Your Feelings About Players Who Left Early

[CharlestonDave]

A friend of mine who knows that I am a big Duke basketball fan asked me how I felt about players who left early as compared to players who stayed . He asked if I felt that they were ," True Dukies ", whatever that means. Do you have the same warm feeling about them ?

I know that times have changed drastically and in an interview Grant Hill said he would probably have been a one and done player today.

What is your feeling about players like Kyrie Irving, Jason Tatum , Ingram, Jabari Parker, Austin Rivers ,Corey Maggette, Luol Deng Okafor, Tyus Jones, Winslow as opposed to players like Sheldon Williams, Trajan Langdon, JJ Reddick, Thomas Hill, Chris Duhon, Quentin Cook, Kyle Singler, Jon Scheyer, Bobby Hurley, Christain Laettner, Grant Hill.

Does the fact that Okafor, Jones and Winslow won a National Championship affect your opinion ?

What about players that only stayed for 2 years, McRoberts, Brand, Avery ?

How about 3 year players , Jason Williams, Boozer, Mike Dunleavy, Gerald Henderson ?

How about transfers like Dahanty Jones, Roshoan McCloud, Hood ?

[flyingdutchdevil]

A friend of mine who knows that I am a big Duke basketball fan asked me how I felt about players who left early as compared to players who stayed . He asked if I felt that they were ," True Dukies ", whatever that means. Do you have the same warm feeling about them ?

I know that times have changed drastically and in an interview Grant Hill said he would probably have been a one and done player today.

What is your feeling about players like Kyrie Irving, Jason Tatum , Ingram, Jabari Parker, Austin Rivers ,Corey Maggette, Luol Deng Okafor, Tyus Jones, Winslow as opposed to players like Sheldon Williams, Trajan Langdon, JJ Reddick, Thomas Hill, Chris Duhon, Quentin Cook, Kyle Singler, Jon Scheyer, Bobby Hurley, Christain Laettner, Grant Hill.

Does the fact that Okafor, Jones and Winslow won a National Championship affect your opinion ?

What about players that only stayed for 2 years, McRoberts, Brand, Avery ?

How about 3 year players , Jason Williams, Boozer, Mike Dunleavy, Gerald Henderson ?

How about transfers like Dahanty Jones, Roshoan McCloud, Hood ?

Will comment on this topic a little later. Am commenting on the spelling now.

[hackysack123]

I generally have more of an appreciation and loyalty to 4-year players. That being said the National Title helps Tyus, Okafor, Winslow.

[OldPhiKap]

Glad for everyone who has ever committed to our program and contributed to it, whether I wish they had been here longer or not. It's their life, not mine, and they each have to make the best decision that works for them.

In a perfect world, we'd all be back to four year players. Those days are gone though, so no use pining for what no longer exists.

[Channing]

I love the 4 year guys, and JJ is probably my favorite NBA player. That said, most of our NBA alum are early entrants, and so those are the ones that I hear about on a regular basis. I loved Dave McClure, but I'm not sure the last time I heard about him.

I have more fond memories of the championship guys than the early exits, naturally. I have fond memories of Austin Rivers because of his dagger to UNC vs. a guy like Jabari Parker who, while being an awesome guy, left no real mark (as far as I am concerned) on the program.

For all of them, I am grateful they laced it up and gave me at least 1 Duke basketball season.

[Jeffrey]

Whenever I rank the best to play at Duke, I never seem to rank OADs. Kyrie may have been the most talented PG to play at Duke, but Hurley and Williams will always be my preference.

[uh_no]

Glad for everyone who has ever committed to our program and contributed to it, whether I wish they had been here longer or not. It's their life, not mine, and they each have to make the best decision that works for them.

In a perfect world, we'd all be back to four year players. Those days are gone though, so no use pining for what no longer exists.

Agree. The players don't owe me anything. Most, if not all, of them came, busted their asses, and contributed to the duke community, if even for a year.

Now if a player made it clear he had one foot out the door, caused trouble on campus, and failed all his classes, I'd have a very different opinion, and I'd guess he'd find his way off the court or team before the season was out. Fortunately that's never seemed to be an issue.

[CDu]

Glad for everyone who has ever committed to our program and contributed to it, whether I wish they had been here longer or not. It's their life, not mine, and they each have to make the best decision that works for them.

In a perfect world, we'd all be back to four year players. Those days are gone though, so no use pining for what no longer exists.


Agree. The players don't owe me anything. Most, if not all, of them came, busted their asses, and contributed to the duke community, if even for a year.

Now if a player made it clear he had one foot out the door, caused trouble on campus, and failed all his classes, I'd have a very different opinion, and I'd guess he'd find his way off the court or team before the season was out. Fortunately that's never seemed to be an issue.

Yep. They chose Duke. That is what matters. I can't fault them for choosing to pursue their dreams thereafter.

That being said, I can't say that the 1-year guys are a monolithic entity, nor are the 2-year guys, nor the 3-year guys, nor the 4-year guys. I like some of each more than others.

[DukieInKansas]

Although I prefer those that stay all 4 years, that isn't the way of the world these days. As others have said, I'm grateful for the time they were here. I hope that any that left early come back during their off season to continue working on their degrees.

Although Jason Williams left after 3 years, he did graduate in those 3 years and had a Senior night.

[flyingdutchdevil]

Yep. They chose Duke. That is what matters. I can't fault them for choosing to pursue their dreams thereafter.

That being said, I can't say that the 1-year guys are a monolithic entity, nor are the 2-year guys, nor the 3-year guys, nor the 4-year guys. I like some of each more than others.

While I agree, the weighted average of my "likability" per segment can easily be ranked by OAD last, 2OD second to last, 3OD second favorite, and 4-years guys my favorite.

It's not a coincidence that 2 of my 3 favorite Duke players are JJ Redick and Quinn Cook. But I certainly like some OADs more than 2OD (I like Winslow more than McBob, for instance) and I like some 3ODs more than 4-year guys (Henderson over Singler, for instance. Yeah - I'm pretty sure I'm in the minority on that one).

[FadedTackyShirt]

My respect and admiration for Duke players is based on how well they represent Duke on and off the court, not on raw campus tenure. Grant and Battier are ideal Duke hoops student-athletes, but wouldn't think less of them had they left before completing their eligibility in the current environment.

Would prefer everyone still stayed until they graduated, but pro careers are short (Hurley & JWill). That being said, earning a Duke degree (with or without an NBA career) says more about a player's true commitment/feelings about the University than when they choose to start the clock on their pro career.

People freaked out in '99 when Brand & Co left early. Would be interesting to see the reaction if a projected rotation fifth year player decided to play at Georgia Tech to pursue a graduate degree in engineering.

[hudlow]

I like admire and am thankful for everyone that puts on a Duke uniform.

I just like some better than others.

[Ballboy1998]

Every one of those guys has given me fond memories of his performances with DUKE on the front of his jersey, and I consider all of them to be a part of the Duke family. That said, the guys who stay longer create more memories and also allow us as fans more time to appreciate their growth and commitment to the program. Because of the more fulsome narratives, I will always have somewhat warmer memories of the four year guys, but I don't mean that to disparage the guys that leave early.

I love Tyus, Jah, and Justise, and will always consider them Dukies, but when I think of the 2015 championship and the celebration, I will think of Quinn Cook first and last. I will always think fondly of Austin Rivers's shot against UNC, but will think more fondly of Nolan Smith's performance in the comeback against UNC in 2011 or Wojo's senior night in 1998. Nothing can match the intensity, hunger, and even desperation of a senior who knows it is his last run. While the ending wasn't what we hoped, Matt and Amile personified that just last week.

[kAzE]

I would never, ever criticize someone for doing what they thought was the best thing for their own career. Not early departures, not transfers, not LeBron for going to Miami, and not KD for going to Golden State. It's their life and their career. They have the right to do what they feel is best for them.

I'll root for them while they wear the Duke jersey, and wish them the best (and still root for them) after they take it off. The only exception might be if they decided to transfer to UNC or UK . . . then I would have a problem with it ;)

[Devils Librarian]

I like admire and am thankful for everyone that puts on a Duke uniform.

I just like some better than others.

Hudlow summed up my feelings on the issue.

[hudlow]

I like admire and am thankful for everyone that puts on a Duke uniform.

I just like some better than others.

I thought there was a comma in between "like" and "admire"....but it went away when I cleaned the monitor screen.

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

I will wait for some other poster to arrive and tell me how I am supposed to feel. I don't feel comfortable making decisions like this on my own.

[phaedrus]

I like admire and am thankful for everyone that puts on a Duke uniform.

I just like some better than others.

All Duke players are equal. Some are more equal than others.

[Matches]

I get more attached to the 4 year guys. I guess it's weird to form these attachments at all but I'm as guilty of it as anyone. But I have no problem with rooting for any or all of them and pull for them in the NBA or wherever they play after college. I even root for Livingston who never set foot on campus.

[Devils Librarian]

The two one-and-done Duke players that I do not look back upon fondly are Austin Rivers and Jabari Parker.

Before everyone starts screaming that I HAVE TO LOVE Austin because of the shot, let me explain. Yes, I love the shot. I still watch it and giggle. My problem with Austin was that I felt like he caused chemistry problems with that team. Everything seemed to be about him, and I got that impression not only when he played basketball but also when I would see him around campus. The name on the front of the jersey is Duke not Austin.

When I look back at Jabari's season I just shake my head. All I remember is one of the worst defensive teams I've ever seen, losing to Carolina in the Dean Dome (in a game that had we won would have made three straight for Duke in the Dome), and losing to Mercer. I remember after losing to Mercer my wife and I went out to dinner and sat there staring at each other in stunned disbelief. I think we asked each other, "What the hell just happened?", at least five times.

Let me make this clear. I think Jabari is a really great kid. I root for him to succeed in the NBA, and I was upset to hear that he suffered another ACL injury. Simply because I don't look back fondly on the 2014 season doesn't mean I don't like him as a person. That being said, I reserve the right to like other Duke players more than him.

[Devil549]

I like all DUKE players who do/did things the right way. I do consider more multiple year players when naming all time favorites but must admit Kyrie probably best to play at DUKE.

It is a new world with1 and done so we must live with it. When need to enjoy these last few years (3-5 IMO) we have Coach K.

GO DUKE!!!!!!!

[Billy Dat]

I think it helps if you are an NBA fan who continues to follow the guys after they leave because your relationship with them goes on for much longer. I always root for them to do well and play well, and there are so many of them that it adds juice to otherwise meaningless games (insert joke about how the first 82 games are all meaningless..yuk yuk yuk)

[throatybeard]

If you're an adult, you know that your feelings don't matter one bit when some kid leaves college for the pros.

[gus]

I have nothing against the players who leave early: it's a rational decision, and as others noted, they owe the fans nothing.

But when I think about my favorite players, it is almost always players who stay. I think this is natural: you see them grow and improve, and you see them more. For me, as someone who doesn't follow the NBA, I just don't see Irving play, and barely got to see him at Duke.

Sadly too, this has affected my enjoyment of college basketball in general, and Duke in particular. I don't get as emotionally invested in the teams anymore.

Advancing age might be a confounding variable here.

[CharlestonDave]

I like all DUKE players who do/did things the right way. I do consider more multiple year players when naming all time favorites but must admit Kyrie probably best to play at DUKE.

It is a new world with1 and done so we must live with it. When need to enjoy these last few years (3-5 IMO) we have Coach K.

GO DUKE!!!!!!!

Agree that Kyrie probably best to play at Duke , although if Grant had not had those injury problems in the NBA , he probably would have.

Laettner was unquestionably the best college player ever to play at Duke and after Bill Walton and Karim , ( or Lou Alcinder ), he was the best college player ever .

[CDu]

Agree that Kyrie probably best to play at Duke , although if Grant had not had those injury problems in the NBA , he probably would have.

Laettner was unquestionably the best college player ever to play at Duke and after Bill Walton and Karim , ( or Lou Alcinder ), he was the best college player ever .

Irving has been a one-time All-NBA 3rd Teamer. Hill was a four-time All-NBA 2nd Teamer and a one-time All-NBA 1st Teamer.

Irving may someday surpass Hill as the greatest Duke player in NBA. But he still has a long way to go. Right now, it is Hill and it isn't close.

I think people too quickly forget just how great a player Hill was.

[kAzE]

Agree that Kyrie probably best to play at Duke , although if Grant had not had those injury problems in the NBA , he probably would have.

Laettner was unquestionably the best college player ever to play at Duke and after Bill Walton and Karim , ( or Lou Alcinder ), he was the best college player ever .

Dunno what you guys are talking about . . . Nobody loves Kyrie more than I do, but Grant Hill was the unquestionably the best overall player from Duke University. Injuries or not, his best years were far and away better than anything Kyrie has done from an individual standpoint. From 1994 to 2000, Grant played at least 70 games in the regular season 6 out 7 years in the NBA, and played 80 games in 3 of those years. Kyrie, now in his 6th year in the legaue, has played 70 games just twice, and has NEVER played 80 games in the regular season.

Grant was consistently one of the best defensive players in the league (even after the injuries), and a nightly threat to drop a triple double. He was voted as a first team All-NBA player once, and 4 times made 2nd team All-NBA. Kyrie has made 3rd team All-NBA just once. He has never been 1st or 2nd team, and has never been regarded as even a neutral defensive player.

Check your recency bias, it's showing.

[Troublemaker]

Agree that Kyrie probably best to play at Duke , although if Grant had not had those injury problems in the NBA , he probably would have.

Laettner was unquestionably the best college player ever to play at Duke and after Bill Walton and Karim , ( or Lou Alcinder ), he was the best college player ever .

Grant logged enough healthy seasons to make an All-NBA 1st team once and All-NBA 2nd team FOUR times.

Unless Kyrie continues to develop (especially defensively), he's not going to match those numbers. So Grant will always have a really strong argument for being the best Duke NBA player.

Edit: Wow, CDu and KaZe, that was quick.

[kAzE]

Edit: Wow, CDu and KaZe, that was quick.

You're telling me . . . CDu even took some punch out of my post with the same All-NBA argument that we both used . . . haha

Kyrie is 3rd right now. Elton Brand is the 2nd best Duke NBA player ever. Guy was a 20 and 10 machine, while still being a very good defensive player. He just played for the Clippers in his prime, and the achilles tear probably robbed him of what could have been a hall of fame career.

[Devilwin]

Four year guys, and it ain't even close. OADS I never follow in the NBA. I mean, I want them to have a successful career and all, but they just never seem to draw my loyalty.

[COYS]

You're telling me . . . CDu even took some punch out of my post with the same All-NBA argument that we both used . . . haha

Kyrie is 3rd right now. Elton Brand is the 2nd best Duke NBA player ever. Guy was a 20 and 10 machine, while still being a very good defensive player. He just played for the Clippers in his prime, and the achilles tear probably robbed him of what could have been a hall of fame career.

I totally agree. Brand was incredible from day one in the league. His '06 campaign should have had him in the MVP debate (I'm not saying he should have won, but he was top 5 that year, in my opinion). The Achilles tear cut short his prime and made his contract with the 76ers look really bad. Kyrie still needs to catch Elton before we can talk about him overtaking Grant.

[75Crazie]

Sadly too, this has affected my enjoyment of college basketball in general, and Duke in particular. I don't get as emotionally invested in the teams anymore.
A great big THIS, it represents my feelings as well. I have lost much of my passion for Duke basketball as I've seen it transition into a farm team for the NBA. This is probably inevitable, given the almost complete lack of a domestic alternative for the development of pro-caliber basketball players, but it puts a lie to the continuing assertion by the NCAA that it represents "collegiate athletics". There is nothing at all "collegiate" about a player who goes into a college program with a pre-conceived one-and-done attitude.

Until pigs fly and the NBA puts a true farm system in place for the development of young players (a la baseball), I expect my old passion to remain doused. And while college football in the main is no different, my passion for Duke football still exists to some degree because I really believe (probably naively) that the Duke program still presents an example of the old college system that I grew up with.

[Rich]

Glad for everyone who has ever committed to our program and contributed to it, whether I wish they had been here longer or not. It's their life, not mine, and they each have to make the best decision that works for them.

In a perfect world, we'd all be back to four year players. Those days are gone though, so no use pining for what no longer exists.

I would add "and keeps contributing to it." As long as they're welcomed back as part of the Duke Brotherhood for summer camps, talking to the team, etc. and take advantage of those opportunities, I'm good since it benefits and perpetuates the Program. I prefer the 4 year model for all players as a fan, but I prefer lots of things in life that no longer exist.

[CameronBornAndBred]

I'll sum up my feelings this way. When I see someone say after OAD Freshman announces his departure "Oh I am going to miss him so much", my reply is "He wasn't here long enough for me to miss."

I also look at transfers in a similar vein. I look at Miles and Marshall, two pine riders/role players for the most part for their first 2 years. Both came in with great expectations that were looking like they might not pan out. Their answer? They worked hard, earned their minutes, became fan favorites forever, and also national champions in the process. Every time I see a guy transfer out because he doesn't feel he's getting the minutes he needs to succeed, I think of MP1 and 3. They are the role models to me for how you get your minutes at Duke, and reach your potential in Cameron, instead of thinking greener pastures are on another court.

[kAzE]

I'll sum up my feelings this way. When I see someone say after OAD Freshman announces his departure "Oh I am going to miss him so much", my reply is "He wasn't here long enough for me to miss."

I also look at transfers in a similar vein. I look at Miles and Marshall, two pine riders/role players for the most part for their first 2 years. Both came in with great expectations that were looking like they might not pan out. Their answer? They worked hard, earned their minutes, became fan favorites forever, and also national champions in the process. Every time I see a guy transfer out because he doesn't feel he's getting the minutes he needs to succeed, I think of MP1 and 3. They are the role models to me for how you get your minutes at Duke, and reach your potential in Cameron, instead of thinking greener pastures are on another court.

I don't really understand this point of view. Yes, of course we love the guys who are willing to ride out years of sitting on the bench and eventually develop into solid players, but if Miles or Marshall Plumlee were projected as top 5 NBA draft picks in their freshmen year, what do you think they would have done?

Everybody has to run their own race. Some guys aren't ready to play in the ACC right away. They make a few appearances in the early non conference schedule and get buried on the bench as conference play starts. A lot of guys aren't ready to make the jump to the NBA after a year or 2, they stay in school and work on their game. A select few elite guys have the talent to go pro as early as high school. We should be thankful guys like Jayson committed to this program and lent the program his considerable talents in the pursuit of something greater than himself or a paycheck. He didn't have to come to Duke. He could have gone overseas and already started making money, like Emmanuel Mudiay did.

Anyone who expects guys like him to stay in school and spurn millions of dollars is kidding themselves. That's life-changing financial security for the player and his family. It's especially relevant to Jayson, who was raised by a single mother. Athletes have short careers. The average length of an NBA career is 4.8 years. Telling any kid who has a chance to make millions in the NBA to stay in school for 4 years is just selfish. Don't blame the players, blame the system.

[CameronBornAndBred]

Don't blame the players, blame the system.
I didn't blame anybody...I said I won't miss them. (Never had enough time to get attached.)

[elvis14]

I feel much more strongly about the players that stay more than one year, in general. Note, that's nothing negative about the OAD players, I love those guys too, just not as much. I follow our Duke players in the NBA some but I generally care more about the guys that played multiple years.

Of course we are all human. Certain players resonate with people more than others. Man I loved Tyus Stones, for example. I'm sure there are other people for whom Tyus was just OK but Justise or Jah was a guy they loved. That's cool. Most of the guys I really love are guys I get to see play more and grow more.

The OP asked if winning a championship makes a difference in how I feel about a player. I have to admit that it make a difference, especially for OAD players. There are other things too. For example, one of the reason's I really like Kyrie is because of the way he handled himself when he was injured. He was all class and was all about supporting his teammates. I really like that about him (and the obvious awesomeness on the court and Uncle Drew).

When I look at the list of players put up by the OP, I realize that I'm much more likely to be apathetic about OAD guys post Duke. Give me my Hurley, Christian, Grant, Shane, Jay, Elton, Dun, JJ, Nolan, Plumlee, Knolon Schmingler, Tommy, Johnny, Ewing, BigZ, Kyle, Trajen, Grayson. But every now an then I'm going to be all about a Tyus Jones or Kyrie Irving too. And while they are actively playing, OAD or not I'm 100% enthusiastic about them kicking butt!

[kAzE]

I didn't blame anybody...I said I won't miss them. (Never had enough time to get attached.)

That's fair . . . I just wanted to use your post as an excuse to rant. Sorry.

[stedge]

I hope every Duke basketball player has a happy, long, and successful life (however they define it), whether one and done or 2, 3, or 4 year. I hope they all learn about something other than basketball, and get a degree at some point. Pretty much same for a kid who leaves for a startup before graduating, etc, etc. Study broadly, keep learning throughout life, and have fun.

[weezie]

I'll sum up my feelings this way. When I see someone say after OAD Freshman announces his departure "Oh I am going to miss him so much", my reply is "He wasn't here long enough for me to miss."...


And yet, I still miss Justise...

[Jeffrey]

Kyrie probably best to play at DUKE.


Kyrie was the best to barely play at DUKE.

Are you meaning the best NBA career?

IMO, the best Duke career belongs to Laettner and that will never change in the OAD age.

[kako]

I think the fact that a 4-year player plays for four years (or more, like Jefferson) gives us the chance to watch that player develop and grow... and grow on us as fans and alumni. So I think it's understandable to have more affinity for those players. Watching a guy like Battier grow over those years was amazing. I almost named one my my daughter "Shane".

I think there are some other factors that would seem to bring less than 4-year players higher on the "scale":

- Was the player on NCAA championship team(s)? The reason to like them is obvious.
- Did the player do something outstanding? Ex. JWilliams vs. Maryland, Rivers vs. UNC, Dunleavy vs. Arizona, Allen vs. Wisconsin - these guys are in our memories
- Did they do something in the NBA - Ex. Irving's NBA championship/Series winning shot

So my answer is, it depends on the player.

Favorite early entrant: Tyus "Stones" Jones

[Jeffrey]

I almost named one my my daughter "Shane".


This is not horseshoes... step up your game!

[chriso]

I think the fact that a 4-year player plays for four years (or more, like Jefferson) gives us the chance to watch that player develop and grow... and grow on us as fans and alumni. So I think it's understandable to have more affinity for those players. Watching a guy like Battier grow over those years was amazing. I almost named one my my daughter "Shane".

I think there are some other factors that would seem to bring less than 4-year players higher on the "scale":

- Was the player on NCAA championship team(s)? The reason to like them is obvious.
- Did the player do something outstanding? Ex. JWilliams vs. Maryland, Rivers vs. UNC, Dunleavy vs. Arizona, Allen vs. Wisconsin - these guys are in our memories
- Did they do something in the NBA - Ex. Irving's NBA championship/Series winning shot

So my answer is, it depends on the player.

Favorite early entrant: Tyus "Stones" Jones

I don't mind when a few guys leave early; it's the price of success. I do remember being gutted when we lost to UConn and half the team left. I loved Avery and Maggette and was shocked when those 2 left. But it threw the next year's freshman class into the fire, and maybe we don't win the title 2 years later without it. My favorite one year player was Winslow. When we signed him I told my friend "this guy is going to bring us a title next year." And he did. Love his overall game and intensity.

[JNort]

No consistent reason why I favor some guys over others but time spent at Duke doesn't usually matter to me. Now obviously I loved the typical guys like Hurley, Christian, Grant, Battier, Boozer, etc etc etc all the way up to our more recent star players but here are some guys I loved as much or more so than the legends.

Guys I loved and wanted on the court from day 1 and my faith never wavered. These guys I can't explain what it really is I liked but I just did:
Marshall Plumlee
Quinn Cook

Some guys I have an extreme bias for and these tend to be my most loved because in my mind they were better than the numbers said they were. These guys I thought were either under utilized, struggled with injuries or just were not meant for the style we played at the time.
Ryan Kelly
Mason Plumlee
Brian Zoubek
Derryck Thorton

Some i just try to forget were even here...
Josh Hairston
David McClure
Greg Paulus
Lee Melchionne

Some guys I didn't like but just grew on me because of their 4 year stay.
Tyler Thornton
Amile Jefferson

As for the early exits I loved these the most.
Kyrie
Rivers
Oak
Deng
McBob
Hood


I got others but I need to be on my way now.

[JNort]

Kyrie was the best to barely play at DUKE.

Are you meaning the best NBA career?

IMO, the best Duke career belongs to Laettner and that will never change in the OAD age.

Idk about him but if you asked me who the best player to ever play at Duke was I wouldn't hesitate and say Grant Hill and Kyrie Irving with J Williams not far behind.

Doesn't matter about college or pro success necessarily but just the talent.

[Ima Facultiwyfe]

Coach K says that all he asks of the guys is that they "unpack their bags while they are here."

Sadly, times have changed (EVERYwhere in EVERy way) so I guess we all have to adjust.

Still, it was a lot more fun for all of us when we could not only get to know our OWN players, and at the same time love or hate the ones in the rest of the league. I used to be able to name every player on Virginia's team, or Ga. Techs, etc, etc. Now I don't think I could name more than a couple of them. Teams had whole personalities then that more often than not reflected the personalities of their famous coaches. Now it all looks like one, big amalgam of bodies I won't recognize except for the colors of their uniforms. It's hard to care as much for these faceless figures.

I think I still love the team of Dawkins, Alerie, etc, etc, who didn't win it all much more than the last team that won us a Natty and then grabbed a flight out as soon as they cut down the net.

Love, Ima

[Doria]

I just think I judge individually based on players in terms of which I like best. In terms of, uh, "real" Duke players, I don't even know what that means. If they came to Duke and played at Duke, they're real Duke players or whatever.

Now, as to the first, I too share a partial preference for the 4-year players, but I think that's really just because I get to know them better and share in their development, on and off the court. But sure, I've liked one and done players.

Personally, whether they won a championship doesn't really matter that much to me if I'm only considering my emotional reaction. I won't say it has zero effect, but I really liked some if the players on the '95 squad because they didn't quit, even after one gut-wrenching loss after another.

So beyond this, it's hard for me to generalize. I like players the way I (hope) I like other people, and it's hard to reduce it to a formula.

[YmoBeThere]

...but I prefer lots of things in life that no longer exist.

I'm still running Windows XP on one box...

[subzero02]

The two one-and-done Duke players that I do not look back upon fondly are Austin Rivers and Jabari Parker.

Before everyone starts screaming that I HAVE TO LOVE Austin because of the shot, let me explain. Yes, I love the shot. I still watch it and giggle. My problem with Austin was that I felt like he caused chemistry problems with that team. Everything seemed to be about him, and I got that impression not only when he played basketball but also when I would see him around campus. The name on the front of the jersey is Duke not Austin.

When I look back at Jabari's season I just shake my head. All I remember is one of the worst defensive teams I've ever seen, losing to Carolina in the Dean Dome (in a game that had we won would have made three straight for Duke in the Dome), and losing to Mercer. I remember after losing to Mercer my wife and I went out to dinner and sat there staring at each other in stunned disbelief. I think we asked each other, "What the hell just happened?", at least five times.

Let me make this clear. I think Jabari is a really great kid. I root for him to succeed in the NBA, and I was upset to hear that he suffered another ACL injury. Simply because I don't look back fondly on the 2014 season doesn't mean I don't like him as a person. That being said, I reserve the right to like other Duke players more than him.

Liking some players more than others is one thing; not looking upon some players fondly is different. If watching the shot only makes you giggle, you should probably watch the 5 minutes prior to the shot. Austin and Jabari are both great players and all Duke fans should look upon them fondly. They have both represented themselves extraordinarily well in their NBA careers; true grit and perseverance. i do agree about the 2014 game in the dome; it was a slow train wreck at the end.

[JNort]

The two one-and-done Duke players that I do not look back upon fondly are Austin Rivers and Jabari Parker.

Before everyone starts screaming that I HAVE TO LOVE Austin because of the shot, let me explain. Yes, I love the shot. I still watch it and giggle. My problem with Austin was that I felt like he caused chemistry problems with that team. Everything seemed to be about him, and I got that impression not only when he played basketball but also when I would see him around campus. The name on the front of the jersey is Duke not Austin.

When I look back at Jabari's season I just shake my head. All I remember is one of the worst defensive teams I've ever seen, losing to Carolina in the Dean Dome (in a game that had we won would have made three straight for Duke in the Dome), and losing to Mercer. I remember after losing to Mercer my wife and I went out to dinner and sat there staring at each other in stunned disbelief. I think we asked each other, "What the hell just happened?", at least five times.

Let me make this clear. I think Jabari is a really great kid. I root for him to succeed in the NBA, and I was upset to hear that he suffered another ACL injury. Simply because I don't look back fondly on the 2014 season doesn't mean I don't like him as a person. That being said, I reserve the right to like other Duke players more than him.

I've loved all all the one and dones but my least favorites if I had to choose were definitely Ingram and Tyus. Again I liked both but those were my two least favorites

[jv001]

Taylor King is my least favorite Duke transfer. I root/rooted for all the OADs, especially Kyrie because I believe he's a Dukie at heart, even though he only played 11 games for us. GoDuke!

[subzero02]

I've loved all all the one and dones but my least favorites if I had to choose were definitely Ingram and Tyus. Again I liked both but those were my two least favorites

Tyus is my favorite one and done player by far and i lIke them all . He is the most clutch freshman from a championship team that I have ever seen in any sport.

[SoCalDukeFan]

with transfers than OADs.

Transfers are usually for playing time. They knew what they were getting into went they decided to go to Duke. Duke knew what it was getting into when it recruited most of the OADs.

The OADs on teams that had unmemorable seasons are largely forgotten by me.

Its only natural that you have more affinity for the players you saw develop over 4 years.

While I don't hold it against anyone who left early for the rational decision of making big money, I do have more respect for the players that graduated.

My favorite Duke players of the Coach K era all graduated.

I do have a special place in my heart for Rivers. Loved the shot.

SoCal

[CharlestonDave]

THis years Final Four has 3 teams that do not or did not recruit One and Done Players and if UNC beats Kentucky probably 4. Last year's Champion, Villanova did not.

Maybe Coach K has to re-evaluate . It did not work out with Rivers, Parker, Ingrahm, Tatum , Giles . Yes we won a championship 2 years ago, but , and I could be wrong , I did not think that when Coach K recruited Jones and Winslow he thought that they would only stay for one year and then leave.

If Duval commits, we know he is gone , he has made it perfectly clear. I do not not know about the other 3 recruits , but I am almost certain O'Connell is here for the long run.

Maybe it is hard to build chemistry on a team when they know that their star recruit is only there for a year and might be more concerned in boosting his NBA stock. I am just surmising with no facts here.

I am certain that Coach K is not reading my post and will change his recruiting strategy , but in my opinion it needs some massaging .

[DukeDevilDeb]

The two one-and-done Duke players that I do not look back upon fondly are Austin Rivers and Jabari Parker.

Before everyone starts screaming that I HAVE TO LOVE Austin because of the shot, let me explain. Yes, I love the shot. I still watch it and giggle. My problem with Austin was that I felt like he caused chemistry problems with that team. Everything seemed to be about him, and I got that impression not only when he played basketball but also when I would see him around campus. The name on the front of the jersey is Duke not Austin.

When I look back at Jabari's season I just shake my head. All I remember is one of the worst defensive teams I've ever seen, losing to Carolina in the Dean Dome (in a game that had we won would have made three straight for Duke in the Dome), and losing to Mercer. I remember after losing to Mercer my wife and I went out to dinner and sat there staring at each other in stunned disbelief. I think we asked each other, "What the hell just happened?", at least five times.

Let me make this clear. I think Jabari is a really great kid. I root for him to succeed in the NBA, and I was upset to hear that he suffered another ACL injury. Simply because I don't look back fondly on the 2014 season doesn't mean I don't like him as a person. That being said, I reserve the right to like other Duke players more than him.

Nobody in my house will say you have to love Austin Rivers. Austin's self-love is more than sufficient to meet his ego's needs. I totally agree with your comments about Austin's impact on the team chemistry. After his journey through Duke, I finally understood the "cancer in the locker room" metaphor. I had Austin in class for one of his semesters. He walked in 5 to 10 minutes late EVERY SINGLE CLASS SESSION despite the fact that he didn't have far to go from his previous class. Actually, he swaggered in rather than walked. He appeared to believe that the jersey should have RIVERS on the front and Duke somewhere as a footnote. I might have been able to overlook this (though I doubt it) had he made a huge contribution to team success, but he didn't. And isn't it ironic that his NBA career has improved ever since the president/coach of his team turned out to be his father! :p See how his teammates like that! https://sports.yahoo.com/m/176842a4-07c2-3e4b-8267-a11cf6445832/report%3A-clippers-sort-of.html

Must admit it--that shot against Carolina was magnificent... and that was one of our most dramatic wins in the Smith Center. Another I'll never forget was Duhon taking the ball the length of the court by himself, making a layup, and then preventing UNC from doing exactly the same thing. Two brilliant Duke wins.

My attitude toward the guys depends more on their attitude toward Duke and their education than it does on when they left. A previous poster made the point that Jason (who has morphed into a Jay I don't much like) Williams graduated in 3 years... and that made a huge difference. While Dunleavy and Boozer both left at the same time after 3 years, Dunleavy returned and completed his degree (which I know because I worked with him) while Boozer never set foot in a classroom again. Is it any wonder that my memories of Mike are more positive than those of Carlos?

Finally, I have a photo of part of the Class of 2006 with all five seniors (Redick, Melchionni, Perkins, Williams, and Dockery) in their caps and gowns! They reside in a very special place in my heart I reserve for the True Blue Devils!

[SoCalDukeFan]

THis years Final Four has 3 teams that do not or did not recruit One and Done Players and if UNC beats Kentucky probably 4. Last year's Champion, Villanova did not.


The reason some schools do not recruit OADs is because they know they will not get them.

I am also pretty sure uncle-heaters recruited Brandon Ingram.

When a school is evaluating whether or not to recruit a player they need to assess the chances of being successful and avoid spending time and money on those that they have little chance of landing I would guess that nearly every and maybe every team that made the NCAA tournament would have taken Jason Tatum is he said he wanted to go to that school.

SoCal

[chriso]

THis years Final Four has 3 teams that do not or did not recruit One and Done Players and if UNC beats Kentucky probably 4. Last year's Champion, Villanova did not.

Maybe Coach K has to re-evaluate . It did not work out with Rivers, Parker, Ingrahm, Tatum , Giles . Yes we won a championship 2 years ago, but , and I could be wrong , I did not think that when Coach K recruited Jones and Winslow he thought that they would only stay for one year and then leave.

If Duval commits, we know he is gone , he has made it perfectly clear. I do not not know about the other 3 recruits , but I am almost certain O'Connell is here for the long run.

Maybe it is hard to build chemistry on a team when they know that their star recruit is only there for a year and might be more concerned in boosting his NBA stock. I am just surmising with no facts here.

I am certain that Coach K is not reading my post and will change his recruiting strategy , but in my opinion it needs some massaging .

Nice post. One thought regarding recruiting elite talent along with depth is that the depth may choose greener pastures, if they know someone better will be coming in each year and be ahead of them. So I think developing quality depth is difficult. Not sure what the answer is. You have to recruit the best players. I can't imagine many top 100 high school seniors think of themselves as "role players." And Amile and Matt, role players who stuck around, were starters who were solidly in the rotation by year two. If you recruit players who are not elite then they can't help you, and if you recruit highly rated players and don't play them they may leave. It's a delicate balancing act. I'd like to see 2 teams of 5 play, but I haven't won 5 National Championships. :)

[elvis14]

THis years Final Four has 3 teams that do not or did not recruit One and Done Players and if UNC beats Kentucky probably 4. Last year's Champion, Villanova did not.

Maybe Coach K has to re-evaluate . It did not work out with Rivers, Parker, Ingrahm, Tatum , Giles . Yes we won a championship 2 years ago, but , and I could be wrong , I did not think that when Coach K recruited Jones and Winslow he thought that they would only stay for one year and then leave.

If Duval commits, we know he is gone , he has made it perfectly clear. I do not not know about the other 3 recruits , but I am almost certain O'Connell is here for the long run.

Maybe it is hard to build chemistry on a team when they know that their star recruit is only there for a year and might be more concerned in boosting his NBA stock. I am just surmising with no facts here.

I am certain that Coach K is not reading my post and will change his recruiting strategy , but in my opinion it needs some massaging .

The final four will have teams that didn't land OAD players, that doesn't mean they didn't recruit them. In the case of the UNCheat, they have recruited a ton OAD players that they did't land. Plus they have multiple players that intended to be OAD (Hicks, Jackson) but that didn't progress well enough to go. I hope Ky and their team fill of OAD players wins.

As we bring in OAD players, I think we pretty much guarantee that we are going to have top 10 level teams. But to get these teams to the next level (say final 4 level), we need experienced players (like Grayson, Luke, Amile, Matt). It would help if we had healthy players and the right mix of guys. I do wonder if we need find a defense that works better for OAD.

[CharlestonDave]

The final four will have teams that didn't land OAD players, that doesn't mean they didn't recruit them. In the case of the UNCheat, they have recruited a ton OAD players that they did't land. Plus they have multiple players that intended to be OAD (Hicks, Jackson) but that didn't progress well enough to go. I hope Ky and their team fill of OAD players wins.

As we bring in OAD players, I think we pretty much guarantee that we are going to have top 10 level teams. But to get these teams to the next level (say final 4 level), we need experienced players (like Grayson, Luke, Amile, Matt). It would help if we had healthy players and the right mix of guys. I do wonder if we need find a defense that works better for OAD.

You are making an excellent point here, one that I really never considered....defense. Most if not all One and done players are terrific offensive players and that is what most likely recruits them. It is probably difficult to get them into buying a defensive strategy and plan in one year since most of them are super offensive talents in high school and are not really defensive minded.

Thanks for pointing that out .

[CDu]

You are making an excellent point here, one that I really never considered...defense. Most if not all One and done players are terrific offensive players and that is what most likely recruits them. It is probably difficult to get them into buying a defensive strategy and plan in one year since most of them are super offensive talents in high school and are not really defensive minded.

Thanks for pointing that out .

Calipari has proven that you can bring in one-and-dones and still play defense. His teams are almost always terrific on that end. For whatever reason, we haven't found the right formula on that end of the floor.

[FadedTackyShirt]

The final four will have teams that didn't land OAD players, that doesn't mean they didn't recruit them. In the case of the UNCheat, they have recruited a ton OAD players that they did't land. Plus they have multiple players that intended to be OAD (Hicks, Jackson) but that didn't progress well enough to go. I hope Ky and their team fill of OAD players wins.

As we bring in OAD players, I think we pretty much guarantee that we are going to have top 10 level teams. But to get these teams to the next level (say final 4 level), we need experienced players (like Grayson, Luke, Amile, Matt). It would help if we had healthy players and the right mix of guys. I do wonder if we need find a defense that works better for OAD.

UO recruits the same players as 'Zona & UCLA. All three are recruiting Marvin Bagley hard. UNC, South Carolina, and Florida are all recruiting Zion Williamson. Lack of success isn't the same as lack of effort.

Sadly K's time is short. Absent an NBA draft eligibility change or demands from Duke leadership to avoid OADs, K's not changing that element of his recruiting strategy.

Not a fan of OADs, but probably just as productive to hope K plays a ten man rotation in his final seasons as to hope he actively avoids recruiting the best possible talent (subject to Duke admissions constraints).

[brevity]

I am also pretty sure uncle-heaters recruited Brandon Ingram.

I have never heard aunts described this way. Your autocorrect typo is the best thing I've read in this thread.

Sorry, you all were prioritizing Duke players. Carry on.

[Dukehky]

I liked Tatum more than Matt Jones.

Being a four year guy doesn't automatically make a player more likable for me. If you're a stud and a senior, chances are they'll probably be pretty high on the list, but Jah may be my favorite Duke player since Battier. Idk why.

[MCFinARL]

This thread feels a little like deja vu all over again. Is it my imagination, or does someone start this discussion every spring? Not that there's anything wrong with that.


Whenever I rank the best to play at Duke, I never seem to rank OADs. Kyrie may have been the most talented PG to play at Duke, but Hurley and Williams will always be my preference.

Fair enough--although the very small number of games that Kyrie actually played at Duke might be a factor here. If he had played a whole season and, perhaps, won a national championship in the process, you might compare Kyrie more favorably to the others.


Agree. The players don't owe me anything. Most, if not all, of them came, busted their asses, and contributed to the duke community, if even for a year.

Now if a player made it clear he had one foot out the door, caused trouble on campus, and failed all his classes, I'd have a very different opinion, and I'd guess he'd find his way off the court or team before the season was out. Fortunately that's never seemed to be an issue.

I agree--I'm fine with players who are all in for Duke--academically and socially as well as athletically--while they are here, no matter how long that is.


If you're an adult, you know that your feelings don't matter one bit when some kid leaves college for the pros.

Of course--but that isn't really the point, is it? I don't think anyone is arguing that the players should care about, or be influenced by, our feelings. It's just a kind of academic off-season (sigh) debate about how people feel about one and done versus four year players--a way to pass the time until November.


Irving has been a one-time All-NBA 3rd Teamer. Hill was a four-time All-NBA 2nd Teamer and a one-time All-NBA 1st Teamer.

Irving may someday surpass Hill as the greatest Duke player in NBA. But he still has a long way to go. Right now, it is Hill and it isn't close.

I think people too quickly forget just how great a player Hill was.

Recency bias--a vice of all debates about player greatness.


And yet, I still miss Justise...

Amen.


I have more of a problem with transfers than OADs.

Transfers are usually for playing time. They knew what they were getting into went they decided to go to Duke. Duke knew what it was getting into when it recruited most of the OADs.


SoCal

Did they, though? Granted, they knew they weren't guaranteed any playing time. But they were kids with big dreams and may well not have realized how hard it would be to crack the rotation at Duke. Granted, a transfer isn't likely to be one of your favorite Duke players (though I still have fond memories of Jamal Boykin, who was as animated and enthusiastic on the bench, and in his limited minutes, as just about anyone I can remember), but personally I don't like them any less because they chose to transfer.

[CharlestonDave]

Not one team in the Final 4 has a One and Done Player , at least I do not think so .

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

Not one team in the Final 4 has a One and Done Player , at least I do not think so .

How many different threads are you posting this same comment in?

Also, lots of OAD players define their draft status by a memorable tournament. I officially hope that Tony Bradley does not leap to "one and done" status, because that suggests that he had two great games in Phoenix.

Kotsar or Felder from SC could make that sort of leap.

Or, none could, and you would be correct. I just don't quite see what your takeaway point is, CD.