him sticking in the league and bumping around the DLeague for several years must be hell.

[left_hook_lacey]

Correct and to be honest I find that really odd.

Also odd is that apparently the NBA does not put out an official list of players on the Early Entry list. Given the 4/23 deadline is a NBA deadline, you would think the NBA would put out such a list on 4/24 but apparently that makes too much sense or something.

So outside of the hometown paper, there are no other confirmations that Frank actually declared. The "piggy-back" tweets & what nots all point to the hometown paper as their "source"..

Well, the paper quoted his dad directly. So I would say that if news that big were not true, dad would be releasing a statement or tweet or something to clear the air. At least I know I would.

[FadedTackyShirt]

Suspect there's more going on behind the scenes that will be revealed later. It's not like the social media era lacks for communication avenues, so virtually no communication from Duke and the Jacksons is puzzling.

The Mark Smith dalliance seemingly came out of the blue, but later made sense in the context of uncertainty surrounding Grayson, Frank, and Duval.

There are limited things to discuss at this point with so many unknowns, but there will be more than enough time to hash out OADs, basketball vs cultural fit at Duke, how the NBA has hosed college hoops, barbecue, and world peace between June and October.

[kAzE]

I've refrained from commenting on this thus far, hoping more would come out before this morning. I'm confused by it, only because Duke players typically get all the NBA evaluation they need from within the program, and make a final decision one way or the other. Certainly, Frank is entitled to test to waters, but this opens the door wide open that he could be gone for real. Personally, I think Frank passes the NBA eye test. He showed enough last year to prove that he has the potential to be a really good NBA player. There are obviously some things he needs to work on before he can be effective at the next level, but as we all know, the draft is based on potential. It only takes one team to believe in him enough to take him in the first round.

I'm really not sure which way this will go. I wish we could get an official statement from Frank, but I guess we will just have to add this to the pile of decisions that would dramatically change next year's team coming within the next month or so.

[szstark]

Just a question for the enthusiasts here... isn't the concept of testing the waters a positive? Shows that Frank is motivated, has big goals, and can get some top-tier feedback on where he needs to focus his off-season to attain his dream of playing in the NBA.

If the comments come back "you're ready for the big party now!" then congrats, Frank! You are about to become a very wealthy young man in the best basketball league in the universe. If it is more "work on the ball-handling skills and how you hedge on screens," then great, he can dial in on some needed work to be the best Duke player he can be.

Personally, I don't think Jackson is a first round pick, but no one pays me millions of dollars to make those sorts of decisions.

Am I going to be disappointed if Frank isn't at Duke next year? Of course. But, if he's NBA ready, who the hell am I to tell him he needs to attend his 200 level Psych class or whatever...

Honestly, my biggest concern for guys "testing the waters" is their ability to find a fair assessment. The kids that concern me are the ones who are reassured that they are NBA ready, but find themselves undrafted and with no more NCAA eligibility. Those are the sad stories.

In many cases testing the waters can be considered a positive. What is confusing here is that many on this board are suggesting that Frank wants to be a point guard in the NBA but is afraid of losing PG time at Duke to a totally untested (at the college level) freshman. If that is true, how can he possibly believe he is a better PG prospect than the many proven PGs already in this draft let alone those already on NBA rosters? I also don't buy the line that he is looking for feedback so he can improve. K and the Duke staff don't know his weaknesses and where he needs to improve? K's NBA contacts haven't given him feedback already? I get the money motivation, but from a pure basketball perspective, I don't get this "testing" decision. I would think he would need to prove himself as a more dominating, highly skilled player at the college level before thinking about the NBA. He hasn't done that yet. If he ever does, the money will be much bigger at the next level.

[Jeffrey]

Not to beat the dead horse here but how does coming back for a 2nd year at 2 guard for Duke get Frank to the first round? He has shiny "potential" now. He would be expected to improve drastically. Anything less could actually be seen as a disappointment.

Thanks for introducing this relevant discussion.

It's a safe bet Frank's goal is a long productive NBA career. Which coaching staff (Duke or D-league) do you think would do a better job developing Frank's potential next year? IMO, the quality range of D-league coaching is large.

[Hauerwas]

I've refrained from commenting on this thus far, hoping more would come out before this morning. I'm confused by it, only because Duke players typically get all the NBA evaluation they need from within the program, and make a final decision one way or the other. Certainly, Frank is entitled to test to waters, but this opens the door wide open that he could be gone for real. Personally, I think Frank passes the NBA eye test. He showed enough last year to prove that he has the potential to be a really good NBA player. There are obviously some things he needs to work on before he can be effective at the next level, but as we all know, the draft is based on potential. It only takes one team to believe in him enough to take him in the first round.

I'm really not sure which way this will go. I wish we could get an official statement from Frank, but I guess we will just have to add this to the pile of decisions that would dramatically change next year's team coming within the next month or so.

Totally agree kAzE, it would be great to get an official statement from either Frank or from Duke. The timing of the release also seems like it wasn't done with Duke's knowledge, kinda 11th hour submission after business hours, but that could just be speculation. We normally hold a press conference and endorse these type decisions, but it feels like the program may have been either miffed, or surprised by this decision...

Who knows.

[Dukelogger]

Totally agree kAzE, it would be great to get an official statement from either Frank or from Duke. The timing of the release also seems like it wasn't done with Duke's knowledge, kinda 11th hour submission after business hours, but that could just be speculation. We normally hold a press conference and endorse these type decisions, but it feels like the program may have been either miffed, or surprised by this decision...

Who knows.

Id have to disagree. Its just a process that is beneficial to a player that may want to ultimately play in the NBA. So teams really dont hold press conferences. Bradley, Berry and Pinson are all entering without an agent now. It doesnt really mean anything. I bet they'll all be back, as will Frank Jackson. Why hold a press conference for that?

As far as Grayson not getting feedback, it is possible that he has become such a lightning rod that he had to weigh in the potential media storm that would create and decide for himself if he wanted to deal with that if he knew he would come back for his senior year.

[flyingdutchdevil]

I've refrained from commenting on this thus far, hoping more would come out before this morning. I'm confused by it, only because Duke players typically get all the NBA evaluation they need from within the program, and make a final decision one way or the other. Certainly, Frank is entitled to test to waters, but this opens the door wide open that he could be gone for real. Personally, I think Frank passes the NBA eye test. He showed enough last year to prove that he has the potential to be a really good NBA player. There are obviously some things he needs to work on before he can be effective at the next level, but as we all know, the draft is based on potential. It only takes one team to believe in him enough to take him in the first round.

I'm really not sure which way this will go. I wish we could get an official statement from Frank, but I guess we will just have to add this to the pile of decisions that would dramatically change next year's team coming within the next month or so.

I'm with you Kaze. I have come to the conclusion that Duke has gone full-blown Kentucky in terms of recruiting and turnover. When you look at our last two classes of 8 5-star recruits (8!!!), there is a chance that only 1 ends up on our roster next year. That is insane. The breakdown is as follows:

High performance OAD that fit the statistical profile of an OAD: Tatum, Ingram
OAD due to injury risk in college: Giles
2AD who correctly declared based on strong statistical profile: Kennard
Transfers: Jeter, Thornton
Coming back to be an 2AD: Bolden

And this year's recruits just have a different mentality. IMO, all of them viewed themselves as OAD, even though only 1 had the profile to be an OAD (Tatum). The rest:

Giles: #1 recruit in the country who played like a 4-star recruit due to injuries. Didn't look comfortable. Would definitely have benefited from another year of college but the rest was too much.
Bolden: Long big man who couldn't crack the line-up. Thought about transferring because he knew he wasn't going to get drafted and may have felt being "recruited over". Staying in college for another year (and likely that's it. He'll declare or transfer at the end of next year)
Jackson: Athletic guard who put up solid numbers but a 4th offensive option and clearly thought of himself as an OAD. Looking to test the waters and may or may not be influenced by a potential incoming recruit.

[Neals384]

I'm having a hard time wrapping my head around this. I love Frank's game, and think he had a terrific freshman year. Effective ball handler, shooter and defender - as a college 2 guard.

As a point guard, I saw very raw skills; my recollection is that he often brought the ball up and simply passed it to another guard on the three point line. Does that do anything to advance the offense? His numbers reflect this: 1.7 assists and 1.4 TOs in 25 minutes a game are not impressive for college and give me no confidence whatsoever that he is NBA-ready.

If he stays at Duke for 4 years, maybe he can improve the way Nolan did (yes, his frosh scoring was better than Nolan's) and achieve some very special things at Duke. Oh, speaking of Nolan, we all love him and his amazing game, but somehow he wasn't good enough for the NBA. Does anybody really think Frank is/will be better than Nolan?

[moonpie23]

it's sad for College BB fans ands teams, but the reality is, this is about the kid's long-term career..... how to get yourself in the position to be exploited by the NBA and the subsequent "launch" of your "brand" is what kids face now.

I don't begrudge Frank, or any player with the skills to make a ton of money from, but i really don't like the theatre it's become.. :( I also don't think the behind-the-scenes drama helps with camaraderie and team building.


to keep myself in check, i try to mentally equate the players' talents, and exploitation of, the same as actors, or musicians that attend college. If they have the chops to get themselves a "deal", then, go for it, bruh.....

[kAzE]

I'm with you Kaze. I have come to the conclusion that Duke has gone full-blown Kentucky in terms of recruiting and turnover. When you look at our last two classes of 8 5-star recruits (8!!!), there is a chance that only 1 ends up on our roster next year. That is insane.

Yeah, the turnover has become even worse than UK. Consider that it's almost a given that there will be 0 players on the 2018-19 team who were on the team in 2016-17. Complete roster turnover within 2 years was unheard of at any point in the history of this basketball program until now.

[sagegrouse]

Correct and to be honest I find that really odd.

Also odd is that apparently the NBA does not put out an official list of players on the Early Entry list. Given the 4/23 deadline is a NBA deadline, you would think the NBA would put out such a list on 4/24 but apparently that makes too much sense or something.

So outside of the hometown paper, there are no other confirmations that Frank actually declared. The "piggy-back" tweets & what nots all point to the hometown paper as their "source"..

Also, remember that declaring "early entry" can be done by anyone -- not just college hoops stars. That would include Joe Schmo from Kokomo and all his drinking buddies. I doubt that the NBA wants to attract media sluts by publishing a list.

[flyingdutchdevil]

Yeah, the turnover has become even worse than UK. Consider that it's almost a given that there will be 0 players on the 2018-19 team who were on the team in 2016-17. Complete roster turnover within 2 years was unheard of at any point in the history of this basketball program until now.

You're forgetting your boy Jack White ;)

[kAzE]

You're forgetting your boy Jack White ;)

Yes, and Javin, and Antonio. I suppose I meant to say 5 star recruits, but man, if that's the bridge between 2016 and 2018, we better hope Javin really pans out. Lack of continuity really sucks in college basketball.

[Troublemaker]

I'm having a hard time wrapping my head around this. I love Frank's game, and think he had a terrific freshman year. Effective ball handler, shooter and defender - as a college 2 guard.

As a point guard, I saw very raw skills; my recollection is that he often brought the ball up and simply passed it to another guard on the three point line. Does that do anything to advance the offense? His numbers reflect this: 1.7 assists and 1.4 TOs in 25 minutes a game are not impressive for college and give me no confidence whatsoever that he is NBA-ready.

If he stays at Duke for 4 years, maybe he can improve the way Nolan did (yes, his frosh scoring was better than Nolan's) and achieve some very special things at Duke. Oh, speaking of Nolan, we all love him and his amazing game, but somehow he wasn't good enough for the NBA. Does anybody really think Frank is/will be better than Nolan?

Yes. Frank has more burst and better leaping ability than Nolan. Frank already had a much better freshman season than Nolan. If Frank returns to Duke, he'll be one of the better players in the country next season, making a leap similar to Grayson and Luke, thus having a much better sophomore season than Nolan. And on and on, barring injury, he'll just continue being ahead of the "Nolan curve." Love Nolan, but Frank is a better prospect for sure, imo.

[DukeTrinity11]

I'm with you Kaze. I have come to the conclusion that Duke has gone full-blown Kentucky in terms of recruiting and turnover. When you look at our last two classes of 8 5-star recruits (8!!!), there is a chance that only 1 ends up on our roster next year. That is insane. The breakdown is as follows:

High performance OAD that fit the statistical profile of an OAD: Tatum, Ingram
OAD due to injury risk in college: Giles
2AD who correctly declared based on strong statistical profile: Kennard
Transfers: Jeter, Thornton
Coming back to be an 2AD: Bolden

And this year's recruits just have a different mentality. IMO, all of them viewed themselves as OAD, even though only 1 had the profile to be an OAD (Tatum). The rest:

Giles: #1 recruit in the country who played like a 4-star recruit due to injuries. Didn't look comfortable. Would definitely have benefited from another year of college but the rest was too much.
Bolden: Long big man who couldn't crack the line-up. Thought about transferring because he knew he wasn't going to get drafted and may have felt being "recruited over". Staying in college for another year (and likely that's it. He'll declare or transfer at the end of next year)
Jackson: Athletic guard who put up solid numbers but a 4th offensive option and clearly thought of himself as an OAD. Looking to test the waters and may or may not be influenced by a potential incoming recruit.


Yeah, the turnover has become even worse than UK. Consider that it's almost a given that there will be 0 players on the 2018-19 team who were on the team in 2016-17. Complete roster turnover within 2 years was unheard of at any point in the history of this basketball program until now.

Come on guys, what do you suggest K and Capel should do, simply stop recruiting at a high level out of fear of losing too many players after 1 or 2 years??? ;)

I'd rather take my chances swinging away with top 10 recruits like Kyrie Irving, Austin Rivers, Jabari Parker, Tyus Jones, Brandon Ingram and Jayson Tatum ever year than retaining lower level recruits like David McClure, Marty Pocius, Josh Hairston, Tyler Thornton, Miles Plumlee and Marshall Plumlee for 4 years.

I think sometimes I and other Duke Basketball fans put too much weight on intangibles like experience and leadership. Those matter but at the end of the day, talent wins championships.

Duke has one of the highest if not the highest impact upperclassman returning for his senior season next year. That's all the experience we"ll need to win the championship next year if the freshmen perform up to par and buy into playing team defense.

[SkyBrickey]

If he's graded second-round or even border-line first round, I would expect him to come back for a second year.

He will have the opportunity to play himself into a guaranteed money first round pick in a weaker draft - he is currently projected late first round next year.

And if he's not able to play himself into a first round pick next year, he still can go D-league second round and he's 1-year closer to a valuable Duke degree. He'd also keep open the option to come back for a third year - with no Allen and no Duval - where he would be THE showcase talent in one of the country's highest profile programs.

I think it would be a BIG mistake to leave Duke for the D-league at this point and hopefully he and his Dad are smart enough to realize this. The only reason to go that route is if he is struggling at Duke (in the classroom or with coaches/teammates) and that doesn't seem to be the case...

[Kedsy]

Yes, and Javin, and Antonio. I suppose I meant to say 5 star recruits, but man, if that's the bridge between 2016 and 2018, we better hope Javin really pans out. Lack of continuity really sucks in college basketball.

Yeah, it's pretty crazy that the likely scenario (not worst case) for our 2018-19 roster will be Javin, Jack, Antonio, Alex, and a bunch of freshman from a supposedly "weak" class.

Forget minutes predictions, the poll for 2019 should be how long before DBR explodes.

[DukeTrinity11]

Yeah, it's pretty crazy that the likely scenario (not worst case) for our 2018-19 roster will be Javin, Jack, Antonio, Alex, and a bunch of freshman from a supposedly "weak" class.

Forget minutes predictions, the poll for 2019 should be how long before DBR explodes.
I don't believe that the 2019 HS recruiting class is supposed to be weak. Marvin Bagley, Zion Williamson, Romeo Langford and Cameron Reddish all project to be amongst the best players in their freshman year of college and surefire one-and-dones.

I'd be shocked if Javin and Jack weren't impact ACC players by their junior year. DeLaurier was a 5 star recruit after all.

[lotusland]

I think Frank would be a second round pick, which means I think he should return to Duke this year. I think it's pretty likely that after a great year next year he would be a first round pick in a weaker draft. But I'm not Frank, so he should get the best advice he can and do what is best for him.

Draft Express agrees: Next year they have him as a first round pick, and I think he would improve that stock with a great year a Duke:

http://www.draftexpress.com/nba-mock-draft/2018/

I think it could be more difficult for Frank to fill that role than draft express does...

Outlook
Jackson can really score and he showed that throughout the week of practices, with most of his buckets revolving around his jumper. While the 17-year-old should be able to get buckets in the ACC early and often, it's his growth as a playmaker that will ultimately determine his upside. Duke has had success without a “pure” point guard in the past, so it shouldn't be all that difficult for Jackson to fill a role as a scoring guard in Durham. - Source: http://www.draftexpress.com/profile/Frank-Jackson-89588/ ©DraftExpress

[Natty_B]

talent wins championships.

Does it though? Probably the only lottery pick from the Final Four is maybe Zach Collins. The only other first round pick is Jackson. Brice Johnson and Marcus Paige combined to score 4 points total in the NBA this year. None of the Villanova guys are expected to be NBA factors.

Anyway I echo the comments above that this decision, and the lack of social media announcements, shows it was at least a little unexpected. And the total gut rehab of the program every year, will also happen next spring, is something that needs to be looked at closely.

[gam7]

I don't believe that the 2019 HS recruiting class is supposed to be weak. Marvin Bagley, Zion Williamson, Romeo Langford and Cameron Reddish all project to be amongst the best players in their freshman year of college and surefire one-and-dones.

I'd be shocked if Javin and Jack weren't impact ACC players by their junior year. DeLaurier was a 5 star recruit after all.

Those guys are all in the 2018 high school recruiting class, and apparently people knowledgable about recruiting think that aside from Bagley, it is a relatively weak class. Yes, they may be one-and-done, but it's all relative. They'll be one-and-done in what appears to be a weak class (which helps to make it possible for them to be one-and-done).

Shocked if Javin and Jack aren't impact ACC players? I guess it depends on your definition of "impact," but I would be shocked if they EVER are impact ACC players. My expectation and best-case scenario is that they will be solid (and possibly starting) role players. Also, DeLaurier was not a 5-star recruit.

Unrelated to the post above, I have to say that until this thread was started last week, I didn't know that Frank's leaving was something I was supposed to be worried about. And, until yesterday, had no idea that he was considering this...

I agree with those who think this seems like a "free evaluation" situation, but I've been totally in the dark on this one all off-season, so who knows...

I know it has been said many times, but all of this early entry and transferring is just terrible for the sport of college basketball. This is not a "players should stay 4 years" rant. It is just a fact.

[DukeTrinity11]

Does it though? Probably the only lottery pick from the Final Four is maybe Zach Collins. The only other first round pick is Jackson. Brice Johnson and Marcus Paige combined to score 4 points total in the NBA this year. None of the Villanova guys are expected to be NBA factors.

Anyway I echo the comments above that this decision, and the lack of social media announcements, shows it was at least a little unexpected. And the total gut rehab of the program every year, will also happen next spring, is something that needs to be looked at closely.
When I say talent, I mean to say skill and ability, not neccessarily what translates to the NBA Draft although there's a strong correlation.

Nigel Williams-Goss, Isaiah Hicks, Joel Berry and Tony Bradley were all McDonald's All-Americans who played in the recent national championship game.

[CDu]

When I say talent, I mean to say skill and ability, not neccessarily what translates to the NBA Draft although there's a strong correlation.

Nigel Williams-Goss, Isaiah Hicks, Joel Berry and Tony Bradley were all McDonald's All-Americans who played in the recent national championship game.

And Kennedy Meeks. And Theo Pinson.

Now, of course many/most of those guys aren't NBA prospects. But they were all McDonald's All-Americans.

[FadedTackyShirt]

Come on guys, what do you suggest K and Capel should do, simply stop recruiting at a high level out of fear of losing too many players after 1 or 2 years???

Not recruiting the top 25-30 prep players because they may only stay 1-2 years would be absurd as would an entire team of mercenary OADs. There's a reasonable middle ground that can work for both Duke University and Duke basketball.

Simmons and Fultz would have never fit at Duke: single-minded OADs who didn't care about team success or pesky little things like attending classes. Never want those types at Duke.

Kyrie, Jah, Ingram, and Tatum were extraordinary talents who valued what Duke had to offer on and off the court. Would have been foolish for them to stay (even at Duke) when they were projected as top five picks. Fare thee well.

Was surprised at how much crap Luke took from some here for leaving as a sophomore. Projects safely into the first round and represented Duke admirably on and off the court. Sincerely hope Duke and K implement programs and encourage entrants to finish their degrees eventually.

No problem with someone leaving early to support a child or address family financial hardships. A player leaving when they don't have those constraints, academic issues, or don't project as a first rounder would be tougher to understand. Giles may be an exception because of medical concerns.

[Newton_14]

Id have to disagree. Its just a process that is beneficial to a player that may want to ultimately play in the NBA. So teams really dont hold press conferences. Bradley, Berry and Pinson are all entering without an agent now. It doesnt really mean anything. I bet they'll all be back, as will Frank Jackson. Why hold a press conference for that?

As far as Grayson not getting feedback, it is possible that he has become such a lightning rod that he had to weigh in the potential media storm that would create and decide for himself if he wanted to deal with that if he knew he would come back for his senior year.

Honest question here; not trying to be a smart aleck, but do you have a link for this? Because as I understand it, of those 3 uncCheat kids, only one of them (Bradley) actually declared for the draft, and he is expected to stay in, so not testing the waters. I'm not saying you are wrong, just furthering my point that it is difficult to know for sure given how the "early entry list" is not reported on very well.

That's why I wish the NBA would publish an official list. How hard can it be to put that info out there officially?

[Jeffrey]

That's why I wish the NBA would publish an official list. How hard can it be to put that info out there officially?

I agree and suspect the NBA teams already have an official list.

[flyingdutchdevil]

Honest question here; not trying to be a smart aleck, but do you have a link for this? Because as I understand it, of those 3 uncCheat kids, only one of them (Bradley) actually declared for the draft, and he is expected to stay in, so not testing the waters. I'm not saying you are wrong, just furthering my point that it is difficult to know for sure given how the "early entry list" is not reported on very well.

That's why I wish the NBA would publish an official list. How hard can it be to put that info out there officially?

http://www.newsobserver.com/sports/college/acc/unc/unc-now/article146384084.html

[rsvman]

Someone else pointed out earlier that if it's true that Frank is weighing the Duval recruitment into his decision it's kinda absurd.

I mean, let me get this straight: He thinks he's good enough to compete with Markelle Fultz, Frank Mason, Nigel Williams-Goss, and the like, but he's afraid he won't be able to compete with Duval? In what universe does that make sense?

[devildeac]

Honest question here; not trying to be a smart aleck, but do you have a link for this? Because as I understand it, of those 3 uncCheat kids, only one of them (Bradley) actually declared for the draft, and he is expected to stay in, so not testing the waters. I'm not saying you are wrong, just furthering my point that it is difficult to know for sure given how the "early entry list" is not reported on very well.

That's why I wish the NBA would publish an official list. How hard can it be to put that info out there officially?

From the uncsportsnetwork:

http://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/19232956/north-carolina-tarheels-joel-berry-theo-pinson-tony-bradley-declare-draft

[Newton_14]

From the uncsportsnetwork:

http://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/19232956/north-carolina-tarheels-joel-berry-theo-pinson-tony-bradley-declare-draft
Thanks. I saw the link from InsideCheat in the early entry thread shortly after asking my question in this one...

[devildeac]

Thanks. I saw the link from InsideCheat in the early entry thread shortly after asking my question in this one...

You're welcome. Tough at our ages keeping up with all the overlap in all the threads. :o;)

[Troublemaker]

Yeah, it's pretty crazy that the likely scenario (not worst case) for our 2018-19 roster will be Javin, Jack, Antonio, Alex, and a bunch of freshman from a supposedly "weak" class.

Yeah, I'm hoping that the 2018-19 team will be the beginning of things settling down a bit wrt roster turnover.

Clearly next season's team -- if we hit our targets and Frank returns -- could have 5 players (Duval, Carter, Knox, Jackson, and Bolden) leaving for sure or very likely leaving, plus Grayson. But I'm hoping the weakness of the 2018 class will give us a few 2-3 year players, maybe even 3-4 year players, and only 1-2 OADs.

[mr. synellinden]

Totally agree kAzE, it would be great to get an official statement from either Frank or from Duke. The timing of the release also seems like it wasn't done with Duke's knowledge, kinda 11th hour submission after business hours, but that could just be speculation. We normally hold a press conference and endorse these type decisions, but it feels like the program may have been either miffed, or surprised by this decision...

Who knows.

It kind of feels like the Duval courtship (and perhaps getting more serious) and the late Smith recruitment and the Jackson Sr. comments are all intertwined and connected. Which is the chicken and which is the egg?

[subzero02]

Yes. Frank has more burst and better leaping ability than Nolan. Frank already had a much better freshman season than Nolan. If Frank returns to Duke, he'll be one of the better players in the country next season, making a leap similar to Grayson and Luke, thus having a much better sophomore season than Nolan. And on and on, barring injury, he'll just continue being ahead of the "Nolan curve." Love Nolan, but Frank is a better prospect for sure, imo.

I completely agree. Coming into last season, I expected Frank to be the best player on the 17-18squad (after, Giles, Tatum, Allen, and Bolden left early for the draft). After a few games into the season, I thought Jackson and Kennard would become the best scoring backcourt in the country in 2017-2018... I really hope Frank returns because an injury-free Allen and Jackson backcourt could be every bit as potent and freakishly athletic.

[Troublemaker]

Since hearing that Jackson might declare, my concern (since I don't see him as a first round pick this year) has been that he might be more attractive to Utah (and their fan base) as both a home town kid and a rare Mormon NBA talent. He has added value in Utah that might make him worth a late 1st round pick. And Mr. Jackson specifically mentioned that Frank is a long-time Jazz fan and that they hope to get a work out with the team.

Yeah, and I look at the presence of Shelvin Mack and Raul Neto as 3rd and 4th-string point guards on the Jazz, and I am officially nervous.

And Utah owns the #30 pick in the draft.

Very interesting thought, Owen Meany.

[DangerDevil]

Since hearing that Jackson might declare, my concern (since I don't see him as a first round pick this year) has been that he might be more attractive to Utah (and their fan base) as both a home town kid and a rare Mormon NBA talent. He has added value in Utah that might make him worth a late 1st round pick. And Mr. Jackson specifically mentioned that Frank is a long-time Jazz fan and that they hope to get a work out with the team.

For what it's worth Bleacher Report has an updated mock draft that has the Jazz taking Frank with the 30th pick and they don't even mention the hometown angle.

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/2704883-nba-mock-draft-after-the-declaration-deadline

[Kedsy]

Yeah, I'm hoping that the 2018-19 team will be the beginning of things settling down a bit wrt roster turnover.

Clearly next season's team -- if we hit our targets and Frank returns -- could have 5 players (Duval, Carter, Knox, Jackson, and Bolden) leaving for sure or very likely leaving, plus Grayson. But I'm hoping the weakness of the 2018 class will give us a few 2-3 year players, maybe even 3-4 year players, and only 1-2 OADs.

What I'm hoping is that the 2018-19 team is good enough to make the NCAA tournament. Guess it depends on our recruits, but our veterans will probably have historically little experience going in to that season.

Not trying to be a downer, but look at this (admittedly few data point) 12-year pattern: 1983, 1995, 2007, 2019.

[subzero02]

For what it's worth Bleacher Report has an updated mock draft that has the Jazz taking Frank with the 30th pick and they don't even mention the hometown angle.

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/2704883-nba-mock-draft-after-the-declaration-deadline
Bleacher report is dead to me....

[CDu]

What I'm hoping is that the 2018-19 team is good enough to make the NCAA tournament. Guess it depends on our recruits, but our veterans will probably have historically little experience going in to that season.

Not trying to be a downer, but look at this (admittedly few data point) 12-year pattern: 1983, 1995, 2007, 2019.

Yeah, I am not ready to draw a trend there. Partly because there is no logic to 12 years as a pattern. Partly because there isn't all that much similarity between those years listed. In 1983, we were just in the beginning the Coach K era, and in that period before early entry in which veteran talent reigned. In 1995, we didn't have Coach K. In 2007, we were still a 22-win tourney team.

I don't know what to expect yet in 2019. Maybe DeLaurier, O'Connell, and White are ready to contribute. Maybe a senior Vrankovic steps up like 5th-year senior Plumlee. Maybe one or two of the recruiting class sticks around. Maybe we add a transfer or grad transfer. And we will likely have top talent from the freshman class. Who knows?

[MChambers]

What I'm hoping is that the 2018-19 team is good enough to make the NCAA tournament. Guess it depends on our recruits, but our veterans will probably have historically little experience going in to that season.

Not trying to be a downer, but look at this (admittedly few data point) 12-year pattern: 1983, 1995, 2007, 2019.
This is like Brood X, except that it's every 12 years, not 17?

[Kedsy]

Yeah, I am not ready to draw a trend there. Partly because there is no logic to 12 years as a pattern. Partly because there isn't all that much similarity between those years listed. In 1983, we were just in the beginning the Coach K era, and in that period before early entry in which veteran talent reigned. In 1995, we didn't have Coach K. In 2007, we were still a 22-win tourney team.

I don't know what to expect yet in 2019. Maybe DeLaurier, O'Connell, and White are ready to contribute. Maybe a senior Vrankovic steps up like 5th-year senior Plumlee. Maybe one or two of the recruiting class sticks around. Maybe we add a transfer or grad transfer. And we will likely have top talent from the freshman class. Who knows?

Fair enough, though I don't believe the pattern is entirely coincidence. To Troublemaker's point, though, at least one freshman from each of those teams played in an NCAA championship game their senior year.

[CDu]

Fair enough, though I don't believe the pattern is entirely coincidence. To Troublemaker's point, though, at least one freshman from each of those teams played in an NCAA championship game their senior year.

If you don't think the "pattern" is coincidence, then (a) what would cause a 12-year pattern over three decades, and (b) why would that pattern have started in Coach K's third year?

I am all for trying to find patterns in data. But this is neither a strong pattern of evidence (given how different each of 1983, 1995, and 2007 were from one another) and lacks any sort of explanation as to why it would be a pattern.

[Jeffrey]

Fair enough, though I don't believe the pattern is entirely coincidence.

If it's not entirely coincidence, then what else do you attribute it to?

[Kedsy]

If you don't think the "pattern" is coincidence, then (a) what would cause a 12-year pattern over three decades, and (b) why would that pattern have started in Coach K's third year?

I am all for trying to find patterns in data. But this is neither a strong pattern of evidence (given how different each of 1983, 1995, and 2007 were from one another) and lacks any sort of explanation as to why it would be a pattern.

(a) I think it might have to do with Coach K's recruiting cycles. Back in the day, whenever he had a lot of underclassmen, he didn't recruit as many freshmen, leading to thin rosters if anything unexpected happened. He was able to "patch" the issue for a few years, but it kept spiraling until at some point (12 years, according to this theory), he was left with an "unpatchable" roster filled with good-but-not-otherworldly underclassmen and very few veterans with significant playing experience. This time, the same thing is happening, not because he's recruiting fewer guys, but because more guys are leaving early.

(b) Because 1983 was K's first real recruiting class.

The good news is, as I alluded in my last post, was that the good-but-not-otherworldly underclassmen improved over four years and, when added to additional strong recruiting classes, led to exceedingly strong teams in 1986, 1998, and 2010.

[CDu]

(a) I think it might have to do with Coach K's recruiting cycles. Back in the day, whenever he had a lot of underclassmen, he didn't recruit as many freshmen, leading to thin rosters if anything unexpected happened. He was able to "patch" the issue for a few years, but it kept spiraling until at some point (12 years, according to this theory), he was left with an "unpatchable" roster filled with good-but-not-otherworldly underclassmen and very few veterans with significant playing experience. This time, the same thing is happening, not because he's recruiting fewer guys, but because more guys are leaving early.

(b) Because 1983 was K's first real recruiting class.

The good news is, as I alluded in my last post, was that the good-but-not-otherworldly underclassmen improved over four years and, when added to additional strong recruiting classes, led to exceedingly strong teams in 1986, 1998, and 2010.

Yeah, sorry, I am not buying it all. It seems like a real reach. Especially since you still haven't given any reason why there would be a 12-year cycle. And if it has to do with his reaching "cycle" (seriously? A 12-year recruiting cycle?) why would it then have started with his first great recruiting class? And how then does 1995 fit in?

I am pretty darn close to 100% sure there is no 12-year recruiting cycle issue at play, nor do I see similarities between 1983, 1995, and 2007. The 2007 team played out like the 1996 team or the 2012 team. Not so much like the 1983 team. And the 1995 team is an outlier compared to everything considering the Coach missed 60+% of the season.

[Wander]

Yes. Frank has more burst and better leaping ability than Nolan. Frank already had a much better freshman season than Nolan. If Frank returns to Duke, he'll be one of the better players in the country next season, making a leap similar to Grayson and Luke, thus having a much better sophomore season than Nolan. And on and on, barring injury, he'll just continue being ahead of the "Nolan curve." Love Nolan, but Frank is a better prospect for sure, imo.

While Frank was probably a little better than Nolan in their freshman years (although even that's questionable - Nolan played his freshman year during a season where we had too many guards, and Nolan was probably a better defender), Nolan's consistent and large improvements each year were far better than the vast majority of college basketball players. You are basically guaranteeing that Frank Jackson would win National Player of the Year as a senior, because that is only way to be ahead of the "Nolan curve" that year. Of course, it looks like we probably won't get to test this.



Not trying to be a downer, but look at this (admittedly few data point) 12-year pattern: 1983, 1995, 2007, 2019.


Yeah, the Duke players are probably getting attacked by cicadas.

[Hauerwas]

Here are the guards that currently rank higher than Jackson on the big boards:
Ball
Fultz
Fox
Josh Jackson (yes I know he's a SF but he could play the 2 in the League)
French Dude
Monk
Dennis Smith
Ferguson
Mitchell
Kennard
Dozier
Bacon

That's a crap ton of talent that Frank would have to leapfrog just to get in the first round. I don't see it happening. And of course, not every team will need or want a guard at their spot in the draft. I guess I'm just trying to convince myself that he will be back. Here's hoping.

[Kedsy]

Yeah, sorry, I am not buying it all. It seems like a real reach. Especially since you still haven't given any reason why there would be a 12-year cycle. And if it has to do with his reaching "cycle" (seriously? A 12-year recruiting cycle?) why would it then have started with his first great recruiting class? And how then does 1995 fit in?

I am pretty darn close to 100% sure there is no 12-year recruiting cycle issue at play, nor do I see similarities between 1983, 1995, and 2007. The 2007 team played out like the 1996 team or the 2012 team. Not so much like the 1983 team. And the 1995 team is an outlier compared to everything considering the Coach missed 60+% of the season.

Whatever. But one thing I will say is the 2007 team (8-8 ACC; 22-11 overall) played out nothing like the 2012 team (13-3 ACC; 27-7 overall). Only similarity was the 1st round NCAAT exit.

[jipops]

From the uncsportsnetwork:

http://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/19232956/north-carolina-tarheels-joel-berry-theo-pinson-tony-bradley-declare-draft

My own limited speculation of course, but no way I see Berry and Pinson staying in the draft. Pinson simply can't shoot, right now at least. Though he has some nice play-making abilities the NBA is a league that now places high value on perimeter guys that can shoot. Berry has no standout ability or characteristic for the next level that would intrigue scouts. Plus his release point on his shot is very low which wouldn't bode well for a 6-0 guard in the league. I fully expect for these guys to be back in light blue uniforms next season performing very well at the college level. Berry will certainly be the favorite for ACC POY and on the national POY list.

I thought Bradley was impressive as a reserve big for the two or three games that I saw. Of the three I see him being the most likely one to stay in the draft.

[arnie]

Here are the guards that currently rank higher than Jackson on the big boards:
Ball
Fultz
Fox
Josh Jackson (yes I know he's a SF but he could play the 2 in the League)
French Dude
Monk
Dennis Smith
Ferguson
Mitchell
Kennard
Dozier
Bacon

That's a crap ton of talent that Frank would have to leapfrog just to get in the first round. I don't see it happening. And of course, not every team will need or want a guard at their spot in the draft. I guess I'm just trying to convince myself that he will be back. Here's hoping.

Yea but the Utah connection is simply too strong to ignore. Teams with the 30th pick don't expect to get a instant star and Utah could easily rationalize taking Jackson over Kennard on down the list. With the way this has played out, I suspect he's gone.

The Charlotte Hornets/Bobcats/Hornets have done this routinely with far less talented prospects from the Hill.

[CDu]

Whatever. But one thing I will say is the 2007 team (8-8 ACC; 22-11 overall) played out nothing like the 2012 team (13-3 ACC; 27-7 overall). Only similarity was the 1st round NCAAT exit.

Hey, you are the one who has a theory with no rationale behind it other than three very loosely similar (to be generous) data points. Not sure why the indignant response. Come up with a real theory as to WHY you think this shaky at best pattern is not coincidence/contrived, and then we can talk.

As for 2007, you're absolutely right. It was not like 2012. But it was much more like 1996 and 2016 than 1995 or 1983. Heck, it's still closer to 2012 than it is to either 1995 or 1983. So if we remove 2007 (as we should), we no longer have a trend here. We have just the two losing seasons: one in the first year of Coach K's own recruits, and one in which Coach K missed over half the season. And then we have a third data point (2007) that doesn't really look anything like the other two. So I don't see any reason to use those three years as a point of reference for 2019.

You call people out (rightly so) when they present poorly-supported theories/arguments that don't appear to have merit. This is an example of a poorly-supported theory that doesn't appear to have much merit.

[weezie]

I can hardly believe that Quinn Snyder is 50.

[dukelifer]

Yea but the Utah connection is simply too strong to ignore. Teams with the 30th pick don't expect to get a instant star and Utah could easily rationalize taking Jackson over Kennard on down the list. With the way this has played out, I suspect he's gone.

The Charlotte Hornets/Bobcats/Hornets have done this routinely with far less talented prospects from the Hill.

Yes- this could be the difference. He is definitely worth the 30th pick for the hometown Jazz. They can wait for him to develop a year in the D league and he gets guaranteed dollars. He may be two years away but he will be working full time on his game if he leaves. I would think Mr Jackson is gone. Duke should plan with that assumption.

[Jeffrey]

I think it might have to do with Coach K's recruiting cycles. Back in the day, whenever he had a lot of underclassmen, he didn't recruit as many freshmen, leading to thin rosters if anything unexpected happened. He was able to "patch" the issue for a few years, but it kept spiraling until at some point (12 years, according to this theory), he was left with an "unpatchable" roster filled with good-but-not-otherworldly underclassmen and very few veterans with significant playing experience. This time, the same thing is happening, not because he's recruiting fewer guys, but because more guys are leaving early.


Why hasn't the 12 year cycle been affected by OADs? Seems like having more guys leaving early would shorten cycle duration.

[Indoor66]

I can hardly believe that Quinn Snyder is 50.

I wish I was.😂😎

[Troublemaker]

What I'm hoping is that the 2018-19 team is good enough to make the NCAA tournament. Guess it depends on our recruits, but our veterans will probably have historically little experience going in to that season.

Not trying to be a downer, but look at this (admittedly few data point) 12-year pattern: 1983, 1995, 2007, 2019.


Fair enough, though I don't believe the pattern is entirely coincidence. To Troublemaker's point, though, at least one freshman from each of those teams played in an NCAA championship game their senior year.

Yeah, 2018-19 could certainly end up being a down year. I hope any fans that desire roster stabilization will be understanding that the first year could have lots of growing pains, and as you noted, the 1983 freshmen eventually became the core of the 1986 title game finalists, the 2007 freshmen eventually became the core of the 2010 champs, etc. If indeed we manage to nab a few quality 3-4 year players in 2018.

Once the staff has wrapped up 2017 recruiting, I do think they will pursue 1 or 2 high-level transfers that will sit out a year, learn Duke's system, and then compete for a starting job in 2018-19. That would help. Also, with the recent good vibes regarding Duval and Knox, a part of me thinks our staff can recruit their way out of any bad situation at this point. Let's say, for example, there are only 4 players in the 2018 recruiting class that are good enough to be a true OAD prospect. Could Duke end up signing half of them, even with recruiting giants Kentucky, Arizona, Kansas, UCLA, Michigan St, etc are all trying for the same 4 as well? Maybe.

[WiJoe]

Yes- this could be the difference. He is definitely worth the 30th pick for the hometown Jazz. They can wait for him to develop a year in the D league and he gets guaranteed dollars. He may be two years away but he will be working full time on his game if he leaves. I would think Mr Jackson is gone. Duke should plan with that assumption.

that worked out real well — uh, no — for Tyus Jones & the Timberwolves

[MartyClark]

I like this kid and hope he stays. I think that he, Duvall (if Duke gets him), and Allen could be the best guard combination in college basketball. Duvall and Fraago.nk could effectively share the point as Tyus and Quinn did two years

From my perspective, and I'm a "glass is half empty" guy, I worry that Frank leaves and Duvall does not choose Duke. I don't think that would bode well for next year's team.

I'll be selfish and ask Frank to please come back.