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View Full Version : MBB: Duke 81, Louisville 77 Post Game Thread



Bob Green
03-09-2017, 04:45 PM
Discuss the game here.

Troublemaker
03-09-2017, 04:46 PM
Live stream for postgame pressers here: https://livestream.com/ACCDN/events/7085629

I will post another link for the archived Duke presser later (which will be a different link from the above)

91devil
03-09-2017, 04:46 PM
ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZone

Defense

gam7
03-09-2017, 04:46 PM
Discuss the game here.

Dylan goes electric at Newport Folk Festival.

K goes zone against Louisville.

Troublemaker
03-09-2017, 04:49 PM
BTW, the bench played very well. Struggling one day doesn't mean you have to struggle the next day.

And, the move to zone was huge, and so was Luke once again down the stretch to carry us.

Bluedog
03-09-2017, 04:49 PM
Great win!!! HUGE for both Grayson and Harry's confidence. I think we should zone UNC too. Force them to hit outside shots and it seems like a defense we understand better. Let's go Duke! Let's beat Carolina!

duke4ever19
03-09-2017, 04:49 PM
I'm watching that again from start to finish right now.

DukeDevil
03-09-2017, 04:51 PM
I think you can argue this is our best win of the year. From the top (K implementing zone was a great decision) to the team as a whole (fighting back from down 12). Grayson coming back on huge!!!

I'll be rewatching this later tonight.

InSpades
03-09-2017, 04:51 PM
Jayon was great.

Luke was sometimes great.

Grayson was infinitely better than he was yesterday :).

The zone defense was better. Gave up way too many layups and committed way too many fouls trying to play man-to-man.

Might the zone be useful tomorrow? Just feels good to be talking about playing another game tomorrow! Louisville is a very good team and any win against them is a good win.

NCAA implications? Maybe bumps us up to a 3? I want nothing to do w/ Kansas or Villanova before the elite 8 (hopefully final 4).

eddiehaskell
03-09-2017, 04:52 PM
I'll say it again - Tatum is very good (and young I know), but his late-game bone head mistakes scare the crap out of me. He's that guy who gets the ball for the last shot and you have a nervous breakdown hoping he doesn't dribble off his foot/get stripped/travel, etc. I pray we don't need a big shot later and he gets called for something like palming.

Luke is better than JJ, IMO.

kAzE
03-09-2017, 04:52 PM
Now THAT was a complete team effort. Every single guy who played made contributions, including each guy who came off the bench. Harry had a couple of really good plays late in the second half protecting the rim (and kind of a funny/pathetic one on that VJ King floater where Harry couldn't decide whether or not he wanted to commit to challenging the shot and then just fell down), and Marques had that one offensive possession where he kept the ball alive for 3-4 shot attempts! We didn't score, but the effort was remarkable.

What a huge difference that zone made ... it was like watching a layup drill one minute and then the next minute, it's the 2011 Chicago Bulls. And that last Louisville possession! My God, where was this defensive intensity hiding all year?

I haven't gone through that many emotions in a single game in a long time. At least when we've played UNC the last few times, we were always right there, and I never got to the point where I was resigned to the fact that we would lose. That's how bad it got early in the 2nd half. What a game!!

DukieInBrasil
03-09-2017, 04:55 PM
I thought Duke was gonna muddle their way thru to a loss once UL went up 11. Then we found another gear. Then Mitchell (or Snider?) picked up his 4th with about 9 to go and Duke really responded, particularly after that Levitch b.s.
So happy for Grayson though. He went from perhaps his worst performance in a Duke uniform to among his better games this season in one day. That assist to Tatum for a 3 was sweet.
Luke started really slow again, but found his comfort zone and really helped seal the win. He even got a 2x-double!
Tatum's driving ability has really gone to a new level recently, he's been mega. I gave him a hard time earlier in the year, but his game has really evolved. He's playing as well as anyone in the country right now.
Giles had probably his best game in Duke uni: 4/3/2/2/1 p/r/a/s/b. That's pretty nice.
Frank has been pretty shaky at the line lately for an 80% FT shooter on the year. Still, even though he didn't score a whole lot, he was an important part of this win.
I do gotta say one negative nelly thing: that turnover with 20 seconds left was among the worst plays this team has made all year, given the situation.
Bring on the Cheaters!!! (btw, why was J. Jackson given the POY award and not Kennard?)

devildeac
03-09-2017, 04:56 PM
OK, who was it here who phoned/emailed/texted/tweeted/instagrammed/PM'ed K to switch to the zone?

I know I contributed greatly by staying the hell away from any chats/TV/radio during the 2nd half. Worked yesterday, too. I can take a hint. Y'all can thank me later, or, just send beer. :o

MrPoon
03-09-2017, 04:57 PM
I think you can argue this is our best win of the year. From the top (K implementing zone was a great decision) to the team as a whole (fighting back from down 12). Grayson coming back on huge!!!

I'll be rewatching this later tonight.

No argument here, absolutely the best win. Beat a really good team, great toughness, tired legs, easy to give up but didn't, Giles contributes, GA big. Jackson plays well, Tatum scares everyone when they watch tape.

DukieInBrasil
03-09-2017, 04:57 PM
Dylan goes electric at Newport Folk Festival.

K goes zone against Louisville.

ummmm, K has played zone a few times in the OAD era, most notably for a few games in 2015.
Zone does seem to be effective against UL though, he did it to them in 2015...

Dukehky
03-09-2017, 04:58 PM
Rested Jefferson, Bolden and Giles contributing, Grayson being himself (for now) and Frank the Tank having the keys. Bring it on. See you cheaters tomorrow.

MrPoon
03-09-2017, 05:00 PM
Kennard once again proving the ACC press votes the wrong guy... tomorrow will really prove it.

Kedsy
03-09-2017, 05:00 PM
Our man-to-man defense was sooooo bad, and then I realized Matt and Amile only played 23 and 25 minutes, and it suddenly made sense.


Luke is better than JJ, IMO.

If you mean senior JJ (or even junior JJ), then you just don't remember how good he was.

BandAlum83
03-09-2017, 05:00 PM
I don't really feel like reviewing the posting guidelines, so could somebody tell me if "I told you so's" are allowed?


Seriously, would anyone be surprised to see Grayson go for 16/5/5 tomorrow? I wouldn't. He hasn't "regressed, but he mercurial.

I'm absolutely rooting for him!

Grayson was 18/4/1 today. Close enough?

He was 2/3 from 3 pt land. 42% over all. And 6/7 on FTs


Anyone out here still think he's afraid to drive or is not healthy (mentally or physically)?

Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15
03-09-2017, 05:01 PM
The sort of win that can change our season. Loved the moxie we showed down 12 to fight back in. If we can play with a chip on our shoulder, we are going to be tough to beat.

Skydog
03-09-2017, 05:01 PM
Thank god for foul trouble. That's why we went to the zone - Coach even said so after the game.
Fantastic win. Kennard just doesn't give up. And great comeback by Allen.

hallcity
03-09-2017, 05:01 PM
Boeheim and Pitino are now a combined 0-5 in the ACC Tournament.

DukieInBrasil
03-09-2017, 05:01 PM
Our man-to-man defense was sooooo bad, and then I realized Matt and Amile only played 23 and 25 minutes, and it suddenly made sense.



If you mean senior JJ (or even junior JJ), then you just don't remember how good he was.

isn't Luke a So.? Why would you be putting assumptions on the statement that weren't made? And yes, i believe So. Kennard is better than So. Redick.

InSpades
03-09-2017, 05:01 PM
I'll say it again - Tatum is very good (and young I know), but his late-game bone head mistakes scare the crap out of me. He's that guy who gets the ball for the last shot and you have a nervous breakdown hoping he doesn't dribble off his foot/get stripped/travel, etc. I pray we don't need a big shot later and he gets called for something like palming.

Luke is better than JJ, IMO.

On the turnover w/ less than 30 seconds left... it wasn't a great pass from Jayson but Grayson also needs to go to the ball. He went for it very casually and that was as much of the reason for the turnover as the pass.

I know Jayson had another late turnover (that was 100% his fault). Hard to say too much bad about Jayson though... he had 25 points and a couple of great passes. He was Duke's best player by far.

kako
03-09-2017, 05:02 PM
The zone worked well. Allen had a solid bounceback game. Tatum had his NBA-type moves that made scouts salivate. Jackson used his quickness well and hit some shots. Kennard came up big in the end as usual. But IMO the single biggest factor that propelled Due to the win was due to the Cards inability to hit FTs.

Teams will now scout Duke's zone more - it was a fairly simple 2-3 with almost no wrinkles. We can't rely on that. More injuries aside - if Allen can continue his trend without taking away from Jackson, *that* will be a big plus in Duke's favor.

MrPoon
03-09-2017, 05:02 PM
The sort of win that can change our season. Loved the moxie we showed down 12 to fight back in. If we can play with a chip on our shoulder, we are going to be tough to beat.

Saw a sparkle in K's eyes post game. He knew what this result means. He knew what his team showed him tonight.

weezie
03-09-2017, 05:03 PM
Old school Duke win. Nothing too crazy, just bear down and gut it out.

Kedsy
03-09-2017, 05:05 PM
isn't Luke a So.? Why would you be putting assumptions on the statement that weren't made? And yes, i believe So. Kennard is better than So. Redick.

Your statement is debatable, but to me the OP's statement did not appear to be comparing Luke to a sophomore JJ. I suppose the OP can respond to that for himself, though.

DukieInBrasil
03-09-2017, 05:05 PM
Old school Duke win. Nothing too crazy, just bear down and gut it out.

old school Duke win would have included some defense of the man-to-man variety. this team did not play quality m2m defense tonight. Zone saved our bacon, and that is NOT old school Duke.
Loved the win, not trying to harsh on you...

Bob Green
03-09-2017, 05:05 PM
The 2-3 zone defense was a game changer for sure. Another factor was the offense heating up on 3 pointers. We were 1-5 early before finishing 7-18 (38.9%).

NashvilleDevil
03-09-2017, 05:06 PM
Jayon was great.

Luke was sometimes great.

Grayson was infinitely better than he was yesterday :).

The zone defense was better. Gave up way too many layups and committed way too many fouls trying to play man-to-man.

Might the zone be useful tomorrow? Just feels good to be talking about playing another game tomorrow! Louisville is a very good team and any win against them is a good win.

NCAA implications? Maybe bumps us up to a 3? I want nothing to do w/ Kansas or Villanova before the elite 8 (hopefully final 4).

Why scared of Kansas? A depleted Duke team took them to the wire and they have guys out with injury and who knows if another one of their players gets suspended.

mr. synellinden
03-09-2017, 05:06 PM
On the turnover w/ less than 30 seconds left... it wasn't a great pass from Jayson but Grayson also needs to go to the ball. He went for it very casually and that was as much of the reason for the turnover as the pass.

I know Jayson had another late turnover (that was 100% his fault). Hard to say too much bad about Jayson though... he had 25 points and a couple of great passes. He was Duke's best player by far.

By far? Luke had 24 and 10.

Kedsy
03-09-2017, 05:06 PM
But IMO the single biggest factor that propelled Due to the win was due to the Cards inability to hit FTs.

They missed 11 free throws. We missed 9 free throws. Not as big a difference as it appeared during the game.

kshepinthehouse
03-09-2017, 05:07 PM
Scary scenario late in the game. Duke up 4 I think. Amile gets offensive rebound passes to Frank Jackson wide open 3 and he shoots it. He should have dribbled it back out to run some clock.

WHOneedsSOX
03-09-2017, 05:07 PM
The zone worked well. Allen had a solid bounceback game. Tatum had his NBA-type moves that made scouts salivate. Jackson used his quickness well and hit some shots. Kennard came up big in the end as usual. But IMO the single biggest factor that propelled Due to the win was due to the Cards inability to hit FTs.

Teams will now scout Duke's zone more - it was a fairly simple 2-3 with almost no wrinkles. We can't rely on that. More injuries aside - if Allen can continue his trend without taking away from Jackson, *that* will be a big plus in Duke's favor.

Yeah, I don't think Louisville made a single 3 once Duke switched to the zone. Also the guy who kept catching it at the high post for Louisville was useless. He caught it at the free throw line and didn't even look to shoot or drive. Did it maybe once. So there were a ton of holes in the zone but it worked for today.

InSpades
03-09-2017, 05:07 PM
Our man-to-man defense was sooooo bad, and then I realized Matt and Amile only played 23 and 25 minutes, and it suddenly made sense.


Is that the chicken or the egg? Maybe Matt and Amile didn't play much because our man-to-man defense wasn't good.

I think part of why Amile sat in the 2nd half is that K wanted a shot blocker in the middle of the zone. That means Giles or Bolden.

Matt is obviously off on his shot. He provides almost nothing on the offensive end at the moment. How useful is his defense in the zone?

If you can't stop the other team you might as well try to score w/ them.

mr. synellinden
03-09-2017, 05:07 PM
Why scared of Kansas? A depleted Duke team took them to the wire and they have guys out with injury and who knows if another one of their players gets suspended.

Kansas is on the verge of potentially losing to TCU, albeit without Jackson.

Sir Stealth
03-09-2017, 05:08 PM
Anyone out here still think he's afraid to drive or is not healthy (mentally or physically)?

Well, yeah, I (and I'm sure many others) certainly think he's still not close to 100% physically. Doesn't mean he's not capable of gutty performances that make him valuable to the team. Obviously a huge game in front of him tomorrow; has played great against UNC before.

Ultrarunner
03-09-2017, 05:08 PM
Rested Jefferson, Bolden and Giles contributing, Grayson being himself (for now) and Frank the Tank having the keys. Bring it on. See you cheaters tomorrow.

Rested Matt, too, and we need him to shutdown Jackson tomorrow - again.

DukieInBrasil
03-09-2017, 05:10 PM
Your statement is debatable, but to me the OP's statement did not appear to be comparing Luke to a sophomore JJ. I suppose the OP can respond to that for himself, though.

20 ppg vs 16 ppg. 50% FG vs 42%. .441 3FG vs .395. 5.3 rpg vs 3.1. 2.5 apg vs 1.6. One of those players is clearly superior in every category. That player is Luke Kennard. The only area that So. JJ was better than So. Luke is FT% 95% vs 85%.
If you wanna argue about different team styles and volume of shots, go ahead. The debate is pretty clear to me.

weezie
03-09-2017, 05:11 PM
old school Duke win would have included some defense of the man-to-man variety. this team did not play quality m2m defense tonight. Zone saved our bacon, and that is NOT old school Duke.
Loved the win, not trying to harsh on you...

But, last play was man2man...:cool:

BandAlum83
03-09-2017, 05:12 PM
The zone worked well. Allen had a solid bounceback game. Tatum had his NBA-type moves that made scouts salivate. Jackson used his quickness well and hit some shots. Kennard came up big in the end as usual. But IMO the single biggest factor that propelled Due to the win was due to the Cards inability to hit FTs.

Teams will now scout Duke's zone more - it was a fairly simple 2-3 with almost no wrinkles. We can't rely on that. More injuries aside - if Allen can continue his trend without taking away from Jackson, *that* will be a big plus in Duke's favor.

K has been so stubborn. Why has it taken him so long to break out the zone on FT defense?? Look how effective it was today!!!

WHOneedsSOX
03-09-2017, 05:12 PM
But, last play was man2man...

That was only one play and that was to prevent any wide open looks from 3.

BandAlum83
03-09-2017, 05:13 PM
Your statement is debatable, but to me the OP's statement did not appear to be comparing Luke to a sophomore JJ. I suppose the OP can respond to that for himself, though.

Perhaps referring to Justin Jackson, the so-called ACC POY?

FerryFor50
03-09-2017, 05:13 PM
Tatum was huge because he kept Duke in it early.

Kennard struggled early but was huge down the stretch when Tatum coughed up the ball a few times and fouled out.

Grayson, Harry, Amile all played solidly.

Matt and company all did a great job on Mitchell. FT shooting could have been better but at least they're finally getting to the line.

Duke seems to have found their identity.

Total team effort. Huge win.

If Duke wins tomorrow, do they get 2 seed love in NCAAs?

Indoor66
03-09-2017, 05:13 PM
Why this argument right after a game like today's?

weezie
03-09-2017, 05:13 PM
Whatevs, it worked. And he knows a whole lot more about this team than I do. And basketball.

Bob Green
03-09-2017, 05:14 PM
Scary scenario late in the game. Duke up 4 I think. Amile gets offensive rebound passes to Frank Jackson wide open 3 and he shoots it. He should have dribbled it back out to run some clock.

I agree with you. When Jackson took the shot I groaned out loud and shouted run some clock.


You must spread some Comments around before commenting on kshepinthehouse again.

MrPoon
03-09-2017, 05:14 PM
Ku < tcu

Edouble
03-09-2017, 05:15 PM
"That's the best Harry has played." --Coach K

Chard
03-09-2017, 05:15 PM
Strong win! Dayum happy!

Get them Heels!

Skydog
03-09-2017, 05:16 PM
On the turnover w/ less than 30 seconds left... it wasn't a great pass from Jayson but Grayson also needs to go to the ball. He went for it very casually and that was as much of the reason for the turnover as the pass.

I know Jayson had another late turnover (that was 100% his fault). Hard to say too much bad about Jayson though... he had 25 points and a couple of great passes. He was Duke's best player by far.

I'm loving the way Jayson is playing these days - just not at the end of games. In the last critical minute of this game he had two fouls and a travel. We were lucky Louisville didn't punish us- they just kept missing. Jayson had two additional turnovers in the last 4 minutes of the game. But he also had a nice 3 with about 2:30 left that gave us a lift. Like I said in a previous thread - at the end of the game I would much rather see Jayson shoot from outside (good chance of a swish) than drive from outside (good chance of a steal, travel, dribble off leg, or charge).

(PLEASE don't come back with "but he helped us so much in the rest of the game" - I'm not attacking the guy, just saying in the last 2 minutes of a game I get scared every time he touches the ball. I just pray he'll take a jump shot if open -which he nails with regularity- and not try to drive through a crowd.)

jacone21
03-09-2017, 05:25 PM
My 4 o'clock meeting just ended. Did I miss anything interesting?

Skydog
03-09-2017, 05:25 PM
Scary scenario late in the game. Duke up 4 I think. Amile gets offensive rebound passes to Frank Jackson wide open 3 and he shoots it. He should have dribbled it back out to run some clock.

I had the same thought. Wrong decision on his part. Loved it when Allen didn't make the same mistake when he got a pass in the last 30 sec or so with a pretty clear lane to the bucket - he realized burning clock was a better choice than going for a possible score.

phaedrus
03-09-2017, 05:26 PM
Your statement is debatable, but to me the OP's statement did not appear to be comparing Luke to a sophomore JJ. I suppose the OP can respond to that for himself, though.

Just imagine how good Kennard would be if he learned to shoot.

Troublemaker
03-09-2017, 05:26 PM
Here's the link to the Duke presser: https://livestream.com/ACCDN/events/7085629/videos/151354356

eddiehaskell
03-09-2017, 05:29 PM
Your statement is debatable, but to me the OP's statement did not appear to be comparing Luke to a sophomore JJ. I suppose the OP can respond to that for himself, though.I like current Luke's play better than junior JJ and I think he's just as good as senior JJ. I'd probably take Luke simply because of his footwork and ball fakes off the drive. Keep in mind that JJ averaged 22 ppg on --41%-- shooting as a junior. Luke could anchor Duke next year and average 25 ppg when Tatum leaves.

And yes, I can't knock Tatum, but he's one of those guys that scares you to death in the last 5 minutes of games when the defense clamps down.

flyingdutchdevil
03-09-2017, 05:30 PM
1) 3-SEED BABY!!! Win or lose tomorrow, I'm convinced we are now a 3-seed. Our resume just looks solid. I think if we win tomorrow, we're still a 3-seed. Win it all and we're likely a 2-seed (taking Louisville's spot).

2) Grayson Allen probably isn't 100%, but he's damn close. I was harsh on Grayson yesterday. Don't regret saying what I said. But he came out and played excellent! Great attitude, great stats, great teammate. If this is improvement, I wanna see more!

3) Jones has lost all confidence in his outside shot. He's hesitating to shoot now. He is now 2-18 over his last 6 games. He needs to see the ball go down moreso than anyone.

4) Tatum is the best player on the team. I concede to this. Kennard may be the best offensive player and scorer, but Tatum is just a stat stuffer. We don't win this game without Tatum playing well. And he's by far our best player at leading the fast break.

5) Kennard has the best scorers mentality I've seen in a while. He started the game 0-5 from 3. And then he nailed his next 3 3s. This guy is a stud. He played out of control in the first 10 min only to carry Duke in the last 10 min. Plus, 10 rebounds? Excellent.

6) Giles played his best half of basketball in a Duke jersey. On offense, he got open. He hustled back. And, most importantly, he played solid D without fouling every 10 seconds. He also played 15 min, which helped to rest Amile. Also, I really like the Amile/Giles/Tatum line-up as long as the team we're playing is huge and mediocre at 3s.

7) Bring on UNC. And Go To Effing Hell

kako
03-09-2017, 05:30 PM
On the turnover w/ less than 30 seconds left... it wasn't a great pass from Jayson but Grayson also needs to go to the ball. He went for it very casually and that was as much of the reason for the turnover as the pass

That is a play Duke used to call "Special". The man inbounding inbounding the ball immediately gets the ball back and goes for a shot.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4DD2fEEVVMk

Laettner made it work here.

The reason it didn't work was that Pitino is a good coach. He's been burned by Duke a few times lol. I'm sure he scouted the play and warned his team about it - guard the guy inbounding the ball. The other thing I'm sure he does is guard the inbounder on the baseline who has to throw a long pass at the end game ;)

Ultrarunner
03-09-2017, 05:32 PM
Scary scenario late in the game. Duke up 4 I think. Amile gets offensive rebound passes to Frank Jackson wide open 3 and he shoots it. He should have dribbled it back out to run some clock.

In hindsight, maybe. Frank hits that shot and we jump up and down shouting "DAGGER!" That kick-out three is a staple in the offense.

subzero02
03-09-2017, 05:32 PM
I don't really feel like reviewing the posting guidelines, so could somebody tell me if "I told you so's" are allowed?



Grayson was 18/4/1 today. Close enough?

He was 2/3 from 3 pt land. 42% over all. And 6/7 on FTs


Anyone out here still think he's afraid to drive or is not healthy (mentally or physically)?

I don't think is 100 percent healthy from a physical standpoint but he is much healthier than he was during the Syracuse game.

gep
03-09-2017, 05:34 PM
Just imagine how good Kennard would be if he learned to shoot.

right-handed... :cool: after all, he threw footballs right-handed

Aziggazoomba
03-09-2017, 05:35 PM
Congrats guys.

Dadgummit (as Roy would say), I was really hoping not to have to play you all again (and would have been OK flaming out against Miami, truth be told).

So here we go again.

Go Heels.

hudlow
03-09-2017, 05:36 PM
2:57 left, Giles had just come out, sitting on the bench, the camera flashed a look at him. His demeanor was totally different, he was not slouching, he was ready to go back in, he knew he could help.

He. Was. Feelin'. It. !!!!

I believe he turned a corner today.

flyingdutchdevil
03-09-2017, 05:38 PM
2:57 left, Giles had just come out, sitting on the bench, the camera flashed a look at him. His demeanor was totally different, he was not slouching, he was ready to go back in, he knew he could help.

He. Was. Feelin'. It. !!!!

I believe he turned a corner today.

I'm 99% sure someone(s) has said this 4-5 different times this season. He played very well. Let's not extrapolate.

Kedsy
03-09-2017, 05:42 PM
20 ppg vs 16 ppg. 50% FG vs 42%. .441 3FG vs .395. 5.3 rpg vs 3.1. 2.5 apg vs 1.6. One of those players is clearly superior in every category. That player is Luke Kennard. The only area that So. JJ was better than So. Luke is FT% 95% vs 85%.
If you wanna argue about different team styles and volume of shots, go ahead. The debate is pretty clear to me.

I didn't say you were wrong, I said it's debatable. And it is. Luke has never been the sole focus of our opponents' defenses the way JJ was. So the stats don't tell the whole story in this case.


Perhaps referring to Justin Jackson, the so-called ACC POY?

Good point, that never occurred to me -- but since Mr. Haskell has clarified, apparently he was talking about Redick after all.


I like current Luke's play better than junior JJ and I think he's just as good as senior JJ. I'd probably take Luke simply because of his footwork and ball fakes off the drive. Keep in mind that JJ averaged 22 ppg on --41%-- shooting as a junior. Luke could anchor Duke next year and average 25 ppg when Tatum leaves.

As I said to DiB, it's debatable whether sophomore Luke is better than sophomore JJ. I don't think there's a reasonable argument for sophomore Luke against junior or senior JJ. Again, you have to take into account that JJ was the primary, secondary, and tertiary focus of opposing defenses and he still did what he did. If he had received the one-on-one coverage that Luke generally gets, he would have had way better stats. Now, if Luke comes back and plays his junior and senior seasons, you could very well end up being right that junior or senior Luke is better than junior or senior JJ, but I'm not sure we'll get that chance. Also, JJ's defense was oft-maligned, but it was still miles better than Luke's defense.


If Duke wins tomorrow, do they get 2 seed love in NCAAs?

I don't think so. I agree with FDD that we need to win the ACCT to get a #2 seed.

kAzE
03-09-2017, 05:43 PM
2:57 left, Giles had just come out, sitting on the bench, the camera flashed a look at him. His demeanor was totally different, he was not slouching, he was ready to go back in, he knew he could help.

He. Was. Feelin'. It. !!!!

I believe he turned a corner today.

Let's see him do it again tomorrow, and if we're lucky, on Saturday as well.

I'm still slightly skeptical, but I'm grateful for our bench's much improved play today, because it meant that we were able to limit Amile/Matt/Frank's minutes. However, that's another 38 minutes for Luke, and 39 for Jayson, a day after playing 39 each against Clemson. I hope those guys still have their legs under them tomorrow.

RPS
03-09-2017, 05:45 PM
That is a play Duke used to call "Special". The man inbounding inbounding the ball immediately gets the ball back and goes for a shot.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4DD2fEEVVMk

Laettner made it work here.

I was in the Meadowlands that night. Great memory.

eddiehaskell
03-09-2017, 05:46 PM
Not sure if it was a break out game, but Giles did have a big block somewhere toward the end.

Dukeblue91
03-09-2017, 05:46 PM
Great game and I'm happy to see GA playing like his old self again.
Luke was awesome again, he's quickly becoming one of my all-time favorite.
I was also very encouraged by Harry Giles play today.
Just great team play today.

Hingeknocker
03-09-2017, 05:47 PM
I'm pretty sure that when Jackson took that 3, there were only 5 or 6 seconds left on the shot clock. Kennard had just driven to the hoop and his shot was blocked/affected (I thought he was fouled) but I don't think the ball hit the rim. It's possible it did hit the rim, I guess, but i'm 99% sure that ESPN's clock at least hadn't reset.

With only 5 seconds left on the shot clock, a wide-open 3 is a pretty good shot. I'm not going to hold Jackson accountable for that.

All that said - great win!

kako
03-09-2017, 05:48 PM
They missed 11 free throws. We missed 9 free throws. Not as big a difference as it appeared during the game.

Respectfully disagree. It was not about the number of misses in this instance. It was about the percentage. Hitting 58% of their freebies led them down the garden path for the loss.

pfrduke
03-09-2017, 05:49 PM
Scary scenario late in the game. Duke up 4 I think. Amile gets offensive rebound passes to Frank Jackson wide open 3 and he shoots it. He should have dribbled it back out to run some clock.

Pretty sure the original shot didn't draw iron and Frank shot because there were 5 seconds left on the shot clock. Not much more he could have dribbled out.

dukelifer
03-09-2017, 05:51 PM
I didn't say you were wrong, I said it's debatable. And it is. Luke has never been the sole focus of our opponents' defenses the way JJ was. So the stats don't tell the whole story in this case.



Good point, that never occurred to me -- but since Mr. Haskell has clarified, apparently he was talking about Redick after all.



As I said to DiB, it's debatable whether sophomore Luke is better than sophomore JJ. I don't think there's a reasonable argument for sophomore Luke against junior or senior JJ. Again, you have to take into account that JJ was the primary, secondary, and tertiary focus of opposing defenses and he still did what he did. If he had received the one-on-one coverage that Luke generally gets, he would have had way better stats. Now, if Luke comes back and plays his junior and senior seasons, you could very well end up being right that junior or senior Luke is better than junior or senior JJ, but I'm not sure we'll get that chance. Also, JJ's defense was oft-maligned, but it was still miles better than Luke's defense.



I don't think so. I agree with FDD that we need to win the ACCT to get a #2 seed.

All I know is I am glad he plays for Duke. Kid is a clutch player. That is what separates good from great players.

eddiehaskell
03-09-2017, 05:53 PM
As I said to DiB, it's debatable whether sophomore Luke is better than sophomore JJ. I don't think there's a reasonable argument for sophomore Luke against junior or senior JJ. Again, you have to take into account that JJ was the primary, secondary, and tertiary focus of opposing defenses and he still did what he did. If he had received the one-on-one coverage that Luke generally gets, he would have had way better stats. Now, if Luke comes back and plays his junior and senior seasons, you could very well end up being right that junior or senior Luke is better than junior or senior JJ, but I'm not sure we'll get that chance. Also, JJ's defense was oft-maligned, but it was still miles better than Luke's defense.
Regardless of stats, I just prefer the way Luke's game looks. He gets off difficult shots in ways that I can't see coming. In many of the same situations, JJ would be stuck in the lane and likely get stripped. Being able to pivot/spin/pump fake/make shot with quickness/fluidity is very difficult. Don't laugh but I sorta see flashes of a smaller Larry Bird as far as creating shots goes.

Channing
03-09-2017, 05:57 PM
may have been mentioned up thread ... but did Snyder blatantly walk on the last play? If they call Tatum for his "walk" then that looked like a hop-skip-and a jump.

kAzE
03-09-2017, 05:58 PM
Regardless of stats, I just prefer the way Luke's game looks. He gets off difficult shots in ways that I can't see coming. JJ would be stuck in the lane. Don't laugh but I sorta see flashes of a smaller Larry Bird.

I'm not really seeing it . . . Bird was, and played much bigger. He was one of the best passers in the history of the game, because of his size/length/vision. That's not really Luke's game.

I actually see Luke as a poor man's Steph Curry. You can tell he watches Steph and tries to emulate some of his moves. Some of the things he does off the dribble, and his craftiness in the paint are very Curry-esque.

eddiehaskell
03-09-2017, 06:03 PM
I'm not really seeing it . . . Bird was, and played much bigger. He was one of the best passers in the history of the game, because of his size/length/vision. That's not really Luke's game.

I actually see Luke as a poor man's Steph Curry. You can tell he watches Steph and tries to emulate some of his moves. Some of the things he does off the dribble, and his craftiness in the paint are very Curry-esque.I had to add that I meant creating shots...especially over quicker/more athletic players. Bird is certainly on another level when it comes to passing or rebounding. JJ couldn't get into a clean jumper as easily with a few dribbles/pivots.

Indoor66
03-09-2017, 06:03 PM
My 4 o'clock meeting just ended. Did I miss anything interesting?

Nah. Just another day at the office. 😂😎

slower
03-09-2017, 06:05 PM
Frank the Tank...
I've never heard ANYBODY call him that. Or Jacko or Action Jackson.

If you have, then please accept my apologies. But if you haven't...just stop.

Philadukie
03-09-2017, 06:07 PM
Respectfully disagree. It was not about the number of misses in this instance. It was about the percentage. Hitting 58% of their freebies led them down the garden path for the loss.

They shot 26 FTs. They made 15. They shoot 69% on the year, which would be 18. In a close game, three points is meaningful, but I don't think that was the difference maker in this game.

I think it was three things:

1) Going zone
2) Mitchell picking up his 4th foul
3) Luke, Grayson, and Tatum hitting key shots down the stretch

Dukehky
03-09-2017, 06:14 PM
I've never heard ANYBODY call him that. Or Jacko or Action Jackson.

If you have, then please accept my apologies. But if you haven't...just stop.

If you listen to the Devil's Den podcast, or follow any of them on twitter, they call him Frank the Tank often. So I will take your apologies.

Chard
03-09-2017, 06:15 PM
Here's the link to the Duke presser: https://livestream.com/ACCDN/events/7085629/videos/151354356

Thanks for the link. I highly recommend fans watch this conference.

Kedsy
03-09-2017, 06:16 PM
Respectfully disagree. It was not about the number of misses in this instance. It was about the percentage. Hitting 58% of their freebies led them down the garden path for the loss.

Maybe. If they hit one more and we miss one more (and thus we would have both missed 10), then their percentage is 62% and ours is 68% and you're probably saying "we both missed free throws."


may have been mentioned up thread ... but did Snyder blatantly walk on the last play? If they call Tatum for his "walk" then that looked like a hop-skip-and a jump.

You're absolutely right about that. Even Jay Bilas agreed.

Chard
03-09-2017, 06:17 PM
I've never heard ANYBODY call him that. Or Jacko or Action Jackson.

If you have, then please accept my apologies. But if you haven't...just stop.

I like to call him that all the time. If you don't like it I can't help you. I'll continue to have fun. :)

7244

7245

A CLASSIC!

cato
03-09-2017, 06:17 PM
20 ppg vs 16 ppg. 50% FG vs 42%. .441 3FG vs .395. 5.3 rpg vs 3.1. 2.5 apg vs 1.6. One of those players is clearly superior in every category. That player is Luke Kennard. The only area that So. JJ was better than So. Luke is FT% 95% vs 85%.
If you wanna argue about different team styles and volume of shots, go ahead. The debate is pretty clear to me.

I'm getting really tired of this discussion, but I will say it again: JJ is the player he is because of what he did after his Sophomore year, not because of what he did during his Sophomore year (when he acted too much like a sophomore cato she not much like a future NBA starter).

If you want to argue that Kennard is having a better season than JJ's second year, knock yourself out. If you want to argue he is a better player, then it's a waste of time. Kennard has a long way to go to start that conversation.

But hey, why not celebrate the team in front of us?

slower
03-09-2017, 06:19 PM
If you listen to the Devil's Den podcast, or follow any of them on twitter, they call him Frank the Tank often. So I will take your apologies.

Apologies.

slower
03-09-2017, 06:21 PM
I like to call him that all the time. If you don't like it I can't help you. I'll continue to have fun

Fair enough. Wasn't intending to hate on anybody quoting a legitimate nickname, but some folks around here have a habit of creating incredibly stupid nicknames for the players.

devildeac
03-09-2017, 06:23 PM
Who's going to start the next game thread?

Better be someone with some serious mojo.

LasVegas
03-09-2017, 06:23 PM
Anyone with the name Frank is called frank the tank. I'm sure it's a very old saying but it seems like it really took off after frank the tank Will Ferrel in old school.

eddiehaskell
03-09-2017, 06:25 PM
I think Kennard is a better dribbler, driver and shot creator. JJ is the better 3 pt shooter. I'll personally take Kennard's skill set because he's also a good 3pt shooter to go along with all that.

CDu
03-09-2017, 06:25 PM
Our man-to-man defense was sooooo bad, and then I realized Matt and Amile only played 23 and 25 minutes, and it suddenly made sense.



If you mean senior JJ (or even junior JJ), then you just don't remember how good he was.

Kennard is having a better season than Redick's junior year for sure in my opinion. Much better rebounder, MUCH better shooter on comparable shot volume, similar assist rate.

One could surely argue that Redick's senior year was better due to the higher-volume scoring. But I see no reasonable argument that junior Redick was better than sophomore Kennard has been.

CDu
03-09-2017, 06:33 PM
Your statement is debatable, but to me the OP's statement did not appear to be comparing Luke to a sophomore JJ. I suppose the OP can respond to that for himself, though.

And I don't think there should be ANY debate that soph Kennard is better than soph Redick. Frankly, it isn't remotely close. I think you are letting your wonderful memories of Redick's senior year fog your analysis. Because sophomore Redick couldn't hold a candle to Kennard. Less accurate shooter (on a lower shot volume), less of a passer, less of a rebounder, less of a defender. There is literally nothing from Redick's sophomore year stats that compares even comparably to Kennard's sophomore stats.

devilnfla
03-09-2017, 06:37 PM
A little surprised no one is talking about the officials. While we shot more FTs, I thought Louisville got the benefit on a lot of no-calls on travels and that late travel on Tatum was BS. Especially after they missed Mahmoud travel on the other end during the previous play. Also, the timeout they awarded them when both teams were fighting for the ball was bad, IMO. The Jefferson foul call was late when his arm was inside the Louisville player. When that foul was finally called, Amile had both hands on the ball. One other item, Louisville bigs camp out in the paint and not a hint of a 3 second call.

BD80
03-09-2017, 06:38 PM
K has been so stubborn. Why has it taken him so long to break out the zone on FT defense?? Look how effective it was today!!!

Come on - everyone knows that the free throw line is the weak spot of a zone defense! And if you zone the free throw, it is harder to block out for a rebound!


2:57 left, Giles had just come out, sitting on the bench, the camera flashed a look at him. His demeanor was totally different, he was not slouching, he was ready to go back in, he knew he could help.

He. Was. Feelin'. It. !!!!

I believe he turned a corner today.


I'm 99% sure someone(s) has said this 4-5 different times this season. He played very well. Let's not extrapolate.

Each player runs his own race ... makes his own journey... Harry's path may have more corners than most...

For everyone who was thinking that an early loss wouldn't be so bad, let this game be a lesson. Just think of the experience these kids got today. There have been precious few games this season where we have had all hands on deck, so every extra game we play is hugely valuable experience, particularly at this level. That was a Sweet Sixteen or Great 8 level game! Tomorrow is Final Four level competition!

A top 3 seed will give us opening weekend games against top-50 and then top-20/25 level foes, which should get us to the second weekend, even if 4 games this weekend wears us down a bit. Two weeks to recover and get healthy with some critical late season experience and momentum.

Almost seems like coach knows what he is doing ...

Troublemaker
03-09-2017, 06:45 PM
Re: Luke vs JJ, a big factor is just the era they were playing in.

I was never really comfortable with JJ being our best player. It just always felt like a focused, athletic team could shut him down in big games. Now they would do so by fouling the heck out of him and not getting called for it, but that's why I say era matters.

In effect, [Luke + freedom of movement emphasis] > [JJ without FOM]

With Luke, I'm not afraid of athletic teams stopping him. He's as close to unstoppable on offense as you can be on the college level.

Now, that said, I agree with Kedsy that upperclass JJ was more of a two-way player than Luke. Given time, I think Luke could close that defensive gap, though.

vick
03-09-2017, 06:46 PM
Kennard is having a better season than Redick's junior year for sure in my opinion. Much better rebounder, MUCH better shooter on comparable shot volume, similar assist rate.

One could surely argue that Redick's senior year was better due to the higher-volume scoring. But I see no reasonable argument that junior Redick was better than sophomore Kennard has been.

This is a bit too much. Adjusted for NCAA average efficiency (which you indisputably should do; it's not JJ's fault "freedom of movement" came after him), their offensive stats are very comparable:

JJ '05: ORTG +20.1 vs. NCAA average, 25% possessions used
LK '17: ORTG +23.6 vs. NCAA average, 23% possessions used

On the whole, that's probably slightly better for Redick than Kennard (he also played more minutes). There's a reason JJ was--as a junior--ACC POY, first team all-America, and Rupp award winner.

CDu
03-09-2017, 06:52 PM
This is a bit too much. Adjusted for NCAA average efficiency (which you indisputably should do; it's not JJ's fault "freedom of movement" came after him), their offensive stats are very comparable:

JJ '05: ORTG +20.1 vs. NCAA average, 25% possessions used
LK '17: ORTG +23.6 vs. NCAA average, 23% possessions used

On the whole, that's probably slightly better for Redick than Kennard (he also played more minutes). There's a reason JJ was--as a junior--ACC POY, first team all-America, and Rupp award winner.

Those stats don't disagree with what I said. Kennard is the slightly better offensive player in comparable usage. Add to that the big edge in rebounding, and I would say Kennard was better.

Those stats certainly don't suggest that Redick was clearly better.

As for individual honors, Kennard was the better player than the guy who won the award this year.

Troublemaker
03-09-2017, 06:53 PM
Each player runs his own race ... makes his own journey... Harry's path may have more corners than most...

For everyone who was thinking that an early loss wouldn't be so bad, let this game be a lesson. Just think of the experience these kids got today. There have been precious few games this season where we have had all hands on deck, so every extra game we play is hugely valuable experience, particularly at this level. That was a Sweet Sixteen or Great 8 level game! Tomorrow is Final Four level competition!

A top 3 seed will give us opening weekend games against top-50 and then top-20/25 level foes, which should get us to the second weekend, even if 4 games this weekend wears us down a bit. Two weeks to recover and get healthy with some critical late season experience and momentum.

Almost seems like coach knows what he is doing ...

An excellent point. I don't know yet whether this ACC tourney represents Duke "taking the next step" / "turning into a first-rate contender" or not, but heck, it could be that. Why would we forsake this opportunity, this kind of experience?

pfrduke
03-09-2017, 06:56 PM
Those stats don't disagree with what I said. Kennard is the slightly better offensive player in comparable usage. Add to that the big edge in rebounding, and I would say Kennard was better.

Those stats certainly don't suggest that Redick was clearly better.

As for individual honors, Kennard was the better player than the guy who won the award this year.

You said there's no reasonable argument that junior Redick was better than sophomore Kennard. Vick made a reasonable argument - JJ's added usage (and singular focus of the defense) outweighs Luke's slightly better relative efficiency, before even considering defensive impact (where junior JJ was ahead of sophomore Kennard). Their relative merit is reasonably debatable, and it's certainly no slight to either to say their respective seasons are closely equivalent. But it's wrong to say that there isn't even a reasonable argument that junior JJ was better.

Steven43
03-09-2017, 06:59 PM
I'll say it again - Tatum is very good (and young I know), but his late-game bone head mistakes scare the crap out of me. He's that guy who gets the ball for the last shot and you have a nervous breakdown hoping he doesn't dribble off his foot/get stripped/travel, etc. I pray we don't need a big shot later and he gets called for something like palming.

Luke is better than JJ, IMO.

Are you saying Jayson is a choker? Just curious.

Oh, and I posted on DBR after the first few games of Luke's freshman season that I definitely saw in him the potential to be better than JJ. I know it's completely lame and vain to point out stuff like this, but I'm doing it anyway. Because I am lame and vain.

azzefkram
03-09-2017, 07:00 PM
Really happy they put their big boy pants on after they went down 12. Great win against a tough team. Great play by everyone. Great job going to the zone. Only thing that irked me was Coach K calling a timeout with 8 secs left on the shot clock. I still think I have the mark on my forehead from when I facepalmed.

As for the JJ/Luke debate, they were/are both awesome. So happy they play/played for Duke. (As an aside, I do think you have to adjust for era. JJ with the FOM rules would have been great to see.)

CDu
03-09-2017, 07:01 PM
You said there's no reasonable argument that junior Redick was better than sophomore Kennard. Vick made a reasonable argument - JJ's added usage (and singular focus of the defense) outweighs Luke's slightly better relative efficiency, before even considering defensive impact (where junior JJ was ahead of sophomore Kennard). Their relative merit is reasonably debatable, and it's certainly no slight to either to say their respective seasons are closely equivalent. But it's wrong to say that there isn't even a reasonable argument that junior JJ was better.

I don't think that is reasonable, honestly. Their usage is virtually identical, and Kennard's adjusted efficiency is better (by a larger percentage than Redick's usage edge). And again, Kennard provides more value in rebounding, so even if you assume their offense is equal, or even the extreme that Redick was better offensively (which I find debatable at best), Kennard brings more to the table elsewhere.

I would say:
Freshman Redick > freshman Kennard
Sophomore Kennard >>> sophomore Redick
Sophomore Kennard >= junior Redick
Senior Redick >> sophomore Kennard

vick
03-09-2017, 07:02 PM
Those stats don't disagree with what I said. Kennard is the slightly better offensive player in comparable usage. Add to that the big edge in rebounding, and I would say Kennard was better.

Those stats certainly don't suggest that Redick was clearly better.

As for individual honors, Kennard was the better player than the guy who won the award this year.

Sure, I think you can make a case for it (and you've done so admirably well), but you're going way overboard when you say there is "no reasonable argument that junior Redick was better than sophomore Kennard has been." There's a reason that, e.g., Pomeroy had junior JJ as top-5 (http://kenpom.com/blog/the-kpoy-a-history/).

Indoor66
03-09-2017, 07:03 PM
Is the horse dead yet?

bluebeagle
03-09-2017, 07:03 PM
Lets see what Luke does in the NCAAs. Seems like I remember JJ always flaming out in the NCAA tournament. IIRC he went about 1 for 18 on 3s in one tournament game. Luke's total game is way ahead of JJs.

BandAlum83
03-09-2017, 07:06 PM
Come on - everyone knows that the free throw line is the weak spot of a zone defense! And if you zone the free throw, it is harder to block out for a rebound!

Each player runs his own race ... makes his own journey... Harry's path may have more corners than most...

For everyone who was thinking that an early loss wouldn't be so bad, let this game be a lesson. Just think of the experience these kids got today. There have been precious few games this season where we have had all hands on deck, so every extra game we play is hugely valuable experience, particularly at this level. That was a Sweet Sixteen or Great 8 level game! Tomorrow is Final Four level competition!

A top 3 seed will give us opening weekend games against top-50 and then top-20/25 level foes, which should get us to the second weekend, even if 4 games this weekend wears us down a bit. Two weeks to recover and get healthy with some critical late season experience and momentum.

Almost seems like coach knows what he is doing ...

Excellent post all around. Too bad I can't spork you.

Chard
03-09-2017, 07:08 PM
Fair enough. Wasn't intending to hate on anybody quoting a legitimate nickname, but some folks around here have a habit of creating incredibly stupid nicknames for the players.

No worries. It's all good.

Now go watch that classic!

BandAlum83
03-09-2017, 07:08 PM
Re: Luke vs JJ, a big factor is just the era they were playing in.

I was never really comfortable with JJ being our best player. It just always felt like a focused, athletic team could shut him down in big games. Now they would do so by fouling the heck out of him and not getting called for it, but that's why I say era matters.

In effect, [Luke + freedom of movement emphasis] > [JJ without FOM]

With Luke, I'm not afraid of athletic teams stopping him. He's as close to unstoppable on offense as you can be on the college level.

Now, that said, I agree with Kedsy that upperclass JJ was more of a two-way player than Luke. Given time, I think Luke could close that defensive gap, though.



Isn't there a JJ vs. Luke thread out here? If not, can we create one and pin it to the top of the board so we can keep the other threads to what they were meant for?

This was a great game! I wish the post game thread posts would talk about that.

CharlestonDave
03-09-2017, 07:09 PM
I know that I will be criticized for what I am about to post, but sobeit.

I know it is always great to win and I know that winning the ACC Tournament is a big deal.

That said , would it have been better off in the long run to have lost today and give the players who are not 100% a full 7 or 8 days to rest or go easy on their ailments and be healthier for the tournament.

I understand that maybe today's win might move us up a seed and winning the ACC tournament might get us a 2 or 3 seed.

TruBlu
03-09-2017, 07:10 PM
Is the horse dead yet?

The JJ versus Luke debate cannot be settled until we on DBR come to a consensus on which of the two would get more minutes if playing on identical teams.

Ready, set, go!

(Just kidding. Please don't.)

eddiehaskell
03-09-2017, 07:11 PM
Are you saying Jayson is a choker? Just curious.

Oh, and I posted on DBR after the first few games of Luke's freshman season that I definitely saw in him the potential to be better than JJ. I know it's completely lame and vain to point out stuff like this, but I'm doing it anyway. Because I am lame and vain.I wouldn't say choker. I'd just say that he seems more prone to mistakes late in games when defenses are giving their absolute best. I'm not sure if that meets the definition of choker or not. It's almost like he plays the same through out the game, but lacks that extra gear to go beyond what you can imagine him being capable of. There are just some really good players that make you feel extremely confident late in games...some make you nervous about a ball bouncing off their foot or something. Tatum is more the latter for me.

plimnko
03-09-2017, 07:12 PM
I know that I will be criticized for what I am about to post, but sobeit.

I know it is always great to win and I know that winning the ACC Tournament is a big deal.

That said , would it have been better off in the long run to have lost today and give the players who are not 100% a full 7 or 8 days to rest or go easy on their ailments and be healthier for the tournament.

I understand that maybe today's win might move us up a seed and winning the ACC tournament might get us a 2 or 3 seed.


i get what you're saying.......i really do, but do you think k would play to lose?

freshmanjs
03-09-2017, 07:14 PM
I know that I will be criticized for what I am about to post, but sobeit.

I know it is always great to win and I know that winning the ACC Tournament is a big deal.

That said , would it have been better off in the long run to have lost today and give the players who are not 100% a full 7 or 8 days to rest or go easy on their ailments and be healthier for the tournament.

I understand that maybe today's win might move us up a seed and winning the ACC tournament might get us a 2 or 3 seed.

I don't think so at all in this case. That win was HUGE for the team's confidence, for Giles, for Allen, for Tatum. Huge.

BandAlum83
03-09-2017, 07:18 PM
I know that I will be criticized for what I am about to post, but sobeit.

I know it is always great to win and I know that winning the ACC Tournament is a big deal.

That said , would it have been better off in the long run to have lost today and give the players who are not 100% a full 7 or 8 days to rest or go easy on their ailments and be healthier for the tournament.

I understand that maybe today's win might move us up a seed and winning the ACC tournament might get us a 2 or 3 seed.

No criticism, but a direct, honest answer:

IMO, No.

cato
03-09-2017, 07:20 PM
Is the horse dead yet?

Neigh.

Indoor66
03-09-2017, 07:23 PM
I wouldn't say choker. I'd just say that he seems more prone to mistakes late in games when defenses are giving their absolute best. I'm not sure if that meets the definition of choker or not. It's almost like he plays the same through out the game, but lacks that extra gear to go beyond what you can imagine him being capable of. There are just some really good players that make you feel extremely confident late in games...some make you nervous about a ball bouncing off their foot or something. Tatum is more the latter for me.

I think that it relates to a lack of experience rather than choking.

CDu
03-09-2017, 07:24 PM
Isn't there a JJ vs. Luke thread out here? If not, can we create one and pin it to the top of the board so we can keep the other threads to what they were meant for?

This was a great game! I wish the post game thread posts would talk about that.

Sorry to contribute to the thread derail.

What a fun win! I thought we were fortunate to be ahead at the half. I don't feel like we were playing well, but thankfully Louisville struggled too. Then, for a long stretch of the second half, Louisville controlled the game on both ends. And then, Coach K made the decision to go zone (something EVERYONE should consider against Louisville). And that - along with Kennard's hot finish - was the difference.

Phenomenal performances by Kennard and Tatum. 24 and 10 from Kennard, with 3 assists and a block for good measure. Tatum added 25 and 6, plus 3 steals. They were both studs today.

It was also great to see Allen bounce back. Hopefully his limited minutes the last few weeks means he will have fresher than expected legs tomorrow!

Jackson had a terrific start, but got in early foul trouble and fell out of the flow.

Giles gave us solid minutes off the bench: 4 pts, 3 boards, 2 assists, two steals, 1 block. The fouls are still too high, but it was a solid day.

The best news is that Allen, Jones, Jefferson, and Jackson all played under 30 minutes. So hopefully they will be fresher tomorrow than they otherwise would be.

Great, great comeback win. We could have folded, but instead we stepped up to get it done. This team is still growing. There is hope yet!

Furniture
03-09-2017, 07:26 PM
Congrats guys.

Dadgummit (as Roy would say), I was really hoping not to have to play you all again (and would have been OK flaming out against Miami, truth be told).

So here we go again.

Go Heels.

Thanks for posting. I think there have been one or two good humored UNC post the last few days!
Let's Go Duke!!!

eddiehaskell
03-09-2017, 07:28 PM
I think that it relates to a lack of experience rather than choking.That could very well be true.

Steven43
03-09-2017, 07:33 PM
I wouldn't say choker. I'd just say that he seems more prone to mistakes late in games when defenses are giving their absolute best. I'm not sure if that meets the definition of choker or not. It's almost like he plays the same through out the game, but lacks that extra gear to go beyond what you can imagine him being capable of. There are just some really good players that make you feel extremely confident late in games...some make you nervous about a ball bouncing off their foot or something. Tatum is more the latter for me.

That was a great explanation, thanks. I understand now what you were trying to convey.

I think Duke beats UNC tomorrow. I'm really feeling it. I also think Louisville would have beaten the Heels. If we were playing anyone but UNC tomorrow I would have been fine with a loss in order to rest up for the dance, just like in the 2015 tournament. But not against UNC. No freaking way.

Brockt10
03-09-2017, 07:39 PM
I don't really feel like reviewing the posting guidelines, so could somebody tell me if "I told you so's" are allowed?



Grayson was 18/4/1 today. Close enough?

He was 2/3 from 3 pt land. 42% over all. And 6/7 on FTs


Anyone out here still think he's afraid to drive or is not healthy (mentally or physically)?

I was destroyed last post game board for saying he needed to step up. I know he's not 100% but he showed up today. He has many different ways to score and doesn't need to rely on his athleticism. Now it's time for Matt. GTHC!!! Edit: I was actually flamed for saying Grayson needed to step up.

kako
03-09-2017, 07:39 PM
I know that I will be criticized for what I am about to post, but sobeit.

I know it is always great to win and I know that winning the ACC Tournament is a big deal.

That said , would it have been better off in the long run to have lost today and give the players who are not 100% a full 7 or 8 days to rest or go easy on their ailments and be healthier for the tournament.

I understand that maybe today's win might move us up a seed and winning the ACC tournament might get us a 2 or 3 seed.

You play to win the game.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b5-iJUuPWis

:)

arnie
03-09-2017, 07:46 PM
That was a great explanation, thanks. I understand now what you were trying to convey.

I think Duke beats UNC tomorrow. I'm really feeling it. I also think Louisville would have beaten the Heels. If we were playing anyone but UNC tomorrow I would have been fine with a loss in order to rest up for the dance, just like in the 2015 tournament. But not against UNC. No freaking way.

Yep, tomorrow's game is so very important to Duke fandom. I like our chances, since only two of our guys played more than 28 minutes. That's unusual for us in a highly contested game.

martydoesntfoul
03-09-2017, 07:50 PM
If this game proves one thing, it's the perils of recency bias.

Now as far as tomorrow goes, I am pulling so hard for Harry after those classless "overrated" chants. Game on!

Skydog
03-09-2017, 07:50 PM
I think that it relates to a lack of experience rather than choking.

I'm repeating myself but so what - I actually think it has more to do with what he specifically tries to do at the end of games: A minute or two left - trying to help the team - he often starts driving the lane more, often from the 3 point line or further since at the end there isn't a lot of time to work the ball around and receive it closer to the basket. Those drives tend to be predictable and into the teeth of a concentrated defense. Hard to do for anyone, and Tatum doesn't have the best handle. Too his credit he's cut down on that tendency.

What he can do to great effect at the end of games is get off a sweet 3 or long 2, even against good, tall defenders. Imo he has ice in his veins for those shots. He had one game he single handily won the game with a flurry of 3's at the end.

Indoor66
03-09-2017, 07:56 PM
I'm repeating myself but so what - I actually think it has more to do with what he specifically tries to do at the end of games: A minute or two left - trying to help the team - he often starts driving the lane more, often from the 3 point line or further since at the end there isn't a lot of time to work the ball around and receive it closer to the basket. Those drives tend to be predictable and into the teeth of a concentrated defense. Hard to do for anyone, and Tatum doesn't have the best handle. Too his credit he's cut down on that tendency.

What he can do to great effect at the end of games is get off a sweet 3 or long 2, even against good, tall defenders. Imo he has ice in his veins for those shots. He had one game he single handily won the game with a flurry of 3's at the end.

Isn't that a reflection of his lack of experience?

gus
03-09-2017, 08:11 PM
Lets see what Luke does in the NCAAs. Seems like I remember JJ always flaming out in the NCAA tournament. IIRC he went about 1 for 18 on 3s in one tournament game. Luke's total game is way ahead of JJs.

No, YDRC (http://goduke.statsgeek.com/basketball-m/players/statlines.php?playerid=299)

JJ rarely took more than 12 3 pointers in a game. The most he ever shot was 16, against Texas, making 9 and scoring 41.

Perhaps you're thinking of his last game, against LSU, where he went 3-18. He was 3-9 from behind the line and only scored 11. I think LSU's defense should be credited for that though.

NashvilleDevil
03-09-2017, 08:11 PM
I was destroyed last post game board for saying he needed to step up. I know he's not 100% but he showed up today. He has many different ways to score and doesn't need to rely on his athleticism. Now it's time for Matt. GTHC!!! Edit: I was actually flamed for saying Grayson needed to step up.

You were flamed (by me) because you said an injury was no excuse for Grayson not to step up and the team should forget about all the missed practice time and play like they did against George Tech and UNLV. Which I thought was ridiculous. Grayson had turned his ankle TWICE since the first Carolina game and this team has had very little practice time all year because of injuries. There is no way this team is going to flip a switch in March and blow teams out. Appreciate this team for facing as much adversity as they have and now have a good shot at an ACC Title.

FerryFor50
03-09-2017, 08:26 PM
No, YDRC (http://goduke.statsgeek.com/basketball-m/players/statlines.php?playerid=299)

JJ rarely took more than 12 3 pointers in a game. The most he ever shot was 16, against Texas, making 9 and scoring 41.

Perhaps you're thinking of his last game, against LSU, where he went 3-18. He was 3-9 from behind the line and only scored 11. I think LSU's defense should be credited for that though.

That was the game where Garrett Temple was allowed to physically abuse Redick all game long. No calls.

Combine that with his athleticism and length and it made for a long day for JJ.

Kedsy
03-09-2017, 08:27 PM
That said , would it have been better off in the long run to have lost today and give the players who are not 100% a full 7 or 8 days to rest or go easy on their ailments and be healthier for the tournament. I understand that maybe today's win might move us up a seed and winning the ACC tournament might get us a 2 or 3 seed.

You're asking whether 7/8 days rest + a 4/5 seed is better than 5/6 days rest and a 2/3 seed?

To me, even putting everything else aside (e.g., chance to win the ACC championship, opportunity to gain confidence against tough competition, playing a game with everyone or almost everyone available to play and coach, etc), this seems like a no-brainer. How much more invigorating would 8 days of rest be over 6 days of rest? Wouldn't seem like very much, but there's a huge difference in chance to win for a 2/3 seed over a 4/5 seed. This one's an easy call.

Brockt10
03-09-2017, 09:02 PM
You were flamed (by me) because you said an injury was no excuse for Grayson not to step up and the team should forget about all the missed practice time and play like they did against George Tech and UNLV. Which I thought was ridiculous. Grayson had turned his ankle TWICE since the first Carolina game and this team has had very little practice time all year because of injuries. There is no way this team is going to flip a switch in March and blow teams out. Appreciate this team for facing as much adversity as they have and now have a good shot at an ACC Title.

We can agree to disagree but I said almost verbatim "I know he's injured but Grayson was the preseason npoy and needs to step up." How he goes from an injured 0 points to an injured 18 in one day is a mystery. I respect your opinion as a long time poster and think there may have been some misunderstanding in my post. In the end, We are both die hard Duke fans so let's agree that UNC should go to hell and let's go DUKE!!!

Billy Dat
03-09-2017, 09:41 PM
I attended the game, my first ever ACC Tournament game, and I have a revisionist history take on what took place.

During the Louisville player intros, the in-house video gurus included footage of the Greatest, Muhammad Ali of Louisville, including his triumphant victory over George Foreman in the Rumble in the Jungle. Even casual boxing fans know that Ali laid on the ropes inviting Foreman to wail away, suspecting that he'd punch himself out and be ripe for the taking. It worked, and "rope-a-dope" entered the popular lexicon.

When it looked like Duke was playing poor defense, that was K rope-a-doping. Louisville got so used to scoring lay-ups that they forget how to shoot jumpers. K waited and waited and sprung the zone at precisely the right time..and Louisville shot themselves out of it. The zone was great free throw defense indeed.

Back to reality.

As Chard said, this is an amazing press conference. K really walks a fine and proud line sticking up for Grayson and the program without coming off like a defensive [insert pejorative]. I encourage everyone to watch.


Here's the link to the Duke presser: https://livestream.com/ACCDN/events/7085629/videos/151354356

It was not obvious in the building that the 3 where Levitch fouled Grayson was so controversial...with many considering it next in a line of cheap flops. I have now seen 2 post-game stories (Dana O'Neil and Pat Forde) where it was the key piece of evidence of the "Bad Boy Grayson is back and Duke embraces he and the hate". I must say, being there and watching him nail those 3 FTs was an amazing experience.

This being my first experience at this tournament and being a native NYer, I can't compare it to the past but I will say it felt full and rocking when it counted in the "4th quarter". The Heel faithful were the dominant fanbase which gave our game incredible extra juice.

This team continues to get better. We have been through wars and we seem to be feeding off it rather than letting it get us. When it comes to the whole "rest" debate, in which I side on the "more games the better" side, I have always felt that only one team gets to win the National Championship and I love watching us play so much, especially in heavyweight fights, that I am always greedy for more. Tomorrow is a gift...another game with Amile, Matt, Jayson, Grayson, Luke...this team, that will never exist again. A Duke/Carolina game in NYC - that is an incredible thing for the local alumni who don't get to see it very often.

This team is tough as nails.

9F! 9F! 9F!

DieHard
03-09-2017, 09:45 PM
I was on a plane an would really like to see the replay of the game, but do not want to give my credit card to a site. I know it has been asked before, but where can I get a replay?

freshmanjs
03-09-2017, 09:52 PM
I was on a plane an would really like to see the replay of the game, but do not want to give my credit card to a site. I know it has been asked before, but where can I get a replay?

espn app

Duke76
03-09-2017, 09:55 PM
A little surprised no one is talking about the officials. While we shot more FTs, I thought Louisville got the benefit on a lot of no-calls on travels and that late travel on Tatum was BS. Especially after they missed Mahmoud travel on the other end during the previous play. Also, the timeout they awarded them when both teams were fighting for the ball was bad, IMO. The Jefferson foul call was late when his arm was inside the Louisville player. When that foul was finally called, Amile had both hands on the ball. One other item, Louisville bigs camp out in the paint and not a hint of a 3 second call.

I will take the bait, that one ref, slightly plump, was horrible...he called at least 3 in the second half wrong....he was looking right at that Louisville who clearly walked, the jefferson call when he got his arm stuck was terrible. I hate it when the ref is behind the play and can only see backs and not the ball makes the call, her was clearly out of position and then the call on Tatum where we screwed up the inbound play was not a foul....there were others just cant remember and the guy was right there when the Louisville guy went up for the 3 at the end of the game and grayson was on him, just knew he was gonna call a foul on grayson, luckily he didn't

Billy Dat
03-09-2017, 10:04 PM
http://www.cbssports.com/college-basketball/news/college-basketball-gets-its-best-ncaa-tournament-appetizer-with-unc-duke-on-friday-night/

"The Blue Devils were down by as many as 12 points in the second half, and for this team to beat a quality club like Louisville, it clearly boosted the Devils’ confidence. That locker room was loose, happy, freewheeling. I was a bit taken aback by just how satisfied Duke was. I think those guys know they earned that win over Louisville."

These guys are having fun. Once the win streak started, I don't think they have felt the recent losses as heavily as during the early ACC season when K was out, Grayson-gate was in full fire, Amile got hurt, etc. I am as buoyed by these reports of their spirits as I am about their play on the court, understanding that both are related. It has been since the first FSU game, nearly 2 months, that we were thoroughly beaten. Since then, we have been in every game and won most of them. We are tough and I am starting to raise my expectations again.

Troublemaker
03-09-2017, 10:19 PM
http://www.cbssports.com/college-basketball/news/college-basketball-gets-its-best-ncaa-tournament-appetizer-with-unc-duke-on-friday-night/

"The Blue Devils were down by as many as 12 points in the second half, and for this team to beat a quality club like Louisville, it clearly boosted the Devils’ confidence. That locker room was loose, happy, freewheeling. I was a bit taken aback by just how satisfied Duke was. I think those guys know they earned that win over Louisville."

These guys are having fun. Once the win streak started, I don't think they have felt the recent losses as heavily as during the early ACC season when K was out, Grayson-gate was in full fire, Amile got hurt, etc. I am as buoyed by these reports of their spirits as I am about their play on the court, understanding that both are related. It has been since the first FSU game, nearly 2 months, that we were thoroughly beaten. Since then, we have been in every game and won most of them. We are tough and I am starting to raise my expectations again.

If we win tomorrow with Harry and Marques playing well again, expectations will skyrocket. It'd basically be the ACC tournament of our dreams; huge wins coupled with the young big men getting better.

jv001
03-09-2017, 10:34 PM
I think Kennard is a better dribbler, driver and shot creator. JJ is the better 3 pt shooter. I'll personally take Kennard's skill set because he's also a good 3pt shooter to go along with all that.

I get it, you love Luke Kennard. GoDuke...the Team...

sagegrouse
03-09-2017, 10:36 PM
No, YDRC (http://goduke.statsgeek.com/basketball-m/players/statlines.php?playerid=299)

JJ rarely took more than 12 3 pointers in a game. The most he ever shot was 16, against Texas, making 9 and scoring 41.

Perhaps you're thinking of his last game, against LSU, where he went 3-18. He was 3-9 from behind the line and only scored 11. I think LSU's defense should be credited for that though.

The other guys on the 2006 team failed to step up when LSU concentrated on stopping JJ.

sagegrouse
03-09-2017, 10:39 PM
I will take the bait, that one ref, slightly plump, was horrible...he called at least 3 in the second half wrong...he was looking right at that Louisville who clearly walked, the jefferson call when he got his arm stuck was terrible. I hate it when the ref is behind the play and can only see backs and not the ball makes the call, her was clearly out of position and then the call on Tatum where we screwed up the inbound play was not a foul...there were others just cant remember and the guy was right there when the Louisville guy went up for the 3 at the end of the game and grayson was on him, just knew he was gonna call a foul on grayson, luckily he didn't

I am told on good authority that the bogus call on Tatum was made by Jamie Luckie, who was wa-a-a-y down the court, and not by the ref who was within ten feet and had a perfect view of a non-foul.

devildeac
03-09-2017, 10:41 PM
The other guys on the 2006 team failed to step up when LSU concentrated on mugging JJ.

Clarification.

sagegrouse
03-09-2017, 10:42 PM
I was on a plane an would really like to see the replay of the game, but do not want to give my credit card to a site. I know it has been asked before, but where can I get a replay?

My guide says the Duke-Louisville game will be replayed on ESPNU at 11:30 PM MST, or 1:30 AM EST.

devildeac
03-09-2017, 10:45 PM
I am told on good authority that the bogus call on Tatum was made by Jamie Luckie, who was wa-a-a-y down the court, and not by the ref who was within ten feet and had a perfect view of a non-foul.

Must have learned that from lenny wurst and/or richard (yes, you suck) pooparo (sic).

(Reminds me of one of my favorite chants from the Crazies when a ref from 30-40 feet away makes a ridiculous/wrong call and dramatically overrules the ref with a a better view: "Not your call. Not your call.")

:mad:

-jk
03-09-2017, 10:46 PM
My guide says the Duke-Louisville game will be replayed on ESPNU at 11:30 PM MST, or 1:30 AM EST.

Love my TiVo!

-jk

jipops
03-09-2017, 10:51 PM
Been watching the game again... Luke Kennard is the best player in the conference. And it's just. not. close.

COYS
03-09-2017, 10:53 PM
The other guys on the 2006 team failed to step up when LSU concentrated on stopping JJ.

To this day, that is the only time I've been to a Duke game in the NCAAT. Sigh.

As for this win, today, Duke has now taken down UNC, Ville, UVA, and Florida from KenPom's top 10. We also lost by two to Kansas. This team still has a really high ceiling on its best day. The best part about today's win to me is that we played really well but still have room to improve. It's not like we shot 50% from three or anything to win the game. We didn't play our absolute best game and we STILL beat a very very good Louisville team.

Maybe we can take another little step forward tomorrow . . .

BandAlum83
03-09-2017, 10:54 PM
A Duke/Carolina game in NYC - that is an incredible thing for the local alumni who don't get to see it very often.


I absolutely love this!!! As someone who grew up in the NY Metro area, I knew nothing of college basketball until I went to Duke.

The people of NY are in for a thrill. Even if they don't watch or attend, I'm sure it will be covered by the local media, as BIG TIME college basketball hits the Big Apple!

The thought of a Duke/UNC matchup in The City, is actually pretty thrilling to this adopted Atlanta Boy.

Here's hoping you get to see a great Duke win first, and another instant classic, if possible!

Furniture
03-09-2017, 10:55 PM
I was on a plane an would really like to see the replay of the game, but do not want to give my credit card to a site. I know it has been asked before, but where can I get a replay?
ESPN 3 app. Download and register through your tv provider.

devildeac
03-09-2017, 10:56 PM
To this day, that is the only time I've been to a Duke game in the NCAAT. Sigh.

As for this win, today, Duke has now taken down UNC, Ville, UVA, and Florida from KenPom's top 10. We also lost by two to Kansas. This team still has a really high ceiling on its best day. The best part about today's win to me is that we played really well but still have room to improve. It's not like we shot 50% from three or anything to win the game. We didn't play our absolute best game and we STILL beat a very very good Louisville team.

Maybe we can take another little step forward tomorrow . . .

Just as long as it's not our roof...

:rolleyes:

Furniture
03-09-2017, 10:59 PM
My guide says the Duke-Louisville game will be replayed on ESPNU at 11:30 PM MST, or 1:30 AM EST.

If you have ESPNU you can probably register for the ESPN3 app. If that is the case the game is available for replay on demand. I watched it earlier.

Utley
03-09-2017, 11:04 PM
Pure ecstasy. I loved the press conference. Can't remember seeing K that giddy and Grayson's couldn't control himself after the Coach K praise. I think it speaks to how hard of a ride this season was.

I think one play that was huge was Giles rebound over Mahmoud. I don't remember him playing much if at all after that and he all but owned us the first 3 halfs against us.

Duke basketball is all about heart and we sure showed it today. Best UNC!

killerleft
03-09-2017, 11:08 PM
I don't really feel like reviewing the posting guidelines, so could somebody tell me if "I told you so's" are allowed?



Grayson was 18/4/1 today. Close enough?

He was 2/3 from 3 pt land. 42% over all. And 6/7 on FTs


Anyone out here still think he's afraid to drive or is not healthy (mentally or physically)?

You're way too satisfied with yourself.:) Grayson gutted out another one and played well. But he absolutely is not as healthy as we'd all like to see him.

I'll let you know when he's back to the old Grayson. Just go back and check out those crucial 8 points duriing the '15 National Championship game. You'll know what to look for, too.

Furniture
03-09-2017, 11:12 PM
I think K pulled a coaching master stroke by having Grayson over Luke in this press conference. Grayson is back!!!

Kfanarmy
03-09-2017, 11:31 PM
That was the game where Garrett Temple was allowed to physically abuse Redick all game long. No calls.

Combine that with his athleticism and length and it made for a long day for JJ.

I'll never forget reading a quote out of a local LSU paper wherein Temple was quoted as saying "The refs weren't calling the fouls so we just kept getting more physical with him." That article was gone in its entirety the next day. Still you can find very similar quotes: "The referees were letting us play, so we were being physical with him without getting into foul trouble"

I have always believed the fix was in for a couple of officials in that game. When opposing players are bragging about being able to foul at will, you know there was a problem.

Steven43
03-09-2017, 11:50 PM
Been watching the game again... Luke Kennard is the best player in the conference. And it's just. not. close.

I'd take Luke over Justin Jackson 1,000 times out of 1,000. I really don't think it's even close.

79-77
03-09-2017, 11:53 PM
I was in the Meadowlands that night. Great memory.

Me too. Incredible.

And I was also in the Spectrum 2 years later for the reprise.


I attended the game, my first ever ACC Tournament game, and I have a revisionist history take on what took place.

Tomorrow is a gift...another game with Amile, Matt, Jayson, Grayson, Luke...this team, that will never exist again. A Duke/Carolina game in NYC - that is an incredible thing for the local alumni who don't get to see it very often.



Amen brother. I graduated about a million years ago and have only seen Duke-UNC live a couple of times since then. But I live in Brooklyn and am going to get tickets tomorrow and bring my son to his first Duke-UNC game (and his first non-preseason Duke game). Holy mackerel I am psyched.

If Allen is close to healthy -- which he looked like today -- and brings it again tomorrow, we have a very good chance.

GTHC!

killerleft
03-10-2017, 12:00 AM
Kennard is having a better season than Redick's junior year for sure in my opinion. Much better rebounder, MUCH better shooter on comparable shot volume, similar assist rate.

One could surely argue that Redick's senior year was better due to the higher-volume scoring. But I see no reasonable argument that junior Redick was better than sophomore Kennard has been.

Frankly, Johnny Dawkins was better than either of these jokers. But y'all have your fun.:D

DukeDevil
03-10-2017, 12:02 AM
Scary scenario late in the game. Duke up 4 I think. Amile gets offensive rebound passes to Frank Jackson wide open 3 and he shoots it. He should have dribbled it back out to run some clock.

The shot clock was not reset as Luke's shot hit the bottom of the backboard, not the rim. There were only 5 seconds left so Frank had to shoot.

Ballboy1998
03-10-2017, 12:04 AM
Great, great win for Duke. I hate the way Louisville plays. Fouls non stop and then whines about every whistle. Jamie Luckie was happy to oblige with an exceptional number of head scratching calls. He may have individually accounted for 100% of the bad calls.

BandAlum83
03-10-2017, 12:07 AM
You're way too satisfied with yourself.:) Grayson gutted out another one and played well. But he absolutely is not as healthy as we'd all like to see him.

I'll let you know when he's back to the old Grayson. Just go back and check out those crucial 8 points duriing the '15 National Championship game. You'll know what to look for, too.

That I am!!

BandAlum83
03-10-2017, 12:13 AM
Frankly, Johnny Dawkins was better than either of these jokers. But y'all have your fun.:D

Would that be fr, so, Jr or Sr Johnny? ;)

BandAlum83
03-10-2017, 12:21 AM
The shot clock was not reset as Luke's shot hit the bottom of the backboard, not the rim. There were only 5 seconds left so Frank had to shoot.

You are correct. It was 78-74 at the time (I just rewatched it). 4 seconds left on the shot clock when the ball left Frank's hands.

G-Man, on the ACC broadcast, in another example of not know where he was in the game actually said they had a fresh 30 and coach K wanted to run clock. But you are 100% correct, DukeDevil.

Great catch that many who watched the ACC feed would not have realized because of GMan's color commentary

eddiehaskell
03-10-2017, 12:29 AM
I'd take Luke over Justin Jackson 1,000 times out of 1,000. I really don't think it's even close.No doubt. I think team success was their deciding point for POTY. Granted, we were a lucky bank shot away from finishing the season with only 1 more loss than UNC...despite injuries and K missing time. I'm sure somewhere in the back of Luke's mind being snubbed gives him a little extra motivation to get this win.

uh_no
03-10-2017, 01:41 AM
watched the press conference...that was some A level psychological mastery by K with grayson today. Massive positive reinforcement. you play and act like K knows? And you're up on the podium with him praising you. you don't? You lose your captaincy and lose playing time. The reaction up there today was the complete antithesis to his reaction when he tripped the guy a few months ago. He never hides his emotions, and that was clear today. You get a taste of that, and man does it get addicting.

You don't think the wants to be up there tomorrow after a win?

WHOneedsSOX
03-10-2017, 02:42 AM
I love how Giles jumped in there to stare down that guy on Louisville after he tangled with Allen under the basket.

Brockt10
03-10-2017, 07:17 AM
I love how Giles jumped in there to stare down that guy on Louisville after he tangled with Allen under the basket.

Saw this and loved it. Perfect amount of "don't do that" from Giles. Definitely put a smile on my face.

Spanarkel
03-10-2017, 08:06 AM
I absolutely love this!!! As someone who grew up in the NY Metro area, I knew nothing of college basketball until I went to Duke.

The people of NY are in for a thrill. Even if they don't watch or attend, I'm sure it will be covered by the local media, as BIG TIME college basketball hits the Big Apple!

The thought of a Duke/UNC matchup in The City, is actually pretty thrilling to this adopted Atlanta Boy.

Here's hoping you get to see a great Duke win first, and another instant classic, if possible!

How 'bout the '77-'78 Blue Devils?

DukieInBrasil
03-10-2017, 09:06 AM
You are correct. It was 78-74 at the time (I just rewatched it). 4 seconds left on the shot clock when the ball left Frank's hands.

G-Man, on the ACC broadcast, in another example of not know where he was in the game actually said they had a fresh 30 and coach K wanted to run clock. But you are 100% correct, DukeDevil.

Great catch that many who watched the ACC feed would not have realized because of GMan's color commentary

i like that Gman actually talks about the game at hand, but he does get players' names wrong quite a bit and otherwise doesn't get some details right. I too thought Duke had a new 30, glad to know that i was wrong.

weezie
03-10-2017, 09:13 AM
Saw this and loved it. Perfect amount of "don't do that" from Giles. Definitely put a smile on my face.


Yes, indeed. THAT was superb. Loved it.

Ultrarunner
03-10-2017, 09:43 AM
You are correct. It was 78-74 at the time (I just rewatched it). 4 seconds left on the shot clock when the ball left Frank's hands.

G-Man, on the ACC broadcast, in another example of not know where he was in the game actually said they had a fresh 30 and coach K wanted to run clock. But you are 100% correct, DukeDevil.

Great catch that many who watched the ACC feed would not have realized because of GMan's color commentary

I didn't catch it, but I was splitting my attention between the game and work. Regardless, I didn't have a problem with the shot. Like the board after losses, the angst over missed shots is always greater than the joy at makes, at least based on perceived post count.

BandAlum83
03-10-2017, 10:51 AM
How 'bout the '77-'78 Blue Devils?

How bout em!? Interestingly, I had just recently heard of Duke from doing some research into programs. Seeing them in the Final 4 that year was a kind of "Oh, there's Duke. Someone just told me they are good for science majors" moment.

They also beat ND in that final 4, and they were also on my list. My brother was at ND at the time. Other than the Magic/Bird final 4, it's really the only exposure I had had.

Spanarkel
03-10-2017, 12:09 PM
How bout em!? Interestingly, I had just recently heard of Duke from doing some research into programs. Seeing them in the Final 4 that year was a kind of "Oh, there's Duke. Someone just told me they are good for science majors" moment.

They also beat ND in that final 4, and they were also on my list. My brother was at ND at the time. Other than the Magic/Bird final 4, it's really the only exposure I had had.

That magical run to the championship game in '78 definitely piqued my interest in Duke. Duke's record during our time there('79-'83)was mediocre at 62-56, but the '80 ACCT title was great(lots of snow that night), and Tom Butters fortunately stood by Coach K.

Olympic Fan
03-10-2017, 12:29 PM
I rewatched the Louisville game early this morning and I thought I'd add rwo things to this thread:

(1) Our zone was not very good ... but it worked because of Louisville's response to it -- they never really attacked it ... instead, they worked things around and looked for the easy 3-point shot. And they DID get plenty of open 3s. They were 0-8 from three against the zone and only one (forced by the shot clock) was a bad shot. They just missed -- it reminded me of the NC State at Dujke game -- they gave us a ton of open 3s down the stretch ... we just missed them all.

(2) By the way, Snyder's shot with 12 seconds left -- when he tried to draw a foul -- was not a 3. He was well inside the line ... if they HAD called the foul (it wasn't a foul, but not putting anything past these refs), they would have reviewed the shot and seen that it was clearly a two-shot foul and not a three.

(3) David Levitch = Patrick Davidson.

The turning point of the game was when Donovan Mitchell got his fourth foul and was replaced by Levitch. Not because of Mitchell's absence so much as Levitch's decision to try and thug Grayson Allen. Before the inbounds after the foul, a ref stopped play and told him to keep his hands off Allen. Almost right away, Allen drives and is fouled by Levitch, who followed the foul by grabbing at Allen long after the whistle. Grayson responded by throwing his hands in the air and walking away. The entire sequence seemed to energize the Duke team -- it was right in front of the team bench. Moments later Levitch fouled Grayson on a 3, then Pitino pulled him.

The entire sequence reminds me of Patrick Davidson against Wake in 2005. K, unhappy with his team's effort and energy, starts Davidson (and walk-on Patrick Johnson) against a top 10 Wake team. Davidson is guarding Chris Paul so aggressively that he fouls him twice in 40 seconds ... then he comes out of the game. The difference is that Davidson's hyper-aggression ignited the Duke team (that not only went on to beat the Deacs, but to finish the season strong). Levitch's display also ignited Duke.

Dan Bonner on the ACC Network theorized as it was happening that Levitch was intentionally trying to provoke Allen into a response. I think that's true. How Grayson -- and the Duke team responded -- I think that's the turning point in that game.

killerleft
03-10-2017, 12:36 PM
Would that be fr, so, Jr or Sr Johnny? ;)

Only freshman Johnny would give these guys a ghost of a chance in a game to 21. JD played defense. And... he would kill them softly.

pfrduke
03-10-2017, 12:44 PM
How Grayson -- and the Duke team responded -- I think that's the turning point in that game.

Those free throws were so clutch. It was really, really loud in the arena - the Duke fans were ticked off from Levitch's play, the Louisville fans were ticked off about the foul call (and about Grayson in general), so the whole arena was hot. And Grayson just calmly went swish, swish, swish.

Spanarkel
03-10-2017, 12:51 PM
I rewatched the Louisville game early this morning and I thought I'd add rwo things to this thread:

(1) Our zone was not very good ... but it worked because of Louisville's response to it -- they never really attacked it ... instead, they worked things around and looked for the easy 3-point shot. And they DID get plenty of open 3s. They were 0-8 from three against the zone and only one (forced by the shot clock) was a bad shot. They just missed -- it reminded me of the NC State at Dujke game -- they gave us a ton of open 3s down the stretch ... we just missed them all.

(2) By the way, Snyder's shot with 12 seconds left -- when he tried to draw a foul -- was not a 3. He was well inside the line ... if they HAD called the foul (it wasn't a foul, but not putting anything past these refs), they would have reviewed the shot and seen that it was clearly a two-shot foul and not a three.

(3) David Levitch = Patrick Davidson.

The turning point of the game was when Donovan Mitchell got his fourth foul and was replaced by Levitch. Not because of Mitchell's absence so much as Levitch's decision to try and thug Grayson Allen. Before the inbounds after the foul, a ref stopped play and told him to keep his hands off Allen. Almost right away, Allen drives and is fouled by Levitch, who followed the foul by grabbing at Allen long after the whistle. Grayson responded by throwing his hands in the air and walking away. The entire sequence seemed to energize the Duke team -- it was right in front of the team bench. Moments later Levitch fouled Grayson on a 3, then Pitino pulled him.

The entire sequence reminds me of Patrick Davidson against Wake in 2005. K, unhappy with his team's effort and energy, starts Davidson (and walk-on Patrick Johnson) against a top 10 Wake team. Davidson is guarding Chris Paul so aggressively that he fouls him twice in 40 seconds ... then he comes out of the game. The difference is that Davidson's hyper-aggression ignited the Duke team (that not only went on to beat the Deacs, but to finish the season strong). Levitch's display also ignited Duke.

Dan Bonner on the ACC Network theorized as it was happening that Levitch was intentionally trying to provoke Allen into a response. I think that's true. How Grayson -- and the Duke team responded -- I think that's the turning point in that game.


I like Dan Bonner as a commentator, but really, why would Pitino choose Levitch, who appears to have followed the Tyler Lewis program of body sculpting, to "rough up" Grayson? Levitch looked like a high schooler out there? Levitch is no Jungle Jim Loscutoff.

If what Levitch did in defending Grayson's three pointer is truly a foul, then there should be hundreds of fouls called each game. I'm a diehard Duke fan, but it really looked like incidental contact to me. Let's go, Duke!

killerleft
03-10-2017, 12:54 PM
I attended the game, my first ever ACC Tournament game, and I have a revisionist history take on what took place.

During the Louisville player intros, the in-house video gurus included footage of the Greatest, Muhammad Ali of Louisville, including his triumphant victory over George Foreman in the Rumble in the Jungle. Even casual boxing fans know that Ali laid on the ropes inviting Foreman to wail away, suspecting that he'd punch himself out and be ripe for the taking. It worked, and "rope-a-dope" entered the popular lexicon.

When it looked like Duke was playing poor defense, that was K rope-a-doping. Louisville got so used to scoring lay-ups that they forget how to shoot jumpers. K waited and waited and sprung the zone at precisely the right time..and Louisville shot themselves out of it. The zone was great free throw defense indeed.

Back to reality.

As Chard said, this is an amazing press conference. K really walks a fine and proud line sticking up for Grayson and the program without coming off like a defensive [insert pejorative]. I encourage everyone to watch.





It was not obvious in the building that the 3 where Levitch fouled Grayson was so controversial...with many considering it next in a line of cheap flops. I have now seen 2 post-game stories (Dana O'Neil and Pat Forde) where it was the key piece of evidence of the "Bad Boy Grayson is back and Duke embraces he and the hate". I must say, being there and watching him nail those 3 FTs was an amazing experience.

This being my first experience at this tournament and being a native NYer, I can't compare it to the past but I will say it felt full and rocking when it counted in the "4th quarter". The Heel faithful were the dominant fanbase which gave our game incredible extra juice.

This team continues to get better. We have been through wars and we seem to be feeding off it rather than letting it get us. When it comes to the whole "rest" debate, in which I side on the "more games the better" side, I have always felt that only one team gets to win the National Championship and I love watching us play so much, especially in heavyweight fights, that I am always greedy for more. Tomorrow is a gift...another game with Amile, Matt, Jayson, Grayson, Luke...this team, that will never exist again. A Duke/Carolina game in NYC - that is an incredible thing for the local alumni who don't get to see it very often.
This team is tough as nails.

9F! 9F! 9F!

First, you need to be very loud tonight. Superb that you get to see such a great rivalry game in NYC!

Second, the part I bolded is the ONLY way to approach the ACC Tournament. Go Duke!

COYS
03-10-2017, 01:07 PM
I like Dan Bonner as a commentator, but really, why would Pitino choose Levitch, who appears to have followed the Tyler Lewis program of body sculpting, to "rough up" Grayson? Levitch looked like a high schooler out there? Levitch is no Jungle Jim Loscutoff.

If what Levitch did in defending Grayson's three pointer is truly a foul, then there should be hundreds of fouls called each game. I'm a diehard Duke fan, but it really looked like incidental contact to me. Let's go, Duke!

Maybe Pitino was banking on Levitch looking sympathetic in the event of an altercation with Grayson =). It wouldn't take much for Grayson to knock him over.

The foul call on the three pointer reminded me of the "persistent fouling" yellow card handed out by refs in soccer. Levitch had been a little rough and physical with Grayson more than a few times in a tiny period of time. It appeared the ref even talked to him about it. ANY physical contact with Grayson was going to be called . . . especially since the foul came right after the ref had a conversation with Levitch about it. It did seem to be minimal contact, but there was definitely contact, and it seemed to come after the shot when players that are trying to be a little extra physical often try to get away with a little extra.

devildeac
03-10-2017, 01:31 PM
Maybe Pitino was banking on Levitch looking sympathetic in the event of an altercation with Grayson =). It wouldn't take much for Grayson to knock him over.

The foul call on the three pointer reminded me of the "persistent fouling" yellow card handed out by refs in soccer. Levitch had been a little rough and physical with Grayson more than a few times in a tiny period of time. It appeared the ref even talked to him about it. ANY physical contact with Grayson was going to be called . . . especially since the foul came right after the ref had a conversation with Levitch about it. It did seem to be minimal contact, but there was definitely contact, and it seemed to come after the shot when players that are trying to be a little extra physical often try to get away with a little extra.

And, no "head snap." :rolleyes:

BandAlum83
03-10-2017, 01:44 PM
I like Dan Bonner as a commentator, but really, why would Pitino choose Levitch, who appears to have followed the Tyler Lewis program of body sculpting, to "rough up" Grayson? Levitch looked like a high schooler out there? Levitch is no Jungle Jim Loscutoff.

If what Levitch did in defending Grayson's three pointer is truly a foul, then there should be hundreds of fouls called each game. I'm a diehard Duke fan, but it really looked like incidental contact to me. Let's go, Duke!

The announcers on the ACC Network Broadcast were Tim Brando and Mike Gminski. Was Dan Bonner on radio, or internet?

Jeffrey
03-10-2017, 01:54 PM
(1) Our zone was not very good ... but it worked because of Louisville's response to it -- they never really attacked it ... instead, they worked things around and looked for the easy 3-point shot.

Which made the decision to switch to zone the game changer. Excellent in-game coaching decision!

Hauerwas
03-10-2017, 02:36 PM
Did anyone else notice Pitino's lack of acknowledgement post-game handshake with K? He just stuck out a wet fish handshake and walked right past K. Maybe I'm reading more into it but it seemed to lack class. Be a man Ricky, you lost.

OldPhiKap
03-10-2017, 02:40 PM
Did anyone else notice Pitino's lack of acknowledgement post-game handshake with K? He just stuck out a wet fish handshake and walked right past K. Maybe I'm reading more into it but it seemed to lack class. Be a man Ricky, you lost.

K said after the game that he and Rick were close friends. So I don't think the immediate post-game interaction indicates anything improper.

When we lose, K is not known for hanging around and talking with the opposing coach.

flyingdutchdevil
03-10-2017, 02:50 PM
Did anyone else notice Pitino's lack of acknowledgement post-game handshake with K? He just stuck out a wet fish handshake and walked right past K. Maybe I'm reading more into it but it seemed to lack class. Be a man Ricky, you lost.

Yeah. Don't read into this.

I know many others disagree, but I really like Pitino as a coach (not necessarily as a person).

I think honestly think he is the best Xs & Os guy in the ACC and he does it without top 10 recruits year in and year out. Coach K is a better motivator and recruiter, but credit Pitino for his in-game coaching.

I love Duke-Louisville games more than any other not named Duke-UNC. It's like watching an intense chess match between the two masters.

Spanarkel
03-10-2017, 03:10 PM
The announcers on the ACC Network Broadcast were Tim Brando and Mike Gminski. Was Dan Bonner on radio, or internet?

Olympic Fan(post no. 174 on this thread)referenced "Dan Bonner on the ACC Network." I watched on the ACC live stream without sound.