PDA

View Full Version : Grayson's choices



Pages : [1] 2

DukeWarhead
03-26-2017, 09:31 PM
Not sure which thread to add this to, but since it sticks to Grayson specific, I thought I'd start a new one. Mods, feel free to move it as needed.

Just looking at mock NBA drafts. None of the major ones have Grayson getting selected within the first 30 picks. (maybe a few do, but most don't). of course, those things can be off. But it sure seems like Grayson has a difficult choice to make. The NBA isn't exactly calling, it seems. But I can also imagine that this was a very taxing year for Grayson, and he might be ready to start a new chapter. It would be interesting to know what advice the coaches are giving him. Personally, I'd love to see him back, but I say that about almost anybody.
It's a tough call.

lotusland
03-26-2017, 11:33 PM
It's not like it's a choice with only bad alternatives like Sophie's. Either he gets to be a Senior leader for Duke or chase an NBA dream. He doesn't have to go if he doesn't want to. He should test the water and see where he stands. If he's not sold on declaring, cmon back and try for another championship and possible jersey immortality.

Dukehky
03-27-2017, 09:34 AM
I don't think he's coming back guys. His plan was to stay 3 years. He gave it all he had. I don't think he wants to come back.

elvis14
03-27-2017, 09:50 AM
I don't think he's coming back guys. His plan was to stay 3 years. He gave it all he had. I don't think he wants to come back.

Interesting. I haven't seen anything where Grayson as said what he wants. I think that it was clear that before the season started that his plan was to play this year, graduate and go to the NBA. Then he got injured 37 times and had a mediocre junior season (as compared to what it could have been). I think we can clearly make arguments both ways for what he should do:

For going:

He's good enough
He can get away from the ridiculous media microscope
Even as a rookie, maybe he can get a call from the refs in the NBA and not have to put up with teams taking cheap shots at him trying to bait him into a response
Even if he's not drafted, or not drafted in the first round, he can still make a roster and get paid
If healthy he'll do fine at pre-draft workouts


Against going:

He's not projected in the first round
A healthy senior season could greatly increase his draft status
He really seems to love Duke and might want to take another shot at the NCAA tournament and would enjoy being a senior captain


There are more reasons on both sides but my main point is that it's easy to make valid arguments both ways. Personally, selfishly, I hope he stays.

flyingdutchdevil
03-27-2017, 10:10 AM
Interesting. I haven't seen anything where Grayson as said what he wants. I think that it was clear that before the season started that his plan was to play this year, graduate and go to the NBA. Then he got injured 37 times and had a mediocre junior season (as compared to what it could have been). I think we can clearly make arguments both ways for what he should do:

For going:

He's good enough
He can get away from the ridiculous media microscope
Even as a rookie, maybe he can get a call from the refs in the NBA and not have to put up with teams taking cheap shots at him trying to bait him into a response
Even if he's not drafted, or not drafted in the first round, he can still make a roster and get paid
If healthy he'll do fine at pre-draft workouts


Against going:

He's not projected in the first round
A healthy senior season could greatly increase his draft status
He really seems to love Duke and might want to take another shot at the NCAA tournament and would enjoy being a senior captain


There are more reasons on both sides but my main point is that it's easy to make valid arguments both ways. Personally, selfishly, I hope he stays.

I think that thought process came from DBR, not Grayson. Don't get me wrong - it makes complete sense. There is nothing to indicate that Grayson was going to bolt. Graduating early is a solid piece of evidence, but he could pull a Nolan and get a Masters in something.

IMO, Grayson will go pro. But he should come back. Weaker draft next year, prove that this year was an anomaly, etc etc etc.

MCFinARL
03-27-2017, 10:19 AM
I think that thought process came from DBR, not Grayson. Don't get me wrong - it makes complete sense. There is nothing to indicate that Grayson was going to bolt. Graduating early is a solid piece of evidence, but he could pull a Nolan and get a Masters in something.

IMO, Grayson will go pro. But he should come back. Weaker draft next year, prove that this year was an anomaly, etc etc etc.

I don't think Nolan got a Masters--just finished his undergraduate degree in 4 years, no? Perhaps you are thinking of Andre Dawkins, who played as a grad student after the year he was off the team?

flyingdutchdevil
03-27-2017, 10:23 AM
I don't think Nolan got a Masters--just finished his undergraduate degree in 4 years, no? Perhaps you are thinking of Andre Dawkins, who played as a grad student after the year he was off the team?

Nolan got a 1-year Masters from Fuqua.

BigZ
03-27-2017, 10:24 AM
I agree that his plan was to leave after this Season but with how the season unfolded I think he comes back

FadedTackyShirt
03-27-2017, 10:27 AM
Selfishly I'd like to see Grayson return, but paradoxically graduating early may not be in his best interests if he decides to return to Duke.

Matt Leinart could have graduated on time or in the Summer from USC, but he avoided that in order to take a single class (ball room dancing) in the Fall and focus entirely on football.

If Grayson graduates and returns, he'll have to enroll in a grad program for two semesters.

flyingdutchdevil
03-27-2017, 10:28 AM
Selfishly I'd like to see Grayson return, but paradoxically graduating early may not be in his best interests if he decides to return to Duke.

Matt Leinart could have graduated on time or in the Summer from USC, but he avoided that in order to take a single class (ball room dancing) in the Fall and focus entirely on football.

If Grayson graduates and returns, he'll have to enroll in a grad program for two semesters.

I can assure you there are some masters that require very, very, very, VERY little work.

Utley
03-27-2017, 10:34 AM
I can assure you there are some masters that require very, very, very, VERY little work.

But how could he go to school at UNC and play for Duke?

PackMan97
03-27-2017, 10:36 AM
Against going:

He's not projected in the first round


This is really the only argument for me. Guaranteed money is worth leaving. Otherwise, it's a family descision about whether or not playing overseas or other "decent" money is worth it.

Personaly, I hope he comes back.

MCFinARL
03-27-2017, 10:38 AM
Nolan got a 1-year Masters from Fuqua.

Interesting--it's not listed in his 4th-year bio from Duke (http://www.goduke.com/ViewArticle.dbml?ATCLID=1211262&DB_OEM_ID=4200), where he was described as a senior, nor in his coaching bio, which says he graduated in 2011 and doesn't mention any postgraduate work. http://www.goduke.com/ViewArticle.dbml?DB_OEM_ID=4200&ATCLID=210736415

If you are sure he got this degree, might it have been when he was rehabbing his injured knee after playing professionally, rather than when he was still playing for Duke?

Jeffrey
03-27-2017, 10:42 AM
I can assure you there are some masters that require very, very, very, VERY little work.

IIRC, Grayson is a solid student. Why get an easy degree of very limited value?

IMO, one of the best reasons for Grayson to return is to get a high quality advanced degree.

flyingdutchdevil
03-27-2017, 10:46 AM
Interesting--it's not listed in his 4th-year bio from Duke (http://www.goduke.com/ViewArticle.dbml?ATCLID=1211262&DB_OEM_ID=4200), where he was described as a senior, nor in his coaching bio, which says he graduated in 2011 and doesn't mention any postgraduate work. http://www.goduke.com/ViewArticle.dbml?DB_OEM_ID=4200&ATCLID=210736415

If you are sure he got this degree, might it have been when he was rehabbing his injured knee after playing professionally, rather than when he was still playing for Duke?

It's a good question. When I was at Fuqua, there were plenty of stories about Nolan being part of the MMS program: http://www.fuqua.duke.edu/mms-foundations-of-business/

At Fuqua, you can't really "take a class here and there" as an undergrad. So he must have been part of the program.

CDu
03-27-2017, 10:49 AM
Nolan got a 1-year Masters from Fuqua.


Interesting--it's not listed in his 4th-year bio from Duke (http://www.goduke.com/ViewArticle.dbml?ATCLID=1211262&DB_OEM_ID=4200), where he was described as a senior, nor in his coaching bio, which says he graduated in 2011 and doesn't mention any postgraduate work. http://www.goduke.com/ViewArticle.dbml?DB_OEM_ID=4200&ATCLID=210736415

If you are sure he got this degree, might it have been when he was rehabbing his injured knee after playing professionally, rather than when he was still playing for Duke?


It's a good question. When I was at Fuqua, there were plenty of stories about Nolan being part of the MMS program: http://www.fuqua.duke.edu/mms-foundations-of-business/

At Fuqua, you can't really "take a class here and there" as an undergrad. So he must have been part of the program.

Either that or they were unfounded rumors.

Seems like if he got a degree from Fuqua, he'd be pretty proud of it and it would be on his bio.

For reference, he got his undergrad degree (Bachelor of Arts) from Duke in 2011:
https://commencement.duke.edu/sites/default/files/documents/2011%20Commencement%20Program.pdf

flyingdutchdevil
03-27-2017, 10:53 AM
IIRC, Grayson is a solid student. Why get an easy degree of very limited value?

IMO, one of the best reasons for Grayson to return is to get a high quality advanced degree.

No one is suggesting he take an easy masters. We are saying that, if Grayson wants to focus 100% on basketball, there are easy masters out there.

Troublemaker
03-27-2017, 11:07 AM
I think that thought process came from DBR, not Grayson. Don't get me wrong - it makes complete sense. There is nothing to indicate that Grayson was going to bolt. Graduating early is a solid piece of evidence, but he could pull a Nolan and get a Masters in something.

IMO, Grayson will go pro. But he should come back. Weaker draft next year, prove that this year was an anomaly, etc etc etc.

I'd say there's a very high likelihood the plan was to leave after 3 even though, as you note, we don't know 100% for sure. I don't think an athlete with pro aspirations is going to pack his class schedule so tightly without a goal in mind. That goal was to have his cake and eat it, too -- leave early from Duke, but still with a degree.




He can get away from the ridiculous media microscope
Even as a rookie, maybe he can get a call from the refs in the NBA and not have to put up with teams taking cheap shots at him trying to bait him into a response

Grayson, if you're reading this, the media microscope will not go away. ESPN's NBA shows can't wait to show you making rookie mistakes and hope to see you dunked on so they can replay it all week. NBA players know about you and want to dunk on you and embarrass you.

Come back to Duke. Work on your leadership skills and lead a young, talented team the way Quinn led you and a bunch of freshmen in 2015. You can't run and hide from the microscope and from Duke hatred. But you can get payback. You can learn to control your intensity, play well, lead, win and shove it in the faces of all the haters. From what I understand from internet NFL coverage this past season, Tom Brady and the Patriots went into so-called "Eff You mode" and won the Super Bowl. At Duke, we're not so crass, but you and the 2017-18 team can go into "Bless Your Heart mode" and have a great season, if the Basketball Gods see fit to bless you and the team with some good health. That's going to be much more fun than your rookie season in the NBA.

Jeffrey
03-27-2017, 11:20 AM
From what I understand from internet NFL coverage this past season, Tom Brady and the Patriots went into so-called "Eff You mode" and won the Super Bowl. At Duke, we're not so crass, but you and the 2017-18 team can go into "Bless Your Heart mode" and have a great season....

I gather you do not read lips.

Troublemaker
03-27-2017, 11:21 AM
I gather you do not read lips.

Polish coaches exempted.

Jeffrey
03-27-2017, 11:28 AM
Polish coaches exempted.

I'm very disappointed I do not qualify for that exemption. My 8 year old daughter is making serious green, off of me, with her swear jar.

AnotherNYCDukeFan
03-27-2017, 11:34 AM
I'm surprised no one has mentioned the third option: Graduate and go play in Europe. Still gets paid. Still gets out of the spot light. Still gets to play competitive ball.

I've loved watching the kid play all three years, but I wouldn't wish the hassle he got this year on anyone.

Reddevil
03-27-2017, 11:34 AM
Didn't Grayson say he was a 4-year guy upon accepting his original scholarship? Perhaps the 3-year plan kicked in after the National Championship when he realized he would be vital to the team as a soph, and the possibility of going pro early was a reality.

We often hear that the NBA drafts on potential, and his took a downturn this year. It seems to me that the potential to increase his pro value by having a successful forth year outweighs going to Europe or any other option. Of course I am not Grayson Allen. I wish him well, and selfishly want to see him at Duke next year.

Jeffrey
03-27-2017, 11:36 AM
I'm surprised no one has mentioned the third option: Graduate and go play in Europe. Still gets paid. Still gets out of the spot light. Still gets to play competitive ball.

I've loved watching the kid play all three years, but I wouldn't wish the hassle he got this year on anyone.

IMO, if you can play in the NBA, you play in the NBA.

duke79
03-27-2017, 11:37 AM
Interesting. I haven't seen anything where Grayson as said what he wants. I think that it was clear that before the season started that his plan was to play this year, graduate and go to the NBA. Then he got injured 37 times and had a mediocre junior season (as compared to what it could have been). I think we can clearly make arguments both ways for what he should do:

For going:

He's good enough
He can get away from the ridiculous media microscope
Even as a rookie, maybe he can get a call from the refs in the NBA and not have to put up with teams taking cheap shots at him trying to bait him into a response
Even if he's not drafted, or not drafted in the first round, he can still make a roster and get paid
If healthy he'll do fine at pre-draft workouts


Against going:

He's not projected in the first round
A healthy senior season could greatly increase his draft status
He really seems to love Duke and might want to take another shot at the NCAA tournament and would enjoy being a senior captain


There are more reasons on both sides but my main point is that it's easy to make valid arguments both ways. Personally, selfishly, I hope he stays.

Good summary of his options! Admittedly, he has a hard choice with no really easy or good choices in front of him. If he leaves, no guarantee of making an NBA roster, so he may end up in the D-league or have to play overseas. If he stays, he will get, more or less, the same amount of bad publicity next season but if he avoids trouble (i.e., no more tripping or cheap shots), he could rehabilitate himself in the eyes of many, including NBA GM's (assuming he has a better basketball season than this past year). I guess there is always the risk of a career-ending injury, though.

CDu
03-27-2017, 11:43 AM
I'm surprised no one has mentioned the third option: Graduate and go play in Europe. Still gets paid. Still gets out of the spot light. Still gets to play competitive ball.

I've loved watching the kid play all three years, but I wouldn't wish the hassle he got this year on anyone.

I don't think this option is as appealing as it may seem. Playing overseas is tough. The leagues are rougher, the pay isn't typically as good, the opportunities are less, and teams aren't generally as supportive of their players, and it is a HUGE culture shift. It's definitely not for everyone.

There are a few places in which the pay can be good and the league is respected. But there are only a few positions available per team for an American-born player. So it's not as likely that you wind up at a posh job.

Nolan Smith, for example, wound up playing in Croatia and Turkey after college. And that's on the upper end of player options.

So while it is technically an option, I would put it as a very distant third on the list of possibilities. I think he'll play in the NBA whenever he goes pro. Whether that is this coming year or the next, I don't know. But I don't see playing overseas as Allen's next stop.

flyingdutchdevil
03-27-2017, 11:44 AM
Grayson, if you're reading this, the media microscope will not go away. ESPN's NBA shows can't wait to show you making rookie mistakes and hope to see you dunked on so they can replay it all week. NBA players know about you and want to dunk on you and embarrass you.

I disagree. If you go to the NBA, the media microscope gets significantly reduced. No one cares about your NBA career if you aren't a complete headcase (JR Smith, Matt Barnes, Latrell Sprewell, Delonte West, etc). The NBA is reserved for stars, not college kids who were hated in college.

Look at JJ Redick, Marcus Smart, or Tyler Hansbrough: three highly unpopular college players who don't get a tenth of the attention they once got in college.

If you want to escape the media attention, the NBA is your best bet for a player like Grayson. Sure - he can get dunked on. But at least the media will stop talking about it after a day. And if Grayson trips anyone? Omg - he's gonna get it from the opposing team in the form of an insanely hard foul.

flyingdutchdevil
03-27-2017, 11:45 AM
I don't think this option is as appealing as it may seem. Playing overseas is tough. The leagues are rougher, the pay isn't typically as good, the opportunities are less, and teams aren't generally as supportive of their players, and it is a HUGE culture shift. It's definitely not for everyone.

There are a few places in which the pay can be good and the league is respected. But there are only a few positions available per team for an American-born player. So it's not as likely that you wind up at a posh job.

Nolan Smith, for example, wound up playing in Croatia and Turkey after college. And that's on the upper end of player options.

So while it is technically an option, I would put it as a very distant third on the list of possibilities.

Technically, he played in the NBA after college. After that 2-year experiment, he went to Croatia and Turkey.

CDu
03-27-2017, 11:47 AM
Technically, he played in the NBA after college. After that 2-year experiment, he went to Croatia and Turkey.

Yes. Further illustrating the point: it's not common for a kid coming straight out of college to land in a good spot overseas. Smith had a great college career AND NBA experience, and still wound up in Croatia and Turkey (albeit a really good team in Turkey).

Troublemaker
03-27-2017, 11:49 AM
I disagree. If you go to the NBA, the media microscope gets significantly reduced. No one cares about your NBA career if you aren't a complete headcase (JR Smith, Matt Barnes, Latrell Sprewell, Delonte West, etc). The NBA is reserved for stars, not college kids who were hated in college.

Look at JJ Redick, Marcus Smart, or Tyler Hansbrough: three highly unpopular college players who don't get a tenth of the attention they once got in college.

If you want to escape the media attention, the NBA is your best bet for a player like Grayson. Sure - he can get dunked on. But at least the media will stop talking about it after a day. And if Grayson trips anyone? Omg - he's gonna get it from the opposing team in the form of an insanely hard foul.

I'm only talking about the next year. If Grayson leaves, you're going to be shocked how much attention he still receives. Obviously, over a period of many years, it will eventually dissipate. However, Grayson's going to have more fun in a Duke uniform next year than an NBA one.

flyingdutchdevil
03-27-2017, 11:53 AM
I'm only talking about the next year. If Grayson leaves, you're going to be shocked how much attention he still receives. Obviously, over a period of many years, it will eventually dissipate. However, Grayson's going to have more fun in a Duke uniform next year than an NBA one.

But is there a previous case study of an NBA rookie who isn't a lottery pick getting that much media attention for something that he did previously? I can't think of one.

I also understand that there is no case study for what we saw this year with Grayson and the media.

I'm under the impression the NBA is a clean slate, especially with regards to players with reputations.

DinoDuke
03-27-2017, 11:56 AM
But how could he go to school at UNC and play for Duke?

Done

Jeffrey
03-27-2017, 11:57 AM
However, Grayson's going to have more fun in a Duke uniform next year than an NBA one.

I totally agree! Being a star player, loved by your fans, on a very good team, is more fun than sitting at the end of a bench. Excluding, the fun cash brings.

pfrduke
03-27-2017, 12:03 PM
But is there a previous case study of an NBA rookie who isn't a lottery pick getting that much media attention for something that he did previously? I can't think of one.

I also understand that there is no case study for what we saw this year with Grayson and the media.

I'm under the impression the NBA is a clean slate, especially with regards to players with reputations.

It's a different sport, and the reasons motivating the coverage are very different, but Grayson's coverage has reminded me of the coverage afforded to Johnny Manziel, whose media spotlight did not shrink in the pros even though his role on the field did.

CDu
03-27-2017, 12:12 PM
It's a different sport, and the reasons motivating the coverage are very different, but Grayson's coverage has reminded me of the coverage afforded to Johnny Manziel, whose media spotlight did not shrink in the pros even though his role on the field did.

I think even that is a bit different as Maziel was a bigger college star than Allen AND Manziel continued to make waves off the field in the pros.

Now, if Allen continues to have issues with tripping people, maybe he'll continue to get heat. But his every move won't be analyzed in the NBA the way it has been this year in college.

Of course, to some degree, folks have already moved on. There hasn't been nearly the same analysis of him in March as there was in January and February. Folks looking for the slightest of offenses have for the most part given up. So I suspect that - unless he does something really egregious again - he'll largely go unscathed even at Duke. I mean, he'll still get hated on by opposing fans. But I suspect that the media scrutiny will largely go away, as it was doing later on in this season.

flyingdutchdevil
03-27-2017, 12:12 PM
It's a different sport, and the reasons motivating the coverage are very different, but Grayson's coverage has reminded me of the coverage afforded to Johnny Manziel, whose media spotlight did not shrink in the pros even though his role on the field did.

Johnny Football is a headcase. The coverage was warranted. If you think that Grayson will continue tripping folks in the NBA and showing emotional outburst, then I agree Johnny Football is a very appropriate analog.

Troublemaker
03-27-2017, 01:38 PM
I totally agree! Being a star player, loved by your fans, on a very good team, is more fun than sitting at the end of a bench. Excluding, the fun cash brings.

Exactly. It's almost impossible for a player who likes school (or at least doesn't mind school to the tune of graduating in 3 years) to NOT enjoy his senior season in college more than his rookie season in the NBA. There may be other reasons for Grayson to leave, but I don't believe enjoyment should be listed as one.

AnotherNYCDukeFan
03-27-2017, 01:49 PM
IMO, if you can play in the NBA, you play in the NBA.

I definitely agree. I was just working under the original premise that Grayson is not the draft big boards and therefore could find himself out of an NBA opportunity.

MrPoon
03-27-2017, 02:09 PM
I am absolutely convincied that if GA decides to go, he'll go in the first round. I say that because he's a good kid and when teams meet with him they'll see through the ESPN/media machine. Secondly, at any combine he'll show (once healthy) his athleticism, his team first mentality and a great jumper.
It won't be lottery, not after this year and with this draft's depth, but he'll get a gauranteed contract.

To me the question is, do you want to go late in the first round, or work hard to move up in, what appears to be, a less deep draft next year, but risk being a year older and even less compelling in NBA eyes. It's not about academics at this point. K may have some insights as to ways to get better but I also think this roster is looking for a primary ball handler and that may mean GA has a more "succesful" senior seasons, but it may show NBA scouts less of the skills they want from GA.

My view is go, even without a first round contract and earn the NBA roster spot. Curry has made it and, in my view, GA offers more than Curry.

duke79
03-27-2017, 02:21 PM
I totally agree! Being a star player, loved by your fans, on a very good team, is more fun than sitting at the end of a bench. Excluding, the fun cash brings.

So true !

kAzE
03-27-2017, 02:57 PM
I might be the only one who thinks this, but I think there's a better than 50% chance both Grayson and Luke come back.

I thought Grayson was gone for sure all year, but now that he's projected as a mid to late 2nd rounder, I'm not so sure. He can't be THAT anxious to leave. I believe he genuinely loves Duke. Obviously, he isn't a fan of the media scrutiny, but I think the team has done a nice job of keeping him focused since the last tripping incident. He's a smart kid, I think he knows he has a good chance to be a first rounder if he has a good year next year.

As for Luke, his stock dipped a bit after his 2 mediocre NCAAT performances, and he's not gotten past the sweet 16 since he's been here. I think he's the type of guy who really wants to make his mark in the tournament, and is raring to come back even better and get to the final four.

Call me crazy, but it seemed like those 2 really loved playing with each other. I think they may agree to come back and give it one more go . . . or at least I selfishly hope so :)

kako
03-27-2017, 03:05 PM
Regarding speculation on where he will get drafted - I'm sure K is looking into this and will give the Allen family the best view. It will be clearer after the NBA season ends and the order better defined. But personally I don't think he goes 1st round, though he could definitely go 2nd. Players can still get paid if they make the team as a 2nd-rounder, or they go NBDL with the team holding rights. McRoberts is a good example of a guy who was sent to the NBDL and now is a solid NBA reserve. If Allen's NBA career is like McBob's, it should be considered acceptable from a monetary standpoint.

Regarding media focus on Allen in the NBA. Unless he trips players, has tantrums *and* is a rotation player or more likely a starter, he won't get much focus at all. He's no longer at Duke, he's in the Association. He's a small fish in a big pond, and the Duke hate no longer will draw eyeballs there. Look at guys like Boogie Cousins, Rasheed Wallace, Draymond Green, etc. They had/have regular T outbursts - Green even took a swipe at LeBron's family jewels in the Finals - and though it's mentioned, it's never the continued focus of the media. There's sooooooo much more in the NBA to draw attention - the national media doesn't need Allen to draw eyeballs like in the NCAAs (a more regional sport except for Duke, being a more nationally-known team). I'm sure you will never see a Grayson Allen Shoe-Cam in the pros. So IMO any talk that this will all continue to the extent that it was this past year is nonsense.

bbosbbos
03-27-2017, 03:05 PM
I might be the only one who thinks this, but I think there's a better than 50% chance both Grayson and Luke come back.



If that is the case, why would K recruit Dual, Knox and Bamba? There are only 200 min PT.

CDu
03-27-2017, 03:14 PM
If that is the case, why would K recruit Dual, Knox and Bamba? There are only 200 min PT.

Because there is a non-zero chance that those guys don't both come back. And there is a non-zero chance that each of the guys they are recruiting says "no."

Recruiting isn't an exact science. You have to overrecruit to be safe because you don't know who will stick around and you don't know who will say "yes."

That being said, I am agnostic about the chances of either Kennard or Allen returning. If I had to guess, I'd say one will be back. But I could just as easily see both going, and I could see a scenario in which both return.

kako
03-27-2017, 03:16 PM
Call me crazy, but it seemed like those 2 really loved playing with each other. I think they may agree to come back and give it one more go . . . or at least I selfishly hope so :)

Very respectfully, and only since you said it, I think you are crazy :)

Just joking, but think about it. You are guaranteed millions of dollars to be a first round pick. If you use your money wisely, you are set for life at 20 years old. Two mediocre games (and one against USC's killer D) will not tank Kennard's stock. I'll say it now - if Kennard is available when the Warriors draft, they would take him. He shoots the 3, proven he can follow a team concept, rebounds, passes and can find his own shot. IMO he's a perfect small ball Warrior fit. He could back up Thompson, though Kennard's D needs to improve. But I don't think he even gets to the Warriors, he will go lower.

kAzE
03-27-2017, 03:21 PM
Just joking, but think about it. You are guaranteed millions of dollars to be a first round pick. If you use your money wisely, you are set for life at 20 years old. Two mediocre games (and one against USC's killer D) will not tank Kennard's stock. I'll say it now - if Kennard is available when the Warriors draft, they would take him. He shoots the 3, proven he can follow a team concept, rebounds, passes and can find his own shot. IMO he's a perfect small ball Warrior fit. He could back up Thompson, though Kennard's D needs to improve. But I don't think he even gets to the Warriors, he will go lower.

Grayson was in the exact same position last year and came back. It's not really that big of a stretch. And of course I know it's not the best thing to do financially.

flyingdutchdevil
03-27-2017, 03:25 PM
Very respectfully, and only since you said it, I think you are crazy :)

Just joking, but think about it. You are guaranteed millions of dollars to be a first round pick. If you use your money wisely, you are set for life at 20 years old. Two mediocre games (and one against USC's killer D) will not tank Kennard's stock. I'll say it now - if Kennard is available when the Warriors draft, they would take him. He shoots the 3, proven he can follow a team concept, rebounds, passes and can find his own shot. IMO he's a perfect small ball Warrior fit. He could back up Thompson, though Kennard's D needs to improve. But I don't think he even gets to the Warriors, he will go lower.

I agree that Kennard is a first round pick. I agree he will go pro. I disagree with your assessment of Kennard.

He shoots 3s, is a solid team player, and has a solid handle. He is a good rebounder for his position at the college level. He'll get murdered on the boards at the NBA. Also, his defense doesn't need improvement. Improvement implies it's there to begin with. Kennard's D is really, really bad. Both on team and individual D. What worries me is that he tries but is really, really bad at it.

IMO - Kennard is a fairly risky player to draft. He's got the shot, and he's crafty on the college level, but that's really it. 3-and-no-D players get bounced out the league very regularly. Kennard really needs to improve his mid-range game against highly athlete teams (FSU, USC, etc). That, IMO, is where he's really struggled on offense.

kako
03-27-2017, 03:28 PM
Grayson was in the exact same position last year and came back.

And that decision has costed him, unfortunately.

CDu
03-27-2017, 03:29 PM
Grayson was in the exact same position last year and came back. It's not really that big of a stretch. And of course I know it's not the best thing to do financially.

Well, he wasn't in the exact same position. He was in arguably a better draft position, but potentially a worse "graduation" position.

We don't know if he is still (or ever was) on schedule to graduate in May. We don't know if his return was due to wanting to graduate or something else. But I think it's fair to say that he isn't in the same position he was in last year.

kako
03-27-2017, 03:37 PM
I agree that Kennard is a first round pick. I agree he will go pro. I disagree with your assessment of Kennard.

He shoots 3s, is a solid team player, and has a solid handle. He is a good rebounder for his position at the college level. He'll get murdered on the boards at the NBA. Also, his defense doesn't need improvement. Improvement implies it's there to begin with. Kennard's D is really, really bad. Both on team and individual D. What worries me is that he tries but is really, really bad at it.

IMO - Kennard is a fairly risky player to draft. He's got the shot, and he's crafty on the college level, but that's really it. 3-and-no-D players get bounced out the league very regularly. Kennard really needs to improve his mid-range game against highly athlete teams (FSU, USC, etc). That, IMO, is where he's really struggled on offense.

Well, I do agree with you about his D.

The other factor I didn't mention is that he's white. It's a factor in the NBA for their fan bases. Thus the Celtics, Jazz, Thunder - all now drafting later in the 1st round (and probably a couple of others I am forgetting) could take that into account when drafting. Also I was reminded that the Warriors don't have a draft pick this year, but the Jazz have theirs.

DukeTrinity11
03-27-2017, 04:06 PM
I agree that Kennard is a first round pick. I agree he will go pro. I disagree with your assessment of Kennard.

He shoots 3s, is a solid team player, and has a solid handle. He is a good rebounder for his position at the college level. He'll get murdered on the boards at the NBA. Also, his defense doesn't need improvement. Improvement implies it's there to begin with. Kennard's D is really, really bad. Both on team and individual D. What worries me is that he tries but is really, really bad at it.

IMO - Kennard is a fairly risky player to draft. He's got the shot, and he's crafty on the college level, but that's really it. 3-and-no-D players get bounced out the league very regularly. Kennard really needs to improve his mid-range game against highly athlete teams (FSU, USC, etc). That, IMO, is where he's really struggled on offense.
This adds further credence to the notion that Kennard should strike while the iron is hot and declare for the NBA draft this year. If he comes back next year and the same flaws exist, then he can kiss that first round contract goodbye.

I agree that Luke isn't really a NBA player but hey, hopefully he fools a few NBA GMs in a few months and becomes a millionaire!! :cool:

richardjackson199
03-27-2017, 04:33 PM
Interesting. I haven't seen anything where Grayson as said what he wants. I think that it was clear that before the season started that his plan was to play this year, graduate and go to the NBA. Then he got injured 37 times and had a mediocre junior season (as compared to what it could have been). I think we can clearly make arguments both ways for what he should do:

For going:

He's good enough
He can get away from the ridiculous media microscope
Even as a rookie, maybe he can get a call from the refs in the NBA and not have to put up with teams taking cheap shots at him trying to bait him into a response
Even if he's not drafted, or not drafted in the first round, he can still make a roster and get paid
If healthy he'll do fine at pre-draft workouts


Against going:

He's not projected in the first round
A healthy senior season could greatly increase his draft status
He really seems to love Duke and might want to take another shot at the NCAA tournament and would enjoy being a senior captain


There are more reasons on both sides but my main point is that it's easy to make valid arguments both ways. Personally, selfishly, I hope he stays.

Don't look now, but maybe Grayson is projected in the first round:

http://www.nbadraft.net/2017mock_draft

Of course other draft boards have him as a mid -2nd round pick. So you're right - it's not like last year where he was certainly a first round pick. But he might be. He could certainly test the waters and see what they think.

I hope Grayson comes back so we can watch him play a spectacular senior year at Duke of course. But I want all of them to do what is best for them. That will certainly be debatable for several of these guys. I can never remember going into an offseason with this much uncertainty about what next year's team will look like. I trust K - he saw this coming and usually has a plan.

cato
03-27-2017, 04:48 PM
Grayson was in the exact same position last year and came back. It's not really that big of a stretch. And of course I know it's not the best thing to do financially.

You aren't suggesting that Grayson's experience will convince Luke to stay, are you?

Jeffrey
03-27-2017, 05:00 PM
I might be the only one who thinks this, but I think there's a better than 50% chance both Grayson and Luke come back.


I'll take the other side of that line, for sure! How much green?

flyingdutchdevil
03-27-2017, 05:02 PM
Well, he wasn't in the exact same position. He was in arguably a better draft position, but potentially a worse "graduation" position.

We don't know if he is still (or ever was) on schedule to graduate in May. We don't know if his return was due to wanting to graduate or something else. But I think it's fair to say that he isn't in the same position he was in last year.

I think kaze means that Kennard is in the position that Grayson was in last year. If that's what kaze is saying, I get it: first round pick, opportunity to come back and improve your stock, get a degree, etc etc etc.

sagegrouse
03-27-2017, 05:03 PM
I agree that Kennard is a first round pick. I agree he will go pro. I disagree with your assessment of Kennard.

He shoots 3s, is a solid team player, and has a solid handle. He is a good rebounder for his position at the college level. He'll get murdered on the boards at the NBA. Also, his defense doesn't need improvement. Improvement implies it's there to begin with. Kennard's D is really, really bad. Both on team and individual D. What worries me is that he tries but is really, really bad at it.

IMO - Kennard is a fairly risky player to draft. He's got the shot, and he's crafty on the college level, but that's really it. 3-and-no-D players get bounced out the league very regularly. Kennard really needs to improve his mid-range game against highly athlete teams (FSU, USC, etc). That, IMO, is where he's really struggled on offense.

I was impressed by Pitino's comment that Kennard, because of his offensive skills, was one of the 2-3 best players in college. Defense? Pitino said it is easy to find defensive players; skilled offensive players like Kennard are rare indeed. [Paraphrase 'cuz I'm too lazy to look it up.]

BD80
03-27-2017, 05:08 PM
It's not like it's a choice with only bad alternatives like Sophie's. Either he gets to be a Senior leader for Duke or chase an NBA dream. He doesn't have to go if he doesn't want to. He should test the water and see where he stands. If he's not sold on declaring, cmon back and try for another championship and possible jersey immortality.

Grayson also has the option of graduating and transferring to another school for a graduate degree, playing without sitting. Not saying he will, just listing options.

Jeffrey
03-27-2017, 05:17 PM
I was impressed by Pitino's comment that Kennard, because of his offensive skills, was one of the 2-3 best players in college. Defense? Pitino said it is easy to find defensive players; skilled offensive players like Kennard are rare indeed. [Paraphrase 'cuz I'm too lazy to look it up.]

Don't be so impressed by Pitino. It might have been right after Pitino had a few beers and saw a picture of Luke's mother. Pitino has blurred vision which can last for up to 15 seconds.

mgtr
03-27-2017, 05:31 PM
In the spring, a young man's fancy turns to thoughts of the NBA draft. I looked at several mock drafts, and it is interesting how different they are, even if they were just updated. Questions: Which Jackson will be drafted first? Will Fox or Monk be drafted first? How many international players will be in the first round? (I am always surprised at the actual number on draft night). Will Kennard be drafted in the first round, and if so, how high? Where will Tatum and Giles be drafted?
I would suggest that most of these questions will not be answered until the combine, and maybe not even then. The whole thing seems a little like Monopoly with real money.

flyingdutchdevil
03-27-2017, 05:45 PM
In the spring, a young man's fancy turns to thoughts of the NBA draft. I looked at several mock drafts, and it is interesting how different they are, even if they were just updated. Questions: Which Jackson will be drafted first? Will Fox or Monk be drafted first? How many international players will be in the first round? (I am always surprised at the actual number on draft night). Will Kennard be drafted in the first round, and if so, how high? Where will Tatum and Giles be drafted?
I would suggest that most of these questions will not be answered until the combine, and maybe not even then. The whole thing seems a little like Monopoly with real money.

Wait? Seriously? There are mock drafts that have Justin Jackson ahead of Josh Jackson? Are they Inside Carolina mock drafts? I get the Monk v Fox debate, but the Jackson v Jackson debate isn't a debate.

uh_no
03-27-2017, 06:35 PM
I was impressed by Pitino's comment that Kennard, because of his offensive skills, was one of the 2-3 best players in college. Defense? Pitino said it is easy to find defensive players; skilled offensive players like Kennard are rare indeed. [Paraphrase 'cuz I'm too lazy to look it up.]

Hey, maybe he can share some of his secrets with K?

elvis14
03-27-2017, 10:49 PM
I agree that Kennard is a first round pick. I agree he will go pro. I disagree with your assessment of Kennard.

He shoots 3s, is a solid team player, and has a solid handle. He is a good rebounder for his position at the college level. He'll get murdered on the boards at the NBA. Also, his defense doesn't need improvement. Improvement implies it's there to begin with. Kennard's D is really, really bad. Both on team and individual D. What worries me is that he tries but is really, really bad at it.

IMO - Kennard is a fairly risky player to draft. He's got the shot, and he's crafty on the college level, but that's really it. 3-and-no-D players get bounced out the league very regularly. Kennard really needs to improve his mid-range game against highly athlete teams (FSU, USC, etc). That, IMO, is where he's really struggled on offense.


Well, I do agree with you about his D.

I have to admit I'm glad to hear you guys say this about Luke's D. A few weeks ago a good friend that I watch games with said it to me. I started watching games and playing close attention to Luke's defense. I love the kid and he can score like crazy but holy smokes his defense is horrible. I've managed not to come right out and say it but, sadly, it's so true.

Also, I think Pitino has it backwards. Seems like it's easy to find players that can score (Tatum, Ingram, Jah, Jabari...and that's just the OAD freshman). Seems like it's really hard to find guys that can play good defense (Justise, some other guy that probably played for another team).

cato
03-27-2017, 11:37 PM
Seems like it's easy to find players that can score (Tatum, Ingram, Jah, Jabari...and that's just the OAD freshman).

Oh, just those guys? Scorers like that come around all the time. Duke alone is averaging one a year.

Troublemaker
03-28-2017, 12:16 AM
Also, I think Pitino has it backwards. Seems like it's easy to find players that can score (Tatum, Ingram, Jah, Jabari...and that's just the OAD freshman). Seems like it's really hard to find guys that can play good defense (Justise, some other guy that probably played for another team).

That's just our experience, though, because we have had a tendency (and the recruiting power) to land offensive players. Louisville fans would kill to be able to get some of our guys to suit up for them. The grass is always greener...

That said, Pitino is probably right. I'm going to be lazy and not search for a link, but I've definitely read that NBA front offices value the player who can put the ball in the basket more. It's not about ticket sales; talented offensive players are legitimately more scarce than defensive players.

yancem
03-28-2017, 07:25 AM
That's just our experience, though, because we have had a tendency (and the recruiting power) to land offensive players. Louisville fans would kill to be able to get some of our guys to suit up for them. The grass is always greener...

That said, Pitino is probably right. I'm going to be lazy and not search for a link, but I've definitely read that NBA front offices value the player who can put the ball in the basket more. It's not about ticket sales; talented offensive players are legitimately more scarce than defensive players.

Defense is a lot about effort while offense is more about skill. Same thing is true in other sports. The trick is to find and offensively skilled player willing to put in the effort on the defensive side of the ball. They usually end up in the HOF because there aren't many of them.

flyingdutchdevil
03-28-2017, 11:36 AM
Defense is a lot about effort while offense is more about skill. Same thing is true in other sports. The trick is to find and offensively skilled player willing to put in the effort on the defensive side of the ball. They usually end up in the HOF because there aren't many of them.

I think we really simplify defense. With Luke, I saw a ton of effort. The dude is just really, really bad at staying in front of his man. IMO, Luke is so impressive on offense because his craftiness makes up for his complete lack of athleticism and speed. That's the beauty of Luke on offense.

Defense is also about working as a unit. The one thing you hear on DBR a lot is, "I disagree. Player X is good at D". If these statements are true, then our D would be good. But it's clearly not. Our ability to play D as a team is what hurts us: rotations, help, etc.

FerryFor50
03-28-2017, 11:50 AM
I think we really simplify defense. With Luke, I saw a ton of effort. The dude is just really, really bad at staying in front of his man. IMO, Luke is so impressive on offense because his craftiness makes up for his complete lack of athleticism and speed. That's the beauty of Luke on offense.

Defense is also about working as a unit. The one thing you hear on DBR a lot is, "I disagree. Player X is good at D". If these statements are true, then our D would be good. But it's clearly not. Our ability to play D as a team is what hurts us: rotations, help, etc.

I think that, even worse than his ability to stay in front of his man, is his ability to stay with his man when he doesn't have the ball. Luke tends to ball watch a lot, and loses his man on cuts frequently. That creates chaos for the rest of the defense, as they have to scramble to switch and... dunk/layup.

CDu
03-28-2017, 11:54 AM
I think we really simplify defense. With Luke, I saw a ton of effort. The dude is just really, really bad at staying in front of his man. IMO, Luke is so impressive on offense because his craftiness makes up for his complete lack of athleticism and speed. That's the beauty of Luke on offense.

Defense is also about working as a unit. The one thing you hear on DBR a lot is, "I disagree. Player X is good at D". If these statements are true, then our D would be good. But it's clearly not. Our ability to play D as a team is what hurts us: rotations, help, etc.

I'll be honest: I don't think a lack of athleticism/speed was the reason Kennard struggled to stay in front of his man. I think it is a combination of court awareness, reflexes, and lack of effort. He doesn't seem to fight to get back into position once he's a half-step slow. He basically stops moving. This isn't every time, but it happens a lot. Kennard is every bit as athletic as Matt Jones. Probably moreso. But Jones is a great defender, whereas Kennard isn't.

Individual defense really IS largely about effort and tenacity. You have to WANT to play individual defense. Every possession. Every step. If you aren't fully committed, you are going to get beaten. Kennard just seemingly hasn't developed that desire to play on-ball defense yet. Maybe some of that is because he knew he had to play close to 40 minutes, and knew that his team REALLY needed his offense. But that commitment to effort on defense hasn't yet shown up for him.

Don't get me wrong: he is a GREAT player and we don't do nearly as well as we did without him. I'm a big fan of his and his offensive skill set is spectacular. But on defense, it's just not there.

Matches
03-28-2017, 12:56 PM
I agree that Luke isn't really a NBA player but hey, hopefully he fools a few NBA GMs in a few months and becomes a millionaire!! :cool:

I agree he's a fringe NBA player right now - but I thought the same thing about JJ Reddick. In fact I think they're pretty similar players, both good shooters and overall good scorers, not unathletic but not known for defense. Kennard's still got time to improve his D and/or handle - it's just a question of whether he'd like to do that while getting paid for it, or try to up his draft stock by playing another year in college. The safe decision is to go, but I've no insight into what he'll actually do.

MaxAMillion
03-28-2017, 01:15 PM
Defense is a lot about effort while offense is more about skill. Same thing is true in other sports. The trick is to find and offensively skilled player willing to put in the effort on the defensive side of the ball. They usually end up in the HOF because there aren't many of them.

I recently listened to a Pitino podcast and he talked about the blown defensive assignments being a big part of why they lost to UM. He had a much more experienced team and yet they apparently blew switches and did not stop UM from going right. Playing defense is a lot more involved than people think. Not having continuity hurt this Duke team more tha most realize. Despite the problems with availability, this still would have been a final four team if Duke was playing the top high school recruit every night in their rotation rather than an injured player who wasn't top 75 caliber. How some people continue to not focus on all the injuries is beyond me. It is nonsense...just like Louisville fans who think Pitino has to change. Great coaches didn't forget how to prepare a team just because fans are disappointed in the tournament result.

Reilly
03-28-2017, 01:16 PM
In the spring, a young man's fancy turns to thoughts of the NBA draft ...

What Tom Wolfe might call the season of the rising sap.

flyingdutchdevil
03-28-2017, 01:37 PM
I agree he's a fringe NBA player right now - but I thought the same thing about JJ Reddick. In fact I think they're pretty similar players, both good shooters and overall good scorers, not unathletic but not known for defense. Kennard's still got time to improve his D and/or handle - it's just a question of whether he'd like to do that while getting paid for it, or try to up his draft stock by playing another year in college. The safe decision is to go, but I've no insight into what he'll actually do.

There is the difference, IMO. JJ wasn't known for defense, but he had incredible IQ on the defensive end and wasn't a liability defensively. Remember the Duke-UNC game at Cameron in 2005? When JJ played one of the best defensive possessions by denying McCants the ball? That was all cerebral.

Kennard is a liability on D.

CDu
03-28-2017, 01:40 PM
There is the difference, IMO. JJ wasn't known for defense, but he had incredible IQ on the defensive end and wasn't a liability defensively. Remember the Duke-UNC game at Cameron in 2005? When JJ played one of the best defensive possessions by denying McCants the ball? That was all cerebral.

Kennard is a liability on D.

Let's be fair here. Redick was also a liability on defense as a freshman and a sophomore. He was just well-hidden by Duhon, Williams, Jones/Deng, Ewing, and Dockery playing around him. He got more crafty as a junior and senior. So while Kennard is certainly still quite bad on that end, I think he's still well ahead of where Redick was at the same point in their careers.

Of course, Redick's career really took off with huge improvements each of the last two years of his career.

I'd say that Kennard is offensively about where Redick was as a junior, and defensively about where Redick was as a sophomore.

flyingdutchdevil
03-28-2017, 01:43 PM
Let's be fair here. Redick was also a liability on defense as a freshman and a sophomore. He was just well-hidden by Duhon, Williams, Jones/Deng, Ewing, and Dockery playing around him. He got more crafty as a junior and senior. So while Kennard is certainly still quite bad on that end, I think he's still well ahead of where Redick was at the same point in their careers.

Of course, Redick's career really took off with huge improvements each of the last two years of his career.

I'd say that Kennard is offensively about where Redick was as a junior, and defensively about where Redick was as a sophomore.

We disagree then. I never thought of Redick as a liability his sophomore year. Yes- he wasn't Dockery or Duhon, but he wasn't taken advantage of every single possession.

Gimme Redick D over Kennard D any day of the week and twice on Sunday. And no, I'm not misremembering Redick's D (This whole post sounds waaaaaaaaaaay too dirty).

CDu
03-28-2017, 01:55 PM
We disagree then. I never thought of Redick as a liability his sophomore year. Yes- he wasn't Dockery or Duhon, but he wasn't taken advantage of every single possession.

Gimme Redick D over Kennard D any day of the week and twice on Sunday. And no, I'm not misremembering Redick's D (This whole post sounds waaaaaaaaaaay too dirty).

Kennard wasn't taken advantage of on every single possession, either.

Also, it is a LOT easier to hide a weak defender when the majority of the other guys on the floor are very good defenders. Redick played with the upperclassman version of Duhon (an elite defender), Ewing (a very good defender), Dockery (a decent-to-good defender), Jones/Deng (very good, bordering on elite defenders), and Williams (elite defender). Kennard certainly didn't have that kind of help. It's a lot harder to hide a bad defender when you don't have many good options around him.

And remember: Redick played when you could hand-check/hold players on the perimeter, which also helped mask his deficiencies. But he was still a bad defender in 2003 and 2004.

If you put Kennard on that 2004 team, nobody complains about Kennard's defense. If you put 2004 Redick on this year's team, and I strongly suspect you'd be calling him a liability on defense.

lotusland
03-28-2017, 03:20 PM
Just read this thread twice. After 2 pages about Luke and JJ's defense I forgot I had already caught up on the Grayson's choice thread:)

tulsuduke
03-28-2017, 08:53 PM
Kennard just has to make sure his offensive contributions outweigh any real or perceived defensive deficiencies over the course of a 48 minute NBA game. Otherwise, I think he's going to be fine in the long run (especially if he develops into a 15 ppg+ scorer).

wavedukefan70s
03-28-2017, 10:01 PM
If steve kerr can find a spot so can luke.

wavedukefan70s
03-28-2017, 10:03 PM
As for grayson whatever he decides i enjoy watching him play.

jacone21
03-28-2017, 10:04 PM
Just read this thread twice. After 2 pages about Luke and JJ's defense I forgot I had already caught up on the Grayson's choice thread:)

I think Grayson's choice is between JJ and Luke... or something.

Dukehky
03-28-2017, 10:06 PM
Kennard just has to make sure his offensive contributions outweigh any real or perceived defensive deficiencies over the course of a 48 minute NBA game. Otherwise, I think he's going to be fine in the long run (especially if he develops into a 15 ppg+ scorer).

I am not 100% sure that Luke's shooting is consistent enough at NBA range. That could just be because he toes the line when he shoots because he's smart, but A LOT of deep 3's came up short.

We'll see at the combine though, because I fully expect him to at least go there.

BigZ
03-28-2017, 10:20 PM
The problem Luke will have is those little eight footers he gets dribbling through the lane. That won't happen in the NBA

Steven43
03-28-2017, 11:21 PM
I agree that Luke isn't really a NBA player but hey, hopefully he fools a few NBA GMs in a few months and becomes a millionaire!! :cool:
'Hopefully he fools a few GMs'.
Dude, really? Luke's better than that. You'll see.

Steven43
03-28-2017, 11:30 PM
Kennard wasn't taken advantage of on every single possession, either.

Also, it is a LOT easier to hide a weak defender when the majority of the other guys on the floor are very good defenders. Redick played with the upperclassman version of Duhon (an elite defender), Ewing (a very good defender), Dockery (a decent-to-good defender), Jones/Deng (very good, bordering on elite defenders), and Williams (elite defender). Kennard certainly didn't have that kind of help. It's a lot harder to hide a bad defender when you don't have many good options around him.

And remember: Redick played when you could hand-check/hold players on the perimeter, which also helped mask his deficiencies. But he was still a bad defender in 2003 and 2004.

If you put Kennard on that 2004 team, nobody complains about Kennard's defense. If you put 2004 Redick on this year's team, and I strongly suspect you'd be calling him a liability on defense.
Exactly. Kennard is every bit the defender Redick was at Duke. Plus, Kennard is a significantly better rebounder, and that is part of playing defense.

kako
03-29-2017, 12:05 AM
Regarding Kennard, I see posts dogging his defense, his mid-range game, etc. Is it lacking now? Sure. But the NBA is all about potential and growing into that potential. GM's don't assume the player now will be the same player later. Redick didn't play D at Duke, but he's developed into a serviceable guy on D, and he can now go and get his own shot in the lane. Look at other examples - Steph Curry wasn't bombing in 3's from midcourt at Davidson. Kobe averaged less than 10 points his first year. There's a famous shot of MJ in the finals against Portland when he hits his 6th (?) 3 of the half, and he turns to the announcers and shrugs his shoulders - he was all-world but never known as a 3-point shooter. The point is that successful NBA players make themselves better. Many thought Redick wouldn't make it, and his first few years with Orlando were really insignificant. But he worked on his game, and here he is, a 12-year vet and a starter. Kennard could do the same, if he works on it. He obviously worked on it from last year to this year. If he doesn't do the same in the Association, he will be gone - just the same as any other player.

uh_no
03-29-2017, 01:01 AM
Regarding Kennard, I see posts dogging his defense, his mid-range game, etc. Is it lacking now? Sure. But the NBA is all about potential and growing into that potential. GM's don't assume the player now will be the same player later. Redick didn't play D at Duke, but he's developed into a serviceable guy on D, and he can now go and get his own shot in the lane. Look at other examples - Steph Curry wasn't bombing in 3's from midcourt at Davidson. Kobe averaged less than 10 points his first year. There's a famous shot of MJ in the finals against Portland when he hits his 6th (?) 3 of the half, and he turns to the announcers and shrugs his shoulders - he was all-world but never known as a 3-point shooter. The point is that successful NBA players make themselves better. Many thought Redick wouldn't make it, and his first few years with Orlando were really insignificant. But he worked on his game, and here he is, a 12-year vet and a starter. Kennard could do the same, if he works on it. He obviously worked on it from last year to this year. If he doesn't do the same in the Association, he will be gone - just the same as any other player.

people are knocking his midrange game? he knocked down jumpers from everywhere all season long.

I think luke could leave for the NBA and do just fine. he's crafty enough without the ball and a sharp shooter. He may not be able to get his own shot as easily, but so it is.

I'm not sure what he would do to improve his NBA stock, actually. He could become a better defender, of course, but he's already one of the most efficient offensive players in the game....

dukelifer
03-29-2017, 07:41 AM
people are knocking his midrange game? he knocked down jumpers from everywhere all season long.

I think luke could leave for the NBA and do just fine. he's crafty enough without the ball and a sharp shooter. He may not be able to get his own shot as easily, but so it is.

I'm not sure what he would do to improve his NBA stock, actually. He could become a better defender, of course, but he's already one of the most efficient offensive players in the game...

I agree that Luke is what he is and his stock will not change much. If the draft is weaker next year - he could move up a few spots- assuming another stellar year. He will get stronger and improve on D. I can see him doing this at Duke- but if he wants to make the jump- it is because he feels he is ready for the next step. The NBA is a different game and a different grind. Sometimes maturity and a support system is more important to overall success than talent alone.

BD80
03-29-2017, 09:38 AM
I guess the hints that this thread is about Grayson and not Luke were just too subtle ...

CDu
03-29-2017, 10:03 AM
I guess the hints that this thread is about Grayson and not Luke were just too subtle ...

I mean, I guess we could just close the thread.

There really isn't much left to discuss about Allen's choice at this point.

Presumably sometime in the not-too-distant future we'll have an answer as to whether he is going, testing the waters, or staying. But I think everyone has thoroughly discussed the potential pros and cons of his decision.

uh_no
03-29-2017, 11:11 AM
I mean, I guess we could just close the thread.

There really isn't much left to discuss about Allen's choice at this point.

Presumably sometime in the not-too-distant future we'll have an answer as to whether he is going, testing the waters, or staying. But I think everyone has thoroughly discussed the potential pros and cons of his decision.

Or we end up in a groundhog day loop, where we keep reliving the same non-committal days over and over, until we come to terms with whatever his decision may be and stop worrying about it.

Indoor66
03-29-2017, 11:31 AM
until we come to terms with whatever his decision may be and stop worrying about it.

On this Board? You have got to be kidding. Here we ruminate and fret until the issue is ready for the trash heap.

uh_no
03-29-2017, 12:35 PM
On this Board? You have got to be kidding. Here we ruminate and fret until the issue is ready for the trash heap.

guess we'll all become really good pianists...

killerleft
03-29-2017, 12:48 PM
The problem Luke will have is those little eight footers he gets dribbling through the lane. That won't happen in the NBA

It MAY not happen. Luke improved a lot this year, and he's going to improve a lot more, I think. He makes some great passes while he's dancing in there. Those NBA guys will have to honor that.

On topic, Grayson would be better served to come back to Duke and get his mojo working again. Lots of folks seem to think college players will improve more quickly once they turn pro and get tutored (ha-ha, Biff!) by the mythical tutorers they have up there in the stratosphere. Duke seems to be on the cutting edge of basketball 'technology', and might offer Grayson a better, safer path to the NBA.

JNort
03-29-2017, 01:30 PM
I still maintain that Lukes play style is very reminiscent of Kevin Martin out of WAY.

Both have quick shots
Good 3 point shooters
Good free throw shooters
Not elite dribblers but are crafty enough to get to the rim
Not who you want to be a top 3 option in the NBA but could lead your bench

JNort
03-29-2017, 03:00 PM
I still maintain that Lukes play style is very reminiscent of Kevin Martin out of WAY.

Both have quick shots
Good 3 point shooters
Good free throw shooters
Not elite dribblers but are crafty enough to get to the rim
Not who you want to be a top 3 option in the NBA but could lead your bench

Too late to fix it but WAY = WCU


However in an attempt to bring back this thread towards Grayson I will say whom he reminds me of as well.

Grayson's ceiling I could see as that of a Manu Ginobli. Solid shooter
More of a slasher than a set up and dribble guy
Makes the tough layups
Eurostep specialist
Gives scoring of the bench
While not big on dunks in traffic can really throw it down when given the lane.

richardjackson199
03-31-2017, 10:11 AM
I'm not sure how close these mock drafts are to reality (and I imagine Coach K can get better info), but based on this latest one maybe Grayson would consider returning to Duke to improve his stock back to first round? A guy can dream..

http://www.nbadraft.net/2017mock_draft

Natty_B
03-31-2017, 10:40 AM
I'm not sure how close these mock drafts are to reality

http://www.nbadraft.net/2017mock_draft

I believe the thinking among many, or a small handful at least, is the closest mock drafts to reality are Chad Ford and the Draft Express dude.

kAzE
03-31-2017, 10:49 AM
I believe the thinking among many, or a small handful at least, is the closest mock drafts to reality are Chad Ford and the Draft Express dude.

Chad Ford? You mean the guy who changes his draft board after the draft to make himself look better (http://deadspin.com/espns-chad-ford-has-been-retroactively-editing-draft-bo-1681631642)?

DraftExpress is the only one I trust . . .

brevity
03-31-2017, 10:56 AM
I believe the thinking among many, or a small handful at least, is the closest mock drafts to reality are Chad Ford and the Draft Express dude.


Chad Ford? You mean the guy who changes his draft board after the draft to make himself look better (http://deadspin.com/espns-chad-ford-has-been-retroactively-editing-draft-bo-1681631642)?

Revising our past to make ourselves look better is something real people do.

NM Duke Fan
03-31-2017, 01:22 PM
Speaking of which, currently Draft Express projects Grayson at pick #41, Giles at 24, Luke at 25:

http://www.draftexpress.com/nba-mock-draft/2017/

niveklaen
03-31-2017, 01:26 PM
Revising our past to make ourselves look better is something real people do.

Sayeth Brian Williams

CDu
03-31-2017, 01:30 PM
Revising our past to make ourselves look better is something real people do.


Sayeth Brian Williams

And Carlos Boozer, Sr.

NM Duke Fan
03-31-2017, 02:05 PM
So if the Draft express projection of #41 for Grayson is about right, does this insipre him to come back to improve his draft stock, ostensibily. Or does it help him to go ahead and take the risk that he will be drafted in the 40's and then be able to stick with a team? Or is it all irrelevant to his decision?

kAzE
03-31-2017, 02:14 PM
So if the Draft express projection of #41 for Grayson is about right, does this insipre him to come back to improve his draft stock, ostensibily. Or does it help him to go ahead and take the risk that he will be drafted in the 40's and then be able to stick with a team? Or is it all irrelevant to his decision?

It's probably irrelevant. I think most people think he's an NBA player. Being drafted in the 2nd round this year vs the first round next year (in what's expected to be a much weaker draft class) only hurts him financially in the short term. The CBA is set up now such that rookies are pretty limited in the amount they can earn. It's all about the 2nd contract. The difference in the amount of money between a guaranteed first round contract and a 2nd rounder is significant only in the short term. Compared to the 2nd contract, it's not that big of a deal.

The earlier you go, the faster you can get to the second contract. This is of course assuming you can stay in the league long enough and play well enough to earn that 2nd contract. There's no doubt in my mind that Grayson will be in the league for the next 5-10 years if he stays healthy. He will get paid sooner or later, so it's just a matter of how much he values 1 more year at Duke.

Natty_B
03-31-2017, 02:49 PM
On this Board? You have got to be kidding. Here we ruminate and fret until the issue is ready for the trash heap.

And since the last day to come back to school isn't until June 12 we have LOTS of ruminating and fretting time ahead of us!

FWIW Morgan at the N&O thinks Grayson is gone:

https://twitter.com/JessikaMorgan/status/846849010660990978

rsvman
03-31-2017, 04:54 PM
I think Grayson's choice is between JJ and Luke... or something.

Oh, so Grayson's choice is kinda like Sophie's choice, maybe?

gam7
03-31-2017, 06:06 PM
Oh, so Grayson's choice is kinda like Sophie's choice, maybe?

Well, I think Grayson's choice is more like a Hobson's Choice.

Duke76
03-31-2017, 07:17 PM
Well, I think Grayson's choice is more like a Hobson's Choice.

if that's the choice then I would come back and make "chicken salad outta ..."

sagegrouse
03-31-2017, 07:38 PM
Well, I think Grayson's choice is more like a Hobson's Choice.

Not exactly. I will defer to the philosophers among us, but "Hobson's Choice" translated colloquially means "take it or leave it." I think Grayson has two real choices.

DukeDevilDeb
03-31-2017, 08:30 PM
Nolan got a 1-year Masters from Fuqua.

But not while he was playing. Amile has been working on a master's. So have others. But not Nolan. I had him in several classes, and he graduated and played in four years.

DukeDevilDeb
03-31-2017, 08:37 PM
I can assure you there are some masters that require very, very, very, VERY little work.

As a 30+year faculty member here at Duke, I'm a little offended by both what you say here and how you say it. There are actually not terribly many master's only programs at Duke. Most Master's degrees (except for the Fuqua MBA) are given in the context of PhD programs. The student finishes course work, passes prelims, submits and has accepted a dissertation proposal, and then gets a master's. Some of them leave at this point, but it was never their intention from the beginning to do this.

That said, there are some stand alone master's programs. Most are academically rigorous. But Grayson is a really, really good student and smart kid. For him to be in a master's program for two semesters would not be difficult. And if he leaves after the year with a master's too, all to the better. Not all of our "great athletes" (think #22) make it into pro sports or stay there. I actually think that, if Grayson stays, he would enjoy and benefit from participation in a Master's Program.

Go Devils!

FadedTackyShirt
04-02-2017, 12:36 PM
As a 30+year faculty member here at Duke, I'm a little offended by both what you say here and how you say it. There are actually not terribly many master's only programs at Duke. Most Master's degrees (except for the Fuqua MBA) are given in the context of PhD programs. The student finishes course work, passes prelims, submits and has accepted a dissertation proposal, and then gets a master's. Some of them leave at this point, but it was never their intention from the beginning to do this.

That said, there are some stand alone master's programs. Most are academically rigorous. But Grayson is a really, really good student and smart kid. For him to be in a master's program for two semesters would not be difficult. And if he leaves after the year with a master's too, all to the better. Not all of our "great athletes" (think #22) make it into pro sports or stay there. I actually think that, if Grayson stays, he would enjoy and benefit from participation in a Master's Program.

Go Devils!

Thanks for a thoughtful post.

What was the grad school process for Amile this year? He unexpectantly returned after graduating. Amile and Grayson are both excellent students (all academic ACC), but neither likely planned on Duke grad school directly after earning undergrad degrees.

How much are Duke and K encouraging/enabling former OADs or early entrants to work toward degree completion?

Jeffrey
04-03-2017, 11:14 AM
But Grayson is a really, really good student and smart kid. For him to be in a master's program for two semesters would not be difficult. And if he leaves after the year with a master's too, all to the better. Not all of our "great athletes" (think #22) make it into pro sports or stay there. I actually think that, if Grayson stays, he would enjoy and benefit from participation in a Master's Program.


Even if a player plays a "full career" in pro sports, how long does that last? There's a lot of life after 40! If the player wants to pursue another career after sports, then the advanced degree would obviously add substantial value. Or, if the player wants to spend the rest of their life living off of their financial assets, then an MBA would add substantial value.

NM Duke Fan
04-03-2017, 04:30 PM
The Master's degree stuff can sure work out well at some schools, for instance Przemek Karnowski is well along towards earning an MBA this basketball season, and it does not hurt to have that to fall back on in Europe later on!

BD80
04-03-2017, 06:05 PM
The Master's degree stuff can sure work out well at some schools, for instance Przemek Karnowski is well along towards earning an MBA this basketball season, and it does not hurt to have that to fall back on in Europe later on!

Or he could put on a white rain coat and rent himself out as a ski slope ...

Jeffrey
04-03-2017, 06:33 PM
Or he could put on a white rain coat and rent himself out as a ski slope ...

Geez, I was hoping that was Tyler Hansbrough's next career. I've already purchased the perfect pair of skis.

brevity
04-03-2017, 06:42 PM
Or he could put on a white rain coat and rent himself out as a ski slope ...

"Karnowski, you provide the mountain, and I'll provide the snow." - Robert Swift

FadedTackyShirt
04-07-2017, 10:19 AM
Any expectation on when Grayson will announce his intentions for next season?

CDu
04-07-2017, 10:22 AM
Any expectation on when Grayson will announce his intentions for next season?

Sometime between today and April 23.

Newton_14
04-07-2017, 10:28 AM
Sometime between today and April 23.

I think it will be next week personally, and I still expect that the announcement will be he is returning...

kAzE
04-07-2017, 10:34 AM
I think it will be next week personally, and I still expect that the announcement will be he is returning...

I feel like you're jinxing it -_-

Newton_14
04-07-2017, 10:37 AM
I feel like you're jinxing it -_-

Fair enough. I will stop saying it until he announces his decision to go or stay:(

dukelion
04-07-2017, 01:27 PM
This seems promising.



Duke still waiting on the Grayson Allen decision. Was told recently that there was a decent chance he would come back for senior year.

— Jeff Goodman (@GoodmanESPN) April 6, 2017

fan345678
04-07-2017, 02:44 PM
I predict Grayson to Kentucky as a graduate transfer.

Fish80
04-07-2017, 02:51 PM
I predict Grayson to Kentucky as a graduate transfer.

A pox on your houses! :eek:

flyingdutchdevil
04-07-2017, 03:23 PM
I predict Grayson to Kentucky as a graduate transfer.

More likely to UK than UCLA. You know what LaVar thinks of white players...

Dr. Rosenrosen
04-07-2017, 03:31 PM
This seems promising.



Duke still waiting on the Grayson Allen decision. Was told recently that there was a decent chance he would come back for senior year.

— Jeff Goodman (@GoodmanESPN) April 6, 2017
Come on back GA and get your number up in the rafters!

Bay Area Duke Fan
04-07-2017, 05:18 PM
Come on back GA and get your number up in the rafters!

Assuming Grayson comes back and has a great 2018 year (POY or Nat Championship). Would the tripping incidents and suspension jeopardize his chances for jersey retirement?

richardjackson199
04-07-2017, 05:27 PM
Assuming Grayson comes back and has a great 2018 year (POY or Nat Championship). Would the tripping incidents and suspension jeopardize his chances for jersey retirement?

If he comes back, has that kind of year, and has no further major incidents I think the jersey goes in the rafters for sure. Remember K decides that sort of thing - and K absolutely loves the passion and fire Grayson brings to Duke. K knows Grayson is a great kid. If he continues to mature and show growth, AND, has that type of year, I think the jersey goes up. And I think it should. Grayson already sparked 1 Natty with his fire. He's been pretty incredible for Duke all things considered IMO. I'd love nothing more than one final year of Grayson Allen having the senior year he deserves.

duke4ever19
04-07-2017, 05:37 PM
Assuming Grayson comes back and has a great 2018 year (POY or Nat Championship). Would the tripping incidents and suspension jeopardize his chances for jersey retirement?

Hmmm interesting . . .

I don't think his past incidents would hamper his ability to get his jersey retired, assuming he has an outstanding individual year in which he gets ACC POY or national POY awards, which I think he needs to make a better case.

I think we might all agree that if he comes back and has another up-and-down year like last season, he won't get his jersey in the rafters. IMO he needs something like an ACC POY, or at least needs to play well enough to be 1st or 2nd all-American and get Duke back to the Final Four to seal the deal. Obviously, leading us to two titles during his four years would probably be more-than-enough.

Just a guess.

lotusland
04-07-2017, 06:11 PM
I feel like you're jinxing it -_-

I would suggest the "I'm not going to jinx it" thread but I haven't been impressed with results there.

mph
04-07-2017, 06:16 PM
I would suggest the "I'm not going to jinx it" thread but I haven't been impressed with results there.

That thread should have been killed 2 years ago. Just one man's opinion.

MartyClark
04-07-2017, 06:26 PM
I wish the best for Grayson. He's one of the most interesting and complicated Duke players that I have witnessed. I like him and, selfishly, hope he comes back for his final year.

Best case scenario in my view. Duke get Duvall to play point guard. Frank Jackson plays both 1 and 2 but Duvall is the primary point guard. Grayson plays 2 and is healthy. The game opens up for Grayson as he can drive, dish, or hit the three because Duvall (I've seen him once) seems to be a good, pass first, point guard.

Go Duke.

sagegrouse
04-07-2017, 06:26 PM
Assuming Grayson comes back and has a great 2018 year (POY or Nat Championship). Would the tripping incidents and suspension jeopardize his chances for jersey retirement?


Hmmm interesting . . .

I don't think his past incidents would hamper his ability to get his jersey retired, assuming he has an outstanding individual year in which he gets ACC POY or national POY awards, which I think he needs to make a better case.

I think we might all agree that if he comes back and has another up-and-down year like last season, he won't get his jersey in the rafters. IMO he needs something like an ACC POY, or at least needs to play well enough to be 1st or 2nd all-American and get Duke back to the Final Four to seal the deal. Obviously, leading us to two titles during his four years would probably be more-than-enough.

Just a guess.

OK, I'll bite. Grayson committed three on-court penalties that were penalized at the time and then sensationalized. He had to defend himself against calumny from the press, the great unwashed mass of pimple-faced message board posters, and others who were ostensibly adults. His suspension was due, IMHO (where the H ran away with the spoon), to his reaction on the bench, not to his actions on the court.

In his favor:

He was second/third team All-American his sophomore year.
He was All Final Four as a freshman and played an instrumental role in Duke's comeback in the national championship game against Wisconsin.
He had game-winning plays in ACC games against Louisville and Virginia as a sophomore.
An outstanding defensive play in the championship game was memorialized in an eponymous Duke award.
He has been Academic All-ACC three years in a row and Academic A-A in 2016 (no announcement I have seen for 2017).

Grayson has work to do to qualify for jersey retirement:

First or second team All-American would put him squarely in the running.
Heroics in a second national championship game, in addition to the previous, would clinch it.

I think Grayson needs to be one of the best players in the country next season to qualify for jersey retirement.

CDu
04-07-2017, 06:28 PM
I wish the best for Grayson. He's one of the most interesting and complicated Duke players that I have witnessed. I like him and, selfishly, hope he comes back for his final year.

Best case scenario in my view. Duke get Duvall to play point guard. Frank Jackson plays both 1 and 2 but Duvall is the primary point guard. Grayson plays 2 and is healthy. The game opens up for Grayson as he can drive, dish, or hit the three because Duvall (I've seen him once) seems to be a good, pass first, point guard.

Go Duke.

His name is Duval, and he is definitely not a pass-first PG. Think Derrick Rose, not Chris Paul.

mattman91
04-07-2017, 06:41 PM
His name is Duval, and he is definitely not a pass-first PG. Think Derrick Rose, not Chris Paul.

Russell Westbrook?

Jeffrey
04-07-2017, 06:55 PM
Assuming Grayson comes back and has a great 2018 year (POY or Nat Championship). Would the tripping incidents and suspension jeopardize his chances for jersey retirement?

Not certain about the tripping incidents, but I'm certain he could stomp on a fallen player.

brevity
04-07-2017, 06:59 PM
Assuming Grayson comes back and has a great 2018 year (POY or Nat Championship). Would the tripping incidents and suspension jeopardize his chances for jersey retirement?


I don't think his past incidents would hamper his ability to get his jersey retired, assuming he has an outstanding individual year in which he gets ACC POY or national POY awards, which I think he needs to make a better case.

I feel like the answer to this question is in the premise. We don't think of Player of the Year awards as having a character component, because that issue rarely comes up. A college basketball player who does that well tends to keep his nose clean. But in this case, awards bodies would absolutely factor in behavior before they gave Grayson anything. If he's good enough ("good" taking on more than one meaning) to be named Player of the Year, then the tripping incidents become much less of an issue, and you can look at retiring his jersey much like you would any other outstanding Duke player set to graduate.

I will point out that Josh Jackson of Kansas, who has an unresolved off-court issue, was still named 2nd Team All-American by The Sporting News and 3rd Team All-American by the AP and NABC. He is also a finalist for the Wooden Award, which specifies character among its criteria (http://www.woodenaward.com/john_r_wooden_award_presented_by_wendy_s_announces _2016_17_men_s_national_ballot).

If Grayson returns and has a senior season that resembles his sophomore season, you could see him making various shortlists (even 1st Team All-American) but maybe falling just short of being named the POY, because a lot of people would have to be convinced that he was that much better than any other less controversial option. Wikipedia has a list of the seven POY awards (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_U.S._men%27s_college_basketball_national_p layer_of_the_year_awards) given out over the years, and there is a lot of groupthink. In the past 25 years, there were only two seasons where no single player won at least 4 of those 7 awards. Next year, the first awards body could decide that a returning All-American (Dillon Brooks, Johnathan Motley, Nigel Williams-Goss, Ethan Happ, etc.) is more deserving, and that sets the tone for everyone else.

Jeffrey
04-07-2017, 07:01 PM
His suspension was due, IMHO (where the H ran away with the spoon), to his reaction on the bench, not to his actions on the court.


What do you think his reaction on the bench was about? It appears you do not think it was anger about his mistake, after promising no reoccurrence.

sagegrouse
04-07-2017, 07:14 PM
What do you think his reaction on the bench was about? It appears you do not think it was anger about his mistake, after promising no reoccurrence.

Let me say it differently, Jeffrey. I believe that, if Grayson, after his trip against Elon, had gone meekly to the bench with no reaction, he would not have been suspended by Duke, and he would have remained a team captain. It was the total loss of composure by a team captain that most bothered Coach K (West Point and U.S. Army).

duke4ever19
04-07-2017, 07:19 PM
Russell Westbrook?

Funny, but true.

Westbrook is about to average a triple-double per game and yet he is instinctively a shot hunter.

By the way, I've been watching OKC's games on the stretch run to the playoffs and man, I haven't seen anyone play that fiercely on a game-to-game basis since MJ himself. Westbrook is clutch too.

Now, back to our scheduled Grayson Allen handwringing party. :)

BD80
04-07-2017, 07:40 PM
That thread should have been killed 2 years ago. Just one man's opinion.

Killing a thread intended to ward off jinxes. ...

Just doesn't seem wise to me

FadedTackyShirt
04-07-2017, 07:48 PM
I feel like the answer to this question is in the premise. We don't think of Player of the Year awards as having a character component, because that issue rarely comes up. A college basketball player who does that well tends to keep his nose clean. But in this case, awards bodies would absolutely factor in behavior before they gave Grayson anything. If he's good enough ("good" taking on more than one meaning) to be named Player of the Year, then the tripping incidents become much less of an issue, and you can look at retiring his jersey much like you would any other outstanding Duke player set to graduate...

...If Grayson returns and has a senior season that resembles his sophomore season, you could see him making various shortlists (even 1st Team All-American) but maybe falling just short of being named the POY, because a lot of people would have to be convinced that he was that much better than any other less controversial option. Wikipedia has a list of the seven POY awards (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_U.S._men%27s_college_basketball_national_p layer_of_the_year_awards) given out over the years, and there is a lot of groupthink. In the past 25 years, there were only two seasons where no single player won at least 4 of those 7 awards. Next year, the first awards body could decide that a returning All-American (Dillon Brooks, Johnathan Motley, Nigel Williams-Goss, Ethan Happ, etc.) is more deserving, and that sets the tone for everyone else.

Agree to all of the above. Grayson will be under a microscope and because of that will need a truly dominant season (Laettner 1992, Brand 1999) to win NPOY. As such, jersey retirement would be more than merited and richly deserved.

Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15
04-07-2017, 08:02 PM
What do you think his reaction on the bench was about? It appears you do not think it was anger about his mistake, after promising no reoccurrence.

There was an article posted recently about someone Grayson befriended who passed away earlier that week that might explain why his emotions were so close to the surface. Don't have the link handy, but a quick search would find it I am sure.

gam7
04-07-2017, 08:27 PM
There was an article posted recently about someone Grayson befriended who passed away earlier that week that might explain why his emotions were so close to the surface. Don't have the link handy, but a quick search would find it I am sure.

I would think that would be the case too, but Grayson was specifically asked this question at an NCAA tournament press conference and said that emotions related to her passing away weren't a factor at all. I suppose it could've been a background thing without Grayson realizing it, but he clearly didn't think so.

westwall
04-07-2017, 08:36 PM
There was an article posted recently about someone Grayson befriended who passed away earlier that week that might explain why his emotions were so close to the surface. Don't have the link handy, but a quick search would find it I am sure.

Don't have the link either but it was an article by a Jacksonville FL newsman about a young woman (perhaps a Duke student) from Jacksonville in Duke hospital whom Grayson visited and whom Grayson befriended. Good article showing a very decent side of Grayson. Probably appeared somewhere here in late Feb /early March.

westwall
04-07-2017, 09:00 PM
Don't have the link either but it was an article by a Jacksonville FL newsman about a young woman (perhaps a Duke student) from Jacksonville in Duke hospital whom Grayson visited and whom Grayson befriended. Good article showing a very decent side of Grayson. Probably appeared somewhere here in late Feb /early March.

Here is the link, a good read: http://jacksonville.com/metro/columnists/mark-woods/2017-03-06/mark-woods-when-grayson-met-savannah-grayson-allen-moment

Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15
04-07-2017, 11:04 PM
I would think that would be the case too, but Grayson was specifically asked this question at an NCAA tournament press conference and said that emotions related to her passing away weren't a factor at all. I suppose it could've been a background thing without Grayson realizing it, but he clearly didn't think so.

So, Grayson may have elected not to draw more attention to this young woman's family, didn't want to draw attention to himself by making what could be seen as an excuse, or simply was telling the truth.

I have to say, out of context, his sideline outburst was far more disturbing than any of his on-court miscues. I thought this explanation made lots of sense.

scottdude8
04-10-2017, 03:10 PM
For what it's worth, DraftExpress's latest mock draft (http://www.draftexpress.com/nba-mock-draft/2017/), which was posted today, doesn't have Grayson being drafted at all. Could be a sign pointing towards him returning, could be nothing. Make of it what you will.

NBAdraft.net, the other site I look at for draft related news, still has Grayson going early in the second round, although it hasn't been updated in five days.

Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15
04-10-2017, 03:26 PM
For what it's worth, DraftExpress's latest mock draft (http://www.draftexpress.com/nba-mock-draft/2017/), which was posted today, doesn't have Grayson being drafted at all. Could be a sign pointing towards him returning, could be nothing. Make of it what you will.

NBAdraft.net, the other site I look at for draft related news, still has Grayson going early in the second round, although it hasn't been updated in five days.

I suspect DBR will have confirmation before DraftExpress. But I could be wrong.

Atlanta Duke
04-10-2017, 03:31 PM
Today column in The Ringer on NBA draft prospects (including assessments of Jayson Tatum & Luke Kennard) says Grayson is second round worthy, if he does not stay another season, with these observations

Allen is unlikable. He goes to Duke. He trips people. He looks like Ted Cruz. Allen also hustles his a** off, has a strong frame, and has shown a knack for knocking down high-degree-of-difficulty shots. Some of these things matter more in the NBA than others

https://theringer.com/ringer-nba-draft-lottery-big-board-version-5-0-2c36dc7c02cf

scottdude8
04-10-2017, 03:38 PM
I suspect DBR will have confirmation before DraftExpress. But I could be wrong.

I wholeheartedly agree... I imagine this is just DraftExpress reading the tea leaves and not them having some inside information. But this, I think, continues the recent trend of reporting that gives Grayson a better than even shot at returning.

Ultrarunner
04-10-2017, 03:46 PM
Killing a thread intended to ward off jinxes. ...

Just doesn't seem wise to me

The first year for that thread was 2015. Did okay then.

Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15
04-10-2017, 05:19 PM
Today column in The Ringer on NBA draft prospects (including assessments of Jayson Tatum & Luke Kennard) says Grayson is second round worthy, if he does not stay another season, with these observations

Allen is unlikable. He goes to Duke. He trips people. He looks like Ted Cruz. Allen also hustles his a** off, has a strong frame, and has shown a knack for knocking down high-degree-of-difficulty shots. Some of these things matter more in the NBA than others

https://theringer.com/ringer-nba-draft-lottery-big-board-version-5-0-2c36dc7c02cf

This has been my take on it all along. When Allen goes to the NBA, the fans won't care one rip about the uniform he used to have or the reputation he used to have. If he can ball, he will be embraced. The NBA is a meritocracy.

arnie
04-10-2017, 05:42 PM
This has been my take on it all along. When Allen goes to the NBA, the fans won't care one rip about the uniform he used to have or the reputation he used to have. If he can ball, he will be embraced. The NBA is a meritocracy.

And neither Jay Williams nor ex-thug VPI coach will be announcing games or drawing attention to him.

sagegrouse
04-10-2017, 05:46 PM
This has been my take on it all along. When Allen goes to the NBA, the fans won't care one rip about the uniform he used to have or the reputation he used to have. If he can ball, he will be embraced. The NBA is a meritocracy.

Actually, there is a reasonable chance the fans will care about the uniform enough to buy a whole bunch of jerseys. Tough as nails and a little bit nasty = NBA.

BD80
04-10-2017, 05:55 PM
The big issue with Grayson is his lift. He was barely able to dunk at the end of the year, due to injuries. He could move way up in the draft if he demonstrates that his explosiveness is back.

duke4ever19
04-10-2017, 08:38 PM
The big issue with Grayson is his lift. He was barely able to dunk at the end of the year, due to injuries. He could move way up in the draft if he demonstrates that his explosiveness is back.

I wish I had the same problem. :rolleyes:

Those of you thinking Allen goes in the second round are definitely on to something. I spent a few minutes scanning the myriad of mock drafts out there and Allen has dropped into the second round on a lot of them and some have him not drafted at all, which I take to mean they think he's coming back.

I don't know if next year's draft is supposed to be a little more friendly to a player like Allen, but I assume he's got lots of help weighing all these scenarios. Corey Maggette once told the story of his decision to enter the draft and he mentioned that K had compiled a two packets, one with the pros of going to the NBA and one with the cons.

Edouble
04-10-2017, 08:53 PM
I wish I had the same problem. :rolleyes:

Those of you thinking Allen goes in the second round are definitely on to something. I spent a few minutes scanning the myriad of mock drafts out there and Allen has dropped into the second round on a lot of them and some have him not drafted at all, which I take to mean they think he's coming back.

I don't know if next year's draft is supposed to be a little more friendly to a player like Allen, but I assume he's got lots of help weighing all these scenarios. Corey Maggette once told the story of his decision to enter the draft and he mentioned that K had compiled a two packets, one with the pros of going to the NBA and one with the cons.

Did he even open the second packet?

scottdude8
04-13-2017, 10:07 AM
It's been a long time with zero news on the Grayson front (or long relative to the barrage of news and rumors we typically get during NBA declaration season, haha). Does anyone have any inkling whether no news is good news or bad news?

curtis325
04-13-2017, 10:45 AM
It's been a long time with zero news on the Grayson front (or long relative to the barrage of news and rumors we typically get during NBA declaration season, haha). Does anyone have any inkling whether no news is good news or bad news?

Yes, no news is good news or bad news. Or possibly meh news.

mgtr
04-13-2017, 10:53 AM
Yes, no news is good news

Wasn't that the line fellow had when they couldn't find a rope to hang him?

Troublemaker
04-13-2017, 10:53 AM
It's been a long time with zero news on the Grayson front (or long relative to the barrage of news and rumors we typically get during NBA declaration season, haha). Does anyone have any inkling whether no news is good news or bad news?

It just means both options are still on the table. So, whether it's good news or bad news depends on your previous expectation level of whether Grayson would leave or not. If you thought he would for sure leave, then it's good news that it's taking this long and that staying is a consideration. Etc.

uh_no
04-13-2017, 11:01 AM
Yes, no news is good news or bad news. Or possibly meh news.

man....if DBR collective emotions were a financial instrument, I'd have a massive straddle bet going right now.

sagegrouse
04-13-2017, 11:02 AM
It just means both options are still on the table. So, whether it's good news or bad news depends on your previous expectation level of whether Grayson would leave or not. If you thought he would for sure leave, then it's good news that it's taking this long and that staying is a consideration. Etc.

Is this correct? Players to be eligible for the draft must declare by April 24. Players have until May 25 (after the May 11-15 combine) to withdraw?

Since Grayson has neither used up his eligibility nor graduated, I presume these deadlines apply to him.

Indoor66
04-13-2017, 11:03 AM
man...if DBR collective emotions were a financial instrument, I'd have a massive straddle bet going right now.

Don't start talking dirty! 🤓

flyingdutchdevil
04-13-2017, 11:13 AM
It just means both options are still on the table. So, whether it's good news or bad news depends on your previous expectation level of whether Grayson would leave or not. If you thought he would for sure leave, then it's good news that it's taking this long and that staying is a consideration. Etc.

To me, it signals that Grayson wants to go pro, but his poor draft position is really making him reconsider. And I can't blame the kid; he completed half his plan of graduating and winning another natty for Duke. He didn't expect the media backlash and playing through injuries that essentially ruined his draft position.

I wouldn't be surprised by either of Grayson's choices. I will fully understand either (in fairness, I haven't been surprised by any decision thus far. They all make too much sense to me. I guess Bolden coming back was the lone semi-surprise).

sagegrouse
04-13-2017, 11:21 AM
Those dates are correct, but I never wrote anything about dates.

Despite him not running up against any deadlines yet, will Grayson's decision come later than most players? Yes.

Means nothing. The lazy man's way to post is just to "reply" to some random message.

Troublemaker
04-13-2017, 11:24 AM
Means nothing. The lazy man's way to post is just to "reply" to some random message.

Yeah, my bad, too. I could've comprehended better. You were asking about the dates, not about whether my post was accurate.

FadedTackyShirt
04-13-2017, 03:20 PM
Is this correct? Players to be eligible for the draft must declare by April 24. Players have until May 25 (after the May 11-15 combine) to withdraw?

Presumably Grayson has already received a summary of his 2017 draft prospects through K's NBA connections (similar to feedback given to Luke). May be waiting to see who declares in the next week before finalizing his decision. Not a whole lot of other unknowns left at this point.

hallcity
04-13-2017, 03:52 PM
For what it's worth, which is probably nothing, Mark Armstrong, sports director at WTVD, tweeted yesterday that Grayson is coming back to Duke but five minutes later took down that tweet and sent out another tweet saying "Whoops."

Olympic Fan
04-13-2017, 04:12 PM
We may have to sweat this one out for a few more days -- maybe until April 24.

I think we'll know by then -- my understanding is that if Grayson declares, he's gone. He's not likely to "test the waters" (which would delay things until the end of May).

But he's obviously wrestling with his choice. I think flyingdutchdevil nailed it -- I think Grayson wants to go pro, but the feedback he's getting from the NCA is not positive.

Hope he comes back, enjoys a year of paid-for grad school (since he is a serious student), and has a healthy year on the court to remind everybody why he was a preseason national player of the year.

tbyers11
04-13-2017, 07:19 PM
For what it's worth, which is probably nothing, Mark Armstrong, sports director at WTVD, tweeted yesterday that Grayson is coming back to Duke but five minutes later took down that tweet and sent out another tweet saying "Whoops."

He was most likely taken in by the fake Jeff Goodman twitter (https://twitter.com/GooodmanESPN) account that reappeared yesterday. An extra "O" is the difference from the real twitter account (https://twitter.com/GoodmanESPN).

Fake news about Grayson was one of the many tweets.

DukeWarhead
04-13-2017, 07:37 PM
At this point, I'll be surprised if Grayson leaves. A number of mock drafts don't even have him listed. It would seem that the NBA is not calling right now. Of course, a team or two might be interested and could find a way to make that known. It's a tough decision, but I thought we would have heard by now, either way. Maybe its all just setting up for a big disappointment for me.

BigZ
04-13-2017, 07:43 PM
If a mock draft doesn't have Grayson in it most likely they believe he is returning not that he would go undrafted if he declares

subzero02
04-13-2017, 08:03 PM
To me, it signals that Grayson wants to go pro, but his poor draft position is really making him reconsider. And I can't blame the kid; he completed half his plan of graduating and winning another natty for Duke. He didn't expect the media backlash and playing through injuries that essentially ruined his draft position.

I wouldn't be surprised by either of Grayson's choices. I will fully understand either (in fairness, I haven't been surprised by any decision thus far. They all make too much sense to me. I guess Bolden coming back was the lone semi-surprise).

He probably also has some lingering ankle issues. If his draft stock is to improve, he probably needs to have some good private workouts. Having one or two bad wheels could make him hesitant to workout for teams.

Indoor66
04-14-2017, 07:52 AM
He probably also has some lingering ankle issues. If his draft stock is to improve, he probably needs to have some good private workouts. Having one or two bad wheels could make him hesitant to workout for teams.

Wow. Rumor much?

Newton_14
04-14-2017, 08:28 AM
I don't think the delay tells us anything actually, other than perhaps he is struggling/torn on what he wants to do. I wouldn't try to read anything else into it besides that.

I agree with subzero too that if the ankle's are not back to 100% yet they would have a huge impact on him in the workouts for teams. I still maintain he was a shell of his normal self after the bad ankle turn in the Clemson game. He was never the same after that even though he was able to put up a good showing in a few of the games after that.

MCFinARL
04-14-2017, 08:50 AM
He was most likely taken in by the fake Jeff Goodman twitter (https://twitter.com/GooodmanESPN) account that reappeared yesterday. An extra "O" is the difference from the real twitter account (https://twitter.com/GoodmanESPN).

Fake news about Grayson was one of the many tweets.

Wow--that account is a font of truly terrible "information"--including recent tweets that Marques Bolden has changed his mind and will leave Duke (unlikely to be true given he officially announced he would be staying) and that Justin Jackson will return to UNC--tweeted just before Jackson announced for the draft. I'm curious what possesses someone to set up an account like this--whether it is just for the "fun" of spreading false information or it's a concerted effort to malign Jeff Goodman by having "him" tweet a lot of incorrect info.

MrPoon
04-14-2017, 09:11 AM
I don't think the delay tells us anything actually, other than perhaps he is struggling/torn on what he wants to do. I wouldn't try to read anything else into it besides that.

I agree with subzero too that if the ankle's are not back to 100% yet they would have a huge impact on him in the workouts for teams. I still maintain he was a shell of his normal self after the bad ankle turn in the Clemson game. He was never the same after that even though he was able to put up a good showing in a few of the games after that.

This to me is what is going on. His status and opinion by NBA teams isn't changing the last two plus weeks, but his health may be. Too me the delay in announcement shows how banged up he was playing. I think that plan was to go and the injuries (I don't think the Association cares about the tripping, at all) characterized his game in a less appealing light and made him harder to grade. His game is built on good shooting and surprising athleticisim. Injuries impacted both. And the may still be impacting his decision and his ability to perform well at combines.

scottdude8
04-14-2017, 09:51 AM
FWIW, NBADraft.net has joined DraftExpress.com in removing Grayson entirely from their 2017 mock drafts. Both sites have Grayson as a late first rounder in their 2018 mock drafts.

As I mentioned previously, I'm not saying that either site has inside info that any of the Duke insiders on this board have... that's extremely unlikely. I imagine that this is an informed "reading of the tea leaves" from these sites. And if their mock drafts are at all indicative of NBA opinion (which these sites are supposed to be, whether they are or not is obviously a huge matter of opinion), this could be a signal to Grayson that coming back can get him back into the first round.

Take it for what you will. I'm choosing to think this is a positive indication Grayson is returning, because the waiting is driving me crazy and with two guys testing the waters from my other team (Michigan) this process seems like it's never going to end, so I could use some good news, haha.

sagegrouse
04-14-2017, 11:06 AM
CBS Sports is updating its preseason top 25 on a daily basis, it seems, with each departure or arrival. duke is no. seven at the moment. Here's the write-up by Gary Parrish:


Notable players definitely gone: Luke Kennard, Jayson Tatum, Harry Giles, Amile Jefferson, Matt Jones, Chase Jeter
Notable players also expected to leave: None
Notable players expected to return: Grayson Allen, Frank Jackson, Marques Bolden, Jack White, Antonio Vrankovic
Notable newcomers: Wendell Carter, Gary Trent Jr, Alex O'Connell

The "expected to return" is qualified by the next para.:


Why the Blue Devils are here: The Blue Devils still need to know what Grayson Allen is going to do -- and what five-star prospects Trevon Duval and Kevin Knox are going to do. So there's a scenario where Duke is super-loaded again. But there are still a lot of moving parts. Stay tuned.

MCFinARL
04-14-2017, 11:27 AM
CBS Sports is updating its preseason top 25 on a daily basis, it seems, with each departure or arrival. duke is no. seven at the moment. Here's the write-up by Gary Parrish:



The "expected to return" is qualified by the next para.:

Not to get the thread off track, but it is interesting that Gary Parrish includes Jack White, but not Javin DeLaurier, as a "notable player expected to return." I could see including both or neither, depending on one's definition of "notable," and maybe even including Javin and not Jack, although that might be less defensible. But including Jack and not Javin seems like an odd choice.

El_Diablo
04-14-2017, 11:33 AM
Not to get the thread off track, but it is interesting that Gary Parrish includes Jack White, but not Javin DeLaurier, as a "notable player expected to return." I could see including both or neither, depending on one's definition of "notable," and maybe even including Javin and not Jack, although that might be less defensible. But including Jack and not Javin seems like an odd choice.

He has a lot of ground to cover in these types of articles, so it's most likely just an oversight/omission, as opposed to a considered determination that White is more notable than DeLaurier. I would not read anything into it.

ChillinDuke
04-14-2017, 11:38 AM
He has a lot of ground to cover in these types of articles, so it's most likely just an oversight/omission, as opposed to a considered determination that White is more notable than DeLaurier. I would not read anything into it.

Yeah, agreed, don't read anything into it. Parrish also lists a lot of random gobbledygook due to the wide breadth of information he's trying to post. For example, Andrew Platek is listed as a "notable newcomer" for UNC. A 3-star, not Top-100 (per RSCI) recruit does not seem overly "notable" to me.

Although, I guess one could argue anyone that plays is notable - and lord knows, Ol' Roy 'll prolly play 'im. Sink or swim, Andrew!

- Chillin

sagegrouse
04-14-2017, 11:39 AM
Not to get the thread off track, but it is interesting that Gary Parrish includes Jack White, but not Javin DeLaurier, as a "notable player expected to return." I could see including both or neither, depending on one's definition of "notable," and maybe even including Javin and not Jack, although that might be less defensible. But including Jack and not Javin seems like an odd choice.

He forgot how to spell "DeLaurier" and was too lazy to look it up. No problem with "Jack White."

scottdude8
04-14-2017, 11:58 AM
He forgot how to spell "DeLaurier" and was too lazy to look it up. No problem with "Jack White."

One of many reasons I hope to see Jack take a huge step and be a contributor to this team at some point in his Duke career, possibly as soon as next season, is so that we can begin the deluge of White Stripes references on the board and hopefully chants in Cameron. Every time he scores the Crazies do the Seven Nation Army chant, perhaps? Even though that is super overdone (and as a Detroiter it makes me mad that a lot of other cities have coopted that very Detroit band as one of their own, haha).

Saratoga2
04-15-2017, 10:27 AM
CBS Sports is updating its preseason top 25 on a daily basis, it seems, with each departure or arrival. duke is no. seven at the moment. Here's the write-up by Gary Parrish:



The "expected to return" is qualified by the next para.:

If the choice was easy for Grayson, he would have already made it! Draft projections are not that solid for him but perhaps the gauntlet he was put through (in part due to his proclivity to trip) are probably still weighing on his mind. Hope he returns for his sake and for Duke's.

rsvman
04-15-2017, 11:17 AM
For my own sanity, and in my mind only, I have decided that both Grayson and Frank are going to leave. That way, if either or both come back, it will be a pleasant surprise, like an unexpected birthday present. And if either or both do not return, I've already made peace with that.
That's my approach, and I'm sticking to it.

MarkD83
04-15-2017, 11:39 AM
I've gone one step further and am convinced coach k is retiring (someday).

Saratoga2
04-15-2017, 12:44 PM
Interesting draft express analysis of Grayson's weaknesses from the NBA perspective.


http://www.draftexpress.com/profile/Grayson-Allen-71570/

duke4ever19
04-15-2017, 12:45 PM
For my own sanity, and in my mind only, I have decided that both Grayson and Frank are going to leave. That way, if either or both come back, it will be a pleasant surprise, like an unexpected birthday present. And if either or both do not return, I've already made peace with that.
That's my approach, and I'm sticking to it.

Weird coincidence, but this scenario just went down with my sister suspecting she might be getting a surprise birthday party.

She told me she suspected her husband might be throwing her a surprise birthday party and said, "I'll just assume he's not giving me a surprise party, that way I won't be disappointed and if he is throwing me a party, I'll be happy/surprised."

As for me, I've never been able to "flip a switch" like that or alter my hopes when I know I'm only doing it to avoid feeling bummed out or let down. I just feel how I feel. It's like the rational side of myself can do all the rationalizing it wants, but when the news comes down about Grayson and Frank, I'll just end up feeling whatever it was I was originally going to feel. Perhaps it's a matter of willing your emotions in a certain direction. I have bipolar disorder, and perhaps that hinders my ability to do such things.

BD80
04-15-2017, 12:49 PM
... She told me she suspected her husband might be throwing her a surprise birthday party and said, "I'll just assume he's not giving me a surprise party, that way I won't be disappointed and if he is throwing me a party, I'll be happy/surprised." ...

Welllll?

We're waiting!

BD80
04-15-2017, 01:24 PM
Interesting draft express analysis of Grayson's weaknesses from the NBA perspective.


http://www.draftexpress.com/profile/Grayson-Allen-71570/

Not wrong, but much of the footage used was taken when Grayson was hobbled with a "lower body injury."

It would be amazing for him to come back to Duke with the intention of becoming known as a "lock down defender."

fuse
04-15-2017, 03:05 PM
While I would certainly enjoy if Grayson came back, it would be a bold and courageous move on his part. It also impacts the rest of the team based on the expected media scrutiny.

SoCalDukeFan
04-15-2017, 04:08 PM
If the choice was easy for Grayson, he would have already made it! Draft projections are not that solid for him but perhaps the gauntlet he was put through (in part due to his proclivity to trip) are probably still weighing on his mind. Hope he returns for his sake and for Duke's.

that Grayson has not made up his mind?

SoCal

Saratoga2
04-15-2017, 06:01 PM
that Grayson has not made up his mind?

SoCal

Good point, though if he had, why delay an announcement?

luvdahops
04-15-2017, 07:41 PM
Not wrong, but much of the footage used was taken when Grayson was hobbled with a "lower body injury."

It would be amazing for him to come back to Duke with the intention of becoming known as a "lock down defender."

I think those clips were actually from the 2016 season, when Grayson was generally healthy

Richard Berg
04-16-2017, 03:54 PM
Grayson should look to Chris Duhon's career for inspiration. As a freshman, he was paired with some all-time studs and helped win a natty in a supporting role. When they left early for the NBA, he became our go-to guard, but struggled through a difficult junior year. As a senior, he was able to put everything behind him, posting career-best numbers and efficiency and leading Duke to a memorable Final Four appearance.

He never became a stud at the next level, but he did stick around the league for 10 years, was in the starting lineup more than half the time, and made $33M + endorsements.

Bay Area Duke Fan
04-16-2017, 04:13 PM
Grayson should look to Chris Duhon's career for inspiration. As a freshman, he was paired with some all-time studs and helped win a natty in a supporting role. When they left early for the NBA, he became our go-to guard, but struggled through a difficult junior year. As a senior, he was able to put everything behind him, posting career-best numbers and efficiency and leading Duke to a memorable Final Four appearance.

He never became a stud at the next level, but he did stick around the league for 10 years, was in the starting lineup more than half the time, and made $33M + endorsements.

Didn't Duhon recently lose his position as an assistant coach at Marshall because of another DUI-related arrest?

rsvman
04-16-2017, 04:56 PM
Didn't Duhon recently lose his position as an assistant coach at Marshall because of another DUI-related arrest?

Following in somebody's footsteps doesn't have to be that precise.

Richard Berg
04-17-2017, 09:51 AM
On-the-court career, to be clear. Nobody will ever break Duhon's beer pong record, that I'm certain.

SoCalDukeFan
04-17-2017, 10:02 AM
Good point, though if he had, why delay an announcement?

He sees no reason to announce he is returning and some downside as ESPN etc. would make a big deal of it etc.

SoCal

MCFinARL
04-17-2017, 10:48 AM
He sees no reason to announce he is returning and some downside as ESPN etc. would make a big deal of it etc.

SoCal

Good point--if you are already in school and you decide to stay in school, there isn't really any reason to announce anything--your status hasn't changed. Bolden only announced he was staying because of all of the reports that he was leaving. Grayson can just go about his business.

flyingdutchdevil
04-17-2017, 11:08 AM
Good point--if you are already in school and you decide to stay in school, there isn't really any reason to announce anything--your status hasn't changed. Bolden only announced he was staying because of all of the reports that he was leaving. Grayson can just go about his business.

Can he really, though? At least in college, Grayson will never be allowed to go about his business.

It's sad and unfortunate. But it is true.

wk2109
04-17-2017, 11:28 AM
Good point--if you are already in school and you decide to stay in school, there isn't really any reason to announce anything--your status hasn't changed. Bolden only announced he was staying because of all of the reports that he was leaving. Grayson can just go about his business.

I'd counter by pointing out that Duke has made announcements about a player returning to school when there was some level of doubt (e.g., Mason Plumlee: http://www.goduke.com/ViewArticle.dbml?DB_OEM_ID=4200&ATCLID=205411494).

In fact, Duke made an announcement just last year about Grayson's return: http://www.goduke.com/mediaPortal/player.dbml?id=5257304&db_oem_id=4200.

NM Duke Fan
04-17-2017, 12:43 PM
I'd counter by pointing out that Duke has made announcements about a player returning to school when there was some level of doubt (e.g., Mason Plumlee: http://www.goduke.com/ViewArticle.dbml?DB_OEM_ID=4200&ATCLID=205411494).

In fact, Duke made an announcement just last year about Grayson's return: http://www.goduke.com/mediaPortal/player.dbml?id=5257304&db_oem_id=4200.

Perhaps this thread should be titled Grayson's Choices? After all, there is also the option of playing overseas for a year or two, where he could continue to get back to his full explosiveness and further develop his game -- and "go about his business." There are a few players over the years who went this route, and then came into the NBA and did well. Not saying this is what I expect, but it is something that has not been mentioned too much. Other players projected in the second round of the NBA draft found this their best overall option. I hope he comes back to Duke and is a strong player of the year candidate, moving way up in a rather weaker draft class. We will know within a week or so at the latest.

howardlander
04-17-2017, 01:15 PM
Perhaps this thread should be titled Grayson's Choices? After all, there is also the option of playing overseas for a year or two, where he could continue to get back to his full explosiveness and further develop his game -- and "go about his business."

I think this is what I would do if I were him: declare for the draft and if someone takes him great, if not he can take his chances overseas. Assuming that he can get a job overseas, I'm not sure why he should come back for another year of abuse when he already has his degree. Is there some way for Coach K to help him understand his overseas options?

Howard

Olympic Fan
04-17-2017, 01:17 PM
I'd counter by pointing out that Duke has made announcements about a player returning to school when there was some level of doubt (e.g., Mason Plumlee: http://www.goduke.com/ViewArticle.dbml?DB_OEM_ID=4200&ATCLID=205411494).

In fact, Duke made an announcement just last year about Grayson's return: http://www.goduke.com/mediaPortal/player.dbml?id=5257304&db_oem_id=4200.

Duke also made an announcement that Grayson was returning after his freshman year when rumors surfaced that he was considering the draft.

Grayson later said he approved the release just to silence the rumors, but that he never even contemplated going pro at that time.

I think it's safe to say that when he decided -- which he obviously hasn't -- we'll be told pretty quickly.

BigZ
04-17-2017, 01:26 PM
Yeah Duke announced the last two years that Grayson was coming back. So they will announce this time too

Troublemaker
04-17-2017, 01:30 PM
Perhaps this thread should be titled Grayson's Choices? After all, there is also the option of playing overseas for a year or two, where he could continue to get back to his full explosiveness and further develop his game -- and "go about his business." There are a few players over the years who went this route, and then came into the NBA and did well. Not saying this is what I expect, but it is something that has not been mentioned too much. Other players projected in the second round of the NBA draft found this their best overall option. I hope he comes back to Duke and is a strong player of the year candidate, moving way up in a rather weaker draft class. We will know within a week or so at the latest.


I think this is what I would do if I were him: declare for the draft and if someone takes him great, if not he can take his chances overseas. Assuming that he can get a job overseas, I'm not sure why he should come back for another year of abuse when he already has his degree. Is there some way for Coach K to help him understand his overseas options?

Howard

If I'm not going to the NBA, I'm staying at Duke. You guys are way overrating how awful Grayson's experience was at Duke because we, as fans, only "access" him through the bad stuff -- getting booed when touching the ball in opposing arenas, the ridiculous media coverage, etc.

We get a snapshot into like 2% of Grayson's life. But the other 98% is really good stuff. Duke is a safe space for him. He gets to go to class, hang out with friends, and I'm guessing he's pretty popular with the ladies on campus. The idea that Grayson would be happier living in another country far away from family and friends than spending a graduate year at Duke seems farfetched to me.

sagegrouse
04-17-2017, 01:33 PM
Yeah Duke announced the last two years that Grayson was coming back. So they will announce this time too

I hope so! I hope so!

NM Duke Fan
04-17-2017, 01:38 PM
If I'm not going to the NBA, I'm staying at Duke. You guys are way overrating how awful Grayson's experience was at Duke because we, as fans, only "access" him through the bad stuff -- getting booed when touching the ball in opposing arenas, the ridiculous media coverage, etc.

We get a snapshot into like 2% of Grayson's life. But the other 98% is really good stuff. Duke is a safe space for him. He gets to go to class, hang out with friends, and I'm guessing he's pretty popular with the ladies on campus. The idea that Grayson would be happier living in another country far away from family and friends than spending a graduate year at Duke seems farfetched to me.

In my post today I said nothing about how "awful" Grayson's experience was at Duke, far from it. I was just pointing out that this third option has not been talked about much, and there are players making good money overseas, in a successful money-making transition period before playing in the NBA. And yes, I am sure he has plenty of positives to his Duke experience. I have certainly seen comments from ladies who seem to like Grayson! We just don't know if he has given any thought to this third option or not. In other words it may not be a fork in the road, but a trident!

sagegrouse
04-17-2017, 01:41 PM
In my post today I said nothing about how "awful" Grayson's experience was at Duke, far from it. I was just pointing out that this third option has not been talked about much, and there are players making good money overseas, in a successful money-making transition period before playing in the NBA. And yes, I am sure he has plenty of positives to his Duke experience. I have certainly seen comments from ladies who seem to like Grayson! We just don't know if he has given any thought to this third option or not. In other words it may not be a fork in the road, but a trident!

I hear you, NM Duke Fan, but don't you thin Seth's and Quinn's good experiences with the D League would encourage him to remain in the US of A?

NM Duke Fan
04-17-2017, 01:46 PM
I hear you, NM Duke Fan, but don't you thin Seth's and Quinn's good experiences with the D League would encourage him to remain in the US of A?

Yes, that indeed is another possibility. A part of the third prong of the trident so to speak, aside from staying at Duke or trying to make an NBA team as a free agent. I have not done a recent comparison on the salaries between the D league and say European leagues, but I am sure some of you are up to speed on such things, and could add your expertise.

BD80
04-17-2017, 01:49 PM
Yes, that indeed is another possibility. A part of the third prong of the trident so to speak, aside from staying at Duke or trying to make an NBA team as a free agent. I have not done a recent comparison on the salaries between the D league and say European leagues, but I am sure some of you are up to speed on such things, and could add your expertise.

Fork it. The fourth prong: graduate and transfer to play immediately at another school. Not saying he'd even consider it, but it is an avenue open for him.

subzero02
04-17-2017, 02:29 PM
Yes, that indeed is another possibility. A part of the third prong of the trident so to speak, aside from staying at Duke or trying to make an NBA team as a free agent. I have not done a recent comparison on the salaries between the D league and say European leagues, but I am sure some of you are up to speed on such things, and could add your expertise.

Players make significantly more in Europe. For the 2016-2017 season, the salary cap was $209,000 in the D-league. The pay scale was broken into 2 tiers, $19,500/year and $26,000/year. The appeal of the D-league is the chance to remain in the US and the potential for an immediate call up to the big show.

NM Duke Fan
04-17-2017, 03:37 PM
Players make significantly more in Europe. For the 2016-2017 season, the salary cap was $209,000 in the D-league. The pay scale was broken into 2 tiers, $19,500/year and $26,000/year. The appeal of the D-league is the chance to remain in the US and the potential for an immediate call up to the big show.

Thanks for the feedback, I had been under that strong impression regarding income potential. It seems to me also that the NBA has gotten far better and keeping tabs on the European players, both for initial drafting and later on consideration? In any case, Grayson has a few options, and with his sharp mind and great education, I hope he makes the decision that leads to his best possible future overall. And I do very much see the positives in a sterling Senior year at Duke ...

howardlander
04-17-2017, 03:43 PM
Players make significantly more in Europe. For the 2016-2017 season, the salary cap was $209,000 in the D-league. The pay scale was broken into 2 tiers, $19,500/year and $26,000/year. The appeal of the D-league is the chance to remain in the US and the potential for an immediate call up to the big show.

Yeah, that's the point I was trying to make about Allen. Why should he come back and play at Duke for free when he already has his degree, when he can make real money overseas? Here are the top 30 European salaries (not that he would be in that group) https://www.talkbasket.net/salaries but you get the idea. It's a lot more than the D-league

Howard

duke79
04-17-2017, 03:46 PM
In my post today I said nothing about how "awful" Grayson's experience was at Duke, far from it. I was just pointing out that this third option has not been talked about much, and there are players making good money overseas, in a successful money-making transition period before playing in the NBA. And yes, I am sure he has plenty of positives to his Duke experience. I have certainly seen comments from ladies who seem to like Grayson! We just don't know if he has given any thought to this third option or not. In other words it may not be a fork in the road, but a trident!

I hope I'm wrong but I'd be surprised if he decides to come back to Duke for next season. I realize making an NBA roster for next season may be a long shot (who knows where he would be drafted but apparently it would not be in the first round) but, as you note above, he does have other options - overseas play or the D league. If it were me, I would come back for my last season and enjoy the college experience and hope to improve my draft standing with an outstanding last year. I have no clue (obviously) what's going on in his head but I wonder if he is thinking that his many of his peers and teammates over the past three years are gone and that he'll feel out of place on the team next year and that's it's time to move on?

Wahoo2000
04-17-2017, 03:47 PM
Not wrong, but much of the footage used was taken when Grayson was hobbled with a "lower body injury."

It would be amazing for him to come back to Duke with the intention of becoming known as a "lock down defender."

Just can't see that happening. Being a defender on that level requires an amount of physical play that he's probably not going to be allowed to get away with based solely on the way referees commonly like to "keep things under control". I think it's good for Duke if Allen returns next year, but not sure it's good for Grayson. If he were my kid I'd tell him to get out of there and get a fresh start somewhere where he won't be the focus of of so much attention. Some might call that "running away", but I don't really see how staying would make anything better. Even if he "behaves" for the entire year, he'll still probably get verbally abused like no other athlete in college sports. That's the kind of thing that can develop a bitterness towards the game that can affect your career and lead to a loss of love in general for the sport.

dudog84
04-17-2017, 04:02 PM
Within the past 2 weeks, I read where the starting salary for a Duke MBA was $150,000+. I think tuition alone for 1 year is $65,000. Though they don't want to think about it, most of these guys know they are one serious leg injury from being out of the league, especially if they are a non-superstar, because there are always more bodies in the pipeline. Sure the NBA is their lifelong dream (it would be mine if I had the talent), but it's not a sure thing. Unless you get the guaranteed 1st round money.

Grayson Allen is a smart kid. I'm fairly sure he's taking the long view.

CameronBornAndBred
04-17-2017, 04:09 PM
Within the past 2 weeks, I read where the starting salary for a Duke MBA was $150,000+. I think tuition alone for 1 year is $65,000. Though they don't want to think about it, most of these guys know they are one serious leg injury from being out of the league, especially if they are a non-superstar, because there are always more bodies in the pipeline. Sure the NBA is their lifelong dream (it would be mine if I had the talent), but it's not a sure thing. Unless you get the guaranteed 1st round money.

Grayson Allen is a smart kid. I'm fairly sure he's taking the long view.
What is that number for a psychologist? (A job for which Grayson may be uniquely suited for.)


This fall, the psychology major is enrolled in corporate finance, oral history, Spanish, sports psychology and cultural anthropology. Allen said after the Blue Devils’ first exhibition game that after his basketball career, he might want to go into sports psychology.
http://www.dukechronicle.com/article/2016/11/grayson-allens-unique-academic-approach-in-the-one-and-done-era

NM Duke Fan
04-17-2017, 04:11 PM
Yeah, that's the point I was trying to make about Allen. Why should he come back and play at Duke for free when he already has his degree, when he can make real money overseas? Here are the top 30 European salaries (not that he would be in that group) https://www.talkbasket.net/salaries but you get the idea. It's a lot more than the D-league

Howard

Thanks for posting this excellent hard-data chart. Even with the Euro having gone down in value over the last couple years, there are some players making serious money. I suspected the potential was significantly greater in Europe over the D league, but it is even more than I had been keeping up with. Makes the "trident" aspect of things I mentioned even more the case in my mind.

I am having a hard time remembering when I myself was so uncertain as to what I thought was the best possible decision for a Duke player at this stage of his career. Perhaps the complexity of his options is a factor in why he has not yet tipped his hand?

Jeffrey
04-17-2017, 04:15 PM
Within the past 2 weeks, I read where the starting salary for a Duke MBA was $150,000+. I think tuition alone for 1 year is $65,000. Though they don't want to think about it, most of these guys know they are one serious leg injury from being out of the league, especially if they are a non-superstar, because there are always more bodies in the pipeline. Sure the NBA is their lifelong dream (it would be mine if I had the talent), but it's not a sure thing. Unless you get the guaranteed 1st round money.

Grayson Allen is a smart kid. I'm fairly sure he's taking the long view.

IMO, the Duke MBA would be very valuable to Grayson, regardless of how long he plays in the NBA. If he has a long and lucrative NBA career, then the Duke MBA would better prepare him for managing his wealth.

dudog84
04-17-2017, 04:20 PM
What is that number for a psychologist? (A job for which Grayson may be uniquely suited for.)


http://www.dukechronicle.com/article/2016/11/grayson-allens-unique-academic-approach-in-the-one-and-done-era

My understanding is that Grayson is graduating. Doesn't matter what the undergrad major is, anyone can get an MBA.

El_Diablo
04-17-2017, 04:25 PM
My understanding is that Grayson is graduating. Doesn't matter what the undergrad major is, anyone can get an MBA.

He's not going to get an MBA in one year (and it's doubtful he would even get accepted to the program with zero work experience), but maybe he can get an MMS certificate or something.

rsvman
04-17-2017, 04:28 PM
What is that number for a psychologist? (A job for which Grayson may be uniquely suited for.)


http://www.dukechronicle.com/article/2016/11/grayson-allens-unique-academic-approach-in-the-one-and-done-era

Don't know exact numbers, but I'd be surprised if a just-out-of-school psychologist made much more than about $60K a year.

dudog84
04-17-2017, 04:37 PM
He's not going to get an MBA in one year (and it's doubtful he would even get accepted to the program with zero work experience), but maybe he can get an MMS certificate or something.

I'm pretty sure Fuqua would take Grayson, for pete's sake. I don't know (and don't need to know) anything about the MBA program to know that.

flyingdutchdevil
04-17-2017, 04:43 PM
I'm pretty sure Fuqua would take Grayson, for pete's sake. I don't know (and don't need to know) anything about the MBA program to know that.

MMS. One year certificate from Fuqua. Not an MBA though. http://www.fuqua.duke.edu/mms-foundations-of-business/

And no way Fuqua takes Grayson into their day time program. Ain't happening. The school doesn't need the exposure (positive or negative) and Grayson won't have time to complete his second year once in the MBA. You're right that MBAs aren't challenging, but they do require some form of time commitment.

mdj
04-17-2017, 04:45 PM
He's not going to get an MBA in one year (and it's doubtful he would even get accepted to the program with zero work experience), but maybe he can get an MMS certificate or something.

Fairly confident that K can pull a few strings and get him into Fuqua.

flyingdutchdevil
04-17-2017, 04:51 PM
Fairly confident that K can pull a few strings and get him into Fuqua.

Coach K is heavily involved in Fuqua. He knows you cannot get a daytime MBA in a year. And the admin/facility wouldn't allow it. Trust me on this.

FadedTackyShirt
04-17-2017, 04:53 PM
He's not going to get an MBA in one year (and it's doubtful he would even get accepted to the program with zero work experience), but maybe he can get an MMS certificate or something.

Fuqua wouldn't and shouldn't admit Grayson to the MBA program; MMS would be more appropriate.

Fuqua's MBA programs are very collaborative and someone with zero business experience wouldn't add anything to their study group or the overall class.

Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15
04-17-2017, 04:54 PM
I have really been amused by all the discussion of graduate programs for basketball players this offseason.

Look, graduate programs are a loophole that allow a player to transfer. I would be shocked to see any of these players make a grad school transfer move on the basis of their education rather than their basketball career.

I could be wrong, but I haven't seen it yet. The athletes transfer for their own interests, just like earlier in their careers - playing time, program exposure, etc.

Grayson might get a grad degree at Duke, but it will be a product of wanting another year of basketball at Duke, not the other way around.

El_Diablo
04-17-2017, 04:57 PM
I'm pretty sure Fuqua would take Grayson, for pete's sake. I don't know (and don't need to know) anything about the MBA program to know that.


Fairly confident that K can pull a few strings and get him into Fuqua.

If he gets injured in the NBA and/or his career otherwise ends early, and he wants to come back in a few years to pursue an MBA, sure. He would not be the first former pro athlete to attend Fuqua. But I seriously doubt he would get into the daytime MBA program straight out of undergrad, with zero work experience.

And again, it's a two-year program, so I don't see the relevance in terms of his options for next year.

EDIT: FDD and FTS beat me to it.

bluedev_92
04-17-2017, 04:59 PM
MMS. One year certificate from Fuqua. Not an MBA though. http://www.fuqua.duke.edu/mms-foundations-of-business/

And no way Fuqua takes Grayson into their day time program. Ain't happening. The school doesn't need the exposure (positive or negative) and Grayson won't have time to complete his second year once in the MBA. You're right that MBAs aren't challenging, but they do require some form of time commitment.

Wondering - did you go to Fuqua or another one of the top MBA programs in the country?

mdj
04-17-2017, 04:59 PM
Coach K is heavily involved in Fuqua. He knows you cannot get a daytime MBA in a year. And the admin/facility wouldn't allow it. Trust me on this.

Maybe. I know Snyder went to law school and coached at Duke while enrolled in Fuqua. Then took a year off and coached in the NBA came back coached at Duke some more and got the law degree and MBA. If I was a betting man I'd bet Grayson could talk his way into enrolling in Fuqua but don't know for sure.

flyingdutchdevil
04-17-2017, 05:02 PM
If he gets injured in the NBA and/or his career otherwise ends early, and he wants to come back in a few years to pursue an MBA, sure. He would not be the first former pro athlete to attend Fuqua. But I seriously doubt he would get into the daytime MBA program straight out of undergrad, with zero work experience.

And again, it's a two-year program, so I don't see the relevance in terms of his options for next year.

Fuqua historically took recently graduated undergrads (Melinda French is the most famous example), but there likely hasn't been one in the last decade (at my time there, there wasn't one in ~1,300 students).

Even 2 years out is pretty rare (2-3 students a year). 3 years since graduating and it becomes pretty common.

Yeah - Grayson ain't getting his MBA at Fuqua in one year. In 2017-18.

Bay Area Duke Fan
04-17-2017, 05:15 PM
Perhaps this thread should be titled Grayson's Choices? After all, there is also the option of playing overseas for a year or two, where he could continue to get back to his full explosiveness and further develop his game -- and "go about his business." There are a few players over the years who went this route, and then came into the NBA and did well. Not saying this is what I expect, but it is something that has not been mentioned too much. Other players projected in the second round of the NBA draft found this their best overall option. I hope he comes back to Duke and is a strong player of the year candidate, moving way up in a rather weaker draft class. We will know within a week or so at the latest.

Kyle Singler played in Spain for a year after graduating; then joined the Pistons.

flyingdutchdevil
04-17-2017, 05:30 PM
Wondering - did you go to Fuqua or another one of the top MBA programs in the country?

Fuqua. Daytime. 2011-13.

wk2109
04-17-2017, 05:44 PM
Fuqua wouldn't and shouldn't admit Grayson to the MBA program; MMS would be more appropriate.

Fuqua's MBA programs are very collaborative and someone with zero business experience wouldn't add anything to their study group or the overall class.

Jordan Davidson got his MMS at Fuqua while playing for Duke: http://www.fuqua.duke.edu/mms-foundations-of-business/student-life/profiles/jordan/.

Per his LinkedIn profile, Todd Zafirovski got a "Master of Arts (M.A.), Markets and management" at Fuqua while on the team.

If Grayson wants a degree from Fuqua, I'd guess he'd take the route either Jordan or Todd took.

flyingdutchdevil
04-17-2017, 05:52 PM
Jordan Davidson got his MMS at Fuqua while playing for Duke: http://www.fuqua.duke.edu/mms-foundations-of-business/student-life/profiles/jordan/.

Per his LinkedIn profile, Todd Zafirovski got a "Master of Arts (M.A.), Markets and management" at Fuqua while on the team.

If Grayson wants a degree from Fuqua, I'd guess he'd take the route either Jordan or Todd took.

Exactly. Which is an MMS, not an MBA. Huge difference between the two.

sagegrouse
04-17-2017, 06:07 PM
Kyle Singler played in Spain for a year after graduating; then joined the Pistons.

And there was Danny Ferry, who got drafted by the Clippers under Donald Sterling and then fled to Italy for a year. The Virtus Roma club promised to rent a villa for his use. "No," he said, "I'd have to have my Mom come over and clean it." He got an apartment instead. Danny returned the following year, signing a ten-year contract with the Cavs.

BD80
04-17-2017, 06:49 PM
What is that number for a psychologist? (A job for which Grayson may be uniquely suited for.)

"This fall, the psychology major is enrolled in corporate finance, oral history, Spanish, sports psychology and cultural anthropology. Allen said after the Blue Devils’ first exhibition game that after his basketball career, he might want to go into sports psychology."

http://www.dukechronicle.com/article/2016/11/grayson-allens-unique-academic-approach-in-the-one-and-done-era

So the whole tripping experience was merely field research for his future profession?

That there is one dedicated student!

SilkyJ
04-17-2017, 09:54 PM
As a senior, he was able to put everything behind him, posting career-best numbers and efficiency and leading Duke to a memorable Final Four appearance.

I get your broader point, and I don't mean to nitpick, but to be honest, Duhon's senior year was only "OK" from a stats perspective and he didn't improve across the board or put up career bests in all the major categories.

- He shot 30% from 3, which was better than the 27% he shot as a junior, but worse than what he shot as a Freshman and Soph (and is a pretty bad 3 pt% overall)
- He did have a career high in FG%, so he became more efficient inside the arc
- He posted a career high in PPG at 10.0, but that was only a slight bump from 9.2 and 8.9 as a Jr & So
- His APG went down slightly from 6.4 as a Jr to 6.1 as a Soph
- His TS% of 53% was below both his Fresh and Soph years: 56% TS% both years

I do agree that he undoubtedly was our senior leader, the heart of the team, and one of the best players on the team. Without his leadership we don't go to the Final Four. That said, his most effcient years were actually his first two years.


Within the past 2 weeks, I read where the starting salary for a Duke MBA was $150,000+. I think tuition alone for 1 year is $65,000. Though they don't want to think about it, most of these guys know they are one serious leg injury from being out of the league, especially if they are a non-superstar, because there are always more bodies in the pipeline. Sure the NBA is their lifelong dream (it would be mine if I had the talent), but it's not a sure thing. Unless you get the guaranteed 1st round money.

Grayson Allen is a smart kid. I'm fairly sure he's taking the long view.

I doubt that's what you read. That would be very, very high. Here is Fuqua's info for the class of '16. (http://www.fuqua.duke.edu/documents/mba_recruiting/Duke_MBA_final_employment_stats_2015-16.pdf) Median salary was $121k, which is closer to the norm for top programs (HBS is typically tops and was $135k last year (http://www.hbs.edu/recruiting/data/Pages/detailed-charts.aspx#industry), and even the 75th percentile at HBS doesn't crack $150k).

Now if you factor in annual bonuses, signing bonuses, equity comp, etc. then you get to $150k+, but a salary of $150k would be by far the highest for all major MBA programs.


Fuqua historically took recently graduated undergrads (Melinda French is the most famous example), but there likely hasn't been one in the last decade (at my time there, there wasn't one in ~1,300 students).

Even 2 years out is pretty rare (2-3 students a year). 3 years since graduating and it becomes pretty common.

Yeah - Grayson ain't getting his MBA at Fuqua in one year. In 2017-18.

Yep, agree with FDD here. I think there was 1 "straight out of undergrad" person in my daytime/fulltime MBA class at Wharton (class size ~ 840). Its very uncommon, but exceptions are made for individuals with exceptional backgrounds. Grayson would qualify in my mind (yes, being an All-American in your sport is exceptional), but that said, and as everyone and their mother has pointed out, it would be uncommon to do it for someone that knew at the outset they weren't planning to stay the full 2 years. Stanford GSB may be an exception in this regard, but I doubt Fuqua is. (Side note, and not a direct analogy, but Jason Pierre Paul, the former NY Giants defensive end, is wrapping up his 2nd year at Wharton right now alongside a good friend of mine.)

IIRC, however, Grayson ended last year still needing a couple of credits to actually graduate. Personally, I like the idea of under-loading as a senior and having more free-time. Of course, I would have spent that time getting into trouble, but Grayson could use all that extra time to improve at his craft.

MCFinARL
04-17-2017, 10:40 PM
Exactly. Which is an MMS, not an MBA. Huge difference between the two.

Yes, I agree. It's hard (but not impossible) to get into Fuqua's MBA program if you are coming directly from undergraduate studies--most MBA candidates have worked for 2-5 years between college and business school. And there is no way someone coming directly from undergraduate studies (in under 4 years, no less) could complete the program in 1 year.

The Master of Management Studies program, on the other hand--a 1-year program launched (very astutely, I think) during the most recent recession to provide some business-related essentials to college graduates without marketable business-related skills at at time when companies didn't have a lot of openings for English and history majors--might be appropriate for someone like Grayson if he wants to stay at Duke one more year but has finished his undergraduate program, and it would provide some marketable skills for a psychology major like Grayson should professional basketball not work out as a long-term career (and some reasonably useful skills even if it does).

Another poster mentioned an MMS certificate--this is an undergraduate program (here the MMS stands for Markets and Management Studies, which is a bit confusing given the MMS degree program, where it stands for something else), which would be hard for Grayson to add into his undergraduate program now unless they have significantly changed the requirements over the past ten years. My daughter (Trinity '08) completed the MMS certificate, which required her to have completed a certain number of base courses before the second semester of her junior year. Of course, because she planned to spend the fall of her junior year abroad, and she could not get into the popular MMS basic courses in her sophomore year, she had to attend summer school between sophomore and junior year in order to do this. So if Grayson hasn't been working toward this certificate all along, they would have to waive that requirement (and make this formerly full-freight tuition-paying parent who had to pay for summer school VERY MAD) to make that work.

To be fair, my daughter learned a lot in the MMS program, which was in many ways a great program for people who still believe in a broad liberal education but want to develop some semblance of marketable skills. In the long run, it was probably worth the extra tuition (and the opportunity to spend a semester in Florence, which she might otherwise have foregone, was definitely worth it).

Eternal Outlaw
04-18-2017, 01:13 AM
Kyle Singler played in Spain for a year after graduating; then joined the Pistons.

Kind of unique circumstance though. That was the most recent strike/lock out cut season and people actually thought it might go the whole year or more. Pistons wanted him and he would have almost assuredly been an NBA player right out of the gate if he hadn't went to Spain. His choice wasn't so much about making it onto an NBA roster, he would have done that, the question is did he want to risk no basketball experience/paycheck in his first year post college and he decided to go play.

ChillinDuke
04-18-2017, 09:13 AM
<snip>

(Side note, and not a direct analogy, but Jason Pierre Paul, the former NY Giants defensive end, is wrapping up his 2nd year at Wharton right now alongside a good friend of mine.)

<snip>

Former?! He's back baby! (http://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/18932305/jason-pierre-paul-new-york-giants-agree-four-year-contract)

- Chillin

brevity
04-18-2017, 09:43 AM
(Side note, and not a direct analogy, but Jason Pierre Paul, the former NY Giants defensive end, is wrapping up his 2nd year at Wharton right now alongside a good friend of mine.)

He's amazing. I was lucky enough to read his paper "The Nine-Finger Discount: New Approaches to Reducing Inventory Shrinkage in Regional Retail Franchises".

Well, lucky in that Adam Schefter (http://www.nj.com/giants/index.ssf/2017/02/giants_jason_pierre-paul_espn_settle_lawsuit.html) stole an advance copy and shared it with me.

CrazyNotCrazie
04-18-2017, 10:01 AM
Yep, agree with FDD here. I think there was 1 "straight out of undergrad" person in my daytime/fulltime MBA class at Wharton (class size ~ 840). Its very uncommon, but exceptions are made for individuals with exceptional backgrounds. Grayson would qualify in my mind (yes, being an All-American in your sport is exceptional), but that said, and as everyone and their mother has pointed out, it would be uncommon to do it for someone that knew at the outset they weren't planning to stay the full 2 years. Stanford GSB may be an exception in this regard, but I doubt Fuqua is. (Side note, and not a direct analogy, but Jason Pierre Paul, the former NY Giants defensive end, is wrapping up his 2nd year at Wharton right now alongside a good friend of mine.)



I believe it is Justin Tuck, not JPP, you are referring to who is at Wharton right now. As a Wharton alum, this makes me feel a bit better about the value of my degree as JPP has not proven to be a beacon of intellect, while Tuck has always seemed like a bright guy. Plus Tuck is retired while JPP is still active, so it makes a lot more sense. A number of professional athletes have gone straight to top MBA programs directly after their pro careers (including Wharton alum Mark Alarie), but they are obviously significantly older.

I'm not sure when you attended Wharton but when I was there there were about 10 "sub-matrics" per class. These were students who were at the top of their class in the Wharton undergrad program and were able to become MBA first years during their senior years. I believe the thinking was that they would have little problem with the classes like finance and stats since they had done them as undergrads. These students had little to offer in the non-quant classes where most students had to tap into their past experiences - I recall most of the students in my class smirking when a sub-matric made reference to their internship experiences. They then generally ended up at investment banks, hired as associates over analysts who were often older than them.