If UNC Wins the Title, A Potential Re-evaluation of Roy vs. K

[slower]

Listen, I hate UNC as much as any and more than most (I work in Chapel Hill, among the toilet water-blue deplorables). And while it pains me to write the following, I can't be the only one having this thought.

Since Roy arrived at UNC, he and K each have 2 titles. Roy has an additional title game appearance. Both have 1 other Final Four appearance. Roy has 3 elite 8 finishes, K has 1. Roy has 1 Sweet Sixteen, K has 5. Roy has 4 2nd Round exits, K has 2. Roy has no 1st Round exits, K has 3. And Roy has that NIT year.

So, you could make an argument either way as to who has been more successful in that time period. But let's not pretend that there's any clear advantage for K.

However, IF UNC were to win it all this year, then Roy will have CLEARLY been more successful in that time period.

Now, I'm NOT saying Roy is a better coach, or that his overall career has been more successful. Almost ANYBODY (Duke or UNC fan) would rather have K than Roy.

But this year hurts. A LOT. And depending on how far UNC advances, we could see a pendulum swing in the rivalry. We dodged that bullet last year, and we have to hope we dodge it again this year. There's no telling exactly how another UNC natty would affect recruiting, other than that it WOULD affect it.

We have the seemingly-endless, yearly elephant in the room of our defensive struggles - at least, lately. Not sure if UNC has the same specific issue, but their offensive "system" is fairly well-established. And I know that we were snakebit to a ridiculous degree this year, but this year was still a MAJOR disappointment.

So we can all continue to regard Roy and UNC with smugness, but the numbers don't lie. Let's just hope they get eliminated soon.

Remember, this isn't a criticism of K, just an uneasy feeling I've had ever since last year (thank God for Kris Jenkins).

[kAzE]

. . . But Roy cheated.

[slower]

. . . But Roy cheated.
Not sure just how much consolation that REALLY gives any of us.

[UNCfan]

This angle is preached on IC often, and it does have merit. But, Duke is dominating the rivalry head to head and, is winning with the NCAA cloud UNC currently has. So, if that is the perception you are currently having, then that makes me happy. But, I can tell you UNC fans currently have a major inferiority complex when it comes to Duke and it started around 2000. When Roy returned and UNC won 2 NC, we got our swag back. I imagine we were ridiculous in regaining that swag. Then Duke wins 2 more NC's, UNC has NCAA issues, and we stop landing recruits. If we win one this year, we will be even more unbearable. But, we still have our NCAA issues that will not allow us to completely earn the top spot in the rivalry. Just my two cents, but UNC isn't even close to being top dog in this rivalry until that cloud has disappeared and K has retired.

[Devilwin]

You make some valid points. But we beat them two out of three this year, won the ACCT, and have beaten them like 16 of the last 21 times. We have beaten them six times in a row in the ACCT, and have won two NCAA titles since their last in 09. But you are correct on the other stuff. His players tend to stick around more so than ours, and they certainly seem to know a bit about defense, which has been an issue for us for years. But, I still hate them..:mad:

[FerryFor50]

Listen, I hate UNC as much as any and more than most (I work in Chapel Hill, among the toilet water-blue deplorables). And while it pains me to write the following, I can't be the only one having this thought.

Since Roy arrived at UNC, he and K each have 2 titles. Roy has an additional title game appearance. Both have 1 other Final Four appearance. Roy has 3 elite 8 finishes, K has 1. Roy has 1 Sweet Sixteen, K has 5. Roy has 4 2nd Round exits, K has 2. Roy has no 1st Round exits, K has 3. And Roy has that NIT year.

So, you could make an argument either way as to who has been more successful in that time period. But let's not pretend that there's any clear advantage for K.

However, IF UNC were to win it all this year, then Roy will have CLEARLY been more successful in that time period.

Now, I'm NOT saying Roy is a better coach, or that his overall career has been more successful. Almost ANYBODY (Duke or UNC fan) would rather have K than Roy.

But this year hurts. A LOT. And depending on how far UNC advances, we could see a pendulum swing in the rivalry. We dodged that bullet last year, and we have to hope we dodge it again this year. There's no telling exactly how another UNC natty would affect recruiting, other than that it WOULD affect it.

We have the seemingly-endless, yearly elephant in the room of our defensive struggles - at least, lately. Not sure if UNC has the same specific issue, but their offensive "system" is fairly well-established. And I know that we were snakebit to a ridiculous degree this year, but this year was still a MAJOR disappointment.

So we can all continue to regard Roy and UNC with smugness, but the numbers don't lie. Let's just hope they get eliminated soon.

Remember, this isn't a criticism of K, just an uneasy feeling I've had ever since last year (thank God for Kris Jenkins).

Why are you limiting the criteria just to when Roy arrived at UNC? He had a solid career at Kansas, too, which isn't exactly basketball chopped liver.

I'd look at their careers as a whole.

http://www.sports-reference.com/cbb/coaches/mike-krzyzewski-1.html
http://www.sports-reference.com/cbb/coaches/roy-williams-1.html

K is 1071-330 (.764 win percent, including his time at Army)
Roy is 812-216 (.790 win percent)

K has 5 titles; Roy has 2
K has 12 final fours; Roy has 8

I think Roy has more work to do to get to K's level. He's running out of time, though.

[PackMan97]

Roy has cheated at UNC and Kansas. He's likely cheating now. All of his accomplishments are forfeit.

It's like comparing the accomplishments of Lance Armstrong to Greg Lemond. It really doesn't matter how much Armstrong won when it's been proven than he won everything by cheating.

[slower]

Why are you limiting the criteria just to when Roy arrived at UNC?
Because that's my specific issue, that's why.

[slower]

Roy has cheated at UNC and Kansas. He's likely cheating now. All of his accomplishments are forfeit.

It's like comparing the accomplishments of Lance Armstrong to Greg Lemond. It really doesn't matter how much Armstrong won when it's been proven than he won everything by cheating.
And yet, FAR more people know of Lance than Greg. I didn't say any of this is logical or fair. Perceptions can be that way.

[Troublemaker]

[snip]hurts[snip]

Don't be hurt. UNC is a great program (on the court). It should not be surprising that they could be even with us or even slightly ahead in tourney results depending on the timeframe you observe.

[CDu]

I'm not really sure why it is relevant to look only at Williams' UNC time. It is not like he was at a mid-major before coming to UNC. He took his first head-coaching job at a blue-blood, and has never been at a program that doesn't have elite recruiting advantages. So why do we discount his time at Kansas?

Wouldn't it be more appropriate to look at the two coaches over their respect careers at top-tier programs? In that scenario, Coach K has 5 titles, Williams has 2.

Coach K was better from 1990-2001. They traded great years in 2003 and 2004. Williams then had a phenomenal run from 2005 to 2009. Duke had the edge from 2010 to 2015. Williams had a great year last year. It's possible that UNC makes a great run this year, though that remains to be seen. They have the team that beat them already in their bracket, and the team that beat that team in the bracket, so there is no guarantee that the reach the Final Four.

[slower]

I'm not really sure why it is relevant to look only at Williams' UNC time.

ONCE AGAIN, because THAT is my time frame. It's just as valid as any other. I've already said that K has a (much) better career to this point.

[75Crazie]

In a different, inappropriate thread, somebody made the following comment:

UNC today is Duke ten years ago: strong, developed, experienced talent who are tough and win regardless of their ability to recruit top 10 players.
I strongly disagree. To my knowledge, nobody has ever made a claim, much less substantiated it, that Duke ever set up phantom classes and created a library of canned term papers in order to maintain the "status" of its college athletic program. UNC today is nothing at all like Duke at any time of its athletic history.

[Duke79UNLV77]

And yet, FAR more people know of Lance than Greg. I didn't say any of this is logical or fair. Perceptions can be that way.

Of course, in this case the cheater also has won less than half the number of titles. I no longer view UNC as a legitimate cheater because of the cheating and shameless response to the scandal, but Ole Roy is in K's shadow any way you look at it.

[dukelifer]

Listen, I hate UNC as much as any and more than most (I work in Chapel Hill, among the toilet water-blue deplorables). And while it pains me to write the following, I can't be the only one having this thought.

Since Roy arrived at UNC, he and K each have 2 titles. Roy has an additional title game appearance. Both have 1 other Final Four appearance. Roy has 3 elite 8 finishes, K has 1. Roy has 1 Sweet Sixteen, K has 5. Roy has 4 2nd Round exits, K has 2. Roy has no 1st Round exits, K has 3. And Roy has that NIT year.

So, you could make an argument either way as to who has been more successful in that time period. But let's not pretend that there's any clear advantage for K.

However, IF UNC were to win it all this year, then Roy will have CLEARLY been more successful in that time period.

Now, I'm NOT saying Roy is a better coach, or that his overall career has been more successful. Almost ANYBODY (Duke or UNC fan) would rather have K than Roy.

But this year hurts. A LOT. And depending on how far UNC advances, we could see a pendulum swing in the rivalry. We dodged that bullet last year, and we have to hope we dodge it again this year. There's no telling exactly how another UNC natty would affect recruiting, other than that it WOULD affect it.

We have the seemingly-endless, yearly elephant in the room of our defensive struggles - at least, lately. Not sure if UNC has the same specific issue, but their offensive "system" is fairly well-established. And I know that we were snakebit to a ridiculous degree this year, but this year was still a MAJOR disappointment.

So we can all continue to regard Roy and UNC with smugness, but the numbers don't lie. Let's just hope they get eliminated soon.

Remember, this isn't a criticism of K, just an uneasy feeling I've had ever since last year (thank God for Kris Jenkins).

It does reevaluate Roy vs Dean for sure. A while back - I thought Roy was poised for several championships in a row. He was riding high in recruiting and seemed to have consistently good teams. He can certainly win it all this year. You have to count his time at Kansas in this evaluation. I am one of the few defenders of Roy on the board. I also don't get why his own fan base seems to hate him. He is an outstanding coach. He may be poor behind a microphone and may hang on to too many timeouts- but the man knows what he is doing. He has been very successful and may continue to be so. K is a flashier coach- but Roy is right there- his numbers prove it.

[superdave]

Hmmmmmmmm....... what happened in 2010 in Chapel Hill?

http://www.sports-reference.com/cbb/coaches/roy-williams-1.html



"Our massage therapist told me, 'You know, coach, what happened in Haiti is a catastrophe. What you're having is a disappointment,' " Williams said in a news conference Tuesday. "I told her that depends on what chair you're sitting in. It does feel like a catastrophe to me, because it's my life."

http://www.espn.com/mens-college-basketball/news/story?id=4907670

[cato]

There is no need to re-evaluate, if one is more measured in their evaluation in the first place. Roy Williams is an excellent college basketball coach. Certainly one of the absolute best in the business today, and likely among the all-time greats.

People put too much weight on outcomes that turn on tiny differences. Jenkins missing that shot would not have made Roy a better coach. Hitting it did not make Roy worse.

Asking who is better is a bit misguided. Based on the whole body of work, K comes out ahead. Based on a single year, well, I suspect each have done better jobs than the other.

I don't like Carolina outperforming Duke, as they have the last two years, but they have. Does that mean I would trade K for Roy?

Not in a heartbeat.

[CDu]

ONCE AGAIN, because THAT is my time frame. It's just as valid as any other. I've already said that K has a (much) better career to this point.

Whatever floats (or I guess sinks, in this case) your boat, I guess.

UNC is a great program. Duke is a great program. Both have had tons of success. I think we are doing just fine, regardless of whether UNC wins it this year (which I don't think will happen).

Over the long haul, and especially as it relates to the rivalry (both long-term and currently), I'll take Coach K over Coach Williams.

[PackMan97]

In a different, inappropriate thread, somebody made the following comment:

I strongly disagree. To my knowledge, nobody has ever made a claim, much less substantiated it, that Duke ever set up phantom classes and created a library of canned term papers in order to maintain the "status" of its college athletic program. UNC today is nothing at all like Duke at any time of its athletic history.

Yup, I remember when Greg Newton was busted in 1995 for cheating and kicked out of school for a year. (or at least off the team).

that's how a school deals with cheating. We've seen examples where Carolina football players plagerized content off some fith graders website and recieved no punishment at all.

http://sports.yahoo.com/blogs/dr-saturday/unc-erik-highsmith-caught-plagiarizing-11-olds-011818599--ncaaf.html

[TexHawk]

I'm not really sure why it is relevant to look only at Williams' UNC time. It is not like he was at a mid-major before coming to UNC. He took his first head-coaching job at a blue-blood, and has never been at a program that doesn't have elite recruiting advantages. So why do we discount his time at Kansas?


I'm not old enough to remember Duke before K got there, but KU, despite being defending national champs, had a ton of issues when Roy arrived in the summer of '88. He had to build a team of mostly underclassmen (80-90% of the ppg graduated), and was about to get hit with probation and a postseason ban brought on by his predecessor. The probation lost him 2 of his 3 star recruits (Thomas Hill and Harold Miner). The AD in general was struggling. He turned that around quickly to get to Final 4s in 92 and 93. Those years he actually tried hard as a coach.

Of course, even a wounded KU in the late 80s had massive advantages over the vast majority of other cbb schools. But it wasn't exactly a tuned-up, humming, shiny corvette. There was a degree of difficulty.

[Doria]

There is no need to re-evaluate, if one is more measured in their evaluation in the first place. Roy Williams is an excellent college basketball coach. Certainly one of the absolute best in the business today, and likely among the all-time greats.

People put too much weight on outcomes that turn on tiny differences. Jenkins missing that shot would not have made Roy a better coach. Hitting it did not make Roy worse.

Asking who is better is a bit misguided. Based on the whole body of work, K comes out ahead. Based on a single year, well, I suspect each have done better jobs than the other.

I don't like Carolina outperforming Duke, as they have the last two years, but they have. Does that mean I would trade K for Roy?

Not in a heartbeat.

I agree with this. I'd also add that Roy is a good recruiter.

Not sure about the penultimate sentence. If Carolina doesn't at least go to the Final Four this year, I'm hard pressed to see how they outperformed Duke (it would then be an unbalanced regular season championship versus an ACCT championship).

Ultimately, I'm honestly not sure how useful this comparison is. I'm sure anyone can manipulate the data to say what they it to, but I'm not certain that it will ever settle this question. And as Cato points out, if we're using wins and/or championships, a lot comes down to luck and/or things beyond a coach's control (e.g., one shot, injuries, etc.). Not saying that it isn't entertaining to think about, but I believe it has its limits. I certainly wouldn't get worked up over it, as both Duke and Carolina fans tend to do.

[UNCfan]

I certainly wouldn't get worked up over it, as both Duke and Carolina fans tend to do.

Packman clinging to his gun and his bible. Nothing else on the horizon to soak up that negative energy. I am really sorry this NCAA issue affects you the way it does. It must make for some long days waiting for the shoe to drop. I hope you find peace one day, whatever the result.

[kako]

This same talk happened after UNC won last decade. They had 2005 and 2009, K hadn't won since 2001. K was still up 3-2 over Ol' Roy, but talk happened. Then K won. And won again. Now he's up 5-2, and has a significant lead over UNC head-to-head since Roy showed up. K has also won far more ACC tournament crowns than Roy since 2005. K also never played in the NIT in the same period, unlike Roy's team in 2010.

If the Heels win, yeah, some noise may happen again. But K still owns the numbers overall, though it's 3-2 Bad Blue in championships since 2005. All the more reason to:

1. Root against Carolina (like this was a question)
2. Keep the Duke faith (just wish K would go to a deeper bench)

[Rich]

This angle is preached on IC often, and it does have merit. But, Duke is dominating the rivalry head to head and, is winning with the NCAA cloud UNC currently has. So, if that is the perception you are currently having, then that makes me happy. But, I can tell you UNC fans currently have a major inferiority complex when it comes to Duke and it started around 2000. When Roy returned and UNC won 2 NC, we got our swag back. I imagine we were ridiculous in regaining that swag. Then Duke wins 2 more NC's, UNC has NCAA issues, and we stop landing recruits. If we win one this year, we will be even more unbearable. But, we still have our NCAA issues that will not allow us to completely earn the top spot in the rivalry. Just my two cents, but UNC isn't even close to being top dog in this rivalry until that cloud has disappeared and K has retired.

The numbers can be tweaked or skewed any which way, but as long as Carolina fans have an inferiority complex towards K and Duke, that's good enough for me. I'm old enough to remember when they were king of the hill and we were just trying to get to their level. We've surpassed them and it's not going to change no matter how a few recent seasons turn out. It won't change until K and/or Roy retire and depends on where their successors take the respective programs.

[Indoor66]

The numbers can be tweaked or skewed any which way, but as long as Carolina fans have an inferiority complex towards K and Duke, that's good enough for me. I'm old enough to remember when they were king of the hill and we were just trying to get to their level. We've surpassed them and it's not going to change no matter how a few recent seasons turn out. It won't change until K and/or Roy retire and depends on where their successors take the respective programs.

And I am old enough to remember when Duke was king of the hill before the Dump moved ahead in the late 60's. The Sun Don't Shine On The Same Dog's Butt Every Day.

[Hauerwas]

I think the real question is, if given the dualistic choice, which coach would you want running your program, K or Roy? My guess is that even the most ardent Heel fan would reluctantly pick K. Interesting that during this same tenure K has received invitations from the Celtics, Lakers and who knows who else to be their next coach and I can't think of any NBA team, USA Team, etc.. that has reached out to Roy.

[UNCfan]

I think the real question is, if given the dualistic choice, which coach would you want running your program, K or Roy? My guess is that even the most ardent Heel fan would reluctantly pick K. Interesting that during this same tenure K has received invitations from the Celtics, Lakers and who knows who else to be their next coach and I can't think of any NBA team, USA Team, etc.. that has reached out to Roy.

You are incorrect assuming that a UNC fan would want K at the head of the program. UNC fans do not like K in the way you guys didn't like Dean. I cannot imagine you saying back in Dean's day that you would want him at your helm. A real UNC fan can admire Dukes success, but the coaches carry themselves differently and UNC favors the way Dean did it. I am sure Packman will pop in and say "yeah, they cheated." So be it.

From what I understand, the Lakers have approached Roy about the head coaching job, but he didn't make it public. It happened as recently as 2014, according to CBSsports.com.

[CDu]

I'm not old enough to remember Duke before K got there, but KU, despite being defending national champs, had a ton of issues when Roy arrived in the summer of '88. He had to build a team of mostly underclassmen (80-90% of the ppg graduated), and was about to get hit with probation and a postseason ban brought on by his predecessor. The probation lost him 2 of his 3 star recruits (Thomas Hill and Harold Miner). The AD in general was struggling. He turned that around quickly to get to Final 4s in 92 and 93. Those years he actually tried hard as a coach.

Of course, even a wounded KU in the late 80s had massive advantages over the vast majority of other cbb schools. But it wasn't exactly a tuned-up, humming, shiny corvette. There was a degree of difficulty.

KU was fresh off a national championship. While it is true that they were also hit with probation due to the Manning stuff. But they were a national champion program. In that day and age, that's a BIG deal.

Duke cerca 1980 was an okay team, but very much fighting uphill relative to UNC and roughly on par with NC State (which was a much better program back then). State had just hired Valvano after Sloan had left. Duke replaced Bill Foster with Coach K. But the recruiting well had run a bit dry. Coach K had inherited some good seniors (Banks and Dennard), and a couple of good younger players (Vince Taylor and Chip Engelland). But beyond that it wasn't a tremendously deep team. And it was a bad time to not be great. UNC was at the height of Dean Smith's powers. UVa had Ralph Sampson. NC State was building the team that would be the 1983 champs. Maryland was coached by Lefty Driesell.

The 1981 team did just okay. The 1982 and 1983 teams had a rough time of it as they were very young and in an incredibly unforgiving conference. Then, with the arrival of Tommy Amaker to join Dawkins, Alarie, Bilas, and Henderson, the wheels started rolling.

I'd argue that Coach K and Coach Williams had fairly similar challenges. Actually, I think Coach K probably had a tougher challenge given the relative strength of the conferences at the time that both took their jobs. Not that the Big-8 was bad - just that the ACC was tougher.

[duke4ever19]

UNC looked pretty fragile vs Arkansas. Something about those SEC teams . . .


I don't expect to see them in the Final Four.

[flyingdutchdevil]

You are incorrect assuming that a UNC fan would want K at the head of the program. UNC fans do not like K in the way you guys didn't like Dean. I cannot imagine you saying back in Dean's day that you would want him at your helm. A real UNC fan can admire Dukes success, but the coaches carry themselves differently and UNC favors the way Dean did it. I am sure Packman will pop in and say "yeah, they cheated." So be it.

From what I understand, the Lakers have approached Roy about the head coaching job, but he didn't make it public. It happened as recently as 2014, according to CBSsports.com.

A few things:

1) UNC did cheat. I mean, that's not really debatable. You can debate your punishment. But plenty of UNC athletes cheated academically. It's a pretty solid argument. And one that doesn't get old

2) Of course Duke doesn't want Dean and UNC doesn't want K! You think Auburn wants Saban? Or Liverpool wants Alex Ferguson? Or Heaven wants Satan? I mean, that's pretty normal.

3) Roy is a good coach. Not debatable. Better than K? Totally debatable. I say 'no way'. UNCers say 'of course'. I say '5 titles'. UNCers say 'Roy Williams will have 5 by the time he retires'. I say 'Head to head record'. UNCers say 'Look at our brass over the last 5-6 years'. I say 'our athletes go to class'. You say 'shut up'.

[WiJoe]

I agree with whatever PackMan97 types.

Th only reason the Lakes "approached" ol' huck was because the now FIRED mitch kupchak was high on the totem pole at the time.

roy williams ... what a friggin' JOKE.

[Utley]

What's the head to head record over this period? I know we have owned Roy recently.

My god I think folks are overreacting to the SC loss. It was one bad night/matchup. If feels like the panic after the State loss and the Miami loss. We have been finer for the last 27 years than anyone else and we will continue to be fine. We won't win the tourney every year.

All I know is I have watched a lot of Duke-UNC games and while I am far from an expert on this board, it's beyond clear to me that K>Roy.

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

ONCE AGAIN, because THAT is my time frame. It's just as valid as any other. I've already said that K has a (much) better career to this point.

My timeframe is since the 2014-2015 season, specifically so that my answer can be "nope, we're still way better."

[TexHawk]

While it is true that they were also hit with probation due to the Manning stuff

Correction: The probation was a result of buying a plane ticket for Vincent Askew to see his dying grandmother. He was considering a transfer from Memphis State at the time (1986), and thus was deemed a recruiting violation. I don't believe this is even a minor violation today.

Little known, but KU was under probation already from a football violation a couple years earlier, so the death penalty was seriously considered.

Thanks on the Duke history. Always good to know.

[devilnfla]

Why are you limiting the criteria just to when Roy arrived at UNC? He had a solid career at Kansas, too, which isn't exactly basketball chopped liver.

I'd look at their careers as a whole.

http://www.sports-reference.com/cbb/coaches/mike-krzyzewski-1.html
http://www.sports-reference.com/cbb/coaches/roy-williams-1.html

K is 1071-330 (.764 win percent, including his time at Army)
Roy is 812-216 (.790 win percent)

K has 5 titles; Roy has 2
K has 12 final fours; Roy has 8

I think Roy has more work to do to get to K's level. He's running out of time, though.

Couple things left off.

Roy didn't build unc or KU into the program they are today. While unc was down when he arrived, he won the 1st title with players he did not recruit.

K also beat him H2H in the 1991 title game.

K's Army record and early Duke record bring his overall winning % down.

Roy has 1 clear advantage. His winning % in the NIT.

[cato]

A few things:

1) UNC did cheat. I mean, that's not really debatable. You can debate your punishment. But plenty of UNC athletes cheated academically. It's a pretty solid argument. And one that doesn't get old



What punishment? No wonder UNC fans are so quiet about the subject.

[cato]

What's the head to head record over this period? I know we have owned Roy recently.

My god I think folks are overreacting to the SC loss. It was one bad night/matchup. If feels like the panic after the State loss and the Miami loss. We have been finer for the last 27 years than anyone else and we will continue to be fine. We won't win the tourney every year.

All I know is I have watched a lot of Duke-UNC games and while I am far from an expert on this board, it's beyond clear to me that K>Roy.

And hey, ACC Champs ain't a bad consolation prize.

[Jeffrey]

From what I understand, the Lakers have approached Roy about the head coaching job, but he didn't make it public. It happened as recently as 2014, according to CBSsports.com.

Makes sense! The Lakers have no academic requirements.

[Hauerwas]

You are incorrect assuming that a UNC fan would want K at the head of the program. UNC fans do not like K in the way you guys didn't like Dean. I cannot imagine you saying back in Dean's day that you would want him at your helm.

I didn't want Dean at Duke because he was a sanctimonious, holier than thou, closet chain smoker who created an auro that he was better than everyone while simultaneously creating the atmosphere leading to the greatest academic fraud in NCAA history. Dean was the embodiment of entitlement. Yet, Dean always had the odor of a fraud. He had a manipulative persona. I don't think even the most diehard UNC fan would say the same of K.

[Indoor66]

I didn't want Dean at Duke because he was a sanctimonious, holier than thou, closet chain smoker who created an auro that he was better than everyone while simultaneously creating the atmosphere leading to the greatest academic fraud in NCAA history. Dean was the embodiment of entitlement. Yet, Dean always had the odor of a fraud. He had a manipulative persona. I don't think even the most diehard UNC fan would say the same of K.

I agree with your entire post except that the last sentence is pure dreaming on your part. 😎

[PackMan97]

From what I understand, the Lakers have approached Roy about the head coaching job, but he didn't make it public. It happened as recently as 2014, according to CBSsports.com.

Heck, the Lakers have approached me for the head coaching job. No one that wants a future in coaching is willing to take that dumpster of a franchise right now. Figures a UNC grad ran it into the ground.

[crdaul]

I don't give a s#*# about Roy Williams and what he's done with the UNCjeaters!

[Jeffrey]

Heck, the Lakers have approached me for the head coaching job. No one that wants a future in coaching is willing to take that dumpster of a franchise right now. Figures a UNC grad ran it into the ground.

Jordan also mucked the Lakers up? It was an easy job. Geez, even a hillbilly could do it.

[weezie]

I spend one day off the board and this thread pops up. This is seriously challenging my Lenten "no drinking" abstention policy.

[PackMan97]

Jordan also mucked the Lakers up? It was an easy job. Geez, even a hillbilly could do it.

Naw, Mitch Kupchak. He did great with the team Larry West left him....but struggled to adapt post-Shaq and completely failed to deal with an aging Kobe and his exit.

[UNCfan]

Naw, Mitch Kupchak. He did great with the team Larry West left him...but struggled to adapt post-Shaq and completely failed to deal with an aging Kobe and his exit.

He won 5 championships since 2000. 3 back to back to back from 2000-2002 and then 2 in 2009-2010. Must have won in spite of him?

[Scorp4me]

hahaha this is a great thread.

I hope both K and Roy stay to coach as long as possible. That answers it for me :cool:

[CameronBornAndBred]

Looking forward to this thread being a moot point.

[wavedukefan70s]

No way they win it all.not with roy.

[Indoor66]

He won 5 championships since 2000. 3 back to back to back from 2000-2002 and then 2 in 2009-2010. Must have won in spite of him?

Ahhhhh, you figured it out. 😋😎

[ncexnyc]

Listen, I hate UNC as much as any and more than most (I work in Chapel Hill, among the toilet water-blue deplorables). And while it pains me to write the following, I can't be the only one having this thought.

Since Roy arrived at UNC, he and K each have 2 titles. Roy has an additional title game appearance. Both have 1 other Final Four appearance. Roy has 3 elite 8 finishes, K has 1. Roy has 1 Sweet Sixteen, K has 5. Roy has 4 2nd Round exits, K has 2. Roy has no 1st Round exits, K has 3. And Roy has that NIT year.

So, you could make an argument either way as to who has been more successful in that time period. But let's not pretend that there's any clear advantage for K.

However, IF UNC were to win it all this year, then Roy will have CLEARLY been more successful in that time period.

Now, I'm NOT saying Roy is a better coach, or that his overall career has been more successful. Almost ANYBODY (Duke or UNC fan) would rather have K than Roy.

But this year hurts. A LOT. And depending on how far UNC advances, we could see a pendulum swing in the rivalry. We dodged that bullet last year, and we have to hope we dodge it again this year. There's no telling exactly how another UNC natty would affect recruiting, other than that it WOULD affect it.

We have the seemingly-endless, yearly elephant in the room of our defensive struggles - at least, lately. Not sure if UNC has the same specific issue, but their offensive "system" is fairly well-established. And I know that we were snakebit to a ridiculous degree this year, but this year was still a MAJOR disappointment.

So we can all continue to regard Roy and UNC with smugness, but the numbers don't lie. Let's just hope they get eliminated soon.

Remember, this isn't a criticism of K, just an uneasy feeling I've had ever since last year (thank God for Kris Jenkins).

Gunnery Sergeant ncexnyc: Private Slower is silly and he's ignorant, but he's got guts, and guts is enough. Now, you ladies carry on!

Couldn't resist throwing a shout out to one of my favorite movies. There's absolutely nothing wrong with reflecting on what's transpired these past few seasons and think about what the future holds for the program.

Duke's calling card used to be great defense and is there anyone here who can honestly argue that what we've seen these past several years has been good let alone great defense?

We always talk about Coach K's fist mantra, but does anyone actually believe that the wave of O&D's actually buy into it? We used to mock UK for the very things we now seem to be doing.

Playing a short rotation is fine, as long as a player knows that by paying his dues, his time will come, but when model citizen after model citizens walks away from the program to become a star elsewhere isn't it time to reflect on why this is? How can you ask for loyalty from your players when you recruit over them left and right?

Yes, it's definitely time for some soul searching by both the fans and Coach K.. Let's not be hypocrites and make fun of Roy for honoring the tradition of starting his seniors on Senior Night and then claim that his players languish at UNC because they are being held back. Maybe there actually is something called loyalty. Something we seem to have lost in our program.

[mkirsh]

Isn't a better question "if UNC wins a title, a reevaluation of Roy vs Dean"? Roy will have more titles and a better winning percentage. I don't think anyone would put Roy above Dean, but should they?

[BigZ]

Roy didn't have the task to build programs like Dean and K did. Roy coached at Kansas and UNC after they were blue bloods. Despite not winning a title I think Roy was a better coach at Kansas

[dukebb444]

Huckleberry can't tote K's jock strap.

[OZ]

Seriously? Comparing Roy to Coach K? I honestly don't think that would have entered anyone's mind unless they were an AFAM recipient.

[moonpie23]

i tried to stay out of this thread, but my cat wouldn't let me...


compare Roy to K?

lets see...

5>2

5>3

5 is DEFINITLEY > 0 (if the COI does it's frickin' job)

and if he wins one this year...(or ever) 5 >1

K didn't cheat, and he didn't walk into a program with 3 titles already...


this thread is ridiculous...

[brevity]

This thread reminds me of ESPN's crack research department, which had to go back to 1977 to show that the Duke-UNC rivalry was about equal.

(Larry West?)

[devildeac]

This thread reminds me of ESPN's crack research department, which had to go back to 1977 to show that the Duke-UNC rivalry was about equal.

(Larry West?)


You might have the right term there. Or, it might be crock...

[Troublemaker]

People are just taking our loss so much harder than they should. I was over it by Tuesday. (And really, that's sort of embarrassing, too. >24 hours).

[JetpackJesus]

You might have the right term there. Or, it might be crock...

Or it's what fuels ESPN's research department.

[flyingdutchdevil]

Or it's what fuels ESPN's research department.

Is crack a nickname for Grayson Allen?

[westwall]

. Playing a short rotation is fine, as long as a player knows that by paying his dues, his time will come, but when model citizen after model citizens walks away from the program to become a star elsewhere isn't it time to reflect on why this is? How can you ask for loyalty from your players when you recruit over them left and right?

Yes, it's definitely time for some soul searching by both the fans and Coach K .


Yes. As I suggested in another (Jeter) thread, what is the relative importance of 'wins'. Do easy wins in November have the same in value as wins in March? In the Record they look the same, but should they?? And how does the Duke staff view this.? Questions for discussion.

[chriso]

No way they win it all.not with roy.

Putting aside the scandal, I think if UNC wins it all this year it is a legitimate discussion. I may get slammed for this, but I've always respected UNC and found them to be a worthy rival to Duke. Again, I am putting the scandal aside until the smoke clears. I am not okay with cheating and think the NCAA will rule accordingly, and then I need to re-evaluate. Roy wins consistently, as does K. They are 2 juggernauts of coaching. Purely in basketball terms, I think UNC has a heck of a program. I don't like them but I respect them. As I would expect a UNC fan to respect our program. If they don't; oh well. And no one loves Duke more than me. Peace friends and enjoy your weekend! :)

[75Crazie]

I am putting the scandal aside until the smoke clears. I am not okay with cheating and think the NCAA will rule accordingly, and then I need to re-evaluate.
You are basing your reaction to the Carolina scandal on how the NCAA reacts to it? There is a wealth of reliable published information (Dan Kane, Jay Smith, Mary Willingham, among others) that is readily available to anybody who has a true interest in what happened. Based on past NCAA behavior, it would be among the last of the sources that I would consider to be reliable.

[English]

This thread reminds me of ESPN's crack research department, which had to go back to 1977 to show that the Duke-UNC rivalry was about equal.

(Larry West?)

I have to believe whoever dropped Larry West into the mix must've meant The Logo, right?

[RepoMan]

Roy has cheated at UNC and Kansas. He's likely cheating now. All of his accomplishments are forfeit.

It's like comparing the accomplishments of Lance Armstrong to Greg Lemond. It really doesn't matter how much Armstrong won when it's been proven than he won everything by cheating.

Dude, You are awesome! No one ever slips one by! A heartfelt personal thanks for continuing to shine the light!

[chriso]

You are basing your reaction to the Carolina scandal on how the NCAA reacts to it? There is a wealth of reliable published information (Dan Kane, Jay Smith, Mary Willingham, among others) that is readily available to anybody who has a true interest in what happened. Based on past NCAA behavior, it would be among the last of the sources that I would consider to be reliable.
I'm just speculating on Roy vs K based on what they accomplished on the court. I think the NCAA should hammer them if warranted. You bring up good points.

[moonpie23]

am putting the scandal aside until the smoke clears.

7292

yeah...need to wait till that smoke clears to see if anything is really there...

[Indoor66]

I'm just speculating on Roy vs K based on what they accomplished on the court. I think the NCAA should hammer them if warranted. You bring up good points.

But what they accomplished on the court IS directly related to the cheating. K had to win with players who had to also perform in the classroom; Roy did not. The dedication of effort, both physical and mental is far easier when you do not have to worry about grades and eligibility.

[rsvman]

I'm kinda confused about the entire thread, including the title.

Isn't it akin to "If my daughter were good-looking, she'd be the prom queen"? Or, "If I had a 407-blown hemi in my 1976 Gremlin, it'd be a fast car"?

[Aziggazoomba]

Heck, the Lakers have approached me for the head coaching job. No one that wants a future in coaching is willing to take that dumpster of a franchise right now. Figures a UNC grad ran it into the ground.

As opposed to the many unqualified successes that so many former Wolfpackers have had in NBA management. . . .

[chriso]

7292

yeah...need to wait till that smoke clears to see if anything is really there...
Ok ok uncle. Point taken. 😄

[Aziggazoomba]

Roy has cheated at UNC and Kansas. He's likely cheating now. All of his accomplishments are forfeit.

It's like comparing the accomplishments of Lance Armstrong to Greg Lemond. It really doesn't matter how much Armstrong won when it's been proven than he won everything by cheating.

Ummm not quite.

But it obviously makes you feel good to say it, and I wouldn't want to rob you of your pleasure.

[Beagleboy]

Has USA Basketball hired Roy since he came to UNC that I'm not aware of?

[wavedukefan70s]

Putting aside the scandal, I think if UNC wins it all this year it is a legitimate discussion. I may get slammed for this, but I've always respected UNC and found them to be a worthy rival to Duke. Again, I am putting the scandal aside until the smoke clears. I am not okay with cheating and think the NCAA will rule accordingly, and then I need to re-evaluate. Roy wins consistently, as does K. They are 2 juggernauts of coaching. Purely in basketball terms, I think UNC has a heck of a program. I don't like them but I respect them. As I would expect a UNC fan to respect our program. If they don't; oh well. And no one loves Duke more than me. Peace friends and enjoy your weekend! :)
I think roy is a good coach and very good recruiter but not quite top of the pile.unc sorta recruits its self with its history though.
While i respect unc.you would most likely see elvis alive before i pull for them.
I cannot believe both carolinas won last night.if i had to pick one i wanted to win it .i would have to go with usc on general principal.

[slower]

I'm kinda confused about the entire thread, including the title.

Isn't it akin to "If my daughter were good-looking, she'd be the prom queen"? Or, "If I had a 407-blown hemi in my 1976 Gremlin, it'd be a fast car"?

Not sure what there is to be confused about. It's pretty straightforward. IF UNC wins the title this year (and I desperately hope they DON'T, because I loathe them), then Roy will have been more successful than K since Roy came to UNC. Not sure why so many around here seem to have reading comprehension issues.

You can stick your head(s) in the sand if you want. This year's early-season hubris seems far, far away right now.

[Troublemaker]

Not sure what there is to be confused about. It's pretty straightforward. IF UNC wins the title this year (and I desperately hope they DON'T, because I loathe them), then Roy will have been more successful than K since Roy came to UNC. Not sure why so many around here seem to have reading comprehension issues.

Well, not for long... probably not more than a few months...


I understood you. I don't agree with being so bothered by it.

(1) UNC and Roy are great (on the court) and have been great at everything (Finals Fours, ACC titles, etc.) except for winning against Duke

(2) Whatever you think about Roy vs K, it should not be altered so tremendously whether Roy goes 3-0 over the next 3 games or 2-1 or 1-1 or 0-1*. It seems like you already think they're equal as head coaches? Well, they'll still be equal if Roy wins the next 3 games. Or, perhaps your fear indicates you already feel Roy > K. In that case, Roy > K even if he loses on Sunday. Don't allow the results of a single one-and-done tournament to affect your opinion or your mood so much.

* Gut feeling is they go 0-1, i.e. lose to Kentucky on Sunday.

[arnie]

Well, not for long... probably not more than a few months...


I understood you. I don't agree with being so bothered by it.

(1) UNC and Roy are great (on the court) and have been great at everything (Finals Fours, ACC titles, etc.) except for winning against Duke

(2) Whatever you think about Roy vs K, it should not be altered so tremendously whether Roy goes 3-0 over the next 3 games or 2-1 or 1-1 or 0-1*. It seems like you already think they're equal as head coaches? Well, they'll still be equal if Roy wins the next 3 games. Or, perhaps your fear indicates you already feel Roy > K. In that case, Roy > K even if he loses on Sunday. Don't allow the results of a single one-and-done tournament to affect your opinion or your mood so much.

* Gut feeling is they go 0-1, i.e. lose to Kentucky on Sunday.
Early line has Roy favored over KY by 3

[Troublemaker]

Early line has Roy favored over KY by 3

Haha, Roy = UNC now

Yes, I'm aware of the line. Yes, I've already plopped a bunch of money down on Kentucky +3.

Man, maybe I'm reading it all wrong, but of the two programs we'd hate to see win it all this year -- UNC and Kentucky -- the real threat is Kentucky.

They're about to pay us back. Kentucky fans feel we won our titles in years (2015 and 2010) that they "should" have won. (2015 is probably fresh in Duke fans' minds, but in 2010, they had Demarcus Cousins, John Wall, Eric Bledsoe, and Patrick Patterson on the same team.) Well, UK's about to pay us back for one of those titles in 2017.

(A small --very small-- part of me wouldn't mind UNC beating UK by 1 or 2 points. I'm going to try to stamp that part out.)

[slower]

Well, not for long... probably not more than a few months...


I understood you. I don't agree with being so bothered by it.

(1) UNC and Roy are great (on the court) and have been great at everything (Finals Fours, ACC titles, etc.) except for winning against Duke

(2) Whatever you think about Roy vs K, it should not be altered so tremendously whether Roy goes 3-0 over the next 3 games or 2-1 or 1-1 or 0-1*. It seems like you already think they're equal as head coaches? Well, they'll still be equal if Roy wins the next 3 games. Or, perhaps your fear indicates you already feel Roy > K. In that case, Roy > K even if he loses on Sunday. Don't allow the results of a single one-and-done tournament to affect your opinion or your mood so much.

* Gut feeling is they go 0-1, i.e. lose to Kentucky on Sunday.
Again, you're misreading me. Just take what I said literally. SINCE ROY CAME TO UNC - that's the time period. K has a (much) better career and is regarded as a better coach. All I said is what I said - not sure why you all can't just read it literally without adding your theories about what I mean or feel.

[slower]

Haha, Roy = UNC now

Yes, I'm aware of the line. Yes, I've already plopped a bunch of money down on Kentucky +3.

Man, maybe I'm reading it all wrong, but of the two programs we'd hate to see win it all this year -- UNC and Kentucky -- the real threat is Kentucky.

They're about to pay us back. Kentucky fans feel we won our titles in years (2015 and 2010) that they "should" have won. (2015 is probably fresh in Duke fans' minds, but in 2010, they had Demarcus Cousins, John Wall, Eric Bledsoe, and Patrick Patterson on the same team.) Well, UK's about to pay us back for one of those titles in 2017.

(A small --very small-- part of me wouldn't mind UNC beating UK by 1 or 2 points. I'm going to try to stamp that part out.)

Fortunately, there just aren't many obnoxious UK fans in these parts.

[Troublemaker]

Again, you're misreading me. Just take what I said literally. SINCE ROY CAME TO UNC - that's the time period. K has a (much) better career and is regarded as a better coach. All I said is what I said - not sure why you all can't just read it literally without adding your theories about what I mean or feel.

No, again, I got it. Perhaps I should've been more specific, but take everything I wrote and apply it to your timeframe.

[Duke76]

No, again, I got it. Perhaps I should've been more specific, but take everything I wrote and apply it to your timeframe.

haven't read any of the previous posts in this thread but don't know if this observation has been discussed but one glaring strike against Roy that compliments his weakness to call timeouts is that he doesn't spend much time at all talking in the huddle during timeouts. I witnessed this firsthand recently in Greenville last Sunday. Every single timeout in the Arkansas game UNC would be first back onto the court....most times minutes before play was to resume....Arkansas always stayed in the huddle for the full timeout. always....

I thought for sure Carolina was gonna lose the game because the 5 guys would be out on the court waiting for play to resume, not talking to each other heads down and they would have if not for the utterly ridiculous no call on Berry's charge or travel with 46 seconds left.

Anyway, it is so apparent that Huck is an inferior game coach that regardless of winning another title or not K is the superior coach, hands down

[wavedukefan70s]

haven't read any of the previous posts in this thread but don't know if this observation has been discussed but one glaring strike against Roy that compliments his weakness to call timeouts is that he doesn't spend much time at all talking in the huddle during timeouts. I witnessed this firsthand recently in Greenville last Sunday. Every single timeout in the Arkansas game UNC would be first back onto the court...most times minutes before play was to resume...Arkansas always stayed in the huddle for the full timeout. always...

I thought for sure Carolina was gonna lose the game because the 5 guys would be out on the court waiting for play to resume, not talking to each other heads down and they would have if not for the utterly ridiculous no call on Berry's charge or travel with 46 seconds left.

Anyway, it is so apparent that Huck is an inferior game coach that regardless of winning another title or not K is the superior coach, hands down

Agree 100%

[wilko]

I'll reevaluate them now...
Still in pastels, still blow chunks.. easy.

[rsvman]

Not sure what there is to be confused about. It's pretty straightforward. IF UNC wins the title this year (and I desperately hope they DON'T, because I loathe them), then Roy will have been more successful than K since Roy came to UNC. Not sure why so many around here seem to have reading comprehension issues.

You can stick your head(s) in the sand if you want. This year's early-season hubris seems far, far away right now.

No, you don't get it. They haven't won the title this year. I think it highly unlikely that they will. So the entire discussion is moot.

If you allow any old "if," anything could be argued to be true. What if Roy had won 15 titles? Then would he be a better coach than K? Of course he would. Obviously. But it's a ridiculous conversation because he hasn't.

That's what I was trying to say.

[slower]

No, you don't get it. They haven't won the title this year. I think it highly unlikely that they will. So the entire discussion is moot.

Hence the "If/then" construction of my post.

Are you being deliberately obtuse?

[Scorp4me]

Hence the "If/then" construction of my post.

Are you being deliberately obtuse?

I'm sorry but winning a won and done tournament is not the best guage of success no matter how much importance is put into it. Now if we had the same format as say the NBA then I would probably feel different, but then the tournament wouldn't be as good. The simple fact is K is and has been more sucessful than Roy. I'm not sure how that is even questionable. That's no knock on Roy who has done well and if younger would probably enjoy tons of success after K retires. They just happen to be close in age.

I also think comparing Roy to Dean is an unfair comparison for both of them.

[rsvman]

Hence the "If/then" construction of my post.

Are you being deliberately obtuse?

Nope. I'm saying that "if/then" conversations can be deliberately ridiculous. It all depends on how likely the "if" clause is. Example: If I win 19 majors, then I'm a more important golfer than Tiger Woods; discuss. Ludicrous, because I'm an 11 handicap.

I feel almost the same way about the premise of this "if/then" discussion. Birds fly, frogs hop, and UNC losses to Kentucky in the tournament. It's what they do.

[slower]

Nope. I'm saying that "if/then" conversations can be deliberately ridiculous. It all depends on how likely the "if" clause is. Example: If I win 19 majors, then I'm a more important golfer than Tiger Woods; discuss. Ludicrous, because I'm an 11 handicap.

I feel almost the same way about the premise of this "if/then" discussion. Birds fly, frogs hop, and UNC losses to Kentucky in the tournament. It's what they do.

Sorry, I can see now that your obtuseness is not deliberate.

[DukeDevilDeb]

Listen, I hate UNC as much as any and more than most (I work in Chapel Hill, among the toilet water-blue deplorables). And while it pains me to write the following, I can't be the only one having this thought.

Since Roy arrived at UNC, he and K each have 2 titles. Roy has an additional title game appearance. Both have 1 other Final Four appearance. Roy has 3 elite 8 finishes, K has 1. Roy has 1 Sweet Sixteen, K has 5. Roy has 4 2nd Round exits, K has 2. Roy has no 1st Round exits, K has 3. And Roy has that NIT year.

So, you could make an argument either way as to who has been more successful in that time period. But let's not pretend that there's any clear advantage for K.

However, IF UNC were to win it all this year, then Roy will have CLEARLY been more successful in that time period.

Now, I'm NOT saying Roy is a better coach, or that his overall career has been more successful. Almost ANYBODY (Duke or UNC fan) would rather have K than Roy.

But this year hurts. A LOT. And depending on how far UNC advances, we could see a pendulum swing in the rivalry. We dodged that bullet last year, and we have to hope we dodge it again this year. There's no telling exactly how another UNC natty would affect recruiting, other than that it WOULD affect it.

We have the seemingly-endless, yearly elephant in the room of our defensive struggles - at least, lately. Not sure if UNC has the same specific issue, but their offensive "system" is fairly well-established. And I know that we were snakebit to a ridiculous degree this year, but this year was still a MAJOR disappointment.

So we can all continue to regard Roy and UNC with smugness, but the numbers don't lie. Let's just hope they get eliminated soon.

Remember, this isn't a criticism of K, just an uneasy feeling I've had ever since last year (thank God for Kris Jenkins).

This doesn't even make sense. You have to take the body of work. Roy never won anything at Kansas except a trip to the championship game where we beat them. Take some antacid...that might eliminate the uneasy feeling! ;)

[DukeDevilDeb]

Nope. I'm saying that "if/then" conversations can be deliberately ridiculous. It all depends on how likely the "if" clause is. Example: If I win 19 majors, then I'm a more important golfer than Tiger Woods; discuss. Ludicrous, because I'm an 11 handicap.

I feel almost the same way about the premise of this "if/then" discussion. Birds fly, frogs hop, and UNC losses to Kentucky in the tournament. It's what they do.

But I wouldn't put a lot of money on your prognostic capability! :(

[rsvman]

Yeah. Sad, right?

Let's just say that they should've won today. It was there for the taking. They made some really stupid tactical errors or they would've won.

I still don't think they're going to win the whole thing, but maybe that's because I'm just a positive kind of guy, rather than because I have some rational reason.

[NashvilleDevil]

Was really hoping UK won so this ridiculous thread would go away.

[jipops]

Give me 2 titles in a 12 year span over 3 titles and a massive scandal coming to light over that same time period. Easy choice. I'll take the coach that accomplished the former.

[Troublemaker]

Yeah. Sad, right?

Let's just say that they should've won today. It was there for the taking. They made some really stupid tactical errors or they would've won.

I still don't think they're going to win the whole thing, but maybe that's because I'm just a positive kind of guy, rather than because I have some rational reason.

Yeah, I've been wondering about myself as well. I believe I can put aside biases to rate a team, but maybe because Duke has controlled the head-to-head with UNC for several years now, it creates another bias that leads some of us to underestimate them.

Ultimately, I'll stick to my guns. The analysts and the public will have UNC as a relatively heavy favorite to win the national championship, but I think the computers (538, kenpom, etc) more closely match reality. I think UNC has about a 25-30% chance to win it all. (Still too close for comfort, but odds are against them.)

[dukelifer]

Yeah, I've been wondering about myself as well. I believe I can put aside biases to rate a team, but maybe because Duke has controlled the head-to-head with UNC for several years now, it creates another bias that leads some of us to underestimate them.

Ultimately, I'll stick to my guns. The analysts and the public will have UNC as a relatively heavy favorite to win the national championship, but I think the computers (538, kenpom, etc) more closely match reality. I think UNC has about a 25-30% chance to win it all. (Still too close for comfort, but odds are against them.)

The computers don't account for the redemption factor- and the confidence of being on the big stage before. UNC will not dominate any of the teams left and no teams left can dominate UNC. They have versatile shooters in Jackson and Berry and apparently now Maye. They also can rebound. A lot favors UNC in tight games. Duke beat them twice in games that Duke needed to come from behind. UNC has work to do and Berry is gimpy. Berry's play is most critical to their success.

[jv001]

Yeah, I've been wondering about myself as well. I believe I can put aside biases to rate a team, but maybe because Duke has controlled the head-to-head with UNC for several years now, it creates another bias that leads some of us to underestimate them.

Ultimately, I'll stick to my guns. The analysts and the public will have UNC as a relatively heavy favorite to win the national championship, but I think the computers (538, kenpom, etc) more closely match reality. I think UNC has about a 25-30% chance to win it all. (Still too close for comfort, but odds are against them.)

I posted in another thread that the team that could and would beat the UNcheats lost to SC. That team is the Duke University Blue Devils. I bet the uncheat fans would like to be able to add University behind those fraudulent letters(unc). I hope you are right and that the good Lord punishes them with another heart breaking loss. GoDuke!

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

For all the fun poked at Roy for timeout usage or lack thereof, letting his guys play out the last 7 seconds after the made 3 looks like the right move. They attacked and took advantage of a Kentucky defense that scrambled to get back after the shot went down, collapsed on Pinson, and didn't and contingency play for a short pass.

[Dukehky]

Okay, Roy didn't call a TO with 7 seconds left, that's not really enough time to draw up and get anything good especially when you have to go the length of the court. Couple that with how many blunders have occurred on his watch by his not calling time outs at the end of games, and I'm not ready to call him some kind of coaching savant. He never calls time outs at the ends of games, and has gone on the record saying so.


Back to the original point of this post, I will not reevaluate how I view the two of these coaches. Roy won in large part, his first two titles because they had the best PG in the country, oh, and used ineligible players.

Lately, Roy has been successful because he has been LUCKY. Not lucky in the sense of how his players play, they play and they win. Good for them. He gets lucky by the kind of team he puts on the floor. His 5 starters are all McDonald's All-Americans, Kennedy Meeks and Isaiah Hicks are 2 of 5 seniors left from their McDs team. The other 3 starters, were all McDonald's All Americas and are 3 left of the 6 players on those teams to still be in college. They haven't fallen off the face of the cliff because they are slow to let underclassmen DO anything, and none of these guys left.

Throw that in with the fact that their major, catastrophic injury, their oh man, we're so snake bit the world is against us moment, came when Kenny Williams (who?) got hurt. Kenny Williams only got hurt after Theo Pinson was back to being healthy, and you know what? Theo Pinson is way better than Kenny Williams, and this way Roy could give him all the minutes without having to worry about it. This is fortunate (I hope Kenny Williams gets healthy and has a long and successful career).

THEN lets take a look at the conference schedules that have lined them up for 1 seeds the past two years. Bahhhhhhh. Luck. Let's look at their bracket they had to go through last year to get to the final, bahhhhhhh, luck.

So no, I think I'll stick with Coach K and Duke's rate, even with their "success" over the past 2 seasons. Oh, and there aren't major violations hanging over Duke's program.

[weezie]

And, please keep in mind that Coach K would never embarrass us with those hideous, loud, dumpy sport coats that Ol'huck gets at Men's Wearhouse, Rodeo Clown Label. K is always perfectly tailored and elegant, as his esteemed position merits.

This thread is giving me a headache.

[Troublemaker]

The computers don't account for the redemption factor- and the confidence of being on the big stage before. UNC will not dominate any of the teams left and no teams left can dominate UNC. They have versatile shooters in Jackson and Berry and apparently now Maye. They also can rebound. A lot favors UNC in tight games. Duke beat them twice in games that Duke needed to come from behind. UNC has work to do and Berry is gimpy. Berry's play is most critical to their success.

The redemption factor didn't work for the Fab Five. Or, more recently, Butler. Or Ben Howland's UCLA teams. You are allowed to make the Final Four again and not win it all again.

That said, at this stage, they do have a 25-30% chance in my estimation. Which is too close for comfort.

[chriso]

And, please keep in mind that Coach K would never embarrass us with those hideous, loud, dumpy sport coats that Ol'huck gets at Men's Wearhouse, Rodeo Clown Label. K is always perfectly tailored and elegant, as his esteemed position merits.

This thread is giving me a headache.

Haha. I have faith in the Ducks. They were probably a Pac 12 title game victory short of being a one seed and beat UCLA and Arizona by 27 in February.(Arizona by 27). Don't let the silly uniforms fool you. They don't back down to anyone. They are not a flash in the pan. I think the Ducks are gonna do it. And I'm hardly a Duck fan; except for this week. Have faith my friends! :cool:

[Indoor66]

Cheer for the Birds....:cool:

[Reddevil]

The redemption factor didn't work for the Fab Five. Or, more recently, Butler. Or Ben Howland's UCLA teams. You are allowed to make the Final Four again and not win it all again.

or Phi Slamma Jamma. You're right though, redemption is a fan thing. Each year is different. That is why after winning a championship, Coach K says about the next season, "We are not defending anything. That is in the past."

[swood1000]

Why are you limiting the criteria just to when Roy arrived at UNC? He had a solid career at Kansas, too, which isn't exactly basketball chopped liver.

I'd look at their careers as a whole.

http://www.sports-reference.com/cbb/coaches/mike-krzyzewski-1.html
http://www.sports-reference.com/cbb/coaches/roy-williams-1.html

K is 1071-330 (.764 win percent, including his time at Army)
Roy is 812-216 (.790 win percent)

K has 5 titles; Roy has 2
K has 12 final fours; Roy has 8

I think Roy has more work to do to get to K's level. He's running out of time, though.

He's not only running out of time, he's about to enter a negative win phase. His post-vacation totals likely will look different (absent NOA-4), and the tarnish will be hard to rub off.

[Atlanta Duke]

Was really hoping UK won so this ridiculous thread would go away.

But then the possibility of Cal winning his second national championship and going to his 5th Final Four since arriving at UK might have prompted a thread on "If UK Wins the Title, A Potential Re-evaluation of Cal vs. K" :rolleyes:

[rsvman]

But then the possibility of Cal winning his second national championship and going to his 5th Final Four since arriving at UK might have prompted a thread on "If UK Wins the Title, A Potential Re-evaluation of Cal vs. K" :rolleyes:

Ha! Not sure whether Cal's players recognized that UNC had gone into a zone. They sure didn't play like they understood it. I hope Cal knew. He probably should've called a time-out and explained the situation. His in-game coaching was pretty abysmal yesterday, that much is sure.

[eddiehaskell]

But then the possibility of Cal winning his second national championship and going to his 5th Final Four since arriving at UK might have prompted a thread on "If UK Wins the Title, A Potential Re-evaluation of Cal vs. K" :rolleyes:Long term Cal is the bigger threat. 2 natties with the way he recruits and at his age could easily lead to a 4th or 5th by the time he's 70 (only 58 now). With 1 he's got a pretty huge mountain to climb.

[jv001]

Ha! Not sure whether Cal's players recognized that UNC had gone into a zone. They sure didn't play like they understood it. I hope Cal knew. He probably should've called a time-out and explained the situation. His in-game coaching was pretty abysmal yesterday, that much is sure.

On XM radio today one of the announcers said when Cal was interviewed he said in the timeout he thought the cheats(my words) would possibly go to zone coming out of the TO. He also said that some of his assistant coaches said no and others agreed with him. Whatever the case, they sure didn't score against the zone.
On another show, the announcers said that old roy was excited and praising himself for going to that zone. It was dagum this and freaking that. I guess lady luck finally caught up with him and he made a good decision for once. GoDuke!

[Indoor66]

On XM radio today one of the announcers said when Cal was interviewed he said in the timeout he thought the cheats(my words) would possibly go to zone coming out of the TO. He also said that some of his assistant coaches said no and others agreed with him. Whatever the case, they sure didn't score against the zone.
On another show, the announcers said that old roy was excited and praising himself for going to that zone. It was dagum this and freaking that. I guess lady luck finally caught up with him and he made a good decision for once. GoDuke!

Blind Hogs and Acorns and all that....:p:cool:

[AtlDuke72]

Blind Hogs and Acorns and all that...:p:cool:

After the last Duke win against UNC the fan base on Inside Carolina wanted to fire him. Roy is obviously a very good coach, but it is just as obvious that Coach K is at a different level. I could not make myself root for the Heels even against Kentucky, but I am happy for Roy since I think that he is a very good man. A friend told me about a kid at Roy's UNC basketball camp who got an emergency appendectomy. The parents lived in Kansas. Roy personally took the boy to the hospital and stayed there all night. The story of how Roy actually got into coaching and his drive to get there is really impressive. Taking care of that boy is all I needed to hear. I still hope the Heels lose every game.

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

After the last Duke win against UNC the fan base on Inside Carolina wanted to fire him.

Sounds like the whiplash that occurred here between ACC Championship Saturday and the following Sunday.

[AtlDuke72]

Sounds like the whiplash that occurred here between ACC Championship Saturday and the following Sunday.

Sad but true.

[davekay1971]

Now that it's happened, let me re-evaluate...

Yep, K is still better.

[accfanfrom1970]

K is not only better...Roy cheated. He knew they cheated. He is and always be a cheater. If K and Duke did what UNCheats did, I could no longer be a fan. How intelligent people call themselves fans with all the cheating is beyond comprehension. Talk about denial....

[DukeFanSince1990]

Is this a serious thread?

[ClosetHurleyFan]

K is not only better...Roy cheated. He knew they cheated. He is and always be a cheater. If K and Duke did what UNCheats did, I could no longer be a fan. How intelligent people call themselves fans with all the cheating is beyond comprehension. Talk about denial...

How exactly do you know that Roy cheated? Define cheat. Lets talk specifics here.

[billy]

Easy - Roy is 3/5's the coach K is

[devildeac]

How exactly do you know that Roy cheated? Define cheat. Lets talk specifics here.

http://3qh929iorux3fdpl532k03kg.wpengine.netdna-cdn.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/10/UNC-FINAL-REPORT.pdf

http://www.newsobserver.com/sports/college/acc/unc/unc-now/article122813999.html

Might take you a few months (years?) to review 130+ pages and 730 pages (?) of exhibits of the Wainstein Report and the new and improved NOA (aka AANOA or NOA #3), so be sure you have a few fine comestibles in the fridge so you can sustain yourself over that period of time.

[swood1000]

How exactly do you know that Roy cheated? Define cheat. Lets talk specifics here.

Well, there's always this:

"McCants told "Outside the Lines" that he could have been academically ineligible to play during the championship season had he not been provided the assistance. Further, he said head basketball coach Roy Williams knew about the "paper class" system at UNC. The so-called paper classes didn't require students to go to class; rather, students were required to submit only one term paper to receive a grade." http://www.espn.com/espn/otl/story/_/id/11036924/former-north-carolina-basketball-star-rashad-mccants-says-took-sham-classes


Then there's the fact that the Wainstein report said that "Basketball counselor Wayne Walden acknowledged knowing how the classes worked, including that Crowder did at least some of the grading." What is the likelihood that Walden would have kept this from Roy?

[OldPhiKap]

Roy knew, or kept himself willfully ignorant of what was going on. I don't see how any other conclusion is possible. And I'm a pretty open-minded, see-both-sides kind of guy. (Really).

May his records be forever asterisked.

[ClosetHurleyFan]

http://3qh929iorux3fdpl532k03kg.wpengine.netdna-cdn.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/10/UNC-FINAL-REPORT.pdf

http://www.newsobserver.com/sports/college/acc/unc/unc-now/article122813999.html

Might take you a few months (years?) to review 130+ pages and 730 pages (?) of exhibits of the Wainstein Report and the new and improved NOA (aka AANOA or NOA #3), so be sure you have a few fine comestibles in the fridge so you can sustain yourself over that period of time.

So.....you are telling me these documents, which I have heard varying interpretations of, prove that Roy, as an individual, drove the actions that are being labeled as "cheating"?

In terms of Roy's role that flies in the face of what others have told me.

[OldPhiKap]

So...you are telling me these documents, which I have heard varying interpretations of, prove that Roy, as an individual, drove the actions that are being labeled as "cheating"?

In terms of Roy's role that flies in the face of what others have told me.

Are you seriously suggesting that cheating did not occur? Or are you suggesting that it occurred, but Roy somehow did not know about it?

[Indoor66]

So...you are telling me these documents, which I have heard varying interpretations of, prove that Roy, as an individual, drove the actions that are being labeled as "cheating"?

In terms of Roy's role that flies in the face of what others have told me.

Basketball was involved. He runs basketball. He is imputed to know. He knew and acceded to the activity.

One's head can only go so deep into the sand.

[Troublemaker]

So...you are telling me these documents, which I have heard varying interpretations of, prove that Roy, as an individual, drove the actions that are being labeled as "cheating"?

In terms of Roy's role that flies in the face of what others have told me.

You're going to spend the day after your team wins the title arguing with Duke fans over this stuff? To each his own, I guess.

[AustinDevil]

So....you are telling me these documents, which I have heard varying interpretations of, prove that Roy, as an individual, drove the actions that are being labeled as "cheating"?

In terms of Roy's role that flies in the face of what others have told me.

You demand specifics from others, and then expect to be able to get away with a reference to "what others have told [you]" in a reply? LOL.

[PackMan97]

Roy knew, or kept himself willfully ignorant of what was going on. I don't see how any other conclusion is possible. And I'm a pretty open-minded, see-both-sides kind of guy. (Really).

May his records be forever asterisked.


Roy was paid to graduate players...in fact he recieved bonuses for graduating players. To suggest he had no idea how or why those kids graduating defies common sense.

Roy knew.

[swood1000]

One fun thing to look forward to will be the arguments about the number of championships UNC really has and Roy's real win total, compared to K, but for the totally unjustified and illegal action taken by the NCAA in 2017.

[ClosetHurleyFan]

Are you seriously suggesting that cheating did not occur? Or are you suggesting that it occurred, but Roy somehow did not know about it?

I think things did occur. Absolutely. I think Roy's specific role, what he knew/didn't know and when/whether he should have known and what role he played in changing the approach going forward have been the subject of rampant speculation. I respect a number of folks on this board who are thorough thinkers. But I can assure you I get opinions going in the other direction from folks not on this board who I consider to be thorough thinkers as well. I want to hear people unpack it, who have studied it more than me, without flamebaiting me.

I also happen to think the AFAM department, had over a period of years built itself into a little bit of an untouchable over at UNC by the time this all exploded. The power of that at UNC should not be underestimated. I was at UNC during the early 90s back when the Black Cultural Center concept was hatched and implemented. Merely questioning whether or not the BCC should happen was seriously dangerous territory. Reminds you a bit of the unreceptiveness to different ideas that is rampant on college campuses today. I think that really does lend support to the possibility that this was not some big top down or even mens basketball or football pushed reality. You may not agree, but its not an absurd notion by any stretch.

I also think the NCAA is scared to death to really open Pandora's box here. It doesn't justify what the AFAM department did or what administrators failed to do in better policing its function, but the last thing I think the NCAA wants anyone doing is starting to question the underlying notion of what education athletes get in general for their scholarship and the role that lame or paper classes play in that dynamic throughout the country. Doesn't excuse it at UNC, but it does make the issue very complicated.

Word is that athletes in these particular AFAM classes were to write a 25 page paper. Some confirmed instances of guys not writing these papers themselves (McCants in particular, but geez consider the spoiled brat source there) but is that an across the board reality? Furthermore, lets assume some folks wrote these papers, and the grading criteria is pretty lax. From the standpoint of how much work someone is having to do, how different is that from a student taking a class, that is well known to be an easy class, where you don't have to show up at all, you know ahead of time what questions and topics will be and the test is easy as dog I'm a real wanker for saying this.I'm a real wanker for saying this.I'm a real wanker for saying this.I'm a real wanker for saying this.? Again, how many corners could you go exploring around this topic? And has anyone really confirmed who did and did not write papers?

[ClosetHurleyFan]

Roy was paid to graduate players...in fact he recieved bonuses for graduating players. To suggest he had no idea how or why those kids graduating defies common sense.

Roy knew.

Tell me how you know that and how it defies common sense and if he did know what was his reaction in terms of steps taken.

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

http://3qh929iorux3fdpl532k03kg.wpengine.netdna-cdn.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/10/UNC-FINAL-REPORT.pdf

http://www.newsobserver.com/sports/college/acc/unc/unc-now/article122813999.html

Might take you a few months (years?) to review 130+ pages and 730 pages (?) of exhibits of the Wainstein Report and the new and improved NOA (aka AANOA or NOA #3), so be sure you have a few fine comestibles in the fridge so you can sustain yourself over that period of time.

Yeah, but you know, like other than those 850+ pages of documents, what do you have? Anything anecdotal?

[DukePA]

It was Williams job, as head coach, to know what was going on. If he didn't know; he chose not to know and that is unacceptable.

[richardjackson199]

Why is the front page article talking about vacating UNC's 2017 Natty? 2005 and 2009 I could understand, but 2017? Am I missing something? - I see no possible way that happens.

[ClosetHurleyFan]

You demand specifics from others, and then expect to be able to get away with a reference to "what others have told [you]" in a reply? LOL.

Not demanding anything. I would ask you to be cognizant of your tone. the LOL was an obnoxious cheap shot and I said "what others have told me" in the spirit of brevity. I don't have a reputation with some of the long term guys on the board as one who spouts BS.

I have been told that Roy started asking why so many guys were AFAM majors and started pushing folks to be steered in different directions because he was concerned. I am trying to peal back those representations as much as I am those on this board.

[Jeffrey]

In Roy's defense, UNC's most successful player said this season, “the ceiling is the roof”. It appears taking classes is not easy for some UNC basketball players and their coach needs to make adjustments. I suspect Roy is as clean as Cal. Of course, Cal knows when to run. Run, Roy, run.

[CatDevil]

Tell me how you know that and how it defies common sense and if he did know what was his reaction in terms of steps taken.

I am sure other schools maintain this policy. Apparently it is public knowledge for all to see.

http://www.wral.com/news/local/wral_investigates/story/5922675/

[swood1000]

In terms of Roy's role that flies in the face of what others have told me.

Well damn. Why didn't you come right out and say so at the beginning? That pretty much ends debate on the matter, since the others no doubt really know what they're talking about. Facts and evidence be damned.

[Duke79UNLV77]

“Our track record is pretty doggone good,” Williams told a Charlotte radio station on Aug. 15, 2012. “And our track record has been pretty doggone good for 15 years at Kansas, nine years at North Carolina. And we know how much we emphasize the academic side in the basketball office. We know what our guys are majoring in. We know – every day we’re in touch with those kids. So it’s something, again, that I’m very proud of.”

He has at most 13 scholarship athletes. I don't think he had to worry about Tyler Zeller's academics. He probably would have fewer than 10 at any time he would need to worry about, and even fewer if you focus on stars. He didn't notice that McCants got all A's in classes he never attended, but Ds and Fs in real classes? The same with Peppers in a championship year? 9 or so players from the 2005 team majored in Af-Am. The truth is in the transcripts. Show them. He brought Wayne Walden with him from Kansas. Emails discussed that Roy would have a strong opinion on Walden's replacement. A handful of former football and basketball players have blown the whistle that coaches knew. Hairston was parking different rental cars at the practice facility every week. You think Ole Roy didn't notice that? He may play a country bumpkin on TV, but he's not that dumb.

Also, when he was at Kansas, they had DeShawn Stevenson travel across the country to take the SAT in North Carolina, where his score magically improved by 700! Ole Roy defended him. Stevenson had to take the SAT again. It didn't go so well.

http://thebiglead.com/2015/02/13/did-roy-williams-help-deshawn-stevenson-improve-his-sat-score-by-700-points-in-2000/

To paraphrase Shakespeare, one can smile and smile and still be a Heel.

[devildeac]

Are you seriously suggesting that cheating did not occur? Or are you suggesting that it occurred, but Roy somehow did not know about it?

Sure looks/sounds like it.

#thec*rolinaway

[devildeac]

So...you are telling me these documents, which I have heard varying interpretations of, prove that Roy, as an individual, drove the actions that are being labeled as "cheating"?

In terms of Roy's role that flies in the face of what others have told me.

Anybody reliable/reasonable give you their interpretations of these documents? Maybe Wainstein spent 12-24 months (?) conjuring up all those emails/photos/slides/statements out of thin air to formulate his ~130 page report plus ~730 (?) pages of additional exhibits. Then, the information is so unbelievable that the COI asks the Enforcement Committee to re-issue the AANOA with 5(?) Level 1 violations, including LOIC. Yea, that's the ticket.

[moonpie23]

One fun thing to look forward to will be the arguments about the number of championships UNC really has and Roy's real win total, compared to K, but for the totally unjustified and illegal action taken by the NCAA in 2017.

from your keyboard to the COI

[kexman]

I also think the NCAA is scared to death to really open Pandora's box here. It doesn't justify what the AFAM department did or what administrators failed to do in better policing its function, but the last thing I think the NCAA wants anyone doing is starting to question the underlying notion of what education athletes get in general for their scholarship and the role that lame or paper classes play in that dynamic throughout the country. Doesn't excuse it at UNC, but it does make the issue very complicated.

I think it was on ESPN radio where the host was interviewing J. Williams. She brought up the academic scandal at UNC. He blew it off and said NCAA basketball is a business. 'Calipari just signed a 7 million dollar contract. Basketball is a business and in business corners are always cut. If you look into any program you would see corners being cut'. That may not be a direct quote, but I think fairly accurate. The reporter should have followed up with...if every program does this, what corners were cut for you at Duke? I worry that the unwillingness of Bilas and Williams to say this is wrong suggests that NO ONE wants people sniffing around programs academic credentials. They may not be as blatant as made up classes, but there is probably a well known list of easy classes or profs that are nice to athletes in every athletic department. I'm sure Bilas and Williams have a lot of knowledge about what goes on in athletic departments around the country and at Duke. Some are probably more egregious than others. I find their silence and even tacit endorsement of this troublesome.

[jv001]

I think it was on ESPN radio where the host was interviewing J. Williams. She brought up the academic scandal at UNC. He blew it off and said NCAA basketball is a business. 'Calipari just signed a 7 million dollar contract. Basketball is a business and in business corners are always cut. If you look into any program you would see corners being cut'. That may not be a direct quote, but I think fairly accurate. The reporter should have followed up with...if every program does this, what corners were cut for you at Duke? I worry that the unwillingness of Bilas and Williams to say this is wrong suggests that NO ONE wants people sniffing around programs academic credentials. They may not be as blatant as made up classes, but there is probably a well known list of easy classes or profs that are nice to athletes in every athletic department. I'm sure Bilas and Williams have a lot of knowledge about what goes on in athletic departments around the country and at Duke. Some are probably more egregious than others. I find their silence and even tacit endorsement of this troublesome.

Or it could be Jay is afraid of losing his job at ESPN. His boss is a uncheat grad. GoDuke!

[eddiehaskell]

Or it could be Jay is afraid of losing his job at ESPN. His boss is a uncheat grad. GoDuke!Definitely. Think ESPN wants their employees being completely honest about one of their moneymakers that's currently winning? It's better for business if their commentators just brush it off as a nothingburger. If It involved a no-name school we'd still be hearing about the virtues of "The Carolina Way".

[AustinDevil]

Not demanding anything. I would ask you to be cognizant of your tone. the LOL was an obnoxious cheap shot and I said "what others have told me" in the spirit of brevity. I don't have a reputation with some of the long term guys on the board as one who spouts BS.

I have been told that Roy started asking why so many guys were AFAM majors and started pushing folks to be steered in different directions because he was concerned. I am trying to peal back those representations as much as I am those on this board.

"How exactly do you know that Roy cheated? Define cheat. Lets talk specifics here." You seem not to view this curt post as a demand, but it's a curt, blunt set of three interrogatories pushing for exactitude and specificity. You then followed it up with one of the breeziest and broadest of "I've heard" conclusory statements of which I have ever been cognizant. Peal away or peel away, but I really don't regret laughing. Cheers!

[swood1000]

So...you are telling me these documents, which I have heard varying interpretations of, prove that Roy, as an individual, drove the actions that are being labeled as "cheating"?

In terms of Roy's role that flies in the face of what others have told me.

The reason that this discussion is pointless is that there is a fundamental difference as to the meaning of the word "cheat." Roy's defenders typically don't deny the paper classes (that would be difficult to do). When confronted with the fact that while student-athletes made up 4% of the student body they made up 48% of the paper class enrollments, they respond that this shows that it wasn't limited to athletes and so there is nothing fundamentally amiss. The problem is similar to arguing about ethics with a person who is amoral. People just talk past each other. It's true that Roy didn't use email and kept his fingerprints off this whole thing but Walden's clear connection leaves no question about Roy's knowledge. Though there won't be any sanctions directly against Roy, he's going to take a hit indirectly via a reduction in his win total as well as in the notoriety of having been at the helm during this whole thing. When the discussion comes around to the successful yet shady coaches, he'll be mentioned. We'll all just have to wait and see what the COI says.

[Stray Gator]

So...you are telling me these documents, which I have heard varying interpretations of, prove that Roy, as an individual, drove the actions that are being labeled as "cheating"?

In terms of Roy's role that flies in the face of what others have told me.

I don't recall anyone here stating or suggesting that Roy "as an individual, drove the actions that are being labelled as 'cheating'"; by recasting the charge in those terms, however, you have materially changed the question and thereby mischaracterized the crucial issue. Based on your posting history in this forum, it's fair to assume that your doing so was simply an innocent, inadvertent misjudgment in word selection, and not a deliberate attempt to employ some clever semantical sleight of hand to divert attention from the real issue and reframe it in a way that would make the position of UNC and its supporters more easily defensible. I suspect that it just reflects the influence on your perspective of "what others have told you," because a common thread in the rationale of UNC supporters has been the argument that if the basketball coaches weren't personally involved in creating and perpetuating the fraudulent classes scheme, then the basketball program should not be subject to any punishment.

The problem with that approach, positing that the basketball program should not be penalized absent proof of personal involvement by the coaches, is that it conveniently ignores what the law refers to as the "fruit of the poisonous tree" principle. In short, for purposes of determining whether sanctions against the basketball program are warranted, the issue is not whether Roy or anyone else in the basketball program "drove" the fraudulent classes scheme, or even whether they knew about it. The issue, from the perspective of the NCAA and other members, is whether the basketball program improperly benefited from the wrongdoing.

In this case, UNC has admitted that the "paper classes" scheme constituted academic fraud, so the wrongdoing has been conclusively established. The only remaining question of any relevance, then, is whether the UNC basketball program improperly benefited from that wrongdoing. While I don't profess to have reviewed the entire Wainstein Report and all of its exhibits, including records that are not available to the public, if there is sufficient evidence to support a finding that some UNC basketball players would not have been able to remain academically eligible to compete without having received credit that they did not legitimately earn for one or more of the fraudulent classes, then the improper benefit is indisputable. In fact, such evidence would prove not only that the program improperly benefited by obtaining an unfair competitive advantage, but also that Roy Williams personally benefited in the form of undeserved monetary bonuses and professional awards.

Whether Roy should be required to forfeit those benefits is a separate question, the answer to which might arguably be made to rest on proof of his personal involvement in the fraud. But the issue of whether the UNC basketball program deserves to be sanctioned does not, or certainly should not, depend on what Roy did, or what he knew. Whatever wins and titles and honors the UNC basketball team accumulated while using players who would not have been eligible but for the fraudulent classes are benefits that were procured through improper means -- fruit of the poisonous tree. To allow UNC to retain those improper benefits would be patently unjust, because it would, in effect, reward more than two decades of cheating.

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

I don't recall anyone here stating or suggesting that Roy "as an individual, drove the actions that are being labelled as 'cheating'"; by recasting the charge in those terms, however, you have materially changed the question and thereby mischaracterized the crucial issue. Based on your posting history in this forum, it's fair to assume that your doing so was simply an innocent, inadvertent misjudgment in word selection, and not a deliberate attempt to employ some clever semantical sleight of hand to divert attention from the real issue and reframe it in a way that would make the position of UNC and its supporters more easily defensible. I suspect that it just reflects the influence on your perspective of "what others have told you," because a common thread in the rationale of UNC supporters has been the argument that if the basketball coaches weren't personally involved in creating and perpetuating the fraudulent classes scheme, then the basketball program should not be subject to any punishment.

The problem with that approach, positing that the basketball program should not be penalized absent proof of personal involvement by the coaches, is that it conveniently ignores what the law refers to as the "fruit of the poisonous tree" principle. In short, for purposes of determining whether sanctions against the basketball program are warranted, the issue is not whether Roy or anyone else in the basketball program "drove" the fraudulent classes scheme, or even whether they knew about it. The issue, from the perspective of the NCAA and other members, is whether the basketball program improperly benefited from the wrongdoing.

In this case, UNC has admitted that the "paper classes" scheme constituted academic fraud, so the wrongdoing has been conclusively established. The only remaining question of any relevance, then, is whether the UNC basketball program improperly benefited from that wrongdoing. While I don't profess to have reviewed the entire Wainstein Report and all of its exhibits, including records that are not available to the public, if there is sufficient evidence to support a finding that some UNC basketball players would not have been able to remain academically eligible to compete without having received credit that they did not legitimately earn for one or more of the fraudulent classes, then the improper benefit is indisputable. In fact, such evidence would prove not only that the program improperly benefited by obtaining an unfair competitive advantage, but also that Roy Williams personally benefited in the form of undeserved monetary bonuses and professional awards.

Whether Roy should be required to forfeit those benefits is a separate question, the answer to which might arguably be made to rest on proof of his personal involvement in the fraud. But the issue of whether the UNC basketball program deserves to be sanctioned does not, or certainly should not, depend on what Roy did, or what he knew. Whatever wins and titles and honors the UNC basketball team accumulated while using players who would not have been eligible but for the fraudulent classes are benefits that were procured through improper means -- fruit of the poisonous tree. To allow UNC to retain those improper benefits would be patently unjust, because it would, in effect, reward more than two decades of cheating.

..something something spread comments something something

[Indoor66]

I don't recall anyone here stating or suggesting that Roy "as an individual, drove the actions that are being labelled as 'cheating'"; by recasting the charge in those terms, however, you have materially changed the question and thereby mischaracterized the crucial issue. Based on your posting history in this forum, it's fair to assume that your doing so was simply an innocent, inadvertent misjudgment in word selection, and not a deliberate attempt to employ some clever semantical sleight of hand to divert attention from the real issue and reframe it in a way that would make the position of UNC and its supporters more easily defensible. I suspect that it just reflects the influence on your perspective of "what others have told you," because a common thread in the rationale of UNC supporters has been the argument that if the basketball coaches weren't personally involved in creating and perpetuating the fraudulent classes scheme, then the basketball program should not be subject to any punishment.

The problem with that approach, positing that the basketball program should not be penalized absent proof of personal involvement by the coaches, is that it conveniently ignores what the law refers to as the "fruit of the poisonous tree" principle. In short, for purposes of determining whether sanctions against the basketball program are warranted, the issue is not whether Roy or anyone else in the basketball program "drove" the fraudulent classes scheme, or even whether they knew about it. The issue, from the perspective of the NCAA and other members, is whether the basketball program improperly benefited from the wrongdoing.

In this case, UNC has admitted that the "paper classes" scheme constituted academic fraud, so the wrongdoing has been conclusively established. The only remaining question of any relevance, then, is whether the UNC basketball program improperly benefited from that wrongdoing. While I don't profess to have reviewed the entire Wainstein Report and all of its exhibits, including records that are not available to the public, if there is sufficient evidence to support a finding that some UNC basketball players would not have been able to remain academically eligible to compete without having received credit that they did not legitimately earn for one or more of the fraudulent classes, then the improper benefit is indisputable. In fact, such evidence would prove not only that the program improperly benefited by obtaining an unfair competitive advantage, but also that Roy Williams personally benefited in the form of undeserved monetary bonuses and professional awards.

Whether Roy should be required to forfeit those benefits is a separate question, the answer to which might arguably be made to rest on proof of his personal involvement in the fraud. But the issue of whether the UNC basketball program deserves to be sanctioned does not, or certainly should not, depend on what Roy did, or what he knew. Whatever wins and titles and honors the UNC basketball team accumulated while using players who would not have been eligible but for the fraudulent classes are benefits that were procured through improper means -- fruit of the poisonous tree. To allow UNC to retain those improper benefits would be patently unjust, because it would, in effect, reward more than two decades of cheating.

He knew OR SHOULD HAVE KNOWN. That point is THE basis for the Lack Of Institutional Control. The head coaches of all sports are held to the "knew or should have known" standard.

[Nugget]

One fun thing to look forward to will be the arguments about the number of championships UNC really has and Roy's real win total, compared to K, but for the totally unjustified and illegal action taken by the NCAA in 2017.

Is this really on the table? It seems to me that, given what is charged in the most recent NOA, the "most" that could happen to UNC is: (i) loss of one or both of the 2005 and 2009 banners based on the past scope of the cheating and (ii) substantial go-forward probation/monetary penalties/loss of scholarships and/or postseason bans.

Doesn't everyone agree that the cheating stopped before anyone on the current team enrolled in school? If not, I think they've skated with respect to keeping this year's title, at the cost of whatever shred of dignity and integrity they may have had left.

[MartyClark]

I have to reluctantly say that Roy has done a great job the past two years. He is not the master of the time out but he plays a lot of guys and his teams have gotten better, I think, as the season develops.

I'm not a Duke grad but have avidly followed them for 25+ years. I have not lived in Carolina so my experience with bad Carolina fans is largely limited to trolling IC. It's easy to hate everybody posting on IC and I do. ( I used to represent the now extinct Durham Life Insurance Company on cases filed in Colorado and generally liked attorneys at the Durham law firm who were largely Carolina fans)

I don't disagree with any of you have expressed strong opinions about the fake classes and cheating.

Roy is in the conversation for a top 5, all time college coach.

[Dr. Rosenrosen]

Roy is in the conversation for a top 5, all time college coach.
And top 3 for all time biggest cheaters.

[billy]

Doesn't everyone agree that the cheating stopped before anyone on the current team enrolled in school?

I don't, I just think they shifted tactics, which, according to UNC documents, were still in effect at least as late as 2013:

7322

7323

7325

7326

(All from @TedTatos on Twitter)

[Rich]

I don't recall anyone here stating or suggesting that Roy "as an individual, drove the actions that are being labelled as 'cheating'"; by recasting the charge in those terms, however, you have materially changed the question and thereby mischaracterized the crucial issue. Based on your posting history in this forum, it's fair to assume that your doing so was simply an innocent, inadvertent misjudgment in word selection, and not a deliberate attempt to employ some clever semantical sleight of hand to divert attention from the real issue and reframe it in a way that would make the position of UNC and its supporters more easily defensible. I suspect that it just reflects the influence on your perspective of "what others have told you," because a common thread in the rationale of UNC supporters has been the argument that if the basketball coaches weren't personally involved in creating and perpetuating the fraudulent classes scheme, then the basketball program should not be subject to any punishment.

The problem with that approach, positing that the basketball program should not be penalized absent proof of personal involvement by the coaches, is that it conveniently ignores what the law refers to as the "fruit of the poisonous tree" principle. In short, for purposes of determining whether sanctions against the basketball program are warranted, the issue is not whether Roy or anyone else in the basketball program "drove" the fraudulent classes scheme, or even whether they knew about it. The issue, from the perspective of the NCAA and other members, is whether the basketball program improperly benefited from the wrongdoing.

In this case, UNC has admitted that the "paper classes" scheme constituted academic fraud, so the wrongdoing has been conclusively established. The only remaining question of any relevance, then, is whether the UNC basketball program improperly benefited from that wrongdoing. While I don't profess to have reviewed the entire Wainstein Report and all of its exhibits, including records that are not available to the public, if there is sufficient evidence to support a finding that some UNC basketball players would not have been able to remain academically eligible to compete without having received credit that they did not legitimately earn for one or more of the fraudulent classes, then the improper benefit is indisputable. In fact, such evidence would prove not only that the program improperly benefited by obtaining an unfair competitive advantage, but also that Roy Williams personally benefited in the form of undeserved monetary bonuses and professional awards.

Whether Roy should be required to forfeit those benefits is a separate question, the answer to which might arguably be made to rest on proof of his personal involvement in the fraud. But the issue of whether the UNC basketball program deserves to be sanctioned does not, or certainly should not, depend on what Roy did, or what he knew. Whatever wins and titles and honors the UNC basketball team accumulated while using players who would not have been eligible but for the fraudulent classes are benefits that were procured through improper means -- fruit of the poisonous tree. To allow UNC to retain those improper benefits would be patently unjust, because it would, in effect, reward more than two decades of cheating.

Stray's responses to posts downplaying aspects of the UNC scandal over the past few years should be organized and placed on the top of this Board as a sticky!

[JimBD]

Doesn't everyone agree that the cheating stopped before anyone on the current team enrolled in school?

In my opinion, it doesn't matter. There have been many cases in which schools and current athletes have been penalized for previous years' infractions. If the NCAA had been doing its job on a timely basis, UNC would have already been put on probation and would not have been allowed to participate in this year's NCAA Tournament.

[DarkstarWahoo]

Cheating/AFAM aside, ranking Roy is an interesting exercise because he served as Dean Smith's right-hand man for so long. Most of the other all-time greats had head coaching jobs by their early 30s. Denny Crum is probably the closest comparison.

On the other hand, Dean used his influence to get Roy a blue-blood job with the defending national champions when he had never been a head coach before. K, Knight and Bill Self come to mind as guys who started their coaching careers at a younger age, but much closer to the bottom at schools where it was much harder to win. So it probably washes out about even.

If you put a gun to my head, the top 2 have to be K and Wooden in some order (I'd put K first), followed by some combination of Pitino, Dean, Knight, Roy and Jim Calhoun. You have to rank Rupp somewhere sometime, but it's really hard to look past the fact that he was competing in what was essentially a high school sport where a huge number of the best players weren't allowed to play.

[bigeastfan]

I'm a die-hard Tarheels fan, having obtained two degrees there, but I don't see how one can say Roy has surpassed or even is equal to Coach K. Coach K has 5 titles to Roy's 3 and 13 final four appearances to Roy's 9. Coach K also has several Olympic gold medals while Roy has none.

In the 1980s and 1990s one could say UNC players did better in the NBA than Duke players. But since 2000 you can't really make that argument anymore. Roy wasn't with UNC in the 1980s and 1990s as the head coach anyway.

One edge I might give to Roy is on developing the basketball skills of his players. But it's hard to say since Coach K is generally recruiting more talented players.

[kshepinthehouse]

I'm a die-hard Tarheels fan, having obtained two degrees there, but I don't see how one can say Roy has surpassed or even is equal to Coach K. Coach K has 5 titles to Roy's 3 and 13 final four appearances to Roy's 9. Coach K also has several Olympic gold medals while Roy has none.

In the 1980s and 1990s one could say UNC players did better in the NBA than Duke players. But since 2000 you can't really make that argument anymore. Roy wasn't with UNC in the 1980s and 1990s as the head coach anyway.

One edge I might give to Roy is on developing the basketball skills of his players. But it's hard to say since Coach K is generally recruiting more talented players.

Roy is beating K in the number of tainted national championships. Roy has 3 tainted ones K has zero.