2017 NBA Playoffs

[Troublemaker]

Let's get this thread rolling.

1st-round matchups are below. Dukies are listed in blue. UNC players are listed in red for those interested in that. (Didn't want to use the vomit-inducing blue.)

Minutes per game for each player are also shown. Where there's a tilda (~), I'm guesstimating minutes for deep bench players since playoff rotations tend to be shorter.

Up top, there's a poll to pick your two Finals participants. Choose ONE East team and ONE West team. Will we see Cavs-Warriors for the 3rd consecutive year?

Let me know if any mistakes or omissions.


EAST


1 Boston Celtics - Tyler Zeller (~3 mpg), Co-Owner Stephen Pagliuca
vs
8 Chicago Bulls


4 Washington Wizards
vs
5 Atlanta Hawks - Mike Dunleavy (15.8 mpg), Ryan Kelly (~0 mpg), Co-Owner Grant Hill


3 Toronto Raptors
vs
6 Milwaukee Bucks - John Henson (~15 mpg), Jabari Parker (OUT for season)


2 Cleveland Cavaliers - Kyrie Irving (35.1 mpg), Dahntay Jones (~0 mpg)
vs
7 Indiana Pacers - Assistant Coach David McClure



WEST


1 Golden St Warriors - James Michael McAdoo (~3 mpg)
vs
8 Portland Trail Blazers - Ed Davis (OUT for season)


4 Los Angeles Clippers - JJ Redick (28.2 mpg), Austin Rivers* (27.8 mpg), Raymond Felton (21.3 mpg), Brice Johnson (~0 mpg)
vs
5 Utah Jazz - Rodney Hood (27.1 mpg), Head Coach Quin Snyder, Assistant Coach Antonio Lang


3 Houston Rockets
vs
6 Oklahoma City Thunder - Kyle Singler** (~0 mpg), Basketball Operations Coordinator Amanda Green


2 San Antonio Spurs - Danny Green (26.7 mpg), Assistant Coach Chip Engelland
vs
7 Memphis Grizzlies - Vince Carter (24.7 mpg), Brandan Wright (16.0 mpg)


* Austin will be returning from a strained hamstring. He's targeting Game 3 or 4 of the first-round series against Utah.
** Kyle will be back out of the rotation unless OKC wings McDermott and Abrines get injured again.

[Troublemaker]

Poll software only allows a maximum of 15 choices.

So, obviously, if you choose the Spurs to advance to the NBA Finals, you get the Grizzlies as well. (And vice versa).

[Reilly]

What happened to Bob Bender and Memphis? Saw articles from last August that he was hired as an assistant, but then didn't see him listed as a coach on their site.

[Troublemaker]

What happened to Bob Bender and Memphis? Saw articles from last August that he was hired as an assistant, but then didn't see him listed as a coach on their site.

Yeah, that's weird that he's not listed on the site (http://www.nba.com/grizzlies/roster/). However, Bob IS listed in the game notes (pdf) (http://www.nba.com/gamenotes/grizzlies.pdf) for the Spurs series.

So, great catch, Reilly. The Grizzlies have a little bit of Duke in them, too.

[Troublemaker]

From a rooting-for-Dukies-to-win-the-Finals perspective, if one cares about such a thing, it looks like Kyrie and Dahntay are our best bet again. Cleveland has looked sooooo bad down the stretch of the regular season, but maybe they can flip a switch for the playoffs again. The Cavs were maybe lucky to have avoided the Bulls in the first round since Chicago swept them in the regular season. Hopefully Cleveland can get their mojo going again by playing well and making it an easy series win against the Pacers.

The most interesting 1st-round series from a Duke perspective is Clips-Jazz. (It may also be the most interesting / competitive series from a basketball perspective as well.) The two Duke-iest teams out West will slug it out. Not sure whom I'll be rooting for yet.

[Indoor66]

The Heat missed the playoffs but it was a tale of two 1\2 seasons: 1st half = 11 & 30; 2nd half = 30 & 11!

Quite a turn around.

[flyingdutchdevil]

The most surprising thing I've read on DBR in months: DAVID MCCLURE IS AN ASSISTANT COACH FOR THE PACERS?!?!?!?!!?!?!?!?!?!!?!?! Did not see that coming at all. Wow! Great for him.

Color me impressed that all these non-NBA Dukies are taking over the NBA (McClure, Synder, etc).

[sagegrouse]

The most surprising thing I've read on DBR in months: DAVID MCCLURE IS AN ASSISTANT COACH FOR THE PACERS?!?!?!?!!?!?!?!?!?!!?!?! Did not see that coming at all. Wow! Great for him.

Color me impressed that all these non-NBA Dukies are taking over the NBA (McClure, Synder, etc).

You may bot have seen the article cited in this DBR thread (http://forums.dukebasketballreport.com/forums/showthread.php?39962-Nice-Article-on-David-McClure). It is a very motivating article about Dave McClure.

[Reilly]

... The Grizzlies have a little bit of Duke in them, too.

In addition to Bender, apparently their physical therapist and counsel have Duke ties, too:
http://www.nba.com/.element/media/2.0/teamsites/grizzlies/media/MG_Media_Guide_1617.pdf

(Stumbled on that by searching Duke in the media guide, looking to see if Tony Barone was still involved with them.)

[superdave]

I would be a little surprised if we dont have a three-peat of the Finals between the Cavs and Warriors. I know the Spurs will get some looks, but the reigning conference champs know how to turn it on when they need to, and I would expect things to play out that way.

Isaiah Thomas and Kawhi would have to play out of their minds, which is certainly possible, to win a 7-game series against either.

[DukeTrinity11]

Shooting coach legend Chip Engelland is a former Duke player...WHATTTTTT???????

It's really true, when you graduate from Duke, you are set for life. #blessed

[Troublemaker]

Cleveland signed Dahntay for the playoffs for his locker room presence (http://www.cleveland.com/cavs/index.ssf/2017/04/cleveland_cavaliers_needed_dah.html):

"I think what Dahntay is is the voice we needed in the locker room," general manager David Griffin said Wednesday. "My fault. I think we underestimated the amount that really mattered. He was a big part of what we did in the playoffs because there was never any slippage. No matter who you are Dahntay is going to make it clear that you're not holding up your end of the bargain. We missed that."

[HK Dukie]

Cleveland signed Dahntay for the playoffs for his locker room presence (http://www.cleveland.com/cavs/index.ssf/2017/04/cleveland_cavaliers_needed_dah.html):

"I think what Dahntay is is the voice we needed in the locker room," general manager David Griffin said Wednesday. "My fault. I think we underestimated the amount that really mattered. He was a big part of what we did in the playoffs because there was never any slippage. No matter who you are Dahntay is going to make it clear that you're not holding up your end of the bargain. We missed that."

Whenever I hear about Dahntay I just feel the need to do some pushups. Can't figure out why :cool:

[JNort]

I see only 3 possible teams. Cavs in the east and Spurs or Warriors out west. The east is a joke and I see no way the GOAT doesn't make it out and roll into another finals. The West though is gonna be tough, even the Grizz have the fire power to beat some of the top teams.

[NSDukeFan]

I see only 3 possible teams. Cavs in the east and Spurs or Warriors out west. The east is a joke and I see no way the GOAT doesn't make it out and roll into another finals. The West though is gonna be tough, even the Grizz have the fire power to beat some of the top teams.

I don't think coach K, Bill Russell or Kareem will have any influence on who makes it out of the east.

[Troublemaker]

I would be a little surprised if we dont have a three-peat of the Finals between the Cavs and Warriors. I know the Spurs will get some looks, but the reigning conference champs know how to turn it on when they need to, and I would expect things to play out that way.

Isaiah Thomas and Kawhi would have to play out of their minds, which is certainly possible, to win a 7-game series against either.


I see only 3 possible teams. Cavs in the east and Spurs or Warriors out west. The east is a joke and I see no way the GOAT doesn't make it out and roll into another finals. The West though is gonna be tough, even the Grizz have the fire power to beat some of the top teams.

I think the Raptors, after the addition of Ibaka and PJ Tucker, have a better shot of beating Cleveland than the Spurs have of beating Golden St. Part of that is because the Warriors have such a great team. Plus, the Spurs have to get past the Rockets first, anyway. Toronto and Cleveland should meet in the second round.

[luburch]

I think the Raptors, after the addition of Ibaka and PJ Tucker, have a better shot of beating Cleveland than the Spurs have of beating Golden St. Part of that is because the Warriors have such a great team. Plus, the Spurs have to get past the Rockets first, anyway. Toronto and Cleveland should meet in the second round.

I personally don't see the Raptors as much of a threat. Especially if Lowry isn't healthy.

People can slander the East all they want, but the 6-8 seeds in the west are pretty awful too.

[Troublemaker]

I personally don't see the Raptors as much of a threat. Especially if Lowry isn't healthy.

People can slander the East all they want, but the 6-8 seeds in the west are pretty awful too.

Lowry's been back for 4 games and has looked very good. I kind of like that he's missed some time because I feel like he plays so hard that he's arrived at the playoffs beaten down physically the past few years. That said, Milwaukee's a tough first-round draw potentially, so re-integrating Lowry at this point isn't ideal.

Agreed that the lower seeds in the West aren't very good. We might not have a single first-round series upset this season (i.e. top 4 seeds all advance), which I believe I read in a Kevin Pelton column would be the first time that's happened in over a decade.

[JNort]

I personally don't see the Raptors as much of a threat. Especially if Lowry isn't healthy.

People can slander the East all they want, but the 6-8 seeds in the west are pretty awful too.

I gotta disagree, Thunder or Griz would run through the East if they were on that side. Not including the Cavs obviously

[Troublemaker]

Playoffs about to tip with Cavs/Pacers.

Let's see if Lebron, Kyrie and the Cavs can send a message that the regular season struggles are in the past, and the Playoff Cavs have shown up. Can a switch be flipped?

[dukelifer]

Playoffs about to tip with Cavs/Pacers.

Let's see if Lebron, Kyrie and the Cavs can send a message that the regular season struggles are in the past, and the Playoff Cavs have shown up. Can a switch be flipped?

Can a free throw be made?

[nmduke2001]

I know they probably won't win a single series this year, but long term I like Milwaukee . They start two rookies (the injury to Parker is the reason). The Greek freak is amazing and only getting better. I really like Thon Maker. I believe Maker will be a very good pro. If Parker can get healthy, this team is going to win a lot of games.

[Wahoo2000]

I know they probably won't win a single series this year, but long term I like Milwaukee . They start two rookies (the injury to Parker is the reason). The Greek freak is amazing and only getting better. I really like Thon Maker. I believe Maker will be a very good pro. If Parker can get healthy, this team is going to win a lot of games.

I think most of that good young core is under contract through 2020. During the broadcast they were also saying that a lot of people with the team (staff and players) think MAKER has the potential to be the best big in the league. If that pans out and they can hang on to Middleton/Antetokounmpo/Parker, that's a SICK core in 2-3 years.

[Wahoo2000]

I see only 3 possible teams. Cavs in the east and Spurs or Warriors out west. The east is a joke and I see no way the GOAT doesn't make it out and roll into another finals. The West though is gonna be tough, even the Grizz have the fire power to beat some of the top teams.

I don't think Jordan is playing.... (sorry guys, I had to do it).

[Troublemaker]

I know they probably won't win a single series this year, but long term I like Milwaukee . They start two rookies (the injury to Parker is the reason). The Greek freak is amazing and only getting better. I really like Thon Maker. I believe Maker will be a very good pro. If Parker can get healthy, this team is going to win a lot of games.


I think most of that good young core is under contract through 2020. During the broadcast they were also saying that a lot of people with the team (staff and players) think MAKER has the potential to be the best big in the league. If that pans out and they can hang on to Middleton/Antetokounmpo/Parker, that's a SICK core in 2-3 years.

That's showing some restraint, Wahoo2000, to talk about the Bucks and not prop up your boy Brogdon. He's been an excellent rookie this year who could win Rookie of the Year. At DBR, we have a healthy respect for Malcolm Brogdon, so next time, go ahead and give him some props.

[luburch]

I gotta disagree, Thunder or Griz would run through the East if they were on that side. Not including the Cavs obviously

As long as Westbrook is stat hunting, the Thunder aren't running through anyone.

Celtics and Raptors both lost game one. Cavs went down to the wire with the Pacers. Pretty nice start to the playoffs so far.

[flyingdutchdevil]

That's showing some restraint, Wahoo2000, to talk about the Bucks and not prop up your boy Brogdon. He's been an excellent rookie this year who could win Rookie of the Year. At DBR, we have a healthy respect for Malcolm Brogdon, so next time, go ahead and give him some props.

Gotta agree. Brogdon is the steal of that draft. Loved him in college, and he's clearly crushing it in the NBA.

Man...I wish we could get a Brogdon or two. Those players are indispensable.

[Troublemaker]

Celtics and Raptors both lost game one. Cavs went down to the wire with the Pacers. Pretty nice start to the playoffs so far.

Yeah, and the Jazz beat the Clips on the road despite Gorbert going down to injury on the first play of the game. That might've been the biggest upset of the Game 1s, all things considered. Great job by Quin to rally the troops.


Gotta agree. Brogdon is the steal of that draft. Loved him in college, and he's clearly crushing it in the NBA.

Man...I wish we could get a Brogdon or two. Those players are indispensable.

If you mean a 4-year star player (and/or retired jersey), we might have one yet in Grayson. If you mean a dominant defensive player that can guard 4 positions (maybe 5) very well, those are so rare. UVA might not get another one, and Duke probably has only had a couple during Coach K's career.

[nmduke2001]

Gotta agree. Brogdon is the steal of that draft. Loved him in college, and he's clearly crushing it in the NBA.

Man...I wish we could get a Brogdon or two. Those players are indispensable.

Of the 5 starters for Milwaukee in game 1, Brogdon was the third oldest.

Greek Freak 12/6/1994
Thon Maker 2/25/1997 (allegedly, though I tend to believe him)
Malcolm Brogdon 12/11/1992
Tony Snell 11/10/1991
Khris Middleton 8/12/1991

Others
Parker 3/15/1995 (injured)
Matthew Dellavedova 9/8/1990
Jason Terry 9/15/1977

[devildeac]

I don't think Jordan is playing... (sorry guys, I had to do it).

I think your ceiling went through the floor with that one. :p

[Wahoo2000]

That's showing some restraint, Wahoo2000, to talk about the Bucks and not prop up your boy Brogdon. He's been an excellent rookie this year who could win Rookie of the Year. At DBR, we have a healthy respect for Malcolm Brogdon, so next time, go ahead and give him some props.

Damn the need to spread more love around. That's as spork-worthy as it gets.

Yeah, I don't want to be that opposing fan that comes on only to tout my own guys, but I couldn't be happier for Malcolm. I'd strongly doubt even the MOST irrational Hoos fan would have predicted he'd be THIS good in the NBA so far. I really would have guessed his ceiling would be bench role player/3 and D specialist. Not a starting point guard on a playoff team and in the thick of the RoY race (and by far having the best year of any 2016 draftee).

Still blows my mind when I hear Kidd and the Bucks talk about his maturity and leadership (being a rookie and all), but I guess he is one of the older guys on the team, LOL.

[Wahoo2000]

If you mean a 4-year star player (and/or retired jersey), we might have one yet in Grayson. If you mean a dominant defensive player that can guard 4 positions (maybe 5) very well, those are so rare. UVA might not get another one, and Duke probably has only had a couple during Coach K's career.

I think Malcolm ended up being like a "guard" version of Battier's "forward". Brogdon always reminded me of Battier- both in eloquence and the way they carry themselves off the court, AND their ability to get in there and absolutely shut down multiple positions. I guess Shane ended up being more of a 3 & D specialist in the league, and Brogdon might be a bit more of a PG/playmaker/ballhandler. Still, I'd vote either of those guys into office - both seem to be Rhodes-scholar caliber individuals.

[Wahoo2000]

Of the 5 starters for Milwaukee in game 1, Brogdon was the third oldest.

Greek Freak 12/6/1994
Thon Maker 2/25/1997 (allegedly, though I tend to believe him)
Malcolm Brogdon 12/11/1992
Tony Snell 11/10/1991
Khris Middleton 8/12/1991

Others
Parker 3/15/1995 (injured)
Matthew Dellavedova 9/8/1990
Jason Terry 9/15/1977

Even if Maker is BS'ing on his age, I think even the detractors put him at about 2-3 years older, so at worst, he's only about 22. If Antetokounmpo adds a dependable jumper out to about 18-20 feet, he's going to be league MVP. Assuming a normal development track for the rest of the guys at/under 25, they're going to just start destroying the majority of the league. They definitely have the potential to be right up there with Golden State, Spurs, Cavs, etc.

[nmduke2001]

Even if Maker is BS'ing on his age, I think even the detractors put him at about 2-3 years older, so at worst, he's only about 22. If Antetokounmpo adds a dependable jumper out to about 18-20 feet, he's going to be league MVP. Assuming a normal development track for the rest of the guys at/under 25, they're going to just start destroying the majority of the league. They definitely have the potential to be right up there with Golden State, Spurs, Cavs, etc.

Giannis is the PG and he literally can dunk while still having his foot touch the ground (at least the follow through of the dunk).

http://www.sbnation.com/2017/4/16/15318696/giannis-antetokounmpo-rim-ground-same-time

[Troublemaker]

Two uninspiring wins by Cleveland so far. I just don't think they're going to be able to flip that switch on defense like last season, i.e. they're just a bad defensive team.

Tom Haberstroh‏Verified account @tomhaberstroh (https://twitter.com/tomhaberstroh) 3h3 hours ago (https://twitter.com/tomhaberstroh/status/854127855713890304)
FLIP THE SWITCH UPDATE
Cavs Game 1: 118.9 DRtg*
Cavs Game 2 (so far): 120.8 DRtg*

*would be league-worst over full season

[sagegrouse]

Even if Maker is BS'ing on his age, I think even the detractors put him at about 2-3 years older, so at worst, he's only about 22. If Antetokounmpo adds a dependable jumper out to about 18-20 feet, he's going to be league MVP. Assuming a normal development track for the rest of the guys at/under 25, they're going to just start destroying the majority of the league. They definitely have the potential to be right up there with Golden State, Spurs, Cavs, etc.

The guys I knew from the sticks where there weren't good birth records always added to their age -- making it easier to qualify for retirement programs at a younger age.

[CDu]

Giannis is the PG and he literally can dunk while still having his foot touch the ground (at least the follow through of the dunk).

http://www.sbnation.com/2017/4/16/15318696/giannis-antetokounmpo-rim-ground-same-time

To be fair, that is him barely touching the rim after pulling it down (both the rim and the support) on a dunk. His standing reach is certainly over 9 feet, but nowhere near 10 feet.

Still, for a SF (he does handle the ball, but defends bigger guys), he is freakishly long.

[westwall]

Odd stat in the Cavs-Pacers game: Kyrie scored 37 points on good shooting percentages but his +_ was 0 (zero), versus Kevin Love's + 17. Is poor defense by Kyrie the only explanation?

[superdave]

Odd stat in the Cavs-Pacers game: Kyrie scored 37 points on good shooting percentages but his +_ was 0 (zero), versus Kevin Love's + 17. Is poor defense by Kyrie the only explanation?

It's the ole! bullfighter defense.

Kyrie did have a nice steal and tipped an inbounds pass late in the game that helped a lot. Cavs D is not great, but they have gotten stops late in the first two games. They wont be able to coast on D in later rounds though.

[Indoor66]

It's the ole! bullfighter defense.

Kyrie did have a nice steal and tipped an inbounds pass late in the game that helped a lot. Cavs D is not great, but they have gotten stops late in the first two games. They wont be able to coast on D in later rounds though.

Doesn't that also illustrate the deficiency and relative value of the +/- stat?

[Troublemaker]

Doesn't that also illustrate the deficiency and relative value of the +/- stat?

In one game samples, for sure. BUT, Kyrie has never been an impressive plus-minus (or "net rating") player over the course of a season. Most likely reason is his poor defense.

[flyingdutchdevil]

Odd stat in the Cavs-Pacers game: Kyrie scored 37 points on good shooting percentages but his +_ was 0 (zero), versus Kevin Love's + 17. Is poor defense by Kyrie the only explanation?

Teague scored 23 on Kyrie. Off 12 shots. Yeah - Kyrie's D is terrible.

His O? Daaaaaaaaaaamn. Really amazing. Conclusion: Kyrie's college choice makes complete sense.

[FerryFor50]

Odd stat in the Cavs-Pacers game: Kyrie scored 37 points on good shooting percentages but his +_ was 0 (zero), versus Kevin Love's + 17. Is poor defense by Kyrie the only explanation?

No. Plus/minus is also a factor of who else is on the floor at the same time, as well as matchups.

Love didn't really have any offensive threats to deal with. Kyrie had to deal with Teague 1 on 1, while the Cavs double teamed Paul George.

The Cavs team D will likely be their downfall in these playoffs.

[FerryFor50]

On a side note, anyone see Fizdale's rant? Classic. "They're not going to rook us!"

http://deadspin.com/grizzlies-coach-dave-fizdale-goes-scorched-earth-on-ref-1794405895

[Troublemaker]

Teague scored 23 on Kyrie. Off 12 shots. Yeah - Kyrie's D is terrible.

His O? Daaaaaaaaaaamn. Really amazing. Conclusion: Kyrie's college choice makes complete sense.

Any concern that your Celtics are down 0-1 to the TNT Bulls (https://theringer.com/2017-nba-playoffs-chicago-bulls-tnt-national-tv-streak-b309a6a2900d)? Tonight's game is on TNT again.

[elvis14]

On a side note, anyone see Fizdale's rant? Classic. "They're not going to rook us!"

http://deadspin.com/grizzlies-coach-dave-fizdale-goes-scorched-earth-on-ref-1794405895

That's fantastic. I think that teams should just create GoFundMe pages for things like this to pay the fines because if I'm a Grizz fan, I'm pitching in!

[CDu]

No. Plus/minus is also a factor of who else is on the floor at the same time, as well as matchups.

Love didn't really have any offensive threats to deal with. Kyrie had to deal with Teague 1 on 1, while the Cavs double teamed Paul George.

The Cavs team D will likely be their downfall in these playoffs.

It actually has very little to do with matchups, because as you said it matters who else is on the floor. Both Love and Irving started together each half, and likely shared the floor for most of their minutes. So their +/- would be the same in the minutes that they shared, regardless of who they matched up against. Presumably they shared at least 20 minutes, and probably closer to 25-30 minutes. So the Cavs performed much worse in the minutes that Love was out and Irving was in compared with the minutes that Love was in and Irving was out.

Now, how much of that was directly due to Irving/Love, and how much was due to the rest of the guys on the floor? Hard to say. Love did play better than Irving, scoring 27 points on 7 FGA and adding 11 rebounds and a 3:2 assist:turnover ratio compared with Irving's 37 points on 24 FGA, 2 rebounds and 2:4 assist:turnover ratio. But there is also the fact that Irving's backup (Williams) was better than Love's backups (Frye and Jefferson).

[flyingdutchdevil]

Any concern that your Celtics are down 0-1 to the TNT Bulls (https://theringer.com/2017-nba-playoffs-chicago-bulls-tnt-national-tv-streak-b309a6a2900d)? Tonight's game is on TNT again.

A little. But the Celtics have little chance of making it to the Finals, despite being the 1 seed. The Cavs are going; it's set. Next year? Now that's the story line. Cavs will be one year older. Celtics will have Paul George, Isaiah Thomas, and Al Horford. Watch out.

[FerryFor50]

It actually has very little to do with matchups, because as you said it matters who else is on the floor. Both Love and Irving started together each half, and likely shared the floor for most of their minutes. So their +/- would be the same in the minutes that they shared, regardless of who they matched up against. Presumably they shared at least 20 minutes, and probably closer to 25-30 minutes. So the Cavs performed much worse in the minutes that Love was out and Irving was in compared with the minutes that Love was in and Irving was out.

Now, how much of that was directly due to Irving/Love, and how much was due to the rest of the guys on the floor? Hard to say. Love did play better than Irving, scoring 27 points on 7 FGA and adding 11 rebounds and a 3:2 assist:turnover ratio compared with Irving's 37 points on 24 FGA, 2 rebounds and 2:4 assist:turnover ratio. But there is also the fact that Irving's backup (Williams) was better than Love's backups (Frye and Jefferson).

Well, matchups matter, to a degree, because if your guy is better than the other guy's guy, then he's more likely to score. That affects plus/minus, but only when you're not on the floor at the same time. Since Love's plus/minus was way higher, that means they were likely not on the floor together for a decent amount of time, as they'd share plus/minus for being on the floor together.

Love and Irving were on the floor together for most of the 3rd quarter, when Love went off.

By comparison, LBJ's plus/minus was +5. He had 7 assists, 8 turnovers. But I wouldn't look at his plus/minus vs. Love's and say "LBJ stinks on defense."

In general, I ignore plus/minus. It doesn't tell you a ton, IMO.

[luburch]

A little. But the Celtics have little chance of making it to the Finals, despite being the 1 seed. The Cavs are going; it's set. Next year? Now that's the story line. Cavs will be one year older. Celtics will have Paul George, Isaiah Thomas, and Al Horford. Watch out.

Poor Paul George. Surrounded by a bunch of scrubs since Larry Bird has no idea what he's doing. Can't blame him for wanting out.

[flyingdutchdevil]

Poor Paul George. Surrounded by a bunch of scrubs since Larry Bird has no idea what he's doing. Can't blame him for wanting out.

Celtics can offer him a top 3 pick, Avery or Smart, and another dude for George. That's an amazing load. If I'm Indiana, I know I can't get anything better, especially as that pick translate to Fultz/Ball/Jackson/Tatum.

[luburch]

Celtics can offer him a top 3 pick, Avery or Smart, and another dude for George. That's an amazing load. If I'm Indiana, I know I can't get anything better, especially as that pick translate to Fultz/Ball/Jackson/Tatum.

Yeah, I think they have to move him this summer. Short of a major overhaul to the roster, he's not going to want to stay around. Ship him instead of letting him walk for nothing. Build around Turner and your draft pick. Throw money at Hayward to try and get him to come home.

[CDu]

Well, matchups matter, to a degree, because if your guy is better than the other guy's guy, then he's more likely to score. That affects plus/minus, but only when you're not on the floor at the same time. Since Love's plus/minus was way higher, that means they were likely not on the floor together for a decent amount of time, as they'd share plus/minus for being on the floor together.

Love and Irving were on the floor together for most of the 3rd quarter, when Love went off.

By comparison, LBJ's plus/minus was +5. He had 7 assists, 8 turnovers. But I wouldn't look at his plus/minus vs. Love's and say "LBJ stinks on defense."

In general, I ignore plus/minus. It doesn't tell you a ton, IMO.

It actually doesn't take that many minutes for there to be a big discrepancy in a single-game +/-. For example, Love was on the floor without Irving for a 10-3 run over 2 minutes late in the 3rd quarter. Otherwise, the two shared the floor for all of their second half minutes. Irving was +16 in the second half playing 14.5 minutes, Love was +23 in 16.5 minutes. Both played the entire first quarter and had a -11. So for the 26.5 minutes that they shared over the 1st, 3rd, and 4th quarters, the two were +5 together. Love was +7 in the 2 minutes that they didn't share the floor. So you can see how a few minutes' difference at key times can dramatically swing the +/-. If Irving was on the floor for a 4-point swing over a 1 minute to the negative and Love was in four another 6 point swing to the positive over a different minute or 2, we have a +17 difference despite sharing the court for all but about 5 minutes.

The matchups only matter when one is on the court and the other is off it. And they were only not sharing the court together for about 5-8 minutes or so.

[CDu]

Celtics can offer him a top 3 pick, Avery or Smart, and another dude for George. That's an amazing load. If I'm Indiana, I know I can't get anything better, especially as that pick translate to Fultz/Ball/Jackson/Tatum.

Would they really do that for one year of George? He has a player option after next year for only $20 million. Seems like he'd want to get paid after that. And there is no guarantee he would want to stay in Boston. Seems dangerous from Boston's perspective.

Of course, if they lose in the first round to the Bulls (and to Butler, whom they also failed to acquire at the deadline), maybe they'll be more willing to throw caution to the wind in a trade, even if they risk not keeping him long-term.

[flyingdutchdevil]

Would they really do that for one year of George? He has a player option after next year for only $20 million. Seems like he'd want to get paid after that. And there is no guarantee he would want to stay in Boston. Seems dangerous from Boston's perspective.

Of course, if they lose in the first round to the Bulls (and to Butler, whom they also failed to acquire at the deadline), maybe they'll be more willing to throw caution to the wind in a trade, even if they risk not keeping him long-term.

Most definitely they would. Because the Celtics are arguably the most enticing franchise to play for: excellent core, lots of young players, and the best young coach in the business. Not many teams with the flexibility to field a good team can make that. Actually, none can. The Celts are a weak #1 seed, although they are a #1 team nonetheless.

[Troublemaker]

A little. But the Celtics have little chance of making it to the Finals, despite being the 1 seed. The Cavs are going; it's set. Next year? Now that's the story line. Cavs will be one year older. Celtics will have Paul George, Isaiah Thomas, and Al Horford. Watch out.

I agree with you there, but at the same time, you definitely don't want to lose to an 8 seed. We'll see if they have a big response to the Game 1 loss tonight.

[CDu]

Most definitely they would. Because the Celtics are arguably the most enticing franchise to play for: excellent core, lots of young players, and the best young coach in the business. Not many teams with the flexibility to field a good team can make that. Actually, none can. The Celts are a weak #1 seed, although they are a #1 team nonetheless.

You made the argument for why someone might want to go play there (not sure I agree completely with it), not the argument for why the Celtics would want to give up such a big trade package for one year of Paul George.

[flyingdutchdevil]

You made the argument for why someone might want to go play there (not sure I agree completely with it), not the argument for why the Celtics would want to give up such a big trade package for one year of Paul George.

Fair point. I like George. I think he's a solid dude. I don't see him as a flight risk, especially if the Celts talk about before hand. Also, the Celts have a 2-3 year window with Isaiah and Horford. If you can add a top 10 player next year and fight for a title, then you do it. Just my two cents. That, or you draft Jackson/Tatum.

[CDu]

Fair point. I like George. I think he's a solid dude. I don't see him as a flight risk, especially if the Celts talk about before hand. Also, the Celts have a 2-3 year window with Isaiah and Horford. If you can add a top 10 player next year and fight for a title, then you do it. Just my two cents. That, or you draft Jackson/Tatum.

I just don't see the Celtics as a Paul George away from a title. They have problems. Problems that don't show up in the regular season, but do show up in the playoffs. Their best player is 5'9" and can't defend anyone. Against good teams, that is a problem. And they don't have a ton after that: an undersized center who isn't a great defender; an undersized SG; two mediocre PF options; a backup C who is short-armed and doesn't play defense; a backup PG who can't shoot at all. It's a team with good depth but lacking the top-end talent.

If I could describe them, I'd liken it to a baseball team with 5 #2/3 starters. They are deep enough to compete night in and night out during the regular season. But when you get to the playoffs, with more rest between games, the teams with the better top-end talent are going to win. I just don't see the top-end talent there. George would help, but I don't think he'd put them into the position of a true title contender.

In my opinion, the most interesting team out there among the nontraditional squads (Golden State, Cleveland, San Antonio) is the Wizards. They have the best young PG in the league in Wall. They have one of the best young SGs in the league in Beal. They have a very talented young SF in Porter. They are sort of the opposite of the Celtics though: they have the top-end talent, but don't have the depth (especially in the frontcourt).

[CDu]

The Celtics are in a nightmare matchup. They are facing a team with better top-end talent, more playoff experience, and the defensive chops necessary to compete. They also have the misfortune of facing a former player in Rondo and a player they failed to acquire in Butler. It is all culminating in an 0-2 deficit heading to Chicago.

[Troublemaker]

The Celtics are in a nightmare matchup. They are facing a team with better top-end talent, more playoff experience, and the defensive chops necessary to compete. They also have the misfortune of facing a former player in Rondo and a player they failed to acquire in Butler. It is all culminating in an 0-2 deficit heading to Chicago.

Yeah.

https://media.giphy.com/media/o7X29pJfwl9HW/giphy.gif

(This wouldn't be nearly as big an upset.)

[flyingdutchdevil]

What's happening isn't surprising. The Celts need more talent, and they want to win now. I don't think this series is over, but they aren't advancing past the Cavs. That's clear.

So, what do you do? Trade Smart (he flipped off the home crowd), their #1 pick (guaranteed top 4), and Jerebko/Olynyk for a top 15 player (Butler, George, Blake Griffin, etc). The Celts have the best trade chips in the NBA. Use em.

[CDu]

What's happening isn't surprising. The Celts need more talent, and they want to win now. I don't think this series is over, but they aren't advancing past the Cavs. That's clear.

So, what do you do? Trade Smart (he flipped off the home crowd), their #1 pick (guaranteed top 4), and Jerebko/Olynyk for a top 15 player (Butler, George, Blake Griffin, etc). The Celts have the best trade chips in the NBA. Use em.

I almost think you need to trade Thomas. He's a bit of fool's gold. Great volume scorer and a really effective player in the regular season. But in the playoffs, where teams really focus on matchups (and the teams are better in general), he's an absolute liability on defense. The Bulls have put him in repeated ball screens with Butler and Rondo/Grant, and created chaos on the floor as Boston tries to scramble to avoid getting Thomas iso'd on Butler. If they do somehow advance, the Wizards would do the same thing with Wall, and would likely eliminate them. If they magically advance to the ECF, Cleveland will destroy them with Irving/LeBron ball screens.

As talented a player as Thomas is, he's a real problem in the playoffs. He's too small and too ineffective defensively, which torpedoes them.

The problem, of course, is that he's also the only real threat they have on offense. So the Celtics are damned if they do, damned if they don't with regard to Thomas.

[JasonEvans]

I almost think you need to trade Thomas. He's a bit of fool's gold. Great volume scorer and a really effective player in the regular season. But in the playoffs, where teams really focus on matchups (and the teams are better in general), he's an absolute liability on defense. The Bulls have put him in repeated ball screens with Butler and Rondo/Grant, and created chaos on the floor as Boston tries to scramble to avoid getting Thomas iso'd on Butler. If they do somehow advance, the Wizards would do the same thing with Wall, and would likely eliminate them. If they magically advance to the ECF, Cleveland will destroy them with Irving/LeBron ball screens.

As talented a player as Thomas is, he's a real problem in the playoffs. He's too small and too ineffective defensively, which torpedoes them.

The problem, of course, is that he's also the only real threat they have on offense. So the Celtics are damned if they do, damned if they don't with regard to Thomas.

Here is what the Celtics should do...

Use the Nets #1 on a PG (Fultz or Ball if they get lucky in the lottery, Fox or Smith if they do not)
Trade Thomas to the Knicks for Melo and a future pick (or perhaps to some other team for an established scorer)

-Jason "speaking of Fool's Gold... Al Horford ain't worth the $26+ mil he's getting this season, is he? 3 more years after this one at ever escalating numbers" Evans

[CDu]

Here is what the Celtics should do...

Use the Nets #1 on a PG (Fultz or Ball if they get lucky in the lottery, Fox or Smith if they do not)
Trade Thomas to the Knicks for Melo and a future pick (or perhaps to some other team for an established scorer)

-Jason "speaking of Fool's Gold... Al Horford ain't worth the $26+ mil he's getting this season, is he? 3 more years after this one at ever escalating numbers" Evans

I agree, though I'd probably not make the deal for Melo specifically.

I'd also trade Smart, as he doesn't have value on a team with Thomas or with Fultz/Ball. You might find a PG-starved team willing to trade an asset in return. Preferably a worthwhile PF/C.

I think Bradley and Crowder are really nice complementary pieces, especially now that both seem able to make 3s as catch-and-shoot, 3-and-D guys. But they have a real shortage of scorers, and the one scorer that they do have can't defend at all.

I think they're better off keeping their pick and hoping that Jaylen Brown isn't a bust, and then building around those two picks plus whatever they can get for Thomas and Smart. Because I don't think trading for a George or Butler gets them over the top. They just become essentially a more solid version of what they are now: a 50-55 win team that can get to the ECF but can't compete with the true title contenders.

And yes, Horford is fools' gold. He's a tweener not unlike Greg Monroe: too small to be a true C, too slow to be a true PF in today's game. Good player, but not top-tier money good. Boston desperately needed to land a "big-name" free agent, so they overpaid for Horford. It was an obvious overpay at the time, and it's showing as such now that he's getting outplayed by Robin Lopez.

[JNort]

I almost think you need to trade Thomas. He's a bit of fool's gold. Great volume scorer and a really effective player in the regular season. But in the playoffs, where teams really focus on matchups (and the teams are better in general), he's an absolute liability on defense. The Bulls have put him in repeated ball screens with Butler and Rondo/Grant, and created chaos on the floor as Boston tries to scramble to avoid getting Thomas iso'd on Butler. If they do somehow advance, the Wizards would do the same thing with Wall, and would likely eliminate them. If they magically advance to the ECF, Cleveland will destroy them with Irving/LeBron ball screens.

As talented a player as Thomas is, he's a real problem in the playoffs. He's too small and too ineffective defensively, which torpedoes them.

The problem, of course, is that he's also the only real threat they have on offense. So the Celtics are damned if they do, damned if they don't with regard to Thomas.


Trade Thomas for another top 7 pick, grab Fultz/Ball and add Tatum or Jackson with the other top pick. Trade Smart and a 2nd for a later first rd pick and grab Giles for his upside and defensive presence.

If (obviously big If) all three pan out you now got good size across the board plus scoring off the bench and defense inside.

Fultz
Bradley
Crowder
Horford
Giles

Tatum/Jackson

That could be a scary team in 3 or 4 years

[pfrduke]

Warriors have no Durant. Klay, Steph, and Draymond combine to shoot just 13-40 from the field. Patrick McCaw led the team in minutes. And the Ws win by 30. Portland can't feel good about that one.

[subzero02]

Warriors have no Durant. Klay, Steph, and Draymond combine to shoot just 13-40 from the field. Patrick McCaw led the team in minutes. And the Ws win by 30. Portland can't feel good about that one.

Portland gave up... they played with absolutely no intensity in the 3rd quarter. Their 3s weren't falling and Mcgee crushed any momentum that could've developed. This series will not see a game 6, with or without Durant.

[JasonEvans]

Trade Thomas for another top 7 pick...

You ain't getting a top 7 pick for Thomas. No way. Everyone in the league sees his limitations and sees the Cs struggling right now. I just don't think Thomas' trade value is all that high at the moment. You could get a pick at the end of the lottery for Thomas, but not in the top 7 or so.

It is worth noting that thanks to the skyrocketing salary cap in recent years, draft picks with salaries that are more reasonable and can be controlled are really valuable. Isaiah Thomas is due to make $6.2 mil next season (a tiny salary in today's NBA) but becomes an unrestricted free agent after next year. Meaning that if you trade him for a draft pick the trade partner knows they are only getting him for 1 year and then likely have to pay him more than $20 mil a season to keep him around. That severely limits his trade value.

That's why I see him as an asset in a trade with a team that also needs to shed a veteran player, hopefully one that will fit better on the Celtics.

-Jason "it is also possible we are overreacting and the Celtics will right the ship and down the mediocre Bulls behind Thomas scoring 30+ per game... not exactly an unlikely scenario" Evans

[Wander]

-Jason "it is also possible we are overreacting and the Celtics will right the ship and down the mediocre Bulls behind Thomas scoring 30+ per game... not exactly an unlikely scenario" Evans

I'm always skeptical of talk of blowing up teams that are performing really well just because they don't win the championship. Aren't the Celtics, with the best young coach in the game, a #1 seed, a top 4 draft pick this year, and really good draft position the next few years, already pretty well poised to be the best long-term team in the East as Lebron fades with age? I guess along with the Wizards.

[Troublemaker]

I'm always skeptical of talk of blowing up teams that are performing really well just because they don't win the championship. Aren't the Celtics, with the best young coach in the game, a #1 seed, a top 4 draft pick this year, and really good draft position the next few years, already pretty well poised to be the best long-term team in the East as Lebron fades with age? I guess along with the Wizards.

Milwaukee has them easily beat for that role, imo. The Bucks will own the East pretty soon, which perhaps changes Boston's calculation to "go for it" next season.

That said, there is no obvious choice here. Building a championship contender in the NBA is really hard. I think front offices mostly luck into it more than plan for it.

[JNort]

I'm always skeptical of talk of blowing up teams that are performing really well just because they don't win the championship. Aren't the Celtics, with the best young coach in the game, a #1 seed, a top 4 draft pick this year, and really good draft position the next few years, already pretty well poised to be the best long-term team in the East as Lebron fades with age? I guess along with the Wizards.
I don't think so. I trust the coaching and management and I also like the role guys on the team. However they will never truly compete with Thomas on the team. I feel the same way about Kemba and the Hornets. Trading Thomas for just about anything imo would improve their long term chances of sustained success.

Wizards got the best chance of taking over after Bron is done. Bucks are up there as well as the Bulls, Knicks and Raptors

[Richard Berg]

I almost think you need to trade Thomas. He's a bit of fool's gold. Great volume scorer and a really effective player in the regular season. But in the playoffs, where teams really focus on matchups (and the teams are better in general), he's an absolute liability on defense. The Bulls have put him in repeated ball screens with Butler and Rondo/Grant, and created chaos on the floor as Boston tries to scramble to avoid getting Thomas iso'd on Butler. If they do somehow advance, the Wizards would do the same thing with Wall, and would likely eliminate them. If they magically advance to the ECF, Cleveland will destroy them with Irving/LeBron ball screens.

As talented a player as Thomas is, he's a real problem in the playoffs. He's too small and too ineffective defensively, which torpedoes them.

The problem, of course, is that he's also the only real threat they have on offense. So the Celtics are damned if they do, damned if they don't with regard to Thomas.
Come to the Spurs, IT. We know how to hide PGs on defense.

Aldridge + Patty Mills (sign & trade) for Thomas + Olynyk. About the same blend of offense/defense on both sides, but moving the strengths/liabilities into the "correct" (for their respective styles of play) positions on the court. Patty isn't much of a distributor, so Celtics can use their pick on a pass-first guard.

[JNort]

Come to the Spurs, IT. We know how to hide PGs on defense.

Aldridge + Patty Mills (sign & trade) for Thomas + Olynyk. About the same blend of offense/defense on both sides, but moving the strengths/liabilities into the "correct" (for their respective styles of play) positions on the court. Patty isn't much of a distributor, so Celtics can use their pick on a pass-first guard.
Whoah! That would be awful for the Spurs. Why would they want this? It makes them worse in every possible way

[Richard Berg]

We're going to lose Patty no matter what. Sign-n-trade is the only hope of getting value from his rights.

As for LMA, we don't need two wing forwards who score via isos & tough jumpers -- Kawhi has grown into (and exceeded) that same role. As #2 scorers go, someone who breaks down defenses, passes the rock, and hits 3s is a better fit for the system.

IT's defense is an issue, of course, but Pop has already shown the ability to build a league-best defense around Tony Parker (who barely guards 1/2 a person on a good night).

Biggest question is whether IT would be content to be #2. It took Kyrie awhile to transition from volume scorer to efficient-yet-deadly.

I don't know much about Olynyk. If Boston has another replacement-level center whom the Spurs would prefer in a 20mpg role (Zeller?), fine. Or both. We'll need as many big bodies as we can get when Dedmon leaves and Pau declines/retires. LMA has done an admirable job turning up the D intensity as his scoring faded, but he gets exposed when the other team has size. We need more length around the rim to limit opponents to 1 shot -- burns me up whenever we play great defense, force opponents' star players to miss, only to see some Steven Adams-type guy get the putback bucket.

----

okay, this is way more offseason chatter than I intended to write on a game day. 9:30pm can't come soon enough!

[Troublemaker]

Yeah, Cleveland isn't going to win the East if they continue playing defense like this. The trick to the East was to guess which team would capitalize if the Cavs continue to play like this. I kinda wish I had voted for Milwaukee. But they're so young...

[CDu]

Yeah, Cleveland isn't going to win the East if they continue playing defense like this. The trick to the East was to guess which team would capitalize if the Cavs continue to play like this. I kinda wish I had voted for Milwaukee. But they're so young...

Yeah, they are just a flat-out bad defensive team. JR Smith is the only starter who plays defense (LeBron has largely mailed it in on defense until the Finals for years now in an attempt to pace himself), and only Shumpert and Jefferson play defense off the bench. Thompson is at best meh on D, and Love, Irving, Korver, the Williamses, and Frye are awful on defense. Their defensive rating is a pretty accurate reflection of their quality.

[LasVegas]

Being from NE Ohio.......I'll never bet against a team with Lebron James. Never.

[CDu]

Being from NE Ohio....I'll never bet against a team with Lebron James. Never.

I would not be surprised if they make the Finals (because the East stinks). But they would get boatraced by the Warriors, Spurs, and possibly even the Rockets if they get there.

[richardjackson199]

How does Lebron shoot step back well-defended 3's better than free throws?

[LasVegas]

I would not be surprised if they make the Finals (because the East stinks). But they would get boatraced by the Warriors, Spurs, and possibly even the Rockets if they get there.

That's what people said on this board last year as well. I'll never count bron out until the final buzzer sounds.

[CDu]

That's what people said on this board last year as well. I'll never count bron out until the final buzzer sounds.

Last year was a better Cavs team and a less healthy and less talented Warriors team. And the Warriors win that series anyway if Green doesn't get suspended for Game 5.

[pfrduke]

Cleveland is closing out this game with LeBron-Williams-Smith and doing offense/defense rotations of Frye-Korver and Thompson-Shumpert. And blitzing the Pacers while doing so.

[CDu]

Cleveland is closing out this game with LeBron-Williams-Smith and doing offense/defense rotations of Frye-Korver and Thompson-Shumpert. And blitzing the Pacers while doing so.

The Pacers are Paul George and a bunch of hot garbage.

[dukelifer]

The Pacers are Paul George and a bunch of hot garbage.

Pacers may not recover from that one.

[Troublemaker]

That was awesome. The TNT guys said it was tied for the greatest comeback in NBA playoff history. It's a shame Kyrie (and Love) wasn't a bigger part of it, but still really cool to witness. Dahntay was cheering his butt off from the bench.

[LasVegas]

Last year was a better Cavs team and a less healthy and less talented Warriors team. And the Warriors win that series anyway if Green doesn't get suspended for Game 5.

And cav fans would say the year before should have an asterisk as well due to the k love injury. In the end, the ball don't lie. I watched people rip on the cavs last year on this board and then eat a bunch of crow when bron brought it back home. The cavs for sure have issues and the warriors added yet ANOTHER all star to make their total 4 so on paper.....sure the warriors should destroy anyone. But like I've said, I'll never count out one of the best (if not the best) to ever do it. Especially when he is playing for his home team. OH!

[moonpie23]

Last year was a better Cavs team and a less healthy and less talented Warriors team. And the Warriors win that series anyway if Green doesn't get suspended for Game 5.

sorry...i'm not buying that......he was only out one game......the cavs served them up for 3 in a row.....2 at their house.....so, i don't think it was a slam dunk had green been there.....

[pfrduke]

Meanwhile, the Bucks demolished the Raptors as Lowry and Derozan continue their annual playoff disappearing act. Milwaukee could pose big problems for the Cavs next round.

[gam7]

Interesting trivia question (no cheating):

Can you name the top two NBA coaches on the list of highest career playoff winning percentage?

[luburch]

Interesting trivia question (no cheating):

Can you name the top two NBA coaches on the list of highest career playoff winning percentage?

Is there a minimum for games played?

Ty Lue and Steve Kerr? Maybe David Blatt?

[CDu]

Interesting trivia question (no cheating):

Can you name the top two NBA coaches on the list of highest career playoff winning percentage?


Is there a minimum for games played?

Ty Lue and Steve Kerr? Maybe David Blatt?

If there is no minimum, then Fred Hoiberg (2-0) is at the top.

[Brockt10]

And cav fans would say the year before should have an asterisk as well due to the k love injury. In the end, the ball don't lie. I watched people rip on the cavs last year on this board and then eat a bunch of crow when bron brought it back home. The cavs for sure have issues and the warriors added yet ANOTHER all star to make their total 4 so on paper....sure the warriors should destroy anyone. But like I've said, I'll never count out one of the best (if not the best) to ever do it. Especially when he is playing for his home team. OH!

Kyrie was also out for all but game one. The cavs were also a Shump rim out at the buzzer from being up three games. I would say the cavs fans have a good argument

[CDu]

And cav fans would say the year before should have an asterisk as well due to the k love injury. In the end, the ball don't lie. I watched people rip on the cavs last year on this board and then eat a bunch of crow when bron brought it back home. The cavs for sure have issues and the warriors added yet ANOTHER all star to make their total 4 so on paper....sure the warriors should destroy anyone. But like I've said, I'll never count out one of the best (if not the best) to ever do it. Especially when he is playing for his home team. OH!

Not sure I am following your logic. You used last year's result as an argument as to why nobody should rule out this year's Cavs team. I pointed out that (1) last year's Cavs team was better than this year's team, (2) this year's Warriors team is healthier and much better than last year's Warriors playoff team, and (3) last year's Warriors team was up 3-1 and going home when Green was suspended, which changed the mo.

I am not sure how the injuries to the 2015 Cavs team are relevant here. Did the Cavs suffer from not having Love and Irving in 2015? Yes. How does that mean anything with regards to comparing last year to this year?

Feel free to hold out hope that your Cavs will flip a switch and become good enough this year. I am simply saying I am not buying it with this year's team. LeBron isn't infallible in Finals, as his 50/50 run in Miami shows.

[moonpie23]

LeBron isn't infallible in Finals, as his 50/50 run in Miami shows.

better than curry's 1/7 coupled with the bigget choke job in nba history....

50/50 on titles is pretty damn good...

[CDu]

better than curry's 1/7 coupled with the bigget choke job in nba history...

50/50 on titles is pretty damn good...

Firstly, Curry is 1-1 in the Finals, so 50/50. Secondly, I am by no means saying LeBron isn't great. I think he is arguably the greatest of all time, certainly on the short list. And of course he is a better player than Curry. I was merely pointing out he is far from unbeatable. And given how poorly Cleveland plays defense, I feel strongly that he will be beaten this year.

[elvis14]

Firstly, Curry is 1-1 in the Finals, so 50/50. Secondly, I am by no means saying LeBron isn't great. I think he is arguably the greatest of all time, certainly on the short list. And of course he is a better player than Curry. I was merely pointing out he is far from unbeatable. And given how poorly Cleveland plays defense, I feel strongly that he will be beaten this year.

Let's not pretend Curry was healthy in last years' finals either. Yes, the NBA letting LeBron suspend Green was a huge blow to the GSW but if you watched Curry play all season long and then watched him after the knee injury...well let's just say it's like Grayson after the foot/ankle injuries this season.

What is it about Lebron that makes him so hard to root for? I mean he might be the best ever. He's a good guy. He plays defense. I could go on and on. The logical side of my brain has him checking off just about every box on the 'pro' side you can check off and very few in the 'cons' box. And yet, just about every time I see him play I want him to lose. I can't explain it. Could just be my tendency to root for an underdog and he's so good he's never really an underdog. ???

[flyingdutchdevil]

Let's not pretend Curry was healthy in last years' finals either. Yes, the NBA letting LeBron suspend Green was a huge blow to the GSW but if you watched Curry play all season long and then watched him after the knee injury...well let's just say it's like Grayson after the foot/ankle injuries this season.

What is it about Lebron that makes him so hard to root for? I mean he might be the best ever. He's a good guy. He plays defense. I could go on and on. The logical side of my brain has him checking off just about every box on the 'pro' side you can check off and very few in the 'cons' box. And yet, just about every time I see him play I want him to lose. I can't explain it. Could just be my tendency to root for an underdog and he's so good he's never really an underdog. ???

I like Lebron. I want him to win...

[CDu]

Let's not pretend Curry was healthy in last years' finals either. Yes, the NBA letting LeBron suspend Green was a huge blow to the GSW but if you watched Curry play all season long and then watched him after the knee injury...well let's just say it's like Grayson after the foot/ankle injuries this season.

What is it about Lebron that makes him so hard to root for? I mean he might be the best ever. He's a good guy. He plays defense. I could go on and on. The logical side of my brain has him checking off just about every box on the 'pro' side you can check off and very few in the 'cons' box. And yet, just about every time I see him play I want him to lose. I can't explain it. Could just be my tendency to root for an underdog and he's so good he's never really an underdog. ???

Yeah, I mentioned earlier that Golden State was less healthy last year in the playoffs yhan this year. Curry was not right physically.

As for James, I think it has to do with a few things:
- the decision (not the choice itself, but the vanity play that was just a really bad look)
- while being squeaky-clean off-court, he is uber-sensitive to criticism, yet at times immature in his criticism of others (see the mocking of Dirk)
- his chippiness-yet-holier-than-thou attitude on the court and off it (numerous examples of this)
- some of his petulant moments over the years
- people don't always like to root for the overdog, and James hasn't been an underdog since his first Cleveland stint

I will add that he doesn't really play defense all that much anymore. Just in spurts. For years now he has taken the easiest defensive assignment until late in close playoff games so that he can rest for offense. Which is understandable given his offensive load he carries. He is still a quite capable defender when motivated to do it. But that motivation really is limited to crunch time in the playoffs.

Not all of the above list is rational. But sports fandom isn't rational.

[moonpie23]

And yet, just about every time I see him play I want him to lose. I can't explain it.

this is what i don't understand.....with the exception of a bad PR move(The Decision) the guy with the stellar talent has had EVERY opportunity to fall down and go boom.....a 90M Shoe deal at 19? every person of professional note telling him he's the greatest thing the sport has ever scene. off the chart athleticism.........the constant comparisons to jordan......money, fame fortune......and what has he done wrong?


nothing......no arrests, no gambling, no womanizng, no drugs, no alcohol problems......just str8 balling and living life as a great example of what an athlete role-model should be.....


i just don't get it...

[Ichabod Drain]

Let's not pretend Curry was healthy in last years' finals either. Yes, the NBA letting LeBron suspend Green was a huge blow to the GSW but if you watched Curry play all season long and then watched him after the knee injury...well let's just say it's like Grayson after the foot/ankle injuries this season.

What is it about Lebron that makes him so hard to root for? I mean he might be the best ever. He's a good guy. He plays defense. I could go on and on. The logical side of my brain has him checking off just about every box on the 'pro' side you can check off and very few in the 'cons' box. And yet, just about every time I see him play I want him to lose. I can't explain it. Could just be my tendency to root for an underdog and he's so good he's never really an underdog. ???

Lebron suspended Green? I could have sworn it was the NBA but my memory is not what it used to be.

[Troublemaker]

Feel free to hold out hope that your Cavs will flip a switch and become good enough this year. I am simply saying I am not buying it with this year's team. LeBron isn't infallible in Finals, as his 50/50 run in Miami shows.

The Cavs will have to flip a switch to a higher level just to make it out of the East. Through 144 minutes (3 games), the Pacers have played the Cavs way too close for comfort despite Cleveland being up 3-0. Now that's bit misleading on my part because the final 24 minutes was dominance by Cleveland and what this series should've looked like from the start since, as you noted upthread, Indiana is Paul George + nothing else (and, as I noted upthread, the Cavs probably got lucky to draw the 7-seed Pacers instead of the 8-seed Bulls). Maybe those final 24 minutes mean Cleveland is ready to play much better going forward. Or maybe it was just a blip. We'll find out.

[CDu]

The Cavs will have to flip a switch to a higher level just to make it out of the East. Through 144 minutes (3 games), the Pacers have played the Cavs way too close for comfort despite Cleveland being up 3-0. Now that's bit misleading on my part because the final 24 minutes was dominance by Cleveland and what this series should've looked like from the start since, as you noted upthread, Indiana is Paul George + nothing else (and, as I noted upthread, the Cavs probably got lucky to draw the 7-seed Pacers instead of the 8-seed Bulls). Maybe those final 24 minutes mean Cleveland is ready to play much better going forward. Or maybe it was just a blip. We'll find out.

Yeah, make no mistake: the Pacers are in competition with the Blazers for the worst team in the playoffs. And honestly, I think they'd "win" that competition. Paul George is amazing... but the rest of that team is not good at all. And George is basically a very poor man's version of LeBron James. Which means that Indiana's best player is not even as good as the guy he would be matched up against. Indiana doesn't pose any threat to anyone in a series.

It is certainly possible that Cleveland could be playing possum and will flip a switch against the better teams. But nothing they've done so far this season or this playoff series suggests that they clearly will be able to do so. They could well get out of the East, simply because the East is abysmal this year. But there is a big dropoff from the top teams in the West to the top teams in the East this year. Much moreso than in previous years, where at least the Heat or Cavs were really good teams all season.

[gam7]

If there is no minimum, then Fred Hoiberg (2-0) is at the top.


Is there a minimum for games played?

Ty Lue and Steve Kerr? Maybe David Blatt?

Good point re: Hoiberg... after Hoiberg, luburch has it - Ty Lue and ... David Blatt.

[CDu]

Good news for theCeltics: Rondo out indefinitely with a broken thumb. Let's see if they can survive their series against the now-depleted Bulls.

[LasVegas]

Not sure I am following your logic. You used last year's result as an argument as to why nobody should rule out this year's Cavs team. I pointed out that (1) last year's Cavs team was better than this year's team, (2) this year's Warriors team is healthier and much better than last year's Warriors playoff team, and (3) last year's Warriors team was up 3-1 and going home when Green was suspended, which changed the mo.

I am not sure how the injuries to the 2015 Cavs team are relevant here. Did the Cavs suffer from not having Love and Irving in 2015? Yes. How does that mean anything with regards to comparing last year to this year?

Feel free to hold out hope that your Cavs will flip a switch and become good enough this year. I am simply saying I am not buying it with this year's team. LeBron isn't infallible in Finals, as his 50/50 run in Miami shows.

Let me try to clarify my stance on this one.
1) I don't like how cav fans say the 2015 title was "stolen" due to injuries and I don't like how warrior fans say the same thing about the 2016 title with the suspension and injury to Steph. This stuff just happens in sports. It is what it is. Winners gonna win and losers gonna make excuses.

2) The warriors have become a way better team than the cavs. Largely due to adding yet another all star. Any team with 4 all stars SHOULD run through the playoffs easily. But again, stuff happens. Cavs could turn it up or maybe a warrior player gets injured. In any case, just about everyone counted out the cavs last year and especially some on this board. But look what occurred. Cavs got hot, draymond gets suspended, steph not 100%. Could the cavs bomb and get swept eventually or not even make it to the finals? Absolutely. But I'm not ready to count the cavs out and I never will be when they have LBJ on the sidelines still dropping a 41/13/12 game. Just look at this his stats over the last 4 playoff games. It's out of this world.

3)This board seems to have a weird vendetta against the cavs and Lebron. Not sure why. He is an outstanding person who has given so much to his hometown. More so than probably 99% of the players in the league. He also has been in the spotlight since the young age of 16 and hasn't been in any trouble and has had the same wife since he got drafted. His is the best role model kids could ask for.

[dukelifer]

Good news for theCeltics: Rondo out indefinitely with a broken thumb. Let's see if they can survive their series against the now-depleted Bulls.

Wow- huge loss for the Bulls

[CDu]

Let me try to clarify my stance on this one.
1) I don't like how cav fans say the 2015 title was "stolen" due to injuries and I don't like how warrior fans say the same thing about the 2016 title with the suspension and injury to Steph. This stuff just happens in sports. It is what it is. Winners gonna win and losers gonna make excuses.

2) The warriors have become a way better team than the cavs. Largely due to adding yet another all star. Any team with 4 all stars SHOULD run through the playoffs easily. But again, stuff happens. Cavs could turn it up or maybe a warrior player gets injured. In any case, just about everyone counted out the cavs last year and especially some on this board. But look what occurred. Cavs got hot, draymond gets suspended, steph not 100%. Could the cavs bomb and get swept eventually or not even make it to the finals? Absolutely. But I'm not ready to count the cavs out and I never will be when they have LBJ on the sidelines still dropping a 41/13/12 game. Just look at this his stats over the last 4 playoff games. It's out of this world.

3)This board seems to have a weird vendetta against the cavs and Lebron. Not sure why. He is an outstanding person who has given so much to his hometown. More so than probably 99% of the players in the league. He also has been in the spotlight since the young age of 16 and hasn't been in any trouble and has had the same wife since he got drafted. His is the best role model kids could ask for.

That doesn't explain how 2015 is relevant when discussing using 2016 to project what we think will happen in 2017.

I didn't say the Cavs stole the 2016 series. Heck, I didn't bring up 2016 at all. You alluded to 2016 as evidence not to write LeBron off. My response was that (a) the 2016 Cavs team was better than this year's Cavs team, (b) the 2017 Warriors team is better and now healthier than the 2016 Warriors playoff team, and (c) the 2016 team caught a few breaks (the Curry injury, the Green suspension) that helped them come back from the brink in that series.

Is it possible that the Warriors get hurt again? Sure. Is it possible that Green gets suspended again? Sure. But that is largely what needed to happen for last year's Cavs to win. And last year's Cavs were better than this year's Cavs.

Would a healthy Cavs team have won it in 2015? Quite probably. Would a healthy Warriors team have won it last year? Quite probably. But I am not complaining about either outcome. I am not a fan of either team - I am just pointing out why I think last year's result isn't some kind of evidence that this year's Cavs team can do anything.

As for "vendetta against LeBron? Really? This is sports. We are fans of of teams. Sports aren't rational. That being said, nothing in my analysis on this topic has anything to do with LeBron specifically. It is sbout the Cavs, who simply haven't been that good this year.

[LasVegas]

That doesn't explain how 2015 is relevant when discussing using 2016 to project what we think will happen in 2017.

I didn't say the Cavs stole the 2016 series. Heck, I didn't bring up 2016 at all. You alluded to 2016 as evidence not to write LeBron off. My response was that (a) the 2016 Cavs team was better than this year's Cavs team, (b) the 2017 Warriors team is better and now healthier than the 2016 Warriors playoff team, and (c) the 2016 team caught a few breaks (the Curry injury, the Green suspension) that helped them come back from the brink in that series.

Is it possible that the Warriors get hurt again? Sure. Is it possible that Green gets suspended again? Sure. But that is largely what needed to happen for last year's Cavs to win. And last year's Cavs were better than this year's Cavs.

Would a healthy Cavs team have won it in 2015? Quite probably. Would a healthy Warriors team have won it last year? Quite probably. But I am not complaining about either outcome. I am not a fan of either team - I am just pointing out why I think last year's result isn't some kind of evidence that this year's Cavs team can do anything.

As for "vendetta against LeBron? Really? This is sports. We are fans of of teams. Sports aren't rational. That being said, nothing in my analysis on this topic has anything to do with LeBron specifically. It is sbout the Cavs, who simply haven't been that good this year.

I'm kind of just stating my stance on the issue as a whole. Not trying to make it seem like you said certain things. So sorry if it came off like that. As for a vendetta, it's just weird to me because from what I always could tell, usually you only dislike a player if your team is their rivals....or if that player is a terrible human being. I just find it sad that many dislike lbj when he couldn't be a better guy/player. That's all.

[CajunDevil]

Let me try to clarify my stance on this one.
1) I don't like how cav fans say the 2015 title was "stolen" due to injuries and I don't like how warrior fans say the same thing about the 2016 title with the suspension and injury to Steph. This stuff just happens in sports. It is what it is. Winners gonna win and losers gonna make excuses.

2) The warriors have become a way better team than the cavs. Largely due to adding yet another all star. Any team with 4 all stars SHOULD run through the playoffs easily. But again, stuff happens. Cavs could turn it up or maybe a warrior player gets injured. In any case, just about everyone counted out the cavs last year and especially some on this board. But look what occurred. Cavs got hot, draymond gets suspended, steph not 100%. Could the cavs bomb and get swept eventually or not even make it to the finals? Absolutely. But I'm not ready to count the cavs out and I never will be when they have LBJ on the sidelines still dropping a 41/13/12 game. Just look at this his stats over the last 4 playoff games. It's out of this world.

3)This board seems to have a weird vendetta against the cavs and Lebron. Not sure why. He is an outstanding person who has given so much to his hometown. More so than probably 99% of the players in the league. He also has been in the spotlight since the young age of 16 and hasn't been in any trouble and has had the same wife since he got drafted. His is the best role model kids could ask for.

Yes! Yes! Yes!

The Cavs season "started" last weekend. Don't be fooled by their lousy defensive stats during the year. Given the key new pieces (Korver, Deron Willams) and the coming-back-from-injury pieces (JR and to a less extent - Love), the Cavs will use the Indiana and Mil/Tor series to work out the kinks, especially on the defensive side. We've already seen the switch being flipped two times during this series (parts of Game 2, and second half of Game 3) - where the D ratcheted up a notch, created turnovers, played with energy, rebounded, and got big stops. Also, keep sleeping on Kyrie's D to your own peril... when it counts - he defends, and defends well. Now, I wish he'd play every play on the defensive end with the same intensity as he does in the clutch, but perhaps that is all part of the maturation process.

And after last year, no one should ever count out LeBron...

[CDu]

I'm kind of just stating my stance on the issue as a whole. Not trying to make it seem like you said certain things. So sorry if it came off like that. As for a vendetta, it's just weird to me because from what I always could tell, usually you only dislike a player if your team is their rivals...or if that player is a terrible human being. I just find it sad that many dislike lbj when he couldn't be a better guy/player. That's all.

1. I would actually argue that DBR is more pro-LeBron than most places. In part because he is a teammate of Irving. But even more generally than that, I'd say most are cool with him.

2. I don't know that I'd say "couldn't be a better guy". I certainly don't think LeBron is a bad guy (far from it), and he's certainly better than many in the NBA. But I think that's a bit of an overstatement about his personality/character to say he couldn't be a a better guy. Couldn't be a better player? On that I agree. He's as good as one can reasonably expect a player to be.

3. I'm a Bulls fan. So my lack of interest in cheering for LeBron should be obvious. Between his time with the Heat and his time with the Cavs in this second run, I simply cannot cheer for him to do well. Just like I cheered against Battier (who is an example of a guy who is closer to the "couldn't be a better guy" statement) when he joined the Heat. Just like I am now compelled to cheer against Irving now that his team is on the better end of the rivalry.

[LasVegas]

2. I don't know that I'd say "couldn't be a better guy". I certainly don't think LeBron is a bad guy (far from it), and he's certainly better than many in the NBA. But I think that's a bit of an overstatement about his personality/character to say he couldn't be a a better guy. Couldn't be a better player? On that I agree. He's as good as one can reasonably expect a player to be.

We will have to agree to disagree on this. Maybe being from NE Ohio has clouded my judgement but what Lebron has done for his hometown is a beautiful thing to see. He is a hero to so many in that area. Like he says, I'm just a kid from Akron.

[CDu]

We will have to agree to disagree on this. Maybe being from NE Ohio has clouded my judgement but what Lebron has done for his hometown is a beautiful thing to see. He is a hero to so many in that area. Like he says, I'm just a kid from Akron.

Being philanthropic and being a "couldn't be a better guy" are two different things. James has done wonderful things for his community. So did Aaron Hernandez. That's not to say the two are at all similar as human beings - just noting that philanthropy can come from people across the spectrum of character.

Like I said - I don't think James is a bad guy. Far from it. I think he's a relatively worthwhile role model and Ohioans should be proud of him. But I do think there are plenty of examples of better guys in sports. Just like there are plenty (and certainly more) of examples of worse guys.

[rsvman]

I think it would be somewhat ironic for a Duke fan to root against LeBron because he's too good, or because they can't fathom rooting for the "overdog." On the other hand, if you dislike LeBron for those reasons, I guess you can empathize with Duke haters.......so there's that.

[LasVegas]

Being philanthropic and being a "couldn't be a better guy" are two different things. James has done wonderful things for his community. So did Aaron Hernandez. That's not to say the two are at all similar as human beings - just noting that philanthropy can come from people across the spectrum of character.

Like I said - I don't think James is a bad guy. Far from it. I think he's a relatively worthwhile role model and Ohioans should be proud of him. But I do think there are plenty of examples of better guys in sports. Just like there are plenty (and certainly more) of examples of worse guys.

Good point. Like I said, maybe my judgement is clouded in regards to Lebron. He is near Demigod status for the people of Ohio.

[CDu]

Being philanthropic and being a "couldn't be a better guy" are two different things. James has done wonderful things for his community. So did Aaron Hernandez. That's not to say the two are at all similar as human beings - just noting that philanthropy can come from people across the spectrum of character.

Like I said - I don't think James is a bad guy. Far from it. I think he's a relatively worthwhile role model and Ohioans should be proud of him. But I do think there are plenty of examples of better guys in sports. Just like there are plenty (and certainly more) of examples of worse guys.

And just to make clear that this isn't an anti-LeBron thing, I willrelate it to some Bulls players. Michael Jordan has done a ton of philanthropy. He has never been arrested. He is, by pretty much all accounts, a huge d-bag of a person. Rajon Rondo is considered a homophobe, a coach-killer, and all-around bad guy, right? Check out the inner-city work he has done everywhere he has played. Wade is a petulant sulker when he doesn't get his way, and has done many punkish things on the court. He is otherwise squeaky-clean and philanthropic off-court.

I don't consider any of those guys to be the best examples of human character. I don't rate them equally in terms of their character, but I think there are better people out there in sports. Just like I think there are better people out there in sports than James (whose character I would probably list at the top of those four guys, btw.

[CDu]

I think it would be somewhat ironic for a Duke fan to root against LeBron because he's too good, or because they can't fathom rooting for the "overdog." On the other hand, if you dislike LeBron for those reasons, I guess you can empathize with Duke haters....so there's that.

Like I said, sports fandom is, basically by definition, not rational. Many many Duke fans despise the Yankees and Red Sox for example.


Good point. Like I said, maybe my judgement is clouded in regards to Lebron. He is near Demigod status for the people of Ohio.

And to be clear, it is perfectly fine to admire LeBron. And I can understand the local adulation. Especially for a community that - prior to LeBron - had really been suffering both socioeconomically and sports-wise.

He seems to be a pretty good guy who stays out of trouble and gives back to the community. One could certainly do worse as a local sports hero. The Bulls certainly have not had that guy.

[Billy Dat]

RE: Lebron

The stink from the Decision and the follow-up Miami Pep Rally will always follow him to some degree. My Dad and my Uncle, two huge hoops fans in their 70s, can't stand his on-court posturing, which doesn't bother me (I find all that stuff fairly amusing and inconsequential, and he's obviously not the only one who does it). I think another strike against him is the drama that seems to flow from his deliberate social media and sports media "subtweets" of his teammates and management, which show a Machiavellian side not uncommon to some leaders. Again, no one is perfect.

I am in the camp that I believe the Cavs are making the Finals until I see some other team is celebrating a series victory over them. Until that time, barring injury, I expect them to find a way and, again, barring injury, lose in fairly decisive fashion to the Warriors.

[CDu]

Wow- huge loss for the Bulls

Yeah, it completely changes the series. Rondo was turning back the clock in this series. He was a maestro out there: orchestrating the game on both ends of the floor. Without him, it puts a lot more pressure on Butler and Wade. The Bulls will go with Jerian Grant and Michael Carter-Williams as big defensive-minded guards at PG. But they don't have nearly the bball IQ or court awareness that Rondo has. The Bulls can still win this series, but it will be difficult and I wouldn't call it terribly likely. And they don't stand a chance if they do happen to hold on in this series.

[elvis14]

Yeah, I mentioned earlier that Golden State was less healthy last year in the playoffs yhan this year. Curry was not right physically.

As for James, I think it has to do with a few things:
- the decision (not the choice itself, but the vanity play that was just a really bad look)
- while being squeaky-clean off-court, he is uber-sensitive to criticism, yet at times immature in his criticism of others (see the mocking of Dirk)
- his chippiness-yet-holier-than-thou attitude on the court and off it (numerous examples of this)
- some of his petulant moments over the years
- people don't always like to root for the overdog, and James hasn't been an underdog since his first Cleveland stint

I will add that he doesn't really play defense all that much anymore. Just in spurts. For years now he has taken the easiest defensive assignment until late in close playoff games so that he can rest for offense. Which is understandable given his offensive load he carries. He is still a quite capable defender when motivated to do it. But that motivation really is limited to crunch time in the playoffs.

Not all of the above list is rational. But sports fandom isn't rational.

Thanks CDu, that's a helpful post. That last sentence is the truth.


this is what i don't understand...with the exception of a bad PR move(The Decision) the guy with the stellar talent has had EVERY opportunity to fall down and go boom...a 90M Shoe deal at 19? every person of professional note telling him he's the greatest thing the sport has ever scene. off the chart athleticism...the constant comparisons to jordan...money, fame fortune...and what has he done wrong?


nothing...no arrests, no gambling, no womanizng, no drugs, no alcohol problems...just str8 balling and living life as a great example of what an athlete role-model should be...


i just don't get it...

moonpie23, I agree with everything you've said here. I'm almost making fun of myself here. Sure there are negatives but logically the positives outweigh greatly and yet...when I watch a Cavs game my illogical side takes over and I want him to lose (even with Kyrie right next to him and I love KI).


Lebron suspended Green? I could have sworn it was the NBA but my memory is not what it used to be.

No worries, my memory of that is good enough for both of us :-)


I think it would be somewhat ironic for a Duke fan to root against LeBron because he's too good, or because they can't fathom rooting for the "overdog." On the other hand, if you dislike LeBron for those reasons, I guess you can empathize with Duke haters...so there's that.

That's a good point. I hope we are so good over the next 5 years that people get back to hating us more than ever.


RE: Lebron

The stink from the Decision and the follow-up Miami Pep Rally will always follow him to some degree. My Dad and my Uncle, two huge hoops fans in their 70s, can't stand his on-court posturing, which doesn't bother me (I find all that stuff fairly amusing and inconsequential, and he's obviously not the only one who does it). I think another strike against him is the drama that seems to flow from his deliberate social media and sports media "subtweets" of his teammates and management, which show a Machiavellian side not uncommon to some leaders. Again, no one is perfect.

I am in the camp that I believe the Cavs are making the Finals until I see some other team is celebrating a series victory over them. Until that time, barring injury, I expect them to find a way and, again, barring injury, lose in fairly decisive fashion to the Warriors.

I do think that the stink from the decision is part of the equation. I didn't care much for that. I'm agree 100% that I won't believe the Cavs won't make the finals until I see LeBron in street clothes watching game 1 between two other teams.

[JasonEvans]

Wizards got the best chance of taking over after Bron is done. Bucks are up there as well as the Bulls, Knicks and Raptors

Whoa... not sure I agree with the above. First of all, "after Bron is done" is at least 2-3 years from now, right? So, with that in mind...

Bucks - Totally agree that they are poised to move up in the conference. With Freak, Jabari, Middleton, Monroe, and Brogdon all under 26 years of age, this is a team that will do nothing but get better for several years. They are in great shape, though salary cap could start to be a problem in a couple years as they have to give Jabari the max and Monroe's deal comes due after next season (Monroe actually has a player option so he could opt out after this season). Still, if I had to bet on one team to take over the East after Bron retires, it is probably the Bucks.

Bulls - What do you like about their roster? Rondo and Wade are pretty close to over-the-hill. Both of their contracts are up after next season, which will free up a ton of cap space, but there's just not much there that feels championship caliber other than Butler. I guess having cap space will mean they can sign some good free agents, but counting on getting 2 or 3 stud free agents does not feel like the best method of predicting a future champion.

Raptors - Solid choice but they have cap issues. Lowry and Ibaka are both free agents this summer. Lowry is going to get a max deal from someone and I'd say it is far from certain that he will go back to Toronto. If they lose him, it is a major hit. By the way, Lowry is 31 and it would not be unlikely for his production to start to taper off in the next couple years. I love what they can get in the future from Valanciunas, he's 24 and under contract (at more than $16 mil a season) until 2020. He and DeRozan are a nice core (if they lose Lowry) but adding more players through free agency will be tough due to their cap situation. Paying $15 mil a year for Demare Carroll is a problem.

Knicks - Other than Porzingas (a very nice young player, but still...) is there anything here that screams "we are going to be good in 2 years!!"?? I don't see it at all. Rose is probably leaving to free agency this summer, he says he wants to go somewhere that he can win and that ain't the Knicks. They have all but kicked Melo out the door and I doubt they will get much in return for him if they even can trade him. The team looks largely dysfunctional and many players seem to be at odds with their "genius" GM. This is a club that will be paying more than $30 mil a year combined to Courtney Lee and Joakim Noah until 2020... whew.

The team you did not mention that I think has a bright future is the Heat. I wish Dragic (30) and Whiteside (27) were a bit younger, but those two form a great outside-inside core. We all love Winslow's potential going forward and he's on a cheap rookie deal for at least 2 more years. They are either going to get a ton of cap space from Chris Bosh not coming back or he will come back and give them an All-NBA quality player. Plus, they played the best ball of any team in the East the second half of the season. Trust me, the Celtics are THRILLED the Heat missed the playoffs and the Bulls made it. I fully expect the Heat to be top 4 in the East next season (along with Milwaukee, Boston, and the Cavs) and be near the top of the conference for the next several years at least. They have one of the best coaches in the game and a front-office that seems to make really smart deals. They are also a very attractive free agent destination. I'm not sure any team is as well suited as the Heat going forward.

-Jason "JMO, which means I will probably be dead wrong" Evans

[elvis14]

Knicks - Other than Porzingas (a very nice young player, but still...) is there anything here that screams "we are going to be good in 2 years!!"??



Two things the Knicks have going for them: MP3, LT :)

[CDu]

Yeah, if the Bulls had any sort of sure-fire young talent, I'd buy them as an eventual contender. But aside from Butler they really don't have anyone who I can confidently say will be good in 2-3 years. Grant has shown occasional moments, but appears to be a role player. Portis has the potential to be a stretch big, including some monstrous games here and there. But his consistency is nonexistent. Mirotic is sort of the same thing as Portis. Zipser looks like a solid role player in the making, but not a difference-maker. After that? I'm not sure there is another guy on the roster that is even certain to be in the league in 2-3 years. And that includes Wade and Rondo.

I would say that the Wizards and the Bucks are the two most likely candidates to ascend to the throne. The Celtics could be as well if they can make the right moves (as we discussed earlier) over the next year or so.

[JasonEvans]

I would say that the Wizards and the Bucks are the two most likely candidates to ascend to the throne. The Celtics could be as well if they can make the right moves (as we discussed earlier) over the next year or so.

What do you not like about the Heat? I really love their future. They went 30-11 in the second half of the season. That's pretty darn impressive and their core is both young and under contract for a while.

[WillJ]

What do you not like about the Heat? I really love their future. They went 30-11 in the second half of the season. That's pretty darn impressive and their core is both young and under contract for a while.


Also, the Heat might have some economic advantages - this is from an economics paper from a University of Illinois professor:

State- and local-income tax rates differ across locations, giving low-tax teams a competitive advantage when bidding for players. I investigate the effect of income tax rates on professional team performance between 1977 and 2014 using data from professional baseball, basketball, football, and hockey in the United States. Regressing income tax rates on winning percentage, I find little evidence of income tax effects prior to 1994, but since then a ten percent increase in income taxes is associated with a three percent decline in winning percentage. A robustness check using within state variation in income taxes affirms this result. The income tax rate effect varies by league, with the largest effect in professional basketball, where teams in states without income tax win 4.5 more games each year relative to high-tax states. The income tax effect is smallest in major league baseball, which could be explained by greater team payroll disparity. Placebo tests using college team performance find no evidence of an income tax effect.

[Indoor66]

What do you not like about the Heat? I really love their future. They went 30-11 in the second half of the season. That's pretty darn impressive and their core is both young and under contract for a while.

Let's Go Heat!😎

[CDu]

What do you not like about the Heat? I really love their future. They went 30-11 in the second half of the season. That's pretty darn impressive and their core is both young and under contract for a while.

I just don't see the superstars needed to be among the elite. Their best offensive player right now is Dragic, who is 30. Whiteside is like a lesser version of prime Dwight Howard: good defensively, not good offensively. And everyone else is nice, but nothing special. And they won't likely be getting much help in the draft.

I think they will be decent, but not great. Maybe if Winslow can become a stud on offense like Paul George or Jimmy Butler then they will have something. But as of now I see them as a second-tier team.

[JetpackJesus]

Came across this article (http://www.latimes.com/sports/clippers/la-sp-clippers-jazz-20170420-story.html) today discussing how the Jazz have been gameplanning specifically to contian JJ. It's an interesting read about his role on the Clippers and how important he is to what they do.

[Reilly]

Also, the Heat might have some economic advantages - this is from an economics paper from a University of Illinois professor:

... Placebo tests using college team performance find no evidence of an income tax effect.

Presumably due to income under-reporting by SEC football players?

[BigZ]

Rondo tried to pull a Grayson while on the bench

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

Rondo tried to pull a Grayson while on the bench

Rondo's short sleeved blazer is absurd.

[CDu]

Well, the absence of Rondo will be the headline in the Bulls' egg laid tonight. And not without reason: Rondo was fantastic the first two games, whereas Grant and Carter-Williams sucked tonight. But just as important was the impotence of Wade and Butler. The remaining two stars shot a combined 13-41 for 32 points. The Bulls can't expect to compete if that happens. And, ultimately, they were mostly noncompetitive tonight.

This series now seems like it will go 7. The Celtics clearly have the momentum now with the big win and Rondo's injury.

And yes, Rondo's attire was ridiculous.

[JNort]

Whoa... not sure I agree with the above. First of all, "after Bron is done" is at least 2-3 years from now, right? So, with that in mind...

Bucks - Totally agree that they are poised to move up in the conference. With Freak, Jabari, Middleton, Monroe, and Brogdon all under 26 years of age, this is a team that will do nothing but get better for several years. They are in great shape, though salary cap could start to be a problem in a couple years as they have to give Jabari the max and Monroe's deal comes due after next season (Monroe actually has a player option so he could opt out after this season). Still, if I had to bet on one team to take over the East after Bron retires, it is probably the Bucks.

Bulls - What do you like about their roster? Rondo and Wade are pretty close to over-the-hill. Both of their contracts are up after next season, which will free up a ton of cap space, but there's just not much there that feels championship caliber other than Butler. I guess having cap space will mean they can sign some good free agents, but counting on getting 2 or 3 stud free agents does not feel like the best method of predicting a future champion.

Raptors - Solid choice but they have cap issues. Lowry and Ibaka are both free agents this summer. Lowry is going to get a max deal from someone and I'd say it is far from certain that he will go back to Toronto. If they lose him, it is a major hit. By the way, Lowry is 31 and it would not be unlikely for his production to start to taper off in the next couple years. I love what they can get in the future from Valanciunas, he's 24 and under contract (at more than $16 mil a season) until 2020. He and DeRozan are a nice core (if they lose Lowry) but adding more players through free agency will be tough due to their cap situation. Paying $15 mil a year for Demare Carroll is a problem.

Knicks - Other than Porzingas (a very nice young player, but still...) is there anything here that screams "we are going to be good in 2 years!!"?? I don't see it at all. Rose is probably leaving to free agency this summer, he says he wants to go somewhere that he can win and that ain't the Knicks. They have all but kicked Melo out the door and I doubt they will get much in return for him if they even can trade him. The team looks largely dysfunctional and many players seem to be at odds with their "genius" GM. This is a club that will be paying more than $30 mil a year combined to Courtney Lee and Joakim Noah until 2020... whew.

The team you did not mention that I think has a bright future is the Heat. I wish Dragic (30) and Whiteside (27) were a bit younger, but those two form a great outside-inside core. We all love Winslow's potential going forward and he's on a cheap rookie deal for at least 2 more years. They are either going to get a ton of cap space from Chris Bosh not coming back or he will come back and give them an All-NBA quality player. Plus, they played the best ball of any team in the East the second half of the season. Trust me, the Celtics are THRILLED the Heat missed the playoffs and the Bulls made it. I fully expect the Heat to be top 4 in the East next season (along with Milwaukee, Boston, and the Cavs) and be near the top of the conference for the next several years at least. They have one of the best coaches in the game and a front-office that seems to make really smart deals. They are also a very attractive free agent destination. I'm not sure any team is as well suited as the Heat going forward.

-Jason "JMO, which means I will probably be dead wrong" Evans

Well the Raptors I'm assuming can keep Derozan and Lowry.

The Bulls have Butler to build around.

The Knicks have Porzingas and will lose Melo.

The Heat have nobody imo worth keeping right now.

[NSDukeFan]

Well the Raptors I'm assuming can keep Derozan and Lowry.

The Bulls have Butler to build around.

The Knicks have Porzingas and will lose Melo.

The Heat have nobody imo worth keeping right now.

If a team won almost 3/4 of their games the second half of this season, wouldn't you want to at least keep somebody from that group?

[JasonEvans]

The Heat have nobody imo worth keeping right now.

Dude, you can't just leave that comment hanging out there. I think most teams in the NBA would kill for Hassan whiteside. Most would say he's among the 5 best big men in the league. Everyone is still very high on Justise, who is already seen as a game-chaning defender and will probably turn into a great offensive player in a few years too. Dragic is at least among the top 20% of all guards in the league, maybe top 10%.

-Jason "hyperbole much, JNort?" Evans

[Indoor66]

Dude, you can't just leave that comment hanging out there. I think most teams in the NBA would kill for Hassan whiteside. Most would say he's among the 5 best big men in the league. Everyone is still very high on Justise, who is already seen as a game-chaning defender and will probably turn into a great offensive player in a few years too. Dragic is at least among the top 20% of all guards in the league, maybe top 10%.

-Jason "hyperbole much, JNort?" Evans

Thanks, Jason. I bit my tongue and did not respond to his post. I wanted to save the infraction for something more meaningful.

[MChambers]

Like I said, sports fandom is, basically by definition, not rational. Many many Duke fans despise the Yankees and Red Sox for example.
Hating the Yankees and Red Sox is completely rational.

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

Spurs/Griz is a great game... tied in OT with 7 seconds left.

[Troublemaker]

Spurs/Griz is a great game... tied in OT with 7 seconds left.

Yep. Great finish, too. These two teams just kept trading punches down the stretch of regulation and into overtime.

[Wander]

Spurs/Griz is a great game... tied in OT with 7 seconds left.

Despite the Spurs losing, Kawhi Leonard should be MVP. The gap between Westbrook/Harden and Leonard on offense is far less than the gap in the other direction between those guys on defense.

[Troublemaker]

Despite the Spurs losing, Kawhi Leonard should be MVP. The gap between Westbrook/Harden and Leonard on offense is far less than the gap in the other direction between those guys on defense.

As always, it just depends on how you define "MVP." Few people think Westbrook and Harden are as good a player as Leonard because of the latter's two-way impact, as you mentioned. BUT, those same people seem to prefer Westbrook or Harden as MVP. Because they're not defining MVP as meaning best player. (And if they did, Lebron has to enter the conversation).

[JNort]

Dude, you can't just leave that comment hanging out there. I think most teams in the NBA would kill for Hassan whiteside. Most would say he's among the 5 best big men in the league. Everyone is still very high on Justise, who is already seen as a game-chaning defender and will probably turn into a great offensive player in a few years too. Dragic is at least among the top 20% of all guards in the league, maybe top 10%.

-Jason "hyperbole much, JNort?" Evans

What? I wouldn't even day Dragic is a top 10 point guard. He isn't very young either.

Whiteside is fools gold. The Heat would be better off trying to trade him to the Lakers for a high pick if possible. He gets a ton of blocks and rebounds but he does so because he gambles a lot and gets out of position. Last year the Heat were a better team defensively when he was off the court statistically if I remember correctly.

I like Justise and would keep him but I wouldn't claim he's untradeable. He doesn't appear to be a guy you can build your franchise around either. He is a nice piece to the puzzle but this puzzle has no start.

Until they can find that guy to build around they will just remind me of the Hawks. Great regular season team with no real star but a great core of players who do well together but will never actually go anywhere because they lack that stud.

Thats the only reason I have a little
faith in those other teams I mentioned. I'm not saying necessarily that they will be better, but rather I like their chances due to having that apparent star.

[JNort]

As always, it just depends on how you define "MVP." Few people think Westbrook and Harden are as good a player as Leonard because of the latter's two-way impact, as you mentioned. BUT, those same people seem to prefer Westbrook or Harden as MVP. Because they're not defining MVP as meaning best player. (And if they did, Lebron has to enter the conversation).
Yeah id give it to Russ because without him the Thunder don't sniff the playoffs and are probably a bottom 10 team. That plus the triple double average.

[elvis14]

Yeah id give it to Russ because without him the Thunder don't sniff the playoffs and are probably a bottom 10 team. That plus the triple double average.

I agree 100% with JNort here. Averaging a triple double is a special achievement. Not to mention leading that roster into the playoffs. Harden and Leonard are great but this is clearly Russ' MVP year.

[BigZ]

Call him selfish but I have a lot more respect for guys like Russ and Kobe compared to Durant and Lebron

[darthur]

Random thoughts from a Warriors fan who loves the NBA:

- I disagree strongly with whoever said earlier in thread that the Blazers are vying with the Pacers for worst team in the playoffs. They finished the season on a 17-6 run (with one of the losses being a garbage game where they rested their stars). Unlike the other mid-tier teams, they have two bona fide stars. 538 ranks them 10th, sagarin ranks them 12th among playoff teams.

- I always root against LeBron. I hate his complaining to the front office this year about support when he's the defending champion, backed up by frigging Kevin Love and Kyrie Irving, and I hate that he somehow got both Kyle Korver and Deron Williams for his trouble. I hate that he has rendered the eastern conference playoffs irrelevant, and that he beat the Warriors last year. I hate how he completely undermined his last coach. And I hate how (justifiably) full of himself he seems in interviews. He's an incredible player, and is surely a fine person, but I sure won't root for him.

- I still don't see anyone challenging the Cavs in the East though this year despite their craptastic end to the regular season. I am optimistic about the Warriors beating them if there's a rematch, but... Steph still is not the player he was last year during the regular season. Maybe it's just the law of averages asserting itself or maybe it's Durant, but seems to me there was a large drop in his percentages starting with his injury last playoffs and which never really got fixed.

- Westbrook gets too much love for his triple double average. The main difference between his statline and Harden's, other than Westbrook being less efficient, is 2 rebounds per game. But he gets his rebounds because his teammates defer to him on a huge number of uncontested rebounds and because he cheats on defense. See some discussion here: https://www.reddit.com/r/nba/comments/5qat1j/statistically_analysis_russell_westbrooks/. I'm not saying the strategy is bad, but I think it still diminishes the impressiveness a little. On the other hand, Westbrook is way more fun to watch than Harden :). Speaking of Harden, I wish the NBA would do something to prevent people from shooting stop-on-a-dime 3s while going around picks to draw a foul as the defender can't stop fast enough.

- I feel bad for Steve Kerr, who is apparently still suffering in a major way from complications off back surgery almost 2 years ago.

[moonpie23]

- I always root against LeBron. I hate his complaining to the front office this year about support when he's the defending champion, backed up by frigging Kevin Love and Kyrie Irving, and I hate that he somehow got both Kyle Korver and Deron Williams for his trouble. I hate that he has rendered the eastern conference playoffs irrelevant, and that he beat the Warriors last year. I hate how he completely undermined his last coach. And I hate how (justifiably) full of himself he seems in interviews. He's an incredible player, and is surely a fine person, but I sure won't root for him.

your tears are delicious




- I feel bad for Steve Kerr, who is apparently still suffering in a major way from complications off back surgery almost 2 years ago.

that sucks so badly....i like kerr...hate to see him go through this...

[darthur]

your tears are delicious

I know :(

[Wander]

I agree 100% with JNort here. Averaging a triple double is a special achievement. Not to mention leading that roster into the playoffs. Harden and Leonard are great but this is clearly Russ' MVP year.

I hear you, but let me put it this way: rate Westbrook on offense on a scale of 1-10, then on defense on a scale of 1-10. Then do the same for Leonard.

Of course, as Troublemaker notes, what MVP actually means is subjective, so you can certainly make a case for Westbrook. It's a great year for the MVP race.

[A-Tex Devil]

I hear you, but let me put it this way: rate Westbrook on offense on a scale of 1-10, then on defense on a scale of 1-10. Then do the same for Leonard.

Of course, as Troublemaker notes, what MVP actually means is subjective, so you can certainly make a case for Westbrook. It's a great year for the MVP race.

On the Westbrook/Harden debate, I really don't get it. If they had 9 and 7 RPG, respectively (or 12/10), Harden would be a no brainer ahead of Westbrook. But because we use base 10 as a society, everyone is freaking out. I think most of the advanced statistics favor Harden's season.

I see the Kawhi argument, to an extent, but he has a lot of games where he's just there. That's partly because he has a much better supporting cast and isn't expected to be the primary scorer night in and night out (although he often is).

Frankly, LeBron should win it, and this is coming from a Rockets fan. But that's just boring.

[luburch]

Personally feel the MVP should be either Harden or LeBron. Unfortunately it will end up going to Westbrook.

Jazz tied up the series with the Clips last night. Blake is out for the playoffs.

The Celtics and the Bulls apparently do no enjoy playing at home. Road team has won every game in that series.

The Cavs finished off a sweep of the Pacers. Total margin of victory over the course of four games? 16 points. Could possibly have been Paul George's last game in Indy.

With regards to the conversation surrounding the Heat earlier: I don't see how you can reasonably claim Whiteside as a top 5 NBA Big. Anthony Davis, Towns, Griffin, Dirk, Love, Aldridge, Draymond, Millsap, Gobert, DeAndre Jordan and Jokic are all better or arguably better. Dragic is a decent PG, but he's 30 and on an expensive contract. Justise is young and a really nice defender. His offensive game is terrible right now. Hope he develops it, but I'm not sure many around the league view him as a star.

[Troublemaker]

Random thoughts from a Warriors fan who loves the NBA:

- I disagree strongly with whoever said earlier in thread that the Blazers are vying with the Pacers for worst team in the playoffs. They finished the season on a 17-6 run (with one of the losses being a garbage game where they rested their stars). Unlike the other mid-tier teams, they have two bona fide stars. 538 ranks them 10th, sagarin ranks them 12th among playoff teams.


It wasn't me but I can defend it, I think. The Blazers were horrible until they traded for Nurkic, but then Nurkic got injured and wasn't available at the start of the playoffs. The 17-6 run to end the season and those rankings you cite all were heavily influenced by Nurkic arriving in Portland.

[Troublemaker]

Jazz tied up the series with the Clips last night. Blake is out for the playoffs.


Yeah, I had been having trouble deciding which of these two Duke-heavy teams I wanted to advance. But with Griffin gone and Gobert back, I'm going to root for Rodney, Quin, and Antonio. They have a slightly better chance of advancing further in the playoffs than the Clips. But only slightly -- unfortunately the next opponent is Golden St.

It's nice not having an NBA team. I can just root for Dukies to advance as far as they can.

[JasonEvans]

After our dissection of the Celtics and their flaws, they promptly went out and beat that lousy Bulls team twice in a row on the road to retake control of that series. I'd say odds of the Celtics winning in 6 are fairly good at this point (who knew Rajon Rondo was still this valuable at 53 yers of age?).

Not that it really matters. The Cavs are winning the East and they will probably lose no more than 2 or 3 games along the way to doing it.

-Jason "the Spurs being in a first round dogfight is really surprising" Evans

[CDu]

After our dissection of the Celtics and their flaws, they promptly went out and beat that lousy Bulls team twice in a row on the road to retake control of that series. I'd say odds of the Celtics winning in 6 are fairly good at this point (who knew Rajon Rondo was still this valuable at 53 yers of age?).

Rondo is actually only 31, though he has seemingly been around forever. And he did lead the league in assists with Sacramento last year, so it isn't like he was dead. That said, without Rondo, the Bulls are actually the worst playoff team. They don't have even a slightly useful option at PG, which makes them very vulnerable against the Celtics. With Rondo, I think the Bulls are actually the better team. Without Rondo, no way.


Not that it really matters. The Cavs are winning the East and they will probably lose no more than 2 or 3 games along the way to doing it.

I think the Cavs will have a series on their hands in the next series if they face the Bucks. But if they face the Celtics in the ECF, they will have a walkover. If they face the Wizards in the ECF, they will again have a series on their hands. But I agree that the Celtics have no chance against the Cavs.

[flyingdutchdevil]

Rondo is actually only 31, though he has seemingly been around forever. And he did lead the league in assists with Sacramento last year, so it isn't like he was dead. That said, without Rondo, the Bulls are actually the worst playoff team. They don't have even a slightly useful option at PG, which makes them very vulnerable against the Celtics. With Rondo, I think the Bulls are actually the better team. Without Rondo, no way.



I think the Cavs will have a series on their hands in the next series if they face the Bucks. But if they face the Celtics in the ECF, they will have a walkover. If they face the Wizards in the ECF, they will again have a series on their hands. But I agree that the Celtics have no chance against the Cavs.

I don't think anyone has a chance against the Cavs in the East. The only players in the NBA who can stop Lebron are in the West (Draymond, Kawhi) and Lebron is in complete eff-you mode. I mean, Kyrie and Love have been playing mediocre basketball against Indiana and the Cavs still swept the Pacers. Once Kyrie and Love regain last year's playoff-form, watch up.

I'm with Jason - no way the Cavs lose more than 2-3 games, irrespective of opponent.

[JasonEvans]

I'm with Jason - no way the Cavs lose more than 2-3 games, irrespective of opponent.

In the East... to be clear we are just talking about the East. I think the Finals will be muuuuch harder and I expect the Warriors or Spurs would beat the Cavs, perhaps in a few as 5 games.

[flyingdutchdevil]

In the East... to be clear we are just talking about the East. I think the Finals will be muuuuch harder and I expect the Warriors or Spurs would beat the Cavs, perhaps in a few as 5 games.

Yeah- my bad for not making it clear. What makes the West tough are the Lebron stoppers. I just don't see the Greek Freak, Crowder, Porter, or Bazemore as Lebron stoppers.

[kAzE]

I don't think anyone has a chance against the Cavs in the East. The only players in the NBA who can stop Lebron are in the West (Draymond, Kawhi) and Lebron is in complete eff-you mode. I mean, Kyrie and Love have been playing mediocre basketball against Indiana and the Cavs still swept the Pacers. Once Kyrie and Love regain last year's playoff-form, watch up.

I'm with Jason - no way the Cavs lose more than 2-3 games, irrespective of opponent.

I kind of disagree with that. I think Giannis Antetokounmpo is more than capable of guarding LeBron. He just doesn't have the offensive talent around him (or the scoring ability himself) to beat the King right now. He also gets the least press of any top 10 player in the league. The first 3 Bucks playoff games have been on NBATV for crying out loud . . .

I have witnessed him effectively guarding LeBron in person, and the Freak has all the tools needed to contain him. Also, he turned 22 four months ago. Giannis really could become the best player in the eastern conference within the next 5 years. I would already take him over a lot of guys, such as Paul George, or Jimmy Butler. It's probably between him and John Wall for the 2nd best player in the East right now, and I think it's Giannis.

[Edouble]

I kind of disagree with that. I think Giannis Antetokounmpo is more than capable of guarding LeBron. He just doesn't have the offensive talent around him (or the scoring ability himself) to beat the King right now. He also gets the least press of any top 10 player in the league. The first 3 Bucks playoff games have been on NBATV for crying out loud . . .

I have witnessed him effectively guarding LeBron in person, and the Freak has all the tools needed to contain him. Also, he turned 22 four months ago. Giannis really could become the best player in the eastern conference within the next 5 years. I would already take him over a lot of guys, such as Paul George, or Jimmy Butler. It's probably between him and John Wall for the 2nd best player in the East right now, and I think it's Giannis.

Game 1 was on ESPN, FWIW.

[Troublemaker]

The Raptors going small -- moving Norman Powell into the starting lineup in place of Valanciunas -- has done wonders for Toronto and turned that series around. If they can close out the Bucks, they're going to give Cleveland a heck of a series, imo. Toronto pushed Cleveland to 6 last year and are improved this year.

[DukeTrinity11]

In the East... to be clear we are just talking about the East. I think the Finals will be muuuuch harder and I expect the Warriors or Spurs would beat the Cavs, perhaps in a few as 5 games.
Jason, I"ll have to disagree with you here about grouping the Spurs with the likes of GSW and the Cavs. While the Spurs had a great regular season record due to depth, good coaching and consistently elite defense, their guards are being completely exposed now in this series with the Grizzlies. Manu Ginobili is over the hill and is scoreless in this series while Tony Parker has been manhandled by Mike Conley and hasn't played well of the offensive end either.

Aldridge has been inconsistent and the combo of Randolph and Gasol is wearing down these Spurs. I wouldn't be shocked if the Grizzlies knock out the Spurs here,

[BigZ]

I think this Spurs team like the last few years is a great regular season team but not built for the playoffs. One star and a group of role players won't work. Unless Aldridge returns to his Blazers form I don't see the Spurs beating Houston or Golden State

[rsvman]

Looks like Westbrook will be experiencing the rest of the playoffs the same way we are--- watching them on tv.

[Furniture]

Looks like Westbrook will be experiencing the rest of the playoffs the same way we are--- watching them on tv.

They should have given Kyle a chance....

[duke4ever19]

Looks like Westbrook will be experiencing the rest of the playoffs the same way we are--- watching them on tv.


I've got to hand it to Westbrook, he gave all he had, but was absolutely gassed by the 4th quarters of these games (as Reggie Miller pointed out a billion times) and just had nothing left in the tank which led to a lot of pressing and turnovers. People like to call it "hero ball" but heck, I wouldn't pass to people who can't shoot either. To average a triple-double with that supporting cast is amazing.

The problem was that OKC couldn't afford to sit Westbrook and hope to remain in the game.

Roberson (?!) should be absolutely ashamed of himself. He's a wing in the NBA and shot 12% from the line. He should walk home from Houston.

Reggie Miller said star players are supposed to trust their teammates, but Westbrook simply doesn't have anyone to trust. Maybe Taj Gibson? Adams bricks everything and was a major disappointment this year. McDermott and Singler can't stay on the floor because their defense sucks. Roberson couldn't hit the broad side of a barn. Oladipo was either warm or ice cold from the field. Kanter was a defensive liability and couldn't really play much this series.

OKC needs to get busy this off-season.

[darthur]

Roberson (?!) should be absolutely ashamed of himself. He's a wing in the NBA and shot 12% from the line. He should walk home from Houston.

Reggie Miller said star players are supposed to trust their teammates, but Westbrook simply doesn't have anyone to trust. Maybe Taj Gibson? Adams bricks everything and was a major disappointment this year. McDermott and Singler can't stay on the floor because their defense sucks. Roberson couldn't hit the broad side of a barn. Oladipo was either warm or ice cold from the field. Kanter was a defensive liability and couldn't really play much this series.

OKC needs to get busy this off-season.

That team surely has its limitations but:

- Roberson shot 7 for 17 for 3 in the series somehow = 41%. He is also an absolutely stud defender.
- Adams shot 18 for 28 in the series = 64%.
- Gibson shot 21 for 35 in the series = 60%.
- Grant shot 19 for 31 in the series = 61%.
- Kanter is a terrible matchup against Harden so didn't play much, but was a great offensive player all season.

Now let's do a breakdown by quarter:

Per quarter stats for Q1-Q3: Westbrook shots: 7.0, Westbrook assists: 3.2, Thunder team +-: +0.47
Per quarter stats for Q4: Westbrook shots: 9.4, Westbrook assists: 1.2, Thunder team +-: -10.0

Westbrook may have been tired, but he also *consistently* stopped passing to open teammates who were hitting shots all game long. Oh and apparently he set the all-time playoff record for most shots by a single player in a quarter. He absolutely deserves some of the blame for his team's collapses in the fourth. Playing hard is not always a good substitute for playing smart.

The team still has really nice pieces, but they were built around Durant and Westbrook together. With Durant gone, they need to trade away some of the defense/rebounding for more shot creators.

[duke4ever19]

That team surely has its limitations but:

- Roberson shot 7 for 17 for 3 in the series somehow = 41%. He is also an absolutely stud defender.
- Adams shot 18 for 28 in the series = 64%.
- Gibson shot 21 for 35 in the series = 60%.
- Grant shot 19 for 31 in the series = 61%.
- Kanter is a terrible matchup against Harden so didn't play much, but was a great offensive player all season.

Now let's do a breakdown by quarter:

Per quarter stats for Q1-Q3: Westbrook shots: 7.0, Westbrook assists: 3.2, Thunder team +-: +0.47
Per quarter stats for Q4: Westbrook shots: 9.4, Westbrook assists: 1.2, Thunder team +-: -10.0

Westbrook may have been tired, but he also *consistently* stopped passing to open teammates who were hitting shots all game long. Oh and apparently he set the all-time playoff record for most shots by a single player in a quarter. He absolutely deserves some of the blame for his team's collapses in the fourth. Playing hard is not always a good substitute for playing smart.

The team still has really nice pieces, but they were built around Durant and Westbrook together. With Durant gone, they need to trade away some of the defense/rebounding for more shot creators.

There's a reason that Westbrook's production dipped drastically in the 4th quarter of those games. Go look up Westbrook's minutes vs. that of Harden. As I said, the dude was gassed by the 4th quarter.

Also, those field-goal percentages are a bit of "fools gold" once you look at their yearly average, plus/minus, and minutes, plus what they could do with Westbrook out of the game (nothing).

Three of the four players you cited as having a high field goal percentage are interior-ish players and relatively low-volume shooters.

Adams averaged 8-points a game. This, from a guy who was supposed to have a break-out year. He was simply not a stable source of offense.

Jerami Grant (??) is a defensive player and averaged 5-points a game this year off the bench. He's incredibly raw and not a consistent source of offense. In fact, he's the exact opposite.

Kanter is a non-case (as you said) because as gifted as he might be, he couldn't stay on the floor. Same goes for McDermott . . . gifted shooter with zero defense.

Roberson might have shot 7 - 17 from three, but Houston was content to let him have all those looks, knowing he couldn't really burn them. Besides, seven makes spread over 5 games . . . Houston was fine with that. He also only averaged around 6-points a game this season and sucks from the free throw line. As I said, for a wing player, he should be ashamed of himself for shooting 12% from the line this series.

You left out Oladipo, who was not a good second-option.

Westbrook deserves his fair share of blame. He gambled on passes, which led to turnovers and he also pressed and tried to shoot his team back in games in the 4th quarter, when his tank was clearly empty. But I'm not going to pretend that Westbrook had lots of playmakers on his team and his selfishness ruined his chance to beat Houston.

[JasonEvans]

Serious question... minus Westbrook, how many rosters in the NBA are worse than OKC? Oladipo is their second best player. Is there any other team in the league where he is the second best player on the team?

Anotehr serious question... if you put Westbrook on any other playoff team, doesn't that team likely become one of the top few title favorites?

[luburch]

Serious question... minus Westbrook, how many rosters in the NBA are worse than OKC? Oladipo is their second best player. Is there any other team in the league where he is the second best player on the team?

Anotehr serious question... if you put Westbrook on any other playoff team, doesn't that team likely become one of the top few title favorites?

I think you could make an argument that Oladipo would be the second best player on the Pacers, Bulls, and Hawks and those are just playoff teams. Otherwise you could include the Magic, 76ers, Nets, Mavericks, Kings, Lakers, Suns, Pistons. So 11/30 teams.

[CDu]

Serious question... minus Westbrook, how many rosters in the NBA are worse than OKC? Oladipo is their second best player. Is there any other team in the league where he is the second best player on the team?

Anotehr serious question... if you put Westbrook on any other playoff team, doesn't that team likely become one of the top few title favorites?

To be fair, I would say that Enes Kanter, Steven Adams, and Taj Gibson are all better players than Oladipo. But none of them are #2 players on a good team either.

But as for your question, probably the Lakers, Charlotte, Brooklyn, Sacramento, and Orlando would be the only teams in discussion. Which is kind of your point. It's not a good team at all without Westbrook.

And if you put Westbrook on any other playoff team, they are competing for a title. It would have been really interesting, for example, if you swapped Westbrook with Isiah Thomas in Boston. Or if you swapped Westbrook with Rondo in Chicago. Or Westbrook with Teague in Indiana. Any of those teams would stand a good chance of getting out of the East.

[drummerdevil]

I think you could make an argument that Oladipo would be the second best player on the Pacers, Bulls, and Hawks and those are just playoff teams. Otherwise you could include the Magic, 76ers, Nets, Mavericks, Kings, Lakers, Suns, Pistons. So 11/30 teams.

Nets? No, not the nets. On the nets, he's the best player.
Lakers? Who are you putting him behind? Brandon is underrated, and D'Angelo Russell is better than Oladipo imo.
76ers I'm not sure. Is Jah better than Oladipo? Probably not, but I would rather have Jah anyway.
Bulls, no. Definitely not. Are you saying he's better than D Wade and Rondo? If so, look at Oladipo.
Kings, just like the nets, he's the best.

[gam7]

I'd give sporks to someone who tests with the commonly held belief that a team that plays more games in a prior round of the playoffs than its then current opponent is at a disadvantage (e.g., getting worn down while the current opponent rested).

In other words, the Warriors swept Portland, while the Jazz and Clippers battle it out in a series that will end 4-2 or 4-3. Does the empirical evidence show that the "more rested" team (Warriors) wins more often? Admittedly, it is impossible to isolate that variable, and the team that plays fewer games in the prior round is probably more likely to be the better team anyway. Still, I'd be interested to see the numbers.

[kAzE]

To be fair, I would say that Enes Kanter, Steven Adams, and Taj Gibson are all better players than Oladipo. But none of them are #2 players on a good team either.

But as for your question, probably the Lakers, Charlotte, Brooklyn, Sacramento, and Orlando would be the only teams in discussion. Which is kind of your point. It's not a good team at all without Westbrook.

And if you put Westbrook on any other playoff team, they are competing for a title. It would have been really interesting, for example, if you swapped Westbrook with Isiah Thomas in Boston. Or if you swapped Westbrook with Rondo in Chicago. Or Westbrook with Teague in Indiana. Any of those teams would stand a good chance of getting out of the East.

I dunno . . . Oladipo seems to be yet another victim of playing on a team with Westbrook. OKC has had a history of under performing supporting guards: Dion Waiters, Cameron Payne, Randy Foye, Reggie Jackson, Jeremy Lamb, Kevin Martin, Daequan Cook, Sebastian Telfair, Eric Maynor, etc.

In many cases, these are guys who played well before they got to OKC, or played well after they left OKC. My theory is that it's just freakin hard for other guards to play on a team with Westbrook. The guy uses an unprecedented percentage of his team's possessions, and that takes a toll on his teammates who are supposed to be ball handlers. It's hard to be good when you need ball and you play with Westbrook. You're constantly paranoid that if you miss a few shots or turn it over, you'll never touch the ball again. Guys also get used to just standing around and watching him play. That's not an excuse, it's just reality.

It's probably true that most of those guys were never going to be stars, but especially young guys like Cameron Payne just could never develop any confidence as an NBA player being a point guard on a team with Westbrook.

I'm not sure putting Westbrook on any team makes them a title contender. He's a guy who forces his style on your team, and if your team doesn't work that way, it might hurt your chemistry in ways that you can't see on paper. Why do you think Kevin Durant left OKC? I think it's because he played with Russell Westbrook for 8 years and realized it would be much more fun playing with the Warriors.

Look, do I think he's an amazing player and deserves all the credit for what he has accomplished? Absolutely. He's a force of nature the likes of which we may never see again. But would I want to play with him if I was an NBA point guard? HELL no. He's that guy you play pick up ball with who is better than everyone, and will never pass you the ball unless you're wide open for a shot, because he knows he's better than everyone.

I think only a guy like Gregg Popovich could reign him in.

[darthur]

There's a reason that Westbrook's production dipped drastically in the 4th quarter of those games. Go look up Westbrook's minutes vs. that of Harden. As I said, the dude was gassed by the 4th quarter.

But only his assists dipped. His shot attempts went up. I'm sure he was tired, but he also changed his playing style to go more solo and the numbers suggest this was a bad idea.

I'm obviously in the minority here, but if I'm GM for a playoff team, I'd rather have Steph Curry, Chris Paul, or James Harden over Russell Westbrook any day, and that's just Western Conference "point" guards. Westbrook did a heroic effort in terms of absorbing usage on a team that didn't have people who could absorb usage. Few people could have done better with the team he had. But he's still the same player he's always been and most playoff teams don't need someone who can absorb usage with decent-but-not-great efficiency, especially if that someone has a history of struggling to co-exist with other stars. IMO most playoff teams this year + Westbrook would lose to the Thunder last year and would not seriously challenge either the Warriors or Cavs this year.

PS: To kAzE's point, if I could choose between adding Westbrook for free to this Warriors team or not, I would choose not. If he could play within the system, he'd be awesome. I don't see any evidence that he would be willing to do that though, and I think he would disrupt what the team has.

[JNort]

I dunno . . . Oladipo seems to be yet another victim of playing on a team with Westbrook. OKC has had a history of under performing supporting guards: Dion Waiters, Cameron Payne, Randy Foye, Reggie Jackson, Jeremy Lamb, Kevin Martin, Daequan Cook, Sebastian Telfair, Eric Maynor, etc.

In many cases, these are guys who played well before they got to OKC, or played well after they left OKC. My theory is that it's just freakin hard for other guards to play on a team with Westbrook. The guy uses an unprecedented percentage of his team's possessions, and that takes a toll on his teammates who are supposed to be ball handlers. It's hard to be good when you need ball and you play with Westbrook. You're constantly paranoid that if you miss a few shots or turn it over, you'll never touch the ball again. Guys also get used to just standing around and watching him play. That's not an excuse, it's just reality.

It's probably true that most of those guys were never going to be stars, but especially young guys like Cameron Payne just could never develop any confidence as an NBA player being a point guard on a team with Westbrook.

I'm not sure putting Westbrook on any team makes them a title contender. He's a guy who forces his style on your team, and if your team doesn't work that way, it might hurt your chemistry in ways that you can't see on paper. Why do you think Kevin Durant left OKC? I think it's because he played with Russell Westbrook for 8 years and realized it would be much more fun playing with the Warriors.

Look, do I think he's an amazing player and deserves all the credit for what he has accomplished? Absolutely. He's a force of nature the likes of which we may never see again. But would I want to play with him if I was an NBA point guard? HELL no. He's that guy you play pick up ball with who is better than everyone, and will never pass you the ball unless you're wide open for a shot, because he knows he's better than everyone.

I think only a guy like Gregg Popovich could reign him in.
To be fair, most of those guys did play well in OKC with him. They just happened to share the court with not 1 but 2 top 5 players in the league so they got a lot less use. None of those guys are very good now imo anyway. You couldn't pay me (as an owner) to take Jackson.

[JNort]

But only his assists dipped. His shot attempts went up. I'm sure he was tired, but he also changed his playing style to go more solo and the numbers suggest this was a bad idea.

I'm obviously in the minority here, but if I'm GM for a playoff team, I'd rather have Steph Curry, Chris Paul, or James Harden over Russell Westbrook any day, and that's just Western Conference "point" guards. Westbrook did a heroic effort in terms of absorbing usage on a team that didn't have people who could absorb usage. Few people could have done better with the team he had. But he's still the same player he's always been and most playoff teams don't need someone who can absorb usage with decent-but-not-great efficiency, especially if that someone has a history of struggling to co-exist with other stars. IMO most playoff teams this year + Westbrook would lose to the Thunder last year and would not seriously challenge either the Warriors or Cavs this year.

PS: To kAzE's point, if I could choose between adding Westbrook for free to this Warriors team or not, I would choose not. If he could play within the system, he'd be awesome. I don't see any evidence that he would be willing to do that though, and I think he would disrupt what the team has.

I think it kind of depends on style of play and the team around them that you build.


Scrap that though. If you could "build" your perfect pg using only today's pgs what parts do you take from each?

Give me Walls body
Westbrooks athleticism
CP3s brain/leadership
Currys shooting
Kyries handles
Mike Conleys defense
Rondos passing

[camion]

I think it kind of depends on style of play and the team around them that you build.


Scrap that though. If you could "build" your perfect pg using only today's pgs what parts do you take from each?

Give me Walls body
Westbrooks athleticism
CP3s brain/leadership
Currys shooting
Kyries handles
Mike Conleys defense
Rondos passing

Reminds me of a joke.
In Heaven:The cooks are French, The policemen are English, The mechanics are German, The lovers are Italian, The bankers are Swiss.
In Hell:The cooks are English, The policemen are German, The mechanics are French, The lovers are Swiss, The bankers are Italian.


As an exercise take those same players and qualities. Mix them to get the worst pg.

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

I think it kind of depends on style of play and the team around them that you build.


Scrap that though. If you could "build" your perfect pg using only today's pgs what parts do you take from each?

Give me Walls body
Westbrooks athleticism
CP3s brain/leadership
Currys shooting
Kyries handles
Mike Conleys defense
Rondos passing

Rose's legs?

[CDu]

Rose's legs?

Haha! Rose's legs, Rondo's shooting, and Curry's or Irving's defense would be on the list for the worst PG. Probably Rose's passing too. Leadership/brain is a trickier one.

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

Haha! Rose's legs, Rondo's shooting, and Curry's or Irving's defense would be on the list for the worst PG. Probably Rose's passing too. Leadership/brain is a trickier one.


https://youtu.be/V8P4Waiv3-w

I would vote for Harden's "defense."

[JNort]

Haha! Rose's legs, Rondo's shooting, and Curry's or Irving's defense would be on the list for the worst PG. Probably Rose's passing too. Leadership/brain is a trickier one.

Deangelo Russel?

[CDu]

I'll say this: Rondo when he is dialed in is just an insanely gifted basketball player. He sees the floor so unbelievably well on both ends. It should be no surprise that the team's fortunes have caved in his absence. His on/off +/- in the first two games was amazing. He orchestrated both the offense and the defense like a coach on the floor, all while playing extremely good basketball.


The guy is just such a high-ball-IQ player. He's a jerk and a malcontent, and can be a coach-killer when he isn't happy. But when he's motivated, there are few players better at the position. Even at the age of 31 and without anything remotely resembling a jumpshot.

[Indoor66]

I'll say this: Rondo when he is dialed in is just an insanely gifted basketball player. He sees the floor so unbelievably well on both ends. It should be no surprise that the team's fortunes have caved in his absence. His on/off +/- in the first two games was amazing. He orchestrated both the offense and the defense like a coach on the floor, all while playing extremely good basketball.


The guy is just such a high-ball-IQ player. He's a jerk and a malcontent, and can be a coach-killer when he isn't happy. But when he's motivated, there are few players better at the position. Even at the age of 31 and without anything remotely resembling a jumpshot.

The question is always whether those intermittent moments are worth the ongoing anguish. By his trade history, it appears that the worth has a relatively short shelf life.

[CDu]

The question is always whether those intermittent moments are worth the ongoing anguish. By his trade history, it appears that the worth has a relatively short shelf life.

Yeah, when things go bad with Rondo, they go REALLY bad. Therein lies the rub. He has a very niche market.

[Indoor66]

Yeah, when things go bad with Rondo, they go REALLY bad. Therein lies the rub. He has a very niche market.

And the niche may have been plastered over....

[darthur]

Give me Walls body
Westbrooks athleticism

What's the difference? :)


CP3s brain/leadership

This seems related to will to win. It's funny -- Chris Paul is surely the point guard most associated with this, but his teams have never really gotten it done on the big stage in either the NBA or college.


Mike Conleys defense

I find defense so hard to judge. Based on a pure eye test, if I had to pick the top defensive point guard, I'd probably pick Beverley.

Curry was listed below as being a poor defender but as a biased fan, I think he's decent -- I think he's usually in the right place, he's reasonably good at keeping the ball in front of him, he's not *that* easy to post up, and he's great at getting steals. But people can still shoot over him no problem and of course the LeBron James's of the world have no trouble abusing him strength-wise.

In terms of stats, the only thing I know that even seems to really try to be a good defensive measure is ESPN's real +-:

http://www.espn.com/nba/statistics/rpm/_/sort/DRPM/position/1

It has Chris Paul as a clear #1, Steph Curry as a net positive defender, and Isaiah Thomas as a clear last place, all of which sounds plausible to me. It also thinks Klay Thompson is a net negative defender though, which I think basically everyone who follows GS would disagree with. I started liking it a lot less when I heard they adjusted the scores based on box score stats like rebounds.


Rondos passing

One other area that I wouldn't normally associate with point guards but which Curry has taught me the value of:

Off-ball movement to make the team as a whole better. This lets him be effective even when he is paired with people who need the ball. This follows partly from being a good shooter, but definitely also includes running through screens lots and setting effective screens for others. For example, KD is also a great shooter but is nowhere near as effective off the ball as Curry is partly because he is crap at setting screens.

[CDu]

This seems related to will to win. It's funny -- Chris Paul is surely the point guard most associated with this, but his teams have never really gotten it done on the big stage in either the NBA or college.

To be fair, he also has never really had the talent around him either. In New Orleans he carried a bad team to the playoffs a bunch. Then he had Griffin (who can't shoot) and weaker wing play. And more recently, as LA has gotten some better supporting talent, the Clippers have just suffered the reality that San Antonio, OKC, and now Golden State are simply deeper, more talented teams.



One other area that I wouldn't normally associate with point guards but which Curry has taught me the value of:

Off-ball movement to make the team as a whole better, even when he is paired with people who need the ball. This follows partly from being a good shooter, but definitely also includes running through screens lots and setting effective screens for others. For example, KD is also a great shooter but is nowhere near as effective off the ball as Curry is partly because he is crap at setting screens.

Curry is just one of the rare players who is effective both on the ball and off it. Probably because he is more accurately a SG who taught himself to play PG. He's not quite as naturally gifted as a playmaking PG as, say, Paul or Rondo. But he's good enough at everything to be effective in spite of his skill set being more suited to be a scoring guard. That's also part of the value of having both Curry and Durant and Green and Livingston and Iguodala. They can all handle and pass, which allows Curry to play both PG and also hunt out catch-and-shoot opportunities off-ball. It's a really nice combination.

I don't know that Curry would be nearly as valuable as he is if he played for, say, Boston. Not that he would suddenly become a mediocre player. Far from it. But on a team that has credible offensive players at multiple positions like the Warriors, he becomes that much more dynamic a weapon.

[darthur]

To be fair, he also has never really had the talent around him either. In New Orleans he carried a bad team to the playoffs a bunch. Then he had Griffin (who can't shoot) and weaker wing play. And more recently, as LA has gotten some better supporting talent, the Clippers have just suffered the reality that San Antonio, OKC, and now Golden State are simply deeper, more talented teams.

Agree completely -- I'm a fan. You also neglected to mention all their injury problems the last couple years.

I actually think it says something impressive about him that he has the reputation of being a winner despite struggles from his teams.

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

When did JJ change his last name to "Riddick?"

[Billy Dat]

Austin did some work tonight on both ends, his improvement this year has been impressive. His work ethic seems top notch, as does his overall drive.

[Indoor66]

When did JJ change his last name to "Riddick?"

When the Chronicles got involved?

[Troublemaker]

Austin did some work tonight on both ends, his improvement this year has been impressive. His work ethic seems top notch, as does his overall drive.

Yeah, Austin gave the Clips another good defensive wing that they've desperately needed. Must be disappointing for Quin and Rodney that they couldn't close out at home. Well, at least the Duke-on-Duke series gets a Game 7.

[weezie]

All in for Quin! Jazz now has me in their corner. That should encourage them.

[heyman25]

JJ Redick sealed his fate with the Clippers. He will be expendable. Great form,but when it comes to clutch high pressure plays, he rarely executes. Too bad for him, but when Steve Ballmer evaluates who he keeps I think JJ will be lucky to be resigned.

Austin Rivers has gotten better,but the Clippers may want bigger 2 guards. Joe Ingles and Rodney Hood are both 6'8.

[darthur]

JJ Redick sealed his fate with the Clippers. He will be expendable. Great form,but when it comes to clutch high pressure plays, he rarely executes. Too bad for him, but when Steve Ballmer evaluates who he keeps I think JJ will be lucky to be resigned.

Austin Rivers has gotten better,but the Clippers may want bigger 2 guards. Joe Ingles and Rodney Hood are both 6'8.

We may well have seen JJ's last game as a Clipper, but I think that is worse for the Clippers than it is for JJ.

I could be wrong, but IMO JJ will get nice offers from multiple teams whereas the Clippers will be forced to make sacrifices. I also think JJ's struggles in this series had more to do with matchups than pressure.

[dukelifer]

JJ Redick sealed his fate with the Clippers. He will be expendable. Great form,but when it comes to clutch high pressure plays, he rarely executes. Too bad for him, but when Steve Ballmer evaluates who he keeps I think JJ will be lucky to be resigned.

Austin Rivers has gotten better,but the Clippers may want bigger 2 guards. Joe Ingles and Rodney Hood are both 6'8.

Rivers makes the call not Ballmer. He loves JJ. This was a bad matchup for JJ but he has had many clutch moments over the years. Doc know this.

[Troublemaker]

All in for Quin! Jazz now has me in their corner. That should encourage them.

They overcame the disappointment of not closing out the series at home to win a Game 7 on the road! Props to Quinn and the Jazz!

[heyman25]

Rivers makes the call not Ballmer. He loves JJ. This was a bad matchup for JJ but he has had many clutch moments over the years. Doc know this.
Ballmer is a very informed owner. Rivers has not taken the Clippers out of the 1st round. I would not be surprised if Doc Rivers is not renewed as Player Operations Head Coach. I think the Clippers need to be blown up. Jordan and Paul need new teammates.

[heyman25]

Bill Plaschke sums up the LA Clipper franchise and a good account of Game 7.
http://www.latimes.com/sports/la-sp-clippers-jazz-plaschke-20170430-story.html

[luburch]

JJ Redick sealed his fate with the Clippers. He will be expendable. Great form,but when it comes to clutch high pressure plays, he rarely executes. Too bad for him, but when Steve Ballmer evaluates who he keeps I think JJ will be lucky to be resigned.

Austin Rivers has gotten better,but the Clippers may want bigger 2 guards. Joe Ingles and Rodney Hood are both 6'8.

JJ is a free agent, so he will be making his own decision, actually.

I'm very interested in what happens with the Clippers this offseason. They've had some really strong teams that haven't been able to get over the hump for a variety of reasons. Everyone is saying they need to blow it up, and I agree they'll have to make a few significant changes, but it's hard to quit on a team that is consistently in the top 4 in the West. No guarantee that a shake-up improves the team at all.

I guess the point is moot because Griffin, Paul, and Redick are the actual decision makers here, not Doc.

[dukelifer]

Ballmer is a very informed owner. Rivers has not taken the Clippers out of the 1st round. I would not be surprised if Doc Rivers is not renewed as Player Operations Head Coach. I think the Clippers need to be blown up. Jordan and Paul need new teammates.


Well that is not true- made the semis two years ago under Rivers. The last two years they lost Paul and then Griffin. That is a lot to overcome. I doubt a new coach and all new teammates will lead to a significant change in success next year.

[weezie]

..Jordan and Paul need new teammates.

And Paul could still use a cream pie to the face. He's still remarkably irritating. I respect that.

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

And Paul could still use a cream pie to the face. He's still remarkably irritating. I respect that.

He makes a charming insurance agent, but I still think of him a "Captain Nut Punch."

[JNort]

Ballmer is a very informed owner. Rivers has not taken the Clippers out of the 1st round. I would not be surprised if Doc Rivers is not renewed as Player Operations Head Coach. I think the Clippers need to be blown up. Jordan and Paul need new teammates.
Hoping they drop Griffen and get PG13

[duke74]

NY Post speculating this AM about MElo to Clips in sign and trade for Austin with somehow JJ along. Hmmm, with MP3 and Lance, MSG becomes CIS north?

[JNort]

NY Post speculating this AM about MElo to Clips in sign and trade for Austin with somehow JJ along. Hmmm, with MP3 and Lance, MSG becomes CIS north?

I'd try to go hard after PG13 and if that fails theeeennnn go after Melo. He just doesn't play defense and is a bit of a black hole on offense

[LasVegas]

Cavs looked pretty good. Kyrie with 10 dimes and LBJ with 35 Points. I don't think the raptors stand a chance in this one.

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

Anyone see Dahntay yam one and get ejected in the last half minute?

Never change, Dahntay.

[BigZ]

Wow Rockets up 30 at half

[LasVegas]

Anyone see Dahntay yam one and get ejected in the last half minute?

Never change, Dahntay.

When you only play a few minutes.....gotta make your presence known! No push-ups this time though.
On a side note, I have a ton of friends in NE Ohio. Seems like the city is more pumped up this time around than last. I really hope we get Cle vs GS. Loser gets kicked out of the league.

[darthur]

I didn't get to watch but yeah, seemed like the Cavs best game of the playoffs so far.

The Spurs have been quietly mediocre for the last month and looked absolutely wretched tonight.

[Troublemaker]

Cavs looked pretty good. Kyrie with 10 dimes and LBJ with 35 Points. I don't think the raptors stand a chance in this one.

They actually played good defense in this one, too. Let's see if they can keep it up. Game 2 will be key, of course.

[LasVegas]

They actually played good defense in this one, too. Let's see if they can keep it up. Game 2 will be key, of course.

They are definitely a weird team this year. Sometimes I see them going all the way and sometimes they look like absolute garbage. On paper, the roster looks like it should be better than last year. For whatever reason that never happened. Still time though. And for all the discussion about the west being light years harder than the east.....it sure looks like things maybe opening up for the warriors.

[Richard Berg]

LeMarcus Aldridge posted an amazing -36 in 25 minutes. His only two buckets came off ORs, not part of the offensive scheme. So, is anyone still incredulous that I want the Spurs to trade him?

[cato]

They are definitely a weird team this year. Sometimes I see them going all the way and sometimes they look like absolute garbage. On paper, the roster looks like it should be better than last year. For whatever reason that never happened. Still time though. And for all the discussion about the west being light years harder than the east....it sure looks like things maybe opening up for the warriors.

They just needed to add Dahntay.

[nmduke2001]

They just needed to add Dahntay.

Dahntay was fined 2/3 of his NBA salary for the technical fouls. $3k for each tech while his salary for the year is the one game veteran minimum of $9k. I would guess that he will be voted a playoff share as well. Fortunately, for Dahntay, LeBron is covering the fine.

[cato]

Dahntay was fined 2/3 of his NBA salary for the technical fouls. $3k for each tech while his salary for the year is the one game veteran minimum of $9k. I would guess that he will be voted a playoff share as well. Fortunately, for Dahntay, LeBron is covering the fine.

Indeed. I doubt mgmt wanted the tech, but they did sign Dahntay for a reason.

[JNort]

LeMarcus Aldridge posted an amazing -36 in 25 minutes. His only two buckets came off ORs, not part of the offensive scheme. So, is anyone still incredulous that I want the Spurs to trade him?
Yes, unless you could give us (me) a good trade proposal. One game doesn't mean he's not worth it, he's been really good and a game in which everyone on the team struggled (including Kawhi) shouldn't mean a whole lot in terms of his talent.

They need to just move on from Manu and Parker who are worse for this team now than LA is. I'd wash my hands of Danny Green too.

[dukelifer]

Yes, unless you could give us (me) a good trade proposal. One game doesn't mean he's not worth it, he's been really good and a game in which everyone on the team struggled (including Kawhi) shouldn't mean a whole lot in terms of his talent.

They need to just move on from Manu and Parker who are worse for this team now than LA is. I'd wash my hands of Danny Green too.

Get Paul and JJ from the Clips.

[Richard Berg]

I still think LMA can be a great player, assuming he ups his conditioning (poor since the heart scare) -- he's just a bad fit for the Spurs system. When we acquired him, I don't think anyone knew Kawhi would become such a monster at the iso / ball dominant role. Come 2017, we find ourselves with 2 black holes. It's clear now that we need our #2 stud to play more of a distributor role. CP3 would be amazing if the Clippers decide to blow up, but I don't see that happening. (Not just because CP3 is too valuable -- LMA's strengths would clash with Blake even more than they do here.)

[BigZ]

Back to Chris Paul. I read and see all these talking heads say he is an all time great. Some say he is a top 3 PG lol. Here is a list of better PGs: Magic, Isaiah, Stockton, Iverson, Kidd, Nash, Payton and Curry. I think some other current guys will pass him too.

[darthur]

Back to Chris Paul. I read and see all these talking heads say he is an all time great. Some say he is a top 3 PG lol. Here is a list of better PGs: Magic, Isaiah, Stockton, Iverson, Kidd, Nash, Payton and Curry. I think some other current guys will pass him too.

Magic, Isaiah, and Stockton are before my time, but I'd absolutely take CP3 over Iverson, Kidd, Nash, and Payton. I would challenge you to back up your claim.

As a GS fan, I'll happily give you Curry though :). How can you not appreciate this abuse of a DPOY candidate? https://streamable.com/gjzwx He may not have Irving's handle from a technical perspective but he's a master of deception. Should have been an and-1 too, with Gobert grabbing the jersey!

[darthur]

And for all the discussion about the west being light years harder than the east...it sure looks like things maybe opening up for the warriors.

- The Jazz and the Clippers had the same record. Both would have tied for 2nd in the east despite struggling with injuries throughout the season. The Jazz are every bit as good as the Clippers are.
- The Spurs are underperforming a bit right now but (a) they are hardly dead yet, and (b) the Rockets have looked great and would have won the east.
- I also still believe the Blazers would have beaten the bottom few teams in the East.

If you exclude the one game (against the Jazz!) where they rested Klay and sat all starters in a close 4th quarter after clinching the 1 seed, the Warriors are currently on a 20-game winning streak. They are just playing at a really high level right now, and making opponents look worse than they are.

Conversely, I grew up in Toronto and would love to see the Raptors succeed, but they have been underperforming in the playoffs for some time. The Celtics are looking pretty legit, although I still doubt they can really challenge the Cavs.

[LasVegas]

- The Jazz and the Clippers had the same record. Both would have tied for 2nd in the east despite struggling with injuries throughout the season. The Jazz are every bit as good as the Clippers are.
- The Spurs are underperforming a bit right now but (a) they are hardly dead yet, and (b) the Rockets have looked great and would have won the east.
- I also still believe the Blazers would have beaten the bottom few teams in the East.

If you exclude the one game (against the Jazz!) where they rested Klay and sat all starters in a close 4th quarter after clinching the 1 seed, the Warriors are currently on a 20-game winning streak. They are just playing at a really high level right now, and making opponents look worse than they are.

Conversely, I grew up in Toronto and would love to see the Raptors succeed, but they have been underperforming in the playoffs for some time. The Celtics are looking pretty legit, although I still doubt they can really challenge the Cavs.

I really don't think there is a huge drop off when talking about the celtics/raptors vs the jazz/rockets. Maybe I'm in the minority but I just don't think the warrior's path was a lot more difficult than the cavs. (If both teams get there and play the teams listed). A little more difficult? Sure.

[subzero02]

Magic, Isaiah, and Stockton are before my time, but I'd absolutely take CP3 over Iverson, Kidd, Nash, and Payton. I would challenge you to back up your claim.

As a GS fan, I'll happily give you Curry though :). How can you not appreciate this abuse of a DPOY candidate? https://streamable.com/gjzwx He may not have Irving's handle from a technical perspective but he's a master of deception. Should have been an and-1 too, with Gobert grabbing the jersey!
Chris Paul is amazing but I'd never take him over Kidd.

[JNort]

Back to Chris Paul. I read and see all these talking heads say he is an all time great. Some say he is a top 3 PG lol. Here is a list of better PGs: Magic, Isaiah, Stockton, Iverson, Kidd, Nash, Payton and Curry. I think some other current guys will pass him too.

I'll give you Magic for sure. A couple you could argue for but otherwise, no way. I'm in the camp of CP3 being top 3. He's almost literally the stereotypical point guard. Of all those above he is most likely the best all around.

[JasonEvans]

Chris Paul (who is 31) is 10th all-time in career assists. If he plays 3 or 4 more seasons with his normal 600+ assists he will find himself in 3rd all-time behind Kidd and Stockton. Paul is 16th all-time in career steals, but will likely retire with something like the 5th most steals in history. His total career win shares and VORP make him one of the 20 best players ALL-TIME in NBA history.

That said, he has never won an MVP award (though he has finished in the top 5 in the MVP voting 4 times) and has never even made it to a conference finals, let alone the NBA Finals or winning a ring. He is often on very good teams that are a few shades short of being great and some of that blame has to fall to him.

I think you can make a case for him being top 5 all time, though I would not want to make it myself. But, there's just no way you could put him ahead of Magic, Stockton, Oscar Robertson, or even Steve Nash (2 time MVP)... and I would have a really hard time putting him ahead of Isaiah Thomas or Jason Kidd at this point.

-Jason "fun fact that will probably win you a bar bet... Isaiah Thomas never ever finished higher than 5th in the MVP race... he was 5th in 85 and 8th in 87" Evans

[WillJ]

If I were going to continue to let the ridiculous hubbub over Grayson bother me, which of course I'm not, then I might have been a wee bit irritated when Greg Anthony and Ian Eagle said absolutely nothing when Avery Bradley tripped Bradley Beal last night. Good thing I'm over it.

[elvis14]

Wow, was it fun to watch Isaiah Thomas play last night (the day that would have been his sister's 23rd birthday). He took over that playoff game and the Wizards just ran out of steam in OT (missed open jumpers looked tired). Thomas is like 4'7" tall and he put up 53 points most of which came in the 4th quarter and OT. If my little sister had passed, I don't even know that I'd be able to play, especially a few days later on her birthday.

[WillJ]

Wow, was it fun to watch Isaiah Thomas play last night (the day that would have been his sister's 23rd birthday). He took over that playoff game and the Wizards just ran out of steam in OT (missed open jumpers looked tired). Thomas is like 4'7" tall and he put up 53 points most of which came in the 4th quarter and OT. If my little sister had passed, I don't even know that I'd be able to play, especially a few days later on her birthday.

He was incredible. I'd like him a lot if he didn't play for the Celtics:).

[darthur]

Here's a nice head-to-head comparison:

http://www.landofbasketball.com/player_comparison/jason_kidd_vs_chris_paul.htm

Summary: Kidd is a better rebounder and had more team success but was worse in most individual statistical categories. Kidd did win a championship but only when he was way past his prime -- not sure it should count.

http://www.landofbasketball.com/player_comparison/steve_nash_vs_chris_paul.htm

Summary: Nash is a more accurate shooter (but shot less) and of course two-time MVP, but he was worse in most other individual statistical categories., especially defense. I love Nash -- 7 seconds or less was what first really got me into the NBA, but those teams underperformed in the playoffs worse than CP3's teams did and CP3 consistently outplayed Nash head-to-head even then IIRC, and Nash's time as an elite PG was much shorter than Paul's. Nash's MVPs were very much team success awards. If you are building a franchise and need to choose between prime Nash and CP3, how much of that success do you think came from Nash vs D'Antoni vs a combination?

All three are great players, but CP3 holds his own easily. I think it all just depends how much you blame him for failure of the Clippers to be great, but they've had a ton of injuries and CP3 always seems to be the one player on that team that really brings it in the playoffs. He's certainly the only player on that team to really have a reputation as being a winner and a competitor.

[Richard Berg]

If CDu still wants to trade IT, my offer stands ;)

[NSDukeFan]

Chris Paul (who is 31) is 10th all-time in career assists. If he plays 3 or 4 more seasons with his normal 600+ assists he will find himself in 3rd all-time behind Kidd and Stockton. Paul is 16th all-time in career steals, but will likely retire with something like the 5th most steals in history. His total career win shares and VORP make him one of the 20 best players ALL-TIME in NBA history.

That said, he has never won an MVP award (though he has finished in the top 5 in the MVP voting 4 times) and has never even made it to a conference finals, let alone the NBA Finals or winning a ring. He is often on very good teams that are a few shades short of being great and some of that blame has to fall to him.

I think you can make a case for him being top 5 all time, though I would not want to make it myself. But, there's just no way you could put him ahead of Magic, Stockton, Oscar Robertson, or even Steve Nash (2 time MVP)... and I would have a really hard time putting him ahead of Isaiah Thomas or Jason Kidd at this point.

-Jason "fun fact that will probably win you a bar bet... Isaiah Thomas never ever finished higher than 5th in the MVP race... he was 5th in 85 and 8th in 87" Evans
I was very surprised to see Isiah never finished higher than 7th in MVP balloting. Cool fact. I am enjoying this thread hijack and am not sure where Paul should rank. He hasn't had terrible supporting casts so I think it is reasonable to wonder why his teams have had so little playoff success.

Here's a nice head-to-head comparison:

http://www.landofbasketball.com/player_comparison/jason_kidd_vs_chris_paul.htm

Summary: Kidd is a better rebounder and had more team success but was worse in most individual statistical categories. Kidd did win a championship but only when he was way past his prime -- not sure it should count.

http://www.landofbasketball.com/player_comparison/steve_nash_vs_chris_paul.htm

Summary: Nash is a more accurate shooter (but shot less) and of course two-time MVP, but he was worse in most other individual statistical categories., especially defense. I love Nash -- 7 seconds or less was what first really got me into the NBA, but those teams underperformed in the playoffs worse than CP3's teams did and CP3 consistently outplayed Nash head-to-head even then IIRC, and Nash's time as an elite PG was much shorter than Paul's. Nash's MVPs were very much team success awards. If you are building a franchise and need to choose between prime Nash and CP3, how much of that success do you think came from Nash vs D'Antoni vs a combination?

All three are great players, but CP3 holds his own easily. I think it all just depends how much you blame him for failure of the Clippers to be great, but they've had a ton of injuries and CP3 always seems to be the one player on that team that really brings it in the playoffs. He's certainly the only player on that team to really have a reputation as being a winner and a competitor.
I am a Nash fan and agree his defence is a factor in comparisons with Chris Paul and Nash's relative lack of playoff success needs to be thought about when ranking him as an all-time great point guard (as well as a Robert Horry hip check?). I also agree that CP3 has been elite much longer which is very impressive. I disagree that Nash's MVPs were team success awards any more than Magic's were. They both got them because they made everyone around them much better which made their teams better. That's a definition of a great player, point guard and MVP. I'm not sure where to rank them head-to-head or compared to Kidd or Isaiah but enjoy the discussion. I like looking at all-league honours in these comparisons:
Nash 3 first team, 2 2nd teams, 2 3rd teams, 2 MVPs
Thomas 4 first teams, 2 2nd teams, 1 playoffs MVP, 2 titles
Kidd 5 first teams, 1 2nd team, 3 1st team all-D, 2 2nd team all-D
Paul 4 first teams, 3 2nd teams, 1 3rd team, 6 1st team all-D, 2 2nd team all-D
I'm not sure how much that helps.
NS"did the internet ruin bar bets"DukeFan

[JasonEvans]

One more CP3 thing to mention. I think someone said, "Top 3" when talking about Chris Paul. Look, as others have said I think we can maybe debate top 5, but top 3 is locked. There ain't nobody knocking on the door to boot one of Stockton, Magic, or the Big O from the top of the pantheon, right?

[darthur]

I am a Nash fan and agree his defence is a factor in comparisons with Chris Paul and Nash's relative lack of playoff success needs to be thought about when ranking him as an all-time great point guard (as well as a Robert Horry hip check?).

I hated the Spurs for yeeeaaaars after that :(.


I disagree that Nash's MVPs were team success awards any more than Magic's were. They both got them because they made everyone around them much better which made their teams better. That's a definition of a great player, point guard and MVP.

I think we agree here. Nash got MVPs not because of his individual stats (which were good but still well below other MVPs) but because he was credited with intangibles that made the Suns what they were. How much you like Nash and dislike CP3 depends a lot on how much you believe that kind of argument, and of course how much you enjoy the Suns' high-risk style :).

It's just so easy to waffle back-and-forth on the important of team success. How much credit does Nash get for the Suns' rise compared to D'Antoni? How much blame does Nash get for failing repeatedly against the Spurs in the playoffs, vs understanding the Spurs were great and individual matchups can make a big difference? How do you compare competition? My feeling is OKC/GS/SA in the last few years are better than Nash's competition but I don't have much to back that up beyond vague memories.

PS: I would never dare to compare with much older players -- I just didn't see them. I think everyone believe Magic is #1 in point guard ratings right? Is it clear after that? It used to me a mystery to me how the Big O got the stats he did, but we just saw Westbrook do similar stuff stats-wise, and I for one do still think CP3 is better than Westbrook. Comparisons are hard!

[duke4ever19]

One more CP3 thing to mention. I think someone said, "Top 3" when talking about Chris Paul. Look, as others have said I think we can maybe debate top 5, but top 3 is locked. There ain't nobody knocking on the door to boot one of Stockton, Magic, or the Big O from the top of the pantheon, right?

I'm sure most everyone here is familiar with BBALLBREAKDOWN's excellent videos. Admittedly, this one about Stockton and Chris Paul is a bit more on the "fluffy" side compared to his other videos, but it's still worth a quick watch.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SUWwDzBkUdw

[Exnicios]

Here's a nice head-to-head comparison:

http://www.landofbasketball.com/player_comparison/jason_kidd_vs_chris_paul.htm

Summary: Kidd is a better rebounder and had more team success but was worse in most individual statistical categories. Kidd did win a championship but only when he was way past his prime -- not sure it should count.

http://www.landofbasketball.com/player_comparison/steve_nash_vs_chris_paul.htm

Summary: Nash is a more accurate shooter (but shot less) and of course two-time MVP, but he was worse in most other individual statistical categories., especially defense. I love Nash -- 7 seconds or less was what first really got me into the NBA, but those teams underperformed in the playoffs worse than CP3's teams did and CP3 consistently outplayed Nash head-to-head even then IIRC, and Nash's time as an elite PG was much shorter than Paul's. Nash's MVPs were very much team success awards. If you are building a franchise and need to choose between prime Nash and CP3, how much of that success do you think came from Nash vs D'Antoni vs a combination?

All three are great players, but CP3 holds his own easily. I think it all just depends how much you blame him for failure of the Clippers to be great, but they've had a ton of injuries and CP3 always seems to be the one player on that team that really brings it in the playoffs. He's certainly the only player on that team to really have a reputation as being a winner and a competitor.

Regarding Jason Kidd and how much legacy credit he deserves for his 2011 championship with the Mavs--Kidd was indeed past his prime, but he still started 80 games for that team, led the Mavs in minutes, and was second on the team in VORP (3.4 compared to Dirk's 3.7) and third in Win Shares (behind Dirk and Tyson Chandler). In the playoffs, he played the second most minutes on the Mavs (behind Dirk), and led the team in VORP. Kidd's WS/48 and PER were lower than his Prime era levels (both in the playoffs and the regular season) but he was still a quality starter for the NBA champion that year. I think he absolutely gets some significant credit for that championship, just not "best player on a champion" credit. I think Kidd's level of credit for 2011 is similar to Kyrie (second in most advanced stat categories to Lebron in last year's playoffs) getting credit for the 2016 title, and a fairly long way removed from 37 year old Gary Payton winning a title in 2006 as the Heat's 5th or 6th best player.

By the way, all referenced stats are from Kidd's basketball reference page (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/k/kiddja01.html) and the 2011 Mavs page (http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/DAL/2011.html).

[LasVegas]

Lebron dominating. The raptors just have no one to check him.

[vick]

Here's a nice head-to-head comparison:

http://www.landofbasketball.com/player_comparison/jason_kidd_vs_chris_paul.htm

Summary: Kidd is a better rebounder and had more team success but was worse in most individual statistical categories. Kidd did win a championship but only when he was way past his prime -- not sure it should count.

http://www.landofbasketball.com/player_comparison/steve_nash_vs_chris_paul.htm

Summary: Nash is a more accurate shooter (but shot less) and of course two-time MVP, but he was worse in most other individual statistical categories., especially defense. I love Nash -- 7 seconds or less was what first really got me into the NBA, but those teams underperformed in the playoffs worse than CP3's teams did and CP3 consistently outplayed Nash head-to-head even then IIRC, and Nash's time as an elite PG was much shorter than Paul's. Nash's MVPs were very much team success awards. If you are building a franchise and need to choose between prime Nash and CP3, how much of that success do you think came from Nash vs D'Antoni vs a combination?

All three are great players, but CP3 holds his own easily. I think it all just depends how much you blame him for failure of the Clippers to be great, but they've had a ton of injuries and CP3 always seems to be the one player on that team that really brings it in the playoffs. He's certainly the only player on that team to really have a reputation as being a winner and a competitor.

Nash's box-score "advanced" stats (Win Shares, BPM/VORP, etc.) probably underrate him a bit, as his defense, while not stellar, was not as atrocious as it looks statistically. He just didn't get much in the way of rebounds and steals. Plus-minus stats I believe had him as a basically average defender.


One more CP3 thing to mention. I think someone said, "Top 3" when talking about Chris Paul. Look, as others have said I think we can maybe debate top 5, but top 3 is locked. There ain't nobody knocking on the door to boot one of Stockton, Magic, or the Big O from the top of the pantheon, right?

I have encountered plenty of psychotic Isiah Thomas fans who disagree, though I am with you. The regular season should count for something (actually a lot).

[darthur]

Tony Parker went down with non-contact knee injury. Looked really really bad to me. :(

[rsvman]

Tony Parker went down with non-contact knee injury. Looked really really bad to me. :(

That's not good for the Spurs. Sounds like they don't think he'll be back anytime soon.

[Duke79UNLV77]

I think Kidd's level of credit for 2011 is similar to Kyrie (second in most advanced stat categories to Lebron in last year's playoffs) getting credit for the 2016 title, and a fairly long way removed from 37 year old Gary Payton winning a title in 2006 as the Heat's 5th or 6th best player.

I was always a fan of Kidd's game. He played so long that some forget that he was pretty athletic and certainly very strong as a younger player, much like people forget that Maddux once had decent pop on his fastball. That said, I think you're overstating your argument. Kidd averaged 9.3 ppg on 40% shooting in the 2011 playoffs. Kyrie averaged 25.2 ppg on 47.5% shooting, including 44% from 3 in the 2016 playoffs. Kyrie also had the 4th best defensive rating on either team in the Finals and, as I recall, hit a fairly big shot. In my view, for some reason, including on this Board, Kyrie is in some ways one of the more underrated stars in the NBA.

[JNort]

I was always a fan of Kidd's game. He played so long that some forget that he was pretty athletic and certainly very strong as a younger player, much like people forget that Maddux once had decent pop on his fastball. That said, I think you're overstating your argument. Kidd averaged 9.3 ppg on 40% shooting in the 2011 playoffs. Kyrie averaged 25.2 ppg on 47.5% shooting, including 44% from 3 in the 2016 playoffs. Kyrie also had the 4th best defensive rating on either team in the Finals and, as I recall, hit a fairly big shot. In my view, for some reason, including on this Board, Kyrie is in some ways one of the more underrated stars in the NBA.

I think much of it has to do with two or 3 things. 1st his defense during the regular season is usually abysmal or down right embarrassing especially considering we know he can be a great defender when he he chooses. 2nd he's not the star of the team while Bron is there so it takes a bit of shine away from him. 3rd for a pg he gets very few assists, I've found I view Kyrie in a better light once I start thinking of him as a shooting guard since LeBron technically is the real pg if that team.

[JasonEvans]

3rd for a pg he gets very few assists, I've found I view Kyrie in a better light once I start thinking of him as a shooting guard since LeBron technically is the real pg if that team.

Kyrie's assist numbers are truly bizarre. Some games he isn't passing the ball much at all, others he is dishing like the best of them. In the 4 games against Indiana in the first round of the playoffs he averaged 3.0 assists per game, basically what a SG or SF might average. In the 2 games thus far against the Raptors he has dished 10 and 11 assists, the kind of numbers a big-time PG would have. It is like he has a different role on the team from night-to-night... really strange.

Here is a chart of Kyrie's assists over the past 16 games. Absolutely no rhyme or reason.
https://image.ibb.co/fOfPAk/Capture.jpg

3 games with 0... 4 games with 9 or more. You figure it out cause I sure can't.

-Jason "I do agree with the notion that Kyrie's rep is being held back by being second-banana to Lebron, but I'm betting Kyrie does not mind playing the Scottie Pippin role and his rep will increase as the rings pile up" Evans

[Troublemaker]

Lebron dominating. The raptors just have no one to check him.

I think PJ Tucker could do a pretty decent job, but he only played 16 minutes. It just seems to always take Dwayne Casey 2-3 games in a series to figure out his best lineups and rotation against the opponent. That said, good to see the Cavs play a second-consecutive game of good defense against the NBA's #6 offense during the regular season. Maybe they saved the switch-flipping for the second round. I don't think the Cavs are ready to stop the Warriors or anything, but at this level of effort, they really are the huge favorite in the East. Hopefully the effort continues on the road.

[JasonEvans]

Did Marcus Morris switch places with his identical twin brother (https://theringer.com/2017-nba-playoffs-markieff-marcus-morris-twins-conspiracy-corner-ea07a7499f8c)Markeiff Morris so the healthy Morris would be able to play in game 2 of the Wiz-Celtics series?


In Game 1 of the Eastern Conference semifinal between the Wizards and Celtics, Markieff Morris went down and stayed down after Al Horford’s foot undercut him on a shot attempt. He left the game with an ankle sprain after having played just 11 minutes, robbing Washington of one of its most versatile weapons. Judging from the way his ankle splayed to an unhealthy right angle, it seemed like he’d be out for some time.

Then, on Tuesday night, Morris played his best game of the playoffs, hitting his first four field goal attempts and finishing with 16 points, six rebounds, and some pretty assists. He showed no signs of injury.

Perhaps Markieff just made an amazing recovery. Or perhaps it was Markieff’s identical twin brother, Marcus, who plays for the eliminated Pistons, dressed up as Markieff. Marcus is healthy, unoccupied, and, well, looks exactly like Markieff.https://pbs.twimg.com/media/C-3JuHlXUAAcvar.jpg



-Jason "This may be my favorite story of the playoffs" Evans

[JasonEvans]

Tony Parker apparently tore his left quad in last night's game. He is done for the playoffs.

This is bad for the Spurs, but maybe not a total disaster. Parker's role has diminished in recent years.

[kAzE]

Did Marcus Morris switch places with his identical twin brother (https://theringer.com/2017-nba-playoffs-markieff-marcus-morris-twins-conspiracy-corner-ea07a7499f8c)Markeiff Morris so the healthy Morris would be able to play in game 2 of the Wiz-Celtics series?

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/C-3JuHlXUAAcvar.jpg



-Jason "This may be my favorite story of the playoffs" Evans

Is it creepy to anyone else that they have identical full body tattoos?

[PirateDevil119]

Did Marcus Morris switch places with his identical twin brother (https://theringer.com/2017-nba-playoffs-markieff-marcus-morris-twins-conspiracy-corner-ea07a7499f8c)Markeiff Morris so the healthy Morris would be able to play in game 2 of the Wiz-Celtics series?

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/C-3JuHlXUAAcvar.jpg



-Jason "This may be my favorite story of the playoffs" Evans

It appears they even have matching tattoos! That's a new level of brotherhood. They could be like Christian Bale in that magician movie.

Edit: I see someone noticed this before me...still creepy though.