Kennard Declares for the NBA Draft

[WVDUKEFAN]

http://www.goduke.com/ViewArticle.dbml?DB_OEM_ID=4200&ATCLID=211550405

[CarmenWallaceWade]

Jeff Goodman reporting it:

https://t.co/brcmiBShiK

[Troublemaker]

http://www.goduke.com/ViewArticle.dbml?SPSID=22724&SPID=1845&DB_LANG=C&ATCLID=211550405&DB_OEM_ID=4200


“After considerable reflection, prayer and consultation with my family and coaches, I have decided to take the next step in pursuing my basketball dreams by entering the NBA Draft,” Kennard said. “Being a member of the Duke Basketball brotherhood is always going to be special to me. I have nothing but love and respect for everyone in the Duke program. I want to thank my coaches, teammates, the best fans in the game and everyone in Franklin for being by my side every step of this journey. I have a lot of hard work ahead of me, but I’m confident that I’m ready and have a great foundation for success at the NBA level.”

[vfefrenzy]

Good for Luke, bad for Duke. I'll certainly miss him.

[DukeWarhead]

Noooooooooooooooooooo.
Grayson, please stick around. We need you.
Damn.
Not diggin' this.

[Devilwin]

http://www.goduke.com/ViewArticle.dbml?SPSID=22724&SPID=1845&DB_LANG=C&ATCLID=211550405&DB_OEM_ID=4200


“After considerable reflection, prayer and consultation with my family and coaches, I have decided to take the next step in pursuing my basketball dreams by entering the NBA Draft,” Kennard said. “Being a member of the Duke Basketball brotherhood is always going to be special to me. I have nothing but love and respect for everyone in the Duke program. I want to thank my coaches, teammates, the best fans in the game and everyone in Franklin for being by my side every step of this journey. I have a lot of hard work ahead of me, but I’m confident that I’m ready and have a great foundation for success at the NBA level.”

Blah, blah. Pardon me if I don't boogaloo..:mad:

[DukieInKansas]

Not the news I wanted to see. Please don't have signed with an agent! crossing fingers (but knowing that won't help)

Good luck, Luke.

[Matches]

Not the news I wanted to see. Please don't have signed with an agent! crossing fingers (but knowing that won't help)

Good luck, Luke.

Per Stephen Wiseman on Twitter, Kennard will sign with an agent. It appears he'll be drafted somewhere in the 20-25 range so likely a guaranteed contract and (hopefully) a pretty good situation on a playoff caliber team.

[Newton_14]

Not the news I wanted to see. Please don't have signed with an agent! crossing fingers (but knowing that won't help)

Good luck, Luke.

Duke players don't test the waters historically. If they declare they go. This was expected. I expect Grayson will announce he is staying soon.

[AtlBluRew]

I wish him all the success in the world, but I REALLY wanted him back next year. *sigh*

[Troublemaker]

Not the news I wanted to see. Please don't have signed with an agent! crossing fingers (but knowing that won't help)

Good luck, Luke.

He signed with an agent. Not sure a Duke player has done the "test the waters" thing yet. The info we provide to them is solid.

[DukeWarhead]

I expect Grayson will announce he is staying soon.

Hoping you are correct, fo sho.

[WHOneedsSOX]

Darn I really thought he would stay another year. Oh well, good luck Luke! Go sign that hair care endorsement!

[miramar]

I don't even want to think what would have happened without Luke this year, so he has earned his expected first-round draft status.

I wish him all the best and I can only hope that Grayson will stick around so that he can also come out as a first rounder.

[curtis325]

Luke saw the terrible things that happened to Grayson in his Junior season. He also saw the terrible things that happen to Duke players feet because of the terrible shoes and the terrible floor. Then he made the wise decision to go out on top.

Good luck to him and thanks for all the thrills--especially that Wake game.

[NM Duke Fan]

This is what I had been expecting for awhile now, so not at all suprised. Seeing him at I believe #16 on probably the most accurate draft site pretty much convinced me early this week that it was inevitable. And it is likely that he made a wise decision, strike while the iron is hot and your draft stock is high from a very good year (except the last 2 games of the season). His growth spurt over the last year and half or so only helped him with his additional height, and it is obvious to NBA scouts that he can be a diverse offensive weapon. Best of success to you Luke, and keep working on your D! May you live long and prosper in the Big League, you will be a great representative of Duke.

[Furniture]

Gosh. I almost teared up when I read it. Can't wish this kid enough good luck and wishes!

[scottdude8]

This decision reminds me a lot of Nik Stauskas' at Michigan a few years ago. Just a shooter as a freshman, huge breakout season as a sophomore, could've probably used another year in college to improve and become more well rounded but declared with all expectations to be a first rounder.

While I'm disappointed because I loved watching Luke and was salivating at the prospect of him as a junior, I've made it my policy to never begrudge a player declaring when they know they'll be a first round pick... otherwise I'd drive myself mad. Good luck Luke, thanks for all the memories... you'll always be a Blue Devil.

[kAzE]

Damn. I'm disappointed as a Duke fan, but happy for Luke. There's no question in my mind that he will have success at the next level. His basketball IQ and incredible level of skill will translate beautifully to the next level, and whoever drafts him will be getting one hell of a scorer.

Best of luck, Luke. May the Force be with you!

[luburch]

Originally thought Grayson would be the next jersey in the rafters. Had the same hope for Kennard. Can't blame him for leaving. Strike while the iron is hot.

He should land with a good team. Once he gets it figure out on the defensive end, he'll be a fine NBA player.

[dukefan_828]

Blah, blah. Pardon me if I don't boogaloo..:mad:

Yup im getting about sick of it devil :mad::mad:

[pfrduke]

Apropos of the recruiting philosophy discussions we have been having on the board, this shows how hard it is to recruit top flight 4-year talent that actually stays for four years. My suspicion is the staff saw Luke as someone who would be around for at least 3, if not the full 4, years, and yet we only got him for 2.

[Troublemaker]

Originally thought Grayson would be the next jersey in the rafters. Had the same hope for Kennard. Can't blame him for leaving. Strike while the iron is hot.

Yeah, November me was pretty certain Luke was going to be a 3-4 year player, and that's with me expecting that he'd have a great season. Never dreamt that he could be a first-rounder in a deep draft. The NBA has changed, and players like him have more value now. Props to the league, and props to Luke for putting himself in this position.

[kAzE]

Apropos of the recruiting philosophy discussions we have been having on the board, this shows how hard it is to recruit top flight 4-year talent that actually stays for four years. My suspicion is the staff saw Luke as someone who would be around for at least 3, if not the full 4, years, and yet we only got him for 2.

Additionally, the new TV deal and the ever rising salary cap is making it harder and harder for guys to say no to the NBA. NBA contracts are only getting bigger and bigger, and giving up years of potential 8 figure incomes is hard to pass up if you're projected as a first rounder. It's depressing as a Duke fan, for sure.

[DukeFanSince1990]

Yup im getting about sick of it devil :mad::mad:

You would go if you had the chance at millions. Just be glad for the kid.

[Henderson]

He gave us his best. I am grateful, not sad.

[gam7]

He signed with an agent. Not sure a Duke player has done the "test the waters" thing yet. The info we provide to them is solid.

He has not signed with an agent yet, but says he will.

Mason tested the waters.

[kshepinthehouse]

Had Luke played at UNC he would have developed a lot slower and would have been around for all 4 years.

[Edouble]

Damn. I'm disappointed as a Duke fan, but happy for Luke. There's no question in my mind that he will have success at the next level. His basketball IQ and incredible level of skill will translate beautifully to the next level, and whoever drafts him will be getting one hell of a scorer.

Best of luck, Luke. May the Force be with you!

I'll go on record and say that I agree 100% with this. I've seen some talk about Luke not being a good fit for the NBA. I completely disagree. He'll stick for 12+ years. I am gonna really enjoy watching him play in the league. He's gonna make it look effortless.

[Olympic Fan]

The official release says that he will sign with an agent.

He's gone.

Thanks for the two years and best of luck in the NBA.

Can't say I'm happy about this, but at the same time, I don't blame Luke for doing what is best for him.

Now the spotlight is on Grayson? Please don't keep us in suspense.

[flyingdutchdevil]

You're living your dream! Awesome!

This isn't surprising in the slightest. He didn't want to risk not being a first round pick next year, ala Grayson.

I'm proud of Kennard. He added consistency to what was a very inconsistent season.

Thanks for the two years! Hope you come back and get your degree one day!

[kAzE]

I've seen some talk about Luke not being a good fit for the NBA. I completely disagree. He'll stick for 12+ years. I am gonna really enjoy watching him play in the league. He's gonna make it look effortless.

I'm not sure how the end of the first round will work itself out, but I would absolutely LOVE to see Luke on the Celtics, Spurs, Rockets, or Warriors. He would thrive in a high tempo offense designed to get open 3s.

As a Bandwagon Bucks fan, I wouldn't mind seeing him in Milwaukee, either. We need some shooting to help space the floor for Giannis . . .

[Devilwin]

We are sitting here watching our great team fall to ashes, and we are supposed to be happy about it. Don't think so..Of course we wish him success, but come on people...:confused:

[Ichabod Drain]

We are sitting here watching our great team fall to ashes, and we are supposed to be happy about it. Don't think so..Of course we wish him success, but come on people...:confused:

Fall to ashes? There's a very strong chance we are a pre season top 10 team next year. Possibly top five.

[BigZ]

The key to next season's team will be Jackson. I see him having a Sophmore year similar to Grayson and Luke

[brlftz]

We are sitting here watching our great team fall to ashes, and we are supposed to be happy about it. Don't think so..Of course we wish him success, but come on people...:confused:

seriously?!? yes, we ARE supposed to be happy for them. you're suggesting how this affects you as a fan is more important than the rest of their lives?

[flyingdutchdevil]

seriously?!? yes, we ARE supposed to be happy for them. you're suggesting how this affects you as a fan is more important than the rest of their lives?

Some people are just selfish...

[kAzE]

We are sitting here watching our great team fall to ashes, and we are supposed to be happy about it. Don't think so..Of course we wish him success, but come on people...:confused:

It is possible to be happy for Luke and bummed for Duke at the same time, you know . . . .

[Natty_B]

We are sitting here watching our great team fall to ashes, and we are supposed to be happy about it. Don't think so..Of course we wish him success, but come on people...:confused:

Kennard, Allen and Knox were never all going to be at Duke next year. There is only one basketball to go around. Having 2 out of 3 (still very possible according to informed sources) would be awesome.

[Troublemaker]

We are sitting here watching our great team fall to ashes, and we are supposed to be happy about it. Don't think so..Of course we wish him success, but come on people...:confused:

Nothing truly unexpected has happened so far. But we do need Frank and Grayson back and to land at least one more 2017 recruit at a minimum (but preferably two recruits). As of now, I expect all three to occur.

[Nugget]

Yeah, November me was pretty certain Luke was going to be a 3-4 year player, and that's with me expecting that he'd have a great season. Never dreamt that he could be a first-rounder in a deep draft. The NBA has changed, and players like him have more value now. Props to the league, and props to Luke for putting himself in this position.

Ditto. I never expected (and imagine Coach K and the staff, and even Luke himself, never expected) Luke to be in this position now.

But, given the year he had and the pretty consistent indications that Luke is solidly a first round pick, his decision to go is wholly understandable.

[weezie]

Late to the water cooler here but gotta say, I am really surprised. Shows how little I know about anything related to Duke Basketball. :confused:

[Troublemaker]

One other thing.

For anyone worried that we're going to have mass departures every offseason from now on, you'll be happy to hear that the 2018 high school class projects to have very few OADs (e.g. Zion Williamson, Marvin Bagley). That's the class that will probably re-set Duke recruiting (not necessarily by choice). We have a chance to get multiple 2-to-4 year players from that class.

[fuse]

He gave us his best. I am grateful, not sad.

This. One thousand times this.

What a season Duke had in large part to what a season Luke had.

[azzefkram]

Congrats Luke. Best of luck at the next level and thank you for an awesome two years.

[TKG]

Fall to ashes? There's a very strong chance we are a pre season top 10 team next year. Possibly top five.

Remind me, where were we ranked in the preseason for the 2016-17 season? Just messing with you! :p:p

[mattman91]

Here's to hoping Luke's NBA career lasts longer than his hair!

Good luck, Luke!

#thebrotherhood

[Doria]

Here's to hoping Luke's NBA Career lasts longer than his hair!

Good Luck, Luke!

#thebrotherhood

That shouldn't be a high bar to clear!

Good luck, Luke. You worked hard to put yourself in this position, and I hope everything turns out the way you want! Thanks for all the good memories!

[Indoor66]

He also saw the terrible things that happen to Duke players feet because of the terrible shoes and the terrible floor. Then he made the wise decision to go out on top.

What are you talking with the above?

[Indoor66]

I'll go on record and say that I agree 100% with this. I've seen some talk about Luke not being a good fit for the NBA. I completely disagree. He'll stick for 12+ years. I am gonna really enjoy watching him play in the league. He's gonna make it look effortless.

I would love to see him in Miami.

[curtis325]

What are you talking with the above?

A joke that flopped. My apologies.

[Jackson]

We need Grayson to stay. With him, I like our chance to play next April. I really just want to know. The waiting for Grayson, Duval and Knox is stressing me out!

[TKG]

The Magnificent Seven:

Giles
Jefferson
Jeter
Jones
Kennard
Obi
Tatum

[FadedTackyShirt]

He gave us his best. I am grateful, not sad.

No kidding. Pretty clear why not even the nastiest rival fans hate on Grant Hill or Luke. Tear it up in the NBA, but hopefully eventually finish up your Duke degree.

[MPandolfi]

His development freshman to sophomore year was absolutely amazing. Definitely didn't see him leaving so early when he arrived, but his play this year makes this decision a no-brainer in my opinion.

Best of luck, Luke!

[Duke95]

Logical move and very much expected. Smart decision by Luke. Wish him all the best.

[eddiehaskell]

This happened quick. In early January I thought 90% chance of coming back.

[WiJoe]

This decision reminds me a lot of Nik Stauskas' at Michigan a few years ago.

Except, Stauskas wasn't nearly as good as he acted on the court, still isn't, and never will be.

None of that in Luke. Saw him play the summer before his senior year. Liked his attitude, plus, he rocked Duke gear while playing in one oft he big AAU tournaments.

Good luck, 2017 ACC tournament MVP!!!!!!

[Billy Dat]

Congratulations, Luke! My first glimpse of him was coming off the bench for the FIBA Jr. Worlds squad that featured Tyus, Justise, Alonzo Trier, Myles Turner, Stanley Johnson and on and on. He basically led that team in scoring as a non-starter (an indication of how that team dominated the tournament). I quickly thought he was an offensive savant and he certainly lived up to that first impression. Interestingly, of the 12 kids on that team, only Trier, Chase and Jalen Brunson (for now) are either not in the NBA or haven't declared...and that's probably because they were some of the youngest guys on the team.

For the rest of K's tenure, we are going to go all in with the best talent he and the staff can recruit. That talent either lives up to the hype and is gone in 1-2 years, or, feels like they aren't going to see the floor and transfers after 2. What UNC was able to do with having multiple 5 star guys stay for 3 years basically doesn't happen anywhere and is probably an anomaly - as others have articulated in other threads. The only change will be if kids can jump straight to the pros.

[Duke79UNLV77]

He was one of the most fun Devils ever to watch on offense. For those who point to Allen and suggest he would have been foolish to return, that seems to be recency bias. There's no particular reason to think he would have the same injuries and issues that Allen had this year. I saw a potential parallel to Reddick's senior year leap, when some people thought he topped out after his junior year. Luke can improve on movement without the ball, ridiculous fitness he'll need, defense, etc. Plus, next year's draft should be weaker. On the other hand, if he's projected in the teens, instead of the fringe of the first round, that's another choice. Unfortunately, his shooting for his last game also is reminiscent of JJ's all 4 of his years.

[COYS]

I am happy for Luke while also being happy that I had the privilege to root for him for two seasons. He was absolutely incredible on offense this year. He increased his shot volume AND his efficiency in a way that is rarely seen. And while he doesn't fit the typical profile of an NBA scorer, his skill level is so high, his repertoire of skills is so vast, and his release is so quick, I think he can surprise people at the next level. I never expected him to progress so quickly, but it's a testament to how incredible he was this year that he was able to go from "potential NBA player after four years in college" to "first round pick after sophomore season."

Meanwhile, there are a lot of back court minutes available now regardless of what Grayson decides. Frank will be ready. Who will join him?

[lotusland]

Best of luck Luke - hate yo see you go!

Gonna be a tough trick to get your Jersey in the rafters these days. If Grayson comes back, wins POY and a Natty he's got my vote! That and about $5 will get him a latte at Starbucks.

[OZZIE4DUKE]

Sorry, I'm not happy he's leaving. Don't let the door hit you on the way out, Luke. Best wishes. Whatever. http://www.crazietalk.net/ourhouse/images/smilies/devil9f.gif

[scottdude8]

Except, Stauskas wasn't nearly as good as he acted on the court, still isn't, and never will be.

None of that in Luke. Saw him play the summer before his senior year. Liked his attitude, plus, he rocked Duke gear while playing in one oft he big AAU tournaments.

Good luck, 2017 ACC tournament MVP!!!!!!

What do you have against Stauskas, haha? He was a starter for the national runners up his freshman year and the star of on an Elite 8 and Conference Champion team his sophomore year. And there were zero reports of there ever being attitude/teammate problems with him, so I'm not sure what you're referring to. He definitely was drafted higher than he should've been, but that was partially due to the weak draft class that year and definitely wasn't his fault... and he's been a solid NBA player, averaging 10 points a game this year (albeit with the Sixers).

I've said all year that Luke is a better version of Stauskas, and their career trajectories were so similar that it's a useful comparison to make when trying to project Luke's NBA potential and draft stock. Luke just won't get drafted nearly as high because of the depth of this years draft (and the fact that Stauskas' draft was notoriously weak). I was hoping he would come back from his junior year and potentially play himself into the lottery, which given the relative weakness of next year's draft plus the NBA's emphasis on shooting was a distinct possibility. But like I've said previously, I will never begrudge someone for taking guaranteed millions.

[rsvman]

Well, this is a bummer. I really, really thought we'd see one more year of Luke. IMO, he regressed in the post-season. Yes, I know he won the MVP of the ACC tournament, but he played at a higher level during the regular season. In particular, he had a bad first half in all the games in the ACC tournament. In the NCAA tournament he played pretty much the worst he played all year. Late-season woes made me think that maybe fatigue (physical? emotional?) might have been a factor? The other thought I had is that as the competition got better, it got a bit harder for him to do the things he had done all year. Certainly he got blocked a lot in the last 5 or 6 games; shots that he got off during the season, for the most part.

If the late-season problems were secondary to the level of competition, he's got a long row to hoe in the NBA. The athletes there are bigger, faster, and jump higher, generally speaking. I feel like he's smart enough, crafty enough, and gifted enough to find a way, but I think it will be a few years before he really gets going. I also think he would have benefitted from one more year of college, but some of that could just be me being selfish.

It stings to lose him, but I wish him well. I hope he succeeds and has fun doing it.

[Devilwin]

First, we are guaranteed nothing yet as far as these new recruits go. We got three good ones so far, and MAYBE we get a couple more. Yes, I am bummed. It's always the NBA and their floods of cash. Look who just won the title. Maybe one departs, other than the grads. Look at Illinois last year. I know we took the title in 2015 with 3 oads, but that's the exception rather than the norm. (I know Luke was a 2 and done) But I am still still sick of the Cheats winning with veterans and so many of our guys leaving. I do wish Luke well, and was happy he WAS a Blue Devil. I was convinced he'd be the one to stay, not Grayson. I guess that's why I am down.

[pfrduke]

Look at Illinois last year.

???

Was this supposed to refer to Villanova?

[lotusland]

I do wonder if the draft combine could possibly hurt his draft position but I guess it's already well know that he's not especially quick or springy.

[Kedsy]

???

Was this supposed to refer to Villanova?

Forget it, he's rolling.

[MCFinARL]

He was one of the most fun Devils ever to watch on offense. For those who point to Allen and suggest he would have been foolish to return, that seems to be recency bias. There's no particular reason to think he would have the same injuries and issues that Allen had this year. I saw a potential parallel to Reddick's senior year leap, when some people thought he topped out after his junior year. Luke can improve on movement without the ball, ridiculous fitness he'll need, defense, etc. Plus, next year's draft should be weaker. On the other hand, if he's projected in the teens, instead of the fringe of the first round, that's another choice. Unfortunately, his shooting for his last game also is reminiscent of JJ's all 4 of his years.

Well, it may be recency bias, but Luke is recent. Granted his path would not likely follow Grayson's exactly, it has to have influenced him to see what can happen when a player returns after a great year and significantly hurts his draft status. Next year's team will be different (maybe Luke's role would change a bit, or the players wouldn't complement each other as well as this year's did), next year's NCAA will be different (maybe eve if he continues to play at this level he would not repeat as an All-American), and even allowing for the general assumption that next year's draft will be weaker, it's clear there are no guarantees.

[Devilwin]

???

Was this supposed to refer to Villanova?
Yes. My bad..lol

[duke74]

Forget it, he's rolling.

I got this! :) (Was on a few nights ago)

[DukeWarhead]

The Magnificent Seven:

Giles
Jefferson
Jeter
Jones
Kennard
Obi
Tatum

I wonder if we've ever had as much turnover (grads, transfers, early exits) in one offseason as this one (and still not sure it's done.) Would be nice if one of the stats hounds could check it out.

[duke74]

Well, it may be recency bias, but Luke is recent. Granted his path would not likely follow Grayson's exactly, it has to have influenced him to see what can happen when a player returns after a great year and significantly hurts his draft status. Next year's team will be different (maybe Luke's role would change a bit, or the players wouldn't complement each other as well as this year's did), next year's NCAA will be different (maybe eve if he continues to play at this level he would not repeat as an All-American), and even allowing for the general assumption that next year's draft will be weaker, it's clear there are no guarantees.

In anything in life. All comes down to a risk assessment and decisions based on the assessment. (From an ERM prof)

[weezie]

I'm not going this year due to other plans but boy-o, the year end team banquet is going to be a quiet one...

[Bob Green]

I wonder if we've ever had as much turnover (grads, transfers, early exits) in one offseason as this one (and still not sure it's done.)

Six players left at the end of the 98-99 season so that is one less than this year:

Trajan Langdon - grad
Taymon Domzalski - grad
Chris Burgess - transfer
Elton Brand - early
William Avery - early
Corey Maggette - early

[subzero02]

Nooooooooooooooooooooooooo.

Best of luck Luke.....

Nooooooooooooooooooooooooo.

[yancem]

First, we are guaranteed nothing yet as far as these new recruits go. We got three good ones so far, and MAYBE we get a couple more. Yes, I am bummed. It's always the NBA and their floods of cash. Look who just won the title. Maybe one departs, other than the grads. Look at Illinois last year. I know we took the title in 2015 with 3 oads, but that's the exception rather than the norm. (I know Luke was a 2 and done) But I am still still sick of the Cheats winning with veterans and so many of our guys leaving. I do wish Luke well, and was happy he WAS a Blue Devil. I was convinced he'd be the one to stay, not Grayson. I guess that's why I am down.

Well, Bradley has already declared, Jackson almost assuredly will declare and people on 247 are saying that Berry is gone as well. If all three depart unc will have 1 senior (Pinson), one junior with much experience (Maye), 1 5* freshman and some other less talented/experienced pieces. Now Bradley and Berry could change their minds but right now unc's future isn't looking great. Of course they did just win the NC but their days of featuring 4/5* junior and seniors may be over (at least for a few seasons).

[Billy Dat]

First, we are guaranteed nothing yet as far as these new recruits go. We got three good ones so far, and MAYBE we get a couple more. Yes, I am bummed. It's always the NBA and their floods of cash. Look who just won the title. Maybe one departs, other than the grads. Look at Illinois last year. I know we took the title in 2015 with 3 oads, but that's the exception rather than the norm. (I know Luke was a 2 and done) But I am still still sick of the Cheats winning with veterans and so many of our guys leaving. I do wish Luke well, and was happy he WAS a Blue Devil. I was convinced he'd be the one to stay, not Grayson. I guess that's why I am down.

The NCAA tournament is unpredictable. The same Villanova team who won the title using the 4-year-player model that many on DBR are now pining for lost in the second round this year, same as us. That Nova team was considered a favorite to win the title up until the second they lost to Wisconsin. The Heels are the champs, but Duke beat them twice this year, and they were seconds away from losing every game they played after the first round. The Gonzaga team that nearly won the title started 3 transfers playing their first year at the school. Add in freshman phenom Zach Collins and that was basically a first year team. My only point is that it's easy to connect these dots after the fact. I think the inarguable aspect of Duke's change in recruiting success in the 2010s is that K has not figured out how to get teams with large roster turnover to play top 30 defense. The #1 KenPom defense, Gonzaga, did so with guys who had not played together before this year (although they were in their second year in the program). Obviously, Cal also seems to always have his one-and-done teams playing elite defense.

I'm not saying that anyone has to like the way the program is being run from a roster turnover perspective - everyone has a right to their feelings - I'm just not sure we can use the veteran squad model as something to aspire to as a championship blueprint. If you think it's a better blueprint for rooting for the team, I can't argue it. I don't feel that way but I think it's a legitimate feeling.

And as for being surprised about Luke, I think that's simply a matter of whether or not one wants to be immersed in the reality of the NBA draft. Kids who are essentially guaranteed to be first round picks almost always leave. The exceptions are rare. Luke has been a projected first round pick pretty much since his hot start this season, I'd say he was on all the boards since December. Had Grayson not tripped all those kids his 2nd year and tarnished his rep, I think he'd have left after 2 years. The fact that he tripped again this year may be the only thing that gets him to come back - although I have to think that being the poster-boy villain for men's college hoops 2.5 years in a row, which is what he'll be if he comes back, is a big ask. Still, I hope he does. We need him!

[Steven43]

We are sitting here watching our great team fall to ashes, and we are supposed to be happy about it. Don't think so..Of course we wish him success, but come on people...:confused:
Totally agree. I expected Luke to stay for at least three years. I'm very disappointed.

[hudlow]

Do the Devils proud Luke.

Thanks,

...and

next play(er)

[wsb3]

Can't even take an afternoon nap without waking to someone else leaving. That's it. No more naps.

Good Luck Luke..I hope it works out well for you.

[scottdude8]

This thread is a perfect example of the weird place that college basketball fans find themselves in in the era of early NBA entry (I won't say one-and-done era because obviously that wasn't Luke): we obviously want out players to do well and for our team to win, but we simultaneously don't want our players to do too well, because if they do the current system incentivizes them to "take the money and run", for lack of a better phrase. That in turn prevents our team from truly benefitting from their improvement and hurts future iterations of the team. In the last ten or so years the best teams (whether they win the title or not) seem to be teams that have players who underperform early in their careers, allowing them to blossom late (see: Kentucky's undefeated regular season, multiple B1G teams like Wisconsin and Michigan State, the last two years of UNC, etc).

It's a bizarre and often painful world to live in as a college basketball fan, and considering the NBA has no incentive to address issues in the college game it probably isn't going to change any time soon. Still, I think most people acknowledge that a situation like that in baseball, where you either go straight to the draft from high school or are required to stay in school for at least two (or is it three?) years before reentering the draft, would be ideal for basketball as well (and it might even improve the quality of rookie play in the NBA by ensuring only players who are truly "ready" go to the draft). Hopefully we get there sooner rather than later.

[DukieInKansas]

Duke players don't test the waters historically. If they declare they go. This was expected. I expect Grayson will announce he is staying soon.

That was what my mind was saying but my heart was hoping.

[Jeffrey]

IMO, a smart move. Luke needed to reflect on what happened when Grayson was in a similar position after his sophomore season.

[Ima Facultiwyfe]

Well, what do y'all expect? We're a football school!
Love,, Ima

[Jeffrey]

Duke players don't test the waters historically. If they declare they go. This was expected. I expect Grayson will announce he is staying soon.

I agree, Grayson should stay. If he stays, he will have a strong senior season which will put him in a much better draft position.

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

Wow, lots of jilted lovers on this board. Luke doesn't owe us anything. He exemplified Duke basketball for two years, won a lot of games, and got us a fancy banner to hang.

Of course it is disappointing that he isn't going to be on the squad next year, but the reason he won't be around is that he had a spectacular season.

College basketball players are like millenials in the workplace; sticking around until it becomes inconvenient or a better offer comes along. I say that with no degree of judgment, just offer it as a fact.

When Laettner, Hill, and Hurley stuck around 25 years ago... they were already artificats of the old brigade.

The same complications that I (and many of you, I am sure) face in staffing our workplace with young people are paralleled by K's difficulty in keeping players. There aren't necessarily solutions to this, but rather just recognizing the situation is quite useful when making staff/team projections.

Good luck, Luke! Was fun while it lasted.

[TKG]

Well, what do y'all expect? We're a football school!
Love,, Ima


And a women's golf school! And a men's lacrosse school! Proving we are a school!

[Jeffrey]

College basketball players are like millenials in the workplace; sticking around until it becomes inconvenient or a better offer comes along. I say that with no degree of judgment, just offer it as a fact.

However, the NBA players will not be living in their parent's basement when they're 25. I say that with no degree of judgment, just offer it as a fact.

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

However, the NBA players will not be living in their parent's basement when they're 25. I say that with no degree of judgment, just offer it as a fact.

Touché.

[Jeffrey]

It's always the NBA and their floods of cash.

Luke will probably make about $4 million in his first contract (3 seasons). If an employer offered you $4 million to work for them for the next 3 years, would you refuse and do volunteer work instead?

[Newton_14]

However, the NBA players will not be living in their parent's basement when they're 25. I say that with no degree of judgment, just offer it as a fact.

Alas, but some of them actually will...

I always thought Luke would be a 4 yr player but once the collective powers that be started putting him in their mock drafts and started writing articles suggesting he should go, the tide turned just like always on these things. Luke goes from thinking he would be a role player on this year's team and a 3 to 4 yr player, to suddenly contemplating entering the draft and that was all she wrote.

Very much expected and I wish him well. I hope he rocks it and will always pull for him just like all the other NBA Dukies.

Hopefully Grayson will announce soon that he is returning, and we sign Duval and Knox. If those 3 things happen we will have a great group of kids with talent.

[Jeffrey]

Alas, but some of them actually will...



I ignore that group, but must admit, it's well documented the UNC players mature very, very slowly. In their defense, their role model refuses to assume accountability and responsibility for his program's actions, so why should they assume any accountability or responsibility? It would make sense if they're living in their parent's basement when they're 25.

[NM Duke Fan]

Alas, but some of them actually will...

I always thought Luke would be a 4 yr player but once the collective powers that be started putting him in their mock drafts and started writing articles suggesting he should go, the tide turned just like always on these things. Luke goes from thinking he would be a role player on this year's team and a 3 to 4 yr player, to suddenly contemplating entering the draft and that was all she wrote.

Very much expected and I wish him well. I hope he rocks it and will always pull for him just like all the other NBA Dukies.

Hopefully Grayson will announce soon that he is returning, and we sign Duval and Knox. If those 3 things happen we will have a great group of kids with talent.

With the ones we know are returning and the incoming class, that to me is already a done deal, a great group of kids with talent. If any or all of the other 3 are on the team, it will add to that group no doubt.

[WiJoe]

I'm getting numb to this. If Grayson, Frank, Vrank, Javin, Jack and the Little Admiral declared, I wouldn't be surprised.

The college game is still best, but not as good as it was, say, five years ago.

[NSDukeFan]

I'm getting numb to this. If Grayson, Frank, Vrank, Javin, Jack and the Little Admiral declared, I wouldn't be surprised.

The college game is still best, but not as good as it was, say, five years ago.

It was great in March-April of 2015.

[wavedukefan70s]

He will be missed .hope he does well.

[ncexnyc]

Next time a kid says he came to Duke to be a part of something, we know he didn't mean the program, but rather the NBA Draft.;)

Best of luck to Luke and I really can't fault a kid for leaving when someone is throwing millions of dollars at him.

[whereinthehellami]

Luke has been the player I have enjoyed watching the most since Langdon. Luke has an amazing feel for the game. High IQ, sixth sense kind of deal.

Back when I played, I aspired to play like Luke. I could pull off an ocasional crafty move in the lane like Luke but he has a gift. I don't think most people get how hard it is to operate in the the lane when you are undersized and not blessed with NBA athleticism. Good luck Luke, I'm going to miss watching you play.

[Wander]

Still, I think most people acknowledge that a situation like that in baseball, where you either go straight to the draft from high school or are required to stay in school for at least two (or is it three?) years before reentering the draft, would be ideal for basketball as well (and it might even improve the quality of rookie play in the NBA by ensuring only players who are truly "ready" go to the draft).

Nah. I think ideal would be the NBA requiring players to have a college degree to enter the draft (coupled with the NCAA making a lot of reforms to make the college system more fair).

[mgtr]

I certainly didn't want Luke to leave, but apparently he lost my phone number, as he didn't call me before he declared.;) Seriously, I wish him all success in this endeavor, and will watch him as I do JJ and Gerald.

[dukelifer]

Just can't trust kids to develop slowly anymore ;) Looking forward to seeing him at the next level. He has some unique gifts. He is likely to go to a decent team.

[WiJoe]

It was great in March-April of 2015.

absolutely

[Bluedevil114]

My four favorite players ever are JJ Redick, Shane Battier, Bobby Hurley and Trajan Langdon. I really thought Luke was going to beat them all. Two years has been great. He probably could have gone down as one of the best ever at Duke. I expected him to at least graduate and get his jersey retired. I guess I was hoping (selfishly) that would be important enough for him to return. I wish him the best. He was so much fun to watch.

[Fish80]

Luke, may the force be with you.

[flyingdutchdevil]

Just can't trust kids to develop slowly anymore ;) Looking forward to seeing him at the next level. He has some unique gifts. He is likely to go to a decent team.

Yes you can. They just decide to transfer from Duke.

[duke4ever19]

My four favorite players ever are JJ Redick, Shane Battier, Bobby Hurley and Trajan Langdon. I really thought Luke was going to beat them all. Two years has been great. He probably could have gone down as one of the best ever at Duke. I expected him to at least graduate and get his jersey retired. I guess I was hoping (selfishly) that would be important enough for him to return. I wish him the best. He was so much fun to watch.

I don't know the next time I'll see a jersey retirement for a Duke men's basketball player. If Grayson returns, he might be able to make a push for it, but seeing how hard it already is to attain that honor, Grayson may just be the last guy to have legitimate chance to get up in the rafters for a quite a while.

Now I don't know the future (shocking, no?) and perhaps a guy will come along to stick it out four years (or three years and dominate), but I think a lot of this will depend on what the NBA decides to do about the one-and-done rule. I met an NBA scout last year who argued (very spiritedly, I might add) for the one-and-done rule to at least be upped to two years. As he told me (not an exact quote), "The D-League should not exist. There's already enough watered-down basketball being played in the NBA." :p

[Faison1]

It was great in March-April of 2015.

March and April of 2015 were definitely cool, but I do remember thinking how neat it would be to have Rodney Hood and Jabari Parker around....

[FadedTackyShirt]

I don't know the next time I'll see a jersey retirement for a Duke men's basketball player. If Grayson returns, he might be able to make a push for it, but seeing how hard it already is to attain that honor, Grayson may just be the last guy to have legitimate chance to get up in the rafters for a quite a while.

Duke may have NPOYs in the future, but other than potentially Grayson in 2018, they're unlikely
to be upperclassmen, let alone seniors nearing degree completion.

$s and guaranteed contracts are too large now for anyone to resist leaving early if they project anywhere below 25th in the draft.

Conceivably Brand's jersey could be retired if he ever graduates from Duke, but thus far he's given no indication that earning a Duke degree is a goal or priority.

[Devilwin]

Back in the day, you signed up for something, you stuck it out. It was get that degree, and then if you are good enough, the NBA. My whole argument is about honor. If you are that talented, declare before you waste some school's efforts to get you to sign on the line. The NBA is not going anywhere, your money will be there next year. But honor is lacking these days. I see it at work (Fedex Ground) more and more. It's all about the green. Drivers are leaving in unprecedented numbers, many without notice. Management is trying to cut costs, despite making more money than ever before. They refuse to add new routes, and we working Christmas style numbers at least three days a week. Online shopping is the way to go these days, and the workload is tremendous. But work a notice for crying out loud. We had 12 drivers quit in the last five days.
I know this seems like rambling on about unrelated subjects, but I don't see it like that. Like I said, honor no longer enters into thought processes anymore, and it's sad. And I know about the risk of injury factor, but this is rare. We all take risks when we leave home in the morning, don't we?
Someone mentioned hanging retired jersey numbers. If a guy does not stick it out for four years, then no way he gets his number retired.
When I saw how really good Jayson was, it broke my heart to realize he's gone after this year. Imagine if you can a team with Okafor, Jones, Tatum, Winslow, Parker on it...
Sorry, just an old school ramble folks. Things have changed, I know this, but it ain't for the better...

[NYBri]

Sigh.

[freshmanjs]

Someone mentioned hanging retired jersey numbers. If a guy does not stick it out for four years, then no way he gets his number retired.


Do you want JWil's jersey taken down?

[MrPoon]

Congrats Luke!!
Loved being a part of your great story. You are on to great things.
I disagree with those who say its better in the old days, this is good for the kids and they have been good to the program.

[YmoBeThere]

Good luck Luke! You will be missed.

Speaking with a co-worker today, his suggestion was that there be a graduated pay scale for rookie contracts based on educational attainment. One and done with minimal credits(in other words, quit going to school in spring semester) would receive the lowest pay scale and perhaps the shortest guarantee. The longer you stayed in school, the higher the pay and potentially the longer the contract or higher the guaranteed payout each year.

Obviously, many are rushing to get to that second contract, but something like that along with insurance for debilitating injury would change the thought process for some players.

[FadedTackyShirt]

If NBA production were a function of educational attainment, Jeremy Lin would be a better player than LeBron.

Luke would have entered the draft without an agent if K hadn't helped him decide or advised him to stay. K knowingly recruits potential OAD or early entry players with the consent of University leadership. Love Duke and college hoops, but neither makes nor endorses the NBA draft eligibility rules.

The Ivies, Patriot League, DII, and DIII have minimal early entries, but they also play lower quality basketball. OADs and early entry is part of P5 basketball and has been for some time. Personally would prefer baseball, hockey, or NFL type drafts, but P5 hoops is my favorite sport despite the NBA draft rules. MLB is my favorite pro sport, but not because of their draft rules (which are the most sensible of American major sports). Have never been to a Duke baseball game and only went to a few Bulls games while at Duke.

[Indoor66]

Luke has been the player I have enjoyed watching the most since Langdon. Luke has an amazing feel for the game. High IQ, sixth sense kind of deal.

Back when I played, I aspired to play like Luke. I could pull off an ocasional crafty move in the lane like Luke but he has a gift. I don't think most people get how hard it is to operate in the the lane when you are undersized and not blessed with NBA athleticism. Good luck Luke, I'm going to miss watching you play.

Since when is 6'6" undersized?

[wsb3]

Do you want JWil's jersey taken down?

No but I thought at the time the honor should be reserved for players who stay all 4 years. I still feel that way.

I know Jay graduated in 3 years. I understand the arguments for.

I am not saying I am right & you are wrong..Just my old school humble opinion..

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

Just my old school humble opinion..

Lots of those opinions going around these days. Makes some of us old school folks feel, well, old.

[whereinthehellami]

Since when is 6'6" undersized?

That was poorly worded on my part. It was more about how effective Luke was in the lane against longer post players due to his craftiness.

[Ima Facultiwyfe]

Next time a kid says he came to Duke to be a part of something, we know he didn't mean the program, but rather the NBA Draft.;)

Best of luck to Luke and I really can't fault a kid for leaving when someone is throwing millions of dollars at him.

Bingo! It just bees that way. But, DO please excuse me for not drinking that "part of something/family" kool-aid from hear on out.
Love, Ima

[75Crazie]

Nah. I think ideal would be the NBA requiring players to have a college degree to enter the draft (coupled with the NCAA making a lot of reforms to make the college system more fair).
I think I must be humor-deprived, because this looks like a serious quote to me and I don't see how it could be. Why in the world should a college degree be a prerequisite for the NBA draft?

[Matches]

I think I must be humor-deprived, because this looks like a serious quote to me and I don't see how it could be. Why in the world should a college degree be a prerequisite for the NBA draft?

For real. I can't think of a single reason that's not rooted in paternalism or is some variation of "because that would satisfy my desire as a fan to have players stick around college longer."

With no disrespect intended to anyone, there is some major revisionist history going on in this thread. Early entry is of course more prominent now than it used to be, but that has nothing to do with "honor". Guys didn't leave early en masse for the NBA in the 70's and 80's because they couldn't get drafted back then. It was only an option for the very best players (and those guys DID leave early, maybe not AS early but early entry was a thing then too).

It's certainly fine to lament the effect early entry has had on the college game. I miss seeing the Johnny Dawkins of the world play for four years in college, too. But it's absurd to start making moral judgments about kids we've never met based on their career choices. Luke Kennard isn't violating some sort of blood oath by going pro - Coach K recruited him and every other kid on the team with the express knowledge that they might not stay four years. You can lament the landscape all you want, but it's horribly unfair to chastise kids for making the best decisions for them given that landscape. We can quibble or debate about what "best decision" means, but the only guy with a personal stake in that is Luke Kennard. The NBA *won't* "always be there" - that's an easily disprovable falsehood, and it's very easy for fans who have no financial stake in the decision to poo-poo the financial aspect of it.

It's awfully convenient for folks to try to attach some sort of moral component to decisions like these. We're all Duke fans here - we root for laundry, ultimately, and that's fine. But this is a career path for these kids, at least the ones like Kennard who have futures in professional basketball. They don't lack "honor" because they prioritize that career path over getting their jerseys retired.

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

I miss seeing the Johnny Dawkins of the world play for four years in college, too. But it's absurd to start making moral judgments about kids we've never met based on their career choices.

Yes, I completely agree. Is it disappointing and different than the landscape we were once familiar with? Sure. But the landscape changed because of ESPN, NBA TV contracts, coach salaries, shoe deals, etc. Kids today are bigger and stronger at 19 and 20, and have already played on select teams for 10 years when they get to college.

Kennard didn't create the current system any moreso than Grant Hill created the previous one.

You can lament the changes, you can decide you aren't interested anymore, and you can find a new hobby - but it is unfair to fault Luke or anyone else for following his dream when the chance in there.

[bluenorth]

I will definitely miss Kennard's presence on the court. Opposing teams learned not to leave him for a moment, which opened up other opportunities for the rest of the team. Having said that, I felt that his shot was being blocked more as the season progressed. This will be a problem in the NBA, at least in the fourth quarter (when the pros actually play). As far as Luke's height being 6'6", the numbers from the combine always make for interesting reading. My guess is that he'll be about 6'4" without shoes (don't know why they measure both with and without shoes - do some guys wear lifts?). But at the end of the day Luke will be a fine pro for a number of years, and all of these quibbles will be forgotten. Good luck at the next level Luke.

[miramar]

With no disrespect intended to anyone, there is some major revisionist history going on in this thread. Early entry is of course more prominent now than it used to be, but that has nothing to do with "honor". Guys didn't leave early en masse for the NBA in the 70's and 80's because they couldn't get drafted back then. It was only an option for the very best players (and those guys DID leave early, maybe not AS early but early entry was a thing then too).

Plus there is the money the NBA pays nowadays. A #1 pick can sign a three-year contract worth about $15 million, plus or minus 20%.

A #10 pick can sign for almost $7 million, a #20 pick for almost $4 million, and a #30 for $3 million, +/- 20%.

As a point of reference, median household income in the US is about $52,000, which means that if a typical family works for forty years they will earn just over $2 million.

Top players know that if they sign right now, they will have a lot of money that would help their families immediately. Even if they blew out a knee or if their career flamed out, they would have a really large nest egg that would provide income the rest of their lives as long as they didn't do the same stupid things the guys in the 30 for 30 Broke documentary did.

As much as I would love to see players like Luke and Jayson at least one more year, they are doing the right thing for themselves and for their families, so I say go for it and thanks for the memories.

NBA Rookie Scale: http://basketball.realgm.com/nba/info/rookie_scale

[FadedTackyShirt]

Duke chose Dunleavy over Casey Jacobsen and Dun was the better college and NBA player. Both left after three years without degrees. Both married women they met in college. Dun finished his Duke degree early in his NBA career.

Casey spent his 20s and 30s playing mostly abroad. He finally returned to Stanford last Fall (without his wife and three children) to finish his degree. Good for him and his supportive family.

Sincerely hope Kennard and all Duke early entrants eventually earn Duke degrees, but everyone has and is entitled to their own values and aspirations.

[ChillinDuke]

Wow, lots of jilted lovers on this board. Luke doesn't owe us anything. He exemplified Duke basketball for two years, won a lot of games, and got us a fancy banner to hang.

Of course it is disappointing that he isn't going to be on the squad next year, but the reason he won't be around is that he had a spectacular season.

College basketball players are like millenials in the workplace; sticking around until it becomes inconvenient or a better offer comes along. I say that with no degree of judgment, just offer it as a fact.

When Laettner, Hill, and Hurley stuck around 25 years ago... they were already artificats of the old brigade.

The same complications that I (and many of you, I am sure) face in staffing our workplace with young people are paralleled by K's difficulty in keeping players. There aren't necessarily solutions to this, but rather just recognizing the situation is quite useful when making staff/team projections.

Good luck, Luke! Was fun while it lasted.

I know you said the bolded with no judgment. But I do hear this often, and I am technically a millenial so I felt a twinge of irritation when I read it.

The counter-sentence is: College basketball is like a workplace for millenials, generally running their "employees" at a much higher utilization rate than previous generations and with much less long-term incentive/progression.

Through that lens (and with no judgment either on my part), it is easier to see why someone like Luke has an easier decision than perhaps we (collectively) like to think.

- Chillin

[kAzE]

It's kind of interesting that the perception of the player seems to influence fans' reaction to their declaring for the draft. Luke stayed 2 years, while Jayson stay just one, but there is WAY more distress on this thread than the Jayson to the NBA thread. Just because we didn't necessarily expect Luke to go pro this year doesn't make his departure any less logical for his career. Both guys proved they are ready for the next level. I've made my peace with it. Accept it and move on. Next play!

[duke79]

Yes, I completely agree. Is it disappointing and different than the landscape we were once familiar with? Sure. But the landscape changed because of ESPN, NBA TV contracts, coach salaries, shoe deals, etc. Kids today are bigger and stronger at 19 and 20, and have already played on select teams for 10 years when they get to college.

Kennard didn't create the current system any moreso than Grant Hill created the previous one.

You can lament the changes, you can decide you aren't interested anymore, and you can find a new hobby - but it is unfair to fault Luke or anyone else for following his dream when the chance in there.

Totally agree with this sentiment! Yea, like many others on this board, I hate to see the "kids" leave early - unfortunately, there is just not a lot of season to season continuity to some of the teams (including Duke) any more and, I admit, I've lost some of my interest in college BB. But I don't blame the kids in the least for wanting to take advantage of the professional opportunities that may come their way, after one or two years of college ball. I realized several years ago that the top recruits at Duke (and other schools) are NOT coming for the academics or the social life or the beautiful campus or to get a degree. It's just a short-term stop on their way to their ultimate goal - pro basketball - and they figure that Coach K (or Calipari or Roy or Bill Self) and the Duke program is the best training for that goal. I think it does make a mockery of the concept of the "student/athlete" (at least for a very small percentage of top athletes) that the NCAA likes to tout. But it's the new reality that we have to accept, unless the NBA or the colleges band together to change the rules.

[lotusland]

Duke may have NPOYs in the future, but other than potentially Grayson in 2018, they're unlikely
to be upperclassmen, let alone seniors nearing degree completion.

$s and guaranteed contracts are too large now for anyone to resist leaving early if they project anywhere below 25th in the draft.

Conceivably Brand's jersey could be retired if he ever graduates from Duke, but thus far he's given no indication that earning a Duke degree is a goal or priority.

Yeah Luke seemed like a guy that might thread the needle putting up some big numbers, winning some national awards AND staying 3-4 years. He just got too good too fast. Good for him and best of luck.

MP2 and Nolan didn't get good enough quick enough.

Kyle and Jon were consistently very good but never great.

Amile, QC and Matt just didn't produce in a way that attracts national recognition.

Gotta believe GA was in position this year if he and Duke had the year we hoped for and he could still pull it off next year with a POY level effort and Final Four or better finish. He's sitting about where Singler was coming into his Senior year with a Championship, good numbers and some accolades (minus the controversy). A good year won't do it tho. My guess is it will take a great senior effort and a banner but how awesome would that be?!

[nmduke2001]

For real. I can't think of a single reason that's not rooted in paternalism or is some variation of "because that would satisfy my desire as a fan to have players stick around college longer."

With no disrespect intended to anyone, there is some major revisionist history going on in this thread. Early entry is of course more prominent now than it used to be, but that has nothing to do with "honor". Guys didn't leave early en masse for the NBA in the 70's and 80's because they couldn't get drafted back then. It was only an option for the very best players (and those guys DID leave early, maybe not AS early but early entry was a thing then too).

It's certainly fine to lament the effect early entry has had on the college game. I miss seeing the Johnny Dawkins of the world play for four years in college, too. But it's absurd to start making moral judgments about kids we've never met based on their career choices. Luke Kennard isn't violating some sort of blood oath by going pro - Coach K recruited him and every other kid on the team with the express knowledge that they might not stay four years. You can lament the landscape all you want, but it's horribly unfair to chastise kids for making the best decisions for them given that landscape. We can quibble or debate about what "best decision" means, but the only guy with a personal stake in that is Luke Kennard. The NBA *won't* "always be there" - that's an easily disprovable falsehood, and it's very easy for fans who have no financial stake in the decision to poo-poo the financial aspect of it.

It's awfully convenient for folks to try to attach some sort of moral component to decisions like these. We're all Duke fans here - we root for laundry, ultimately, and that's fine. But this is a career path for these kids, at least the ones like Kennard who have futures in professional basketball. They don't lack "honor" because they prioritize that career path over getting their jerseys retired.

I could not agree more. I will never fault someone for leaving school early to earn millions; whether that be for athletics or tech start-up fame. If you are ready to work and someone is willing to pay you a truckload of money, you should do it. In regards the to the NBA, the rookie salary isn't all the money they'll make. Almost everyone has some sort of shoe contract. It might not be tens or millions but even a late first round guy is going to get a couple hundred thousand. Throw in the local car dealership or two and these guys are making a great living for at least a few years. If they are anything like Gronk, they'll live off of endorsement money and save the rest.
http://www.businessinsider.com/rob-gronkowski-saves-nfl-salary-lives-off-endorsements-2015-6

[Jeffrey]

Speaking with a co-worker today, his suggestion was that there be a graduated pay scale for rookie contracts based on educational attainment. One and done with minimal credits(in other words, quit going to school in spring semester) would receive the lowest pay scale and perhaps the shortest guarantee. The longer you stayed in school, the higher the pay and potentially the longer the contract or higher the guaranteed payout each year.


The NBA is a business and it's all about the bottom line. How does a player with 30 more credit hours make the NBA more money? IIRC, the NBA's best player has 0 credit hours and he makes the NBA a lot of money!

[Jeffrey]

Nah. I think ideal would be the NBA requiring players to have a college degree to enter the draft (coupled with the NCAA making a lot of reforms to make the college system more fair).

Then, Moses Malone would have probably never been able to play in the NBA.

[NM Duke Fan]

I could not agree more. I will never fault someone for leaving school early to earn millions; whether that be for athletics or tech start-up fame. If you are ready to work and someone is willing to pay you a truckload of money, you should do it. In regards the to the NBA, the rookie salary isn't all the money they'll make. Almost everyone has some sort of shoe contract. It might not be tens or millions but even a late first round guy is going to get a couple hundred thousand. Throw in the local car dealership or two and these guys are making a great living for at least a few years. If they are anything like Gronk, they'll live off of endorsement money and save the rest.
http://www.businessinsider.com/rob-gronkowski-saves-nfl-salary-lives-off-endorsements-2015-6

Very interesting article that was, did not know this about Gronkowski. People make fun of his various antics, but they probably just draw more attention to his marketing efforts and he laughs all the way to the bank apparently. At this rate he is going to be quite wealthy when he retires, hopefully some of the Duke draftees in various sports will to some degree be as thrifty and wise while they are making the big bucks!

And I agree about making the money while you can, there certainly are some very wealthy tech entrepreneurs who got a great idea and took a temporary or permanent break in their formal educations, put the eureka moment into a marketable product, and are now leaders in their fields. For many people, the career progress in the real world is what is most important, however it can best come about.

[Sir Stealth]

Back in the day, you signed up for something, you stuck it out. It was get that degree, and then if you are good enough, the NBA. My whole argument is about honor. If you are that talented, declare before you waste some school's efforts to get you to sign on the line. The NBA is not going anywhere, your money will be there next year. But honor is lacking these days. I see it at work (Fedex Ground) more and more. It's all about the green. Drivers are leaving in unprecedented numbers, many without notice. Management is trying to cut costs, despite making more money than ever before. They refuse to add new routes, and we working Christmas style numbers at least three days a week. Online shopping is the way to go these days, and the workload is tremendous. But work a notice for crying out loud. We had 12 drivers quit in the last five days.
I know this seems like rambling on about unrelated subjects, but I don't see it like that. Like I said, honor no longer enters into thought processes anymore, and it's sad. And I know about the risk of injury factor, but this is rare. We all take risks when we leave home in the morning, don't we?
Someone mentioned hanging retired jersey numbers. If a guy does not stick it out for four years, then no way he gets his number retired.
When I saw how really good Jayson was, it broke my heart to realize he's gone after this year. Imagine if you can a team with Okafor, Jones, Tatum, Winslow, Parker on it...
Sorry, just an old school ramble folks. Things have changed, I know this, but it ain't for the better...

Sorry, I'll give you some credit for being somewhat self-aware about it, and I sympathize with your disappointment at the effects of early entry on college/Duke basketball, but this really is just a rant with little relevance to the situation at hand. Alleging that Luke's decision demonstrates a lack of honor is completely misguided, and I think that crotchety fans should be called out for comments like this, especially for something as absurd as attempting to graft dissatisfaction with your own job/industry onto a very reasonable decision in the completely unrelated sports world.

You don't get to act personally hurt because of the idea that Duke basketball is supposed to have a more personal, familial experience between the players/program/school/fans, and then call out a player's "honor" in public while acting like it's just a message board rant to get disappointment off your chest. Schools offer scholarships on a year-to-year basis. They do not compensate the players in a way that's close to proportional with the revenue those players bring to the school. They do not guarantee that they will look out for the player's interest when that player may have a very real multi-million dollar career at stake (or if they don't). The money earned turning professional early will absolutely not "be there" next year, or the year after, both because of the NBA's contract scale and because athletic careers age and decline whether you are getting paid to play or not.

Luke's decision makes complete sense based the reality of his professional field, not to mention a more enlightened understanding of the deal that players actually get playing college sports. Your feelings about his honor are just a reflection of your selfish desire to watch him play for the team you cheer for, and have nothing to do with generational shifts.

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

I know you said the bolded with no judgment. But I do hear this often, and I am technically a millenial so I felt a twinge of irritation when I read it.

The counter-sentence is: College basketball is like a workplace for millenials, generally running their "employees" at a much higher utilization rate than previous generations and with much less long-term incentive/progression.

Through that lens (and with no judgment either on my part), it is easier to see why someone like Luke has an easier decision than perhaps we (collectively) like to think.

- Chillin

Absolutely true as well. My dad worked for the same company for 30+ years and got the hold watch. That just doesn't happen anymore.

My generation wrongly thought that was a possibility, and suffered for it. Millenials have grown up cognizant of the new dynamic and flipped it to their advantage.

It isn't "right" or "wrong." It is just some sort of progression.

And yes, college basketball definitely makes WAY more money off these "kids" than they did 30 years ago, so why not have upwardly mobile players take advantage of the new dynamic?

It just isn't what it used to be.

[FadedTackyShirt]

And I agree about making the money while you can, there certainly are some very wealthy tech entrepreneurs who got a great idea and took a temporary or permanent break in their formal educations, put the eureka moment into a marketable product, and are now leaders in their fields. For many people, the career progress in the real world is what is most important, however it can best come about.

Somehow Harvard and Stanford survived and grew their endowments after Gates, the Google boys, Zuckerberg, and Steve Ballmer all dropped out.

Duke has benefited greatly from Microsoft's founding by college drop outs. Melinda Gates has two Duke degrees.

Paul Allen dropped out of Washington State, but funded computer science buildings at rival UW and Stanford.

Ballmer dropped out of Stanford b-school, but has donated 8 figures to both Harvard and Oregon (wife's alma mater). NBA collectively (players, owners, leadership) benefitted when Ballmer bought the Clippers from Donald Sterling, arguably the worst owner in American pro sports.

[golfinesquire]

Sorry, I'll give you some credit for being somewhat self-aware about it, and I sympathize with your disappointment at the effects of early entry on college/Duke basketball, but this really is just a rant with little relevance to the situation at hand. Alleging that Luke's decision demonstrates a lack of honor is completely misguided, and I think that crotchety fans should be called out for comments like this, especially for something as absurd as attempting to graft dissatisfaction with your own job/industry onto a very reasonable decision in the completely unrelated sports world.

You don't get to act personally hurt because of the idea that Duke basketball is supposed to have a more personal, familial experience between the players/program/school/fans, and then call out a player's "honor" in public while acting like it's just a message board rant to get disappointment off your chest. Schools offer scholarships on a year-to-year basis. They do not compensate the players in a way that's close to proportional with the revenue those players bring to the school. They do not guarantee that they will look out for the player's interest when that player may have a very real multi-million dollar career at stake (or if they don't). The money earned turning professional early will absolutely not "be there" next year, or the year after, both because of the NBA's contract scale and because athletic careers age and decline whether you are getting paid to play or not.

Luke's decision makes complete sense based the reality of his professional field, not to mention a more enlightened understanding of the deal that players actually get playing college sports. Your feelings about his honor are just a reflection of your selfish desire to watch him play for the team you cheer for, and have nothing to do with generational shifts.

I am so glad you responded to that quote in the way that you did. I actually found myself more upset than I should be with a message board rant at the fact that someone would call out the honor of a 20 year old who has done nothing more than work his I'm a real wanker for saying this.I'm a real wanker for saying this.I'm a real wanker for saying this. off, and represent his university with class, and who now wants to reap the reward for his own hard work. These guys have time-sensitive and injury-free-dependant skill sets. They should not be criticized for maximizing their earning power by making decisions that are in their own best interests. We should be happy for him and focus on how much fun it was to watch his game expand this year.

[ndkjr70]

Well, long time lurker (5+ years. I know most of you by your username. I'm creepy) and this made me want to create an account.

I'll give you some quick backstory; my mom and dad both went to Duke. I grew up an enormous fan, and retained that fanhood even while attending a different university (University of Miami, to pursue architecture). I'm proud to say that my first word was "Duke". I've turned a big community of my friends into Duke fans, since 2nd grade -- around 1994-- and for better or for worse (though there hasn't been many "bad" seasons in my lifetime) we've been a loyal bunch.

I loved Luke Kennard. In so many ways I loved him the way I loved JJ Redick. He'd never do anything wrong (except defense but I mean who's counting). I had my dreams set for him graduating in 4 years, retiring his jersey and hanging a banner in the next year or two up in the rafters. But he's leaving. I don't like the decision, but damn right I support him.

My issue is the outpouring of negativity. I don't see it on DBR much, but talking to my dad, my uncles, my friends. The negativity isn't towards Luke -- it's towards Coach K. "When is he going to stop recruiting these OADs? Why doesn't he build teams like he did in the early 2000s? Why does he chase all of these kids that have a foot out the door?"

I hate that. I hate it. I hate it. Luke Kennard was brought here to be a 4 year player. If he left in 3 years, it's because he exceeded expectations. Well, guess what? He played lights out this year. He dominated teams some nights, in ways that channel JJ Redick (not quite 41 against Texas, but you know what I mean). So Kennard -- is that K's fault he's leaving? Maybe, because maybe K brought this incredible skill out of him.

The staff didn't recruit Tyus and Justise thinking they'd be gone in a year. They didn't bring in Derryk, Luke, Brandon Ingram and Chase Jeter thinking they'd all be off the team in 2 years. Until we land Knox or Duval, we look thin. That's a fact. But calling it Coach K's fault bugs the hell outta me.

Anyway, thinking I might start posting rather than lurking. You guys seem pretty cool.

9F, y'all.

[sagegrouse]

Well, long time lurker (5+ years. I know most of you by your username. I'm creepy) and this made me want to create an account.

I'll give you some quick backstory; my mom and dad both went to Duke. I grew up an enormous fan, and retained that fanhood even while attending a different university (University of Miami, to pursue architecture). I'm proud to say that my first word was "Duke". I've turned a big community of my friends into Duke fans, since 2nd grade -- around 1994-- and for better or for worse (though there hasn't been many "bad" seasons in my lifetime) we've been a loyal bunch.

I loved Luke Kennard. In so many ways I loved him the way I loved JJ Redick. He'd never do anything wrong (except defense but I mean who's counting). I had my dreams set for him graduating in 4 years, retiring his jersey and hanging a banner in the next year or two up in the rafters. But he's leaving. I don't like the decision, but damn right I support him.

My issue is the outpouring of negativity. I don't see it on DBR much, but talking to my dad, my uncles, my friends. The negativity isn't towards Luke -- it's towards Coach K. "When is he going to stop recruiting these OADs? Why doesn't he build teams like he did in the early 2000s? Why does he chase all of these kids that have a foot out the door?"

I hate that. I hate it. I hate it. Luke Kennard was brought here to be a 4 year player. If he left in 3 years, it's because he exceeded expectations. Well, guess what? He played lights out this year. He dominated teams some nights, in ways that channel JJ Redick (not quite 41 against Texas, but you know what I mean). So Kennard -- is that K's fault he's leaving? Maybe, because maybe K brought this incredible skill out of him.

The staff didn't recruit Tyus and Justise thinking they'd be gone in a year. They didn't bring in Derryk, Luke, Brandon Ingram and Chase Jeter thinking they'd all be off the team in 2 years. Until we land Knox or Duval, we look thin. That's a fact. But calling it Coach K's fault bugs the hell outta me.

Anyway, thinking I might start posting rather than lurking. You guys seem pretty cool.

9F, y'all.

Welcome to DBR and the list of active posters. We're glad to have you weigh in. I agree with your points.

[Wander]

I think I must be humor-deprived, because this looks like a serious quote to me and I don't see how it could be. Why in the world should a college degree be a prerequisite for the NBA draft?

For the same reasons any business anywhere decides to require a college degree for applying to their job. You can remove the word "degree" and replace it with "play 4 years in college" if that's easier to swallow.

Obviously, my proposal isn't serious because I know it has 0% chance of happening. But it would help the NBA game by rooting out overrated players, it would help the college game by largely eliminating early entry, and it would be net-neutral to players overall. Yes, it would hurt individual players (say, if Giles never gets back to his high school self and goes undrafted). But it would help other individual players. You'd still be drafting 60 players a year, 30 players in the first round, paying salary to the same number of roster spots, etc.

[chriso]

Nooooooooooooooooooooooooo.

Best of luck Luke....

Nooooooooooooooooooooooooo.

Goodbye Luke. I am very sad to see you leave but very happy for you. Thank you for 2 great years. :(

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

For the same reasons any business anywhere decides to require a college degree for applying to their job. You can remove the word "degree" and replace it with "play 4 years in college" if that's easier to swallow.

Obviously, my proposal isn't serious because I know it has 0% chance of happening. But it would help the NBA game by rooting out overrated players, it would help the college game by largely eliminating early entry, and it would be net-neutral to players overall. Yes, it would hurt individual players (say, if Giles never gets back to his high school self and goes undrafted). But it would help other individual players. You'd still be drafting 60 players a year, 30 players in the first round, paying salary to the same number of roster spots, etc.

But it would deprive the NBA of 1, 2, 3, or 4 years of Lebron income.

No way, no how.

[brevity]

The NBA is a business and it's all about the bottom line. How does a player with 30 more credit hours make the NBA more money? IIRC, the NBA's best player has 0 credit hours and he makes the NBA a lot of money!

What do you mean? I'm pretty sure Russell Westbrook earned some credit hours in his two seasons at UCLA. (He might have won a championship there his sophomore year, if Kevin Love hadn't been so slow.)

[weezie]

If LeBron's son, LeBron Jr is as good as "they" are saying, we should petition Duke to give Sr. an honorary doctorate so Jr. could get in as a legacy?!

That's better than actual class credits, right? Less stress and all.

[ChillinDuke]

Absolutely true as well. My dad worked for the same company for 30+ years and got the hold watch. That just doesn't happen anymore.

My generation wrongly thought that was a possibility, and suffered for it. Millenials have grown up cognizant of the new dynamic and flipped it to their advantage.

It isn't "right" or "wrong." It is just some sort of progression.

And yes, college basketball definitely makes WAY more money off these "kids" than they did 30 years ago, so why not have upwardly mobile players take advantage of the new dynamic?

It just isn't what it used to be.

The bolded is exactly right. And for better or worse, it sums up how I choose to view the state of things.

College basketball is my favorite sport. It has a lot of current, let's say, growing pains and/or issues that were, let's say, understated in previous years and generations. You have to take the good with the bad. Kids like Kennard leave now much sooner than I'd prefer. But that's the price I have to pay for my deep, deep enjoyment of the sport ~5 months out of the year (and thanks to DBR, 12 months).

- Chillin

[Ichabod Drain]

For the same reasons any business anywhere decides to require a college degree for applying to their job. You can remove the word "degree" and replace it with "play 4 years in college" if that's easier to swallow.

Obviously, my proposal isn't serious because I know it has 0% chance of happening. But it would help the NBA game by rooting out overrated players, it would help the college game by largely eliminating early entry, and it would be net-neutral to players overall. Yes, it would hurt individual players (say, if Giles never gets back to his high school self and goes undrafted). But it would help other individual players. You'd still be drafting 60 players a year, 30 players in the first round, paying salary to the same number of roster spots, etc.

There's a significant difference in the age of which you are at your peak earning potential between NBA players and the people in those jobs that require a degree.

[English]

For the same reasons any business anywhere decides to require a college degree for applying to their job. You can remove the word "degree" and replace it with "play 4 years in college" if that's easier to swallow.

Obviously, my proposal isn't serious because I know it has 0% chance of happening. But it would help the NBA game by rooting out overrated players, it would help the college game by largely eliminating early entry, and it would be net-neutral to players overall. Yes, it would hurt individual players (say, if Giles never gets back to his high school self and goes undrafted). But it would help other individual players. You'd still be drafting 60 players a year, 30 players in the first round, paying salary to the same number of roster spots, etc.

Because college has anything to do with anything in the NBA? None of your proposal is easier to swallow because you're just arbitrarily manufacturing requirements to entry into the NBA. Does four years in college somehow make Frank Kaminsky a better product than Karl-Anthony Towns or Anthony Davis? Does Buddy Hield provide the NBA with a better product than Kyrie Irving because he spent four years in Norman? No.

It's clear to me that selfish interests in maximizing college basketball are clouding the judgment of many around here, and from that, there's a lot of projecting about what will and will not supposedly help the NBA and the players themselves. It laughable to say that a 4-year requirement would be a net-neutral on the players; that's preposterous.

[75Crazie]

For the same reasons any business anywhere decides to require a college degree for applying to their job. You can remove the word "degree" and replace it with "play 4 years in college" if that's easier to swallow.
I can definitely refute your claim that "any business anywhere" requires a college degree for application. There are many, many occupations where a college degree is not required ... in fact, for some of those occupations, a college degree is a detriment (it makes one "over-qualified"). Those jobs that do require a college degree are generally the more white-collar types of jobs that require some combination of specific knowledge and thinking skills that colleges are intended to hone. I cannot think of one good reason why a professional basketball player needs the kinds of skills that are honed in college. They do need skills oriented around the nature of the game itself ... but those can be acquired any number of ways outside of a college classroom. They also need money management skills, but again those should be available in a number of places.

I will grant you that most basketball players coming out of high school need some path for the advancement of their basketball skills before they are ready to play in the NBA. I completely reject the notion that this path has to be college.

[Atlanta Duke]

Somehow Harvard and Stanford survived and grew their endowments after Gates, the Google boys, Zuckerberg, and Steve Ballmer all dropped out.

But Harvard has maintained its standards by not hanging banners for Gates and Zuckerberg until they return and obtain enough credits to graduate

[Wander]

Because college has anything to do with anything in the NBA? None of your proposal is easier to swallow because you're just arbitrarily manufacturing requirements to entry into the NBA. Does four years in college somehow make Frank Kaminsky a better product than Karl-Anthony Towns or Anthony Davis? Does Buddy Hield provide the NBA with a better product than Kyrie Irving because he spent four years in Norman? No.

It's clear to me that selfish interests in maximizing college basketball are clouding the judgment of many around here, and from that, there's a lot of projecting about what will and will not supposedly help the NBA and the players themselves. It laughable to say that a 4-year requirement would be a net-neutral on the players; that's preposterous.

You're missing the argument. I'm not saying that the NBA product would be better because 4 years in college can help Frank Kaminsky be better than Anthony Davis. The point is that 4 years in college would allow the NBA to evaluate players better, lessening the chance that a team would waste a high pick on Marvin Williams or Greg Oden. There would still be busts and surprises, of course, but overall the NBA product would be better. After all, that's why the NBA wanted the OAD rule in the first place. And the college product would obviously be better.

You are right that it would absolutely not be better for the type of players you mention (which is why it will never, ever happen). But it would be better for other players. So yes, I would like to see it as a basketball fan, because I think it would make the NBA product better, the college product better, and not hurt the players overall (on average, it would hurt star players and help lower level players).

[Edouble]

You're missing the argument. I'm not saying that the NBA product would be better because 4 years in college can help Frank Kaminsky be better than Anthony Davis. The point is that 4 years in college would allow the NBA to evaluate players better, lessening the chance that a team would waste a high pick on Marvin Williams or Greg Oden. There would still be busts and surprises, of course, but overall the NBA product would be better. After all, that's why the NBA wanted the OAD rule in the first place. And the college product would obviously be better.

You are right that it would absolutely not be better for the type of players you mention (which is why it will never, ever happen). But it would be better for other players. So yes, I would like to see it as a basketball fan, because I think it would make the NBA product better, the college product better, and not hurt the players overall (on average, it would hurt star players and help lower level players).

I think this is a really weak argument.

As a Hawks fan, I still lament that we took Marvin Williams ahead of Chris Paul.

If we were stupid enough to do that, after watching Chris Paul play two years of lights-out basketball in college, where he took Wake Forest to a #1 national ranking, then maybe the further educational requirements should be for the employees of some of the NBA front offices, not the basketball players.

[FadedTackyShirt]

But Harvard has maintained its standards by not hanging banners for Gates and Zuckerberg until they return and obtain enough credits to graduate

Well played, Tommy runs a tight ship.

Wasn't the original banner thing about the 1990 F4 and Phil Henderson?

Are there F4 banners for 1999 (Brand, Avery, Maggette) and 2004 (Deng and Shav)?

Did Boozer graduate (2001)?

[Edouble]

Well played, Tommy runs a tight ship.

Wasn't the original banner thing about the 1990 F4 and Phil Henderson?

Are there F4 banners for 1999 (Brand, Avery, Maggette) and 2004 (Deng and Shav)?

Did Boozer graduate (2001)?

It was Alaa Abdelnaby not Phil Henderson.

All of the Final Four Banners are up.

Not sure about Carlos.

[Olympic Fan]

Well played, Tommy runs a tight ship.

Wasn't the original banner thing about the 1990 F4 and Phil Henderson?

Are there F4 banners for 1999 (Brand, Avery, Maggette) and 2004 (Deng and Shav)?

Did Boozer graduate (2001)?

It was the 1990 banner that K originally refused to hang -- and it was because none of the three seniors on that team graduated on time. He told them that he wouldn't hang it until all three graduated.

Abdelnaby finished up in the summer session. Brickey (I think) was another semester. Phil Henderson took several years, but eventually got his degree and the banner went up (around 1998 or 1999, I think).

K has never withheld banners from teams because of players turning pro early. His big complaint was with seniors who didn't do the work.

[nmduke2001]

You're missing the argument. I'm not saying that the NBA product would be better because 4 years in college can help Frank Kaminsky be better than Anthony Davis. The point is that 4 years in college would allow the NBA to evaluate players better, lessening the chance that a team would waste a high pick on Marvin Williams or Greg Oden. There would still be busts and surprises, of course, but overall the NBA product would be better. After all, that's why the NBA wanted the OAD rule in the first place. And the college product would obviously be better.

You are right that it would absolutely not be better for the type of players you mention (which is why it will never, ever happen). But it would be better for other players. So yes, I would like to see it as a basketball fan, because I think it would make the NBA product better, the college product better, and not hurt the players overall (on average, it would hurt star players and help lower level players).

http://www.chronicle.com/article/Graduation-Rates-of-Football/135400

74% of D1 basketball players graduate in 6 years. The vast majority of the kids good enough to go pro know long before they are seniors. Those kids should go early and not waste valuable years playing for well below their market value.

[Wander]

If we were stupid enough to do that, after watching Chris Paul play two years of lights-out basketball in college, where he took Wake Forest to a #1 national ranking, then maybe the further educational requirements should be for the employees of some of the NBA front offices, not the basketball players.

You're speaking with hindsight. At the time, Chris Paul wasn't really in serious contention to be the #1 pick - the discussion was almost entirely centered on Andrew Bogut vs Marvin Williams. Even after those two, there was debate as to which point guard should go first between Chris Paul and Deron Williams.

[Wander]

http://www.chronicle.com/article/Graduation-Rates-of-Football/135400

74% of D1 basketball players graduate in 6 years. The vast majority of the kids good enough to go pro know long before they are seniors. Those kids should go early and not waste valuable years playing for well below their market value.

I completely agree with this. I think some of you guys are misinterpreting my position: I think Kennard, Giles, and Tatum all made the right choice under the current system and hold no hard feelings about them. I just think both the NBA and college basketball would be improved with a different system that involved players staying longer.

[Lauderdevil]

Well, long time lurker (5+ years. I know most of you by your username. I'm creepy) and this made me want to create an account.

I'll give you some quick backstory; my mom and dad both went to Duke. I grew up an enormous fan, and retained that fanhood even while attending a different university (University of Miami, to pursue architecture). I'm proud to say that my first word was "Duke". I've turned a big community of my friends into Duke fans, since 2nd grade -- around 1994-- and for better or for worse (though there hasn't been many "bad" seasons in my lifetime) we've been a loyal bunch.

I loved Luke Kennard. In so many ways I loved him the way I loved JJ Redick. He'd never do anything wrong (except defense but I mean who's counting). I had my dreams set for him graduating in 4 years, retiring his jersey and hanging a banner in the next year or two up in the rafters. But he's leaving. I don't like the decision, but damn right I support him.

My issue is the outpouring of negativity. I don't see it on DBR much, but talking to my dad, my uncles, my friends. The negativity isn't towards Luke -- it's towards Coach K. "When is he going to stop recruiting these OADs? Why doesn't he build teams like he did in the early 2000s? Why does he chase all of these kids that have a foot out the door?"

I hate that. I hate it. I hate it. Luke Kennard was brought here to be a 4 year player. If he left in 3 years, it's because he exceeded expectations. Well, guess what? He played lights out this year. He dominated teams some nights, in ways that channel JJ Redick (not quite 41 against Texas, but you know what I mean). So Kennard -- is that K's fault he's leaving? Maybe, because maybe K brought this incredible skill out of him.

The staff didn't recruit Tyus and Justise thinking they'd be gone in a year. They didn't bring in Derryk, Luke, Brandon Ingram and Chase Jeter thinking they'd all be off the team in 2 years. Until we land Knox or Duval, we look thin. That's a fact. But calling it Coach K's fault bugs the hell outta me.

Anyway, thinking I might start posting rather than lurking. You guys seem pretty cool.

9F, y'all.

I think you nailed it on your first post. Luke didn't come here as a one and done. He just came here and killed it, and now he has an opportunity to be a first-rounder. Good for him, and good for Duke that he outperformed to such an extent. As far as I'm concerned, he's done everything right. I've loved him as a Duke guy and I'll root for him in the NBA.

Wish you stayed, Luke -- we'd love to have seen what you could do in your junior year -- but good luck at the next level!

[nmduke2001]

I completely agree with this. I think some of you guys are misinterpreting my position: I think Kennard, Giles, and Tatum all made the right choice under the current system and hold no hard feelings about them. I just think both the NBA and college basketball would be improved with a different system that involved players staying longer.

The NBA and NCAA would probably be better but the young men doing most of the work would not be (in most cases).

[FadedTackyShirt]

Find it hard to believe college stakeholders want a system that effectively forces pros in waiting to pretend to be students for a semester or two quarters.

Quarrel is really between NBA owners and the players' union. Owners want to maximize operating revenue and franchise value while minimizing costs; union wants higher salaries, more guarantees, and more player mobility. Improving college fans' enjoyment doesn't matter to either side.

[Devilwin]

Sorry, I'll give you some credit for being somewhat self-aware about it, and I sympathize with your disappointment at the effects of early entry on college/Duke basketball, but this really is just a rant with little relevance to the situation at hand. Alleging that Luke's decision demonstrates a lack of honor is completely misguided, and I think that crotchety fans should be called out for comments like this, especially for something as absurd as attempting to graft dissatisfaction with your own job/industry onto a very reasonable decision in the completely unrelated sports world.

You don't get to act personally hurt because of the idea that Duke basketball is supposed to have a more personal, familial experience between the players/program/school/fans, and then call out a player's "honor" in public while acting like it's just a message board rant to get disappointment off your chest. Schools offer scholarships on a year-to-year basis. They do not compensate the players in a way that's close to proportional with the revenue those players bring to the school. They do not guarantee that they will look out for the player's interest when that player may have a very real multi-million dollar career at stake (or if they don't). The money earned turning professional early will absolutely not "be there" next year, or the year after, both because of the NBA's contract scale and because athletic careers age and decline whether you are getting paid to play or not.

Luke's decision makes complete sense based the reality of his professional field, not to mention a more enlightened understanding of the deal that players actually get playing college sports. Your feelings about his honor are just a reflection of your selfish desire to watch him play for the team you cheer for, and have nothing to do with generational shifts.

I didn't mean to attack Luke personally. I mean every one one of them. Thanks though for giving me some credit. And while everyone is gushing about our future NBA stars, remember this makes seven players gone so far, including Matt and Amile. And I would advise you not to be calling people selfish you do not know. I may be the most generous man on earth for all you know..

[75Crazie]

Find it hard to believe college stakeholders want a system that effectively forces pros in waiting to pretend to be students for a semester or two quarters.
Unfortunately, I do not find it hard at all to believe this, given the current climate of major "college" sports (football and basketball). Most fans are exceptionally capable of overlooking all of the flaws in the nature of their "student-athletes" as long as their teams perform on the gridiron or court.

[DukeandMdFan]

Unfortunately, I do not find it hard at all to believe this, given the current climate of major "college" sports (football and basketball). Most fans are exceptionally capable of overlooking all of the flaws in the nature of their "student-athletes" as long as their teams perform on the gridiron or court.

Agreed, but we are still capable of recognizing the flaws in the nature of "student-athletes" at other programs.

[DukeandMdFan]

Well, long time lurker (5+ years. I know most of you by your username. I'm creepy) and this made me want to create an account.

I'll give you some quick backstory; my mom and dad both went to Duke. I grew up an enormous fan, and retained that fanhood even while attending a different university (University of Miami, to pursue architecture). I'm proud to say that my first word was "Duke". I've turned a big community of my friends into Duke fans, since 2nd grade -- around 1994-- and for better or for worse (though there hasn't been many "bad" seasons in my lifetime) we've been a loyal bunch.

I loved Luke Kennard. In so many ways I loved him the way I loved JJ Redick. He'd never do anything wrong (except defense but I mean who's counting). I had my dreams set for him graduating in 4 years, retiring his jersey and hanging a banner in the next year or two up in the rafters. But he's leaving. I don't like the decision, but damn right I support him.

My issue is the outpouring of negativity. I don't see it on DBR much, but talking to my dad, my uncles, my friends. The negativity isn't towards Luke -- it's towards Coach K. "When is he going to stop recruiting these OADs? Why doesn't he build teams like he did in the early 2000s? Why does he chase all of these kids that have a foot out the door?"

I hate that. I hate it. I hate it. Luke Kennard was brought here to be a 4 year player. If he left in 3 years, it's because he exceeded expectations. Well, guess what? He played lights out this year. He dominated teams some nights, in ways that channel JJ Redick (not quite 41 against Texas, but you know what I mean). So Kennard -- is that K's fault he's leaving? Maybe, because maybe K brought this incredible skill out of him.

The staff didn't recruit Tyus and Justise thinking they'd be gone in a year. They didn't bring in Derryk, Luke, Brandon Ingram and Chase Jeter thinking they'd all be off the team in 2 years. Until we land Knox or Duval, we look thin. That's a fact. But calling it Coach K's fault bugs the hell outta me.

Anyway, thinking I might start posting rather than lurking. You guys seem pretty cool.

9F, y'all.

Welcome, I can sympathize with going to a college you didn't grow up rooting for and I think you make some good points.

Kennard was named the HS Parade National Player of the Year. I think Coach K knew that Luke leaving early for the NBA was a realistic possibility and the topic was likely discussed during the recruitment process.

Coach K could recruit players with less potential who would be more likely to stay at Duke for four years. Clearly, Coach K has decided to not take this approach.

[gep]

I completely agree with this. I think some of you guys are misinterpreting my position: I think Kennard, Giles, and Tatum all made the right choice under the current system and hold no hard feelings about them. I just think both the NBA and college basketball would be improved with a different system that involved players staying longer.

One thing I thought of that I don't think was mentioned. When a college player hires an agent, he cannot go back to school. Why is this? Maybe this should be changed to: cannot go back to school if signed a contract to be on a professional roster, whether playing or not. Seems this would benefit the large number of college players who declare for the draft, hire and agent, but don't get drafted or sign a pro contract. Maybe they should be allowed back to school. Then this will be a NCAA issue and not NBA/union issue. Would this work?

[Jeffrey]

I just think both the NBA and college basketball would be improved with a different system that involved players staying longer.

IMO, you're not improving the NBA by decreasing the number of years Lebron plays in the NBA.

[Jeffrey]

When a college player hires an agent, he cannot go back to school. Why is this?

The college player may leave the agent's office in a brand new Ferrari.

[DukeandMdFan]

One thing I thought of that I don't think was mentioned. When a college player hires an agent, he cannot go back to school. Why is this? Maybe this should be changed to: cannot go back to school if signed a contract to be on a professional roster, whether playing or not. Seems this would benefit the large number of college players who declare for the draft, hire and agent, but don't get drafted or sign a pro contract. Maybe they should be allowed back to school. Then this will be a NCAA issue and not NBA/union issue. Would this work?

I think this is already an NCAA issue as the NCAA declares who is ineligible.


The college player may leave the agent's office in a brand new Ferrari.

But, aside from possibly opening up Pandora's Box, what is the harm of this? Agents can assume this risk when they sign a college student.

[MarkD83]

I think this is already an NCAA issue as the NCAA declares who is ineligible.



But, aside from possibly opening up Pandora's Box, what is the harm of this? Agents can assume this risk when they sign a college student.

Here at "University of (fill in the blank)" we have a great support staff (read agents). If you come to our school they will help guide you in your career path (get to the NBA) and while you are here you can live at this great dorm (read agent's house) and have access to all of the amenities.

Should I go to "University of (fill in the blank)" or some smaller school that does not have such a great support staff.....

There in lies the danger.

[Indoor66]

IMO, you're not improving the NBA by decreasing the number of years Lebron plays in the NBA.

But there are FEW players of that quality who mature so young.

[westwall]

Quarrel is really between NBA owners and the players' union. Improving college fans' enjoyment doesn't matter to either side.


Unfortunately, but understandably, VERY true.

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

But there are FEW players of that quality who mature so young.

Few sure. But how many millions of dollars are the random Lebron's extra NBA years worth?

[YmoBeThere]

IIRC, the NBA's best player has 0 credit hours

Actually, Kareem graduated after his time at UCLA.

[gep]

I think this is already an NCAA issue as the NCAA declares who is ineligible.



But, aside from possibly opening up Pandora's Box, what is the harm of this? Agents can assume this risk when they sign a college student.


Here at "University of (fill in the blank)" we have a great support staff (read agents). If you come to our school they will help guide you in your career path (get to the NBA) and while you are here you can live at this great dorm (read agent's house) and have access to all of the amenities.

Should I go to "University of (fill in the blank)" or some smaller school that does not have such a great support staff...

There in lies the danger.

OK... so another twist. Declare for the draft, sign with an agent, test the waters, enter the draft, go undrafted. If decide to go back to school, contract with agent is voided. If a player does that enough times, agents will be gun-shy in taking in that player next year until there's a bonafide chance the player gets drafted. Prevents the "hype" that goes on now. Maybe player even gets black-balled... that he brought it upon himself (or parents, extended family, etc).

Also, keep agents out of the school in any way... housing, cars, etc is a *must*.

This helps?

[Indoor66]

Actually, Kareem graduated after his time at UCLA.

And Wilt spent 1 year at Kansas.

[YmoBeThere]

And Wilt spent 1 year at Kansas.

Interesting, I thought he spent two years there. But because of the rules around freshman eligibility, only one of those seasons was on the "varsity" squad.

Bill Russell spent all 4 years at USF and graduated. Now, would all 3 of these guys be one and dones in this era, certainly. They would likely have been none and dones if possible.

[sagegrouse]

Interesting, I thought he spent two years there. But because of the rules around freshman eligibility, only one of those seasons was on the "varsity" squad.

Bill Russell spent all 4 years at USF and graduated. Now, would all 3 of these guys be one and dones in this era, certainly. They would likely have been none and dones if possible.

Wilt spent three years at Kansas. His two varsity seasons he went for 29.6/18.9 and 30.1/17.5. He got a lot of grief for leaving to play for the Globetrotters in what would have been his senior year.

[Saratoga2]

OK... so another twist. Declare for the draft, sign with an agent, test the waters, enter the draft, go undrafted. If decide to go back to school, contract with agent is voided. If a player does that enough times, agents will be gun-shy in taking in that player next year until there's a bonafide chance the player gets drafted. Prevents the "hype" that goes on now. Maybe player even gets black-balled... that he brought it upon himself (or parents, extended family, etc).

Also, keep agents out of the school in any way... housing, cars, etc is a *must*.

This helps?

I would think the college coaches need to know who will be back fairly early so they can recruit accordingly. Adding a lot of time in the process to allow players to decide whether a contract they sign or don't sign might mean months added of uncertainty. I believe that is a drawback of a proposal to allow the kids to return after not getting a contract that they can sign.

[rsvman]

...

That's better than actual class credits, right? Less stress and all.
Well, if somebody wants to avoid actual class credits, I know of an option.........;)

[DukeandMdFan]

I would think the college coaches need to know who will be back fairly early so they can recruit accordingly. Adding a lot of time in the process to allow players to decide whether a contract they sign or don't sign might mean months added of uncertainty. I believe that is a drawback of a proposal to allow the kids to return after not getting a contract that they can sign.

I agree with you. I think the rule about signing with an agent is in place for this purpose.

I believe this is done to help the college coaches, not help the players.

Because these players testing the waters could put the agents and coaches in a bind, these types of players become less desirable for the agents and coaches and are recruited accordingly. Laissez-faire.

[gep]

I would think the college coaches need to know who will be back fairly early so they can recruit accordingly. Adding a lot of time in the process to allow players to decide whether a contract they sign or don't sign might mean months added of uncertainty. I believe that is a drawback of a proposal to allow the kids to return after not getting a contract that they can sign.

Yes, I agree with you. I forgot to consider that. Guess I was thinking of the player and not the coach/team.

[hsheffield]

Can't even take an afternoon nap without waking to someone else leaving. That's it. No more naps.

Good Luck Luke..I hope it works out well for you.

Forgive me: I've been jet lagged on the west coast this week and I'm cranky.

I'm annoyed at Luke's leaving. I don't blame him, but I'm TIRED of having players for only 1-2 years. I'm pining for players that we get to watch develop over 4 years.

I appreciate that the reality is that it's better for the players to go when the going is good, but it's starting to feel like the model now in place is a farce. Many players aren't really going to college, they're going into a farm system for the NBA. I'm tired of pretending it's anything else. Bilas is right: they should start paying the college players. The noble college student as an amateur player is an illusion.

BTW, if you need additional proof, look at UNC's two decade long educational joke. Their players were there to play basketball: it's pretty clear that they didn't get a college education.

OK, rant over.

[YmoBeThere]

Forgive me: I've been jet lagged on the west coast this week and I'm cranky.

I'm annoyed at Luke's leaving. I don't blame him, but I'm TIRED of having players for only 1-2 years. I'm pining for players that we get to watch develop over 4 years.

I appreciate that the reality is that it's better for the players to go when the going is good, but it's starting to feel like the model now in place is a farce. Many players aren't really going to college, they're going into a farm system for the NBA. I'm tired of pretending it's anything else. Bilas is right: they should start paying the college players. The noble college student as an amateur player is an illusion.

BTW, if you need additional proof, look at UNC's two decade long educational joke. Their players were there to play basketball: it's pretty clear that they didn't get a college education.

OK, rant over.

If you average Amile and he together...

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

If you average Amile and he together...

You get two 3.5 year players?

[YmoBeThere]

You get two 3.5 year players?

Which rounds to?

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

Which rounds to?

Beats me, my math teacher went to UNC. 11?

[duke74]

Which rounds to?

From one of the CPAs on this board, and to paraphrase a very old joke's punchline, "whatever you want it to be." :)

[wsb3]

In the era of OAD..I can't recall the last time a player said.."I love college. Why would I leave..this is the best time of my life..something to the effect of what Grant Hill said long ago.. There were others...Duncan, even Hanstravel I believe was a mock 1st round pick every year.

Once in a while someone may stay to work on their game..to up their draft stock. Didn't Marcus Smart decide this when he was a freshman but alas no one stays for love of college..the life..the game...

It is like they have to leave & we have bought into this...It bothers me that a player has to leave because his stock may drop..that shows a lack of confidence to me...I know there is the potential injury issue but that is pretty rare & right now I can't recall a case where a projected top pick in the draft had a career ending injury..If I am wrong I am about to be corrected quickly on this knowledgeable board..:)

I really wish we had a rule like baseball.. I would rather they go straight to the NBA if they want too out of high school but once they sign 3 years..or even 2 years.. Something to give some stability to my beloved sport..college basketball...though while I love Duke Basketball as much as ever my love for college basketball has decreased with OAD...Conference expansion.. But the NBA does not give a rat's behind about college basketball or me for that matter..:)

I think most of us saw Luke as a four year player. Wasn't there discussions about his struggling to be in the rotation last summer? But he worked hard..had a breakout year & so he has to leave in this day & age..:(

As stated before by a poster..just my .02 cents

[dukelifer]

In the era of OAD..I can't recall the last time a player said.."I love college. Why would I leave..this is the best time of my life..something to the effect of what Grant Hill said long ago.. There were others...Duncan, even Hanstravel I believe was a mock 1st round pick every year.

Once in a while someone may stay to work on their game..to up their draft stock. Didn't Marcus Smart decide this when he was a freshman but alas no one stays for love of college..the life..the game...

It is like they have to leave & we have bought into this...It bothers me that a player has to leave because his stock may drop..that shows a lack of confidence to me...I know there is the potential injury issue but that is pretty rare & right now I can't recall a case where a projected top pick in the draft had a career ending injury..If I am wrong I am about to be corrected quickly on this knowledgeable board..:)

I really wish we had a rule like baseball.. I would rather they go straight to the NBA if they want too out of high school but once they sign 3 years..or even 2 years.. Something to give some stability to my beloved sport..college basketball...though while I love Duke Basketball as much as ever my love for college basketball has decreased with OAD...Conference expansion.. But the NBA does not give a rat's behind about college basketball or me for that matter..:)

I think most of us saw Luke as a four year player. Wasn't there discussions about his struggling to be in the rotation last summer? But he worked hard..had a breakout year & so he has to leave in this day & age..:(

As stated before by a poster..just my .02 cents

A lot has changed in college sports. For the athletes, basketball is an all consuming activity- the travel, the practice, the training. It is hard to believe that the other part of college gets the same level of attention that it gets from the typical student. Kennard got to experience college life fully- but it is not for everyone. He is on a different life track than almost every other kid his age. At some point you are ready to move on and get to the next stage. When I was in college I was driven to do well in the classroom- and did not fully engage in the undergraduate college experience. It was a choice. I much more enjoyed being a graduate student which was possible because of that choice. I can empathize with a kid who wants to move on after two years. The NBA is not an easy life - but the financial pull is extraordinary. The cash is potentially life transforming. Kennard can also finish college for the degree at some point if his next job requires it- like being a college coach. Kennard is a hot property and he is ready to evolve his game. The odds are against most to have long careers - but he certainly has a chance to be successful given a unique skillset.

[dukefan_828]

So am i the only one whose a little salty at our beloved luke "swoops" kennard, for dashing to the bank?? I know it's selfish of me but i just loved watching him get buckets in duke blue. He had a chance to break many a records and become a all time great in durham. I'm going to always think of what could have been, plus i just always feel slighted when a player jumps ship early after a disappointing NCAA tournament run. Like i said i know it's selfish of me, and hopefully in due time the pain will heal. Just imagine luke w a true pg and a healthy allen. oh man oh man.. if we land duval i still like our chances, and really there would have been a log jam. I said we only needed one of the two so i've been praying Grayson A doesn't let the haters run him off and come's back healthy to solidify himself as a first round pick and add a little more bling bling to the collection?!

[flyingdutchdevil]

So am i the only one whose a little salty at our beloved luke "swoops" kennard, for dashing to the bank?? I know it's selfish of me but i just loved watching him get buckets in duke blue. He had a chance to break many a records and become a all time great in durham. I'm going to always think of what could have been, plus i just always feel slighted when a player jumps ship early after a disappointing NCAA tournament run. Like i said i know it's selfish of me, and hopefully in due time the pain will heal. Just imagine luke w a true pg and a healthy allen. oh man oh man.. if we land duval i still like our chances, and really there would have been a log jam. I said we only needed one of the two so i've been praying Grayson A doesn't let the haters run him off and come's back healthy to solidify himself as a first round pick and add a little more bling bling to the collection?!

Hey, at least you admit it's selfish!

Most of us on this board are happy for Luke, but we're also a little sad that he left. Of course we want every player to stay 4 years, but it's just not a likely scenario given the landscape of college ball these days.

Most of us understand that money is a key driver (and the hypocrisy that some posters have when they'd be the likely to say yes to a raise) and that playing careers are short, so take advantage!

Most of us understand that the NBA is much more attractive and a bigger goal than college ball to blue chip players.

Most of us understand that Duke players in the NBA is a good thing for the Duke brand and Duke recruiting.

And most of us understand that these kids likely still love Duke and Duke will hopefully always be there is some capacity. Kennard most certainly has the coaching staff's blessing and the AD's blessing.

[sagegrouse]

I agree with you. I think the rule about signing with an agent is in place for this purpose.

I believe this is done to help the college coaches, not help the players.

Because these players testing the waters could put the agents and coaches in a bind, these types of players become less desirable for the agents and coaches and are recruited accordingly. Laissez-faire.

I think it is for more practical reasons than this. Once a player signs with an agent, all sorts of financial transactions become both legal and common -- gifts and loans to players and their families plus emoluments and trips. You can't unravel these gifts and loans and restore an athlete to eligibility. Therefore, there needs to be a bright line concerning agents.

Also, IIRC, there are state laws, including NC, against sports agents making gifts to college athletes. This is another reason for a player to declare he is no longer a college athlete before signing with an agent.

Can agents and others give informal advice to a player's family about draft status and other matters without a signed contract -- sure? Also, without knowing the details, Duke and other programs also contact NBA teams and insiders and provide that information as counseling to the players.

[FadedTackyShirt]

Hey, at least you admit it's selfish!

...Kennard most certainly has the coaching staff's blessing and the AD's blessing.

The NBA, not Duke, the ACC, or the NCAA, sets the rules on draft eligibility.

Posters unhappy with K's, the AD's, and the University's stance on recruiting OADs or advising and blessing early entrants surely can find another school to root for among ~300 schools that never produce early draft entrants.

Personally can't stand NBA's draft rules, but Duke's not changing its approach until the NBA changes its draft parameters. Capel, Collins, or whomever follows K aren't going to avoid recruiting potential early entrants.

[johnb]

From my perspective, Kennard based his decision on self interest, but I'd like to think that we all base our decisions on self interest. Even those who are in helping professions--like myself--should have based our career decisions on self interest. But was it selfish? I'd say no, since the most crucial aspect of the definition of "selfish" is lacking consideration for others. We have no evidence of that in him or in any of our recent OAD's.

I also don't question K's decision to recruit top 10 talent; these guys get dozens of offers--who is going to turn down any of our recruits?

As long as we can keep bringing in stars, we'll be competitive every year. From a coach's perspective, I can imagine it's fun to work with future NBA All Stars, though it's also probably frustrating for some defensively minded coaches to have to watch some pretty mediocre defense by offensively-minded stars who aren't around enough to become automatic with our style of defense. And to watch them leave while they are far from their peak. Nevertheless, as long as we can recruit at this level, we will.

I am personally less interested in recent Duke teams, partly because I do have the same view as others have mentioned: it feels like Duke has become a collegiate D league, where players come to audition for the NBA. As soon as anyone is guaranteed a top 25 pick, they leave. Intellectually, that's fine. From the perspective of a fan(atic), I'm mildly disillusioned.

But, as I like to tell myself about a broad range of personal and political issues, "if you're disillusioned, you were illusioned in the first place."

[BandAlum83]

Back in the day, you signed up for something, you stuck it out. It was get that degree, and then if you are good enough, the NBA. My whole argument is about honor. If you are that talented, declare before you waste some school's efforts to get you to sign on the line. The NBA is not going anywhere, your money will be there next year. But honor is lacking these days. I see it at work (Fedex Ground) more and more. It's all about the green. Drivers are leaving in unprecedented numbers, many without notice. Management is trying to cut costs, despite making more money than ever before. They refuse to add new routes, and we working Christmas style numbers at least three days a week. Online shopping is the way to go these days, and the workload is tremendous. But work a notice for crying out loud. We had 12 drivers quit in the last five days.
I know this seems like rambling on about unrelated subjects, but I don't see it like that. Like I said, honor no longer enters into thought processes anymore, and it's sad. And I know about the risk of injury factor, but this is rare. We all take risks when we leave home in the morning, don't we?
Someone mentioned hanging retired jersey numbers. If a guy does not stick it out for four years, then no way he gets his number retired.
When I saw how really good Jayson was, it broke my heart to realize he's gone after this year. Imagine if you can a team with Okafor, Jones, Tatum, Winslow, Parker on it...
Sorry, just an old school ramble folks. Things have changed, I know this, but it ain't for the better...

You're kidding, right?

Honor means committing to work for a company (any company) even as they pay you below market, look to minimize benefits, engage in union suppression tactics, commit wage theft, fire folks as they get older and start to make higher wages.

Yeah, that's honor.

I'm not saying that is FedEx, I'm saying capitalizing is a 2 way street. Maximizing profits doesn't guarantee loyalty from either worker or employer.

[Jeffrey]

I think it is for more practical reasons than this. Once a player signs with an agent, all sorts of financial transactions become both legal and common -- gifts and loans to players and their families plus emoluments and trips. You can't unravel these gifts and loans and restore an athlete to eligibility. Therefore, there needs to be a bright line concerning agents.


Strongly agree. When the agent enters the game, it's money time.

[devilsadvocate85]

In the bold section below, you are ignoring the one and really almost universal truth of the system the way the NBA and the NBA player's association have it set up right now. If a player can get a guaranteed contract by leaving school early, they would be foolish to stay in school (any school), unless their family is so wealthy that millions of dollars don't matter. I won't bore you with the math, but the lost $ by staying + the delay in reaching eligibility for the first free agent contract cannot be made up by improving a player's draft stock. I don't know how we'd ever confirm, but the next time a player is an "iron clad" top 20 pick and decides to stay in school, I'd like to know why. To my knowledge it hasn't happened.


In the era of OAD..I can't recall the last time a player said.."I love college. Why would I leave..this is the best time of my life..something to the effect of what Grant Hill said long ago.. There were others...Duncan, even Hanstravel I believe was a mock 1st round pick every year.

Once in a while someone may stay to work on their game..to up their draft stock. Didn't Marcus Smart decide this when he was a freshman but alas no one stays for love of college..the life..the game...

It is like they have to leave & we have bought into this...It bothers me that a player has to leave because his stock may drop..that shows a lack of confidence to me...I know there is the potential injury issue but that is pretty rare & right now I can't recall a case where a projected top pick in the draft had a career ending injury..If I am wrong I am about to be corrected quickly on this knowledgeable board..:)

I really wish we had a rule like baseball.. I would rather they go straight to the NBA if they want too out of high school but once they sign 3 years..or even 2 years.. Something to give some stability to my beloved sport..college basketball...though while I love Duke Basketball as much as ever my love for college basketball has decreased with OAD...Conference expansion.. But the NBA does not give a rat's behind about college basketball or me for that matter..:)

I think most of us saw Luke as a four year player. Wasn't there discussions about his struggling to be in the rotation last summer? But he worked hard..had a breakout year & so he has to leave in this day & age..:(

As stated before by a poster..just my .02 cents

[MChambers]

In the bold section below, you are ignoring the one and really almost universal truth of the system the way the NBA and the NBA player's association have it set up right now. If a player can get a guaranteed contract by leaving school early, they would be foolish to stay in school (any school), unless their family is so wealthy that millions of dollars don't matter. I won't bore you with the math, but the lost $ by staying + the delay in reaching eligibility for the first free agent contract cannot be made up by improving a player's draft stock. I don't know how we'd ever confirm, but the next time a player is an "iron clad" top 20 pick and decides to stay in school, I'd like to know why. To my knowledge it hasn't happened.

It hasn't happened in the last 10 years perhaps, but it did happen longer ago than that. Tim Duncan is a great example. Yes, he may have left some money on the table, but it worked out pretty well for him.

[hallcity]

Just saw that Bonzie Colson is coming back for Notre Dame. He and Grayson are certainly the type of player you want coming back.

[kAzE]

In the bold section below, you are ignoring the one and really almost universal truth of the system the way the NBA and the NBA player's association have it set up right now. If a player can get a guaranteed contract by leaving school early, they would be foolish to stay in school (any school), unless their family is so wealthy that millions of dollars don't matter. I won't bore you with the math, but the lost $ by staying + the delay in reaching eligibility for the first free agent contract cannot be made up by improving a player's draft stock. I don't know how we'd ever confirm, but the next time a player is an "iron clad" top 20 pick and decides to stay in school, I'd like to know why. To my knowledge it hasn't happened.

Off the top of my head, I can name three recent examples. Marcus Smart did this in 2013. He was projected as a potential lottery pick and went back to Oklahoma State for his sophomore year anyway. Harrison Barnes & James McAdoo both were projected as top 20 picks after their freshmen years and went back to school as well.

[ChillinDuke]

It hasn't happened in the last 10 years perhaps, but it did happen longer ago than that. Tim Duncan is a great example. Yes, he may have left some money on the table, but it worked out pretty well for him.

Another small quibble. Tim Duncan was the #1 pick in the draft and received just under $3 million in his rookie season. The current #1 pick in the draft gets paid ~5 million. That's a 66% increase since Duncan made his decision.

Your point still holds, but it's weaker. If it took you all the way back to Tim Duncan to find your example, and the money increased ~66% since then, imagine the infrequency of such a decision now.

- Chillin

Duncan Rookie Salary (http://www.spotrac.com/nba/san-antonio-spurs/tim-duncan-2703/cash-earnings/)
Current Rookie Salary (http://basketball.realgm.com/nba/info/rookie_scale)

[kAzE]

Another small quibble. Tim Duncan was the #1 pick in the draft and received just under $3 million in his rookie season. The current #1 pick in the draft gets paid ~5 million. That's a 66% increase since Duncan made his decision.

Your point still holds, but it's weaker. If it took you all the way back to Tim Duncan to find your example, and the money increased ~66% since then, imagine the infrequency of such a decision now.

- Chillin

Duncan Rookie Salary (http://www.spotrac.com/nba/san-antonio-spurs/tim-duncan-2703/cash-earnings/)
Current Rookie Salary (http://basketball.realgm.com/nba/info/rookie_scale)

Actually, adjusting for inflation, Duncan's salary in 1998 is not that far off from $5 million in current day money.

http://www.in2013dollars.com/1998-dollars-in-2016?amount=3000000

Using that calculator, 3 million in 1998 is over 4.4 million in 2016 dollars. So really, only the #1 overall pick in 2016 would have had an actual higher salary than Tim Duncan did in 1998.

[Natty_B]

Off the top of my head, I can name three recent examples.

It happened a few weeks ago with Robert Williams of A&M saying he's coming back despite being a potential lottery pick (way higher than Kennard who is down to #27 in the Draft Express out today).

http://www.espn.com/mens-college-basketball/story/_/id/18967267/texas-robert-williams-return-sophomore-year

[devilsadvocate85]

I could be wrong, but my guess is that the players who came back got significant input/intel that the NBA people weren't as sure about them as the draft web sites.

Again, their can be extenuating circumstances, but faced with the math, I would be shocked if any of us would decide differently in our fields. And if any of us are in a field that pays like the NBA, I'd like to talk (I'm available for adoption :D)


It happened a few weeks ago with Robert Williams of A&M saying he's coming back despite being a potential lottery pick (way higher than Kennard who is down to #27 in the Draft Express out today).

http://www.espn.com/mens-college-basketball/story/_/id/18967267/texas-robert-williams-return-sophomore-year

[ChillinDuke]

Actually, adjusting for inflation, Duncan's salary in 1998 is not that far off from $5 million in current day money.

http://www.in2013dollars.com/1998-dollars-in-2016?amount=3000000

Using that calculator, 3 million in 1998 is over 4.4 million in 2016 dollars. So really, only the #1 overall pick in 2016 would have had an actual higher salary than Tim Duncan did in 1998.

The inflation point is fair, but you can only compare #1 to #1. Still looks like the inflation adjusted $ increased over 10%, assuming that increase holds across all levels (which I don't know for certain). And I keep hearing it's going to go up further?

- Chillin

[Wander]

Off the top of my head, I can name three recent examples. Marcus Smart did this in 2013. He was projected as a potential lottery pick and went back to Oklahoma State for his sophomore year anyway. Harrison Barnes & James McAdoo both were projected as top 20 picks after their freshmen years and went back to school as well.

Plenty of examples. Yours are good ones - off the top of my head, add Josh McRoberts and Blake Griffin to the list.

[COYS]

Plenty of examples. Yours are good ones - off the top of my head, add Josh McRoberts and Blake Griffin to the list.

Mason was also a probable top 20 pick after his freshman season based on his potential.

[English]

Plenty of examples. Yours are good ones - off the top of my head, add Josh McRoberts and Blake Griffin to the list.

Agreed.

Although, isn't JMM the posterboy for why coming back to improve your draft status is/can be a sucker's bet?

[kAzE]

Agreed.

Although, isn't JMM the posterboy for why coming back to improve your draft status is/can be a sucker's bet?

Yeah, I would say most of the time, coming back to improve draft stock has not worked out. Many flaws in a young player can be brushed aside by the "oh, he's young, he will learn to _____" narrative, and the older a player gets, the less convincing that becomes. The NBA draft is based mostly on potential, so going on the current system, as long as you exhibit enough potential to be considered a first rounder, you should go. Because if you come back and don't show progress towards reaching said potential, it probably isn't going to help you. If you come back and show you're on track to reach that potential, your draft stock doesn't really change.

In fact, in order to IMPROVE draft stock, you would have to show potential that wasn't already there, which is pretty hard to do. Luke did that this year, but it's pretty uncommon to have this level of improvement over a single year. The only really legitimate reason I could see to delay your NBA draft entry when you're already more or less a known quantity, is to avoid a stacked draft in favor of a perceived weak draft class, where you would be projected to go higher just based on a dearth of talent. And even then, you're still delaying your free agency by 1 year, which means you could be leaving a ton of money on the table.

[flyingdutchdevil]

Agreed.

Although, isn't JMM the posterboy for why coming back to improve your draft status is/can be a sucker's bet?

So is JM (Josh McRoberts). Top 5-10 pick to a second round pick. Ouch...

[Bay Area Duke Fan]

Agreed.

Although, isn't JMM the posterboy for why coming back to improve your draft status is/can be a sucker's bet?

What about Grayson?

[DukeandMdFan]

So is JM (Josh McRoberts). Top 5-10 pick to a second round pick. Ouch...

I think it is worth noting that McRoberts has had a long NBA career, perhaps much longer and with much higher career earnings than if he was OAD.

[flyingdutchdevil]

I think it is worth noting that McRoberts has had a long NBA career, perhaps much longer and with much higher career earnings than if he was OAD.

And perhaps he missed out on first round pick money and another year of earnings.

Perhaps Grayson should have declared last year and become a first round pick instead of a second round pick/undraftable this year.

[Olympic Fan]

So is JM (Josh McRoberts). Top 5-10 pick to a second round pick. Ouch...

I was covering Duke at that time and I don't recall him projected nearly that high.

Mid-to-late first round was the normal projection, but even that was warped because McRoberts had serious back problems in the weeks leading up to the draft. He underwent back surgery in August. Interesting note -- the wiki entry for McRoberts does suggest that he passed up a spot in the lottery to come back ... but the citation for that claim is a link to the Duke release announcing his return -- which contains no mention of his projected status in the 2006 draft: http://www.goduke.com/ViewArticle.dbml?SPSID=22724&SPID=1845&DB_OEM_ID=4200&ATCLID=271339

As a natter of fact, McRoberts did step up his game in his sophomore season. He was the best all-around player on one of the weakest Duke teams in this century, earning second-team All-America honors.

[subzero02]

And perhaps he missed out on first round pick money and another year of earnings.

Perhaps Grayson should have declared last year and become a first round pick instead of a second round pick/undraftable this year.

falling to a second round pick helped Carlos Boozer from a financial standpoint

[Tappan Zee Devil]

Just saw that Bonzie Colson is coming back for Notre Dame. He and Grayson are certainly the type of player you want coming back.

God help us

[lotusland]

God help us

Agreed. Every time we play against him I just shake mu head and mumble "why can't we stop him?" It's unbelievable how good he is playing center at 6'5. Seems like his game would translate very well as an undersized 4 with 3 point range in the NBA.

[TAZORAC]

Could be d-league teammates with Giles

[sagegrouse]

I think it is worth noting that McRoberts has had a long NBA career, perhaps much longer and with much higher career earnings than if he was OAD.

Judge for yourself:

Salaries



Season Team Lg Salary
2007-08 Portl NBA $427,163
2008-09 Indna NBA $711,517
2009-10 Indna NBA $825,497
2010-11 Indna NBA $885,120
2011-12 Lakers NBA $3,000,000
2012-13 Charl NBA $3,135,000
2013-14 Charl NBA $2,652,000
2014-15 Miami NBA $5,305,000
2015-16 Miami NBA $5,543,725
2016-17 Miami NBA $5,782,450
2017-18 Miami NBA $6,021,175

Total = $34,300,000

[English]

Judge for yourself:

Salaries



Season Team Lg Salary
2007-08 Portl NBA $427,163
2008-09 Indna NBA $711,517
2009-10 Indna NBA $825,497
2010-11 Indna NBA $885,120
2011-12 Lakers NBA $3,000,000
2012-13 Charl NBA $3,135,000
2013-14 Charl NBA $2,652,000
2014-15 Miami NBA $5,305,000
2015-16 Miami NBA $5,543,725
2016-17 Miami NBA $5,782,450
2017-18 Miami NBA $6,021,175

Total = $34,300,000

What are we supposed to judge this for ourselves against? He's certainly made a lucrative career out of playing basketball in the NBA, but the crux of the debate is whether he would've made more had he come out the year before, when he was a projected first round pick...from where I'm watching, there's no rationale comparison against which to judge.

[sagegrouse]

What are we supposed to judge this for ourselves against? He's certainly made a lucrative career out of playing basketball in the NBA, but the crux of the debate is whether he would've made more had he come out the year before, when he was a projected first round pick...from where I'm watching, there's no rationale comparison against which to judge.

No problem. The quoted poster cited a "long NBA career, perhaps much longer and with much higher career earnings than if he was OAD." I thought the point deserves some data. Perhaps you thought I should have conjured up an alternative universe, where Josh left after the 2006 season. I'll give that some thought.

[DukeandMdFan]

Judge for yourself:

Salaries



Season Team Lg Salary
2007-08 Portl NBA $427,163
2008-09 Indna NBA $711,517
2009-10 Indna NBA $825,497
2010-11 Indna NBA $885,120
2011-12 Lakers NBA $3,000,000
2012-13 Charl NBA $3,135,000
2013-14 Charl NBA $2,652,000
2014-15 Miami NBA $5,305,000
2015-16 Miami NBA $5,543,725
2016-17 Miami NBA $5,782,450
2017-18 Miami NBA $6,021,175

Total = $34,300,000


What are we supposed to judge this for ourselves against? He's certainly made a lucrative career out of playing basketball in the NBA, but the crux of the debate is whether he would've made more had he come out the year before, when he was a projected first round pick...from where I'm watching, there's no rationale comparison against which to judge.


No problem. The quoted poster cited a "long NBA career, perhaps much longer and with much higher career earnings than if he was OAD." I thought the point deserves some data. Perhaps you thought I should have conjured up an alternative universe, where Josh left after the 2006 season. I'll give that some thought.

Thanks for the information.

Obviously, we don't know what would have happened, but $34.3M is a lot of NBA money. He played more and produced more in his third season than the second. Perhaps, he would have only had one contract if he had been OAD. Trajan Langdon was picked 11th in 1999 and made $4.5M in three seasons.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/m/mcrobjo01.html#per_game::none

[Olympic Fan]

No problem. The quoted poster cited a "long NBA career, perhaps much longer and with much higher career earnings than if he was OAD." I thought the point deserves some data. Perhaps you thought I should have conjured up an alternative universe, where Josh left after the 2006 season. I'll give that some thought.

I was playing around with that idea, but it depends so much on where he would have been drafted.

Let's see. if he's drafted No. 15 in 2006. He would have been guaranteed $2.7 million in his first two years (total), plus team option years of $1.5 million and $2.3 million. After that, it's up in the air ... although a team could have signed him long term before his fourth season ends. Or else, he might not have been quite as ready to contribute when he first got to he league ... and maybe wouldn't have been as valuable after four years.

Of course, that money for the No. 15 pick is a wild guess. If he's picked earlier, he makes more ... picked later (which I think he would have been) and he makes less.

But let's stick with No. 15 money.

Obviously, he would have made $1.3 million in 2007 that he didn't get while playing at Duke. If he stays on schedule (and doesn't sign a new long-term deal), he gets $6.5 million though the 2010 season. In real life, he made right at $2 million from the NBA through the 2010 season. After that, I think you have to suggest that he makes similar money from 2011 onward.

So did he cost himself $4.5 million by staying at Duke? It's possible, although it's worth noting that had he been drafted 25th (which is what I think), he makes less that $3.5 million through 2010.

That's a career difference of $1.5 million -- which sounds like a lot, but is small potatoes in a career earning $34-plus million.

We'll never know, but I think we can agree that McRoberts cost himself some money by returning to Duke in 2007 -- but not a huge amount in terms of his career earnings.

[Jeffrey]

We'll never know, but I think we can agree that McRoberts cost himself some money by returning to Duke in 2007 -- but not a huge amount in terms of his career earnings.

McRoberts may have made himself some money by returning to Duke in 2007. He may have learned something at Duke in 2007 which has enabled him to last longer and play better in the NBA.

I do believe Avery cost himself some money by not returning to Duke in 1999.

[kAzE]

McRoberts may have made himself some money by returning to Duke in 2007. He may have learned something at Duke in 2007 which has enabled him to last longer and play better in the NBA.

I do believe Avery cost himself some money by not returning to Duke in 1999.

Eh, who cares? We got Jason Williams the very next year. That turned out fine for Duke.

[Jeffrey]

Eh, who cares? We got Jason Williams the very next year. That turned out fine for Duke.

Things have almost always turned out fine for Duke during the K years. That's why K has made more career earnings than anyone else we have talked about on this thread.

Avery is just a good example of someone who did not listen to K.

[Olympic Fan]

Eh, who cares? We got Jason Williams the very next year. That turned out fine for Duke.

We had Jason Williams signed long before Avery decided to go pro.

The problem with the 2000 team (which did dominate the ACC and finish No. 1 nationally in the final AP poll) was lack of depth -- it was basically a six-man team that was down to five when Dunleavy got mono late.

The presence of Avery would have provided a cushion and an experienced guard to help Williams (a prep wing) make the transition to the point. With Avery, that looks a lot more like a Final Four and maybe national title team than a Sweet 16 team.

So even though Jason Williams turned out more than okay, having Avery in 2000 would have been huge for the program.

Note: Losing Avery unexpectedly did open the door for Andre Buckner, who was headed to Tennessee as a recruited walk-on when K offered because he wanted another point guard in practice to challenge Williams. So, yes, if we could have gotten one more season from Avery, we would have lost Buckner. I could live with that.

[wsb3]

Eh, who cares? We got Jason Williams the very next year. That turned out fine for Duke.

I for one would have loved to have had Avery on that team with Jason. Young thin team. Might have made it past Fla. with Avery..

[pfrduke]

So, yes, if we could have gotten one more season from Avery, we would have lost Buckner. I could live with that.

But who would have gotten all up in Matt Doherty's face? That's a rivalry memory I'm glad we don't have to live without.

[CDu]

We had Jason Williams signed long before Avery decided to go pro.

The problem with the 2000 team (which did dominate the ACC and finish No. 1 nationally in the final AP poll) was lack of depth -- it was basically a six-man team that was down to five when Dunleavy got mono late.

The presence of Avery would have provided a cushion and an experienced guard to help Williams (a prep wing) make the transition to the point. With Avery, that looks a lot more like a Final Four and maybe national title team than a Sweet 16 team.

So even though Jason Williams turned out more than okay, having Avery in 2000 would have been huge for the program.

Note: Losing Avery unexpectedly did open the door for Andre Buckner, who was headed to Tennessee as a recruited walk-on when K offered because he wanted another point guard in practice to challenge Williams. So, yes, if we could have gotten one more season from Avery, we would have lost Buckner. I could live with that.

Even without Avery we were a Final Four caliber team in 2000. We were up 4 on (eventual finalist) UF late in that Sweet-16 game when Williams took and missed an open 3. UF took it the other way and scored a 3. Williams again had an open look at a 3, missed short, then saved it right to a breaking Nelson. Who woud get it to Haslem for the lead with about 2 min to go.

If either of those open 3s fall for Williams, I think we win that game. They didn't, and we ran out of gas after that. But we were a 1 seed, and a Final Four contender that just hit a wall at the wrong time.

With Avery on that team, we are not just a Final Four caliber team. We would have been the heavy favorite to win it all.

[pfrduke]

But who would have gotten all up in Matt Doherty's face? That's a rivalry memory I'm glad we don't have to live without.

And thanks to Youtube, can live it in perpetuity:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HxxCWbde6sc

Head to around the 1:40 mark.

[Jeffrey]

But who would have gotten all up in Matt Doherty's face?

It had to be someone under 6'4" since Matt would only fight someone substantially smaller than him.

[subzero02]

We had Jason Williams signed long before Avery decided to go pro.

The problem with the 2000 team (which did dominate the ACC and finish No. 1 nationally in the final AP poll) was lack of depth -- it was basically a six-man team that was down to five when Dunleavy got mono late.

The presence of Avery would have provided a cushion and an experienced guard to help Williams (a prep wing) make the transition to the point. With Avery, that looks a lot more like a Final Four and maybe national title team than a Sweet 16 team.

So even though Jason Williams turned out more than okay, having Avery in 2000 would have been huge for the program.

Note: Losing Avery unexpectedly did open the door for Andre Buckner, who was headed to Tennessee as a recruited walk-on when K offered because he wanted another point guard in practice to challenge Williams. So, yes, if we could have gotten one more season from Avery, we would have lost Buckner. I could live with that.

If Avery returned for his junior season and Dunleavy didn't get mono, I think we make the final four and have a chance to beat MSU. Cincinnati was the best team that year, until Martin broke his leg in the conference tournament. National title runner-up, Florida was a talented and young team but I think we would have beaten them with a healthy Dunleavy. I remember that coach K decided to run with the up-tempo Florida squad and our boys just ran out of gas down the stretch. I will never forget the look on Jwill's face when he was completely spent... he looked over at K and his face was basically begging for a timeout.

[Furniture]

https://mobile.twitter.com/DukeMBB/status/851948067188338688/video/1

[subzero02]

https://mobile.twitter.com/DukeMBB/status/851948067188338688/video/1

great message from a great kid. I really hope he excels in the NBA.

[The Gordog]

We had Jason Williams signed long before Avery decided to go pro.

The problem with the 2000 team (which did dominate the ACC and finish No. 1 nationally in the final AP poll) was lack of depth -- it was basically a six-man team that was down to five when Dunleavy got mono late.

The presence of Avery would have provided a cushion and an experienced guard to help Williams (a prep wing) make the transition to the point. With Avery, that looks a lot more like a Final Four and maybe national title team than a Sweet 16 team.

So even though Jason Williams turned out more than okay, having Avery in 2000 would have been huge for the program.

Note: Losing Avery unexpectedly did open the door for Andre Buckner, who was headed to Tennessee as a recruited walk-on when K offered because he wanted another point guard in practice to challenge Williams. So, yes, if we could have gotten one more season from Avery, we would have lost Buckner. I could live with that.

A prep wing? That does not square with my memory at all. Jwill was a PG all along, rated #1 HS senior at that position.

[Olympic Fan]

A prep wing? That does not square with my memory at all. Jwill was a PG all along, rated #1 HS senior at that position.

Nope ... he played wing guard in high school. He originally wanted to go to North Carolina, but he thought his future was as a point guard (he played that position some in AAU ball). Bill Guthridge told him that they saw him only as a wing guard and they had Ed Cota for 2000 and their point guard for the next three years -- a guy named Ron Curry. That opened the door for Duke to make its move.

[sagegrouse]

Nope ... he played wing guard in high school. He originally wanted to go to North Carolina, but he thought his future was as a point guard (he played that position some in AAU ball). Bill Guthridge told him that they saw him only as a wing guard and they had Ed Cota for 2000 and their point guard for the next three years -- a guy named Ron Curry. That opened the door for Duke to make its move.

Guthridge's tripping of the light fandango (credit: Procol Harum) with respect to JWill shortened his tenure as UNC head coach. Ron Curry, a football QB as well as a basketball player, scored all of 226 points in his truncated career at UNC. Cota never sniffed the NBA, although he was a heckuva college point guard. Guthridge's coaching was fine, but his recruiting left people cold. His last recruited class included the forgettables, Brian Morrison, Neil Fingleton (the tallest man in Britain) and Adam Boone, although Coach Gut didn't get to coach them. That pleasure fell to Matt Doherty.

[Matches]

I do believe Avery cost himself some money by not returning to Duke in 1999.

It's unknowable of course - but I'd submit it's equally possible that some of the flaws in Avery's game would have been exposed had he returned to Duke for another year, perhaps causing him to be drafted lower and making less than he did. Avery was a very good college player, but arguably a dime-a-dozen NBA talent who nevertheless managed to make several million dollars playing in the NBA. His name gets tossed around a lot as a guy who screwed up by coming out early - and maybe he did - but I don't think that's a foregone conclusion.

[Jeffrey]

I'd submit it's equally possible that some of the flaws in Avery's game would have been exposed had he returned to Duke for another year.

IMO, those flaws had been shown many times during nationally televised games. I doubt many NBA scouts had missed them after two seasons of Duke exposure.

I'd submit the flaws were known and K might have helped Avery start to correct them if had he returned to Duke for another year. Avery would have been practicing against a future #2 NBA pick.

[Furniture]

Comedy legend @AdamSandler (https://mobile.twitter.com/AdamSandler) preparing for his show at the @DPAC (https://mobile.twitter.com/DPAC) by getting buckets at the K assist @LukeKennard5 (https://mobile.twitter.com/LukeKennard5))


0:09
https://pbs-h2.twimg.com/ext_tw_video_thumb/852644105289183233/pu/img/qKeHq5qHh2ftm01o.jpg:small
(https://mobile.twitter.com/DukeMBB/status/852644173597605888/video/1)

I wish I was cool enough to ball with Luke Kennard!!

[Edouble]

Nope ... he played wing guard in high school. He originally wanted to go to North Carolina, but he thought his future was as a point guard (he played that position some in AAU ball). Bill Guthridge told him that they saw him only as a wing guard and they had Ed Cota for 2000 and their point guard for the next three years -- a guy named Ron Curry. That opened the door for Duke to make its move.

Yep...

http://articles.latimes.com/2002/jan/31/sports/sp-norwood31

You have to scroll down a bit in the article, but that is what went down. I do not believe Cota's presence had much to do with it. The traditional Dean Smith model is to recruit a position with players that are 2-3 years apart. Jason Williams would actually fit the model perfectly- a freshman to play a year under a senior (Cota) before "inheriting" tenure at the point. The issue was with Curry, who was already on his way to UNC.

One other part of the story is that Guthridge was enamored with Omar Cook, who was his insurance policy for Curry. Curry had committed to Virginia primarily as a basketball player, but decommitted and signed with UNC primarily as a football player. At the end of the day, Gut just didn't see how great Jason Williams would go on to become, which is as good as any player he worked with in his 30+ years at UNC.


Guthridge's tripping of the light fandango (credit: Procol Harum) with respect to JWill shortened his tenure as UNC head coach. Ron Curry, a football QB as well as a basketball player, scored all of 226 points in his truncated career at UNC. Cota never sniffed the NBA, although he was a heckuva college point guard. Guthridge's coaching was fine, but his recruiting left people cold. His last recruited class included the forgettables, Brian Morrison, Neil Fingleton (the tallest man in Britain) and Adam Boone, although Coach Gut didn't get to coach them. That pleasure fell to Matt Doherty.

Curry was a pass first (QB model) point guard and played his first year backing up Ed Cota, who is #3 all time in NCAA assists, IIRC. I am not going to look up a UNC record. Curry also joined the basketball team late each season due to football. All in all, giving his point total doesn't tell the full story.

Cota should have come out after his sophomore season. He got fat and let himself go.

Gut's coaching was fair, not fine. He mimed Smith and failed to get the best North Carolina team I have ever seen (1998) past a very beatable Utah squad in the Final Four. His 2000 Final Four ranks up there with the luckiest, most unexpected FF runs of all time.

[sagegrouse]

Yep...

Curry was a pass first (QB model) point guard and played his first year backing up Ed Cota, who is #3 all time in NCAA assists, IIRC. I am not going to look up a UNC record. Curry also joined the basketball team late each season due to football. All in all, giving his point total doesn't tell the full story.

Cota should have come out after his sophomore season. He got fat and let himself go.

Gut's coaching was fair, not fine. He mimed Smith and failed to get the best North Carolina team I have ever seen (1998) past a very beatable Utah squad in the Final Four. His 2000 Final Four ranks up there with the luckiest, most unexpected FF runs of all time.
I seem to recall that Ron Curry's basketball career ended, more or less, with a whimper. He and Julius Peppers thought that one year with Matt Doherty was enough and dropped off the basketball team. I well remember TV coverage of them sitting in the stands at the Smith Center during -- what was it? -- the 2002 season.

[Olympic Fan]

Gut's coaching was fair, not fine. He mimed Smith and failed to get the best North Carolina team I have ever seen (1998) past a very beatable Utah squad in the Final Four. His 2000 Final Four ranks up there with the luckiest, most unexpected FF runs of all time.

If you remember, UNC was a six-man team in 1998. The problem was that Gut couldn't make a decision on who to bring off the bench, so instead of designating a sixth man, he rotated starters. Each of his top guys would sit out every sixth game. Five of the six guys accepted that ... one didn't -- senior guard Shammond Williams, who was the team's only consistent outside shooter.

Late in the season, Williams had a meltdown at Virginia. It was his turn to come off the bench and he threw a tantrum, left the team and returned to the locker room while the team was on the floor in the second half and generally made a you-know-what of himself. Gut essentially let him get away with it without punishment.

Well, Carolina sails through the ACC Tournament, and cruises through the first four rounds of the NCAA Tournament, beating UNC Charlotte in OT, then taking down tough opponents in Michigan State and UConn in Greensboro. But they get to San Antonio and guess whose turn it is to come off the bench? No temper tantrum this time, but Williams missed 10 of 12 shots and Utah's zone shuts down Antwan Jamison and Vince Carter.

So I agree that Gut's coaching had a lot to do with UNC's failure in 1998.

He did get lucky in 2000, although UNC had to beat No. 1 seed Stanford in the second round. Other than that, it was an easy path to the Final Four.

BTW, don't downplay Ed Cota's career -- not only did he finished third in ACC history in career assists, he quarterbacked three Final Four teams.

Curry's career is kind of strange. He originally committed to Virginia on a football scholarship, then changed his mind and picked UNC on a basketball deal. The idea was that he would get a little taste of football as a freshman, then join the basketball team,. But UNC's top two QBs got hurt and Curry found himself starting as a true freshman on a team that finished 6-6 and went to the Las Vegas Bowl. That delayed his joining the bball team until December ... and he never got into the basketball rotation.

He actually had a pretty good junior year in hoops in 2000-01. He was the starting point guard on a team that beat Duke in Durham and tied Duke for the ACC regular season title. UNC was No. 1 in the nation in late February, but collapsed down the stretch losing five straight Sunday games to close the season (Clemson, Virginia, Duke, Duke and Penn State). Curry turned pro -- in the NFL -- and didn't play basketball as a senior.

The Jason Williams/Ron Curry dynamic illustrates what we mean when we say Mike Krzyzewski "doesn't have positions." I guess it would be more correct to say Mike doesn't force players into positions ... as opposed to UNC, which under Smith was a very structured system. Williams told me -- on the floor at the Smith Center, in between games at the Bob Gibbons Tournament -- that he had grown up as a UNC fan and wanted to play at UNC, but Bill Guthridge told him that they were set at the point with Cota and then Curry. He did want to recruit Williams as a wing guard. But Williams, who played wing for his high school team, wanted to be a point. K promised him that chance at Duke, even though as a freshman, Williams was projected to share the backcourt with Will Avery -- a natural combo guard who was trying to learn the point to help his NBA career.

The point is, K would have played Williams and Avery together -- two points -- as he played Dawkins and Amaker together, as he played Quinn Cook and Tyus Jones together, as he later played Williams and Chris Duhon together. At UNC -- under the system coached by Dean and Gut, you don't play two points together.

Anyway, we were very lucky that Dean wanted Kenny Anderson so bad that he passed on Bobby Hurley and Gut was so sure Jason Williams wasn't a point guard that he passed on JWill.

[gumbomoop]

I’ve revived this memory lane thread to discuss old, old business, a subject that has come up in and sidetracked the DJ Steward thread. It has the added, perhaps only, memory lane benefit of seeing Oly Fan’s name at the top of the post that mine now follows.


Kennard is the perfect example of a player who sucked as a frosh...


as an advertised shooter, shooting 32% from 3 is pretty bad.


He didn't shoot well from 3 as a freshman. But he didn't suck. Dude averaged almost 12 ppg, shot nearly 90% from the line and 52.8% from 2pt range, had a near 2:1 assist/turnover ratio, and had a 123.4 ORtg.

He was a very good player as a freshman. He just wasn't yet considered NBA material.

This is old business, but interesting to me as we’re biding our time for a bit before Keels’s announcement, and nervously looking for news about other possible come-here’s and leave-here’s.

My view is that CDu has effectively shown that Kennard didn’t suck as a frosh, but was in fact, overall, quite good his first year. Now, small irony, I personally was just slightly disappointed at the time that Kennard wasn’t just a little better, but my expectations of him were very high. We had a fairly lively debate about him during his senior year in HS. (He had announced for Duke at end of his junior year.). I and several others were very, very high on Luke, but not, to address uh_no’s comment, principally or solely because of his “advertised” shooting prowess. We were if anything more impressed with his handle, amphibiousness, court-sense, vision, passing, footwork, jab-step. He wasn’t his HS team’s nominal PG, but he controlled their O.

In the years since Kennard’s departure after his soph year, it has been intermittently observed on EK that “no one expected Kennard to leave after 2 years.” But before he ever set foot on campus, halfway through his senior year in HS, I posted that “I hope, but doubt” that Luke would be at Duke for 3 years.

In the event, my doubts were justified, my hopes dashed. I was disappointed at his leaving, but not surprised that after a pretty good frosh season, he had a much more impressive soph season, consensus 2d team AA, becoming known as an “advertised shooter.”

[UrinalCake]

Gaaaah, please do not bump a thread that includes the words “declares for the draft” without first changing the title. I am now conditioned to freak out every time I see those words!

[CameronBornAndBred]

We were if anything more impressed with his handle, amphibiousness, court-sense, vision, passing, footwork, jab-step.

I thought State had the market cornered on those amphibious guys.

[gumbomoop]

Gaaaah, please do not bump a thread that includes the words “declares for the draft” without first changing the title. I am now conditioned to freak out every time I see those words!

My bad. I was observing the objections in the Steward thread to thread-hijack, and so went back to the appropriate thread to discuss Kennard’s early departure.

I thought the word “Kennard” would suffice to avoid freakouts, but I apologize to you and all others currently being transported in an ambulance after a 911 medical emergency call. I am confident you and others will read this apology, as you will be following DBR even as the medical personnel try to calm you.