The Real Danger of A (Potential) Cheats Title

[slower]

In addition to all of us having to live with Cheat fans at Obnoxious Level Orange, here are my main concerns of what a title would do for them:

1. Recruiting. If they DO win, let's see what Knox does. And what happens from then on.

2. Penalties for their scandal. If you think they've skated so far (and, of course, they HAVE), I don't think the NCAA will EVER lay a hand on them if they win it all this year.

Zags - for the love of God, do your job Monday night.

[chriso]

In addition to all of us having to live with Cheat fans at Obnoxious Level Orange, here are my main concerns of what a title would do for them:

1. Recruiting. If they DO win, let's see what Knox does. And what happens from then on.

2. Penalties for their scandal. If you think they've skated so far (and, of course, they HAVE), I don't think the NCAA will EVER lay a hand on them if they win it all this year.

Zags - for the love of God, do your job Monday night.

Yes I second that. If UNC wins, which I don't think they will, and Knox commits to them, it will be 2009 again. But 2010 worked out pretty well for us. :cool: You just never know. At this point I'd be thrilled with Duval, Kennard, Carter, Trent, Bolden and Jackson next year. Sorry know this isn't a "who returns" thread. Go Zags!!

[kshepinthehouse]

What's interesting is this lack of recruiting has actually helped them. They haven't gotten the one and done stars which has helped mold their team into an experienced group of veterans. This is their main reason for success last year and this year. If they start recruiting better, I'm not sure it will actually make them a better team.

[chriso]

What's interesting is this lack of recruiting has actually helped them. They haven't gotten the one and done stars which has helped mold their team into an experienced group of veterans. This is their main reason for success last year and this year. If they start recruiting better, I'm not sure it will actually make them a better team.

That is an excellent point. At the start of the year, I was astounded at how much Final Four experience they returned. I didn't like it, but looking at what they had coming back I wondered why they weren't preseason number one. Not that it really matters at this point. But experience does. And luckily the Zags :cool:have experience as well.

[kshepinthehouse]

That is an excellent point. At the start of the year, I was astounded at how much Final Four experience they returned. I didn't like it, but looking at what they had coming back I wondered why they weren't preseason number one. Not that it really matters at this point. But experience does. And luckily the Zags :cool:have experience as well.

I saw somewhere that they have 56 more games of NCAA tournament experience than the next most experienced team in this years tournament.

[wavedukefan70s]

If valentine officiates the final the zagz are in trouble.

[kshepinthehouse]

If valentine officiates the final the zagz are in trouble.

He's not in the finals. If they will call a push in the back against Meeks I think the Zags will be okay. Big man from Gonzaga won't be easy to push anyway.

[Duke95]

The real danger isn't recruiting. The true real danger is that other schools will see the payoff from engaging in academic fraud and the NCAA's reticence to punish such behavior, which will accelerate the race to the academic gutter.

What UNC has done is abhorrent on every level. They abandoned their responsibility to educate young men and women and chose to pursue the riches associated with athletic success. I once held the university in high esteem, but no longer. Not that they care, since they're all in on athletics. UNC has performed a disservice not only to students but to the exceptional professors there.

[MCFinARL]

In addition to all of us having to live with Cheat fans at Obnoxious Level Orange, here are my main concerns of what a title would do for them:

1. Recruiting. If they DO win, let's see what Knox does. And what happens from then on.

2. Penalties for their scandal. If you think they've skated so far (and, of course, they HAVE), I don't think the NCAA will EVER lay a hand on them if they win it all this year.

Zags - for the love of God, do your job Monday night.

FWIW, I am pretty sure I saw a quote from Knox where he said whether UNC wins the championship will not be much of a factor in his decision--more about the coaches and the players who will be leaving and returning. But I admit I can't find the reference.

[Wander]

The goal of college basketball teams is to win titles. Recruiting is a tool to help that. Not the other way around. I never understand why fans are so focused on recruiting immediately after winning a national title.

(not trying to give you a hard time, OP, you're hardly alone - I remember it being a huge point of discussion here after the 2010 and 2015 titles)

[hallcity]

In addition to all of us having to live with Cheat fans at Obnoxious Level Orange, here are my main concerns of what a title would do for them:

1. Recruiting. If they DO win, let's see what Knox does. And what happens from then on.

2. Penalties for their scandal. If you think they've skated so far (and, of course, they HAVE), I don't think the NCAA will EVER lay a hand on them if they win it all this year.

Zags - for the love of God, do your job Monday night.

How would UNC winning a championship help them avoid penalties? I know many people believe that the NCAA would never punish UNC but the Committee on Infractions doesn't seem to share this belief.

[slower]

The goal of college basketball teams is to win titles. Recruiting is a tool to help that. Not the other way around. I never understand why fans are so focused on recruiting immediately after winning a national title.

(not trying to give you a hard time, OP, you're hardly alone - I remember it being a huge point of discussion here after the 2010 and 2015 titles)

Honestly, I didn't think my statement was THAT hard to understand.

But thanks for explaining goals and tools and stuff. Silly of me to imply that winning titles is a tool to help recruiting. Who knew that it was entirely a one-way street? I mean, besides YOU.

Fans might be focused on recruiting after winning a title because - and I'm just a simple man making a wild guess - they might like to get more talented players and win ANOTHER title. All just baseless speculation, of course. :p

[slower]

How would UNC winning a championship help them avoid penalties? I know many people believe that the NCAA would never punish UNC but the Committee on Infractions doesn't seem to share this belief.

True. We've all seen how the COI has brutalized them, so far.

[75Crazie]

The real danger isn't recruiting. The true real danger is that other schools will see the payoff from engaging in academic fraud and the NCAA's reticence to punish such behavior, which will accelerate the race to the academic gutter.

What UNC has done is abhorrent on every level. They abandoned their responsibility to educate young men and women and chose to pursue the riches associated with athletic success. I once held the university in high esteem, but no longer. Not that they care, since they're all in on athletics. UNC has performed a disservice not only to students but to the exceptional professors there.
I could not possibly agree more. The main lesson to take from UNC's back-to-back final fours is that, if cheating pays, long-term institutionalized cheating creates a bonanza.

[Tjenkins]

I'm no polyanna when it comes to college athletics, but the NCAA's refusal to do anything the UNC basketball is such bs. It ticks me off so much that I may not watch the final tomorrow night, because we'll have to hear about how a win by the Heels somehow "vindicates" Williams and the school. It's a joke that a full year has come and gone and nothing has happened to this program.

I hope the Zags stomp them into oblivion.

[slower]

I hope the Zags stomp them into oblivion.

I think we can all agree on THAT.

[ChemGod]

Zags have already won their first National Title, whether the NCAA chooses to do the right thing or not.

[Spanarkel]

If valentine officiates the final the zagz are in trouble.

Officials for Title Game(subject to change on whim of NCAA):

Gonzaga games/GU record/// unc games/unc record

Mike Eades: none/// 4-1

Verne Harris: 6-0/// 0-1

Michael Stephens: 1-0/// 1-0

T. Oglesby(alternate): none/// none


Guys, just please call a few of the usually multiple travels on unc and maybe 1 or 2 three second calls(unlikely).

[devildeac]

Officials for Title Game(subject to change on whim of NCAA):

Gonzaga games/GU record/// unc games/unc record

Mike Eades none/// 4-1

Verne Harris 6-0/// 0-1

Michael Stephens 1-0/// 1-0

T. Oglesby(alternate) none/// none


Guys, just please call a few of the usually multiple travels on unc and maybe 1 or 2 three second calls(unlikely) plus, the frequent OTB/pushing episodes.

Phrase added for additional violation calls requested. ;)

[Spanarkel]

Phrase added for additional violation calls requested. ;)

Amen!

[Olympic Fan]

I very much disagree with the OP that UNC winning the title would prevent punishment from the NCAA.

Winning the 1988 national title didn't stop the NCAA from hammering Kansas in 1989.

Vegas was banned from the tournament for two years and given three-year-probation in 1993 after it's great two-year run in 1990-91.

UConn was nailed for academic problems and banned from the tourney soon after winning the 2011 title.

And Southern Cal was hammered right after their great two-year run with Reggie Bush.

If anything, a UNC title -- and the publicity that would bring (we've already seen a major story in the NYT) would make it MORE likely that the NCAA acts decisively.

[slower]

I very much disagree with the OP that UNC winning the title would prevent punishment from the NCAA.

Winning the 1988 national title didn't stop the NCAA from hammering Kansas in 1989.

Vegas was banned from the tournament for two years and given three-year-probation in 1993 after it's great two-year run in 1990-91.

UConn was nailed for academic problems and banned from the tourney soon after winning the 2011 title.

And Southern Cal was hammered right after their great two-year run with Reggie Bush.

If anything, a UNC title -- and the publicity that would bring (we've already seen a major story in the NYT) would make it MORE likely that the NCAA acts decisively.

God, I hope you're right - more than anything in the world.

However, I'll believe it when I see it.

[Atlanta Duke]

FWIW, I am pretty sure I saw a quote from Knox where he said whether UNC wins the championship will not be much of a factor in his decision--more about the coaches and the players who will be leaving and returning. But I admit I can't find the reference.

This comment in an article this week.

Knox said he and his parents will evaluate everything from how he’d potentially be used next season to who’s staying and leaving; and, while he’s “happy” to see the Tar Heels make their second consecutive Final Four appearance, no, it doesn’t have an impact on his ultimate decision.

“I don’t really care who wins the national championship,” Knox said

http://usatodayhss.com/2017/kevin-kn...ow-who-to-pick


How would UNC winning a championship help them avoid penalties? I know many people believe that the NCAA would never punish UNC but the Committee on Infractions doesn't seem to share this belief.

It cuts both ways. If UNC skates for 20 years of sham classes it antagonizes the other schools who have not cheated while undercutting one of the NCAA's defenses to its mortal threat, whether players should be compensated, that is justified in large part by the claim the players are getting a scholarship for a valuable college education.

OTOH the NCAA presumably does not like the optics of the champion of the tournament that pays the bills getting clobbered for academic fraud. As was discussed in the game thread last night, the official party line for those selling the NCAA games as "student-athlete" competition was loud and clear when Jim Nantz described the clear cut academic fraud, that even Bubba Cunningham has conceded occurred, as nothing more than "swirling innuendo."

Fortunately Nantz is getting hammered for that spin

CBS’s Jim Nantz is getting crushed after making controversial comments about North Carolina

http://fanbuzz.com/story/cbss-jim-nantz-is-getting-crushed-after-making-controversial-comments-about-north-carolina/

[wavedukefan70s]

Id take them getting this one if they would lose a few previous titles and have a two year ban from post season play.

[rsvman]

When I was a college student long ago, there were a couple of guys that always cheated in the chemistry lab. I always played by the rules. Consequently, their grades were better than mine, which I felt was unfair.
I approached the professor, told my tale of woe without revealing names, and then said, "I'm being punished for my honesty."
The professor looked at me for a moment and then said, "You're not being punished for your honesty. You're getting exactly the grade you deserve. THEY are being REWARDED for their dishonesty."

Not sure where I was going with that, so, ummm, draw your own conclusions.

[WiJoe]

Yes I second that. If UNC wins, which I don't think they will, and Knox commits to them, it will be 2009 again. But 2010 worked out pretty well for us. :cool: You just never know. At this point I'd be thrilled with Duval, Kennard, Carter, Trent, Bolden and Jackson next year. Sorry know this isn't a "who returns" thread. Go Zags!!

you type that why?

[WiJoe]

If anything, a UNC title -- and the publicity that would bring (we've already seen a major story in the NYT) would make it MORE likely that the NCAA acts decisively.

Sadly, I think you're dreaming

[NSDukeFan]

The goal of college basketball teams is to win titles. Recruiting is a tool to help that. Not the other way around. I never understand why fans are so focused on recruiting immediately after winning a national title.

(not trying to give you a hard time, OP, you're hardly alone - I remember it being a huge point of discussion here after the 2010 and 2015 titles)

Not familiar with the Kentucky program? :)

[chriso]

you type that why?

I think the Zags match up well, especially in the frontcourt. It just seems like their time is due. And I don't want to consider the alternative. :)

[NashvilleDevil]

I think the Zags match up well, especially in the frontcourt. It just seems like their time is due. And I don't want to consider the alternative. :)

Zags will playing 8 on 5 tomorrow though. Won't be shocked if most of their big men are saddled with early foul trouble which will allow Meeks and company to feast down low.

[Newton_14]

I'm no polyanna when it comes to college athletics, but the NCAA's refusal to do anything the UNC basketball is such bs. It ticks me off so much that I may not watch the final tomorrow night, because we'll have to hear about how a win by the Heels somehow "vindicates" Williams and the school. It's a joke that a full year has come and gone and nothing has happened to this program.

I hope the Zags stomp them into oblivion.
Agree 1000%, but here is the sad truth. We are all being played. There is no integrity in this money machine formerly known as College Athletics. Last night very briefly Jim Nance brought up the um "investigation' that 'the NCAA for some reason has dragged on for far too long".... Grant I believe, remained silent and did not comment (I think. I may be wrong there), and Bill Raferty commented but like Nance, spoke of it as some minor "academic" issue, and neither said nary a negative word about uncCheat. That tells me that it is not just ESPN, but it is collectively every entity associated with the money machine which must be protected at all costs. I am honestly surprised the NCAA even bothers investigating schools for anything anymore. Why bother? If uncCheat is untouchable even with the biggest, longest, and most egregious cheating in the history of college sports, why should any school accept punishment for anything they do that is against the rules?

We are living in a sad time. Between OAD and uncCheat skating it takes a lot of the joy out of it for me.

[Dukelogger]

What's interesting is this lack of recruiting has actually helped them. They haven't gotten the one and done stars which has helped mold their team into an experienced group of veterans. This is their main reason for success last year and this year. If they start recruiting better, I'm not sure it will actually make them a better team.

While it is true the number of top 5 / top 10 guys they've signed has dipped in comparison to their own (through nefarious means) standard, they were still recruiting at a very high level by national standards up until 2014. Jackson, Bradley, Hicks, Pinson, Berry were all top 20 nationally. From those guys - excluding the one freshman - you have gotten 3 years, 4 years, 3 years and 3 years. Keeping them around (ie Mcadoo, Paige, B Johnson) for three or more years and you are clearly consistently fielding an elite roster year after year.

[FerryFor50]

Zags will playing 8 on 5 tomorrow though. Won't be shocked if most of their big men are saddled with early foul trouble which will allow Meeks and company to feast down low.

Hopefully, Karnowski has been hitting his squats hard, because he'll be carrying 260 lbs of Kennedy Meeks on his back all night.

[devildeac]

Hopefully, Karnowski has been hitting his squats hard, because he'll be carrying 260 lbs of Kennedy Meeks on his back all night.

Sad, but true.

Funny stuff, FF50. :D

[NM Duke Fan]

In terms of both biomechanics and proper nomenclature, Deadlifts would have been more apporpriate!

[NSDukeFan]

In terms of both biomechanics and proper nomenclature, Deadlifts would have been more apporpriate!

He's not going to be picking Meeks up off the ground, is he? I thought the concern would be Meeks jumping on his back?

[NM Duke Fan]

He's not going to be picking Meeks up off the ground, is he? I thought the concern would be Meeks jumping on his back?

Deadlifts use a fuller range of motion and create a tremendously strong lower back, along with all the strengthening of the quads and glutes that squats develop. So if Karnowski has been doing deadlifts, hopefully this will help him to avoid another severe back injury due to Meeks et al! Carrying around a lot of dead weight might be hazardous. It is enough that Karnowski has to carry around his own 300 plus, making his dunks all the more impressive to me. But dunking when weighing 560 pounds is asking a bit much!

[Atlanta Duke]

Mark Bradley's column in the Atlanta Journal-Constitution today, including these shots, reflects the low credibility of UNC and Roy as the "stuff" is not going away even with a title

This is the flagship university of a state that, yes, takes basketball very seriously, but also a university that has forever been a tad snooty in its insistence that it Does Things The Right Way. Apparently proud Carolina had learned to stonewall the right way....

For two springs running, Williams has sought to play the victim, which might go over better if McCants hadn’t been part of his 2005 championship team....

North Carolina, via its delaying and then its indignation, has made few friends among NCAA types. Just because the hammer hasn’t dropped doesn’t mean it won’t.

http://markbradley.blog.myajc.com/2017/04/03/north-carolina-is-back-in-the-title-game-still-under-ncaa-scrutiny/

[Edouble]

Deadlifts use a fuller range of motion and create a tremendously strong lower back, along with all the strengthening of the quads and glutes that squats develop. So if Karnowski has been doing deadlifts, hopefully this will help him to avoid another severe back injury due to Meeks et al! Carrying around a lot of dead weight might be hazardous. It is enough that Karnowski has to carry around his own 300 plus, making his dunks all the more impressive to me. But dunking when weighing 560 pounds is asking a bit much!

Completely disagree. The ROM for a squat is much more than a deadlift, and it's not even close.

For a powerlifting/competition squat, the hips have to extend lower than the knees. The starting position for a deadlift is standing with the knees at about a 90 degree angle, already about 1/3 of the way through the ascension and hip extension of a squat. Both lifts finish in the standing position.

And the deadlift does not equal the squat for glute or quad development. Back squats are number one, and number one alone for glute development. Front squats will hit your quads harder than even back squats, but not deadlifts. Deadlifts will definitely work your lower back, hamstrings, upper body, and probably overall CNS more though.

[Indoor66]

This board will debate ANYTHING!

[devildeac]

This board will debate ANYTHING!

I disagree.



















;)

[Indoor66]

I disagree.



















;)
I knew you would.😁😂😎

[Edouble]

This board will debate ANYTHING!

When my thoughts wander they either go to Duke Basketball or working out. I don't have a workout forum to hang out at, so when the subject comes up on DBR, I pounce (apparently).

[NM Duke Fan]

When my thoughts wander they either go to Duke Basketball or working out. I don't have a workout forum to hang out at, so when the subject comes up on DBR, I pounce (apparently).

OK, ROM aside and all in good fun with you, theoretically if you had to train Karnowski over a period of months (with his former severe back injury and titanium rods in place) to prepare him to deal with Meeks draping all over him tonight, would you have emphasized squats or the deadlift to avoid any more back injuries this evening? Having done lots of various squats and deadlifts in my near 59 years, I personally would have choosen the deadlift. After all, back pain is an epidemic these days, especially amongst aging athletes. As a martial artiist and health care provider, I have encountered all kinds of people whose backs are a disaster area year after year. And too many who work out to have an impressive physique ignore the deadlift, it is not that glamorous!