UNC Athletics Scandal: Crowder Emerges

[wsb3]

We can all go home now..

http://www.espn.com/mens-college-basketball/story/_/id/18867669/former-north-carolina-administrator-deborah-crowder-denies-academic-fraud-claims

suspicious timing...maybe I am just cynical..how many days before they report back on violations..

[wsb3]

Kane.

http://www.newsobserver.com/news/local/education/unc-scandal/article137575478.html

[kcduke75]

Whew. I was afraid that there was no more bait and switch left. Curious timing.

[duke4ever19]

Kane.

http://www.newsobserver.com/news/local/education/unc-scandal/article137575478.html

She looks like a younger Margaret Atwood, except without the literary success and integrity.

[PackMan97]

Says the woman who couldn't come into work after UNC basketball lost a game because she was so emotionally traumatized.

Says the woman who is shacking up with a former UNC basketball player.

LOL!

I'm sure SACCS would be interested to know that UNC now considers these classes completely legit.

[Dr. Rosenrosen]

She looks like a younger Margaret Atwood, except without the literary success and integrity.
Gosh, I was thinking Geddy Lee.

[left_hook_lacey]

What does this mean? Bad for UNC? Bad for the NCAA? Irrelevant? Someone with lawyer hack skills and deep knowledge of this whole mess please weigh in.

[Olympic Fan]

What does this mean? Bad for UNC? Bad for the NCAA? Irrelevant? Someone with lawyer hack skills and deep knowledge of this whole mess please weigh in.

Who knows.

Just keep in mind, that Debbie Crowder was actually indicted by the Chapel Hill DA for providing the phony classes (which essentially defrauded the state, which paid for many of those fake classes). Rather that prosecute Crowder and her boss (Julius Nyangoro), he deferred prosecution provided they cooperated with the Wainstein investigation.

During its audit by SCACs (the accrediting agency for Southern Colleges) UNC admitted the fake classes, but blamed them on Crowder and Nyangoro -- two "rouge" educators,

Wainstein carefully documented Crowder's many violations -- half the record are e-mails to her and from her, dealiong with the fake classes.

Crowder has always refused to cooperate with the NCAA ... until now, I guess.

Now she's apparently retracting what she told Wainstein's group ... does this violate her plea agreement with the Chapel Hill DA (a big UNC booster who was doing his best to stifle the scandal)?

As I said, who knows?

[dukelifer]

Who knows.

Just keep in mind, that Debbie Crowder was actually indicted by the Chapel Hill DA for providing the phony classes (which essentially defrauded the state, which paid for many of those fake classes). Rather that prosecute Crowder and her boss (Julius Nyangoro), he deferred prosecution provided they cooperated with the Wainstein investigation.

During its audit by SCACs (the accrediting agency for Southern Colleges) UNC admitted the fake classes, but blamed them on Crowder and Nyangoro -- two "rouge" educators,

Wainstein carefully documented Crowder's many violations -- half the record are e-mails to her and from her, dealiong with the fake classes.

Crowder has always refused to cooperate with the NCAA ... until now, I guess.

Now she's apparently retracting what she told Wainstein's group ... does this violate her plea agreement with the Chapel Hill DA (a big UNC booster who was doing his best to stifle the scandal)?

As I said, who knows?

Sometimes it takes some time - like years- to actually remember the details. Turns out this was a rigorous class which was graded fairly by Nyangoro when he was in town. Finally the real story comes out. Althletes were not given preference to one of the most challenging courses at UNC. If she had just remembered this sooner.

[UrinalCake]

Gosh, I was thinking Geddy Lee.

Howard Stern

[wsb3]

What does this mean? Bad for UNC? Bad for the NCAA? Irrelevant? Someone with lawyer hack skills and deep knowledge of this whole mess please weigh in.

Another way to delay the process is my best guess.with the clock ticking.I believe the 13th is the date they had to answer.

Maybe at some point & stunts like this the NCAA gets very angry.She refuses to talk for years & now she emerges..Coincidence? I think not.

DISCLAIMER I have no lawyer hack skills or deep knowledge. 😉

[oldnavy]

How would this delay the process?

I admittedly have lost interest in this whole thing and have not been following the details, but I don't see where her making a/this statement at this point matters at all.... especially since she is claiming all was done above board...

Not exactly a shocking revelation that will change the course.

[Indoor66]

Another way to delay the process is my best guess.with the clock ticking.I believe the 13th is the date they had to answer.

Maybe at some point & stunts like this the NCAA gets very angry.She refuses to talk for years & now she emerges..Coincidence? I think not.

DISCLAIMER I have no lawyer hack skills or deep knowledge. 😉

That makes you the perfect poster around here. :cool:

[Ultrarunner]

Another way to delay the process is my best guess.with the clock ticking.I believe the 13th is the date they had to answer.

Maybe at some point & stunts like this the NCAA gets very angry.She refuses to talk for years & now she emerges..Coincidence? I think not.

DISCLAIMER I have no lawyer hack skills or deep knowledge. 😉

That's okay. Around here, a deep and abiding suspicion will do. For analysis and lawyer skills (but not hack!), we have the wonderful Swood, whose writings on the topic should be regular fare at ESPN. 😉

[OldPhiKap]

Isn't one of the counts against UNC that Crowder would not cooperate with the investigation?

[devildeac]

Isn't one of the counts against UNC that Crowder would not cooperate with the investigation?

I believe that is correct. Then, she co-operated with Wainstein to avoid Orange County DA prosecution but refused/didn't have to co-operate w/NCAA because she was no longer a cheat employee. But, now saying she "lied" to Wainstein. Gosh, sounds/looks like more unc shenigans. :confused:

I saw where the lying Count was quoted this week or last week on TDD, I think, that the cheaters had their response ready and it'd be filed on time. LOL.

[OldPhiKap]

I believe that is correct. Then, she co-operated with Wainstein to avoid Orange County DA prosecution but refused/didn't have to co-operate w/NCAA because she was no longer a cheat employee. But, now saying she "lied" to Wainstein. Gosh, sounds/looks like more unc shenigans. :confused:

I saw where the lying Count was quoted this week or last week on TDD, I think, that the cheaters had their response ready and it'd be filed on time. LOL.

If I had a hammer,
I'd hammer in the morning;
I'd hammer in the evening;
all over the Heels . . . .

[dukebluesincebirth]

I believe that is correct. Then, she co-operated with Wainstein to avoid Orange County DA prosecution but refused/didn't have to co-operate w/NCAA because she was no longer a cheat employee. But, now saying she "lied" to Wainstein. Gosh, sounds/looks like more unc shenigans. :confused:

I saw where the lying Count was quoted this week or last week on TDD, I think, that the cheaters had their response ready and it'd be filed on time. LOL.

So this could possibly unfold during March Madness? That could be awesome. UNC goes out early and learns they won't be participating again for a few years. Could dreams come true?

[devildeac]

So this could possibly unfold during March Madness? That could be awesome. UNC goes out early and learns they won't be participating again for a few years. Could dreams come true?

Wishful thinking. Somehow, I think, it'll be deferred another 3-6 months by one party or the other and be a nice summer/fall discussion in 2017. And 2018. :mad:

[SoCalDukeFan]

Crowder says she was providing

“customized educational opportunities for students to solve problems created by the institutional bureaucracy.”

Huh. Did she have the background and authority to do that.

Moreover, I thought that at college athletes got first choice on classes. This is necessary so that they are not forced into classes whose meeting times conflict with practice. What problems with "institutional bureaucracy" were faced by UNC athletes.

SoCal

[jv001]

Wishful thinking. Somehow, I think, it'll be deferred another 3-6 months by one party or the other and be a nice summer/fall discussion in 2017. And 2018. :mad:

Just as long as it keeps hurting old roy from getting the best high school players. I hope they get hammered but if and when they do, there will be a time that they begin getting more one and done players. GoDuke!

[BandAlum83]

Just as long as it keeps hurting old roy from getting the best high school players. I hope they get hammered but if and when they do, there will be a time that they begin getting more one and done players. GoDuke!

We see how terribly that's worked out for him.

[oldnavy]

Just as long as it keeps hurting old roy from getting the best high school players. I hope they get hammered but if and when they do, there will be a time that they begin getting more one and done players. GoDuke!

Who Roy will coach up to "3" and and done players..

[jv001]

Who Roy will coach up to "3" and and done players..

Good one and too bad must spread those sporks around. Here's a GoDuke for you!!

[sammy3469]

Who knows.

Just keep in mind, that Debbie Crowder was actually indicted by the Chapel Hill DA for providing the phony classes (which essentially defrauded the state, which paid for many of those fake classes). Rather that prosecute Crowder and her boss (Julius Nyangoro), he deferred prosecution provided they cooperated with the Wainstein investigation.

During its audit by SCACs (the accrediting agency for Southern Colleges) UNC admitted the fake classes, but blamed them on Crowder and Nyangoro -- two "rouge" educators,

Wainstein carefully documented Crowder's many violations -- half the record are e-mails to her and from her, dealiong with the fake classes.

Crowder has always refused to cooperate with the NCAA ... until now, I guess.

Now she's apparently retracting what she told Wainstein's group ... does this violate her plea agreement with the Chapel Hill DA (a big UNC booster who was doing his best to stifle the scandal)?

As I said, who knows?

I'll wait for her to show up at the hearing before saying she's cooperating (which she still needs to do since she's cited in Allegation 3). If she doesn't show, this letter/affidavit are meaningless since she's would still not be cooperating. My guess this is just a big bluff since there is no way UNC wants her in front of the COI or interviewed by enforcement and her lawyer wants to "discuss the terms of her cooperation". If I was the COI, I'd say thanks, we'll see you at the hearing.

This does show UNC's strategy though. They'll continue to claim the interviews in Wainstein aren't admissible and then say this is the only admissible evidence.

[PackMan97]

I'll wait for her to show up at the hearing before saying she's cooperating (which she still needs to do since she's cited in Allegation 3). If she doesn't show, this letter/affidavit are meaningless since she's would still not be cooperating. My guess this is just a big bluff since there is no way UNC wants her in front of the COI or interviewed by enforcement and her lawyer wants to "discuss the terms of her cooperation". If I was the COI, I'd say thanks, we'll see you at the hearing.

This does show UNC's strategy though. They'll continue to claim the interviews in Wainstein aren't admissible and then say this is the only admissible evidence.

It is a goshdarned shame that the administrations at Duke, State and the rest of the ACC haven't stood up and said, we refuse to play these cheating scum.

I've said it once and I've said it again, by UNC's own actions and lack of any adults in charge there is ZERO chance they aren't still cheating. They are unrepentant and petulant. My 3 and 6 year olds show more remorse when they get caught breaking the rules even if they think those rules unjust. UNC has shown the only thing important to them is winning.

[sagegrouse]

Isn't one of the counts against UNC that Crowder would not cooperate with the investigation?

OPK: Yes, it is one of the counts, but the penalty would presumably be levied against Crowder rather than UNC per se, such as not being allowed to have any connection with NCAA athletics.

[DukieInKansas]

Crowder says she was providing

“customized educational opportunities for students to solve problems created by the institutional bureaucracy.”

Huh. Did she have the background and authority to do that.

Moreover, I thought that at college athletes got first choice on classes. This is necessary so that they are not forced into classes whose meeting times conflict with practice. What problems with "institutional bureaucracy" were faced by UNC athletes.

SoCal

The problem of satisfying the NCAA graduation/GPA requirements while still trying to win.

[English]

Just as long as it keeps hurting old roy from getting the best high school players. I hope they get hammered but if and when they do, there will be a time that they begin getting more one and done players. GoDuke!

No way. Roy values the integrity of the educational endeavor too much to recruit OADs.

/Eye Rolling Emoji

[weezie]

Crowder says she was providing

“customized educational opportunities for students to solve problems created by the institutional bureaucracy.”

So, she was acting as a "stylist" like that old tv show, "What Not To Wear" only more like "What Not To Take If It's Too Hard To Cheat"

[Duke79UNLV77]

Gosh, I was thinking Geddy Lee.

Well, glittering prizes and endless compromises shatter the illusion of integrity.

[swood1000]

It makes one wonder what inducement caused Crowder to cooperate after refusing to do so until now, although all the story says is that her affidavit was released, meaning that she agreed to sign a document prepared by her own attorney.

Crowder's testimony to Wainstein was indispensable to his finding that she and the ASPSA counselors provided extra benefits to student-athletes. The Martin Report had not found any difference between what the athletes received and what the regular students received, and on the basis of that the NCAA had decided not to charge any of this. However, the district attorney threatened Crowder with felony charges unless she cooperated with Wainstein, and she did. UNC tried to get this testimony excluded from the COI hearing on technical grounds but this was shot down by the COI. It appears that UNC now intends to rebut her Wainstein interviews with new interviews in which she will assert that Wainstein got it wrong.

Her attorney said that this is a "first step" in her cooperation with the NCAA. Maybe they intend dueling interviews, in which the enforcement staff will show up relying on transcripts of her "hearsay" testimony to Wainstein and UNC will counter with transcripts of her current testimony. If so, I wonder which testimony will be given greater weight by the COI, given that if she had been caught in a lie to Wainstein she would have lost her immunity from prosecution. Even if she agrees to show up at the COI hearing and be cross-examined, she faces no great penalty from the NCAA if she lies, not even perjury. The worst the NCAA can do to her is to forbid an NCAA institution from hiring her in a position having interaction with student-athletes. And there is much that UNC can do to encourage friendly testimony from her, either directly or indirectly via boosters. No doubt they believe that they can prepare her to be a good witness for their side.

She could say that she was so traumatized by the threats of criminal prosecution that she said what she thought Wainstein wanted to hear, thinking that if she spoke the truth they wouldn't believe her. However she needs to be careful with this since her deal with the prosecutor required her to speak honestly and if she admits not having done this she can probably still be charged. To the extent that UNC intends to prove that Wainstein was biased or corrupt or incompetent it's not the side of the case that I would want to have to argue.

[oldnavy]

It makes one wonder what inducement caused Crowder to cooperate after refusing to do so until now, although all the story says is that her affidavit was released, meaning that she agreed to sign a document prepared by her own attorney.

Crowder's testimony to Wainstein was indispensable to his finding that she and the ASPSA counselors provided extra benefits to student-athletes. The Martin Report had not found any difference between what the athletes received and what the regular students received, and on the basis of that the NCAA had decided not to charge any of this. However, the district attorney threatened Crowder with felony charges unless she cooperated with Wainstein, and she did. UNC tried to get this testimony excluded from the COI hearing on technical grounds but this was shot down by the COI. It appears that UNC now intends to rebut her Wainstein interviews with new interviews in which she will assert that Wainstein got it wrong.

Her attorney said that this is a "first step" in her cooperation with the NCAA. Maybe they intend dueling interviews, in which the enforcement staff will show up relying on transcripts of her "hearsay" testimony to Wainstein and UNC will counter with transcripts of her current testimony. If so, I wonder which testimony will be given greater weight by the COI, given that if she had been caught in a lie to Wainstein she would have lost her immunity from prosecution. Even if she agrees to show up at the COI hearing and be cross-examined, she faces no great penalty from the NCAA if she lies, not even perjury. The worst the NCAA can do to her is to forbid an NCAA institution from hiring her in a position having interaction with student-athletes. And there is much that UNC can do to encourage friendly testimony from her, either directly or indirectly via boosters. No doubt they believe that they can prepare her to be a good witness for their side.

She could say that she was so traumatized by the threats of criminal prosecution that she said what she thought Wainstein wanted to hear, thinking that if she spoke the truth they wouldn't believe her. However she needs to be careful with this since her deal with the prosecutor required her to speak honestly and if she admits not having done this she can probably still be charged. To the extent that UNC intends to prove that Wainstein was biased or corrupt or incompetent it's not the side of the case that I would want to have to argue.

So no matter what she says she is a liar.

[Olympic Fan]

Question for a lawyer:

Crowder just filed an affidavit ...

Is that the same as testimony or a deposition under oath?

By that, I mean, is Crowder vulnerable to perjury charges if anything in her affidavit is untrue?

Is there any legal penalty for lying in an affidavit?

[OldPhiKap]

Question for a lawyer:

Crowder just filed an affidavit ...

Is that the same as testimony or a deposition under oath?

By that, I mean, is Crowder vulnerable to perjury charges if anything in her affidavit is untrue?

Is there any legal penalty for lying in an affidavit?

Yes to all of the above, if the affidavit was prepared in conjunction with a court proceeding. It is sworn testimony, albeit not subject to cross-examination (and thus not admissible for all purposes).

[MarkD83]

This "case" always seems to be analyzed by strict rules that apply to a normal judicial case. However the COI seems to be a place where penalties are delivered and the enforcement staff and ANOA is the "evidence" showing a violation. So does this avadavit even matter? The COI could say we have seen all the evidence and here is the ruling. It is too late for new evidence

[swood1000]

Question for a lawyer:

Crowder just filed an affidavit ...

Is that the same as testimony or a deposition under oath?

By that, I mean, is Crowder vulnerable to perjury charges if anything in her affidavit is untrue?

Is there any legal penalty for lying in an affidavit?

The North Carolina statute is typical:


§ 20‑31 Making false affidavits perjury. Any person who shall make any false affidavit, or shall knowingly swear or affirm falsely, to any matter or thing required by the terms of this Article to be sworn to or affirmed shall be guilty of a Class I felony.

§ 14-209. Punishment for perjury. If any person shall willfully and corruptly commit perjury, on his oath or affirmation, in any suit, controversy, matter or cause, depending in any of the courts of the State, or in any deposition or affidavit taken pursuant to law, or in any oath or affirmation duly administered of or concerning any matter or thing whereof such person is lawfully required to be sworn or affirmed, every person so offending shall be punished as a Class F felon.

But for it to be perjury it has to be a statement made to a matter that is required to be sworn to or affirmed, such as a legal proceeding. But suppose there is no legal proceeding. Suppose a person signs an affidavit that he truly saw a flying saucer, and this is not connected to a legal matter. He just wants to be believed. It doesn't seem to fall under the statute. Or suppose it takes place as a part of a proceeding of a private organization, such as the NCAA, and there is no statute requiring statements made in the particular proceeding to be truthful under penalty of perjury.

[swood1000]

The COI could say we have seen all the evidence and here is the ruling. It is too late for new evidence

Except that they have set up a procedure that involves a hearing and to refuse to provide a hearing would seem to be a violation of their own rules, and the agreement made with the members.

Furthermore, there have been calls in some states for legislation that would require the NCAA to provide the types of strict "due process" that is required in a criminal proceeding. The NCAA doesn't want this and so is not going to be seen to be denying the most basic form of due process - a hearing.

[Devil2]

Except that they have set up a procedure that involves a hearing and to refuse to provide a hearing would seem to be a violation of their own rules, and the agreement made with the members.

Furthermore, there have been calls in some states for legislation that would require the NCAA to provide the types of strict "due process" that is required in a criminal proceeding. The NCAA doesn't want this and so is not going to be seen to be denying the most basic form of due process - a hearing.

Given that the NCAA doesn't have subpoena power, wouldn't that place umdue burden on the NCAA

[sammy3469]

This "case" always seems to be analyzed by strict rules that apply to a normal judicial case. However the COI seems to be a place where penalties are delivered and the enforcement staff and ANOA is the "evidence" showing a violation. So does this avadavit even matter? The COI could say we have seen all the evidence and here is the ruling. It is too late for new evidence

She was cited in the ANOA, I believe she has to show at the COI hearing. If she doesn't show or have some agreement with the COI, whatever she just submitted isn't worth much if anything. Even if she shows, the COI can weigh the testimony against the other evidence and still find Allegation 1 and 5 applicable.

That's why this is too cute by half and a big bluff. UNC can't really want her to show at that hearing. My guess is they are hoping the COI will give them even more time to incorporate her affidavit, but I doubt they do. It's not their problem she wants to cooperate 3 years later.

[JetpackJesus]

I didn't see it posted yet, so here's a link (https://img.scout.com/sites/default/files/2017/03/09/2017.3.8%20-%20Affidavit%20of%20Deborah%20Crowder%20-%20AS%20SENT.PDF) to the "affidavit," which does not state any kind of oath. NBD ... an oath is just the thing that makes an affidavit an affidavit.

This thing amounts to little more than an improperly formatted letter signed before a notary.

[LastRowFan]

This quote in the Kane article set me on edge:


Stuart Brown, an attorney who handles NCAA infractions cases, said the NCAA’s enforcement staff and infractions committee are likely to give Crowder an opportunity to be heard.


“They want to get more information, and they don’t want to be seen as excluding somebody from the system and then ruling against them,” he said.

Is this going back to ENFORCEMENT, for yet another amended NOA, before UNC files its response to the last NOA? UNC's defense strategy feels like a check kiting scheme.





It makes one wonder what inducement caused Crowder to cooperate after refusing to do so until now, although all the story says is that her affidavit was released, meaning that she agreed to sign a document prepared by her own attorney.

Crowder's testimony to Wainstein was indispensable to his finding that she and the ASPSA counselors provided extra benefits to student-athletes. The Martin Report had not found any difference between what the athletes received and what the regular students received, and on the basis of that the NCAA had decided not to charge any of this. However, the district attorney threatened Crowder with felony charges unless she cooperated with Wainstein, and she did. UNC tried to get this testimony excluded from the COI hearing on technical grounds but this was shot down by the COI. It appears that UNC now intends to rebut her Wainstein interviews with new interviews in which she will assert that Wainstein got it wrong.

Her attorney said that this is a "first step" in her cooperation with the NCAA. Maybe they intend dueling interviews, in which the enforcement staff will show up relying on transcripts of her "hearsay" testimony to Wainstein and UNC will counter with transcripts of her current testimony. If so, I wonder which testimony will be given greater weight by the COI, given that if she had been caught in a lie to Wainstein she would have lost her immunity from prosecution. Even if she agrees to show up at the COI hearing and be cross-examined, she faces no great penalty from the NCAA if she lies, not even perjury. The worst the NCAA can do to her is to forbid an NCAA institution from hiring her in a position having interaction with student-athletes. And there is much that UNC can do to encourage friendly testimony from her, either directly or indirectly via boosters. No doubt they believe that they can prepare her to be a good witness for their side.

She could say that she was so traumatized by the threats of criminal prosecution that she said what she thought Wainstein wanted to hear, thinking that if she spoke the truth they wouldn't believe her. However she needs to be careful with this since her deal with the prosecutor required her to speak honestly and if she admits not having done this she can probably still be charged. To the extent that UNC intends to prove that Wainstein was biased or corrupt or incompetent it's not the side of the case that I would want to have to argue.

[dpslaw]

I'm not sure that I've ever seen minimal academic standards characterized as "problems created by the institutional bureaucracy."

[Stray Gator]

It appears to me that Ms. Crowder is going to encounter substantial difficulties reconciling the statements in her affidavit with the extensive documentary record, including particularly the e-mail messages that were sent to or received by her contemporaneously with the alleged misconduct. Given the fact that she has, for whatever reasons, allowed UNC to dictate whether and when she will address these charges, a skeptic might perceive this sudden willingness to "cooperate" as a desperate attempt by UNC to shore up its failed strategy of contesting the NCAA's jurisdiction and asserting purely procedural objections by pivoting back to disputing the merits of the alleged academic/athletic eligibility fraud scheme.

[Indoor66]

It appears to me that Ms. Crowder is going to encounter substantial difficulties reconciling the statements in her affidavit with the extensive documentary record, including particularly the e-mail messages that were sent to or received by her contemporaneously with the alleged misconduct. Given the fact that she has, for whatever reasons, allowed UNC to dictate whether and when she will address these charges, a skeptic might perceive this sudden willingness to "cooperate" as a desperate attempt by UNC to shore up its failed strategy of contesting the NCAA's jurisdiction and asserting purely procedural objections by pivoting back to disputing the merits of the alleged academic/athletic eligibility fraud scheme.

IMO, the current Crowder strategy will be an utter and complete failure. Even the blind can see through this ploy.

The Cheats have run out of moves and plays. They have no more time outs and Berry has five fouls. No one can shoot threes and they are down four possessions with about 68 seconds left. Time to bail out. Time to accept the inevitable.

[BigWayne]

It appears to me that Ms. Crowder is going to encounter substantial difficulties reconciling the statements in her affidavit with the extensive documentary record, including particularly the e-mail messages that were sent to or received by her contemporaneously with the alleged misconduct. Given the fact that she has, for whatever reasons, allowed UNC to dictate whether and when she will address these charges, a skeptic might perceive this sudden willingness to "cooperate" as a desperate attempt by UNC to shore up its failed strategy of contesting the NCAA's jurisdiction and asserting purely procedural objections by pivoting back to disputing the merits of the alleged academic/athletic eligibility fraud scheme.

I have had similar thoughts, but it's just too absurd for me to really embrace them. The fundamental excuse she is using is that she was overcoming what she felt were unjust situations brought on by the rules of the university. As corrupt as UNC is, it's hard to see them embracing someone using failures of the institution as a defense. Is she unwittingly playing into their theme of the two rogue employees defense?

[swood1000]

If this affidavit by Crowder was the best they could come up with it’s not looking good for the defense. Some of her statements:


• The purpose of the courses in question was to help all students, not to provide any special assistance to athletes.

Even if true it just shows that she set up a mechanism available to all and the advisors to the athletes (ASPSA) took it from there to make sure that the athletes were steered to the classes. How else could athletes account for 48% of all enrollments in the irregular classes, but only 8.3% of the enrollments in the regular AFAM courses? And how else could athletes be 4% of the student body but 47.6% of the paper class enrollments?


• All students had access to these courses in the same manner-that is, by working with their academic advisors.

And it required academic advisors to know which classes to sign up for. The charge is that the ASPSA advisors gave the athletes an access to these classes greater than that of the non-athletes.


• Athletes and non-athletes were treated the same with respect to all material aspects of the courses-that is, course requirements, course access, and course grading.

Even if non-athletes were treated the same, and had the same “access” it only means that there was no impediment to signing up as long as they knew that such courses were available and which ones to sign up for. This is where the ASPSA advisors provided the extra benefit.


• I did not desire to "increase the scope of [my] personal authority," as alleged in the report.

The report didn’t say that she “desired” to do it, just that she did it. “[Nyang’oro] also gave her approval to sign his name on Department paperwork, a delegation that Crowder used effectively to increase the scope of her personal authority.”


• I did not design the customized courses, nor did I "substitute[e] [my]self for the professor and substitute[e] [my] standards for those that traditionally apply to independent studies."

Wainstein said, “In light of that push-back from the ASPSA counselors, Crowder took it upon herself to improvise with AFAM’s independent study classes. She did so by designing an irregular independent study class that essentially took the professor out of the picture – substituting herself for the professor and substituting her standards for those that traditionally apply to independent studies.” As far as Wainstein’s conclusions go, they are based on his interpretation of the statements Crowder made to him. The COI will just have to read the transcripts and see if they come to the same conclusions.


• Rather, Professor Nyang'oro became increasingly unavailable and put the burden of reviewing and grading the papers on me.

So it was Nyang'oro fault, not hers. Whatever. Who does Crowder's attorney (who drafted this document) think is paying his fee? Crowder?


• It is also not true that I provided As or Bs "so long as [the papers] satisfies the page-length requirement." Instead, the papers had to be on topic, have appropriate citations and a properly formatted bibliography, be of the appropriate length, and be accompanied by the Honor Pledge.

So the COI will have to decide whether being on topic, having citations and a bibliography, and including an Honor Pledge add significantly to the rigor required, beyond being the right length. According to Wainstein, “She received the completed papers from the students and graded them herself, cursorily skimming them over and awarding As or Bs so long as they satisfied the page-length requirement…”


• It is not true that I graded all of the papers in question. Professor Nyang' oro initially graded all of the papers. It was only in later years that Professor Nyang' oro began travelling so much that he was unavailable to grade papers and thus placed this additional burden on me.

It was not true that she graded all the papers in question until she started grading all the papers in question. But it was Nyang'oro’s fault.


• It is not true that the papers required "relatively little work." Researching and writing these papers was a difficult and time-consuming task.

After all, they had to have the right number of pages, in addition to having citations, a bibliography and an Honor Pledge. To Crowder this qualifies as a difficult and time-consuming task, showing one reason why faculty are preferred to support staff when selecting instructors. Of course with “hawk-eye Crowder” doing the grading nobody in such a course would dare think that he could get away with just making up the citations and bibliography, and it goes without saying that nobody who signed the Honor Pledge would even consider it.


• It is not true that only athletics academic advisors proposed students for enrollment in the courses. Rather, I worked with all academic advisors, both non-athletic and athletic academic advisors, to enroll students that they proposed.

It’s just that the efforts of athletic academic advisors resulted in 4% of the student body becoming 47.6% of the paper class enrollments. If the non-athletic counselors had been as effective there may not have been any extra benefits.


• …I believed we had a duty to protect the students and their futures- not by giving away grades, but by providing customized educational opportunities for students to solve problems created by the institutional bureaucracy.

Customized educational opportunities. So let’s hear no more about “fake” classes.

[sammy3469]

I have had similar thoughts, but it's just too absurd for me to really embrace them. The fundamental excuse she is using is that she was overcoming what she felt were unjust situations brought on by the rules of the university. As corrupt as UNC is, it's hard to see them embracing someone using failures of the institution as a defense. Is she unwittingly playing into their theme of the two rogue employees defense?

I do think it's important to note that UNC, Boxill, Crowder, and Nyang'oro all are suppose to make responses to the COI with respect to the allegations in the ANOA and then appear at the hearing. Implied in that is they get to defend themselves. Granted Crowder has been non responsive so far, but she still has that obligations. I don't think UNC wants her at the COI hearing for a number of reasons which means...

since her response is so out of field with the Exhibits, I'm sure UNC is hoping the COI will take the conservative road and ask Enforcement to interview her and thus give them more time to respond (i.e push this out even farther). My guess is that doesn't happen and they just ask her and UNC to respond to the ANOA and then appear at the hearing. This allows UNC their due process arguments later on even though the NCAA is following their procedures.

I'd also guess that UNC is thinking this isn't so much to plead total innocence, but rather to cloudy the picture for the penalty phase. Allegation 1 is pretty broad and could apply to the entire athletic department for the entire time period. UNC's lawyers know that, know they are going to lose, and this increases the burden on the NCAA to "prove" there was an extra benefit for any given athlete/sport. Basically shifting the allegation from the athletic department as a whole back onto the individual sports for the penalty phase. I always sort of expected UNC to try to get to that place for the penalty phase, I just didn't think it would be so brazen (which as we've seen isn't taken too kindly by the COI).

[wsb3]

So it was Nyang'oro fault, not hers.?

Wonder what his response is... I have to hand it to the Cheats..So far they have kept the rats on the sinking ship together. How I wish they would start to turn on each other. But I suspect lots of $$$$$$$$$$$$$ in play...

[Henderson]

Debbie Crowder says through her lawyer that she was great at her job. That settles it. Why would someone say something like that if it's not true?

[Olympic Fan]

Wonder what his response is... I have to hand it to the Cheats..So far they have kept the rats on the sinking ship together. How I wish they would start to turn on each other. But I suspect lots of $$$$$$$$$$$$$ in play...

I have a friend (a retired sports columnist) who has retired to Asheville.

We were talking about Rashad McCants, who was at one point blowing the whistle on the entire scam -- even releasing his transcripts to show the phony classes. Then, all of a sudden, McCants shut up. He refused to talk to the NCAA. I wonder why?

My friend said that a big UNC booster from Asheville funneled some signifiant money to McCants ... now he's not talking.

I can't prove it and neither can he, but it certainly fits their modus operandi.

[wsb3]

I have a friend (a retired sports columnist) who has retired to Asheville.

We were talking about Rashad McCants, who was at one point blowing the whistle on the entire scam -- even releasing his transcripts to show the phony classes. Then, all of a sudden, McCants shut up. He refused to talk to the NCAA. I wonder why?

My friend said that a big UNC booster from Asheville funneled some signifiant money to McCants ... now he's not talking.

I can't prove it and neither can he, but it certainly fits their modus operandi.

There is no telling how much money has been spent thus far. I have not seen a recent fee for lawyers alone. It was over ten million in this article & that was October 2015..

http://www.wral.com/unc-ch-paid-7-6m-for-legal-pr-help-in-academic-scandal/15022416/

[Papa John]

"Customized educational opportunities"... Sounds an awful lot like "alternative facts" to me...

Crowder's emergence means nothing except a potential delay of the inevitable...

[Henderson]

"Customized educational opportunities"... Sounds an awful lot like "alternative facts" to me...


I thought it sounded like an escort service trying to pass itself off as a therapy clinic.

[Karl Beem]

IMO, the current Crowder strategy will be an utter and complete failure. Even the blind can see through this ploy.

The Cheats have run out of moves and plays. They have no more time outs and Berry has five fouls. No one can shoot threes and they are down four possessions with about 68 seconds left. Time to bail out. Time to accept the inevitable.

Send in the Blue team.

[WWBD]

Something about this feels very similar to when UNC reported a few minor violations in its Women's soccer program in the 11th hour.
Time to re-open the investigation!
(I don't really mind, as their recruiting can continue to wilt indefinitely as far as I'm concerned). The piper will be paid eventually.

[WWBD]

I have a friend (a retired sports columnist) who has retired to Asheville.

We were talking about Rashad McCants, who was at one point blowing the whistle on the entire scam -- even releasing his transcripts to show the phony classes. Then, all of a sudden, McCants shut up. He refused to talk to the NCAA. I wonder why?

My friend said that a big UNC booster from Asheville funneled some signifiant money to McCants ... now he's not talking.

I can't prove it and neither can he, but it certainly fits their modus operandi.

Of course that's the reason. Was anybody in doubt about that?
It's not a coincidence that Sean May was offered a salaried position around the same time. You tie up your loose ends. Raymond Felton has done well enough for himself in the NBA that he doesn't need to look for a handout.

[LastRowFan]

Tomorrow is 90 days from the issuance of the third notice of allegations on Dec. 13, 2016. Do you think we will hear anything from UNC?



Something about this feels very similar to when UNC reported a few minor violations in its Women's soccer program in the 11th hour.
Time to re-open the investigation!
(I don't really mind, as their recruiting can continue to wilt indefinitely as far as I'm concerned). The piper will be paid eventually.

[devildeac]

Well, it's 3/13/17, pretty darned close to 90D after the new and improved ANOA was issued and the most recent other ANOA thread is closed and all I hear today is:

chirp, chirp...

[OldPhiKap]

Well, it's 3/13/17, pretty darned close to 90D after the new and improved ANOA was issued and the most recent other ANOA thread is closed and all I hear today is:

chirp, chirp...

Well, they will need to do all of the redactions, etcetera, until some Friday afternoon when the all-clear is given to dump it. Likely after the tourney.

[Olympic Fan]

I could be wrong, but my understanding is that UNC is not required to announce or release their response to the NOA.

I KNOW the NCAA does not publically acknowledge receipt.

[Tom B.]

It appears to me that Ms. Crowder is going to encounter substantial difficulties reconciling the statements in her affidavit with the extensive documentary record, including particularly the e-mail messages that were sent to or received by her contemporaneously with the alleged misconduct. Given the fact that she has, for whatever reasons, allowed UNC to dictate whether and when she will address these charges, a skeptic might perceive this sudden willingness to "cooperate" as a desperate attempt by UNC to shore up its failed strategy of contesting the NCAA's jurisdiction and asserting purely procedural objections by pivoting back to disputing the merits of the alleged academic/athletic eligibility fraud scheme.

This.

Even if she's now contradicting what she told the Wainstein investigators, there's still a pretty impressive paper trail with her name all over it. So she can try to take back what she said to Wainstein, or claim that Wainstein got it wrong, or claim that she told Wainstein what she thought he wanted to hear because she was scared of being prosecuted -- but however much she tries to muddy her own prior statements, she can't just make all that documentary and e-mail evidence disappear.

[devildeac]

I could be wrong, but my understanding is that UNC is not required to announce or release their response to the NOA.

I KNOW the NCAA does not publically acknowledge receipt.

May well be true. I think other folks have postulated their response this time could be no response, therefore, delaying the timeline once again, to no one's surprise. Sadly, they're playing in another NCAAT.

[Dr. Rosenrosen]

May well be true. I think other folks have postulated their response this time could be no response, therefore, delaying the timeline once again, to no one's surprise. Sadly, they're playing in another NCAAT.
They're probably very concerned about doing anything right now that might detract from primary mission of the university*... to raise ncaa basketball banners at any and all cost.

[BLPOG]

It appears to me that Ms. Crowder is going to encounter substantial difficulties reconciling the statements in her affidavit with the extensive documentary record, including particularly the e-mail messages that were sent to or received by her contemporaneously with the alleged misconduct. Given the fact that she has, for whatever reasons, allowed UNC to dictate whether and when she will address these charges, a skeptic might perceive this sudden willingness to "cooperate" as a desperate attempt by UNC to shore up its failed strategy of contesting the NCAA's jurisdiction and asserting purely procedural objections by pivoting back to disputing the merits of the alleged academic/athletic eligibility fraud scheme.


This.

Even if she's now contradicting what she told the Wainstein investigators, there's still a pretty impressive paper trail with her name all over it. So she can try to take back what she said to Wainstein, or claim that Wainstein got it wrong, or claim that she told Wainstein what she thought he wanted to hear because she was scared of being prosecuted -- but however much she tries to muddy her own prior statements, she can't just make all that documentary and e-mail evidence disappear.

As Tom B. put it, "This."

What I have to wonder is whether Crowder or her lawyer recognize how impressive that paper trail is. There are documents that directly contradict, in Crowder's own words, what is later claimed in the affidavit. Do they even realize that?

[Tom B.]

Thinking a little more about this...doesn't Crowder's affidavit actually complicate things for UNC? Think back to October of 2014, when UNC released the Wainstein report -- all the UNC brass at that press conference (Folt, Ross, Bubba, etc.) kept calling the scam the "Nyang'oro/Crowder scheme," or something like that. The party line wasn't that the fraud didn't happen -- in fact, they admitted that the fraud happened. They just argued that the fraud was the work of two rogue employees, and not a result of institutional failures or corruption.

Since then, UNC's strategy has evolved from "the fraud was the work of two rogue employees" to "the fraud was a purely academic issue and the NCAA lacks the jurisdiction or authority to do anything about it." But critically, they're still not denying -- and have never denied -- that the fraud occurred. They're just arguing that it's not the type of fraud the NCAA can punish them for.

So now along comes Debbie over two years after the fact and says, "Nope, no fraud here. None whatsoever. Everything that happened was kosher and, in fact, you should be thanking me for protecting these students from an institutional bureaucracy that didn't meet their needs." Um, what??!! How can UNC possibly adopt or endorse her account, when they were throwing her under the bus back in 2014/2015, and have never argued that the sham classes weren't improper? If nothing was wrong, why did UNC make a big public show of Wainstein's findings? Why did they fire nine people? Why did they institute all those "reforms" they love to toot their horn about? Why did they bend over backwards to assure SACS they'd weeded out the bad apples and put corrective measures into place?

I think UNC's in a spot here. If they go along with Crowder's eleventh-hour counter-narrative, the COI's going to have a lot of uncomfortable questions for them.

[Indoor66]

Thinking a little more about this...doesn't Crowder's affidavit actually complicate things for UNC? Think back to October of 2014, when UNC released the Wainstein report -- all the UNC brass at that press conference (Folt, Ross, Bubba, etc.) kept calling the scam the "Nyang'oro/Crowder scheme," or something like that. The party line wasn't that the fraud didn't happen -- in fact, they admitted that the fraud happened. They just argued that the fraud was the work of two rogue employees, and not a result of institutional failures or corruption.

Since then, UNC's strategy has evolved from "the fraud was the work of two rogue employees" to "the fraud was a purely academic issue and the NCAA lacks the jurisdiction or authority to do anything about it." But critically, they're still not denying -- and have never denied -- that the fraud occurred. They're just arguing that it's not the type of fraud the NCAA can punish them for.

So now along comes Debbie over two years after the fact and says, "Nope, no fraud here. None whatsoever. Everything that happened was kosher and, in fact, you should be thanking me for protecting these students from an institutional bureaucracy that didn't meet their needs." Um, what??!! How can UNC possibly adopt or endorse her account, when they were throwing her under the bus back in 2014/2015, and have never argued that the sham classes weren't improper? If nothing was wrong, why did UNC make a big public show of Wainstein's findings? Why did they fire nine people? Why did they institute all those "reforms" they love to toot their horn about? Why did they bend over backwards to assure SACS they'd weeded out the bad apples and put corrective measures into place?

I think UNC's in a spot here. If they go along with Crowder's eleventh-hour counter-narrative, the COI's going to have a lot of uncomfortable questions for them.

But, but, I want to eat it and keep it!😎

[oldnavy]

But, but, I want to eat it and keep it!��

Oh what a tangled web we weave....

[rasputin]

IMO, the current Crowder strategy will be an utter and complete failure. Even the blind can see through this ploy.

The Cheats have run out of moves and plays. They have no more time outs and Berry has five fouls. No one can shoot threes and they are down four possessions with about 68 seconds left. Time to bail out. Time to accept the inevitable.

Roy's teams never run out of time outs.

[OldPhiKap]

Roy's teams never run out of time outs.

or excuses.

[sagegrouse]

As Tom B. put it, "This."

What I have to wonder is whether Crowder or her lawyer recognize how impressive that paper trail is. There are documents that directly contradict, in Crowder's own words, what is later claimed in the affidavit. Do they even realize that?

I honestly believe that Debbie Crowder's response was primarily to "get right with the gods" -- mount some sort of defense so she is not seen as pleading guilty by her Chapel Hill neighbors, UNC fans, and former her colleagues at UNC, especially in athletics. She has retired, and there isn't a darned thing the NCAA can do to her, even though she was named as a culprit in the NOA and the ANOAs.

[Reilly]

Roy's teams never run out of time outs.


or excuses.

or gas ... at least the bus doesn't, as it keeps rolling over the people Roy throws under it ...

[Nugget]

I thought it sounded like an escort service trying to pass itself off as a therapy clinic.

Well-played.

[swood1000]

UNC may have missed the deadline but Crowder didn't. Her response to NOA-3 is here (https://img.scout.com/sites/default/files/2017/03/09/2017.3.9%20-%20Letter%20to%20Jonathan%20Duncan%20-%20AS%20SENT_1.PDF). She says that Allegation 3 (that she didn't cooperate) should be regarded as moot because she is "considering cooperating." She was also mentioned in allegation 1 and said that this allegation was false because "The fact that thousands of non-athletes took these courses is conclusive proof that these courses were "generally available" to non-athletes." Furthermore, the courses were academically rigorous and "Thus, unless the student violated the Honor Pledge, the course was an academically rigorous course requiring many hours of thoughtful work."

I guess UNC was not required to tell anyone if they received a short extension. Nor are they required to hop to it in preparing their reply for release.

[swood1000]

Crowder also does not know what the hubbub is all about, given that "Professors at the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill have wide latitude to provide educational opportunities to students. Ms. Crowder knows of no university policies that prohibited Professor Nyang’oro from offering these courses, and she believes none existed." She seems somewhat indignant.

Looks like she has decided that she doesn't need to be on the same page as as Bubba Cunningham, who had said "No question. No question there was a breach of ethics."

[LastRowFan]

See: http://www.newsobserver.com/sports/college/acc/unc/unc-now/article138618983.html (by Andrew Carter)

"The university has not yet responded to the NCAA Enforcement Staff’s third notice of allegations, a UNC spokeswoman wrote in an email on Wednesday, and now the university is “awaiting guidance from the committee on infractions on a new schedule.”

UNC’s 90-day deadline to respond to its latest notice of allegations (NOA) came and went on Monday without an update from the university about the status of its response. Joanne Peters, UNC’s media relations director, wrote on Wednesday that “in consultation” with the NCAA, UNC had not responded."

Dan Kane tweeted: "Looks like the NCAA wants to talk with Debby Crowder."

[sagegrouse]

See: http://www.newsobserver.com/sports/college/acc/unc/unc-now/article138618983.html (by Andrew Carter)

"The university has not yet responded to the NCAA Enforcement Staff’s third notice of allegations, a UNC spokeswoman wrote in an email on Wednesday, and now the university is “awaiting guidance from the committee on infractions on a new schedule.”

UNC’s 90-day deadline to respond to its latest notice of allegations (NOA) came and went on Monday without an update from the university about the status of its response. Joanne Peters, UNC’s media relations director, wrote on Wednesday that “in consultation” with the NCAA, UNC had not responded."

Dan Kane tweeted: "Looks like the NCAA wants to talk with Debby Crowder."

Instead of "survive and advance," it is "delay and advance." You can probably tell when the verdict will come down by the strangely coincidental -- NOT -- announcements of retirement by Roy, Bubba and Carol Folt.

[martydoesntfoul]

Instead of "survive and advance," it is "delay and advance." You can probably tell when the verdict will come down by the strangely coincidental -- NOT -- announcements of retirement by Roy, Bubba and Carol Folt.
Perfect! In that way, the next regime can proudly claim none of this nonsense took place on their watch, continuing a proud UNC-Hazardous Waste tradition!

[gotoguy]

UNC may have missed the deadline but Crowder didn't. Her response to NOA-3 is here (https://img.scout.com/sites/default/files/2017/03/09/2017.3.9%20-%20Letter%20to%20Jonathan%20Duncan%20-%20AS%20SENT_1.PDF). She says that Allegation 3 (that she didn't cooperate) should be regarded as moot because she is "considering cooperating." She was also mentioned in allegation 1 and said that this allegation was false because "The fact that thousands of non-athletes took these courses is conclusive proof that these courses were "generally available" to non-athletes." Furthermore, the courses were academically rigorous and "Thus, unless the student violated the Honor Pledge, the course was an academically rigorous course requiring many hours of thoughtful work."

I guess UNC was not required to tell anyone if they received a short extension. Nor are they required to hop to it in preparing their reply for release.

Crowder's response was drafted by Elliott Abrams a UNC grad working in Joe Cheshire's Raleigh firm.

[gam7]

Here's a more national (and critical) take in Forbes from a professor at Ohio University whose name I recognize (David Ridpath) on the Crowder developments. Worth a read. Didn't see it posted anywhere.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/bdavidridpath/2017/03/14/north-carolina-academic-fraud-case-takes-another-sorry-turn/#2e9ddca4136b

A few quotes:

"Considering we are in the throws of March Madness, it is amazing to think that this scandal still in many ways overshadows what the men's basketball Tar Heels are doing on the basketball court or will do as a number #1 seed in the upcoming NCAA men's basketball tournament."

"In her affidavit and impassioned defense from her attorney, Raleigh-based Elliot Abrams, Crowder now disputes the academically dearth quality of courses offered by the AFAM and says the NCAA has falsely charged her with wrongdoing. In fact, if one takes Crowder's words as gospel-there is not a scandal at all in any way, shape or form despite a myriad of reports that at least acknowledge an academic scandal. I guess the NCAA and UNC should just pack up and forget about this whole episode because there is nothing to see here. Crowder claims in a direct challenge to the NCAA and her own university that she didn't create courses to provide special assistance to athletes and both athletes and non-athletes "were treated equal" and had access to all of the courses through academic counselors. This is a strange stance to take considering the institution has already admitted to numerous academic problems related to the AFAM affair albeit while still fighting the athletic aspects with the NCAA. UNC even has a detailed Carolina Commitment website that shows the dozens of changes made by the university in response to things the university says were primarily driven in part by Crowder herself. However according to Crowder and her legal team, that seems to unnecessarily and falsely blame her because everything she did was in accordance with existing university policy. Hmmmm."

"Crowder is not only challenging findings of the NCAA and UNC. The Southern Association of Schools and Colleges Commission on Colleges (SACS), which accredits UNC, found the classes to be in violation of several standards and called them fraudulent despite the assertions now made by Crowder and her attorney. In 2015, SACS placed UNC on probation for a year which is the most serious sanction short of pulling full accreditation. This ugly story has gone on way too long and it is time for a resolution. Crowder's late posturing does not change the facts nor will it likely help North Carolina in any way. I think think it will only hurt their cause as it is only likely delaying the inevitable. People like Debbie Crowder trying to cover their own tracks is not helping this case end any time soon and it is only making it worse for such a fine institution."

[porcophile]

"Considering we are in the throws of March Madness, it is amazing to think that this scandal still in many ways overshadows what the men's basketball Tar Heels are doing on the basketball court or will do as a number #1 seed in the upcoming NCAA men's basketball tournament."

"The throws of March Madness" is up there with "beyond the pail", "tough road to hoe", and "tow the line." Homonyms are tricky things.

[camion]

"The throws of March Madness" is up there with "beyond the pail", "tough road to hoe", and "tow the line." Homonyms are tricky things.

Didn't HB2 outlaw homonyms?

[gam7]

"The throws of March Madness" is up there with "beyond the pail", "tough road to hoe", and "tow the line." Homonyms are tricky things.

I noticed that... It is possible that Ridpath's ghost writer is Balki Bartokomous from Perfect Strangers.

[swood1000]

Timeline:
NOA-1 May 20, 2015
NOA-2 April 25, 2016
NOA-3 December 13, 2016

It would be interesting to see if these dates marked any changes in UNC’s recruiting success. After NOA-1 Roy was still stating confidently that MBB was not mentioned and would not be affected by any sanctions. Then after NOA-2 it became a foregone conclusion that MBB would not be affected. After NOA-3 it started seriously looking like MBB is going to be receiving some sanctions. I guess the ones that would do the most damage would be post-season restrictions and recruiting limitations. It seems like the loss of past banners would pain the fan base more than discourage recruits, but I guess that just having been heavily sanctioned could be the deciding factor in close cases for some recruits, making the program seem a little risky.

[swood1000]

"The throws of March Madness" is up there with "beyond the pail", "tough road to hoe", and "tow the line." Homonyms are tricky things.
Other fun ones are sneak peak, deep-seeded, shoe-in, slight of hand, baited breath, wet your appetite.

[devildeac]

See: http://www.newsobserver.com/sports/college/acc/unc/unc-now/article138618983.html (by Andrew Carter)

"The university has not yet responded to the NCAA Enforcement Staff’s third notice of allegations, a UNC spokeswoman wrote in an email on Wednesday, and now the university is “awaiting guidance from the committee on infractions on a new schedule.”

UNC’s 90-day deadline to respond to its latest notice of allegations (NOA) came and went on Monday without an update from the university about the status of its response. Joanne Peters, UNC’s media relations director, wrote on Wednesday that “in consultation” with the NCAA, UNC had not responded."

Dan Kane tweeted: "Looks like the NCAA wants to talk with Debby Crowder."

Wouldn't make me very happy if I was on the COI and a prescribed 90D deadline had expired and the accused had a "no response" or "late response" they were entering. :mad:

[swood1000]

Wouldn't make me very happy if I was on the COI and a prescribed 90D deadline had expired and the accused had a "no response" or "late response" they were entering. :mad:

It's inconceivable that they didn't get an extension approved. The rule says that the approval must be by the chief hearing officer or the committee chair. Apparently they were told there would be an extension but were not told how long the extension would be. I guess it would make sense that if Crowder suddenly is going to cooperate that UNC be allowed to review that interview before submitting its response to NOA-3.


19.7.2 Responses by Institutions or Involved Individuals. Any response to the notice of allegations shall be submitted to the hearing panel, if assigned, and the enforcement staff, and pertinent portions to the institution and all involved individuals, not later than 90 days from the date of the notice of allegations unless the chief hearing officer, if assigned, and if not assigned, the committee chair, grants an extension. The enforcement staff may establish a deadline for the submission of responses to any reasonable time within the 90-day period, provided the institution and all involved individuals consent to the expedited deadline. Failure to submit a timely response may be viewed by the panel as an admission that the alleged violation(s) occurred.

[devildeac]

It's inconceivable that they didn't get an extension approved. The rule says that the approval must be by the chief hearing officer or the committee chair. Apparently they were told there would be an extension but were not told how long the extension would be. I guess it would make sense that if Crowder suddenly is going to cooperate that UNC be allowed to review that interview before submitting its response to NOA-3.

Many thanks. Again.

[oldnavy]

See: http://www.newsobserver.com/sports/college/acc/unc/unc-now/article138618983.html (by Andrew Carter)

"The university has not yet responded to the NCAA Enforcement Staff’s third notice of allegations, a UNC spokeswoman wrote in an email on Wednesday, and now the university is “awaiting guidance from the committee on infractions on a new schedule.”

UNC’s 90-day deadline to respond to its latest notice of allegations (NOA) came and went on Monday without an update from the university about the status of its response. Joanne Peters, UNC’s media relations director, wrote on Wednesday that “in consultation” with the NCAA, UNC had not responded."

Dan Kane tweeted: "Looks like the NCAA wants to talk with Debby Crowder."

Does anybody think that Deb's talking to the NCAA is going to help UNC?

I get the impression she is a bit delusional....

[PackMan97]

It's inconceivable that they didn't get an extension approved.

It's inconcievable that the "Public Ivy" ran a fake department to keep their elite athletes over the span of four decades...but they did.

Queue a quote from the Princess Bride.

[Dr. Rosenrosen]

It's inconceivable that they didn't get an extension approved. The rule says that the approval must be by the chief hearing officer or the committee chair. Apparently they were told there would be an extension but were not told how long the extension would be. I guess it would make sense that if Crowder suddenly is going to cooperate that UNC be allowed to review that interview before submitting its response to NOA-3.
So yet another well timed delay tactic to make sure nothing spoils their 2017 tourney run. Got it. Very respectable organization they're running over at the dump. Very respectable.

[LastRowFan]

Crowder's response (the lawyer's letter that swood shared) is amazing. One excerpt:

The courses were academically rigorous.

Writing a 15- or 20-page paper is a strenuous task. Collecting and reviewing source material alone takes hours and hours, as does organizing that information and developing interesting, unique perspectives on the collected material —all of which must occur before the student could even begin drafting the paper. Many college students never write a term paper. And, in Ms. Crowder’s experience, many students decided not to take these courses because they felt that taking multiple choice tests was less difficult than writing the required paper.

It is true that, over time, Professor Nyang’oro put an increasing burden of grading the papers on Ms. Crowder. However, she invariably ensured that the paper met the topic and length requirements, that it had appropriate citations and a properly formatted bibliography, and that the student signed the Honor Pledge.

Thus, unless the student violated the Honor Pledge, the course was an academically rigorous course requiring many hours of thoughtful work.


Really? That's a course? A whole course? No lectures, no assignments, nothing but copying and pasting stuff for a paper that everybody knows will never be read. Not strenuous, certainly not rigorous. Other courses were easier? What a sham!

If any or all students had access to these sham "courses," this is academic fraud, as UNC has previously admitted. Pointing athletes to fraudulent courses (see Bridger's presentation) to ensure eligibility is institutional misconduct, knowingly condoning the fraud. Taking a fraudulent course cannot possibly make a student-athlete eligible. This is not complicated. UNC, stop fighting this and preserve your (remaining) integrity.

This stuff infuriates me for many reasons and the Duke-UNC rivalry is not one of them.

End of rant.

[Duke79UNLV77]

Crowder's response (the lawyer's letter that swood shared) is amazing. One excerpt:

The courses were academically rigorous.

Writing a 15- or 20-page paper is a strenuous task. Collecting and reviewing source material alone takes hours and hours, as does organizing that information and developing interesting, unique perspectives on the collected material —all of which must occur before the student could even begin drafting the paper. Many college students never write a term paper. And, in Ms. Crowder’s experience, many students decided not to take these courses because they felt that taking multiple choice tests was less difficult than writing the required paper.

It is true that, over time, Professor Nyang’oro put an increasing burden of grading the papers on Ms. Crowder. However, she invariably ensured that the paper met the topic and length requirements, that it had appropriate citations and a properly formatted bibliography, and that the student signed the Honor Pledge.

Thus, unless the student violated the Honor Pledge, the course was an academically rigorous course requiring many hours of thoughtful work.


Really? That's a course? A whole course? No lectures, no assignments, nothing but copying and pasting stuff for a paper that everybody knows will never be read. Not strenuous, certainly not rigorous. Other courses were easier? What a sham!

If any or all students had access to these sham "courses," this is academic fraud, as UNC has previously admitted. Pointing athletes to fraudulent courses (see Bridger's presentation) to ensure eligibility is institutional misconduct, knowingly condoning the fraud. Taking a fraudulent course cannot possibly make a student-athlete eligible. This is not complicated. UNC, stop fighting this and preserve your (remaining) integrity.

This stuff infuriates me for many reasons and the Duke-UNC rivalry is not one of them.

End of rant.

The truth is in the transcripts. How did McCants and Peppers do in the "rigorous" courses compared to other courses? How did others do? They've got emails showing the intent. Interview that football player who called into the radio show about taking courses with basketball players. The COI would have to be incredibly gullible or complicit to believe Crowder otherwise,they could just get angrier.

[porcophile]

Crowder's response (the lawyer's letter that swood shared) is amazing. One excerpt:
[INDENT]The courses were academically rigorous.

Writing a 15- or 20-page paper is a strenuous task. Collecting and reviewing source material alone takes hours and hours, as does organizing that information and developing interesting, unique perspectives on the collected material —all of which must occur before the student could even begin drafting the paper. Many college students never write a term paper.

So how many hours, total, does a regular, not independent-study course require? A three-hour course obviously requires three class-hours a week, for starters, plus time devoted to assigned reading, research for papers, reviewing for tests, etc. When I was an undergraduate – admittedly, before the Flood – the rule of thumb was two hours outside of class for every hour in it. That would mean a 45-hour work week, given a normal five-course load, which sounds about right.
Granted, college has been dumbed down since my day, so let’s say just one hour of preparation per hour in class – that is, six hours a week per class (a 30-hour work week). Under that assumption, and given a 14-week semester, a three-hour course would require a total of 84 hours.
Surely, there's nothing "strenuous" about writing even a non-plagiarized 15- or 20-page paper in that time.

[OldPhiKap]

From the PowerPoint shown to the football coaches:


“We put them in classes that met degree requirements in which ... they didn’t go to class ... they didn’t have to take notes, have to stay awake ... they didn’t have to meet with professors ... they didn’t have to pay attention or necessarily engage with the material,” a slide in the presentation said. “THESE NO LONGER EXIST!”

"UNC rigor -- as flaccid as their defense"

Oh, and this gem:

7272


(Cite: https://www.nytimes.com/2014/10/23/sports/university-of-north-carolina-investigation-reveals-shadow-curriculum-to-help-athletes.html?_r=0 )

And the big conclusion of the article:


One thing was made abundantly clear in the report: The fake classes went a long way toward helping athletes overwhelmed by academic demands remain eligible to play on the Tar Heels teams.

“In the case of 329 students, the grade they received in a paper class provided the G.P.A. boost that either kept or pushed their G.P.A. above the 2.0 level for a semester,” the report said. Of those students, 169 were athletes: 123 football players, 15 men’s basketball players, eight women’s basketball players and 26 athletes from other sports.

In the fall of 2009, the first semester in more than a decade without Ms. Crowder’s paper classes, the football team recorded its lowest grade-point average in 10 years, 2.121, the report said.

[dukebluesincebirth]

To those more informed on the happenings of this (ongoing and ongoing and ongoing) case: What is the point of Crowder doing this? Is this just very simply a delay tactic that probably won't impact the overall case at all? Is there a potential bombshell or pivotal piece of info she could provide? It seems ridiculous that they can be allowed to delay delay delay to this absurd extent. When does it end? Does it end? I didn't think they should've been competing in LAST year's NCAAT, now here we are again. Then the ignorant UNC fans want to tell me the NCAA keeps drawing it out and it's killing their recruiting. SMH.

[Nosbleuatu]

It's hard to see how she could be acting on her own without some input from UNC. I'm assuming the strategy is to simply delay by providing new evidence that has to be looked at but changes nothing (fool me once shame on you, fool me twice...), or to emphasize the argument that this is all the result of a rogue staff member who was just misguided (and please don't read the Emails that indicate otherwise).

[wsb3]

Then the ignorant UNC fans want to tell me the NCAA keeps drawing it out and it's killing their recruiting. SMH.

Delusional...Denial...Pick one or both for the UNC fan.

[Dr. Rosenrosen]

It's hard to see the angles on this. It seems nearly everyone is confused about the intent here. The most logical conclusion is that she has been approached to "do her duty" for UNC basketball one last time and is getting well paid to generate one more delay. Why else would she be motivated to swim upstream against a river of evidence against her?

Unless she is just trying to avoid having the term "crowdered" become the real life version of "munsoned."

[OldPhiKap]

Could be that she's trying to clear her name for her own reasons. Dunno.

[sammy3469]

It's hard to see the angles on this. It seems nearly everyone is confused about the intent here. The most logical conclusion is that she has been approached to "do her duty" for UNC basketball one last time and is getting well paid to generate one more delay. Why else would she be motivated to swim upstream against a river of evidence against her?

Unless she is just trying to avoid having the term "crowdered" become the real life version of "munsoned."

The real reason may be to muddy the waters in the penalty phase as it could allow them to submit a more limited response to the NCAA request under 19.9.7-(g). I doubt it ultimately changes the COI findings or forward looking penalties, but it may give them some wiggle room in any discussions with the NCAA on which SAs actually got extra benefits and thus were ineligible or which programs received benefits.

[BigWayne]

It's hard to see the angles on this. It seems nearly everyone is confused about the intent here. The most logical conclusion is that she has been approached to "do her duty" for UNC basketball one last time and is getting well paid to generate one more delay. Why else would she be motivated to swim upstream against a river of evidence against her?

Unless she is just trying to avoid having the term "crowdered" become the real life version of "munsoned."

It makes no sense at all. Any amount of logical reasoning will fail. Look at the letter from her lawyer (https://img.scout.com/sites/default/files/2017/03/09/2017.3.9%20-%20Letter%20to%20Jonathan%20Duncan%20-%20AS%20SENT_1.PDF). There are just outright lies in it that can be refuted by the Wainstein documents already on the internet. Somebody is paying this lawyer (from a respectable firm) to spout this stuff for some reason, but I have no idea what it could be.

[Tom B.]

Could be that she's trying to clear her name for her own reasons. Dunno.

Yeah. To me, the Occam's Razor explanation says she's done caring about UNC (which threw her and Nyang'oro under the bus) and this is all about saving/protecting her own name.

Like I said above, I think this complicates things for UNC more than it helps them. I can see the COI coming back to UNC after taking Crowder's account and saying, "OK, she says there was no fraud and the classes were legit, but you've acknowledged since 2014 that the classes were a sham. Which is it, and if you're now changing your account to be consistent with hers and claiming the classes were legit, then: (i) why the change after 2.5 years, (ii) does this mean you're now disavowing your own internal investigation and everything you said to SACS, and (iii) care to explain this PowerPoint slide?"

It's not hard to see how this could get uncomfortable fast for UNC. My guess is they come out with some mealy-mouthed say-nothing statement that says something like, "Ms. Crowder speaks for herself, and UNC stands by its prior statements and positions. Any questions regarding Ms. Crowder's statements should be directed to her or her counsel."

[wsb3]

Yeah. To me, the Occam's Razor explanation says she's done caring about UNC (which threw her and Nyang'oro under the bus) and this is all about saving/protecting her own name.
"

I would love for this to be right but I don't think so. The timing of this just leads me to believe it is another way to delay. I still hold out hope that one rat starts turning on the others & those that are being paid to keep quiet start spilling..If Crowder spilled her guts that would be great but I won't get my hopes up.

[OldPhiKap]

I would love for this to be right but I don't think so. The timing of this just leads me to believe it is another way to delay. I still hold out hope that one rat starts turning on the others & those that are being paid to keep quiet start spilling..If Crowder spilled her guts that would be great but I won't get my hopes up.

Maybe. The other day WAS her deadline to respond though, so it could well be that she's trying to clear her name.

Unless UNC paid her a wampum sum, I don't know why she would be loyal to them at this point.

[wsb3]

Unless UNC paid her a wampum sum

What's a few more million to the Cheats to hang on to the banners..😃

[OldPhiKap]

What's a few more million to the Cheats to hang on to the banners..😃

Some would say that bribing a witness is a no-no.

If it happened, of course.

[swood1000]

Some would say that bribing a witness is a no-no.

If it happened, of course.
They are no doubt able to accomplish many things by way of numerous levels of indirection, greatly reducing their chances of being implicated. A booster contacts her anonymously with an envelope full of cash to show that he's serious.

[UNCfan]

Of course, speculation like this is against forum rules, right? :confused:

[Indoor66]

Of course, speculation like this is against forum rules, right? :confused:

Probably not on this subject.

[Dr. Rosenrosen]

Of course, speculation like this is against forum rules, right? :confused:
Not according to section 9f of the DBR handbook.

[devildeac]

http://www.newsobserver.com/news/local/education/unc-scandal/article140688913.html

Dan Kane is writing some more. Opening paragraph:


"Newly released legal bills show UNC’s costs related to the long-running academic-athletic scandal are approaching $18 million."

And those vermin are still playing in the NCAAT this season.

:mad:

[wsb3]

I had speculated earlier as to the amount of attorney fees.. $18 million...

There is no shame in Chapel Hill...at least among those that run the school.. I like the DBR comments about what that $$$ could have done for students who needed the help..

WOW!!!!

[hudlow]

From The N&O article:


"UNC officials say none of the money to pay the bills is coming from tuition or state appropriations."

As a certified NC taxpayer, I believe I deserve to know where this money is coming from, not where it's not coming from.

[wsb3]

From The N&O article:



As a certified NC taxpayer, I believe I deserve to know where this money is coming from, not where it's not coming from.

I agree.

[Pghdukie]

I agree.

As a NC resident, you are entitled to know where this $$$ is coming from/going to. Someone can file a "Right to Know" petition. You might be surprised by the outcome !

[CameronBornAndBred]

As a NC resident, you are entitled to know where this $$$ is coming from/going to. Someone can file a "Right to Know" petition. You might be surprised by the outcome !
Parking tickets?

[Reddevil]

As a NC resident, you are entitled to know where this $$$ is coming from/going to. Someone can file a "Right to Know" petition. You might be surprised by the outcome !

I smell a FOIA request. Hopefully someone will do it and make them present where that $$$ is coming from.

[-jk]

I smell a FOIA request. Hopefully someone will do it and make them present where that $$$ is coming from.

This (http://publicrecords.unc.edu/public-records/) is always a fun site to check in on now and again...

-jk

[swood1000]

As a certified NC taxpayer, I believe I deserve to know where this money is coming from, not where it's not coming from.
That kind of money is pocket change given the size of their endowment.

http://forums.dukebasketballreport.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=7295&stc=1

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

That kind of money is pocket change given the size of their endowment.

http://forums.dukebasketballreport.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=7295&stc=1

Ugh - suffering through this weekend is bad enough without learning how well-endowed UNC is

[CDu]

Ugh - suffering through this weekend is bad enough without learning how well-endowed UNC is

To be fair, that is the endowment of the entire UNC system. So all of the state's public schools.

[sagegrouse]

To be fair, that is the endowment of the entire UNC system. So all of the state's public schools.

While the UNC Chapel Hill endowment is overstated, the endowment funds for Duke are understated. Left out is The Duke Endowment, funded on Mr. Duke's death in 1925. It is today worth over three billion ($3.35 as of Dec. 2015). Traditionally about one-half of the income goes to Duke University. In fact, Duke University endowment funds and The Duke Endowment are managed as one fund, with (presumably) the results split equitably at the end of the year.

Counting one-half of The Duke Endowment gives Duke total endowment funds of about $8.5 billion ($9 billion at end 2015). This measure puts Duke around 12th among universities in the United States, all private schools except for the U. of Texas and Texas A&M systems. Leaving out The Duke Endowment places Duke at 15th.

[hudlow]

Here's the scenario...uNC wins a Natty and The NCAA takes a previous one away.

Current players aren't punished.

And the rest is swept under the rug.

Back to The Carolina Way.

[swood1000]

To be fair, that is the endowment of the entire UNC system. So all of the state's public schools.

This listing (http://www.nacubo.org/Documents/EndowmentFiles/2016-Endowment-Market-Values.pdf) has the UNC Chapel Hill endowment at $2.89 billion in 2016, putting them at #32 nationally. Looks like almost all the endowments dropped in value from 2015 to 2016. The $18 million in legal fees would be 0.006 of UNC's endowment. Basically, a rounding error.

[LastRowFan]

A new News and Observer editorial:

The high cost of denial at UNC-CH

http://www.newsobserver.com/opinion/editorials/article141090663.html

Short and sweet:

Sadly, this public institution, which ought to feel an obligation to report to the taxpayers, has acted more like a private business engaged in damage control. From the beginning, news organizations have had to fight for what is public information, and the university has tried to cast the story as a minor one exaggerated by the press. That’s always a suspicious tactic, and most of the time — including this time — it doesn’t work.

That the money for millions in legal fees doesn’t come directly from the pockets of taxpayers is little consolation — and no excuse.

[PackMan97]

To be fair, that is the endowment of the entire UNC system. So all of the state's public schools.

I'm pretty sure the $3 billion is just for UNC-Cheat.

I know is that State has crap for an endowment and we are the second most well endowed in the UNC system. Carolina far and away has the biggest endowment. I think State might be somewhere around $800 million last I heard.

[75Crazie]

As usual, PP finds it first, yet another story you will see nowhere on the mother ship's site: http://www.foxsports.com/college-basketball/story/north-carolina-tar-heels-academic-scandal-final-four-roy-williams-032817 .

[hallcity]

While the UNC Chapel Hill endowment is overstated, the endowment funds for Duke are understated. Left out is The Duke Endowment, funded on Mr. Duke's death in 1925. It is today worth over three billion ($3.35 as of Dec. 2015). Traditionally about one-half of the income goes to Duke University. In fact, Duke University endowment funds and The Duke Endowment are managed as one fund, with (presumably) the results split equitably at the end of the year.

Counting one-half of The Duke Endowment gives Duke total endowment funds of about $8.5 billion ($9 billion at end 2015). This measure puts Duke around 12th among universities in the United States, all private schools except for the U. of Texas and Texas A&M systems. Leaving out The Duke Endowment places Duke at 15th.

And that leaves out the value of Duke University Health Care Systems which already owns several hospitals and is rapidly gobbling up medical practices in NC. It's way more than an academic medical center. It's value certainly dwarfs the endowment and there's no doubt it's throwing off lots of profits. In theory it could be spun off for billions. Some of Duke's peers have similar health care investments and some don't. It's not clear how Duke's health care holdings compare to its peers who have made similar investments.

[Dr. Rosenrosen]

I didn't know exactly where to make note of this realization but thought it was ironically appropriate...

When I type the letters "U" "N" and "C" in consecutive order, my computer (well, at least Chrome) does not recognize it as legitimate. How appropriate.

(Hopefully this makes up for my indirect support of the cheats in the UNC-KY thread :cool:)

[crimsondevil]

This listing (http://www.nacubo.org/Documents/EndowmentFiles/2016-Endowment-Market-Values.pdf) has the UNC Chapel Hill endowment at $2.89 billion in 2016, putting them at #32 nationally. Looks like almost all the endowments dropped in value from 2015 to 2016. The $18 million in legal fees would be 0.006 of UNC's endowment. Basically, a rounding error.

The annual spending for the endowment is normally between 4 and 7% (link (http://college.unc.edu/foundation/about-our-endowment/)), so the $18M is between 9% and 16% of the annual endowment spending, although the fees are spread over 6 years or so. But that's not necessarily a good measure - the total annual revenue for UNC-Chapel Hill is ~$2.5B (unless changed a lot since 2012-link (http://universityrelations.unc.edu/budget/documents/2013/2012_revenuepiechart.pptx)), so the fees are a small proportion of that number. BUT a lot of that goes to pretty set costs (grants and contracts, salaries, etc), so it would require a much deeper dive to really figure out how much of a burden the fees are.


And that leaves out the value of Duke University Health Care Systems which already owns several hospitals and is rapidly gobbling up medical practices in NC. It's way more than an academic medical center. It's value certainly dwarfs the endowment and there's no doubt it's throwing off lots of profits. In theory it could be spun off for billions. Some of Duke's peers have similar health care investments and some don't. It's not clear how Duke's health care holdings compare to its peers who have made similar investments.

Maybe this is point you're trying to make, but the endowment is an investment fund, not the net worth of the institution. FWIW, the 2015/16 Duke Financial Statement (link (https://finance.duke.edu/resources/docs/financial_reports.pdf)) gives the total net assets, including DUHS, as $12B. The annual University Operating Revenues and Expenses are similar to UNC, about $2.6B.

[NSDukeFan]

What thread number is this for the scandal to top all scandals? Is it six or seven?
If you added all the dmnc* scandal threads together, would they match last year's election thread?

Inquiring minds want to know, with sporks available. (Actually, I know of only one inquiring mind that wants to know and I don't like it when other posters lump people together and say "here's how a bunch of us, or most of us, feel")

*diploma mill of North Carolina?

[CameronBlue]

What thread number is this for the scandal to top all scandals? Is it six or seven?
If you added all the dmnc* scandal threads together, would they match last year's election thread?

Inquiring minds want to know, with sporks available. (Actually, I know of only one inquiring mind that wants to know and I don't like it when other posters lump people together and say "here's how a bunch of us, or most of us, feel")

*diploma mill of North Carolina?

Don't apologize, it's vicariously cathartic.

[Ultrarunner]

News on the lawsuit by McAdoo and McBee - http://www.newsobserver.com/sports/college/acc/unc/article141602394.html

[-jk]

News on the lawsuit by McAdoo and McBee - http://www.newsobserver.com/sports/college/acc/unc/article141602394.html

I'll say it again - they're gonna skate...

-jk

[devil84]

What thread number is this for the scandal to top all scandals? Is it six or seven?
If you added all the dmnc* scandal threads together, would they match last year's election thread?

Inquiring minds want to know, with sporks available. (Actually, I know of only one inquiring mind that wants to know and I don't like it when other posters lump people together and say "here's how a bunch of us, or most of us, feel")

*diploma mill of North Carolina?

I searched for threads with "UNC" or "Carolina" and "Scandal" in the title (not case sensitive). I verified that all the thread titles were about the scandal, including the original football scandal. I don't have time to do others, like checking all "scandal" thread titles (there are a lot) or for synonyms or euphemisms for UNC. I came up with 40 threads and just shy of 7,500 posts.

The Presidential Election thread had 16,437 posts.

[sagegrouse]

I'll say it again - they're gonna skate...

-jk

OK, I hear you, but this is a totally different deal -- a lawsuit in federal court. The other is a disciplinary proceeding in a private organization where UNC has agreed to submit to the disciplinary proceedings and which has provided UNC hundreds of millions of dollars of direct benefits.

[Ultrarunner]

I'll say it again - they're gonna skate...

-jk

I'm hoping that this leaves the NCAA on the hook. Disliking the position UNC put them in, they drop a meteor on the Heap to prove that they do care about academics. This, I admit, is wishful thinking.

[Ultrarunner]

I searched for threads with "UNC" or "Carolina" and "Scandal" in the title (not case sensitive). I verified that all the thread titles were about the scandal, including the original football scandal. I don't have time to do others, like checking all "scandal" thread titles (there are a lot) or for synonyms or euphemisms for UNC. I came up with 40 threads and just shy of 7,500 posts.

The Presidential Election thread had 16,437 posts.

We're going to need to up our game, folks. On the other hand, with the progress we're making toward a resolution, this thread will pass the 2016 PE thread in 2032.

[PackMan97]

News on the lawsuit by McAdoo and McBee - http://www.newsobserver.com/sports/college/acc/unc/article141602394.html

As I understood the law, this was basically a foregone conclusion. To the legal eagles on the forum, are there anything new with this ruling?

[swood1000]

OK, I hear you, but this is a totally different deal -- a lawsuit in federal court. The other is a disciplinary proceeding in a private organization where UNC has agreed to submit to the disciplinary proceedings and which has provided UNC hundreds of millions of dollars of direct benefits.
Right, it's apples and oranges. And the court didn't even find that UNC was not liable, just that it couldn't be sued by McAdoo in federal court. He'll have to do it in state court.

[Ima Facultiwyfe]

Unleashed the ire of the big blue nation! I've always thought the Illini should sue for revenue lost in that illegally won championship game.

http://www.nationofblue.com/illinois-writer-on-unc-any-school-that-would-commit-academic-fraud-for-18-years-deserves-the-title/#respond
Love, Ima

[PackMan97]

Right, it's apples and oranges. And the court didn't even find that UNC was not liable, just that it couldn't be sued by McAdoo in federal court. He'll have to do it in state court.

In state court, with judges who most likely either attended UNC as an undergrad or for law school (or both)...and refuse to recuse themselves. Good luck with that.

[BigWayne]

Unleashed the ire of the big blue nation! I've always thought the Illini should sue for revenue lost in that illegally won championship game.

http://www.nationofblue.com/illinois-writer-on-unc-any-school-that-would-commit-academic-fraud-for-18-years-deserves-the-title/#respond
Love, Ima

Source article with full text from the Illinois writer. (http://www.news-gazette.com/sports/illini-sports/mens-basketball/2017-03-28/tate-tar-heels-humming-along-without-ncaa-consequenc)

[JonnyWonder]

Good to see UNC is getting some very, very critical national news coverage around the scandal and UNC's return to the FF. Great recap of the story so far to an audience that is likely not following closely.

North Carolina’s Dominance Fails to Cover Cheating’s Stain (https://www.nytimes.com/2017/03/31/sports/ncaabasketball/north-carolina-final-four-cheating-fake-classes.html?_r=0)

Some choice quotes by NYT's Michael Powell:


University officials take great umbrage at this. They claim to have investigated thoroughly. This is nonsense. I waded through their reports, and it was like watching a reluctant striptease.


It’s important to stop here and bow in the direction of one newspaper, The News & Observer in Raleigh, N.C., and its reporter on the story, Dan Kane, who took to the scent like the finest of bloodhounds. He exposed nearly every corruption, including the emails mentioned here.



In October 2014, reporters asked Williams about the N.C.A.A. investigation. He sighed.

“It’s been a pain in the rear end,” he said. “I feel strongly, strongly, that we did things the right way.”

He was strongly incorrect. Then again, he makes $2 million a year and got more than $500,000 for making it to the Final Four. So what do I know?

[wallyman]

Fabulous job on telling the sordid tale with generous
credit to Kane and the N@O for the invaluable work
they've done.

[TKG]

As DBR mentions in its front page commentary on the Times article, two decades of cheating and almost one decade of lying about it, pardon me if I yawn. Nothing will happen to Orange County Community College. Nothing!

[Ima Facultiwyfe]

As DBR mentions in its front page commentary on the Times article, two decades of cheating and almost one decade of lying about it, pardon me if I yawn. Nothing will happen to Orange County Community College. Nothing!

You're giving community colleges a bad name.
Love, Ima

[LastRowFan]

Bump. All of this talk of the Cheats playing for "redemption" makes me want this scandal back on the front page of the forum.

[MChambers]

Bump. All of this talk of the Cheats playing for "redemption" makes me want this scandal back on the front page of the forum.
It's ridiculous how little coverage the scandal is getting. Luckily, the NY Times did the right thing. Whenever any of my annoying UNC friends pesters me about the Final Four, I just send them the link. One of UNC friends (not the annoying kind) sent me the link, saying "this is why I don't root for UNC basketball." She gets it.

[jdc75]

Bump. All of this talk of the Cheats playing for "redemption" makes me want this scandal back on the front page of the forum.

What kills me about the "redemption" thing is that it implies that 'Nova somehow unjustly stole the game. They completely earned their title on a brilliantly designed play that was only necessary because of the lucky circus shot made seconds before to TIE the game by Marcus Paige.

[Duke79UNLV77]

Bump. I loathe the NCAA almost as much as the Cheats.

[BLPOG]

Obviously it's unlikely we could ever get the precise figure, but I wonder if it would be possible to submit a North Carolina FOIA request to determine the number of tickets Debbie Crowder was gifted?

[elvis14]

As of tonight. None of it matter. They got away with it. Cheating I'm a real wanker for saying this.I'm a real wanker for saying this.I'm a real wanker for saying this.I'm a real wanker for saying this.ers.

[Rich]

Not sure if this article was posted yet, but at least the story is getting some real attention now.

https://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/columnist/nancy-armour/2017/04/02/cloud-ncaa-investigation-still-hangs-over-north-carolina/99962490/

[moonpie23]

Not sure if this article was posted yet, but at least the story is getting some real attention now.

https://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/columnist/nancy-armour/2017/04/02/cloud-ncaa-investigation-still-hangs-over-north-carolina/99962490/

it won't make any difference......they are back on top....

[UrinalCake]

it won't make any difference...they are back on top...

Yep... even if the NCAA does the unthinkable and actually takes down their 2005 and/or 2009 banners, CHeat fans won't care one bit. They are on top of the world and could care less how they got there. They'll simply point to their 2017 banner and crow about how they're the best. Decades of cheating are irrelevant as long as you win.

And on top of that, any post-season bans would likely begin in a season they will struggle to make the tournament anyways.

[dukelifer]

Yep... even if the NCAA does the unthinkable and actually takes down their 2005 and/or 2009 banners, CHeat fans won't care one bit. They are on top of the world and could care less how they got there. They'll simply point to their 2017 banner and crow about how they're the best. Decades of cheating are irrelevant as long as you win.

And on top of that, any post-season bans would likely begin in a season they will struggle to make the tournament anyways.

It is true today but it will fade quickly. Weren't Duke fans critical of this season even though they were on the top of world in 2015? When the NCAA acts - the UNC fans will be reminded of what it took for them to be on the top. They may appreciate this title more because it was after the academic fraud but the NCAA actions will sting pretty hard.

[ClosetHurleyFan]

What kills me about the "redemption" thing is that it implies that 'Nova somehow unjustly stole the game. They completely earned their title on a brilliantly designed play that was only necessary because of the lucky circus shot made seconds before to TIE the game by Marcus Paige.

Sometimes this board overthinks things. All I read in redemption is them wanting to redeem for having failed to win it last year. No one is disputiing, I have certainly not heard any fellow Carolina fans say nova didn't win it legit. They clearly did. But Carolina clearly wanted to get back to finish the deal. And they did.

Great group of kids. Ugly game but they dug down and got it done when they had to.

[Atlanta Duke]

Roy still will not let it go - this from his presser after the championship win

“I know that we did nothing wrong,’’ Williams said at his postgame news conference. “I know that I did nothing wrong. I've been investigated 77 times, it seems like. And everybody came to that conclusion...

“It's been harder to recruit,’’ he said. “We've lost about everybody that we tried because the sensationalism of the newspapers."

https://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/columnist/nancy-armour/2017/04/02/cloud-ncaa-investigation-still-hangs-over-north-carolina/99962490/

"Everybody" came to the conclusion UNC did nothing wrong?:confused:

Maybe Roy can start saying it is fake news

[Dr. Rosenrosen]

Roy's epitaph?

“We did nothing wrong, OK? That's just the best way to put it... Were there some mistakes made? You're darned right there were. Were there some things I wish hadn't happened? You're darned right. But there were no allegations against men's basketball.”

[dukebluesincebirth]

So now that the NCAA has given unc two years to win a championship while they looked the other way, what happens next? Are they now allowed to punish them as they've punished other universities in the past two years? Or do we need to give them a chance to go back to back before enforcing any rules? Just wondering..

[Tjenkins]

"“It’s very disillusioning to live through the last six years here. The university is operating like a crime family, and it shows the lengths to which they will go to protect their athletic machine.”

-Jay M. Smith, UNC History Prof., author of Cheated: The UNC Scandal, the Education of Athletes, and the Future of Big-Time College Sports

[OldPhiKap]

The bastards got away with it.

Disgusting.

Watch -- in a month or two, after everyone declares for the pros, they'll self-impose as part of a watered-down weak-arsed plea bargain. Betcha dollars to doughnuts.

[TruBlu]

unc is now the Reigning National Cheaters. Next year they will be the Defending National Cheaters.

In summary, they are the All Time National Cheaters.

GTHC, and stay there for eternity.

[Dr. Rosenrosen]

Another take with commentary on the broader student-athlete issue... but in general another scathing indictment of the cheats...

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/ncaa-basketball-north-carolina-student-athletes-scandal_us_58e2ac18e4b03a26a3652cf6

[duke4ever19]

I don't know where to put this, so I'll leave it here:

In the well-written article on the aftermath of UNC championship (and the still looming scandal), the following observation was made: "39% [of the student-athletes] were found to be learning disabled and/or have attention deficit hyperactivity disorder.”
Someone in the comments section pointed out that people diagnosed as having ADHD are sometimes prescribed Adderall (amphetamine).

As most of you know, Adderall increases alertness and concentration, can mask pain and mental fatigue, along with other benefits which make this a very tempting drug to take for athletes wanting a competitive edge.
However, the NCAA (along with pro sports like NBA, NFL, MLB) has banned this drug, but the NCAA has also stated that exceptions can be made with proper documentation etc.

So, I have a couple questions:

1) Is there any way to know if UNC petitioned the NCAA to allow this inordinately large group of ADHD-diagnosed student-athletes to take adderall? If so,

2) Is there a way to know if they were successful? If so,

3) Is there a way to know if what percentage of these diagnosed students came from the various sports under investigation?

I don't think this falls under "rumor mongering," because I am making no positive assertions, or claiming I know something, but I am wondering to what extent this particular matter was pursued, if at all.

[devildeac]

I don't know where to put this, so I'll leave it here:

In the well-written article on the aftermath of UNC championship (and the still looming scandal), the following observation was made: "39% [of the student-athletes] were found to be learning disabled and/or have attention deficit hyperactivity disorder.”
Someone in the comments section pointed out that people diagnosed as having ADHD are sometimes prescribed Adderall (amphetamine).

As most of you know, Adderall increases alertness and concentration, can mask pain and mental fatigue, along with other benefits which make this a very tempting drug to take for athletes wanting a competitive edge.
However, the NCAA (along with pro sports like NBA, NFL, MLB) has banned this drug, but the NCAA has also stated that exceptions can be made with proper documentation etc.

So, I have a couple questions:

1) Is there any way to know if UNC petitioned the NCAA to allow this inordinately large group of ADHD-diagnosed student-athletes to take adderall? If so,

2) Is there a way to know if they were successful? If so,

3) Is there a way to know if what percentage of these diagnosed students came from the various sports under investigation?

I don't think this falls under "rumor mongering," because I am making no positive assertions, or claiming I know something, but I am wondering to what extent this particular matter was pursued, if at all.

Partial answer, at least to promote some additional discussion.

1) I don't know but I thought the cheaters may have their %age closer to the 60% range, based on some older discussions here.

2) I guess they were as the won the NCAAT this year :mad:.

3) Can't answer this one.

I believe PackMan97 published some charts/graphs here recently. I'd bet he'd be willing to help bash the conniving bastards some more, as always ;).

I also recall some discussion here ~1-2 years ago about unc student(cough)-athletes being "coached" to fail the testing for ADD/ADHD so they could receive the stimulant drugs. That's the % above to which I'm referring in the 60ish range, IIRC.

I doubt the NCAA will ever touch this one. Ever. Just another way to cheat.

[Dr. Rosenrosen]

Partial answer, at least to promote some additional discussion.

1) I don't know but I thought the cheaters may have their %age closer to the 60% range, based on some older discussions here.

2) I guess they were as the won the NCAAT this year :mad:.

3) Can't answer this one.

I believe PackMan97 published some charts/graphs here recently. I'd bet he'd be willing to help bash the conniving bastards some more, as always ;).

I also recall some discussion here ~1-2 years ago about unc student(cough)-athletes being "coached" to fail the testing for ADD/ADHD so they could receive the stimulant drugs. That's the % above to which I'm referring in the 60ish range, IIRC.

I doubt the NCAA will ever touch this one. Ever. Just another way to cheat.
The assertion was that they were coached to fail the test so they could receive added benefits such as note takers, tutors, etc. I think the question about Adderall usage came up as more of an unproven (impossible to prove?) sidebar issue. But one that seemed perfectly consistent with the kind of cheating those bastards would engage in at the expense of those kids.

[BigWayne]

The assertion was that they were coached to fail the test so they could receive added benefits such as note takers, tutors, etc. I think the question about Adderall usage came up as more of an unproven (impossible to prove?) sidebar issue. But one that seemed perfectly consistent with the kind of cheating those bastards would engage in at the expense of those kids.

There were documents in the redacted material released by UNC in response to FOIA requests that had lists of athletes and their Adderall dosages. I could find it in less than 30 minutes if I were to hunt for it.

[duke4ever19]

Thanks for the replies/stabs at answering.

I fear that this is another potential loophole in the system and I would love to find out to what extent this matter has been pursued by journalists.

I wonder if there is a way to compare the percentage of declared/reported learning disabilities amongst universities in the ranks of its student-athlete with UNC's 39%?

Was UNC forced to reveal this statistic, or can anybody find this out?

Such learning disabilities do pose a real problem/road block for otherwise competent individuals to engage in academic pursuits, but UNC's inordinately high number of student-athletes with this issue is alarming to me.

[billy]

Thanks for the replies/stabs at answering.

I fear that this is another potential loophole in the system and I would love to find out to what extent this matter has been pursued by journalists.

I wonder if there is a way to compare the percentage of declared/reported learning disabilities amongst universities in the ranks of its student-athlete with UNC's 39%?

Was UNC forced to reveal this statistic, or can anybody find this out?

Such learning disabilities do pose a real problem/road block for otherwise competent individuals to engage in academic pursuits, but UNC's inordinately high number of student-athletes with this issue is alarming to me.

This has been documented thoroughly by Ted Tatos on Twitter. Search @tedtatos ADHD on Google for quick access to the information.

The problem is that the NCAA is never going to touch an area over which they have very little jurisdiction, if any, such as in the case where a student athlete is evaluated then prescribed medication by a medical provider.

As noted above, they were quite proud of their findings of new diagnosis of ADHD in 60% of their student athletes and talked about publishing the data.

There has been quite a bit of discussion about their use of IMPACT testing as their criterion for determining whether someone had ADHD.

IMPACT testing is used for concussion monitoring and is not a standard, recognized test for making a ADHD diagnosis. Again, this is covered in detail in the Twitter account noted above.

[Dr. Rosenrosen]

It occurs to me that now would be an interesting time for McCants to make all that money he wanted by writing a book... oh, right, never mind.

[devildeac]

The assertion was that they were coached to fail the test so they could receive added benefits such as note takers, tutors, etc. I think the question about Adderall usage came up as more of an unproven (impossible to prove?) sidebar issue. But one that seemed perfectly consistent with the kind of cheating those bastards would engage in at the expense of those kids.


There were documents in the redacted material released by UNC in response to FOIA requests that had lists of athletes and their Adderall dosages. I could find it in less than 30 minutes if I were to hunt for it.

Thanks to both of you!

[moonpie23]

It occurs to me that now would be an interesting time for McCants to make all that money he wanted by writing a book... oh, right, never mind.

don't you think he's already made "all that money" from NOT writing the book?

[mailman2927]

This has been documented thoroughly by Ted Tatos on Twitter. Search @tedtatos ADHD on Google for quick access to the information.

The problem is that the NCAA is never going to touch an area over which they have very little jurisdiction, if any, such as in the case where a student athlete is evaluated then prescribed medication by a medical provider.

As noted above, they were quite proud of their findings of new diagnosis of ADHD in 60% of their student athletes and talked about publishing the data.

There has been quite a bit of discussion about their use of IMPACT testing as their criterion for determining whether someone had ADHD.

IMPACT testing is used for concussion monitoring and is not a standard, recognized test for making a ADHD diagnosis. Again, this is covered in detail in the Twitter account noted above.

NCAA had no jurisdiction over PSU according to their own by-laws and they absolutely hammered them.

[OldPhiKap]

NCAA had no jurisdiction over PSU according to their own by-laws and they absolutely hammered them.

And then got sued.

And then took a lot of it back.

[yancem]

don't you think he's already made "all that money" from NOT writing the book?

Yeah but if he's already received the hush money what is there to top him from double dipping and getting paid to unhush? Of course he could also demand another hush payment instead.

[Dr. Rosenrosen]

Yeah but if he's already received the hush money what is there to top him from double dipping and getting paid to unhush? Of course he could also demand another hush payment instead.
Hush money. Double dipping. But, my word, where would he have ever learned such things?

[English]

This has been documented thoroughly by Ted Tatos on Twitter. Search @tedtatos ADHD on Google for quick access to the information.

The problem is that the NCAA is never going to touch an area over which they have very little jurisdiction, if any, such as in the case where a student athlete is evaluated then prescribed medication by a medical provider.

As noted above, they were quite proud of their findings of new diagnosis of ADHD in 60% of their student athletes and talked about publishing the data.

There has been quite a bit of discussion about their use of IMPACT testing as their criterion for determining whether someone had ADHD.

IMPACT testing is used for concussion monitoring and is not a standard, recognized test for making a ADHD diagnosis. Again, this is covered in detail in the Twitter account noted above.

To add another, slightly unrelated wrinkle to this tangent, Roger Goodell and the NFL, have established a series of meetings with neuroscientist and Dean of the College of Arts & Sciences at UNC, Dr. Kevin Guskiewicz, to discuss his concussion research. Again, the Ted Tatos Twitter handle has made some noise about the link between the concussion research and the immense percentage of UNC student-athletes diagnoses of LD/ADHD. He seems to smell a rat.

The UNC doc, in what is obviously (just kidding) a coincidence, was vocal about concussion risks in professional sports up until the time he was given a substantial grant by the NFL. Since then, that causal link has largely vanished in his research. Just Google Dr. Kevin Guskiewicz & NFL Concussions. At least the NFL finally got an actual neurologist to examine the neurological impacts of football on brain health.

[billy]

At least the NFL finally got an actual neurologist to examine the neurological impacts of football on brain health.

His doctorate is a PHD in sports medicine, not a medical degree; he's not a neurologist. I believe his work has mostly been in the role of an administrative athletic trainer. May be semantics, but as a MD myself, I do see it as an important distinction.

[PackMan97]

former UNC FB player Tydreke Powell discusses being coached to fail the test to qualify for academic help.

https://youtu.be/xb_afwa5BZo?t=55

[devildeac]

former UNC FB player Tydreke Powell discusses being coached to fail the test to qualify for academic help.

https://youtu.be/xb_afwa5BZo?t=55

I knew I could count on you for a little research. Thanks!

[PackMan97]

I knew I could count on you for a little research. Thanks!

Man. You know I know. You know I know.

[Indoor66]

Man. You know I know. You know I know.

And you always proudly share. Thanks.😎

[English]

His doctorate is a PHD in sports medicine, not a medical degree; he's not a neurologist. I believe his work has mostly been in the role of an administrative athletic trainer. May be semantics, but as a MD myself, I do see it as an important distinction.

You're absolutely right, and my apologies. He's a neuroscientist--a researcher, not a medical doctor. The distinction is an important one.

[hudlow]

Asking for a friend...

How naive is it to think the NCAA will actually bring the hammer down on the reigning national champions?

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

Asking for a friend...

How naive is it to think the NCAA will actually bring the hammer down on the reigning national champions?

What's your timetable? At this point,I anticipate a sternly worded letter of rebuke in 18 months.

[duke79]

Asking for a friend...

How naive is it to think the NCAA will actually bring the hammer down on the reigning national champions?

I'd be amazed if the NCAA "brings the hammer down" on UNC. Like the big banks in 2008/2009, UNC is too big to fail (IMHO). I would guess we'll see something slightly more severe than a slap on the wrist. I have no clue what that might entail, but I really don't think the NCAA has the guts bring an "SMU" on UNC.

[Tjenkins]

I'd be amazed if the NCAA "brings the hammer down" on UNC. Like the big banks in 2008/2009, UNC is too big to fail (IMHO). I would guess we'll see something slightly more severe than a slap on the wrist. I have no clue what that might entail, but I really don't think the NCAA has the guts bring an "SMU" on UNC.

Sadly, the Penn State case shows that the NCAA will never bring an "SMU" down on anyone ever again. There's just so much more money wrapped up in college sports today than there was in the 80s (when SMU got the "Death Penalty"). I don't expect them to ever strip a champion of a national title because it would be the equivalent of telling the viewers (and sports gamblers) that who wins and loses tournament games might not matter in the end.

[hudlow]

Maybe "brings the hammer down" was too strong.

"Chases them around for a few minutes with a pillow" may be more practical.

The NCAA has truly painted itself into a corner and uNC just handed them a whole new bucket of paint.

Taking significant action - or - not taking significant action (as in none) on the national champions at this point is going to be institutional suicide.

The NCAA will be whistling past this graveyard for a long, long time.

[sagegrouse]

His doctorate is a PHD in sports medicine, not a medical degree; he's not a neurologist. I believe his work has mostly been in the role of an administrative athletic trainer. May be semantics, but as a MD myself, I do see it as an important distinction.

I seem to recall a Peanuts strips taken from a supposed novel that Snoopy was writing. Went something like:


"I remember when I decided to divorce Gordon. We were at the theater. Suddenly, an actor collapsed on stage. The stage manager came out and yelled, 'Is there a doctor in the house?' Gordon stood up and called back, 'I have a PhD in French literature.'"

[BluDvlsN1]

Sadly, the Penn State case shows that the NCAA will never bring an "SMU" down on anyone ever again. There's just so much more money wrapped up in college sports today than there was in the 80s (when SMU got the "Death Penalty"). I don't expect them to ever strip a champion of a national title because it would be the equivalent of telling the viewers (and sports gamblers) that who wins and loses tournament games might not matter in the end.


I'd be amazed if the NCAA "brings the hammer down" on UNC. Like the big banks in 2008/2009, UNC is too big to fail (IMHO). I would guess we'll see something slightly more severe than a slap on the wrist. I have no clue what that might entail, but I really don't think the NCAA has the guts bring an "SMU" on UNC.

I Agree with the above quotes.

Unfortunately, I have come to the conclusion the NCAA is just another corrupt corporation.
It has proven by action and inaction it has the bottom line mentality at all costs.
It's procedures in practice are counter to their stated policies in principle.

What I saw in the tournament were what many saw and reported on, calls/no calls, timing of whistles on plays,
Late calls, timing of whistles on certain players, rebounding on over the back call and non calls applied differently in the same game.
Specific referee's seemingly targeting certain players.
Then there are the timing of whistles in late game situations
With the appearance to balance the call total to appear of consitent.
I in no way expect a perfectly called game, but systematic inconsistencies
are not forgiveable.

The above paragraph is intentionally broadly descriptive, I post this to make this statement.

Because of the inaction of the NCAA on selective enforcement of rules offenses and the inconsistency during ingame officiating. I have a deep concern for the state of College Ball going forward.

I would like to believe tournaments like next years Phil Knight Invitational will be a shot across the bow of the NCAA either to begin their takedown or their remediation.

[DukieInKansas]

Maybe "brings the hammer down" was too strong.

"Chases them around for a few minutes with a pillow" may be more practical.

The NCAA has truly painted itself into a corner and uNC just handed them a whole new bucket of paint.

Taking significant action - or - not taking significant action (as in none) on the national champions at this point is going to be institutional suicide.

The NCAA will be whistling past this graveyard for a long, long time.

Can we put PackMan97 in charge of wielding the pillow?

[UrinalCake]

I could see recruiting restrictions and post-season bans happening. I don't expect them to take down any banners (though I would love to be wrong). If anything they would work out a deal like with Syracuse where they take away wins but conveniently don't include the championship seasons.

[hudlow]

Can we put PackMan97 in charge of wielding the pillow?

Splendid idea!!!

[DukieInKansas]

I could see recruiting restrictions and post-season bans happening. I don't expect them to take down any banners (though I would love to be wrong). If anything they would work out a deal like with Syracuse where they take away wins but conveniently don't include the championship seasons.

But how can they avoid taking away wins in 2005, which would include a banner? Is that one of the years that an athlete from unc admitted he wasn't a student-athlete based on the classwork he didn't do? (McCants as I recall)

[wsb3]

But how can they avoid taking away wins in 2005, which would include a banner? Is that one of the years that an athlete from unc admitted he wasn't a student-athlete based on the classwork he didn't do? (McCants as I recall)

I would like to believe there are schools that have been punished in the past with far less transgressions that are watching the NCAA very closely..I can't see Memphis..Syracuse..etc watching the Cheats get off without raising Heck..

[Olympic Fan]

I am 100 percent confident that UNC will be punished by the NCAA ... I know it's taking awhile, but that's how the NCAA process works.

When I say UNC will be punished, I mean the athletic program as a whole -- there will be a long probation and a hefty financial fine.

I'm not as sure that the UNC basketball program -- which is at the heart of the scandal -- will receive any significant penalties. After the second NOA, it looked like they were in the clear. The third NOA put them back in the crosshairs. I THINK they will be hit by a 1-2 year postseason ban and a loss of scholarships. I'd like to think they will forfeit games and maybe a couple of banners. But I wouldn't bet any serious money on that.

Of course, they will be covered by the university-wide probation, but that doesn't necessary mean postseason ban -- and that's the only penalty that will really mean anything.

[sagegrouse]

I could see recruiting restrictions and post-season bans happening. I don't expect them to take down any banners (though I would love to be wrong). If anything they would work out a deal like with Syracuse where they take away wins but conveniently don't include the championship seasons.


But how can they avoid taking away wins in 2005, which would include a banner? Is that one of the years that an athlete from unc admitted he wasn't a student-athlete based on the classwork he didn't do? (McCants as I recall)

Three thoughts here:

(a) Taking down a banner is a mechanical thing, where the school plays a player who would not have been eligible as a result of the violations.

(b) The appeal by the school often results in the diminution of penalties, because -- well -- that's the way the NCAA operates.

(c) The Penn State situation has been cited in this thread. I personally think that it is sui generis -- never happened before, not likely to happen again. So, I would not be inclined to use Penn State as an example.

Kindly,
Sage

[devildeac]

Three thoughts here:

(a) Taking down a banner is a mechanical thing, where the school plays a player who would not have been eligible as a result of the violations.

(b) The appeal by the school often results in the diminution of penalties, because -- well -- that's the way the NCAA operates.

(c) The Penn State situation has been cited in this thread. I personally think that it is sui generis -- never happened before, not likely to happen again. So, I would not be inclined to use Penn State as an example.

Kindly,
Sage

The Syracuse, f$u and Minnesota academic fraud/cheating scandals (to the best of my recollection) appear more appropriate to compare here, though on much, much smaller scales than 23 years of lying and cheating.

[Newton_14]

The Syracuse, f$u and Minnesota academic fraud/cheating scandals (to the best of my recollection) appear more appropriate to compare here, though on much, much smaller scales than 23 years of lying and cheating.

I wrote a "little ditty" about them a few months ago and we sing it in our house often. My daughter sings the high part on the Chorus lol! Think slow Country & Western songs... goes a little something like this:

1st Verse
They cheated for twenty five years
Oh they cheated for twenty five years
And the NC Double A is all in their rears
Cause they cheated; for twenty; five years

Chorus
Roy Knew ("Roy Knew"); Dean Too ("Dean Too")
That they cheated for twenty five years
And Banners comin down is their biggest fears
Cause they cheated; for twenty: five years

2nd Verse
Oh they cheated for twenty five years
They cheated for twenty five years
And probation & tourney bans have them in tears
Cause they cheated, for twenty five years

Roy Knew ("Roy Knew"), Dean Too, ("Dean Too")
That they cheated for twenty five years
And Banners comin down are their biggest fears
Cause they cheated; for twenty; five years
Oh they CHEATED; FOR TWENTY; FIVE YEARS....TWENTY FIVE YEARS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[devildeac]

I wrote a "little ditty" about them a few months ago and we sing it in our house often. My daughter sings the high part on the Chorus lol! Think slow Country & Western songs... goes a little something like this:

1st Verse
They cheated for twenty five years
Oh they cheated for twenty five years
And the NC Double A is all in their rears
Cause they cheated; for twenty; five years

Chorus
Roy Knew ("Roy Knew"); Dean Too ("Dean Too")
That they cheated for twenty five years
And Banners comin down is their biggest fears
Cause they cheated; for twenty: five years

2nd Verse
Oh they cheated for twenty five years
They cheated for twenty five years
And probation & tourney bans have them in tears
Cause they cheated, for twenty five years

Roy Knew ("Roy Knew"), Dean Too, ("Dean Too")
That they cheated for twenty five years
And Banners comin down are their biggest fears
Cause they cheated; for twenty; five years
Oh they CHEATED; FOR TWENTY; FIVE YEARS...TWENTY FIVE YEARS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

If you need an audio engineer/producer for that, I know who to recommend. Awesome!;)

[PackMan97]

Thank you for the great article today on the Carolina scandal. It is truly amazing how far and wide this has reached and how little UNC has paid for it.

[Devils Librarian]

I would like to believe there are schools that have been punished in the past with far less transgressions that are watching the NCAA very closely..I can't see Memphis..Syracuse..etc watching the Cheats get off without raising Heck..

There were a ton of rumors flying last year that universities who had been hit by sanctions from the NCAA in the past were preparing to sue if North Carolina was not given penalties befitting their institutional malfeasance. When the 2nd NOA came out and we were shocked to find that Roy Williams and Men's Basketball had been omitted I emailed a close friend of mine who is a beat writer for Ohio State Football. OSU was supposedly one of the schools keeping a close watch on the UNC-CH scandal. When I asked if the amended NOA would cause any legal proceedings from the OSU administration he laughed at me. I asked him if people in Columbus were pissed that UNC was going to get away with twenty years of cheating after OSU lost games and a post season over tatoos? His response was that it was not surprising that the NCAA let UNC off the hook, and that it was disappointing but not anything of concern at Ohio State.

I would not put any hope in universities suing over a lack of penalties from the NCAA.

[Ultrarunner]

Can we put PackMan97 in charge of wielding the pillow?

Since we don't have an immediate need for our cinder blocks for measuring a recruit, perhaps we can lend them to Packman97 for the pillow case.

[DukieInKansas]

Since we don't have an immediate need for our cinder blocks for measuring a recruit, perhaps we can lend them to Packman97 for the pillow case.

1 pound of feathers = 1 pound of cinderblock. I like it! :D

[Merlindevildog91]

http://www.newsobserver.com/sports/college/acc/unc/article143811894.html
Just saw this on Twitter, from the president of Terp U. The enemy of my enemy is my friend, or at least someone I hate less.

[arnie]

http://www.newsobserver.com/sports/college/acc/unc/article143811894.html
Just saw this on Twitter, from the president of Terp U. The enemy of my enemy is my friend, or at least someone I hate less.

This guy is my hero. Too bad none of the ACC presidents will stand up to the UNC deviants.

[Dr. Rosenrosen]

http://www.newsobserver.com/sports/college/acc/unc/article143811894.html
Just saw this on Twitter, from the president of Terp U. The enemy of my enemy is my friend, or at least someone I hate less.
I love how the uNC schmuck speaks down to the president of UM and accuses him of not knowing the facts of the case -- this despite the fact that the... uh, facts... have been made plainly available for anyone and everyone to see. Such lies and condescension could only come from a hole. So disgusting.

[mailman2927]

we and all fans of all schools should email the ncaa to voice what a disgrace it is that uncheat has gone this long without any penalties.

[devildeac]

http://www.newsobserver.com/sports/college/acc/unc/article143811894.html
Just saw this on Twitter, from the president of Terp U. The enemy of my enemy is my friend, or at least someone I hate less.


This guy is my hero. Too bad none of the ACC presidents will stand up to the UNC deviants.


I love how the uNC schmuck speaks down to the president of UM and accuses him of not knowing the facts of the case -- this despite the fact that the... uh, facts... have been made plainly available for anyone and everyone to see. Such lies and condescension could only come from a hole. So disgusting.

Strong words:

“For the things that happened in North Carolina, it’s abysmal. I would think that this would lead to the implementation of the death penalty by the NCAA. But I’m not in charge of that.”

I'd be willing to volunteer him for a seat on the COI this year...

[sagegrouse]

http://www.newsobserver.com/sports/college/acc/unc/article143811894.html
Just saw this on Twitter, from the president of Terp U. The enemy of my enemy is my friend, or at least someone I hate less.

Should probably be substantively referred to --

University of Maryland President Wallace Loh said during an on-campus meeting last week that he “would think” that the NCAA investigation into UNC-Chapel Hill would ultimately lead to the NCAA levying the so-called “death penalty” against the university.

[wsb3]

You have to love the UNC reaction. Roy saying they had already been punished with the length of the investigation. Came with an eyelash of back to back championships.. Some punishment Huck..

[TKG]

http://www.newsobserver.com/sports/college/acc/unc/article143811894.html
Just saw this on Twitter, from the president of Terp U. The enemy of my enemy is my friend, or at least someone I hate less.

Loh and Behold!

[budwom]

Roy continues his multi pronged lying, claiming hoops was not mentioned in the allegations, which it most certainly was.

[Faustus]

It would be great if this spurs some other university presidents to publicly speak out in a similar vein. (Sadly, I doubt it will. Indeed, where IS the national outrage?) Speculation by some who seem to be reasonably knowledgeable on Pack Pride (our delightful source for all things virulently anti-UNC) is that a June NCAA meeting could well be the time when a judgment FINALLY comes down from Above, and if the moral pressure from member schools like this continues to fill the airwaves and increases pressure, the NCAA may well find themselves unable to weasel out of sending down truly meaningful penalties. Obviously the death penalty should be the result. Never going to happen, but significant and long-lasting penalties have to rain down in this astonishingly corrupt situation. This is almost unprecedented territory now, and has a statement like this from another university president ever been made before? Sure seems like the pot is about ready to boil. This is one championship UNC fans may end up regretting they ever got as it may prove to be the final straw. Here's hoping...

[OldPhiKap]

Speculation by some who seem to be reasonably knowledgeable on Pack Pride ...

Fool me twice, well, you can't get fooled again.

[TKG]

It would be great if this spurs some other university presidents to publicly speak out in a similar vein. (Sadly, I doubt it will. Indeed, where IS the national outrage?) Speculation by some who seem to be reasonably knowledgeable on Pack Pride (our delightful source for all things virulently anti-UNC) is that a June NCAA meeting could well be the time when a judgment FINALLY comes down from Above, and if the moral pressure from member schools like this continues to fill the airwaves and increases pressure, the NCAA may well find themselves unable to weasel out of sending down truly meaningful penalties. Obviously the death penalty should be the result. Never going to happen, but significant and long-lasting penalties have to rain down in this astonishingly corrupt situation. This is almost unprecedented territory now, and has a statement like this from another university president ever been made before? Sure seems like the pot is about ready to boil. This is one championship UNC fans may end up regretting they ever got as it may prove to be the final straw. Here's hoping...

D1 collegiate athletics is one, giant cesspool. The argument is over the degree to which member schools violate NCAA rules. I write this not to excuse the Cheats but rather to offer a possible explanation for why other schools have not voiced outrage, at least publicly. The Cheats might be relying on a version of mutually assured destruction.

[duke79]

D1 collegiate athletics is one, giant cesspool. The argument is over the degree to which member schools violate NCAA rules. I write this not to excuse the Cheats but rather to offer a possible explanation for why other schools have not voiced outrage, at least publicly. The Cheats might be relying on a version of mutually assured destruction.

Totally agree here! IMHO, Div. I college athletics (and maybe even Division II and III) ARE a huge cesspool. I'm sure many university presidents don't want to comment on UNC because they know they could very easily be in the same position, if anyone ever closely investigated how their own athletic departments are run.

[OldPhiKap]

Maryland: still twerping after all these years.

(I think the guy is right, but there's likely a good-sized glass of sour grapes in Alaska still).

[Indoor66]

I refuse to live my life with the degree of cynicism expressed in the last few posts. Are there bad people and bad situations? Of course. But that does not serve as a basis for condemnation of all of a group.

I prefer to believe that most people attempt to do the right thing. Most people play by the rules. If you doubt that think about the fact that "dog bites man" is no story but "man bites dog" is sensational news.

Everybody does not break the rules. Many do break "A" rule but not all the rules. unCheat broke all the rules with a systematic and systemic scheme to win at sports. I will not believe that this is the norm at any Division of athletics - pro or amateur. Are there bad apples and cheaters - Yes - but it is not anywhere near the norm.

If your view of mankind is so poor, I feel sorry for you. You are going to face a great deal of misery and disappointment in life. We can always find what we imagine is true.

[sagegrouse]

D1 collegiate athletics is one, giant cesspool. The argument is over the degree to which member schools violate NCAA rules. I write this not to excuse the Cheats but rather to offer a possible explanation for why other schools have not voiced outrage, at least publicly. The Cheats might be relying on a version of mutually assured destruction.


Totally agree here! IMHO, Div. I college athletics (and maybe even Division II and III) ARE a huge cesspool. I'm sure many university presidents don't want to comment on UNC because they know they could very easily be in the same position, if anyone ever closely investigated how their own athletic departments are run.

And what does that say about us, who spend hundreds of hours commenting on what you describe as a "cesspool?"

College athletes are, in my experience, outstanding young men and women with good character and excelling in teamwork. I would say the same about most coaches. There could, of course, be a better balance between athletics and academics, and the rules of amateurism and the NCAA require interpretation by an army of Rabbis and Jesuits, as schools and coaches skate as close to the edge as rules allow.

The unease of university presidents is understandable, given the public nature of big-time athletics and, in many cases, the power of alumni and supporters. One incident of a university staff member doing academic work for players can lead to months or even years of unfavorable publicity and penalties. Universities, to protect themselves, have compliance with NCAA rules and regs, as a term of every coach's contract.

Anyway, IMHO, where the H has long been missing, athletics is not as you describe. Are there bad actors? You bet! Duke's neighborhood could benefit from improvement. Should the NCAA move more swiftly in assessing penalties? Yep. Are there barely literate people on athletic scholarship who should not be in college? Of course. But the public attention to athletics puts problems in the spotlight that go overlooked in other areas.

[moonpie23]

how many of you in here still REALLY believe that UNC will get substantial punishment?

i don't

[OldPhiKap]

how many of you in here still REALLY believe that UNC will get substantial punishment?



Men's BB? No.

In other words, they skate. Hammering women's basketball or women's soccer doesn't mean diddly to me. Hammering football has some weight, but is a far second to MBB.

[sbroc012]

Finebaum was just on ESPN to discuss the allegations and lack of penalty thus far. Needless to say he hit on every point that this board has been saying and he believes the 18 million in legal fees is insane and it was a play to slow the process for the sake of basketball success. He seemed very irritated that the tarholes still haven't been hit and said if they skate free you might as well close shop on the NCAA cause they serve no purpose.

Seems like Loh's comments are having some type of effect.

[MarkD83]

how many of you in here still REALLY believe that UNC will get substantial punishment?

i don't

I respect your point of view but want to give a larger picture view.

I believe UNC thinks they will be hammered. Everything they have done was to delay and distract away from Men's BBall. They got what they wanted another NCAA championship.

If they thought they were going to skate they would have accepted the NOA that first came out (how many years ago) accepted a fine and a few lost scholarships in sports other than Men's BBall and would have this behind them.

Roy is now their most prestigious Men's bball coach. It would not surprise me if they tried additional delaying tactics until Roy retires. This would include suggesting that this all started before Roy was at UNC so take away the wins in the late 90s through Guthridge and Doh but don't touch Roy or Dean.

They may even take this tactic and also claim a statute of limitations defense.

Keep in mind the COI has not ruled on anything, so that fact that the NCAA has not ruled is not really a reason to say the NCAA will do nothing. The COI has not had a chance to rule because of UNC's delaying tactic, which tells me they are afraid of being hammered.

[sagegrouse]

how many of you in here still REALLY believe that UNC will get substantial punishment?

i don't

UNC will get hammered: lengthy suspension, large fines, loss of scholarships and (maybe) vacation of wins and championships. Several times higher than penalties levied on Syracuse, USC, Minnesota, Weber State and SMU.

[WiJoe]

UNC will get hammered: lengthy suspension, large fines, loss of scholarships and (maybe) vacation of wins and championships. Several times higher than penalties levied on Syracuse, USC, Minnesota, Weber State and SMU.

You are dreaming, my friend.

[TKG]

I refuse to live my life with the degree of cynicism expressed in the last few posts. Are there bad people and bad situations? Of course. But that does not serve as a basis for condemnation of all of a group.

I prefer to believe that most people attempt to do the right thing. Most people play by the rules. If you doubt that think about the fact that "dog bites man" is no story but "man bites dog" is sensational news.

Everybody does not break the rules. Many do break "A" rule but not all the rules. unCheat broke all the rules with a systematic and systemic scheme to win at sports. I will not believe that this is the norm at any Division of athletics - pro or amateur. Are there bad apples and cheaters - Yes - but it is not anywhere near the norm.

If your view of mankind is so poor, I feel sorry for you. You are going to face a great deal of misery and disappointment in life. We can always find what we imagine is true.


I was willing to accept your opposing view right up until the highlighted sentence above. My comments were about D1 athletics not the human race. If you have conflated the two then perhaps you are the one who is "going to face a great deal of misery and disappointment in life."

[sagegrouse]

You are dreaming, my friend.

I dunno, WiJoe: 1,000 times the violations of the aforementioned schools, each of whom faced stiff penalties. Why do you think an exception for harsh punishment will be made for UNC?

[53n206]

I dunno, WiJoe: 1,000 times the violations of the aforementioned schools, each of whom faced stiff penalties. Why do you think an exception for harsh punishment will be made for UNC?

Everyone knows it's because they're Carolina.

[devildeac]

Fool me twice, well, you can't get fooled again.

"Meet the new boss. Same as the old boss."

[OldPhiKap]

To my mind, if MBB does not lose banners, they got away with it. Because they'll gladly pay any price to keep those.

MBB should lose banners. Everything logically says so. But I'll believe it when I see it.

[arnie]

how many of you in here still REALLY believe that UNC will get substantial punishment?

i don't

No chance men's BB is touched. Soccer (both) and Sylvia in real trouble - they may lose a scholarship or 2. Roy will get a medal of freedom or something like that.

[TKG]

To my mind, if MBB does not lose banners, they got away with it. Because they'll gladly pay any price to keep those.

MBB should lose banners. Everything logically says so. But I'll believe it when I see it.

Here's a hypothetical: if the Cheats were to lose a banner, would anyone be surprised if the Cheats began a campaign to put names to the "everybody-does-it" claim? The easy response would be: not every school created sham classes and ran the program for two decades and then lied about the existence of the program for another 10 years. The discussion/debate might then turn to matters of degree and where, exactly, the line exists. Would Carolina go quietly into the good night and accept the loss of a banner?

[Olympic Fan]

how many of you in here still REALLY believe that UNC will get substantial punishment?

i don't

Count me among those who expect UNC to be hammered.

I know many of you are frustrated and cynical because it's taken so long for the hammer to fall. But that's the way the NCAA works -- it frequently takes years to resolve cases ... and there have been few cases as long and as involved as this one. And few schools have shamelessly fought so hard to delay and resolution of the case.

I hope we don't get entangled in a debate as to what constitutes a "substantial penalty".

It won't be the Death Penalty (as the Maryland president suggests). I think it will involve a postseason ban (one or two years) for football and basketball (and women's basketball), the loss of scholarships in several sports and a large monetary fine. I would be surprised if it doesn't involve vacating numerous games (in several sports).

Whether that involves taking down a banner or two, I don't know. The NCAA has never vacated a national championship ... but the NCAA has never dealt with cheating on this scale either.

[devildeac]

To my mind, if MBB does not lose banners, they got away with it. Because they'll gladly pay any price to keep those.

MBB should lose banners. Everything logically says so. But I'll believe it when I see it.

While we're on The Who lyrics:

"I'd call that a bargain
The best I ever had"

[Devils Librarian]

I respect your point of view but want to give a larger picture view.

I believe UNC thinks they will be hammered. Everything they have done was to delay and distract away from Men's BBall. They got what they wanted another NCAA championship.

If they thought they were going to skate they would have accepted the NOA that first came out (how many years ago) accepted a fine and a few lost scholarships in sports other than Men's BBall and would have this behind them.

Roy is now their most prestigious Men's bball coach. It would not surprise me if they tried additional delaying tactics until Roy retires. This would include suggesting that this all started before Roy was at UNC so take away the wins in the late 90s through Guthridge and Doh but don't touch Roy or Dean.

They may even take this tactic and also claim a statute of limitations defense.

Keep in mind the COI has not ruled on anything, so that fact that the NCAA has not ruled is not really a reason to say the NCAA will do nothing. The COI has not had a chance to rule because of UNC's delaying tactic, which tells me they are afraid of being hammered.

You are not taking into consideration the hubris of Chapel Hill. I have never been at an institution that thinks more of itself than UNC-CH. If the school could be personified it would take the form of a person furiously "pleasing himself" while staring into a mirror.

Consider how after they won the championship there was all of that "Today we are all Tar Heels" crap going around. State fans would never say "Today we are all Wolfies," and Duke fans would never claim "Today we are all Blue Devils." They delay because they think they can get away with it, and they almost did. Maybe they still will.

[OldPhiKap]

While we're on The Who lyrics:

"I'd call that a bargain
The best I ever had"

"They call me the Seeker,
I've been searching low and high.
I won't get to get what I'm after
'til the day I die . . . "

[Tom B.]

Can we put PackMan97 in charge of wielding the pillow?

I don't think the NCAA will stop with just the pillow. They'll probably also put UNC in....the comfy chair! (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XnS49c9KZw8)

[OldPhiKap]

I don't think the NCAA will stop with just the pillow. They'll probably also put UNC in...the comfy chair! (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XnS49c9KZw8)

Is Cardinal Fang on the COI?

[TKG]

I don't think the NCAA will stop with just the pillow. They'll probably also put UNC in...the comfy chair! (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XnS49c9KZw8)


No one would expect that.

[sagegrouse]

Everyone knows it's because they're Carolina.

Yessiree! That athletic program down 15-501, which ranks at best as #32* in the NCAA in total revenue, is a powerhouse in NCAA politics and influence. It must be the tail that wags the dog and, therefore, becoming impervious to sanctions and penalties.

Kindly,
Sage
'Some of you guys need to get out of the state of North Carolina from time to time'
"To which I will add that DevilDeac does so, as I saw him at both Northwestern and Notre Dame football games last fall"

* Actually lower, because the USA Today rankings include only public schools (who must file public reports), leaving out USC, Notre Dame, Duke and others.

[OldPhiKap]

Yessiree! That athletic program down 15-501, which ranks at best as #32* in the NCAA in total revenue, is a powerhouse in NCAA politics and influence. It must be the tail that wags the dog and, therefore, becoming impervious to sanctions and penalties.

Kindly,
Sage
'Some of you guys need to get out of the state of North Carolina from time to time'
"To which I will add that DevilDeac does so, as I saw him at both Northwestern and Notre Dame football games last fall"

* Actually lower, because the USA Today rankings include only public schools (who must file public reports), leaving out USC, Notre Dame, Duke and others.

Do you think MBB banners come down?

Am I wrong to use that as the measuring stick?

I don't think UNC will skate. In fact, I think that the penalties in sum will be heavy. BUT I think they're going to be heavily weighed towards WBB, soccer, and whatever nonrevenue sports they can find to act as a proverbial Cleveland State. I don't see any banners coming down despite clear evidence that they should. Really hope to be wrong.

[Devils Librarian]

how many of you in here still REALLY believe that UNC will get substantial punishment?

i don't

I'll believe it when I see it. The NCAA already tried to let them off once. What makes you think that if UNC discovers that they cannot escape sanctions that they won't sacrifice every other athletic program on campus to save Men's Basketball? All they want is to be able to say that, "Sure there was some wrong doing, but not in the basketball program."

[devildeac]

Yessiree! That athletic program down 15-501, which ranks at best as #32* in the NCAA in total revenue, is a powerhouse in NCAA politics and influence. It must be the tail that wags the dog and, therefore, becoming impervious to sanctions and penalties.

Kindly,
Sage
'Some of you guys need to get out of the state of North Carolina from time to time'
"To which I will add that DevilDeac does so, as I saw him at both Northwestern and Notre Dame football games last fall"

* Actually lower, because the USA Today rankings include only public schools (who must file public reports), leaving out USC, Notre Dame, Duke and others.

And, you'll see several of us at the Northwestern game in September, 2018, too. Same restaurant for pre-game microbrews and a meal? :cool:

[RaiderDevil]

Just curious, would anything stop them from continuing to claim the championships even if they are forfeited?

[DukieInKansas]

I take some hope from talking with several clients this year that brought this investigation up and are made about it. Don't recall that happening even a year ago.

[sagegrouse]

Just curious, would anything stop them from continuing to claim the championships even if they are forfeited?

Yes, the NCAA rules. Michigan, for example, had to take down the final Four banners from 1992 and 1993 due to misdeeds involving the Fab Five.