What Is Your Duke Offseason Wishlist?

[DukeTrinity11]

There are 5 moving parts left when thinking about the Duke 2017-18 MBB Roster: Grayson Allen, Luke Kennard, Trevon Duval, Kevin Knox and Mo Bamba.

How would you rank these players in your opinion based on their importance to the overall success of the team next year?

I would of course love to have all 5 of these young men but here's who I want in order of importance:

1. Trevon Duval: He will be the straw that stirs the drink for a potential championship team next year. Trey is a pass-first PG who is like a bull in a china shop when it comes to penetrating to the rim and has the potential to be a great on-ball defender. I haven't wanted a recruit for Duke this bad since the Black Falcon broke my heart in the Summer of 2009.

2. Grayson Allen: The redemption tour begins for Allen next year if he chooses to return and he could give us the senior leadership that every other past Duke Final 4 team has had. He should be a good defender if he's healthy and his spot up shooting should be deadly on the wing with Trey and Jackson feeding him the ball. Allen has the potential to have a Frank Mason like senior season.

3. Mohammed Bamba: Mo has the potential to be a terror on the defensive end and one of the best rim protectors in the country right out of the gate as a freshman like Anthony Davis was. He's raw on the offensive end but he"ll function as a human eraser as the rim if Allen/Kennard/Jackson get beat off the dribble by opposing guards. A healthy Carter/Bolden/Bamba frontcourt would be the best in the country hands down.

4. Luke Kennard: Luke could potentially be the best offensive player in the country if he were to return to Duke. My only major issue with him is his egregiously terrible play on the defensive end and inability to keep tabs on the man he's guarding. I think the up tempo nature of Duke's offense next year with Duval at the helm would suit Grayson better than Luke.

5. Kevin Knox: Knox would seemingly be a plug and play version of what Tatum/Ingram/Winslow/Parker were the past 4 seasons but I don't believe he's quite as talented or ready to be an immediate contributor in college as those 4 guys. I would also like to see Coach K take advantage of our frontcourt depth and play 2 of Carter/Bolden/Bamba/Vrankovic at all times. Knox would be a fine addition to our team but I would also like to give more minutes to multi-year players Jack White and Javin DeLaurier to help them develop so that they can be major contributors later in their careers at Duke and we can build some stability within the program.

I'm not including Frank Jackson in this discussion as I believe that he's 100% coming back to Duke next year and have not heard any information suggesting that he's testing the draft waters.

What is your order of preference?

[CDu]

With the news that Bolden will return next year, I'd say:

1/2. Allen/Kennard. In no particular order. Getting one of them back is #1 for me. Either will be the best player on the team, and a strong candidate for ACC and National Player of the Year honors. Also, I'm not a fan of prioritizing someone we don't already have over someone we do. Especially when the someones we do are both former All-Americans.
3. Duval. He's a PG, and the best available PG. That's a great thing to add.
4. Knox. Mainly because I don't want him going to UNC to pair with Berry, Pinson, and Bradley.
5. Bamba. I think he'd likely be better than Bolden. But I think Bolden can give a close enough approximation of Bamba that I'd rate the others as more important. Plus, I want Bolden's discussion to return to be a positive, and him getting buried on the bench behind two freshmen wouldn't be a positive.

[kAzE]

Man, we're really getting into the thread retreads now. Didn't we just have the "pick 2" thread like a week ago? Mine still hasn't changed:

1. Luke or Grayson
2. Duval
3. The other of Luke or Grayson
4. Knox
5. Bamba

[flyingdutchdevil]

With the news that Bolden will return next year, I'd say:

1/2. Allen/Kennard. In no particular order. Getting one of them back is #1 for me. Either will be the best player on the team, and a strong candidate for ACC and National Player of the Year honors. Also, I'm not a fan of prioritizing someone we don't already have over someone we do. Especially when the someones we do are both former All-Americans.
3. Duval. He's a PG, and the best available PG. That's a great thing to add.
4. Knox. Mainly because I don't want him going to UNC to pair with Berry, Pinson, and Bradley.
5. Bamba. I think he'd likely be better than Bolden. But I think Bolden can give a close enough approximation of Bamba that I'd rate the others as more important. Plus, I want Bolden's discussion to return to be a positive, and him getting buried on the bench behind two freshmen wouldn't be a positive.

I kinda agree with this list. But I will say that I would rather have 3. than 1/2. Because there is only one Duval. There is only one player who can be a game changer at the 1 for us next year. Jackson, Kennard, and Allen are game changers. But they aren't game changers at the 1. Duval is. He has the ability to make everyone that much better. Think Kyrie in his first 9 games at Duke. What a stud!

For your 1/2, there are two of them so the odds that we get at least one are fairly high. If we assume 50% for Allen and 25% for Kennard, there is still a ~63% chance we get at least one them for next year. Of course, I understand that Allen's and Kennard's decisions likely aren't independent, but you get my drift.

The uniqueness of Duval makes him that much more important.

[kAzE]

I kinda agree with this list. But I will say that I would rather have 3. than 1/2. Because there is only one Duval. There is only one player who can be a game changer at the 1 for us next year. Jackson, Kennard, and Allen are game changers. But they aren't game changers at the 1. Duval is. He has the ability to make everyone that much better. Think Kyrie in his first 9 games at Duke. What a stud!

For your 1/2, there are two of them so the odds that we get at least one are fairly high. If we assume 50% for Allen and 25% for Kennard, there is still a ~63% chance we get at least one them for next year. Of course, I understand that Allen's and Kennard's decisions likely aren't independent, but you get my drift.

The uniqueness of Duval makes him that much more important.

Whoa, let's slow down on the Kyrie hype. Duval is not Kyrie. Not even close. He's a good ball handler, but Kyrie is in a class by himself, or maybe a 2 person class with Steph Curry. Kyrie is also a WAY better outside shooter than Duval. The only thing Duval has on Kyrie is maybe a little strength and a bit better vertical. I can't even say he's a better finisher at the rim than Kyrie, because Kyrie is also amazing at that.

Just because we are likely to get one of those guys back doesn't make them any less important . . . I think their leadership could be just as important as anything Duval brings to the table. I'm really tired of the "we lost this year because we didn't have a point guard" argument. Not saying you were one of those people, but there are quite a few of them. We beat the national freaking champions twice with no point guard. We did just fine. Could a point guard have helped? Maybe, but would a point guard have been more important than having Grayson or Luke? Hard to say. I think you still have to have one of those alpha dog scorers. Duval makes them better, but he's not more important than having one of them, in my opinion.

[flyingdutchdevil]

Whoa, let's slow down on the Kyrie hype. Duval is not Kyrie. Not even close. He's a good ball handler, but Kyrie is in a class by himself, or maybe a 2 person class with Steph Curry. Kyrie is also a WAY better outside shooter than Duval. The only thing Duval has on Kyrie is maybe a little strength and a bit better vertical. I can't even say he's a better finisher at the rim than Kyrie, because Kyrie is also amazing at that.

Just because we are liekly to get one of those guys back doesn't make them any less important . . . I think their leadership could be just as important as anything Duval brings to the table. I'm really tired of the "we lost this year because we didn't have a point guard" argument. Not saying you were one of those people, but there are quite a few of them. We beat the national freaking champions twice with no point guard. We did just fine. Could a point guard have helped? Maybe, but would a point guard have been more important than having Grayson or Luke? Hard to say. I think you still have to have one of those alpha dog scorers. Duval makes them better, but he's not more important than having one of them, in my opinion.

Firstly, I'm not saying we lost because we had no PG. I've been harping that our backcourt D sucked and that's why we lost.

Secondly, you hit the nail on the head and what I've been arguing: we have to have ONE alpha dog scorer. Two is great. But one is necessary. And given there are TWO decisions on alpha dog scorers and only ONE PG, I'm going with Duval being more important than EITHER Kennard or Allen but not the collective Kennard/Allen.

Thirdly, I don't think Duval is Kyrie. But Duval is the best PG in a solid recruiting class. And he is a better distributor than most give him credit for. And he has the tools to be an amazing defender (arguably better than Allen. I'm not even going to mention Kennard when it comes to D...)

[CDu]

Whoa, let's slow down on the Kyrie hype. Duval is not Kyrie. Not even close. He's a good ball handler, but Kyrie is in a class by himself, or maybe a 2 person class with Steph Curry. Kyrie is also a WAY better outside shooter than Duval. The only thing Duval has on Kyrie is maybe a little strength and a bit better vertical. I can't even say he's a better finisher at the rim than Kyrie, because Kyrie is also amazing at that.

Just because we are liekly to get one of those guys back doesn't make them any less important . . . I think their leadership could be just as important as anything Duval brings to the table. I'm really tired of the "we lost this year because we didn't have a point guard" argument. Not saying you were one of those people, but there are quite a few of them. We beat the national freaking champions twice with no point guard. We did just fine. Could a point guard have helped? Maybe, but would a point guard have been more important than having Grayson or Luke? Hard to say. I think you still have to have one of those alpha dog scorers. Duval makes them better, but he's not more important than having one of them, in my opinion.

I agree. We did not lose this year because of a lack of PG. In fact, we had a top-10 offense that scored 81 points against the #3 defense in the country in what was essentially a road game. We struggled at times this season because of injuries, not because we lacked a PG.

And I also agree on Duval. If anything, he seems like he could be a Derrick Rose type of player: terrific athlete, good but not spectacular ballhandler, strong driver, not a great shooter and not a superlative passer (i.e., more of a scoring point guard than a passing point guard). I think he'll be really good. But I don't think he'll be as good as Tatum was this year or as good as Ingram was last year. I think he'll be better than Frank Jackson was this year.

[NM Duke Fan]

Duval is priority # one for me, and it is not even close. After that I can see valid talking points for various orders.

[kAzE]

Duval is priority # one for me, and it is not even close. After that I can see valid talking points for various orders.

This could be a case study in how perception of the guy we haven't seen is somehow better than the guys we've had. Could Duval be great? Maybe. You don't know that. Nobody knows that. Are Luke Kennard and Grayson Allen great? Heck yes.

There's almost zero chance Duval is better as a freshman than either of those guys next year. Maybe he's as good as De'Aaron Fox. Or maybe he's Derryck Thornton. Anyone who claims they know how good Duval will be next year is just full of it. I like my known quantity All-American guards more.

[duke09hms]

This could be a case study in how perception of the guy we haven't seen is somehow better than the guys we've had. Could Duval be great? Maybe. You don't know that. Nobody knows that. Are Luke Kennard and Grayson Allen great? Heck yes.

There's almost zero chance Duval is better as a freshman than either of those guys next year. Maybe he's as good as De'Aaron Fox. Or maybe he's Derryck Thornton. Anyone who claims they know how good Duval will be next year is just full of it. I like my known quantity All-American guards more.

Need to look at defense - Luke and Grayson are known negatives on the defensive end, especially Luke.
Could Duval be better on defense? Possibly, he seems to have all the physical tools like lateral quickness to stay in front of his man whereas we know Luke does not.

Unknown vs known negative on defense, that's we want Duval.

Oh, that and the PG skills too.

[NM Duke Fan]

Need to look at defense - Luke and Grayson are known negatives on the defensive end, especially Luke.
Could Duval be better on defense? Possibly, he seems to have all the physical tools like lateral quickness to stay in front of his man whereas we know Luke does not.

Unknown vs known negative on defense, that's we want Duval.

Oh, that and the PG skills too.

Nice, reasoned post, instead of an emotional reaction. Some of us old timers with decades of both playing experience and carefully observing the game really value a team having more of a "true" point guard. Including one with the inherent physical gifts like lateral quickness to stay in front of his man defensively. Like it or not, many years the best college teams indeed have that player. Neither Luke nor Allen fit that bill, and i am not convinced that either of them are going to take a great leap forward in those ways. I also hope that both of them make the best possible decisions for their own futures, and I am not convinced it is in the best interests of either one of them to come back, when looking at the overall picture. And yes, by the end of the year Duval if he comes has the potential to be an overall better and more important player, considering the overall needs of the team and the deficiencies it has recently had. Plenty of room for disagreement here too, when it can be done without attacking other posters emotionally.

[kAzE]

Nice, reasoned post, instead of an emotional reaction. Some of us old timers with decades of both playing experience and carefully observing the game really value a team having more of a "true" point guard. Including one with the inherent physical gifts like lateral quickness to stay in front of his man defensively. Like it or not, many years the best college teams indeed have that player. Neither Luke nor Allen fit that bill, and i am not convinced that either of them are going to take a great leap forward in those ways. I also hope that both of them make the best possible decisions for their own futures, and I am not convinced it is in the best interests of either one of them to come back, when looking at the overall picture. And yes, by the end of the year Duval if he comes has the potential to be an overall better and more important player, considering the overall needs of the team and the deficiencies it has recently had. Plenty of room for disagreement here too, when it can be done without attacking other posters emotionally.

Not sure who you're talking about. I don't attack posters, I attack posts. Especially ones that marginalize players who have made huge contributions to this basketball program in favor of uncommitted high school seniors who may or may not be great college basketball players.

In order for Trevon Duval to be as good or better than Luke or Grayson next year, he would need to be at least 2nd team all-american. You obviously think he can do that, and I just don't think he's that good. I think he's solid, but nowhere near the messiah that you seem to believe he is. This is a guy who just had 3 assists to 4 turnovers in an all-star game where his team scored 107 points . . . he might be a pure point guard, but he still has a LONG way to go.

You said:


Duval is priority # one for me, and it is not even close.

So I guess he's a lock for first team all-american, right? :rolleyes:

[CDu]

Nice, reasoned post, instead of an emotional reaction. Some of us old timers with decades of both playing experience and carefully observing the game really value a team having more of a "true" point guard. Including one with the inherent physical gifts like lateral quickness to stay in front of his man defensively. Like it or not, many years the best college teams indeed have that player. Neither Luke nor Allen fit that bill, and i am not convinced that either of them are going to take a great leap forward in those ways. I also hope that both of them make the best possible decisions for their own futures, and I am not convinced it is in the best interests of either one of them to come back, when looking at the overall picture. And yes, by the end of the year Duval if he comes has the potential to be an overall better and more important player, considering the overall needs of the team and the deficiencies it has recently had. Plenty of room for disagreement here too, when it can be done without attacking other posters emotionally.

I disagree a bit, on two counts:

1. The PG thing. Jon Scheyer was a very effective PG as a senior despite not being very quick and not having ever been a PG before stepping in (ineffectively) late as a junior. Furthermore, we had the #6 offense in the country this year and the #4 offense in the country last year without a PG. That clearly was not our problem. I understand some people prefer a team with a true PG, but that doesn't make it reality that you have to have a true PG to succeed offensively

2. The lateral quickness thing. Our best defensive player (and one of the best defenders in the country) this year was Matt Jones. He was a terrific on-ball defender. He is not at all laterally quick. What he is is extremely smart, extremely hard-working, and extremely prepared. Grayson Allen is MUCH quicker laterally than Jones, yet has not (to this point) been nearly the defender that Jones was. Last year, nobody on the team was quicker than Derryck Thornton. Yet he wasn't a very good defender last year. Same for Frank Jackson. Who is to say that Frank Jackson - with another year of development - won't be a substantially better defender than a freshman Duval?

I'm not saying we shouldn't get Duval. I want him to come to Duke. But I think some folks just seem to default to "didn't have a PG" or "didn't have a quick guy" as the problem, when that simply wasn't the issue with this year's team. We were plenty effective offensively. We had a bad game in a bad environment against a Final Four team in the tournament, and people have jumped off a ledge into how fatally flawed the team was.

[CDu]

No sure who you're talking about. I don't attack posters, I attack posts. Especially ones that marginalize players who have made huge contributions to this basketball program in favor of uncommitted high school seniors who may or may not be great college basketball players.

In order for Trevon Duval to be as good or better than Luke or Grayson next year, he would need to be at least 2nd team all-american. You obviously think he can do that, and I just don't think he's that good. I think he's solid, but nowhere near the messiah that you seem to believe he is. You said:



So I guess he's a lock for first team all-american, right? :rolleyes:

I won't go quite as aggressively on this (especially the last statement). But I agree with your sentiments. Is it possible for one of the freshmen to be an All-American next year? Sure. But it is highly unlikely. Anthony Davis is very rare. In fact, there has been just 1. People said Nerlens Noel was the next Anthony Davis. He wasn't. He was good, but not transcendent. I think Nerlens Noel is a pretty fair comp for Bamba. Bamba may or may not be a little better next year, but that's about where his skill set is. Duval COULD become the next Derrick Rose. But that's fairly unlikely as well. Rose was a rare combination of solid skills paired with unbelievable athleticism and fearlessness. Those type of guys don't grow on trees. And it is not like Duval has dominated at the national level. He was pretty lackluster in the McDonald's game, which is not a great sign for a guard.

Again, I would be ecstatic to get any of Bamba, Duval, and Knox. I just don't anticipate that any of them will be better than Kennard or a healthy Allen will be, as both of those guys are clear threats for First-Team All-American status.

[Oshima25]

1. Luke
1.5 Grayson
3. Tremont Waters
4. Bamba

I for one am ready for a year like this. Waters is short but very good, and at one point referred to Duke as his dream school before committing to Georgetown (a commitment he got out of after John Thompson III was fired). I'd love to see us get a guy like Waters who could play under Frank for a year or so and hopefully blossom into a veteran starter. Is anyone else a little jealous of the Yogi Ferrells and Frank Masons and (ugh) even Joel Berrys of the NCAA? We tend to have a couple veterans in the mix, but when those guys are point guards it seems to make a difference. Quinn counts, kind of. Plus, this gets Frank the year at PG that I assume he needs to ensure his future in the NBA. Duval looks like an absolutely incredible player, but I kind of prefer this approach this time.

I'm also wary of Knox. These freshmen capable of being "the guy" as playmakers (I'd count Austin, Kyrie, Jabari, Brandon, and Jayson) tend to make us a little predictable and stiff when things get close. The '15 team didn't have a guy like that - it had three, who played perfectly together. I'm concerned Knox is another guy who we'll depend on a little too much when the going gets tough, though obviously his talent is terrific. I think there's a chance we dodge a bullet if he ends up elsewhere. Meanwhile, Bamba would be awesome and seems like a great dude, but I'm curious to see what Bolden can do starting (and healthy).

Potential here would be: Frank, Luke, Grayson, Carter, Bamba/Bolden starting, with Waters, Trent, Bamba/Bolden, Vrankovic, Javin, Jack, and O'Connell on the bench. I for one think Vrankovic, Javin, and Jack can all play, and I'm happy with that rotation and depth.

[kAzE]

I disagree a bit, on two counts:
I'm not saying we shouldn't get Duval. I want him to come to Duke. But I think some folks just seem to default to "didn't have a PG" or "didn't have a quick guy" as the problem, when that simply wasn't the issue with this year's team. We were plenty effective offensively. We had a bad game in a bad environment against a Final Four team in the tournament, and people have jumped off a ledge into how fatally flawed the team was.

And to be clear, I want Duval, too. I think he would help us tremendously with pushing the ball up the floor in transition, and being a quicker and more athletic team. My rankings are right at the top of this thread:



1. Luke or Grayson
2. Duval
3. The other of Luke or Grayson
4. Knox
5. Bamba

I just think it's silly to say that "Duval is way more important than anyone, and it's not even close," when we have maybe 2 of the top 10-15 players in college basketball already in Grayson and Luke.

[elvis14]

Wish list:

1) Grayson Allen returns
2) Duvall comes to Duke
3) Knox - just because more talent is better
4) Bamba - just because more talent is better
5) Cheaters get hammered by NCAA
6) All our guys get healthy

I could be wrong but I think Luke is NBA bound, otherwise he would have been #2.
It's too late for #5 in many respects but I still want it really badly.

[Wander]

Need to look at defense - Luke and Grayson are known negatives on the defensive end, especially Luke.
Could Duval be better on defense? Possibly, he seems to have all the physical tools like lateral quickness to stay in front of his man whereas we know Luke does not.

Unknown vs known negative on defense, that's we want Duval.


I agree with the spirit, but I think you're discounting that players can improve greatly on defense, even those that are straight up bad defenders in their early years. Off the top of my head, JJ Redick, Kyle Singler, and Quinn Cook are recent Duke players who made very large strides on defense during their time at Duke. So I wouldn't say that a junior Kennard or a senior Allen is a "known" negative on defense.

[CDu]

I agree with the spirit, but I think you're discounting that players can improve greatly on defense, even those that are straight up bad defenders in their early years. Off the top of my head, JJ Redick, Kyle Singler, and Quinn Cook are recent Duke players who made very large strides on defense during their time at Duke. So I wouldn't say that a junior Kennard or a senior Allen is a "known" negative on defense.

I agree. I have my doubts about Kennard, but I could absolutely see Allen becoming a good defender next year. For one thing, he has the desire. For another, he has the athletic attributes to do it. And if he returns as a senior, I'm sure Coach K is going to really push him to demonstrate it on the defensive end.

Now, it's certainly possible Kennard could improve defensively too. Redick is an example of a guy who was a very poor defender as a freshman and sophomore who got better each year after that. So there's no reason Kennard couldn't do the same. I just think that, of the two, Allen would seem the more likely candidate to emerge as a good defender if he returned.

[azzefkram]

1a. Duval
1b. Knox
2. Bamba

We really don't have anyone on the current roster that profile like Knox or Duval (though we are quite a bit closer with Duval). Bonus points for keeping Knox away from the bad guys. While I'd love to see Bamba suit up for us next year I just don't see it happening with both Carter and Bolden on the roster. I am assuming (hopefully not foolishly) that one of Luke or Grayson will return.

[Troublemaker]

I'm going to assume this game is being played serially, i.e. once you name your #1, then he is on your roster when you decide on your #2, etc.

1. Duval - He would be my #1 pick if analyzed unemotionally as well. But, man, I just want to root for a point guard. We're supposed to be this recruiting juggernaut... take care of the most important position in basketball, please! I feel like a hypothetical Bama or OSU football fan who has to always root for QBs that were converted from RB. And yes, having a point guard helps on defense as well. The best player to guard a PG is probably another PG; love Matt Jones' defense on the wing as everyone knows, but he was an average PG defender the past couple of seasons.

1B. Frank Jackson - I don't like the jinx of just assuming that Frank is back, although I, too, expect him back. The dream is to pair Duval with Frank and have one of the quickest backcourts in the country. Combine it with the shotblocking of Carter and Bolden in the frontcourt, and if Coach K can't carve out a top-25 defense, then his scheme really IS faulty and/or unable to be learned by young players. I'm approaching some of this from the standpoint of a scientific experiment. Give Coach K a lot of youth but health (knock on wood) and quickness and length, and see if Duke can play good defense next season. It'd be a clean data point either way.

2. Knox - Gotta give Coach K his stretch-4 option, especially since Duval is not a good shooter. There are a couple of Duke fans I know in real life who are rooting against Duke landing Knox so Coach K will be "forced" to play big. Bad move. I mean, if you believe in Coach K -- and I suppose that's the problem with them -- then give him the personnel he likes to have when molding a team. Duke has had sooooo much success over the years with the versatile 4. And there will always be opponents like UVA against whom it makes sense to play a stretch-4.

3. Grayson - Senior leader. Redemption. Call me a masochist but I actually look forward to seeing if Grayson can control his emotions and become a good leader next season. I want his final year at Duke to be different from the tripgate, suspension, injury bug season it was this year. I chose him over Luke because of the redemption factor, defense, and draft stock. And with Bamba, we have three guys who can play center already in Bolden, Carter, and Vrank. I love Bamba's potential and think he'll be awesome, but it would seem like over-recruiting at this point to sign him.

[JeffNof]

1. Duval - we need a pg who can guard other pg's
2. Giles gets reality check that NBA stock is low and returns
3. Kennard - team needs an experienced leader plus he can score a little
4. Allen - image redemption tour
5. Knox - we need SF
6. NCAA finally steps up and removes at least 1 of Roy's trophies

[chriso]

I disagree a bit, on two counts:

1. The PG thing. Jon Scheyer was a very effective PG as a senior despite not being very quick and not having ever been a PG before stepping in (ineffectively) late as a junior. Furthermore, we had the #6 offense in the country this year and the #4 offense in the country last year without a PG. That clearly was not our problem. I understand some people prefer a team with a true PG, but that doesn't make it reality that you have to have a true PG to succeed offensively

2. The lateral quickness thing. Our best defensive player (and one of the best defenders in the country) this year was Matt Jones. He was a terrific on-ball defender. He is not at all laterally quick. What he is is extremely smart, extremely hard-working, and extremely prepared. Grayson Allen is MUCH quicker laterally than Jones, yet has not (to this point) been nearly the defender that Jones was. Last year, nobody on the team was quicker than Derryck Thornton. Yet he wasn't a very good defender last year. Same for Frank Jackson. Who is to say that Frank Jackson - with another year of development - won't be a substantially better defender than a freshman Duval?

I'm not saying we shouldn't get Duval. I want him to come to Duke. But I think some folks just seem to default to "didn't have a PG" or "didn't have a quick guy" as the problem, when that simply wasn't the issue with this year's team. We were plenty effective offensively. We had a bad game in a bad environment against a Final Four team in the tournament, and people have jumped off a ledge into how fatally flawed the team was.

Scheyer was kind of the exception to the rule, in my opinion, as far as not being a true point guard. He almost never turned the ball over and was very smart in getting good shots for himself and his teammates. And he was a senior when he ran the team. (I realize Grayson would be as well). And he was paired with Nolan, who was a very good ball handler. I think if we got Duval you would see Allen and Kennard (I hope) and Jackson become more efficient. Allen did a great job last year but I think he would better served at the two. Hopefully we get to find out next year. :)

[ncexnyc]

Grayson and Luke.

Two quality players that have already been in the system seem like a better situation than starting from day one again.

[lotusland]

Firstly, I'm not saying we lost because we had no PG. I've been harping that our backcourt D sucked and that's why we lost.

Secondly, you hit the nail on the head and what I've been arguing: we have to have ONE alpha dog scorer. Two is great. But one is necessary. And given there are TWO decisions on alpha dog scorers and only ONE PG, I'm going with Duval being more important than EITHER Kennard or Allen but not the collective Kennard/Allen.

Thirdly, I don't think Duval is Kyrie. But Duval is the best PG in a solid recruiting class. And he is a better distributor than most give him credit for. And he has the tools to be an amazing defender (arguably better than Allen. I'm not even going to mention Kennard when it comes to D...)

I don't think freshman Jason Williams was above Grayson and Luke. Duvall? That's insane. What's he going to do that is so vital? With Grayson and Kennard Duke is not going to struggle scoring. Maybe he makes a couple of nice passes that lead to scores but clanks a couple of threes Grayson would have canned. We have enough Freshmen. We need some vets. Also I know this is heresy on this board but Duke was actually better after Kyrie went down with Nolan running the show. People forget how diminished Nolan was on that team early on with Kyrie dominating the ball. Nolan was having a POY year when Kyrie came back and Duke was worse. Kyrie got his but Nolan was diminished again. Kyrie played zero defense and Nolan was a stone cold stud on D. Sorry but Nolan was more important to that team and GA is more important to next year's team.

[lotusland]

Need to look at defense - Luke and Grayson are known negatives on the defensive end, especially Luke.
Could Duval be better on defense? Possibly, he seems to have all the physical tools like lateral quickness to stay in front of his man whereas we know Luke does not.

Unknown vs known negative on defense, that's we want Duval.

Oh, that and the PG skills too.

Trying to think of a freshman Duke PG who played great D from the jump....OK I give up.

[lotusland]

1. Grayson and Luke
2. Knox
3. Duvall



Enjoy a year in Lexington Mr. Bamba our front court is full.

[Matches]

Trying to think of a freshman Duke PG who played great D from the jump...OK I give up.

Duhon, to the extent he played PG. Amaker.

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

Duhon, to the extent he played PG. Amaker.

Amaker was my first thought.

[elvis14]

Wish list:

1) Grayson Allen returns
2) Duvall comes to Duke
3) Knox - just because more talent is better
4) Bamba - just because more talent is better
5) Cheaters get hammered by NCAA
6) All our guys get healthy

I could be wrong but I think Luke is NBA bound, otherwise he would have been #2.
It's too late for #5 in many respects but I still want it really badly.

Called it (sometimes it's not a good thing when I'm right)

[DukeTrinity11]

With Luke off to the NBA, I'm updating my wishlist:

1. Duval
2. Allen
3. Bamba
4. Knox

[CDu]

With Luke off to the NBA, I'm updating my wishlist:

1. Duval
2. Allen
3. Bamba
4. Knox

1. Allen
2. Duval
3. Knox
4. Bamba

[devildeac]

Called it (sometimes it's not a good thing when I'm right)

Mrs. elvis has pointed out to me several times what a rarity that is. :rolleyes:

;)

[OZZIE4DUKE]

My wish for next year is for the NBA to go on strike and stay on strike indefinitely. http://www.crazietalk.net/ourhouse/images/smilies/devil9f.gif

[CarmenWallaceWade]

With Luke off to the NBA, I'm updating my wishlist:

1. Duval
2. Allen
3. Bamba
4. Knox

Same.

Duval = creator / defender.
Allen = LEADER / slasher / shooter.
Bamba = dominant defender.
Knox = length / versatility.

Could easily switch Bamba and Knox, but the fact that we couldn't guard most teams inside this year leaves me concerned that will be another big weakness with next year's group. Defense, low post presence, shooting and point guard play. Might work out.

[fraggler]

Now that Luke is gone, I'd put Allen at the top of my list. Duval, then Knox. Without Allen, we lose any semblance of experience, leadership, and most importantly, shooting. Frank is OK, but who else is going to consistently hit 3s? Not sold on Trent yet.

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

Should I start my list now?

[DukieInKansas]

Just to make it interesting, my wishlist for the Duke Offseason is that the NCAA COI finally gets off its butt and hands down some form of punishment to unc.

eta - oh, maybe you meant my wishlist for Duke during the offseason. I will let smarter minds than mine answer that question.

[duke09hms]

Trying to think of a freshman Duke PG who played great D from the jump...OK I give up.

Duhon, Amaker, Kyrie, yes Kyrie was a great defender pre-injury. Remember how those senior PG stars at K-state and MSU couldn't get anything going on him in our marquee early season matchups? Jacob Pullen and Kalin Lucas I think they were.
Then he got injured and was out of sync when he came back in the tourney.

Thornton was also a plus defender last year.

Anyway, now Grayson coming back is #1 by far. Until he got injured all this year, I remember him being a solid defender.

[lotusland]

Same.

Duval = creator / defender.
Allen = LEADER / slasher / shooter.
Bamba = dominant defender.
Knox = length / versatility.

Could easily switch Bamba and Knox, but the fact that we couldn't guard most teams inside this year leaves me concerned that will be another big weakness with next year's group. Defense, low post presence, shooting and point guard play. Might work out.

Bamba before Knox even though we already have 2 bigs but no 3/4 in the Hood, Tatum, Winslow mold and no Luke scoring and rebounding from the 3 spot?

[lotusland]

Duhon, Amaker, Kyrie, yes Kyrie was a great defender pre-injury. Remember how those senior PG stars at K-state and MSU couldn't get anything going on him in our marquee early season matchups? Jacob Pullen and Kalin Lucas I think they were.
Then he got injured and was out of sync when he came back in the tourney.

Thornton was also a plus defender last year.

Anyway, now Grayson coming back is #1 by far. Until he got injured all this year, I remember him being a solid defender.

First time I've read Kyrie and great defender together. Probably will be the last. As a freshman Duhon was an adequate defender - good for a freshman - but not a great defender. Thornton also doesn't qualify unless you mean Tyler. Granted it will be a definite plus if Duvall commits and defends as well as freshman Duhon or the Thornton brothers. Kyrie or Tyus D would not be a plus.

[Waynne]

At this point the most important question is whether Grayson returns. We need his experience, leadership and ability to score. Without him we will be a very young team; Frank would be our most seasoned player. The return of Allen is at the top of my wishlist.

[duke09hms]

First time I've read Kyrie and great defender together. Probably will be the last. As a freshman Duhon was an adequate defender - good for a freshman - but not a great defender. Thornton also doesn't qualify unless you mean Tyler. Granted it will be a definite plus if Duvall commits and defends as well as freshman Duhon or the Thornton brothers. Kyrie or Tyus D would not be a plus.

You're letting Kyrie's NBA defense cloud your recollection of him. He shut down some of the best PGs in the country during his first 11 games.

For our defense to improve, we'd just need our new guard's defense to be better than Luke's, and there have been several freshman PGs at Duke who would meet that admittedly low bar.

And yes, Grayson coming back would take our team to another level, most important decision to come.

[elvis14]

Mrs. elvis has pointed out to me several times what a rarity that is. :rolleyes:

;)

As usual, she's right!

[elvis14]

You're letting Kyrie's NBA defense cloud your recollection of him. He shut down some of the best PGs in the country during his first 11 games.

For our defense to improve, we'd just need our new guard's defense to be better than Luke's, and there have been several freshman PGs at Duke who would meet that admittedly low bar.

And yes, Grayson coming back would take our team to another level, most important decision to come.

I remember what duke09hms remembers. When Kyrie was playing terrible defense in the NBA, I was really surprised because he had been shutting guys down before he was injured.

[heyman25]

Trevon Duval with a good grad student transfer guard. Kevin Knox. Don't mind if Grayson stays, but can understand why he may play pro instead. I actually see him in Europe or China,and not the NBA. A completely healthy team. I would like to see Jack White,Justin Robinson and Javin DeLaurier become contributing players as well as Antonio Vrankovic. I think Trent will have a season like Jayson Tatum.Like Duke to be able to play Carter and Bolden together at times during game.Frank Jackson may be the main man with a year's experience. I have learned from this season to lower expectations.

[heyman25]

This may be greedy,but would like the 9'6" reach of Mohammed Bamba on Duke. I just think if Bolden and Carter reach their potential, Bamba will not be all that critical to our team. He likely will be a first year star where ever he enrolls.Jackson, Trent Carter Bolden and Duval would be a stellar starting lineup.White, DeLaurier ,Robinson ,O'Connell, and Vrankovic off the bench. That is why adding a grad transfer or perhaps a European discovery would be a benefit.

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

Can we pick up a Plumlee?

[chriso]

At this point the most important question is whether Grayson returns. We need his experience, leadership and ability to score. Without him we will be a very young team; Frank would be our most seasoned player. The return of Allen is at the top of my wishlist.

For Tatum to return. Wait. For Giles to return. Darn. For Chase to give us leadership. Doh! For Kennard to stay. Oops. Please Grayson come back. And Bolden returning is HUGE. Bolden and Jackson are a nice core but I'd feel a lot better with Grayson as the glue. As for freshmen Duval for sure.

[CDu]

For Tatum to return. Wait. For Giles to return. Darn. For Chase to give us leadership. Doh! For Kennard to stay. Oops. Please Grayson come back. And Bolden returning is HUGE. Bolden and Jackson are a nice core but I'd feel a lot better with Grayson as the glue. As for freshmen Duval for sure.

Early on, I felt that keeping one of Giles/Bolden and one of Kennard/Allen to go along with Jackson. We are an Allen return away from making that happen.

If Allen comes back, I like next year's team a lot. If Allen comes back AND we add Duval, I love our team.

[flyingdutchdevil]

Early on, I felt that keeping one of Giles/Bolden and one of Kennard/Allen to go along with Jackson. We are an Allen return away from making that happen.

If Allen comes back, I like next year's team a lot. If Allen comes back AND we add Duval, I love our team.

Yup. A backcourt of Duval, Allen, Jackson, and Trent is offensively versatile and has the POTENTIAL to be really good defensively. Again, POTENTIAL is the key term because we still have no idea if Coach K can teach defense to OADs (early data not promising).

If we get Knox AND Duval, that's arguably as versatile a team as you can get: real PG, two combo guards, a defensive wing, a stretch 4, an offensive big man, a giant of a human being...I'll take it.

[MrPoon]

If we get the team most seem to think is coming, Duval and Knox (yeah, we all know until they are signed). That has the maketing of a fantastic team. Grayson or not.
Duval and Grayson, still fantastic.
Yeah this team will need to play defense. But I think that is being over stated (just a bit) because this team last year and the year before struggled with D. But each team has a different story. The hype of last years team was built around it as a defensive and versitle offense. Injuries changed all of that. You can't teach AAU guys defense when they aren't' playing and when they have different teams on the floor each night. Giles healthy would be a great, not good, defender. We just never had the chance to see it.

If this team (as proposed here) comes together, I am ecstatic about its possibilities and I refuse to be jaded by our recent, injury plagued season. OAD yada yada, I'm stoked if this comes true. And I'm willing to put my emotions on my sleeve again and be wrong, again.

[Kedsy]

I want to present an alternative theory. Alternative, that is, to the most likely scenario -- that Duke in 2017-18 will look just like the past several seasons, with one inside player, one NBA SF playing PF, and three scoring wings. Because if you accept the most likely version, then obviously the top needs are Allen, Duval, and Knox, in some order (the exact order not really being relevant because to be a national championship contender with that style, we likely need all three and definitely need two of them).

The alternative in my mind would be to embrace the "Kentucky-style" roster that we're kind of going to have anyway, since it looks like our roster will have at most one upperclassman in the rotation. People sometimes say, "how come Calipari gets his freshman-filled rosters to play defense and Duke can't?" Seems to me, the answer is players like Bamba, which Kentucky almost always seems to have (though not so much this past season, I guess). I've heard lots of people say how Coach K is so adaptable to his roster, but why then are they so unwilling to believe he'd adapt if his roster was best suited to playing two bigs at a time? If our interior rotation is Carter/Bolden/Bamba, assuming Carter is mobile enough to defend college PFs, that's the frontcourt of a potentially great defensive team, because even if opposing guards zip by our perimeter defenders we'd have at least one guy waiting for them who can practically touch the rim without jumping.

And yes, I understand the argument that freshman bigs have defensive troubles at Duke, but I think by-and-large that's because we've recruited offensive-minded bigs. Bamba is, by all accounts, primarily a defensive player at this stage in his development, perhaps similar to Shelden Williams. Maybe better, since Shelden was somewhat of a fouling machine his freshman year (6.4 fouls per 40). But he also had 12.3 rebounds per 40 and 3.3 blocks per 40 -- even if all we got from Bamba was that, we'd probably show better D than we have the past couple years.

I can't imagine a rotation with no upperclassmen is a good thing, so I'll go with Grayson first, but after that I think maybe Mo Bamba should be next on that list, although obviously I want all four.

Finally, and I've said this before, but I still don't get why people say we can't get Bamba because our frontcourt is crowded, but Kentucky can get Bamba despite their frontcourt being even more crowded. But even more than that, I don't get why everyone says Coach K will stick to a predetermined system no matter what, even if his personnel dictates he do otherwise, when history suggests he's much more adaptable than that.

[kAzE]

Finally, and I've said this before, but I still don't get why people say we can't get Bamba because our frontcourt is crowded, but Kentucky can get Bamba despite their frontcourt being even more crowded. But even more than that, I don't get why everyone says Coach K will stick to a predetermined system no matter what, even if his personnel dictates he do otherwise, when history suggests he's much more adaptable than that.

I'll play devil's advocate for you (I'm also really hoping we get Bamba, though not necessarily more than those other 2 recruits, and definitely not more than Grayson Allen):

I think this is true of positional strategy, but unfortunately, not rotational strategy. Coach K is willing to put the 5 players on the floor who are best suited to help us win, regardless of position, but he's not as willing to put many more players on the floor beyond those 5. He both flexible and dogmatic at the same time. I don't know what any of these recruits are thinking, but this has to enter their mind at least a little bit when they are considering schools, especially guys who are probably only going to be around for 1 year. 5 star guys want to play.

Bamba looks like a guy who should be a starter for just about any team, (and I don't know what any of these recruits is really thinking) but he did just see two top-10 5 star big men barely crack the rotation for Duke last year, and another 5 star big man transfer. I don't think the crowded front court on either team scares him, but Cal has had more success with 1 and done big men, you gotta give him that. We had an opportunity to dispel that myth last year, but whether it was because of injury or whatever the case may be, our big men did not live up to the hype.

And on the other hand, UK has been pumping out all-star OAD big men for years. And yes, I know some of them didn't pan out, but who remembers those guys? Karl Towns, Anthony Davis, and Boogies Cousins are the guys that these high school kids see dominating in the NBA. They aren't necessarily modeling their game after Jah Okafor or Mason Plumlee (maybe they are, but probably not). That's the only reason I see him as a UK lean. But I'm still hoping he surprises us and comes to Durham.

[lotusland]

I want to present an alternative theory. Alternative, that is, to the most likely scenario -- that Duke in 2017-18 will look just like the past several seasons, with one inside player, one NBA SF playing PF, and three scoring wings. Because if you accept the most likely version, then obviously the top needs are Allen, Duval, and Knox, in some order (the exact order not really being relevant because to be a national championship contender with that style, we likely need all three and definitely need two of them).

The alternative in my mind would be to embrace the "Kentucky-style" roster that we're kind of going to have anyway, since it looks like our roster will have at most one upperclassman in the rotation. People sometimes say, "how come Calipari gets his freshman-filled rosters to play defense and Duke can't?" Seems to me, the answer is players like Bamba, which Kentucky almost always seems to have (though not so much this past season, I guess). I've heard lots of people say how Coach K is so adaptable to his roster, but why then are they so unwilling to believe he'd adapt if his roster was best suited to playing two bigs at a time? If our interior rotation is Carter/Bolden/Bamba, assuming Carter is mobile enough to defend college PFs, that's the frontcourt of a potentially great defensive team, because even if opposing guards zip by our perimeter defenders we'd have at least one guy waiting for them who can practically touch the rim without jumping.

And yes, I understand the argument that freshman bigs have defensive troubles at Duke, but I think by-and-large that's because we've recruited offensive-minded bigs. Bamba is, by all accounts, primarily a defensive player at this stage in his development, perhaps similar to Shelden Williams. Maybe better, since Shelden was somewhat of a fouling machine his freshman year (6.4 fouls per 40). But he also had 12.3 rebounds per 40 and 3.3 blocks per 40 -- even if all we got from Bamba was that, we'd probably show better D than we have the past couple years.

I can't imagine a rotation with no upperclassmen is a good thing, so I'll go with Grayson first, but after that I think maybe Mo Bamba should be next on that list, although obviously I want all four.

Finally, and I've said this before, but I still don't get why people say we can't get Bamba because our frontcourt is crowded, but Kentucky can get Bamba despite their frontcourt being even more crowded. But even more than that, I don't get why everyone says Coach K will stick to a predetermined system no matter what, even if his personnel dictates he do otherwise, when history suggests he's much more adaptable than that.

Generally speaking Duke freshmen "true" bigs foul a lot and don't defend particularly well. I like a more traditional lineup with 2 bigs but I don't think two freshman is likely to work well unless K comes up with a new scheme. We didn't see much of Bolden and Giles together thankfully. The veteran bigs and 3/4 guys like Ingram, Winslow and Tatum seem to fare better. Haven't seen Knox play but I'd suspect he'll play a lot at the 4 spot if we get him. If we get Bamba but not Knox maybe K plays 2 true bigs out of necessity. We already have a Vrank as a third true big. He played ahead of Bolden and Jeter at time this year. I just don't see Bamba as a need above Duvall and Knox. I'd rather Vrank get some minutes and be ready to contribute as a senior next year(and not transfer). With or without Grayson, Duke needs another shooter but another freshman center is not need imo.

[Kedsy]

Generally speaking Duke freshmen "true" bigs foul a lot and don't defend particularly well. I like a more traditional lineup with 2 bigs but I don't think two freshman is likely to work well unless K comes up with a new scheme. We didn't see much of Bolden and Giles together thankfully. The veteran bigs and 3/4 guys like Ingram, Winslow and Tatum seem to fare better. Haven't seen Knox play but I'd suspect he'll play a lot at the 4 spot if we get him.

Well, we haven't had that many "true" bigs over the years, but Shelden Williams, Elton Brand, and Josh McRoberts were all "true" bigs who defended pretty well as freshmen in the not-too-distant past. I don't think it's the nature of the species as much as it is the individual recruited player. Jahlil Okafor, for example, was reputed to be so poor at defense as a high schooler that his coach had to hide him in a zone, despite the fact that he was probably much bigger than most people he would have had to defend. Mohamed Bamba, on the other hand, is almost universally praised for his defense (he's generally considered "raw" on offense, but despite that is the #3 prospect in high school basketball, which suggests to me that his defense must be something special).

I believe where Kevin Knox plays (if we get him) will depend on who else ends up on the roster. If our fourth and fifth wing options are Alex O'Connell and Jack White, then my guess is Knox spends most of his time on the wing. If we end up with Grayson Allen, Frank Jackson, Trevon Duval, and Gary Trent on the wing and don't get Bamba, then I agree with you that Knox may play a lot of PF. If we end up with those four wings and we do get Bamba, then I think it's unclear where Knox might play -- it would depend on which player (e.g., Trent, Carter, Bolden, Bamba, Knox) is least ready to play big minutes.


If we get Bamba but not Knox maybe K plays 2 true bigs out of necessity.

I doubt it will be out of "necessity" so much as it would be what Coach K wants to do. He already has Carter; if he's still recruiting Bamba (which he appears to still be doing) that means he probably plans on playing them both. And supposedly, Coach was "recruiting" Marques Bolden to stay, which may have been insurance in case Bamba decided to go elsewhere, or may signal a potential willingness to play all three as a big man rotation. It may not work out if one or more of them get injured or aren't ready to play big rotation minutes, but if Coach K is recruiting all those guys, my guess is, at least right now, he intends to play them all if he has them.


We already have a Vrank as a third true big. He played ahead of Bolden and Jeter at time this year. I just don't see Bamba as a need above Duvall and Knox. I'd rather Vrank get some minutes and be ready to contribute as a senior next year(and not transfer). With or without Grayson, Duke needs another shooter but another freshman center is not need imo.

Antonio Vrankovic has shown himself to be adequate, but (a) he isn't anywhere close to the plus-plus defender that Bamba is reputed to be; (b) I doubt Marques agreed to stay at Duke if he thought Antonio was going to play ahead of him; and (c) I can't imagine Antonio staying for his junior year and then transferring before his senior year (unless he manages to graduate in three years, but I haven't heard he was working on anything like that). He wasn't very highly rated out of high school, and based on what was said at the time he was recruited, it sounded like Antonio knew then that he probably wasn't going to play big minutes at Duke his first few years, and maybe not ever. Some players aren't satisfied with that, but others might be. If Antonio's expectations were properly set, I don't know why you think he might transfer if he doesn't see a lot of minutes next year.

And besides, if there is an opening for our third big (i.e., if neither Bamba nor Knox come to Duke), I suspect Javin DeLaurier will get first shot at being the third big, rather than Vrankovic.

[SoCalDukeFan]

One - that someone, maybe Grayson, comes back who is a real LEADER.

Two- that I live my life without obsessing on Duke basketball.

SoCal

[kAzE]

One - that someone, maybe Grayson, comes back who is a real LEADER.

Two- that I live my life without obsessing on Duke basketball.

SoCal

You're in the wrong place for that. :p

[wavedukefan70s]

That we can retain grayson and pick up what we need to evolve into a top 7 team.
Oh yeah and just for a afterthought.
I hope every unc fan that supported the gamecocks in greenville stubs thier baby toe painfully.yes im still sour about that.

[elvis14]

Wish list:

1) Grayson Allen returns
2) Duvall comes to Duke
3) Knox - just because more talent is better
4) Bamba - just because more talent is better
5) Cheaters get hammered by NCAA
6) All our guys get healthy

I could be wrong but I think Luke is NBA bound, otherwise he would have been #2.
It's too late for #5 in many respects but I still want it really badly.

I haven't looked at other people's wish list but so far mine is off to a great start, as my #1 wish has been granted!