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Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15
04-02-2017, 10:13 PM
According to Adam Rowe on Twitter, Bolden to transfer. Adios, amigo.

Dukehky
04-02-2017, 10:13 PM
It has been confirmed by our guys at 247 that Bolden is transferring, likely to either TCU, SMU, or Texas.

I don't have much nice to say about this one... so, next move. Bamba sure would be nice.

brlftz
04-02-2017, 10:17 PM
Bamba watch now on high alert

YmoBeThere
04-02-2017, 10:23 PM
Not understanding the hate. I hope he finds happiness wherever he goes.

CarmenWallaceWade
04-02-2017, 10:26 PM
Wow. Hate to hear this. Best of luck to him.

Tappan Zee Devil
04-02-2017, 10:28 PM
Not understanding the hate. I hope he finds happiness wherever he goes.

Where do you see hate?

Dukehky
04-02-2017, 10:28 PM
Not understanding the hate. I hope he finds happiness wherever he goes.

I don't know about hate. I don't understand this decision at all. Like I said, I hope he does well.

hallcity
04-02-2017, 10:28 PM
Chronicle reporting it.
http://chron.it/2orgAgU

YmoBeThere
04-02-2017, 10:29 PM
Where do you see hate?

Some posts have already been redacted.

Atlanta Duke
04-02-2017, 10:30 PM
Not understanding the hate. I hope he finds happiness wherever he goes.

Agreed - it's nothing personal - it's strictly business

dyedwab
04-02-2017, 10:34 PM
Agreed - it's nothing personal - it's strictly business

Here's the thing for me about transfers. It's not that I wish him ill, or anything. it's just that I cease to care. They no longer exist as anything other than one of the myriad good Division 1 college basketball players.

So, like I said, I'm neither happy nor sad for him. I don't have anything against him. But to the extent I care, it's about the Duke Basketball program not the individual player.

Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15
04-02-2017, 10:34 PM
No hate here. Loved his potential, hope he finds his happiness.

CDu
04-02-2017, 10:35 PM
Sad, but not shocking. Things just didn't seem to work out for him this year. Hope he finds what he's looking for wherever he goes.

Here's hoping that either:
1) we get Bamba;
2) Vrankovic and DeLaurier are ready to step up; or
3) both (1) and (2)

DinoDuke
04-02-2017, 10:40 PM
SO does this season officially become number 1 for most people lost in the offseason? Yikes.

Dev11
04-02-2017, 10:44 PM
Sad, but not shocking. Things just didn't seem to work out for him this year. Hope he finds what he's looking for wherever he goes.

Here's hoping that either:
1) we get Bamba;
2) Vrankovic and DeLaurier are ready to step up; or
3) both (1) and (2)

I'm just surprised that things went so poorly for him this year that he thinks he now needs 2 more years of college. From what we know, injuries pretty much robbed him of the whole season, even if he was technically healthy enough to play for some of it. Was his supposed draft really that shaky that he couldn't recover it next year?

It seems like he got an unlucky draw this year. Hopefully things improve for him at his next stop.

AFL
04-02-2017, 10:44 PM
3 transfers announced in just the last 2 weeks, and all 3 are big men. Jefferson graduates, Giles enters the NBA Draft, and Jeter, Obi, and Marques all transferring. Who's gonna play the 5-spot in the middle next year? We better hope we get Bamba. And to think that Marques Bolden was expected to be a one-and-done player at the start of the season. I do wish him the best in his future endeavors.

Lauderdevil
04-02-2017, 10:46 PM
Sad, but not shocking.

What's surprising, if not shocking: Bolden hoped to be a one-and-done. Now he's got to sit out a year and then play another season for someone else, meaning he'll be at least three years in. His fastest path to the NBA was to come back to Duke and play reasonably well next year.

Dukehky
04-02-2017, 10:46 PM
According to Adam Rowe, the decision has not been officially made. The coaches have not been told he's transferring. That is still what is expected to happen, but he's not officially gone.

Would be really weird to come back at this point. Chronicle reported it already too.

sbroc012
04-02-2017, 10:51 PM
Just seems like transferring is taking the easy way out in today's game. Yea your freshmen year didn't pan out perfectly, lace em up get better in the off-season and play next year. Transfers across the board are becoming too frequent in college ball. Kind of disheartening.

hallcity
04-02-2017, 10:56 PM
Chronicle walking it back some. Who knows?
http://chron.it/2orgAgU

53n206
04-02-2017, 10:58 PM
Simply don't get it. Injury kept him from playing his best, and now he wants to move in order to show his best. Simply don't get it. Anyway, best to him. Happy that he gave it a shot at Duke.

sagegrouse
04-02-2017, 10:59 PM
Chronicle walking it back some. Who knows?
http://chron.it/2orgAgU

Mebbe our Academic All-ACC will reconsider. C'mon, Chase. You know you love Duke.

devildeac
04-02-2017, 11:01 PM
It's over. :rolleyes:

YmoBeThere
04-02-2017, 11:01 PM
Chronicle walking it back some. Who knows?
http://chron.it/2orgAgU

Irresponsible! Of course we knew given his situation that the thought of transferring would cross his mind.

Heaven's Guardian
04-02-2017, 11:04 PM
Can he and Carter play together? I'm not sure that they can, and it makes sense that Marques is worried about playing time next season as well. Obviously I think we'd all like him to stay and do well at Duke, but he clearly wasn't coming in expecting to stay for multiple seasons, and he might not average even ten minutes next year if he decides to return. Javin looks like our only returning big who can guard the perimeter, and unless we miss on both Knox and Bamba, I don't think K will play two pure interior players at once.

rsvman
04-02-2017, 11:10 PM
Wow. At a loss. I thought the question with Bolden was go pro versus come back. This is mind blowing.

Troublemaker
04-02-2017, 11:13 PM
According to Adam Rowe, the decision has not been officially made. The coaches have not been told he's transferring. That is still what is expected to happen, but he's not officially gone.

Would be really weird to come back at this point. Chronicle reported it already too.

Lame. The rush to get the scoop can be very costly sometimes. They should've let it play out.


Chronicle walking it back some. Who knows?
http://chron.it/2orgAgU

The Chronicle isn't reporting anything on their own. They're just referencing 247 and some random twitter account.


What's surprising, if not shocking: Bolden hoped to be a one-and-done. Now he's got to sit out a year and then play another season for someone else, meaning he'll be at least three years in. His fastest path to the NBA was to come back to Duke and play reasonably well next year.

If he ultimately decides to leave, this is what will burn. He would rather sit out a year and play elsewhere than take the next step at Duke next season and probably start his junior year.


3 transfers announced in just the last 2 weeks, and all 3 are big men. Jefferson graduates, Giles enters the NBA Draft, and Jeter, Obi, and Marques all transferring. Who's gonna play the 5-spot in the middle next year? We better hope we get Bamba. And to think that Marques Bolden was expected to be a one-and-done player at the start of the season. I do wish him the best in his future endeavors.

While I'm rooting hard for Bamba, I'd be seriously fine with a worst-case scenario of a frontcourt of Carter, Vrankovic, DeLaurier, and White. Hopefully Knox could be added to that, but we don't need to have 4 or 5 McDonald's big men. I am ready to root for Vrank, Javin, and Jack. Seriously. (But odds are pretty good we will be able to add to the roster).

Chicago 1995
04-02-2017, 11:15 PM
What's surprising, if not shocking: Bolden hoped to be a one-and-done. Now he's got to sit out a year and then play another season for someone else, meaning he'll be at least three years in. His fastest path to the NBA was to come back to Duke and play reasonably well next year.

Why would Bolden think he'll play next year? We had a tremendous need at his specific position this year, and Bolden's time dwindled as the season went on. He couldn't or wan't given a chance to play through his mistakes this year. That's not going to happen next year.

If this comes to pass, it's just another way our short rotation hurt us.

chriso
04-02-2017, 11:18 PM
Wow. At a loss. I thought the question with Bolden was go pro versus come back. This is mind blowing.

I've tried to be optimistic but the hits keep coming. Please Luke or Grayson come back. :( I wish Bolden the best. Will we have no seniors or juniors? One can only hope.....

rsvman
04-02-2017, 11:18 PM
Another concern I have is whether all these guys leaving will have a downstream negative effect on recruits who are/were considering coming to Duke. First, we don't make the sweet sixteen, and then there's a mass exodus.
Does a potential recruit look at that and think to himself, "this is a red flag," or does he potentially think, instead, "more playing time for me."

pfrduke
04-02-2017, 11:19 PM
Why would Bolden think he'll play next year? We had a tremendous need at his specific position this year, and Bolden's time dwindled as the season went on. He couldn't or wan't given a chance to play through his mistakes this year. That's not going to happen next year.

If this comes to pass, it's just another way our short rotation hurt us.

That's the thing, though - we didn't have a tremendous need at his position. We had a phenomenal freshman who was best as a 4 and a 5th year senior post who merited 30 mpg. Do I think he could have still played himself into more playing time? Sure. But it's not like we were desperate for center play, particularly given the rest of the roster.

Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15
04-02-2017, 11:23 PM
What's surprising, if not shocking: Bolden hoped to be a one-and-done. Now he's got to sit out a year and then play another season for someone else, meaning he'll be at least three years in. His fastest path to the NBA was to come back to Duke and play reasonably well next year.

Well, he was one and done.

Dukehky
04-02-2017, 11:23 PM
Lame. The rush to get the scoop can be very costly sometimes. They should've let it play out.




I don't appreciate this to be honest. Those guys to a hell of a job all the time. They have held the news on a lot of stuff over the years, and only do things when they hear confirmation from multiple sources. They're the best in the biz. And they very well could have gone ahead with this a while ago, and they immediately walked it back while still saying they expect it to happen.

Could just be because I follow them really closely, but they have built more than enough equity with me to go with this little mess up. I still think he's gone and it may be announced Tuesday. Duke usually doesn't make decisions during days in which the tournament is being played.

subzero02
04-02-2017, 11:29 PM
3 transfers announced in just the last 2 weeks, and all 3 are big men. Jefferson graduates, Giles enters the NBA Draft, and Jeter, Obi, and Marques all transferring. Who's gonna play the 5-spot in the middle next year? We better hope we get Bamba. And to think that Marques Bolden was expected to be a one-and-done player at the start of the season. I do wish him the best in his future endeavors.

As far as Duke is concerned, he basically was.

Troublemaker
04-02-2017, 11:29 PM
I don't appreciate this to be honest. Those guys to a hell of a job all the time. They have held the news on a lot of stuff over the years, and only do things when they hear confirmation from multiple sources. They're the best in the biz. And they very well could have gone ahead with this a while ago, and they immediately walked it back while still saying they expect it to happen.

Could just be because I follow them really closely, but they have built more than enough equity with me to go with this little mess up. I still think he's gone and it may be announced Tuesday. Duke usually doesn't make decisions during days in which the tournament is being played.

I'm sure they're great. I can only judge them on this one thing (and that's all I did), and this was a bad slip up.

If they've done better in the past or will in the future, awesome.

Bluegrassdevil1
04-02-2017, 11:29 PM
If anyone finds this truly surprising, then I do not what to say, because I view this event as the same as the sun rising in the east. In this instance, the recruiting process was weird, as was the season, so... good luck, and I hope he becomes a superstar.

I truly suspect that a certain individual currently residing in West Chester, PA, will make everything all the better.

Everything is going to be just fine.

Chicago 1995
04-02-2017, 11:35 PM
That's the thing, though - we didn't have a tremendous need at his position. We had a phenomenal freshman who was best as a 4 and a 5th year senior post who merited 30 mpg. Do I think he could have still played himself into more playing time? Sure. But it's not like we were desperate for center play, particularly given the rest of the roster.

We needed a rim protector and some offensive presence in the post. Because of Giles injuries, Bolden was our best chance to find that player, and by the end of the season, when we needed to win four games in four days, he played 5 total minutes in the last 3 games of the ACC tourney. Bolden can look at lot of schools -- schools of the same caliber as Duke -- where rotations are deeper and guys not as good as him are playing through mistakes and improving. Not disappearing as the season comes to March. That might be that Bolden's not as good he thinks or our staff thought 12 months ago, but would you blame Bolden and his family if they thought he was in the wrong program?

proelitedota
04-02-2017, 11:52 PM
Another concern I have is whether all these guys leaving will have a downstream negative effect on recruits who are/were considering coming to Duke. First, we don't make the sweet sixteen, and then there's a mass exodus.
Does a potential recruit look at that and think to himself, "this is a red flag," or does he potentially think, instead, "more playing time for me."

I think we took on too much fat the recent years when our wide net approach, combined with our NBA success picked up players who traditionally we didn't used to recruit or would commit to us. We're also recruiting over the players we have, especially at the 5 spot.

The system will adjust and everything will balance out in the end as long as our staff learn and do their due diligence.

Furniture
04-02-2017, 11:56 PM
From what I remember bolden said after his commitment that he would be at Duke for a couple of years.
I also remember his Mom was really happy but his Dad not so much?

Potato
04-03-2017, 12:02 AM
I absolutely wish him well and hope he finds success wherever he goes next.

But man I hate how common transferring is in college basketball now. I feel like it didn't used to be like this. I mean it's just a revolving door at this point, I just wish more guys honored their decision and commitment out of high school - through the good and bad. Now as soon as adversity strikes guys just decide to leave because it's the thing to do.

westwall
04-03-2017, 12:10 AM
I don't appreciate this to be honest. Those guys to a hell of a job all the time. They have held the news on a lot of stuff over the years, and only do things when they hear confirmation from multiple sources. They're the best in the biz. And they very well could have gone ahead with this a while ago, and they immediately walked it back while still saying they expect it to happen.

Could just be because I follow them really closely, but they have built more than enough equity with me to go with this little mess up. I still think he's gone and it may be announced Tuesday. Duke usually doesn't make decisions during days in which the tournament is being played.

So far as I can tell from all of the many posts above there are reliable reports that Bolden is considering a transfer and may or may not decide to leave, but no confirmation that a final decision has been made. If he leaves, I will be disappointed, but I will refrain from opining on what he will do -- and certainly will not opine that he should leave -- because I don't know and don't wish to help push him to a decision he may later regret. Nor do I think it appropriate to opine on whether he would/will/would not achieve starter minutes if he stays; that is something only the staff really knows. So I will cool it until reliable and final confirmation --pro or con -- appears.

brlftz
04-03-2017, 12:16 AM
It's easy for fans to forget, but the fact that Duke Basketball is an ELITE organization means we don't do things the way they're done at other places. I mean, think about your images for this in other contexts - high powered law firms, top media organizations, executive suites. Expectations are high there, and given what Duke basketball offers, it has those expectations as well. This really isn't the place to come if you want to learn on the job, especially if you're learning effort and attention to detail. Every coaching philosophy involves trade offs, and like many I'm envious when I see teams that are deep, or see marginal players emerge as they get playing time (usually by necessity) and grow in confidence. But, that's not going to be Duke.

Playing for Duke is a huge opportunity, and I'm sure players are warned that while we will love and support you, that love and support does not come in the form of playing time that is not earned through sustained performance that lives up to Duke standards. You don't go to work at Goldman Sachs coming out of B-School and expect to get a fine quality of life with no stress. And you don't go to Duke and expect to get time on the floor if you're not living up to Coach K's standards. As fans we fall in love with "our guys" and root hard for them, but within the program there's a lot more to it than that.

In Bolden's case, evidently Coach K felt that Bolden didn't earn what he apparently expected. Maybe a different kind of coach would have gotten more out of Bolden by putting him out on the floor and seeing if he can figure out in a game what he's not figuring out in practice, but Coach K isn't exactly one to hand out rewards in advance. We dwell on the examples where we feel like Coach K's philosophy cost us one that either got away or never panned out, but it's less obvious how much better he's made the players that DID thrive in that system. His system costs us those other guys, but if you look at results over the years, I'd say it's been a pretty good deal.

Bluegrassdevil1
04-03-2017, 12:27 AM
I would like to further my thought that only one person has won more national championships than Coach K, no one has won more gold medals, and no one has won more total games.

As far as I am concerned, whatever Coach K decides regarding the Duke basketball program, is fine with me. The man has earned the right one-hundred times over.

Perhaps some choices have been mishandled, but perhaps not. Either way, I do not care, because the man is 70 years old, his time as head coach is short, and no one will ever match his achievements as coach of the Duke basketball program, so I am okay with however this wonderful journey draws to a close.

Play next season with another stock of superstars, or play with five random guys he found out on Whitford Drive, either way, I just want to take in these final season(s).

SoCalDukeFan
04-03-2017, 12:37 AM
Look I don't know the factors in this decision but it does seem to be that playing for Duke is not for everyone. For one thing your teammates and those you are battling for playing time are very very good. And next year you can expect the staff to recruit very very good players. If you live in Texas then Duke is pretty far away. There are other factors that set Duke apart.

Duke will be fine.

SoCal

Olympic Fan
04-03-2017, 12:45 AM
If anyone finds this truly surprising, then I do not what to say, because I view this event as the same as the sun rising in the east. In this instance, the recruiting process was weird, as was the season, so... good luck, and I hope he becomes a superstar.

I truly suspect that a certain individual currently residing in West Chester, PA, will make everything all the better.

Everything is going to be just fine.

I DO find the news very surprising -- if Bolden does indeed decide to transfer.

I know that Bolden's goal is to get to the NBA as soon as possible. He wanted to be one and done. It didn't work out -- I believe because of his leg injury. The Bolden I saw in the early exhibitions was not the same guy who came back after missing eight games. He had no bounce, no explosion and he wasn't in shape after missing almost two months.

Okay. Time to re-evaluate. What's the quickest way to get to the NBA now? Isn't it to come back healthy at Duke next year, establish himself as a solid player, then go pro next spring?

Or he could try and turn pro now and probably play overseas or in the developmental league.

But the idea of transferring means that he has to sit out a season, then play another season. That puts him in the NBA in the spring of 2019 -- at the earliest.

I'm not saying that staying at Duke is the best chance for him to get to the NBA quickly ... but transferring to another school is an absolutely ludicrous idea.

PS I do agree with you last line -- everything will be fine. Also, Chase Jeter might want to wait and see what happens with Bolden and Bamba. If neither is at Duke next year, there is definitely a spot in the rotation for Jeter, It wouldn't be the first time a Duke player announced he was transferring, then changed his mind. Phil Henderson left Duke in the summer of 1989, returned that fall and helped the Devils to the 1990 Final Four.

Of course, while I'm sure it's true that Bolden is strong considering leaving Duke, I don't believe that's a firm decision yet. I'm willing to wait and see how it plays out.

Chicago 1995
04-03-2017, 01:38 AM
It's easy for fans to forget, but the fact that Duke Basketball is an ELITE organization means we don't do things the way they're done at other places. I mean, think about your images for this in other contexts - high powered law firms, top media organizations, executive suites. Expectations are high there, and given what Duke basketball offers, it has those expectations as well. This really isn't the place to come if you want to learn on the job, especially if you're learning effort and attention to detail. Every coaching philosophy involves trade offs, and like many I'm envious when I see teams that are deep, or see marginal players emerge as they get playing time (usually by necessity) and grow in confidence. But, that's not going to be Duke.

Playing for Duke is a huge opportunity, and I'm sure players are warned that while we will love and support you, that love and support does not come in the form of playing time that is not earned through sustained performance that lives up to Duke standards. You don't go to work at Goldman Sachs coming out of B-School and expect to get a fine quality of life with no stress. And you don't go to Duke and expect to get time on the floor if you're not living up to Coach K's standards. As fans we fall in love with "our guys" and root hard for them, but within the program there's a lot more to it than that.

In Bolden's case, evidently Coach K felt that Bolden didn't earn what he apparently expected. Maybe a different kind of coach would have gotten more out of Bolden by putting him out on the floor and seeing if he can figure out in a game what he's not figuring out in practice, but Coach K isn't exactly one to hand out rewards in advance. We dwell on the examples where we feel like Coach K's philosophy cost us one that either got away or never panned out, but it's less obvious how much better he's made the players that DID thrive in that system. His system costs us those other guys, but if you look at results over the years, I'd say it's been a pretty good deal.


There are plenty of "elite organizations" in college basketball where guys do "learn on the job" and, as opposed to Duke, part of that learning is on-the-job training -- i.e. consistent PT. There's one eight miles down the road who does things wildly differently in terms of PT (and going to class, but in this context, much as the whole fake classes thing infuriates me, isn't relevant) and they've been plenty successful. There's one in Lawrence, Kansas too. Billy Donovan's back-to-back Florida champs were built off the growth of Corey Brewer and Jo Noah as sometimes overmatched freshmen. Rick Pitino takes a different appraoch, particularly with bigs. Izzo uses PT to develop players.

Ks the best that ever coached college basketball. That doesn't make him perfect. It doesn't mean he can't improve. Managing and developing a larger rotation and using game time as part of the player development cycle is something other coaches -- even coaches who run "elite organizations" like ours with comparable if not better results -- do better than K. If Bolden goes, it won't be the first player that philosophy has cost us, but he's certainly the most talented, and promises to leave our roster with a giant darned hole. I think not getting Bolden consistent run hurt us this year, and if Marcus is gone, will hurt us more next year.

CharlestonDave
04-03-2017, 01:56 AM
There are plenty of "elite organizations" in college basketball where guys do "learn on the job" and, as opposed to Duke, part of that learning is on-the-job training -- i.e. consistent PT. There's one eight miles down the road who does things wildly differently in terms of PT (and going to class, but in this context, much as the whole fake classes thing infuriates me, isn't relevant) and they've been plenty successful. There's one in Lawrence, Kansas too. Billy Donovan's back-to-back Florida champs were built off the growth of Corey Brewer and Jo Noah as sometimes overmatched freshmen. Rick Pitino takes a different appraoch, particularly with bigs. Izzo uses PT to develop players.

Ks the best that ever coached college basketball. That doesn't make him perfect. It doesn't mean he can't improve. Managing and developing a larger rotation and using game time as part of the player development cycle is something other coaches -- even coaches who run "elite organizations" like ours with comparable if not better results -- do better than K. If Bolden goes, it won't be the first player that philosophy has cost us, but he's certainly the most talented, and promises to leave our roster with a giant darned hole. I think not getting Bolden consistent run hurt us this year, and if Marcus is gone, will hurt us more next year.

I think that UCLA fans might disagree with you re: your first sentence in your last paragraph.

brlftz
04-03-2017, 02:29 AM
There are plenty of "elite organizations" in college basketball where guys do "learn on the job" and, as opposed to Duke, part of that learning is on-the-job training -- i.e. consistent PT. There's one eight miles down the road who does things wildly differently in terms of PT (and going to class, but in this context, much as the whole fake classes thing infuriates me, isn't relevant) and they've been plenty successful. There's one in Lawrence, Kansas too. Billy Donovan's back-to-back Florida champs were built off the growth of Corey Brewer and Jo Noah as sometimes overmatched freshmen. Rick Pitino takes a different appraoch, particularly with bigs. Izzo uses PT to develop players.

Ks the best that ever coached college basketball. That doesn't make him perfect. It doesn't mean he can't improve. Managing and developing a larger rotation and using game time as part of the player development cycle is something other coaches -- even coaches who run "elite organizations" like ours with comparable if not better results -- do better than K. If Bolden goes, it won't be the first player that philosophy has cost us, but he's certainly the most talented, and promises to leave our roster with a giant darned hole. I think not getting Bolden consistent run hurt us this year, and if Marcus is gone, will hurt us more next year.

I tried to make it clear that I'm acknowledging that this approach (that I'm describing from afar and therefore guessing at) isn't right for everyone. My point is that we are willing to pay the price of not being the program built for guys that need playing time to develop so that we can instead reap the benefits of activating the true ceiling of players that rise up to that challenge. Would Laettner have been Laettner for a different kind of coach? I think probably not. K may be the best ever, but even he can't optimize for all scenarios, and I don't think any coach is capable of maximizing every single player. Putting in a system that works for one guy often excludes having a system that works for another guy.

I also want to add that I think players are given an honest preview of our approach, and this is what they sign up for. They decide to take a bit of a risk and go for being the best they can be, knowing it won't be easy. Some guys realize that this isn't for them, and move on.

Dr. Rosenrosen
04-03-2017, 04:05 AM
Mods, I humbly submit this thread should not exist. Breaks every rule about rumor and speculation.

Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15
04-03-2017, 05:51 AM
Mods, I humbly submit this thread should not exist. Breaks every rule about rumor and speculation.

No need to get high and mighty here. I posted because of an Adam Rowe Tweet that has since been deleted. He is a pretty danged good authority, and is far from rumor or speculation.

He's not infallible, but I would say a Tweet from Rowe is generally a pretty reliable source.

Would be pleased for this all to be over nothing.

CDu
04-03-2017, 07:51 AM
Mods, I humbly submit this thread should not exist. Breaks every rule about rumor and speculation.

It actually doesn't. There is an article on it. So it isn't unfounded speculation. The rules are quite clear on this.

flyingdutchdevil
04-03-2017, 08:18 AM
Jesus H, Mary, and Joseph. I was expecting Bolden to bolt for the NBA, not transfer. He clearly didn't live up to much of his potential his freshman year (and no, injuries weren't the main reason. Maybe we can stop using that as an excuse for Bolden this year).

Bolden's situation - in a vacuum - can be seen as a player who thought he couldn't crack the starting line-up for a blue chip school. But three transfers - all big men and this excludes 1 super injured player who likely could have benefited staying another year but makes sense that he left (Giles) - is very concerning.

Duke isn't a big man school. I get that. But Duke has had a really strong track record of recruiting excellent/elite big men over the last 4 years (including this year). My gut tells me this will likely result in big men recruiting taking a hit. I mean, with all these transfers, how can it not? If I'm Calipari, Self, Roy, or any other elite coach, I'm using this hard against the top big men who have Duke on their radar.

flyingdutchdevil
04-03-2017, 08:21 AM
For all those that criticized budwom, he's basically predicted everything that happened so far.

weezie
04-03-2017, 08:25 AM
...I also want to add that I think players are given an honest preview of our approach, and this is what they sign up for. They decide to take a bit of a risk and go for being the best they can be, knowing it won't be easy. Some guys realize that this isn't for them, and move on.

Completely agree. I think by now, Coach K's honesty with his players is recognized as the bedrock of his success. If the player or his support figures don't accept that reality, then good luck and good bye.

lotusland
04-03-2017, 08:37 AM
Mebbe our Academic All-ACC will reconsider. C'mon, Chase. You know you love Duke.

That would be my hope. Love to have a Junior in the rotation next year.

UNCfan
04-03-2017, 08:39 AM
Completely agree. I think by now, Coach K's honesty with his players is recognized as the bedrock of his success. If the player or his support figures don't accept that reality, then good luck and good bye.

I think other schools will try to use this against Duke, but I do not think it will work. K plays the players he thinks are the best. If you (5*big man) think you are the best, then you do not think this will happen to you.

Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15
04-03-2017, 08:43 AM
Completely agree. I think by now, Coach K's honesty with his players is recognized as the bedrock of his success. If the player or his support figures don't accept that reality, then good luck and good bye.

Go read the Battier piece about Coach K assuring that play time is earned, not promised or bestowed. Read Capel's piece about his dad and how Jeff was frustrated in his first years at Duke,and how K (and Capel Sr.) pushed him to work harder and get better.

K isn't perfect, but his attitude towards players, starters, and playing time doesn't change much. Nothing is ever given to players.

Wish Bolden, Jeter, Obi, et al the best.

lotusland
04-03-2017, 08:48 AM
If anyone finds this truly surprising, then I do not what to say, because I view this event as the same as the sun rising in the east. In this instance, the recruiting process was weird, as was the season, so... good luck, and I hope he becomes a superstar.

I truly suspect that a certain individual currently residing in West Chester, PA, will make everything all the better.

Everything is going to be just fine.

4 -5 freshman starters isn't ok with me. If Duke goes full Kentucky I'll lose interest. I'm not an alum and I have other interests.

slower
04-03-2017, 08:48 AM
unless we miss on both Knox and Bamba

And that could easily happen.

GGLC
04-03-2017, 08:50 AM
There are plenty of "elite organizations" in college basketball where guys do "learn on the job" and, as opposed to Duke, part of that learning is on-the-job training -- i.e. consistent PT. There's one eight miles down the road who does things wildly differently in terms of PT (and going to class, but in this context, much as the whole fake classes thing infuriates me, isn't relevant) and they've been plenty successful. There's one in Lawrence, Kansas too. Billy Donovan's back-to-back Florida champs were built off the growth of Corey Brewer and Jo Noah as sometimes overmatched freshmen. Rick Pitino takes a different appraoch, particularly with bigs. Izzo uses PT to develop players.

Ks the best that ever coached college basketball. That doesn't make him perfect. It doesn't mean he can't improve. Managing and developing a larger rotation and using game time as part of the player development cycle is something other coaches -- even coaches who run "elite organizations" like ours with comparable if not better results -- do better than K. If Bolden goes, it won't be the first player that philosophy has cost us, but he's certainly the most talented, and promises to leave our roster with a giant darned hole. I think not getting Bolden consistent run hurt us this year, and if Marcus is gone, will hurt us more next year.

Extremely well-said.

sagegrouse
04-03-2017, 08:56 AM
Go read the Battier piece about Coach K assuring that play time is earned, not promised or bestowed. Read Capel's piece about his dad and how Jeff was frustrated in his first years at Duke,and how K (and Capel Sr.) pushed him to work harder and get better.

K isn't perfect, but his attitude towards players, starters, and playing time doesn't change much. Nothing is ever given to players.

Wish Bolden, Jeter, Obi, et al the best.

I'll work the numbers when I have time, but there is a change in "sea state" in high-level college basketball. Time was, when the average per-season loss from a seven-man Duke rotation was two or three players, or 29-43 percent. Now the loss from a seven-man rotation is more like 4-5 players, 57-71 percent -- and maybe six out of seven this year.

I think two strategy adjustments make sense -- larger recruiting classes, which we have done, and deeper rotation, which we have not done -- yet.

miramar
04-03-2017, 09:00 AM
I wish him the best either way, but I am always surprised when players leave when there should be open spots in the rotation the following year.

I remember an announcer saying at the beginning of the season that one of the coaches had told him that the three freshmen on the bench because of injuries were "scary good," but clearly that was only the case with Tatum. If we were disappointed then I can only imagine how the players must feel.

I'm sure that if I came in as the #11 recruit in the rsci, with expectations of being a one and done, then I would have to reevaluate my situation if I only scored 16 field goals the entire season. I can only hope that he is discussing his situation and his concerns with the coaches and not with some handlers or one of those shady uncles that often seem to come out of the woodwork.

Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15
04-03-2017, 09:04 AM
I wish him the best either way, but I am always surprised when players leave when there should be open spots in the rotation the following year.

I remember an announcer saying at the beginning of the season that one of the coaches had told him that the three freshmen on the bench because of injuries were "scary good," but clearly that was only the case with Tatum. If we were disappointed then I can only imagine how the players must feel.

I'm sure that if I came in as the #11 recruit in the rsci, with expectations of being a one and done, then I would have to reevaluate my situation if I only scored 16 field goals the entire season. I can only hope that he is discussing his situation and his concerns with the coaches and not with some handlers or one of those shady uncles that often seem to come out of the woodwork.

I think the most surprising thing about this, is that by transferring, Bolden effectively changes his plans from "one and done" to "three at the very least." I can only imagine that if he thought he was going to get the chance to showcase his skills next season in a way that was good for both himself and for Duke, he'd be hitting the weight-room and lacing up his shoes next fall in a Duke jersey.

Time will tell I suppose.

CrazyNotCrazie
04-03-2017, 09:05 AM
Please refresh me on the timeline but I believe Bolden knew Amile was coming back before he officially committed? So knowing Coach K's clear preference for upperclassmen, it should have been clear that playing time would be a bit scarce his freshman year, before he even got injured, and that he would be targeting his sophomore year for a big leap.

That being said, the optimist in me is hoping that Jeter announcing so early that he is leaving, ahead of announcements by Bolden and Bamba, means that a) the staff is very optimistic about getting Bamba and/or b) Vrank showed a lot of improvement in practice and really did move ahead of Jeter, so Jeter felt that he would be behind Vrank in the rotation, regardless of whether or not Bolden and Bamba also were there.

Regardless, I wish Bolden the best of luck in his future endeavors.

UNCfan
04-03-2017, 09:15 AM
I wonder if Bolden would consider entering the draft and continue his transfer at the same time? It could give him valuable information for him to improve. He could also declare the following year as well without playing a minute, right?

devildeac
04-03-2017, 09:17 AM
Jesus H, Mary, and Joseph. I was expecting Bolden to bolt for the NBA, not transfer. He clearly didn't live up to much of his potential his freshman year (and no, injuries weren't the main reason. Maybe we can stop using that as an excuse for Bolden this year).

Bolden's situation - in a vacuum - can be seen as a player who thought he couldn't crack the starting line-up for a blue chip school. But three transfers - all big men and this excludes 1 super injured player who likely could have benefited staying another year but makes sense that he left (Giles) - is very concerning.

Duke isn't a big man school. I get that. But Duke has had a really strong track record of recruiting excellent/elite big men over the last 4 years (including this year). My gut tells me this will likely result in big men recruiting taking a hit. I mean, with all these transfers, how can it not? If I'm Calipari, Self, Roy, or any other elite coach, I'm using this hard against the top big men who have Duke on their radar.

Paging Steve W.

:o:rolleyes:

devildeac
04-03-2017, 09:19 AM
For all those that criticized budwom, he's basically predicted everything that happened so far.

Plus, he has great taste in craft beers. ;)

Atlanta Duke
04-03-2017, 09:25 AM
4 -5 freshman starters isn't ok with me. If Duke goes full Kentucky I'll lose interest. I'm not an alum and I have other interests.

So you draw the line at 3?

Since you are not an alum good luck finding your new bandwagon.

Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15
04-03-2017, 09:26 AM
So you draw the line at 3?

Since you are not an alum good luck finding your new bandwagon.

If s/he leaves, we will have an open roster spot.

Ichabod Drain
04-03-2017, 09:34 AM
If s/he leaves, we will have an open roster spot.

It's a transfer epidemic!

budwom
04-03-2017, 09:35 AM
There are plenty of "elite organizations" in college basketball where guys do "learn on the job" and, as opposed to Duke, part of that learning is on-the-job training -- i.e. consistent PT. There's one eight miles down the road who does things wildly differently in terms of PT (and going to class, but in this context, much as the whole fake classes thing infuriates me, isn't relevant) and they've been plenty successful. There's one in Lawrence, Kansas too. Billy Donovan's back-to-back Florida champs were built off the growth of Corey Brewer and Jo Noah as sometimes overmatched freshmen. Rick Pitino takes a different appraoch, particularly with bigs. Izzo uses PT to develop players.

Ks the best that ever coached college basketball. That doesn't make him perfect. It doesn't mean he can't improve. Managing and developing a larger rotation and using game time as part of the player development cycle is something other coaches -- even coaches who run "elite organizations" like ours with comparable if not better results -- do better than K. If Bolden goes, it won't be the first player that philosophy has cost us, but he's certainly the most talented, and promises to leave our roster with a giant darned hole. I think not getting Bolden consistent run hurt us this year, and if Marcus is gone, will hurt us more next year.

Well stated. Hopefully K makes some adjustments, given his stated need for more depth. One of the things that bothers me about some of our defections is that we collectively feel K carefully
picks guys who are suited to Duke, he doesn't take just anyone. And yet, when kids choose to leave, out come the criticisms that the kid's a slacker, or has a bad attitude, or wants things handed to him.
Managing personnel is a key responsibility for a coach.

There is nothing wrong with Duke hoops that a slightly more generous rotation wouldn't cure.
p.s. if DeLaurier and Vrank don't get PT next year, will they stick around to become upperclassmen?

Steven43
04-03-2017, 09:40 AM
4 -5 freshman starters isn't ok with me. If Duke goes full Kentucky I'll lose interest. I'm not an alum and I have other interests.
Hey, I get where you're coming from and I don't like the Kentucky scenario either. But Duke Basketball is in an awkward transition period right now. Coach K is nearing the end of his career and is virtually forced to recruit a lot of OAD-types because really good four-year guys (who are both difficult to identify and to recruit) are probably wary of signing on knowing that any year could be K's last.

Almost every really good coach has this problem as retirement looms. The difference here is that K is able to land elite recruits even in the twilight of his career. So it is what it is.

Hopefully, you will continue to support the Blue Devils through this very challenging phase and on through to the next coach and his assistants.

Troublemaker
04-03-2017, 09:41 AM
He clearly didn't live up to much of his potential his freshman year (and no, injuries weren't the main reason. Maybe we can stop using that as an excuse for Bolden this year).

The injuries plus Coach K's short rotation are great excuses for Bolden, imo. All I heard in the preseason was how impressive Tatum, Kennard, and Bolden looked in practice. I think had he remained healthy, he would've had a really good freshman season and possibly remained the starter for awhile. We'll never know, though.

Bolden's going to be a very good player and eventual 1st-round draft pick, either for Duke (if he trusts the staff) or for someone else (if he doesn't).


For all those that criticized budwom, he's basically predicted everything that happened so far.

I don't believe anyone criticized his accuracy.


I think other schools will try to use this against Duke, but I do not think it will work. K plays the players he thinks are the best. If you (5*big man) think you are the best, then you do not think this will happen to you.

Bingo. If Coach K features Carter next season, then 2017 was just a one-year blip that can be excused with injuries. I mean, the staff should definitely prepare good explanations for what happened with these transfers when they do in-home visits with recruits' families, but the staff should be able to weather the storm of 2017.

Now, if 2017 is followed by a 2018 in which Carter (or Bamba) transfers, then we are in trouble.


4 -5 freshman starters isn't ok with me. If Duke goes full Kentucky I'll lose interest. I'm not an alum and I have other interests.

I expect Frank and one of Grayson/Luke to be back. But if not, I'm still going to root hard for Duke. 2015 had 3 freshmen. It's not that much different to go to 4.


Please refresh me on the timeline but I believe Bolden knew Amile was coming back before he officially committed? So knowing Coach K's clear preference for upperclassmen, it should have been clear that playing time would be a bit scarce his freshman year, before he even got injured, and that he would be targeting his sophomore year for a big leap.

Bolden knew it was possible that he would be a reserve player averaging 10-15 mpg. (And sometimes those guys still get drafted in the first round.) He didn't know he'd be the 3rd-string center and get no playing time.


I wonder if Bolden would consider entering the draft and continue his transfer at the same time? It could give him valuable information for him to improve. He could also declare the following year as well without playing a minute, right?

Yep. You can withdraw twice from the draft.

Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15
04-03-2017, 09:43 AM
Hey, I get where you're coming from and I don't like the Kentucky scenario either. But Duke Basketball is in an awkward transition period right now. Coach K is nearing the end of his career and is virtually forced to recruit a lot of OAD-types because really good four-year guys (who are both difficult to identify and to recruit) are probably wary of signing on knowing that any year could be K's last.

Almost every really good coach has this problem as retirement looms. The difference here is that K is able to land elite recruits even in the twilight of his career. So it is what it is.

Hopefully, you will continue to support the Blue Devils through this very challenging phase and on through to the next coach and his assistants.

I frequently don't agree with you, but I will give you props that this is a fair point. I haven't seen much evidence that four-year guys are shying away from Duke, but it's a possibility as you lay it out. I certainly worry each year that it might be Coach's last, and as much as I love the program, I don't have nearly as much riding on it as the good men who put the jersey on.

Scorp4me
04-03-2017, 09:46 AM
We're only a few years removed from a national championship so trust me, some elite kid coming in (and these are still kids) is simply thinking..."if they only had me they would have won it all". Think Jones and Cook's interactions before he came to Duke. Our recruiting will be fine, at least as fine and consistent as recruiting said elite kids can be.

Everyone is complaining about our rotation being small. Should it be 10? Should it be 9? Is one more player in the rotation going to make a massive difference? A difference in Bolden's case perhaps, but overall I'm not sure.

As for the losses this year, are any really surprising or unexpected? The Seniors were graduating (to say nothing of one who came back for an extra season). Grayson may leave (could have last year). Luke may (can anyone blame him). Giles declared (even if he wanted to stay, in his situation he needs to take advantage while he can). Tatum declared (heck even I would in that situation and I loved college). Jeter is leaving (he had surgery on a herniated disk and didn't play, if he feels he still needs to leave I can't fault the staff). Obi is leaving (transferring again, I had big hopes for him but injuries derailed him and he seems very happy with his time at Duke, again can't fault the staff for not playing a kid who could barely walk). If Bolden transfers it'll be the one head scratcher for sure based on what he could return to.

So if I'm going to fault the staff it's for recruiting in a way that set us up for two kids returning that we didn't expect cause they seemingly were enjoying their college experience so much (Allen and Jefferson), allowing two injuries that severley limited playing time during the year (Jeter and Bolden), bringing in two kids with injuries that we knew would limit playing time or potential (Obi and Giles), and continuing to develop other player in a way that had them surpass others who were expected to be the stars (Tatrum and Kennard).

How dare them!

Highlander
04-03-2017, 09:48 AM
Speaking of transfers, one recent article floating around noted that UNC has not had a single player transfer since 2011 (Larry Drew). So I decided to take a look at early entries and transfers for the two schools. Please correct me if any dates or spellings are off; looking at 2-3 different sites to pull this info together and I may have missed something.

UNC Early Entry since 2011 - 6 players, 2.5 years per player:
2015 - JP Tokoto - Junior
2014 - PJ Hairston - Sophomore
2013 - Reggie Bullock - Junior
2012 - Harrison Barnes - Sophomore
2012 - Kendall Marshall - Sophomore
2012 - Jon Henson - Junior

Duke Early Entries since 2011 - 8 players, 1 year per player average:
2016 - Brandon Ingram - Freshman
2015 - Jahlil Okafor - Freshman
2015 - Justise Winslow - Freshman
2015 - Tyus Jones - Freshman
2014 - Jabari Parker - Freshman
2014 - Rodney Hood - Sophomore (transfer in with 1 year at Duke)
2012 - Austin Rivers - Freshman
2011 - Kyrie Irving - Freshman

UNC Transfers since 2011 - 0

Duke Transfers since 2011 -

2017 - Sean Obi (transfer in with 1 "playing" year at Duke)
2017 - Chase Jeter
2016 - Derryck Thornton
2015 - Rasheed Suliamon (diff circumstances, but he did transfer)
2015 - Olek Czyz
2011 - Alex Murphy
2011 - Michael Gbinije

If Bolden transfers, that's 8 transfers and 8 early entries in the last 7 years, roughly one of each per year on average. UNC has averaged less than one early entry (always after at least 2 years) and zero transfers during the same period.

As I see it, our trend is that Freshman who don't crack the 7 man rotation end up transferring, while the Freshman that do crack the rotation typically decide to go pro. Grayson, Matt, and Amile helped cover up this trend, but two are gone and G may follow. None of those 3 played much as freshmen IIRC. Just seems that players are not willing to wait their turn and develop at Duke, while they are at UNC. Is that a function of a more liberal substitution pattern? I don't know.

CDu
04-03-2017, 09:49 AM
I frequently don't agree with you, but I will give you props that this is a fair point. I haven't seen much evidence that four-year guys are shying away from Duke, but it's a possibility as you lay it out. I certainly worry each year that it might be Coach's last, and as much as I love the program, I don't have nearly as much riding on it as the good men who put the jersey on.

Yeah, this is why I argued against those who said "let's not go the grad transfer route" back in the spring of 2013. There are a finite number of years left with Coach K at the helm. I don't want any season to not be maximizing his chances of another title. That was 4 years and a back surgery ago (crazy!), meaning he's that much closer to the end of the line. And who knows what will happen when Capel or someone else takes the helm?

If we do lose Bolden and don't strike it rich with at least two of the three recruits we're working on, I think we will need to go the grad transfer route. Perhaps more than one grad transfer.

Here's hoping that we get at least one of Kennard/Allen/Bolden back and at least two of the three freshmen we're targeting.

duke96
04-03-2017, 09:51 AM
Certainly understand the deference to Coach K's handling of the program however he sees fit, but does anyone think it can be good for recruiting to see the rate of transferring among highly rated players in recent years? Seems to me if I were a top recruit with plenty of options, it would be hard not to worry about things "just not working out" at Duke for some unanticipated reason. Do other top schools have similar rates of departures among talented kids? Maybe so. And more importantly maybe this is not true with respect to Bolden...

weezie
04-03-2017, 10:05 AM
...Ks the best that ever coached college basketball. That doesn't make him perfect. It doesn't mean he can't improve...

I'd bet my last dollar that Coach K agrees with you 100%.

richardjackson199
04-03-2017, 10:14 AM
Should the title of this thread be updated to Bolden Considering Transferring?
I assume that implies he is also considering staying at Duke?
Hoping for the best.

dukebluesincebirth
04-03-2017, 10:18 AM
Should the title of this thread be updated to Bolden Considering Transferring?
I assume that implies he is also considering staying at Duke?
Hoping for the best.

I thought the same thing. The front page article says "considering," but everyone on here is talking like it's a done deal. And the thread title suggests that also. Is he gone?

Richard Berg
04-03-2017, 10:19 AM
I'm not saying that staying at Duke is the best chance for him to get to the NBA quickly ... but transferring to another school is an absolutely ludicrous idea.
I don't know much about the various kids' personalities, but assuming you're right that Bolden is less focused on classwork than, say, Jeter: it makes sense to transfer to a school where he could spend a higher % of time on his NBA goals.

As for sitting out the transfer year: I wonder if we can glean anything from the schools in the news report. Both are not-very-selective private schools in the DFW area. Maybe he has a sick relative nearby who could qualify for an NCAA exception, Elliot style. Or maybe he was on the cusp of not qualifying for 2017-8 under Duke's academic progress rules, and needs a more lenient school that will accept however much credit he's amassed so far as sufficient for a sophomore.

kAzE
04-03-2017, 10:24 AM
Thanks to a series of early morning meetings, I'm a bit late to this party. The first I saw of this news, it was already walked back to "Bolden considering transferring" instead of anything official. Given that, shouldn't we wait to cast judgement on this, in the case (however unlikely) that he does decide to stay?

BigZ
04-03-2017, 10:24 AM
Duke is like a combo of Kentucky and NC State

Troublemaker
04-03-2017, 10:27 AM
I don't know much about the various kids' personalities, but assuming you're right that Bolden is less focused on classwork than, say, Jeter: it makes sense to transfer to a school where he could spend a higher % of time on his NBA goals.

As for sitting out the transfer year: I wonder if we can glean anything from the schools in the news report. Both are not-very-selective private schools in the DFW area. Maybe he has a sick relative nearby who could qualify for an NCAA exception, Elliot style. Or maybe he was on the cusp of not qualifying for 2017-8 under Duke's academic progress rules, and needs a more lenient school that will accept however much credit he's amassed so far as sufficient for a sophomore.

Maybe he needs a coach that didn't make him a 3rd-string center playing no minutes.

I agree with others upthread about not starting a narrative about a kid being a poor student or dumb just because he's considering a transfer.

Chicago 1995
04-03-2017, 10:27 AM
I'd bet my last dollar that Coach K agrees with you 100%.

Because I know he knows he can improve -- just like any of us can at, well, anything.

But actually changing and taking the hard steps to improve -- especially when in the short term, those steps might make you worse and not better -- is really hard for anyone in any role. It's not like the short rotation and the problems it creates are a new thing.

Troublemaker
04-03-2017, 10:33 AM
Duke is like a combo of Kentucky and NC State

Pitt should get a mention here.

Pitt and Duke actually should combine rosters Steagles (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steagles) style to see if we have an ACC contender for next season.

Clay Feet POF
04-03-2017, 10:33 AM
There are plenty of "elite organizations" in college basketball where guys do "learn on the job" and, as opposed to Duke, part of that learning is on-the-job training -- i.e. consistent PT. There's one eight miles down the road who does things wildly differently in terms of PT (and going to class, but in this context, much as the whole fake classes thing infuriates me, isn't relevant) and they've been plenty successful. There's one in Lawrence, Kansas too. Billy Donovan's back-to-back Florida champs were built off the growth of Corey Brewer and Jo Noah as sometimes overmatched freshmen. Rick Pitino takes a different appraoch, particularly with bigs. Izzo uses PT to develop players.

Ks the best that ever coached college basketball. That doesn't make him perfect. It doesn't mean he can't improve. Managing and developing a larger rotation and using game time as part of the player development cycle is something other coaches -- even coaches who run "elite organizations" like ours with comparable if not better results -- do better than K. If Bolden goes, it won't be the first player that philosophy has cost us, but he's certainly the most talented, and promises to leave our roster with a giant darned hole. I think not getting Bolden consistent run hurt us this year, and if Marcus is gone, will hurt us more next year.

Yep, I think Bolden looked at Jeter, and said I don't want to waste another year with this short rotation.

kAzE
04-03-2017, 10:37 AM
Damn, reading this thread, you'd have no idea that we are literally 2 years removed from winning a national title with 3 OAD freshmen starters. So much negativity and criticism . . .

We were trying to win the national championship this year. We're trying to win it every year. The non-conference schedule is when we develop players. After that, it's about winning, and if you're not helping us win, you're not going to play. That's how it's always been at Duke. If this is the cost of that philosophy, then so be it.

If Marques believes he can help us win next year, then he would be smart to stay at Duke. If not, good luck at your next stop.

flyingdutchdevil
04-03-2017, 10:38 AM
Yep, I think Bolden looked at Jeter, and said I don't want to waste another year with this short rotation.

Bingo. Especially if you're a big. If you can become an Amile or a Wendall Carter, there are so many minutes to be played. If not, good luck.

BD80
04-03-2017, 10:39 AM
I wish him the best either way, but I am always surprised when players leave when there should be open spots in the rotation the following year. ...

I'm sure that if I came in as the #11 recruit in the rsci, with expectations of being a one and done, then I would have to reevaluate my situation if I only scored 16 field goals the entire season. I can only hope that he is discussing his situation and his concerns with the coaches and not with some handlers or one of those shady uncles that often seem to come out of the woodwork.

This is the strange part. He was highly ranked in a class that was considered to be one of the better classes in memory. A lot of this year's freshmen will be worthwhile lottery picks.

There is not nearly the depth of talent in the 2017 class, which means that the 2018 draft will not be nearly as deep, and there will be fewer quality lottery picks. By transferring, Bolden is effectively taking himself out of the 2018 draft - passing up a real possibility for being a high draft pick, even if on just potential.

I wonder if Vrankovich has been playing better in practice and earning more praise from coaches for work ethic, leaving Bolden to entertain doubts. I wish he would talk to Luke, and take on the challenge in a similar fashion, springboarding to an AA season.

flyingdutchdevil
04-03-2017, 10:44 AM
Damn, reading this thread, you'd have no idea that we are literally 2 years removed from winning a national title with 3 OAD freshmen starters. So much negativity and criticism . . .

There is some criticism and negativity, but I think it's slightly warranted given how we've potentially lost ALL of our big men minus Vrank and Javin, two players who played a combine 186 minutes this year. It's pretty crazy.

Also, it's frustrating that the school down the road has this factory of big men who buy into the system year after year. It would be nice if that school down the road had a mass exodus of guards and wings, for instance...

flyingdutchdevil
04-03-2017, 10:46 AM
This is the strange part. He was highly ranked in a class that was considered to be one of the better classes in memory. A lot of this year's freshmen will be worthwhile lottery picks.

There is not nearly the depth of talent in the 2017 class, which means that the 2018 draft will not be nearly as deep, and there will be fewer quality lottery picks. By transferring, Bolden is effectively taking himself out of the 2018 draft - passing up a real possibility for being a high draft pick, even if on just potential.

I wonder if Vrankovich has been playing better in practice and earning more praise from coaches for work ethic, leaving Bolden to entertain doubts. I wish he would talk to Luke, and take on the challenge in a similar fashion, springboarding to an AA season.

It can also mean that Bamba is highly leaning towards Duke. But I want a sophomore Bolden over a freshman Bamba...

elvis14
04-03-2017, 10:47 AM
Damn, reading this thread, you'd have no idea that we are literally 2 years removed from winning a national title with 3 OAD freshmen starters. So much negativity and criticism . . .

I see this often on DBR. The 2015 championship used as an excuse to claim all is well and that OAD is an OK strategy. I loved what happened that year. At the same time we may have just happened to get the right combination of players to make an unlikely run. Generally, it seems as though having a very heavy reliance on freshman makes it difficult to consistently contend for championships. This year we won the ACC championship but exited the NCAA's early. I don't know what the solution is in today's college game but I do know that 2015 was likely a nice anomaly...and even then we relied on more than the 4 freshman (Hi, Quinn).

Seeing Jeter exit and if Bolden follows, it's quite concerning because I think a good mix of experienced players and OAD freshman talent is how we are going to reach our highest potential in today's NCAA basketball. Players like Bolden and Jeter could help bring stability, particularly on the defensive end.

DavidBenAkiva
04-03-2017, 10:49 AM
Here's a look at select players (I didn't include guys that were not in the top 150 or so recruits) that transferred from top schools across the country:

Arizona: Craig Victor (4-star PF), Elliot Pitts (3-4 star SG), Justin Simon, (4-5 star SG)
Florida: Alex Murphy (4-star SF and former Duke transfer), Brandon Francis-Ramirez (4-star SG), Braxton Ogbueze (4-star PG), DeVon Walker, (3-star SF),
Kansas: Anrio Adams (3-4 star SG), Conor Frankamp (4-star PG), Zach Peters (3-star PF), Andrew White (4-star SG)
Kentucky: Marcus Lee (4-5 star PF), Charles Matthews (4-star SG)
Louisville: Akoy Agau (3-4 Star PF), Shaqquan Aaron (4-5 star SG)
Michigan: Kameron Chatman (4-5 star SF), Mark Donnal (4-star PF)
Michigan State: Javon Bess (3-4 star SG), Marvin Clark, Jr. (3 star SG), Kenny Kaminski (4-5 star PF)
Ohio State Daniel Giddens (4-star C), Austin Grandstaff (4-star SG), A.j. Harris (4-star PG)
Syracuse: B.J. Johnson (3-4 Star SF), Kaleb Joseph (4-star PG)
Virginia: Darius Thompson (3-star PG), Marial Shayok (3-star SG), B.J. Stith (3-4 star SG)
UCLA: Noah Allen (3-Star SF), Wannah Bail (3-4 star PF) [Note: How could you not predict that Wannah Bail was going to transfer at some point...)

I could look at other programs, but I think the point has been made. Successful teams have a lot of transfers. Duke has a lot of transfers, too, and maybe more 4- and 5-star guys are leaving the program than other schools. But we also have more 4- and 5-star guys on the roster. This is the norm in college basketball at the moment. North Carolina is a bit odd in that it's current roster has been remarkably stable the past couple of season. Duke's roster was remarkably stable in the late-2000s. Things go in cycles. Hopefully, Duke will find more roster stability in the near future.

kAzE
04-03-2017, 10:52 AM
There is some criticism and negativity, but I think it's slightly warranted given how we've potentially lost ALL of our big men minus Vrank and Javin, two players who played a combine 186 minutes this year. It's pretty crazy.

Also, it's frustrating that the school down the road has this factory of big men who buy into the system year after year. It would be nice if that school down the road had a mass exodus of guards and wings, for instance...

And yet, even in the worst case scenario, we would have Wendell Carter, Vrank, and Javin next year, which would be a solid, if not spectacular front court. Yes, it's not ideal, but if we got even 1 of Knox or Bamba, that becomes a pretty good front court, and probably one of the better ones in the ACC. It would suck to lose Bolden, but it wouldn't be the end of the world, either.

kAzE
04-03-2017, 10:55 AM
I see this often on DBR. The 2015 championship used as an excuse to claim all is well and that OAD is an OK strategy.

Okay . . . I guess panicking all the time is the preferred attitude? Dude, we're Duke university. We haven't had a losing season in like 22 years. We've been to more final Fours and played in more NCAA tournament games than ANYONE in the past 30 years. Relax. Coach K will adjust, like he always does.

It's not like anything we post here affects the team at all, so slinging negativity literally doesn't help anyone.

FadedTackyShirt
04-03-2017, 10:58 AM
Yeah, this is why I argued against those who said "let's not go the grad transfer route" back in the spring of 2013. There are a finite number of years left with Coach K at the helm. I don't want any season to not be maximizing his chances of another title. That was 4 years and a back surgery ago (crazy!), meaning he's that much closer to the end of the line. And who knows what will happen when Capel or someone else takes the helm?

If we do lose Bolden and don't strike it rich with at least two of the three recruits we're working on, I think we will need to go the grad transfer route. Perhaps more than one grad transfer.

Grad student transfers can be a fix, but they are also tricky, especially for Duke.

Was likely easy to find and admit Amile to a Duke masters program, even though it was unplanned. Likely same scenario for Grayson, should he return. Also could have worked for Obi, but he didn't project as a rotation player and chose to leave.

As noted elsewhere, the majority of Duke grad programs are focused on PhDs with not a ton of masters programs. It's why guys like Connette, Ben Patrick, or Sirk can flip to Fresno State, Delaware, ECU, or Southern Miss easily. Those schools offer more masters programs than elite research universities.

Thanks to self induced quirky conference athletic eligibility rules (4 to play 4, no redshirts), Ivy athletes are the only potential grad transfers schools can target early. Generally very good students, so minimal problems contributing in grad school classrooms, but likely wouldn't crack the rotation at Duke.

Jordan Mathews is a nice player, who starts for the 'Zags as a grad student, but he wouldn't have been a Duke rotation player this season ahead of Grayson, Luke, and Frank.

Fuqua's one year MMS program would be ideal for grad transfers, but getting into the grad school transfer game would take some planning and flexibility by Duke and may only be a short term bridge at the end of K's run.

daveduke76
04-03-2017, 10:59 AM
It's easy for fans to forget, but the fact that Duke Basketball is an ELITE organization means we don't do things the way they're done at other places. I mean, think about your images for this in other contexts - high powered law firms, top media organizations, executive suites. Expectations are high there, and given what Duke basketball offers, it has those expectations as well. This really isn't the place to come if you want to learn on the job, especially if you're learning effort and attention to detail. Every coaching philosophy involves trade offs, and like many I'm envious when I see teams that are deep, or see marginal players emerge as they get playing time (usually by necessity) and grow in confidence. But, that's not going to be Duke.

Playing for Duke is a huge opportunity, and I'm sure players are warned that while we will love and support you, that love and support does not come in the form of playing time that is not earned through sustained performance that lives up to Duke standards. You don't go to work at Goldman Sachs coming out of B-School and expect to get a fine quality of life with no stress. And you don't go to Duke and expect to get time on the floor if you're not living up to Coach K's standards. As fans we fall in love with "our guys" and root hard for them, but within the program there's a lot more to it than that.

In Bolden's case, evidently Coach K felt that Bolden didn't earn what he apparently expected. Maybe a different kind of coach would have gotten more out of Bolden by putting him out on the floor and seeing if he can figure out in a game what he's not figuring out in practice, but Coach K isn't exactly one to hand out rewards in advance. We dwell on the examples where we feel like Coach K's philosophy cost us one that either got away or never panned out, but it's less obvious how much better he's made the players that DID thrive in that system. His system costs us those other guys, but if you look at results over the years, I'd say it's been a pretty good deal.

I was wondering if when Coach K was out with his back surgery and then banded the players from the locker room if it was, in part, a reaction to Bolden. Didn't he have one or two games where he played OK during K's absence?

Troublemaker
04-03-2017, 11:00 AM
Damn, reading this thread, you'd have no idea that we are literally 2 years removed from winning a national title with 3 OAD freshmen starters. So much negativity and criticism . . .

We were trying to win the national championship this year. We're trying to win it every year. The non-conference schedule is when we develop players. After that, it's about winning, and if you're not helping us win, you're not going to play. That's how it's always been at Duke. If this is the cost of that philosophy, then so be it.

If Marques believes he can help us win next year, then he would be smart to stay at Duke. If not, good luck at your next stop.

I'm still very positive about the future.


This is the strange part. He was highly ranked in a class that was considered to be one of the better classes in memory. A lot of this year's freshmen will be worthwhile lottery picks.

There is not nearly the depth of talent in the 2017 class, which means that the 2018 draft will not be nearly as deep, and there will be fewer quality lottery picks. By transferring, Bolden is effectively taking himself out of the 2018 draft - passing up a real possibility for being a high draft pick, even if on just potential.

I wonder if Vrankovich has been playing better in practice and earning more praise from coaches for work ethic, leaving Bolden to entertain doubts. I wish he would talk to Luke, and take on the challenge in a similar fashion, springboarding to an AA season.

Luke played 27 mpg as a freshman. Marques was the 3rd-string center playing 1 or 2 minutes (if at all) towards the end of the season.


I see this often on DBR. The 2015 championship used as an excuse to claim all is well and that OAD is an OK strategy. I loved what happened that year. At the same time we may have just happened to get the right combination of players to make an unlikely run. Generally, it seems as though having a very heavy reliance on freshman makes it difficult to consistently contend for championships. This year we won the ACC championship but exited the NCAA's early. I don't know what the solution is in today's college game but I do know that 2015 was likely a nice anomaly...and even then we relied on more than the 4 freshman (Hi, Quinn).

Seeing Jeter exit and if Bolden follows, it's quite concerning because I think a good mix of experienced players and OAD freshman talent is how we are going to reach our highest potential in today's NCAA basketball. Players like Bolden and Jeter could help bring stability, particularly on the defensive end.

2015 was the youngest of our recent teams, though. 2017 was a veteran team and if our big man OADs had been able to play more minutes (whether you blame Coach or injuries or a combo), Duke would've likely been better, i.e. getting younger would've been better.

Interestingly, starting 3 frosh, a soph(Frank?), and a senior (Grayson?) would give us the exact mix that 2015 had next season.

Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15
04-03-2017, 11:04 AM
Grad student transfers can be a fix, but they are also tricky, especially for Duke.

Was likely easy to find and admit Amile to a Duke masters program, even though it was unplanned. Likely same scenario for Grayson, should he return. Also could have worked for Obi, but he didn't project as a rotation player and chose to leave.

As noted elsewhere, the majority of Duke grad programs are focused on PhDs with not a ton of masters programs. It's why guys like Connette, Ben Patrick, or Sirk can flip to Fresno State, Delaware, ECU, or Southern Miss easily. Those schools offer more masters programs than elite research universities.

Thanks to self induced quirky conference athletic eligibility rules (4 to play 4, no redshirts), Ivy athletes are the only potential grad transfers schools can target early. Generally very good students, so minimal problems contributing in grad school classrooms, but likely wouldn't crack the rotation at Duke.

Jordan Mathews is a nice player, who starts for the 'Zags as a grad student, but he wouldn't have been a Duke rotation player this season ahead of Grayson, Luke, and Frank.

Fuqua's one year MMS program would be ideal for grad transfers, but getting into the grad school transfer game would take some planning and flexibility by Duke and may only be a short term bridge at the end of K's run.

People seem to be suddenly very caught up in the academic part of grad school transfers. As I understand it, it is a well-meaning loophole in the NCAA system that is now more of a way for a player to get one last year of eligibility with an immediate transfer.

SlapTheFloor
04-03-2017, 11:09 AM
I hope he reconsiders. Bolden didn't come in quite as polished as many of us hope or expected, but I still think he has a lot of potential. And I hope he realizes that potential in a Duke uniform.

flyingdutchdevil
04-03-2017, 11:13 AM
And yet, even in the worst case scenario, we would have Wendell Carter, Vrank, and Javin next year, which would be a solid, if not spectacular front court. Yes, it's not ideal, but if we got even 1 of Knox or Bamba, that becomes a pretty good front court, and probably one of the better ones in the ACC. It would suck to lose Bolden, but it wouldn't be the end of the world, either.

kaze- I'm in general agreement with you. Carter is a dynamite player. Vrank will hopefully be part of the rotation (let's face it; with Coach K, you never know who is part of the rotation). And I have a ton of faith in DeLaurier, even if he's a few years from maturity.

The frustration lies in the fact that Coach K has arguably never had a plethora of big men riches until this year. Well, he certainly hasn't since 2001 (arguably longer, but I don't know the roster history pre-2001 as well as most). I think a big part of the reason for lack of big men depth is the short rotations and use of spread 4s that Coach K loves and recruits realize this. As a result, we have 2-3 bigs tops, at least one of which isn't a highly touted-player (MP1, MP3, Zoubek, David McClure, etc).

But this year changed that. We had 4 McAA, including a fifth-year senior with defensive chops, a sophomore who had a great summer, the #1 recruit in the country with knee issues, and the #11 recruit who is the longest player ever in Duke history. And next year, we have zero of those players (1 guaranteed to not be there). IMO, we had waaaaaaaaaaay too much frontcourt depth that at least 2 players were nearly guaranteed not to play.

kAzE
04-03-2017, 11:14 AM
I'm still very positive about the future. 2015 was the youngest of our recent teams, though. 2017 was a veteran team and if our big man OADs had been able to play more minutes (whether you blame Coach or injuries or a combo), Duke would've likely been better, i.e. getting younger would've been better.

Interestingly, starting 3 frosh, a soph(Frank?), and a senior (Grayson?) would give us the exact mix that 2015 had next season.

I like your outlook. And I would add that both of our previous 2 championships came after tumultuous offseasons in which we had a bunch of departures. In the offseason of 2009, we lost both Gerald Henderson and Elliot Williams sooner than we expected, as well as Greg Paulus and Dave McClure to graduation. In 2014, we lost Jabari Parker, Rodney Hood, a couple of senior captains in Tyler Thornton and Josh Hairston, and then Rasheed Sulaimon in the middle of the 2014-15 season. I'm sure we had plenty of "the sky is falling" posts that summer, too.

The point is, you never know what will happen, but it's just easier to have positive outlook, because we're Duke and we're always good. At the top of college basketball, everyone has talent. At that point, it's less about amassing more talent, and more about finding the right mix of personalities who mesh perfectly. Sometimes, that means losing a couple of guys. Do we win the national title in 2010 if Gerald Henderson was on that team? Or how about Rasheed Sulaimon on the 2015 team? It's impossible to say for sure, but I'm glad things worked out the way they did.

Don't give up on next season 7 months before it's even started.

uh_no
04-03-2017, 11:16 AM
Certainly understand the deference to Coach K's handling of the program however he sees fit, but does anyone think it can be good for recruiting to see the rate of transferring among highly rated players in recent years? Seems to me if I were a top recruit with plenty of options, it would be hard not to worry about things "just not working out" at Duke for some unanticipated reason. Do other top schools have similar rates of departures among talented kids? Maybe so. And more importantly maybe this is not true with respect to Bolden...

amazing how much our opinion of recruits' opinions of duke can change in just a year!

westwall
04-03-2017, 11:16 AM
So far as I can tell from all of the many posts above there are reliable reports that Bolden is considering a transfer and may or may not decide to leave, but no confirmation that a final decision has been made. If he leaves, I will be disappointed, but I will refrain from opining on what he will do -- and certainly will not opine that he should leave -- because I don't know and don't wish to help push him to a decision he may later regret. Nor do I think it appropriate to opine on whether he would/will/would not achieve starter minutes if he stays; that is something only the staff really knows. So I will cool it until reliable and final confirmation --pro or con -- appears.


Because there still is no confirmation of a transfer vel non, I am repeating my earlier post, which still seems appropriate.

Kedsy
04-03-2017, 11:18 AM
...it's quite concerning because I think a good mix of experienced players and OAD freshman talent is how we are going to reach our highest potential in today's NCAA basketball.

But wait, isn't that exactly what we had this year? Maybe this year was the anomaly.

FerryFor50
04-03-2017, 11:19 AM
I think Bolden has a ton of potential and would have been a key part of Duke's rotation next season.

Which is why I don't understand the notion of transferring; he loses a year. Why not stick it out here and get the notoriety that comes with playing at Duke? This is Derryck Thornton 2.0, without the Tank Thornton spin.

scottdude8
04-03-2017, 11:22 AM
Let me first preface this by saying I completely acknowledge that nothing is a done deal here, from all the reporting I've seen. I'm still holding out hope that Bolden returns, and we could have a twin-towers type lineup with him and Wendell Carter next year, which would be a lot of fun to watch (I'm a sucker for a classic post-up player).

That being said, if Bolden does transfer it would be the one decision so far this season I'd be sincerely disappointed/frustrated in, from both a fan's perspective and trying to understand things from the player's perspective. Unless something went on behind the scenes that we aren't privy to, it seems like Bolden's struggles truly were a case of bad luck with injuries and illness, and how that prevented him from creating a role for himself in the team identity as that finally started to develop. There IS a definite role for him on next year's team that is his to lose, again unless there's something else going on here that we aren't aware of. Especially as a guy who has clear NBA aspirations, transferring wouldn't seem to make the most sense.

However, I do always find it helpful to draw parallels to other situations/players we know about in these situations to help us try to understand what the player might be going through. The first case I'll point to is that of Michael Gbinije, which I've mentioned often with regards to Chase Jeter. Gbinije was a guy who seemed to be finding a role for himself in the rotation early in ACC season (like Marques did) but somewhat inexplicably fell out of the rotation soon after (Marques didn't fall completely out of the rotation until he got sick, but his minutes were minuscule towards the end of the season). In Gbinije's case, this was because he had made his intentions to leave the program clear, and K decided to use his minutes to develop other players. It's a distinct possibility that something along these lines happened with either/both of Chase and Marques. Obviously, I hope that's not the case as I always prefer when players leave the program on good terms (which allows the fun of continuing to root for them on whatever team they end up on).

Another player we might want to consider as a comparison here, but sort of in the opposite direction, is Rodney Hood. Hood had a great freshman year at Mississippi State but obviously wasn't content, transferred to Duke, had an amazing RS Sophomore year, and became a first round NBA pick (where he's playing at a highly efficient level right now... he might be playing the best of any of the young Blue Devils currently in the league). Marques might see himself in a similar situation and think that another program might provide him the opportunity to show his skills better than Duke, to the point that losing a year might improve his draft stock enough to merit that.

The final player it's worth thinking about here is Willie Cauley-Stein, who despite being a Wildcat is a guy whose career path I was sort of hoping Marques would follow. Willie was a top 25 recruit who struggled with the speed of the college game in his first year, became a major contributor his sophomore year, and by his junior year was one of the best players in the country and became a first round pick. There are a lot of clear parallels between the type of players Willie and Marques are, and I was hoping we might get a similar career trajectory from Marques.

In my mind, one of the three situations described by the three case studies above is probably what we're dealing with here. Obviously, I'm hoping the last case is what ends up happening, cause I think Marques still has the potential to be a major force as a Blue Devil. I hope Coach K is putting the full court press on to keep him and show him what his role could be as a sophomore.

Nevertheless, as a board I think it's always good to learn from history when it comes to these transferring situations/rumors/etc. Just something to keep in mind.

NM Duke Fan
04-03-2017, 11:23 AM
Glad to see a moderator changed the thread title to "Considering!" It is after all still an unknown, perhaps to everybody involved?

duke79
04-03-2017, 11:33 AM
I like your outlook. And I would add that both of our previous 2 championships came after tumultuous offseasons in which we had a bunch of departures. In the offseason of 2009, we lost both Gerald Henderson and Elliot Williams sooner than we expected, as well as Greg Paulus and Dave McClure to graduation. In 2014, we lost Jabari Parker, Rodney Hood, a couple of senior captains in Tyler Thornton and Josh Hairston, and then Rasheed Sulaimon in the middle of the 2014-15 season. I'm sure we had plenty of "the sky is falling" posts that summer, too.

The point is, you never know what will happen, but it's just easier to have positive outlook, because we're Duke and we're always good. At the top of college basketball, everyone has talent. At that point, it's less about amassing more talent, and more about finding the right mix of personalities who mesh perfectly. Sometimes, that means losing a couple of guys. Do we win the national title in 2010 if Gerald Henderson was on that team? Or how about Rasheed Sulaimon on the 2015 team? It's impossible to say for sure, but I'm glad things worked out the way they did.

Don't give up on next season 7 months before it's even started.

AMEN!!

Kedsy
04-03-2017, 11:33 AM
The first case I'll point to is that of Michael Gbinije, which I've mentioned often with regards to Chase Jeter. Gbinije was a guy who seemed to be finding a role for himself in the rotation early in ACC season (like Marques did) but somewhat inexplicably fell out of the rotation soon after (Marques didn't fall completely out of the rotation until he got sick, but his minutes were minuscule towards the end of the season). In Gbinije's case, this was because he had made his intentions to leave the program clear, and K decided to use his minutes to develop other players.

I'm not sure you're right about Gbinije. He played a total of 19 minutes in ACC games, with a max of 6 minutes, which he did twice, exactly a month apart (1/19 and 2/19). In other words, he was never in the rotation during the ACC season (unlike Marques Bolden, who averaged 12 mpg for the first six games of January this season). Gbinije also continued to play a minute here or a minute there all the way to the end of the season, so if he did make his intentions of transferring clear at an early date, Coach K handled him differently than he handled Chase Jeter.

Troublemaker
04-03-2017, 11:35 AM
I like your outlook. And I would add that both of our previous 2 championships came after tumultuous offseasons in which we had a bunch of departures. In the offseason of 2009, we lost both Gerald Henderson and Elliot Williams sooner than we expected, as well as Greg Paulus and Dave McClure to graduation. In 2014, we lost Jabari Parker, Rodney Hood, a couple of senior captains in Tyler Thornton and Josh Hairston, and then Rasheed Sulaimon in the middle of the 2014-15 season. I'm sure we had plenty of "the sky is falling" posts that summer, too.

The point is, you never know what will happen, but it's just easier to have positive outlook, because we're Duke and we're always good. At the top of college basketball, everyone has talent. At that point, it's less about amassing more talent, and more about finding the right mix of personalities who mesh perfectly. Sometimes, that means losing a couple of guys. Do we win the national title in 2010 if Gerald Henderson was on that team? Or how about Rasheed Sulaimon on the 2015 team? It's impossible to say for sure, but I'm glad things worked out the way they did.

Don't give up on next season 7 months before it's even started.

Exactly. Both 2010 and 2015 were supposed to be too shallow to compete for championships (in 2015, that was after Sheed's dismissal) and yet Coach K cobbled together pretty good 8-man rotations both seasons, with all 8 guys making valuable contributions in the championship runs.

By contrast, in 2014 and 2017, Duke was supposed to be super-duper deep and yet many fans were very disappointed by those two seasons and Coach K's too-short rotations.

Maybe the formula - unless Coach K changes his subbing habits -- is to have good health and between 8 and 10 scholarship players and the accompanying fan concern over lack of bodies with so few scholarship players. Then, Coach K will surprise with valuable bench contributions in that scenario.

I wrote repeatedly in the previous offseason -- probably to ad nauseam for some -- that Duke for the first time ever would have 13 scholarship players (and that's not counting JRob as a preferred walk-on). I wrote that it would make a TON of sense for rotations to expand if you have the full allotment of scholarship players. But if you end up playing 6.5 players in your rotation, then what we are experiencing this offseason isn't surprising. Coach K reaped what he sowed.

elvis14
04-03-2017, 11:37 AM
Okay . . . I guess panicking all the time is the preferred attitude? Dude, we're Duke university. We haven't had a losing season in like 22 years. We've been to more final Fours and played in more NCAA tournament games than ANYONE in the past 30 years. Relax. Coach K will adjust, like he always does.

It's not like anything we post here affects the team at all, so slinging negativity literally doesn't help anyone.

Come on now, kAzE, I didn't say we should panic. But I think it's valid to show concern and have reasonable discussions that include the cons. I agree about just slinging negativity but raising valid concerns and discussing the cons (in addition to the pros) of things like our recruiting strategy and the good old, short bench should be OK and not just treated as irrelevant because we won in 2015. With our coach and the talent we bring in, the floor is going to be fairly high....it's a consistently high ceiling that we seek.


But wait, isn't that exactly what we had this year? Maybe this year was the anomaly.

Kedsy, I'd love it if it worked out that way. This year is always going to be a bit of an anomaly because of all the injuries (to all classes).

slower
04-03-2017, 11:51 AM
I like your outlook. And I would add that both of our previous 2 championships came after tumultuous offseasons in which we had a bunch of departures. In the offseason of 2009, we lost both Gerald Henderson and Elliot Williams sooner than we expected, as well as Greg Paulus and Dave McClure to graduation. In 2014, we lost Jabari Parker, Rodney Hood, a couple of senior captains in Tyler Thornton and Josh Hairston, and then Rasheed Sulaimon in the middle of the 2014-15 season. I'm sure we had plenty of "the sky is falling" posts that summer, too.
One difference, though, is that (after 2009 and 2014) we hadn't just come off years where we were expecting to do VERY, VERY well, and were the heavy pre-season favorite to win it all.

So the mindset of some might be different this time, since many are in a state of extreme disappointment to begin with. Just sayin'...

NM Duke Fan
04-03-2017, 11:56 AM
Exactly. Both 2010 and 2015 were supposed to be too shallow to compete for championships (in 2015, that was after Sheed's dismissal) and yet Coach K cobbled together pretty good 8-man rotations both seasons, with all 8 guys making valuable contributions in the championship runs.

By contrast, in 2014 and 2017, Duke was supposed to be super-duper deep and yet many fans were very disappointed by those two seasons and Coach K's too-short rotations.

Maybe the formula - unless Coach K changes his subbing habits -- is to have good health and between 8 and 10 scholarship players and the accompanying fan concern over lack of bodies with so few scholarship players. Then, Coach K will surprise with valuable bench contributions in that scenario.

I wrote repeatedly in the previous offseason -- probably to ad nauseam for some -- that Duke for the first time ever would have 13 scholarship players (and that's not counting JRob as a preferred walk-on). I wrote that it would make a TON of sense for rotations to expand if you have the full allotment of scholarship players. But if you end up playing 6.5 players in your rotation, then what we are experiencing this offseason isn't surprising. Coach K reaped what he sowed.

Are you trying to be a Troublemaker around here? (Just kidding, just kidding, a good, thought-provoking post in my mind).

AtlDuke72
04-03-2017, 12:13 PM
Maybe he needs a coach that didn't make him a 3rd-string center playing no minutes.


I have been reading posts all year about how good Bolden supposedly is based on how he was evaluated in high school. One and done ! Now this posts says the coach just made him a third string center. Really??? Duke needed him to be a player all year, especially when Jefferson was out. Do those making claim to how he is an NBA talent really think that Coach K just stuck him on the bench? Same with Jeter ? What I saw was that Bolden fouled immediately and could not guard anybody. Also did not see the offense. Do you really think that he was so much better in practice??? Good grief. I have nothing against Bolden or Jeter. I hope that Bolden stays at Duke, and improves to the point that he lives up to at least part of the hype. The other criticism that was leveled all year was that Coach K was burning out the players and the failure to develop a longer bench would prevent any post season success. Four wins in four days would seem to have blown a hole in that theory. Maybe, just maybe, the coaches know what they are doing.

kAzE
04-03-2017, 12:20 PM
One difference, though, is that (after 2009 and 2014) we hadn't just come off years where we were expecting to do VERY, VERY well, and were the heavy pre-season favorite to win it all.

So the mindset of some might be different this time, since many are in a state of extreme disappointment to begin with. Just sayin'...

I'd kind of disagree here . . . losing to a #14 seed Mercer in the round of 64 in 2014 with a team that featured Jabari Parker and Rodney Hood could be considered a pretty big disappointment. Our team was this year was probably more talented, but at least we lost to a final 4 team in the round of 32. Mercer was pretty inexplicable.

killerleft
04-03-2017, 12:44 PM
Exactly. Both 2010 and 2015 were supposed to be too shallow to compete for championships (in 2015, that was after Sheed's dismissal) and yet Coach K cobbled together pretty good 8-man rotations both seasons, with all 8 guys making valuable contributions in the championship runs.

By contrast, in 2014 and 2017, Duke was supposed to be super-duper deep and yet many fans were very disappointed by those two seasons and Coach K's too-short rotations.

Maybe the formula - unless Coach K changes his subbing habits -- is to have good health and between 8 and 10 scholarship players and the accompanying fan concern over lack of bodies with so few scholarship players. Then, Coach K will surprise with valuable bench contributions in that scenario.

I wrote repeatedly in the previous offseason -- probably to ad nauseam for some -- that Duke for the first time ever would have 13 scholarship players (and that's not counting JRob as a preferred walk-on). I wrote that it would make a TON of sense for rotations to expand if you have the full allotment of scholarship players. But if you end up playing 6.5 players in your rotation, then what we are experiencing this offseason isn't surprising. Coach K reaped what he sowed.

He should have sowed a few less injuries. What a maroon he is.

MChambers
04-03-2017, 12:46 PM
I have been reading posts all year about how good Bolden supposedly is based on how he was evaluated in high school. One and done ! Now this posts says the coach just made him a third string center. Really??? Duke needed him to be a player all year, especially when Jefferson was out. Do those making claim to how he is an NBA talent really think that Coach K just stuck him on the bench? Same with Jeter ? What I saw was that Bolden fouled immediately and could not guard anybody. Also did not see the offense. Do you really think that he was so much better in practice??? Good grief. I have nothing against Bolden or Jeter. I hope that Bolden stays at Duke, and improves to the point that he lives up to at least part of the hype. The other criticism that was leveled all year was that Coach K was burning out the players and the failure to develop a longer bench would prevent any post season success. Four wins in four days would seem to have blown a hole in that theory. Maybe, just maybe, the coaches know what they are doing.

According to sports-reference.com, Bolden committed a foul every five minutes, which is very high. For whatever reason, he seemed to be in Chris Burgess/Shavlik Randolph territory. I thought he was going to be a big contributor, but after the injury he never seemed to be in the flow. I hope he turns it around, but it's hard to argue K should have played him more, based on his game performance.

Still, I hope he decides to stay at Duke. Mason Plumlee had a similar freshman year and ended up being an All-American and a darned good NBA player. I think Bolden could do the same.

Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15
04-03-2017, 12:48 PM
[QUOTE=Troublemaker;970925]Maybe he needs a coach that didn't make him a 3rd-string center playing no minutes.

I have been reading posts all year about how good Bolden supposedly is based on how he was evaluated in high school. One and done ! Now this posts says the coach just made him a third string center. Really??? Duke needed him to be a player all year, especially when Jefferson was out. Do those making claim to how he is an NBA talent really think that Coach K just stuck him on the bench? Same with Jeter ? What I saw was that Bolden fouled immediately and could not guard anybody. Also did not see the offense. Do you really think that he was so much better in practice??? Good grief. I have nothing against Bolden or Jeter. I hope that Bolden stays at Duke, and improves to the point that he lives up to at least part of the hype. The other criticism that was leveled all year was that Coach K was burning out the players and the failure to develop a longer bench would prevent any post season success. Four wins in four days would seem to have blown a hole in that theory. Maybe, just maybe, the coaches know what they are doing.

In the UNC semifinal game in which Bolden went into the game and I commented to my neighbor "extra big body to go at UNC's bigs, but I don't know if he is quick enough."

He proceded to get two fouls in 8 seconds before getting yanked.

Don't kid yourselves folks, K knew what he was doing in regards to playing time with Bolden. He may have developed into the asset that he showed a bit of, but he wasn't that this year.

Matches
04-03-2017, 12:49 PM
The staff knew going into the season that there was a very high likelihood that both Giles and Bolden would be gone after the 2017 season. They probably would have guessed Bolden to the NBA rather than transferring but I can pretty well assure you they weren't assuming he'd be around for the 2018 season.

Obi wasn't being counted on as a player.

The only unexpected departure, then, is Jeter, which the staff has known about for some time. We're one guy short. They'll figure it out.

flyingdutchdevil
04-03-2017, 12:50 PM
Exactly. Both 2010 and 2015 were supposed to be too shallow to compete for championships (in 2015, that was after Sheed's dismissal) and yet Coach K cobbled together pretty good 8-man rotations both seasons, with all 8 guys making valuable contributions in the championship runs.

By contrast, in 2014 and 2017, Duke was supposed to be super-duper deep and yet many fans were very disappointed by those two seasons and Coach K's too-short rotations.

Maybe the formula - unless Coach K changes his subbing habits -- is to have good health and between 8 and 10 scholarship players and the accompanying fan concern over lack of bodies with so few scholarship players. Then, Coach K will surprise with valuable bench contributions in that scenario.

I wrote repeatedly in the previous offseason -- probably to ad nauseam for some -- that Duke for the first time ever would have 13 scholarship players (and that's not counting JRob as a preferred walk-on). I wrote that it would make a TON of sense for rotations to expand if you have the full allotment of scholarship players. But if you end up playing 6.5 players in your rotation, then what we are experiencing this offseason isn't surprising. Coach K reaped what he sowed.

TM - you've convinced me of this argument. There is no legitimate reason Coach K needs 13 scholarships. Hell, he played 8-9 in the last Olympics, and that's with a bunch of All-Stars sitting on the bench for 98% of the games!

Coach K functions best with one legitimate big man, one stretch 4, and a back-up big who can play both the 4 and the 5. And anywhere between 3-10 dynamic guards ;).

It's why next year, I don't think Bamba is a necessity (but he sure would be nice to get). We have Carter, we'll have Knox (I'm convinced), and Vrank can spell either one (although Carter slides to the 4 if Vrank comes in). That, coupled with Jackson, White, Duval, Trent, and one of Kennard/Allen, is a very nice rotation.

killerleft
04-03-2017, 12:51 PM
One difference, though, is that (after 2009 and 2014) we hadn't just come off years where we were expecting to do VERY, VERY well, and were the heavy pre-season favorite to win it all.

So the mindset of some might be different this time, since many are in a state of extreme disappointment to begin with. Just sayin'...

Anybody who bought into the heavy favorite thing was setting themselves up for disappointment, even if we hadn't had some of the injuries drag out like they did. That was just a way for the national press to set US up for a fall. After all, there was no way to go but down, was there?

CDu
04-03-2017, 01:06 PM
Anybody who bought into the heavy favorite thing was setting themselves up for disappointment, even if we hadn't had some of the injuries drag out like they did. That was just a way for the national press to set US up for a fall. After all, there was no way to go but down, was there?

I disagree. I think if Giles is healthy or if Bolden is as good as expected, and we don't have the injury to Jefferson and Coach K, we would have very much resembled the great team that folks expected. But we weren't so fortunate on ANY of those fronts.

And even still, we were a top-10 team that won the ACC title and only lost in the NCAA to a Final Four team.

NM Duke Fan
04-03-2017, 01:09 PM
People often forget that Duke got involved with Karnowski very late in the process, after he became a bit more of a known quantity. But Karnowski decided he wanted to go a different route, where he had a genuine chance to start right away and as a classic back to the basket big man. I think it worked out much better for him as a fit. Each big considering a college program has to carefully weigh the various factors of a team's offesnive and defensive style, depth at the position, traditions of how bigs are used, how much hedging and rotation is required on defense and the learning curve for said skills, etc.

I hope Bolden stays and develops further towards his NBA and other goals, he did show some nice potential on defense for a stretch of a few games, where I thought he did a better job than Harry in that regards. Much potential as a rim protector, etc. Probably the hardest part of the learning curve has already been accomplished, maybe just a bit more patience regarding the injury setbacks and such, and he is ready to roll? But if not I wish for him his best probable future to his Dreams.

Pghdukie
04-03-2017, 01:31 PM
I'm waiting to see who from Duke is going to test the NBA waters - BUT NOT HIRE AN AGENT. I'm unsure of the time factor involved. Maybe someone on this board can help.

Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15
04-03-2017, 01:35 PM
I'm waiting to see who from Duke is going to test the NBA waters - BUT NOT HIRE AN AGENT. I'm unsure of the time factor involved. Maybe someone on this board can help.

Dates have been listed many times in other early entry threads. Bolden is considering a transfer, not the NBA.

Jeffrey
04-03-2017, 01:51 PM
I disagree. I think if Giles is healthy or if Bolden is as good as expected, and we don't have the injury to Jefferson and Coach K, we would have very much resembled the great team that folks expected. But we weren't so fortunate on ANY of those fronts.

And even still, we were a top-10 team that won the ACC title and only lost in the NCAA to a Final Four team.

I fully agree. I'd also add that Grayson was expected to have a much better season than he did. On paper, pre-season, we were better than the two teams playing tonight.

Edouble
04-03-2017, 01:52 PM
No one has yet suggested in this thread that Bolden may be contemplating a transfer because the staff has told him that Duke may not be the best fit for him.

I've seen it intimated that Bolden is considering a transfer and we (Duke, the coaching staff, the fans) want him to stay.

It could be that we have told him that we don't realistically see him cracking the rotation based on his performance, work ethic, improvement this past season, and based on the players we know that we have coming in and the players we think we have coming in... and now Bolden is thinking things through.

I personally like Bolden and want him to stay, but it may not be a clear case of him putting one foot out the door and the staff trying to get him to come back in the house.

flyingdutchdevil
04-03-2017, 01:55 PM
No one has yet suggested in this thread that Bolden may be contemplating a transfer because the staff has told him that Duke may not be the best fit for him.

I've seen it intimated that Bolden is considering a transfer and we (Duke, the coaching staff, the fans) want him to stay.

It could be that we have told him that we don't realistically see him cracking the rotation based on his performance, work ethic, improvement this past season, and based on the players we know that we have coming in and the players we think we have coming in... and now Bolden is thinking things through.

I personally like Bolden and want him to stay, but it may not be a clear case of him putting one foot out the door and the staff trying to get him to come back in the house.

This is a very good point. But if that's the case, then I put this one on the coaching staff. THEY initially recruited him and provided him a vision that clearly wasn't realistic.

Also, if Bolden transferred in isoluation, I would agree. But, coupled with Jeter, Thornton, and to a much lesser degree Obi, this is more than just Bolden.

ChillinDuke
04-03-2017, 01:58 PM
The Board has a tendency to drone on in micro-views of situations.

This Duke team had the chance to be really good. But certain things had to happen. A few of these things include: (1) establishment of a clear ball handler to run the offense (I purposely did not say PG here) and potentially push the ball in order to play an up-tempo style thereby using a deeper rotation, (2) a dynamic big man who can dominate inside, (3) health insomuch as it relates to a coherent core of players that understand roles and responsibilities.

None of these three things happened - at all.

(1) - We tried Grayson at the point with mixed results. His driving ability was partially sapped by injuries and partially sapped by referees blowing the whistle like a choo-choo train every time he made a move, thanks in major part to Grayson's own tripping incident(s). We moved to Frank at the point who was simply overmatched early in the season; he began to develop nicely as a scorer later on in the season but never quite had the handle or the vision to take the team where it needed to go. We tried Matt at the point, which was little more than a steadying hand to simply initiate the offense. Amile had some fleeting moments as a point-forward, but this was obviously not a desirable position for him as the often-dreamed-of jump shot was not actually a thing. We tried Luke at the point, but his emergence as a superb off-ball scorer made using him in a ballhandler capacity non-ideal.

So that was that for (1). It's not like we didn't try different things. At some point, it just didn't work out. Listen, sometimes you have a good hand but you still lose.

(2) - I'm looking here mainly at Harry and Marques. The two had pretty different issues, IMO. Harry's was completely injury-based. He never had the speed, reflexes/instincts, or offensive arsenal that we expected - and I think it's fair to say it was all based on his injuries. So we also tried Marques - now, more than a few options exist. The first is the transfer notification - if he did in fact tell the coaching staff that he planned to transfer, then the whole "Coach K didn't play him enough" argument is totally moot. The second is that the injuries affected him in a material way - similar to Harry's situation but less publicized. The third is that he simply wasn't ready to contribute - listen, it happens - there were moments when he looked great, but there were also moments when he looked utterly overmatched. The fourth is that Coach K totally mismanaged him. Give me those four options, and I'll tell you one that I definitely wouldn't bet on. That said, it could certainly be a combination of these - all four of these. And then, of course, there's Chase. And it seems with him that he made his transfer intentions known midseason.

(3) - I think this point is totally obvious, so I'm not sure what more to elaborate on here.

My point in this post is to emphasize that many things happened this year that got us to where we got to. And where we got to was still pretty darn good - ACC Champions and a #2 seed in the NCAAT. Yes, we ran into a buzzsaw Final Four team in their home state to end our tourney earlier than we would have preferred. But, while it was a turbulent, and frankly odd, season, we still accomplished quite a bit. So when people say "Coach K needs a PG" or "Coach K needs to play more players" - it's totally not fair to what was attempted this season. We tried five different PGs at various times, and even if you think that number is disingenuous, we absolutely tried three PGs. None of them worked. It's not like we didn't try to correct the issue. We tried playing more players - but for a variety of reasons, it didn't work.

None of these factors can be viewed singularly. It's not fair to do so. At all.

- Chillin

CDu
04-03-2017, 02:03 PM
I fully agree. I'd also add that Grayson was expected to have a much better season than he did. On paper, pre-season, we were better than the two teams playing tonight.

Yep. Allen - likely due to a combination of injuries and tripgate - wasn't himself this year. If he and Jefferson don't get hurt and we get anything close to expectations from EITHER of the two freshman bigs then we would have almost certainly won the ACC regular season, would likely have gotten the overall #1 seed.

Heck, even without ANY of those things we are a top-10 team and beat UNC 2 of 3.

Devils Librarian
04-03-2017, 02:06 PM
Grad student transfers can be a fix, but they are also tricky, especially for Duke.

Was likely easy to find and admit Amile to a Duke masters program, even though it was unplanned. Likely same scenario for Grayson, should he return. Also could have worked for Obi, but he didn't project as a rotation player and chose to leave.

As noted elsewhere, the majority of Duke grad programs are focused on PhDs with not a ton of masters programs. It's why guys like Connette, Ben Patrick, or Sirk can flip to Fresno State, Delaware, ECU, or Southern Miss easily. Those schools offer more masters programs than elite research universities.

Thanks to self induced quirky conference athletic eligibility rules (4 to play 4, no redshirts), Ivy athletes are the only potential grad transfers schools can target early. Generally very good students, so minimal problems contributing in grad school classrooms, but likely wouldn't crack the rotation at Duke.

Jordan Mathews is a nice player, who starts for the 'Zags as a grad student, but he wouldn't have been a Duke rotation player this season ahead of Grayson, Luke, and Frank.

Fuqua's one year MMS program would be ideal for grad transfers, but getting into the grad school transfer game would take some planning and flexibility by Duke and may only be a short term bridge at the end of K's run.

The first sentence I highlighted is only true if you are working in the physical sciences or in medicine. Duke offers quite a few Master's degrees in the humanities. Both Andre Dawkins and Amile Jefferson have done a Master's program at the Divinity School, which is no easy feet. I can't imagine what their schedules must have looked like.

CrazyNotCrazie
04-03-2017, 02:06 PM
In addition to the well discussed increase nationally in the number of players transferring, it also seems like the process is beginning earlier. I am curious if there is some pressure on players to announce their transfers earlier to make sure the available slots at potential landing schools stay open. It would not be ideal if a player announced he was transferring, only to find out that his desired school has already taken another transfer to fill his potential spot.

Similarly, there is the chicken and the egg dance between players on the roster wanting to know what incoming freshmen might sign, and the incoming freshmen wanting to know who will be staying on the roster. Plus the question of whether coaches are reaching out to recruit players before they have publicly stated their desire to transfer (I'm sure they are).

Like many other aspects of college basketball, I think the whole thing has gotten a bit slimy for my taste.

Olympic Fan
04-03-2017, 02:21 PM
Take this for what it's worth ... but I was told by a very good source today that while Bolden is considering leaving Duke, it is not close to a done deal.

Jeffrey
04-03-2017, 02:31 PM
Yep. Allen - likely due to a combination of injuries and tripgate - wasn't himself this year. If he and Jefferson don't get hurt and we get anything close to expectations from EITHER of the two freshman bigs then we would have almost certainly won the ACC regular season, would likely have gotten the overall #1 seed.

Heck, even without ANY of those things we are a top-10 team and beat UNC 2 of 3.

Yesiree. And, we might have been the best ever pre-season Duke team, if Thornton had returned. We sure could have used him, this past season, much more than initially expected. This may also be a good time to reflect on the fact Thornton's scholarship went to Bolden. It was not the coaching staff's original desire to load up on so many bigs.

mr. synellinden
04-03-2017, 02:36 PM
Take this for what it's worth ... but I was told by a very good source today that while Bolden is considering leaving Duke, it is not close to a done deal.

This just makes sense logically. Why would you leave and not be able to get to the NBA for an extra season. If Bolden stays, he is at worst the first big man off the bench (if he's behind Vrank next year he's just not an NBA prospect yet) and probably plays around 20 mins. a game - again, at worst. If he is behind Bamba and Carter, two guys who are likely to be picked in the top 8 picks, and he shows the potential that appeared to be there before he got hurt, he will get drafted in the first round next year. Plus he gets to practice against two NBA big men all season. If he can't get meaningful minutes next year even if he is not a starter, then he needs more time to work on his game anyway. And in his junior year (when he would be playing for SMU or TCU, for example) there will be nobody left at Duke to compete with other than Vrank and freshmen (Bagley?). If he can't start and showcase his talents by his junior year at Duke, maybe the NBA isn't in the cards for him. He should stay if his goal is to get to the NBA as soon as possible.

CDu
04-03-2017, 02:46 PM
This just makes sense logically. Why would you leave and not be able to get to the NBA for an extra season. If Bolden stays, he is at worst the first big man off the bench (if he's behind Vrank next year he's just not an NBA prospect yet) and probably plays around 20 mins. a game - again, at worst. If he is behind Bamba and Carter, two guys who are likely to be picked in the top 8 picks, and he shows the potential that appeared to be there before he got hurt, he will get drafted in the first round next year. Plus he gets to practice against two NBA big men all season. If he can't get meaningful minutes next year even if he is not a starter, then he needs more time to work on his game anyway. And in his junior year (when he would be playing for SMU or TCU, for example) there will be nobody left at Duke to compete with other than Vrank and freshmen (Bagley?). If he can't start and showcase his talents by his junior year at Duke, maybe the NBA isn't in the cards for him. He should stay if his goal is to get to the NBA as soon as possible.

If Bamba chooses Duke, I suspect Bolden will transfer. He'll basically be in the same position he was in this year: the third option at C on a team that doesn't like to play two interior-oriented bigs to begin with.

Edouble
04-03-2017, 02:53 PM
This just makes sense logically. Why would you leave and not be able to get to the NBA for an extra season. If Bolden stays, he is at worst the first big man off the bench (if he's behind Vrank next year he's just not an NBA prospect yet) and probably plays around 20 mins. a game - again, at worst. If he is behind Bamba and Carter, two guys who are likely to be picked in the top 8 picks, and he shows the potential that appeared to be there before he got hurt, he will get drafted in the first round next year. Plus he gets to practice against two NBA big men all season. If he can't get meaningful minutes next year even if he is not a starter, then he needs more time to work on his game anyway. And in his junior year (when he would be playing for SMU or TCU, for example) there will be nobody left at Duke to compete with other than Vrank and freshmen (Bagley?). If he can't start and showcase his talents by his junior year at Duke, maybe the NBA isn't in the cards for him. He should stay if his goal is to get to the NBA as soon as possible.


If Bamba chooses Duke, I suspect Bolden will transfer. He'll basically be in the same position he was in this year: the third option at C on a team that doesn't like to play two interior-oriented bigs to begin with.

Yeah, CDu... exactly what I was thinking.

If Bamba and Knox come to Durham, Bolden could easily be behind Carter, Bamba, and Knox the way he was behind Jefferson, Giles, and Tatum, respectively, in 2016-17.

Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15
04-03-2017, 02:58 PM
Yeah, CDu... exactly what I was thinking.

If Bamba and Knox come to Durham, Bolden could easily be behind Carter, Bamba, and Knox the way he was behind Jefferson, Giles, and Tatum, respectively, in 2016-17.

I see no reason that a motivated Bolden would "expect" to be behind any of those guys. To be fair, I used a very important qualifier in "motivated," but why should Marques not be able to crack that line-up?

FadedTackyShirt
04-03-2017, 03:05 PM
Yeah, CDu... exactly what I was thinking.

If Bamba and Knox come to Durham, Bolden could easily be behind Carter, Bamba, and Knox the way he was behind Jefferson, Giles, and Tatum, respectively, in 2016-17.

By all accounts, Bamba would be a terrific addition to Duke on and off the court, but personally (for purely basketball reasons), I'd rather add Duval and Knox than retain Bolden and add Bamba.

Carter's not going anywhere, so two more big bodies in the mix doesn't add as much as a PG and a versatile 4/3.

Kedsy
04-03-2017, 03:08 PM
Still, I hope he decides to stay at Duke. Mason Plumlee had a similar freshman year and ended up being an All-American and a darned good NBA player. I think Bolden could do the same.

I hope Marques decides to stay, too. But in my opinion his freshman year was not at all similar to Mason Plumlee's. True, they both missed the beginning of the season with an injury (Marques, 8 games; Mason 6 games), and they both fouled a lot (though Mason's 6.1 fouls per 40 is still a lot better than Marques's 8.2 fouls per 40). But that's where the similarities end. Counting DNP-CDs as 0 minutes but not counting DNP-inj as anything, Mason played 14+ mpg for the season and 12+ mpg in the post-season. Marques played fewer than 6 mpg for the season and fewer than 2 mpg in the post-season. Big difference.

A better Duke-big-man analogy might be Alaa Abdelnaby, who barely played as a freshman (5.8 mpg, exactly the same as Marques), and eventually went from Duke to the NBA, but he had to spend four years in college to do it.

Edouble
04-03-2017, 03:13 PM
I see no reason that a motivated Bolden would "expect" to be behind any of those guys. To be fair, I used a very important qualifier in "motivated," but why should Marques not be able to crack that line-up?

Not sure how to respond to this, as you have put "expect" in quotes, but I did not use that word. Is the word quoted because it has some altered meaning that you're trying to convey. I'm not trying to be snarky. Seriously, I am confused.

I will say, though, that I can not speak to Marques' motivation, but with the evidence of Vrank being ahead of Marques in the rotation at the end of the 2016-17 season, I can see a scenario where Marques is behind Bamba, Carter, and Knox in the rotation for 2017-18.

Bob Green
04-03-2017, 03:14 PM
I disagree. I think if Giles is healthy or if Bolden is as good as expected, and we don't have the injury to Jefferson and Coach K, we would have very much resembled the great team that folks expected.

CDu, I'd take it a step further by adding the injuries to Grayson Allen. There is no question Allen did not play up to expectations and his injuries significantly contributed to the situation.

Wander
04-03-2017, 03:15 PM
A better Duke-big-man analogy might be Alaa Abdelnaby, who barely played as a freshman (5.8 mpg, exactly the same as Marques), and eventually went from Duke to the NBA, but he had to spend four years in college to do it.

I agree. Giles' lack of contribution this year, IMO, is mostly attributable to his injuries. But I don't think injuries had much to do with Bolden's poor play. He looked totally lost. I think he's just a talented center who needs practice and experience, and should steadily improve every year into a very good player. My guess is that he'd improve enough in the offseason to be in the rotation next year and contend for all-ACC teams the year after. But that requires him sticking around, of course.

mr. synellinden
04-03-2017, 03:16 PM
If Bamba chooses Duke, I suspect Bolden will transfer. He'll basically be in the same position he was in this year: the third option at C on a team that doesn't like to play two interior-oriented bigs to begin with.

Others have said the same thing, but I don't see it as that simple. Maybe I'm missing something. If Bolden transfers he doesn't play a minute next year. If he stays, he might start ahead of a freshman Bamba or he might split time and play 20 minutes a game. Worst case scenario is he gets squeezed because Knox plays most of his minutes at the 4 (like Winslow did in 2015 or Tatum did this year) and Carter and Bamba split time at 5. But even if he plays 0 minutes next year, he is no worse off from the perspective of getting to the NBA. If his choice is to transfer or not, he has to be considering what is better for him in 2018-2019, not next year because his only option to play and get to the NBA after next season is to stay at Duke. So if he's thinking about transferring, is he likely to get more time, coaching, preparation, exposure, etc. playing at Duke as junior or at TCU/SMU as a sophomore in 18-19?

CDu
04-03-2017, 03:17 PM
CDu, I'd take it a step further by adding the injuries to Grayson Allen. There is no question Allen did not play up to expectations and his injuries significantly contributed to the situation.

Yup, I totally agree. Basically, 3 of the 8-9 potential rotation players for Duke were shells of their expected selves. 2/3 of that trio were entirely a result of injuries; 1/3 because he was perhaps overrated out of high school. To add to that, we had Jefferson and Coach K miss time at the worst possible time (right as we faced two of our toughest road games of the season), which put us behind the 8-ball in terms of seeding.

Just a confluence of awful bad luck this year. And even with that bad luck we were a 2 seed nationally, an ACC champion, and only lost in the tourney because we faced a Final Four team that played step for step with the (hopefully) eventual champion.

Hopefully next year has better fortune. And hopefully that starts happening very soon.

Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15
04-03-2017, 03:21 PM
Not sure how to respond to this, as you have put "expect" in quotes, but I did not use that word. Is the word quoted because it has some altered meaning that you're trying to convey. I'm not trying to be snarky. Seriously, I am confused.

I will say, though, that I can not speak to Marques' motivation, but with the evidence of Vrank being ahead of Marques in the rotation at the end of the 2016-17 season, I can see a scenario where Marques is behind Bamba, Carter, and Knox in the rotation for 2017-18.

My point is simply if he were determined, why should he not look at next season and say "I am going to earn my spot this year, and Bamba, Knox, and Carter can wait their turn." If he saw Giles/Jefferson as better post players and sees Knox/Carter/Bamba as better post players, how can he see himself as an NBA prospect?

As far as "expect" in quotes, I have no answer for you. I must have inferred that from the tone of your post that Bolden might see the writing on the wall.

He could be right - there might be very little chance to break Duke's lineup next year. But a LOT can happen between October and April.

eddiehaskell
04-03-2017, 03:28 PM
If Bolden actually has what it takes to play in the NBA and be a top 15 pick, you'd think he would want to prove it NOW on the biggest stage. At Duke almost every game gets national attention...he gets nothing next year at SMU, TCU, Texas.

Olympic Fan
04-03-2017, 03:29 PM
(1) It's one thing to suggest that without the injuries to Giles (and Bolden and Tatum preseason) and the in-season injuries to Grayson and Amile, that Duke would have had the great year we expected.

But I'll go farther -- even with all the bad luck this season -- had Duke not been forced to play a road game in its second round NCAA game, the Devils could very easily be playing tonight for the national title. All the words wasted on talking about what went wrong this season can be summarized by the observation that we caught the wrong team in the wrong place at the wrong time. That happens sometimes in NCAA play.

(2) I wish all the denigrators of Bolden would acknowledge that there is a very good chance that his problem this season was the result of his left leg injury. Anybody saw him in the exhibition game against Virginia State before the injury could see his bounce and his explosion and his ability to run the floor. I never saw that after he returned from missing almost two months in the preseason and early season. He played, but he wasn't the same player. Part of it, I think was that he lost his wind while he was out -- and never got it back.

His freshman season was very similar in terms of numbers to Miles Plumlee, who ended up a first round draft pick. It was not that much different from the freshman season of Brian Zoubek, who anchored a national title team.

I believe that most of you are underestimating Mr. Bolden. Healthy, he's going to be an impressive player ... I just hope it's at Duke.

Jeffrey
04-03-2017, 03:36 PM
I believe that most of you are underestimating Mr. Bolden.

If most posters were underestimating Mr. Bolden, then most posters would probably appear less concerned.

BD80
04-03-2017, 04:04 PM
... Both Andre Dawkins and Amile Jefferson have done a Master's program at the Divinity School, which is no easy feet. I can't imagine what their schedules must have looked like.

Did Andre have foot issues as well?

I thought we decided to blame the shoes or the practice surface, NOT the program of study, particularly the Divinity School? Good God!

bbosbbos
04-03-2017, 04:16 PM
[Redacted text from deleted post] K is the best coach ever no doubt about that but if you feel that there is not a problem with our bigs and their development of late, then that is a bit rose colored.


In term of coaching bigs of late:

From 2010:

Duke
Zoubek (4 yrs)
Thomas (4 yrs)
MPII (4 yrs)
Kelly (4 yrs)
Parker (1 yr)
Okafor (1 yr)
MPIII (5 yrs)
Jefferson (5 yrs)
Jeter (transferred)
Giles (1 yr)
Bolden (?)
2 NCs


UNC
Deon Thompson (4 yrs)
ED Davis (2 yrs)
Wears twin (transferred)
Zeller (4 yrs)
Henson (3 yrs)
Knox (1 yr**)
Johnson (4 yrs)
Macadoo (4 yrs)
Meeks (4 yrs)
Hicks (4 yrs)
1 NIT



UK
Cousins (1 yr)
Davis (1 yr)
Noel (1 yr)
Randle (1 yr)
Towns (1 yr)
1 NC

Which school is better in coaching bigs?

CDu
04-03-2017, 04:22 PM
In term of coaching bigs of late:

From 2010:

Duke
Zoubek (4 yrs)
Thomas (4 yrs)
MPII (4 yrs)
Kelly (4 yrs)
Parker (1 yr)
Okafor (1 yr)
MPIII (5 yrs)
Jefferson (5 yrs)
Jeter (transferred)
Giles (1 yr)
Bolden (?)
2 NCs


UNC
Deon Thompson (4 yrs)
ED Davis (2 yrs)
Wears twin (transferred)
Zeller (4 yrs)
Henson (3 yrs)
Knox (1 yr**)
Johnson (4 yrs)
Macadoo (4 yrs)
Meeks (4 yrs)
Hicks (4 yrs)
1 NIT



UK
Cousins (1 yr)
Davis (1 yr)
Noel (1 yr)
Randle (1 yr)
Towns (1 yr)
1 NC

Which school is better in coaching bigs?

To be fair, some of those UNC guys won a national chsmpionship. Davis, Zeller, and Thompson were all a part of their 2009 title team. Also, McAdoo was only a 3-year guy.

Jeffrey
04-03-2017, 04:41 PM
To be fair, some of those UNC guys won a national chsmpionship. Davis, Zeller, and Thompson were all a part of their 2009 title team. Also, McAdoo was only a 3-year guy.

True, but I doubt UK, or maybe even UNC, would have helped put MP3 in the NBA.


if you feel that there is not a problem with our bigs and their development of late, then that is a bit rose colored.

CDu
04-03-2017, 04:49 PM
True, but I doubt UK, or maybe even UNC, would have helped put MP3 in the NBA.

Oh I agree. We've definitely done a better job developing bigs than UNC or UK over the last 10-15 years. The Plumlees (especially Mason and Marshall), Kelly, and Jefferson are shining examples of guys who got a ton better during their tenures at Duke. UK's guys are either great right away or they don't ever cut it. UNC has Brice Johnson as their one clear example of a guy who got dramatically better in his time at UNC. Maye could potentially join that list, though.

Jeffrey
04-03-2017, 04:50 PM
I hope Marques decides to stay, too. But in my opinion his freshman year was not at all similar to Mason Plumlee's.

Agreed. IIRC, Mason would have probably gone in the 1st round, of the NBA draft, after his freshman year.

CDu
04-03-2017, 04:55 PM
Agreed. IIRC, Mason would have probably gone in the 1st round, of the NBA draft, after his freshman year.

Absolutely. Mason was a contributor all season, albeit in a backup role. His contributions were not all that dissimilar from Harry Giles' contributions this year.

Indoor66
04-03-2017, 05:12 PM
Oh I agree. We've definitely done a better job developing bigs than UNC or UK over the last 10-15 years. The Plumlees (especially Mason and Marshall), Kelly, and Jefferson are shining examples of guys who got a ton better during their tenures at Duke. UK's guys are either great right away or they don't ever cut it. UNC has Brice Johnson as their one clear example of a guy who got dramatically better in his time at UNC. Maye could potentially join that list, though.

Don't forget Lance Thomas!

Devilwin
04-03-2017, 05:13 PM
I hope he stays. The biggest stage in college ball, someone said, and I agree.

And, although I am not an alum, I bleed Duke Blue (and have since the age of eight). Saw where one guy threatened to look elsewhere. Go on, with my blessings..
Also, I hate, loathe, despise the NBA. There is the culprit for all our woes. If a kid is NBA good, take a shot in some kind of D league, and quit wasting schools' time and money. If they come to school, make it for at least two years. I never watch NBA ball, not even the playoffs...:mad:

Jeffrey
04-03-2017, 05:28 PM
Absolutely. Mason was a contributor all season, albeit in a backup role. His contributions were not all that dissimilar from Harry Giles' contributions this year.

Definitely. Harry & Mason were flashing tremendous NBA talent as Duke freshman. I really like your comparison.

Saratoga2
04-03-2017, 05:34 PM
3 transfers announced in just the last 2 weeks, and all 3 are big men. Jefferson graduates, Giles enters the NBA Draft, and Jeter, Obi, and Marques all transferring. Who's gonna play the 5-spot in the middle next year? We better hope we get Bamba. And to think that Marques Bolden was expected to be a one-and-done player at the start of the season. I do wish him the best in his future endeavors.

I don't blame any kid that doesn't get a sniff at PT from seeking greener pastures. As you say, we have lost three big men who might have stayed. The coaching staff no doubt knew Bolden was thinking this way and that left him no PT when he got healthy, similar to the Jeter situation. On the other hand, opposing coaching staffs will no doubt talk to recruits about the wholesale transfer of our big men from Duke this this year. Kind of a black eye, and suggests our approach may need some adjustment going forward.

We still may see Kennard and/or Allen leaving so this is heading into some worst case scenarios that people have postulated.

Edouble
04-03-2017, 05:55 PM
I don't blame any kid that doesn't get a sniff at PT from seeking greener pastures. As you say, we have lost three big men who might have stayed. The coaching staff no doubt knew Bolden was thinking this way and that left him no PT when he got healthy, similar to the Jeter situation. On the other hand, opposing coaching staffs will no doubt talk to recruits about the wholesale transfer of our big men from Duke this this year. Kind of a black eye, and suggests our approach may need some adjustment going forward.

We still may see Kennard and/or Allen leaving so this is heading into some worst case scenarios that people have postulated.

Non-rotation Players Lost:
Jeter
Obi
Pagliuca
Bolden*

Rotation Players Lost Whom We Expected To Lose After This Season:
Jefferson
Jones
Tatum
Giles
Allen*

*may or may not return

So far, I think we are OK. I am more concerned about not landing Duval.

dbcooper
04-03-2017, 05:58 PM
In term of coaching bigs of late:

From 2010:

Duke
Zoubek (4 yrs)
Thomas (4 yrs)
MPII (4 yrs)
Kelly (4 yrs)
Parker (1 yr)
Okafor (1 yr)
MPIII (5 yrs)
Jefferson (5 yrs)
Jeter (transferred)
Giles (1 yr)
Bolden (?)
2 NCs


UNC
Deon Thompson (4 yrs)
ED Davis (2 yrs)
Wears twin (transferred)
Zeller (4 yrs)
Henson (3 yrs)
Knox (1 yr**)
Johnson (4 yrs)
Macadoo (4 yrs)
Meeks (4 yrs)
Hicks (4 yrs)
1 NIT



UK
Cousins (1 yr)
Davis (1 yr)
Noel (1 yr)
Randle (1 yr)
Towns (1 yr)
1 NC

Which school is better in coaching bigs?

To be fair to UNC - I think they were the NIT runner up in 2010, Duke was the 2010 National Champions!:D

kAzE
04-03-2017, 06:01 PM
Seriously . . . Marques is not gone yet. Can we just wait until we hear something official before we talk about this like he's gone?

It's up in the air. We don't know if he's transferring or not. He's considering it.

mattman91
04-03-2017, 06:04 PM
Seriously . . . Marques is not gone yet. Can we just wait until we hear something official before we talk about this like he's gone?

It's up in the air. We don't know if he's transferring or not. He's considering it.

Yep...isn't this technically rumor mongering at this point?

Jeffrey
04-03-2017, 06:09 PM
He's considering it.

I'm considering spending the rest of my life with Adriana Lima. What's your point?

flyingdutchdevil
04-03-2017, 06:12 PM
I'm considering spending the rest of my life with Adriana Lima. What's your point?

You realize she was married to Marko Jaric, right? Girl may be pretty, but she ain't bright.

At least be like devildeac and myself and go with Kate Upton. Verlander is a baller compared to Jaric...

Dukehky
04-03-2017, 06:13 PM
Non-rotation Players Lost:
Jeter
Obi
Pagliuca
Bolden*

Rotation Players Lost Whom We Expected To Lose After This Season:
Jefferson
Jones
Tatum
Giles
Allen*

*may or may not return

So far, I think we are OK. I am more concerned about not landing Duval.

Add Kennard to May or may not return. We didn't expect to lose him, but it is a definite possibility.

Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15
04-03-2017, 06:16 PM
Yep...isn't this technically rumor mongering at this point?

Yeah, this thread started because conclusive reports were released which have since been redacted. I would vote to close too.

Jeffrey
04-03-2017, 06:21 PM
You realize she was married to Marko Jaric, right? Girl may be pretty, but she ain't bright.

She is now single and smarter than you think. She does not even acknowledge that UNC exist.

DukieInKansas
04-03-2017, 06:23 PM
I'm considering spending the rest of my life with Adriana Lima. What's your point?

Is there a Mrs. Jeffrey that might take exception to this consideration?

devildeac
04-03-2017, 06:24 PM
You realize she was married to Marko Jaric, right? Girl may be pretty, but she ain't bright.

At least be like devildeac and myself and go with Kate Upton. Verlander is a baller compared to Jaric...

Wait, you're still seeing her? :rolleyes::o

Jeffrey
04-03-2017, 06:25 PM
Is there a Mrs. Jeffrey that might take exception to this consideration?

Yes, but she is well aware of my chances and not concerned in the least.

Steven43
04-03-2017, 06:42 PM
Yeah, this thread started because conclusive reports were released which have since been redacted. I would vote to close too.

I frequently don't agree with you, but will give props on this point. That said, though this thread might be chock full o' rampant speculation, the wise, learned and highly intelligent posters of DBR have provided lots of food for thought that I otherwise would not have gotten. I say let it continue.

Edouble
04-03-2017, 07:06 PM
Add Kennard to May or may not return. We didn't expect to lose him, but it is a definite possibility.

Kennard's omission was intentional and was part of the point I was trying to make.

Everyone except Kennard whom we are losing/may be losing is either not a rotation player, or a player whom we had expected to lose.

Looking through that lens, I don't see how we are yet approaching a worst case scenario, as mentioned by the OP.

MattC09
04-03-2017, 07:12 PM
Per Adam Rowe:

https://twitter.com/AdamRoweTDD/status/849035389830651904

CarmenWallaceWade
04-03-2017, 07:15 PM
Per Adam Rowe:

https://twitter.com/AdamRoweTDD/status/849035389830651904


Round and round we go, Jack.

Indoor66
04-03-2017, 07:21 PM
NOW may we see this thread closed?

Dukehky
04-03-2017, 07:21 PM
Kennard's omission was intentional and was part of the point I was trying to make.

Everyone except Kennard whom we are losing/may be losing is either not a rotation player, or a player whom we had expected to lose.

Looking through that lens, I don't see how we are yet approaching a worst case scenario, as mentioned by the OP.

Understood. Sorry, long thread.

SlapTheFloor
04-03-2017, 07:21 PM
Per Adam Rowe:

https://twitter.com/AdamRoweTDD/status/849035389830651904

Ok. Now I guess we can start walking back all the smack we were just talking about him.

NSDukeFan
04-03-2017, 07:26 PM
It's why next year, I don't think Bamba is a necessity (but he sure would be nice to get). We have Carter, we'll have Knox (I'm convinced), and Vrank can spell either one (although Carter slides to the 4 if Vrank comes in). ... I believe since Vrankovic is in his second year at Duke he should have no trouble spelling Carter or Knox as they are not particularly difficult names to spell. Carter or Knox could be excused for not being able to spell Vrankovic, however.


I disagree. I think if Giles is healthy or if Bolden is as good as expected, and we don't have the injury to Jefferson and Coach K, we would have very much resembled the great team that folks expected. But we weren't so fortunate on ANY of those fronts.

And even still, we were a top-10 team that won the ACC title and only lost in the NCAA to a Final Four team.
I believe this year's team had the perfect balance of elite freshman talent and experienced, skilled veterans. Unfortunately, injuries did the team in. Giles and Tatum were two of the top players in a great recruiting class who were expected to be difference makers in college basketball. Bolden was the top center in this great recruiting class. And Jackson was a very talented guard in this great class. Tatum and Jackson ended up performing up to expectations, but adding a player at least as talented as Lonzo Ball, Josh Jackson, Markelle Fultz as a big to the Duke team would have made a huge impact, even with some rust. Unfortunately, the knee cleaning procedure didn't give us, the team, the coaching staff or Harry to see that player this year. Bolden also didn't have the year any of us hoped for due to injuries and trying to catch up from time missed.

This year definitely reminds me of 2011 in that the team was stacked with talent and experience but was derailed by injuries but could still have won but ended up meeting teams that played spectacularly against them in the tournament.

I don't think I will ever be as excited about a player returning as I was about Kyle coming back for his senior year.

DukeBlue666s
04-03-2017, 07:26 PM
Ok. Now I guess we can start walking back all the smack we were just talking about him.

Thank goodness. Still want Bamba tho ...

NM Duke Fan
04-03-2017, 07:27 PM
I am very glad to hear the good news, he has a lot of potential and I did see flashes that were impressive for a few games. Good news all around, the transfer option would have only slowed him down towards his goals, and Duke can really use him next year, regardless of recruiting developments. Now may he get completely well, refocused, and work hard at what the coaches have outlined for him to gain more playing time this coming season!

NSDukeFan
04-03-2017, 07:32 PM
Per Adam Rowe:

https://twitter.com/AdamRoweTDD/status/849035389830651904

Is this tweet true? Or the last one? If this is true, that is hugely exciting. I would love to see what Bolden can do with a healthy summer and season.