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Troublemaker
03-20-2017, 06:15 PM
Put those pieces of news here. For example...

Tyler Lydon is gone and will sign with an agent. (http://dailyorange.com/2017/03/tyler-lydon-reportedly-leaving-syracuse-and-declaring-for-the-nba-draft/)

pfrduke
03-20-2017, 06:17 PM
Tyler Lydon is gone and will sign with an agent. (http://dailyorange.com/2017/03/tyler-lydon-reportedly-leaving-syracuse-and-declaring-for-the-nba-draft/)

Not the warm hug or fare thee well from coach on the way out the door. I love this thread every year - it's at least a couple dozen "wait, that guy thinks he's going to get drafted?!?" over the course of the next few weeks. My bet is Lydon is going to have to try the UFA route.

kAzE
03-20-2017, 06:24 PM
Not the warm hug or fare thee well from coach on the way out the door. I love this thread every year - it's at least a couple dozen "wait, that guy thinks he's going to get drafted?!?" over the course of the next few weeks. My bet is Lydon is going to have to try the UFA route.

He's projected as a first rounder on DraftExpress. I doubt he's going undrafted . . .

Also, everyone knew this already, but the sake of being complete, Markelle Fultz already declared, and is projected by many to be the #1 overall pick. I'll still take Lonzo over him, though. Give me the guy who makes everyone better.

bob blue devil
03-20-2017, 06:34 PM
Not the warm hug or fare thee well from coach on the way out the door. I love this thread every year - it's at least a couple dozen "wait, that guy thinks he's going to get drafted?!?" over the course of the next few weeks. My bet is Lydon is going to have to try the UFA route.

i wish jim would've done the classy thing and just wish him well as he pursues his dream. maybe playing at syracuse in exchange for an education isn't all that appealing to him and any pro option is preferable.

CDu
03-20-2017, 08:50 PM
He's projected as a first rounder on DraftExpress. I doubt he's going undrafted . . .

Also, everyone knew this already, but the sake of being complete, Markelle Fultz already declared, and is projected by many to be the #1 overall pick. I'll still take Lonzo over him, though. Give me the guy who makes everyone better.

The analytics guys REALLY liked Lydon last year. But I suspect that was a bit of the old "stats not telling the full story." He is a good shooter and post scorer, but he isn't terribly athletic, is really weak, and has to prove he can play defense (the zone masks deficiencies). He probably translates pretty well as a second-unit shooting specialist as a stretch-4. Back end of the first round for a Ryan Anderson/Nikola Mirotic clone seems about right.

Olympic Fan
03-21-2017, 02:04 PM
This news is about a week old, but just to consolidate it in this thread, N.C. State freshman Omar Yurtseven has declared for the draft:

http://www.backingthepack.com/nc-state-basketball/2017/3/14/14928158/omer-yurtseven-nba-draft-nc-state-wolfpack-basketball

As of now, he is NOT hiring an agent. There is a good chance he pulls out of the draft. A year ago, 162 players declared early, but 91 ultimately withdrew their names, including such ACC guys as Justin Jackson, Jaron Blossomgame, BeeJay Anya and Malik Abu.

Here's a good site for keeping up with the latest news:

https://www.hoopsrumors.com/2017/03/2017-nba-draft-early-entrants-list.html

gam7
03-21-2017, 02:30 PM
Draftexpress has a very helpful early entry/test the waters list (http://www.draftexpress.com/nba-draft-early-entry-list), usually with a link to the source of the information.

In addition to the names mentioned above, Jawun Evans from Oklahoma State is in - projected late first round. Interesting to note that projected Top 10 pick Robert Williams from Texas A&M is strongly leaning towards coming back for his sophomore year, according Woj. He's now a projected Top 5 pick in draftexpress's 2018 mock.

Troublemaker
03-21-2017, 02:36 PM
It's interesting to me that John Collins hasn't declared yet. I'm guessing it will come soon.

Collins and Donovan Mitchell are the two major non-Duke ACC decisions.

CDu
03-21-2017, 03:09 PM
It's interesting to me that John Collins hasn't declared yet. I'm guessing it will come soon.

Collins and Donovan Mitchell are the two major non-Duke ACC decisions.

I would consider Justin Jackson a pretty significant non-Duke ACC decision. To a lesser degree (increasing in possibility the deeper UNC goes in the tournament) Berry.

Bacon and Isaacs are pretty important too.

English
03-21-2017, 03:10 PM
It's interesting to me that John Collins hasn't declared yet. I'm guessing it will come soon.

Collins and Donovan Mitchell are the two major non-Duke ACC decisions.

Is this because Justin Jackson's isn't so much a decision as a foregone conclusion? My list of major non-Duke decisions would include that guy.

kAzE
03-21-2017, 03:12 PM
I would consider Justin Jackson a pretty significant non-Duke ACC decision. To a lesser degree (increasing in possibility the deeper UNC goes in the tournament) Berry.

Bacon and Isaacs are pretty important too.

Jackson would have to be insane not to leave this year. He's 22, his draft stock has nowhere to go but down. I think he's gone regardless of what happens to UNC in the tournament, or whatever voodoo magic Roy uses to keep guys in Chapel Hill.

Berry probably stays.

English
03-21-2017, 03:14 PM
Jackson would have to be insane not to leave this year. I think he's gone regardless of what happens to UNC in the tournament, or whatever voodoo magic Roy uses to keep guys in Chapel Hill.

Per Evan Daniels, Robert Williams (TAMU) is returning next season. Projected lottery pick prior to this decision.

CDu
03-21-2017, 03:26 PM
Jackson would have to be insane not to leave this year. He's 22, his draft stock has nowhere to go but down. I think he's gone regardless of what happens to UNC in the tournament, or whatever voodoo magic Roy uses to keep guys in Chapel Hill.

Berry probably stays.

I tend to agree. But the decision of both is still pretty important. If both return, UNC will be very good again. If both leave, UNC is likely in for a down year. If Jackson goes and Berry stays, the outlook is a little less clear.

English
03-21-2017, 03:48 PM
Freshman Univ of Texas 5, Jarrett Allen, will test the NBA Draft waters...no agent.

arnie
03-21-2017, 05:47 PM
Jackson would have to be insane not to leave this year. He's 22, his draft stock has nowhere to go but down. I think he's gone regardless of what happens to UNC in the tournament, or whatever voodoo magic Roy uses to keep guys in Chapel Hill.

Berry probably stays.

I hear Justin Jackson is staying. Roy signed him up for pie eating contests in the fall so he can develop into a Sean May-like pro.

Olympic Fan
03-21-2017, 07:37 PM
A bunch of ACC guys to watch:

I would break them down this way:

Gone:
Tyler Lydon, Syracuse

Will probably go (* almost certain to go:

*Jayson Tatum, Duke
*Dennis Smith, N.C. Stat
*Jonathan Isaac, Florida State
*Justin Jackson, UNC
Luke Kennard, Duke
Grayson Allen, Duke
Harry Giles, Duke
John Collins, Wake Forest
Dwayne Bacon, FSU
Donovan Mitchell, Louisville

Could also go (will at least test the waters):
Omar Yurtseven, N.C. State
Bonzie Colson, Notre Dame
Tony Bradley, UNC
Marques Bolden, Duke
Abdul-Malik Abu, N.C. State
Xavier Rathan-Mayes, Florida State
Bryant Crawford, Wake Forest
Joel Berry, UNC
Frank Jackson, Duke

Some of them would be stupid decisions, but we see kids make stupid decisions every spring

I'd be willing to bet that at least 8 of the 10 guys on the first list go pro ... and three of the guys on the second list. There will be one or tw guy not listed, who will put their names on the draft list (at least temporarily)

arnie
03-21-2017, 07:48 PM
A bunch of ACC guys to watch:

I would break them down this way:

Gone:
Tyler Lydon, Syracuse

Will probably go (* almost certain to go:

*Jayson Tatum, Duke
*Dennis Smith, N.C. Stat
*Jonathan Isaac, Florida State
*Justin Jackson, UNC
Luke Kennard, Duke
Grayson Allen, Duke
Harry Giles, Duke
John Collins, Wake Forest
Dwayne Bacon, FSU
Donovan Mitchell, Louisville

Could also go (will at least test the waters):
Omar Yurtseven, N.C. State
Bonzie Colson, Notre Dame
Tony Bradley, UNC
Marques Bolden, Duke
Abdul-Malik Abu, N.C. State
Xavier Rathan-Mayes, Florida State
Bryant Crawford, Wake Forest
Joel Berry, UNC
Frank Jackson, Duke

Some of them would be stupid decisions, but we see kids make stupid decisions every spring

I'd be willing to bet that at least 8 of the 10 guys on the first list go pro ... and three of the guys on the second list. There will be one or tw guy not listed, who will put their names on the draft list (at least temporarily)

So if every Duke player you listed goes pro, our starting lineup next year would be a bunch of freshmen or grad transfers, Jeter if healthy and ???. Best that we don't face this.

Newton_14
03-21-2017, 09:04 PM
A bunch of ACC guys to watch:

I would break them down this way:

Gone:
Tyler Lydon, Syracuse

Will probably go (* almost certain to go:

*Jayson Tatum, Duke
*Dennis Smith, N.C. Stat
*Jonathan Isaac, Florida State
*Justin Jackson, UNC
Luke Kennard, Duke
Grayson Allen, Duke
Harry Giles, Duke
John Collins, Wake Forest
Dwayne Bacon, FSU
Donovan Mitchell, Louisville

Could also go (will at least test the waters):
Omar Yurtseven, N.C. State
Bonzie Colson, Notre Dame
Tony Bradley, UNC
Marques Bolden, Duke
Abdul-Malik Abu, N.C. State
Xavier Rathan-Mayes, Florida State
Bryant Crawford, Wake Forest
Joel Berry, UNC
Frank Jackson, Duke

Some of them would be stupid decisions, but we see kids make stupid decisions every spring

I'd be willing to bet that at least 8 of the 10 guys on the first list go pro ... and three of the guys on the second list. There will be one or tw guy not listed, who will put their names on the draft list (at least temporarily)

Oly, part of my post is a rant, none of which is directed at you. Yours was just the best post so far to reply too. I fully agree with you on the stupid decisions and that's what my rant will be on...

I'm in the minority for sure (and will be labeled as nuts for certain) but I'm not convinced any of Kennard, Allen, Giles, and Bolden will go. Out of the 4 I would put Giles as the most likely, but in my opinion he has no business going and NBA teams have no business drafting him. I love the kid but he has in no way shown that he can make it all the way back to the player he used to be. I think it would be much smarter for him to come back and spend another year rehabbing and developing his mental and physical abilities. If he is to be the player he used to be, he could play his way right back into a Top 3 Pick next year. I assume everyone will push him out the door like they do every other kid with even a hint of talent though.

Bolden needs a lot of development just to become a solid ACC Player. Anyone advising him to leave for the NBA does not really care about him and certainly doesn't have his best interests in mind.

Allen has lost all of his draft potential and needs to come back to earn it back. He is still not fully healthy which will only hurt him even more at the evaluations.

Kennard is the most established player of them all at this point, but he is pretty much on record as saying he expected to be an off the bench role player this past season, which means he was certainly not planning to be a 1 and done or 2 and done player and most likely came in expecting to play 3 or all 4 years. He certainly has a lot of areas where he needs to improve with defense being at the top of that list. But yet again, all the armchair QB's are screaming go go go Luke which maybe/possibly is changing his own personal viewpoint.


I'm just sick of it all. People rush these kids (like Bolden which is absurd, and Kennard) out of school and a very large percentage of the guys that give up their college careers and legacies, end up as journeyman NBA players at best and out of the league all together in a lot of cases. All in the name of the almighty dollar which most of them end up blowing anyway. There is more to life than money. Way more. Far more. I will honestly be glad when the bubble bursts and it all comes crashing down. The Major League Baseball rule should be implemented for Basketball. Go into the draft and/or D League right out of High School or go to College for 3 years. That would be much better than the mess we have now, but there is just too much greed involved for the powers that be to institute that model.

Rant over...

Everyone back to pushing non-ready players out the door....

westwall
03-21-2017, 09:31 PM
I'm in the minority for sure (and will be labeled as nuts for certain) but I'm not convinced any of Kennard, Allen, Giles, and Bolden will go. Out of the 4 I would put Giles as the most likely, but in my opinion he has no business going and NBA teams have no business drafting him. I love the kid but he has in no way shown that he can make it all the way back to the player he used to be. I think it would be much smarter for him to come back and spend another year rehabbing and developing his mental and physical abilities. If he is to be the player he used to be, he could play his way right back into a Top 3 Pick next year. I assume everyone will push him out the door like they do every other kid with even a hint of talent though.

************

I'm just sick of it all. People rush these kids (like Bolden which is absurd, and Kennard) out of school and a very large percentage of the guys that give up their college careers and legacies, end up as journeyman NBA players at best and out of the league all together in a lot of cases. All in the name of the almighty dollar which most of them end up blowing anyway. There is more to life than money. Way more. Far more. I will honestly be glad when the bubble bursts and it all comes crashing down. The Major League Baseball rule should be implemented for Basketball. Go into the draft and/or D League right out of High School or go to College for 3 years. That would be much better than the mess we have now, but there is just too much greed involved for the powers that be to institute that model.

Rant over...

Everyone back to pushing non-ready players out the door...


Best rant so far! Anyone else??

Troublemaker
03-21-2017, 09:48 PM
I would consider Justin Jackson a pretty significant non-Duke ACC decision. To a lesser degree (increasing in possibility the deeper UNC goes in the tournament) Berry.

Bacon and Isaacs are pretty important too.


Is this because Justin Jackson's isn't so much a decision as a foregone conclusion? My list of major non-Duke decisions would include that guy.

Yes, I'd already mentally counted Justin Jackson as gone. Same for Isaacs. Perhaps I shouldn't do that though, so I understand including them on a list.

CDu
03-21-2017, 10:04 PM
Yes, I'd already mentally counted Justin Jackson as gone. Same for Isaacs. Perhaps I shouldn't do that though, so I understand including them on a list.

I would love to assume Jackson is leaving UNC. But I have been burned before. I will consider him an uncertain until/if he declares.

Ultrarunner
03-21-2017, 10:14 PM
Oly, part of my post is a rant, none of which is directed at you. Yours was just the best post so far to reply too. I fully agree with you on the stupid decisions and that's what my rant will be on...

I'm in the minority for sure (and will be labeled as nuts for certain) but I'm not convinced any of Kennard, Allen, Giles, and Bolden will go. Out of the 4 I would put Giles as the most likely, but in my opinion he has no business going and NBA teams have no business drafting him. I love the kid but he has in no way shown that he can make it all the way back to the player he used to be. I think it would be much smarter for him to come back and spend another year rehabbing and developing his mental and physical abilities. If he is to be the player he used to be, he could play his way right back into a Top 3 Pick next year. I assume everyone will push him out the door like they do every other kid with even a hint of talent though.

Bolden needs a lot of development just to become a solid ACC Player. Anyone advising him to leave for the NBA does not really care about him and certainly doesn't have his best interests in mind.

Allen has lost all of his draft potential and needs to come back to earn it back. He is still not fully healthy which will only hurt him even more at the evaluations.

Kennard is the most established player of them all at this point, but he is pretty much on record as saying he expected to be an off the bench role player this past season, which means he was certainly not planning to be a 1 and done or 2 and done player and most likely came in expecting to play 3 or all 4 years. He certainly has a lot of areas where he needs to improve with defense being at the top of that list. But yet again, all the armchair QB's are screaming go go go Luke which maybe/possibly is changing his own personal viewpoint.


I'm just sick of it all. People rush these kids (like Bolden which is absurd, and Kennard) out of school and a very large percentage of the guys that give up their college careers and legacies, end up as journeyman NBA players at best and out of the league all together in a lot of cases. All in the name of the almighty dollar which most of them end up blowing anyway. There is more to life than money. Way more. Far more. I will honestly be glad when the bubble bursts and it all comes crashing down. The Major League Baseball rule should be implemented for Basketball. Go into the draft and/or D League right out of High School or go to College for 3 years. That would be much better than the mess we have now, but there is just too much greed involved for the powers that be to institute that model.

Rant over...

Everyone back to pushing non-ready players out the door...

Drat! Epic rant that deserves major sporks and I get the spread-it-around pop-up.

Much to agree with. All of them should test the waters and get feedback from the NBA folks on what their weaknesses are at the next level. That said, Bolden should come back, as should Luke, each for development. Grayson I'm ambivalent on. I can make the case either way but can't explain why he should want to put up with the nastiness another season. Harry? Again, I'm ambivalent. I think his body needs more time to heal and strengthen, his game needs to mature. But, if someone tosses a couple of million dollars his way, it's insurance for life if the knees don't hold.


Based on Oly's #6 post, 70+ college players declared early and stayed in the draft last year. That's double the number of draft positions available. Most of these young men are not comparable to Jayson. They would do well to stay in school, hone their skills, and get an education.

RPS
03-21-2017, 10:19 PM
I'm just sick of it all. People rush these kids (like Bolden which is absurd, and Kennard) out of school and a very large percentage of the guys that give up their college careers and legacies, end up as journeyman NBA players at best and out of the league all together in a lot of cases. All in the name of the almighty dollar which most of them end up blowing anyway. There is more to life than money. Way more. Far more. I will honestly be glad when the bubble bursts and it all comes crashing down. The Major League Baseball rule should be implemented for Basketball. Go into the draft and/or D League right out of High School or go to College for 3 years. That would be much better than the mess we have now, but there is just too much greed involved for the powers that be to institute that model.
The key problem (it seems to me) is the need for players to get off their rookie contracts to get "real" money (if they can earn it). Every year a player stays in school is thus a peak earning year lost (given the typical career length). Plus, it makes it harder to get the big money since older players don't as readily get the "potential pass." If I were in charge, I'd propose starting the "clock" for contract purposes after one year out of high school and run it whether the player stays in college or not. That way, a player who stays four years in college can negotiate for big money and forfeits "only" rookie contract money by staying in school. Pursuant to that paradigm, the incentive to go would be dramatically lower. A player who stayed in this set-up is still giving up money but a lot less and the NBA should get better prepared players since more will likely stay.

gam7
03-21-2017, 10:21 PM
Bacon and Isaacs are pretty important too.


Yes, I'd already mentally counted Justin Jackson as gone. Same for Isaacs.

Ok, I'll be that guy - it is Isaac. As a person with a last name that an inordinate number of people add an "s" to when saying or spelling it, this one hits a bit close to home. I know how you feel, Jonathan!

And while I'm on a roll, I've noticed that almost every front page article over the last week that mentions Bolden (both Al Featherston and jk) has been spelling his first name "Marquise". I've seen it about four different times. Marques, guys.

ncexnyc
03-21-2017, 11:48 PM
Drat! Epic rant that deserves major sporks and I get the spread-it-around pop-up.

Much to agree with. All of them should test the waters and get feedback from the NBA folks on what their weaknesses are at the next level. That said, Bolden should come back, as should Luke, each for development. Grayson I'm ambivalent on. I can make the case either way but can't explain why he should want to put up with the nastiness another season. Harry? Again, I'm ambivalent. I think his body needs more time to heal and strengthen, his game needs to mature. But, if someone tosses a couple of million dollars his way, it's insurance for life if the knees don't hold.


Based on Oly's #6 post, 70+ college players declared early and stayed in the draft last year. That's double the number of draft positions available. Most of these young men are not comparable to Jayson. They would do well to stay in school, hone their skills, and get an education.

When you say, "get an education," you wouldn't be suggesting these kids stick around and get a degree like they give away at UNC would you?:D

Olympic Fan
03-22-2017, 12:08 AM
Everyone back to pushing non-ready players out the door...

Good rant, but this is the part I don't understand.

WE are not "pushing" anybody out the door, merely observing a process that is the way of the world. Or trying to observe it objectively.

A large percentage of today's big-time college basketball players are merely using college basketball as a stepping stone to the pros -- not even the NBA ... some would rather get paid to play in Europe or the NBADL than linger in college.

Last year, the NBA drafted 60 players in two rounds -- and 92 underclassmen gave up their college eligibility to make themselves eligible for the draft. With seniors and foreign pros filling several draft slots, that means that more than half essentially made stupid decisions. That doesn't count he 70 or so other underclassmen who declared for the draft, but withdrew by the deadline.

I think every kid should declare for the draft every year. If he's not invited to the NBA developmental camp, then he should return to college. If he is invite to the camp, then go, participate, get as much feedback as possible, then make an informed decision whether to stay in the draft or return top college.

Personally, I'm sorry so many kids are in such a hurry to get to the NBA. I love college basketball and can't stand the NBA game.

If I could convince Tatum, Kennard, Giles and Allen to stay at Duke, I'd be a happy man.

But ranting about the system now in place doesn't do anybody any good. It's not like our opinions have any influence on whether these guys stay or go.

I'm sorry that our speculation bothers you ... all I can say is don't click on thread. It's going to happen whether we talk about t or not.

Ultrarunner
03-22-2017, 12:14 AM
When you say, "get an education," you wouldn't be suggesting these kids stick around and get a degree like they give away at UNC would you?:D

You know, tried dancing around that for the broader point, but the fact that a university thought it acceptable to cheat its students angers me more than I can tell you.

Newton_14
03-22-2017, 12:24 AM
Good rant, but this is the part I don't understand.

WE are not "pushing" anybody out the door, merely observing a process that is the way of the world. Or trying to observe it objectively.

A large percentage of today's big-time college basketball players are merely using college basketball as a stepping stone to the pros -- not even the NBA ... some would rather get paid to play in Europe or the NBADL than linger in college.

Last year, the NBA drafted 60 players in two rounds -- and 92 underclassmen gave up their college eligibility to make themselves eligible for the draft. With seniors and foreign pros filling several draft slots, that means that more than half essentially made stupid decisions. That doesn't count he 70 or so other underclassmen who declared for the draft, but withdrew by the deadline.

I think every kid should declare for the draft every year. If he's not invited to the NBA developmental camp, then he should return to college. If he is invite to the camp, then go, participate, get as much feedback as possible, then make an informed decision whether to stay in the draft or return top college.

Personally, I'm sorry so many kids are in such a hurry to get to the NBA. I love college basketball and can't stand the NBA game.

If I could convince Tatum, Kennard, Giles and Allen to stay at Duke, I'd be a happy man.

But ranting about the system now in place doesn't do anybody any good. It's not like our opinions have any influence on whether these guys stay or go.

I'm sorry that our speculation bothers you ... all I can say is don't click on thread. It's going to happen whether we talk about t or not.

Oly, my bad, I didn't mean to imply you or others in this thread who merely speculate, are the folks pushing kids out the door. Sorry that it came across that way and I should have clarified. I think talking heads, talking heads on ESPN, the folks that run the mock drafts, and the hangers-on's/"advisors" are the ones pushing the kids out the door. And to a lesser degree social media.

Despite my disdain for the current mess, I will still read and participate in this thread because I do want to know who declares an who doesn't for Duke and all other ACC teams. Like you I love college hoops and the ACC an want to stay in the know on upcoming rosters even though I hate the incredible amount of turnover from early departures and transfers.

The speculating doesn't bother me... it's the system itself and the folks that post 'Player X should absolutely go" and their reasoning is always the same; money. I think Tim Duncan, Grant Hill, Shane Battier, and a host of others have plenty money in the bank..

But again, my apologies. I wasn't clear enough in my original post.

mr. synellinden
03-22-2017, 12:49 AM
Every year a player stays in school is thus a peak earning year lost (given the typical career length).

This is the part I always have a big issue with. It's not necessarily true. In fact, I would argue it's not true for many top players. Going to the NBA at 19 or 20 is hard. You play 82 games and travel a lot. If you only have so much mileage you can put on your body, why not stay in college and let your body develop more physically so you are ready for the grind and can have a longer career. If you can play from age 22-37, isn't that better than playing from 20-33? Every year you stay might "earn" you one or two on the back end of your career. Tim Duncan and Grant Hill played for 20 years. They stayed four years. Vince Carter is still playing. He stayed three years. Kobe and Garnett are out of the league already. Let's see how long LeBron and Durant last compared to a guy like Curry. I think elite players can make more money by staying and being more ready for the grind of the NBA, lessening their chance for injury and making more money on the back end. Jabari has had two major injuries already. Kyrie has had some as well. How long are they going to last in the NBA. Yeah, Kyrie is making max money but maybe he would have made more if he could have had a longer career. What if Jabari never gets back to full strength mentally or physically. There are risks to starting your NBA career at 19 or 20 instead of 22 or 23.

MChambers
03-22-2017, 07:59 AM
The key problem (it seems to me) is the need for players to get off their rookie contracts to get "real" money (if they can earn it). Every year a player stays in school is thus a peak earning year lost (given the typical career length). Plus, it makes it harder to get the big money since older players don't as readily get the "potential pass." If I were in charge, I'd propose starting the "clock" for contract purposes after one year out of high school and run it whether the player stays in college or not. That way, a player who stays four years in college can negotiate for big money and forfeits "only" rookie contract money by staying in school. Pursuant to that paradigm, the incentive to go would be dramatically lower. A player who stayed in this set-up is still giving up money but a lot less and the NBA should get better prepared players since more will likely stay.
I've been saying the same thing for years. Kids who stay in college ought to get a shorter rookie salary cap. It would improve both the college and the pro game.

Unfortunately, you and I are not in the majority on this.

Troublemaker
03-22-2017, 08:12 AM
I've been saying the same thing for years. Kids who stay in college ought to get a shorter rookie salary cap. It would improve both the college and the pro game.

Unfortunately, you and I are not in the majority on this.

I think you are in the majority, just not the significant one. You have to be part of a majority of NBA owners to enact change. Unfortunately, NBA owners probably don't mind the rookie contract length being the same for both a 19-yr-old and a 22-yr-old.

Unfortunate. I agree it's a very good idea.

Spanarkel
03-22-2017, 08:48 AM
Drat! Epic rant that deserves major sporks and I get the spread-it-around pop-up.

Much to agree with. All of them should test the waters and get feedback from the NBA folks on what their weaknesses are at the next level. That said, Bolden should come back, as should Luke, each for development. Grayson I'm ambivalent on. I can make the case either way but can't explain why he should want to put up with the nastiness another season. Harry? Again, I'm ambivalent. I think his body needs more time to heal and strengthen, his game needs to mature. But, if someone tosses a couple of million dollars his way, it's insurance for life if the knees don't hold.


Based on Oly's #6 post, 70+ college players declared early and stayed in the draft last year. That's double the number of draft positions available. Most of these young men are not comparable to Jayson. They would do well to stay in school, hone their skills, and get an education.

Not that I've done it, but in today's world it would seem to be pretty easy to spend several million dollars in a few years. 70% of lottery winners(with windfalls in the tens of millions)end up broke in a few years. I am not sure that a few million dollars would give HG, or anyone else, "insurance for life."

MChambers
03-22-2017, 08:59 AM
I think you are in the majority, just not the significant one. You have to be part of a majority of NBA owners to enact change. Unfortunately, NBA owners probably don't mind the rookie contract length being the same for both a 19-yr-old and a 22-yr-old.

Unfortunate. I agree it's a very good idea.
The owners also have to get the union to agree, so that may be part of the issue.

Wouldn't the owners would prefer a more polished NBA game, with better prepared players? I think it would increase interest in the league.

The true stars would still go pro early and live with the rookie cap, so the owners would still get the salary savings from that. It's the good but not great players who would stay 3 or 4 years, and I don't think they would get huge contacts when they entered the league. (Putting aside those insane contracts that were signed last off-season.)

MCFinARL
03-22-2017, 09:06 AM
This is the part I always have a big issue with. It's not necessarily true. In fact, I would argue it's not true for many top players. Going to the NBA at 19 or 20 is hard. You play 82 games and travel a lot. If you only have so much mileage you can put on your body, why not stay in college and let your body develop more physically so you are ready for the grind and can have a longer career. If you can play from age 22-37, isn't that better than playing from 20-33? Every year you stay might "earn" you one or two on the back end of your career. Tim Duncan and Grant Hill played for 20 years. They stayed four years. Vince Carter is still playing. He stayed three years. Kobe and Garnett are out of the league already. Let's see how long LeBron and Durant last compared to a guy like Curry. I think elite players can make more money by staying and being more ready for the grind of the NBA, lessening their chance for injury and making more money on the back end. Jabari has had two major injuries already. Kyrie has had some as well. How long are they going to last in the NBA. Yeah, Kyrie is making max money but maybe he would have made more if he could have had a longer career. What if Jabari never gets back to full strength mentally or physically. There are risks to starting your NBA career at 19 or 20 instead of 22 or 23.

This is an interesting point, and I agree that some players may not be physically (or mentally, for that matter) ready to take the beating of an NBA season at 19 or 20. I also agree that, as college fans, we would be much better off with a system that provided more incentives for players to stay in college. But I wonder if your analysis of how early entry affects career length is a bit oversimplified, or at least supported only by anecdotal evidence. Ability to stay in the league for 15 to 20 years depends on a lot of factors, and very few players manage to do it, regardless of when they began their pro careers.

Similarly, are we sure that injuries to players like Kyrie (who, as we know, had already sustained a major injury in college) and Jabari would not have occurred if they had entered the NBA a couple of years later than they did? Granted their bodies would be more mature, that's not necessarily a defense against injury, which can be affected by things like individual constitution, style of play, and straight up bad luck.

I agree with Newton_14 that there is too much pressure on these kids to leave school, which is in line with the increasing emphasis in our society over the past 30 years or so on wealth as the only measure of personal worth and success (sorry for brief descent into possible PPB territory). But I also think there is no right answer that fits every kid. Most of these kids aren't going to be in the NBA for a long time, and many of them don't see a lot of options beyond basketball for ensuring their financial security. Some of them, clearly, are in college in the first place only because they are not allowed to go directly to the NBA and playing in college seems like an easier and more attractive option than trying to find a spot in the D-League or on a team abroad.

And there is risk either way. Grayson Allen and Harry Giles present two good examples. By coming back, Grayson clearly hurt his draft stock badly. He may well not regret that decision, because he is a good student and he has said that getting a college degree has always been an important part of his plan. But for another kid, less able in the classroom or less academically motivated, what has happened to Grayson this year might have been a disaster.

Harry, on the other hand, faces a tough decision. In one sense, he clearly would be better off to come back to college for another year, to make more progress in getting all the way back--or as far as he can--from his injuries, to build another year's worth of physical strength and maturity, and also, frankly, just to get more playing experience. But there is a high risk involved in staying, too--right now, he can be drafted on his potential; after next season, he could go much higher or, if he sustains another injury, not at all. If he doesn't see another clear life plan for himself outside of basketball, I could hardly blame him if he decided to take what money he can get now and hope it works out.

bluedev_92
03-22-2017, 09:10 AM
This is the part I always have a big issue with. It's not necessarily true. In fact, I would argue it's not true for many top players. Going to the NBA at 19 or 20 is hard. You play 82 games and travel a lot. If you only have so much mileage you can put on your body, why not stay in college and let your body develop more physically so you are ready for the grind and can have a longer career. If you can play from age 22-37, isn't that better than playing from 20-33? Every year you stay might "earn" you one or two on the back end of your career. Tim Duncan and Grant Hill played for 20 years. They stayed four years. Vince Carter is still playing. He stayed three years. Kobe and Garnett are out of the league already. Let's see how long LeBron and Durant last compared to a guy like Curry. I think elite players can make more money by staying and being more ready for the grind of the NBA, lessening their chance for injury and making more money on the back end. Jabari has had two major injuries already. Kyrie has had some as well. How long are they going to last in the NBA. Yeah, Kyrie is making max money but maybe he would have made more if he could have had a longer career. What if Jabari never gets back to full strength mentally or physically. There are risks to starting your NBA career at 19 or 20 instead of 22 or 23.

Great points. To add to this, isn't it possible that the additional time in college helps you to perform better those first few years, resulting in a larger contract once the rookie contract is over (even if rookie contract length stays as is). As opposed to coming out early, not being particularly ready, not performing well & getting a smaller contract or no contract at all after the rookie contract.

MCFinARL
03-22-2017, 09:13 AM
Not that I've done it, but in today's world it would seem to be pretty easy to spend several million dollars in a few years. 70% of lottery winners(with windfalls in the tens of millions)end up broke in a few years. I am not sure that a few million dollars would give HG, or anyone else, "insurance for life."

Well, sure, but it depends on what you do with it, and what your options are. It is pretty easy to spend several million dollars in a few years, and I am sure the lifestyle of many professional athletes encourages that. But if your option is risking a career ending knee injury before you get a contract, a few million dollars, wisely handled, could be a very nice nest egg even if it isn't likely provide a long life on easy street.

FWIW, too, I think lottery winners may be kind of different. There is, perhaps, more incentive to blow money that comes your way as a total windfall rather than as a reward for (or an advance on) your own talents and efforts. And maybe even more than professional athletes (although I could be wrong here), lottery winners are besieged by people wanting to share the largesse--long lost "relatives," people with sob stories, con artists.

CDu
03-22-2017, 09:14 AM
This is the part I always have a big issue with. It's not necessarily true. In fact, I would argue it's not true for many top players. Going to the NBA at 19 or 20 is hard. You play 82 games and travel a lot. If you only have so much mileage you can put on your body, why not stay in college and let your body develop more physically so you are ready for the grind and can have a longer career. If you can play from age 22-37, isn't that better than playing from 20-33? Every year you stay might "earn" you one or two on the back end of your career. Tim Duncan and Grant Hill played for 20 years. They stayed four years. Vince Carter is still playing. He stayed three years. Kobe and Garnett are out of the league already. Let's see how long LeBron and Durant last compared to a guy like Curry. I think elite players can make more money by staying and being more ready for the grind of the NBA, lessening their chance for injury and making more money on the back end. Jabari has had two major injuries already. Kyrie has had some as well. How long are they going to last in the NBA. Yeah, Kyrie is making max money but maybe he would have made more if he could have had a longer career. What if Jabari never gets back to full strength mentally or physically. There are risks to starting your NBA career at 19 or 20 instead of 22 or 23.

I don't think you chose the best examples for your argument. Garnett played more years (21) than any of those guys. Bryant (20) was next, and could certainly still be playing if he was willing to be a role player like Hill and Carter were for the last several years of their careers. Duncan played 19 seasons and was a role player in his last two seasons. Carter is in his 19th season and has been a role player for the last 8 years. Hill played 18 seasons over 19 years but was a role player for the last 6-7 years.

Troublemaker
03-22-2017, 09:15 AM
The owners also have to get the union to agree, so that may be part of the issue.

Wouldn't the owners would prefer a more polished NBA game, with better prepared players? I think it would increase interest in the league.

The true stars would still go pro early and live with the rookie cap, so the owners would still get the salary savings from that. It's the good but not great players who would stay 3 or 4 years, and I don't think they would get huge contacts when they entered the league. (Putting aside those insane contracts that were signed last off-season.)

That's hypothetical, though. Without certainty, the owners probably just want to default to slapping the rookie scale on anyone who enters the league.

Perhaps I am being too cynical, though.

sagegrouse
03-22-2017, 09:30 AM
I don't think you chose the best examples for your argument. Garnett played more years (21) than any of those guys. Bryant (20) was next, and could certainly still be playing if he was willing to be a role player like Hill and Carter were for the last several years of their careers. Duncan played 19 seasons and was a role player in his last two seasons. Carter is in his 19th season and has been a role player for the last 8 years. Hill played 18 seasons over 19 years but was a role player for the last 6-7 years.

Just musing, CDu, not arguing. Role player? Depends on the definition, which I seem to think means "coming off the bench" or playing few minutes. No question that Grant Hill was not the NBA All-Star he was before the injuries after his sixth season, but he was a starter every single year except his final one. Until his final season, he averaged basically 30 minutes per game, although his scoring was about one-half what it was early in his career.

CDu
03-22-2017, 09:36 AM
Just musing, CDu, not arguing. Role player? Depends on the definition, which I seem to think means "coming off the bench" or playing few minutes. No question that Grant Hill was not the NBA All-Star he was before the injuries after his sixth season, but he was a starter every single year except his final one. Until his final season, he averaged basically 30 minutes per game, although his scoring was about one-half what it was early in his career.

Yes, it appears we have different definitions for role player. Role player - to me - is someone who isn't one of the go-to offensive players. A role player can be a starter or a reserve. Similarly, one can be a reserve and not a role player (think Grayson Allen as a reserve late this year - primary offensive player who happened to come off the bench). Joakim Noah is a role player, and has been for most of his career except for a brief run as "point-center" for the Bulls.

Hill was a starter for nearly his entire career. And up into his 30s, he was not a role player. But he ceased to be a primary offensive player in his mid-30s. Hence, he became a role player despite being a starter. He devoted himself to being a defensive-minded, off-ball player as he got older. Similar story for Carter, minus the horrific ankle injuries. Duncan also became a role player in his last couple of years.

wsb3
03-22-2017, 09:42 AM
The Major League Baseball rule should be implemented for Basketball. Go into the draft and/or D League right out of High School or go to College for 3 years. That would be much better than the mess we have now, but there is just too much greed involved for the powers that be to institute that model.

Let them go straight out of high school...but once they sign on the dotted line at a school..in for 3 years. It sure would lend some stability to the sport I love the most. Kids that choose the college route would have to take real classes to be eligible academically for more than one semester.. (UNC does not fit in this scenario) Kids that have no interest in school can go straight to the NBA or the D league as Newton_14 stated.

But this makes too much sense so I think we can forget it ever happening..

CDu
03-22-2017, 09:51 AM
Yes, it appears we have different definitions for role player. Role player - to me - is someone who isn't one of the go-to offensive players. A role player can be a starter or a reserve. Similarly, one can be a reserve and not a role player (think Grayson Allen as a reserve late this year - primary offensive player who happened to come off the bench). Joakim Noah is a role player, and has been for most of his career except for a brief run as "point-center" for the Bulls.

Hill was a starter for nearly his entire career. And up into his 30s, he was not a role player. But he ceased to be a primary offensive player in his mid-30s. Hence, he became a role player despite being a starter. He devoted himself to being a defensive-minded, off-ball player as he got older. Similar story for Carter, minus the horrific ankle injuries. Duncan also became a role player in his last couple of years.

And to follow up on that. For completeness and fairness, Garnett was also a role player for the last 3-4 years of his career.

Bryant's ego and unwillingness to not be the top dog (both financially and in offensive role) was what pushed him into retirement. He certainly could still be playing if he wanted to do so. But he wanted go out as the star. And it became clear from his last two seasons that he wasn't able to be effective as the star anymore. So he hung up his sneakers rather than take a lesser role and continue playing.

Carter realized that he was in decline many years ago, and reinvented himself as a role player. He probably could have continued to be a high-volume guy like Bryant for a few more years than he did. But - like Hill - he decided it was in his best interest to become a role player and defer to others offensively.

MrPoon
03-22-2017, 10:07 AM
It's an interesting conversation, hopefully not taking the thread too far a field.

My understanding is that the structure is one put in place to favor both the league/owners (pay inexperienced players the least with many of them on small, non gauranteed contracts) but it also favors the senior players. In most union leagues, the existing players work to make the league work best for them (they are already there and voting). The last NBA CBA even put in place a max structure for elite players that can go to age 38 (coincidentally the age of Chris Paul, the players rep will turn on his next deal). This works for top flight players already in the league. Not for the kids coming in. For that reason, if you a going to get drafted, go and go fast. The system is against you.

I am struck that the system in the NCAA is also against the kids. Until last year if you declared, they kicked you out. Now you get one (I believe) chance to see if you can go. The least sophisticated person in the system is the kids and the NBA, Player's Union, and NCAA all are looking to help the kids last.

Wish every kid could consider going when they want and come back if they want. I could apply for jobs at any age in college. I am sure I don't have the exact details perfect but the kids need to look out for themselves and their family's few in the system work in their interests.

Not to go all Jay Bilas on this but the NCAA is the worst of the group because it pretends to look out for the kids but does so very very inconsistently. Anyone see the article in SI about how the NCAA and UCLA are looking the other way on the Ball family for using the kid's image and UCLA colors to sell apparel without any ramifications? Talk about a double standard. (I don't think the NCAA should stop what the Ball's are doing, but they have punished others for far far less).

Imagine the noise if Duke allowed Giles to sell apparel with the Duke colors on it but not officially licensed.

Ultrarunner
03-22-2017, 10:11 AM
Not that I've done it, but in today's world it would seem to be pretty easy to spend several million dollars in a few years. 70% of lottery winners(with windfalls in the tens of millions)end up broke in a few years. I am not sure that a few million dollars would give HG, or anyone else, "insurance for life."

The numbers, for lottery winners and NBA players, are stunning. I'm giving Harry some credit for common sense after having multiple early lessons in his basketball mortality.

No guarantee that he can be sensible, but I'd prefer to believe it.

sagegrouse
03-22-2017, 10:32 AM
And to follow up on that. For completeness and fairness, Garnett was also a role player for the last 3-4 years of his career.

Bryant's ego and unwillingness to not be the top dog (both financially and in offensive role) was what pushed him into retirement. He certainly could still be playing if he wanted to do so. But he wanted go out as the star. And it became clear from his last two seasons that he wasn't able to be effective as the star anymore. So he hung up his sneakers rather than take a lesser role and continue playing.

Carter realized that he was in decline many years ago, and reinvented himself as a role player. He probably could have continued to be a high-volume guy like Bryant for a few more years than he did. But - like Hill - he decided it was in his best interest to become a role player and defer to others offensively.

Role player? In a world where euphemisms reign supreme, I believe the term is most often applied to someone at the end of the bench (college or pro) who plays a few minutes a game. It's more polite than saying "scrub." Then there's the "specific role player," like a rebounding specialist or a defensive specialist or a mad bomber from outside -- these are most often reserves.

I don't think anyone starting and playing 30 minutes per game on an NBA team is a "role player." Grant was certainly far more versatile, even later in his career, than the usual use of the term. This is way too broad a definition.

CDu
03-22-2017, 10:39 AM
In a world where euphemisms reign supreme, I believe the term is most often applied to someone at the end of the bench (college or pro) who plays a few minutes a game. It's more polite than saying "scrub." Then there's the "specific role player," like a rebounding specialist or a defensive specialist or a mad bomber from outside -- these are almost often reserves.

I don't think anyone starting and playing 30 minutes per game on an NBA team is a "role player." Grant was certainly far more versatile, even later in his career, than the usual use of the term. This is way too broad a definition.

I think you've made a specifically narrow definition of role player. I don't think that your definition is universally the application of the term, or even the most common. Though I'm sure some do use it the way you have described.

Here are a few websites that agree with my interpretation:
http://www.coachesclipboard.net/RolePlayer.html
https://www.sportingcharts.com/dictionary/nba/role-player.aspx
https://www.coachup.com/nation/articles/the-basketball-role-player
http://www.sbnation.com/2016/2/17/11021866/nba-best-role-players-all-stars-jj-redick-serge-ibaka
https://www.reddit.com/r/nba/comments/37419c/what_does_the_term_role_player_mean_in_basketball/

I've used the same logic in my use of the term that these various sites have used it. You are more than welcome to continue to use your more narrowly-defined version if you like. But for the purposes of what I was saying, I feel pretty comfortable with my use of the term in this case.

Troublemaker
03-22-2017, 11:22 AM
FWIW, I've always understood and used the term "role player" the way CDu does.

Definitely several notches above "scrub," and in fact, to say someone is a great role player is a compliment.

flyingdutchdevil
03-22-2017, 11:23 AM
Role player? In a world where euphemisms reign supreme, I believe the term is most often applied to someone at the end of the bench (college or pro) who plays a few minutes a game. It's more polite than saying "scrub." Then there's the "specific role player," like a rebounding specialist or a defensive specialist or a mad bomber from outside -- these are most often reserves.

I don't think anyone starting and playing 30 minutes per game on an NBA team is a "role player." Grant was certainly far more versatile, even later in his career, than the usual use of the term. This is way too broad a definition.

I think you are confusing the phrase, "role player" with "bench warmer".

IMO, there are three types of players in the NBA: stars, role players, and bench warmers.

Stars: Stars are obvious. They are the players who are likely All-Stars/All-NBA and whom you invest plenty of money into (Kyrie, Jabari, etc)
Role Players: Players who you do not build a team around but rather fill out a team. They can be starters or get off the bench. But they contribute heavily. The vast majority of your team are role players (Mason Plumlee, Rodney Hood, etc)
Bench Warmers: You have 15 slots to fill. Everyone can't play. The rest are bench warmers (Kyle Singler, MP3)

I agree with CDu that you can easily go from star to role player (and vice versa) and from role player to bench warmer (and vice versa). Hell, sometimes you go from star to bench warmer without becoming a role player (Starbury, Larry Sanders...it's usually headcases).

kAzE
03-22-2017, 11:32 AM
I think you are confusing the phrase, "role player" with "bench warmer".

IMO, there are three types of players in the NBA: stars, role players, and bench warmers.

Stars: Stars are obvious. They are the players who are likely All-Stars/All-NBA and whom you invest plenty of money into (Kyrie, Jabari, etc)
Role Players: Players who you do not build a team around but rather fill out a team. They can be starters or get off the bench. But they contribute heavily. The vast majority of your team are role players (Mason Plumlee, Rodney Hood, etc)
Bench Warmers: You have 15 slots to fill. Everyone can't play. The rest are bench warmers (Kyle Singler, MP3)

I would simplify it even more to apply to any level of basketball, professional or otherwise:

Star: A player you build your team/franchise around
Role player: A player who is there to compliment and support the star players in some way
Bench warmer: Depth on the roster to provide insurance for injuries/foul trouble, can be younger developing players who are not yet ready to contribute.

gam7
03-22-2017, 02:42 PM
Today's entries (that haven't already been mentioned on the boards as far as I know):

Austin Nichols, Junior, UVA (definitely in) - draftpexress ranking: NR. (those team interviews are going to be pretty important for Austin)
L.J. Peak, Junior, G'town (definitely in) - draftexpress ranking: 76.
Kyle Kuzma, Junior, Utah (testing waters) - draftexpress ranking: 73.
Thomas Wilder, Junior, Western Michigan (testing waters) - draftexpress ranking: NR.
Eric Mika, Sophomore, BYU (testing waters) - draftexpress ranking: NR.

gam7
03-22-2017, 03:32 PM
Today's entries (that haven't already been mentioned on the boards as far as I know):

Austin Nichols, Junior, UVA (definitely in) - draftpexress ranking: NR. (those team interviews are going to be pretty important for Austin)
L.J. Peak, Junior, G'town (definitely in) - draftexpress ranking: 76.
Kyle Kuzma, Junior, Utah (testing waters) - draftexpress ranking: 73.
Thomas Wilder, Junior, Western Michigan (testing waters) - draftexpress ranking: NR.
Eric Mika, Sophomore, BYU (testing waters) - draftexpress ranking: NR.

Add to the list:

Dwayne Bacon, Sophomore, FSU (definitely in) - draftexpress ranking: 57.
Ivan Rabb, Sophomore, Cal (definitely in) - draftexpress ranking: 23.

azzefkram
03-22-2017, 03:37 PM
Let them go straight out of high school...but once they sign on the dotted line at a school..in for 3 years. It sure would lend some stability to the sport I love the most. Kids that choose the college route would have to take real classes to be eligible academically for more than one semester.. (UNC does not fit in this scenario) Kids that have no interest in school can go straight to the NBA or the D league as Newton_14 stated.

But this makes too much sense so I think we can forget it ever happening..

This is what baseball does. It seems to work okay for them. Maybe tweak it to two years. Seems like a win-win for players and college, probably not as good for the NBA.

CDu
03-22-2017, 03:46 PM
This is what baseball does. It seems to work okay for them. Maybe tweak it to two years. Seems like a win-win for players and college, probably not as good for the NBA.

A couple of things:
1. I'm not sure if it works for the NCAA in baseball. NCAA baseball is a money loser. Now, maybe it would be different with basketball, but that's a distinction that needs to be kept in mind.
2. Baseball also has a VERY structured and tiered minor league system and a financial arrangement that works for drafting high school kids and developing them. You get up to 5 years before you have to put a draftee on the 40-man roster. Once a player makes the 40-man roster, you then have that player's rights for essentially another 7 years. This works in baseball because most high school kids aren't ready for the big leagues. But in the NBA, the 19-20 year olds are often very much ready to compete. So it doesn't really work to have a more true minor league system.

That's not to say that a better system couldn't be worked out. But it ultimately would have to be more beneficial to the NBA, which right now they can't agree upon. And saying "well, it works for baseball" ignores (a) that the two sports are quite different and (b) that NCAA baseball doesn't exactly seem to be thriving.

English
03-22-2017, 04:45 PM
Per Evan Daniels and multiple sources, John Collins will test the high seas without hiring an agent.

Also, per Quick Rick Pitino, Deng Adel, Jaylen Johnson, & Donovan Mitchell will test the waters without an agent.

gofurman
03-22-2017, 09:45 PM
Per Evan Daniels and multiple sources, John Collins will test the high seas without hiring an agent.

Also, per Quick Rick Pitino, Deng Adel, Jaylen Johnson, & Donovan Mitchell will test the waters without an agent.

Keep em coming... I want Duke to win bc we are good. But if other teams are lesser bc of defections that's ok too

ESP UNC. At least lose Jackson. Is Meeks a Senior?

Newton_14
03-22-2017, 09:46 PM
Moderator Note: Thanks to probably me, this thread got hijacked and it has become to cumbersome to come to the thread and get news on early entries and transfers. Oly started a new thread today. I will rename that thread shortly and ask that people not stray from the topic.

If anyone is interested in starting a thread to discuss the current one and done model, the merits of going vs staying, or discuss better models/rules, that's great.


Closing this thread in favor of the new one.